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Division III football (Post Patterns) => General football => Topic started by: Pat Coleman on September 22, 2005, 03:16:50 PM

Title: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 22, 2005, 03:16:50 PM
Hmm, well, I appear to have deleted the Around the Nation board, like a moron. Probably in my attempts to change the poll on top.

Anywho... we were talking about ... uhm, Around the Nation.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 22, 2005, 03:23:30 PM
I am very disappointed, as I had written (shocking, I know) a long post this morning, covering last week and this.

Luckily, I think the board so far was mostly me, not too much of other people's responses that we'll be missing.

Hate that we can't recover it though.

Pat, you will be smited. Mucho.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 24, 2005, 08:28:15 PM
Um, is this where we apologize for jinxing Salisbury?

We did lose one significant thing when Pat deleted the board. Wildcat's road trip horror story. Do you still have it in your sent mail file?

Got nice ONU feedback. I wonder about their appeal. Anyway...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: matblake on September 30, 2005, 01:25:00 PM
That was a very comprehensive around the Nation.  Very interesting to see how the different conferences match up.  Personally I rely on ATN and ATR to keep me up to date on areas other than the North Region since I have no experience with any of the other regions other than lurking on the MIAC board a couple of years ago. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: SaintsFAN on September 30, 2005, 02:17:46 PM
I liked this week's ATN.  Lots of useful information in there about many teams....

One thing sticks out....Rockford College putting up 82 vs. Principia......they put up a 70 spot on them last year.  My question:  Is there bad blood between Rockford and Principia....I mean you have to try to put up 82 points. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ric on September 30, 2005, 02:36:47 PM
K-Mack ... nice job with the Around the Nation, very nice.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 30, 2005, 02:38:05 PM
Considering Rockford used 10 rushers and 3 QBs, I just think it was the case of the backups getting some time in and Principia having no depth at all (32 players, I think). Principa has given up 80, 66, and 82, and then lost to Trinity Bible as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 30, 2005, 11:55:02 PM
Look for us at UW-Whitewater tomorrow afternoon and at North Central tomorrow night, although we'll be broadcasting that game and will be essentially tied to the press box.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on October 01, 2005, 01:26:18 AM
Looking at the Getting Serioius story on the front page, you lowered Capitol to 23rd and moved Mount Union to #1. A little prognostication? ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 01, 2005, 01:32:14 AM
Hmm, little dyslexic. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on October 01, 2005, 01:35:36 AM
WOW!! You're fast and up late too!!! Have fun tomorrow.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 01, 2005, 02:03:41 AM
Pat, like rust, never sleeps.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 01, 2005, 02:12:54 AM
Also like fisk. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on October 01, 2005, 09:32:16 AM
Keith,

  What is it going to take to get Hobart back into your voting consideration?  I noticed Hopkins on that list.  If H beats Rochester by more than 3 do they get a vote?  I know that's a game that no one really likes to play, but I am making the point that the two are pretty similar, if Hobart isn't better. 

  The main reason I ask is that, barring something crazy, Hobart probably won't lose a game going into Nov. 5th with Union, but won't get much recognition or respect in the meantime b/c the LL doesn't have too many recognized programs. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 02, 2005, 07:11:57 PM
 Well, first, Hobart and Union are both in the group I look at each week, especially on a week like this one when you have to blow up quite a bit of the top 25 and look at everyone honestly and then reconstruct it.

Second, I think comparison is a game we have to play in Division III, because we can't watch games on TV or see highlights, and there are just too many games that all kick off at the same time for any one person to see a whole lot of them.

Personally, I weight performance against good teams very heavily. Sometimes a team can impress in a loss to a good team, and lose a little ground (make you wonder if you were ranking them too high) with a poor game or by struggling against an OK or bad team.

Of course, this all fluctuates all season ... the teams that are supposed to be OK or bad or good in Week 2 sometimes aren't by Week 7. So as a voter, you constantly have to re-evaluate, or you could end up being guilty of just going by records, which doesn't always tell you a lot.

In Hobart's case, giving up 34/48 and appearing to struggle against RPI looks better when they come back this week and play good defense again (three non-RPI games, 7 points allowed), and if RPI wins a couple more, we start looking at that as an impressive win, and not an escape. But the same way, F&M looked like a good win at the beginning of the year, and now you can't tell as much because they're 2-2 ... Rochester of course won't work as a comparison for a while because it's Johns Hopkins first game and one of Hobart's last. ... It is tough for a team to play a lot of "not well-respected" opponents as you put it, but if their performance against them is consistent, as they win, allowing for maybe one game where a good team struggles/escapes a close call, they'll usually gain ground in the poll.

I think you can and should compare common opponents, and if possible common opponents from leagues. As far as the LL and CC, their teams are right around the same place as far as consideration for my vote, anyway. I have voted for teams from both leagues most weeks.

I guess I should remember to put that disclaimer that if your team isn't mentioned in the 26-35 group, it could be because they got a top 25 vote.

And of course one of the great things about D3 is that the polls give you an idea of who is how strong, but each league champ (for the most part) gets to get in the playoffs and show what they can do regardless of their ranking.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on October 02, 2005, 07:20:49 PM
That is an excellent response.  I kind of wasn't expecting to get one at all.  I don't want to compare Hobart's defense to St. John's, for example, but I was surprised to see a totally negative outlook on Hobart's D after the RPI game.  I know you guys do a great job, with little support/resources, covering the nation.  I am obviously biased, but I looked at two bad quarters and thought it was more due to a pretty good RPI team having some great success against an above average defense.  I guess a couple of more games will mean a lot more.  Hobart's next game is against Coast Guard and I think CGA's offense plays right into the Hobart D's sweet spot so there may be some more good D stats after next week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 02, 2005, 10:26:55 PM
Quote from: ktroutvon on October 02, 2005, 07:20:49 PM
That is an excellent response.  I kind of wasn't expecting to get one at all. 

We surprise you every now and again, eh?

I don't have a problem discussing, explaining or articulating most of the issues in Division III, as I understand them, so readers should not hesitate to ask. Just about everything is fair game.

As far as polls, they are inexact sciences. Different people pick up on different things, or vote differently, and of course the nature of football involves surprises from time to time.

If one person could master it all, we wouldn't need 25 voters, would we?

Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 06, 2005, 04:29:50 PM
Folks,
another week in the bag. That thing takes forever to finish up!

It looks like no one ever posts here, but I think we lost about 9 pages in a mysterious deleting mishap.

Anyway, I've been getting a lot of top 25 e-mail, and I addressed it in the column this week. Hopefully that works, or starts a conversation. Anyone with specific questions, beefs or observations, shoot ...

I'll be back later in the week or early next week to share some e-mail. I haven't quite been able to sit down with all of it, just getting bits here and there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on October 06, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
K-Mack,
What are your thoughts on Utica College being 3-1 and in the top half of the Empire 8?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 06, 2005, 04:38:47 PM
It still may be too early to think about playoffs. Wow! How can you specualte who is going to go from the SCAC, or the NCAC, and if the runner ups deserve a "C" or not?

I guess you could start with the teams you KNOW aren't going and work your way from there.  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 06, 2005, 04:59:25 PM
The key word is "speculate."

Some of the brackets we filled out (assuming you're referring to the part in the column) just said "CCIW #1, CCIW #2, IIAC champ," and others said "Bridgewater, Mount Union, Linfield" ... And the SCAC was very interesting, because if it's Trinity, that means someone from Texas probably plays them in the first round, or do we send a flight there. If Huntingdon makes it, they've already played ... but if it's DePauw, they can go in that north-ish bracket.

It's fun but crazy unsolved at this point.

As for Utica, 3-1 is definitely curious. The teams they've beaten are a combined 1-9. Normally the win over Springfield would be an eye-opener, but when it sits next to a 41-10 loss to RPI ... I'm afraid the Pioneers still have a lot to prove.

Since they have four road games in five weeks, with a home date with Ithaca sandwiched in between ... that won't leave any doubt about good Utica really is.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 07, 2005, 12:14:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 06, 2005, 04:59:25 PM
... And the SCAC was very interesting, because if it's Trinity, that means someone from Texas probably plays them in the first round, or do we send a flight there. If Huntingdon makes it, they've already played ... but if it's DePauw, they can go in that north-ish bracket.

If Trinity makes it, it will mean they were undefeated.  DePauw will have a leg up on the tiebreaker (opponents' record) if both go 8-1, 5-0 SCAC.  I don't think an 8-1 Trinity gets a Pool C bid with a loss to Huntingdon (unless HC makes the playoffs, which will be difficult even if they do go 9-0 (8-0 against D3 opponents)).  DePauw's chances to get a Pool C aren't the best given that nobody has ever mentioned "SCAC" and "Pool C" in the same sentence.   ;D  But even if both Trinity and DePauw get in, I don't think DPU gets matched up with Trinity, at least not in the first round.  It would be interesting, tho. 

So let's look at what I feel is the most likely scenario.  Trinity gets in, as do the ASC champ and the ASC runner-up.  The ASC winner gets a #1 seed.  If Trinity goes undefeated they should get a higher seed than a one-loss ASC team. You send the #2 ASC team to Trinity and fly in someone to play the ASC winner.  The winner of those two games play in the second round, and the NCAA does what it likes best, e.g. saves on airfares unless the ASC winner gets upset by a #8 seed.   Not likely. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 07, 2005, 12:39:34 AM
If DPU gets in they most certainly will be shifted to the North.

And Ron, with the expanded field, I could see the SCAC having a good shot at a "C" in many years. Those extra few slots really open things up a bit.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 07, 2005, 02:09:21 AM
Quote from: smedindy on October 07, 2005, 12:39:34 AM
If DPU gets in they most certainly will be shifted to the North.

And Ron, with the expanded field, I could see the SCAC having a good shot at a "C" in many years. Those extra few slots really open things up a bit.

You're right.  Not playing a tenth game could be a problem for either team this year, all other things being equal.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bob.Gregg on October 10, 2005, 01:01:01 PM
This might give away some clue to my age, but just listened to Paul Harvey News and was thrilled to hear about D-III Northwestern's Saturday doubleheader getting some national press.

Good day!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on October 10, 2005, 01:31:11 PM
Quote from: bobgregg on October 10, 2005, 01:01:01 PM
This might give away some clue to my age, but just listened to Paul Harvey News and was thrilled to hear about D-III Northwestern's Saturday doubleheader getting some national press.

Good day!

Heard that too. Funny thing was, in an unrelated bit a few spots later, he mentioned a story about Macalester(one of Northwestern's opponents) going to coed dorms.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 11, 2005, 11:24:22 AM
Northwestern was also in Chris Bermans top plays of the Weekend on ESPN.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Matt Barnhart (kid) on October 12, 2005, 01:25:17 AM
I've ranked the remaining undefeated Division III teams by their opponent's combined winning percentage.  I did not count the undefeated team's win in their opponent's record and winning percentage.


Pos.SchoolRecordOpp. Win%Opp. RecordScoring Off.Scoring Def.QoWI Rank
1#2 Mount Union5-0.71415-648.28.82nd
2#20 Coe5-0.68215-729.813.25th
3#4 Rowan4-0.66710-533.816.3t-14th
Bowdoin3-0.6674-216.014.0t-217th
5#7 UW-Whitewater5-0.64711-644.811.6t-7th
6Monmouth6-0.62118-1145.820.76th
7#12 Trinity (TX)5-0.60012-822.413.410th
Hobart5-0.60012-835.413.6t-3rd
9Alma*4-1.59113-934.225.8t-7th
10#19 Thiel5-0.56513-1038.015.69th
11#8 Ithaca5-0.54512-1044.224.2t-11th
12#5 St. John's6-0.51914-1341.310.8t-36th
13#24 Wesley6-0.47811-1242.813.8t-14th
14#9 Delaware Valley5-0.47610-1133.211.822nd
15Union5-0.45510-1230.413.8t-23rd
16#6 Occidental5-0.4387-939.015.2t-14th
17St. Olaf5-0.4299-1246.417.827th
Johns Hopkins5-0.4299-1219.26.8t-14th
19Wabash5-0.4099-1338.05.8t-39th
East Texas Baptist*4-1.4099-1318.023.4t-34th
21#1 Linfield4-0.3575-945.814.828th
22#10 UW-La Crosse*3-1.3536-1129.018.8t-74th
23#13 Concordia-Moorhead5-0.3337-1430.614.0t-56th
#3 Hardin-Simmons5-0.3336-1238.014.4t-47th
Trinity (CN)3-0.3332-446.32.0t-217th
26#16 North Central5-0.3187-1540.818.4t-14th
27Ferrum6-0.2697-1943.022.2t-56th
28Elmhurst5-0.2275-1735.212.8t-36th
29Colby3-0.1671-527.710.0t-217th

*lost to a non-Division III school
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 12, 2005, 01:50:38 AM
Quote from: eh ... just call me 'kid' on October 12, 2005, 01:25:17 AM

Pos.SchoolRecordOpp. Win%Opp. RecordScoring Off.Scoring Def.QoWI Rank
27Ferrum6-0.2697-1943.022.2t-56th

Don't let the Ferrites see this.  They'll be all over you for disrespecting the program, etc. etc. etc. ..   ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on October 12, 2005, 10:49:38 AM
Hobart is looking good by this analysis.  I'll take it for lack of other support.  Hopefully we'll take Union by a couple of TD's on Nov. 5th and get a decent east region seed for the playoffs. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on October 12, 2005, 04:50:21 PM
Kid:

Not to suggest painful computations, but you need to take your analysis one step further to opponents'-opponents winning percentage.

For example, maybe Team X beats a 3-1 Team Y.  But who has Team Y beat to get to 3-1 : Pee Wee Tech, Wassamatta U and Y-Even Bother A&M.  Suddenly that win over a 3-1 team doesn't look so impressive.

To put this in a concrete perspective, Monmouth has beaten 6 teams with a combined win percentage of .621.  Pretty impressive.

But do you know how many of their six victims have wins against teams with winning records?  One (Ripon over Lake Forest).  The rest have wins over MacMurray, Concordia (Ill.) and Macalester.  Not so impressive.

Suddenly Monmouth doesn't look like it's in the top 10 for SOS...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 12, 2005, 08:35:46 PM
Then it would be like the RPI...which isn't such a bad thing, really, especially if it angers up the big school punks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 14, 2005, 12:08:03 AM
Hey, Keith, don't beat yourself up for not getting ATN done on Wednesdays.  It takes the pressure off us regional guys to get ours done on Monday, don'tcha know  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2005, 10:05:03 AM
Yeah, except that's not a good thing for the thousands of readers each week, just us.

Plus, that makes me like a QB that shows up late for practice :)

Really, it's no big, I'm not stressing ... I work Sunday through 3 a.m. Tuesday non-stop, so I don't even start formulating things until Tuesday afternoon. And having an unreliable home computer has sent me back to the stone ages ... although I'm really realizing how much information is actually in these media guides.

But also not having it done means it hangs over me too. So if I want to watch a show or play PS2 after the baby goes to sleep Wednesday night, if it's not done, I feel all guilty ... Such is the life though :) That's why I can't do basketball too. I'd lose it.

Also part of it is my fault. It's not like Pat says "gimme 3,000 words!" It just happens like that. As you can probably see from my overly serious answer to a harmless joke.

Anyone out there have anything football-related they want to talk about? Hey wildcat, tell us that road trip story again!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 14, 2005, 10:13:50 AM
K-Mack, you do know that Earlham's starting QB was lost for the year. He got hurt during the Manchester game, tried to play against Anderson, and then had to give it up. They're now playing with a freshman QB after the converted wideout that was playing QB got hurt against Wabash.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2005, 06:21:52 PM
Yes,
I am aware. Perhaps I should have let everyone else know. Very significant. (Duh). Karma for you.

OK,
time to share some feedback, going back to the beginning of the month. I withheld the names just in case people weren't trying to be put out there, even though it's pretty much understood that you can be if you write me. But I'm nice like that.

Some of these should spark the board up some.

QuoteHello Mr. McMillan, I love reading your column on D3Football.  I am a big supporter of DIII Athletics.  However I think there was a typo, but it isnt that important, though a loss is still a loss......Macalester didn't get shut out by St. Olaf, the final score was St. Olaf 71  Macalester 10

Thanks

TJ

PS  You are the man!

TJ, correct on both counts.  ;)

QuoteBelow is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
Don\'t worry about it () on  Friday, September 30, 2005 at 02:50:09 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Age: 20
Hometown:
Team I follow: Millsaps
Notes: You keep talking about the DePauw/Trinity tie in the SCAC, but you need to keep you eye out for still undefeated Centre and a well coached, hungry Millsaps team. DePauw and Trinity are beatable... and what if they fall? The SCAC is a lot more even throughout than you might think. This year might have a few suprises for you coming out of the SCAC. Mark my words and watch...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK age 20, I am not worried about your name, and I too expected a little more out of Millsaps ... but it appears the only SCAC surprise this season is the cancelled game.

Next!

QuoteYep.  I am a 5th year senior at Albion College.  I am one of the biggest fans here.  I have only missed one home game here in 5 years, and I usually go to most of the road games.  Hopefully this year Albion can make it back to the Playoffs...which has been a long slump for us here.  I also like listening to games from other schools across DIII.   D3Football.com is by far the best sports site out there.  I think you have a great column.  You are very knowledgeable, and its great there are people like you in the sports community. 

Wish you well.  Have a great weekend

xx

Go Brits!  Hoping to be the "unofficial mascot" at Albion 

When the feedback is this good, how can we not share it?

QuoteFriday, September 30, 2005 at 09:46:50 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Well-balanced offense and defense
Age: 63
Hometown: Hot Springs, arkansas
Team I follow: Monmouth college
Notes: Your quote  "In the MWC, Monmouth and Grinnell have allowed 110 points, while St. Norbert has given up 111. If their defenses are equal, for the moment and the sake of argument, then it goes to show how much difference it makes to be good all around. Each is allowing nearly four TDs a game, but the Scots are 4-0 with 172 points scored, the Green Knights are 2-2 with 102 and the Pioneers are 1-3 with 77."

Here is the actual situation regarding Monmouth. ---Other than the comeback win vs. St. Norbert's, here are the scores for the Monmouth, Ill. Scots' three games after the third quarter:
37-6 vs. Concordia
48-12 vs. Ripon
56-8 vs. Beloit

In these 3 games Monmouth "mass substituted" 2nd and 3rd string players for most of the second half.  Calling off the dogs, as they say.

I call that well-balanced.

Bob

Yes, some of your friends were very keen on pointing that out, as you'll see.

(more to come)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2005, 06:45:56 PM
I believe there's a quote within a quote here, but I edited it in ...

QuoteDear Keith,

Thanks for all the references to Monmouth this week.  I'm sure the 4-0 start doesn't hurt.  And, yes...The Knox game will probably be a complete dud.  But we Scots don't mind all that much.  J

Regarding the number crunching...I'm going to copy & paste a post a made earlier this week about the Scots fourth quarter defense.  If needed, I'm sure the Scots D could best the 77 points allowed.  Not a criticism, of course.  If you do a number crunching piece about the first 3 quarters (before the dogs are called off) perhaps Monmouth will make your list again.  Thanks for the love.

"Scottie"

"Monmouth seemed to have a great day in the first half scoring everytime they touched the ball.  But seemed to call the dogs off in the second half." 

QuoteJester 76

Yeah, I'd say Monmouth called off the dogs.  Other than the comeback win vs. SNC, here are the scores for the Scots' three games after the third quarter:
37-6 vs. Concordia
48-12 vs. Ripon
56-14 vs. Beloit

Hopefully, calling off the dogs doesn't hurt in DIII like it does in the BCS Poll where the "quality of the win" is judged in part by margin of victory. 

On to Lake Forest...

Unused note from our features writer...
Quotegrant cochran (whom we wrote about in the cochran brothers story 2 yrs ago) got married this summer. they had the wedding reception on the fb field. his wife said that would be ok, but no throwing of a FB allowed...grant is an academic AA with pretty unique ambition...he's going to go to medical school with hopes of someday becoming the US Surgeon General...

kevin beattie at rpi has more if youre intrigured

Um, he's right. We probably should have pursued that story. On the field? Nice.

QuoteKeep your eye on Texas Lutheran, they played Mary Hardin Baylor tough in their house and had a chance to win it. Their game against Trinity (Texas) was their first outing and Trinity's second, again they were in position to win but Lightning dealay and first game jitters took the wind out of their sails. Their first 2 possessions Trinity had no answer for TLU's passing game. A different Salinas came out after the delay was a little off target for 2 quarters. They could beat Hardinn Simmons in the last game and win the ASC. Of course this all depends on injuries and that game is a long way off.

Yeah, I think both you and I kept a little too much eye on TLU. Howard Pain?

QuoteI would just like to point out that two of the three losses suffered by the CCIW were at the hands of IIAC opponents.  Only one win of the CCIW's comes from the IIAC.  So, in review the IIAC has a winning record over the CCIW.

Simpson over IWU
Central over Augustana
Milikin over Wartburg

COOCOOFORCOEKOHAWK!

Right. What she said.

(But was it really necessary to review after two sentences? I'm ADD and all, but dang)  ;)

QuoteKeith,

So this past week was not a good showing for Ferrum. Though we did put up 55 points.  There still seems to be a lack of respect for Ferrum. I mean HSC still has more quality points on the polls? How is that? Everyone knew they would lose to Bridgewater? They play in a worse conference than we do. I mean we are  5-0 and putting up huge numbers and our defense was stellar up until this past game. Though we slacked during the first half, we still had the game in control. I am just wondering whats Ferrum got to do?

Thanks,

Remember, these are old still. My response at the time:

QuoteWell,
as we mentioned last week, consistency over time is rewarded. Early in a
season, a lot of people judge by 'traditional strength' and what they've
learned to expect, especially if they feel there aren't enough results
this season to go on.

When you start out unranked, you just have to win consistently and beat
your good opponents, either ones with impressive records or recognizable
names. Some of the voters are from the midwest or west coast, and really
have had little reason to pay attention to Ferrum until now. Me, having
played, lived and covered football in Virginia, I already know. And I'm
sure some voters are more thorough than others.

Hang tight. Keep winning, and no one can ignore you, you know?

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

P.S. the 55-40 caught me off guard too, but good teams have to be able to
win any kind of game, shootout, bad weather, defensive struggle, etc., so
that's a good sign.

P.P.S. As far as HSC, if people look at Bridgewater as a perennial top
25, the Tigers might have even helped themselves with a close loss. I
wasn't voting for them last week, and aren't this week ... but I could
see how someone could convince himself to.

QuoteSun. Oct. 2
Keith,

        I noticed Monmouth got 1, exactly 1 vote, for this week's D3 poll.  I think the Scots should be getting a little more respect.  They are a combined 22-3 in their last 25 games and ended St. Norbert's 56 week stay as the best team in the MWC this year with a 28-20 win in De Pere.  They outscored the Green Knights 21-0 in the second half and would've blown them out had it not been for a sloppy first half.  They followed that up with a 34-0 pounding of Lake Forest at Lake Forest. I think the reason they aren't getting much respect from the out of region writers and coaches is that the statistics have been a little deceiving in some of their games.  For example, their other 3 wins are 40-26 vs. Concordia (Wis.), 48-34 vs. Ripon, and 56-30 vs. Beloit.  Now, here are the scores after 3 quarters when they took the starters out; 40-6, 48-12, and 56-14!  This team is going to surprise someone when the playoffs start, and it won't be me.  You should take a look at the individual statistics of some of these guys if you get a chance; Mitch Tanney (QB), Evan Hafner (WR), Duante Daniels (RB), and Justin Zigler (LB). 

xxx xxxxxxxx
MC alum.

Yeah, Monmouth, same deal as Ferrum. You just have to keep winning to make that name for yourself in the voters eyes. I guess I am speaking for all of us, but maybe I shouldn't be. That's just an opinion.

Also, you can't overvalue who you play against. For instance, say St. Norbert had played Whitewater close. They might get more respect for losing to a good opponent than another team would for blowing out a team that isn't very good.

And as I always say, it takes patience. Even if every conference had an undefeated team at the end of the season, they couldn't all be in the top 25. There are 26 conferences, plus independents. There are 32 playoff spots. Where in D I-A you have 119 schools and about half with a real chance at getting ranked, d3 has 231 ...

Also, since we don't have TV coverage and such for out of region teams, out-of-conference play and playoffs (guaranteed out of conference play against top opponents) is really where teams earn their respect.

Just some thoughts, because there are a lot of unbeaten teams not ranked, and there are every year.

Wow, still on Oct. 2.

More to come later, I guess.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 16, 2005, 06:29:05 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 07, 2005, 12:39:34 AM
Those extra few slots really open things up a bit.

Going back a few pages, I agree with this as much as anything ... and have been speculating to my heart's desire on the Pool B thread. Pool C will follow soon, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 16, 2005, 07:15:18 PM
Yeah,
Kid's chart is helpful in some ways ... but you can't tell me Bowdoin is better than Linfield :)

Quote from: gordonmann on October 12, 2005, 04:50:21 PM
Kid:

Not to suggest painful computations, but you need to take your analysis one step further to opponents'-opponents winning percentage.

For example, maybe Team X beats a 3-1 Team Y.  But who has Team Y beat to get to 3-1 : Pee Wee Tech, Wassamatta U and Y-Even Bother A&M.  Suddenly that win over a 3-1 team doesn't look so impressive.

To put this in a concrete perspective, Monmouth has beaten 6 teams with a combined win percentage of .621.  Pretty impressive.

But do you know how many of their six victims have wins against teams with winning records?  One (Ripon over Lake Forest).  The rest have wins over MacMurray, Concordia (Ill.) and Macalester.  Not so impressive.

Suddenly Monmouth doesn't look like it's in the top 10 for SOS...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on October 19, 2005, 04:00:56 PM
Hey Keith,

Does Linfield only having 8 games games (only 6 D-3 games) hurt their chance at being the #1 seed in the West?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 19, 2005, 05:49:21 PM
Wildcat, if another undefeated West Region team has more West Region wins, a favorable QOWI, a win over another playoff team and compares favorably in any common opponents, then I think that non-Linfield team has done everything that it could to get top seed.

My two cents...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 20, 2005, 03:36:52 PM
There is NO WAY that someone other than the undefeated defending champs is the #1 seed in their region.  If they lost a game, then sure.  But it's never going to happen as long as the champs are undefeated.    The NCAA has done some dumb things in D3, but not even they are dumb enough to do that.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 20, 2005, 04:12:53 PM
HSCoach, now that you have challenged the NCAA to be even dumber they will probably do just what you said they wouldn't do.   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Phife on October 20, 2005, 07:04:57 PM
The NCAA is so dumb that I bet they go to a BCS-style poll that is determinative and bowl games for D-III.  Sheesh.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 20, 2005, 10:43:45 PM
Wildcat,
I agree with hscoach (stunning, I know...)

You have to throw computations out the window in favor of common sense here. An unbeaten defending champ is top seed in its region, especially if no one has played them closely.

And actually, since the dropped game (No. 9) was Lewis & Clark, not playing might actually help your SOS ... although I guess the NCAA scale that gives points for a home win, etc., may not be as affected by that.

Honestly, even with a 10-0 SJU, a 10-0 Whitewater (maybe not in the West bracket), a 9-0 Oxy or whatever, Linfield has to be the top seed.

That's my unprofessional opinion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2005, 01:18:04 AM
QuoteI think a good resource, which I'll start on the Around the Nation board, would be to keep a running list of significant injuries. When evaluating results, it would really pay to know if a certain star missed Game X or only played the first four weeks. I'll start the list on the ATN thread, but please help me populate and maintain it.

Basically, if you only follow one conference ... as we get to the point of following other schools, it'd be nice to know.

GOod places to start our list would be HSU QB Jordan Neal and Rowan QB Mike Orihel.

A good format might be like:
QB Keith McLeinart, out 4-6 weeks, elbow, games missed (# and opponents)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 21, 2005, 12:03:39 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2005, 10:43:45 PM

I agree with hscoach (stunning, I know...)


Ouch.  That hurt.   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on October 21, 2005, 12:41:57 PM
Keith,

  Do you really think that the LL has a shot at Pool C?  It would be nice to think that, but I feel like the sentiment against the league would keep it from getting one this year. 

  That said, if you look at SJF's opponents and play this year, it doesn't seem clear that they would be a lock for a pool C over 2nd place in the LL.  Particularly with Ithaca's slip-up last week.  As of right now, their best win is against a Brockport team that may or may not finish above .500.  Assuming they beat Alfred, that would likely be their best win.  I guess the question is, would a win over Alfred be any better than a win over RPI/Hobart/Union (depending on how the LL shakes out)?

  The sentiment is that SJF has had more success in the playoffs, but in reality, they lost to a Delaware Valley team last year that took a beating to Rowan that was pretty similar to Hobart's loss to Rowan.  The big win over Muhlenberg is only a little better than Hobart's beating of Curry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2005, 01:30:11 PM
Technically,
a lot of the stuff mentioned below (past playoff performance, sentiment for/against a particular league) is not supposed to be playoff criteria. The committee is human though, and wants the best 32 teams it can get into the show, so I imagine it could be considered...

Pool C and Pool B bids Nos. 5, 6 or 7 are really going to depend on the strength of the field. If a few teams stumble late, and Union goes 10-0 and Hobart 9-1 (or whatever), yes, I do think an LL team can get in in Pool C.

First, it's just a gut feeling that 9-1s are in really good shape now with the four extra bids. But also, think about what kind of success an 8-2 would have to have to get in over a 9-1 (has to be someone like CNU, if their two losses were to unbeaten Rowan and one-loss Salisbury, or something).

And you have to look at the field as a whole and strength of the East. That doesn't mean that they select teams based on geography (you're supposed to pick the 32, then seed and set matchups) ... but it does mean that if other teams Hobart/Union/RPI played, or their opponents' opponents (like a Johns Hopkins, for example) finish well, it will reflect well on the LL teams. But it works both ways ... what if, and this is a big if ... Alfred was in the mix and W&L was the ODAC champ. Now Alfred's loss looks a lot less painful.

The NCAA committee has specific criteria, but I can't help but think some of it is a little subjective ... and the real answer to whether the LL has a good or poor rep in the committee's eyes hasn't quite been answered yet. 

But yes, Pool C shots in the LL are real, in my estimation. What if RPI is 9-1 with its only loss to a 10-0 Hobart team in 3 OTs. You're going to tell me one is playoff worthy and one isn't? That's tough. ... same thing with SJF, it really hasn't been solved yet whether their certain wins are strong or weak, but if Ithaca is a one-loss AQ, and SJF played them into OT, you have to assume the two are almost equal ... but again, it depends who else is in the B/C mix and what they've done.

Quote from: ktroutvon on October 21, 2005, 12:41:57 PM
Keith,

  Do you really think that the LL has a shot at Pool C?  It would be nice to think that, but I feel like the sentiment against the league would keep it from getting one this year. 

  That said, if you look at SJF's opponents and play this year, it doesn't seem clear that they would be a lock for a pool C over 2nd place in the LL.  Particularly with Ithaca's slip-up last week.  As of right now, their best win is against a Brockport team that may or may not finish above .500.  Assuming they beat Alfred, that would likely be their best win.  I guess the question is, would a win over Alfred be any better than a win over RPI/Hobart/Union (depending on how the LL shakes out)?

  The sentiment is that SJF has had more success in the playoffs, but in reality, they lost to a Delaware Valley team last year that took a beating to Rowan that was pretty similar to Hobart's loss to Rowan.  The big win over Muhlenberg is only a little better than Hobart's beating of Curry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 21, 2005, 01:46:54 PM
I too think a 9-1 LL team has a shot.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on October 21, 2005, 04:35:13 PM
Me three.

Hey, no wait, I thought we hated the LL?  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 21, 2005, 05:09:05 PM
QuoteK-Mack
Posted on: Today at 01:30:11 PM

Pool C shots in the LL are real, in my estimation. What if RPI is 9-1 with its only loss to a 10-0 Hobart team in 3 OTs. You're going to tell me one is playoff worthy and one isn't? That's tough. ... same thing with SJF, it really hasn't been solved yet whether their certain wins are strong or weak, but if Ithaca is a one-loss AQ, and SJF played them into OT, you have to assume the two are almost equal ... but again, it depends who else is in the B/C mix and what they've done.

Whoa, wait 'til the guys on the LL and E8 boards learn that K-Mack agrees w/me that a 3OT win is a lot more like a tie (thus indicating teams of equal strength) than a monkey stomp (which would lead one to think that the winner had a stronger team than the loser).

What might throw a wrench into your thinking is that RPI only plays 9 games, so 8-1 is as good as they can do, with the 1 being in triple OT on the road.  I think Hobart only plays 9 games as well.

More speculation, though: If Hobart wins out, those pumpkinheads get the Pool A, and RPI's only loss is (in 3OT) to a playoff team.  Then K-Mack's predicted NEFC champ Endicott looms large as another playoff team, one that was monkey stomped by RPI. That, and the inscrutable QoW index that looks pretty good for RPI right now (though it's rather meaningless before selection time), could make RPI a relatively easy Pool C choice if the Selection Committee follows its own criteria.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 21, 2005, 09:53:41 PM
Yes, well, I think an 8-1 LL team has NO shot. That's why I said 9-1.

Yeah, I'm kidding. But seriously, get with the program and schedule 10 games. The '90s are over with.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2005, 10:21:45 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 21, 2005, 05:09:05 PMWhat might throw a wrench into your thinking is that RPI only plays 9 games, so 8-1 is as good as they can do, with the 1 being in triple OT on the road.  I think Hobart only plays 9 games as well.

I knew there were some 9-game schedules somewhere, but my brain is pretty fried after ATN is finally finished each week ... you know the feeling of cramming for a test, then the day after you forget 80% of what you studied?

Let's just say it's a good thing it's all here in writing.

Feedback time.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2005, 10:35:27 PM
So my favorite one from recent weeks:

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: E. N. D.
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 3:20 PM
Subject: Liberty League

Your coverage of the LL is not even paltry. What gives?

I have no response to that. None.

Here are a few others I've already answered the writer:

(from before the Ricca story went out front this week; P.S. See also Washington Times)

Quotehello, keith, i am xxxxxxx a first year player from catholic u, and i think you need to know whats going on around this school.  This program that, Coach clark has, got to be and must be the best turnaround a 1 year change, coming from 0-10 last year, we have a 3-3 record right now, and one of those loses was from mcdanle(spelling) college, who were ranked 23rd.  This past week we shown a new life around here, we had school records shattered and a near record nationaly.  We had total offense 728 yards, which i think is like 3 yards short of the national record. and a kid name, nick bilivo(spelling #80) who had 378 yards 4 touchdowns, which broke a school record.  This team as you can tell is truning around to become a powerhouse in offense, we just needed some time to turn things around and i see the light.  I think its important that you recozie this great bunch of teammates of mine because we busted our butt to turn this program around as of now, the future is looking bright

Thanks... xxxxx

xxxxx@cua.edu

I lost the response, but basically it  said that, given the ties of the site's founder/publisher and myself to the ODAC, we are well aware of what's going on at Catholic ... and while it's nice that they are .500, with a forfeit win, it's not even Coach Clark's best turnaround (he flipped them from 1-9 to 8-2 in 1994 or something) ... Given how high the bar was set by the teams in the late 1990s at CUA, I'm sure coach Clark and most alumni would agree that it's a little early for us to be writing about how Catholic is back/turned around.

It was much more kind and eloquent when I said it before though.

More to come ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2005, 11:03:40 PM
Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Most consecutive wins
Age: 41
Hometown: Palmyra, VA
Team I follow: Linfield
Notes: In your report on teams with the longest current winning streaks you list Trinity at 25 games. How is that possible? Did you mean regular-season games? If you're also including playoff games they couldn't possibly have won 25 straight. Including the playoffs every team in D-3 football lost at least one game last year - with the exception of Linfield.

Thanks for the good stuff though!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope,
it's possible. Trinity plays in the NESCAC, which does not permit its teams
to play out-of-conference opponents or accept playoff bids. They're
restricted to an eight-game season, and won six or seven to end '02, then
went 8-0, 8-0 and are 4-0 this year.

Linfield is second though. Thanks for writing in ... There's a Palmyra in
Virginia?

** Perhaps this fellow thought we were referring to Trinity (Texas) too. I dunno.

Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: Freudian slip
> Age: 53
> Hometown: Greensboro, NC
> Team I follow: Guilford Quakers, ODAC
> Notes: I've heard of "football factories," but isn't it a bit of a stretch to call the Middle Atlantic Conference the "Middle Atlantic Corporation" as seen in this week's ATN?  lol
>
> I'm sure it's an inadvertent error, but it was a bit funny.
>
> Thanks, xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx, Guilford College Quaker '74
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Believe it or not,
that's actually what the MAC prefers, when they're not calling themselves the MASCAC (Middle Atlantic States Collegiate Athletic Corporation)

Go ahead and Google it, or check www.lvc.edu/mac/

** Well, now that I think about it, I'm not sure what the MAC really prefers. If you look at some of the stuff I have from different years, some says conference, some just wants it to be known as Freedom and Commonwealth (i.e. the Middle Atlantic Conferences).

Corporation was on purpose though. And if it wasn't, not sure what was Freudian about it ... but not to be mean, let's move on:

Quote> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> Subject: Glad for a week off
> Age: 45
> Hometown: Sterling, VA
> Team I follow: Ferrum Panthers
> Notes: Keith,
>
> I have to agree with your assessment of who will probably get in the
playoffs from USASC (CNU). I doubt that Ferrum will be looked at by anyone
as the favorite. The concern that you mentioned for FC to look past an
opponent is more real in the next 2 games than it would have been against
Methodist. I worry about FC's inability to stop the pass, and while GC, and
NCW are not the cream of the crop, I think it would be very easy for FC to
misjudge their abilities, and have their season ended before the CNU game. I
am hoping for a more positive outcome however.
>
> I have to counter that realist sounding messsage with a note of hope that
on a cool clear November day in the foothills of the Blue Ridge in Franklin
County Virgina, (with a wild and crazy home crowd behind them)the improbable
may happen. It will be an opportunity for the hopefully undefeated Ferrum
Panthers to surprise the DIII world, and make the playoffs at 10-0. and
maybe get ranked.
>
> At any rate, they are certainly better than the preseason USASC prediction
of fifth. And I think they get most of their personnel back next year. Talk
about looking ahead!
>
> Thanks for your support of D3 football
>
> xxxxx x
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xxxxx,
You have single-handedly restored my respect for Ferrum football fans. Very
thoughtful and classy note. Mostly this year we've received "why aren't they
ranked yet?!" ... which is par for the course, and not a big deal ... just
gets tiring after a while.

  I would hope that the closer Ferrum gets to the playoffs, the tighter the
focus becomes. Obviously, you want to practice precisely and play loose, and
not put unnecessary pressure on yourselves ... and I agree, it is simply
human nature, especially for kids, to have lapses when they don't respect
the opponent.

  Enjoy the Methodist win. I thought that could have been a stumbling block,
but now it is full speed ahead. Have fun with it, and thanks for writing.

** More to come...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on October 23, 2005, 04:42:36 PM
Hey,

ESPN is actually covering 2 DIII stories in their ESPNews headlines, as listed on the college football page.  The tragedy in Minnesota and The MUC loss.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 23, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
Oh, K-Mack - thanks for the props and I got your back on any poll questions from the Wabash faithful.

Poll or computer ratings, I don't think ANYONE could have predicted what happened to Mt. Union and Hardin-Simmons. Going to be interesting, eh?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Nbrown64 on October 24, 2005, 12:28:16 PM
Two major Wheaton players missed the Illinois Wesleyan game:

TB Luke Bazacas was injured on the second play of the game.
FB Brad Thornton was injured the week before.

I apologize for not knowing the severity of the injuries.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 27, 2005, 04:20:22 PM
OK,
I'm pretty much just going to play question-and-answer with as much feedback as I can, starting with the current stuff first.

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxxxxxxx@aol.com
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 12:09 PM
Subject: Just a question


I play football for Wilkes and I was wondering how you do the playoff spots, or if you could tell me anything you know off-hand about how my teams chances are for making the playoffs. It would be greatly appreciated.

Yeah,
Here are a couple good resources.

First, start with an explanation of how things work: http://www.d3football.com/faq.php?question&category=Playoffs

Next, once you understand automatic qualifiers (Pool A) and at-large (Pool C), which are the only ones that pertain to you, a good place to follow this stuff is our message board, Post Patterns and this thread: http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=3941.0

That's playoff projections, but you can also try the thread labeled Pool C.

Or the weekly Around the Nation column: http://www.d3football.com/atn.php

For specific chances regarding Wilkes, you guys will have to win out and finish 8-2 to have a decent shot in Pool C. Subjectively, the close loss to Del Val probably helps and the loss to William Paterson hurts, but technically a lot of the selection committee's criteria is based on strength of schedule and in-region wins, so it really depends on what other teams in similar situations around the country do, and how you stack up against them after Week 11.

Hope that helps,

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hampton U SID on October 27, 2005, 09:49:47 PM
Hi Keith
I enjoy reading your column...very insightful.
I do have a question for you....when talking about DIII vs. higher opponents (DII, NAIA, I-AA)...you mentioned in there a Newport News Academy.

Is that supposed to be Newport News Apprentice School?

Thank you Keith
:)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on October 27, 2005, 10:51:09 PM
Keith,
As much as I hate to say it, I think you have Mary Hardin-Baylor and Hardin Simmons backwards in your Pool A and Pool C watches.  Because their game with Louisiana College was cancelled due to hurricane Katrina and because the ASC's first criteria is winning percentage, there is no way UMHB can win the AQ unless they win out and Hardin Simmons loses another game.  If they both win out, Hardin Simmons has the AQ because they will have won one more game than UMHB.  Even though they beat Hardin Simmons handily, they cannot catch up on winning percentage.   :(
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2005, 09:59:57 AM
Quote from: roocru on October 27, 2005, 10:51:09 PM
Keith,
Even though they beat Hardin Simmons handily, they cannot catch up on winning percentage.   :(

Unless Ty Sellers and McMurry shock the world this weekend  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on October 28, 2005, 10:35:42 AM
Ron,

We have church on Saturday night's at 6:30 so I might have to miss the game, but you can be sure that if I get out of here in time to catch the second half I'll be at Shotwell.  That game is just too important.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on October 28, 2005, 11:39:43 AM
Ron,
After Howard Payne this year and ETBU a few years ago, I am definitely not taking things for granted.  ;D
That's why I said  "If they win out ...."   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bisonpride on October 28, 2005, 11:43:11 AM
FLASH NEWS!!!
Click the link below to read today's interesting edition of Washington Post article related to the Gallaudet football team..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/27/AR2005102702034.html

Go Bison!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2005, 11:56:53 AM
Bison pride, thanks for the link!  Good luck to the Bison!

Has Gallaudet discussed joining a conference? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on October 28, 2005, 12:42:26 PM
I would think that being in DC Gallaudet would consider joining either the CC or the ODAC if they were looking to play football.  The ACFC would be an option, but without the AQ I would see very little for Gallaudet to gain that way.  I have no idea if Gallaudet is considering any of these options or not but those confrences would be the logical canadates.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2005, 12:37:10 AM
Yes,
both Ron and Ralph also pointed this out. I thought I had taken that into account, but apparently did not proofread very well, if at all.

Quote from: roocru on October 27, 2005, 10:51:09 PM
Keith,
As much as I hate to say it, I think you have Mary Hardin-Baylor and Hardin Simmons backwards in your Pool A and Pool C watches.  Because their game with Louisiana College was cancelled due to hurricane Katrina and because the ASC's first criteria is winning percentage, there is no way UMHB can win the AQ unless they win out and Hardin Simmons loses another game.  If they both win out, Hardin Simmons has the AQ because they will have won one more game than UMHB.  Even though they beat Hardin Simmons handily, they cannot catch up on winning percentage.   :(

I have no idea where Newport News Academy came from. So noted. (Also, I will slow down as I type)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2005, 12:52:46 AM
Also Keith I have not included NNA in any of my calculations for D3 vs the world.

Sorry that my hard drive crashed and appears to be irreparably corrupted.  The loss of those downloads via my AOL is catastrophic to my recreational interests and a few of my other outside activities. :(

Good ATN summary of the conferences!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2005, 12:59:11 AM
That's OK Ralph, I have to skim the schedule a couple times each week for longest road trip, five games to watch, etc., so it's no big to pull out the non-division games, esp. this late in the year when there are few.

It was nice to have the pre-assembled list though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2005, 03:28:07 AM
That's good news. Earlier this year, we were in a press box and heard a Chicago Tribune writer say much the same thing ... that he loves coming out to do the D3 games, just have to get those editors to believe the people want to read about it. Even every now and again.

Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 29, 2005, 10:44:34 AM
A year or two ago, one of the Washington Post* sports columnists wrote a column discussing college football.  His conclusion was that Division III should be the model for all college athletics.  Unfortunately, that sentiment is a minority among fans of college sports.  Even Baylor basketball players killing each other brought virtually no discussion of the negative impact of athletic scholarships.

That Washington Post sports columnist has since retired. :'(

* Lousy paper, great sports columnists.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Gray Fox on October 30, 2005, 12:38:13 PM
OxyBob,

Thanks for posting the LATimes stories.  I can never find them when I search for them. 
For Oxy to go undefeated, they will have to win the Stagg, so I doubt there will be a story.:P   I see that Linfield was mentioned also as tied for 25th.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: TheCoach on October 31, 2005, 01:07:37 PM
Does anyone know of any GA posistions that will be opening at the end of the season.  (D1, DII or DIII). 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 31, 2005, 03:47:15 PM
I don't, but we have a job board that I hope will be populated with those types of jobs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2005, 01:43:25 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 29, 2005, 10:44:34 AM* Lousy paper, great sports columnists.

How can you say the Washington Post is a lousy paper? The only people I ever hear say that are right-wingers who hate almost every newspaper, and people whose high school doesn't get enough coverage and have an axe to grind.

Given who I work for, I probably shouldn't say this, but from a strictly journalistic perspective, the Post is about as thorough and as forward-thinking as they come. Their sports section is OK, but the columnists are good.

Random aside. Now back to arguing over the relationship between the poll and playoff spots.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 08:57:04 AM
I was going to let that one go msyelf.   

Having spent three years in DC and also previously and now living in NYC, I can say, definitively (in my opinion), that the Post is far superior to the NY Times.  The only thing the times is more adept at is introducing their ego into their "journalism". 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 08:58:18 AM
Andrew Ross Sorkin is pretty good though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 09:57:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 02, 2005, 01:43:25 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 29, 2005, 10:44:34 AM* Lousy paper, great sports columnists.

How can you say the Washington Post is a lousy paper? The only people I ever hear say that are right-wingers who hate almost every newspaper, and people whose high school doesn't get enough coverage and have an axe to grind.

. . . from a strictly journalistic perspective, the Post is about as thorough and as forward-thinking as they come.  Their sports section is OK, but the columnists are good

1.  Gee Keith, what do the right-wingers who don't hate every newspaper say about the Washington Post?

2. From a journalistic perspective, I think that the Washington Post has lost its journalistic perspective.  Just as an example, when the City of Manassass VA announced plans to spend $170,000 building an assistance center for illegal immigrants, hundreds of local residents called the mayor's office to complain that they would rather their tax money be spent on citizens, or at least legal residents.  The volume of calls led the mayor's office to shut down the switchboard.  The headline in the Washington Post--front page, above the fold--read "Hate Calls Paralyze Manassas Mayor's Office."

3. Natalie Hopkinson (http://www.andrewsullivan.com/culture.php?artnum=20010702)

There are plenty more reasons (including Janet Cooke, if you really want to discuss thoroughness), but you're right, this is an aside, and it's more fun to remind the LL and E8 posters that I was explaining to them over a month ago that SoS/QOW would be as big a determining factor in playoff selection as any of their chest-thumping antics.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 09:58:54 AM
Quote from: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 08:57:04 AM
Having spent three years in DC and also previously and now living in NYC, I can say, definitively (in my opinion), that the Post is far superior to the NY Times.  

That is not saying a hell of a lot.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on November 02, 2005, 10:16:24 AM
So, Swarm, just wondering if there are any papers you would consider good?

Somehow, I'm expecting to hear WSJ . . .
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on November 02, 2005, 10:48:32 AM
I'm fairly "right wing" but respect the NY Times and WSJ.

Not sure what that says about me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 10:54:15 AM
Quote from: repete on November 02, 2005, 10:16:24 AM
So, Swarm, just wondering if there are any papers you would consider good?

Somehow, I'm expecting to hear WSJ . . .

The Danbury (CT) News-Times.  ;D

Has the Wall Street Journal ever had to return a Pulitzer Prize?  I might read the WSJ, if I could afford it.

Enough of this nonsense--on to the important stuff, like who's going to get the Pool C bids?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on November 02, 2005, 11:07:56 AM
OK . . . if Concordia-Moorhead misses a bid with just a last-minute loss to No. 3 SJU, then something's very wrong.

As for affording the WSJ, burning USAir FF miles works great.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 11:38:21 AM
The SF Chronicle is pretty good.

QoWI counts when you have a QoW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 11:38:21 AM
The SF Chronicle is pretty good.

Way back when Ray Ratto was writing for the SF Chronicle, I regarded their sports columnists--especially Glenn Dickey--as highly as I regard the Washington Post's sports columnists.


Quote from: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 11:38:21 AM
QoWI counts when you have a QoW.

There's a hidden meaning in there somewhere, isn't there, Trout?  Who exactly is "you" in your proclamation?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 01:52:24 PM
Whatever do you mean?  I was using "you" in the royal sense.  Is there some reason why that would be a sensitive area?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 02:49:04 PM
Quote from: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 11:38:21 AM
QoWI counts when you have a QoW.

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 12:58:41 PMThere's a hidden meaning in there somewhere, isn't there, Trout?  Who exactly is "you" in your proclamation?

Quote from: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 01:52:24 PM
Whatever do you mean?  I was using "you" in the royal sense.  Is there some reason why that would be a sensitive area?

Sensitive?  Who said anything about sensitive?  I'm just trying to figure out what you mean.

QoW doesn't apply to a "royal you," it applies to a specific team.   It makes no sense to apply the concept of QoW generically.  Were you simply stating a tautology?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 03, 2005, 06:39:18 PM
Just a heads-up -- Keith's column is posted, although it will be a while before I get a chance to remake the front page.

http://www.d3football.com/atn.php
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 03, 2005, 07:04:58 PM
QuoteSecond, I've been wondering if the Monon Bell Game is really Division III's top rivalry. Whenever I'm asked, I always say it is, in a top tier with Williams-Amherst and Ithaca-Cortland. But perhaps DePauw-Wabash is nothing more than Randolph-Macon/Hampden-Sydney Midwest, in which case I've been there every year since 1994.

Oh, Keith, sigh....you KNOW better than THAT.  ;)

Though when you do go to a game, come to one at Wabash. We'll treat you right!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on November 04, 2005, 09:53:19 AM
Keith, the Unviversity of San Diego (playing against Chapman) is D-IAA not D-II as you listed in your column. They are part of the non-scholorship Pioneer League.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2005, 01:41:18 PM
That's annoying, because I was just reading about the Pioneer League earlier this week and noticed that it covers from Jacksonville and Davidson through the Midwest to SD.

Sadly though, during some of the late-night stat-compiling ATN missions, my research tool is Google and the word "Division."

Either they're Division II in something and I didn't properly check for football, or I'm blind.

We should get that fixed.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 01:49:10 PM
UC - San Diego is D-2. They don't play football.

It's confusing, I know.

The U. of San Diego is a private, Catholic School that is D-1AA.

San Diego State is a  D-1A school.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2005, 01:49:55 PM
Today's e-mails and feedback (still got some back stuff that I've read and not shared though).

I'll still withhold e-mail addresses, but I'm pretty sure everyone e-mailing has been properly forewarned about their name/feedback being used publicly.

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxxxxxx
To: keith@d3football.com ; pat@d3football.com
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 7:47 PM
Subject: Full time /Part time coaches in d3

Keith and Pat- Thanks again for a great web site I have been an avid fan of it since 2000 and i am glad of the coverage. Silly Question??? How many of the d3 football teams have full time coaches and how many do not? I am not looking for a true answer but thought that could be a good story. I played , graduated and coached at a d3 program that was ALL part time coaches ( we were all teachers) @ UMass Dartmouth and just curious how and if that reflects in the number of coaches. We played Ithaca last year in the ECAC and they had twice the staff plus at least 5 guys who were considered full time football (coaches and G.A's) It was actually funny because one of the coaches had to take a day out of work to drive the film to NY. These "little" things get overlooked and a friend and former player was curious how all of d3 is set up

xxxxxx

(Actually, I took this guy's name off because it's probably a touchy subject. I know, I'm such a wuss.)

xxxxxx,
There are limitations unique to many small schools, some by entire conferences. I know at Randolph-Macon, where I went, except for the head coach, everyone else who was a school employee had some other job: Baseball coach, softball coach, intramurals coordinator, taught health and 'coaching football,' worked in financial aid office. And we had a few coaches who would show up about 3 p.m. in a suits from their day jobs and get changed for practice just like players.

We talk to coaches who double as ADs or SIDs or conference football committee chairs. I know at least one conference has, or had, limits on preseason practice that did not match up with what the rest of Division III is allowed, etc. ... Some schools just cost $30,000 and their conference opponents a half or a third of that, and others are 1,000-student schools trying to battle those with 10,000 (the size of the teams may be similar, but the resources available aren't). Part of that is just the facts of life in any group of colleges, be it Division III football or whatever.

That said, I think you are on to something in that it would be interesting to chart what the different limitations are and how they affect competitiveness. It's definitely something on our radar, though I'm not sure where, when or how we might be able to gather all of that information.

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx@aol.com
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: Curry Vrs. Fitchburg State

Kieth, I hope either team (Curry or Fitchburg State) makes you eat your words in the NCAA brackets this year!  Go NEFC.  They have been forced to play away in each NCAA opening round game based on their seeded positions in the past.  That's a big disadvantage.  How many times have they been represented in the NCAA's, seven years?  The NEFC is getting better each year.

No one will be happier than me if either team kicks butt in the opening round this year ... they get no respect!!!

Bill Price
Curry 1969

Bill,
I am assuming that was a reference to the "eat your words" part of the column and not anything I said. I've definitely noted that there will only be one NEFC bid this year, but I don't think I've disparaged the conference's ability to win in the playoffs outside of mentioning the facts.

I don't believe conference strength alone wins playoff games, and as I pointed out earlier this year, since the playoffs expanded there have been games NEFC teams should have/could have won (Ursinus 43, Bridgewater 38 in 1999, West. Conn. 8, Westfield State 7 in 2001) ... the other scores were 25-0, 56-6, 34-20 and 35-16, so those haven't helped. I think the UMass-Dartmouth loss in '02 hurt the conference's reputation most, especially since they were 11-0 coming in ... In this year's case, the NEFC champ will get sent on the road irrespective of the conference's past. Every NEFC team has a loss or two, and the inter-conference results are not impressive.

In any case, we've seen the SCIAC rise with respectable performances in the past three years, and the IBFC nearly won its first-round game last year. I'd much rather get sent on the road in the first round in the East than in the North (Mount Union), West (Linfield) or South (Texas teams). As far as seeding and road games, sometimes, them's the breaks ... Have you ever heard the phrase to be the best you have to beat the best?

Bill, talk you again soon. Best of luck to the NEFC champ.

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxx
To: <keith@d3football.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 8:47 PM
Subject: Double-Digit Winless Streaks

Hello,
>
>   First off let me say that I look forward to your column every week. As
> a 1997 Nichols College grad I hate to say this, but Nichols actually
> belongs in the double-digit winless streak list. The Bison's last win
> was a 35-7 decision over MIT on October 23, 2004. Hopefully the streak
> will end this weekend vs WNEC, but the way things are going this season
> it doesn't look good. Thanks for all you do and keep up the good work.
>
>   Charlie Marble

Charlie,
Thanks. I guess if I have to fail to mention anything for any particular
school, it might as well be that. Thanks for the heads-up.

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxxx
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:43 PM
Subject: Hopkins playoff chances

Keith,

I like your column but I don't understand why you said Hopkins put its playoff hopes in doubt.  They still control there own destiny the last time I looked.  Just because McDaniel was ranked by you guys earlier in the year doesn't mean Hopkins is going to go in there and get pushed around next week.  Sure, Hopkins lost a game they should of won last week, but this hopefully served as a wake up call for them.

- Tom

Tom,
I said they put their hopes in doubt because until then, there were virtually no doubts. It doesn't have anything to do with McDaniel; rather the fact that Hopkins let Ursinus back into the race.

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

A couple more to come, I think ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2005, 01:57:08 PM
One last straggling turn of a phrase ...

If you could afford it, you would read the WSJ.

(I think that advances the joke, but perhaps was what you were going for all along.)

Anyway ...

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 10:54:15 AM
Quote from: repete on November 02, 2005, 10:16:24 AM
So, Swarm, just wondering if there are any papers you would consider good?

Somehow, I'm expecting to hear WSJ . . .

The Danbury (CT) News-Times.  ;D

Has the Wall Street Journal ever had to return a Pulitzer Prize?  I might read the WSJ, if I could afford it.

Enough of this nonsense--on to the important stuff, like who's going to get the Pool C bids?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 04, 2005, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2005, 01:57:08 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 02, 2005, 10:54:15 AM
Quote from: repete on November 02, 2005, 10:16:24 AM
So, Swarm, just wondering if there are any papers you would consider good?

Somehow, I'm expecting to hear WSJ . . .

The Danbury (CT) News-Times.  ;D

Has the Wall Street Journal ever had to return a Pulitzer Prize?  I might read the WSJ, if I could afford it.

Enough of this nonsense--on to the important stuff, like who's going to get the Pool C bids?
One last straggling turn of a phrase ...

If you could afford it, you would read the WSJ.

(I think that advances the joke, but perhaps was what you were going for all along.)

Anyway ...

:DThank you everybody, you've been a great audience, I'll be here all week!  Be kind to the waitresses! :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2005, 02:28:44 PM
Yeah, really.

OK. I have some errands to run and bags to pack, but I'll be back tonight with more feedback ... for those crazy enough to sit up the night before a game surfing the board for new stuff to rap about.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2005, 04:13:22 PM
Quote> Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
> Gordon (nashusmc@earthlink) on  Sunday, November 06, 2005 at 10:52:48 AM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: Div III Playoffs
> Age: 58
> Hometown: Arlington, Virginia
> Team I follow: ODAC, Hampden-Sydney
> Notes: Keith,
> Please give HSC some respect.  The current seniors have won 32 games and
> should beat Macon to make it 33. This year they are 11 points from being
> undefeated.
> V/R,
> Gordon

Gordon,
With all due respect, what respect aren't the Tigers getting that you think they deserve? They were a top 25 team the first four weeks and still received votes after their yearly Bridgewater loss. The Washington & Lee loss is abnormal, but the Generals will probably win seven this year. The Hopkins win would have been more impressive if they hadn't lost to Ursinus the week before. Around the Nation mentioned that they had the nation's No. 3 offense and were an outside playoff candidate.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just not sure what else you're looking for. The assessment of their playoff hopes as slim is very realistic. Two losses is a crapshoot. In our site's projection of the 32-team field last week, which mimics the NCAA's selection criteria, 37 teams were mentioned, and H-SC was not among them.

Keith McMillan
Keith@d3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2005, 05:44:21 PM
Quote> Everyone tends to blame the BCS for the mess in DI football. It isn't
> entirely the BCS' fault. I believe D3 should adopt a rating scale related
> ranking system. These would be the official rankings of the NCAA. They
> would be based on the same criteria of that currently used for the
> playoffs. There would be one change. This system would account for margin
> of victory. According to this system, Linfield would not be #1, nor do
> they currently deserve to be. They have played a lackluster schedule and
> are yet to prove themselves. UW-Whitewater would be the #1 team in the
> nation in accordance to the NCAA DIII Playoff seeding criteria.
>
> If I must I will be more than willing to prove my knowledge by giving you
> the north region's bracket playoff bracket.
>
>
>
> 1.   WABASH
> 2.   MOUNT UNION
> 3.   NORTH CENTRAL
> 4.   AUGUSTANA
> 5.   Mount Saint Joseph
> 6.   LAKELAND
> 7.   ALBION
>
> With a win this week, Augustana solidifies themselves as a #3 seed and
> would play Lakeland. If they were to loose (which they will), they will
> Play Mount Saint Joe. In accordance with NCAA DIII's handbook. The site
> location would be based off of the following criteria: Seating,
> Attendance, Facility Quality, and Seeding. Mount Saint Joseph's football
> team currently calls Schuler Field home. It attends for 3,500 persons and
> is 1 year old in existence. Mount Saint Joseph would be the #4 seed, thus
> making them eligible to host. If North Central were to be the #4 seed .MSJ
> would play in Illinois.
>
> Thanks,
>
> J.R. South

> Avid sports enthusiast
>
> PS. Please respond if you agree, disagree, or have more to add to my
> playoff picture. Those ratings are not the ratings you will see on
> Wednesday of November 9th, but that of November 16th.
>

John,
You're tackling a couple of different issues here, but I see some of what you're saying.
The BCS stinks, no doubt about it, but if it were merely a part of the championship picture, maybe people wouldn't hate it so much. In our case, we have a playoff system that opens to door to everyone for access to the playoffs. Since 21 of 32 bids are automatic, a ratings scale is not necessary to select most of the playoff field, but I think you're saying you want something better than the Quality of Wins index for the NCAA selection committee's criteria.
I like Margin of Victory as a criteria, rather than just straight wins and losses. As a poll voter, I don't crunch numbers to the point where a 2-point win is much different than a 7-point win, but I do look for three levels of victory: could've gone either way/last-minute, 2-3 scores or blowout. Our poll does not affect the playoff field, but it does give a pretty good measurement of what's going on across the country. Linfield should be the No. 1 team and very much deserves to be so. They only have a limited pool of teams who are really able to schedule them, either because of proximity or financial ability to fly to/from Oregon. They play virtually the same schedule as they did last season, when theirs appeared to be a hard schedule, and they have added Hardin-Simmons in the future to ensure quality opponents. Personally, as a poll voter, I don't punish Linfield for their schedule not turning out to be strong, as I might for some schools whose schedule is often weak, no effort made to be strong or does not play logical geographic rivals, perhaps out of fear. The AQ system has eliminated the need for a lot of that though.
You may know that there are at least two ratings (Laz Index and Massey) which use formulas similar to those used in Division I-A's BCS to rate D3 teams.
To my knowledge, stadium factors are not part of the decision on game site, except in the case of inadequacy. For a playoff game, a D3 stadium has to meet certain expectations for the press, for bathrooms, handicap access or whatever; Teams also have to file paperwork in advance, and have been sent on the road for not doing so.
The NCAA also saves on paying for a 55-player/80-person flight when possible, so it might send a 5 to a 3 instead of a 6 to a 3 if it makes financial sense.
Your North bracket looks pretty good except for it missing an 8th team.

I will post this message and response on our Around the Nation board on Post Patterns, our message board.


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 06, 2005, 06:36:50 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2005, 05:44:21 PM

Your North bracket looks pretty good except for it missing an 8th team.


Isn't that really a key point? :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gobash on November 07, 2005, 02:56:28 PM
QuoteSecond, I've been wondering if the Monon Bell Game is really Division III's top rivalry. Whenever I'm asked, I always say it is, in a top tier with Williams-Amherst and Ithaca-Cortland. But perhaps DePauw-Wabash is nothing more than Randolph-Macon/Hampden-Sydney Midwest, in which case I've been there every year since 1994.

K-mack, this does mean you're coming to the Bell game this year, right?  Come to the Wabash tailgating area and look for the guy with scarlet hair (me) and I'll hook you up with a traditional Monon Bell clove-vodka screwdriver (trust me Pat, it'll help him report the game :) )

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 08, 2005, 10:41:52 PM
That's funny.

I've had plenty of invites to meet, but with a 10:30-arriving flight, it might be a close call before gametime, especially if this week goes anything like last week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Trincoll on November 10, 2005, 01:58:18 AM
Go Trinity College Bantams (CT) to win this weekend will be the third undefeated season and 30 game win streak only second to USC
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on November 10, 2005, 03:49:33 PM
Now if only they could test those 30 wins against the rest of the Divison 3 world...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2005, 05:48:14 PM
Quote from: Trincoll on November 10, 2005, 01:58:18 AM
Go Trinity College Bantams (CT) to win this weekend will be the third undefeated season and 30 game win streak only second to USC

Yep, the all-time Division IV record.  Congratulations. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 10, 2005, 06:02:29 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on November 10, 2005, 05:48:14 PM
Quote from: Trincoll on November 10, 2005, 01:58:18 AM
Go Trinity College Bantams (CT) to win this weekend will be the third undefeated season and 30 game win streak only second to USC

Yep, the all-time Division IV record.  Congratulations. 

Ron, are you disagreeing with Junior Assistant Guru K-Mack, who has written that the NESCAC is "small college football at its finest?"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Trincoll on November 10, 2005, 07:18:03 PM
I guess no Ivy leage football team is worth  a damm either since they exclude themselves from the playoffs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 10, 2005, 07:24:47 PM
But at least they play other teams outside of their little cabal. There is absolutely no point of reference to compare the NESCAC to anyone else.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 08:36:01 PM
And how many decades has it been since any Ivy League fb team was 'worth a damn'?! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: coocooforcoekohawk on November 10, 2005, 09:08:42 PM
Harvard has recently been ranked in the top 25 of the DI-AA poll.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 09:12:38 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 10, 2005, 06:02:29 PM
Ron, are you disagreeing with Junior Assistant Guru K-Mack, who has written that the NESCAC is "small college football at its finest?"

That doesn't mean "at its most competitive" -- that statement takes things like atmosphere and rivalry and tradition into account.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 09:27:01 PM
coocoo,

Point noted, though that is AA not A - for d1, they are probably still not in the top 100.

While I was being flippant, I would agree with Smedindy (and later Pat): there is simply no basis for knowing where they stand in d3.  For all we know, Trinity holds the title as the "world's tallest midget".

As far as I am concerned, their records simply DO NOT COUNT as d3 records, since they do not play in d3.  Since Williams is so proud of their all-sports trophy in d3 (for what? 86 years in a row?), why does the NESCAC single out football as singularly evil?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2005, 10:09:44 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 10, 2005, 06:02:29 PM
Ron, are you disagreeing with Junior Assistant Guru K-Mack, who has written that the NESCAC is "small college football at its finest?"

I respect Keith's opinions and knowledge, but if every conference did what the NESCAC does, Division III football would be a joke.  Since they don't want to play with the rest of Division III, why are they even members? 

I also echo the sentiments of many others who find it ironic that the NESCAC doesn't have any problems allowing their STUDENT-athletes to find the time to participate in other playoffs. 

PS - If Keith is a "Junior Assistant Guru" then I guess I am an Associate Assistant Guru, Third Class.   :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 10:35:38 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on November 10, 2005, 10:09:44 PM
PS - If Keith is a "Junior Assistant Guru" then I guess I am an Associate Assistant Guru, Third Class.   :D

Yes. Now get back to swabbing the deck.  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 10:43:49 PM
I'm not quite sure what the debate is even about.

The NESCAC has clearly said that they are NOT a part of d3 for football - they play NO one else and do not participate in play-offs.  Since THEY say they are not a part of d3, why is anyone else even WONDERING where they should be ranked?

For football, they are NOT in d3!!!  Is that a difficult concept to understand?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 10:50:24 PM
Yes -- because regardless of where you classify them, Chuck, they still are Division III member schools and abide by Division III rules.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2005, 10:58:16 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 10:35:38 PM
Yes. Now get back to swabbing the deck.  :D

Aye, aye, cap'n.   ;D

And beggin the cap'n's pardon, but yer avatar's broke. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 11:01:46 PM
Yeah -- I know. Oddly enough, I appear to have prohibited myself from using that image. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 11:09:06 PM
Watch out, Pat, you're gonna revive the Jack Sikma argument!  ;) ;D

Technically/Legally/Officially, they are obviously d3.  But if they play NO one outside their conference (pre-season, season, or post-season), how can they REALLY claim to be d3?  They are an isolated little cell within the d3 organism.

And I am still curious why NESCAC participates in every other sport's post-season (and takes apparently great pride in Williams winning the all-sports trophy every year), but football is evidently uniquely evil?

At the risk of offending the 'elite' of d3, may I suggest the word 'hypocrisy'?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 11:11:28 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 11:09:06 PM
Watch out, Pat, you're gonna revive the Jack Sikma argument!  ;) ;D

You do and you can stop posting. I believe a college professor should be capable of knowing the difference.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 11:32:06 PM
Pat,

As my emoticons made clear, I had NO intention of reviving that argument.

I love this board, so please do not come off as a bully and throw me off.

BUT, could you explain to me the difference between NESCAC football teams being 'in' d3 (but never playing anyone else in d3) and Jack Sikma 'not' being in d3 (but playing at a school and in a conference who followed all the rules of d3)?

Aside from a 'technical' distinction, I just don't get it.  And this has NOTHING to do with Jack Sikma, specifically!  I just don't understand the distinction that you are drawing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 11:52:14 PM
You as a college professor should be able to know the difference between following some of the same basic tenets as a group and actually being an admitted member of the group.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2005, 12:00:45 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2005, 11:32:06 PM
As my emoticons made clear, I had NO intention of reviving that argument.

...

BUT, could you explain to me the difference between NESCAC football teams being 'in' d3 (but never playing anyone else in d3) and Jack Sikma 'not' being in d3 (but playing at a school and in a conference who followed all the rules of d3)?

Words speak louder than emoticons, Chuck. I'm asking you now, leave the poor dead horse alone. The ASPCA would like you to stop beating it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2005, 12:13:05 AM
Pat,

I have NO intention of reviving the issue, but I would like to know how the CIRCUMSTANCES differ.

a)  the student-athlete is not at a d3 school, although the school (and conference) adhere to all d3 rules

vs.

b) the conference is officially in d3, but doesn't play ANYONE else in d3

Can you explain to me how b is more d3 than a?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2005, 12:17:05 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2005, 12:13:05 AM
Pat,

I have NO intention of reviving the issue, but I would like to know how the CIRCUMSTANCES differ.

a)  the student-athlete is not at a d3 school, although the school (and conference) adhere to all d3 rules

vs.

b) the conference is officially in d3, but doesn't play ANYONE else in d3

Can you explain to me how b is more d3 than a?

The schools in b) are required to follow ALL Division III rules, no matter what.

The school in a) did not offer basketball scholarships but was never subject to the NCAA's eligibility or compliance requirements. You can't prove they followed "all d3 rules" because there was no requirement for them to do so.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wc2viking on November 11, 2005, 12:54:33 AM
Just bumping in (the Jack Sikma debate?) to thank Keith for a good read in Around the Nation. 

Really sorry about the travel SNAFUs - man, I get homicidal in those #^&%^# airport security lines.  People - You have to take ALL the metal crap out of your pockets!!!! It's really not that hard!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2005, 01:04:35 AM
What I have noticed flying a couple times a year for this web site is that I always get pulled out for extra attention. I'm convinced that it's because I'm flying to Washington Dulles. I have gotten patted down getting onto turboprops in Abilene, Texas, TWICE. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on November 11, 2005, 01:17:12 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2005, 01:04:35 AM
What I have noticed flying a couple times a year for this web site is that I always get pulled out for extra attention. I'm convinced that it's because I'm flying to Washington Dulles. I have gotten patted down getting onto turboprops in Abilene, Texas, TWICE. Sheesh.

i didn't think they actually checked here pat.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2005, 02:37:06 AM
Yeah, man, the only times I've ever flown out of Abilene I got pulled aside. You tell me, coincidence?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: oldpa on November 11, 2005, 03:32:59 AM
You need to stop wearing those turbans when you fly.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 12, 2005, 03:36:09 AM
Better late than never, the Bubble watch has been added to Around the Nation.

Um, spread the word?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 13, 2005, 10:19:16 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 10, 2005, 09:12:38 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 10, 2005, 06:02:29 PM
Ron, are you disagreeing with Junior Assistant Guru K-Mack, who has written that the NESCAC is "small college football at its finest?"

That doesn't mean "at its most competitive" -- that statement takes things like atmosphere and rivalry and tradition into account.

1.  Hey, how do I procure Pat Coleman as my spokesman?  :D

2.  It would seem to me that such a broad superlative as "small college football at its finest," applied to the NESCAC while comparing relative strengths among conferences, would logically have to imply a fair amount of competitiveness.

Speaking of atmosphere rivalry and tradition, I made it up to the Dutchman's Shoes game.  Did you see me waving?  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 13, 2005, 10:35:17 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on November 10, 2005, 10:09:44 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 10, 2005, 06:02:29 PM
Ron, are you disagreeing with Junior Assistant Guru K-Mack, who has written that the NESCAC is "small college football at its finest?"

I respect Keith's opinions and knowledge, but if every conference did what the NESCAC does, Division III football would be a joke.

I wholeheartedly disagree (and you can verify on the "Future of Division III" Board the wholeness of my heart).

Division III members agree to place academics before athletics.  The NESCAC clearly has the academics, and their performance in other sports makes it clear that their athletes perform at the highest Division III levels.  The only difference I see, e.g., is that Colby players get distracted during Bates and Bowdoin weeks, not during the playoffs.

Honestly, I'd be much more impressed with Division III schools on principle if they all followed the NESCAC's lead.  I'd have less fun in late November and December, but I couldn't complain about hypocrisy at schools who publicly claim to place academics ahead of athletics.

I see more hypocrisy in permitting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes to participate in national tournaments than I see in prohibiting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes from participating in five week tournaments during academic crunch time.  But that's just me.

Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on November 10, 2005, 10:09:44 PM
If Keith is a "Junior Assistant Guru" then I guess I am an Associate Assistant Guru, Third Class.   :D

No lie Ron, I searched the D3football.com site to find where you stand in the pecking order.  I had originally written "Ron, are you disagreeing with fellow Junior Assistant Guru K-Mack . . . ?"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 13, 2005, 11:20:18 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 13, 2005, 10:35:17 PM

Honestly, I'd be much more impressed with Division III schools on principle if they all followed the NESCAC's lead.  I'd have less fun in late November and December, but I couldn't complain about hypocrisy at schools who publicly claim to place academics ahead of athletics.

I see more hypocrisy in permitting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes to participate in national tournaments than I see in prohibiting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes from participating in five week tournaments during academic crunch time.  But that's just me.


I think there are quite a few THOUSAND athletes (including many in the NESCAC) who will reject your attempts to ban ALL post-season competition in ALL sports.  Or are you still arguing the bizarre premise (from the board you killed in general d3 topics) that football is UNIQUELY evil?

