Double numbers

Started by paparcc, June 08, 2017, 04:33:57 PM

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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Double-numbers are not allowed to be for the same side of the ball, let alone for the same position.

The rules state that double-numbers have to be players on offense and then defense... not both on offense or both on defense. The problems on the field usually occur when: special teams plays when there is always a mix; when someone isn't paying attention and a player who can, or is asked, play multiple positions is thrown into a play.

Two things I think would solve the problem:

- If you look at a roster, it may be surprising how many times there are numbers NOT used. So there might be a double 15s on a team, but then you might notice no one wears, say, 18. I can't tell you how many times I have looked at a roster and seen double-numbers and numbers not used at all. That is unnecessary. I get there are those who want "their" number, but welcome to reality... not everyone can have their number (even in the pros). Fill in all the slots first.

- Not everyone needs a damn uniform! Technically 100 individuals could have uniforms on a team without doubling up. I get that football is an enrollment opportunity, but I fail to understand why more than 100 individuals have to be suited up for a game. I am a former student-athlete and even experienced being cut from a team. If the coaching staff doesn't feel I have earned the chance to suit-up for a game... so be it. I now have a goal to be better and earn that opportunity. The idea we need 120, 130, etc. players suited up on the sideline is ridiculous. Maybe the sport wants to allow more than 100 in uniform - again that's insane in my mind (100 players is  4 1/2 full teams of offense and defense!) - then fill in all the numbers and use the doubles for players that have the least likely chance to get in.

Now, I get that the problem comes on a week-to-week basis. This could result in some players changing numbers as the team ebbs and flows through the season and deals with injuries, so this isn't a perfect idea... but it is a far better idea than just throwing around double-numbers willy-nilly. I think double-numbers do a huge disservice to the fans and I think even for the broadcasters and other game management, no matter how "used to it" they are. I am very used to it... but that doesn't mean people should shrug their shoulders at the issue. Same with bad colored uniforms and illegal numbers... it isn't something to just shrug one's shoulders to.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

AO

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 01:04:19 PM
- Not everyone needs a damn uniform! Technically 100 individuals could have uniforms on a team without doubling up. I get that football is an enrollment opportunity, but I fail to understand why more than 100 individuals have to be suited up for a game. I am a former student-athlete and even experienced being cut from a team. If the coaching staff doesn't feel I have earned the chance to suit-up for a game... so be it. I now have a goal to be better and earn that opportunity. The idea we need 120, 130, etc. players suited up on the sideline is ridiculous. Maybe the sport wants to allow more than 100 in uniform - again that's insane in my mind (100 players is  4 1/2 full teams of offense and defense!) - then fill in all the numbers and use the doubles for players that have the least likely chance to get in.
Have you ever come up to St. John's before?  Watching 200 players running onto the field is a pretty cool sight.  I took a short little video of it 2 years ago.  https://twitter.com/AOMinnesota/status/647835971678007296

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I am fully aware of what 200 players running onto a field looks like. I have seen it at many places... but even D1 has rules on how many are on the sidelines. I get that D1 doesn't have to worry about enrollment... but at some point this becomes a joke and at some point we are doing a disservice for the students. I have been cut. It happens. Why do you need 9 teams worth of offense and defense on the sideline for a game? Even in a blow out, not everyone is getting in.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Bombers798891

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 01:04:19 PM

I fail to understand why more than 100 individuals have to be suited up for a game. I am a former student-athlete and even experienced being cut from a team. If the coaching staff doesn't feel I have earned the chance to suit-up for a game... so be it. At some point this becomes a joke and at some point we are doing a disservice for the students. I have been cut. It happens. Why do you need 9 teams worth of offense and defense on the sideline for a game? Even in a blow out, not everyone is getting in.

They don't have to or need to.

But since, as you alluded to, coaches decide who suits up for a game, and playing a sport is voluntary, then clearly, this what the coaches and players prefer. Their preference outweighs that of broadcasters.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I wasn't coming at it from only a broadcaster's point of view... there are others involved. Case in point, there are rules for what the uniforms are to look like despite what a coach or player would like. Not everything is based on the coach and player's personal preferences. This easily can be part of that as well.

You don't want to even know how much double-numbers has also screwed up things for compliance and eligibility of players. There is more involved with this than people realize... as many things in the NCAA end up being.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Bombers798891

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 04:30:22 PM
I wasn't coming at it from only a broadcaster's point of view... there are others involved. Case in point, there are rules for what the uniforms are to look like despite what a coach or player would like. Not everything is based on the coach and player's personal preferences. This easily can be part of that as well.

You don't want to even know how much double-numbers has also screwed up things for compliance and eligibility of players. There is more involved with this than people realize... as many things in the NCAA end up being.

No, but you raised the specific complaint of why teams suit up more than 100 players on game day. And since there is not an NCAA rule prohibiting it, then it clearly is a coach/player preference.

AO

#21
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
I am fully aware of what 200 players running onto a field looks like. I have seen it at many places.
What other teams are in the 190+ club?  Mount, Mary Hardin-Baylor and St. John's are the ones I could find with a quick search.

jknezek

Quote from: AO on June 21, 2017, 05:32:52 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
I am fully aware of what 200 players running onto a field looks like. I have seen it at many places.
What other teams are in the 190+ club, Mount, Mary Hardin-Baylor and St. John's are the ones I could find with a quick search.

