FB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:06:06 AM

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matblake

Knowing really nothing about  Adrian (except for its location and team name :) ) is it a school that the community supports? For example, Wheaton has a lot of alums that settle in Wheaton, IL itself therefore the college gets some support from the community.  Yes, it technically also would be considered alumni support, but the support also comes from the community.  I suspect that Hope is similar in this regard.  Any other MIAA schools in the same boat?

Flea

Quote from: dc_has_been on August 09, 2006, 03:44:16 PM
Has there ever been any talk about Calvin ever fielding a football team? 

Quote from: Grand Rapids Press

"It isn't that we're anti-football, but when you have one specific sport leading the way, your other sports are short-changed," said Dr. Marv Zuidema, who serves as the co-athletic director at Calvin while awaiting his approaching retirement.

Co-athletic director Kevin Vande Streek, who will soon become the Knights' official athletic director once Zuidema retires, says colleges that have begun football programs in the recent past have done so to improve enrollments.

According to Calvin president Dr. Gaylen Byker, there will probably never be football played at the school.

Unfortunately, we'll never know how well Calvin would compete in football, since it appears the school will never play football.



Two fo the three quoted men are no longer in those positions.  I wonder what the current men's AD, Dr. Jim Timmer Jr., would say about it today?  He spent a few years at a D3 football school, Baldwin-Wallace.

formerd3db

Re: the Calvin "non" football issue - I'll put in my "2 cents worth".  Believe me, $, student enrollment/recruitment and a field/stadium are not the issues, despite what those from Calvin quoted in the article would have you believe.  Also, as has been mentioned (and particularly in the article quoted), there are a lot of "feeder" Christian high schools that would provide excellent football student-athletes to Calvin.  The truth of the matter is that there are some (many) people at Calvin (i.e. alumni included) who simply do not want football for a variety of other reasons which I won't go into.  I respect their decision, although I personally don't agree with it; certainly as others have said, Calvin would be a great and positive addition to MIAA football if they ever decided to field a team.  However, obviously, that is not going to happen in the forseeable future and I'm not going to "hold my breath" waiting/wondering about it!  :)D.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Stinger

Fortunately, K isn't Macalester. Kzoo will never consider dropping football. K does have a rich football tradition (see one Ralph Young) allbeit it has been a long time since they have won the MIAA.    Numbers, however are a problem. Coach Brooks is going to have to figure out how to get guys in. The past few years K has been down to 30-40 players as the season progresses. That's nuts. You can bet that K will be competitive in every game. What they dont have in numbers and talent, they make up for with tenacity.

I have a feeling things will get better.
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wlcalum

#484
It's been a fast summer, don't you agree.

LOTS of freshmen around campus, some will be a great help to our young team. We return a good core of players. Looking forward to a solid (better than last year) running game and the maturation of our young QB. Our D has to fill three huge holes as does the O, but there is a lot of talent left from last year. We will see how the preseason turns out against Valpo and Concordia. Should we give those teams a tussle you may want to watch out?

The MIAA needs to put a bit of pressure on Calvin to field a football team. Bringing them in as WLC is leaving would solidify the AQ for the MIAA, Tri State keeps the AQ going but adding Calvin cannot be bad. The MIAA is a great conference and I am proud to say we belong(ed). Calvin could inprove an already great show. IMO Kzoo will come around very soon too rich a tradition to let it fall by the wayside.

Congrats to all the pre season all americans - may they all have great year and play with a professional attitude. I hate to see DIII players show boating as if they were in the pros!!

Grutte Dirk

Quote from: wlcalum on August 13, 2006, 12:55:49 AM

The MIAA needs to put a bit of pressure on Calvin to field a football team.

I'd like to see more MIAA schools field competative teams in "minor" sports before they start pressuring Calvin to add football.
Bûter, brea en griene tsiis; wa't dat net sizze kin, is gjin oprjochte Fries.

WLCALUM83

to:  wlcalum

This is WLCALUM83. If you need to correct me on anything, just go ahead (I don't know if you've seen my prediction for this year's Warrior squad). If you didn't I said a .500 season overall would be a major step forward.

formerd3db

Quote from: Bilk on August 13, 2006, 04:33:54 PM
Quote from: wlcalum on August 13, 2006, 12:55:49 AM

The MIAA needs to put a bit of pressure on Calvin to field a football team.

I'd like to see more MIAA schools field competative teams in "minor" sports before they start pressuring Calvin to add football.