In the real world (as opposed to whatever universe you live in), the football playoffs are no more (or less) disruptive than the playoffs in numerous other sports.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 14, 2005, 12:15:19 AM
I think it's best to ignore that rant, as it's already polluted one thread beyond repair.

So K-Mack, where you off to this week???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 03:07:39 AM
redswarm: NESCAC is just as illegitimate an organization as the NCAA. Both of them are a conspiracy arguably illegal and certainly designed to limit competition among the colleges, resulting in less choice for prospective and actual students. They both should be disbanded so that each college can act autonomously concerning its athletics offerings. For instance, if a college's students desire to have the college pay its athletes, why should a conspiracy among that college and other colleges prevent that possibility? The stakeholders of that college should be the sole determinants of that issue, and other colleges should stay out of it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2005, 07:10:11 AM
Quote from: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 03:07:39 AM
redswarm: NESCAC is just as illegitimate an organization as the NCAA. Both of them are a conspiracy arguably illegal and certainly designed to limit competition among the colleges, resulting in less choice for prospective and actual students. They both should be disbanded so that each college can act autonomously concerning its athletics offerings. For instance, if a college's students desire to have the college pay its athletes, why should a conspiracy among that college and other colleges prevent that possibility? The stakeholders of that college should be the sole determinants of that issue, and other colleges should stay out of it.

Are you contending that each of the NESCAC schools is not acting autonomously concerning its athletic offerings?  It looks to me as if the opposite is true, and that fact has your and several others' panties in a bunch.

Is NCAA DIII membership compulsory?  I don't understand your complaint.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2005, 07:19:03 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 13, 2005, 11:20:18 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 13, 2005, 10:35:17 PM
I see more hypocrisy in permitting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes to participate in national tournaments than I see in prohibiting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes from participating in five week tournaments during academic crunch time.  But that's just me.

I think there are quite a few THOUSAND athletes (including many in the NESCAC) who will reject your attempts to ban ALL post-season competition in ALL sports.  Or are you still arguing the bizarre premise (from the board you killed in general d3 topics) that football is UNIQUELY evil?

I'm trying to ban ALL post-season competition in ALL sports?  I've never said or implied such a thing.  You're misinterpreting my posts, and since you're a brilliant college professor Dr. Chuck, I have to assume you're doing so intentionally.

I keep forgetting that in the 21st Century, college campuses are the place where free speech and the exchange of ideas are criminalized through speech codes and institutionalized political correctness.  Enjoy your stay in academia, Professor.

I've also never claimed that football is "UNIQUELY evil."  I've not discussed other sports much,  since this is D3Football.com.  I think you're again consciously misinterpreting.

Did you read Keith's column about his trip to the Trinity (CT) game? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 09:16:14 AM
redswarm: You bet I am. Each of the NESCAC colleges is conspiring openly with each of the others to limit the football opponents of the NESCAC colleges, to limit the number of their football games and practices, to limit the dates of their games and practices, to limit the squad size of their football teams and to refrain from post season play, all to the detriment of actual and potential students whose right to have each college attempt to compete (if the college independently chooses) for the students' attendance with the inducements that some or all of such limitations will not prevail at the college or colleges in question is thereby wholly or partly foreclosed. The same  statement applies to the NCAA, only with a different set of limitations. NESCAC and the NCAA are anti-competitive, anti-student and possibly illegal in their agreements and actions.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2005, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 09:16:14 AM
Each of the NESCAC colleges is conspiring openly with each of the others to limit the football opponents of the NESCAC colleges, to limit the number of their football games and practices, to limit the dates of their games and practices, to limit the squad size of their football teams and to refrain from post season play, all to the detriment of actual and potential students whose right to have each college attempt to compete (if the college independently chooses) for the students' attendance with the inducements that some or all of such limitations will not prevail at the college or colleges in question is thereby wholly or partly foreclosed. The same  statement applies to the NCAA, only with a different set of limitations. NESCAC and the NCAA are anti-competitive, anti-student and possibly illegal in their agreements and actions.

Wow Frank, I (sort of) follow your reasoning, but you're nearly suggesting that any agreement between two or more parties is necessarily an illegal conspiracy to foreclose other parties from the agreed-upon transaction.  I don't see any reason to interpret antitrust laws so expansively.

I conspire openly with Wegman's (nod to upstate NY, although we have Wegman's here in Fairfax County VA) to foreclose Safeway from my grocery shopping business.

You would deny colleges the right to limit their intercollegiate athletic competition?  If not the colleges themselves, then who has the right?  Is it an illegal conspiracy by all football teams at every level to schedule games only once a week?

I'm fascinated that you think NESCAC schools' limitation of their football programs is a detriment to the students.  If it is a detriment, could NESCAC schools enjoy such a solid reputation for well-rounded education as to score #s 1 and 2 on the US News & World Report list of Top Liberal Arts colleges?  I'm not suggesting that US News & World Distort is the ultimate authority on roundness of education, but their opinion and analysis do carry some weight, don't you think?

Shouldn't we include the NFL in the conspiracy, since they openly conspire with the NCAA in the operation of the NFL farm system?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on November 14, 2005, 02:50:45 PM
Frank,
Are you suggesting that we apply an law of the jungle mentality to college athletics?  As a college level athlete (baseball) I am mortified at the results of such a step.  Someone needs to make rules for all who decide to compete to abide by.  The rules establish grounds for compititon while giving at least some protection to the athlete. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 14, 2005, 02:53:20 PM
Hey, hey, hey ... let's not bring this discussion to yet another board. If you want to discuss NESCAC politics, go back to the NESCAC board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 04:48:39 PM
To protectors of the status quo: you might be enlightened if you would read my post carefully. Also it would help if you had some substantial knowledge of the antitrust laws. But I'm not going to walk you through it because doing so won't change your minds.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 14, 2005, 06:40:52 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 14, 2005, 12:15:19 AMSo K-Mack, where you off to this week???

I'm trying to talk Pat out of Hopkins-Thiel, but that looks like the winner amongst Wesley-Ferrum, a whole bunch of East games we already have covered and Bridgewater-W&J, which is my vote for competitive game withing driving distance this week, but may have as many as three broadcasts already originating from there. We might be more necessary elsewhere.

As far as the quote "small college football at its finest," I don't believe I ever wrote that.

My own personal opinion on the NESCAC is that the playoffs wouldn't kill one team a year's studies (plenty of other high-quality schools leave the door to the playoffs open) and it would probably give more than it takes away in terms of overall experience. As one e-mailer also noted this week, it's sort of hypocritical to allow your teams in other sports to play in the playoffs but not football ... which is a 5-week commitment in only the rarest of circumstances. Probably more like 1-3 for a NESCAC team most years, realistically. And we're talking about students ultra-equipped to multi-task.

And that said, I think a sharp and talented team is a sharp and talented team. I think Trinity could make an Occidental '04-like run in the East bracket.

But sometimes as a columnist, my job is to tell other people's stories and thoughts, not just my own.

Anyway, I have some e-mails I've been getting that I want to respond to here, I guess in hopes of starting some discussions ... I think discussing the NESCAC here (or whatever issue was raised in Around the Nation that week) is fine by me. :)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 14, 2005, 06:43:05 PM
It seems to me a lot of people really don't understand the D3 playoffs, or the non-relationship between the top 25 and how teams are selected.

Not to slam on this guy by any means. His question is just one of many ... but the only one I've responded to so far:

Quote> After defeating Christopher Newport, and only suffering two losses both of witch to teams that were ranked in the top 25 at one point or
> another, why does Methodist not get any play off consideration?
>
>
>
> xxxxxxxx xxxx
>
> MC Grad & Former Player
xxxxxxxx,
First, the top 25 is completely unrelated to the Division III playoff system. There are 32 spots, including 21 automatic bids set aside for champions of conferences with seven or more teams, and four more set aside for independents or champions of smaller conferences. That leaves just seven at-large bids for runners-up.

Since Ferrum and Methodist tied atop the USAC with a 6-1 record, and Ferrum won head-to-head, the Panthers got the automatic bid. Then, Methodist really wasn't anywhere near one of the top 7 remaining teams in the country, based on criteria like the Quality of Wins index (sort of a strength-of-schedule measurement), record against regional competition, etc.
Without the loss to Salisbury, the Monarchs probably would have been in the discussion, as the at-large bids are almost always snapped up by one-loss teams whose only loss was to the team which won their conference's automatic bid.

Hope that helps. If not, there is plenty more explanation on how the playoffs work on our site, under the Frequently Asked Questions link and on the message boards.

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2005, 09:33:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2005, 06:40:52 PM
As far as the quote "small college football at its finest," I don't believe I ever wrote that.

Keith, you're a victim of your own talent for writing memorable prose:

24. New England Small College (NESCAC): The NESCAC and its presidents, who say they "remain committed to keeping a proper perspective on the role of sport in higher education" allow its football teams to play only the other eight members of the conference in a short season. No playoff participation is permitted in football, though the conference's teams in sports such as tennis, women's lacrosse, women's rowing, cross country and track won national championships last year. But, this is small-college football at its finest.[/i] The conference boasts seven rivalries of 100 meetings or more, two three-team title chases (the CBB between Bates, Bowdoin and Colby and the Little Three between Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams) and The Old Rocking Chair game between Hamilton and Middlebury. (http://d3football.com/atn.php?id=8) (italics added)

Poster's note:  The comely work colleague/Hamilton alumna (circa '90 or so) had never heard of the Old Rocking Chair game.  When was it established, and has anyone been around long enough to remember when it wasn't an Old Rocking Chair?

Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2005, 06:40:52 PM
I think discussing the NESCAC here (or whatever issue was raised in Around the Nation that week) is fine by me. :)

That's a nice thought.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 15, 2005, 03:25:13 AM
I probably should have said I don't believe I recently wrote that.

As much as I like it, Around the Nation can be like test-cramming. I fill my head with a bunch a relevant-at-the-time stuff, and then once it posts and a new week is played, I flush my brain and it's like I never knew any of that stuff.  ;D

OK, maybe not that bad. But I don't remember writing about the Old Rocking Chair game any time this year ... perhaps you sourced where I wrote it back there, and on rare occasion stuff I never wrote gets edited into ATN ... usually for the better though :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 15, 2005, 04:58:43 AM
K-Mack: I'll buy a bottle of that NESCAC snake oil!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 15, 2005, 08:58:57 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 15, 2005, 03:25:13 AM
I probably should have said I don't believe I recently wrote that.

OK, maybe not that bad. But I don't remember writing about the Old Rocking Chair game any time this year ... perhaps you sourced where I wrote it back there, and on rare occasion stuff I never wrote gets edited into ATN ... usually for the better though :)

Around the Nation, Nov. 7, 2002. (http://d3football.com/atn.php?id=8)

I don't understand why you're backpedaling from that opinion.  I think you were 100% right about the NESCAC three years ago.  Now, after witnessing NESCAC football firsthand, you've strongly hinted that Trinity belongs in the D3football.com top ten.  From here, your opinion looks more authoritative today, not less.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 16, 2005, 05:22:00 PM
Keith's latest column is posted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: fijidoc on November 16, 2005, 06:10:53 PM
Not much love for the little giants.  But that is ok and understandable.  I think Wabash will surprise most though and get to the regional finals.  Whether or not we can top Mount Union, I don't know but I think we will use home field to our advantage and after beating Albion beat either NCC or Capital in a very tough match up.  Homefied ends up being the difference.  Hopefully Augustana and Mount will be equally abusive to one another so neither team has advantage going into the regional final.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PapaSmurf on November 16, 2005, 07:28:24 PM
My memory isn't always the best but I don't recall Simpson forfeiting the game in 2003.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 16, 2005, 08:12:19 PM
I think it's not that there's not love for the Little Giants, it's just that there's five legit tough teams in the North. Wabash is fortunate to host if they get through. I think that any of those top five could win the whole thing and they'd be legitimate tough teams.

And face it the CCIW and OAC have better conference footprints than the NCAC. So Wabash will just have to prove it on the field - which is OK by me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 16, 2005, 09:18:25 PM
Papa Smurf, the reference to Simpson concerned the (Week #11 #25) Simpson team who lost the St Norbert, which is the only post-season win by a MWC team in the Pool Era, 1999-2004.

UMHB was ranked #11 in Week #11, was second only to #10 Bridgewater from the South Region.  UMHB was also the highest ranked team not to recieve a bid.  The other Pool C's in 2003 were #6 Baldwin-Wallace and #9 Bethel. :)

http://www.d3football.com/top25.php?year=2003&week=11
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Foss on November 16, 2005, 10:23:56 PM
Keith, Great job on this week's column. In the "teams we'd like to kick out and invite in" section, personally I liked Whitworth (at least as a team that was talented enough to be in the top 32), although they definately didn't deserve a bid this year after somehow losing late in the season yet again to Willamette. They have played Linfield tough for two straight seasons (11 points and 15 points - hey that's close for the Wildcats!) and by most Linfield fans' account, have the best QB the Wildcats have faced the last two seasons (even over Collins from Occidental, who would probably be second). It's disappointing the Pirates blew their chance and don't have an opportunity to showcase their offense in the playoffs. They have one more shot next year, with many of their top players returning.

By the way, how much better might the seedings have gone if Whitworth had not blown a late 2 score lead to Willamette? Since the committee avoids conference rematches, they would have likely been flown to Occidental, making things a lot more fair across the bracket.

On that note, what is your feeling on conference foes, in certain instances, playing against each other early, especially if it saves money for travel expenses elsewhere in the field? For example, Coe/Central and Concordia/St. Johns should definately be separated because they are pretty equal. But let's say Cal Lutheran would have squeaked in. That would have been a case of Occidental clearly being one of the the top caliber teams, and Cal Lutheran a bottom caliber team (don't know if there are any conference teams who did make it in this year where the same can be said). Would you have had a beef with them playing right away (although Cal Lutheran to Linfield probably would have made more sense) or do you think it's better to just keep conference teams away from each other early regardless of the circumstances?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on November 16, 2005, 11:10:03 PM
I think that one the NCAA pairs up one set of confrence teams up in the first round, it will happen quite regularly after that.  For instance in 2002 #2 Trinity played #3 UMHB in the first round.  Since then high seeds have played each other in the first round quite frequently in the geographicly spread out South and West.  I think that once the NCAA pairs up teams like Oxy vs Cal Lutheran that a St. Johns vs Concordia-Morhead or Hardin-Simons vs UMHB game in the opening round would not be far behind.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2005, 01:19:17 AM
Eh,
I just didn't remember writing that ... and since it was three years ago, that's understandable.

Here's what I think: That Trinity team, no reason they can't do what Oxy did last season in getting to the final eight. A good team in an OK conference can make a run, especially in the east.

Do I think the NESCAC is great? Can't really say, but I think it's a fair shade above the NEFC.

It took me a couple of reads to get where you were going with that. There's nothing to back off really ... There are just some things you don't remember writing, and sometimes the reason is it was a while ago, and sometimes because you never wrote it at all. :)

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 15, 2005, 08:58:57 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 15, 2005, 03:25:13 AM
I probably should have said I don't believe I recently wrote that.

OK, maybe not that bad. But I don't remember writing about the Old Rocking Chair game any time this year ... perhaps you sourced where I wrote it back there, and on rare occasion stuff I never wrote gets edited into ATN ... usually for the better though :)

Around the Nation, Nov. 7, 2002. (http://d3football.com/atn.php?id=8)

I don't understand why you're backpedaling from that opinion.  I think you were 100% right about the NESCAC three years ago.  Now, after witnessing NESCAC football firsthand, you've strongly hinted that Trinity belongs in the D3football.com top ten.  From here, your opinion looks more authoritative today, not less.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2005, 01:20:53 AM
By the way, I got a lot of good feedback about Trinity, but I lost a ton of it in a recent computer crash and can't seem to recover any e-mail between 11/9 and 10/11.

Could killed any folder of e-mail from any time, and it took the most recent D3 e-mail ... figures.

Let me catch up ... I'm sure some reaction to suprises & disppointments is out there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2005, 01:29:01 AM
Quote from: smedindy on November 16, 2005, 08:12:19 PM
I think it's not that there's not love for the Little Giants, it's just that there's five legit tough teams in the North. Wabash is fortunate to host if they get through. I think that any of those top five could win the whole thing and they'd be legitimate tough teams.

And face it the CCIW and OAC have better conference footprints than the NCAC. So Wabash will just have to prove it on the field - which is OK by me.

Agreed, smed ... nothing easy about the top five there, and you gotta have balls to pick someone besides Mount Union, even after the past few years.

I like Wabash ... we shall see. Definitely nice line play, won't be easy to run on ... and I don't think Monon was their best game offensively, and a lot of that was probably attributable to a pretty good DePauw D.

I'd like to see more North Region games than I will be able to, put it that way. Cap-NC is my favorite round 1 matchup.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2005, 01:40:06 AM
Foss,
Lots of good points and questions.

As far as conference rematches, my feeling is that there's 32 teams, let's get creative ... but then again, I don't foot the bill either. I hate to have the scenario of a conference on a particularly strong year eliminating itself ... like the year John Carroll was moved East and won it. That I like, gives teams a chance to prove themselves against good competition ... plus, it's kind of a more fair representation, seeing teams for the first time. Mike Clark of Bridgewater has seen Marty Favret's offense since the mid-90s, couple that with his team's talent and he can slow it to 28-35 points allowed ... but Clark told me once if H-SC ever gets in, they are going to hang 50 on someone who has one week to prepare for them.

So in that sense, the new matchups are good. And even in the Cal Lu-Oxy scenario you mention, it seems unfair for the Kingsmen to not see how they perform against someone else since they already know how they stack up against Oxy.

As far as Whitworth and Willamette, I think the two of them would be well-served by playing an all-D3 schedule, which we know is easier said than done. Because with Linfield, Whitworth, Willamette and PLU, three of those four are almost always having an "up year" so the conference splits its losses ... playing other d3 teams would open the door for 7-1 in-region records, even though techinically losses to Asuza and E/W/S Oregon don't hurt. Maybe Menlo, Colorado, a Texas team and an WIAC team each year would be a good non-conference schedule, and you still keep one local rivalry or SCIAC trip.

I dunno. I thought Wheaton and Whitworth was where the bubble ended ... but I would like to see Clark play. Been to the Pine Bowl actually, but not on game day.


Quote from: Foss on November 16, 2005, 10:23:56 PM
Keith, Great job on this week's column. In the "teams we'd like to kick out and invite in" section, personally I liked Whitworth (at least as a team that was talented enough to be in the top 32), although they definately didn't deserve a bid this year after somehow losing late in the season yet again to Willamette. They have played Linfield tough for two straight seasons (11 points and 15 points - hey that's close for the Wildcats!) and by most Linfield fans' account, have the best QB the Wildcats have faced the last two seasons (even over Collins from Occidental, who would probably be second). It's disappointing the Pirates blew their chance and don't have an opportunity to showcase their offense in the playoffs. They have one more shot next year, with many of their top players returning.

By the way, how much better might the seedings have gone if Whitworth had not blown a late 2 score lead to Willamette? Since the committee avoids conference rematches, they would have likely been flown to Occidental, making things a lot more fair across the bracket.

On that note, what is your feeling on conference foes, in certain instances, playing against each other early, especially if it saves money for travel expenses elsewhere in the field? For example, Coe/Central and Concordia/St. Johns should definately be separated because they are pretty equal. But let's say Cal Lutheran would have squeaked in. That would have been a case of Occidental clearly being one of the the top caliber teams, and Cal Lutheran a bottom caliber team (don't know if there are any conference teams who did make it in this year where the same can be said). Would you have had a beef with them playing right away (although Cal Lutheran to Linfield probably would have made more sense) or do you think it's better to just keep conference teams away from each other early regardless of the circumstances?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2005, 01:47:24 AM
I think the "islands" of Texas, Cali and the Pacific Northwest are their own animals. I doubt we'd ever see an unnecessary rematch in the East or mid-atlantic or near Chicago/Minneapolis, etc.

The one year Witt and Wabash played in the second round was one of the fastest and most unnecessary rematches, but the committee really did a good job with that this year given all the potential for rematch. And since the first round involved just one flight (I believe), you have to say the committee, going by its rules, hit a home run.

Quote from: religion_major on November 16, 2005, 11:10:03 PM
I think that one the NCAA pairs up one set of confrence teams up in the first round, it will happen quite regularly after that.  For instance in 2002 #2 Trinity played #3 UMHB in the first round.  Since then high seeds have played each other in the first round quite frequently in the geographicly spread out South and West.  I think that once the NCAA pairs up teams like Oxy vs Cal Lutheran that a St. Johns vs Concordia-Morhead or Hardin-Simons vs UMHB game in the opening round would not be far behind.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Foss on November 17, 2005, 02:35:31 AM
Thanks for the reply, Keith. And to clarify, I didn't want you to get the feeling that I am for conference rematches, which I'm definately not. I meant, that I might tolerate them, in certain situations (like where the conference #1 was thought to be much better than conference #2) if it meant the difference between the committee being able to pay for more flights elsewhere in the region (or even moving teams to other regions where flights might be necessary).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PapaSmurf on November 17, 2005, 07:36:53 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 16, 2005, 09:18:25 PM
Papa Smurf, the reference to Simpson concerned the (Week #11 #25) Simpson team who lost the St Norbert, which is the only post-season win by a MWC team in the Pool Era, 1999-2004.

UMHB was ranked #11 in Week #11, was second only to #10 Bridgewater from the South Region. UMHB was also the highest ranked team not to recieve a bid. The other Pool C's in 2003 were #6 Baldwin-Wallace and #9 Bethel. :)

http://www.d3football.com/top25.php?year=2003&week=11
Thanks Ralph.  I was being sarcastic.  I was at that game.  SNC wasn't "given" anything.  They earned it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2005, 03:28:21 PM
That's some pretty serious nitpicking.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PapaSmurf on November 17, 2005, 07:22:48 PM
I re-read it and realized I missed the point.  I guess I'm just too cynical at times.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: river on November 18, 2005, 01:54:49 PM
The NCAA should change some of its playoff policies about playoff travel re the "islands" of Texas, Cali, and the Pac NW.  Granted the policies worked better when there were no islands and only the "mainland" of New York, New Jersey,  Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, Minnesota, Virginia, etc. where playoff scheduling was easier.  But times and membership geography have changed and the NCAA's policies should change also to give the "islands" a fair shake, unless DIII wants to remain a mainly eastern/midwestern regional organization.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: CardinalAlum on November 18, 2005, 02:51:53 PM
Pat,

What game are you going to see?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 20, 2005, 03:41:14 AM
Today was at Thiel.
Next week at UW-Whitewater.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ruggerrat on November 20, 2005, 03:47:09 AM
gheesh Pat, don't you ever sleep?  good work though, makes it a lot easier than it was years ago.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 20, 2005, 03:54:46 PM
Quote from: ruggerrat on November 20, 2005, 03:47:09 AM
gheesh Pat, don't you ever sleep?  good work though, makes it a lot easier than it was years ago.

No, I don't. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: retagent on November 20, 2005, 07:37:14 PM
PCole - Regarding and earlier exchange, I would guess you can't bring me any Yeungling with you to the UWWW/SJU tilt could you?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2005, 10:53:49 PM
Again,
I'll mention that I lost some pretty good feedback on the Trinity column when Outlook Express decided that about 100 of my e-mails weren't good enough for it anymore. Tried a recovery measure, will try a few others.

Until then, here are the latest comments, questions and answers from the ATN mailbag:

QuoteBelow is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
Not Important (bonakai@yahoo.com) on  Thursday, November 17, 2005 at 03:39:38 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: The Real Flaw with the D3 Playoffs
Age: 22
Hometown: Midwest
Team I follow:
Notes: I appreciate how you cover the playoffs: noting the good along with the bad.
A lot of people resort to bash-only journalism when, like you say, this system is
the best in place.  However, the real tragedy is not the number of teams allowed
in... When teams win, it is the good of the WHOLE team, not the 52 guys that play the most.  Granted, the NCAA has to watch costs, but money has far less value than team.
What percentage of players are actually on the sidelines for teams that get in?  If 100 guys are working their butts off and dedicating their lives, why do only 50% get to be part of it?  That is the real loss.  If teams 'A' and 'B' have 200 players collectively but only 'A' gets in, only 25% of the players between those two teams will really get to be a part of the game.  This is wildly unfortunate. 
You guys do a great job, keep it up.  You make the players feel special and the
crowds are well informed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Not important,"
Your opinion is worth sharing, although it would help us if we knew a little bit more about you. Perhaps you yourself were left off a playoff roster or are close with someone who was? In any case, you hit it on the head ... a lot of it is about money, and costs are kept down with the strict roster limits for the playoffs ... and we appreciate the kudos.

Quote> Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
> Joe xxxxx (xxxxxxx@comcast.net) on  Saturday, November 19, 2005 at
> 09:37:44 AM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: 250th win
> Age: 64
> Hometown: Wilmington Delaware
> Team I follow: Lycoming College
> Notes: Did I miss an article on Frank Girardi's 250th win?  Or are you
> planning to write one soon??  Thanks.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,
Frank's 250th was acknowledged on the front page the day of the win, and
there was an item about it in Around the mid-Atlantic the following week
(http://www.d3football.com/atr.php?region=midatlantic)

Other than that though, I don't know of anything planned, save another
mention in the year-in-review. I'm sure you can understand that most of
our energies this time of the year are focused on the playoffs.

Thanks,

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

Quotewe all saw the strength of the CCIW this year with Augustana, North Central, Wheaton, and Carthage all being ranked in the top 25 at some point in the season.
How far do you see Augustana and North Central getting in this years playoffs?
And more importantly how would you see the conference turn out next year? I like Carthage next year which i see having a great offense returning all starters from this year and giving O'Boyle a year under his belt, and the defense even with losing all the seniors still has experience with Moore, Fox, Powers, Shenault,
Lynn, and they played a lot of freshman as well. O'Boyle or Freshman corner Tom
DeBaker in my opinion, one of them should be the freshman of the year in the
conference. If you could reply i would appreciate your opinion. Thanks

Rick

To be fair to Rick, this e-mail is from before the weekend. I liked North Central quite a bit, and believe I said the winner of the NC/Cap game will beat Wabash ... Augustana has a chance, based on what Pat (who's seen them) has told me, and what we know. I actually think all four of the teams left in the North are pretty good and could win another two games if they play well.  It's not as stacked a bracket as the West, but it's not far behind.

As far as next year, that's hard to say at this point since so much can change between now and then, and perhaps Elmhurst or Millikin could find some consistency next season.

I think the 21-3 out of conference record is the really telling stat about the CCIW's strength this year.

There's supposed to be an article about the CCIW's strength in the Elmhurst student paper, but I can't find it online yet.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on November 21, 2005, 11:31:47 PM
Based on your glowing review of the Clamorin' clucks, a few of those lost emails may've been solicitations by Trinity College for further contributions.

;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 22, 2005, 12:24:00 AM
Gordon,
thanks for your contribution.  ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2005, 05:26:53 PM
The new ATN was posted this afternoon, by the way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on November 23, 2005, 05:40:59 PM
QuoteAt plus-11, Hobart is the third-best remaining playoff team in turnover margin, behind Augustana and Union.
Fourth best remaining team in turnover margin, behind Augustana, Union, and LINFIELD!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: kubiack78 on November 23, 2005, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: cawcdad on November 23, 2005, 05:40:59 PM
QuoteAt plus-11, Hobart is the third-best remaining playoff team in turnover margin, behind Augustana and Union.
Fourth best remaining team in turnover margin, behind Augustana, Union, and LINFIELD!

and UWW
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Llamaguy on November 23, 2005, 06:29:59 PM
OK K-mack you know I have to give you grief atleast once a year! ;D

Good call on picking against Bridgewater once again. Lets see they have been in your Top 25-35 all year since a 1-pt loss to McDaniel in Week 1. Picked W&J last week and Thiel this week. Eventually you will get one right and it most likely would be next week against your pre-season Nat'l Champion pick in Texas. You know I'm just giving an ex-ODAC'er a hard time. The beauty of it all for BC is this post-season is just an appitizer as next year we will be even better and a legit Top 10 team! ;)

I'll be cookin' some kick-butt barbque chicken at the Stagg Bowl this year. Make sure to stop by Stone Station and grab some before you go into the booth. See you there. It will be "The Great D3 Tailgate Party" once again this year!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2005, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: kubiack78 on November 23, 2005, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: cawcdad on November 23, 2005, 05:40:59 PM
QuoteAt plus-11, Hobart is the third-best remaining playoff team in turnover margin, behind Augustana and Union.
Fourth best remaining team in turnover margin, behind Augustana, Union, and LINFIELD!

and UWW

Not per-game. UWW is plus-12 in 11 games, Hobart is plus-11 in 10 games. That's how the NCAA ranks pretty much every stat, on a per-game basis.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PittTBCW on November 23, 2005, 06:55:39 PM
Good Job as usual!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2005, 08:26:41 PM
Hey,
Grief is fine, as long as we're all still friends in the end / no hard feelings.

I actually really like Bridgewater, and I'd be happy to see them represent the ODAC. I think if either the Eagles or Tomcats think they've got an easy game coming up, they're kidding themselves.

When you make picks, you have to go with one or the other ... I could be wrong on the first five games on the list and not feel that bad about it. These are all good teams.

Would not suprise me in the least to see Bridgewater win ... I will stand behind my top 25 though, as the Eagles schedule was not really that great until the ODAC started improving late in the season, and the fact that they lost to McDaniel who ended up not being very good hurt their status ... but anyway, they'll be in the final top 25, as usual.

Seems like everyone in Va. is looking at next year.

Quote from: Llamaguy on November 23, 2005, 06:29:59 PM
OK K-mack you know I have to give you grief atleast once a year! ;D

Good call on picking against Bridgewater once again. Lets see they have been in your Top 25-35 all year since a 1-pt loss to McDaniel in Week 1. Picked W&J last week and Thiel this week. Eventually you will get one right and it most likely would be next week against your pre-season Nat'l Champion pick in Texas. You know I'm just giving an ex-ODAC'er a hard time. The beauty of it all for BC is this post-season is just an appitizer as next year we will be even better and a legit Top 10 team! ;)

I'll be cookin' some kick-butt barbque chicken at the Stagg Bowl this year. Make sure to stop by Stone Station and grab some before you go into the booth. See you there. It will be "The Great D3 Tailgate Party" once again this year!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2005, 08:31:17 PM
And yeah, we need to revise our pregame to include a live report from the color guy at the tailgate.

"Just want the listeners out there to know that this barbecue is mm mm good!"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Llamaguy on November 23, 2005, 09:18:31 PM
Yeah I'm with ya. I told "The Kid" who I am playing in the pick'em this week I could easily go 2 and 6 with the games coming up this weekend. As you said its all in good fun. And the beauty of our Virginia team is we can look toward next year and we are still playing this year. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2005, 06:36:32 PM
Well since you were keeping score, i think I counted myself at 5-3, 18-6 overall for the tournament ... and I'd guess my losses (Hobart/Cortland, both Bridgewater, etc.) were mostly either-way games, except Wesley. That was a shocker.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2005, 06:43:14 PM
Time for the weekly feedback review.

Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Respect
Age: 64
Hometown: Wyoming, DE
Team I follow: Wesley
Notes: Maybe now that Wesley put up 46 on the team that only gave a total of 26 in quite a span, maybe you and the others at D3 will give this team some
respect.  You and others keep playing up the loss to Brockport and hardly ever
mention the fact that they waxed Salisbury 63-19 when Salisbury was ranked and Wesley was not ranked.  What is it that Mike Wilbon says on PTI, how about
giving Wesley some "dap".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was checking my D3 mail from a place which does not have a sent mail folder, so let me summarize my response:

"I don't think anyone's mentioned the Brockport loss any more than the Salibury win the next week, and the margin of both and fact they were back to back make them that much more amazing.

I admit, I thought Wesley was the weakest team left, or at least the team with the worst chance of winning this week.

Wesley definitely earned some respect in Texas ... emphasis on earned."

More later, but since that one was relevant to the above post ....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 27, 2005, 06:49:30 PM
This week's Immediate Thoughts:

QuoteWith every passing week, the Wesley 47-0 debacle loss at Brockport State gets more and more puzzling. How could this team go up to Brockport, field conditions aside, and not put up one single point? My trip to Wesley the next week to see them pound Salisbury began the puzzlement ...

Our Wesley/Salisbury game story (rewritten press release with quotes I gathered at the game):

QuoteDOVER, Del. — Wesley scored 35 points in the second quarter and rebounded from its worst defeat in 16 years to roll past No. 17 Salisbury 63-19 on Homecoming at Wolverine Stadium.
...
"We went from the worst day to the best," said Wesley coach Mike Drass, referencing last week's 47-0 loss at Brockport State. "This week was a life lesson for us."

Week 10 front page:

QuoteWesley rebounded from a tough week as well, pasting No. 17 Salisbury 63-19 seven days after Brockport beat the Wolverines 47-0 (photo gallery).

This week's Around the Nation:

QuoteWesley at Mary Hardin-Baylor
The Wolverines are coming off a dominating playoff win, and three in row overall, by scores of 63-19, 59-13 and 59-14.

(This doesn't even mention the loss!)

I think we're in good shape.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2005, 07:06:44 PM
Yes,
not to mention it was the entire lead topic of Around the Nation a few weeks ago, when St. Olaf was also coming off a bad loss but had a chance to win and pretty much earn a playoff berth.

I didn't really think that was a big debate. Most, or many, fans perceive slights against their team as 10 times greater than the props.

I've definitely learned that over the years, but it makes you make sure you are being balanced.

"Disses" stick in people's memories, while credit given is passed off as normal, since the viewer tends to think that should have been that way.

I am like this from time to time about the Philadelphia Eagles, and it's kind of interesting to be able to step back and analyze how being a semi-rational fan is different from being trained to be rational and consider both sides.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2005, 07:31:11 PM
Yeah K-Mack, the Iggles are the Iggles, but the Cowboys are America's Team :D :D :D ;D 8) ;)


even if Jerry Jones owns them.  He needs to let real  football people run the show, just like Clint Murchison did!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on November 27, 2005, 07:51:48 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2005, 07:31:11 PM
. . . the Cowboys are America's Team.

Yes, they are are ... but only in Dallas. The rest of the country mostly ignores them and their arrogance.  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2005, 08:43:18 PM
Well, here in D.C., everyone that doesn't like the Redskins seems to like the Cowboys, perhaps just to annoy each other. Followed closely by the Ravens, Steelers and Eagles/Giants, they're all pretty numerous here, but it's 95% Skins fans.

Although at FedEx last weekend, there were a ton of Raiders fans out. I would say all of the teams that came up in the 70s and 80s have fan bases that out-reach their regional areas.

As soon as I see a Cortland window sticker on my drive to work, I'll believe D3 has the same reach as the NFL ... Wait, that happened today.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 27, 2005, 10:29:43 PM
The Cowboys were America's team when CBS broadcast their games every week to most of the nation. It seemed that Pat Summerall and Tom Brookshier were their house announcers.

You will find Raiders, Cowboys, Packers, Vikings, Bears, Dolphins, and Steelers fans everywhere, it seems.

Do we have a topic?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2005, 10:56:53 PM
Here's a new topic, from the mailbox, and my response:

Quote-------------- Original message --------------

> When you list Trinity's (Conn.) winning streak of 30 games ahead of
> Linfield's at 22 you are comparing apples and oranges because Trinity does
> compete post-season. By definition every team but one that competes in D3
> post-season play will have one loss in the season. For the losers, a chance
> at a new streak begins with zero wins while each year's national champ's
> streak begins with accumulated wins from the previous season(s).
>
> A more equitable measure would be a regular-season games streak. Probably
> hurts Linfield, but so be it.
>
> Brad Thompson, Ph.D.

Brad (Or Dr. Thompson?),
I'm well aware that Trinity is an exception to the rule, and I believe most readers know that longest active winning is comparing apples and oranges in that sense. I'm almost certain I've mentioned that in the lead-in to the Streak Watch statistic at least once this season, using almost the exact words you used (Yeah, I found it here, in the Week 1 column ... http://www.d3football.com/atn.php?id=73), and there was a whole Around the Nation about Trinity and the streak/no playoffs thing late in the season. I believe it gets a little repetitive if I keep mentioning that each week, so I try to find something new -- hopefully that most readers don't already know -- under that Streak Watch header each time.

That said, as-is, it is not inaccurate. It is the statistic I'm presenting. What you're asking is an entirely different stat, which as you acknowledge, may bring several other teams into the mix. I would basically have to go back to square one to nail that all down, and while it can be done and probably would be worth my time and yours to look into it, I don't know if I'll be able to get to it any time in the near future. Maybe in the year-in-review.

Thanks for your interest in the column and the site.

--
Keith McMillan
D3football.com National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2005, 02:43:52 AM
Hmm. Can't tell if this response was smarmy and sarcastic or serious, but no big either way.

QuoteDate: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 00:25:44 -0500 (EST)

I see your point, but because I'm not a regular reader of your column or
D3football.com, I guess you are expecting me to go back to the beginning.
Not something I'm ready to commit the time to do, I'm afraid. I'll look
for the year-end wrap-up.

Well,
I'm not expecting you to go back to day one, but I did provide that link specifically for your enjoyment, since what we said was so similar. If you scroll down to the Streak Watch in the Week 1 column, I think you'd find it interesting.

And I'm not asking you to do my work for me, just to understand that there are regular readers who see the statistic every week, updated, and that I have to keep them, as well as first-time readers, in mind.

--
Keith McMillan
D3football.com National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com

FYI,
what ATN said in Week 1:

QuoteStreak watch
Given the playoff system we have, only one team can end the season with a win streak worth caring about, and the national champion is not guaranteed an undefeated season. But Linfield does enter on a 13-game roll. The only streak longer is that of Trinity (Conn.), which is part of a conference that does not participate in the football playoffs and is riding a 22-game win streak. With just seven starters back, however, the Bantams should find it difficult to finish the season with the streak at 30 games, still intact.

Yeah, um, ignore that last part.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 30, 2005, 11:27:26 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 27, 2005, 08:43:18 PM
Well, here in D.C., . . . it's 95% Skins fans.

Since 95% of the local population is not "from" D.C., the Redskins are just about the only thing that brings the area together.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 01, 2005, 08:24:09 AM
QuoteNo. 16 Capital at No. 5 Mount Union
Vitals: In the "North" bracket, the 10-2 Crusaders, in the playoffs for the first time since 1987, take on the 12-0 Purple Raiders.

Mike Gibbons is "a beast" at defensive end ...

Finishing up late last night K-Mack?

I think ONU would have something to say about the 12-0 Purple Raiders, and Mike Gibbons is a LB, although he may have looked like a DE vs. Auggie last week. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 01, 2005, 09:15:26 AM
K-Mack:  Don't worry about the typo on Gibbons.  You got the most important part right.   

He is a BEAST! 

Albeit a small one at 5'-10", 190 lbs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 01, 2005, 10:21:36 AM
Quote from: hscoach on December 01, 2005, 09:15:26 AM
K-Mack:  Don't worry about the typo on Gibbons.  You got the most important part right.   

He is a BEAST! 

Albeit a small one at 5'-10", 190 lbs.

Must be something in the water up there in Mentor, OH. MUC seems to find some stud players from up there on the Lake.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 01, 2005, 04:37:21 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on December 01, 2005, 08:24:09 AM
Finishing up late last night K-Mack?

Um, yes, although I can pass the buck since that was from the "insider" interview.

Then it could probably get passed back as a misquote, huh?

I'll be tinkering with it in the next hour or so, if that helps any.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 01, 2005, 05:32:13 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 01, 2005, 04:37:21 PM
I'll be tinkering with it in the next hour or so, if that helps any.

Actually never got around to it. I can fix the LB thing though.

Stupid day job.

(What? It's pay day? Just kidding day job  8) )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 02, 2005, 10:19:08 AM
LOL, no hurry. We all know the Truth. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 02, 2005, 06:04:31 PM
K-mack  Thank you!!!!! You probably didn't know that your Around the Nation from last week made it to the Wesley bulletin board before the MHB game and was an inspiration. It was mentioned by a few of the players in some of the follow up news articles out of Delaware. I believe the statement regarding Welsey as the weakest team left in the playoffs was the Wolverines. So with your pick of Bridgewater
this week I can imagine that will be seen somewhere.. So thanks again!!! ;D  To bad you haven't had an opportunity to see this Wesley team. I think that would sway your opinion differently.

  I understand why you think the way you do,. BUT i think everyone has put way too much emphisis on the Brockport game. We all know it happened,  even though many people who post on these pages don' t think it possible for a good team to be blown out on a given day with certain circumstances and still be considered a above average team.

  Keep up the great coverage and hope to see you at a Wesley game in the near !!! future.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2005, 11:58:07 PM
Well, sometimes the picks are based on a lot of information, such as conversations with coaches who have played against those teams, or others who have seen them,  seeing the teams myself  ... or flimsier things like statistics and gut feelings.

But I learned long ago that even making picks on a whim (i.e. Thiel in 4 OTs) tends to be good reading. Some agree, some don't, but I just feel like the position I'm in requires me to be the conversation starter. So I go out on a limb, and if that's what it takes some teams to get motivated, more power to them.

But anyone that thinks I sit up nights browbeating myself for getting picks wrong is kidding themselves.

Personally, hearing the score updates from Wesley was a lot more personally exciting than Mount Union 44, Augustana 7. But wait, am I a Mount Union hater then, or lover?

The last two above paragraphs make a great segue to this week's Mail To Share Department:

Quote----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Jebsen
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:38 AM
Subject: mt union

As much as you wish they were 12-0, they were not. They lost to Ohio Northern, remember back when ONU was your assured pick, being picked on by the NCAA, and all that stuff you were tied up on in your opinions. 

Okay, Uncle Condescending. I can't tell if you're from ONU and you want me to make sure they get credit where it is due (and it is) or Mount Union bothers you or you just like to rub people's noses in their mistakes.

I much prefer my corrections to come in this way, but to each his own:
----- Original Message -----
From: Brandon
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: error


QuoteKeith,
In case someone has not pointed it out already, there is an error in your column this week.  As much as I would like it, Mount Union I believe is 11-1 and not 12-0. Just thought I would let you know.

No. 16 Capital at No. 5 Mount Union
Vitals: In the "North" bracket, the 10-2 Crusaders, in the playoffs for the first time since 1987, take on the 12-0 Purple Raiders.

Sincerely,
Brandon Keck

I do this in addition working full-time, raising a son and all that other sob story mess you don't really want to hear. 10 times of out of 10 it involves me working late into the night/early into the next morning, and occasionally I get a little loopy. I have no recollection of writing 12-0, but clearly it's there, so it'll be fixed if it hasn't been already.

(Bright idea for self: Separate e-mail address for typos/factual errors)

But Harry, it's a typo. Since my "wish" isn't true, does that mean Christmas is ruined?

If only I ruled the world like this board (which I actually don't rule, but play along with me here), there would be Karma plus one for Mr. Keck, and Smite minus one for mean old Mr. Jebsen.

Carry on.

(More later, but I'm guessing I see about 75 Year in review e-mails, so this might take a while.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2005, 11:59:08 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on December 02, 2005, 06:04:31 PMKeep up the great coverage and hope to see you at a Wesley game in the near !!! future.

How's 12 hours for ya?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Sabretooth Tiger on December 03, 2005, 07:59:37 PM
Technical question:

Am I the only one that is finding the Northwest board frozen from just before the end of the game?  I can reply to the WIAC and SCIAC, but no reply button appears for the NW and the last post is mine from less than a minute to go?  Is it me or the board?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 03, 2005, 08:56:20 PM
Quote from: Sabretooth Tiger on December 03, 2005, 07:59:37 PM
Technical question:

Am I the only one that is finding the Northwest board frozen from just before the end of the game?  I can reply to the WIAC and SCIAC, but no reply button appears for the NW and the last post is mine from less than a minute to go?  Is it me or the board?

It was a disturbance in the Force! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jeremybozz on December 04, 2005, 09:59:41 AM
Will CSTV show Wesley at Wis. Whitewater or Rowan vs Mount Union?
  Last year CSTV showed a D3 semifinal I think. I assume they will do the same this year but I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 04, 2005, 10:25:42 AM
  Wesley and Rowan are in the same in the same viewing area for comcast out of Philly, So if it were shown here I am afraid that Rowan would get the nod.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 04, 2005, 10:40:59 AM
They showed a quarterfinal two years ago. CSTV hasn't touched Division III since.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HabsGoalie33 on December 05, 2005, 10:06:28 PM
can you blame them, its not like division III football is something a normal person sets the tivo for. Now me, I would  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2005, 02:19:11 AM
CSTV televised Army-Louisville baseball or some crap and lost all credibility ... almost any football game could draw the rating of a no-name college baseball game.

I'm sure there is data that says "Division I has more fans than Division III" which is technically true, but the loyalty / lack of service factor would make a few D3 games a year worth the effort, I think.

Plus, you could just hire us and teach us TV. Would be easier than having your TV people botch basic information.

Damn, I'm hating.

I often think there is a chicken/egg thing going on. Would ESPN cover D3 football to serve an exisiting fanbase, or would it create a new fanbase by covering D3 football?

Anyway, if you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself. So let's start our own TV network.

I'll donate the first $1 to the cause. Who else is with me?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 06, 2005, 12:56:52 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 06, 2005, 02:19:11 AM
I'll donate the first $1 to the cause. Who else is with me?

I'll kick in $10
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2005, 05:26:12 PM
Sweet, we've got $11 toward a TV network!

From the e-mail box:
Quote----- Original Message -----
From: xxxxxxxxxxxx@aol.com
To: keith@d3football.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:19 PM
Subject: Wesley

Keith:
Wesley/Bridgewater wrong again.  What do you have against Wesley????  They turn you down for admission??

Monte

Monte,
I was starting to wonder when the first Wesley hate mail would arrive. For a minute there, I thought you guys were going to enjoy the victory so much that you'd forget about bashing me.

Nothing against Wesley, my man. I just call 'em how I see 'em, and I was wrong. Twice. Been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again.

Good luck this week.

Keith
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2005, 05:38:34 PM
I think Wesley had open enrollment when you were a senior in high school, Keith. Very unlikely they turned you down. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 06, 2005, 07:50:19 PM
Ahahaha. Here's a towel Keith. Good shot Pa ;Dt
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RowanTexan on December 06, 2005, 09:02:05 PM
Do any of the D3 gurus think that Rowan has any shot at all against Mount Union?

CK
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jdean on December 06, 2005, 09:48:25 PM
Rowantexan:
They did it last time they were Alliance. Lets say their odds are better than your odds of having zero karma.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 07, 2005, 12:43:07 AM
Funny.

About the "hate" mail, I've been getting it every week for the past six years, from fans of all kinds of teams. Unless it says something really original, I can't say it really resonates ... But I do find it funny that I get a lot of "told you so" mail from people who aren't telling me anything.

Don't flaunt your superior knowledge because you happen to be a fan of the team that won. If you didn't know a single thing about the opponent, but you "just knew" your favorite team was going to win, your zinger carries no weight.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 07, 2005, 04:16:03 PM
Gotta be fair here, my Wesley mail was not "hate" mail at all, apparently.

Which means I'm still waiting.  :'(

QuoteTo:  Keith@D3football.com
Subject:  Re: Wesley
Date:  Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:21:23 AM   

Keith:
Hardly "hate mail."  I was just hoping for a bit of "dap" for those guys after they beat your favorite, UMHB.  I think you predicted UMHB would beat us by 20!

No matter what happens Saturday, they have had a SUPER year.  Their three playoff game wins so far by scores of 59-13, 46-36-but really 29 since UMHB's last score was with one-second left and the game won and blowing out Bridgewater 46-7 should at least call for a kind word or two from you and the others.  Interesting that the ESPN show referred to Wesley as the "sleeper team" but all the writing did not give us ANY "dap."  It is like you and others thought a 46-36 over UMHB was a fluke and that Bridgewater would take us apart with their "powerful one/two running attack" and they could handle our offense because they had some success with other teams.

It would have been nice just to see something like "although I think Bridgewater will probably win they need to be careful with Wesley" rather than Wesley will be "us-against-the-world-ed-out!"

You do a great job with your column and I enjoy the D3 web site.  I hope to see you at the Stagg Bowl.  Go Wolverines!

Monte

Monte,
I'm sorry about the mis-classification. I'm just so used to the rub-your-nose-in-it mail.

There will be plenty of dap for Wesley this week ... and I'm sorry that I wasn't clear about the victory over UMHB being very impressive. The early score, as we were hearing it from the game I was at, could be attributed to turnovers, we figured ... but every time we checked back, there'd been more scoring, but UMHB wasn't getting any closer.

If you'd seen UMHB take down Mount Union last year, you'd have been high on them still too. But Wesley really has the line to match up with Whitewater, I think, so that might be the better game of the two. And maybe I will see you at the Stagg Bowl.

The column should be up Wednesday night / Thursday morning sometime.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 07, 2005, 05:20:59 PM
OK, I'll bite:  what the heck is "dap" ?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2005, 05:24:12 PM
Dap is a leading manufacturer of caulks and sealants.

http://www.dap.com/

Apparently Wesley has figured out how to shut down the Crusader offense.

I am going to buy a whole case of the stuff for the McMurry coaching staff next year! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 07, 2005, 05:39:27 PM
They certainly sealed the red zone up, that's for sure. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 07, 2005, 08:57:39 PM
I believe in the vernacular, dap is a synonym of run. As in getting some run. Or props.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2005, 09:34:35 PM
Oh Pat, that is bad not good news for Dap.  They have been working on their reputation for 140 years as a caulking or sealant that won't run!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 07, 2005, 09:55:55 PM
a lil DAP 'll do ya!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 07, 2005, 10:02:04 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on December 07, 2005, 09:55:55 PM
a lil DAP 'll do ya!!!

"or watch out, the gal's 'll all pursue ya!!"

I f you don't complete a jingle, it may haunt you forever! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2005, 11:04:36 PM
"greasy kid's stuff"...  ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 08, 2005, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2005, 11:04:36 PM
"greasy kid's stuff"...  ::)

So true, but damned if I was gonna have that jingle in my head for the next week! ;)!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2005, 08:22:30 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 08, 2005, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2005, 11:04:36 PM
"greasy kid's stuff"...  ::)

So true, but damned if I was gonna have that jingle in my head for the next week! ;)!

"They'll love to run their fingers through your hair."

Enjoy your week! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 08, 2005, 08:43:33 AM
KMack -

I do like the idea of moving the Stagg Bowl, but make it a neutral site.  The only problem I can see is that if you move it to an NFL stadium or something like that the crowd will seem non-existent, even if it is 10,000 or so.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2005, 09:17:20 AM
Kmack, on the other hand, there is not a venue that beats Salem on these criteria:

1) Community support!!!!!!!!!!!! We cannot under-emphasize Salem's support!
2) Proximity to the largest number of D3 football fans (who are concentrated within 200 miles of a point on the line between between Chicago and Philadelphia).  Fans can get to the game!
3) Acceptable December weather, because no one has a decent small dome/indoor venue in that geographic region.

Oops, my bad!  That is what he said in the article.  I came to the ATN message board from the Hoops side this am.  I should have read the Football front page first! ::)  ::)  ;D  :D  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D O.C. on December 08, 2005, 09:57:46 AM
Perhaps starting in January we could regurgitate Burma Shave signs here as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 08, 2005, 10:10:08 AM
The only problem I have with Salem is that's it's not close to a major airport.  It ain't cheap to make a last-second reservation if you're a fan of a West or (sometimes) South team, and if you end up having to fly into DC that's a 3-4 hour drive on top of the flight.   That said, I don't think that outweighs the good job the folks in Salem do supporting the game and the otherwise good location for the majority of the teams that get to play.

I don't see ANY advantage to playing in a big NFL stadium, plus it would simply cost a fortune to rent one of those places.  You show the final on TV and it would look like there are about 16 people at the game.  Let the AA spend the money instead on rational first round pairings  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 08, 2005, 11:40:14 AM
I think we all agree that it should be in no big stadium (or at least with much of the seats tarped off).

Ralph, great points!  ;D

Ron, the major airport thing is a big deal ... although don't most schools that fly (a la Wesley to Whitewater this week) offer seats on the charter and/or add another charter, at cost, for fans?

Since I've never had to fly to a game short notice, I'm not sure what that answer is.

I suppose moving the game isn't a terrible idea if there were a host city (a lot goes on behind the scenes volunteer-wise) and an acceptable venue in a more centralized location ... Pat always says the D3 headquarters should eventually move to Columbus, Ohio, which is roughly the population center as well as the geographic center of Division III.

Always great to sign on and not see the ATN board flooded with messages about the mistakes I made :)

And dap, by the way, loosely translates to props, respect, recognition. Giving someone some run, or some burn, however, translates more frequently to getting playing time.

Glad I could be of service.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 08, 2005, 06:30:31 PM
like I  a lil DAP 'll do ya!!!  ahahaha
I could use a lil DAP..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 08, 2005, 06:32:49 PM
  K-Mack

I see you are going with the 3 pts. home advantage. I am looking forward to listening to this game.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RowanTexan on December 08, 2005, 06:53:19 PM
They should play it SMU's stadium in Dallas.  Perfect size venue-geographically in the middle of the US- 2 major airports- good media city (thats about to lose Texas-OU) plenty of entertainment around- more hotels, bars, restaurants then there really needs to be- AND HOT WOMEN EVERYWHERE!

CK
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 08, 2005, 06:56:55 PM
ron: Try flying to Greensboro, NC. Greensboro to Salem is about 100 miles.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2005, 07:22:03 PM
SMU's stadium only holds 32,000 so it would not swallow a respectable crowd, but there would be very little walk-up.

Dallas weather is unpredictable in December.  We just had a mild ice storm that caused the city to slow down overnight.  Dallas schools closed as did several other districts, so people would not have to contend with the ice.

SMU hosted men's and women's D-1 Soccer championships about 3 and 4 years ago..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RowanTexan on December 08, 2005, 07:29:51 PM
yes weather is unpredictable in dallad and today was bad but for the most part the weather is mild in the winter here.  I just believe having it in a larger, more accessible and entertaining city would benefit the Stagg and make for a good road trip for all the fans.

PS Last weekend it was 80 degrees

CK
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RowanTexan on December 08, 2005, 07:30:25 PM
oooops i mean dallas not dallad

CK
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 09, 2005, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: frank uible on December 08, 2005, 06:56:55 PM
ron: Try flying to Greensboro, NC. Greensboro to Salem is about 100 miles.

Frank, I checked Greensboro the time I went - it was very costly due to there only being one or two airlines flying in.  Still worth checking, tho.  I burned a lot of martial karma to go the one time my alma mater played ... not going to happen again anytime soon.  :-[

Dallas would be a terrible place to play a D3 football championship (and I say that living less than 30 miles from SMU).  It would be a major travel burden for at least one of the two schools (from a supporter standpoint) and more often than not both.   I wouldn't give you a plugged nickel for how the "good media" covers D3.  Now, for sports where fans don't travel, great.  It would be nice to see a D3 soccer championship somewhere around here rather than in the Great White North. 

Keith, re the charters I think most schools do, but of course the number of seats are limited and usually the students, parents and family snap them up first (which they should). 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 09, 2005, 02:38:00 PM
Stagg Bowl moves to Syracuse Carrier Dome in 2006. Before Gro is berrated with weak east comments... it's not that far from Ohio.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 09, 2005, 03:51:37 PM
The Carrier Dome would still look mostly empty.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 09, 2005, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2005, 03:51:37 PM
The Carrier Dome would still look mostly empty.

thats true, new york HS football plays their championships there and even with "whole towns" making the trip the dome is pretty empty.

But the location is good, its a nice facility, and no more weather issues.

East Tennesse State (Johnson City not too far from salem) recently dropped DI-AA football but they played in an indoor stadium called the mini dome that is still in use.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 09, 2005, 06:40:17 PM
Enginegro, I considered ETSU in writing my commentary and dismissed it as not having a significantly more advantageous airport (TRI  Tri-cities Airport only Northwest, US Air and Delta) and yet being another 150 miles south and west of the populations centers for those who drive.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 09, 2005, 07:35:43 PM
 The Dome !!! What a great place to watch a game. BUT.BUT.BUT The weather now!!!!! No way will they do it.
Though JET Blue is based there... But driving there this time of year can take hrs. I was took 17 hrs from home in Pa to Syracuse, Normal trip 4 hrs
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 10, 2005, 09:45:37 AM
didn't know where to put this link but this spot still has plenty of eyes on it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/051209

An article about top academic schools and their football programs... not a nice quote about D3 ball in there
Quote
Of the U.S. News' Top 25, five schools compete at the Division III level -- somewhere between Pop Warner and Florida high school football -- and nine more field I-AA teams, the college football equivalent of slapping a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament on a Toyota Camry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 10, 2005, 10:01:01 AM
I suspect the author of this ESPN piece was trying to be funny and satirical -- and with, at best, modest success.

However, there are sports writers -- and they damn well ought to know better -- who do see D3 competition as "somewhere between Pop Warner and Florida high school football" or worse.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 10, 2005, 10:12:31 AM
Yes, that whole piece was written tounge totally in cheek.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: formerbant10 on December 10, 2005, 12:24:22 PM
On another note....Chuck Priore has left Trinity for Stony Brook University!  Bantam Defensive Coordinator Jeff Devanney named new head coach.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 10, 2005, 01:24:38 PM
Does Priore have assurance that Stony Brook is going scholarship DIAA from non-scholarship DIAA?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dea on December 23, 2005, 03:10:08 PM
I noticed that there are 3 D3 players picked for the Hula Bowl. Does anybody know how they are picked? One of the 3 is a TE from UW-Oshkosh who only caught 18 ball for 167 yds this season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 23, 2005, 03:56:21 PM
For TE's, I wouldn't worry about catches and things like that for pro prospects. Wabash had a player (Jamie Bowers) that was the last cut of the Patriots a few years ago (1998, I believe) and played a few years in the Arena League but his stats at Wabash were pedestrian, because the TE and H-Back wasn't featured in the offense. However, one look at him on film and you could see his potential. He did what he needed to do in teh context of the offense.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 23, 2005, 05:10:46 PM
I understand tight ends block occasionally as well. :)

Also, keep in mind, any postseason all-star game is limited solely to players who are out of eligibility.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dea on December 23, 2005, 05:19:31 PM
Thanks guys ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 29, 2005, 12:20:19 AM
Rather than start a new thread, the feature today about blowouts prompts a few thoughts...

1)  There were several "new" teams in the playoffs this year.  In the South, we had Thiel and Ferrum.  Even Wesley had not been in "recent memory".  ;)  The excitement of a "new" team, and the run it may have, is fun to watch.  The Ferrum/Wesley game was a blowout, but to quote that famous American, Robert Leroy Parker, "Who are those guys?" 

2)  Cinderella is fun to watch.  Thiel and Wesley in the South were exciting.  UW-Whitewater seemed to have too much of a "pedigree" to qualify as Cinderella, but they made it to Salem and provided excitement doing it.

3)  Mount Union's blowout over someone is boring.  Wesley's monkey stomps over Ferrum and Bridgewater and near monkey-stomp over UMHB were intriguing.

4)  If the brackets are eliminating the bye and forcing the #1 seed to play the weakest of the Pool A's that geographic proximity will permit in the 1st round, IMHO, then we should have expected 3-4 more blowouts under the 32 team format.  I think that we will continue to see those blowouts.  However, as Pat points out, d3fans are looking to see outcomes that those extra Pool C bids provide us,  the best of the rest that the pundits of that mind clamor to make this a real "tournament" of the best "32" football teams.

In that case, I will take the early round blowouts.  Give me some good quality team like Capital showing why they should be in the playoffs.  The Wilkes blowout by Rowan in the "dubious East bracket", may be one of those blowouts that might have been a bye in some years.  In retrospect, Central played respectably against UW-W.

As I reviewed the 2003 South Bracket, in that 7 point average were an OT win by 1, an OT win by 7 and Bridgewater's defeat of CNU by 23.  The 23 point win was the only victory by more than a TD...very close bracket!

Thanks for the table of the blowouts.  That is a good article to archive.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 29, 2005, 01:12:07 AM
No problem. But do you think that a 1-8 game is that much more likely to provide a blowout than a 2-7 game was in previous years? None of the No. 8 seeds was blown out by 35. (No. 1 Linfield did blow out No. 4 seed Occidental by that margin, however.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 29, 2005, 01:42:16 AM
Actually, I see very little difference in a 1-8 and a 2-7 in most regions.  Thus, I would expect 3-4 more blowouts per year.  (I don't think I made that clear at all.   :( )

In previous years, the #6 was catching the #3 team.  In 2005, that historical #6 team was pushed to #7 in 3 regions and faced the "#2" seed in those regions.  (For that matter, there were several NCAA seedings with which I disagreed greatly, e.g., Ithaca at #7, Monmouth ahead of Central.  Fie on geographic proximity!)

The lowest 4 Pool C teams were #5 Capital, #8 Central (which performed respectably vs. UW-W), #5 Cortland and #6 Wilkes (the poorest showing of all, a 42-3 loss to Rowan).  Those "weaker" Pool C's pushed some weaker Pool A's lower in the brackets!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 29, 2005, 09:14:10 AM
I was surprised by the North seeding as well. I expected Lakeland to be the #8, MSJ #7 and Albion #6. Would that have changed the results? No, not really. But Wabash would have wiped out Lakeland by more than they beat Albion, and Albion may have given Augie a better game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 29, 2005, 12:54:55 PM
Yes, well, Wilkes continued the fine tradition set forth by other Division III teams whom the committee selected over our objection. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 29, 2005, 05:40:50 PM
Pat, you have been forthright in your selection process for as long as I can remember your projections.

I would appreciate your side-by-side comparison the NCAA's picks and their outcomes vs your teams that sat at home.

That might make a good feature article in 2006! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 30, 2005, 02:48:44 AM
We did touch on it in the Around the Nation that ran the week of the playoff openers.

http://www.d3football.com/atn.php?id=84

The sorry for the false hopes award
When D3football.com tells you it's hit on 27 of 28 teams just about every year, and hit on 31 of 32 this year, that means one team out there read our projections and got their hopes up. Here's this year's 'one we missed' and past winners:
2005: We projected Alfred; the committee preferred Wilkes.
2004: We got them all.
2003: We projected UMHB; the committee took Simpson, who promptly gave the MWC its only NCAA playoff win since expansion.
2002: We projected Hartwick; the committee took W&J, which squeaked past second-year CNU and got routed at Trinity.
2001: We picked Menlo and Linfield in Pool B, the committee took Whitworth (0-1) and Ithaca (advanced to regional final). In Pool C, we chose UW-Eau Claire, the NCAA took Montclair State (0-1).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: TheCoach on January 06, 2006, 02:34:15 PM
Does anyone know of any GA positions/student asst. jobs that will be opening at the end of the season.  (D1, DII or DIII).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bisonpride on January 20, 2006, 11:47:46 PM
Check it out for the flash news from Washington Post..

Here's other Ricca story but this time it's about the father, John Ricca and the CUA Football program.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/18/AR2006011802489.html
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tuxguy on January 24, 2006, 06:10:25 PM
I was just reading about Eric Mangini, the new Jets head coach. In Notables 1/23/06 States he is a 1975 Grad of Wesleyan college. It gave his age as 35, can this be right? I was still in High school, and I'm 10 years older than him?  ???

;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on January 24, 2006, 06:45:20 PM
He is 35yo.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tuxguy on January 24, 2006, 07:00:34 PM
Thanks Frank, Me bad......I went back and read it again,  says..... Bill Belichick, a 1975 Wesleyan Grad. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 26, 2006, 11:18:54 PM
Well all,
the time is finally here. I think.

I turned in the year-in-review to Pat earlier this week. It is taking him a couple days to format and edit for publication, but I imagine it would be up by Friday. It's probable that if you're here discussing it, then you've already seen it, and maybe even read through half of it.

The year-in-review took no less than 25 hours to compile (a normal ATN takes about 6-10), so that's where the delay came in. Opening up 55 of last year's categories to fans and readers helped me cover some things I would not have thought of myself (like the Marietta/Baldwin-Wallace game, for instance), but it meant that I was working an hour or two a day until about Jan. 10 (we usually take a break from the Stagg Bowl and start up on this project sometime after New Year's) simply cutting and pasting from people's e-mails -- including those solicited from d3 staff members -- into different category headers. Once I got to there, I started writing ... and chopping, re-organizing, etc. Pat offered to help a few times, and as you can see, Gordon and Pat Cummings added their input, and several fans contributed quite a bit ... but I still took on most of the job, and perhaps bit off more than I could chew.

Pat wrote half and I wrote the other half the first year we did it, which may have been why it was up by Jan. 6. Last year I believe it posted Jan. 27, and this year my goal was the 15th, which we missed by a few days.

But for good reason. Even after chopping down fan submissions and other writers' submissions, and getting rid of a few categories that didn't fit this year or we didn't have anything for, it apparently reached Pat at more than 14,000 words. We tried to break it up into parts and make it as readable as possible, as half that would have been a long read.

A couple things you should know about the year-end, if you care to read this far into this post:

1. Some e-mails and quotes were edited for clarity, grammar and length.

2. I'd love to have a research assistant or two next year, either all season or just for this project. I spent hours just charting how all 231 teams did in comparison to our preseason prediction, for example. We also spent some time researching where Justin Beaver's season fit among the great D3 seasons.

3. I wrote most of the capsules, or tried to source the quoted material where I didn't. But there are some parts written or re-written by other D3 staff, for the record.

That pretty much covers it, actually. I think I've said enough. Time to open up the floor to you all. I'll be answering questions, I guess, and considering your comments here and on the blog for the next week or two, depending on interest.

Hope you enjoyed your insight into the process. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 26, 2006, 11:26:52 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 26, 2006, 11:18:54 PM
...

2. I'd love to have a research assistant or two next year, either all season or just for this project. ...

Wanted: Research assistant.  Must be familiar with Division 3 NCAA Football.  Must have online access to D3.football.com.  50 Karma points for the season. :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on January 26, 2006, 11:56:18 PM
Quote50 Karma points for the season.

Maybe that'll keep me one step ahead of the OAC footballers and the Wooster hoopster posters... ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 27, 2006, 12:02:10 AM
And your own fellow Bashers. :)

Been working on editing. Having some discussions with Keith about some categories. Could be up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on January 27, 2006, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 26, 2006, 11:56:18 PM
Quote50 Karma points for the season.

Maybe that'll keep me one step ahead of the OAC footballers and the Wooster hoopster posters... ;D

And the LLPP, Inc. football posters, with many in triple-digit Karma. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 27, 2006, 03:39:02 PM
http://www.d3football.com/atn.php

105 things to remember about 2005
Posted
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: seventiesraider on January 27, 2006, 06:28:38 PM
Now that I've "EGO SURFED" it to see how many times my name appeared, I can devote the rest of the evening to reading the content. ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bushman on January 27, 2006, 09:10:10 PM
 :)  Excellent!  very enjoyable reading.  Both entertaining and educational.  The  2005  summary  was worth the wait.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Nbrown64 on January 27, 2006, 09:16:56 PM
Regarding #68, I've already e-mailed Keith about this, but there was a slight error in that Wheaton beat Baldwin-Wallce in the 2003 playoffs.  This brings the CCIW's playoff record against "the rest" of the OAC to 1-2 since 1992.  Probably not enough of a sample to tell whether the entire conference is truly the CCIW's glass ceiling, as opposed to just MUC (0-10 in the same time period).

Raider, you beat me by a lot.  3 of my nominations made it, but my name only twice.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on January 27, 2006, 10:54:40 PM
That's a nice piece! Great job!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: seventiesraider on January 27, 2006, 11:07:22 PM
Nbrown64
You deserve more credit. Heck I just went down the list going Mount, Mount vs Somebody, Somebody from Mount, Mount, Larry Kehres, OAC et al.
Yours took a good deal more thought,
It will make the "ego surfing" assignment I do for the one computer class I do more interesting. Suddenly Mr Ross's name is going to come back a whole lot more often. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 27, 2006, 11:25:25 PM
Quote
95. Remember the tailgates: No way we could do justice to naming the best crowd, best fan, best tailgate without planning it and taking notes during the season. So consider yourself warned for next year. Spoil the D3football.com staff (essentially unpaid) in '06 and there could be some postseason recognition in it for you! In the meantime, here's our favorite fan from 2005:

Pat Cummings recognized Llamaguy from the ODAC boards for being a superb fan and representation of the Division III spirit. A Bridgewater rooter, Llamaguy took "Stone Station" on the road, offering barbeque and the like to fans from both Mount Union and UW-Whitewater at the Stagg Bowl. Cummings said he "refused money when Mount/UWW fans tried to give it to him ... it was truly a welcoming moment."

I have been following these sites since January 2000.  D3football/hoops is becoming the virtual glue for the fans of 400+ teams.

Llamaguy and "Stone Station", Stiftungburgers (sp?), diehardfan's and olinemom's cookies and other such acts of friendship and fellowship are becoming the raison d'etre for D3sports.  I can imagine that the friendships will grow in Salem and Springfield in March and quite possibly in Fox Cities, WI in May for Baseball.  (Perhaps those UW-Whitewater fans will return the favor by serving as hosts and hostesses next May.)

Thanks for bringing the enjoyment of the finest amateur competiton in the US to our homes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 28, 2006, 01:02:37 AM
I think you, Gordon and Kid would be my dream team  ;D

That wasn't an offer, was it?

Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 26, 2006, 11:26:52 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 26, 2006, 11:18:54 PM
...

2. I'd love to have a research assistant or two next year, either all season or just for this project. ...

Wanted: Research assistant.  Must be familiar with Division 3 NCAA Football.  Must have online access to D3.football.com.  50 Karma points for the season. :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 28, 2006, 02:25:52 AM
Naw, I think that I would turn that job over to some young journalism intern.  :)  There have to be some young journalism students who would answer a serious externship want-ad.  This is no greater requirement for doing a great job with an adequate set of talents than "passion".  The motto of Southwest Airlines is, "Hire for attitude.  You can teach everything else."

There is no better working college website in college sports.  All of the others have "major issues."  This site will have many of the next generation of sports journalists to have come thru here.

I really see the internet as the new newspapers.  I appreciate that Pat has let me moderate the baseball message boards.  I can see some self-generated baseball content arising from the D3 community.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on January 28, 2006, 02:42:40 AM
That is how you wrap up a football season!  Bravo, K-Mack! 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 28, 2006, 04:10:01 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on January 28, 2006, 02:42:40 AM
That is how you wrap up a football season!  Bravo, K-Mack! 

Thanks. Glad it's going over well. There were some very late nights when I had some serious doubts about my own sanity, and I'm sure the clean-up job Pat had to do on it (just formatting 108 items would drive a normal person nuts) was serious business too.

But as long as the die-hards are getting a lot out of it, I'll keep crawling into bed as alarms go off, amidst the disbelieving stares of my very tolerant wife.

Quote from: Nbrown64 on January 27, 2006, 09:16:56 PM
Regarding #68, I've already e-mailed Keith about this, but there was a slight error in that Wheaton beat Baldwin-Wallce in the 2003 playoffs.  This brings the CCIW's playoff record against "the rest" of the OAC to 1-2 since 1992.  Probably not enough of a sample to tell whether the entire conference is truly the CCIW's glass ceiling, as opposed to just MUC (0-10 in the same time period).

Raider, you beat me by a lot.  3 of my nominations made it, but my name only twice.


Nate, here's your fix. It should be reflected in the column as of now:

QuoteYeah but Nate, two of those four losses came against OAC teams other than Mount Union: North Central to Capital this year and Millikin to Ohio Northern in 2000. And Wheaton beat Baldwin-Wallace 16-12 in 2003 before losing to Mount Union. Wittenberg in 1998 was the only non-OAC team to eliminate a CCIW team, so give the rest of the OAC some credit for being the CCIW's glass ceiling, not just Mount Union.

I'm seeing some other typos as I bounce from item to item ... hopefully I'll get a chance to go through one last time and clean up the dropped words and double words, etc. .... but otherwise, that the last mention of any imperfections.  ;D

Ralph, we could give you a better title, like senior research associate or detail compliance coordinator ... I figured it wouldn't actually be any work for you since you have the handbook memorized and all  ;)

Lastly, I've posted on the blog about the YIR.

Thanks for the positive feedback. Please, carry on ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 28, 2006, 04:15:34 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 28, 2006, 02:25:52 AM
Naw, I think that I would turn that job over to some young journalism intern.  :)  There have to be some young journalism students who would answer a serious externship want-ad.  ... I really see the internet as the new newspapers.

We have a few externs in the field actually. I guess my dream team is just guys I already know I can trust. Who knows if the idea will ever come to pass, just throwing it out there.

Also, I'm glad Gannett sees the internet as the new newspapers. I'd like to be paid for working when paper becomes obsolete.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on January 28, 2006, 08:33:04 AM
Hey, I'm still in favor of paper. What would I do during conferences while waiting for my sessions? Or on an airplane?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2006, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 28, 2006, 04:15:34 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 28, 2006, 02:25:52 AM
Naw, I think that I would turn that job over to some young journalism intern.  :)  There have to be some young journalism students who would answer a serious externship want-ad.  ... I really see the internet as the new newspapers.

We have a few externs in the field actually. I guess my dream team is just guys I already know I can trust. Who knows if the idea will ever come to pass, just throwing it out there.

Also, I'm glad Gannett sees the internet as the new newspapers. I'd like to be paid for working when paper becomes obsolete.

The good thing about these boards is the we D3fans have a forum to enjoy the sports.  The dream team is "kinda known" among those who follow D3.

We all have our routines as soon as we hit the sites.  I check out the Daily Dose, look at the Headlines and lead story, follow the ATN, read the ATR's on the football boards or see what Rhodes Scholar and hopefan have found on the "D3 vs. the hoops world" board, check out the scoreboard, and check my favorite message boards for new news that has been generated by the collective fandom.  This is incredible content, and coming from the fans who love doing this stuff!

This may not have, quote,"the accuracy" of a major daily, but considering the travails with accuracy at the New York Times or the kerfuffle over the ombudsman at the Washington Post, this seems to be credible content.  I doubt that the content is maliciously wrong.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 30, 2006, 03:30:26 AM
Kerfuffle.

Hmm, plus-1 karma or minus-1 for that?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 30, 2006, 08:44:12 AM
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=kerfuffle

As to +1/-1, you make the call  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PittTBCW on February 01, 2006, 04:56:07 AM
Excellent Job on the Year in Review!!!!


You guys did a great job all year and I just want to say thanks and I am sure everyone who visits the D3football.com website would also agree with me that you all are class acts.

Thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: reality check on February 01, 2006, 03:25:23 PM
K-Mack

Great job on the YIR.  It was an interesting read and the format was refreshing; not just the same old list and honorable mentions.  I just wish you didn't have to use such horrible sources as Gordon and Paul for some of your superlatives/awards.   Those guys are shady characters to say the least. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BVHawk on February 02, 2006, 10:52:37 AM
Quote from: PittTBCW on February 01, 2006, 04:56:07 AM
Excellent Job on the Year in Review!!!!