I think Methodist had something like 140 first years report last year. Not sure how many upperclassmen they had. If you look in last year's Kickoff (if you can remember your password), it will tell you everyone's camp number.

AO

#23
Quote from: jknezek on June 21, 2017, 09:31:05 PM
Quote from: AO on June 21, 2017, 05:32:52 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
I am fully aware of what 200 players running onto a field looks like. I have seen it at many places.
What other teams are in the 190+ club, Mount, Mary Hardin-Baylor and St. John's are the ones I could find with a quick search.

I think Methodist had something like 140 first years report last year. Not sure how many upperclassmen they had. If you look in last year's Kickoff (if you can remember your password), it will tell you everyone's camp number.
They had 224 in 2015, 196 last year.

FCGrizzliesGrad

I think a few places have a JV team don't they? If more schools did that then more kids could get playing time and not have 150 players on the sideline. Kids who would otherwise be stuck as a 5th string and never play can get some experience.
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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on June 22, 2017, 03:40:42 AM
I think a few places have a JV team don't they? If more schools did that then more kids could get playing time and not have 150 players on the sideline. Kids who would otherwise be stuck as a 5th string and never play can get some experience.

Fair point to be sure.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: AO on June 21, 2017, 05:32:52 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
I am fully aware of what 200 players running onto a field looks like. I have seen it at many places.
What other teams are in the 190+ club?  Mount, Mary Hardin-Baylor and St. John's are the ones I could find with a quick search.

I'm not restricting myself to DIII only. I have been covered all sports for much of my adult life. From high school to the pros (which obviously, doesn't have 200 person rosters). So, I have been on the sideline or in the booth for a lot of different sports and seen a lot of things like 200+ rosters on the sideline. Hell, my introduction to college lacrosse was standing next to Salisbury's men's squad that easily was 100+ at an AWAY game!!!
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

sigma one

#27
In the NCAC there are at least three teams, and some years a fourth, with roster sizes of more than 100.  On a regular basis DePauw, Wabash, and Wittenberg.  And Allegheny has sometimes had that many.  I recall a conversation I had with a Wabash senior some years ago.  He had never played a single down in an intercollegiate game.  He told me he was having a great experience, had made a ton of friends through the team, and while he wished for more productive career, he was satisfied to be on the team.  One thing that kept him around was the chance to dress for games five times a year.  He got a kick out of pre-game warmups and being on the sideline close to the action.  He told me that he wanted to be Rudy; I don't think he ever got that chance.  DIII is supposed to be about the experience of the student-athlete; other considerations are secondary. 
      Although duplicate numbers can occasionally be confusing for fans, announcers--and probably officials--I favor everyone having the chance to dress.  If this means two number 3s, then deal with it. 
     I believe there are more teams in DIII with roster sizes over 100 than than most of us know. I do not favor cutting roster sizes only because there may be duplicate numbers.  Let's deal with the occasional inconvenience of being confused and appreciate that DIII is a place where everyone who wants to participate has a chance to wear a uniform on game days.

AO

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 22, 2017, 02:30:40 PM
Quote from: AO on June 21, 2017, 05:32:52 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 21, 2017, 03:52:16 PM
I am fully aware of what 200 players running onto a field looks like. I have seen it at many places.
What other teams are in the 190+ club?  Mount, Mary Hardin-Baylor and St. John's are the ones I could find with a quick search.

I'm not restricting myself to DIII only. I have been covered all sports for much of my adult life. From high school to the pros (which obviously, doesn't have 200 person rosters). So, I have been on the sideline or in the booth for a lot of different sports and seen a lot of things like 200+ rosters on the sideline. Hell, my introduction to college lacrosse was standing next to Salisbury's men's squad that easily was 100+ at an AWAY game!!!
Have you been going to lots of Bo-Taoshi matches?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2OfCkCJg2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAZ9LVhaD3M    :)

Jonny Utah

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on June 22, 2017, 03:40:42 AM
I think a few places have a JV team don't they? If more schools did that then more kids could get playing time and not have 150 players on the sideline. Kids who would otherwise be stuck as a 5th string and never play can get some experience.

I think many schools do both.  Bombers would know better than I, but when I attended Ithaca College in the 1990s, there was a JV team comprised of about 50 freshman and 5-10 upperclassmen who were either first year players, or did not make the varsity after their second year and were told by coaches they were welcome to stay on and keep trying (often because of injuries).  The 50-60 JV players did not suit up for any varsity games, and players were not really called up either.  The varsity kept about a 70-80 man roster limit if I remember correctly, and would travel about 80% of that number (saving hotel and travel costs).  Those who were not on the "travel team" were welcome to go to away games on their own and dress, and many of these players might be on special teams so they actually did play.

Anyway, at some point after I graduated, I noticed that Ithaca would be dressing 100+ players during home games, and I assumed these were JV players.  Not sure if this decision was made to attract more students by "promising" them a spot on the varsity as freshman or if they just felt it wasn't too much of a distraction to dress that many players and figured why not.

Jknezek kind of hits the nail on the head with his first assessment of how schools help their own budgets by having more football players, not less.