Well, Bilk, let's see.  Just what do you consider as "minor" sports and competative in the league?  Seems to me that those situations already exist in both men's and women's sports i.e. women's basketball and softball (Hope, Alma, Calvin and  now Olivet coming on strong); swimming (Hope, while not rivaling Kenyon regarding the team accomplishments on a national level, they always have both men's and women's All-American swimmers and divers), tennis (Hope, Kazoo); soccer is always competative for the NCAA berth (Kazoo, Hope, Calvin and Alma having been in the mix in recent years); track and cross-country is always competative at the various MIAA schools with All-Americans; and golf has been strong at several including Adrian, Hope, Olivet; baseball has been very strong in the past two decades (Alma, Hope, Albion, Calvin and now Adrian).  Not to mention the "minor" sports like hockey (Calvin, Hope) and lacrosse coming on strong (Calvin this year, Hope improving from past years and Adrian making it a varsity sport next year).

I can see your point, yet, it seems to me these other sports have been very competative (and some on a national level - I didn't include the two women's national championships in basketball or the two in men's with the two runner- up positions in the latter either).  Bottom line is that it would not be a problem if Calvin added football regardless of what happens in the other sports (again, that's not going to happen unfortunately) - and wouldn't you agree that even if they did, the "minor" sports can still be encouraged and supported to be "competative"?  Just MO. ;)
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Grutte Dirk

Quote from: Bilk on August 13, 2006, 04:33:54 PM

I'd like to see more MIAA schools field competitive teams in "minor" sports before they start pressuring Calvin to add football.

formerd3, nice post.

IMO, MIAA major sports:
- football
- women's basketball
- men's basketball
- women's volleyball

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

.... softball (Hope, Alma, Calvin and now Olivet coming on strong);

Only four teams, and a couple of those listed are sliding quick.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

swimming (Hope, while not rivaling Kenyon regarding the team accomplishments on a national level, they always have both men's and women's All-American swimmers and divers)

You're correct .... it's the toughest sport in the MIAA.  Hope, Calvin and Ka'zoo have all had teams in the top-10 at the NCAA's in the same season.  But no school has a NCAA legal pool.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

tennis (Hope, Kazoo)

Only two teams trading at the top spot.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

soccer is always competitive for the NCAA berth (Kazoo, Hope, Calvin and Alma having been in the mix in recent years)

Agreed, men's and women's soccer is a major sport at many schools.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

track .... is always competitive at the various MIAA schools with All-Americans

In 2006 the Calvin women (NCAA 5th in 2006) traveled to Angola for a double duel vs. Tri-State and Adrian to compete against TWO women fromm Adrian, none from Tri-State.  Calvin have strong men's and women's team (six coaches), Albion has a strong men's team (two coaches) and Hope's four coaches are great, but look at their facility.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

.... cross-country is always competitive at the various MIAA schools with All-Americans

Calvin dominates with both teams.  The coaches made a rule limiting how many athletes from one school can receive all-MIAA.  This results in many non-all-MIAA Calvin athletes beating all-MIAA athletes every fall.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

golf has been strong at several including Adrian, Hope, Olivet

Some schools bearly field a scoring team.  Where's the top-to-bottom competativness?

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

baseball has been very strong in the past two decades (Alma, Hope, Albion, Calvin and now Adrian)

Good depth, but they do little in the NCAA's.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

.... mention the "minor" sports like hockey (Calvin, Hope)

These club sports are great.

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

.... mention the "minor" sports like .... lacrosse coming on strong (Calvin this year, Hope improving from past years and Adrian making it a varsity sport next year)

see above

Quote from: formerd3db on August 13, 2006, 11:21:09 PM

Bottom line is that it would not be a problem if Calvin added football regardless of what happens in the other sports (again, that's not going to happen unfortunately) - and wouldn't you agree that even if they did, the "minor" sports can still be encouraged and supported to be "competitive"?  Just MO. ;)

I think it's important to look at how Calvin budgets it current sports. They have multiple assistant coaches for most sports.  Would football take coaches away from other sports?

Also, the MIAA model for football does not seem to work.  Having faculty coaches limits who the school can hire and teaching limits the amount of time coaches can put into coaching and recruiting.  If it worked I think MIAA teams would perform better at the NCAA level.

It seems like many MIAA program throw away certain sports.  They have limited budgets and at times are coached by people who have never coached the a sport (they are a coach of a major sport and get the other job as a fill-in).  In that vein then football is a throw away sport at Calvin.