You guys did a great job all year and I just want to say thanks and I am sure everyone who visits the D3football.com website would also agree with me that you all are class acts.

Thanks

Well said!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: joelmama on March 02, 2006, 03:02:46 PM
K,

Nice report.  I enoyed it immensly.

The content on this site is great.  I hope your venture into the preview helped because I feel the overall usefullness of the site has improved.  Of course you need a budget to cover the cost this because unfortunately nothing is free.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on May 26, 2006, 09:29:53 AM
In order to prove my diversity on post patterns, I might as well have the last word on this board as well. I think I've silenced every board (except Liberty League) that I've posted on here at D3sports.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jdean on July 11, 2006, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: AUPepBand on May 26, 2006, 09:29:53 AM
In order to prove my diversity on post patterns, I might as well have the last word  on this board as well. I think I've silenced every board (except Liberty League) that I've posted on here at D3sports.com

The penultimate word.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on July 12, 2006, 04:18:49 PM
Quote

The penultimate word.
Quote

Reminds me of my college days. Intramural football...my team went to the finals and finished second. Volleyball team went to the finals and finished second. Second place bowling team lost in semi-finals. Intramural basketball team was a solid second place.

Now, after 46 days boasting that I had the "last word," it's merely the penultimate word. Seems almost like second place to me.....but not for long!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jdean on July 12, 2006, 04:49:40 PM
You win :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on July 12, 2006, 05:03:52 PM
jdean: Thanks a lot, pal. +K for thee for playing along. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: whodaman on July 13, 2006, 11:05:47 PM
Ex-MacMurray star charged with sexual misconduct

Tribune news services
Published July 13, 2006


A former All-America running back at MacMurray College has been charged with sexual misconduct and child pornography after police say he had sex with a young girl and filmed it.

Steven Ballinger, 26, of Fairview Heights, was charged Monday with predatory criminal sexual assault with a child and child pornography, as well as with drug possession related to the less than 15 grams of cocaine police say they found in his home.

Ballinger remained jailed Wednesday in Belleville on $350,000 bond, four days after his arrest.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 13, 2006, 11:11:59 PM
For the record: Not a D3football.com All-American.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HoosierQBScout on August 02, 2006, 08:40:22 PM
was anyone listening to sporting news radio (may have been espn radio) over the weekend...they were talking about steroids (Bonds, etc.) and some guy called in talking about how the juice is permeating sports at ALL levels...called out Mt. Union point blank saying the team's success is based in part on steroid use...couldn't believe the host let him get away with it...but is that a feeling shared in DIII circles???

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 02, 2006, 09:30:39 PM
I highly doubt it. Drug testing has been involved in the NCAA playoffs since the first playoff game I covered, in 1997. Surely if Mount Union's players were using steroids, someone would have tested positive, considering MUC has been in the playoffs every year since that time and before.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HoosierQBScout on August 02, 2006, 09:33:11 PM
so teams are actually tested? how does that work...each team that qualifies for the post season gets tested??

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 02, 2006, 09:49:09 PM
I'm not sure how the testing policy is applied but, yes, the players test for steroids and other illegal substances (i.e. marijuana, etc).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on August 03, 2006, 08:37:50 AM
My Freshman year at MUC (1990) when we made the playoffs, only 10 players from the winning team were tested in the playoffs.  I don't know how "random" those players were chosen.  They may have upped the number by now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on August 03, 2006, 06:18:05 PM
I know that several random UW-Whitewater players were pulled immediately after their win against Linfield and tested so that would lead me to believe that the NCAA has some kind of procedure in place to test players during the play-offs.  Don't know how frequent it is, how they pick the players and if it is done only with the winning teams.  Never heard of it happening during the regular season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on August 04, 2006, 11:41:30 PM
Now they pull several players at random imediately after the game and test for drugs.  I am not sure if they do so every week or not.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: JT on August 07, 2006, 04:25:13 PM
Quote from: religion_major on August 04, 2006, 11:41:30 PM
Now they pull several players at random imediately after the game and test for drugs.  I am not sure if they do so every week or not.

I don't think there is testing until the playoffs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Augie6 on August 09, 2006, 02:49:51 PM
I played at Augie in the Mid 80's and 1986 was the first year the NCAA did testing during the playoffs.  It was supposed to be a random test, but they randomly managed to test all of our starters on offense and defense.  The test was done immediately after our second round playoff game at Mt. Union.  It was poorly organized and it actually took longer to complete the test on all of our players than it did to play the game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on August 11, 2006, 09:29:57 AM
Quote from: Augie6 on August 09, 2006, 02:49:51 PM
I played at Augie in the Mid 80's and 1986 was the first year the NCAA did testing during the playoffs.  It was supposed to be a random test, but they randomly managed to test all of our starters on offense and defense.  The test was done immediately after our second round playoff game at Mt. Union.  It was poorly organized and it actually took longer to complete the test on all of our players than it did to play the game.

Now that you mention it, the "randomly selected players," who were tested from UWW after the Linfield win were all starters and impact players...... ;) ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Rock on August 11, 2006, 03:33:51 PM
my son was a freshman on the Oxy team that Linfield thumped 2 years ago. He was tested, I remember it took longer than the game also. It appears to be done after your last game in the playoffs, win or lose.

rock
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Wydown Blvd. on August 13, 2006, 07:09:29 PM
Has there been any talk about the new rules to shorten the football games... (and if so what board)?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: xxxxxxxxxxxx on August 18, 2006, 05:29:42 PM
test
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MonroviaCat on August 20, 2006, 01:09:36 PM
Why are they testing players after the game?  Why not randomly during the week as well?  Oh right, NCAA wouldn't spend money to send 'testers' out to various D3 schools...during the week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tuxguy on August 21, 2006, 05:36:19 PM
MonroviaCat,

I think you hit it on the head, the NCAA  doesn't like to spend the $$$$$!

But, do they only check the winning team? Or both? Random starters sounds like to me!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Rock on August 21, 2006, 10:49:02 PM
win or lose or start...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 23, 2006, 03:04:03 PM
What are you guys looking forward to seeing in Around the Nation this year, either issues that need to be written about, games that need to be seen or regular departments you'd like to see?

I have a pretty good idea of where I'm going for Week 1, and when it'll be ready (the day before the Thursday opener, most likely), but your feedback is always considered ...

I already have one new feature in place that, if done right, should knock your socks off.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MonroviaCat on August 29, 2006, 03:23:16 PM
Kmack,  HOw about a feature on unique, weird, or funny traditions around the D3?  I'm sure there must be some good ones out there.  Or maybe something about the stadiums?  As a Linfield alum I found it interesting that there was a Fraternity House in the Stadium and Linfield (though I think it's since moved out...).  Some cool, indirect football stories like that would be worth the read!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: matblake on August 29, 2006, 04:37:36 PM
I like stories about individual players.  It might be interesting to hear from perhaps a graduate affected by last years Lewis and Clark situation (if one exists).  Or maybe a story about a JV player and where he is going to school.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on August 30, 2006, 11:55:45 AM
Quote from: MonroviaCat on August 29, 2006, 03:23:16 PM
Kmack,  HOw about a feature on unique, weird, or funny traditions around the D3?  I'm sure there must be some good ones out there.  Or maybe something about the stadiums?  As a Linfield alum I found it interesting that there was a Fraternity House in the Stadium and Linfield (though I think it's since moved out...).  Some cool, indirect football stories like that would be worth the read!

MC,

The living area that was once a Fraternity house for Kappa Sigma is now called Memorial Hall and is a all-girls dorm.  After the K-Sig's moved out (at least 5-6 years ago)they gutted the place and did a nice update to the living areas.

Here's a link to see the outside of Memorial Hall:  Memorial Hall (http://www.linfield.edu/vr_linfield/detail.php?aut_id=10)

There were not many football players that were K-Sig's at Linfield.  Very Nice guys but the majority that were jocks played club Lacrosse, track, and some baseball players. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Matt Barnhart (kid) on August 30, 2006, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 23, 2006, 03:04:03 PM
What are you guys looking forward to seeing in Around the Nation this year, either issues that need to be written about, games that need to be seen or regular departments you'd like to see?

I have a pretty good idea of where I'm going for Week 1, and when it'll be ready (the day before the Thursday opener, most likely), but your feedback is always considered ...

I already have one new feature in place that, if done right, should knock your socks off.

I'm a big numbers and predictions guy ... so keep that stuff coming!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 30, 2006, 03:03:31 PM
Oh, well I'm full of numbers and predictions, so you should be good.

As for the other stuff, glad to hear it. Keep the suggestions coming.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MonroviaCat on August 31, 2006, 09:47:22 PM
Wildcat 11,
Thanks for the update on Memorial Hall.  Haven't been up to Mac in too long.  I graduated in 1998 and lived my first two years across the street from the K-Sig house.  And of course, everybody knows that the football players were (are) in the OX house if they joined at all!

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on September 07, 2006, 02:36:50 PM
QuoteEvery SCIAC team in action plays an out-of-state opponent this week, and only Cal Lutheran is on the road (at Pacific Lutheran). But the Stags have the best chance to win, . . .
Occidental has the best chance to win since they play Lewis & Clark. Shouldn't even be close.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Trenches on September 07, 2006, 03:55:30 PM
Correction for the streak watch in "Around the nation."

It has Guilford College listed with a 4 win streak. They currently have a 5 game win streak (and 6 of last 7). Not bad for a team that started '05 0-5. Also interesting... they match up this week with Methodist (4 game win streak).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 07, 2006, 09:35:52 PM
Quote from: cawcdad on September 07, 2006, 02:36:50 PM
QuoteEvery SCIAC team in action plays an out-of-state opponent this week, and only Cal Lutheran is on the road (at Pacific Lutheran). But the Stags have the best chance to win, . . .
Occidental has the best chance to win since they play Lewis & Clark. Shouldn't even be close.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that. I'm almost certain it said "one of the best chances to win" when I turned it in.

If not, my bad.

Cal Lu should probably win too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 07, 2006, 09:39:41 PM
Quote from: Trenches on September 07, 2006, 03:55:30 PM
Correction for the streak watch in "Around the nation."

It has Guilford College listed with a 4 win streak. They currently have a 5 game win streak (and 6 of last 7). Not bad for a team that started '05 0-5. Also interesting... they match up this week with Methodist (4 game win streak).

I may have forgotten to add last week's win vs. Ferrum. I had to dig through all the old records of all the teams who had winning records last year but missed the playoffs ... and then all the teams that hadn't won in a while.

Tedious, to say the least, but once you do it once it's easy to update. So I sucked it up.

I will make both fixes ASAP.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 07, 2006, 10:14:11 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 07, 2006, 09:35:52 PM
Quote from: cawcdad on September 07, 2006, 02:36:50 PM
QuoteEvery SCIAC team in action plays an out-of-state opponent this week, and only Cal Lutheran is on the road (at Pacific Lutheran). But the Stags have the best chance to win, . . .
Occidental has the best chance to win since they play Lewis & Clark. Shouldn't even be close.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that. I'm almost certain it said "one of the best chances to win" when I turned it in.

If not, my bad.

Cal Lu should probably win too.

Here's what I have in my last saved version here at work. Since Pat had to fix it anyway (missing the word 'of'), I guess he just cleaned it up a little too much.

QuoteBut the Stags have one the best chances to win, and give the SCIAC a leg up on the NCAC, a conference rated one spot above in ATN's 2006 conference rankings (Aug. 30).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Trenches on September 07, 2006, 11:45:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 07, 2006, 09:39:41 PM
Quote from: Trenches on September 07, 2006, 03:55:30 PM
Correction for the streak watch in "Around the nation."

It has Guilford College listed with a 4 win streak. They currently have a 5 game win streak (and 6 of last 7). Not bad for a team that started '05 0-5. Also interesting... they match up this week with Methodist (4 game win streak).

I may have forgotten to add last week's win vs. Ferrum. I had to dig through all the old records of all the teams who had winning records last year but missed the playoffs ... and then all the teams that hadn't won in a while.

Tedious, to say the least, but once you do it once it's easy to update. So I sucked it up.

I will make both fixes ASAP.

Not a problem. Just didn't want to sell the boys short.  ;)  Great article though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on September 07, 2006, 11:49:46 PM
No problems K-Mack. You do a great job.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 08, 2006, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: cawcdad on September 07, 2006, 11:49:46 PM
No problems K-Mack. You do a great job.

Thanks, I appreciate the extra sets of critical eyes. By the time I finish some weeks, I don't know what's what. It's good to go back and read it a few days after I've cooled off, sometimes I learn a lot!  ;)

Those two fixes are in.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on September 08, 2006, 02:41:48 PM
what about regular season win streaks? 31 teams are going to end their season in a playoff loss.  Not that you'd have to re do the whole list, just mention the top 2-3 reg season streaks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
Quote from: enginegro on September 08, 2006, 02:41:48 PM
what about regular season win streaks? 31 teams are going to end their season in a playoff loss.  Not that you'd have to re do the whole list, just mention the top 2-3 reg season streaks.

You put it together, Juice, I'll run it.

I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

We could just compile it here if you wanted too ... I got that e-mail from Linfield last year and SJU this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

That's pretty much why I ignore it, until it gets to Mount Union status, which was more than 100 IIRC before the loss last year.

Plus then it's a slippery slope to "regular season home winning streak" and other derivations that are even less meaningful.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D O.C. on September 09, 2006, 11:51:47 AM
           Thank-you for the slap.  I am now ready for game day.  8)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 10, 2006, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

That's pretty much why I ignore it, until it gets to Mount Union status, which was more than 100 IIRC before the loss last year.

Plus then it's a slippery slope to "regular season home winning streak" and other derivations that are even less meaningful.

Yeah, I think Mount Union still has a Regular Season Road Winning Streak over 70 games or something...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on September 10, 2006, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 10, 2006, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

That's pretty much why I ignore it, until it gets to Mount Union status, which was more than 100 IIRC before the loss last year.

Plus then it's a slippery slope to "regular season home winning streak" and other derivations that are even less meaningful.

Yeah, I think Mount Union still has a Regular Season Road Winning Streak over 70 games or something...

Are we talking about historical streaks or curent streaks because I seem to recall Mount Union losing to Ohio Northern last year to end the regular season win streak as well as the OAC streak.  Just checking because I was confused when I read the post.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: coocooforcoekohawk on September 10, 2006, 08:04:57 PM
Quote from: religion_major on September 10, 2006, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 10, 2006, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

That's pretty much why I ignore it, until it gets to Mount Union status, which was more than 100 IIRC before the loss last year.


Plus then it's a slippery slope to "regular season home winning streak" and other derivations that are even less meaningful.

Yeah, I think Mount Union still has a Regular Season Road Winning Streak over 70 games or something...

Are we talking about historical streaks or curent streaks because I seem to recall Mount Union losing to Ohio Northern last year to end the regular season win streak as well as the OAC streak.  Just checking because I was confused when I read the post.

They said regular season ROAD winning streak.  Ohio Northern won at Mount Union.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on September 10, 2006, 10:53:39 PM
Quote from: coocooforcoekohawk on September 10, 2006, 08:04:57 PM
Quote from: religion_major on September 10, 2006, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 10, 2006, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

That's pretty much why I ignore it, until it gets to Mount Union status, which was more than 100 IIRC before the loss last year.


Plus then it's a slippery slope to "regular season home winning streak" and other derivations that are even less meaningful.

Yeah, I think Mount Union still has a Regular Season Road Winning Streak over 70 games or something...

Are we talking about historical streaks or curent streaks because I seem to recall Mount Union losing to Ohio Northern last year to end the regular season win streak as well as the OAC streak.  Just checking because I was confused when I read the post.

They said regular season ROAD winning streak.  Ohio Northern won at Mount Union.

Sorry.  My bad.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 11, 2006, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: religion_major on September 10, 2006, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 10, 2006, 07:33:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2006, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 09, 2006, 01:36:31 AM
I'm not sure why I've never embraced that stat as important. I guess because there's so many situations where a team just owns its conference and their regular season streak is/was not news.

That's pretty much why I ignore it, until it gets to Mount Union status, which was more than 100 IIRC before the loss last year.

Plus then it's a slippery slope to "regular season home winning streak" and other derivations that are even less meaningful.

Yeah, I think Mount Union still has a Regular Season Road Winning Streak over 70 games or something...

Are we talking about historical streaks or curent streaks because I seem to recall Mount Union losing to Ohio Northern last year to end the regular season win streak as well as the OAC streak.  Just checking because I was confused when I read the post.

Don't need to reminde me, I was there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on September 11, 2006, 05:55:42 PM
This has probably been on here before but why is Trinity even listed on the win streak deal?  Does it really mean anything when they don't play participate in the playoffs?  It's kinda like Linfield's dominace over the NWC over the last five years...doesn't mean much to anybody but Linfield fans at the end of the day unless you win the Stagg.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 11, 2006, 10:02:44 PM
In my mind it counts just as much as any regular-season win streak. Linfield fans had no problem with regular-season win streaks until a few days ago, I believe.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on September 12, 2006, 12:47:08 AM
Why did I know that was coming and I had a hunch it was going to be from you... ::) ::)  Bad timing but trust me, that's bothered me far before Saturday.  I had no problem with Linfield not being on the list...they lost, in the playoffs.  On top of that, the list on ATN isn't just regular season win streaks, it includes the playoffs where everybody has to play real teams, so they don't belong there anyway.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 12, 2006, 12:56:31 AM
I think if you read ATN, Keith does a great job of explaining that streak:

"Trinity (Conn.) has been able to compile the nation's longest streak by far without having to face any powerful playoff opponents, as a member of the exclusive NESCAC."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on September 12, 2006, 01:01:02 AM
You're right, he put's in the disclaimer.  Still lame. ;) :)

I better get back to rooting for the boys to get things shored up for Saturday!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 14, 2006, 07:16:29 PM
I'll provide the facts, you decide how much it means to you.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on September 14, 2006, 10:28:13 PM
As a Trinity (Conn.) alum, I appreciate the props.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on September 19, 2006, 02:13:40 PM
This is from ESPN.com Tuesday Morning Quarterback (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/060919)


QuoteBonus Obscure College Score: Ursinus 6, LaSalle 2. The Explorers' faithful lament -- if only we'd gotten three more safeties! Located in Philadelphia, LaSalle University has a faculty member who is an expert on Robin Hood.

Bonus Combined Obscure Scores: Saint Francis of Indiana and Saint John's of Minnesota beat Pikeville and Augsburg by a combined 123-0. Running up the score is not saintly behavior!

Running Up the Score Watch: TCU held the boastful Texas Tech to a field goal in a 12-3 victory. Two years ago, Texas Tech relentlessly ran up the score on the Horned Frogs, notching 70 points; TCU had been smarting for vengeance, and by the hammer of Grabthar, they were avenged! Meanwhile Mount Union College -- year-in, year-out home of the worst sportsmanship in Division III -- relentlessly ran up the score on Otterbein, winning 71-14.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 19, 2006, 03:10:21 PM
Hmmmm, so MUC is consistently running up the score, eh?  This idiot must have missed the times LK kicks fields goals on 1st down or a RB hook slides on the 5 yard line to keep from scoring. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dc_has_been on September 19, 2006, 04:07:25 PM
That is an idiot comment.  When I played agianst MUC my freshman year they beat us something like 68-0 & they did everything (unfortunetly) to not run up the score.  We were just that bad at the time!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 19, 2006, 04:17:24 PM
That might be the most regular-season Division III "coverage" provided by ESPN.com since ... well, ever. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 19, 2006, 10:04:36 PM
I thought TMQ was NFL.com, but in any case, that dude doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm not sure why this is on the ATN board, but it's convenient because I ripped him for it once before.

Let me see if I can find the column and passage. It was during the '04 playoffs, I think after the Bridgewater game.

Oh, the magic of Google, even faster than searching my own columns:

http://d3football.com/atn.php?id=66

Under the header Do Your Homework. Third item down, I think.

It was after UMHB won at MUC, he gleefully celebrated their demise as he did apparently after St. John's won in the title game. He even uses roughly the same phrase "frantically ran up the score" vs. "relentlessly ran up the score."

This dude just has a hard-on for Mount Union.

I'll e-mail this guy later in the week, after I finish ATN.

It might sound like a so-called small time D3 guy mad about the dis the way a home-team fan would be, but it's just poor on his part. Since I do basically the same thing he does, with D3 instead of the NFL, I know how it is.

You can't look at scores and purport to know intent. The score itself is a fact, but to chide Mount Union for purposely running up the score as though them just being that much better than their opposition is not a possibility ... tjat's just this dude talking out of turn.

And the fact that there are several documented instances of Kehres kicking field goals on second and goal, etc. makes Easterbrook look that much more stupid.

Frankly, it's embarassing for him. I'm sure since the D3 population is small and won't dent his NFL readership, but I think it's time for him to find something new. He's been on Mount Union's jock, hating unnecessarily, since at least 2003.

Even if he was right, what exactly would it be accomplishing to repeatedly harp on it?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 19, 2006, 10:10:32 PM
Actually,
that's pretty much all I wanted to say, so I'll just send him basically that now. I was trying to put it off because I am so easily distracted when I should be working on ATN.

The argument from the old ATN column is pretty solid too, if I do say so myself.

If he responds, I'll share it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 19, 2006, 10:17:31 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger (BfB) on September 19, 2006, 04:17:24 PM
That might be the most regular-season Division III "coverage" provided by ESPN.com since ... well, ever. 

Ron, I see it was Enginegro that said it was ESPN.com.

It might be there, I still get NFL.com as I Google (although I'll find out in a minute when I actually click Engine's link) ... but this might explain why he was on ESPN.com and then wasn't.

http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2003/10/easterbrook_is_.html

(clicks Engine's link)

Apparently he is back with ESPN.

In any case, I don't want to bash this dude personally, but I do want to let him know he is talking out of turn.

This is why I basically stay off the message boards. I like to argue, I'm easily distracted and I almost always get the last word. Bad combination.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on September 20, 2006, 08:54:30 AM
I figured this board would have a lot of views from a diverse crowd. Not intended to stir up MUC fans or else I would have just posted it there.  I see a lot of D3 references (correct and incorrect) in ESPN's page 2 -- tuesday morning QB and Bill Simmons sports guy's world -- and SI.com 10 spot.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on September 20, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
The guy who writes the 10-spot for ESPN is a Williams grad, that is probably why he will reference D3.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2006, 03:43:21 AM
Quote from: enginegro on September 20, 2006, 08:54:30 AM
I figured this board would have a lot of views from a diverse crowd. Not intended to stir up MUC fans or else I would have just posted it there.  I see a lot of D3 references (correct and incorrect) in ESPN's page 2 -- tuesday morning QB and Bill Simmons sports guy's world -- and SI.com 10 spot.

Gotcha.

Definitely share what you see. I used to have a media watch item cleverly titled Press Coverage in ATN (it actually made an appearance this week, thanks to Gordon), but I'm usually so enthralled writing the damn thing I never get to surf the 'net (remember how I said I get distracted?)

So extra sets of eyes would be great. It's definitely not all bad stuff that's being said, and I'm not one of those guys who's gonna whine about every little swipe. We're the little guys, or the little schools anyway. It doesn't mean I am, or any of us should be, insecure about where we went or what our talents were. Shoot, a lot of D3 schools are top nizzotch (although they did not teach me that)

USA Today had a thing a year ago about all the CEOs from small schools. I think Oberlin, Union, Ithaca and Denison (maybe) were on the front page, above the fold.

US News & World Report uses the daggone NESCAC football standings, practically, for their top 10 Liberal Arts Colleges.

Anyway ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on September 21, 2006, 12:00:44 PM
WSJ had a piece on CEOs coming from lesser known state schools and small private colleges this week -- might be today.

--east region ''scoffer''


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2006, 06:59:53 PM
Quote from: repete on September 21, 2006, 12:00:44 PM
--east region ''scoffer''

;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 22, 2006, 01:39:38 AM
KnightStalker with the Fast Times at Ridgemont High picture ... I see you.

Oh,
Two things I wanted to share. This from Ryan Briggs' column, re: Mount Union:

QuoteStrong safety Matt Kostelnik recovered a bad punt snap in the end zone with 6:37 left in the first quarter, giving Mount Union a 14-0 lead. Ten seconds later, Kostelnik intercepted a pass and returned it 24 yards for a touchdown.

Meanwhile, quarterback Mike Jorris threw touchdown passes of 21 and 82 yards to receiver Pierre Garcon. He also threw a 67-yarder to Justin Wray, helping Mount Union assume a 34-7 lead with 13 minutes left in the first half. At that point, the Purple Raiders had executed a grand total of five offensive plays.

I mean jeez. Are you running up the score or getting your players some game action for when a team actually challenges you?

Regarding that Bethany game, I promised in the column more here. Definitely an early nominee for that end-of-the-year column (actually, we should start tallying that stuff here soon while it's fresh)

Straight from Bison SID Brian Rose:

Quote1.  OWU led 21-0 at halftime and we are calling it the biggest comeback in school history. I can't be 100 percent positive about that because our files aren't as good as I wish they were, but we've been putting it in stories since Saturday and no alum has written in to argue it.

2. Trailing 21-14 early in the 4th, Bethany lines up for a 33-yard field goal on
a fourth and three. However, Bethany false starts, moving the ball back to the 21. We pull the field goal unit off the field and go for it on fourth and
eight. QB Brent Owens hits WR T.J. Parker, who set career-highs with 12 catches for 156 yards in the game, with a 20-yard completion down to the one. On the next play, we send in 6-7, 350-pound junior DT Quinn Taylor to play in the backfield. He gets the handoff and plows one-yard into the end zone, ala "Refrigerator" Perry from the '85 Bears.

3. Bethany scores but misses the two-point conversion, leaving the Bison down 28-26 with 46 seconds to play. Bethany then recovers the onside kick and, with the aid of a personal foul on OWU, drives down to the Bishops nine-yard line. Owens then hits freshman WR Matt Cruse with a scoring pass in the right-corner of the end zone on a fade pattern with just one second to play to give Bethany the win. Cruse would also end up falling on the fumble on the ensuing kickoff when OWU was trying their version of Cal-Stanford.

4. Saturday's win was the first time three things happened since 2002: (A)
Bethany wins more than one game in a season (B) Bethany wins a road game, snapping a 16-game losing streak away from their home field and (C) Bethany wins consecutive games in the same season (BC did win their season finale in 2004 and season opener in 2005).

And for anyone that cares, My 26-35 is still stuck on my machine. Will post it here tomorrow.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 22, 2006, 11:12:50 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 22, 2006, 01:39:38 AM
QuoteStrong safety Matt Kostelnik recovered a bad punt snap in the end zone with 6:37 left in the first quarter, giving Mount Union a 14-0 lead. Ten seconds later, Kostelnik intercepted a pass and returned it 24 yards for a touchdown.

Meanwhile, quarterback Mike Jorris threw touchdown passes of 21 and 82 yards to receiver Pierre Garcon. He also threw a 67-yarder to Justin Wray, helping Mount Union assume a 34-7 lead with 13 minutes left in the first half. At that point, the Purple Raiders had executed a grand total of five offensive plays.

I mean jeez. Are you running up the score or getting your players some game action for when a team actually challenges you?

K-Mack:  Ric and I did the radio broadcast of that game and it was a very strange one indeed.  The Otterbein defense looked like Heidelburg as 5 of MUC's offensive TD's were scored on 1 or 2 play drives.  Couple that with 2 quick defensive scores and MUC could have easily scored 90+ if they would have tried.  And the last 4 TD's were nothing more than simple running plays (2 of these scores were 1 play drives), but I guess the Otters thought it would be more fun chasing the ball carrier than actually tackling him.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 23, 2006, 03:04:02 PM
OK, Keith, here's a question for you to possibly research in a future ATN:  Why the heck don't more schools offer live stats during games?  It doesn't seem all that hard to do since (according to my limited understanding) they can be provided using the same stats already being collected at games.  Takes much less bandwidth than broadcasts, you don't have to pay announcers, and you would hope that most schools have internet capability in their stadiums by now.

It's a lot easier to keep up with several games at once this way, that's for sure.  Not as satisfying as listening to a game being called by a good set of announcers, but how many schools have good announcers?  ;-) 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on September 24, 2006, 09:20:41 PM
Ron 

   I agree.. Wesley has them this year. But It's hard to listen to the webcast,  the radio webcast and read live stats all at once..... Tho a lap top helps next to the PC.

Ya ya I (might) a DIII fan..


  I think that maybe some facility's don't have room in the press boxes or the people to type all that...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 25, 2006, 12:01:27 AM
PA,

a number of schools in the SCAC are difficult to get scores/info from ... small towns, with very little media coverage.  As Pat said elsewhere (if not in so many words) it would certainly help if more schools (of all conferences) would do a better job of updating scores via the d3scoreboard.com service, too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 25, 2006, 01:49:21 AM
From what I can tell, outside of using the same computer program to do stats, little across the board is the same in D3. Schools and their game-day operations vary from sophisticated to one pro and some student help type of things. Some are already wired for the internet and very tech-savvy, some are more stuck in their old ways.

Short of CoSIDA pushing for some standardization across the board, I'm not sure what we can do but opine.

The live stats updating from the official stats in the press box are really nice; to do on the web may be more difficult, I don't know, but halftime or end-of-quarter uploads would seem to be a snap.

As far as Otterbein, I take it they're not the same team that beat Capital last year?

Or is it once again Mount Union being just that good (i.e. 70-0 over JCU last year, and JCU went 7-3).

Dunno.

Any readers want to come up with column ideas for this week? :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: diehardfan on September 25, 2006, 02:00:16 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 25, 2006, 01:49:21 AM
Any readers want to come up with column ideas for this week? :)

This is totally a homer question, but...

Gordon (and other people) brought this up earlier, maybe even on this board (maybe the top 25 board) but there's been some discussion this year about whether the CCIW is not a strong conference, and that they've just been "given the benefit of doubt" cause we have to face mount union fairly early on every year come playoff time. While, I'm certainly not going to argue for us being in the top 3, I'm reluctant to think we're bad. I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think on if it's really just that we're not good period, or if it's just a down year for us. Now that the non-conference season is over, it would be fairly easy to compare stats from this year to other years, I would think.

What about a regular season, non-conf, non-playoff streak list of all teams that have red as a school color and still have grass fields... haha... just kidding! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 25, 2006, 02:06:59 AM
There was a Daily Dose thread, maybe reaction to Week 2 or something, where Gordon and I disagreed publicly over the strength of the CCIW.

Especially since some people were operating under the assumption that Augie was the league's best team and they had a loss (now two), and North Central had the bad defeat to Conc. Wis. ... If Wheaton and Carthage turn out to be the best teams, that changes that argument.

I just go by the playoff performance vs. MUC, as opposed to vs. all other teams, the regular-season non-conference record (something like 22-3 last year) and such.

It's definitely a down year so far, but it's too early to judge. Also, last year's non-conf record was a serious anomaly.

Maybe I can go more in-depth another day; I'm at work and need to head home.

-- KMc.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 26, 2006, 07:20:35 PM
From the blog, re: the Raiders "running up the score."

QuoteRaiderguy Says:
The 26th of September, 2006 at 2:54 am

What are you supposed to do?

Four fumbles and a blocked punt in the first quarter and a sustained drive and you're sitting 42 -zip in the first fifteen minutes.

Your stating QB has stats like 4-5 50 some yds and two TD's and he is done.

"WWRD?"

Starting wideout 2 catches 22 yds and two TD's, done for the night.

Turnovers will kill ya!

I suppose turnovers are unsportsmanlike too Greg? Oh just give'em the ball back ...you don't need it.

That would be the sporty thing to do.

Only trouble with games like this is you are not getting tested before the tougher games in the schedule like ONU in two weeks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: diehardfan on September 26, 2006, 07:24:30 PM
"Oh just give'em the ball back ...you don't need it."

I know that was supposed to be a joke, but just think about doing that seriously for a second... I believe that would probably be the most embarassing thing you could possibly do to a team. And funny, in a painful way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 26, 2006, 07:43:52 PM
That's kind of what I think about kicking the field goals on second down.

It's like, they're trying to say "there's no need for us to score anymore here, we won't run it up" and yet what there implying is that "there's no way you can stop us from scoring another TD even on a handful of 22 dives, so let's not bother with the whole running plays thing."

I agree completely about your starters needing some work against live competition, knowing you have opponents that will play you tough ahead ... sooner or later.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2006, 10:35:06 AM
This is as promised, rescued from my laptop while the home internet was down. Apparently it's bad to have a bookshelf resting on your cable wire. You learn something every day.

Intended for last week's ATN:

QuoteMy 26-35
Around the Nation resumes its weekly trip inside the mind of a D3football.com Top 25 voter. Take it in stride, however, as the other 24 voters clearly don't give a crap what I think (and that may end up a good thing).

As always, be reminded that the Division III top 25 is the most exclusive ranking in football. With 234 schools, 209 teams go unranked each week. We have fewer spots in our poll than we do conferences (26) and playoff spots (32).

That said, there are always unranked teams that deserve consideration. Generally those teams are among our others receiving votes – there were 31 of those teams this week – but here's where I acknowledge their possible top 25 worthiness.

My Week 3 vote and fourth ballot, including the preseason, didn't change a whole lot from Week 2. Only three teams I ranked lost, and since Delaware Valley and Linfield fell to other teams on my ballot, Texas Lutheran was the only one that dropped out. Howard Payne moved into my top 25 (and not just because they were another Texas team) while Wartburg held steady for me at 26. Cortland State was the 27th team on my mind after their 17-10 (mentioned above?) win over Brockport State.

In hindsight, I should have slotted the Yellow Jackets behind the Knights and Red Dragons, although I admit to having an artificial restrictor on Wartburg, since I already rank Coe and Central. I did much the same thing with the third Liberty League team, although Union made it easy with the loss to Springfield. This early in the season I'm wary of ranking three teams from one conference when there's so much yet to prove, although in the case of the OAC, Mount Union, Capital and Ohio Northern each clearly deserve their spots.

St. John Fisher, UW-Oshkosh and UW-Stout are 28-30 for me, followed by an group of teams I'm keeping in mind by not slotting. In no particular order are Bethel, St. Olaf, Alfred, Concordia (Wis.), Mount St. Joseph, St. Norbert and Monmouth.

I started taking a closer look at these teams: Cal Lutheran, Carthage, Lycoming and Springfield. North Central, Washington & Jefferson and Union can get back on the radar with a couple more weeks of consistency, and Averett followed our expected pattern given their early schedule, so more information is needed.

Concordia-Moorhead could play its way back into things against No. 4 St. John's on Saturday, as could Trinity (Texas) against DePauw and – to a lesser extent -- Rochester against Union, Carroll against Monmouth and Colby against Trinity (Conn.).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 28, 2006, 04:45:13 PM
A small correction on this week's column.  You say 4 conferences have three unbeatens each, but forgot the CCIW - Wheaton, Carthage, and Elmhurst. 

Perhaps you were thinking ahead to Saturday when either Carthage or Elmhurst will get their first loss. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jmw73 on September 28, 2006, 06:14:10 PM
What took so long to get Cortland State into your Top 25? You seem to be one of the last ones to do so. ???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 28, 2006, 06:35:12 PM
Great ATN Board.

I also appreciated the LaCollege article in the Town Talk.  That "scrimmage" will help the Wildcats.

As for the merit-based scholarship article, I was a recipient, and grateful for it.  My dad (Mom was a homemaker) made slightly more than the proverbial $40K (Calculations available at The Inflation Calculator (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/)) but only a little more.  Without the aid from McMurry, it would have been tough.

Finally, the article on getting football players who are serious about their education...

I kinda thought that the football/athlete/gender-balancing article (the 3rd of the articles) was a "fluff" article and a bit too "preachy"...  Yeah, that is blunt, but the first time that a school admits student-athletes who are not academically qualified,  their admissions disrupt the campus, the classroom and the school environment so much, that the admissions people, faculty, administration and Board of Trustees remember it... for a lonnnnngggggggg time! :-\

Overall, thanks for the reading material, and your ATN is one of the best features that the site has!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 28, 2006, 09:49:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on September 28, 2006, 04:45:13 PM
A small correction on this week's column.  You say 4 conferences have three unbeatens each, but forgot the CCIW - Wheaton, Carthage, and Elmhurst. 

Perhaps you were thinking ahead to Saturday when either Carthage or Elmhurst will get their first loss. ;)

Yeah, not sure how that happened since Wheaton, Carthage and Elmhurst's unbeaten records are all referenced in the column.

Will fix.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 28, 2006, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: jmw73 on September 28, 2006, 06:14:10 PMWhat took so long to get Cortland State into your Top 25? You seem to be one of the last ones to do so. ???

Well, they were always on the radar, as obviously I had some part in ranking them 26th in the 1-234.

But as far as my own personal ranking, there's probably some negligence involved. In the preseason, voters get a spreadsheet of about 60 teams (usually everyone who received votes in the last poll last year, plus playoff teams and a few others), with returning starters and notable offseason changes, like coaches, coordinators and schemes.

For some reason Cortland wasn't on this sheet, and I have this noted on that sheet. Also missing were Trinity, Texas, John Carroll and Hampden-Sydney, but pretty much every other semi-legit team is on there. Some, like ONU, Concordia-Moorhead and North Central were on the list but missing information, although we had requested it. Remember, this is late July/early August we're getting this info though.

I did my intial top 25 based heavily on projections, which relied a lot on number of and quality of returning starters. Had they been on the sheet, or had I looked it up on the side, Cortland's 20 returners (9 off, 9 def, 2 sp) would have earned them strong consideration. As it was, I had them in my 35 or so group, which probably meant I had settled on a top 25 before fully researching the 35-and-over teams not on the spreadsheet.

That poll was done Aug. 4. Later in the month I examined things more fully with Pat and contributed to ranking Cortland 26th in the 1-234.

But when it came to voting Week 1, I worked off my own preseason vote & 26-35 list, not the 1-234. So by not having them on my watch list, and with them not playing Week 1 and beating Morrisville Week 2, it didn't really help get them noticed. Beating Brockport was the one that made me go back and take a closer look, and as I mentioned above, they were right there around 25-27 for me last week.

Basically, I try not to do my preseason rankings solely off of last season's playoff finishes. Cortland had earned a lot of respect staying close to Rowan and Hobart, and I'd sort of lost sight that they also beat Ithaca and Brockport last year.

The good news is polls are fluid, and the more good games a team plays, the more chances to open eyes they have. Cortland could very well be unbeaten this year heading into its final two, vs. Rowan and Ithaca.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on September 28, 2006, 11:49:45 PM
RE: the article of using d3 football as bait.

Is it just me or did the fact that he teaches sports ethics at the University of  Florida cost him just a little hit of credibility ... ?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on October 02, 2006, 07:47:07 PM
am I the only one reading this stuff? thought someone would post this by now... from SI.com writer Pete McEntegart's The 10 Spot (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/pete_mcentegart/10/02/ten.spot/1.html)

"...Up in New England on Saturday, meanwhile, Williams (Mass.) College -- the 10 Spot's Official Division III team -- ended Trinity's 31-game winning streak with a convincing 41-16 home victory. Congratulations to coach Mike Whalen and the Ephs."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2006, 12:17:13 AM
Quote from: knightstalker on September 20, 2006, 09:02:36 AMThe guy who writes the 10-spot for ESPN is a Williams grad, that is probably why he will reference D3.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: diehardfan on October 04, 2006, 12:36:48 AM
Wow, too bad I don't have a job at ESPN so I can promote Wheaton.  ::)

Seriously though, it's fun to get the attention. When D3 grads take over the world, we will have even more. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 04, 2006, 06:22:31 AM
diehard: Please bag up 2 dozen of those M&M cookies for me. I'll eat them on the road!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2006, 11:21:41 PM
Quote from: enginegro on October 02, 2006, 07:47:07 PM
am I the only one reading this stuff? thought someone would post this by now... from SI.com writer Pete McEntegart's The 10 Spot (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/pete_mcentegart/10/02/ten.spot/1.html)

"...Up in New England on Saturday, meanwhile, Williams (Mass.) College -- the 10 Spot's Official Division III team -- ended Trinity's 31-game winning streak with a convincing 41-16 home victory. Congratulations to coach Mike Whalen and the Ephs."

I got five on it that he says nothing when Amherst beats them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2006, 04:21:11 PM
Around the Nation is updated with fleshed-out Five Games to Watch and more "But Don't Quote Me."

Upset special and Surprisingly Good Game to come later tonight.

I'm not sure My 26-35 is all that interesting this week. I may write it for the board-watchers only.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DuffMan on October 05, 2006, 10:31:44 PM
Keith,

In your blurb about the Saint John's vs. Saint Olaf game, you state that, "They do get the Johnnies in Northfield this time, and St. John's hasn't overwhelmed in either of its MIAC games."

SJU may have not overwhelmed Carleton or Concordia-Moorhead, but they drubbed Augsburg 60-0, which is a MIAC opponent.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2006, 11:50:07 PM
Yeah,
I'm not sure if it was you who also e-mailed me, but I am going to fix that.

I put "MIAC" in there to rule out the River Falls game in which they did overwhelm and glazed right over Augsburg.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2006, 11:58:35 PM
Let's go to the e-mail inbox:

QuoteFrom: "TCNJ Alumni" <xxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com>

NJ held Montclair to 26 russing yards and 200 yds total. It could be a good game vs. Rowan.

I thought about that as an "Also Keep an Eye on" game, and I even thought about trying to beat D.C., Baltimore and Philly traffic to get up there on Friday night.

That could be a good one, it really depends if Rowan is struggling on offense like some think or is just waiting for everything to click and a team to open it up on.

TCNJ has beaten the Profs before and given them some good games in the past, so I definitely wouldn't put it past ol' Trenton State.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 06, 2006, 12:38:06 AM
More mail:

QuoteFrom:  Pete Butler <xxxxxxxx@yahoo.com>
To:  keith@d3football.com
Subject:  Where is the MIAA Love???
Date:  Sunday, October 01, 2006 9:46:46 PM 

keith and the d3 gang,

I love the site and think it is great what you all do for DIII football.  Granted this comment is biased since I played football at Albion for 4 years but...is it that you view the leage as weak for never, ever writing about any MIAA games?  If that is your view I respect that but there are always TONS of articles about the teams in Ohio, Wisconsin and Illinois but NEVER any articles about MIAA teams unless they are a loser to another team.  Where is the love???

Pete,
I'll be straight up with you. The MIAA is 7 of the 234 teams we cover, so as a national columnist, I could go years without featuring an MIAA team if nothing truly unique is going on. Winning, while not the only thing we write about, most certainly helps, whether it's a hot start, an upset or a new team rising up the conference ranks. Quite frankly, the MIAA has had none of those this season, with 2-2 overall being the best record of any conference team. MIAA schools often schedule top competition from the CCIW and surrounding leagues, so you are going to get your names mentioned if you take on those challenges, win or lose.

But also Pete, for the entire site, you can't say never. In past years, Around the Nation has taken a midseason look at every single conference race, and tracked the ones not decided until the end, which is often the case in the MIAA. We have featured league teams on occasion (a Mark Simon piece on Olivet comes to mind), and the MIAA is covered every week in Ryan Briggs' Around the Great Lakes.

"The Love," though, is not something D3 staff gives out on whims, to please people. We do try to spread it around, but we also have to tackle what we feel is interesting to all our readers across the country.

We understand that for each reader, the most important game going on that week is the one his or her school is playing, and everything outside that conference is on the periphery. But between the conference boards, Around the Region and other features, we do the best we can to localize the coverage. Also, several of the site's features depend on the school's cooperation, so coverage may vary from school to school, based on the level of involvement from the SID's office.

If you're comparing three states with about 20 D3 schools each to the coverage of the MIAA, of course it's going to seem imbalanced. And when you take your whole conference and put it up against the backdrop of the entire nation, well, it's inevitable some schools and conferences won't get as much front-page, national coverage as they'd like.

But we don't have anything against the MIAA per se (My wife actually has family in the state, I've been trying to organize a you-see-your-fam, I'll-see-a-game trip for a couple years). Newsworthiness is something we react to, not control, if that makes any sense. Be patient though. These things tend to cycle around, the MIAA will get more love when its teams' play justifies it.

I appreciate the compliments, and I know you want to see Albion make another Stagg Bowl run. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 06, 2006, 01:04:14 AM
Another similar one:

QuoteKeith OKeefe <xxxxxxxxxx@yahoo.com>
To:  keith@d3football.com
Subject:  No Love for BC????
Date:  Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:05:47 PM

Keith,

We both played in the ODAC around the same time, (93-97).  I served in the Army for 7 years after BC, and while I was over seas in Bosnia, Afghanistan & Iraq, I followed the ODAC on your site.  I have to say, I've been disappointed in the lack of coverage for the Eagles.  I know we were rivals, but it is truly sad that the most successful team in the ODAC for the past 10 years gets no respect in any of the articles posted on your site.  What gives???

Keith

Hey Keith,
always good to hear from a contemporary and a former ODAC'er. But I have to say that on the whole, your beef is not quite as valid as the MIAA guy above.

Aside from Mount Union, St. John's, Rowan and maybe a few of the Texas schools, I can't think of anyone we write about more on a year-to-year basis than Bridgewater. I've been doing this virtually since I finished playing and Bridgewater became a power, and I've written about them pretty much from the start of their ascent until now. Pat Cummings does a really solid job keeping tabs on the Eagles in Around the Mid-Atlantic, the webmaster of BridgewaterFootball.com is a D3football.com contributor and Bridgewater fans are some of the most active on Post Patterns, so if there's something going on with the Eagles, we usually know.

Now, there is a point with successful teams like Bridgewater where their winning the conference isn't really news anymore, and they hardly get mentioned nationally early in the season. That can be by design, as we tend to lay off teams who are a good bet for us to write about come playoff time, when the entire spectrum is 32 or fewer teams, as opposed to 234.

But regionally and on the by-conference topics on the boards, we are noticing the Eagles.

But you weren't saying "where's the Bridgewater coverage the past five weeks?" You imply that there's a historical lack of coverage, no respect and perhaps even a personal grudge.

I don't even know how to respond to that, really. If you would like me to forward you a list of Bridgewater articles done over the years, I can ... I've had to put one together before for a reader. I'd be glad to help. Or try Google.

If you find that there is really a lack of Bridgewater coverage, I cannot imagine what your expectations are. There are 233 other schools in need of some mention too. If you want all Eagles, all the time, BridgewaterFootball.com will take care of you, for sure.

I appreciate your patronage of the site, especially while serving us overseas, and the e-mail. I'd even listen to you reminisce about that 31-7 game at Macon in '96. But I'm not sure I can get on board with the "truly sad" aspect of D3football.com ignoring Bridgewater.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 06, 2006, 01:23:37 AM
Pat's better at this than I am, at least when it comes to being brief:

Quote> Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
Jack Shinn (xxxxxx@gvtc.com) on  Monday, October 02, 2006 at 08:51:29 PM
      
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: UMHB
Notes: Can you show something ever about Mary Hardin Baylor/

QuoteFrom:  "Pat Coleman" 
To:  "Jack Shinn"
Cc:  keith@d3football.com
Subject:  Re: Feedback: UMHB
Date:  Monday, October 02, 2006 9:04:38 PM

Jack,

Well, we did cover their game at Christopher Newport -- in fact, our lead
columnist was there and did a column on the game. We're also planning to
be in Belton for the UW-Whitewater game, and potentially in Abilene for
the HSU game.

Once a program gets into elite status, we actually cover them a little bit
less. But we hope this is seen as a sign of respect -- we cover them less
in the regular season because we know we will be writing about them in the
playoffs.

Thanks for writing.

Pat Coleman
D3football.com

Anyway,
the point of this is not to embarass anyone or try to make ourselves look cool.

I just know that other people have similar concerns, and rather than keep the answers to these or any other questions (unless they're meant to be private) just between me and the writer, I feel like answering them in an open fashion starts a better dialogue and hopefully provides answers to more than just one person.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 06, 2006, 01:25:15 AM
Quote-------------- Original message --------------
From: Patrick Cummings <announcerpat@yahoo.com>

> K-Mac
>
> Would it not be more accurate to say that Ursinus's
> defense has three shutouts instead of two? "Allowing
> a safety." I'd say Ursinus's defense has three
> shutouts while the offense allowed two points by way
> of a safety in one of those wins. Since the only was
> to score just two points is to have your offense
> create, or allow the safety, it credits their defense
> even more.
>
> Just my take.
>
> PC

Valid points ... you Centennial homer.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 06, 2006, 02:19:42 PM
Something to keep an eye on in the losing streak department is the 34 varsity games lost in a row by Gallaudet. The Bison have been popping back and forth from club to varsity since 1995 or so and while they have certainly won games as a club team, they have not won a game when bound by NCAA rules since 1991.

Heidelberg will pass 34 before the end of the season if it doesn't win one of its remaining games, but Gallaudet will pop back into the list next September.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 06, 2006, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 04, 2006, 11:21:41 PM
Quote from: enginegro on October 02, 2006, 07:47:07 PM
am I the only one reading this stuff? thought someone would post this by now... from SI.com writer Pete McEntegart's The 10 Spot (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/pete_mcentegart/10/02/ten.spot/1.html)

"...Up in New England on Saturday, meanwhile, Williams (Mass.) College -- the 10 Spot's Official Division III team -- ended Trinity's 31-game winning streak with a convincing 41-16 home victory. Congratulations to coach Mike Whalen and the Ephs."

I got five on it that he says nothing when Amherst beats them.

I know he has mentioned them losing in previous columns.  He actually seems to be able to poke fun at things that deserve it, including himself at times.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 07, 2006, 01:09:53 PM
Knight,
that's cool.

Over on the blog, people are keeping with the theme of the week.

QuoteVOJ Says:
The 6th of October, 2006 at 9:58 am
Keith...once again your bias against SJU comes out..."St. John's hasn't overwhelmed in either of its MIAC games."...I guess 60-0 against Augsburg doesn't count...of course Augy just pushed Concordia to overtime before losing...And believe it or not Carleton beat Bethel and then SJU overwhelmed them in the second half...with a second string QB. I can't remember the last time I read anything positive from you concerning SJU...maybe I am wrong and if I am my bad...but maybe I'm right

I don't know why people assume conspiracy theories first, without considering any other explanation. Maybe it sounds cooler when you write in. But when trying to keep track of 234 teams, mistakes happen. I certainly don't have time to pick out teams and hate them.

While I do think St. John's and Rowan teams get a lot of early respect in the polls off name-recognition most years (both tend to back it up though), I didn't skip the Augsburg win as a way to get in a subtle dig at the Johnnies fans savvy enough to pick up the mistake. I just missed it.

I was aiming to say they hadn't overwhelmed at all really, but I used the MIAC qualifier because the Johnnies did smoke UW-River Falls ... and I glazed right over the Augsburg game. My mistake ... it's been pointed out three times now.

I don't know where you folks come up with some of this stuff, but as far as the tone of the responses ... you get the amount of respect you give.

There's another one from Mount St. Joseph's and some more in the inbox for later.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 07, 2006, 04:24:27 PM
OK,
Last one for now. And all the ATN e-mail isn't this crazy, but a lot of it is. I like to share it and my responses in hopes that it will answer some questions some other folks may have and deter additional accusatory e-mails.

QuoteFrom:   "South, John" <John_South@xxxxxxxxxx>
To:   <keith@d3football.com>
Subject:   First no love, now no respect?
Date:   Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:29:09 -0400 (EDT)   

Sir,

We communicated briefly last year in regard the to the schematics of the then
upcoming playoff system. I am now writing in due regard to your lack of respect
for the College of Mt. St. Joseph. First we see no love in the d3 poll, even
though the coaches tend to see us as the 19th best school in the country, but
then you fail to mention us in the recent around the nation news brief. What am
I talking about? I am talking about the list of unbeateans. MSJ is currently
heralding an unbeaten record of 4-0 and will see 5-0 come this Saturday at
Hanover. Yes the same Hanover that made our win streak come to an abrupt end
last year, but presumably so, "who cares about some small catholic college in
Cincinnati?" I do. We not only deserve the love on the d3 poll, but we demand
the respect amongst the nation. Do you think our top-notch defense stands for
nothing? Do you think we rank amongst the nation's best for nothing?

Show some love to MSJ,

John R. South

John,
I appreciate the e-mail, if not the tone.

Coach Huber has e-mailed in the past, and although we have never met, he seems like a good guy. I wish your program continued success, I don't know why being a Catholic school from Cincinnati would make me against you; most D3 schools are small and off the beaten path. We are the ones who respect you in spite of that.

The coaches are entitled to their opinion(s). Every last one of them knows football better than I do, but they also have their own teams to worry about. The AFCA poll tends to be heavily weighted on wins and losses.

I, like other D3football.com pollsters (including the coaches who vote in our poll, I'd guess) tend not to view all wins as equal. And in the Lions' case, their chances to impress the national voters comes in their non-conference schedule. Beating Wilmington, Rose-Hulman and Illinois Wesleyan (an upgrade from Kzoo) with Thomas More to finish the season ... well, that's not as impressive as, say, losing to Rowan and beating Mary Hardin-Baylor and Salisbury. With regard to MSJ, I know it can only beat the teams on its schedule, and that alone can get you into the top 25 discussion. But the top 25 is an elite group. With double the number of teams, it's roughly equivalent to a Division I-A top 12. MSJ is not playing a single non-conference powerhouse. The last games against power teams were 49-6 in last year's playoffs (MUC) and 31-7 against Wheaton the year before. I understand those are previous years, but non-conference results help us shape our opinions of conference strength, and until Franklin beat Wabash earlier this year, only Hanover had any elite opponents that I can think of (W&J and Bridgewater) and the results weren't always pretty.

So I'd be doing you and the rest of our readers a disservice if I told you MSJ was No. 19 overall. I don't think they're better than the top three teams in the OAC.

This "love" from us that everyone seeks, it's not given away on whims. It's earned. When MSJ shows us it can beat, or at least hang with, an elite opponent, I am certain our voters will take notice.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on October 07, 2006, 04:42:02 PM
K-Mack:

Consider yourself lucky. At least Mr. South didn't directly accuse you of an anti-Catholic bias ....  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 07, 2006, 05:50:08 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on October 07, 2006, 04:42:02 PM
K-Mack:

Consider yourself lucky. At least Mr. South didn't directly accuse you of an anti-Catholic bias ....  ;)

You mean there are actually people out there that don't like Bingo and Bake Sales?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Preto on October 09, 2006, 01:36:26 AM
MIAA football budgets, as reported to the NCAA:

Albion     $269,194
Alma       $255,740
Hope       $217,750
Adrian     $202,250
Olivet      $173,500

How does this compare to other D3 schools.

sorry if this has already been posted and discussed.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 09, 2006, 04:15:23 AM
$269,000 gets you half a year's (or less) salary (excluding fringes) for several DIA HFCs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WIACPOWER on October 09, 2006, 08:41:48 PM


Coe is the 25th ranked team in d3football.com.  Of their 5 wins the opponents have a combined 6 wins.  Is Coe that good? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 09, 2006, 09:41:25 PM
Better than your math.

This is the info the voters got on Coe this week. I count eight wins, not five.

No. 25 Coe (5-1):
Sep 02   AWAY   Illinois Wesleyan (1-4)   W   21-34
Sep 09   HOME   Aurora (1-4)   W   45-0
Sep 16   AWAY   Luther (1-5)   W   10-16
Sep 23   HOME   Buena Vista (2-3)   W   41-17
Sep 30   HOME   Loras (3-2)   L   30-32
Oct 07   AWAY   Dubuque (3-3)   W   23-37
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: religion_major on October 09, 2006, 10:24:39 PM
I guess to most here complaining about their school's position in the poll I am going to sound like I am rubbing salt in a wound.  I believe that the d3football.com poll is well researched.  By Mid-Season voters have started to figure out where the think teams belong as conference play is heating up.  Remember that in the Preseason and first few weeks poll position is established.  After that a team from the outside must do something impressive (ie beat an established national powerhouse) to get "love" from the pollsters.  Another thing to remember is that their is one way for a team to force the pollsters to take notice of it, win some playoff games.  When a team wins playoff games it shows that it is at the top of the divison.  Teams that consistantly win playoff games tend to get the benefit of the doubt in the polls even on down years.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 10, 2006, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 09, 2006, 09:41:25 PM
Better than your math.

This is the info the voters got on Coe this week. I count eight wins, not five.

No. 25 Coe (5-1):
Sep 02   AWAY   Illinois Wesleyan (1-4)   W   21-34
Sep 09   HOME   Aurora (1-4)   W   45-0
Sep 16   AWAY   Luther (1-5)   W   10-16
Sep 23   HOME   Buena Vista (2-3)   W   41-17
Sep 30   HOME   Loras (3-2)   L   30-32
Oct 07   AWAY   Dubuque (3-3)   W   23-37

That said, Pat, those are pretty unimpressive results for a team ranked in the top 25.  They lost to one .500 team, marginally beat another, and have a six point win against a 1-5 Luther squad.   There are one loss teams out there with arguably better results against better competition. 

Good for Coe getting some recognition, it'll all work out later in the season. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 10, 2006, 12:17:55 PM
That's true -- but it's only the No. 25 spot, it's not like they're ranked No. 9. Coe only has 53 points. They're not exactly blowing away the field.

They have Wartburg and Central at home coming up. We'll have more data then.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2006, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Preto on October 09, 2006, 01:36:26 AM
MIAA football budgets, as reported to the NCAA:

Albion     $269,194
Alma       $255,740
Hope       $217,750
Adrian     $202,250
Olivet      $173,500

How does this compare to other D3 schools.

I'd like to know your source for these numbers. If reporting to the NCAA is required, we'd be able to compare other conference's reports to these MIAA numbers. As of now, I don't know whether these numbers are good or bad, but I'd imagine they are average or low-end of the average. I'd bet the best budgets come from schools with strong traditions and/or alumni bases ... I'm pretty sure donation-gathering booster programs are permitted.

I also know road trips can cost well into the tens of thousands and years when new jerseys or new equipment is purchased can be very expensive. There are lots of unseen expenses too ... this is a great story idea.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 10, 2006, 01:24:48 PM
That info is actually reported to the U.S. Department of Education -- at least that's where I think I've seen it. Only schools required to submit Title IX-relevant data send that in. (Not single-gender institutions, not schools which don't accept federal financial aid such as Grove City, etc.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 10, 2006, 03:15:32 PM
I have this link, but I'm not sure it's apples:apples with the reported CCIW data:

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Grizzman on October 10, 2006, 06:21:19 PM
D3Football Guys - the Month Long Run to the Playoffs sounds awesome ( assuming you like to travel) and will provide readers with some up close and personal reports on important D3 games.

Good Job!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2006, 09:16:09 PM
Quote from: Grizzman on October 10, 2006, 06:21:19 PM
D3Football Guys - the Month Long Run to the Playoffs sounds awesome ( assuming you like to travel) and will provide readers with some up close and personal reports on important D3 games.

Good Job!

That's the plan.

I did a couple consecutive weeks on the road last season (Trinity at Amherst and then DePauw at Wabash, and maybe some playoff travels after that) and it can get exhausting.

Oh, we did the doubleheader last year too, the UW-Eau Claire at UW-Whitewater, then Wheaton at North Central that night.

One thing I can say is that doing the writing only, even if technology allows me to live blog from the press box on game day, is much less stressful than broadcasting.

The broadcasting usually requires taping interviews with each coach the day before (which actually gives you a lot of insight into the programs, etc.) and knowing the rosters, game notes, history, etc. when you get to the stadium.

Writing allows you the time to decipher what's important and then learn it.

I am excited about some of these trips, especially since I haven't been able to do many games so far this year. I think it's a good mix of top teams, conference clashes and an inter-conference clash. I'll see Whitewater twice in three weeks, against two good teams, so we'll know if they're Stagg/No. 1 overall material by then. I'm also being ambitious with the Iowa thing ... that took some luck to find a week when it would work, with games nearby (too bad there's no staggered kickoffs or night games) and the three top IIAC teams (probably) all there at the same time.

I just think it'll be a good mix. Hopefully now the games give me something to write about each week :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2006, 09:27:39 PM
Quote from: religion_major on October 09, 2006, 10:24:39 PM
I guess to most here complaining about their school's position in the poll I am going to sound like I am rubbing salt in a wound.  I believe that the d3football.com poll is well researched.  By Mid-Season voters have started to figure out where the think teams belong as conference play is heating up.  Remember that in the Preseason and first few weeks poll position is established.  After that a team from the outside must do something impressive (ie beat an established national powerhouse) to get "love" from the pollsters.  Another thing to remember is that their is one way for a team to force the pollsters to take notice of it, win some playoff games.  When a team wins playoff games it shows that it is at the top of the divison.  Teams that consistantly win playoff games tend to get the benefit of the doubt in the polls even on down years.   

Absolutely, that and playing a good non-conference team. Now occasionally it happens where you schedule a good opponent a while in advance and by the time you play it's not a good opponent.

Also, conferences that win playoff games establish strength. So even if school x has never won or been to the playoffs, if they beat school z to take control of their conference race, and school z has been a playoff perennial, then school x gets their benefit of the doubt a lot of the time.

A little pollgebra for you.

The thing I like about the D3 poll is that a win is not a win is not a win. In other words, St. Norbert running over the MWC is not akin to ONU finishing third in the OAC ... because it isn't. No slight on the Knights, but that's a legit example.

Also I like that the D3 pollsters take risks and follow their guts. I don't agree with our poll half the time, and sometimes I'm proven right, often I'm proven wrong. It's a decent meeting of the minds, and if nothing else, gets the conversation started.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 10, 2006, 09:42:38 PM
Quote from: Preto on October 09, 2006, 01:36:26 AM
MIAA football budgets, as reported to the NCAA:

Albion     $269,194
Alma       $255,740
Hope       $217,750
Adrian     $202,250
Olivet      $173,500

How does this compare to other D3 schools.

sorry if this has already been posted and discussed.



what do those budgets include?  Just thinking about factors that could be taken into consideration....

-Equipment managers are oftentimes fulltime and do other sports as well
-do you include meals provided for road trips supplied by the school?
-do you include new facilities that were just built/maintained?
-do you include asst. coaches that coach other sports and do other jobs?


just seem like a lot of intangables that can add up. (salaries of equipment managers, assistants etc)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2006, 10:03:43 PM
I would say yes on the meals.

Other big expenses:
Plane fare / bus rental, with driver
Groundskeeper?
Game day staff
Printing programs
New jerseys/equipment, 100 or 150 at a time
Daily laundry
Insurance
Game Tapes/video equipment
Recruiting travel, letterhead, etc.

These are just guesses.

I know when I played we brought a $200 check to camp to offset the practice greys (two team T-shirts, shorts, windbreaker or sweatshirt and swishy pants or sweatpants), laundry bag and other things you keep. Cleats were your own responsibility, although you could order through the team if you wanted to match. Game socks were free, game towels illegal except for the QB & C, locker room towels and stuff were provided. Laundry was done for you daily. Replacement parts, socks, jocks, helmet stickers, etc. were free.

We also had photo day, pretty sure those costs were above and beyond.

Our road trip per diem, depending on the class of the restaurant we stopped at, we would sometimes get off the bus and a coach would stand there with a stack of bills ... you would walk by and get a five and two ones or something.

On some road trips, we would have a walk-through at the other team's field or some random HS field, dine high class, with our suits on, then go to the movies.

When we changed coaches, we would leave as late as possible when we had to travel the day before, so we wouldn't miss that much class, and so that when we got to the hotel, we had time for walk through and position meetings, then bed.

Both styles were meant to keep players busy and out of trouble in the new city.

Game day you do a big breakfast really early (like 7-8 a.m. so it settles well before kickoff) then go back to sleep or burn your nervous energy some other way, meet, load up the bus, head to the field, do the game day routine.

I know that was a ramble, but I guess it was meant to show how quickly a road trip can become really expensive. Lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that players and coaches really only experience and know about.

Maybe some coaches or ex-coaches with inside knowledge of team budgets could post and shed some light on the costs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 10, 2006, 11:18:18 PM
When you guys go to Belton, you need to eat at the BBQ place we talked about on the ASC board last weekend ... really good stuff.  Just make sure the sausage hasn't been sitting in the pit a coupla hours too long  ;)

So are you going to need any stringers?   :D  Seriously, keep in mind that they apparently have no internet connectivitity whatsoever at Tiger Stadium.   The do have spare phone lines, and that's really all you need to do a webcast, isn't it? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 10, 2006, 11:22:00 PM
Yes, we actually prefer telephones. No firewalls on them.

Keith -- I think the question about budgets was more about what costs are covered by football budgets and what costs by overall athletics.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 11, 2006, 09:29:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 10, 2006, 10:03:43 PM
I would say yes on the meals.

Other big expenses:
Plane fare / bus rental, with driver
Groundskeeper?
Game day staff
Printing programs
New jerseys/equipment, 100 or 150 at a time
Daily laundry
Insurance
Game Tapes/video equipment
Recruiting travel, letterhead, etc.

These are just guesses.

I know when I played we brought a $200 check to camp to offset the practice greys (two team T-shirts, shorts, windbreaker or sweatshirt and swishy pants or sweatpants), laundry bag and other things you keep. Cleats were your own responsibility, although you could order through the team if you wanted to match. Game socks were free, game towels illegal except for the QB & C, locker room towels and stuff were provided. Laundry was done for you daily. Replacement parts, socks, jocks, helmet stickers, etc. were free.

We also had photo day, pretty sure those costs were above and beyond.

Our road trip per diem, depending on the class of the restaurant we stopped at, we would sometimes get off the bus and a coach would stand there with a stack of bills ... you would walk by and get a five and two ones or something.

On some road trips, we would have a walk-through at the other team's field or some random HS field, dine high class, with our suits on, then go to the movies.

When we changed coaches, we would leave as late as possible when we had to travel the day before, so we wouldn't miss that much class, and so that when we got to the hotel, we had time for walk through and position meetings, then bed.

Both styles were meant to keep players busy and out of trouble in the new city.

Game day you do a big breakfast really early (like 7-8 a.m. so it settles well before kickoff) then go back to sleep or burn your nervous energy some other way, meet, load up the bus, head to the field, do the game day routine.

I know that was a ramble, but I guess it was meant to show how quickly a road trip can become really expensive. Lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that players and coaches really only experience and know about.

Maybe some coaches or ex-coaches with inside knowledge of team budgets could post and shed some light on the costs.

And think about (probably a few thousand) dollars a year that are spent on t-shirts, sweatshirts, hats etc that are bought by parents, fans, friends.  In all reality that money ends up in the hands of the school......

-And how about paying for security for gameday?  Im sure just the Cortland/Ithaca must run into the thousands with outside police having to work as well.....

-And your right about the gameday staff.  Most of these workers are students that are on work-study programs that do other things for the school.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?

Why?  Are you predicting a Capital upset as MUC blows a 35 point halftime lead? :o ::) :D ;D 8)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 11, 2006, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?

Why?  Are you predicting a Capital upset as MUC blows a 35 point halftime lead? :o ::) :D ;D 8)

Nope, just a matchup of two (Probable) Top 4 (or better) teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?

Why?  Are you predicting a Capital upset as MUC blows a 35 point halftime lead? :o ::) :D ;D 8)

Nope, just a matchup of two (Probable) Top 4 (or better) teams.

Okay, Capital might be a Top 4 that week.  Are they overcoming a 21-point deficit? ???

MUC has lost ONU O-N-E regular season game in the 21st century, and only two regular season games in the last 14 1/2 seasons.  There is no excitement in a 1:150 chance of MUC regular loss.  (How many Top 25 teams has MUC defeated in the last 14 1/2 years?  (6 per year times 14 years = 84?)

The majority of D3 Pollsters say that MUC's winning the Stagg Bowl is a foregone conclusion.  That means that MUC is on the banner for another year and will get front page coverage the week of the Stagg.

I appreciate the ATN tour, but the probability that Capital will upset MUC that weekend is slim.  Give the coverage to 2 teams that have as many Stagg Bowls appearances in the last 2 years as MUC and have scheduled a great (and meaningful in-region) game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 11, 2006, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?

Why?  Are you predicting a Capital upset as MUC blows a 35 point halftime lead? :o ::) :D ;D 8)

Nope, just a matchup of two (Probable) Top 4 (or better) teams.

Okay, Capital might be a Top 4 that week.  Are they overcoming a 21-point deficit? ???

MUC has lost ONU O-N-E regular season game in the 21st century, and only two regular season games in the last 14 1/2 seasons.  There is no excitement in a 1:150 chance of MUC regular loss.  (How many Top 25 teams has MUC defeated in the last 14 1/2 years?  (6 per year times 14 years = 84?)

The majority of D3 Pollsters say that MUC's winning the Stagg Bowl is a foregone conclusion.  That means that MUC is on the banner for another year and will get front page coverage the week of the Stagg.

I appreciate the ATN tour, but the probability that Capital will upset MUC that weekend is slim.  Give the coverage to 2 teams that have as many Stagg Bowls appearances in the last 2 years as MUC and have scheduled a great (and meaningful in-region) game.

I didn't say you had to go, there are others that work for the site aren't there?  Most MUC fans (and those inside the program from what has been posted) thought that Capital gave MUC the best game last year (second meeting).  This will be the game of the year in the OAC and possibly the region in the regular season.

But, I digress.  We'll just wait for the normal playoff visit we receive from Pat each November (or Early December).  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: crusader26 on October 11, 2006, 05:52:40 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 10:56:33 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 09:41:31 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?

Why?  Are you predicting a Capital upset as MUC blows a 35 point halftime lead? :o ::) :D ;D 8)

Nope, just a matchup of two (Probable) Top 4 (or better) teams.

Okay, Capital might be a Top 4 that week.  Are they overcoming a 21-point deficit? ???

MUC has lost ONU O-N-E regular season game in the 21st century, and only two regular season games in the last 14 1/2 seasons.  There is no excitement in a 1:150 chance of MUC regular loss.  (How many Top 25 teams has MUC defeated in the last 14 1/2 years?  (6 per year times 14 years = 84?)

The majority of D3 Pollsters say that MUC's winning the Stagg Bowl is a foregone conclusion.  That means that MUC is on the banner for another year and will get front page coverage the week of the Stagg.

I appreciate the ATN tour, but the probability that Capital will upset MUC that weekend is slim.  Give the coverage to 2 teams that have as many Stagg Bowls appearances in the last 2 years as MUC and have scheduled a great (and meaningful in-region) game.

I didn't say you had to go, there are others that work for the site aren't there?  Most MUC fans (and those inside the program from what has been posted) thought that Capital gave MUC the best game last year (second meeting).  This will be the game of the year in the OAC and possibly the region in the regular season.

But, I digress.  We'll just wait for the normal playoff visit we receive from Pat each November (or Early December).  :)

I am happy this game is not being hyped up across the country.  The last time it was this hyped was when Cap went to MUC in 2003, as both teams were 6-0.  Cap lost 35-7, then lost the following week to BW 40-22 and ended with an 8-2 record.  Cap needs to worry about this weekend against ONU, then follow up with cross-town rival Otterbein.  MUC gets scary good when the game becomes hyped, maybe it is the black jerseys they bring out??
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 11, 2006, 06:11:42 PM
MUC gets scary good whenever they set foot on the playing surface.   :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dabein22 on October 11, 2006, 07:32:08 PM
I'm glad to see the around the nation "world tour", but without a stop in the OAC how can you justify that?  I am sure there are other great games around the country, but everyone knows the OAC in general and Mount specifically are the premier conference and team in the nation.  Possible 1 vs. 4 in a rematch of maybe the game of the playoffs last season seems like a no-brainer.  Granted, the schedule doesn't really help as you will be attending another very good game, but come on, not coming to Mount vs. Capital would be like not showing Ohio State vs. Michigan.

Mount will probably win and probaly win big.  As history tells us they usually do.  That being said Cap has the best chance to knock them off this season and ONU proved it could be done.  Therefore, if it did happen it is instant news and I do not see how you can justify not having a representative of some kind at the game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2006, 09:41:34 PM
I know you're a Cap fan but I don't think you realize how many times Keith and I have seen the OAC in the past five or so years. There's other conferences on the planet.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2006, 09:51:44 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2006, 09:41:34 PM
I know you're a Cap fan but I don't think you realize how many times Keith and I have seen the OAC in the past five or so years. There's other conferences on the planet.

Pat,  you jumped in there while I was typing!  You also said it in a more diplomatic  manner.

I know that you and Keith have been to see ASC teams in several venues.  Thanks for the time you take to see our teams.  You guys have seen 15-30 D3 games a year to more than a decade.  How many more games will you need to attend to see something different?  Why, I bet you and Keith could be substitute offensive co-ordinators for Mount Union! :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on October 11, 2006, 09:59:26 PM
Apparantly winning every game and almost every championship isn't good enough For the Mount Union-ites!  Honestly there has been more than enough Mount coverage.  Give the little guys a chance.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 11, 2006, 10:00:01 PM
Still hasnt seen on in Ithaca right?  I guarentee you theres no place like it in the country watching a game at Ithaca from the home stands...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on October 11, 2006, 10:04:35 PM
I certainly agree with that statement, JU...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2006, 10:53:35 PM
Quote from: portgrad2004 on October 11, 2006, 09:59:26 PM
Apparantly winning every game and almost every championship isn't good enough For the Mount Union-ites!  Honestly there has been more than enough Mount coverage.  Give the little guys a chance.

That's a Capital fan, not a Mount fan.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on October 11, 2006, 11:08:51 PM
Hmmm, that puts a cramp on my argument...I read the previous posts too, and I guess I was half asleep!  I will apologize to the mount.

Still, I think it's great that you have spread the love on this D3 Road trip!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 12, 2006, 05:24:47 AM
One last comment on this and then I swear I will let it go.  After reading the first paragraph on this "tour of games" Kieth was taking on, I thought the MUC-CU game would be a perfect fit:

QuoteD3football.com is pleased to announce its Run to the Playoffs tour, a month-long up-close look at key showdowns in four states between probable postseason participants in each week's Around the Nation column and on one Game of the Week broadcast.

Key showdown:  MUC #1, Cap #4
Probably postseason participants:  Uh, yeah.

So, when the game wasn't included, I was a bit surprised.  I am not trying to steal any spotlight from anyone, just thought that this could be a good game and fit the bill of the description.  Anyways, have a good trip Kieth and we'll see you later this year in A-town, if not in Salem.  Always enjoy your column!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 12, 2006, 07:45:19 AM
Not to speak for Pat, but I assume if they really wanted to see a Cap/MUC match-up, they could just wait until the playoffs.  Halfway thru the regualr season and it sure doesn't look like anyone else in the North Region is going to challenge the 2 purples.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 12, 2006, 08:18:57 AM
Quote from: hscoach on October 12, 2006, 07:45:19 AM
Not to speak for Pat, but I assume if they really wanted to see a Cap/MUC match-up, they could just wait until the playoffs.  Halfway thru the regualr season and it sure doesn't look like anyone else in the North Region is going to challenge the 2 purples.

They probably won't send Capital to the East Bracket as they did John Carroll in 2002, so you are probably right about the Quarterfinals.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 12, 2006, 08:43:02 AM
They could send Cap to the South, ONU to the East and MUC to the North and then we could see some real bracket action.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 12, 2006, 10:33:28 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 12, 2006, 08:43:02 AM
They could send Cap to the South, ONU to the East and MUC to the North and then we could see some real bracket action.  :)

As long as we maintain "geographical proximity"!   :D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: crusader26 on October 12, 2006, 12:00:12 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 12, 2006, 08:43:02 AM
They could send Cap to the South, ONU to the East and MUC to the North and then we could see some real bracket action.  :)

Maybe the best post, yet!!  Would love to see this & everyone's argument...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 12, 2006, 03:10:12 PM
Good joint column, guys ... and while UMHB-Trinity would (sigh) be the usual first-round matchup, holding the game in Belton would be a first.  Each of the previous playoff matchups have been in San Antonio. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 12, 2006, 04:35:57 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 11, 2006, 09:38:32 AM
No one from D3Football coming to the MUC vs. CU game on 10/28/06?

It was certainly a tough choice between that and UMHB-UWW.

Capital probably deserves the pub, but I know I've been let down by too many games in Alliance that look like big games and become blowouts. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 12, 2006, 05:18:09 PM
Same here.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 12, 2006, 05:24:46 PM
A couple of quick things ...

There are other people who "volunteer" for the site, but not too many who are paid employees. And among those, I don't know that Pat takes a salary and I take enough to buy me a laptop and let my wife go shopping so she can forget about all those Saturdays that I stick her with the kids.

I'm not sure we have anyone who could be at the MUC-Capital game ... although based on last year's games, it should be "a game." But you really never know, especially with Mount Union playing as well as they have been playing.

I have seen the ASC in Wisconsin, Ohio, Virginia and again in Va. at the Stagg Bowl, but I have never been to Texas. Not knowing that La Crosse-Whitewater would be a game worth going to, I got all lathered up for Whitewater going to Texas.

It's safe to say that Mount Union and Capital will get covered down the line, but you could make that argument for most of the teams on the trip, so that doesn't quite apply.

Basically we/I can only be in one place each weekend (unless there are 7 p.m. kickoffs within about 100 miles of a 1 p.m. game), so we had to pick one.

Doesn't mean the OAC doesn't deserve it.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dabein22 on October 12, 2006, 06:14:57 PM
When I questioned the decision to skip the game in Alliance on Oct. 28 it was more for some national recognition for CU.  Mount gets and deserves the national spotlight all the time, but the CU players, especially the upperclassmen who have helped turn this program around, deserve some recognition as well.  Besides, that is a good opportunity to show the rest of the country how tough the OAC is, EVERY YEAR.  I hope the game lives up to the hype (maybe even as exciting as last year's playoff game), but I have my doubts.  REALLY, I just hope this game still means something when the two teams meet (ie. no CU slip-ups to ONU and OTT).  Enjoy your game in Texas and hopefully there will be a rematch you can attend!!!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 12, 2006, 08:13:30 PM
Thanks for your replies Kieth.  They were informative, and gave the information that was originally requested.  I wasn't meaning to "hog" the spotlight for the Raiders or demean the game you are going to on the 28th, just thought that 1 vs 4 deserved some consideration.  I guess that if it was any other team besides MUC, it would be a different story.  Have a great time in TX and we hope to see you in Alliance later this year, if not Salem.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 14, 2006, 10:19:43 PM
I take it back.  No need to come to Alliance on Oct. 28th.  Won't be a game.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 15, 2006, 12:38:02 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on October 14, 2006, 10:19:43 PM
I take it back.  No need to come to Alliance on Oct. 28th.  Won't be a game.  ;)

Since I will take MUC (unless hscoach puts an absurd spread on the game - and with MUC, who knows what number is absurd!), I sure hope LK and his troops aren't reading (or at least believing!) this stuff!  Cap IS good enough to beat an overconfident, lackadaisical Mount (though not an even 'average' Mount).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 16, 2006, 12:13:23 AM
If Baldwin-Wallace or Capital can't push Mount Union, I'm afraid some really good teams are going to get embarassed in the playoffs' early rounds, as usual.

Another reason I wanted to go to UMHB-UWW, and also Linfield-HSU, which I couldn't attend earlier in the year ... We want to encourage that kind of aggressive scheduling by saying "yes, we'll cover you if you schedule games people want to see."

Sounds basic, but not every coach/program feels the same way ... but with the AQ in place, we all win when teams schedule other teams at their level of competitiveness, high or low.

It's definitely improved over the years. Most teams can get 10 D3 games if they try, at least.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: CNULifer on October 17, 2006, 02:09:52 AM
K-mack,

You need to come look at the south region fan poll.  We got three texas guys and two BC guys trying tell us that 3 of the 4 south teams are from texas.  CNU is 5th.  I just read what you said about UMHB and CNU game.  I was there as well and agree with you.  The season may prove both of us wrong but not yet.  set those guys straight, they don't take differing opinions lightly over there.  Big fish in little pond syndrome.  from a guppy that is tired of being repressed by the sharks that be.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 17, 2006, 03:02:35 AM
Yawn.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on October 17, 2006, 09:24:24 PM
CNULifer,
How bout a widdle kiss to make it all better.... :-*

Get over yourself and allow opinion to be opinion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2006, 09:20:06 PM
Quote from: CNULifer on October 17, 2006, 02:09:52 AM
K-mack,

You need to come look at the south region fan poll.  We got three texas guys and two BC guys trying tell us that 3 of the 4 south teams are from texas.  CNU is 5th.  I just read what you said about UMHB and CNU game.  I was there as well and agree with you.  The season may prove both of us wrong but not yet.  set those guys straight, they don't take differing opinions lightly over there.  Big fish in little pond syndrome.  from a guppy that is tired of being repressed by the sharks that be.

Way I see it CNU,
You've got the thing that really matters -- the W. If I don't make it over there to help you out, keep that in mind :)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2006, 09:21:06 PM
As promised in this week's ATN ... Draddy Trophy semifinalists:

(Wilhelm Leinemann ... great football name!)

School, Nominee
Allegheny (Pa.), James Savage
Bates (Maine), James Walker
Bethel (Minn.), Kirby Carr
Carnegie Mellon (Pa.), Aaron Lewis
Case Western Reserve (Ohio), Thomas Brew
Centre (Ky.), Kevin Phelps
Chicago, Benjamin Potts
Defiance (Ohio), Tyler Haines
Gettysburg (Pa.), Dain Alaia
Greensboro (N.C.), Christopher Palme
Illinois College, Brandon Rhea
Ithaca (N.Y.), Justin Brunell
Johns Hopkins (Md.), Brian Nickel
Kenyon (Ohio), Ryan Lacy
Middlebury (Vt.), Scott Secor
Millsaps (Miss.), Josh Hanna
The College of New Jersey, Ryan Ross
Pomona (Calif.), Matthew Barbour
Redlands (Calif.), Jeffrey Gazaille
Rowan (N.J.), Mike Orihel
Saint John's (Minn.), Jamie Steffensmeier
Salisbury (Md.), Wilhelm Leinemann
Shenandoah (Va.), Justin Mosser
St. Thomas (Minn.), P.J. Theisen
Texas Lutheran, Jake Robbins
Trinity (Conn.), Kevin Swiniarski
Utica (N.Y.), Michael Sanchez
Wartburg (Iowa), Nick Noble
Washington U. in St. Louis, Drew Wethington
Wisconsin - Eau Claire, Matthew Evensen
Wisconsin - Stevens Pt., Michael Hayes
Wittenberg (Ohio), Tristan Murray
Wooster (Ohio), Rick Drushal
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Coleman on October 25, 2006, 11:46:59 PM
Great column, Keith.

A couple of things I'd like to point out:
While MN does border Iowa, and we are known for our forests and lakes...

Iowa crept into MN a long time ago.... South of the Twin Cities is nothing but farmland. It makes for a vastly boring drive... in under 4 hours.

Yeah.

When do I get the +1 Karma? :)

It was great to see you again, next time.... Stagg?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 26, 2006, 12:56:16 AM
I'm not sure how great a column that was ... we'll see if people respond to my rambling positively or not.

I did have trouble getting down to 15 key games for the weekend though. :shock:

The geography of states that you're not from can be really foreign. It took me years to realize that Colorado (you think Rocky mountains) and Kansas (plains) share a border. Iowa and Minnesota are two that have such different reputations, you'd hardly think they touch.

I will see you at the Stagg Bowl if not sooner. I guess you are Midwest for a while and I'll be trying to take ground-travel trips after three consecutive weeks of flying.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: patcummings on October 26, 2006, 01:46:58 AM
Coming from someone who has flown more than 100 times so far this year...the Embraer 170 is actually not that small a plane.

Most versions hold up to 70 seats, some can go as high as 90.

The Embraer 135/145 has one seat on one side and two on the other, for around 18 rows.

The Canadair series of jets typically hold 50 seats.

The Saab-340 rolls around with 34 seats.

The de-Havilland Dash puddle-jumps with about 37 seats.

And old reliable, the Beechcraft 1900 struggles to get up with 19 peeps.

Mr. McMillan - you were flying high on the wings of fine Brazilian engineering with a myriad of seats more than many other regional jets.  To be honest - I'm surprised the Embraer 170 even got sent to Iowa - that seems too big in my flight experience.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 26, 2006, 02:11:15 AM
Geek. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 26, 2006, 10:22:47 AM
Quote from: patcummings on October 26, 2006, 01:46:58 AM
Coming from someone who has flown more than 100 times so far this year...the Embraer 170 is actually not that small a plane.

The Embraer is tiny if you are an ex-football player, 6'6", either, or both.  ;-) 
Maybe not when compared to a prop job, but let me tell you, cramming a 6'6" body into one of those little seats isn't much fun.  And I'm not even going to go into the ramifications of using the Embraer's WC. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dc_has_been on October 26, 2006, 12:27:05 PM
"With the Yellow Jackets hosting the Panthers next week, they control their fate beginning Saturday."  From Around the Nation: Five games to watch.  Defiance will host the Grizzlies from Franklin next week.  They played Hanover Panthers & won last week in a lackluster performance.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 26, 2006, 01:35:05 PM
Quote from: patcummings on October 26, 2006, 01:46:58 AM
Coming from someone who has flown more than 100 times so far this year...the Embraer 170 is actually not that small a plane.

Most versions hold up to 70 seats, some can go as high as 90.

The Embraer 135/145 has one seat on one side and two on the other, for around 18 rows.

The Canadair series of jets typically hold 50 seats.

The Saab-340 rolls around with 34 seats.

The de-Havilland Dash puddle-jumps with about 37 seats.

And old reliable, the Beechcraft 1900 struggles to get up with 19 peeps.

Mr. McMillan - you were flying high on the wings of fine Brazilian engineering with a myriad of seats more than many other regional jets.  To be honest - I'm surprised the Embraer 170 even got sent to Iowa - that seems too big in my flight experience.

Yeah,
I've flown on all those other planes, even took a 20-seat prop once from Moses Lake, Wash. to Seattle on Horizon Air (maybe the Beechcraft you mention). I resisted the urge to call it a puddle-jumper because it was a legit jet.

I actually read those cards on Northwest that tell you about their entire fleet.

I was a little surprised I'd never even heard of Embraer.

But I definitely don't fly nearly as much as you, so I'm not shockd you know.

Grizzlies / Panthers ... D'oh.

I did know it was Franklin, FWIW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: CNULifer on October 26, 2006, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: mhb8904 on October 17, 2006, 09:24:24 PM
CNULifer,
How bout a widdle kiss to make it all better.... :-*

Get over yourself and allow opinion to be opinion.

Don't need a kiss.

NCAA South region ranking is good enough.

With that said, I am a big fan of UMHB (they are pretty tough).  As a matter of fact I root for all the teams CNU plays against (except the week they play CNU of course).  In DIII you don't get to see many teams play like DI with TV coverage.  Having seen all of the teams CNU has played, I try to keep up with them and see how they are progressing.  It is a fun underground grass roots kind of experience.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 26, 2006, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: CNULifer on October 26, 2006, 01:37:00 PM
It is a fun underground grass roots kind of experience.

I like that term for it. Good stuff.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: CNULifer on October 26, 2006, 01:49:57 PM
Oh crap I said something nice and everybody is taking my bad Karma away!!! ;)
I better mix it up with somebody real quick.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dc_has_been on October 26, 2006, 02:04:16 PM
No worries K-Mack just the educator coming out in me.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on October 26, 2006, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: CNULifer on October 26, 2006, 01:37:00 PM
It is a fun underground grass roots kind of experience.

Agreed! +1 to you!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 26, 2006, 08:40:50 PM
The real puddle jumpers were the 16 seat prop planes that Pilgrim Air used to fly between New London and JFK, I flew on more than one of those while in the Navy.  One time the pilot lost most of his instruments and followed the highway to JFK.  Fun.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Foss on October 26, 2006, 10:41:16 PM
K-Mack, nice job again this week. Regarding your "Five games to watch" section, which included 10 additional games to keep an eye on - I thought you might include the #11 Whitworth at Willamette game. Willamette has defeated Whitworth the last three seasons, ruining their playoffs hopes the last two. It would seem Whitworth would be the heavy favorite, but they were favored last year as well and were stopped by the Bearcats. Whitworth faces Linfield the following week so winning the Willamette game (for the 1st time in 4 years) is potentially huge for them and their playoff hopes, and also keeps their perfect record intact heading into the Linfield contest.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2006, 03:26:16 AM
Well,
Just a couple thoughts on UMHB-UWW, since I've seen both teams and wasn't able to write anything for the front page on it.

  I've been doing this long enough to know you can never assume two teams from different conferences will play a close game; many a big D3 game has become a blowout.

I think these two teams match up well in terms of being maybe the two most physical teams I've seen, and not just this season. Mount Union has had a couple of dominant lines, but at their height, UMHB could just line up and maul. They really only did that on one drive vs. CNU, so maybe since it's later in the season they have their offfense figured out a bit. That game was their first with a new coordinator.

Looks like Whitewater has used FB Travis Reuland, the closest back to Beaver -- literally -- as its main ballcarrier. But with such a multi-pronged passing game, I wouldn't be surprised to see their big plays come through the air.

The both run the ball really well, without gimmicks or fancy schemes ... I think Whitewater is probably good enough to survive without Beaver, but on the road, maybe they wouldn't be the so-called favorite anymore.

Both teams can throw well enough, but running is their bread and butter, and the front 7s and O-lines may decide this one.

With the unfamiliarity, maybe some trick plays will come out, but I don't know if that fits either team's style.

Solid coaching on both sides, good QB play, some weapons at receiver/TE. It should be a good one.

This is as big as it gets, non-confernence regular season in Division III.

We'll be on the air at 12:30 CST/1:30 Eastern with more detail.

g'night.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2006, 09:30:40 AM
Also watch the UMHB punting game.   Hunter Hamrick is excellent.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2006, 11:25:54 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2006, 09:30:40 AM
Also watch the UMHB punting game.   Hunter Hamrick is excellent.

He got a lot of work today. Whitewater got a nice day from Nick Croak too. In a tight defensive struggle where field position is paramount, the importance of a good punter really shines through.

More initial thoughts on the game day from Alliance & Belton blog. I'll be writing about this for ATN this week as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KennethK on October 30, 2006, 12:44:30 PM
Anyone know where the final four games are played this year.  Is it by seed or does it change each year by region?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 30, 2006, 01:58:52 PM
Quote from: KennethK on October 30, 2006, 12:44:30 PM
Anyone know where the final four games are played this year.  Is it by seed or does it change each year by region?

No one knows yet. As the four brackets are set up, the selection committee also ranks the four brackets (appearently by assigning a 1-4 rank to the top seed of each bracket and having that serve as each bracket's seed). A higher seeded team will always host, but if seeds of semi-final teams are equal - they refer to the seeding of their respective brackets.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 31, 2006, 10:38:47 AM
It's safe to assume however that Mount and Whitewater will be the #1 and #2 seeds nationally, which means the East and South brackets will be traveling in the semi's if the higher seeded teams hold serve.

Only real question is which bracket (East or South) has to go thru MUC's or WWW's bracket to get to Salem.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 31, 2006, 11:58:29 AM
Quote from: hscoach on October 31, 2006, 10:38:47 AM
It's safe to assume however that Mount and Whitewater will be the #1 and #2 seeds nationally, which means the East and South brackets will be traveling in the semi's if the higher seeded teams hold serve.

Only real question is which bracket (East or South) has to go thru MUC's or WWW's bracket to get to Salem.

That's true. While not predetermined, the national #1 and #2 are pretty obvious. Does Wesley and the 'South' look to be the likely #3? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 31, 2006, 06:16:09 PM
 Well the concensus around the boards has Wesley possibly being the #1 seed in the East if certain teams lose.  And considering that the Wolverines are already ranked #1 in the south I would think that they are right now the #3 seed with the 4th seed going to whatever bracket isn't in. That could change I suppose with an upset or two. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 31, 2006, 06:26:20 PM
If Cortland State beats Rowan and Ithaca to finish undefeated, I would expect them to be the other No. 1 seed.

Of course, they could lose both games and miss the playoffs at this juncture, so it's really up in the air.

If not Cortland, I would go with Wilkes if they finish unbeaten or Hobart if they beat Union.

I think any of these teams could logically function as a No. 1, and there are plenty of East playoff-worthy teams at this point, so I would expect Wesley to top out in the South.

I don't think the Wolverines have the SOS to jump UWW or MUC, but in theory, if the criteria were right, they could host even though the Polls think UWW and MUC are 2 and 1.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 31, 2006, 10:46:07 PM
Unfairly, but conveniently, copied from the Pool C thread:

Quote from: gordonmann on October 29, 2006, 10:46:23 AM
Matt:

Nice numbers crunching.

Heck yeah. I love when I'm thinking about something and someone else has already gone through the numbers and scenarios.

Taking these numbers, subbing NC for Wheaton on the Pool A list and not considering the two-regional-loss teams at the moment, these are our unofficial likely playoff contenders:

Quote from: Matt Barnhart (kid) on October 29, 2006, 10:22:00 AM
Assuming these are the Pool A...

Mary Hardin-Baylor ASC
Dickinson Centennial
North Central CCIW
St. John Fisher Empire 8
Mt. St. Joseph HCAC
Concordia (Wis.) IBFC
Central IIAC
Hobart Liberty League
Hope MIAA
Wilkes MAC
St. Norbert MWC
St. John's MIAC
Curry NEFC
Cortland State NJAC
Wabash NCAC
Mount Union OAC
Washington & Lee ODAC
Occidental SCIAC
Trinity (Texas) SCAC
Averett USAC
UW-Whitewater WIAC

Here are the Pool B candidates with one or less regional losses...

Carnegie Mellon 10.286    7-0, 8-0
Whitworth    9.429    7-0, 8-0
Wesley      11.400    5-0, 8-0
Rockford    9.625    7-1, 7-2
Wash. and Jeff.   9.429    6-1, 7-1
Linfield    10.200    4-1, 5-2

I'll just take the top four listed Pool B teams and place the rest with the Pool C to get an idea of who will be battling for the seven remaining at-large bids...

Springfield    11.375    7-1, 7-1 (vs 3-5 Hartwick, at 2-6 Norwich)
Capital    11.250    7-1, 7-1 (vs 1-7 Muskingum, at 6-2 Baldwin-Wallace)
Wartburg    10.625    7-1, 7-1 (vs 2-6 Cornell, vs 4-4 Dubuque)
Bethel       10.500    7-1, 7-1 (vs 0-8 Augsburg, at 9-0 St. John's)
Coast Guard    10.125    7-1, 7-1 (vs 1-7 Framingham State)
Franklin    9.625    7-1, 7-1 (at 6-2 Defiance, vs 3-5 Hanover)
Hardin-Simmons    11.143    6-1, 6-1 (at 5-3 Texas Lutheran, vs 3-6 McMurry)
Union       10.286    6-1, 6-1 (at 7-0 Hobart, at 5-2 RPI)
Chr. Newport     9.429     6-1, 6-2 (vs 6-2 Averett, vs 2-5 Ferrum)
Ithaca       9.286    6-1, 7-1 (at 6-2 Alfred, at 8-0 Cortland State)
UW-La Crosse    9.800    4-1, 6-1 (vs 3-5 UW-River Falls, at 4-4 UW-Oshkosh)
Rowan       9.000    4-1, 5-2 (vs 8-0 Cortland State, vs 1-7 William Paterson)

OK,
I took W&J and Linfield out of the Pool C picture for now, and struck through Rockford and Coast Guard, who I don't think have a chance where they are listed. Coast Guard must beat Curry in the NEFC title game to go, in my humble opinion.

Here are Pool A league races worth watching/still up in the air:

CCIW: North Central/Wheaton/Augustana
E8: Ithaca/Springfield/SJF (Alfred technically alive, but needs upsets)
LL: Hobart/Union/Rochester (still plays Hobart)
MIAC: St. John's/Bethel
NCAC: Wittenberg/Wabash (The Tigers won 19-17, and both have 1 NCAC loss)
NEFC: Curry/Coast Guard
NJAC: Rowan/Cortland
SCAC: Trinity/Millsaps
ODAC: W&L/E&H/Guilford (Bridgewater, H-SC alive but might lose tiebreakers)
USAC: CNU/Averett

Clinched* or very likely won:
ASC: UMHB
CC: Dickinson
HCAC: MSJ* .... (Franklin/Defiance play this week for Pool C chance)
IBFC: Concordia (Wis.)*
IIAC: Central
MAC: Wilkes (King's, DelVal, Widener technically alive)
MWC: St. Norbert *
OAC: Mount Union
SCIAC Occidental *
WIAC: UW-Whitewater

And then there's this:
Quote from: kirasdad on October 30, 2006, 07:19:38 PM
Quote from: Bill McCabe on October 30, 2006, 01:52:53 PM
Key head to head games this week that will impact the playoffs:  (Conf. Records)

Averett (5-0) @ CNU (4-1)
Ithaca (4-1) @ Alfred (3-1)
Franklin (4-1) @ Defiance (4-1)
Hope (5-0) @ Olivet (4-1)
Union (4-0) @ Hobart (4-0)
Bethel (5-1) @ St. Johns (7-0)
Cortland State (6-0) @ Rowan (4-1)
Whitworth (4-0) @ Linfield (4-0)

Don't forget Emory & Henry (3-1) at Washington and Lee (4-1)

So basically is this everything we need to know in one place? If so, sah-weeet!

Let me know if I missed, misappropriated or miscalculated anything.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 31, 2006, 11:29:46 PM
Wheaton should be on the Pool C likely list above.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 01, 2006, 06:40:19 PM
Boy if King's beats Wilkes what happens?? Those schools are virtually across an alley form each other.. What a week it must be up there?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2006, 01:10:59 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 01, 2006, 06:40:19 PM
Boy if King's beats Wilkes what happens?? Those schools are virtually across an alley form each other.. What a week it must be up there?

King's picked up its second MAC loss, if I'm not mistaken, but until then they were just like Millsaps ... quietly hanging around even though they had just as much chance at the AQ as the overwhelming favorite.

Weird that W&L gets clubbed and can still clinch this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 02, 2006, 06:26:32 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 02, 2006, 01:10:59 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 01, 2006, 06:40:19 PM
Boy if King's beats Wilkes what happens?? Those schools are virtually across an alley form each other.. What a week it must be up there?

King's picked up its second MAC loss, if I'm not mistaken, but until then they were just like Millsaps ... quietly hanging around even though they had just as much chance at the AQ as the overwhelming favorite.

Weird that W&L gets clubbed and can still clinch this week.

/quote]

   Geesh I should have known that,  i.e 2 losses I live 5 miles from DelVal
I guess there will be some good ECAC games K-Mack!! Better than not havong any games for some good schools!! Still a Kings win would mess up or clear up the East seatings
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 02, 2006, 06:54:49 PM
K-Mack -

You have your rankings mixed up on this preview.  Although, if Union's wins, they could easily just swap out and be what you wrote here:

No. 14 Union (6-1) at No. 20 Hobart (7-0)
Both of these teams seem to be less dominant than their fans expected after last season's playoff runs, but each is poised to go back. Union can clinch the Liberty League with a win, but Hobart still needs to beat 6-2 Rochester in its finale to wrap the league up. The Statesmen also make good Pool C candidates, although the Dutchmen, who lost to Springfield 38-30 early on, cannot afford another defeat. The statistical comparison does not really favor either team, with Union's 210 rushing yards per game being the only outstanding stat. The Dutchmen are slightly more impressive on offense, and the two are about equal on defense. Union's Tom Arcidiacono is the nation's third-leading rusher, and went for 85 yards and a score in last season's 28-18 win vs. Hobart.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2006, 09:37:45 PM
You are correct. Silly of me to look at the top 25 and repeat "14 and 20" under my breath until I type it in.

I will fix.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 03, 2006, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 02, 2006, 09:37:45 PM
You are correct. Silly of me to look at the top 25 and repeat "14 and 20" under my breath until I type it in.

I will fix.

Not a big deal, but hey, we Bart fans want to see our guys keep their rankings while they still can!  I remain hopefully optimistic about the game tomorrow, but you never know what can happen when Bart and Union mix it up!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 2DragD1 on November 03, 2006, 01:01:36 PM
enough talk about the Union v Hobart game (i wouldn't be surprised if Hobart ends the season with 2 losses, U of R plays them tough every year and have the team to do it this year) anyways... Cortland v Rowan is where it's at tomorrow.  A red dragon win would eliminate the Profs from the playoffs which is a shock to the D3 world.  Cortland has something to prove in the NJAC. It should be a great battle for both D's which are top in the NJAC and D3.



tip for Union: watch out for those tricky Hobart plays it could cost you the game, good-luck to both
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 05, 2006, 06:58:56 PM
Well, as much as I like being in South Jersey, not sure if Cortland-Rowan was where it was at yesterday.

I guess it was, two great defenses, overtime game, what more can you ask for ... I just haven't seen double digits in regulation since Central scored 14 points in the first half vs. Cornell two and a half weeks ago ;)

It's cool though, there was a lot to watch and will be a lot to write about this week. I think I have a neat way to present it too.

Neat-o!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2006, 07:37:59 PM
K-Mack, I imagine you've written about it but I can't recall - did you play O or D?

Sounds like your recent experiences would warm the heart of a D guy, but might be rather appalling for an O! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2006, 12:51:13 AM
I played defense, three years as a corner, the last as a free safety.

My complaints are kind of facetious. I'd take a 7-3 or 14-7 game over a 45-10 one anyday. I like 'em interesting until the end.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 2DragD1 on November 06, 2006, 11:19:16 AM
playing I would always take the 2+ score lead or lop-sided win, but now watching from the stands and being a defensive guy, 14-7 in OT says one hell of a battle and is fun to watch, every play and inch counts. While a 45-35 game could be more exciting to some, to me it says a shoot out with poor defense.  Good to hear from some one who enjoys a good D-battle as much as me.

JUG WEEK IN CORTLAND.........
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on November 09, 2006, 06:51:24 PM
pssst k-mack... 104th meeting between RPI and Union this saturday. Oldest (1886) college FB rivalry in NY... 3rd in the nation... in case you want to mention that in ATN. Gotta trophy made up and everything.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2006, 08:54:12 PM
Quote from: 'gro on November 09, 2006, 06:51:24 PM
pssst k-mack... 104th meeting between RPI and Union this saturday. Oldest (1886) college FB rivalry in NY... 3rd in the nation... in case you want to mention that in ATN. Gotta trophy made up and everything.

Yeah, my bad on that one. If you saw the handwritten scribble sheet I was working off of this week, you'd forgive me. I had one column for games affecting the playoffs and one for rivalries and another for those pesky out of division games, and Union @ RPI was in the wrong group and I missed it.

My understanding is some folks raised a stink about it and it has since been fixed.

Maybe if you threw some Nikes on that trophy, the young bucks would pay more attention.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 10, 2006, 02:29:23 PM
ATN has been updated since it was first posted Thursday with players who stood out along the way and other observations from the trips, the Who are those guys final tally and some tidbits for But Don't Quote Me.

I did a Five Games to Watch for last night but mis-hit a quick key, lost it and couldn't get it back. I ended up not having time to recreate it, but the games to watch this week are pretty obvious, since most of them have playoff implications or are big rivalry games, and they were already mentioned in the column anyway.

The only neat thing I'd done was list five games which could ruin playoff hopes, which also functioned as the upset specials, since at least one of them, I believe, will lose:
Ithaca at Cortland
Rochester at Hobart
Capital at Baldwin-Wallace
Dubuque at Wartburg
St. John Fisher at Alfred

Most of my reasoning is long gone, but I know it should really help Wartburg to be at home, as Dubuque has been a big surprise but not that good on the Road, and Waverly is a big advantage for the Knights. SJF and Capital play pretty even teams (one-loss vs. two-loss) on the road, while Hobart and Cortland at least get the same scenario but at home. Cortland is without its top 2 QBs but should dig deep in a rivalry game. Alfred and Ithaca have faint playoff hopes if enough teams lose.

Other games to watch were
Carnegie Mellon at Thiel (50-48 in 3 OT last year)
Union @ RPI (Dutchman's Shoes rivalry, although Union leads like 41-12)
Curry @ Coast Guard (NEFC Championship Game)
Bethel @ SJU (MIAC title)
Trinity at Millsaps (SCAC title)
William Paterson @ Rowan (WPU won last year)

Also keep an eye on
La Crosse at Oshkosh (a playoff bid can be blown here too)
Carthage at North Central (same)
DelVal at Widener
Dickinson at Ursinus
W&L at Case Western (no gimme)

Had to get those on record, even if it had to be informally (and less informatively) here instead of in ATN.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 10, 2006, 07:35:37 PM
Bart-Rocho may not be as fancy as "Union vs. RPI in the Shoeapalooza," but it will be the 96 or 97th meeting between the schools, making it one of Hobart's oldest (if not THE oldest) rivalry (TGP thinks anyway).

The fact it does have NCAA playoff implications vs. Shoe implications, definitely earns it GOW status.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 11, 2006, 01:05:33 PM
Correction:  today is the 100th meeting btw Bart and UofR.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2006, 04:18:56 AM
Sweet.

The surprises and disappointments ATN is up. Let the waffling begin. I will begin backing off all of my playoffs picks now, unless of course I am right. Then I will remind you how smart I am.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 16, 2006, 04:45:31 AM
I always like looking back at the old ones -- that's why I linked them in the front-page blurb this time around.

Scanning through, I know I have been far from perfect on predictions, but I picked out a couple:

2001
East surprise: And someone scores a touchdown in the Western Connecticut/Westfield State game. (final, 8-7 Western Conn.)
West surprise: Is it a surprise in the west when a higher seed wins? This is the year the WIAC gets back on the winning track, for one week at least. (UWSP beats Bethel 37-27)

2002
East surprise: My real surprise is that the NCAA only selected five teams from this region and pumped up the competitiveness of this bracket. But even more surprising will be when John Carroll wins this bracket. No, seriously.

2003
West surprise: Do we consider Simpson or St. Norbert the surprise if they win the first round game? St. Norbert's the higher-ranked team, while Simpson is believed to have the better pedigree. Neither has won a playoff game since expansion. I pick St. Norbert to win.
North surprise: The higher seed wins every single game. (they did, or I wouldn't have posted this here. :) )

2004
East disappointment: The most disappointing thing will be the champion's result in the national semifinals, after flying at least halfway, if not all the way across the country.
North surprise: Carthage. Tough break to get sent on the road in the first round but they could easily win two games.

2005
South disappointment: This cash-strapped bracket actually doesn't bother me too much. I'm not convinced Trinity is the best team in this bracket or is worth protecting from UMHB. It's just unfortunate this game is at Trinity ... again.

And then one of my favorite Keith moments, from 2003.
Keith: My disappointment is Mark. How can you not know anything about Allegheny when the very column you're reading, Around the Nation, featured them a few weeks back? I see how it is.

This is a fun column to participate in. I've definitely enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2006, 04:59:40 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 16, 2006, 04:45:31 AM
And then one of my favorite Keith moments, from 2003.
Keith: My disappointment is Mark. How can you not know anything about Allegheny when the very column you're reading, Around the Nation, featured them a few weeks back? I see how it is.

This is a fun column to participate in. I've definitely enjoyed it.

Ha, I almost never look back at these, even though I don't mind them being linked ... I remember doing that ATN with Matlak and Allegheny, but I forgot I took that shot at Mark. :)

Serves him right for showing up in ATN having not read ATN.

I know I've been dreadful with the Stagg Bowl picks on game day, but with these columns, my glass-is-half-full-ness occasionally allows me to hit gold. Picking Whitewater last year, even though I flip-flopped with them and Linfield and was called out for it, was enough to validate me ;)

I definitely tried to do mine before I read the other guys' ... and I still end up looking like the guy who is trying to be different for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: formerd3db on November 16, 2006, 02:21:42 PM
Alright, Keith.  We all know that Hope's chances of beating Mount Union are extremely slim.  However, in your "Around the Nation" column, you mention that despite Millsaps 3 losses, then winning seven in a row, that they deserve their spot.  Well then, does that not (i.e. should that not) apply to Hope also since they won "ran the table" and won seven in a row after an 0-3 start?  I think it does (and none of this SOS milarky please ;D).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2006, 09:54:37 PM
Technically, yes.

I like that Hope plays good teams from the Midwest (Central, DePauw and Wheaton) before its conference slate, and I think that helps them do well in the MIAA.

However, what you're referring to is an opinion where I said which teams I would replace in the playoff field if we were taking the 32 best. I just had a gut feeling about Millsaps that I've never had about Hope, it's not something that's defensible really. I guess you can point to the Central and Wheaton games and say Hope can play with playoff teams, even if it isn't pretty against Mount Union.

But you never know.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 17, 2006, 05:29:34 AM
At least Millsaps had to beat a perennial playoff team to get into the field. There's nothing in the MIAA that matches playing Trinity ... and that's even with Trinity not having won a playoff game since 2002.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Dr. xGSC on November 17, 2006, 04:26:11 PM
Anyone from D3 headed to the RU/Hobart game tomorrow? If so, come to the south end zone (just outside the fence) for some tailgating, cigars, kielbasa, homemade wine, etc.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Josh Bowerman on November 17, 2006, 06:22:48 PM
Keith--

Nice column this week.

I wanted to throw out a "conspiracy theory" based on your column,  for your consideration, since no one (I've read in here) has done so:

Given you've listed the three teams competing for the final Pool C spot this year as St. John's, Cortland St. and Franklin (which I happen to agree with, BTW)--and based solely on my opinion of the AAs penny-pinching ways--do you think that geography had anything to do with the selection of St. John's over Cortland St.? 

I mean, all three were fairly equal in criteria, but St. John's fit the travel "vacancy" much more nicely than either of the other two would have, don't you think?.....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2006, 07:58:44 PM
Quote from: Josh Bowerman on November 17, 2006, 06:22:48 PM
Keith--

Nice column this week.

I wanted to throw out a "conspiracy theory" based on your column,  for your consideration, since no one (I've read in here) has done so:

Given you've listed the three teams competing for the final Pool C spot this year as St. John's, Cortland St. and Franklin (which I happen to agree with, BTW)--and based solely on my opinion of the AAs penny-pinching ways--do you think that geography had anything to do with the selection of St. John's over Cortland St.? 

I mean, all three were fairly equal in criteria, but St. John's fit the travel "vacancy" much more nicely than either of the other two would have, don't you think?.....
Goodness, Josh!  You certainly know how to stir the pot.

And the Daily Dose, I posted this scenario.

QuoteRalph Turner Says:

The 13th of November, 2006 at 8:06 pm

Cortland fans, I have one other thought about the dynamics in the Selection committee as they went down the list

Up first–

1) North-Capital/Wheaton/Franklin West UW-LC/SJU/Linfield South HSU/Trinity East SJF/Hobart/Cortland — Capital in as N#2; move up Wheaton
2) North-Wheaton/Franklin West UW-LC/SJU/Linfield South HSU/Trinity East SJF/Hobart/Cortland — HSU in as S#3 (They beat UW-SP as badly or worse than UW-W and UW-LC did.) Move up Trinity
3) North-Wheaton/Franklin West UW-LC/SJU/Linfeld South Trinity East SJF/Hobart/Cortland — UW-LC in as W#3. Move up SJU
4) North-Wheaton/Franklin West SJU/Linfield South Trinity East SJF/Hobart/Cortland — SJF in as E#3. Move up Hobart
5) North-Wheaton/Franklin West SJU/Linfield South Trinity East Hobart/Cortland — Wheaton in as N#4. Move up Franklin.
6) North-Franklin West SJU/Linfield South Trinity East Hobart/Cortland — Hobart in as E#5. Move up Cortland.
7) North-Franklin West SJU/Linfield South Trinity East Cortland — SJU in as W#7.

If you look at that table, SJU was the next best pick from the West in Round #4, #5, #6 and #7. That is a long time to be asking the question "Is SJU the next best team on the table?"

As that question was being asked, SJF came off! Then Wheaton came off! And then Hobart came off! That certainly must have raised some genuine questions as to which was the next best team left on the table for the 7th pick. I can imagine the committee's dynamics to see 2 East Region teams and 1 North Region team coming off while SJU was still on the table. Trinity, or whoever it was, was just too weak in the next South position.

Cortland, good luck in the ECAC.

Or better yet, what if UW-Lacrosse is the 2nd Pool C bid selected, and SJU is there as next from the West while the committee selects HSU (South), SJF (East), Wheaton (North) and Hobart (and East again)?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2006, 10:00:14 PM
Yeah,
I don't know ... Ralph's thoughts make sense. It's a question worth asking Josh, but I really have no extra insight on how the committee actually works than all that we discussed last week.

Even if they were down to the final three and went on straight gut feeling ... St. John's and Cortland's results this past week (and MSJ's) made them look right, even though there's no telling what would have happened had things shaken down otherwise.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 22, 2006, 04:57:48 PM
  K-Mack

If CMU lets Wesley throw underneath it could be along day for the Tartans D. With Clarks speed and Lanouette and Shatz hands  and the bubble screens Warwick could have a big day.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2006, 03:57:01 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 22, 2006, 04:57:48 PM
  K-Mack

If CMU lets Wesley throw underneath it could be along day for the Tartans D. With Clarks speed and Lanouette and Shatz hands  and the bubble screens Warwick could have a big day.

Millsaps had some success moving the ball like that, but they couldn't finish drives. They had small and shifty guys like Wesley tends to at WR. The big thing was they came up and made tackles, so the 5-yard outs were 5-yard outs and never became big plays. As we all know, big plays can kill you ... and at least last week, CMU didn't allow but one.

As my old coach Riccio used to say "They have to complete 20 5-yard passes to beat you that way." He always liked our chances for a turnover or an offensive mistake somewhere if we just bottled up the short plays and made the offense snap it again.

The bigger key may be Bryan Robinson and those guys against the Wing-T O-line, which is small but will be pulling all over the place. In my experiences against Gettysburg, we gave up some big plays the first year against the Wing-T, but once we saw it and schemed it, we won 27-0 and 44-13. In other words, we didn't have a lot of trouble with it once we figured it out ... and if Wesley does the same (having played them twice with some of the seniors on the current roster), CMU doesn't have the raw talent to overwhelm.

But they will have to play mistake-free, because CMU looks like they will. FWIW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2006, 04:01:55 AM
The e-mail inbox has mostly been personal stuff not that interesting to everyone or kudos and pats on the back that aren't necessary for me to share ad-nauseam to make myself look good.

The e-mails I like to share are when someone has a problem with the column, and my response to it. Maybe if it's that big a problem, airing it out will help. On the flipside, if my response covers the bases, maybe other people with this same questions will have their answers.

Quote-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Brian xxxx" <xxxxx@franklin.edu>

> I like you.  You write well.  You seem like a nice fellow, and I know that most
> writers do so voluntarily.
>
> However, your "Around the Nation" is never just that.  You just give a glimpse
> at ONE team.  EVERY week.  This is getting annoying, and I have decided to stop
> reading your articles.  I do not mean to badger you, although I am, and I am
> sure you get many complaints every wekk...but c'mon.  The Around the Nation name implies an overlook at all the teams in contention or doing well.  Stop being
> biased toward certain reagions/conferences/teams.  Write about ALL the teams. 
> It is the playoffs!!!!  Write about EVERYONE chances!  I am biased to
> super-house Capital who took a nothing program to a nation elite with excellent
> recruiting and creative play calling.  Forget Capital, though, write about ALL
> teams...please!  Otherwise rename your article, "My thoughts on my favorite
> teams."
>
> -Brian

Brian,
  I'm sorry that you feel that way. I definitely disagree with your opinion on Around the Nation and wonder if you're really looking at it very closely. Just last week we did exactly what you asked, we looked at all the teams' playoff chances with a pretty comprehensive look at the bracket and region-by-region breakdown of possible surprises and disappointments.

With the exception of this week's article, half of which went up early because of the short Thanksgiving week (i.e. people not being in front of their computers much from Wednesday afternoon/Thursday on through Saturday), I always touch on dozens of teams.

There's always a lead item, i.e. the top part of the article. But then there's always items about other teams, whether it be about the polls, the playoffs, streaks or whatever. I would not be surprised if over the course of the year, nearly every Division III team was mentioned at least once in the column.

  The "Around the Nation" name implies a few things, but not necessarily every-week coverage of all 234 D3 football teams. I think you know that would be a tedious read and quite improbable to put together. Around the Nation aims to tackle something that's making news somewhere you're not, i.e. if you follow Capital, you might never have a chance to see Mary Hardin-Baylor play, but there may be an interesting story coming out of Texas. ATN also aims to take readers literally Around the Nation, as I am afforded the opportunity to travel to places that many people will never be able to see, either because they are attached to one team each Saturday or because they don't have the means or desire to do all that travelling.

The most important thing ATN does is try to take a look at things from a national viewpoint. Sometimes it's trends, sometimes it's issues in D3, sometimes it's just going somewhere off the beaten path. But before D3football.com, when I played, there was never anything like that -- we never knew much about the teams that weren't on our schedule or in our region -- and we at D3football.com always try to keep in mind how hard it was to get information about D3 teams before we were around.

I will try to take your criticisms into account, and I appreciate you at least trying to be respectful in your e-mail to me. I actually don't get a lot of complaints, and I'm pretty confident we already do what you're asking us to do. If you're looking specifically at the column that went up today, give me until Thursday evening to make some updates to it. I'll be writing about Mike DuBose's thoughts on D3 vs. D1, the Gagliardi Trophy field and the other playoff games this week. In the meantime, look beyond this week's Around the Nation and see what you find.
--
Keith McMillan
D3football.com National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 23, 2006, 10:49:35 AM
K-Mack
With Wesley facing all that miss direction play calling last week, it should help the  coaches get the players to understand how to prepare this week for the Winged-T. Once they started to slow down and stay in there lanes they shut Dickinson down. With Dickinson it was the ability of their O line scheme blocking I think that worked early.  But I know how hard the Winged -T can be to defense especially if you have a QB who can handle the ball. I believe CMU taking time off the clock my keep it close.
   Coach Drass likes to put the D on the field first but I wouldn't be suprised to see Wesley take the ball and get the O going early if they get the choice.
As for Robinson, for a down lineman he can flat out chase people down. The things he can do you usually see in a linebacker.
  One last key to this game may be special teams. The last three or four games Wesley has had opposing punters completely freaked. Maybe CMU shouldn't let their punter watch the films. A big mistakes that some of them make seems to be that they think if they kick it quick they will get the roll. But on this new turf that doesn't happen. The turf seems to grab it and slow it down instead of those funky nose bounces. 
  Enjoy you turkey.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 23, 2006, 12:32:06 PM
I don't remember where we brought this up before.... Oldtimers  getting to me  lol

But the Easton Pa. vs. Phillipsburg N.J. high school football Thanksgivng day game is being played for the third time in four years with Easton or Phillipsburg playing again this Sat. in their respective State playoffs games...

Now that's rivalry and tradition. Standind O for those young men....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2006, 01:02:49 PM
Wow ... Brian couldn't be more off base. Yikes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bill McCabe on November 23, 2006, 01:44:11 PM
Pat, Happy Thanksgiving to you and thanks for D3 football.  You have given us an outlet for our passion for d3 football.  Three years ago, I didn't even know the site existed and now I can't wait to log on each day.  I appreciate all you and the writers do for D3 Football. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 24, 2006, 12:20:09 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 23, 2006, 12:32:06 PM
I don't remember where we brought this up before.... Oldtimers  getting to me  lol

But the Easton Pa. vs. Phillipsburg N.J. high school football Thanksgivng day game is being played for the third time in four years with Easton or Phillipsburg playing again this Sat. in their respective State playoffs games...

Now that's rivalry and tradition. Standing O for those young men....

It was on the "Way Too Early Guesses for Playoff Regions (http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=4865.300)" thread. I just posted there on Wednesday night, since the Easton-Pburg rivalry was on the front (1A, not the sports front) of the Weds/Thurs USA Today. Also available online (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2006-11-21-1a-cover-centenary-game_x.htm).

FWIW, Easton won 21-7 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2006-11-23-centenary-game_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA). Boo Pa. ... go N.J.!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 24, 2006, 12:21:12 AM
Oh, and Around the Nation has been updated with the thoughts from Mike DuBose on Division III and reaction to the Gagliardi Trophy finalists.

Bill, thanks for the kind words.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 24, 2006, 12:28:27 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 23, 2006, 10:49:35 AM
K-Mack
With Wesley facing all that miss direction play calling last week, it should help the  coaches get the players to understand how to prepare this week for the Winged-T. Once they started to slow down and stay in there lanes they shut Dickinson down. With Dickinson it was the ability of their O line scheme blocking I think that worked early.  But I know how hard the Winged -T can be to defense especially if you have a QB who can handle the ball. I believe CMU taking time off the clock my keep it close.
   Coach Drass likes to put the D on the field first but I wouldn't be suprised to see Wesley take the ball and get the O going early if they get the choice.
As for Robinson, for a down lineman he can flat out chase people down. The things he can do you usually see in a linebacker.
  One last key to this game may be special teams. The last three or four games Wesley has had opposing punters completely freaked. Maybe CMU shouldn't let their punter watch the films. A big mistakes that some of them make seems to be that they think if they kick it quick they will get the roll. But on this new turf that doesn't happen. The turf seems to grab it and slow it down instead of those funky nose bounces. 
  Enjoy you turkey.

The biggest question ...

is it right for a team running the Delaware Wing-T (I'm assuming that's the CMU version) to beat a team from Delaware?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2006, 11:29:50 PM
All's well that ends well.

Quote-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Brian Ward" <wardb@franklin.edu>

> Hi Keith,
>
> Just wanted to thank you for writing me back, and explaining things to me. I
> apologize, because I did badger on you quite a bit. And like I mentioned
> before, I know most of you do so voluntarily. You also make good points, and I
> am sure both of us are biased toward certain teams-areas...whatever. We do the
> best we can. I want to thank you for your explination. I want to apologize if
> I came across too hard on you. Again, look at me, absolutely biased to Capital.
> I pitch a fit when I don't hear about them. Keep writing, Keith. LIke my first
> line implied, you are an excellent writer. My apologies for getting my point
> across in an angry manner. I enjoy what your webpage does, because no one else
> will. So I should not be so hard on all of you. Take care, enjoy your holiday,
> and accept my apologies. I am as biased as they come...but at heart, I try to
> be respectful. I may have missed that, so I am sorry.
>
> -Brian

Brian,
You're fine, I get e-mail from passionate fans all the time, most of it a lot worse than yours. Not a big deal, I just wanted to make sure that we were looking at the same facts before we went any further with the discussion.

--
Keith McMillan
D3football.com National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on November 28, 2006, 10:02:23 AM
Pat and/or Keith,

regarding the Tight End post on the Daily Dose, I see that "kid" has done a nice job looking through all the stats - but he did miss one that would rank on one of his lists.  Derek Wisnieski of Carnegie Mellon finished the year with 13 catches for 259 yards and 3 TDs (playing in 9 games - missed 3 with a broken foot).  These statistics would rank him just above the third guy listed in the South Region.  He also is an outstanding run-blocker and a key to our run-heavy offense.  I realize that these are just statistical measures, but I didn't want him to be overlooked just because someone didn't notice his stats would rank him.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2006, 08:08:51 PM
Gotcha. Although you probably should post that on that TE discussion if you haven't already.

Hey SeanGOP,
I just got logged out of the Dose and can't get back in, because I never log out and my password isn't what I think it is. It's been so long since I've had to log in ...

Anyway, I just got around to getting those missing all-time CCIW numbers for you:

1987 Augie 1-1 (53-0 vs. Hiram, 38-36 L to Dayton)
1988 Augie 2-1 (25-7 vs. Adrian, 28-14 vs. Wittenberg, L 23-17 in OT to Central)
1989 Milikin 1-1, Augie 0-1 (Mil beat Aug 21-12 in 1st round, Dayton won 28-16 vs. the Big Blue the next week)
1990 Augie 0-1 (L 24-14 to Dayton in 1st round)
1991 none
1992 IWU 1-1 (21-12 vs. Aurora, L 49-27 to Mount Union)

So anyway, that's what you had asked me for to fill in the blanks.

Let me know what you come up with for the CCIW's all-time playoff record.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 30, 2006, 12:52:26 PM
Around the Nation has been updated with the UMHB-Wesley preview.

Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 30, 2006, 07:45:24 PM
Some of the tidbits promised have ended up in/on the Looking ahead to Week 14: Quarterfinal Week (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/?p=280) Daily Dose post.

Ennnn-joy!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2006, 10:28:58 PM
For those who don't take time to read through the blog:

As fans and alumni, from ex-players to jock-sniffers, it's easy to get excited about your team, and sometimes excited isn't too far from short-sighted. I'm a journalist, trained to check emotions (but not opinions) at the door. It does extend over to real life; I am so rational about some of my teams it ruins the fun. But I identify with the fans, no matter what point on the scale of fanatical, because I can be the same way about the Philadelphia Eagles.

That said, for some people, watching their team win is enough. For others, it's all about saying "I told you so." Which is fine. When you accept the responsbility of making picks, you accept the fact that you're going to be wrong a lot. That's the nature of the game, especially with regard to playoff picks. We can look at all the numbers we want, but on the field is the only thing that's proven, that's absolute. So in a way, we know nothing until the games are played.

Our picks, after going 7-1 last week, almost took a serious bath this week, as UWW and Mount Union each won 17-14. Certainly games that could've been lost. As was pointed out to me in the press box at Wesley, I don't think we've ever missed all the games before.

But the picks are not about Pat or myself. They're to give you an idea of what's expected to occur, and to generate conversation. That was definitely the case this week, which is a good thing.

It's almost flattering how much people want our respect. No matter how many times you say Wesley or St. John Fisher could win, you respect them, you could see it going their way ... all people care about is did you pick us or not.

I didn't.

If you want to rub it in, knock yourselves out. I'm distraught over it, really I am, but I can take it.  ;D

From the Looking ahead to Week 14 thread on the Daily Dose (even though it was all hindsight by this point):

QuoteArcher Says:
The 2nd of December, 2006 at 6:52 pm
D3Keith and Pat:
So nice to see you both wrong again. Last year Wesley beat UMHB by 10 and this year by 14. Maybe someday you will pick Wesley! I looked thru the blog and everyone seemed to pick UMHB over Wesley. I wonder why? Check the stats.! I think we did about 400 to their 250. A very long trip back to Texas! Let's hope UWW is not be allowed to frezze the field again! I think you both picked Rowan over SJF-HA!

QuoteArcher Says:
The 2nd of December, 2006 at 7:08 pm
D3Keith:
Your "gut feeling" that UMHB would win must have been an empty feeling at the end of the 34-20 win of Wesley over UMHB. Maybe one of these days you might pick Wesley over UMHB, but I doubt it!

Quoterachacha Says:
The 2nd of December, 2006 at 7:38 pm
I am not a person who likes to be a bad sport, but Ii would only like to say one thing: I told you so.

Red-Zone Scores-Chances....... Rowan: 0-1 Fisher 4-4
FIRST DOWNS................... Rowan 9 Fisher 18

dominated offense and defense.

QuoteD3Keith Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
The 2nd of December, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Archer,
I make the picks to give the people an expectation of what might happen; I don't get any particular gratification from how often I'm right or wrong. Talk all the smack you want if it makes you feel better.

You make picks, you're gonna be wrong some of the time. If there weren't some games that could go either way at this point in the playoffs, something is way wrong.

Now I was way wrong today ... on St. John Fisher. But I don't think anyone saw 31-0 coming. We all knew Rowan didn't really have the offense, but you begin to buy into teams that just find ways to win. Looks like the Cardinals didn't allow it to remain close and let the Profs bust out any late-game magic and/or gifts. Couldn't help but think Linfield '04 when I saw that final. Tough way to end, but maybe an indication they were playing above their heads the whole time.

Wesley earned their respect today. Nothing fluky about it. UMHB made it a game in the second half, and that's what worried me about them, if they ever get that running game rolling, sometimes they win going away. I think it was Warrick who said in the postgame that this year was a more fulfilling offensive performance, because if you take away those big passes from last year, there wasn't much offense. Today Wesley dictated the tempo by not being foolish and thinking they could run against UMHB. So Chip Knapp and Warrick took what they knew they could do, and made it work to their advantage.

More on that perhaps, in ATN.

So I got to meet a bunch of board regulars at the tailgate today. Archer, I take it that wasn't you who yelled to me "Hey Keith, don't pick us again next week" from the Wesley end. You did make a comment about halftime in the box, so I may have even met you, but you didn't identify yourself.

In any case, I told the guy who yelled at me (good-naturedly, I thought) in the tailgate area (I was cutting across en route to Wesley's postgame presser) that it's a good thing this isn't I-A, because we'd have had 1 vs. 2 set up a long time ago, and Wesley and SJF wouldn't even have their shots. And clearly after their performances today, they deserve a chance at getting to the championship.

The one thing that should be a hot topic for Wesley this week is how representative that 58-6 was last year at UW-W ... that was a shocker to me, I'm sure, if you go back and look at my picks this time last year.

I think the talk will be very similar to this week from St. John's, that that 34-7 score last year wasn't representative of how the two teams matchup. That proved true in a 17-14 game today.

I think that line of thinking will work for Wesley fans this week. It's not going to be easy to go into Perkins and win on grass, but another 58-6 has to be very unlikely.

QuoteD3Keith Says:
The 2nd of December, 2006 at 10:35 pm
A little disturbing, if not flattering, that a couple of you seem to be enjoying Pat and I being wrong more than you're enjoying your team winning today.

The day what I say is more interesting than what happens on the field is my last day doing this.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2006, 10:49:12 PM
Sorry, another post of me blabbing (but I think it's got some worthy insight in it) that may have gotten lost because I posted it on a thread designed for last week.

QuoteSuperman57,
"You're only as good as your last performance" holds up just as well in football as it must have in band. Good stuff.

That will sound sweet this week, for SJF and Wesley, I'm sure. And throwing out last year is realy the only thing Wesley can do. I give a lot of credit to Drass, when I asked him that question, he said they threw out last year this week too (i.e. not to get too overconfident about UMHB, not to read too much into the UWW loss).

Another few thoughts on Wesley ... I love Drass, and I love their guys. Articulate on their thoughts about the game, guys mentioning God in the postgame. Just good stuff all around.   I'm personally drawn to players from the Delaware Valley, and I like to see teams with some kind of mix, whether its racial, as in Wesley's case, or just from different areas/backgrounds ... in a way, that's what college is all about, realizing that even people who look and talk like you had different home lives growing up and different outlooks on the world, and anytime you see all that blend together with a grand accomplishment in mind, and see it achieved, is a really cool thing to see.

I know it's hard to believe, but the D3football.com staff tends to feel a little bit for all the teams. Rarely do we get anything but good reactions on the road, from fans and school officials, and it is nice to be appreciated, but it's nicer to know you put all that time into a service that is being well-utilized.

Where I'm going with that, though, is that I really enjoy seeing the teams who won achieve, and I feel a little bit for the guys whose seasons ended today.

Kinda stinks to be a Capital senior ... two 3-point quarterfinal losses to MUC. I mean, the flipside is not having been there at all and test yourselves, but it must also be no fun to know you were good enough to win twice, and you played well but not well enough.

St. John's too, you can hold your heads high knowing you went into Whitewater just like La Crosse did last week and gave yourselves a chance.

But losing those 17-14 games, as opposed to 31-0, means -- at least it did for me as a player -- that you go back over the game in your mind and agonize over the plays that you missed, even if you made a bunch of big ones.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 02, 2006, 11:20:07 PM
Keith

The first thing I do now before thinking about some of the fly by posters is look to see how many posts they actually have made!!!!  There is also something to be said about a sore winner being worse than a sore loser...  So Keith   fugetaboutit!!!

  I haven't looked at the pics from todays game but I hope they got one of both teams in the middle of the field after the hand shakes!!! Now that's sportmanship!

  Keeps up the good work!!! Cummings already posted on the ACFC board about that 5 letter word that we would rather forget (SHOES)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 04, 2006, 12:55:17 AM
Drass, and he may have just been being his classy self, said in the post-game to forget about the shoes. His team is accountable for all of that 58-6 loss last year.

The good news is they get a fresh chance this year.

Yeah, Wesley and UMHB praying at midfield together after the game was a nice sight to see.

But you almost always see the players and teams showing each other respect in D3. It's the rest of us that get out of hand sometimes.

And as far as fugeddaboutit ... I really do just like to, let's say "discuss." Maybe it's from having a brother and two sisters and us always being into some sort of disagreement.

But I believe a lot of good comes out of these so-called arguments.

How much I post in response, no matter if it's nice guys or imbeciles, really isn't indicative of it bothering me or not. I like it all. I just like to talk D3 football with anyone who'll listen, I guess.  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 04, 2006, 12:56:45 AM
Now this one, folks, is just for me. You can read it if you want to, but I find myself saying this same thing so often, I figured I'd post it here so next time I need it I can find it and repurpose it instead of retyping it from scratch.

Thanks so much for your patience and patronage :)

Quote
QuoteFisher57
D3 Keith... Isn't #1 your job...expert? For being experts, you guys are much to defensive.... take some critisism and move on. It's fun to see you guys carry on the way you do at times...

:roll:

My number one job is to share my knowledge about Division III football with people who want to be informed. When you come on here adding next to nothing to the discussion, my job is to add something to it.

It's no news flash that Pat and I like to mix it up on the boards. The thing is, the vast majority of people on here have earned our respect, through their attitude and their devotion to D3 football, as well as the insights they have on it. We learn something from the people who post on the boards probably every day.

The posters that draw our ire are inevitably the ones who come here spouting misinformation, an obnoxious attitude or both. You will never see Pat or myself get obnoxious with someone who hasn't been obnoxious first.

Once you cross that line, it has long been our view that you get the amount of respect you give. You can dish it out, big man, why can't you take it back?

I don't mind the criticism one bit, I just don't understand why being criticized automatically binds me to being silent. Don't agree with that and never have. Would seem to me that's the time you'd want to speak up.

The best discussions are often born out of conflict.

I'm glad it's "fun" for you. Wouldn't want you to take it any other way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 05, 2006, 09:51:59 PM
Keith

What was that site address again for the streaming of the UW-W/ Wesley  game Sat?  Man have you seen what TX20K in the ASC was up too? Wow !!!
I noticed he had about 10 posts buit i had to respond and so did Pat and a few others.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2006, 07:43:30 PM
PennAtlantic.com, I think was the site.

I'll go look at the ASC now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2006, 07:44:30 PM
Hi, uhm, let's perhaps direct people to the video cast that we'll be involved in with the NCAA.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2006, 08:04:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2006, 07:44:30 PM
Hi, uhm, let's perhaps direct people to the video cast that we'll be involved in with the NCAA.

Be my guest. But since that would be news to me, you'll have to help me out here.

Same goes for you, PA ... what am I missing about the ASC board? Looked over the last few pages, didn't see anything outrageous.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2006, 08:21:25 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 06, 2006, 08:04:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2006, 07:44:30 PM
Hi, uhm, let's perhaps direct people to the video cast that we'll be involved in with the NCAA.

Be my guest. But since that would be news to me, you'll have to help me out here.

Same goes for you, PA ... what am I missing about the ASC board? Looked over the last few pages, didn't see anything outrageous.

I was pretty sure I told you we'd be doing video this week ... but yeah. We'll have details from the producers tomorrow.

I took the guy's most questionable post off but he did continue to talk. Have to go back a few days.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 06, 2006, 09:20:26 PM

Pat

As my wife would say "Who pee'd in his cheerios"? I have seen some hate on here  before but he really went to far . Thanks

Will you be able to re show the game Pat or sell copies?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2006, 09:24:06 PM
We won't own it so I doubt it. I am not sure I'll even have a copy for personal archival use.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 06, 2006, 09:27:01 PM
thats what i thought... NCAA ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 07, 2006, 08:19:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2006, 08:21:25 PMI was pretty sure I told you we'd be doing video this week ... but yeah. We'll have details from the producers tomorrow.

Either you didn't tell me or I was lying when I said it would be news to me.

You make the call!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 07, 2006, 08:39:26 PM
That doesn't rule out me telling you and you forgetting -- then it would still be news to you.  :)

But anyway -- for those wondering, Keith does have a new column up, I just haven't had the chance to build a blurb for the front page.

http://www.d3football.com/atn.php?id=110
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2006, 01:46:44 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 07, 2006, 08:39:26 PM
That doesn't rule out me telling you and you forgetting -- then it would still be news to you.  :)

Give it up.

I found out when I read it on this board.

Any surprises for me this week? Am I the sideline reporter?  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on December 12, 2006, 01:54:34 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2006, 01:46:44 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 07, 2006, 08:39:26 PM
That doesn't rule out me telling you and you forgetting -- then it would still be news to you.  :)

Give it up.

I found out when I read it on this board.

Any surprises for me this week? Am I the sideline reporter?  ;D

Haven't you heard? You two been asked to replace Pam Ward and her partner on ESPN!  They can go do the San Diego Poinsetta Cherry doesn't give a crap bowl.  (I wish!)  Safe Travels!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 12, 2006, 02:02:48 AM
Keith:

You're doing play by play on NCAAdeportes. ¡Buena suerte!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2006, 02:16:01 AM
Quote from: pg04 on December 12, 2006, 01:54:34 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2006, 01:46:44 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 07, 2006, 08:39:26 PM
That doesn't rule out me telling you and you forgetting -- then it would still be news to you.  :)

Give it up.

I found out when I read it on this board.

Any surprises for me this week? Am I the sideline reporter?  ;D

Haven't you heard? You two been asked to replace Pam Ward and her partner on ESPN!  They can go do the San Diego Poinsetta Cherry doesn't give a crap bowl.  (I wish!)  Safe Travels!

Sadly, our game is their warm-up for that.

For me, nothing will ever beat Chris Spielman calling it the O-A-D-C in the 2001 open.

First off, we say Oh-Dack. Second, that would be O-D-A-C. :)

Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 12, 2006, 02:02:48 AM
Keith:

You're doing play by play on NCAAdeportes. ¡Buena suerte!

You sure you want me on that broadcast?

Orale Holmes, y la recepción a la ciudad del campeonato, Salem, Virginia, en donde D3football.com le está trayendo un that'll de la difusión le hacen ESPN mudo. Junto a Pat Cummings y Pat Coleman, soy Keith McMillan, jugador anterior muy bueno del fútbol americano, que es el mirar asombroso hermoso y bueno, desemejante de estos individuos gordos en la cabina con él.

I did a lot of that myself, but when I pumped it into Babelfish, it messed up my verb conjugations, I think.

But enjoy!

http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 12, 2006, 02:18:04 AM
Excelente.

But Pat and I won't be on that call. We'll be on NCAAsportov.com, the Russian-language outlet. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2006, 02:34:14 AM
Jeez. It's like you're making this up as you go along.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 12, 2006, 07:46:43 AM
I volunteer my services if anyone is needed on the Pig Latin feed.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 12, 2006, 11:31:00 AM
Sounds like somebody got up on the wrong side of the rock. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 12, 2006, 07:47:22 PM
It's all Greek to me ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on December 12, 2006, 07:50:12 PM
Dios Mios!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 01:23:42 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 12, 2006, 11:31:00 AM
Sounds like somebody got up on the wrong side of the rock. :)

?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 03:10:56 AM
C'mon, man, you have to be down with the Geico caveman commercials. Did they take the TV off your desk? You should've taken mine when I left, it was newer. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 13, 2006, 07:08:32 AM
Idda Otna!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 04:35:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 03:10:56 AM
C'mon, man, you have to be down with the Geico caveman commercials. Did they take the TV off your desk? You should've taken mine when I left, it was newer. :)

I did take your TV, I thought you were there the day I took it. Mine used to randomly shut off and blurt out cell phone interference in an ultra-loud manner. If they ever hire a new guy, I'll be sure to warn him.

You would have had me with "Roast duck with mango salsa ... Oh, no thanks, I don't have much of an appetite." or the song that plays in the airport when cavedude is on the moving walkway. I woulda recognized those lyrics!

The cavemen remind me of Ryan for some reason.

In a good way though! (wonders how that can be good, but whatevs)

When do you get to Salem?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 10:31:54 PM
I'll be rolling in around noon tomorrow. I leave here after work tonight.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 13, 2006, 10:34:32 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2006, 10:31:54 PM
I'll be rolling in around noon tomorrow. I leave here after work tonight.

Looking like Friday for me. If we can get family to watch the kids (I've cashed that one in a bunch recently, though) I can leave early. Otherwise, I might even miss the Corned Beef bash.

I'll be ready for game day either way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2006, 09:06:06 PM
This might read better here than on the blog. Another fan mail that I like to share with the die-hards who actually care to read this board.

QuoteIt does sound like some MUC fans are fabricating a 'no respect' theme ... I guess because they're bored.

Granted, as I mentioned in the column, every year a team comes into the Stagg Bowl on high, and every year just about Mount sends them home.

But these teams have mutual respect for each other, and I think they've both earned it. Nobody with a clue is predicting a blowout, and I haven't heard anyone from either team even hint at a lack of respect ... and it sounds genuine, not like 'well my coach told me don't give them any bulletin board material.'

I have an e-mail in my inbox right now that takes issue with me calling Mount Union 'goliath' (as if that's absurd) and claims that general opinion ...

Well here, just read our exchange yourselves ... (name omitted, in case the fella didn't intend for this to go public)

Quote-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Xxxx Xxxxxx" <xxxxxxxx@co.xxxxx.oh.us>

It's ironic that you characterize Mount Union as the mighty Goliath and the University of Wisconsin Whitewater as the poor little David, representing all of the overachievers in the world as they try to pull off the uimaginable upset.  Last year, virtually everyone, including the official pundits, opined that Whitewater's trip to Virginia was only to make it official by claiming the trophy after overwhelming the hopelessly overmatched Purple Raiders.  This year, altjhough experience seems to have resulted in toned down rhetoric, the general buzz appears to be that Whitewater is just too strong, too fast, too well coached, and too motivated to brook much interference from Mount on their way to inevitable victory.  But that's why they play the game, isn't it.  We can all be thankful that the babbling will soon stop and the fine players of these two excellent college football teams will get their chance to be heard.  May the better team win! 

QuoteXxxx,
I appreciate the e-mail and your patronage of the site. On some of the points you make, though, I respectfully disagree.

I understand that man-for-man, Mount's players are hardly Goliath compared to UW-W. But as a program, it is most definitely Goliath, and every other team that goes up against them represents the hope that they can be beaten and a title can be won. At least that's how I see it. It's a sign of respect, that onlookers almost assume a Purple Raiders title is a given and the road to a championship goes through Alliance, even though I know they're never taken for granted in the MUC locker room.

If you can't see how the program is Goliath, I'm not sure what to tell you. I also don't really see any irony in what I said.

Second, I would advise you to consider your sources. I don't think the general opinion last year or this year is that Whitewater is too big, fast or strong for Mount Union. Most anybody with a clue knows the Purple Raiders are to be respected and don't bow easily, even on the rare occasions when they do lose. People who are taking or who took that "Whitewater is too good" view are and were almost exclusively Whitewater backers.

The general consensus is more like "good game that can go either way" at least from all the people I've talked to who are affiliated with or fans of neither school.

Last year, the official pundits were 4-3 in favor of Mount Union. Only one "pundit" predicted a margin of more than 6 points in either direction, and that was 10. We keep our predictions, you can go back and read them here: http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/?p=167

Either your memory has let you down or time has allowed it to be selective. There was no "virtually everyone" thinking Mount Union was "hopelessly overmatched," at least not among the official predictions, but if that's how you guys have to play it to keep it interesting on the 10th trip to Salem, I completely understand.

We can definitely agree on one thing: The talk is just talk. The game is what matters. See you Saturday.
--
Keith McMillan
D3football.com National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on December 14, 2006, 09:23:39 PM
Enrollment:  WW-8,752   MtU-2,095

Who's Goliath?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2006, 09:49:17 PM
Quote from: cwru70 on December 14, 2006, 09:23:39 PM
Enrollment:  WW-8,752   MtU-2,095

Who's Goliath?

This isn't high school though, so unless we're talking attendance figures, the size of the school doesn't much matter.

I'll bet you what you pay each year to go to Case Western Reserve that Mount Union starts the season with more football players "in the program."

Not to mention I clearly said "as a program, it is most definitely Goliath."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2006, 10:24:43 PM
(paid)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2006, 11:47:07 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2006, 10:24:43 PM
(paid)

I did notice that.

However, I still want to bet this year's Case tuition, as opposed to 1970s.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on December 15, 2006, 08:29:28 AM
(1960s) I get your point, but think the Yankees analogy that has been used fits better than Goliath (even that isn't totally apt since the Yankees are usually considered to have a financial advantage, which does not apply to MtU).  And whatever decade's tuition we use, I wouldn't take the bet.  For one, as I recall, the WIAC has roster limits.  Still it seems to me that it's easier to get your football recruits admitted if there are four times as many admission slots.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 15, 2006, 11:30:06 AM
great article from the Albany Times Union about college football playoffs... thanks to 57Johnnie for posting this on the LL board.

Divisions of Playoff Success (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=544914&category=ETTKIN&BCCode=&newsdate=12/15/2006)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 15, 2006, 04:19:39 PM
Quote from: 'gro on December 15, 2006, 11:30:06 AM
great article from the Albany Times Union about college football playoffs... thanks to 57Johnnie for posting this on the LL board.

Divisions of Playoff Success (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=544914&category=ETTKIN&BCCode=&newsdate=12/15/2006)

Yeah, nice column.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 17, 2006, 09:27:30 PM
For those of you who can't get enough, Google "Mount Union"

I got the first two results with 181 articles and 97 articles. I'm sure a bunch of them were picked up from AP and are just blurbs, but there's a significant amount of coverage out there.

Not that we want you leaving here, of course :)

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-08,GGLD:en&q=Mount%20Union&btnG=Search&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 21, 2006, 08:40:12 PM
Keith

  For your end of year AN..

How about a what if category.
I.E. What if Dickinson scores that third TD against Wesley. How does that change the dynamics of the South Playoffs?

I am sure that there are many fans whohvae what if scenerios for you.

  GO BIRDS  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 21, 2006, 10:20:43 PM
Interesting.

Although with something like that, we usually end up using the play that did happen (as opposed to what didn't0 as a key turning point or something.

You are always welcome to cheer on the Birds on the ATN thread, however.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 26, 2006, 08:15:05 PM
 The Birds!!!!!

  Think those good ole boys from Texas had enough of our teams north of the Mason-Dixon???

   Here is a quote of the day. Who said,  " But I was bumped down feild and the ball hit me right in the hands"????
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on December 26, 2006, 11:46:59 PM
T.O.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 26, 2006, 11:52:24 PM
Good answer!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 01, 2007, 08:32:47 PM
So for the die-hards still paying attention, Pat and I have yet to completely agree on the release date, but it's looking like the annual ATN year-in-review will get posted in three parts, with the first one out sometime this week.

Here's how I have it drawn up at the moment:

Part 1: Great games, plays and statistics
Part 2: Great players, coaches and teams
Part 3: Our awards, In Retrospect (revisiting preseason predictions) and Miscellaneous

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 01, 2007, 08:40:28 PM
Oh, sorry -- the release dates you proposed were just fine. :)

Happy new year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: CBE on January 01, 2007, 09:00:11 PM
Looking forward to the year end review guys!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 01, 2007, 09:31:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 01, 2007, 08:40:28 PM
Oh, sorry -- the release dates you proposed were just fine. :)

Happy new year.

Same to you. May you again live with your wife and children in '07 :)

As far as the dates, I was just wondering if you had a preference for day of the week, i.e. avoiding Fridays or some other day you might be so busy with D3hoops.com you might not have much time to read/edit/format.

Otherwise, I'll aim to get it to you late Weds. or Thurs., like a normal ATN, each of the next three weeks.

Check the e-mail too. For Part 3, there were a couple Miscellaneous categories last year that involved 'best/odd moments from D3 staffers' or something, which I would include you and some of the guys on.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 01, 2007, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 01, 2007, 09:31:59 PM
Same to you. May you again live with your wife and children in '07 :)

Thanks.  :-\

I will re-read when things quiet down a little here at work. My bad.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 02, 2007, 02:00:21 AM
From the midseason review:

If the playoffs started today
Linfield out.
Carnegie Mellon in.
Hope/Olivet in.
Ithaca out.
King's in.
Delaware Valley out.
Dickinson/Ursinus in.
Johns Hopkins out.
Washington & Jefferson in
Thiel out.
Mary Hardin-Baylor in.
Hardin-Simmons on the bubble with Sul Ross State.

WIAC two bids
USAC one bid
HCAC two bids
NCAC one bid
SCIAC two bids
CCIW one bid

Pretty close ... some stuff changed, like Wilkes winning the MAC and Franklin not getting a bid, but surprising how close this was. To me, anyway.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on January 04, 2007, 01:46:21 PM
Certainly deserves props for the call.  You guys are getting good.

Here's an interesting counterpoint to the play-off system.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke3jan03,1,7710236.column?coll=la-utilities-sports

Of course Plaschke is a known nudge and devil's advocate to everything, but TGP thought he'd put it out there for sake of discussion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: allsky7 on January 05, 2007, 07:06:04 AM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on January 04, 2007, 01:46:21 PM
Certainly deserves props for the call.  You guys are getting good.