Is there any sport tough from top to bottom? 

Have all MIAA schools won a MIAA title in any single sport?
Bûter, brea en griene tsiis; wa't dat net sizze kin, is gjin oprjochte Fries.

79jaybird

From reading some of the notes in regards to Calvin and football, I understand both sides and respect both viewpoints.  I personally, would like to see Calvin at least strongly consider how a football team would benefit/change the school.
Football is not for everybody.  I had a roommate at Elmhurst one year that couldn't stand football.  He couldn't even tell you who the NFL Chicago team is!  That drove me crazy because football is such a big part of my life.
I think if Calvin were to get a football team,  the rivalry between Calvin and Hope would escalate into a good battle.  You could then develop a traveling trophy between the two.  Perhaps the Golden Anchor??? :o
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matblake

I too think that football at Calvin would be an interesting scenario.  Let's face it though, having a football program takes commitment to that program, and at least from the above article it doesn't seem that Calvin would have that commitment.  Add on that Calvin hasn't had a football team and there is no tradition for football.  Then there is the money factor, it is expensive to field a team.  Although it would enhance the MIAA I think, it just isn't going to happen.

bulldogalum

I don't buy this cost talk.  I think this is the first time I've ever heard it raised in regards to a football program.  At most schools, football is the biggest money maker.  True, there are some significant startup costs, but a football program at Calvin, if done properly (and it would be unlike Calvin if they chose not to do it right) would pay for itself in a very short amount of time.  It's a matter of commitment, and a question of whether Calvin would want to commit itself to running a football program.

Pat Coleman

It's a money maker if you need to bring in tuition-paying students. It isn't clear that Calvin feels it needs to do that.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

formerd3db

Thanks Bilk.  You do have some good points. As far as the minor sports all being competitive, that doesn't happen in the major ones so why would we expect it to happen there (besides, this is no different than any other DIII conference in regards to all the sports - also, although I brought it up, we can exclude the "national" basis and perhaps better confine this to just the "league level" for purposes of this discussion.

On other aspects, I wasn't going to do this and rather "leave this lay as is", however, since others have continued the discussion re: Calvin football, at the risk of boring some people (or "beating a dead horse" to use that old cliche), I'd like to make some additional comment.

First, I agree with bulldogalum.  Yes, it costs $ to start up a collegiate program, however, it is not out of the reach whatsoever for Calvin to do it - again $ there is just not the problem.  Pat has hit it right on the head about the main reason why (in addition to my comments about some of the Calvin "higher-ups" including alumni and Jaybird's as to some people just not liking football- PERIOD).  There are many written articles on the cost of starting up collegiate football programs in the last five years or so as many colleges and universities (including some of the larger institutions at DII or DIAA levels) and it can be done with about $250,000 without skimping.  As far as a field, Calvin certainly has the $ (i.e. it could be easily raised) if they wanted an on-campus stadium, however, that isn't absolutely necessary if one wanted to "save some $" as there are many football facilities within a short drive from their campus which I have no doubt some arrangements could be made (at least for the first few start up years).  Again, if schools like Olivet and Adrian can raise the $ as they have (and especially Olivet), no way that Calvin can't do it.

As far as your coaching statements, not all the MIAA schools have the coaching "set-up" as you relate.  Alma was one of the first to go with non-teaching coaching positions in football and while not everyone agrees with that philosophy, it seems to work for them, and quite successfully in the past 10 years as can be seen.  I'm not so sure that is the way to go for a variety of reasons (some of which includes non-athletic reasons related to mentoring a student-athlete) and which is why Hope will never go that route.

At any rate, please allow me to once again relate that this is not intended as a negative in any way towards our Calvin friends, posters/supporters (fans) here - while I don't agree with the school's decision, I respect it and it is their right to choose that way.  But again, like Pat says, they don't see the need to increase enrollment and certainly not via a football program.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

79jaybird

formerd3db-- How was your trip up north?  Hopefully, you were able to get the R&R  that keeps us going.  I am going to pick up the radio equipment today from Elmhurst, which is one of the first signs that football is approaching! ;D
VOICE OF THE BLUEJAYS '01-'10
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS 1978 1980 2012
CCIW BASKETBALL CHAMPIONS 2001
2022 BASKETBALL NATIONAL RUNNER UP
2018 CCIW PICK EM'S CHAMPION