Here's an interesting counterpoint to the play-off system.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke3jan03,1,7710236.column?coll=la-utilities-sports

Of course Plaschke is a known nudge and devil's advocate to everything, but TGP thought he'd put it out there for sake of discussion.

"If there was a playoff, the Rose Bowl party also doesn't happen. That would have probably been a semifinal game. Instead of dancing around the wet grass like a Pop Warner team, the Trojans would have calmly jogged off to prepare for a bigger game."

     Nonsense!!! There are enough great minds out there that can figure a way to incorporate many of the bowl games into a playoff system. The bowls that don't make the playoff mix can still be held. Except for entertainment value and maybe a little recruiting clout...bowls with teams that are 6 and 6 or 7 and 5 are irrelevant anyway. If I were on a team that won the game the way Boise State did....I would have been "dancing around the wet grass like a Pop Warner team" no matter what.....even if I were on a Pop Warner team. The joy of that type of victory shows no bounds....whether it is a BCS bowl game, high school game, or Pop Warner game. If it were a playoff game, does anyone really believe that USC wouldn't have celebrated that victory...regardless? Then move on to having a shot at a national championship. I will give Mr. Plaschke this. There is a certain aura surrounding the bowls but I think there are ways to incorporate bowls into a playoff system that would still maintain most of that aura. Not to mention what you would gain in the excitement of creating an atmosphere of crowning a true national champion. You know....like the Stagg Bowl. That atmosphere my friends... is tough to beat.
     Have a good weekend all from one indoctrinated d3 disciple!!  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 07, 2007, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: allsky7 on January 05, 2007, 07:06:04 AM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on January 04, 2007, 01:46:21 PM
Certainly deserves props for the call.  You guys are getting good.

Here's an interesting counterpoint to the play-off system.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke3jan03,1,7710236.column?coll=la-utilities-sports

Of course Plaschke is a known nudge and devil's advocate to everything, but TGP thought he'd put it out there for sake of discussion.

"If there was a playoff, the Rose Bowl party also doesn't happen. That would have probably been a semifinal game. Instead of dancing around the wet grass like a Pop Warner team, the Trojans would have calmly jogged off to prepare for a bigger game."

     Nonsense!!! There are enough great minds out there that can figure a way to incorporate many of the bowl games into a playoff system. The bowls that don't make the playoff mix can still be held. Except for entertainment value and maybe a little recruiting clout...bowls with teams that are 6 and 6 or 7 and 5 are irrelevant anyway. If I were on a team that won the game the way Boise State did....I would have been "dancing around the wet grass like a Pop Warner team" no matter what.....even if I were on a Pop Warner team. The joy of that type of victory shows no bounds....whether it is a BCS bowl game, high school game, or Pop Warner game. If it were a playoff game, does anyone really believe that USC wouldn't have celebrated that victory...regardless? Then move on to having a shot at a national championship. I will give Mr. Plaschke this. There is a certain aura surrounding the bowls but I think there are ways to incorporate bowls into a playoff system that would still maintain most of that aura. Not to mention what you would gain in the excitement of creating an atmosphere of crowning a true national champion. You know....like the Stagg Bowl. That atmosphere my friends... is tough to beat.
     Have a good weekend all from one indoctrinated d3 disciple!!  ;D

I agree with you wholeheartedly allsky. You can retain the Bowl stuff and do a playoff, it's not even worth arguing about. It can be done.

The thing is, outside of Gatorville and Buckeye land, most casual Division I-A football fans will remember two games this year, Boise State-Oklahoma and Rutgers-Louisville. Maybe some others, but no matter what's on the line, great games are celebrated by the winning team at the time, and by fans long afterward.

Part 1 is done but not posted yet. This year-end stuff is hard work ... lots of stuff to pore over, and I'm learning all kinds of new stuff just going back and reading :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on January 08, 2007, 01:44:12 PM
Hey Keith,

Enjoyed the first part of the Year in Review.  Read this and I wanted to give my 2 cents:

QuoteRemember the great streaks extended
Beyond the dozens of conference and regular-season streaks are others that are truly eye-catching.

Linfield's streak of consecutive winning seasons was extended to 51. It might not have been as glorious as the 49th year, but it still counts -- that's the beauty of a streak where even a 5-4 season qualifies.

Granted that a 5-4 season isn't anything to write home about but in the 51 years of Linfield's consecutive winning season streak these 5-4 years have only happened 3 times.  1971, 1987, and 1996.

During these 51 years, Linfield has appeared in 6 national title games, won 4 national titles and have captured 31 conference crowns.  That's a pretty phenomenal run.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Keith's column as submitted only contained the word Linfield. I filled it out. You can take me to task for it if you don't like it but it doesn't make it inaccurate.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on January 08, 2007, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Keith's column as submitted only contained the word Linfield. I filled it out. You can take me to task for it if you don't like it but it doesn't make it inaccurate.

Never said I didn't like it...just adding my own thought/info to part of an article that I enjoyed reading. 
Quote from: wildcat11 on January 08, 2007, 01:44:12 PM
Enjoyed the first part of the Year in Review.



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2007, 08:23:23 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Keith's column as submitted only contained the word Linfield. I filled it out. You can take me to task for it if you don't like it but it doesn't make it inaccurate.

That explains the other e-mail I got about this.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 09:09:23 PM
Ehh, yeah -- I tired to write it with a little edge so it would fit in. Tried to help you out, man. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2007, 09:13:29 PM
Impossible to hit it all. This is a good one I missed.

Quote> ---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
> Subject: Feedback:
> Date: Mon, January 8, 2007 6:14 pm
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject:
> Notes: Nice job as usual on your Part I of Around the Nation. I
> wuuld just mention that you might have considered Hope's 49-48 OT win vs.
> Alma (and eventual Gagliari winner Josh Brehm) this year on Oct. 7 as being
> among the top comeback wins for teams this year. Hope down by 34-10 at
> the half and playing lousy, scored on the last play of regulation; then
> on a 4th down play in OT. Brehm had a tremendous day and was decimating
> Hope. However, Hope's players never gave up (one of the best efforts
> I've ever seen in a game or played in including during my collegiate
> career). The win was a key one as without it, Hope would have not had
> the momentum and it is doubtful it would have gone on to "run the table"
> and get the AQ as we did after a horrendous 0-3 start. Just thought I'd
> add that into the mix! Anyway, looking forward to your Part II of
> ATN/The Year in Review next week. Thanks.
>
> Todd (formerd3db)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Todd,
Thanks, that is a good one. I thought I'd read about a thousand games and I still missed one.

Just thought of another too, when you said 34-10 ... I think Ithaca led St. John Fisher 10-0 at the half and gave up 34 unanswered in the second half.

Anyway, just goes to show you how huge Division III is and how difficult it is to reel all the way in. I'll post this on the Post Patterns thread, if nowhere else.
--
Keith McMillan
D3football.com National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2007, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 08, 2007, 08:23:23 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Keith's column as submitted only contained the word Linfield. I filled it out. You can take me to task for it if you don't like it but it doesn't make it inaccurate.

That explains the other e-mail I got about this.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 09:09:23 PM
Ehh, yeah -- I tired to write it with a little edge so it would fit in. Tried to help you out, man. :)

I'm OK with it, just was a little confused why the writer was so focused on 5-4 when Linfield was 6-3 this season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2007, 09:23:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 02:57:30 PM
Keith's column as submitted only contained the word Linfield.

Wait,
You used an earlier version of the column, not the one I said I was re-sending when I talked to you. I sent myself a copy ... it was titled Edited Year-in-Review Part 1 and arrived (or should have) at 1:14.

I don't know when I'll have time, but I guess I'll go through tonight and update it with the fixed version.

That explains why you say it only had the word "Linfield" when I remembered writing a sentence for that.

Here's what I wrote for that particular item:

QuoteLinfield's 6-3 season may have been a down year for Wildcats fans who've grown accustomed to the playoffs, but it extended their streak of winning seasons to 51. Central, meanwhile, last had a losing season in 1960.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 09:51:43 PM
I didn't get a revise. I waited until about 3 a.m. after our conversation earlier in the night and figured you'd gotten too tied up at USA Today to do your final writethru.

Feel free to edit -- your password access should still work out.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2007, 10:58:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 09:51:43 PM
I didn't get a revise. I waited until about 3 a.m. after our conversation earlier in the night and figured you'd gotten too tied up at USA Today to do your final writethru.

Feel free to edit -- your password access should still work out.

Okie doke everyone,
Enjoy the inside access Post Patterns gives you! ... Our well-oiled machine has slowed to a crawl in the offseason, but Pat and I have it figured out.

I'll work on it really late tonight, but a touched-up version should up Tuesday morning. I have to take mine and read it side-by-side with the one Pat edited ... we both made a lot of small grammatical and fact-checking fixes.

The bad news is I should probably be using that time to work on part 2.

But at least we won't have this problem again next week.

It was so much easier, Pat, when we sat next to each other at work.  :)

More from formerd3db:

QuoteKeith:

You are welcome; and thank you as well.  Please know that I was not intending to be critical of you at all.  I can imagine how tedious it is for you and your colleagues to review all those games!  Thanks for considering posting a "blurb" about this as you mentioned.  If you do, a couple of clarifications:  in my zeal to mention this to you, I should have checked the details (i.e. my facts!) before relating the "re-cap" - just goes to show you how "the memory fades for us old-d3'er's" even though I was at the game and on the sidelines.  Specifically,

1)  The final score was 49-43 (not 49-48)
2)  The half-time score was actually 30-10; Hope came back to tie the game with 0.27 (i.e. 27 seconds) left in the last of regulation as I mentioned, but missed the extra-point to cause the OT.
3) Hope actually scored first in the OT, but again, missed the extra point giving them a 49-43 lead.  Alma got down near the red zone, but on the last play of the game i.e. fourth and 2, their pass was tipped, giving Hope the incredible win.

My apologies for the minor errors; but just wanted to make sure I gave you the correct facts.  If you need more detail, you can go to your own D3 North section and pull up Hope's official site; the re-cap of the game and box score/stats are obviously posted on there.  Thanks again, Keith, and also for the great job you do and another great year of writing for all of us.  Take care.

Best,
Todd (formerd3db) 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 11:55:51 PM
Sorry, man -- hope the job works out better for you than it did for me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 09, 2007, 01:49:26 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2007, 11:55:51 PMSorry, man -- hope the job works out better for you than it did for me.

You got 12 (or however many) years out of this place, I think you did OK.

Everything is a stepping stone to your next journey ... or some other kind of coachspeak.

Now back to your regularly scheduled blabber about Around the Nation. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 09, 2007, 11:39:10 PM
OK boys and girls,
Thanks for bearing with us. I sent Pat an old version and sent the new version (accidentally) to myself. Duh.
 
Anyway, the corrected/updated Part 1 is up now, with significant changes to 3 or 4 items and minor edits to about half of the items. If you haven't read it already, you won't know the difference.

If you have, read it again!

Come on. It's better than working.

Look for Part 2 probably next Monday morning.

Thanks for caring ... Keith
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 16, 2007, 05:25:39 PM
Though the front page does not yet reflect, part 2 of the ATN Year in Review (players, coaches & teams) is up under the Around the Nation link on the left side of the home page.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 18, 2007, 11:48:13 PM
Uh-oh, Pat ... looks like copyright infringement to me:

http://msn.foxsports.com/fantasy/story/6375656
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on January 19, 2007, 05:51:33 AM
K-Mack: Good job with the Year in Review.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on January 19, 2007, 12:18:01 PM
As the person who suggested Daily Dose for our site, I want royalties.

Or candy.  I'm not picky.

Great job with Part II by the way, K-Mack.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 19, 2007, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on January 19, 2007, 12:18:01 PM
As the person who suggested Daily Dose for our site, I want royalties.

Or candy.  I'm not picky.

Great job with Part II by the way, K-Mack.
Will you settle for an extra karma point per month?  :D ;) ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 21, 2007, 03:49:23 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on January 19, 2007, 12:18:01 PMGreat job with Part II by the way, K-Mack.

Frank, Gordon, those who e-mailed. Thanks. It would definitely be not worth all the hassle if there weren't still people reading D3football.com in the offseason and enjoying it.

Part III is looking like a mid-week delivery, not Monday, FYI. Should be the most fun part though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on January 22, 2007, 10:04:40 AM
Great job. We're reading!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on January 22, 2007, 11:09:15 PM
For "least bang for the buck," take a look at the Hamilton Continentals' results for 2006. With the return of Coach Steve Stetson, Hamilton showed improvement defensively, but struggled putting points on the scoreboard. The first seven games of the Continentals' 8-game schedule were shutouts, with Hamilton winning two. It wasn't until the finale against Bates that both teams scored and total points scored exceeded 17.

Tufts 17, Hamilton 0
Wesleyan 7, Hamilton 0
Trinity 13, Hamilton 0
Hamilton 12, Bowdoin 0
Hamilton 6, Colby 0
Williams 15, Hamilton 0
Middlebury 10, Hamilton 0
Bates 20, Hamilton 6

Great job on Around the Nation....appreciate the fact there's someone out there that takes good care of the little guys in the land.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on January 22, 2007, 11:24:47 PM
Hamilton put, I conjecture, deliberately the vast majority of its best athletes on defense and consequently received the aforementioned outcomes, probably in the belief that it did not have enough talent for both offense and defense and that if its defense could shut its opponents down offensively and if in certain games the ball bounced favorably for it by way of takeaways and otherwise, it could win a few. As a result it did - in fact one more game than it won the year prior.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on January 22, 2007, 11:57:38 PM
That was the same philosophy of Alfred's legendary Coach Alex Yunevich, who seldom had sufficient numbers of athletes to otherwise compete with some of the Saxon opponents. When he did have enough talent to spread to the offensive side of the ball, he certainly made the most of it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 23, 2007, 12:30:35 AM
I think it's OK to say "Coach Alex Yunevich" without "legendary" in front of it just one time, Pep.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on January 23, 2007, 05:19:40 AM
Pep: Others (most memorably to me Don Coryell) place their best athletes on offense and stock the defense with highly motivated left overs in an attempt to out score the opposition. Still others strive for balance between the quality of their offensive personnel and that of their defensive personnel.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on January 23, 2007, 08:56:54 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 23, 2007, 12:30:35 AM
I think it's OK to say "Coach Alex Yunevich" without "legendary" in front of it just one time, Pep.

Coach Alex Yunevich compiled a 177-85-12 career record at Alfred University in his 36 seasons at the helm of the Saxon gridiron teams from 1937-1976. There's your one time, Pat.   ;)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on January 23, 2007, 12:11:58 PM
Damn good record - in my judgment,  one of College HOF quality.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on January 23, 2007, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: frank uible on January 23, 2007, 12:11:58 PM
Damn good record - in my judgment,  one of College HOF quality.

Yuni has been on the ballot for several years. Pep is hoping one of these days....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 24, 2007, 12:44:23 AM
Loving that the ATN thread is alive and well. This has sort of become the "random tidbits for the diehards" thread, but keep it coming!

That Hamilton thing was a great one. We/I tried to streamline some this year, but last year or the year before we had Plymouth State on there for scoring 7 points the whole year.

I think they were almost .500 this year too, so big strides.

Holding Williams to 15 must've meant they were pretty good defensively.

I'd be honored to be permanently known as the guy who "takes good care of the little guys."  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on January 24, 2007, 01:00:34 AM
The Hamilton-Williams game was played in a continual rainstorm on a field which had become a swamp.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 24, 2007, 01:08:41 AM
Quote from: frank uible on January 24, 2007, 01:00:34 AM
The Hamilton-Williams game was played on a field which had become a swamp.

Ah. Football-watching 101. The score doesn't always tell the whole story.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on January 24, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 24, 2007, 12:44:23 AM
Loving that the ATN thread is alive and well. This has sort of become the "random tidbits for the diehards" thread, but keep it coming!

That Hamilton thing was a great one. We/I tried to streamline some this year, but last year or the year before we had Plymouth State on there for scoring 7 points the whole year.

I think they were almost .500 this year too, so big strides.

Holding Williams to 15 must've meant they were pretty good defensively.

I'd be honored to be permanently known as the guy who "takes good care of the little guys."  :D

This was before AUPepBand's time, but Alfred's football heritage includes a season in which the Saxons were known throughout the nation as the "Scoreless Wonders" in 1927. AU did not score a single point all season. AU had been outscored 315-0 in its first eight games, yet salvaged the season with a 0-0 tie with rival Buffalo. Actually, after a forfeit replaced AU's 21-0 loss to Amherst, the Saxons finished the season at 1-7-1 without having ever scored.

Fifty years ago this week, Coach Alex Yunevich was in Washington, D.C. to receive recognition for Alfred's second consecutive undefeated season for which the Washington Touchdown Club declared Alfred "National Small College Football Champion" for 1956. Ironically, Alex was pictured with Jack LaSalle of Sioux Falls College. LaSalle received a special award as his team lost every game and was beaten 80-0 in the last game.

Just a few Alfred oddities for your enjoyment brought, as usual, to you by AUPepBand.

On Saxon Warriors!

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 25, 2007, 03:58:12 AM
I'm eating up those factoids!

In response to SeanGOP on the dose:

Quote#  SeanGOP Says:
The 24th of January, 2007 at 10:57 am

Hey Keith,

Where is part 3? I'm dying over here.


Sean,
Working on Part III as we speak. They haven't hired Pat's replacement yet, and another guy on our desk has since retired, and deadlines were recently pushed up. All of this has conspired to force me to actually work most of the time I'm at work. There were a lot of lulls during the season, which allowed me to get in the habit of writing Around the Nation at the office.

As it stands, I have to work on it in my own free time like in the old days of D3football.com, and I have definitely not used all of my free time to work on it. That's on me. It's never easy to motivate yourself when you want to come home and plop down on the couch, but as long as there are folks like yourself out there waiting on the next part, I can always get through it.

That was the long answer. Short answer is probably tomorrow sometime. I'm going to try to go until 5 a.m. and see where that gets me. A lot is done, but you know how these things are. There's always one more thing that pops into my head  ... and then there's the prospect of me correctly e-mailing it to Pat for editing. (0-for-2 so far)  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 25, 2007, 05:34:38 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 25, 2007, 03:58:12 AM
They haven't hired Pat's replacement yet, and another guy on our desk has since retired, and deadlines were recently pushed up.

And as a reminder, I left USA Today in mid-August.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on January 25, 2007, 07:20:02 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 25, 2007, 05:34:38 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 25, 2007, 03:58:12 AM
They haven't hired Pat's replacement yet, and another guy on our desk has since retired, and deadlines were recently pushed up.

And as a reminder, I left USA Today in mid-August.

Is that because they can't find anyone as good as you, or they haven't noticed you're gone?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on January 25, 2007, 09:14:34 AM
AUPepBand doesn't know the particulars of circulation numbers for USAToday, but nationwide trend is decline of daily newspaper circulation and, the simultaneous rise in weekly newspaper circulation. Pep attributes this to more folks getting world/national news on the internet, looking to get "local" news from their "local" newspapers. I quote Michelle Rea, executive director of the New York Press Association:

I was interviewed this morning by a writer doing a story for Columbia Journalism Review, and I was asked to dig out some statistics, and I thought some of you might find them interesting:

In April, 2002, 588 weekly community newspapers were published in New York State, including 49 "culturally specific" newspapers.  Total circulation was 7.2M; free distribution was 3.9M and paid circulation was 3.3M

In January, 2007, 740 weekly community newspapers are published in New York, including 123 "culturally specific" newspapers.  Total circulation is 11.1M; free distribution is 7.2M and paid circulation is 3.9M

--Michelle Rea, Executive Director
New York Press Association

Perhaps USAToday's circulation numbers are down.... or maybe Pat is just plain irreplaceable!





Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on January 25, 2007, 05:20:47 PM
Quote from: janesvilleflash on January 25, 2007, 07:20:02 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 25, 2007, 05:34:38 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 25, 2007, 03:58:12 AM
They haven't hired Pat's replacement yet, and another guy on our desk has since retired, and deadlines were recently pushed up.

And as a reminder, I left USA Today in mid-August.

Is that because they can't find anyone as good as you, or they haven't noticed you're gone?


    Pat  who???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 26, 2007, 06:37:22 AM
Or Gannett is just plain cheap.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on January 26, 2007, 02:15:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 26, 2007, 06:37:22 AM
Or Gannett is just plain cheap.

bing bing bing! Ladies and Gentleman, we have a winner!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on January 26, 2007, 11:16:33 PM
  Keith

  Kudos on a great finish to another great DIII football season...
Hope you have time to get your batteries regenerated for next year but with those two young'uns I fear next football season may be just what the Dr. ordered. A Vacation.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on January 26, 2007, 11:23:34 PM
I hate that actually having to work at work garbage.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on January 27, 2007, 08:56:06 AM
Kieth,

Great Job on part 3!!!  Excellent Piece of work!

;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 27, 2007, 03:18:23 PM
 
QuoteSo folks in Texas should be used to it by now, right? Being used to it doesn't mean they have to like it, but UMHB and HSU weren't screwed as badly as fans claim. If the South bracket seeds had been followed, the No. 2 Crusaders (ranked No. 5 nationally heading into the playoffs) and No. 3 Cowboys (No. 6) would have met in the second round, assuming they'd won their first-round games. -- Keith McMillan

Keith, thanks for Part 3, but we have to agree to disagree.

I believe that you failed to acknowledge the key issues of the UMHB-HSU scheduling SNAFU in your Part 3 summary.
 


When the NCAA gives me guidelines that allow me to maximize my playoff opportunities, then I am counting on them to be followed.


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 28, 2007, 12:42:42 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on January 26, 2007, 11:16:33 PM
  Keith,
  Kudos on a great finish to another great DIII football season...
Hope you have time to get your batteries regenerated for next year but with those two young'uns I fear next football season may be just what the Dr. ordered. A Vacation.

Thanks. As you can see it took me until Friday evening to finish up, and even then I leaned on Pat to edit the final 1/4 of it, as I had to scoop up my wife and drop the kids off for a Friday night away from the parents. Then we went to see The Pursuit of Happyness, which makes you want to go home and hug your kids.  :(

I've thought about giving it up the past couple years, since family's been in the mix, but since it's the only thing I'm good at that people seem to appreciate, it's probably going to be tough to let go. I'm sure I'll be back.

Quote from: Knightstalker on January 26, 2007, 11:23:34 PMI hate that actually having to work at work garbage.

Just killing me. Wouldn't life be so much easier without the need for that?

It does make me realize that I wouldn't mind going in every day solely to work on D3 stuff though.

As far as the weekly vs. daily papers, I think the industry model is changing overall, from paid circulation to internet, mobile devices, etc. The people who give you information you want the best, whether local, regional or national, will still be in business if they can figure out how to deliver it to you.

Circulation is pretty much down everywhere, last I heard.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 28, 2007, 12:50:42 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 27, 2007, 03:18:23 PM
QuoteSo folks in Texas should be used to it by now, right? Being used to it doesn't mean they have to like it, but UMHB and HSU weren't screwed as badly as fans claim. If the South bracket seeds had been followed, the No. 2 Crusaders (ranked No. 5 nationally heading into the playoffs) and No. 3 Cowboys (No. 6) would have met in the second round, assuming they'd won their first-round games. -- Keith McMillan

Keith, thanks for Part 3, but we have to agree to disagree.

I believe that you failed to acknowledge the key issues of the UMHB-HSU scheduling SNAFU in your Part 3 summary.

  •   The NCAA did not follow its own guidelines.  I still believe that some staffer in the Indy office did not check the mileage information before sending it to the national selection committee.  A formal and public apology to HSU and the ASC for not adhering to NCAA guidelines will be sufficent.  I do not think it was given.
  •   Players anticipate getting a home playoff game if they are in the Top 4 of the last published Regional Rankings (http://www.ncaasports.com/football/mens/polls/polls/diviii) as South Region #4 HSU was, the week before #2 Trinity lost to Millsaps.
  •   HSU's loss of a home playoff game (as a Pool C bid that was earned by a quality QOWI) diminished the value of scheduling hard in-region opponents.  You can give props to HSU for flying across the country to schedule UW-SP and Linfield in search of quality in-region opponents, but then, not to acknowledge and not to demand the justice due for scheduling such games as outlined in the Handbook is where I have my second disagreement with you.  Do you also give props to UMHB for scheudling 2 playoff teams, CNU and UWW, as in-region non-conference opponents?  Some good that it does in their first round opponent... :-\
  •   The benefits of winning playoff games was borne out on this message board as MUC fans and others detailed the extra experience that MUC players have gotten in playoffs alone, almost the equivalence of an extra half-season per year.  The opportunity for players #31-52 on the 52-player playoff "traveling squad" to reap quality minutes is invaluable to a program.  HSU's (the D3football.com Top 25 #6 team and 3rd in the South) going into #5 and 2nd South Region team UMHB meant that it would be a real knock-down/drag-out.  MUC makes the argument that the experience that the backups get is a key to building a dynasty.
  •   Fourth, the Oxy/Whitworth example is not quite the same.  By your own Week #11 Top 25 (http://www.d3football.com/top25.php?year=2006&week=11), these were the 3rd and 5th best teams in the very tough West.  The NCAA had them 4th and 6th in the Nov 8th West Regional Rankings (http://www.ncaasports.com/football/mens/polls/polls/diviii).  We realize the regional nature of the D3, and a plane flight is a plane flight, but these were not members of the same conference, and neither had played a playoff team in the regular season.  UMHB had played 2 and HSU scheduled Linfield, recently of the playoffs.  West Region #6 Oxy should have expected to be flown somewhere.
  •   The NCAA did not abide by its principle to avoid pitting conference members in the first round.   I highlighted the potential intra-conference playoff matchups earlier on the message board (http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=4102.msg607086#msg607086).  I would be extremely happy to meet in the second round, geographical constraints acknowledged.  There is a certain bravado that arises from the moniker of the "Texas Sub-bracket".
When the NCAA gives me guidelines that allow me to maximize my playoff opportunities, then I am counting on them to be followed.

Ralph,
I knew you in particular would not be happy about that one, but folks then and now just made such a big deal out of it that the rest of us are tired of hearing it.

I don't believe those two teams should have met in the first round, but it happens. The NCAA promises you'll get into the playoffs if you do X, Y and Z, it's guidelines for matchups are explicitly not guarantees. Some of your above points are good, others are debatable, but it's time to let it rest.

Besides, the point was Occidental, undefeated for two straight years and sent on the road vs. an undefeated opponent both times, got screwed worse and complained less.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on January 28, 2007, 11:53:03 AM
Outstanding work, Keith. 

I particularly enjoyed Frank's comments on the season and your comments about man versus zone defense in parenting. :)

As for the "expertest expert," a little ditty by Tom Petty comes to mind...

"Even the looooooo-sers -
Get lucky some-times.
Even the looooo-sers -
Have a little bit of pride."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 28, 2007, 04:20:51 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 28, 2007, 12:50:42 AM

Ralph,
I knew you in particular would not be happy about that one, but folks then and now just made such a big deal out of it that the rest of us are tired of hearing it.

I don't believe those two teams should have met in the first round, but it happens. The NCAA promises you'll get into the playoffs if you do X, Y and Z, it's guidelines for matchups are explicitly not guarantees. Some of your above points are good, others are debatable, but it's time to let it rest.

Besides, the point was Occidental, undefeated for two straight years and sent on the road vs. an undefeated opponent both times, got screwed worse and complained less.

Well K-Mack, thanks.  I guess I am just ready to have it happen to us again next year.

As for Oxy's three non-conference regular season opponents, they went 9-19 and not a single one of those 9 victories was over a team with a .500 record.

Quote from: K-Mack on January 28, 2007, 12:42:42 AM

As far as the weekly vs. daily papers, I think the industry model is changing overall, from paid circulation to internet, mobile devices, etc. The people who give you information you want the best, whether local, regional or national, will still be in business if they can figure out how to deliver it to you.

Circulation is pretty much down everywhere, last I heard.

As for the change in the journalistic model, you are on the ground floor of this one, IMHO.  As the internet has brought the information sources that were previously only available to the editors of the big-city dailies, some of us have become more discerning consumers.  As I began to evaluate what my local editor was selecting to publish in our local daily, and I began to disagree with the accuracy of the content that he selected in my own area of expertise.  Then I began to wonder why I was paying him to do a service that I no longer trusted in my own area.   My nature is pretty egalitarian and almost libertarian.  I cannot make someone do something for or to themsleves that they are not ready to accept.  It was just time for me to become a more discerning consumer and to become my own editor.

This site has become its own network.  You are growing a generation of news consumers that is self-driven by the content that we hold dear.  Previously, we could not get this information more than 50 miles away from our alma maters, but you have brought it to us.  I hope that the model can change into something sustainable, as the print newspaper industry became with the birth of the telegraph.

Good luck in the off-season.   I have a couple of favorite sayings.

1)  It is a shame to waste first-born kids on inexperienced parents. :)

2)  You are not really a parent until you are out-numbered.  :)

We look forward to your return next year. :)

Now back to the audio feed of the VWC-Guilford Men's basketball game!  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bill McCabe on January 28, 2007, 10:02:58 PM
Ralph, As usual, great points.  I agree with you that it is not too much to expect an organization to follow their own guidelines. 

I quit watching the national news on TV because I felt it was so one sided and biased.  I didn't need someone to tell me how to interpret the news.  I found I really don't need to watch the local news, although I do watch the sports.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on January 29, 2007, 10:47:17 AM
KMack,
Great wrapup as usual. One question for me: You hit Ian O'Connor with a pretty solid (and deserved) shot. How much easier was because he'd left the Gannett fold ... ?  I mean what would happen if you pancaked Lopresti . . . :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on January 29, 2007, 10:54:50 AM
O'Connor is a JackA55!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: realistic on January 29, 2007, 11:05:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 28, 2007, 12:42:42 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on January 26, 2007, 11:16:33 PM
  Keith,
  Kudos on a great finish to another great DIII football season...
Hope you have time to get your batteries regenerated for next year but with those two young'uns I fear next football season may be just what the Dr. ordered. A Vacation.

Thanks. As you can see it took me until Friday evening to finish up, and even then I leaned on Pat to edit the final 1/4 of it, as I had to scoop up my wife and drop the kids off for a Friday night away from the parents. Then we went to see The Pursuit of Happyness, which makes you want to go home and hug your kids.  :(

I've thought about giving it up the past couple years, since family's been in the mix, but since it's the only thing I'm good at that people seem to appreciate, it's probably going to be tough to let go. I'm sure I'll be back.

Keith - I always enjoy your Around the Nation articles and Part 3 of the season in review was one of your best yet.  Keep up the good work.  I can only imagine the sacrafices you (and your family) make to do this....but there are a lot of us out here that really appreciate it.  THANKS.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Sakman 1111 on January 29, 2007, 03:50:52 PM
Agree with realistic Around the Nation is awesome......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 29, 2007, 08:19:57 PM
Quote from: repete on January 29, 2007, 10:47:17 AM
I mean what would happen if you pancaked Lopresti . . . :)

In my experience, Lopresti wouldn't have written that kind of crap. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 29, 2007, 09:35:31 PM
The armwrestler, Alan Fisher, is on ESPN2 right now.

Same match we saw in Salem, I think.

Ah, it's going off.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 29, 2007, 11:31:32 PM
Quote from: repete on January 29, 2007, 10:47:17 AM
KMack,
Great wrapup as usual. One question for me: You hit Ian O'Connor with a pretty solid (and deserved) shot. How much easier was because he'd left the Gannett fold ... ?  I mean what would happen if you pancaked Lopresti . . . :)

Honestly, I didn't know O'Connor left ... although now that you mention it, I haven't seen his column in a while. Since he was a not-in-the-building guy (based out of Westchester, N.Y.) his stuff seemed to be sporadic as it was. Like it would be once a week for a while, then gone for a while if Brennan and Saraceno were on their regular schedules. At least that's how it seemed.

As for the overall question, basically I've been doing this a lot longer than I've been with Gannett, although so far the company's been pretty good to me. I was hired at Sports Weekly then merged into the daily ... the college desk knows what I do, and what Pat does, but I don't know which of my superiors do and I'm in no rush to tell.

Possibly, pooping on another Gannett guy is the type of thing that could raise someone's ire and get them to ask me to give this up ... but I doubt that would happen. (although there is an outside content policy, but it mostly refers to embarassing yourself, and therefore the company, on blogs. Also, I stay away from sportsjournalists.com)

Basically, if you don't make a fool of yourself pretending you know something about the "lower divisions" when you don't, you and I aren't going to have any problems.

It's not like I came out with the unsupported, undeserved attack.  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 29, 2007, 11:46:40 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 28, 2007, 04:20:51 PM
As for Oxy's three non-conference regular season opponents, they went 9-19 and not a single one of those 9 victories was over a team with a .500 record.

Yeah, that's yucky ... but they also didn't lose to any of them.

We support aggressive scheduling, have been for years, but realize that the West Coast and Texas have their limitations.

I don't really see why they couldn't have let Millsaps lose at UMHB, send CNU to HSU or vice versa, have CMU play W&J and keep the 1-8 matchup as it was ... and then UMHB would have dumped HSU in the second round after a bus trip anyway.

But the committee has been doing it this way far too long to be surprised.

The only real curveballs I ever remember them throwing was John Caroll to the East bracket in '02 and Hardin-Simmons at Wittenberg in the '01 first round.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 01, 2007, 08:47:00 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2007, 11:46:40 PM
...
The only real curveballs I ever remember them throwing was John Caroll to the East bracket in '02 and Hardin-Simmons at Wittenberg in the '01 first round.
K-Mack, I will submit that the opportunity for the Pool C bid, especially in the bottom half of its regional bracket, to be sent to another region (whenever it can be justifiably done), is a good thing.  It promotes regional identiy among the fans;  it allows teams to see other styles of play that they may not routinely see; and, it allows a conference to demonstrate its relative strength, as JCU definitely did.

As an ASC fan, I would much rather see our Pool C bid sent to another bracket, even on the road for three games, than to catch an ASC opponent in an early rematch.

Thanks for the comments. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on February 03, 2007, 02:02:55 AM
k-mack...

One of the things that ticks me off about a "Texas Sub-bracket" is the impact on conference playoff records.  When 2 conf teams meet in round 1, you start off at .500.  i know that's petty, and I know just getting 2 teams consistently says something about the conference, but on a recruiting visit wouldn't the "quality conference" speech be more impressive saying, "Our top two conference schools each made it to the second round of the D3 playoffs in...  If you come here you'll play against quality opponents..."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 07, 2007, 08:40:42 PM
I agree with you both that it's not ideal. If it were me picking the bracket AND spending someone else's money, I would avoid rematches for as long as possible. Even non-conference rematches.

I thought we had an attendance thread, but I don't see it.

From Thursday's USA Today:
QuoteAlthough all-time records were not set in the FCS (Division I-AA) and Division III, both classifications were up from 2005. The 5,723,876 fans that saw FCS games in 2006 was the fourth-highest total in that subdivision and was up 395 fans per game from the previous year.

Division III realized an increase of 11,727 fans from 2005 to 2,099,746 in 2006. Coincidentally, the number of fans a game (1,840) matched the number from 2005.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCC_alum62 on February 16, 2007, 01:01:09 PM
Hey K-mack, loved ATN 2006-2007 really the best I've read in my short 3 years really reading this website, just thought you should know comming from a new guy as well as some of these vets.

I would love to read some more about North Central ;) in your ATN's...

just a suggestion
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on February 22, 2007, 03:49:26 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2773478&lpos=tv1&lid=tab1pos1

No mention of Allan in Clayton's 1st and 10.  Hopefully he'll be getting some mention was the combine gets underway. 

The D3 community is rooting for ya!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OshDude on February 27, 2007, 08:40:01 AM
For the lazy people among you  ;), here are several former D3 players who are/were on 2007 Arena Football League and af2 rosters, according to team Web sites. There are a lot more than I expected.

AFL
Arizona Rattlers:
OL/DL Ricky Gaspar, Linfield (recallable waivers Feb. 23)

Austin Wranglers:
WR Sakeen Wright, Rowan (waived Feb. 24)

Chicago Rush:
QB Matt D'Orazio, Otterbein (Feb. 24 resigning was the front-page Web story)
DB Jeremy Unertl, La Crosse
OL/DL Joe Peters, Concordia (Minn.)
CB Trey Bell, Whitewater (waived Feb. 23)
QB Brett Dietz, Hanover (waived Feb. 23)
FB/LB Bob McMillen, Benedictine

Columbus Destroyers:
FB Brad Greetis, Cal Lutheran
LB Jermaine Petty, Chapman (signed but not listed on roster)

Dallas Desperados:
K Carlos Martinez, Buena Vista

New Orleans VooDoo:
OL Matt Miller, Louisiana College

Orlando Predators:
DB Micheaux Robinson, Otterbein

Philadelphia Soul:
WR Steve Gonzalez, Menlo

Utah Blaze:
FB/LB Frank Carter, MacMurray

af2
Green Bay Blizzard:
TE Bob Docherty, Oshkosh
WR Bob Burnoski, La Crosse
WR/DB Danny Donaldson, Greenville
DB Anthony Fanelli, John Carroll
K Bob Forstrom, St. Norbert
WR Clark Lichty, Loras
OL/DL Andrew Rekuski, Eau Claire
FB/LB Frank Roe, Denison

Birmingham Steeldogs:
DL Tyrell Elston, Sewanee
QB Mitch Tanney, Monmouth

Albany Conquest:
FB/LB Michael Lewis, Adrian
OL/DL Rickey Jones, Kean
QB Daniel Cole, RPI
QB Joe Micco, Menlo
WR/DB Andreas Craig, Norwich
WR/DB Jamar Rawles, Norwich

Boise Burn:
WR/LB Casey Allen, Linfield
WR/DB Brandon Hazenberg, Linfield
WR/DB Tyler Peterson, Carroll

Bossier-Shreveport Battlewings:
OL/DL Benjamin Reed, Mary Hardin-Baylor

Central Valley Coyotes:
QB Clay Groefsema, Redlands

Cincinnati Jungle Kats:
OL/DL Jamar Neely, Central
OL/DL Luke Scarborough, Thomas More

Florida Firecats:
WR/LB Chris McKinney, Guilford

Fort Wayne Fusion:
WR/LB Melvin Parris, Buffalo St.

Laredo Lobos:
DB Mike Kimmel, Springfield
DB LaRon Ragsdale, Stevens Point

Lubbock Renegades:
WR/DB Patrick Williams, Mary Hardin-Baylor

Louisville Fire:
OL/DL Dwayne Lockridge, Anderson
QB Joel Steele, Anderson
WR Jasonus Tillery, Kean

Manchester Wolves:
WR/DB Andy Wellendorf, Mt. St. Joseph

Oklahoma City Yard Dawgz:
WR/DB Alex Jones, Whittier

Quad City Steamwheelers:
WR/DB Thomas Anthony, Augustana
WR Jesse Schmidt, Buena Vista

Rio Grande Valley Dorados:
OL/DL Einstein Dauphin, Maryville

Spokane Shock:
FB/LB Wyatt Gayer, Anderson
FB/LB Geoff Kirkendall, Wheaton
WR Tyke Spencer, North Central

Tennessee Valley Vipers:
WR/LB Lewis Howes, Principia

Tri-Cities Fever:
OS George Carter, Linfield
WR/DB Thomas Ford, Linfield
OL/DL Sean Kennedy, Coe

Tulsa Talons:
WR/DB Jeff Hughley, Averett

Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Pioneers:
DB Brendon Belt, Salisbury
WR Jim Jones, Widener
DL Dennis Kodack, Susquehanna
WR/DB Tim Parker, Kean
WR Tyreak Saviour, Widener
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 27, 2007, 10:51:18 PM
Quote from: NCC_alum62 on February 16, 2007, 01:01:09 PM
Hey K-mack, loved ATN 2006-2007 really the best I've read in my short 3 years really reading this website, just thought you should know comming from a new guy as well as some of these vets.

I would love to read some more about North Central ;) in your ATN's...

just a suggestion

Thanks,
if I ever get some time, I'll share a lot of the unused ATN year-end stuff. I know someone from North Central nominated several things.

For the record, there are 234 -- make that 237 -- schools, it's a lot to keep up with, but Pat and I have both been to North Central.

Along with Widener, it's my favorite D3 stadium. FWIW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 12, 2007, 01:15:42 AM
This is as good of a forum for the impact of this proposed legislation as any.

The vigorous and thought-provoking discussion on the brackets in the ASC seems to have prompted the bureaucratic wheels.

Thanks to Foss!

Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 11, 2007, 10:34:52 PM
Division III Football Recommends Changes to Bracket Process (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4g3NPUESYGYxqb6kWhCjhgihqYeCDFfj_zcVH1v_QD9gtzQ0IhyR0UAE3AuRw!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfMTVL?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/NCAA/NCAA+News/NCAA+News+Online/2007/Association-Updates/Division+III+football+recommends+changes+to+bracket+process+-+03-09-07+update)

Thanks to Foss on the NWC board!

Sounds like HSU at UMHB in the 2006 playoffs.  ;)

Note that the specific example deals with a #4 going to a #2.  HSU and UMHB, respectively?

I had this thought on the impact of that.  The current standings in post-season play are listed below.

NJAC 17 11 .607
E8 7 5 .583
MAC 12 9 .571
WIAC 12 10 .545
ACFC 6 5 .545
SCAC 9 8 .529
ODAC 10 9 .526
ASC 12 11 .522
NCAC 10 9 .526
CCIW 11 11 .500
Independents 5 7 .417
PAC 6 9 .400
UCAA/LL 7 11 .389
FFC (defunct) 3 5 .375
IIAC 6 11 .353
UAA 1 2 .333


Imagine in a decade that five seasons had two ASC teams that were top seeds and were to play one another.

#2 UMHB beats #4 HSU and then loses to #1 Wesley.

ASC record in postseason play 1-2.   Over 5 seasons, that become 5-10.

Under the new scenario,

#2 UMHB beats #7, #4 HSU beats #5.  If the next round were #2 UMHB beating #3 and #4 HSU losing to #1 Wesley, then #2 UMHB losing to #1 Wesley, the ASC's record would be 3-2 (.600).  Over 5 seasons that  become 15-10!

That is a big difference, (.333 to .600).  Now I can see the seeding possibly allowing a #4 HSU going to #2 UMHB in the second round, (#2 UMHB getting the chance to host 2 home games).  But, UMHB would get the chance to host 2 games.

This is definitely one to watch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 12, 2007, 06:49:07 PM
I have something else that doesn't really have a good place to be posted (though I am going to put it a couple other places)

Blogging is huge in the newspaper biz these days. So everyone's trying to link to what's news, both on and off the beaten path. USA Today, on Friday, picked up some Bluffton baseball news and the D3hoops.com story on Lincoln, which happened to be written by yours truly in my yearly foray into basketball, when Pat and the gang has more stories to write than writers.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscope/2007/03/09/index.html

(scroll down a bit)

What's interesting is that I had nothing to do with linking the blog to that story. In other words, they would have found it just the same if I didn't work here.

Another point for D3 getting national notice, although this has nothing to do with football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 12, 2007, 09:55:46 PM
Here's another one that'll probably find a home elsewhere, if it hasn't already:

Guilford-related, from March 6

QuoteLawyer: one more apology needed

By Tom Steadman
Staff Writer

GREENSBORO -- The lawyer for two Palestinian students who say they were attacked by football players at Guilford College in January said Monday that his clients have received apologies from three of four athletes involved in the fight.

When the fourth apology is received, Amiel Rossabi said, his clients will ask that charges be dismissed.

"They need to give us their apologies, and then we're going to go over to the district attorney's office and get the charges against them dismissed," said Rossabi, attorney for Faris Khader and Osama Sabbah.

"The boys settled it among themselves," Rossabi said.

Good for them!

Rest of the article: http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070306/NEWSREC0101/703060302/-1/NEWSREC0201
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 04, 2007, 07:07:32 PM
Hey, they're even pronoucing "Gagliardi" correctly on ESPN, in conjunction with the Eddie Robinson obit.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 27, 2007, 11:47:50 PM
D1 licenses 32 Bowl Games. (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3CQXJgFjGpvqRqCKOcAFfj_zcVH1v_QD9gtzQiHJHRUUAc0tpTA!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_events/press_room/2007/april/20070418_bowl_licensing_rls.html)

They invite 64 teams to play in the post-season and still cannot get it right some years.

D3 now has 31 Post-season games and settles it on the field!

San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl?  Why is that credit union spending the big bucks on a bowl game?  They could be offering a higher rate on their CD's or lower rates on their auto loans! >:(
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 08, 2007, 01:16:45 AM
The weird thing is few people care about those games, but D-I traditionalists regard bowls as some rite of passage as though more can't cheapen the experience and playoffs don't kick way more ... um ... butt.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on May 08, 2007, 11:35:48 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 27, 2007, 11:47:50 PM
D1 licenses 32 Bowl Games. (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3CQXJgFjGpvqRqCKOcAFfj_zcVH1v_QD9gtzQiHJHRUUAc0tpTA!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_events/press_room/2007/april/20070418_bowl_licensing_rls.html)

They invite 64 teams to play in the post-season and still cannot get it right some years.

D3 now has 31 Post-season games and settles it on the field!

San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl?  Why is that credit union spending the big bucks on a bowl game?  They could be offering a higher rate on their CD's or lower rates on their auto loans! >:(

My favorite was always the Chick-fil-a Peach Bowl...

MMMMMMMMM Chicken. 

Not far behind is the Papajohns.com bowl and the emerald nut bowl!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on May 09, 2007, 04:31:35 AM
None of the DIII playoff games, including the Stagg Bowl, draws much attendance (or in the case of the Stagg Bowl TV viewership) even by the standards of the least attended (TV viewed) DIA bowl games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on May 09, 2007, 09:06:54 PM
Quote from: frank uible on May 09, 2007, 04:31:35 AM
None of the DIII playoff games, including the Stagg Bowl, draws much attendance (or in the case of the Stagg Bowl TV viewership) even by the standards of the least attended (TV viewed) DIA bowl games.

Honestly I think making that comparison is like comparing apples and oranges....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 09, 2007, 09:13:36 PM
Like the 2005 Poinsettia Bowl and its 0.52 rating? The Stagg Bowl that year did an 0.63.

This year's Stagg Bowl did a 1.26, though I can't find TV ratings on other bowls yet.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on May 09, 2007, 09:17:29 PM
In recent years the Stagg Bowl drew about 5000 in per game attendance. I bet the Poinciana Bowl draws more than 20,000.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 09, 2007, 09:18:21 PM
You were the one who put TV ratings out there as a valid measure.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on May 09, 2007, 09:30:03 PM
I'm 1/2 correct.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on May 09, 2007, 09:34:26 PM
The attendance comparison remains apples vs. oranges for me....

The stadium, the size of the schools, the size of the cities where the games are played.  I wouldn't even necessarily give you half.  Just my opinion though. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 09, 2007, 09:43:16 PM
Don't forget the lead time with which the games are played.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on May 09, 2007, 10:56:37 PM
Just the facts. No value judgments.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on May 09, 2007, 10:59:03 PM
Here is some historical data on BCS bowl games' TV ratings and attendance so you can play the Stagg Bowl Ratings and Attendance game at home. :)

http://www.bcsfootball.org/bcsfb/tvratings


2006: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN   1.26   6,051
2005: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN2   0.63  4,619
2004: Linfield/Mary Hardin-Baylor   ESPN2   0.52   3,240
2001: Mount Union/Bridgewater   ESPN2   0.6   7,992
2000: Mount Union/St. John's   ESPN2   .5   4,643
1999: Pacific Lutheran/Rowan   ESPN2   .3  4,101
1988: Mount Union/Rowan   ESPN   1.3   5,145

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on May 09, 2007, 11:08:03 PM
Uh oh, Gordon, your link lists the Poinsettia Bowl rating as 0.89 (not 0.52).

You sure you want to risk your job over mere facts! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 10, 2007, 12:10:57 AM
Like I said ... no listing for 2006.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on May 10, 2007, 01:27:25 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 09, 2007, 09:13:36 PM
Like the 2005 Poinsettia Bowl and its 0.52 rating? The Stagg Bowl that year did an 0.63.

This year's Stagg Bowl did a 1.26, though I can't find TV ratings on other bowls yet.

This is what I was teasing you and Gordon about.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 10, 2007, 10:01:25 AM
I'm aware. But I'm betting Stagg 06 outrated at least one I-A bowl.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Just Bill on May 10, 2007, 05:53:41 PM
Quote from: pg04 on May 08, 2007, 11:35:48 PM

My favorite was always the Chick-fil-a Peach Bowl...

MMMMMMMMM Chicken. 

Not far behind is the Papajohns.com bowl and the emerald nut bowl!!

Five words...

Poulan Weed Eater Independence Bowl
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on May 19, 2007, 08:20:14 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on May 09, 2007, 10:59:03 PM
Here is some historical data on BCS bowl games' TV ratings and attendance so you can play the Stagg Bowl Ratings and Attendance game at home. :)

http://www.bcsfootball.org/bcsfb/tvratings


2006: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN   1.26   6,051
2005: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN2   0.63  4,619
2004: Linfield/Mary Hardin-Baylor   ESPN2   0.52   3,240
2001: Mount Union/Bridgewater   ESPN2   0.6   7,992
2000: Mount Union/St. John's   ESPN2   .5   4,643
1999: Pacific Lutheran/Rowan   ESPN2   .3  4,101
1988: Mount Union/Rowan   ESPN   1.3   5,145



What struck me the most is the difference in TV ratings when the game is played on ESPN instead of ESPN2.  The game is much easier for the casual viewer to stumble upon.  Remaining on ESPN could help the Stagg Bowl develop a following among the general sports fan. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on May 25, 2007, 07:22:12 AM
This Memorial Day we should all remember it is not about the parties and sales.  It is to remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for their friends, family and country.  Take some time this year and attend your towns observations.  Take some time out if you are with family and friends to remember these young men and women.  If you see the men and women of the VFW and their Auxilaries giving out poppies, take one and give a small donation if you can, wear it to remember.  Look up the poem "On Flanders Fields" and you will understand the poppy.

Yesterday the town of Secaucus had the first of their two memorial day ceremonies.  The Thursday before Memorial day is in a park and they have hot dogs, an Uncle Sam impersonater for the kids, the elementary school choir and the Boy Scouts present the colors.  It is very nice.  Memorial Day the  VFW and American Legion run the show.

The ceremony was very touching and dedicated to a young Marine from town who just gave his life for his country in April.  The mayor announced that the town will continue it's tradition of naming public roads and parks after soldiers and sailors who have paid the ultimate price by renaming a small park in town after Miguel Maricial III.  A mother who sat strongly and quietly through it all broke down finally.

After the ceremony I had the duty to approach the family and offer my thanks and condolences.

This is what this weekend is about.  A ceremony like this really hammers home what the holiday is all about.

Michael Dougherty
Sr. Vice Commander VFW Memorial Post 3776, Secaucus, NJ.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on May 25, 2007, 02:19:14 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on May 25, 2007, 07:22:12 AM
This Memorial Day we should all remember it is not about the parties and sales.  It is to remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for their friends, family and country.  Take some time this year and attend your towns observations.  Take some time out if you are with family and friends to remember these young men and women.  If you see the men and women of the VFW and their Auxilaries giving out poppies, take one and give a small donation if you can, wear it to remember.  Look up the poem "On Flanders Fields" and you will understand the poppy.

Yesterday the town of Secaucus had the first of their two memorial day ceremonies.  The Thursday before Memorial day is in a park and they have hot dogs, an Uncle Sam impersonater for the kids, the elementary school choir and the Boy Scouts present the colors.  It is very nice.  Memorial Day the  VFW and American Legion run the show.

The ceremony was very touching and dedicated to a young Marine from town who just gave his life for his country in April.  The mayor announced that the town will continue it's tradition of naming public roads and parks after soldiers and sailors who have paid the ultimate price by renaming a small park in town after Miguel Maricial III.  A mother who sat strongly and quietly through it all broke down finally.

After the ceremony I had the duty to approach the family and offer my thanks and condolences.

This is what this weekend is about.  A ceremony like this really hammers home what the holiday is all about.

Michael Dougherty
Sr. Vice Commander VFW Memorial Post 3776, Secaucus, NJ.



Amen!!!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: runyr on May 28, 2007, 01:13:05 AM
Quote from: footballfan413 on May 19, 2007, 08:20:14 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on May 09, 2007, 10:59:03 PM
Here is some historical data on BCS bowl games' TV ratings and attendance so you can play the Stagg Bowl Ratings and Attendance game at home. :)

http://www.bcsfootball.org/bcsfb/tvratings


2006: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN   1.26   6,051
2005: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN2   0.63  4,619
2004: Linfield/Mary Hardin-Baylor   ESPN2   0.52   3,240
2001: Mount Union/Bridgewater   ESPN2   0.6   7,992
2000: Mount Union/St. John's   ESPN2   .5   4,643
1999: Pacific Lutheran/Rowan   ESPN2   .3  4,101
1988: Mount Union/Rowan   ESPN   1.3   5,145



What struck me the most is the difference in TV ratings when the game is played on ESPN instead of ESPN2.  The game is much easier for the casual viewer to stumble upon.  Remaining on ESPN could help the Stagg Bowl develop a following among the general sports fan. 
Interesting.
Just in case someone notices, there's a typo on the ESPN MTU/Rowan game.  It was 1998.
BTW, MTU won that game 44-24.
Fact check source:
http://www.mtunionfootball.com/resultsbyyear/results1991-00.htm
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 29, 2007, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: pg04 on May 08, 2007, 11:35:48 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 27, 2007, 11:47:50 PM
D1 licenses 32 Bowl Games. (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3CQXJgFjGpvqRqCKOcAFfj_zcVH1v_QD9gtzQiHJHRUUAc0tpTA!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_events/press_room/2007/april/20070418_bowl_licensing_rls.html)

They invite 64 teams to play in the post-season and still cannot get it right some years.

D3 now has 31 Post-season games and settles it on the field!

San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl?  Why is that credit union spending the big bucks on a bowl game?  They could be offering a higher rate on their CD's or lower rates on their auto loans! >:(

My favorite was always the Chick-fil-a Peach Bowl...

MMMMMMMMM Chicken. 

Not far behind is the Papajohns.com bowl and the emerald nut bowl!!

Nothing will ever top the Poulan Weed Eater Bowl, although Gaylord Hotels Music City bowl and the aforementioned Credit Union and Nut bowls are up there.

I see Just Bill has mentioned my favorite bowl.

Anyway, just re-mentioning this, also noted on the D3 Players in the Pros Thread:

QuoteI'm not sure if I've discussed this before, doing a list of famous alumni of D3 universities, players and non-players ... although technically, poker great Doyle Brunson (who apparently did some time at Hardin-Simmons) is a player. :)

Will have to work on this list and find a place for it.

Along with Doyle, there's Belichick, Mangini and Rod Marinelli (although Pat likes to point out that Cal Lu wasn't D3 when he played there), Phil Savage, Joan Benoit-Samuelsson, Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon, etc. ... I'm sure there are many, many more good ones. May have to start the list here until we find a solid home for it on the board or on FAQ. There might already be a general thread floating around somewhere, but it's so hard to remember when we're out of season :)

Oh, and the founder and CEO of Dollar Tree. Randolph-Macon in the house, y'all!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 29, 2007, 10:37:24 PM
Quote from: footballfan413 on May 19, 2007, 08:20:14 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on May 09, 2007, 10:59:03 PM
Here is some historical data on BCS bowl games' TV ratings and attendance so you can play the Stagg Bowl Ratings and Attendance game at home. :)

http://www.bcsfootball.org/bcsfb/tvratings


2006: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN   1.26   6,051
2005: Mount Union/UW-Whitewater   ESPN2   0.63  4,619
2004: Linfield/Mary Hardin-Baylor   ESPN2   0.52   3,240
2001: Mount Union/Bridgewater   ESPN2   0.6   7,992
2000: Mount Union/St. John's   ESPN2   .5   4,643
1999: Pacific Lutheran/Rowan   ESPN2   .3  4,101
1988: Mount Union/Rowan   ESPN   1.3   5,145



What struck me the most is the difference in TV ratings when the game is played on ESPN instead of ESPN2.  The game is much easier for the casual viewer to stumble upon.  Remaining on ESPN could help the Stagg Bowl develop a following among the general sports fan. 

That's a good point.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on May 29, 2007, 10:40:12 PM
K-Mack,

Just be always clear that these are grads of schools NOW in d3 (afterall, d3 arose quite a few years after Reagan and Nixon went to Eureka and Whittier) - otherwise Pat may do a "Jack Sikma" on your head! ;) :o

If you expand it beyond grads, John Wesley Powell, first man down the Grand Canyon and first head of the U. S. Geological Survey, was a professor at IWU (but they had not yet joined d3, so I am not suggesting him as the most illustrious one-armed Civil War general in the division). ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 29, 2007, 11:13:58 PM
So for the die-hards that actually read this thread, I value your opinions and hereby solicit them.

Started looking at games I might attend this year. Haven't gone too much in depth, I know we have another Texas trip planned, with probable ventures this year to Wisc., Michigan ... and I noticed Wesley at Widener on a Friday night Sept. 14. Del Val playing Wesley is nice too.

What games, for those of you who have looked at a schedule, would you want us/Around the Nation to attend?

Also, what storylines do you want us to tackle in Kickoff '07? There's the obvious Who's No. 2 discussion, since Mount Union has so much back I can't imagine anyone else being No. 1 to start. And there's the offseason turmoil and changes in the WIAC. But what else?

Who do you all think will be breakout teams? NC Wesleyan? Emory & Henry? (just throwing some teams that finished strong out there)

Breakout players/impact transfers?

Whatever you see, we might already have our eye on it, but we might not, and pointing us in the right direction could get us on the right track so we can properly report on it from the start of the season.

Serious answers only please, no self-promotion.

Thanks.

KMc.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 29, 2007, 11:16:58 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on May 29, 2007, 10:40:12 PM
K-Mack,

Just be always clear that these are grads of schools NOW in d3 (afterall, d3 arose quite a few years after Reagan and Nixon went to Eureka and Whittier) - otherwise Pat may do a "Jack Sikma" on your head! ;) :o

If you expand it beyond grads, John Wesley Powell, first man down the Grand Canyon and first head of the U. S. Geological Survey, was a professor at IWU (but they had not yet joined d3, so I am not suggesting him as the most illustrious one-armed Civil War general in the division). ;D

Absolutely. At least one of our most illustrious current D3ers began his coaching career before there was a D3. :) ... 1973 to be exact, but the seeds were planted in 68 or 69 ... I always mention that because R-MC was Knute Rockne Bowl champs and undefeated in '69!

(Hey, when you ain't Mount Union, Augustana or Ithaca, you gotta count whatever championships you can get your hands on)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on May 30, 2007, 11:43:26 AM
Some possible issues:

Key Transfer (maybe): Cal Lutheran qb Danny Jones to UWW - if it actually happened.  There was a long discussion of this on the SCIAC board last month but I'm not sure if anyone ever confirmed that the transfer actually took place.

Big Topic: Steroid use in D3 - is Fay Vincent right?  (See NESCAC board.)

Another Big Topic: Is the NCAA going to split D3?

Topic NOT to cover: Where should the Stagg Bowl be played?  ;D ;D ::) 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 30, 2007, 09:42:23 PM
Tmerton,
Thanks for your input. Jones was one of the "changes" in the WIAC referred to above.

I believe we were discussing ratings on this thread. According to USA TODAY: Anaheim's 3-2 win against Ottawa in the opener of the Stanley Cup Finals got a 0.72 cable rating on Versus and was watched in 523,000 U.S. households.

Whoo-hoo, have some NHL and Versus. The Stagg Bowl outdoes The Stanley Cup. At least in the U.S.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 30, 2007, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on May 30, 2007, 09:42:23 PM
Tmerton,
Thanks for your input. Jones was one of the "changes" in the WIAC referred to above.

I believe we were discussing ratings on this thread. According to USA TODAY: Anaheim's 3-2 win against Ottawa in the opener of the Stanley Cup Finals got a 0.72 cable rating on Versus and was watched in 523,000 U.S. households.

Whoo-hoo, have some NHL and Versus. The Stagg Bowl outdoes The Stanley Cup. At least in the U.S.

I wonder how many fans residing in Orange County California watched the match on cable versus the number in attendance at the rink.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 31, 2007, 12:20:38 AM
You think the numbers might be close?  ;D

It was actually a good game tonight (I work in sports, I have to pay attention to such things) ... and it's pretty well accepted that hockey is much more fun in person than on TV.

But I think fan interest has everything to do with being emotionally invested in either the teams/institutions or the players, for some reason ... and in American cities outside the Northeast and Northern Midwest, hockey is just not ingrained in the culture. People don't have that attachment, IMHO.

Anyway ...

(They just showed Snoop Dogg at the game with his kids though ... interesting)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on May 31, 2007, 07:41:52 AM
Games to attend---
Augsburg @ St. Johns 1pm

WW @ St. Cloud State 6pm

Sept. 15

Chance to see 2 games same day.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 31, 2007, 11:31:08 PM
Quote from: janesvilleflash on May 31, 2007, 07:41:52 AM
Games to attend---
Augsburg @ St. Johns 1pm

WW @ St. Cloud State 6pm

Sept. 15

Chance to see 2 games same day.

Yeah, we love night kickoffs for that reason. Always wary of the one team not being D3, and there's a chance neither game would be terribly significant. Or that we'd see both teams down the road at some point. But I was reading about that weekend on the thread devoted to it.

However, a game at St. John's is on my list of things to do this year.

Sept. 14-15 also features Wesley @ Widener on Friday night and Rowan @ Wilkes on Saturday at 1. The latter a rematch of a playoff game that had a really crazy ending.

Great suggestions Janesville. Keep 'em coming, folks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on June 01, 2007, 01:58:10 AM
How about UMHB vs Whitewater or UMHB vs CNU.  UMHB lost to both in heartbreakers last year.  UMHB vs HSU is always a classic.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 01, 2007, 03:08:25 PM
I think Keith saw both those games last year. :)

We're definitely on board with Keith taking a trip to Collegeville this year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on June 01, 2007, 03:34:45 PM
I would love to go to The University of the South during peak foliage - have never been there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KennethK on June 01, 2007, 04:45:38 PM
If any of you guys like a packed house..you might consider the St Johns vs St Olaf game in Collegeville Oct 7th.  It is Homecoming for SJU, both teams could very well be unbeaten, two of best senior QB's in the country, a crowd of about 12000, and the fall colors in full bloom.  Should be a dandy..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Sakman 1111 on June 01, 2007, 04:52:04 PM
My preseason pick for an awesome game to attend is Mary Hardin Baylor at Whitewater....The Perk is a great place to tailgate and both teams should be awesome. A chance to see the West Coast Messiah at QB.....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KennethK on June 01, 2007, 04:57:58 PM
correction on the Johnnie vs St Olaf game..make that Oct 6th..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 04, 2007, 12:31:42 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 01, 2007, 03:08:25 PMI think Keith saw both those games last year. :)

Yeah, that's true. I believe UMHB was 0-3 in my presence last year, 10-0 when I wasn't in the house. Perhaps RoCru and the fellas in and around Belton might want to pass on a visit from ATN this year.  ;)

Also, made it to The Perk the past two years. Although UWW should definitely be relevant again this year, there is the "we should mix it up some" school of thought. Either mixing up who from D3 gets to go or what games I myself and Pat (likely reunited this year as a No. Va.-based team) are able to make it to.

Still, a great game -- anywhere -- will be hard to pass up if we can make it happen.

Listening to anything.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on June 04, 2007, 12:25:49 PM
Actually Perkins is one of the very few -- maybe the only -- West region stadium that most of the D3football crew has visited.  So you're free to take another turn if you want. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 05, 2007, 10:46:37 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on June 04, 2007, 12:25:49 PM
Actually Perkins is one of the very few -- maybe the only -- West region stadium that most of the D3football crew has visited.  So you're free to take another turn if you want. :)

I realize this. As I've heard all your "I broadcasted from the roof" grumbling.  ;)

The "mix it up" theory is more of a general practice. Between Pat and I, we've nearly hit every conference, but we have well over 100 stadiums to go, and that's counting ones we visit on non-game days.

In any case ... storylines.

I wonder how pissed off Franklin and Cortland State are, and if they're looking good for this coming year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 11, 2007, 09:17:51 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on May 29, 2007, 10:19:19 PMAnyway, just re-mentioning this, also noted on the D3 Players in the Pros Thread:

QuoteI'm not sure if I've discussed this before, doing a list of famous alumni of D3 universities, players and non-players ... although technically, poker great Doyle Brunson (who apparently did some time at Hardin-Simmons) is a player. :)

Will have to work on this list and find a place for it.

Along with Doyle, there's Belichick, Mangini and Rod Marinelli (although Pat likes to point out that Cal Lu wasn't D3 when he played there), Phil Savage, Joan Benoit-Samuelsson, Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon, etc. ... I'm sure there are many, many more good ones. May have to start the list here until we find a solid home for it on the board or on FAQ. There might already be a general thread floating around somewhere, but it's so hard to remember when we're out of season :)

Oh, and the founder and CEO of Dollar Tree. Randolph-Macon in the house, y'all!

Gordon tells me John Cena of WWE fame was a center on Springfield's 2000 team.

Also, didn't he post about the Amherst kid who was (in) Finding Forrester?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on June 12, 2007, 12:39:55 AM
Johnny Mac posted about Amherst alum Rob Brown who was in Coach Carter (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/05/21/amhersts-rob-brown-to-play-ernie-davis-on-silver-screen).  Maybe that's what you meant.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 12, 2007, 09:25:34 PM
Mann, McGraw ... same difference.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 12, 2007, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on June 12, 2007, 12:39:55 AM
Johnny Mac posted about Amherst alum Rob Brown who was in Coach Carter (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/05/21/amhersts-rob-brown-to-play-ernie-davis-on-silver-screen).  Maybe that's what you meant.


Thanks for the link though. If you read it, he was in Finding Forrester too.

(read it)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 12, 2007, 10:22:24 PM
Ooh, hate to give away my sources, but this list of Mount Union coaches currently coaching elsewhere could come in handy:

http://www.mtunionfootball.com/mtunionfootball/raidersnewsletter/07may.pdf

I didn't know Dom Capers was a Purple Raider. Knew Don Shula was a Blue Streak though.

(adds to list)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 13, 2007, 01:29:53 AM
A couple more for the alumni list ...

Supersonics GM Sam Presti (Emerson) (source, D3hoops.com)
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell (Wash. & Jeff.)
Pittsburgh Mayor Luke whats-his-face (also W&J) ... Ravenstahl?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on June 13, 2007, 04:21:39 AM
Yes, Luke Ravenstahl is the young Mayor of Pittsburgh.

You could do this by profession.  Under politics you've got Richard Nixon (Whittier) and Ronald Reagan (Eureka).  For acting, you've got Paul Newman (Kenyon), Susan Sarandon (Catholic) and Meryl Streep (Vassar).

And there's a whole bunch in the higher levels of pro sports (coaches/GMs)...

Marv Levy, Coe
Stan Van Gundy, Brockport State
Jeff Van Gundy, Nazareth
Ted Cottrell, Delaware Valley
Chuck Knox, Juniata
Eric Mangini, Wesleyan
George Steinbrenner, Williams
Bill Belichick, Wesleyan
Brian Cashman (NY Yankees GM), Catholic
Branch Rickey, Ohio Wesleyan


There are also a ton who attended but didn't graduate from D3 schools (Jerry Seinfeld at Oswego State, Kevin James at Cortland State, Tim Robbins at Plattsburgh State -- what's up with the SUNY schools? -- Judd Nelson at Haverford, Jennifer Garner at Denison).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 13, 2007, 11:27:54 AM
Carolina Panthers GM Marty Hurney is also a Catholic grad.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: realistic on June 13, 2007, 12:30:55 PM
Ithaca has Karl Ravech of ESPN, actor David Boreanz, ABC News Anchor David Muir, Disney COE Bob Iger.

Oswego also has Al Roker, Steve Levy and Linda Cohn.

Cortland has Mankind (WWE) as an attendee, not grad I think.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on June 13, 2007, 01:08:35 PM
The thing about SUNY schools is that there are a gagillion of them (actual number may be smaller) and they are relatively easy to get into.

Don't forget SUNY Binghampton alum Tony "PTI" Kornheiser
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on June 13, 2007, 03:16:31 PM
Former Director of the US Secret Service is a Mount Union Graduate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_L._Stafford
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on June 13, 2007, 04:44:29 PM
'Gro:

I think you're right on the SUNY thing.  There are something like 64 schools when you include the community colleges and I don't think that includes all the CUNY schools in the City.

Since I lived in Binghamton for four years, it's mandatory that I say "there is no P in Binghamton."  And since I'm a cornball I'll add, "What do they do -- hold it until they leave the city?"

Plus the artist formerly known as SUNY-Binghamton left the D3 party.  So poopy on Tony Korheiser and Paul Reiser (Binghamton U alums) -- they don't make the list.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on June 13, 2007, 05:57:15 PM
Quote from: realistic on June 13, 2007, 12:30:55 PM
Ithaca has Karl Ravech of ESPN, actor David Boreanz, ABC News Anchor David Muir, Disney COE Bob Iger.

Oswego also has Al Roker, Steve Levy and Linda Cohn.

Cortland has Mankind (WWE) as an attendee, not grad I think.

That post made me laugh.......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on June 13, 2007, 10:40:19 PM
Ray Liotta attended JCSC, now NJCU for a year or two before transferring to Miami of FL.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 14, 2007, 08:09:26 PM
Now we're cooking with gas.

RPI has someone famous from the film world ... Farrelly brothers maybe, or one of them.

Also, one of the SCIAC schools or Chapman had more than one legendary coach pass through. Don Coryell maybe ... hold on, now that I've thought of a name, let me Google that.

BLAM!

George Allen too.

QuoteAlthough it is highly unusual for a coach or athlete from a small college to go onto a coaching career in professional football, Allen is not the only Whittier coach or player to have done so.  Jerry Burns, backfield coach under Allen at Whittier during the 1950s, went on to become head coach of the Minnesota Vikings.  Don Coryell, who replaced Allen at Whittier, went on to become head coach for the San Diego Chargers.  Russ Purnell, who graduated from Whittier College in 1970, is special teams coach for the Indianapolis Colts, and Jim Skipper, who graduated from Whittier College in 1973, is running back coach for the Carolina Panthers.
... From Whittier.edu

Also, Springfield has about 1,000 assistant coaches in the NFL. And one of the Schottenheimers is a D3 guy.

Did a list a few years ago out of an NFL fact book. No idea where it is, plus all the staffs have probably turned over by now.

Anyway ...

I came on this thread for a new topic that has no home.

R.I.P. St. Peter's (N.J.) football ... that's two Jersey City football teams who have bitten the dust in five years.

Not sure if Salisbury had the I-AA non-scholarship program scheduled or not this year, but in reading about it I found out why they had so much trouble getting games. They played at a city-owned facility who only let them host on Thursday or Saturday night. Ouch.

P.S. Actual number may be smaller =  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 14, 2007, 08:13:01 PM
Yep, Salisbury had them on the schedule:

http://www.d3football.com/school_info.php?school=Salisbury&year=2007

So did Western Connecticut:

http://www.d3football.com/school_info.php?school=Western+Connecticut&year=2007

Wonder if they can juggle their schedule and play each other.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on June 14, 2007, 09:26:36 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on June 13, 2007, 04:44:29 PM
Since I lived in Binghamton for four years, it's mandatory that I say "there is no P in Binghamton."  And since I'm a cornball I'll add, "What do they do -- hold it until they leave the city?"

I knew something was not right about the way I spelled it.  It's only right, since it's pronounced BING-um-tin.

Quote from: K-Mack on June 14, 2007, 08:09:26 PM
RPI has someone famous from the film world ... Farrelly brothers maybe, or one of them.

upon further review... it was Bobby Farrelly (only) that went to RPI.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 14, 2007, 10:01:26 PM
It's amazing the stuff I kinda-sorta know about D3.

I think I read that he was big into RPI hockey in conjuction with the Matt Damon/Kinnear movie, and I was like 'what the?'

Gro, you got the Sopranos on tape/DVD? I saw the first three this season and the last two (liked the end fine, BTW), but I missed the demise of Chris Moltisanti, etc. ... looking for the middle episodes and saw your tagline.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on June 14, 2007, 10:23:10 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 14, 2007, 10:01:26 PM
Gro, you got the Sopranos on tape/DVD? I saw the first three this season and the last two (liked the end fine, BTW), but I missed the demise of Chris Moltisanti, etc. ... looking for the middle episodes and saw your tagline.

negative... probably on eBay somewhere.   w/o turning this into the sopranos thread, I also had no problem with the ending (no proof that he lived or died... it ended!).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on June 15, 2007, 10:48:07 AM
Does anyone else remember an article about Colorado College football and one of its players in Sports Illustrated a long time ago?  Probably at least 30 years ago I'd think (yikes).  The thing I remember most was a story about how the young man who was the focus of the article had hung a sign in the visitors' locker room explaining that the CC field was named after a visiting player who had died when his lungs collapsed due to his failure to adjust to the high altitude.  (I believe this was shortly after the Mexico City Olympics when altitude adjustment had been pushed into the national consciousness.)  Will SI search for/provide articles from its archives?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: realistic on June 15, 2007, 12:14:06 PM
the Farrley mention made me remember Rod Serling.  I don't believe he attended Ithaca but he was a professor there for a while and a number of his Awards (emmys, etc) were on display in the Park School.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D O.C. on June 15, 2007, 02:20:11 PM
$.02 from a kinder, gentler WILDCAT NATION:

QuoteWhat games, for those of you who have looked at a schedule, would you want us/Around the Nation to attend?

What's wrong with peddling out to McMinnville for the Hardin Simmons free-for-all? other than the fact 70 % of the people in the country live east of the Rockies.

Hey! Steely Dan=Bard College.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on June 15, 2007, 02:41:50 PM
Quote from: OxyBob on June 15, 2007, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: tmerton on June 15, 2007, 10:48:07 AM
Does anyone else remember an article about Colorado College football and one of its players in Sports Illustrated a long time ago?  Probably at least 30 years ago I'd think (yikes).  The thing I remember most was a story about how the young man who was the focus of the article had hung a sign in the visitors' locker room explaining that the CC field was named after a visiting player who had died when his lungs collapsed due to his failure to adjust to the high altitude.  (I believe this was shortly after the Mexico City Olympics when altitude adjustment had been pushed into the national consciousness.)  Will SI search for/provide articles from its archives?

Colorado College plays on Washburn Field. Here's a description of its history:

Colorado College Athletics Facilities: Washburn Field (http://www.coloradocollege.edu/athletics/Facilities/Washburn_Field/index.asp)

I kinda sorta remember the article you're talking about. I looked briefly but couldn't find anything in the SI archives, though I did run across this tongue-in-cheek article about the SI swimsuit issue in The Brushback:

http://www.thebrushback.com/uglywomen_full.htm

OxyBob


   School                                    Stadium                              Year


1.   Wesleyan University (CT)    Andrus Field (Nation's oldest field)    1881

2.   Williams College  Weston Field (Oldest in Massachusetts)  1883 (As if Williams needed another excuse to "gig" the defectors!!!  :D)

3.   Amherst College    Pratt Field    1891

4.   Univ. of the South    McGee Field(Oldest in the South)    1891

5.   Illinois Wesleyan University    Illinois Wesleyan    (Oldest in the Midwest!   :D )1893

6.   University of Pennsylvania    Franklin Field(Oldest Division I Field)    1895

7.   Bowdoin College    Whittier Field    1896

8.   Colorado College    Washburn Field(Oldest west of Miss. River)    1898

9.   Susquehannah University    Amos Alonzo Stagg Field    1899

10.   Bates College    Carcelon Field    1898
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on June 15, 2007, 08:26:35 PM
Quote from: D O.C. on June 15, 2007, 02:20:11 PM
$.02 from a kinder, gentler WILDCAT NATION:

QuoteWhat games, for those of you who have looked at a schedule, would you want us/Around the Nation to attend?

What's wrong with peddling out to McMinnville for the Hardin Simmons free-for-all? other than the fact 70 % of the people in the country live east of the Rockies.

Hey! Steely Dan=Bard College.

But you need to remember the line from My Old School, "Never going back to Annandale"  must of been a fun time.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on June 16, 2007, 11:16:57 AM
I didn't look it up, was just remembering off the top of my head.  Besides I'm only the bass player not the lead singer.  I just learn choruseseseses
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on June 17, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
Ralph:

I've been to six of the fields on that list -- the five NESCACs and Franklin Field.  Andrus Field (Google Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Wesleyan+University+Middletown+Connecticut&sll=40.813484,-73.758264&sspn=0.003041,0.005665&ie=UTF8&ll=41.555866,-72.657191&spn=0.003007,0.005665&t=h&z=18&iwloc=addr&om=1)) is aptly named since it's basically a large quad in the middle of the Weslyean campus that the baseball and football teams share.

Susquehanna replaced Amos Alonzo Stagg field with the sparkling Nicholas A. Lopardo Stadium (http://www.susqu.edu/athletics/lopardo.htm) in 2000.  It's one of the nicest Division III stadiums I've ever visited (seen below).

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.susqu.edu%2Fathletics%2Fimages%2Fstadiumaerial.JPG&hash=7f38b63d0f35aff346802e31b7b1246a3cb93c38)


On an unrelated note, Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on June 17, 2007, 06:34:08 PM
Thanks for the photo.  Did Susque move to a different location from Stagg Field?

That is beautiful...

Perhaps we can use Google maps to have a feature...

"Stadia of D3"
;)

You only have 4 left on that list!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on June 17, 2007, 08:56:27 PM
That list (which I have seen before elsewhere)  is a little at apparent variance from the "year built" stadium information in the 2006 NCAA Records Book for Divisions II and III.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 17, 2007, 11:18:35 PM
The new Susquehanna stadium is near, but not on the old field's site.

http://d3football.com/notables/2000/09/19/Susquehanna+to+kick+off+new+stadium
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 18, 2007, 11:16:58 PM
This thread went and got awesome.

It's where all the die-hards/D3 nerds hang out, baby!

I'll be posting on the top 25 thread sometime soon, but be on the lookout for the USA Today College Football Preview on newsstands Monday, June 25 and thereafter. (Guilty of both corporate shilling and self-promotion, since I wrote the article).

Anyway, thought you all might find it interesting that we got bumped up to a full page this year, so even though I wrote for it to be cut, USA Today-style, it looks like the full article, basically, made it.

I'm responsible for everything but the headline and photo ... and wait until you see how much you hate my top 25. (can't leak it, cheapskates, but maybe a certain fella who I consulted with can)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 19, 2007, 12:15:35 AM
I may have sold my stock in Gannett but I wouldn't trump your Top 25. :)

Hope that guide has that '$4.95 label' but '$1.75 barcode' on it. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 19, 2007, 12:35:58 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 19, 2007, 12:15:35 AM
I may have sold my stock in Gannett but I wouldn't trump your Top 25. :)

Hope that guide has that '$4.95 label' but '$1.75 barcode' on it. :)

That's funny.

That also reminds me, I have some stock to sell. Although with the increase in D3 content, we may have to upgrade to a 'strong buy.'

(kids self)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: realistic on June 19, 2007, 08:09:07 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 18, 2007, 11:16:58 PM
This thread went and got awesome.

It's where all the die-hards/D3 nerds hang out, baby!

I'll be posting on the top 25 thread sometime soon, but be on the lookout for the USA Today College Football Preview on newsstands Monday, June 25 and thereafter. (Guilty of both corporate shilling and self-promotion, since I wrote the article).

Anyway, thought you all might find it interesting that we got bumped up to a full page this year, so even though I wrote for it to be cut, USA Today-style, it looks like the full article, basically, made it.

I'm responsible for everything but the headline and photo ... and wait until you see how much you hate my top 25. (can't leak it, cheapskates, but maybe a certain fella who I consulted with can)

some people will always hate it...but at least this one will have some real knowledge to it.  Most that come out this time of the year (Lindys, etc) are final top 25 rehashed from the year before.  Look forward to seeing it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PBR... on June 19, 2007, 11:01:15 AM
in a sad note today Indiana Univ. coach terry hoeppner lost his battle this morning with brain cancer. shame he really seemed to have that program turning around, he was a solid coach formerly of miami, ohio program. always reminds to enjoy everyday as tomorrow is not promised to you.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
Quote from: realistic on June 19, 2007, 08:09:07 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 18, 2007, 11:16:58 PM
This thread went and got awesome.

It's where all the die-hards/D3 nerds hang out, baby!

I'll be posting on the top 25 thread sometime soon, but be on the lookout for the USA Today College Football Preview on newsstands Monday, June 25 and thereafter. (Guilty of both corporate shilling and self-promotion, since I wrote the article).

Anyway, thought you all might find it interesting that we got bumped up to a full page this year, so even though I wrote for it to be cut, USA Today-style, it looks like the full article, basically, made it.

I'm responsible for everything but the headline and photo ... and wait until you see how much you hate my top 25. (can't leak it, cheapskates, but maybe a certain fella who I consulted with can)

some people will always hate it...but at least this one will have some real knowledge to it.  Most that come out this time of the year (Lindys, etc) are final top 25 rehashed from the year before.  Look forward to seeing it.

Yeah, I've thought that for a long time, that they just take the playoff bracket from the year before and make a top 25 out of it.

I take strong pains to avoid that, and I also did Division II's preview, one which I had no clue about and a strong temptation to do that with. But with enough phone calls and research (at least they had a lot of spring football prospectuses with returning starters listed), you can get an idea.

With the D3 one, I consulted with Pat and Gordon, and we tried to determine who had the most back. I think there's still going to be plenty to quibble with ... I demonstrated this triangle to Pat: Mary Hardin-Baylor has practically everyone back, but they lost to Wesley pretty convincingly in the playoffs; Wesley has everyone back but the QB and star FS, but how can you put them ahead of Whitewater, which pummlled them the last two playoffs? But Whitewater lost almost everyone from those teams, plus Berez and Zwiefel.

And I might have thrown a few teams bones at the end of the top 25.

Anyway, if the preseason polls were right, the seasons would be no fun to watch. At least it'll give us something to talk about.

P.S. Terry Hoeppner, I always liked that guy. R.I.P.

P.P.S., with regard to the D3 alumni, I just edited a couple on to R-MC's wikipedia page (Pat, am I allowed to talk about other websites on the board?) ... Brian Partlow coach of Arena League's Austin Wranglers.

Coincidentally, they just dropped to af2 today as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:44:13 AM
And for the record, I have not seen Lindy's preview yet.

Are they the only glossy mag that even bothers to preview us anymore? Street & Smith's used to, but I don't think Athlon ever did. SI dropped its attempts a year or two ago.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on June 20, 2007, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: uPBRmeASAP on June 19, 2007, 11:01:15 AM
in a sad note today Indiana Univ. coach terry hoeppner lost his battle this morning with brain cancer. shame he really seemed to have that program turning around, he was a solid coach formerly of miami, ohio program. always reminds to enjoy everyday as tomorrow is not promised to you.

Agree - football lost one of the good guys there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on June 20, 2007, 01:15:26 PM
K-Mack:  I really appreciate the effort put into your writing on D3.  It definitely shows.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on June 20, 2007, 07:37:43 PM
K-Mack:

I haven't seen anyone post a S&S Top 25 ranking, which usually happens pretty quickly after publication nor have I seen any team touting their ranking on their website.  I did see a mention of a new S&S Division III poll on West Virginia U's website, but they weren't inclined to post it. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
With the D3 one, I consulted with Pat and Gordon, and we tried to determine who had the most back. I think there's still going to be plenty to quibble with ... I demonstrated this triangle to Pat: Mary Hardin-Baylor has practically everyone back, but they lost to Wesley pretty convincingly in the playoffs; Wesley has everyone back but the QB and star FS, but how can you put them ahead of Whitewater, which pummlled them the last two playoffs? But Whitewater lost almost everyone from those teams, plus Berez and Zwiefel.

Got to talk about this comment, Keith.  With all due respect, while the Hawks have lost some significant talent, it sure isn't,"almost everyone."  They lose 3 starters but return the majority of their top defense including 2 of the 3 LB's, ISU transfer Borzick and (AA) Raebel, and all the DB's including a starter that was lost for most of last season to injury.  They will need to shore up the D line with the loss of Kleppe, (irreplacable,)  and Thompson, however.  Big losses on offense but only one from the line and they will still be blocking for (AA) Justin Beaver.  In addition, they lose the QB, one WR and the TE and FB.  But the  FB was lost at the UMHB game last season due to injury.  They also return (AA) kicker Schebler and we all saw at the Stagg what Jordon Well can do on special teams and with the loss of Stanley, I believe we will see a lot more of him at WR. The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials.   Big news regarding transfers and new recruits and some serious talent waiting for their turn has most of the talk around UWW being VERY optomistic.   ;D   ;) 

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on June 21, 2007, 03:03:59 PM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
.....The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials....

Great credentials?  I would have to agree.  A Mount Union grad is now running the offense.   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 04:14:28 PM
Quote from: hscoach on June 21, 2007, 03:03:59 PM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
.....The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials....

Great credentials?  I would have to agree.  A Mount Union grad is now running the offense.   ;D

LOL!  +karma.  I'm sure the guys will try not to hold that against him!!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
With the D3 one, I consulted with Pat and Gordon, and we tried to determine who had the most back. I think there's still going to be plenty to quibble with ... I demonstrated this triangle to Pat: Mary Hardin-Baylor has practically everyone back, but they lost to Wesley pretty convincingly in the playoffs; Wesley has everyone back but the QB and star FS, but how can you put them ahead of Whitewater, which pummlled them the last two playoffs? But Whitewater lost almost everyone from those teams, plus Berez and Zwiefel.

Got to talk about this comment, Keith.  With all due respect, while the Hawks have lost some significant talent, it sure isn't,"almost everyone."  They lose 3 starters but return the majority of their top defense including 2 of the 3 LB's, ISU transfer Borzick and (AA) Raebel, and all the DB's including a starter that was lost for most of last season to injury.  They will need to shore up the D line with the loss of Kleppe, (irreplacable,)  and Thompson, however.  Big losses on offense but only one from the line and they will still be blocking for (AA) Justin Beaver.  In addition, they lose the QB, one WR and the TE and FB.  But the  FB was lost at the UMHB game last season due to injury.  They also return (AA) kicker Schebler and we all saw at the Stagg what Jordon Well can do on special teams and with the loss of Stanley, I believe we will see a lot more of him at WR. The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials.   Big news regarding transfers and new recruits and some serious talent waiting for their turn has most of the talk around UWW being VERY optomistic.   ;D   ;) 



So Schebler and Raebel, both listed as seniors last year, are back in 2007?

Can't wait until these redshirts graduate. What a pain.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 22, 2007, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
With the D3 one, I consulted with Pat and Gordon, and we tried to determine who had the most back. I think there's still going to be plenty to quibble with ... I demonstrated this triangle to Pat: Mary Hardin-Baylor has practically everyone back, but they lost to Wesley pretty convincingly in the playoffs; Wesley has everyone back but the QB and star FS, but how can you put them ahead of Whitewater, which pummlled them the last two playoffs? But Whitewater lost almost everyone from those teams, plus Berez and Zwiefel.

Got to talk about this comment, Keith.  With all due respect, while the Hawks have lost some significant talent, it sure isn't,"almost everyone."  They lose 3 starters but return the majority of their top defense including 2 of the 3 LB's, ISU transfer Borzick and (AA) Raebel, and all the DB's including a starter that was lost for most of last season to injury.  They will need to shore up the D line with the loss of Kleppe, (irreplacable,)  and Thompson, however.  Big losses on offense but only one from the line and they will still be blocking for (AA) Justin Beaver.  In addition, they lose the QB, one WR and the TE and FB.  But the  FB was lost at the UMHB game last season due to injury.  They also return (AA) kicker Schebler and we all saw at the Stagg what Jordon Well can do on special teams and with the loss of Stanley, I believe we will see a lot more of him at WR. The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials.   Big news regarding transfers and new recruits and some serious talent waiting for their turn has most of the talk around UWW being VERY optomistic.   ;D   ;) 



So Schebler and Raebel, both listed as seniors last year, are back in 2007?

Can't wait until these redshirts graduate. What a pain.

Yes, Pat.  Raebel is a part of the last class that the NCAA allowed to red-shirt at the D-3 level in 03 and will play his final season this fall but Schebler was a freshman last year.  Both players are correctly listed on the 06 roster on both Warhawkfootball.com and the UWW's official football web page as a junior and a freshman. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 01:56:08 PM
Guess we can't trust the schools to nominate correctly, then. UW-Whitewater nominated each of these players last year as seniors.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: union89 on June 22, 2007, 03:30:31 PM
Quote from: realistic on June 13, 2007, 12:30:55 PM
Ithaca has Karl Ravech of ESPN, actor David Boreanz, ABC News Anchor David Muir, Disney COE Bob Iger.

Oswego also has Al Roker, Steve Levy and Linda Cohn.

Cortland has Mankind (WWE) as an attendee, not grad I think.


Union has Andy Katz.....excuse me while I vomit a bit in my mouth.
Also Ted 'The Uni-Bomber' Kazinsky's brother is a professor at Union.....more vomit.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 22, 2007, 05:57:28 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 01:56:08 PM
Guess we can't trust the schools to nominate correctly, then. UW-Whitewater nominated each of these players last year as seniors.
That's what I figured happened.   You are right.  Should help with the confusion when the last of the red-shirts go.   Widuch was listed as a freshman on the roster the first year he played for Whitewater after transfering from UW-M and was listed as a senior two years in a row after that!   ;) ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 09:47:21 PM
Quote from: Union89 on June 22, 2007, 03:30:31 PM
Also Ted 'The Uni-Bomber' Kazinsky's brother is a professor at Union.....more vomit.

Why vomit? Isn't that who turned him in? I'd be inclined to give him a medal.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on June 22, 2007, 11:08:29 PM
Pat
Maybe they are taking Masters classes... And it is quite possible the coaching staff didn't know they were coming back.... My son had a medical redshirt and I believe he was the first player to play as a post grad at Wesley. And he hadn't decided to return for his Masters until right before graduation..  author=Pat Coleman link=topic=3800.msg724378#msg724378 date=1182534968]
Guess we can't trust the schools to nominate correctly, then. UW-Whitewater nominated each of these players last year as seniors.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 11:18:39 PM
I doubt the freshman is taking grad classes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on June 22, 2007, 11:44:22 PM
My bad Pat.. I knew I wasted my money on that speed reading course.... :o
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on June 22, 2007, 11:51:19 PM
Ok now you have me wondering..... Does your five years to play four still exist? So if you play say baseball for four years can you still go to grad school and play one year of football??? Or better yet ..If you play in 2007 stay out of school for two years and return in 2009 how much eligibility do you have left??... Yup it's a slow night!!!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on June 23, 2007, 12:18:41 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 22, 2007, 11:51:19 PM
Ok now you have me wondering..... Does your five years to play four still exist? So if you play say baseball for four years can you still go to grad school and play one year of football??? Or better yet ..If you play in 2007 stay out of school for two years and return in 2009 how much eligibility do you have left??... Yup it's a slow night!!!!!

You have 10 semesters to fufill 4 years of eligibility....you can take off semesters if you wanted..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 25, 2007, 08:57:44 PM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
With the D3 one, I consulted with Pat and Gordon, and we tried to determine who had the most back. I think there's still going to be plenty to quibble with ... I demonstrated this triangle to Pat: Mary Hardin-Baylor has practically everyone back, but they lost to Wesley pretty convincingly in the playoffs; Wesley has everyone back but the QB and star FS, but how can you put them ahead of Whitewater, which pummlled them the last two playoffs? But Whitewater lost almost everyone from those teams, plus Berez and Zwiefel.

Got to talk about this comment, Keith.  With all due respect, while the Hawks have lost some significant talent, it sure isn't,"almost everyone."  They lose 3 starters but return the majority of their top defense including 2 of the 3 LB's, ISU transfer Borzick and (AA) Raebel, and all the DB's including a starter that was lost for most of last season to injury.  They will need to shore up the D line with the loss of Kleppe, (irreplacable,)  and Thompson, however.  Big losses on offense but only one from the line and they will still be blocking for (AA) Justin Beaver.  In addition, they lose the QB, one WR and the TE and FB.  But the  FB was lost at the UMHB game last season due to injury.  They also return (AA) kicker Schebler and we all saw at the Stagg what Jordon Well can do on special teams and with the loss of Stanley, I believe we will see a lot more of him at WR. The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials.   Big news regarding transfers and new recruits and some serious talent waiting for their turn has most of the talk around UWW being VERY optomistic.   ;D   ;) 

I've got gone, off the top of my head:

Kleppe
Stanley
Jacobs
Schmitt
Sakellaris
Reuland
Thompson
Berezowitz
Zwiefel

So maybe not everyone (or everyone good), but definitely enough where if you come out of the gate ranking UW-W No. 2 again, you're not respecting how good those guys were. I mean, that's probably five or six of their 10-12 best players last season, based on the games I saw.

I think you could very easily make a case for someone else winning the conference and UW-W falling back from unbeaten, given the transition to a new coach/coordinator (except for Borland), and the transition to a new QB, a new offense, etc. You could even go as far as the La Crosse game being on the road, looking for negatives.

You still have Beaver, you have Jones up to speed 1/3 or 1/2 way through the season, you have a good defense and you have four seniors on the OL. (I looked that up in last year's ATN, I thought it was three)

So, all that said, I think you'll be pleased with where they start the season in the top 25 I did for USA Today.

You'll probably hate who's ahead of them though :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 25, 2007, 10:09:51 PM
Quote from: hscoach on June 20, 2007, 01:15:26 PM
K-Mack:  I really appreciate the effort put into your writing on D3.  It definitely shows.

They like me! They really really like me!

Seriously though ... thanks, I appreciate the compliment. I think I speak for all the guys when I say we think D3 deserves some people who care. And since most of us were in your position once, looking for info on (our) D3 teams and not finding much ... well, that explains why we try so hard.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 AM
OK,
Here's a rough list of games to watch that Pat and Gordon and I came up with when I thought that was going to be a component of the USAT preview. It ended up being taken out, but it functions really well as the GAMES ATN MIGHT GO TO STARTER LIST.

Now is the time to campaign for your team's big matchup. Also, in all seriousness, D3football.com staff does accept kind offers of generosity that will make travelling to your team's game easier. We aren't necessarily looking for donations (your support of Kickoff '07 will do) but advice on the best way to travel/eat/stay/tailgate/catch the game is always appreciated.

IDEAS (games in bold are likely commitments so far)

Sept. 1
UW-La Crosse at Hardin-Simmons
Rowan at Christopher Newport
Gallaudet at St. Vincent (someone's gotta win!)
Lycoming-Ithaca

Sept. 8
Christopher Newport at UMHB
Redlands at Whitworth (blame Pat)

Sept. 15
Hardin-Simmons at Linfield
Rowan at Wilkes (doubleheader with Wesley at Widener Fri. night)

Sept. 22
SJF at Ithaca
(Fri. 21st Widener at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)

Sept. 29
UW-Whitewater at UW-La Crosse
Huntingdon at Wesley

Oct. 6
UMHB at Hardin-Simmons b/w ETBU at McMurry
Trinity (Tex.) at DePauw

Oct. 13

Oct. 20

Oct. 27
UMHB at UW-Whitewater
Ithaca at Springfield
Trinity (Tex.) at Millsaps (second consec. trip to Jackson)

Nov. 3

Nov. 10
Central at Wartburg
Rivalry games

This is a very, very incomplete this. Your (honest) suggestions are appreciated.

Trying to get to St. John's, but not sure which game is the one this year (bethel/st. thomas/st. olaf).

Baldwin-Wallace vs. Capital might be the ODAC game to see; battle for No. 2 and possible Pool C, since No. 1 OAC is looking clearer than ever

Averett @ W&L also made our list, but that's a nice interconference matchup that also has potential to be a dud. At least it's not an overnight stay for me (wifey likes those)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on June 27, 2007, 02:03:09 AM
9/29 BW at John Carroll, 10/20 SJF at Springfield, 11/3 Linfield at Whitworth
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 27, 2007, 07:33:33 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 25, 2007, 08:57:44 PM
I've got gone, off the top of my head:

Kleppe
Stanley
Jacobs
Schmitt
Sakellaris
Reuland
Thompson
Berezowitz
Zwiefel

So maybe not everyone (or everyone good), but definitely enough where if you come out of the gate ranking UW-W No. 2 again, you're not respecting how good those guys were. I mean, that's probably five or six of their 10-12 best players last season, based on the games I saw.

I think you could very easily make a case for someone else winning the conference and UW-W falling back from unbeaten, given the transition to a new coach/coordinator (except for Borland), and the transition to a new QB, a new offense, etc. You could even go as far as the La Crosse game being on the road, looking for negatives.

You still have Beaver, you have Jones up to speed 1/3 or 1/2 way through the season, you have a good defense and you have four seniors on the OL. (I looked that up in last year's ATN, I thought it was three)

So, all that said, I think you'll be pleased with where they start the season in the top 25 I did for USA Today.

You'll probably hate who's ahead of them though :)

Well, when listed by name and not just position......................it is far more depressing!! (You forgot (AA) Widuch!)   ;D
You are right, that is a lot of talent lost.  Just wanted to make the point that the cupboard is far from bare.  I absolutely expected their ranking to drop.  Just a question of how far.
     Despite my having $4.95 plus tax burning a hole in my pocket, I was unable to secure a copy of your Top 25 in the USA Today College Preview.  Looked for it at two drug stores, a conveniece store (no 7-11 around here,) Borders and Barnes and Noble.   :-[  All said they didn't carry it.  So I will have to take your word for it that I will be pleased with where you ranked UWW.  As for who is above them............we only have a problem if it is Wesley, UW-LC, or Coast Guard?  Coast Guard??? ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on June 27, 2007, 08:39:57 AM
until someone else steps up here are the top 3 LL matchups for next year

RPI @ Hobart 9/22
Hobart @ Union 11/3
RPI @ Union 11/10

3 interesting non conference games for LL teams

Springfield @ Union 9/8
Carnegie Mellon @ Hobart 9/15
Alfred @ Hobart 10/27
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on June 27, 2007, 08:57:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 AM
Baldwin-Wallace vs. Capital might be the ODAC game to see; battle for No. 2 and possible Pool C, since No. 1 OAC is looking clearer than ever.

Did BW and Capital get shipped to the South Region? ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Sakman 1111 on June 27, 2007, 09:37:09 AM
Can't get too excited by pre-season polls but have a hard time not having UWW in the number two position. Have to agree with 413 on this one that I can understand a couple of teams being ranked ahead of them but don't think it is right. There is a lot of talent at Whitewater that will get a shot at playing and they are very good so don't put them in the bottom half of the top ten yet. Danny Jones and a couple of key transfers should be a great help. As 413 said placing Wesley,Coast Guard,etc. ahead of the Warhawks would be ridiculous......I understand why some might rank the Johnnies or MHB ahead of the Warhawks but in the long run of the season I believe UWW will handle them both. It does make for interesting conversation but I don't think most realize the amount of talent UWW has amassed the last couple of years.....I believe it will prove out in 2007......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on June 27, 2007, 12:05:06 PM
Sept. 15 Hardin-Simmons @ Linfield would be a great first trip out to McMinnville for you guys!   That should be a great game and should be a pretty good crowd that day too.  I'd skip the Nov. 3 tilt at Whitworth.  That one will be back to business as usual with the cat's avenging their first loss to those slaps in 30 years...not gonna be close.  On the bright side, the game should be decided before halftime and you could get some skiing in before a 7 or 8 O'Clock flight out.  Hope to see you in Mac in September!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: union89 on June 27, 2007, 05:56:23 PM
Quote from: 'gro on June 27, 2007, 08:39:57 AM
until someone else steps up here are the top 3 LL matchups for next year

RPI @ Hobart 9/22
Hobart @ Union 11/3
RPI @ Union 11/10

3 interesting non conference games for LL teams

Springfield @ Union 9/8
Carnegie Mellon @ Hobart 9/15
Alfred @ Hobart 10/27


Union could end up 5-4 this year....could be ugly.....if RPI wins 'Shoozapalooza III', I hope 17 people are at the game.  If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound??
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 27, 2007, 06:29:38 PM
Wait -- RPI doesn't have an interesting non-conference game for next year? Shocker. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on June 27, 2007, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 27, 2007, 06:29:38 PM
Wait -- RPI doesn't have an interesting non-conference game for next year? Shocker. :)

tell me about it. the non conference sked and the fact that they never try to get a 10th game and my other pet peeves.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on June 27, 2007, 08:16:44 PM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 22, 2007, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 22, 2007, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 21, 2007, 09:26:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
With the D3 one, I consulted with Pat and Gordon, and we tried to determine who had the most back. I think there's still going to be plenty to quibble with ... I demonstrated this triangle to Pat: Mary Hardin-Baylor has practically everyone back, but they lost to Wesley pretty convincingly in the playoffs; Wesley has everyone back but the QB and star FS, but how can you put them ahead of Whitewater, which pummlled them the last two playoffs? But Whitewater lost almost everyone from those teams, plus Berez and Zwiefel.

Got to talk about this comment, Keith.  With all due respect, while the Hawks have lost some significant talent, it sure isn't,"almost everyone."  They lose 3 starters but return the majority of their top defense including 2 of the 3 LB's, ISU transfer Borzick and (AA) Raebel, and all the DB's including a starter that was lost for most of last season to injury.  They will need to shore up the D line with the loss of Kleppe, (irreplacable,)  and Thompson, however.  Big losses on offense but only one from the line and they will still be blocking for (AA) Justin Beaver.  In addition, they lose the QB, one WR and the TE and FB.  But the  FB was lost at the UMHB game last season due to injury.  They also return (AA) kicker Schebler and we all saw at the Stagg what Jordon Well can do on special teams and with the loss of Stanley, I believe we will see a lot more of him at WR. The coaching staff will have a new look but they come with some great credentials.   Big news regarding transfers and new recruits and some serious talent waiting for their turn has most of the talk around UWW being VERY optomistic.   ;D   ;) 



So Schebler and Raebel, both listed as seniors last year, are back in 2007?

Can't wait until these redshirts graduate. What a pain.

Yes, Pat.  Raebel is a part of the last class that the NCAA allowed to red-shirt at the D-3 level in 03 and will play his final season this fall but Schebler was a freshman last year.  Both players are correctly listed on the 06 roster on both Warhawkfootball.com and the UWW's official football web page as a junior and a freshman. 

A good example that making D3 preseason rankings based mainly upon what appears to be who is returning can be a risky business. I've enjoyed the efforts & thoughts that many have obviously put forth,.  However, once again, pre-season rankings, whether from the "amateurs" at the professional publications or the "professional" D3 football observers can only scratch the surface because there are so many unknowns that can never be taken into consideration.  I want to start the season already!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on June 27, 2007, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 AM

Trying to get to St. John's, but not sure which game is the one this year (bethel/st. thomas/st. olaf).


Since you're talking about games at Saint John's, I'd suggest St. Olaf on 10/6.  Bethel is an away game this year (11/10 - last regular season game of the year - so might be a good one to add to your list).  The Concordia game on 9/22 should also be a good one, and the Tommies on 10/27 could be as well - and it will at least be a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 27, 2007, 09:18:10 PM
Quote from: BoBo on June 27, 2007, 08:16:44 PM
A good example that making D3 preseason rankings based mainly upon what appears to be who is returning can be a risky business.

Well, we do ask the schools who is returning before we put out our poll.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on June 27, 2007, 09:49:01 PM
You may be the only one.  But, even then, a lot of bad information seems to be released from the schools.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 28, 2007, 01:40:18 AM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 27, 2007, 07:33:33 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 25, 2007, 08:57:44 PM
I've got gone, off the top of my head:

Kleppe
Stanley
Jacobs
Schmitt
Sakellaris
Reuland
Thompson
Berezowitz
Zwiefel

So maybe not everyone (or everyone good), but definitely enough where if you come out of the gate ranking UW-W No. 2 again, you're not respecting how good those guys were. I mean, that's probably five or six of their 10-12 best players last season, based on the games I saw.

I think you could very easily make a case for someone else winning the conference and UW-W falling back from unbeaten, given the transition to a new coach/coordinator (except for Borland), and the transition to a new QB, a new offense, etc. You could even go as far as the La Crosse game being on the road, looking for negatives.

You still have Beaver, you have Jones up to speed 1/3 or 1/2 way through the season, you have a good defense and you have four seniors on the OL. (I looked that up in last year's ATN, I thought it was three)

So, all that said, I think you'll be pleased with where they start the season in the top 25 I did for USA Today.

You'll probably hate who's ahead of them though :)

Well, when listed by name and not just position......................it is far more depressing!! (You forgot (AA) Widuch!)   ;D
You are right, that is a lot of talent lost.  Just wanted to make the point that the cupboard is far from bare.  I absolutely expected their ranking to drop.  Just a question of how far.
     Despite my having $4.95 plus tax burning a hole in my pocket, I was unable to secure a copy of your Top 25 in the USA Today College Preview.  Looked for it at two drug stores, a conveniece store (no 7-11 around here,) Borders and Barnes and Noble.   :-[  All said they didn't carry it.  So I will have to take your word for it that I will be pleased with where you ranked UWW.  As for who is above them............we only have a problem if it is Wesley, UW-LC, or Coast Guard?  Coast Guard??? ;) :D ;D


That's weird, I saw it at The Sev (local code for 7-Eleven) Monday night (the night it was released)

If they carry USA Today and USA Today Sports Weekly, they'd carry this. I'm willing to discuss it, but ONE person out there has to buy it. And send an e-mail to mbambach@usatoday.com saying you really love the Division III coverage, and thank him for expanding from a half-page to a full page this year.  ;)

As far as your other points ... Robb Widuch, D'oh! When you said Raebel and Borzick were back, I guess Mount Union's 4-2-5 formation took over my brain ... because you definitely run/ran a 4-3.

There are definitely a lot of unknowns, too many to make any Top 25 perfect. I have issues with my own, but it's what I settled on.

And I think it's safe to say they serve at least a -- cosmetic is not the right word -- purpose.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 28, 2007, 01:41:59 AM
Quote from: kirasdad on June 27, 2007, 08:57:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 AM
Baldwin-Wallace vs. Capital might be the ODAC game to see; battle for No. 2 and possible Pool C, since No. 1 OAC is looking clearer than ever.

Did BW and Capital get shipped to the South Region? ;)

Um ... at least I got it right the second time

:embarassed shoulder shrug from Fresh Prince opening theme:
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 28, 2007, 01:48:07 AM
Quote from: downtown48 on June 27, 2007, 12:05:06 PM
Sept. 15 Hardin-Simmons @ Linfield would be a great first trip out to McMinnville for you guys!   That should be a great game and should be a pretty good crowd that day too.  I'd skip the Nov. 3 tilt at Whitworth.  That one will be back to business as usual with the cat's avenging their first loss to those slaps in 30 years...not gonna be close.  On the bright side, the game should be decided before halftime and you could get some skiing in before a 7 or 8 O'Clock flight out.  Hope to see you in Mac in September!!

"Those slaps"  ;D

Little-known fact ... I've been trying to get sent to Whitworth for years, since my parents live in the Spokane area (yes I'm from Jersey, yes I grew up in Boston, no you don't have the time it takes to hear my life story) ... I think I missed my big opportunity last November.

We had another great game lined up for that week (Rowan beat Cortland State 14-7 in OT) and I was eager to drive somewhere after several consecutive weeks of flying and not seeing my wife and children.

Going that far for us takes some serious advance planning, and we've rarely been willing to gamble on a game that might be a dud.

That said, McMinnville is required viewing for a true D3 conniesuer (now there's a word I can't spell)

Also, I've been to the Pine Bowl. Late Spring, my sister was graduating from WSU that weekend. Think I even saw Joel Clark throwing some passes to someone. Not sure why I didn't walk up and ask, may have been a fleeting moment or a locked fence I'd have had to ghetto-hop.

Just never been during a game. :guilty:
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 28, 2007, 01:53:04 AM
Quote from: tmerton on June 27, 2007, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 AM

Trying to get to St. John's, but not sure which game is the one this year (bethel/st. thomas/st. olaf).


Since you're talking about games at Saint John's, I'd suggest St. Olaf on 10/6.  Bethel is an away game this year (11/10 - last regular season game of the year - so might be a good one to add to your list).  The Concordia game on 9/22 should also be a good one, and the Tommies on 10/27 could be as well - and it will at least be a lot of fun.

Yeah, oops.

I think we got carried away making the list. Bethel'd be a cool game, but I'll probably try to keep Rivalry Week open for Cortaca Jug (probably missed a great year for that last year, as well as Bethel-SJU. Ah well, you can't be everywhere every week)

St. John's and Linfield in the same year? I'd have to start writing a book!

Tmerton, you and everyone else who posted on this thread today ... +1 karma.

That's not karma-box stuffing, is it?

(gives at will)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on June 28, 2007, 05:52:04 AM
K-mack...I will say one thing about the Pine Bowl, it was usually a good playing surface and the stadium is in a pretty nice setting amongst the trees and dorms.  It was just a rediculous walk from the "locker rooms" to the field...not as bad as at Menlo, but bad.  All in all a cool place to play...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on June 28, 2007, 12:07:36 PM
K-mack,

I can not find the USA Today preview.  None of the pulication outlets carry it.  Even tried a bookstore, Wal-Mart, and the local grocery stores.  I know I don't live in a huge city but it isn't the smallest city in Iowa either.  When is the preseaon preview due out from D3.  Loved reading it last year and am looking forward to reading it this year as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on June 28, 2007, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: downtown48 on June 28, 2007, 05:52:04 AM
K-mack...I will say one thing about the Pine Bowl, it was usually a good playing surface and the stadium is in a pretty nice setting amongst the trees and dorms.  It was just a rediculous walk from the "locker rooms" to the field...not as bad as at Menlo, but bad.  All in all a cool place to play...

Agree that the Pine Bowl is a nice venue but the Catdome is the place to watch small college football in the NW (Yes, I'm slanted).

The HSU-Linfield game should be a fun rematch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 28, 2007, 02:00:13 PM
Quote from: footballfan413 on June 27, 2007, 07:33:33 AM

     Despite my having $4.95 plus tax burning a hole in my pocket, I was unable to secure a copy of your Top 25 in the USA Today College Preview.  Looked for it at two drug stores, a conveniece store (no 7-11 around here,) Borders and Barnes and Noble.   :-[  All said they didn't carry it.  So I will have to take your word for it that I will be pleased with where you ranked UWW.  As for who is above them............we only have a problem if it is Wesley, UW-LC, or Coast Guard?  Coast Guard??? ;) :D ;D


Quote from: DutchFan2004 on June 28, 2007, 12:07:36 PM
K-mack,

I can not find the USA Today preview.  None of the pulication outlets carry it.  Even tried a bookstore, Wal-Mart, and the local grocery stores.  I know I don't live in a huge city but it isn't the smallest city in Iowa either.  When is the preseaon preview due out from D3.  Loved reading it last year and am looking forward to reading it this year as well.

Hey K-Mack,  you really need to talk to someone in the marketing and circulation department of USA Today about this!  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 28, 2007, 03:00:37 PM
They print about one-third of the regular run. Hopefully you guys asking for it at your local outlets will make them realize they are missing out.

Back when I worked there I was on a distribution list that would tell me where it was being sold. But now that I've moved on, can't really help you.

The toll-free customer service number: 1-800-872-1415
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on June 28, 2007, 04:04:59 PM
Thanks Pat,

Just called them and the guy (which will remain nameless) was less than helpful.  He said they don't have a list of retailers other than some large companys (all of which have no outlets here).  If I get to Des Moines I will try Borders but long drive to get a magazine.  He would be more than willing to ship that copy to me but it will be two or three weeks till I get it.  I hope that your preview will be out by then and I would rather spend the money on you than a half a tank of gas and the 4.95 to Borders.  Thanks again for the help.
PS they are losing out.  I would think that the powers that be would be interested in increasing circulation.  If they did a decent job on D3 I would consider a subscription. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 28, 2007, 04:09:04 PM
Wow -- they used to be able to sell those over the phone.

Maybe Keith knows more.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on June 28, 2007, 04:23:17 PM
You can order them on the internet at the USA Today website, not sure how long to get it though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on June 28, 2007, 04:25:18 PM
USA Today (http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=usatoday&BusType=BtoC&Count1=48946559&Count2=966086983&ProductID=14072&Target=products.asp)

(Modified to improve the ease of reading -- Ralph Turner)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on June 28, 2007, 05:20:34 PM
I just ordered one. Costs $2.00 to send it to Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on June 28, 2007, 07:10:31 PM
Quote from: janesvilleflash on June 28, 2007, 05:20:34 PM
I just ordered one. Costs $2.00 to send it to Wisconsin.

Great. So we can look forward to you postings K-Mack's Top 25 soon then?    ;D

Or maybe he will post it himself now.   ;)  He did say.................. 
 
Quote from: K-Mack on June 25, 2007, 08:57:44 PM

That's weird, I saw it at The Sev (local code for 7-Eleven) Monday night (the night it was released)

If they carry USA Today and USA Today Sports Weekly, they'd carry this. I'm willing to discuss it, but ONE person out there has to buy it. And send an e-mail to mbambach@usatoday.com saying you really love the Division III coverage, and thank him for expanding from a half-page to a full page this year.  ;)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on June 28, 2007, 07:14:57 PM
 Pat,

Maybe my last post was not clear.  They did offer to sell it to me over the phone.  The thing he could not guarantee was how long it would take to get here.  I said what one, two, three weeks?  A three week wait seemed hardly worth it.  I have a son that lives close to a borders book store so i will see if he can get one.  Thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on June 28, 2007, 09:01:26 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on June 28, 2007, 04:04:59 PM
Thanks Pat,

Just called them and the guy (which will remain nameless) was less than helpful.  He said they don't have a list of retailers other than some large companys (all of which have no outlets here).  If I get to Des Moines I will try Borders but long drive to get a magazine.  He would be more than willing to ship that copy to me but it will be two or three weeks till I get it.  I hope that your preview will be out by then and I would rather spend the money on you than a half a tank of gas and the 4.95 to Borders.  Thanks again for the help.
PS they are losing out.  I would think that the powers that be would be interested in increasing circulation.  If they did a decent job on D3 I would consider a subscription. 

I found my copy at O'Hare Airport, so anyone flying through Chicago can pick it up there. :D  I am surprised though that Borders doesn't have it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 01, 2007, 10:27:37 PM
Thanks everyone for the details on not being able to find this issue. Will forward to the powers that be if possible.

It's kind of silly that the people who actually want this D3 coverage and are willing to pay for it can't find the issue at bookstores and newsstands.

Will discuss the top 25 on the appropriate thread.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on July 02, 2007, 06:32:42 AM
Ok, so I bought the paper, and emailed Baumback with the requested kudos. Now can we see the 25?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 03, 2007, 01:56:40 AM
Quote from: janesvilleflash on July 02, 2007, 06:32:42 AM
Ok, so I bought the paper, and emailed Baumback with the requested kudos. Now can we see the 25?

Everyone owes you.

Of course, now I can't find it in the system. Maybe it's been purged.

I will post it for real, ASAP.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 04, 2007, 11:24:24 PM
Well, here are features from the issues being promoted online, and all the different covers so any of you still bothering to look for it know what you're looking for:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigeast/2007-07-03-slaton-sw-feature_N.htm

I wouldn't really keep checking back to see if the D3 stuff gets posted. Although I could probably talk someone into that, especially after the issue reaches its shelf life.

I'll post the 25 on the top 25 thread.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on July 04, 2007, 11:34:47 PM
well, there's at least the tiniest of d3 reference connections buried in that slaton story ... since posts are mostly westerners I'm sure they'll notice
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 12:25:50 AM
Quote from: repete on July 04, 2007, 11:34:47 PM
well, there's at least the tiniest of d3 reference connections buried in that slaton story ... since posts are mostly westerners I'm sure they'll notice

Owen Schmitt?

Woo-hoo!

That actually fits on this thread since we were talking famous people with D3 connections not too long ago.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 03:19:05 AM
Hey,
can't remember exactly where I was reading about D3 road trips and a search was fruitless. Was this blog post about the trip from Nashville to Dubuque (http://sportsmediaamerica.blogspot.com/2006/10/division-iii-football-alive-and-well.html) referred to on that thread/Dose post, or is this new? Figuring that it isn't, but just in case.

What I'm actually looking for is media outlets who cover Division III football regularly, in order to find experienced writers to fill the last open slots for Kickoff '07.

If any of you die-hard readers can remember reading about D3 in any publication, let me know if you would. Even if you think we'd already know ... chances are we do, but we might not. I read something in Sheboygan's paper once, and I need an IBFC guy ... so off to look for that.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 03:29:52 AM
Guess that's the one, since Pat has a comment on there.

Boy, if that doesn't remind you of an ATN, I don't what does. It gave me good perspective on what parts to highlight and what parts to leave out next time I do a 'this is how my trip went' Around the Nation.

Anyway, if you missed it when it was posted before, as I apparently did, it's a really good read about a father's trip to see his son's game at Loras vs. Cornell.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on July 05, 2007, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 03:19:05 AM
What I'm actually looking for is media outlets who cover Division III football regularly, in order to find experienced writers to fill the last open slots for Kickoff '07.

If any of you die-hard readers can remember reading about D3 in any publication, let me know if you would. Even if you think we'd already know ... chances are we do, but we might not. I read something in Sheboygan's paper once, and I need an IBFC guy ... so off to look for that.

David Flores covers San Antonio collegiate sports for the San Antonio Express-News. He's done game stories and features on Trinity and Texas Lutheran. (He played one year of football at TLU under Jim Wacker.)

E-mail address: dflores@express-news.net.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on July 05, 2007, 08:59:04 AM
Some years Howard Herman at the Berkshire Eagle in Pittsfield, MA has written preview summaries for regional DIII football teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 05, 2007, 09:20:14 AM
Let him know via e-mail -- let's not post names here.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on July 05, 2007, 09:40:52 AM
Too late for my suggestion now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on July 05, 2007, 10:12:45 AM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on July 05, 2007, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 03:19:05 AM
What I'm actually looking for is media outlets who cover Division III football regularly, in order to find experienced writers to fill the last open slots for Kickoff '07.

If any of you die-hard readers can remember reading about D3 in any publication, let me know if you would. Even if you think we'd already know ... chances are we do, but we might not. I read something in Sheboygan's paper once, and I need an IBFC guy ... so off to look for that.

David Flores covers San Antonio collegiate sports for the San Antonio Express-News. He's done game stories and features on Trinity and Texas Lutheran. (He played one year of football at TLU under Jim Wacker.)

E-mail address: dflores@express-news.net.

You also never know if you call a major newspaper like the Boston Globe or Boston Herald.  I know they always have pretty big sports departments with dozens of interns (good ones too from BU, Harvard, Ithaca!) that might be looking for some field work.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on July 05, 2007, 10:40:44 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 05, 2007, 09:20:14 AM
Let him know via e-mail -- let's not post names here.

I wouldn't have posted a name here had K-Mack requested an e-mail notification instead ....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 05, 2007, 10:43:37 AM
I understand. Just for future users.

For the record, I think a small-town paper that actually covers the team in its territory is likely to have a better choice. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on July 05, 2007, 11:15:34 AM
Each Sunday during football season the Boston Globe already very briefly covers New England DIII football via a one to four sentence summary on each of several (perhaps 4 to 12) games of the immediately prior day, which it believes to be significant and for which it finds it has room. To my knowledge, it does not ordinarily send stringers or other reporters to any of these games but relies on local SIDs for information. Infrequently it will give greater coverage to a "major" New England DIII game. Sometimes it will provide a public interest story in mid-week on a player, a coach or a team.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 12:29:10 PM
Thanks for the suggestions so far. Per Pat's request, I am at Keith@D3football.com.

Also, private message on this board would serve the same purpose.

I am definitely looking for people who you've read before covering the team on a regular basis. I am not looking to cold-call. Although we have had some success picking up random freelancers who have no connection to Division III prior to working with us, I/we feel the quality of work would be better with folks who have some experience covering the conference we're asking them to preview or D3 in general.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on July 05, 2007, 07:50:58 PM
Not sure where to post this but I came accross this....

2008 Pre-Season DIII Consensus Draft Services All-American Team

FIRST TEAM OFFENSE

QB Rob Kramer, 5'10", 215, St. John Fisher
WR Pierre Garcon, 6'1", 205, Mount Union
WR Joe Cline, 5'11", 190, Alma
TE Nolan Swett, 6'5", 220, Colorado College
RB Nate Kmic, 5'9", 190, Mount Union (Jr.)
RB Justin Beaver, 5'9", 200, WI-Whitewater
OT Brennan Fortune, 6'3", 285, St. John Fisher
OG Brandon Bennett, 6'2", 280, Willamette
OL Jordan Purdy, 6'4", 288, Wilkes U.
OG Dan Casper, 6'3", 280, Central College
OT Jeff Cihlar, 6'5", 325, Rockford College
K Connor Pearce, Cal Lutheran
KR Travis Masters, Linfield

SECOND TEAM OFFENSE

QB Josh Vogelbach, 6'0", 185, Guilford (Jr.)
WR Jay Jay Vanderstyne, 6'0", 191, Rochester (NY)
WR Matt Frank, 6'5", 202, Carleton (Jr.)
TE Charles Gryska, 6'5", 255, UMass-Dartmouth
RB R.V. Carroll, 5'10", 185, Oberlin College
RB Matt Bielecki, 6'1", 208, Rochester (NY)
OT Andrew Althous, 6'1", 260, Carnegie Mellon
OG Eric Yuen, 6'2", 295, St. Olaf
OL Eric Safran, 6'3", 290, Mount Union
OG Brady Ramseier, 6'6", 308, WI-Whitewater
OT Steve Wergers, 6'3", 290, Col. of Mt. St. Joseph
K Ryan Graboski, WI-Stevens Pt.
KR Lindy Crea, Harwick (RB)


FIRST TEAM DEFENSE

DE Andy Studebaker, 6'5", 249, Wheaton
DT Don Miller, 6'2", 310, Alfred
DT Andrew Eisentrout, 6'4", 230, Pacific Lutheran
DE Bryan Robinson, 6'3", 207, Wesley
LB Jerrell Freeman, 6'0", 205, Mary Hardin-Baylor
LB Mark Mashburn, 5'10", 195, Dubuque
LB Cody Pierce, 5'10", 194, Buena Vista
LB Jeff Gibbs, 6'0", 200, Principia
CB James Bascon, 5'9", 170, Bridgewater St. (MA) (Jr.)
S Mark Snoddy, 6'0", 185, Washington & Lee
S Harold Green, 6'0", 186, William Patterson
CB Drew Gallaugher, 5'10", 198, Colorado College
P Kevin Sofikiancs, Baldwin-Wallace
PR Joshua Kraemer, Ripon

SECOND TEAM DEFENSE

DE Brian Calderone, 6'2", 225, Case Western Reserve (Jr.)
DT Joe King, 6'5", 235, The Col. of New Jersey
DT Rishard Davis, 6'1", 231, Huntingdon
DE Matt Rugenstein, 6'3", 250, Hope (MI)
LB Eric Dube, 5'10", 200, Dickinson St.
LB Jeremy Winter, 5'10", 225, Carroll (WI) (Jr.)
LB Brett Maloney, 6'2", 230, Grinnell (Jr.)
LB Brock Hall, 6'1", 210, Loras
CB Jonah Wilson, 5'9", 170, Mount Union (Jr.)
S Jonathan Tefft, 6'0", 195, Husson (ME)
S Phil Schroer, 6'2", 175, Nebraska Wesleyan (Jr.)
CB Marcus Harris, 5'9", 170, Millsaps (Jr.)
P Jesse Harms, Coast Guard
PR Jason Jackson, Illinois College 

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on July 05, 2007, 08:28:39 PM
Not to pick on you Upstate but was this a 2007 preseason all american selection. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on July 05, 2007, 08:50:39 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on July 05, 2007, 08:28:39 PM
Not to pick on you Upstate but was this a 2007 preseason all american selection. 

I'd have to say yes, I copied and pasted it from http://condraft.com/all-american-teams/div-iii.php (http://condraft.com/all-american-teams/div-iii.php)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on July 06, 2007, 08:31:32 AM
Endangered Zebras (http://www.reporternews.com/news/2007/jul/06/endangered-zebras/)

If we are having this problem in west Texas, then this must be developing around the country.

Football officials do the job for the love of the game.  There is no amount of money that can make up for the "abuse" that an official may take. The "pay strata" at the top is for the "biggest" games.  If you imagine four hours on site, two hours each way in rush hour or late night traffic and one hour preparation for the game, that is nine hours.

When I was active in our youth soccer association, the penalty for the most egregious sportsmanship violations was for the offending parent to earn their basic officials card and to officiate a full season of games (9 games), usually at the under-8 and under-10 level, to get off probation.  Otherwise that person was prohibited from any attending any soccer matches.

I have wondered about that penalty being employed more widely.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: cawcdad on July 06, 2007, 11:56:52 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on July 06, 2007, 08:31:32 AM
. . . .When I was active in our youth soccer association, the penalty for the most egregious sportsmanship violations was for the offending parent to earn their basic officials card and to officiate a full season of games (9 games), usually at the under-8 and under-10 level, to get off probation.  Otherwise that person was prohibited from any attending any soccer matches.

I have wondered about that penalty being employed more widely.
Sounds like a good plan to me Ralph. I have commented to many a parent / fan that if they do not like the officiating, go get certified and get out on the field or court.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on July 06, 2007, 03:16:26 PM
Wow Ralph,

How current is that article for officials pay?  I got out of it last year as the arthritis in my knees got to be to bad.  I really miss it.  I loved doing the football games.  When I got out a JV freshman game was paying 55-65 a night.  Junior high was paying the same but you did two games a 7th and 8th grade game.  I have only done a handful of varsity games as Friday nights were watching my own boys play.  The pay for varisty was 90-100 and if you did a double header like sophmore jv varsity was like 130-150 a night.  Travel time for varsity was longer but in my area the longest drive for a game was 30 minutes.  I know it is tuff to find people to do it as many would rather scream their displeasure at the zebras then really learn the rules and find out that the refs 99% of the time get it correct.  If they just knew the rules of the game and what rules apply they might not scream in disgust but realize that hey they do know what is going on!!!!!. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 09, 2007, 07:01:33 PM
Ralph,
Always enjoy the ATN thread being the home for random issues only the die-hard die-hards might care about.

That said, I find this very interesting.  ;D

Also want to mention a story I did for last year's Stagg Bowl Game Program on officiating. They definitely have a love and don't deserve half the abuse they take. What they do to stay up on the rules, get , in addition to their full-time jobs, is borderline insane.

I'l see if I can find a version of it and repost, not so much to self-promote, but to add to this discussion.

I think that penalty is a phenomenal idea, BTW

Quote from: Ralph Turner on July 06, 2007, 08:31:32 AM
Endangered Zebras (http://www.reporternews.com/news/2007/jul/06/endangered-zebras/)

If we are having this problem in west Texas, then this must be developing around the country.

Football officials do the job for the love of the game.  There is no amount of money that can make up for the "abuse" that an official may take. The "pay strata" at the top is for the "biggest" games.  If you imagine four hours on site, two hours each way in rush hour or late night traffic and one hour preparation for the game, that is nine hours.

When I was active in our youth soccer association, the penalty for the most egregious sportsmanship violations was for the offending parent to earn their basic officials card and to officiate a full season of games (9 games), usually at the under-8 and under-10 level, to get off probation.  Otherwise that person was prohibited from any attending any soccer matches.

I have wondered about that penalty being employed more widely.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 09, 2007, 07:04:11 PM
Another piece of randomity. I assume this guy was a force in the Aztec Bowl:

(has never watched; is usually busy that day)

QuoteEagles sign Mexican DT Lopez
Philly.com Staff

The Philadelphia Eagles today announced they have signed defensive tackle Mauricio Lopez.

A 27-year-old native of Mexico City , Lopez (6-foot-1, 329 pounds) spent three seasons in NFL Europa, playing with the Cologne Centurions and the Amsterdam Admirals. In 2007, he recorded 9 tackles (6 solo) and one sack for the Centurions.  Lopez recorded three tackles for Cologne in 2006, and appeared in one game with the Admirals in 2005.

Lopez spent three years playing for the Mexican National Team and he played collegiately for Monterrey Tech.

As far as the All-American team, looks solid on first very-quick glance.

Who is Consensus Draft Services and have they actually seen any of these guys play?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 09, 2007, 07:10:46 PM
http://condraft.com/about.php

Meh.

Sounds like CDS has an interesting theory. But compiling rankings from "all the available qualified opinion" out there would seem to work a lot better for Division I-A than III.

I'd love to find a scout or a service that watches D3 games and could speak to the talent differential between conferences and identify potential pro prospects from non-playoff teams.

Ah well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on July 09, 2007, 07:56:27 PM
They (condraft) probably just looked at the NCAA stats and who was returning....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 09, 2007, 08:49:07 PM
Watching former R-MC OC Ed Hodgkiss coach Arena Ball on The Deuce right now. Can't say I've watched much arena ball, although it's like hockey ... awesome in person.

Upstate, that was what I figured about condraft. That explains Joe Cline as an A-A even though Brehm won't be back, etc.

But maybe someone who had seen an Alma game could say "Nope, that guy's a legitimate talent, he made Brehm same as Brehm made him (which is what I sort of assumed, from afar)

Wish I could watch everyone. Maybe when I go full-time I'll request tapes and do the knowledge on everyone in my basement a la Kiper.

Also, I'm thinking, all the reliable sources on D3 still doesn't give you a very wide cross-section of informed opinions.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 09, 2007, 08:59:57 PM
Matt D'Orazio, the QB from Otterbein, is in this game too.

LA Avengers vs. Chicago whosiewhatzits.

(Waits for Pat to post how many times we've had notables on D'Orazio and his Chicago team)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 09, 2007, 09:10:36 PM
D'Orazio's name is on the front page of D3football.com in the lead story this very minute. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on July 09, 2007, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 09, 2007, 09:10:36 PM
D'Orazio's name is on the front page of D3football.com in the lead story this very minute. :)

Man, where was the press when my man Jamie McGourty was tearin up the Areana League for the Rush in the early 2000s!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 10, 2007, 12:45:58 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 09, 2007, 09:10:36 PM
D'Orazio's name is on the front page of D3football.com in the lead story this very minute. :)

::)

Yeah, I read that a week ago when you posted it but I didn't memorize it.

Brett Dietz is in the house though!

(Pictures = committed better to memory?)

You'll also be proud to know I recognized the Rush's Jeremy Unertl (La Crosse) on the sight of his last name, which I might add, is NOT mentioned on the front page.

And anyway, why hasn't it been updated with playoff news? The Rush won like 2 hours ago!

JU ... The press, my friend, was in its infant stages back in 2000.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 01:14:03 AM
Last I checked we weren't arenafootball.com. We spotlight a new guy every once in a while. When the final comes, if D-III'ers play a notable role, we'll mention it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 10, 2007, 01:29:37 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 01:14:03 AM
Last I checked we weren't arenafootball.com. We spotlight a new guy every once in a while. When the final comes, if D-III'ers play a notable role, we'll mention it.

Thanks for playing post police then taking the joking responses seriously.  ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 01:32:12 AM
Yeah -- what I've learned in my years on the boards is that someone will always take the joke responses seriously so I better make sure they have a serious answer if there's any way they could be mistaken.

Otherwise, someone comes on here in a couple days and says, "Hey, that guy's right -- how come they didn't mention our OAC guy when they did a cover story on the kid from the HCAC?"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on July 10, 2007, 06:00:38 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 01:32:12 AM
Yeah -- what I've learned in my years on the boards is that someone will always take the joke responses seriously so I better make sure they have a serious answer if there's any way they could be mistaken.

Otherwise, someone comes on here in a couple days and says, "Hey, that guy's right -- how come they didn't mention our OAC guy when they did a cover story on the kid from the HCAC?"

Yea he was there in 2003 I think, but since the headline on the main page for the last few weeks was about an arena league player I thought Id throw it out there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 10, 2007, 07:51:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 01:32:12 AM
Yeah -- what I've learned in my years on the boards is that someone will always take the joke responses seriously so I better make sure they have a serious answer if there's any way they could be mistaken.

Otherwise, someone comes on here in a couple days and says, "Hey, that guy's right -- how come they didn't mention our OAC guy when they did a cover story on the kid from the HCAC?"

Fair enough. Tone of post is often mistaken on message boards ... I was thinking along the lines of you know my sense of humor, and I know yours, and many people on this thread know both of ours and we theirs, so the post police could scale back patrols here.

But I guess you never know who is reading/lurking/whatever.

Hey, have you checked recently to see if we're arenafootball.com?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on July 10, 2007, 09:58:23 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 10, 2007, 07:51:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 01:32:12 AM
Yeah -- what I've learned in my years on the boards is that someone will always take the joke responses seriously so I better make sure they have a serious answer if there's any way they could be mistaken.

Otherwise, someone comes on here in a couple days and says, "Hey, that guy's right -- how come they didn't mention our OAC guy when they did a cover story on the kid from the HCAC?"

Fair enough. Tone of post is often mistaken on message boards ... I was thinking along the lines of you know my sense of humor, and I know yours, and many people on this thread know both of ours and we theirs, so the post police could scale back patrols here.

But I guess you never know who is reading/lurking/whatever.

Hey, have you checked recently to see if we're arenafootball.com?

I actually went to arenafootball.com and noticed there were more arena news on this website. ( :-\  (is that a sarcastic face?.....or is JU being serious....)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 11:12:14 PM
Heh -- I see D'Orazio is that site's cover boy right now. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tags on July 11, 2007, 09:31:28 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 10, 2007, 11:12:14 PM
Heh -- I see D'Orazio is that site's cover boy right now. :)

+k Pat

The "heh" when beginning your sentences is starting to become your signature :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 12, 2007, 01:17:43 PM
Out of 17,853 posts?  :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on July 13, 2007, 12:55:08 AM
Heh.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on July 13, 2007, 10:01:22 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on July 13, 2007, 12:55:08 AM
Heh.
Heh! That's an original James Brown lyric, he wrote that.  Heh!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 15, 2007, 08:37:53 PM
Good Gawd!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on July 16, 2007, 01:49:38 AM
Mmmmm...squash.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2932885
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on July 16, 2007, 08:46:40 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on July 16, 2007, 01:49:38 AM
Mmmmm...squash.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2932885

Interesting.  But I was always partial to Homer Simpson's "Hmmmm, pot pie".
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: kickerdad on July 16, 2007, 01:11:26 PM
Goodness gracious, great balls of monkey grease...........Sept 1 needs to get here fast, because right now this heat wave has everyone talking crazy.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 16, 2007, 07:02:32 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on July 16, 2007, 01:49:38 AM
Mmmmm...squash.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2932885

I think I read this article once before, except it was about Lake Forest handball.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 23, 2007, 11:56:59 PM
Updated with your suggestions from Page 50 and added some games I've thought of to the original list. Still giving this thought and looking for ideas.

Should probably rename it the ATN "Games to go to" Watch List

Quote from: K-Mack on June 27, 2007, 01:34:12 AM
OK,
Here's a rough list of games to watch that Pat and Gordon and I came up with when I thought that was going to be a component of the USAT preview. It ended up being taken out, but it functions really well as the GAMES ATN MIGHT GO TO STARTER LIST.

Now is the time to campaign for your team's big matchup. Also, in all seriousness, D3football.com staff does accept kind offers of generosity that will make travelling to your team's game easier. We aren't necessarily looking for donations (your support of Kickoff '07 will do) but advice on the best way to travel/eat/stay/tailgate/catch the game is always appreciated.

IDEAS (games in bold are likely commitments so far)

Sept. 1 (Thurs. 4 games, Fri. 6 games)
UW-La Crosse at Hardin-Simmons
Rowan at Christopher Newport
Gallaudet at St. Vincent (someone's gotta win!)
Ithaca at Lycoming
N.C. Wesleyan at Wesley

Sept. 8
Christopher Newport at UMHB
Springfield at Union
Redlands at Whitworth (blame Pat)

Sept. 15
Hardin-Simmons at Linfield
Rowan at Wilkes (doubleheader with Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Carnegie Mellon at Hobart

Sept. 22 (Fri. 21st Widener at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)
SJF at Ithaca
RPI at Hobart

Sept. 29 (Friday the 28th: Montclair St. at TCNJ)
UW-Whitewater at UW-La Crosse
Huntingdon at Wesley
Baldwin-Wallace at John Carroll

Oct. 6 (Oct. 5 TCNJ at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)
UMHB at Hardin-Simmons b/w ETBU at McMurry
Trinity (Tex.) at DePauw
St. Olaf at St. John's
St. Norbert at Monmouth
Wheaton at North Central
Redlands at Occidental
Becker at Gallaudet (see Gallaudet-St. Vincent comment)

Oct. 13

Oct. 20
St. John Fisher at Springfield

Oct. 27
UMHB at UW-Whitewater
St. Thomas at St. John's
Ithaca at Springfield
Trinity (Tex.) at Millsaps (second consec. trip to Jackson)
Alfred at Hobart

Nov. 3
Linfield at Whitworth
Hobart at Union
Monmouth at Knox (rivalry)

Nov. 10
Amherst at Williams
Wabash at DePauw
Cortland State at Ithaca
Hampden-Sydney at Randolph-Macon
RPI at Union (Dutchman's Shoes)
Moravian at Muhlenberg
Cornell at Coe
Franklin at Hanover
Wesleyan at Trinity(?)
also:
Central at Wartburg
St. John's at Bethel
Baldwin-Wallace at Capital
Wilkes at Widener?
W&L at Carnegie-Mellon?
NEFC Title Game

This is still a very incomplete list. Your (honest) suggestions are appreciated.

Always looking for night games (Fri or Sat) that we can package with an afternoon kickoff on a doubleheader trip.

Will eventually do a closer examination for those.

Also, there are some games that look interesting that aren't on this list which could quickly become relevant if both teams play well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on July 24, 2007, 02:45:38 AM
Keith: The 9/8 Sprinfield at Union game occurs at 7:00 while the Endicott at RPI game is scheduled to be played on the same date at 1:00.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on July 24, 2007, 03:19:16 AM
Also on 9/8 Augustana at Baldwin Wallace at 2:00 and Denison at CWRU at 7:00 and on 10/6 Kalamazoo at Tri-State at 1:00 and Olivet at Adrian at 7:00.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on July 24, 2007, 03:36:57 AM
On 9/22 Macalester at Chicago at 1:00 and Hope at Wheaton at 8:00. Those times are probably EDST.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on July 25, 2007, 12:47:48 PM
Other games at Saint John's you might consider:

9/1 - Marietta - first time meeting I believe
9/22 - Concordia - always a good game
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on July 25, 2007, 01:15:39 PM
K-Mack,

Not sure about this but if you wanted to do the two for like you did Coe/Wartburg, Central Cornell last year the only thing that lines up for the Dutch is Simpson and that is Sept 1.  Simpson plays Concordia WI at Simpson and St Thomas is at Pella.  Indianola and Pella are about 30-40 minutes apart depending on your taste for driving and how many officers are on the road.  You can take four lane all the way between the two.  Not the most direct route but 65 mph all the way legally.  Both Kick off times are 1 PM.  You could do two halves like last year.  That is the best I was able to come up with for the Dutch if you want to do a two for. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on July 25, 2007, 01:23:02 PM
I have a good NJAC double header for Oct 13.  TCNJ at WPU at 1:00 and then Kean at MSU at 6:00, both games are homecoming games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on July 25, 2007, 04:31:51 PM
K-Mack that date looks better after seeing the preseason rankings.  You can see on top 10 team and one receiving votes for the top 25 all in one day and see two other teams as well  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 25, 2007, 05:02:34 PM
I appreciate you all doing the dirty work, I swear I was going to look at the schedule as soon as I stop putting out Kickoff fires. +1 karma for everyone.

In response to some of the suggestions, I would definitely try to avoid games kicking off at the same time. Part of it last year on the IIAC trip was the rainy conditions, but I really didn't feel like I got a great feel for the strength of the four teams I saw that day. Part of it was getting to Wartburg-Coe in the third quarter, then going on air with the local station, then basically Wartburg was kneeling and that was it. I got to see the game, but I didn't get to watch it (or the other way around) if that makes any sense.

I'm doing one of those in Abilene this year, courtesy of McMurry, and I've seen partial games before and gotten a lot out of it, but it's definitely preferable to see as many full games as possible.

Of course, as I say all that, I've become intrigued by the possibility of an all-driving tripleheader opening weekend.

The NJAC and Widener have a lot of Friday nights, so the Delaware Valley, especially with it being a day's drive to a lot of other conferences, could get some package-deal attention this year. Kean-Montclair sounds interesting. Chicago's a great place for doubleheader options, Cleveland can work and I think the Michigan idea is interesting. And Upstate NY too.

Thanks again for your help and your interest in my travels.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on July 25, 2007, 05:29:16 PM
You are welcome.  Love to have you come and see Central play any time you can.  Just thought you could see more teams play.  I know games may or may not pan out depending on the given Saturday.  The game may or may not be decided in a short time or take till that final quarter.  It can be a tale of two halves as well.  I know in the Hope game at Central last year it was.  Hope was 13-3 at half and it was a 24-13 final.  Which half would you get to see to form your opinion?  That is a tuff way to form opinions about teams.  I totally understand what you are saying.  Just thought it was a possibility for you to see.  Thanks for all you do for D3.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on July 25, 2007, 07:04:12 PM
K-Mack how about an upstate double header in the rochester area.

September 15th

1:00 Cortland at Brockport: A classic state school battle between juiced up physical education teachers.

7:00 Rochester at St. John Fisher: Some might call this the "Courage Bowl" that benefits Camp Good Days and Special Times, I call it the Battle for the Golden Garbage Plate.  There are usually between 5000-7000 people there at this game and has a great student atmosphere with Yellowjacket fans being a hop skip and a jump away. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on July 25, 2007, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: Upstate on July 25, 2007, 07:04:12 PM
K-Mack how about an upstate double header in the rochester area.

September 15th

1:00 Cortland at Brockport: A classic state school battle between juiced up physical education teachers.

7:00 Rochester at St. John Fisher: Some might call this the "Courage Bowl" that benefits Camp Good Days and Special Times, I call it the Battle for the Golden Garbage Plate.  There are usually between 5000-7000 people there at this game and has a great student atmosphere with Yellowjacket fans being a hop skip and a jump away. 

that's an interesting doubleheader... 2 in-state matchups, 4.5 conferences!

Cortland (NJAC) vs. Brockport (ACFC)
St. John Fisher (E8) vs. Rochester (LL/part time UAA)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on July 25, 2007, 08:22:58 PM
Quote from: 'gro on July 25, 2007, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: Upstate on July 25, 2007, 07:04:12 PM
K-Mack how about an upstate double header in the rochester area.

September 15th

1:00 Cortland at Brockport: A classic state school battle between juiced up physical education teachers.

7:00 Rochester at St. John Fisher: Some might call this the "Courage Bowl" that benefits Camp Good Days and Special Times, I call it the Battle for the Golden Garbage Plate.  There are usually between 5000-7000 people there at this game and has a great student atmosphere with Yellowjacket fans being a hop skip and a jump away. 

that's an interesting doubleheader... 2 in-state matchups, 4.5 conferences!

Cortland (NJAC) vs. Brockport (ACFC)
St. John Fisher (E8) vs. Rochester (LL/part time UAA)

Not only in state match ups, but 3 of the 4 teams are located in Monroe county.  Plus K-Mack can have the pleasure of trying out a garbage plate....

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cse.buffalo.edu%2F%7Eburrows3%2Fgarbage%2520plate.jpg&hash=8e0961f6bfbd7948c2b9941cd8d39be085dc69fb)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on July 25, 2007, 08:30:01 PM
Yes upstate, K-mack deserves a garbage plate, he'll never be the same. Peter King (Sports Ill) had a reader ask him to stop by Nick Tahoe's after he visits bills camp at SJF... he declined for now.

K-Mack, if you are in Rochester, this is a must do. Don't be a wuss like peter king (he of the "healthly high ground" and venti triple mocha lattes).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on July 25, 2007, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: 'gro on July 25, 2007, 08:30:01 PM
Yes upstate, K-mack deserves a garbage plate, he'll never be the same. Peter King (Sports Ill) had a reader ask him to stop by Nick Tahoe's after he visits bills camp at SJF... he declined for now.

K-Mack, if you are in Rochester, this is a must do. Don't be a wuss like peter king (he of the "healthly high ground" and venti triple mocha lattes).

I'll even buy.  It would be right on the way from Brockport to SJF!  We'll stop at a few watering holes in brockport then go to Nicks, of course we'd go to the one downtown and not the suburb area.  You have to experience the ghetto setting to totally encompass the plate. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 26, 2007, 02:11:38 AM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on July 25, 2007, 05:29:16 PM
You are welcome.  Love to have you come and see Central play any time you can.  Just thought you could see more teams play.  I know games may or may not pan out depending on the given Saturday.  The game may or may not be decided in a short time or take till that final quarter.  It can be a tale of two halves as well.  I know in the Hope game at Central last year it was.  Hope was 13-3 at half and it was a 24-13 final.  Which half would you get to see to form your opinion?  That is a tuff way to form opinions about teams.  I totally understand what you are saying.  Just thought it was a possibility for you to see.  Thanks for all you do for D3.

Hey, thanks for the input ... Hope/Central is a good example of what relying on a half can do.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 26, 2007, 02:28:51 AM
Quote from: Upstate on July 25, 2007, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: 'gro on July 25, 2007, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: Upstate on July 25, 2007, 08:22:58 PM
Quote from: 'gro on July 25, 2007, 08:16:29 PM
Quote from: Upstate on July 25, 2007, 07:04:12 PM
K-Mack how about an upstate double header in the rochester area.

September 15th

1:00 Cortland at Brockport: A classic state school battle between juiced up physical education teachers.

7:00 Rochester at St. John Fisher: Some might call this the "Courage Bowl" that benefits Camp Good Days and Special Times, I call it the Battle for the Golden Garbage Plate.  There are usually between 5000-7000 people there at this game and has a great student atmosphere with Yellowjacket fans being a hop skip and a jump away. 

that's an interesting doubleheader... 2 in-state matchups, 4.5 conferences!

Cortland (NJAC) vs. Brockport (ACFC)
St. John Fisher (E8) vs. Rochester (LL/part time UAA)

Not only in state match ups, but 3 of the 4 teams are located in Monroe county.  Plus K-Mack can have the pleasure of trying out a garbage plate...

Yes upstate, K-mack deserves a garbage plate, he'll never be the same. Peter King (Sports Ill) had a reader ask him to stop by Nick Tahoe's after he visits bills camp at SJF... he declined for now.

K-Mack, if you are in Rochester, this is a must do. Don't be a wuss like peter king (he of the "healthly high ground" and venti triple mocha lattes).

I'll even buy.  It would be right on the way from Brockport to SJF!  We'll stop at a few watering holes in brockport then go to Nicks, of course we'd go to the one downtown and not the suburb area.  You have to experience the ghetto setting to totally encompass the plate. 

I thought Wesley @ Widener on Friday night and Rowan @ Wilkes the next day was a no-brainer for that weekend, but I like this suggestion a lot. And not just because there's food involved!

Would there really be enough time to stop on a drive from Cortland to Rochester? Duh, of course, the games are at Brockport & SJF. (Note to self: slow down and read)

Wow, almost enough time to bust outta Wilkes at 4-5 p.m. and see an NY game somewhere.

I'll keep this one in mind, if not for that weekend, perhaps another with SJF, Rochester and Brockport all being relevant and close by. Although the night kickoffs are hard to come by.

How can I turn down a Garbage Plate?

I'll have you know, for the record, that K-Mack (required LL third-person reference to self) spent his younger days in the projects outside of Boston and in South Jersey, home of the knockoff Philly cheesesteak and 24-hour diner serving breakfast all night for $3.65, with scrapple.

I've been training my whole life to eat a Garbage Plate in a ghetto setting.

Healthy High Ground ... ha! I mean, I am trying to get back to looking like, if not a free safety, at least an outside linebacker of some sort. I was asked more than once if I'd played defensive end. Kinda drives home the ol' 'you ain't what you used to be' point.

P.S., only here would you have to clarify which publication that Peter King fella writes for. I love D3football.com.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Superfoot Wallace on July 26, 2007, 03:19:46 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 26, 2007, 02:28:51 AM
I've been training my whole life to eat a Garbage Plate in a ghetto setting.

Healthy High Ground ... ha! I mean, I am trying to get back to looking like, if not a free safety, at least an outside linebacker of some sort. I was asked more than once if I'd played defensive end. Kinda drives home the ol' 'you ain't what you used to be' point.


While K Mack is trying to look like the svelt of the front seven, Macleod has managed to get 2hundo anda nine ought five plus a debatable 1 and 7/8  to 2 anda quad clips stuck on his/her chest.

Take my hand off the ground dagnabit!!!

signed,
Ted Arcidi
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on July 26, 2007, 07:54:10 AM
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Scrapple.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on July 26, 2007, 06:12:27 PM
if anyone cares (probably not, but what the heck, here goes!), i've posted a pre-season preview for Hobart on the Liberty League board (page 1717).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: union89 on July 26, 2007, 06:27:14 PM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on July 26, 2007, 06:12:27 PM
if anyone cares (probably not, but what the heck, here goes!), i've posted a pre-season preview for Hobart on the Liberty League board (page 1717).


Great read from TGP if you are willing to enter the ghetto which is LLPP.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 26, 2007, 11:35:04 PM
I'll pack my gat.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on July 28, 2007, 11:39:44 PM
Not sure if this belongs here, but Nation and USA are synomonous, right?

Anyone watch the Team USA-Japan IFAF game? 

TGP Tivoed it - yes this is now an actual word - while at the beach with the wife and kids.

Fun exhibition game that must have been a great experience for the kids from the US.  To get to play - in many cases - their last organized game in Japan of all places??!?

Props to #28 Doug Blakowski from Hobart - huge 3rd down pick ups in several spots 9 (wished Coach would have given him a TD carry after Doug set up Team USAs 2nd TD).  #82 from Williams was also very strong as a possession style WR. 

Don't know about the rest of the viewers but USA's QB Austin was very shaky at times.  TGP will give him the benefit of the doubt in that he probably had to learn the offense for this tournament as he went along. 

Although Team Japan probably should have won the game, the resilience and fight from the US to too tough to overcome.  Great effort by all and great to see several D3 all stars get one more chance for a day in the spotlight.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 30, 2007, 10:47:11 PM
I definitely liked how they mixed the D3 guys in, and they played real roles.

Have not seen the game though. Was a little surprised by the score given the previous ones, but Japan and Germany seem like the only nations outside of North America who are interested in being good at American football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on July 31, 2007, 01:15:26 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 30, 2007, 10:47:11 PM
I definitely liked how they mixed the D3 guys in, and they played real roles.

Have not seen the game though. Was a little surprised by the score given the previous ones, but Japan and Germany seem like the only nations outside of North America who are interested in being good at American football.

Bad weather and turnovers had a big impact on the game (and kept the score low). 

Both teams struggled with turnovers - I think the US had 2 or 3 (1 or 2 fumbles and 1 INT) and Japan had 2 (INT and fumble).  Not to mention Japan missing 2 FGs (1 blocked, 1 missed).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 31, 2007, 02:34:12 AM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on July 31, 2007, 01:15:26 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 30, 2007, 10:47:11 PM
I definitely liked how they mixed the D3 guys in, and they played real roles.

Have not seen the game though. Was a little surprised by the score given the previous ones, but Japan and Germany seem like the only nations outside of North America who are interested in being good at American football.

Bad weather and turnovers had a big impact on the game (and kept the score low). 

Both teams struggled with turnovers - I think the US had 2 or 3 (1 or 2 fumbles and 1 INT) and Japan had 2 (INT and fumble).  Not to mention Japan missing 2 FGs (1 blocked, 1 missed).

As you mentioned, exhibitions are hard to play in.

I played one of those paid all-star games, and it just wasn't the same as "real" football. Little team chemistry or passion. Lotta guys flying around, and I played with a bunch of fun guys to be around, but ...

I also played a season of semi-pro, which is basically somewhere between D3 football and a season of exhibitions. Same thing, lots of talent, not quite as well organized or complicated. I played a playoff game at tight end with the tackle explaining to me the blocking assignments after we broke each huddle. And I was good! :o Which was a cool experience, but also something that no way, no how would've happened in a D3 game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 06, 2007, 04:26:11 PM
OK, officially renaming this the ATN Games to Attend Watch List. Nothing official about it, just looking for suggestions and travel ideas from the die-hards. All suggestions appreciated; last discussed at the bottom of page 55, and before that on Page 50, if you care for more detail:

>> Now is the time to campaign for your team's big matchup. Also, in all seriousness, D3football.com staff does accept kind offers of generosity that will make travelling to your team's game easier. We aren't necessarily looking for donations (your support of Kickoff '07 will do) but advice on the best way to travel/eat/stay/tailgate/catch the game is always appreciated.

IDEAS (games in bold are likely commitments so far)

Sept. 1
Thu./Fri./Sat. Tripleheader options: Moravian at Susquehanna / USMMA at Kean / NCW at Wesley
or Ursinus at LaSalle, Muhlenberg at TCNJ and Rowan at CNU.

UW-La Crosse at Hardin-Simmons
Rowan at Christopher Newport
Gallaudet at St. Vincent (someone's gotta win!)
Ithaca at Lycoming
N.C. Wesleyan at Wesley

Sept. 8
Christopher Newport at UMHB
Package: RPI at Endicott, 1 p.m.; Springfield at Union, 7 p.m.
Package: Augustana at Baldwin-Wallace, 2 p.m.; Denison at Case Western 7 p.m.

Sept. 15
Hardin-Simmons at Linfield
Package: Rowan at Wilkes (doubleheader with Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.
Carnegie Mellon at Hobart

Sept. 22 (Fri. 21st Widener at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)
SJF at Ithaca
RPI at Hobart
Package: Macalester at Chicago 12 or 1, Hope at Wheaton 7 or 8

Sept. 29 (Friday the 28th: Montclair St. at TCNJ)
UW-Whitewater at UW-La Crosse
Huntingdon at Wesley
Baldwin-Wallace at John Carroll

Oct. 6 (Oct. 5 TCNJ at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)
UMHB at Hardin-Simmons b/w ETBU at McMurry
Trinity (Tex.) at DePauw
St. Olaf at St. John's
St. Norbert at Monmouth
Wheaton at North Central
Redlands at Occidental
Becker at Gallaudet (see Gallaudet-St. Vincent comment)
Package: Kalamazoo at Tri-State, 1 p.m., Olivet at Adrian, 7 p.m.

Oct. 13
Package: TCNJ @ William Paterson, 1 p.m.; Kean at Montclair State, 6 p.m.
Franklin at Mt. St. Joseph

Oct. 20
St. John Fisher at Springfield

Oct. 27
UMHB at UW-Whitewater
St. Thomas at St. John's
Ithaca at Springfield
Trinity (Tex.) at Millsaps (second consec. trip to Jackson)
Alfred at Hobart

Nov. 3
Linfield at Whitworth
Hobart at Union
Monmouth at Knox (rivalry)

Nov. 10
Amherst at Williams
Wabash at DePauw
Cortland State at Ithaca
Hampden-Sydney at Randolph-Macon
RPI at Union (Dutchman's Shoes)
Moravian at Muhlenberg
Cornell at Coe
Franklin at Hanover
Wesleyan at Trinity(?)
also:
Central at Wartburg
St. John's at Bethel
Baldwin-Wallace at Capital
Wilkes at Widener?
W&L at Carnegie-Mellon?
NEFC Title Game

I appreciate everyone's suggestions so far, even if they don't end up being the featured game of the week, we might at least be able to get a regional guy in town, or wish we woulda went :) Pat and I travel separately sometimes too, and there are times when we can't get there but we can pick up the broadcast ... if you haven't listened to fourth quarters from McMinnville to Springfield on a Saturday ... it can be a fun way to geek out.

As noted before, always looking for night games (Fri or Sat) that we can package with an afternoon kickoff on a doubleheader trip.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on August 06, 2007, 05:15:29 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 06, 2007, 04:26:11 PM
OK, officially renaming this the ATN Games to Attend Watch List. Nothing official about it, just looking for suggestions and travel ideas from the die-hards. All suggestions appreciated; last discussed at the bottom of page 55, and before that on Page 50, if you care for more detail:

>> Now is the time to campaign for your team's big matchup. Also, in all seriousness, D3football.com staff does accept kind offers of generosity that will make travelling to your team's game easier. We aren't necessarily looking for donations (your support of Kickoff '07 will do) but advice on the best way to travel/eat/stay/tailgate/catch the game is always appreciated.

IDEAS (games in bold are likely commitments so far)

Sept. 1
Thu./Fri./Sat. Tripleheader options: Moravian at Susquehanna / USMMA at Kean / NCW at Wesley or Ursinus at LaSalle, Muhlenberg at TCNJ and Rowan at CNU.

UW-La Crosse at Hardin-Simmons
Rowan at Christopher Newport
Gallaudet at St. Vincent (someone's gotta win!)
Ithaca at Lycoming
N.C. Wesleyan at Wesley

Sept. 8
Christopher Newport at UMHB
Package: RPI at Endicott, 1 p.m.; Springfield at Union, 7 p.m.
Package: Augustana at Baldwin-Wallace, 2 p.m.; Denison at Case Western 7 p.m.

Sept. 15
Hardin-Simmons at Linfield
Package: Rowan at Wilkes (doubleheader with Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.
Carnegie Mellon at Hobart

Sept. 22 (Fri. 21st Widener at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)
SJF at Ithaca
RPI at Hobart
Package: Macalester at Chicago 12 or 1, Hope at Wheaton 7 or 8

Sept. 29 (Friday the 28th: Montclair St. at TCNJ)
UW-Whitewater at UW-La Crosse
Huntingdon at Wesley
Baldwin-Wallace at John Carroll

Oct. 6 (Oct. 5 TCNJ at Rowan, back-to-back Fridays)
UMHB at Hardin-Simmons b/w ETBU at McMurry
Trinity (Tex.) at DePauw
St. Olaf at St. John's
St. Norbert at Monmouth
Wheaton at North Central
Redlands at Occidental
Becker at Gallaudet (see Gallaudet-St. Vincent comment)
Package: Kalamazoo at Tri-State, 1 p.m., Olivet at Adrian, 7 p.m.

Oct. 13
Package: TCNJ @ William Paterson, 1 p.m.; Kean at Montclair State, 6 p.m.
Franklin at Mt. St. Joseph

Oct. 20
St. John Fisher at Springfield

Oct. 27
UMHB at UW-Whitewater
St. Thomas at St. John's
Ithaca at Springfield
Trinity (Tex.) at Millsaps (second consec. trip to Jackson)
Alfred at Hobart

Nov. 3
Linfield at Whitworth
Hobart at Union
Monmouth at Knox (rivalry)

Nov. 10
Amherst at Williams
Wabash at DePauw
Cortland State at Ithaca
Hampden-Sydney at Randolph-Macon
RPI at Union (Dutchman's Shoes)
Moravian at Muhlenberg
Cornell at Coe
Franklin at Hanover
Wesleyan at Trinity(?)
also:
Central at Wartburg
St. John's at Bethel
Baldwin-Wallace at Capital
Wilkes at Widener?
W&L at Carnegie-Mellon?
NEFC Title Game

I appreciate everyone's suggestions so far, even if they don't end up being the featured game of the week, we might at least be able to get a regional guy in town, or wish we woulda went :) Pat and I travel separately sometimes too, and there are times when we can't get there but we can pick up the broadcast ... if you haven't listened to fourth quarters from McMinnville to Springfield on a Saturday ... it can be a fun way to geek out.

As noted before, always looking for night games (Fri or Sat) that we can package with an afternoon kickoff on a doubleheader trip.
[/quote]

TGP likes seeing Hobart mentioned several times on K-Mack's list.  Realistically, though - depending on where you and Pat are based - getting up to Geneva can be a long haul.

There are a lot of cheap accomodations in town and nearby though - so it's definitely worth the trip.  Hard to beat the scenery of the finger lakes during the fall.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 06, 2007, 10:28:21 PM
A bold line for Oct. 13, as well:

Augustana at Wheaton, 6 p.m. CT, with possibles North Central at Elmhurst and Aurora at Benedictine at 1 p.m.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on August 06, 2007, 10:49:59 PM
If you don't make it down to the Virginia coast earlier in the year, the next best game there will be:

N.C. Wesleyan at CNU on Oct. 27. Likely conference championship -- but has other things going for it (payback for CNU, chance to break the Pomoco hold on the USA South, great offense vs. great defense, etc.)

It's one I'd love to cover, but I have another commitment that day.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 06, 2007, 11:46:00 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 06, 2007, 10:28:21 PM
A bold line for Oct. 13, as well:

Augustana at Wheaton, 6 p.m. CT, with possibles North Central at Elmhurst and Aurora at Benedictine at 1 p.m.

Oh yeah, that one's booked. I really wanted to see the HCAC game too.

For every 1-2 games I see, there's 100+ I miss. Such is the D3 life.

(gets over it)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on August 07, 2007, 12:26:21 PM
Poor Steve Spurrier, the University of SC won't let just anyone in who meets minimum NCAA standards.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2962823
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on August 07, 2007, 06:31:09 PM
Well, to be honest, the university did kind of allude that these kids would be admitted. But I have no love lost for coaches who want to bend admissions rules.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on August 07, 2007, 07:09:06 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 06, 2007, 04:26:11 PM
Sept. 15
Hardin-Simmons at Linfield
Package: Rowan at Wilkes (doubleheader with Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.
Carnegie Mellon at Hobart


As an East Region guy I think that Rochester area double dip is the way to go.  The venues are about 25 miles away, you'd get the pleasure of eating a garbage plate, the two games cover 4 conferences (E8, LL, NJAC, ACFC) and your admission fee for the night game would go to a good cause as the Courage Bowl donates the money to Camp Good Days and Special Times. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 08, 2007, 02:32:50 AM
For the die-hards who often give good insight on the football boards but never make it over to general topics, I'm asking for your help on Page 4 of this thread:

Parents with children looking to play in D3  (http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=4015.45)

Thanks for your help, as always. Liberty League, I put you guys on blast, so you better come through with the insight.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on August 08, 2007, 04:03:43 PM
To the parent of the son looking for school and play football.  My advice is to pick a school with the reputation that will get the student into med school.  Sounds like your son will have academic success where ever he attends.  I know from experience with this as one of my sons is a second year med student at DMU in Des Moines.  The school is the most important choice IMHO to get them into med school.  Central, Wartburg, Coe, Luther all have good reputations for preparing their students to get into med school.  If you like more that one school then look at the football program that fits the best for you son.  Keep the eye on the goal getting accepted to med school.  That is the most important thing IMHO.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FootballFanatic on August 08, 2007, 05:24:20 PM
The NESC scools are also good along with JH, Tufts.
::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on August 08, 2007, 06:53:15 PM
( Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.

Now that could make a triple header especially for you K-mack , and it still gives you just one stayover nite..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 08, 2007, 11:49:37 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on August 08, 2007, 06:53:15 PM
( Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.

Now that could make a triple header especially for you K-mack , and it still gives you just one stayover nite..

I had briefly considered that, although getting from West Chester to Ro-chester by car in that window of time would not be very fun.

Both package plans may be moot as McMinnville is being discussed for that weekend. But maybe our Around the East homies could pick it up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 08, 2007, 11:50:36 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on August 08, 2007, 04:03:43 PM
To the parent of the son looking for school and play football.  My advice is to pick a school with the reputation that will get the student into med school.  Sounds like your son will have academic success where ever he attends.  I know from experience with this as one of my sons is a second year med student at DMU in Des Moines.  The school is the most important choice IMHO to get them into med school.  Central, Wartburg, Coe, Luther all have good reputations for preparing their students to get into med school.  If you like more that one school then look at the football program that fits the best for you son.  Keep the eye on the goal getting accepted to med school.  That is the most important thing IMHO.

Would probably be better if you followed the link and shared your opinions on that thread.  ;)

Just mentioning it here because I know some people, myself included, don't make it to the non-football boards very often.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 09, 2007, 12:23:51 AM
Didn't know if conversation surrounding this one would justify its own thread, but thought I had to mention it and at least save my "research" online somewhere.

Per our own Kickoff writers and the Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070803/SPORTS08/708030369/1056), Olivet apparently has a freshman who has served more than one tour of duty in Iraq.

And while the natural inclination is to not just tip the hat to the fella, but to want to write about it, I'm usually torn when I hear about a player who's served, because in Division III, it's not the first time we've heard of such a case.

Off the top of my head, I recall:

- Greg Washington (2003-04?, East Texas Baptist) had served (one D3football.com notable here (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2003/12))

- a Westfield State captain was injured on duty in Iraq (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2006/04) in '06

- a Ripon linebacker served in Iraq (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20051021/ai_n15721143)

- Mark Simon wrote about a guy who had served. I thought he was from Norwich, turns out he was from Delaware Valley and served in Kosovo (http://www.d3football.com/features.php?feature=72)

- and there was a player, Schussler, at St. Norbert last year who had been in Iraq.

Division III also features several service-related schools (U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, Coast Guard Academy, Norwich, SUNY-Maritime, Mass. Maritime Academy, Maine Maritime Academy) which likely feature some players or ex-players with ties to being in service overseas.

All of that is not to say that all Iraq/active duty stories are the same, because they aren't. Every one of those guys has done something interesting, if not very important.

The question is when, if ever, does it become not news anymore?

Should we always write about it out of respect for their service? Should we find the unique angles and feature it then?

I realize we're the journalists and we get paid to make those calls, but I guess it can't hurt to ask.

(sure I forgot some too, feel free to list on this thread)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on August 09, 2007, 08:48:58 AM
I hope that what these young men, (and women,) sacrifice in the service of our country NEVER becomes old news!  Giving them recognition and gratitude is an important lesson learned from Vietnam that this country should never forget.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on August 09, 2007, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 08, 2007, 11:49:37 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on August 08, 2007, 06:53:15 PM
( Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.

Now that could make a triple header especially for you K-mack , and it still gives you just one stayover nite..

I had briefly considered that, although getting from West Chester to Ro-chester by car in that window of time would not be very fun.

Both package plans may be moot as McMinnville is being discussed for that weekend. But maybe our Around the East homies could pick it up.

Garbage plates vs Oregon?

Its a no brainer K-Mack, do the right thing!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on August 09, 2007, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: Upstate on August 09, 2007, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 08, 2007, 11:49:37 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on August 08, 2007, 06:53:15 PM
( Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.

Now that could make a triple header especially for you K-mack , and it still gives you just one stayover nite..

I had briefly considered that, although getting from West Chester to Ro-chester by car in that window of time would not be very fun.

Both package plans may be moot as McMinnville is being discussed for that weekend. But maybe our Around the East homies could pick it up.

Garbage plates vs Oregon?

Its a no brainer K-Mack, do the right thing!
It is a voice of maturity that is asking you to do the right thing.  You know that atherosclerotic disease is the #1 killer of American men.  I would presume that you have a family history that may include hypertension, diabetes and elevated  serum cholesterol levels.  The garbage plate is probably the last thing that your cardioloigst will recommend.

Do it for your family.  Avoid the garbage plate, and go to McMinnville where the air is fresh and clean. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on August 09, 2007, 06:10:09 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 09, 2007, 12:23:51 AM
Didn't know if conversation surrounding this one would justify its own thread, but thought I had to mention it and at least save my "research" online somewhere.

Per our own Kickoff writers and the Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070803/SPORTS08/708030369/1056), Olivet apparently has a freshman who has served more than one tour of duty in Iraq.

And while the natural inclination is to not just tip the hat to the fella, but to want to write about it, I'm usually torn when I hear about a player who's served, because in Division III, it's not the first time we've heard of such a case.

Off the top of my head, I recall:

- Greg Washington (2003-04?, East Texas Baptist) had served (one D3football.com notable here (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2003/12))

- a Westfield State captain was injured on duty in Iraq (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2006/04) in '06

- a Ripon linebacker served in Iraq (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20051021/ai_n15721143)

- Mark Simon wrote about a guy who had served. I thought he was from Norwich, turns out he was from Delaware Valley and served in Kosovo (http://www.d3football.com/features.php?feature=72)

- and there was a player, Schussler, at St. Norbert last year who had been in Iraq.

Division III also features several service-related schools (U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, Coast Guard Academy, Norwich, SUNY-Maritime, Mass. Maritime Academy, Maine Maritime Academy) which likely feature some players or ex-players with ties to being in service overseas.

All of that is not to say that all Iraq/active duty stories are the same, because they aren't. Every one of those guys has done something interesting, if not very important.

The question is when, if ever, does it become not news anymore?

Should we always write about it out of respect for their service? Should we find the unique angles and feature it then?

I realize we're the journalists and we get paid to make those calls, but I guess it can't hurt to ask.

(sure I forgot some too, feel free to list on this thread)

K-Mack

There can never be enough or too much  press for our service personal! Can it be
repetative, sometimes sure, but more than not it shows those people that no matter what our political position is on this "CONFLICT" we are behind our troops.  Living through the Viet Nam "Conflict"( No I didn't go to Nam) and seeing what our troops went through coming home was a CRIME. Will some of the stories be missed, sure. But until there are no more soldiers in harms way it's always a story
   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 10, 2007, 01:18:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on August 09, 2007, 10:42:47 AM
Quote from: Upstate on August 09, 2007, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 08, 2007, 11:49:37 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on August 08, 2007, 06:53:15 PM
( Wesley at Widener Fri. night)
Package: Cortland at Brockport, 1 p.m.; Rochester at St. John Fisher, 7 p.m.

Now that could make a triple header especially for you K-mack , and it still gives you just one stayover nite..

I had briefly considered that, although getting from West Chester to Ro-chester by car in that window of time would not be very fun.

Both package plans may be moot as McMinnville is being discussed for that weekend. But maybe our Around the East homies could pick it up.

Garbage plates vs Oregon?

Its a no brainer K-Mack, do the right thing!
It is a voice of maturity that is asking you to do the right thing.  You know that atherosclerotic disease is the #1 killer of American men.  I would presume that you have a family history that may include hypertension, diabetes and elevated  serum cholesterol levels.  The garbage plate is probably the last thing that your cardioloigst will recommend.

Do it for your family.  Avoid the garbage plate, and go to McMinnville where the air is fresh and clean. ;)

Oh man, this is getting good.

Upstate, I believe, offered to pick up the tab at Nick's and anywhere in between Game 1 and the nightcap.

Linfield & Hardin-Simmons fans, what are you gonna do?

(doesn't really accept bribes, but it can't hurt to fantasize)

We also got an awesome Minnesota idea for the 15th and advice to book a room now for UW-Whitewater at UW-La Crosse, as Oktoberfest fills the streets and the available hotel rooms in NW Wisconsin at that weekend (Sept. 29)

Will share those e-mails later.

Kickoff, my friends, will soon be all-consuming ... just as soon as I get this little thing called my wife's birthday out of the way this weekend. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on August 10, 2007, 12:08:51 PM
K-Mack,

You've watched a game at a SCIAC school but not at a NWC school?  I think you need to complete the deal and come out West to the Catdome.  A September Saturday afternoon in McMinnville is a nice way to spend a day.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 10, 2007, 01:13:24 PM
K-Mack:

As I can attest, the Linfield experience is one worth having.  You'll enjoy the visit, the people and the game.  That's not a knock on a trip to Rochester, just an informal advocacy to head out there at some point.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on August 10, 2007, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on August 10, 2007, 01:13:24 PM
K-Mack:

As I can attest, the Linfield experience is one worth having.  You'll enjoy the visit, the people and the game.  That's not a knock on a trip to Rochester, just an informal advocacy to head out there at some point.

BOOOO!

;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: realistic on August 10, 2007, 03:53:02 PM
Wow -- OK.  While I share Upstate's passion for East Football and Garbage Plates I do have to agree that a trip to McMinnville is something not to be missed.  I was lucky enough to be out there for John's 400th.  That being said I would lobby for hitting NY for the 9/22 Ithaca-SJF meeting.  September is awesome in Ithaca and while Cortaca is a must see....you'll be a lot warmer in September.

Always appreciate the stories on Vet's K-Mack.  Ithaca had a Senior in 1998 named Troy Canada who returned kicks and was a receiver who was in the 1st Gulf War.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on August 10, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
Quote from: realistic on August 10, 2007, 03:53:02 PM
Wow -- OK.  While I share Upstate's passion for East Football and Garbage Plates I do have to agree that a trip to McMinnville is something not to be missed.  I was lucky enough to be out there for John's 400th.  That being said I would lobby for hitting NY for the 9/22 Ithaca-SJF meeting.  September is awesome in Ithaca and while Cortaca is a must see....you'll be a lot warmer in September.

Always appreciate the stories on Vet's K-Mack.  Ithaca had a Senior in 1998 named Troy Canada who returned kicks and was a receiver who was in the 1st Gulf War.

Couldnt agree more realistic, just trying to get K-Mack to SJF to see the Cardinals destroy Rochester.  Rochesters national humiliation would be amazing, for me anyways.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 10, 2007, 05:13:53 PM
Quote from: Upstate on August 10, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
Rochester's national humiliation would be amazing, for me anyways.

Because ... ?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on August 10, 2007, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 10, 2007, 05:13:53 PM
Quote from: Upstate on August 10, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
Rochester's national humiliation would be amazing, for me anyways.

Because ... ?

The University of Rochester has this elitist attitude, they think they should be an Ivy School. 

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on August 10, 2007, 08:59:10 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 10, 2007, 12:08:51 PM
K-Mack,

You've watched a game at a SCIAC school but not at a NWC school?  I think you need to complete the deal and come out West to the Catdome.  A September Saturday afternoon in McMinnville is a nice way to spend a day.

Could not agree more, K-Mack.  Be sure and check out the terrific BBQ cooked at the back of the parking lot by a couple of guys who own local restaurants!  Excellent! 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 10, 2007, 10:20:10 PM
Some of the Ivy schools have elitist attitudes in that they think their football belongs in the Big Ten.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on August 11, 2007, 12:00:18 AM
Some schools are also jealous of other school's names and reputations.

And some schools that may be 'elitist' aren't good enough in football to worry about. (I'm looking at you, Oberlin... :D)

We all know that there's only one school of pure evil and darkness. It's 27 miles south of Crawfordsville in the town of Greendingle. Heeeee!  ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 11, 2007, 12:25:20 AM
Quote from: smedindy on August 11, 2007, 12:00:18 AM
Some schools are also jealous of other school's names and reputations.

And some schools that may be 'elitist' aren't good enough in football to worry about. (I'm looking at you, Oberlin... :D)

We all know that there's only one school of pure evil and darkness. It's 27 miles south of Crawfordsville in the town of Greendingle. Heeeee!  ;D :D ;)

Now, Smed - any school with a British 'banger' at qb can't be ALL bad! ;D

(Spud Dick, Spotted Dick - it's all for the wurst.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 11, 2007, 10:19:51 AM
QuoteSome of the Ivy schools have elitist attitudes in that they think their football belongs in the Big Ten.

Really?  I didn't monitor Penn football all that closely when I was a grad student there a couple years ago.  But what I did see indicated the team takes the sport seriously with no delusions of grandeur.  The only small rumblings I heard were in regard to participating in the Division I-AA playoffs, not receiving the attention and prestige of major Division I programs.  My sense was that Ivy teams, much like the NESCAC, were pretty happy with their place in the athletic world.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bisonpride on August 11, 2007, 11:50:16 AM
Gallaudet Athletics launched new website with new look, interactives features and on..


Click on.. http://www.gallaudetathletics.com/


Many thanks to the Presto Sports and Viable, Inc. for make it possible.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 11, 2007, 12:43:18 PM
gordon: I was kidding on the square, but in Ivy League press boxes and from time to time elsewhere I have found a kernel of truth in my statement.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 11, 2007, 02:31:02 PM
Okay.  Understood. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 11, 2007, 02:34:49 PM
Bisonpride:

Thanks for the heads up.  We've updated our links to the football and two basketball team pages accordingly.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on August 11, 2007, 03:47:53 PM
Quote from: Upstate on August 10, 2007, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 10, 2007, 05:13:53 PM
Quote from: Upstate on August 10, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
Rochester's national humiliation would be amazing, for me anyways.

Because ... ?

The University of Rochester has this elitist attitude, they think they should be an Ivy School. 



The University of Rochester....probably should be an Ivy League school. Pep is impressed with its med school and its Strong Memorial Hospital, where Pep Jr. #2 recently had surgery. I applaud the care and expertise provided there.

But Pep likes the Yellowjackets buzzing around in D3. Aunt Bee, Andy, Opie, Floyd, Gomer and all the others here in Mayberry take great joy in seeing the Saxons beat the Rochester elitist entourage, especially after UR had announced back in 1969 that it was "upgrading its schedule" and dropping Alfred...and the Saxons prevailed that year, 29-13.

The Saxons' 2007 ECAC come-from-behind 40-34 OT win over UR at Merrill Field could, in Pep's opinion, be ranked among the Top Ten dramatic Saxon wins in its long history.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 11, 2007, 05:00:23 PM
If Rochester were an Ivy, then by USNWR standards it would be by far the least of the Ivies.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bisonpride on August 11, 2007, 05:40:16 PM
Michael Weinstock appointed Interim Athletic Director

Michael Weinstock has been appointed interim athletic director for Gallaudet's Athletic and Intramural Programs. Weinstock has been the coordinator of Athletics, P.E., Recreation, and Intramural Programs for approximately the past 11 years at the Model Secondary School for the Deaf (MSSD). Prior to that position he was the assistant athletic director/intramurals coordinator at MSSD for 12 years. Weinstock is a 1976 graduate of MSSD and a 1981 alumnus of Gallaudet, where he lettered in basketball for four years. He went on to earn his master's degree from Gallaudet in 1994.

During his time at MSSD, Weinstock was very active in the "M" Booster Club and helped increase donations, sponsorships, and support for the organization. In 2000, he founded the Clerc Classic boys and girls basketball and cheerleading tournament, which had top teams from the nation's deaf schools competing for the national title. He has coached a number of middle school, high school, and college-level sports teams for the past 26 years. Under his tenure as coach, the girls' and boys' basketball teams won numerous National Deaf Prep championships --16 of them while he was athletic director. He coached the girls' softball team, which also earned special national recognition. Silent News honored Weinstock as Coach of the Year in boys basketball, girls basketball, football, and girls softball. In 1997 he coached the U.S.A. women's basketball team, which won a gold medal at the Deaf World Games in Denmark. He was also the director of the U.S.A. Team Development at the Deaf Olympic Games in Italy in 2001. Weinstock has stated that one of his proudest moments was being selected as Coach of the Month by ESPN.com in 2000. Coaching has been a big part of Weinstock's professional career and he is also pleased that a number of staff who worked for him throughout the years have become athletic directors at deaf schools across the nation.

Weinstock looks forward to working with the Gallaudet community and will be committed to ensuring the integrity of all athletic programming and in bringing them to a higher level of standards, competitiveness, and recognition. One of his main priorities will be to focus on academic issues for student-athletes and to foster increased collaborative efforts between all athletic programs and faculty.

Link - http://www.gallaudetathletics.com/sports/generalnews/2007-08/08092007_MWAnnouncedIAD
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on August 12, 2007, 12:25:19 AM
Quote from: frank uible on August 11, 2007, 05:00:23 PM
If Rochester were an Ivy, then by USNWR standards it would be by far the least of the Ivies.

No doubt about that. Alfred's Greene Hall on Main Street once had ivy growing up one side, but it long since has been removed. Nevertheless, USNWR has rated AU quite high on its list both for its excellent programs and its value.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 12, 2007, 03:46:23 AM
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 10, 2007, 12:08:51 PMK-Mack,

You've watched a game at a SCIAC school but not at a NWC school?  I think you need to complete the deal and come out West to the Catdome.  A September Saturday afternoon in McMinnville is a nice way to spend a day.

Quote from: gordonmann on August 10, 2007, 01:13:24 PM
K-Mack:

As I can attest, the Linfield experience is one worth having.  You'll enjoy the visit, the people and the game.  That's not a knock on a trip to Rochester, just an informal advocacy to head out there at some point.

Linfield's been on the list for a long time, but so are lots of other places, and there are lots of other days to go there. That said, Hardin-Simmons/Linfield is probably the biggest game of the day that day, if we can do it (and I think we'll know soon), we probably will.

Those package deals sound good though too. We need to split up that day.

I've seen Linfield and Willamette and PLU play and I've been to Whitworth, FWIW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 12, 2007, 03:53:39 AM
OK,
This is too strange to let go.

For a long time now, I've been noticing signs of D3 schools in odd places, from Heidelberg and I think Cornell T-shirts in Vegas to seeing a Bowdoin sticker at an Eagles game and Cortland State on a car on the Beltway.

So basically I thought I was going to start the D3 Car Sticker Sighting Thread, but that might be way too nerdy to get any love on the boards. It definitely was top of mind after I took my family to Great Falls Park out here in D.C. and saw a Colby sticker on a car, and then the next day on the Beltway saw a Bates sticker. (they're rivals.) It was like a sign to hurry up and start this thread.

But I didn't. Then I saw Curry. Then Wooster. Sure, I saw Christopher Newport too, but that's to be expected in Va. The out-of-state stuff is what's (semi-) interesting.

Yesterday I saw a teenage girl walking around Manassas Mall with a Bates shirt and reminded me to start this discussion up. Today I saw a Luther sticker in a car window in Fairfax and a girl with a Coe t-shirt on in D.C. (Georgetown)

In any case, this is some definite "who cares" stuff that probably doesn't deserve it's own threads, but the season hasn't kicked off and I'm a big enough D3 geek to be interested in the signs you all see of D3 schools as you make your travels.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 12, 2007, 03:56:07 AM
Quote from: smedindy on August 11, 2007, 12:00:18 AM
Some schools are also jealous of other school's names and reputations.

And some schools that may be 'elitist' aren't good enough in football to worry about. (I'm looking at you, Oberlin... :D)

We all know that there's only one school of pure evil and darkness. It's 27 miles south of Crawfordsville in the town of Greendingle. Heeeee!  ;D :D ;)

Smed, my good man ... take a look at that devilish temple/press box near Farmville, Va., pictured on the front page. If that ain't screamin' evil, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on August 12, 2007, 11:36:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 12, 2007, 03:53:39 AM
OK,
This is too strange to let go.

For a long time now, I've been noticing signs of D3 schools in odd places, from Heidelberg and I think Cornell T-shirts in Vegas to seeing a Bowdoin sticker at an Eagles game and Cortland State on a car on the Beltway.

So basically I thought I was going to start the D3 Car Sticker Sighting Thread, but that might be way too nerdy to get any love on the boards. It definitely was top of mind after I took my family to Great Falls Park out here in D.C. and saw a Colby sticker on a car, and then the next day on the Beltway saw a Bates sticker. (they're rivals.) It was like a sign to hurry up and start this thread.

But I didn't. Then I saw Curry. Then Wooster. Sure, I saw Christopher Newport too, but that's to be expected in Va. The out-of-state stuff is what's (semi-) interesting.

Yesterday I saw a teenage girl walking around Manassas Mall with a Bates shirt and reminded me to start this discussion up. Today I saw a Luther sticker in a car window in Fairfax and a girl with a Coe t-shirt on in D.C. (Georgetown)

In any case, this is some definite "who cares" stuff that probably doesn't deserve it's own threads, but the season hasn't kicked off and I'm a big enough D3 geek to be interested in the signs you all see of D3 schools as you make your travels.
I saw a Washington  & Lee sticker on an SUV at a movie theatre in Newnan, Ga yesterday.

20 days 'til Football! Go Hawks!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 12, 2007, 04:40:54 PM
A couple of times I have meant to cite every D-III reference I see when I'm on a trip, and have seen some random ones along the lines of what you mentioned, but I haven't ever gotten it all together at once.

It's still a blog post rattling around in my head for when I get the time to do it.

Agreed on Linfield. The biggest reason we (Keith and I) haven't gone there before is the lack of direct flights from DC to PDX. Because for a while Keith and I started work on Sunday at 2 p.m. it made it darn near impossible to do. However, our schedules have changed, so it could happen, as Keith mentions.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OC_SID on August 13, 2007, 09:00:31 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 09, 2007, 12:23:51 AM
Didn't know if conversation surrounding this one would justify its own thread, but thought I had to mention it and at least save my "research" online somewhere.

Per our own Kickoff writers and the Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070803/SPORTS08/708030369/1056), Olivet apparently has a freshman who has served more than one tour of duty in Iraq.

And while the natural inclination is to not just tip the hat to the fella, but to want to write about it, I'm usually torn when I hear about a player who's served, because in Division III, it's not the first time we've heard of such a case.

Off the top of my head, I recall:

- Greg Washington (2003-04?, East Texas Baptist) had served (one D3football.com notable here (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2003/12))

- a Westfield State captain was injured on duty in Iraq (http://www.d3football.com/notables/2006/04) in '06

- a Ripon linebacker served in Iraq (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20051021/ai_n15721143)

- Mark Simon wrote about a guy who had served. I thought he was from Norwich, turns out he was from Delaware Valley and served in Kosovo (http://www.d3football.com/features.php?feature=72)

- and there was a player, Schussler, at St. Norbert last year who had been in Iraq.

Division III also features several service-related schools (U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, Coast Guard Academy, Norwich, SUNY-Maritime, Mass. Maritime Academy, Maine Maritime Academy) which likely feature some players or ex-players with ties to being in service overseas.

All of that is not to say that all Iraq/active duty stories are the same, because they aren't. Every one of those guys has done something interesting, if not very important.

The question is when, if ever, does it become not news anymore?

Should we always write about it out of respect for their service? Should we find the unique angles and feature it then?

I realize we're the journalists and we get paid to make those calls, but I guess it can't hurt to ask.

(sure I forgot some too, feel free to list on this thread)

Keith,

The Detroit News was the first one to publish about James. Here is the link to its story: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070803/SPORTS0203/708030368/1004/SPORTS.

Please feel free to contact me!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on August 13, 2007, 03:33:02 PM
Back in around Feb or March I noticed a guy with a Union Football sweatshirt while I was taking my daughter for a walk around our neighborhood (here in the West San Fernando Valley in SoCal).  There's a jr high school at the end of our block that will typically have AYSO games over the weekend.  One of his kids was playing.

Kind of funny to not only see a D3 football team, but one that was one of my school's biggest rivals!

We had a good laugh over that one.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on August 13, 2007, 03:40:32 PM
At this gym where I work out I've seen the same guy wearing Bowdoin, Middlebury and Saint John's t-shirts.  Oh, wait a minute ... that's me.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: realistic on August 13, 2007, 04:06:58 PM
I live in Queens and see a lot of Saint John's (NY) Gear...it always catches my eye because it is similar in look and color to SJU (MN) stuff.  I got used to it so it took me a while to realize last spring that I just saw a CSB/SJU Sweatshirt.  Wanted to go back but saw the kid already getting into a cab.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 13, 2007, 04:16:25 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 12, 2007, 03:53:39 AM
OK,
This is too strange to let go.

For a long time now, I've been noticing signs of D3 schools in odd places, from Heidelberg and I think Cornell T-shirts in Vegas to seeing a Bowdoin sticker at an Eagles game and Cortland State on a car on the Beltway.

So basically I thought I was going to start the D3 Car Sticker Sighting Thread, but that might be way too nerdy to get any love on the boards. It definitely was top of mind after I took my family to Great Falls Park out here in D.C. and saw a Colby sticker on a car, and then the next day on the Beltway saw a Bates sticker. (they're rivals.) It was like a sign to hurry up and start this thread.

But I didn't. Then I saw Curry. Then Wooster. Sure, I saw Christopher Newport too, but that's to be expected in Va. The out-of-state stuff is what's (semi-) interesting.

Yesterday I saw a teenage girl walking around Manassas Mall with a Bates shirt and reminded me to start this discussion up. Today I saw a Luther sticker in a car window in Fairfax and a girl with a Coe t-shirt on in D.C. (Georgetown)

In any case, this is some definite "who cares" stuff that probably doesn't deserve it's own threads, but the season hasn't kicked off and I'm a big enough D3 geek to be interested in the signs you all see of D3 schools as you make your travels.

Forgot to say I also saw a Wheaton T-shirt (under an open flannel shirt, but that's a detail for another thread) in nearly the same place I saw the Coe T-shirt.

You know, not really the kind of thing that interests the wife in conversation, but it is good to know it catches other people's eyes too.

TGP, where do you live? That's a much more odd occurrence if you're in Chicago, say, than in New York somewhere.

A blog post is a good idea, Pat. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned in in ATN before, and the message board (as opposed to a blog post) is easily the next best thing.

Anyway, keep it coming, interesting stuff all around.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tuxguy on August 13, 2007, 04:42:44 PM
Pat & K-Mack,

You guys know if you come out to a game we will make sure someone picks you up and gets you back to PDX.

2 top 15 teams going at it at the Cat-Dome. Priceless!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 13, 2007, 04:43:35 PM
Some fairly random ones...

- Randolph Macon Women's College sweatshirt at Philadelphia bus stop
- Salve Regina diploma on the wall of an acquaintance in Cherry Hill, NJ
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 13, 2007, 04:53:57 PM
Quote from: Tuxguy on August 13, 2007, 04:42:44 PM
Pat & K-Mack,

You guys know if you come out to a game we will make sure someone picks you up and gets you back to PDX.

Appreciate it. I feel like we'll be taking someone up on that. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 13, 2007, 05:12:47 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on August 13, 2007, 04:43:35 PM
Some fairly random ones...

- Randolph Macon Women's College sweatshirt at Philadelphia bus stop
- Salve Regina diploma on the wall of an acquaintance in Cherry Hill, NJ

I knew you'd have some.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on August 13, 2007, 07:12:48 PM
I saw a guy in a Cortland shirt (just the school, not football) in downtown Atlanta. In case any Ithaca fans are wondering no he was not playing and/or coaching kickball.

Speaking of Ithaca, I've seen 2 "Ithaca is Gorges" bumper sticker in Chattanooga (one was accompanied by a Cornell sticker)
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.naturalhighs.net%2Fwaterfalls%2Fimages%2Fgorge3.gif&hash=896cdd3dda292c2e91ac3f61db2c3defcd5fd0f5)

And for the really random, I once saw a Mount Union wrestling sticker here in Chatt.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on August 13, 2007, 07:49:30 PM
Incidentally I live in a big apartment complex where cars with college window stickers abound.  Off the top of my head, the parking lot has cars with stickers from Muhlenberg, Dickinson, NYU, Albright, Bryn Mawr, Johns Hopkins, Mitchell and Trinity (Conn.).

I thought about starting to photograph these stickers and making a collage.  Then I realized it would lead to all sorts of awkward conversations.

Them:  "Dude, what are you doing?"

Me: "Um, taking a picture of your car window."

Them: "Why?  What are you some kind of stalker?"

Me: "Uh, no...I just collect pictures of Division III college window stickers and...uh...yeah...you know what?  That is very weird.   Sorry about that."


Of course, there's also a chance they wouldn't ask any questions.  Maybe they'd just assume the worst and punch me in the nose.  So unless the car has stickers from a college where I've got a fighting chance (MIT and maybe Bryn Mawr?), I'll just sit on that idea.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 14, 2007, 05:14:49 AM
Now that's funny.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on August 14, 2007, 04:51:53 PM
 
Quote from: gordonmann on August 13, 2007, 07:49:30 PM
Incidentally I live in a big apartment complex where cars with college window stickers abound.  Off the top of my head, the parking lot has cars with stickers from Muhlenberg, Dickinson, NYU, Albright, Bryn Mawr, Johns Hopkins, Mitchell and Trinity (Conn.).

I thought about starting to photograph these stickers and making a collage.  Then I realized it would lead to all sorts of awkward conversations.

Them:  "Dude, what are you doing?"

Me: "Um, taking a picture of your car window."

Them: "Why?  What are you some kind of stalker?"

Me: "Uh, no...I just collect pictures of Division III college window stickers and...uh...yeah...you know what?  That is very weird.   Sorry about that."


Of course, there's also a chance they wouldn't ask any questions.  Maybe they'd just assume the worst and punch me in the nose.  So unless the car has stickers from a college where I've got a fighting chance (MIT and maybe Bryn Mawr?), I'll just sit on that idea.


gordonmann

Stay away from those schools on the main line, those girls are tough!!!!! Swarthmore may be your best chance.. But they may mind meld you there...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 16, 2007, 07:50:20 PM
I swear we used to have a Wing-T thread, but the search didn't turn it up. (granted, I didn't search all that hard)

anyway, there's a feature running on itin USA Today tomorrow. It's a prep story, but the graphics breakdown how to run the traps and counters, which is pretty cool.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/default.htm

May update with the exact link later, but I'd poke around there for now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 16, 2007, 08:19:00 PM
I'm going to update the "D3 brushes with fame" list after Kickoff is done. Thought I'd add these training camp sites:

Baltimore  McDaniel College  Westminster, Md.  July 31 (rookies, vets) 
Buffalo  St. John Fisher College  Pittsford, N.Y.  July 29 (rookies, vets) 
Indianapolis  Rose-Hulman Institute  Terre Haute, IN  July 27 (rookies and vets) 
Kansas City  Wisconsin-River Falls  River Falls, Wis.  July 28 (rookies and vets) 
Pittsburgh  St. Vincent College  St. Vincent College  July 31 (rookies and vets) 
Green Bay  St. Norbert College  DePere, Wis.  July 25 (rookies), July 27 (vets) 

Up to 6 this year!

Also saw another weird car sticker. I'll let you know if I remember where from.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on August 16, 2007, 08:30:47 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 16, 2007, 08:19:00 PM
I'm going to update the "D3 brushes with fame" list after Kickoff is done. Thought I'd add these training camp sites:

Baltimore  McDaniel College  Westminster, Md.  July 31 (rookies, vets) 
Buffalo  St. John Fisher College  Pittsford, N.Y.  July 29 (rookies, vets) 
Indianapolis  Rose-Hulman Institute  Terre Haute, IN  July 27 (rookies and vets) 
Kansas City  Wisconsin-River Falls  River Falls, Wis.  July 28 (rookies and vets) 
Pittsburgh  St. Vincent College  St. Vincent College  July 31 (rookies and vets) 
Green Bay  St. Norbert College  DePere, Wis.  July 25 (rookies), July 27 (vets) 

Up to 6 this year!

New Orleans - Millsaps ?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: reality check on August 17, 2007, 06:32:58 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 16, 2007, 07:50:20 PM
I swear we used to have a Wing-T thread, but the search didn't turn it up. (granted, I didn't search all that hard)

anyway, there's a feature running on itin USA Today tomorrow. It's a prep story, but the graphics breakdown how to run the traps and counters, which is pretty cool.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/default.htm

May update with the exact link later, but I'd poke around there for now.

So funny Keith.  I was clicking through the pages trying to find the wing-t thread before I resounded myself to just posting the link to that very same story in here.  Great minds think alike...so umm, I don't know how we ended up on the same page.

There's also a story on JCU alum London Fletcher running as the feature story on the NFL today. 

Fletcher Story (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/redskins/2007-08-16-Fletcher_N.htm)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 18, 2007, 01:58:06 PM
Quote from: Hawks88 on August 16, 2007, 08:30:47 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 16, 2007, 08:19:00 PM
I'm going to update the "D3 brushes with fame" list after Kickoff is done. Thought I'd add these training camp sites:

Baltimore  McDaniel College  Westminster, Md.  July 31 (rookies, vets) 
Buffalo  St. John Fisher College  Pittsford, N.Y.  July 29 (rookies, vets) 
Indianapolis  Rose-Hulman Institute  Terre Haute, IN  July 27 (rookies and vets) 
Kansas City  Wisconsin-River Falls  River Falls, Wis.  July 28 (rookies and vets) 
Pittsburgh  St. Vincent College  St. Vincent College  July 31 (rookies and vets) 
Green Bay  St. Norbert College  DePere, Wis.  July 25 (rookies), July 27 (vets) 

Up to 6 this year!

New Orleans - Millsaps ?

You're right, it wasn't listed like that on the list I snagged this off of, but they sure have been at the 'Saps.

Seven!

I think Kenyon was the sticker I saw. Not sure. Saw Bates again. Maybe it's the same car ... either that or Bates is sending a gang of fools (I can talk that way on this thread!) down to D.C.

RC,
No idea what happened to the Wing-T thread. That wasn't back on the old board, was it? Perhaps the years are starting to run together.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 18, 2007, 04:49:07 PM
Maybe Bates is dropping stickers from the sky like World War II propaganda leaflets.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on August 18, 2007, 09:48:27 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 16, 2007, 07:50:20 PM
I swear we used to have a Wing-T thread, but the search didn't turn it up. (granted, I didn't search all that hard)

anyway, there's a feature running on itin USA Today tomorrow. It's a prep story, but the graphics breakdown how to run the traps and counters, which is pretty cool.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/default.htm

May update with the exact link later, but I'd poke around there for now.

Super multimedia with that wing-t ...

Not quite as wild as the single wing with the spinner and buck lateral -- now those would make some fun graphics... there was an Iron Range team in Minnesota that ran it until the early '80s (Eveleth) and another (Intl Falls -- nicknamed the Broncos after homeboy Nagurski) that ran a fabulous double wing. Always a good time when those teams got together ...unless you were a DT.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 19, 2007, 05:04:58 AM
The article did not come close to showing the wing-T's full array of possible sweeps, buck based actions, dives, bellies, options, counters, boots and roll outs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on August 19, 2007, 11:04:07 AM
True enough, Frank . . . but for a general interest publication there was a lot more depth (and effort) than you usually see.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on August 19, 2007, 01:03:19 PM
 One of the highschool teams here in P.A runs the wing-t and they wear a  dark  the color of the ball. But they still  have to wear road whites....They ahve had some very talented kids run it and it is a cool thinbg to watch on game tapes when all the schemes can be seen
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 01:34:46 PM
Quote from: repete on August 19, 2007, 11:04:07 AM
True enough, Frank . . . but for a general interest publication there was a lot more depth (and effort) than you usually see.

Yeah, I agree with you both. It's no Bucksweep.com, but that did a lot for the casual fan.

I know I mentioned this before, but the single wing actually made a comeback in Northern Va. about 5 years ago. A few teams who didn't have the spread offense personally went to versions of the Wing-T and single-wing to keep up, and they were so well-coached it actually worked. Osbourn (Manassas, Va.) won the Division 6 state title this year running the single wing, I believe. Last time I covered them they didn't have a true QB, any of 3 backs could get the snap, they ran the spin plays, etc.

A nightmare to keep the stats for, but fun to watch just to see it.

Cool that teams can win with it too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 20, 2007, 01:59:38 PM
There used to be (maybe still is) an association of single wing coaches, which had (has possibly) a website full of interesting information. Use your googling talents if you care!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 20, 2007, 02:01:58 PM
National Single Wing Coaches Association it is called.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 20, 2007, 03:37:59 PM
http://www.nswca.org/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on August 20, 2007, 04:21:16 PM
As an unabashed devotee of the single wing, leather helmets, and long-sleeved
striped jerseys (per Princeton in the 1950s), allow me to add that a quick-and-dirty
Google search will turn up any number of sites dealing with this formation (and the double wing and the "Wildcat").

Long live the bucklateral!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 04:52:54 PM
Perry High School in Stark County, OH runs the Wing T to perfection.  Keith Wakefield introduced the Wing T at Perry in 1982.  His teams went 157-72 in the Federal League, which is considered one of the top HS Leagues in Ohio.  "Wake" is now the Offensive Line Coach at Mount Union, but the new staff at Perry has continued to run the Wing T with much success.  It's fun to watch and once they get the defense off balance it can gobble up some big yardage.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
Defenisvely, I have experience getting used by the Wing-T, then figuring it out and twice snuffing it.

I'm a fan of it for its uniqueness, and it's ability to get the most out of available talent, not so much for its effectiveness.

I don't know if this is the complete key to stopping it, but we were often told "follow the guards -- they'll lead you to the play."

That's why I liked the USAT diagram. Simple as it was, it showed a variation where the guards take you away from the play.

I also remember one year when we used corners (me) to take on the guards while the OLBs and DEs blew up the plays. Definitely not one of my more finesse-filled days, but always cool to say you did it!

Almost enough Wing-T talk to have its own thread.  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 20, 2007, 06:08:50 PM
Using guards pulling away from the point of attack is an integral part of the wing-T.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: skunks_sidekick on August 20, 2007, 06:15:11 PM
 :(  Speaking of Perry and the Wing-T......my PeeWee team just scrimmaged the two 6th & 7th grade Perry teams last Saturday.  They teach that offense to the kids from the time they are in 3rd grade.  Needless to say.....our kids had a hard time finding the football.  That and the fact that they were way bigger and faster than us made for a very long day!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
Defenisvely, I have experience getting used by the Wing-T, then figuring it out and twice snuffing it.

I'm a fan of it for its uniqueness, and it's ability to get the most out of available talent, not so much for its effectiveness.

I don't know if this is the complete key to stopping it, but we were often told "follow the guards -- they'll lead you to the play."

That's why I liked the USAT diagram. Simple as it was, it showed a variation where the guards take you away from the play.

I also remember one year when we used corners (me) to take on the guards while the OLBs and DEs blew up the plays. Definitely not one of my more finesse-filled days, but always cool to say you did it!

Almost enough Wing-T talk to have its own thread.  ;D

I once heard Ed Glass say that the defense had to disrupt the Wing T in the backfield.  If you let them get to the line of scrimmage you're beat.  Glass was the head coach at North Canton Hoover and played Perry every year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 06:57:12 PM
In non Wing-T news, I can't say enough about all the work people put into Kickoff, especially behind the scenes. Coleman, Mann, Tipps, McGraw, etc. -- big shouts out.

All of the features were good reads (although I haven't read Clyde's Kehres piece yet, I'm told it's great).

At least one thing I forgot to mention. MWC writer Sean P. Fallon filed his stuff on time, even though his wife delivered a baby right before it was due.

And we sent it back for some updates afterward. I think he did those too, but it's really all a blur.

Although we didn't edit as much as we wanted, we did more than we'd ever done before. We even sent stuff back to writers for improvement for the first time.

Anyway ... am I getting killed on the Liberty League board yet?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 06:59:48 PM
Quote from: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
Defenisvely, I have experience getting used by the Wing-T, then figuring it out and twice snuffing it.

I'm a fan of it for its uniqueness, and it's ability to get the most out of available talent, not so much for its effectiveness.

I don't know if this is the complete key to stopping it, but we were often told "follow the guards -- they'll lead you to the play."

That's why I liked the USAT diagram. Simple as it was, it showed a variation where the guards take you away from the play.

I also remember one year when we used corners (me) to take on the guards while the OLBs and DEs blew up the plays. Definitely not one of my more finesse-filled days, but always cool to say you did it!

Almost enough Wing-T talk to have its own thread.  ;D

I once heard Ed Glass say that the defense had to disrupt the Wing T in the backfield.  If you let them get to the line of scrimmage you're beat.  Glass was the head coach at North Canton Hoover and played Perry every year.

Yeah, I mean I'm sure Frank's right too ... no offense would be so simple to let someone take you to the ball on every play. Plus, the Wing-T can set you up like that and then give the ball to someone different and bust a big play.

Which is another defending the Wing-T strategy, perhaps in line with what Glass was saying (although he probably meant knock pulling linemen off their paths, etc.) ... the other strategy was tackle everything. On every play.

How you like that one? Tall order or foolproof plan?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 06:59:48 PM
Quote from: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
Defenisvely, I have experience getting used by the Wing-T, then figuring it out and twice snuffing it.

I'm a fan of it for its uniqueness, and it's ability to get the most out of available talent, not so much for its effectiveness.

I don't know if this is the complete key to stopping it, but we were often told "follow the guards -- they'll lead you to the play."

That's why I liked the USAT diagram. Simple as it was, it showed a variation where the guards take you away from the play.

I also remember one year when we used corners (me) to take on the guards while the OLBs and DEs blew up the plays. Definitely not one of my more finesse-filled days, but always cool to say you did it!

Almost enough Wing-T talk to have its own thread.  ;D

I once heard Ed Glass say that the defense had to disrupt the Wing T in the backfield.  If you let them get to the line of scrimmage you're beat.  Glass was the head coach at North Canton Hoover and played Perry every year.

Yeah, I mean I'm sure Frank's right too ... no offense would be so simple to let someone take you to the ball on every play. Plus, the Wing-T can set you up like that and then give the ball to someone different and bust a big play.

Which is another defending the Wing-T strategy, perhaps in line with what Glass was saying (although he probably meant knock pulling linemen off their paths, etc.) ... the other strategy was tackle everything. On every play.

How you like that one? Tall order or foolproof plan?

If I remember correctly what Glass said, he was advocating the liberal use of the blitz against the Wing T.  Tackle everybody?  A good way to defend the Tripple Option, but I'm not so sure about the Wing T.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 21, 2007, 01:50:56 AM
Quote from: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 06:59:48 PM
Quote from: rscl70 on August 20, 2007, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
Defenisvely, I have experience getting used by the Wing-T, then figuring it out and twice snuffing it.

I'm a fan of it for its uniqueness, and it's ability to get the most out of available talent, not so much for its effectiveness.

I don't know if this is the complete key to stopping it, but we were often told "follow the guards -- they'll lead you to the play."

That's why I liked the USAT diagram. Simple as it was, it showed a variation where the guards take you away from the play.

I also remember one year when we used corners (me) to take on the guards while the OLBs and DEs blew up the plays. Definitely not one of my more finesse-filled days, but always cool to say you did it!

Almost enough Wing-T talk to have its own thread.  ;D

I once heard Ed Glass say that the defense had to disrupt the Wing T in the backfield.  If you let them get to the line of scrimmage you're beat.  Glass was the head coach at North Canton Hoover and played Perry every year.

Yeah, I mean I'm sure Frank's right too ... no offense would be so simple to let someone take you to the ball on every play. Plus, the Wing-T can set you up like that and then give the ball to someone different and bust a big play.

Which is another defending the Wing-T strategy, perhaps in line with what Glass was saying (although he probably meant knock pulling linemen off their paths, etc.) ... the other strategy was tackle everything. On every play.

How you like that one? Tall order or foolproof plan?

If I remember correctly what Glass said, he was advocating the liberal use of the blitz against the Wing T.  Tackle everybody?  A good way to defend the Tripple Option, but I'm not so sure about the Wing T.

It's definitely an option strategy, and it stands to reason you could do it with Wing-T. But I might be confusing my strategies.

Tackle everybody might not be the worst across-the-board defensive strategy ... if not for those pesky rules on pass plays.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hustle on August 28, 2007, 12:25:59 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 20, 2007, 01:34:46 PM
I know I mentioned this before, but the single wing actually made a comeback in Northern Va. about 5 years ago. A few teams who didn't have the spread offense personally went to versions of the Wing-T and single-wing to keep up, and they were so well-coached it actually worked. Osbourn (Manassas, Va.) won the Division 6 state title this year running the single wing, I believe. Last time I covered them they didn't have a true QB, any of 3 backs could get the snap, they ran the spin plays, etc.
Just as a note of correction: Osbourn switched to the spread last year.

And I know it's been a long time for K-Mack, but numbers for the QB who led them to the state title (he graduated in the spring): 290 rushes, 1,789 yards, 6.1 YPC, 26 TDs; 133 comp., 261 att., 2,428 yards, 32 TDs, 11 INT. So yeah, they had a QB who, not surprisingly, was Virginia's Player of the Year for Group AAA and is now suiting up at West Virginia.

I'm certain Keith will trust me on this.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on August 28, 2007, 01:27:11 PM
NCAA President Myles Brand (RPI '64) takes part in the official groundbreaking ceremony for RPI's new athletics complex (http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/athletics.html).

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rpiathletics.com%2Fimages%2Fgen%2F2007%2F8%2F26%2FGroundbreaking.jpg&hash=b3935022e58df0a8a53ffea8c825e9c08d7b2ab5) (http://www.rpiathletics.com/images/gen/2007/8/26/Groundbreaking.jpg)
(left to right): Myles Brand '64, President Shirley Ann Jackson,
Samuel Heffner '56, Erik Swanson '08 & Dr. Eddie Ade Knowles
officially break ground on the new East Campus Athletic Village


Full Story (http://www.rpiathletics.com/News/football/2007/8/26/groundbreaking082607.asp?path=football)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 28, 2007, 01:31:09 PM
Nice tip, thanks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on August 28, 2007, 02:06:56 PM
Apparently this means that I will need to wait until 2009 in order to have a squint at this project in any substantially completed form - as I tool up and down Route 2 with time on my hands.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tom33 on August 28, 2007, 03:10:11 PM
Thanks for the read on the sports complex.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 28, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
I think 'gro put that here at least partially as a reference to the not-yet-completed ATN & Friends List of Famous D3 Alumni.

In other news, look what I found:

QuoteGodfrey shines at receiver this time
By NOAH TRISTER
AP Sports Writer

LITTLE ROCK (AP) — No matter who was playing quarterback for Henderson State, Greg Godfrey was a worthy target.

"This was by far his best game as a receiver," coach Scott Maxfield said.

Godfrey had five catches for 107 yards and two touchdowns in the Reddies' 44-7 win over Texas College on Saturday night. Godfrey teamed with quarterbacks Garett Manning and Roch Charpentier to help Henderson State to an easy win in its season opener — and he earned a place in The Associated Press Small College Spotlight.

You're right, Henderson and TC are not ones of us, but the AP Small College Spotlight?

I wonder whose idea that was, if it has anything to do with the popularity of small-college websites showing tangible proof that some people love college football, and not just I-A, and if D3 teams will get spotlighted much.

Since there's 238 of us by our count (NNA, etc., included), we certain have about as much opportunity as D2 and NAIA combined to do noteworthy stuff.

We shall see.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 29, 2007, 12:52:31 AM
OK,
Took a weekend there to draft a few fantasy football teams and decompress from Kickoff before beginning the four-month whirlwind from Thursday through the Stagg Bowl.

There were some questions asked of me on other boards, I might as well repeat my answers here for those of you who don't frequent those boards but would be interested in the answers.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 29, 2007, 01:30:09 AM
This definitely fits with the discussion we were having here:

Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on August 23, 2007, 10:10:57 PM
TGP had a LL sighting on the 101 South near Topanga Canyon Blvd.  Old guy driving a 540 Beamer with a WPI alumni sticker on the back.

Bizarroneers are kicking it in SoCal!

I saw something else weird this week, can't remember at the moment.

Promise it wasn't another Bates sticker though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 29, 2007, 02:06:52 AM
Reminder to self:

Quote from: Senor RedTackle on August 22, 2007, 08:32:28 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 22, 2007, 12:49:31 AM
I must be drunk.

I just voted for Rochester to win the LL in the poll.

Agreed on the drunk part.....UR is the fad pick. Scott Green can't step out on the field and actually play.  RPI has the most talent, on paper, right now at the start of camp.

Respectfully posed question here:  Have you seen a LL game any time recently? What do you think of the quality?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on August 29, 2007, 05:28:27 PM
Speaking of the LL, when can we expect an East Region ATN?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 30, 2007, 03:15:34 PM
Good to have ATN back for another season, Keith - it must be time to play some football!!   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: kickerdad on August 30, 2007, 04:00:17 PM
To Everyone,

I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone involved (players, coaches, parents, fans) with DIII football, good luck not only for Saturday but for the entire season.

Remember to always display good sportsmanship regardless of what the call is or what the outcome may be. There will be bad calls, there will be upsets, there will be poor choice of play calling, poor play; but remember DIII is un-political, unpaid and everyone plays and watches for the love of the game. I remember last year watching Averett get a good old fashion butt whipping by Mount Union. During the game, time and time over and over, Mount Union players knocking the crap out of an Averett player, put him on his but; yet reach out and help him up and give him a pat on the back. This is what it's all about, good clean sportmanship.

Remember to drive safe and for those that will indulge in a little stronger "Tea" than some, please give your keys to a designated driver or wait several hours after the last one before you get behind the wheel.

And say a little prayer for all the players that they are able to do their best and no one gets seriously hurt.

GOOD LUCK and have FUN

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 30, 2007, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on August 29, 2007, 05:28:27 PM
Speaking of the LL, when can we expect an East Region ATN?

If that Rochester-area double didn't fall on Hardin-Simmons/Linfield week, I woulda took it in a heartbeat.

In the past, I've shied away from East Region stuff because we always had other guys based out of upstate New York, the Philly area and Conn. ... it made sense for me to go where they weren't.

Probably looking at SJF at Springfield Oct. 20, not that that impresses the LL much.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on August 30, 2007, 05:16:48 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 30, 2007, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on August 29, 2007, 05:28:27 PM
Speaking of the LL, when can we expect an East Region ATN?

If that Rochester-area double didn't fall on Hardin-Simmons/Linfield week, I woulda took it in a heartbeat.

In the past, I've shied away from East Region stuff because we always had other guys based out of upstate New York, the Philly area and Conn. ... it made sense for me to go where they weren't.

Probably looking at SJF at Springfield Oct. 20, not that that impresses the LL much.
I meant ATR not ATN.  Noted that a new ATR was posted for the East today.  Thx!

re: your other comments, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I believe that the LL is always interested in E8 games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 30, 2007, 07:14:40 PM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on August 30, 2007, 05:16:48 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 30, 2007, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: The Great Pumpkin on August 29, 2007, 05:28:27 PM
Speaking of the LL, when can we expect an East Region ATN?

If that Rochester-area double didn't fall on Hardin-Simmons/Linfield week, I woulda took it in a heartbeat.

In the past, I've shied away from East Region stuff because we always had other guys based out of upstate New York, the Philly area and Conn. ... it made sense for me to go where they weren't.

Probably looking at SJF at Springfield Oct. 20, not that that impresses the LL much.
I meant ATR not ATN.  Noted that a new ATR was posted for the East today.  Thx!

re: your other comments, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I believe that the LL is always interested in E8 games.

Originially, I thought you meant ATR.

But then I figured why would you be asking about that here, so I went ahead and answered as asked.

It seems like in all the upstate stuff, there would be logical crossover, but put in the same shoes ... if I were asking someone to come see a game in Va., and they said they could catch the USAC but not the ODAC, not sure I'd be thrilled.

For the record, once Kickoff goes live, I am in charge of very little besides getting my column done within a day of the time it was originally planned to go up. It's probably best that way.

Pat is the man you'd ask about when an ATR is going up.

Then again, he doesn't have his own little 'Ask Pat' thread, does he? Maybe we need to look into that.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 30, 2007, 07:18:08 PM
I can't stress enough how much I'd rather be at Moravian-Susquehanna than work right now.

I mean, getting live updates on Tulsa-La. Monroe and Cincinnati/SE Missouri St. is nice and all ...

Wow, what a bouquet of roses left for me on the front page. I guess ATN will have to be, like, good this year to justify it :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 30, 2007, 07:46:11 PM
Heh, I figured once a year it makes sense to introduce you to the new fans. Don't get too used to it. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 30, 2007, 10:38:15 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 30, 2007, 07:46:11 PM
Heh, I figured once a year it makes sense to introduce you to the new fans. Don't get too used to it. :)

I won't, you know, since it usually takes something happening more than once before you can get used to it.

(feels so appreciated)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 03, 2007, 10:38:43 AM
The LA Times' Chris Dufresne had the following shout out to D3 in today's sports pages:

"Another defending sub-division national champion that Michigan might want to avoid is Division III powerhouse Mount Union, which scored 52 first quarter points in a 75-7 route of Averett."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 03, 2007, 06:07:24 PM
Somebody should've caught "route," but yeah ... that's already got some mention in the part of ATN I started writing.

If Gregg Easterbrook doesn't slam Mount Union aka The Death Star for "running up the score," I'll be shocked.

When you score first-quarter/half 3 TDs on D/ST and you only get your star RB 7 carries and he scores 4 times, that ain't running it up, that's being on another level. Completely.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on September 03, 2007, 06:53:59 PM
I went to check how many players Mt Union used and discovered that five different players wearing #2 played.  ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 03, 2007, 07:00:19 PM
Easterbrook may, but I bet he'll gloat more over Appy State's win as sticking it in the eye of the big man. Which he should.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 03, 2007, 07:13:23 PM
cwru - Actually, no. That's the weirdness of the software. I think 5 players who had duplicates in the 20's played, but not #2. Anytime you have a dupe, you name the player the first number of the dupe then a letter "A", "B", etc.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 03, 2007, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 03, 2007, 07:00:19 PM
Easterbrook may, but I bet he'll gloat more over Appy State's win as sticking it in the eye of the big man. Which he should.

Yes, perfect cover for most journalists who don't bother to look at D3 scores, but the Mount Union thing will get a mention. Somewhere, if not by Easterbrook.

I'm finished talking about that guy now. Carry on.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on September 04, 2007, 12:34:12 PM
FWIW, Easterbrook did mention Mount Union but not in the context I would've expected.  He applauded the Purple Raiders kneeling twice with a big lead to avoid scoring again.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 04, 2007, 07:16:25 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on September 04, 2007, 12:34:12 PM
FWIW, Easterbrook did mention Mount Union but not in the context I would've expected.  He applauded the Purple Raiders kneeling twice with a big lead to avoid scoring again.

Dare I think my two long e-mails (and maybe other people's) last year explaining some of these instances had an effect? The Purple Raiders really are that much better than some teams, and last year's Otterbein game and Saturday's Averett game are great examples.

Being someone who has no real reason to hate or love Mount Union, I would hope my recollections come off as legitimate.

Anyway, good for Gregg.

Methinks St. John Fisher won't be so giving in Alliance next year.

OK, real work to do and a lot of ATN numbers-crunching to follow, so time to check out of Post Patterns for 24-36 hours :)

See you Thursday!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 04, 2007, 09:45:10 PM
In reality, I think he probably looked at the box score, and saw what Mt. Union was doing. I think his big beef is passing teams still throwing when they're up 50 points in the 4th quarter against a totally outmatched team and they let the starter play 3 quarters or so. Like when Houston did it in the Klingler and Ware years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 04, 2007, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 04, 2007, 07:16:25 PM
Me thinks St. John Fisher won't be so giving in Alliance next year.

Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 04, 2007, 10:56:23 PM
Since K-Mack apparently won't be back for awhile, I simply took that to mean SJF might not fumble 3 times in the first quarter (and give up 52 points)!

If he actually meant something else, we should know on Thursday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on September 05, 2007, 08:51:37 AM
Yes, I think that's probably it.  Remember that St. John Fisher takes Averett's place on Mount Union's schedule next year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 05, 2007, 07:44:36 PM
Ah, that makes sense.  I thought he was refering back to the semi-final game between MUC and SJF.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 06, 2007, 01:05:43 PM
Great job with ATN, Keith - note that ETBU @ D2 Ouachita Baptist University should be added to the "Who are those guys" section.  Sorry to bring it up; based on what I saw last week it won't be close.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 06, 2007, 04:38:37 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 06, 2007, 01:05:43 PM
Great job with ATN, Keith - note that ETBU @ D2 Ouachita Baptist University should be added to the "Who are those guys" section.  Sorry to bring it up; based on what I saw last week it won't be close.

That was on my hand-written list, just missed typing it in. Thanks for the heads-up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 06, 2007, 08:01:19 PM
G.A. Mangus is showing out right now. MTSU has scored three TDs in the first quarter vs. Louisville ... too bad they trail 28-21 with 2:22 to go in the opening period.

Mangus, as you might recall, is the former Del Val coach who left to be the Blue Raiders' OC.

On the deuce is anyone sees this and cares.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 06, 2007, 08:04:05 PM
I mean, unless you'd rather watch Kelly Clarkson on NFL pre-game.

(I can't really knock that. Well, I can, but I won't.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 06, 2007, 08:26:32 PM
Looks like a defense-optional game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 07, 2007, 07:20:00 AM
Louisville ranked #8 with that defense?  Right. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 07, 2007, 01:15:46 PM
K-Mack,

A correction on ATN - you point to Coe's 24-0 shutout of IWU.  Only one problem: there was no shutout.  Coe won 24-6, and it was just 17-6 with 30 seconds to go.  The real story may have been IWU's defense: holding Coe to 11 first downs (vs. 16 for the Titans) and 170 yards total (vs. 256).  Coe scored on a fg after a 10-yard 'drive', a 56-yard punt return, a 92-yard interception return, and that last minute td after a 29-yard 'drive'.  Coe also blocked a punt, recovering on the IWU 8, and DID NOT SCORE.  The Titan defense did a marvelous job, but was undone by special teams (the Kohawks AVERAGED 50.4 on 5 kickoff returns - talk about making your defense protect a short field!).

IWU has definitely been down in recent seasons (though the defense may be nationally competitive if they could only get some help elsewhere), but let's save the shutouts for when they actually occur! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 08, 2007, 03:53:28 AM
Duly noted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 14, 2007, 01:12:50 AM
Reposted from the Northwest Conf. board for anyone who gives even a third of a crap about our trip to Linfield-HSU:

QuoteOK, I know there have been suggestions a'flying, but here are my goals for the trip. Let me know if I'm missing something:

1. Take in a series or two on the end zone couches
2. Spend some time with Ad Rutschman somehow
3. Tour the Catdome

Who do I have to talk to to make these things happen?

Also, what do I need to add to my list? Can I get up a game of touch football somewhere?

4. Throw TD pass to Branden Hazenberg, pretend to be Brett Elliott. Or Tyler Matthews even.

We got direct flights from D.C. to Portland, sounds like we'll be in McMinnville Friday night. Let us know where the party's at (however you define party is fine by us).

I have plans in Portland on Saturday night, FWIW.

Too much information?

Carlson, I know I haven't responded to any of your messages yet (I shut off the world until ATN is done, since I'm easily distracted), but I'm leaning on you most likely as tour guide No. 1.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 14, 2007, 10:04:23 AM
Pat, you and Keith have a great trip, and I hope you don't have any of the travel problems (cancelled flights etc.) that have been so rampant this summer.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 14, 2007, 10:06:12 AM
Knock on wood. That's why we're not flying Northwest. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 15, 2007, 03:42:30 AM
No Northwest = We made it.

(actually doesn't have problems on Northwest  :o )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 15, 2007, 10:47:12 AM
I have to fly Northwest all of the time now. Don't scare me!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 15, 2007, 12:50:52 PM
Don't worry. They only cancel flights en masse at the end of the month. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2007, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 15, 2007, 12:50:52 PM
Don't worry. They only cancel flights en masse at the end of the month. :)
When the flight crews have used up their hours?  ??? ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on September 15, 2007, 01:48:19 PM
BKA Northworst
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 15, 2007, 02:12:43 PM
Exactly, Ralph.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on September 15, 2007, 02:31:37 PM
NWA is actually back on my good side. In MSP this summer, there was a guy in front of me raising all kinds of hell after storms had delayed his flight and shutdown a runaway. He treated the gate folks like crap, said he was a govt. employee and had to get back to NoVa. Threated to complain to company. Complete ass.

I was next in line and told the agent she'd been perfectly professional and too nice. Still, she was pretty shaken up by the jerk so I left a business card and said if there was trouble, I'd rebut it.

So when boarding time arrived, one of her co-workers called me over and handed me a new boarding pass: 2A.

I wasn't looking for that .. but from now on I'm lining up behind belligerent jerks... :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 15, 2007, 03:57:15 PM
Good story. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on September 16, 2007, 09:49:14 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2007, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 15, 2007, 12:50:52 PM
Don't worry. They only cancel flights en masse at the end of the month. :)
When the flight crews have used up their hours?  ??? ;)

Reached their credit limit for fuel.   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 16, 2007, 07:03:47 PM
Quote from: repete on September 15, 2007, 02:31:37 PM
NWA is actually back on my good side. In MSP this summer, there was a guy in front of me raising all kinds of hell after storms had delayed his flight and shutdown a runaway. He treated the gate folks like crap, said he was a govt. employee and had to get back to NoVa. Threated to complain to company. Complete ass.

I was next in line and told the agent she'd been perfectly professional and too nice. Still, she was pretty shaken up by the jerk so I left a business card and said if there was trouble, I'd rebut it.

So when boarding time arrived, one of her co-workers called me over and handed me a new boarding pass: 2A.

I wasn't looking for that .. but from now on I'm lining up behind belligerent jerks... :)

Nice.

Unfortunately, even NWA at its best is still tying up too many gates at MSP and keeping fares high. Since it's the destination I prefer to travel to most, that's frustrating.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on September 17, 2007, 01:21:49 AM
Love the loungin' shot in the HSU/Linfield photo gallery kmack!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 17, 2007, 11:36:38 AM
My flight back from Indianapolis was actually EARLY last night. Woot!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 12:48:06 AM
Quote from: downtown48 on September 17, 2007, 01:21:49 AM
Love the loungin' shot in the HSU/Linfield photo gallery kmack!

That's funny, all I could think was 'who would want to buy that?'

At least it's amusing. And at least you guys have found the photo galleries. And I'm not even saying it because I shot half the game, but man there are some kick-[butt] shots in those galleries.

Wish I could go back to 95-96-97 and get some shots of a certain lanky corner/safety in action. The yearbook pages will have to do, ah well.

Smed, regarding cross-country flight, I have but one word for you: Direct.

(and actually DirecTV is not a bad Word No. 2, if you've ever flown JetBlue. United this past weekend, but get the JB shuttle to Vegas if you go.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 05:53:35 AM
I cut these from the Travel Log portion of the column this week, but my semi-edited digressions might be enjoyable to the die-hard ATN fan.

(reference to Linfield being a mix of old and new)
Or the old, historic campus where graduations are held (familiar to my experience at Randolph-Macon) and the new apartments built on land donated to the college by Hewlett-Packard. (check) Pat remarked as we drove into town that this could very well be Alliance, Ohio, but later recanted when we reached downtown McMinnville. Third Street meant it appeared a very spunky town that looks like a pretty fun place to visit, and not as small a small-town as most college towns. Of course Pat and I spend the vast majority of our time on campus when we parachute in and out of town on game day, but despite me having no connection to Oregon, I felt like I wouldn't mind moving there someday. Not far out of town are wineries and mountain vistas. On campus, for those who have never visited the Pacific Coast, the influence of Hawaiian students and the surf culture was evident. I felt like chillin' out.


<img src="/images/bullet.gif" hspace="3"> For you who have never been, I'm not sure what your expectations of Portland are, but I had heard about it being a so-called Green city and I had read about the downtown Pearl District.

With some family in the Pacific Northwest, I got to have dinner with my sister in Portland after the Linfield game. Great city. My knowledge of Oregon geography was sorely lacking, however, as I couldn't remember which river Portland sits on. Turns out the Columbia and Willamette rivers fork at Portland, creating a drive along I-5 (Pat and were sure to refer to it as The 5, to pay proper West Coast respect) filled with views of the rivers and the bridges the city has built over them. Think maybe, Pittsburgh. It looks like post cards in every direction.

Those bridges can be a source of confusion though. I got a good look at the map before I headed from the airport-area motel back downtown, and knew I'd need to avoid Steel Street Bridge, a one-way bridge (I think that's a first). So in one of those 'everything I can do wrong I did' rushes to be on time, I got off the highway an exit early, found myself at the Rose Garden, home of the Portland Trail Blazers and their giant Greg Oden poster (so sorry), and what do you know ... bang, Steel Street Bridge.

Luckily there are bridges everywhere in Portland, and I eventually made it across the river to the city's downtown maze of one-way streets and parking lots I couldn't reach.

My new recommendation is to take the light rail.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 20, 2007, 09:52:30 AM
The Pacific Northwest is a wonderful part of the world.  Glad you got to visit (and on "business," too  :D)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on September 20, 2007, 11:11:50 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 05:53:35 AM
Luckily there are bridges everywhere in Portland, and I eventually made it across the river to the city’s downtown maze of one-way streets and parking lots I couldn’t reach.

My new recommendation is to take the light rail.


No worries K-Mack....Mrs. 11 still gets turned around in downtown Portland.  With the one ways and the constant construction it can be a little confusing.  Sounds like the drive back from Mac to PDX went smooth. 

We were happy that you and PC were able to make it out.

BTW...That Around the Nation was fantastic.  :)  Where did you eat at in Portland?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on September 20, 2007, 11:50:19 AM
Yup, as a guy who's lived in five U.S. time zones, the Pacific NW is my favorite. Anywhere you can catch a salmon, ski and play golf in the same day -- the NW trifecta -- is a good place, although a bit far from the Pine Curtain. There's a recent musing about Bend on the MIAC board, another beautiful part of the state.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 09:43:16 PM
Well,
I actually have plenty of Pacific Northwest experience in Washington State and Northern Idaho, but that was my first Oregon trip. I have a friend out here who's wife is from Bend. Sounds like a great place, but it's a long ride from nowhere.

Portland was pretty cool, it was just one of these deals, like you said, with the construction and one-ways, I could see where I wanted to get, and I could drive to where I wanted to get, but I was never on the proper side of the road to park, and when I went to do that, it took six blocks to turn around. :)

Ate at a Greek place, I forget the name, but it had a purple Octopus out front. 4th and Washington maybe?

Glad you enjoyed the ATN. Without too many quotes from coaches or game stuff, I realized it was going to be one of those travel-tour Around the Nations. As often is the case, I had no idea how long it was getting. I write for an hour or two a day (night) and then try to edit it Wednesday night and go 'daaaaang."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 10:08:24 PM
Some samples from the NWC board:

Quote from: RedandPurple on September 15, 2007, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: runyr on September 15, 2007, 08:46:40 PM
94 point game:  Fans sure got their money's worth of offense today.

You got that right. I got worn out listening to it on the internet.
olinemom, Pat, and Keith picked a great game to attend.
Safe trip home for all.

Quote from: Tuxguy on September 15, 2007, 10:41:50 PMI also just got home from the game, and I've got to say...........WOW!
First.......
Enjoyed meeting Olinemom, Pat,  Keith and Criswyly.  D.O.C. as always good to see you, and sorry about the seats I know I will hear about it for awhile. What a great game for everyone  to come and see in beautiful Oregon. Great day, sun was out and temp was perfect, 70's.

Quote from: Wildcat'64 on September 16, 2007, 10:57:50 PMCoco,

How were Olinemom's "nationwide famous brownies"?  I suspect with that group of hungry vultures they didn't last very long!   Needless to say Olinemom, Pat and Keith could not have picked a better game to attend than Saturday (unless they had been at the Catdome for the Whitewater show stopper game of two years ago).  8)

Had to catch that one on video. It was a great game though.

Quote from: criswyly on September 17, 2007, 10:31:42 AMOh man...am I glad we won that one....The Coco's and Tuxguy's, Wildcat11, Swede, O-linemom, Pat & Keith and even some weirdo from Mongolia were all there.  Rumor had it that even Bluenote was somewhere in the vicinity.  Even the cheerleaders showed up at the tailgate party....Thanks for all the eats and drinks there...I know that takes a lot of work.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on September 20, 2007, 10:29:14 PM
K-Mack

Great ATN piece!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on September 20, 2007, 11:37:54 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 09:43:16 PM
Well,
I actually have plenty of Pacific Northwest experience in Washington State and Northern Idaho, but that was my first Oregon trip. I have a friend out here who's wife is from Bend. Sounds like a great place, but it's a long ride from nowhere.

Portland was pretty cool, it was just one of these deals, like you said, with the construction and one-ways, I could see where I wanted to get, and I could drive to where I wanted to get, but I was never on the proper side of the road to park, and when I went to do that, it took six blocks to turn around. :)

Ate at a Greek place, I forget the name, but it had a purple Octopus out front. 4th and Washington maybe?

Glad you enjoyed the ATN. Without too many quotes from coaches or game stuff, I realized it was going to be one of those travel-tour Around the Nations. As often is the case, I had no idea how long it was getting. I write for an hour or two a day (night) and then try to edit it Wednesday night and go 'daaaaang."

I wrote 2,100 words on my latest East Region column, your columns are probably twice the size of that. But every word is damn good!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2007, 12:55:16 AM
Thanks, I definitely appreciate the notice.

Just trying to do my part to help the fast readers kill 15 minutes at work every Thursday and the crafty vets who know how to read half, take a coffee/smoke break, then come back, kill 30-45.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2007, 12:58:53 AM
A couple more from the NWC board. Gotta run, so I'm moving them here to remind myself to respond later, if nothing else (they also, strangely, fit the theme of this board)

Quote from: Tuxguy on September 20, 2007, 07:50:58 PM
Pat and Keith,

Great story on your trip to the wild west.
It was nice talking with you guys, and thanks for the photo of my sign
in the around the nation write up.

That's just the way we are out here, we love our team, our food and drink and we welcome every one to join in with us.
The Johnies, Warhawks, and many others have joined in before the Cats hit the field.

GO WILDCATS
LEAVE NO DOUBT

Quote from: Wildcat'64 on September 21, 2007, 12:28:22 AM
Keith,

Nice article on your weekend trip.  In a span of a very few hours you very effectively captured the "spirit of the Catdome".  Most posters realize their is NO DOME over Maxwell Field but rather their is an "aura" that encompasses Linfield and specifically Maxwell Field when the Cats take the field on any given Saturday.

The only thing I think you may have missed is the start of the 4th quarter at the Catdome when every Wildcat fan and player raises his arm and has "4 fingers in the air"....a tradition that started in the Ad Rutschman era because his teams were noted for coming back in the 4th quarter and winning close ball games.

Thanks again for taking the time to come West.  Long live d3Football!   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Foss on September 21, 2007, 12:52:17 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 09:43:16 PM
Ate at a Greek place, I forget the name, but it had a purple Octopus out front. 4th and Washington maybe?

K-Mack, that place with the funky purple Octopus on the front is the "Greek Cusina." In the evenings, a belly dancer appears and shakes about (no $1's required) in the upstairs portion of the restaurant. It's typical Portland, you never know quite what to expect......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2007, 02:04:00 PM
Yeah, that was the place. They started bumping the music right before we left, and my sister wanted to go upstairs, but her boyfriend was looking for a more relaxing atmosphere. We went to Hubert's, which looked like the nightly meat market (nice enough place though) and didn't stay, and passed a pool hall en route to the Red Star Hotel, I think, which was very quiet and swanky ... and had repeated highlights of Notre Dame getting pummled!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on September 24, 2007, 01:10:03 AM
Don't know if they still do it, but you used to be able to dance on the tables and smash plates on the floor...pretty classic...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on September 24, 2007, 07:55:36 AM
Damn..............how did we miss that place in 05?   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 25, 2007, 01:38:32 AM
I am definitely going to give said boyfriend a hard time for insisting we go somewhere quieter.

That sounds pretty memorable.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Just Bill on September 26, 2007, 04:11:36 PM
Quote from: Wildcat'64 on September 21, 2007, 12:28:22 AM
The only thing I think you may have missed is the start of the 4th quarter at the Catdome when every Wildcat fan and player raises his arm and has "4 fingers in the air"....a tradition that started in the Ad Rutschman era because his teams were noted for coming back in the 4th quarter and winning close ball games.

This is one of those things that EVERY team does, and EVERY team is positive they were the first to do it.

It's like trying to figure out who invented the knock-knock joke.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hustle on September 26, 2007, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 20, 2007, 09:43:16 PM
Well,
I actually have plenty of Pacific Northwest experience in Washington State and Northern Idaho, but that was my first Oregon trip. I have a friend out here who's wife is from Bend. Sounds like a great place, but it's a long ride from nowhere.
I will say I am said friend (at least I believe so). It's worth the three-hour drive from PDX if you consider that we get free golf and free drinks for as long as we're there.  :D

I grew up in Pa. and have lived on the East Coast all of my life. Were it not for missing my family and my wife's rather successful career, I would have moved there long ago. Seattle, Olympia, Vancouver (Wash.), Portland, Boise, Ketchum, Idaho (if I could afford it), wherever. I love the pace of life (laid back vs. bustle in the east) and the decided lack of humidity. When it's hot and you sweat, it dries - what a concept!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Just Bill on September 27, 2007, 01:52:56 PM
Keith,

Small correction in this week's ATN column.  You said UW-Whitewater had beaten Azusa Pacific two weeks ago.  That was actually UW-La Crosse who beat APU in OT.

Great work as usual.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2007, 08:55:40 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on September 27, 2007, 01:52:56 PM
Keith,

Small correction in this week's ATN column.  You said UW-Whitewater had beaten Azusa Pacific two weeks ago.  That was actually UW-La Crosse who beat APU in OT.

Great work as usual.

Good Lord.

Also had to fix the out-of-conference numbers in that column due to giving UWW credit for its playoff win over UWL last season and vice versa.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2007, 08:58:34 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on September 26, 2007, 04:11:36 PM
Quote from: Wildcat'64 on September 21, 2007, 12:28:22 AM
The only thing I think you may have missed is the start of the 4th quarter at the Catdome when every Wildcat fan and player raises his arm and has "4 fingers in the air"....a tradition that started in the Ad Rutschman era because his teams were noted for coming back in the 4th quarter and winning close ball games.

This is one of those things that EVERY team does, and EVERY team is positive they were the first to do it.

It's like trying to figure out who invented the knock-knock joke.

Sorta true, I remember doing the four fingers in high school, but the fans all joining in I guess is unique.

Needless to say, I didn't notice it enough to put it in the column ... maybe I was too busy fiddling with the expensive camera Pat let me hold (and even shoot pictures with!)

JB, thanks for the heads up on La Crosse, BTW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on September 27, 2007, 10:20:19 PM
This year, at least, Case Western Reserve is better than at least the bottom 70% of NCAC.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2007, 10:58:37 PM
We'll see where Wooster ends up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 28, 2007, 01:46:06 AM
Quote from: AUPepBand on September 27, 2007, 09:46:12 PM
K-Mack:
Thanks for the shout out for Alfred in ATN. It's evident you do your homework. Pep is still amazed at the Saxons' dominance of an outstanding Springfield football team. But a team is only as good as its next game... Go AU; keep your nose to the grindstone.

AU,
Hope you don't mind me moving this here since it's about ATN.

I would have liked to get a chance to call up there and write a feature, but it just wasn't in the cards this week, and plus I'd promised I'd revisit the conference rankings, so this worked out.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 28, 2007, 02:15:48 AM
Oh, a little gratuitous self-love never killed anyone. I actually have some interesting stuff from my inbox to share with the die-hards, if I ever get around to it.


Quote from: K-Mack on September 26, 2007, 03:45:11 AM
Quote from: Presto on September 25, 2007, 06:44:29 PM
i don't know if this is the place to post it but you guys do a great job with this website kmack i really enjoy reading your stories good job everyone.

You can post that on any thread you want to.  ;)

Quote from: Presto on September 26, 2007, 08:20:30 AM
lol kmack ok its true this is a great site.

Quote from: Rick Akins on September 27, 2007, 10:53:53 AM
K-Mack:

You ARE the Mount Union of the message board!!  Great analysis of the top 25 right now and why so many OAC teams are so high.  Makes sense to me!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on September 28, 2007, 08:19:50 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2007, 10:58:37 PM
We'll see where Wooster ends up.

Or OWU maybe.  Or more to the point how CWRU does against them. I suppose I was remiss to dismiss them.

Thanx for the love in The Dose!

BTW as to leaving the NCAC there were 5 UAA teams then.  There was a quote from Coach Debeljak after the Wooster game suggesting he would favor the UAA teams joining the NCAC.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on September 28, 2007, 08:21:06 AM
Quote from: OxyBob on September 28, 2007, 07:21:42 AM
Dear K-Mack:

Quote from: K-Mack on September 28, 2007, 02:15:48 AM
Oh, a little gratuitous self-love never killed anyone.

We completely agree.

Sincerely,

The Divinyls

:D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 01, 2007, 01:10:56 AM
A little love please for my Jackets, comfortably 4-1, a TD from being unbeaten and no longer causing me to say "what the heck is going on down there?"

Right on, Senor Arruza!

(and now the sked gets tougher  ;) )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 01, 2007, 04:05:14 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 01, 2007, 01:10:56 AM
A little love please for my Jackets, comfortably 4-1, a TD from being unbeaten and no longer causing me to say "what the heck is going on down there?"

Right on, Senor Arruza!

(and now the sked gets tougher  ;) )

Of courese "Senor" Arruza learned everything he knows as an all american at Wheaton College!! ;D ;D

Good stuff for the RMC. I am glad they are having success under Pedro.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: billrt66 on October 02, 2007, 12:34:07 PM
Pat:  Your thoughts?  Should Franklin have been left out of the playoffs last year?  You saw the classic that the rematch with Wabash turned out to be the first weeknd of this season.  Who do you like in the rematch with Mt. St. Joseph on October 13th?  This is as exciting an offensive football team as there is in all of Div. III.  If Chad Rupp isn't in the mix as a first team Div. III All American I can't imagine why!  Also, please check out the Grizzlie's new website, GrizzlyBall.com....it is an awesome site and includes a lot of great information, highlights of recent games, etc.
Thanks,
Bill
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 02, 2007, 02:05:02 PM
Quote from: billrt66 on October 02, 2007, 12:34:07 PM
...If Chad Rupp isn't in the mix as a first team Div. III All American I can't imagine why! 

Why not?

Level of competition.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 02, 2007, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: billrt66 on October 02, 2007, 12:34:07 PM
Pat:  Your thoughts?  Should Franklin have been left out of the playoffs last year?  You saw the classic that the rematch with Wabash turned out to be the first weeknd of this season.  Who do you like in the rematch with Mt. St. Joseph on October 13th?  This is as exciting an offensive football team as there is in all of Div. III.  If Chad Rupp isn't in the mix as a first team Div. III All American I can't imagine why!

Go get out and see Greg Micheli before you anoint your QB the best in the nation. There are 238 starting quarterbacks in Division III.

Not sure rehashing 2006 is worthwhile when we're halfway through the 2007 season.

Is that a team site or a fan site or what?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2007, 12:24:38 AM
Quote from: usee on October 01, 2007, 04:05:14 PM
Of courese "Senor" Arruza learned everything he knows as an all american at Wheaton College!! ;D ;D

Good stuff for the RMC. I am glad they are having success under Pedro.

Mike Swider spoke very highly of Coach Arruza and I am glad to see him finally have some success.

I only wish I had contacted him when they were down so I don't look like a bandwagon-hopper whenever we do meet.

Then again, I've been down with R-MC for almost 15 years now, so maybe I'll get a pass.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2007, 04:47:38 AM
Well, I'll talk Texas trip in a day or so, but just working back through some old e-mail and found this suggestion from Eugene McGivern at St. Thomas. We weren't able to do it, but he put too much work into the e-mail to let it sit there and go to waste.

QuoteKeith/Pat/Ryan:

Just wanted to pass along for either a column note or an actual trip idea
for an interesting day of d3football in the Twin Cities area on Sept. 15.

The games certainly aren't great top-10 showdowns, but there's some
interesting flavor with enrollments ranging from St. Thomas 5,400 undergrads
to Crown and Rockford's 700 students. (other quick notes below)

It looks like the one day this fall where a person could attend parts of 5-6
college games in one day (a couple of more if you charter a helicopter --
that's in the budget, right?). I don't know if other Metro areas can offer
this many games within about a 25-mile radius.

Option 1 Twin Cities only -- Sat. Sept. 15:

Noon--Maranatha Bible at Crown (20 miles west of Mpls.)
Maranatha, founded in 1968, probably among smaller teams in U.S. (Last year
50 players started season, four under 150 pounds, four home schooled in high
school)... Crown had 47 players last season

1 p.m.: Gustavus at St. Thomas (25 minutes from Crown campus)
76th all-time meeting, teams have played every season since 1952... UST
leads series 38-35-2... six of last 10 meetings decided by three or less
points... St. Thomas' home opener after two road games in Iowa... UST has
just four home games for first time since 1966... Toms expect more than 150
to report for fall camp, Gusties over 100... Gusties have new stadium...
teams are combined 0-18 vs. St. John's over last nine seasons

1 p.m.: St. Olaf at Hamline (3 miles from St. Thomas)
Hamline founded in 1854 (oldest college/university in Minnesota), starting
115th season of football... stadium renovated in 2005... Pipers have new
head coach Jim Good who's football resume has asst. coaching stops at
Linfield, Illinois College and Texas Lutheran... Hamline D-Coordinator is
ex-Stout head coach Todd Strop... St. Olaf is 23-7 in last three seasons and
on paper could easily be 5-0 when it visits St. John's Oct. 6

1 p.m.: Rockford at Northwestern (5 miles from Hamline)
Northwestern's coaching staff includes asst. Scott Hvistendahl (40 TDs,
4,693 yards, 285 catches), D3 record holder in receiving from Augsburg

6 p.m.: Carleton at Macalester (8 miles from Roseville)

Carleton, in 111th season of varsity football, went winless at recently as
2001 and 2002, but was a deceiving 4-6 last season under first-year coach
Kurt Ramler with an upset win over Bethel, four defeats by five or less
points, and a 10-point loss at St. John's... Macalester, starting 112th
season of varsity football, was winless in 2005 but Scots are looking to
climb under second-year coach Glenn Caruso... Actually is a non-conference
game since Macalester starts season six as independent... These are the two
most elite academic schools in the MIAC so it's sometimes called the Brain
Bowl.. both rosters filled with out-of-state players

Option 2

Same as above but could try to work in 45-minute trip across border for Pac
Lutheran at UW-River Falls with a 1:30 p.m. start (your website says 4:30
p.m. start but both schools' websites say 1:30)

Option 3
Some combination of above and a fast car/plane ride to St. Cloud to catch
end of 1 p.m. Augsburg at St. John's and start of 6 p.m. game between
Whitewater and D-II St. Cloud State

Option 4
Could cheat and mix in some videocasts (Hamline, possibly
Concordia-Moorhead)

Option 5
Delay extraganza until Oct. 20 and get the helicopter
1 p.m.: UW-River Falls at UW-Stout
1 p.m.: Trinity Bible at Northwestern
1 p.m.: Upper Iowa at Concordia-St. Paul (this is D-II game between ex-D-III
members but wanted to check to see if you are still reading)
TBA start: North Dakota State at Minnesota Gophers (in case you want to hear
really good marching band)
1 p.m.: Concordia-Moorhead at St. Thomas (Homecoming)
1 p.m. St. John's at Hamline
Head south 40 minutes:
1 p.m.: Bethel at St. Olaf (St. Olaf coach Chris Meidt vs. his alma mater)
Crosstown in Northfield:
1 p.m.: Augsburg at Carleton
Head west 30 minutes to St. Peter:
1 p.m.: Macalester at Gustavus (Gusties in first season of new stadium)

Let me know if you want me to provide any more background

Thanks

Gene
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2007, 05:08:21 AM
For anyone who has followed my longstanding dislike for Gregg Easterbrook and his penchant for talking out of his hindquarters about Division III football -- mostly Mount Union -- please make your way over to the Running Up The Score thread for an update.

Dude is a real dumb ass for a smart guy.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 03, 2007, 10:23:22 AM
K-Mack - need to chill. In my reading, he lambastes Pittsburg State more than anything.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2007, 11:01:47 AM
Quote from: smedindy on October 03, 2007, 10:23:22 AM
K-Mack - need to chill. In my reading, he lambastes Pittsburg State more than anything.
Respectfully, smed.

Keith is out there for us D-3'ers.  I want him pushing high quality journalistic standards.  And, I want ESPN hearing it about his quality of journalism.

He said it best about Easterbrook.

QuoteDude is a real dumb ass for a smart guy.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2007, 11:38:48 AM
Quote from: smedindy on October 03, 2007, 10:23:22 AM
K-Mack - need to chill. In my reading, he lambastes Pittsburg State more than anything.

Well, it's not so much that it's Mount Union, in that more bashing of D2 would change my mind.

It's the overall arrogance on this topic, apparently that he knows so much about sportsmanship that he can rail against these programs without ever getting to know them. And, absent that, since I know he doesn't really "cover" football, he could at least consider basic logic, like perhaps Team X (be it Pittsburg or Mount Union or whoever) is that much better than the most of the teams it's required to play, due to conference affiliation. The notion that losing in the playoffs is just desserts for their evil deed of being really good shows at least a basic misunderstanding of how games are scheduled and what these final scores really mean.

When you say crap like Mount Union purposely schedules Heidelberg so they can beat on them, or that they scheduled six home games to gain an advantage without simply checking to see if they had six road games the year before, it demonstrates an overall crappiness that I can't tolerate.

This has gone on for a long time, this is not the first time. Ralph, you might be on to something. Maybe it's his editors who need to know. Not that they would ever censor a columnist, but the notes would have more effect there than they do getting lost in his inbox.

'Chill' works well for some other people; not me so much. It's why I stay off most of the boards. I do a fine job ignoring him (and other fools) when I can truly ignore them. Once I know, it's hard for me not to respond.  ;D

I probably wouldn't care if it weren't a column that has an audience, mostly made up of people who will never take the time to learn enough about the topics to know how off-base this guy is. At least when he talks about the NFL, people have watched games or followed teams to the point where they can choose to agree or disagree.

In the former situation, I think you have a responsibility to be something other than a know-nothing blowhard. But that seems to work for a lot of people in my line of work, so I can't say I'm stunned.

I guess he thinks because very few of his readers can check him on the details that he can get away without doing basic background. It's stuff that could get you reprimanded or removed were it happening repeatedly about a level of football the masses (and bosses) follow.

He is to column writing what he thinks Mount Union is to college football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 03, 2007, 12:36:21 PM
I understand, but I want to see his response to my email (and others) in his follow up today. However, his insights are valued in many other aspects of football so I give him a little pass and a lot more leeway than some total eediot like Simmons - or some toady like Buster Olney.

He's moved from Slate to ESPN to NFL.com and now back to ESPN under a new Page 2 regime. So you may be right about the editors.

Anyway, he really should be lambasting Texas Tech and he does.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2007, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 03, 2007, 12:36:21 PM
I understand, but I want to see his response to my email (and others) in his follow up today. However, his insights are valued in many other aspects of football so I give him a little pass and a lot more leeway than some total eediot like Simmons - or some toady like Buster Olney.

Thanks smed for your thoughts...   :)

I use the assessment of how he treats subjects over which I have a good understanding as a barometer of how he treats all topics, including those over which I have less knowledge.

How do I know that he is more of an authority on those topics?  He might be just as careless on those topics.

In the age of internet news, it makes every intelligent reader his/her own news editor, seeking divers sources and opinions and thinking thru them for one's self.  The effect of that is to raise the level of serious discourse among those who discuss these issues.

Humbly, I will take my chances...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 03, 2007, 02:49:32 PM
One thing from other posts that Pat has called me on is that I now believe it is the editor's fault more than anything.  I think that the editor's don't do and feet holding to the fire.  Check sources or even read things any more.  I did not rail on an article in the Des Moines Register I believe it was week #2.  The Central little paragragh was a paragraph about the Simpson game with Bethel.  Now you can't tell me the editor read it and proofed it.  I know mistakes happen but when they are made I think it hurts you guys that work hard to get it right.  I have been trying to watch what negative comments I make about the media (since Pat informed me you guys are the media).  I have never seen a time when you guys have gotten things flat out wrong and I commend D3 for that.  Typos and mistakes will happen I am sure but like you said K-Mack to not research and assume things are not in anyones best interests. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 03, 2007, 09:50:31 PM
  Just a thought.... Maybe someone should invite Mr. Easterbrook here to the
Posts  Patterns to read about Mt. Union and the rest of DIII football. Then maybe he would have something better to write about. Like the number of people here with a passion for DIII. Or the knowledge of those people. How many DI fans know anything about the fans of there opponents? How many DI gurus go out of there way to meet fans at every game they attend? Or for that matter exchange ideas with those fans. And have a full time job to boot??? Not many places where so many people from so many places can intermingle and agree to disagree.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 03, 2007, 10:52:28 PM
I did that in my email PA_wesleyfan. Maybe I should tell him I also bought his book, too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2007, 04:51:38 PM
Yeah,
I mean, I guess I'm hard on him because I've twice gone out of my way to send detailed e-mails explaining why he should reconsider his Mount Union stance. Clearly he hasn't taken them to heart and is instead obsessed with the scores and scores only, which is obviously annoying to me, having wasted my time e-mailing him.

I mean, it's cool to agree to disagree like people did over Hardin-Simmons being ranked when they were 0-2.

But you can tell by Gregg's work that he is too smart to be making such JV mistakes.

I try hard not to come off as D3 fanatic, as I am a fan of all kinds of football, but I'm afraid sometimes that's all we're seen as. Whenever I wonder, I think about how I perceive(d) D2 or NAIA, and then try to project that on what a I-A only fan would say/think about D3.

In this sense, it does sometimes make me wonder if people are sloppy about D3 facts because they don't know or don't care to know, in that they know they can say whatever and get away with it because 97% of the readership can't check them on it.

Also, it goes back too to Pat's Daily Dose post. Chris Allman actually put it best when he said people look at D3 as sort of News of the Weird.

Anyway, it's an interesting topic.

Do you think if you made an offhand comment about NAIA, let's say, and some NAIA fanatic challenged you to come over to their turf and take the time to get to know them, would you really go?

I mean, I think that's a nice idea PA, and I shouldn't make someone else's decision for them by refusing to extend the invite, but I'm pretty sure that's a blow-off waiting to happen. Besides, the boards have always been open to anyone who cared to seek us out and follow along.

You never know who's lurking anyway. I was once told Rece Davis was like 'that guy knows everything about D3' from an insider D3 alum (not Mark) at ESPN. Don't know if that's true, but could be an example ...

I always liked that guy on-air anyway :)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2007, 04:51:59 PM
Smed, definitely lead with that you're a fan of the column and you bought the book. As a receiver of what we'll call 'fan e-mail' as well as an occasional sender, I always try to frame my remarks in the way that I would want them framed.

In other words, don't sound like a nutbag with an axe to grind, don't just slander without coherently explaining your point, and be organized and well-thought out. Also, previous Easterbrook e-mail aside, any of my digs are subtle and backed with some kind of evidence that's it's not a personal vendetta I have, just a concern with the actual final work.

(guilty of sending one of those to a painfully unfunny Yahoo! fantasy columnist recently who was running mailbag mail praising himself for being so funny ... Love Yahoo!, and like that guy's fantasy stuff, but please don't be not funny and then pat yourself on the back for being funny :) )

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2007, 04:53:41 PM
OK, meant to show up and post that an afternoon's worth of updates to ATN have been posted. I think I updated (or posted new) five sections.

Two other random things:

Let's get this guy (http://nusports.cstv.com/sports/m-soccer/mtt/coleman_pat00.html) an I'm Pat Coleman T-Shirt.

Also, anyone else getting the Real Jock banner ad?  :o
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2007, 05:06:35 PM
Responding to part of a post from Top 25 Rankings:

Quote from: DutchFan2004 on October 03, 2007, 02:36:48 PM
I really have enjoyed your pod cast of ATN.  I have forgot to give you to props for that.  It really gives a feel for what has gone on over the week end.  Thanks to Pat and K-Mack for all you two do for the D3 kids. 

Thanks for that. I guess there isn't much to comment on, but the lack of comments in the Dose sometimes make me wonder if anyone is listening. As long as you are, we'll probably keep doing it.

It definitely helps me get my mind right for the week ahead too. Not that it helped on getting this week's column up early, but I'll blame that on doing some bookkeeping from back in August when I normally would've been knocking out column items. :)

The podcast is fun and definitely one way I/we felt we needed to be able to connect with our readers in this new multimedia age. Hopefully we can stay on the cutting edge and still be able to deliver what people want, and as you noted, what Division III football deserves.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 04, 2007, 07:23:16 PM
I sent it on Tuesday. It was long, detailed, thorough. I think he got deluged.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2007, 08:13:49 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 04, 2007, 07:23:16 PM
I sent it on Tuesday. It was long, detailed, thorough. I think he got deluged.

If you're still talking about Easterbrook, you ain't kidding. Went over to my insane non-stop fantasy league message board, and they were firing him hate mail because he won't stop ragging on Belichick. (That league is like 3/5ths Boston fans, and now is a great time to be among them, let me tell you.  ::) Red Sox, Pats and now the Cs)

Anyway,
Landed here safely -- even after the triple flight; avoid that when possible :) -- and met up with Ralph Turner, who is my acting guide for the weekend (so far at least) ... Very much appreciated, as it was with Wildcat11 in Oregon.

Always good to have a local mind give you a few tips, then set you free to get a feel for the place on your own.

Friday Night Lights, here I come. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 05, 2007, 08:26:54 PM
KMack, you need to report back on the game, games you see tonight, it would be greatly appreciated.  Would love to see a friday night game in Texas someday in my lifetime.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 08, 2007, 12:17:55 AM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 05, 2007, 08:26:54 PM
KMack, you need to report back on the game, games you see tonight, it would be greatly appreciated.  Would love to see a friday night game in Texas someday in my lifetime.

Went ahead and did this, just for you. (OK, for me too).

I tried to catch two, half and half, but the second one was a dud, already 41-0 when I got there (and they were still charging admission at the start of the 3rd) and it wasn't even a local team, it was two teams using Abilene as a midpoint (travel in Texas & the ASC is something else, let me tell you), so the stadium was virtually empty. It had been a long day with the three flights and all, so I just scrapped it.

The first game was more of a small-town deal (3A Wylie vs. Wimberly, if that means anything to you) and it was exactly how you think it would be. Everyone and their mom was there, it was out of control in a good way ...

Hopefully I'll be able to squeeze some of that in the column this week, but who knows.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 08, 2007, 01:08:35 PM
Great Pod cast to both of you.  That really gives a recap of the games that affect D3 football. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Sakman 1111 on October 08, 2007, 01:26:35 PM
Awesome podcast .....don't know much about schools outside the the Midwest so very informative for me....If games keep going according to plan the MHB vs. UWW should be a great one to circle on your calendar but certainly UWW at least has some tough ones before Texas comes calling.....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: voice on October 08, 2007, 01:47:24 PM
I agree with Sakman... the Keith and Pat's weekly podcast definitely puts some perspective on D3 games around the nation.  It is a must listen every Monday morning for me.

Their is plenty of water that has to go over the dam prior to Oct. 27th, but Mary Hardin-Baylor's trip to the "Perk" in Whitewater is much anticipated.

Sure hope ATN can make Whitewater its home on the final weekend of October.  You can set up in the KOOL 106.5 box if you would like.  Its computer ready for you! :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 08, 2007, 03:28:23 PM
Gee, you're sure that some university muckety-muck isn't taking up that space in the press box? We're not interested in working from the roof.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 08, 2007, 03:40:19 PM
Hey, I resemble that remark.  Sometimes.  In my dreams.   :-X
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 08, 2007, 03:43:46 PM
Not to the extent at that place, where they want to put the NCAA's official video crew broadcasters on the roof in December.

We've got other battles to fight. Not worth it there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 08, 2007, 04:19:37 PM
Pat,

You don't think the weather will be nice that time of year in WW? :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 11, 2007, 05:37:02 AM
Hey,
Just wanted to say to anyone who might be reading ... the e-mail you are sending is great. I plan to share some of it, and have been squeezing tidbits in where possible, but the columns have been so full lately I just can't get to all of it. I am reading it. Maybe if next week is the Midseason Review like I think it will be, I can do The First Half In E-Mail or something.

I just finished the column. Did it in an unprecedented one 7-hour sitting (was off work tonight to watch the kids; them going to sleep @ 9:30-10 made it possible).

Point is, I have gobs of Texas stuff that I couldn't even get in. Stuff about the high school games, from an impromptu sitdown with Donny Gray, coach at McMurry ... stuff from meeting an ETBU coach and signing my first autograph. Just the general West Texas thing ... Abilene is midway between Odessa/Midland, which might mean something to you football fans, and Dallas.

Anyway, the plan is to get here by Friday and share some of that stuff with the die-hard board readers, rather than let it rot away in my notebook and brain.

Also, yeah, Whitewater is weirdly cooperative.

Thanks for the kind words about the podcast. Always good to know someone is listening :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 11, 2007, 03:21:52 PM
Nice column (as usual), but there is no identification w/ the front page photo.  I recognize you from your column photo (and I wouldn't know the student in the costume anyway), but is that our own Ralph Turner with you?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 11, 2007, 03:27:17 PM
Yep, that is indeed the esteemed Dr. Turner.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 11, 2007, 03:31:19 PM
Thanks.  While we've become internet friends, I've never had the pleasure of meeting him.  I was guessing it was either Ralph or the coach, and the d3sports connection made Ralph seem more likely.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2007, 05:57:09 PM
It is Ralph. However, since I don't have an ID on the student in the middle it was more prudent to ID nobody.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2007, 10:05:25 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2007, 05:57:09 PM
It is Ralph. However, since I don't have an ID on the student in the middle it was more prudent to ID nobody.
I want to thank Keith and Pat for the support that we have received at McMurry.  The McMurry family is ecstatic that Keith caught the essence of how we feel about Homecoming.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 11, 2007, 10:25:44 PM
Pretty nice work, Keith.  Thanks for allowing me to be a part of it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 11, 2007, 10:36:25 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2007, 05:57:09 PM
It is Ralph. However, since I don't have an ID on the student in the middle it was more prudent to ID nobody.

This had been taken care of by the time I signed on today.

I knew him as Todd, the cross country kid ... I left my notebook that morning, thinking Ralph and I were going to breakfast, checking out the scene at Tipi Village (which I had seen the night before) and then planning to catch up later at the game. Luckily, knowing we had access to Ralph, I didn't have to write the kid's last name on my hand.

Ralph showed me around campus from about 8 to 12. :)

Lots of great stuff left over from that which I couldn't squeeze into the column this week. Hope to share some here later.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: billrt66 on October 12, 2007, 12:23:04 PM
Pat:  Franklin knocks off Mt. St. Joe on the road tomorrow?......finally will the Grizzlies get some respect and be ranked???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: billrt66 on October 12, 2007, 12:47:11 PM
Pat:  Grizzlyball.com is a site which began this year for Franklin fans, alums and students to keep up with highlights, stats, etc.  It is managed by a group of students with cooperation from the football office.  For a DIII football program, it seems very well done to me.
Thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 12, 2007, 01:21:29 PM
Saw that site earlier today. Interesting arrangement.

Given than an undefeated MSJ can't get ranked, I imagine it would be several weeks before Franklin could move up into the top 25, since they already have a loss. IMHO.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 12, 2007, 01:27:07 PM
OK, I promised a few off-the-beaten path Texas updates that I couldn't squeeze into the column.

Here's one:

Where did I mention the autograph, on the ATN board? Funny story, I wanted to get it in the column but just ran out of time.

Sitting next to a reporter from medium-to-small-sized Texas paper at HSU/UMHB. He tells me his daughter reads the site all the time. OK, not too uncommon a thing to hear. And she's 42. Nothing wrong with that.

Then he says he's forbidden to disagree with me when they talk D3 football at the dinner table. If I've written it, it's gospel, he says.

Well that's not such a bad thing, is it? Kinda funny.

Then, as the UMHB game gets out of hand, he asks if I would sign the media guide for his daughter. Sure, I figure, as long as too many of the real journalists don't give me the evil eye. How can you say no to an autograph request, right? :)

Then the reporter calls his daughter in the stands -- from press row -- and says "Guess who I'm sitting next to? Keith McMillan!"

Definitely an odd moment.

I meant to give "Donna" I shout in the column, but just ran out of time.

So much more stuff from Texas, hopefully I can find time to share.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: billrt66 on October 12, 2007, 01:37:02 PM
K Mack:  Yesterday's (Thursday) USA Today had the Div. III rankings and they had Wabash 10th and Mt. St. Joe 14th.  Interesting that D3.Com is that different?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 12, 2007, 01:44:50 PM
rt66: Welcome back. We added a link to Grizzlyball.com when you started this conversation a few weeks back. :)

The coaches' poll always has some odd results. I like our track record.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 12, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
Quote from: billrt66 on October 12, 2007, 01:37:02 PM
K Mack:  Yesterday's (Thursday) USA Today had the Div. III rankings and they had Wabash 10th and Mt. St. Joe 14th.  Interesting that D3.Com is that different?

Yes, interesting, but not at all surprising.

Many newspapers, including USA Today, publish the coaches' association rankings, in this case is the AFCA. It especially behooves USAT to back the AFCA, since they are the purveyor/partner in the Division I-A coaches poll.

No poll is perfectly accurate, and even if it were, teams don't necessarily play to their capabilities each week.

But, it's generally understood that the AFCA poll gives respect to undefeated teams, regardless of conference affliation. I have not looked at that poll recently, but I can virtually guarantee there's not but one or two teams with a loss in the top 15 at this point in the season.

D3football.com voters have generally given more respect to strength of schedule and conference strength, to the point where our poll doesn't necessarily reflect the AFCA poll.

We believe our poll, which mixes coaches, SID and media balanced to the different regions across the country, is an improved model because the mix negates the inherent biases or time constraints each group might have. Particularly, coaches' polls are difficult because coaches have a primary interest in their own teams during the season, and although they have insight that other people don't have (mostly through watching film of other teams and talking to fellow coaches), sometimes that insight can be limited to the area or region in which they play.

I'm sure the AFCA poll is regionally-balanced however, it's just typically been friendly to any team who has not yet lost, regardless of who it has played, or who teams with one loss have played.

FWIW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on October 12, 2007, 04:11:12 PM
D3 plug on ESPN...

Quote from: Stlarry on October 12, 2007, 04:08:29 PM
RPI made it onto ESPN today, albeit on Page 2:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/amjump?page=amjump/071012 (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/amjump?page=amjump/071012)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: billrt66 on October 14, 2007, 12:00:01 AM
Pat:  Well the Grizzlies did it!!  Went on the road to Mt. St. Joe and beat the Lions 28-19.....now they control their own destiny as far as the winning the conference and making the National Playoffs is concerned.  Besides being a Grizzly fan I am also a Kentucky fan and I was in Lexington today and witnessed the Cats upset # 1 ranked LSU!!!!!   Nothing like college football!!!!!  Nothing!!!!  I believe!!!!  Go Grizzlies.....Go Cats!!!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 14, 2007, 02:50:46 AM
Yep, I think neither Keith nor I are surprised, either.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 15, 2007, 12:13:55 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 12, 2007, 01:58:07 PM
D3football.com voters have generally given more respect to strength of schedule and conference strength, to the point where our poll doesn't necessarily reflect the AFCA poll.

FWIW.

However, it seems that D3football.com voters have recently given little respect to our faithful ATN columnist, who pointed out that undefeated Muhlenberg [currently ranked 24] defeated higher ranked College of New Jersey [22], who defeated still higher ranked Montclair State [15], who defeated top ten ranked Wesley [10].  I suppose that a voter could claim that regional and conference differences explain the Muhlenberg paradox, but New Jersey and Montclair State are in the same conference--what justifies Montclair State's significantly higher ranking relative to New Jersey?

Maybe it makes sense from the top down:

No. 10 ranked ACFC member and South Region Pool B contender Wesley's only loss was to no. 15 Montclair State of the East Region's NJAC.  Montclair State's only loss came to its NJAC conference mate New Jersey, currently ranked 22.  New Jersey also has only one loss, a shutout loss to undefeated no. 24 Muhlenberg of the Centennial Conference, in the South Region.  Muhlenberg's record also includes a 34-0 win over 4-2 Union, of the East Region's Liberty League.

. . . nope, that just makes it look like a description of water flowing uphill.  Keith, aren't your voters reading your column?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 15, 2007, 12:44:18 AM
redswarm,
I noticed that too, that I have zero effect on the pollsters. They're definitely not MY voters, and you know it's not a fix.

I tried to look at it the other way too, like if Muhlenberg and TCNJ had played a bunch of weak nobodies while Wesley and Montclair played power schedules. Initially, those schedules looked pretty good, but Wilkes and Springfield for Montclair don't quite have the luster they once did. Wesley played a lot of good teams, but I think their ranking is more a product of them starting so high and people not wanting to drop them more than a certain number of spots from where they had them. Esp. since it's a 1-point loss to a good team in Montclair. Plus also, Wesley's loss seems almost like old news now given the top 25 carnage (sorry, love describing it like that) that's taken place since then.

I like the name "The Muhlenberg Paradox."  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 15, 2007, 12:58:02 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 15, 2007, 12:44:18 AM

I like the name "The Muhlenberg Paradox."  ;D

It was the title of an obscure Michael Crichton novel involving a right-wing plot to conquer the world with mule virus.  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 15, 2007, 01:21:56 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 15, 2007, 12:58:02 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 15, 2007, 12:44:18 AM
I like the name "The Muhlenberg Paradox."  ;D
It was the title of an obscure Michael Crichton novel involving a right-wing plot to conquer the world with mule virus.  ;D

I have a first edition printing of that book, signed by the author.  :D

The "paradox" comes from the fact most persons infected by the mule virus claim "victim status" and join the ACLU to protest the use of American Indian nicknames and mascots in college athletics.

Post Patterns jocks will have to read the book to learn if the surreptitious right-wing takeover of the ACLU was successful.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 15, 2007, 01:30:17 AM
Isn't ACLU rumored to be joining the NAC as an affiliate member to ensure AQ status?

Wow, we just nerded this thread out completely.

Good times.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 15, 2007, 10:45:17 AM
Great Podcast again.  You two really get around.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 15, 2007, 01:18:52 PM
I hope Pat was hoarse from yelling at games and not coming down with something. 

Great job, regardless!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 15, 2007, 03:44:06 PM
Little of both. Tough to communicate on the sidelines of the Wheaton game because of crowd noise. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 16, 2007, 12:39:14 AM
I like the headline today: Feelin' Loopy and Looping Chicago.

Regarding this from the Saturday Live thread:
QuotePat Coleman Says:

October 14th, 2007 at 2:54 am e

Keith, who is King Narcolepsy, has been sleeping for a couple hours (Eric Gagne was still warming up) but I'm still up. Yikes.

Not that my business needs to be all in the streets like that, but heck yeah ... I did that Chicago craziness on 1.5 hours sleep at home plus another 2 maybe on the plane. Pat reportedly got him a nice 5-hour night, which is what passes for normal this time of year.

So yeah, I was awake at all our stops, but everytime we got in the car, Pat drove and I eventually knocked off in the passenger seat.

And heck yeah I hit the hotel bed face down with the computer open intending to do my vote, if I recall correctly (did it the next day on the plane).

How's that for inside access?

It really is weird what we do, kind of drag, kind of a rush. You can definitely only do it so many weeks in a row ...

I definitely love seeing all the fields and different teams and actually meeting the players and coaches we write so much about.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 17, 2007, 10:31:01 PM
I guess this might be better anchored on the "me" thread, although it was relevant to the rivalry board from which it came:

Quote from: K-Mack on October 17, 2007, 10:29:26 PM
Quote from: billrt66 on October 17, 2007, 05:10:56 PM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on October 17, 2007, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 16, 2007, 02:19:18 AM
Who needs a column or Crichton, that story was riveting.

I'm gonna hafta do a D3 rivalry book one of these years.

Keith -- If you're writing a book, I'd love to help! ;)


K Mack:  I would STRONGLY suggest that you do a D III rivalry book.  You could travel on sort of the "blue road" kind of tour and pick maybe 10 or 20 that just have to be done! It would take a couple of years since all the games are on Saturday, but you could be the new GAMEDAY guy!! ( God Knows you'd be better than Corso and Herbstreet)  My guess is you could get some sponsors at every stop who would love to see your perspective in print!! I know I would.
Bill

Here's the deal.

I've been knowing I'm eventually going to write one for several years. As to when and how, not quite sure, but I'm getting closer.

Certainly I've seen a good portion of the D3 hot spots, and will see St. John's later in the year, for a more general book, but I also haven't taken in color specifically for a book on those trips. Would probably need to do a lot of background and follow-up in the preseason and offseason.

As for the rivalries themselves, yeah, with most of them being that same weekend in November each year, I would either have to write it over several years or write it without seeing them all. I think there are enough anecdotes and interviews and people who would point me in the right direction that it could be done, but I think I would have to see Cortland-Ithaca in a good year and of course Amherst-Williams. Although with video documentaries and team promotion/recruiting DVDs growing in popularity, there might be ways to get a substitute "feel" for a game :)

Also, I haven't the first clue about getting published.

Also not terribly sure how I'd survive while devoting the time to it. Would love to be full-time, if even just for one fall.

Also, there could be multiple volumes. Don't have to stop at one since there are so many of us and we are ever-changing.

Once I do one, I imagine the others would come easier.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 18, 2007, 01:07:35 PM
Keith--

Don't think it's entirely fair to lump Hardin-Simmons in with this year's disappointments, give the DIII Kickoff publication predicted them to go 7-3, losing to UW-LAX, Linfield and UMHB.   And they were still ranked in the preseason, to boot.  :)

As a fan, I'm disappointed, but from a national perspective, it's fair to say that one could see three losses for the Cowboys coming.   :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2007, 01:16:52 PM
You're entitled to your opinion.

I'm pretty sure I sensed disappointment when folks were pointing out how the Cowboys will be playing their first "meaningless" game in 10 years the week after the UMHB game, etc.

I understand what you're saying about the predicted Kickoff record. It's not really the same type of disappointment as the teams who completely underachieved, but when a team that expects to be in the playoffs is essentially eliminated by Game 5 and Week 6 ... What else should we call it?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 18, 2007, 01:48:27 PM
I guess that's my point--I'm not sure HSU has completely underachieved--and that would be my definition of "disappointment", at least in this context.

Just my humble .02 worth.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Rick Akins on October 18, 2007, 02:31:55 PM
Keith, I enjoyed your column as always.  Thanks for doing something a little different by looking at surprises and yes "disappointments."  Of course HSU played and lost to three really good teams, but in reading what many HSU posters have been saying, I would say that's a pretty mild word.  And anyway, I thought there was no "bad publicity."  I am sure lots of schools just want to get mentioned at all.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2007, 03:10:24 PM
Fair enough, Josh.

I admit, although I tend to give these items lots of thought over the course of the week, this is more in-depth than I had gone previously on HSU. I think I added that one pretty late.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 18, 2007, 04:02:50 PM
Seems a little short of six or nine stadiums.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 18, 2007, 07:25:28 PM
Metro Cleveland would give you 5 stadia, and 7 if you go a little farther and hit MUC and Wooster.  And I have caught all of two games and part of one in the same day/night.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on October 18, 2007, 11:03:47 PM
In addition to the new video scoreboards mentioned in the latest ATN,  Whitewater (http://www.warhawkfootball.com/viewnews.asp?pId=1222) has also installed one at Perkins Stadium, giving the biggest DIII stadium a newer, big-time look, too.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warhawkfootball.com%2Fimages%2Fpress%2FScoreboard%2520Debut%25201.JPG&hash=8d7250380c01905e6914892f177b25e9cfe47758)


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2007, 11:07:43 PM
Claremont/Pomona area (L.A.) is another good one, the SCIAC is based there, except for Oxy, Cal Lu and Redlands. There's also a mix of day and night kickoffs from time-to-time, which help in terms of seeing games, rather than just stadiums.

I'm sure there's a day when CMS, PP, LaVerne and Whittier are all at home. You might be able to do quarters with same-time kickoffs on those.

Cleveland area, same deal. Night kickoffs from time to time. Case, JCU, B-W, etc.

(Believe it or not, I've seen MUC's stadium already)  ;D

I guess Rochester, NY, anywhere in Mass. and a couple other places could make for some serious viewing if kickoffs were staggered.

But I still think Chicago & Minn/St. Paul are the silliest concentrations of D3 schools out there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2007, 11:08:52 PM
Quote from: BoBo on October 18, 2007, 11:03:47 PM
In addition to the new video scoreboards mentioned in the latest ATN,  Whitewater (http://www.warhawkfootball.com/viewnews.asp?pId=1222) has also installed one at Perkins Stadium, giving the biggest DIII stadium a newer, big-time look, too.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.warhawkfootball.com%2Fimages%2Fpress%2FScoreboard%2520Debut%25201.JPG&hash=8d7250380c01905e6914892f177b25e9cfe47758)


It was the middle of the night when I wrote that part, so I couldn't recall the entire discussion, but Pat and I began to list the 6-7 video boards we knew of.

Those were just the ones I'd seen in the past few weeks.

Nice pic.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bob.Gregg on October 18, 2007, 11:15:17 PM
The Pittsburgh region isn't lacking for possibilities of multiple games:

Carnegie-Mellon in the city

Washington & Jefferson 25 miles sw
Bethany 38 miles sw
Waynesburg 45 miles sw

Geneva 25 miles nw
Grove City 35 miles nw
Westminster 35 miles nw
Thiel 65 miles nw

St. Vincent 35 miles east
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2007, 11:29:28 PM
That's true. Although we were hardly talking that kind of mileage in and around Chicago, and I'm telling you, staggered kickoff times are key to getting D3football.com to your town. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bob.Gregg on October 18, 2007, 11:37:21 PM
The mileage might be longer, but not sure the travel time is....


CMU to W&J can be done in about 28 minutes. Parked and walking in to the field.
CMU to Geneva in about the same.

Get through the tunnels and it's open road.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2007, 11:42:23 PM
Makes sense.

Thiel is far though. Made that trip before :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 19, 2007, 12:24:30 AM
Not exactly the kind of trip you can make at halftime. We did Benedictine-to-Elmhurst at halftime and only missed the second half kickoff because we stayed at Benedictine an extra two minutes for me to download photos. :)

And, fairly certain Elmhurst-to-Wheaton, Benedictine-to-North Central, North Central-to-Aurora, North Park-to-Concordia (Ill.) are all shorter than Elmhurst-to-Benedictine.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on October 19, 2007, 10:42:59 AM
Quoting Keith:

You might've missed: The effect of the new kickoff rules on games. I don't think I've seen a touchback this season, and I've seen kicks taken at the 18, resulting in tremendous field position for the offense. Kickoffs are from the 30 this year instead of the 35 ... the return to the old clock operation procedures, restoring the 12 or so plays coaches felt the '06 changes lopped off of games.

Keith, you may have not seen a touchback this season, but here in Mayberry (Alfred), we've seen as many as FIVE touchbacks in a single game. I do not have totals but when I get some spare time, I'll go through the stats to see exactly how many touchbacks we've had from senior placekicker Chris "It's Up, It's Good" Reynolds. We've been blessed with his kicking for four years and he's continued to get stronger each season. He's 33-for-33 on XPs this season to boot.

It's Up! It's Good! It's Reynolds!!

On Saxon Warriors!


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2007, 12:20:19 AM
This has been mentioned a couple times since that came out in different formats (e-mail, here maybe)

I can't think of a touchback I've seen this year.

Mark Simon says he's seen some up at Coast Guard.

Someone else (SCIAC maybe?) let me know they saw some.

You don't have to comb through the stats, I get the messaage loud and clear. Across the nation, there are still touchbacks taking place.

But ... there definitely aren't as many.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 21, 2007, 01:06:30 AM
Cortland had several at Kean.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 21, 2007, 04:35:05 AM
All one needs is a good but not necessarily great DIII place kicker, a wind of at least 15 mph and a kickoffoff from the 30 with the benefit of that wind for the not uncommon ingredients of a possible touchback.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on October 21, 2007, 10:28:07 AM
Last year Huntingdon had 22 touchbacks on on 47 kickoffs. So far this year we have 2 on 33 kickoffs. Part of that might be that last year's kicker decided to play soccer this year. I believe he would still be getting plenty of touchbacks from the 30.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 21, 2007, 10:47:55 AM
And probably a few line drives that bounce over the retuners headsa and roll into thw endzone..
Quote from: frank uible on October 21, 2007, 04:35:05 AM
All one needs is a good but not necessarily great DIII place kicker, a wind of at least 15 mph and a kickoffoff from the 30 with the benefit of that wind for the not uncommon ingredients of a possible touchback.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 21, 2007, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 21, 2007, 12:20:19 AM
This has been mentioned a couple times since that came out in different formats (e-mail, here maybe)

I can't think of a touchback I've seen this year.

Mark Simon says he's seen some up at Coast Guard.

Someone else (SCIAC maybe?) let me know they saw some.

You don't have to comb through the stats, I get the messaage loud and clear. Across the nation, there are still touchbacks taking place.

But ... there definitely aren't as many.

I think Central had two against UD.  There was a pretty good wind at the game to help.  The last kick was 3 yards deep and was returned to the 10
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 22, 2007, 11:04:27 PM
I really enjoyed the ATN Podcast this week, especially since it included that mini-lecture on D3 Football Playoff Ancient History.

Quote from: Pat Coleman's ATN Podcast on October 21, 2007, 01:06:30 AM
"Because of the vagarities in the SCAC--they added a couple of teams this year--Trinity has to go back to Millsaps."

Vagarities?
Vaguerities?
Vague airities?

??? Did I spell that right, Poobah?  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 22, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
You had me at vagarities. :)

Though how you spell a word I apparently made up (vagaries is correct) is probably not important.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 22, 2007, 11:44:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 22, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
You had me at vagarities.© :)

Though how you spell a word I apparently made up (vagaries is correct) is probably not important.

Surely not important, but you made it up, you recorded it in a tangible medium, and under the Berne Convention, you have copyright in the term.  Congratulations, Poobah, you also have my Intellectual Property legal services available pro bono publico (and pro bono D3football.como) to enforce that copyright.

I'm proud to have caught negative karma for discussing football in a positive way, kidding with no disrespect.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on October 22, 2007, 11:53:30 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 22, 2007, 11:44:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 22, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
You had me at vagarities.© :)

Though how you spell a word I apparently made up (vagaries is correct) is probably not important.

Surely not important, but you made it up, you recorded it in a tangible medium, and under the Berne Convention, you have copyright in the term.  Congratulations, Poobah, you also have my Intellectual Property legal services available pro bono publico (and pro bono D3football.como) to enforce that copyright.

I'm proud to have caught negative karma for discussing football in a positive way, kidding with no disrespect.

"Pro bono d3football.com-o" made me laugh really hard.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 23, 2007, 12:17:16 AM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on October 22, 2007, 11:53:30 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 22, 2007, 11:44:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 22, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
You had me at vagarities.© :)

Though how you spell a word I apparently made up (vagaries is correct) is probably not important.

Surely not important, but you made it up, you recorded it in a tangible medium, and under the Berne Convention, you have copyright in the term.  Congratulations, Poobah, you also have my Intellectual Property legal services available pro bono publico (and pro bono D3football.como) to enforce that copyright.

I'm proud to have caught negative karma for discussing football in a positive way, kidding with no disrespect.

"Pro bono d3football.com-o" made me laugh really hard.

It's nice to know that somebody around here has a sense of humor that's more sophisticated than Howard Stern shtick.

Feeling good about the East Region's Jimmy Olson.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 23, 2007, 01:15:40 AM
Redswarm, you picked up 5 karma alone just by posting here today.

The ATN thread makes good things happen. :)

Unless of course, you like your karma below -50. Which if I recall correctly ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 23, 2007, 08:38:07 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 23, 2007, 01:15:40 AM

The ATN thread makes good things happen. :)

Unless of course, you like your karma below -50. Which if I recall correctly ...

Gunga Lagunga. . . .

So I got that going for me.  Which is nice.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on October 23, 2007, 12:03:08 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 23, 2007, 12:17:16 AM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on October 22, 2007, 11:53:30 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 22, 2007, 11:44:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 22, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
You had me at vagarities.© :)

Though how you spell a word I apparently made up (vagaries is correct) is probably not important.

Surely not important, but you made it up, you recorded it in a tangible medium, and under the Berne Convention, you have copyright in the term.  Congratulations, Poobah, you also have my Intellectual Property legal services available pro bono publico (and pro bono D3football.como) to enforce that copyright.

I'm proud to have caught negative karma for discussing football in a positive way, kidding with no disrespect.

"Pro bono d3football.com-o" made me laugh really hard.

It's nice to know that somebody around here has a sense of humor that's more sophisticated than Howard Stern shtick.

Feeling good about the East Region's Jimmy Olson.

I like the fact that you can help Pat copyright a word he made up on the Podcast. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 07:52:26 PM
One thing I didn't get into the column (I'll probably have to sneak it into Triple Take) is that we haven't had a 'weather event' weekend that I can think of this year ... I'm sure it's rained in some places, but this weekend sounds like it could be bad everywhere.

Raining today in Columbus, Pittsburgh and a lot of the mid-Atlantic. I haven't checked the weather to see what's forecasted for Saturday.

Also noticed a UMHB/UWW preview in tomorrow's USA Today (I had nothing to do with it, so nice they noticed!)

Also, a Division I aside ... BC has no chance tonight. Root for Tech. And Penn State Saturday. The BCS is goin' down!

Also, back to D3, I should have asked for opinions on which coaches are excelling for Liberty Mutual coach of the year. Maybe I'll do it in the Dose or next week's ATN, but in the meantime ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 25, 2007, 07:59:25 PM
K-Mack,

Nice article about the Dutch.  I think you really captured Dutch Football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 25, 2007, 11:23:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 07:52:26 PM

Also, a Division I aside ... BC has no chance tonight. Root for Tech.


D'oh!!  I'm so fed up with Boston.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 11:28:51 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 25, 2007, 11:23:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 07:52:26 PM

Also, a Division I aside ... BC has no chance tonight. Root for Tech.


D'oh!!  I'm so fed up with Boston.

I was looking good there right until the end.

The slurping of a team that looked hella beatable for 56-58 minutes was rather annoying. They aren't winning jack.

Boston is actually a great city, but yeah, anywhere with obnoxious sports fans shouldn't be allowed to have that much success at once. Wait until the Celtics get rolling again, you think you've heard the worst of it?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 11:28:51 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 25, 2007, 11:23:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 07:52:26 PM

Also, a Division I aside ... BC has no chance tonight. Root for Tech.


D'oh!!  I'm so fed up with Boston.

I was looking good there right until the end.

The slurping of a team that looked hella beatable for 56-58 minutes was rather annoying. They aren't winning jack.

Boston is actually a great city, but yeah, anywhere with obnoxious sports fans shouldn't be allowed to have that much success at once. Wait until the Celtics get rolling again, you think you've heard the worst of it?
Who is on the cover of this week's Sports Illustrated?

The Boston Celtics!    :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 26, 2007, 02:24:26 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2007, 11:31:03 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 11:28:51 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 25, 2007, 11:23:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2007, 07:52:26 PM

Also, a Division I aside ... BC has no chance tonight. Root for Tech.


D'oh!!  I'm so fed up with Boston.

I was looking good there right until the end.

The slurping of a team that looked hella beatable for 56-58 minutes was rather annoying. They aren't winning jack.

Boston is actually a great city, but yeah, anywhere with obnoxious sports fans shouldn't be allowed to have that much success at once. Wait until the Celtics get rolling again, you think you've heard the worst of it?
Who is on the cover of this week's Sports Illustrated?

The Boston Celtics!    :-\

So there is hope!  Go SI Curse!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on October 26, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
Today there are 5 DIV III games being played at the MetroDome in Minneapolis. Is there anywhere in the East that such an event could or has taken place. It would be nice even though it started at 9:00AM.

Also Pat Coleman's verbage on Vagaries proves that some of us do listen to our English Teachers or Profs.
Latin--vagus--def: wandering
English--vagary (plural vagaries)-- an erratic notion or action

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 26, 2007, 06:54:23 PM
Quote from: old ends on October 26, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
Also Pat Coleman's verbage on Vagaries proves that some of us do listen to our English Teachers or Profs.
Latin--vagus--def: wandering
English--vagary (plural vagaries)-- an erratic notion or action

Hmmm.  And I thought he was just using a fancy word for cooter.........
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 26, 2007, 07:24:52 PM
Quote from: old ends on October 26, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
Today there are 5 DIV III games being played at the MetroDome in Minneapolis. Is there anywhere in the East that such an event could or has taken place. It would be nice even though it started at 9:00AM.

Well, in theory, any conference could pull it off, and for most (aside from the ASC, UAA, SCAC and maybe a few others I'm forgetting), finding a central location within a few hours for most schools would be possible.

But it's definitely a unique idea. You don't even have to like the UMAC to enjoy football on top of football. Think of it as New Year's Day come early, D3 style.

I'm here now and I'm actually pretty impressed, given the way a D3 game could get lost in such a big building, it's actually got a nice feel to it, with the dome's reverb and the use of the big board for the day's stats.

I'll blog about it at least a few more times over at the Daily Dose, so if you're just at home puttering around, stay with us tonight. Check out the photos from Dome Day and the Del. Val.-Widener broadcast. C'mon, what else you gonna do, go out and have a beer?  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 26, 2007, 08:23:08 PM
The ICAC and HCAC did that a few times at the Hoosier Dome. I'm sure the NCAC could do it there too if most of the teams wanted to travel to Indianapolis.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 26, 2007, 09:59:01 PM
Yeah, I imagine it's a decent expenditure, so it's got to be something all teams are on board with and something all teams feel they need to make their season.

I guess if I was any kind of reporter, I'd find out why the UMAC feels it's such a good idea.

I think it's cool.

Threw a couple more posts up about my experience here today, not that that's the full story or the full experience, but it's a glimpse at least. Enjoy it now before we go all crazy with tomorrow's results.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 27, 2007, 10:38:22 PM
Wow, I'm geeked about The Game deciding the ODAC title.

Probably should just link to p. 748 of the ODAC board rather than rehashing ... but not even up to do either right yet.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2007, 11:23:51 PM
You guys have to see this ... the crazy ending of Trinity-Millsaps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbzQoXuxdU

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Schwami on October 27, 2007, 11:33:50 PM
 :o :o :o

Thanks for that link Ron.

How many laterals were there on that play?  Could it have been a record for most laterals on one play?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2007, 11:35:37 PM
I've heard 14 and 16.  Hard to tell from the video.  I was there but counting laterals was the last thing on my mind!

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 27, 2007, 11:41:39 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2007, 11:23:51 PM
You guys have to see this ... the crazy ending of Trinity-Millsaps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbzQoXuxdU


We were literally JUST talking about how to incorporate clips of plays like that one on YouTube on our site.

Will watch now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2007, 11:51:43 PM
From the SCAC board:

Quote from: scacsid on October 27, 2007, 11:47:37 PM
ESPN has it and word is, it may run tonight.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 27, 2007, 11:57:07 PM
I pulled it into Ron's story on our page.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 12:05:25 AM
That was TigerDad who posted that?

Great clip. Good call too.

We had already contacted our contact at the network to get that on TV. I'll bet anything that's all over TV by tomorrow night.

Great work, great ending ... you know, there was a lateral play in one of the UMAC games at the end, and it took about two laterals before someone threw one forward. At the time, I'm thinking 'how hard is it to just make sure you throw it backward?'

People make that play look so difficult, right? You just stay behind the guy with the ball, stay active, and if you have the ball, don't get tackled and always throw it backwards.

But then you know, watching that Trinity clip ... amazing how many times someone just threw it and a Millsaps guy reached for it and a Trinity guy caught it. And all it takes is one guy to drop it and it's over.

I mean, in essence, that's an exciting play because the longer it goes, the better it gets ... the more tired the defense is, etc.

Millsaps had to be thinking 'good Lord, just let me get close enough to tackle you ... gaaah!"

High drama at its best. Millsaps has now lost twice in very tough manners.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 12:06:39 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2007, 11:51:43 PM
From the SCAC board:

Quote from: scacsid on October 27, 2007, 11:47:37 PM
ESPN has it and word is, it may run tonight.

Ah yes. Like I said :)

(posts first, reads last way too often)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 12:08:34 AM
Quote from: Schwami on October 27, 2007, 11:33:50 PM
How many laterals were there on that play?  Could it have been a record for most laterals on one play?

I'd be surprised if records were kept on that, but I can't think of anything I've seen with more successful laterals ending in a game-winning TD.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2007, 12:13:55 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 12:05:25 AM
That was TigerDad who posted that?

Yep.  TigerDad's son had, I believe, his best game at RB as a Trinity Tiger today.  He's scored more but getting 120+ yds against a defense allowing under 80 yards per game to entire teams was a plus. 

The primary guy on the call was a TU sophomore Jonathan Wiener (per MYsa.com).  The other voice you hear was none other than our own historymajor. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sfury on October 28, 2007, 12:24:13 AM
Written words can do nothing to adequately describe the insanity of that play. The call was good. And it wasn't hyperbole when he went from speculating about whether it's the craziest finish in d3 football, to the history of football. I thought it was going to end that first time when they got a little break and were going down the  near sideline, but then the play went all the way back over the other one.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2007, 12:31:07 AM
ROFL!! It (or the better quality original) was on sportscenter AFTER the top ten plays of the day.

Of course the announcers called Trinity "Mike Dubose' team" but other than that they seemed as amazed as we all were. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sfury on October 28, 2007, 12:40:19 AM
They played it again about five minutes after the first showing. Van Pelt was speechless. Then it led off their College Football final show.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2007, 12:45:26 AM
ESPN made the higher-quality video they showed on the air available on their website, too:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3083220&categoryId=2564308&n8pe6c=2

Good night to all!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 28, 2007, 01:18:13 AM
I've watched the video (both utube and espn) at least five times already.  I insisted that my wife (who hates football) watch it and she was in stitches.  What I find MOST amazing (aside from the mere fact that no one ever bobbled a catch) is:

a) every one of the passes was indeed a legal lateral (with all the spinning around and chaos, it is incredible that none of the passes went forward), and

b) in all that there was never a hold, illegal block, or whatever to negate the whole thing (or, chances are, there was but the refs were as slack-jawed as the rest of us about the whole thing - and who would have the heart and/or guts to flag such a play?)!

UN-FREAKIN-BELIEVABLE!! :o
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 01:26:55 AM
Good points Ypsi.

Safe to assume ESPN kept the whole call in there? They love that stuff, and this call was as nuts/joyous/good as anything this side of Plano East/Lake Highlands* or ... dare I say ... Stanford-Cal

About to check out the higher-quality vid.

Still have to record a podcast tonight and sort through the mess that is now our top 25, to cast a ballot. Would hate to get off a plane and then run back to the computer to vote in time.

EDIT: * Good lookin' out Ralph on the correction. I should post those YouTube clips you sent if I can embed them properly on The Dose.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 28, 2007, 01:45:20 AM
After finally seeing it on the big screen on College Game Day, I saw something I wanted to double-check so I watched the video yet again.  Then I saw it again on SportsCenter, which clearly confirmed it: the very last lateral bounced off the ground before it was caught (which explains the long hesitation of the announcer before excitedly calling the TD)!  Arguably the greatest finish in football history (though I still like the Stanford tuba player being run down!), and it didn't really quite happen. :'(

Poor Millsaps!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 02:02:35 AM
Did appear that when the ball was bounced the Defensive players stopped thinking maybe the ball was dead?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 02:52:20 AM
I hadn't noticed that any of the several times I've watched it.

And it's been enough times to start analyzing the slow backside pursuit and the missed tackles and the block I didn't even noticed until someone on one of the boards pointed it out.

So one hand, I can understand anything missed in fast motion.

On the other hand, this is going to get analyzed to death. Perhaps even some talking heads saying how can you let this happen, as though it was so easy to stop in fast motion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: speedybigboy on October 28, 2007, 02:54:46 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 02:02:35 AM
Did appear that when the ball was bounced the Defensive players stopped thinking maybe the ball was dead?

I saw that too, at least one and maybe more guys near the ball are walking the other way as the last lateral is picked up off the bounce and then run in
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 02:58:34 AM
That can't be right.

It bounced, all the officials missed it, all of Millsaps missed it, the ESPN anchors missed it ... we're just now catching wind of it?

I have a plane to catch in the morning, I can't stay up to watch the play another 10 times :)

Would certainly ruin one of the great plays in a long time. Then again, to this day there's some doubt about one of the laterals or a knee being down early in the Stanford-Cal play.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: speedybigboy on October 28, 2007, 03:07:29 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 02:58:34 AM
That can't be right.

It bounced, all the officials missed it, all of Millsaps missed it, the ESPN anchors missed it ... we're just now catching wind of it?

I have a plane to catch in the morning, I can't stay up to watch the play another 10 times :)

Would certainly ruin one of the great plays in a long time. Then again, to this day there's some doubt about one of the laterals or a knee being down early in the Stanford-Cal play.

a lateral can bounce and still be in play, my point was I think a couple of Milsaps guys let up.

P.S. there is virtually no doubt in my mind that one of the laterals in the Stanford-Cal play was forward, actually I think it was the last one or second to the last one
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tu_lb53 on October 28, 2007, 03:18:16 AM
Speedy's got it right - a backwards lateral can bounce and still be live. That is, without a doubt, the craziest play I've ever seen in my life, and, apologies to Roy Hampton and Jason Hunt, the most memorable play in Trinity football history.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 28, 2007, 03:23:30 AM
Quote from: tu_lb53 on October 28, 2007, 03:18:16 AM
apologies to Roy Hampton and Jason Hunt, the most memorable play in Trinity football history.

Is that the last-second TD pass to beat Wash U?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2007, 09:16:30 AM
I tried to find the play on Youtube that was called the "Texas special".

It was 1965.  Texas A&M was playing Texas on Thanksgiving, as usual.

The Aggies had the ball on their own 9 yd line.

The Aggie QB goes under center on the right hash mark.  He takes the snap and throws the lateral, in a forward pass motion, to the left wide receiver.  The ball bounces before it gets to the left wide receiver.  This receiver picks up the one- bounce lateral and then fires a Hail Mary down the field to the Right Wide Receiver who is streaking down the field for a 91-yd TD pass.

A&M beats UT.  Arkansas goes to the Cotton Bowl.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 28, 2007, 09:32:46 AM
That is an oldie but goodie trick play - sometimes called the "oh, ****" play -  because that is what the thrower of the lateral often yells immediately after the throw in order to sell it to the defense. Also sometimes called the "bounce" play. I've seen it executed successfully at least twice - once by Wisconsin on TV in the 60s, and once live in a HS JV game in greater St. Louis during the 80s.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 10:31:44 AM
http://www.lcfootball.com/

Here is the play that Lansdale Catholic  in PA. won an ESPY with. Not quite 15 laterals but similar  play.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 28, 2007, 11:06:07 AM
Mark May just called it his play of the day.
ESPN has it up as one of the game changing performances and you can vote here:
Trinity Milsaps  (https://r.espn.go.com/espn/contests/07GameChangingPerformance/index?cmp=ncaafb07voteola)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tu_lb53 on October 28, 2007, 01:51:28 PM
Yep Pat, that's the one. I don't think they'll mind much though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on October 28, 2007, 07:17:00 PM
Quote from: frank uible on October 28, 2007, 09:32:46 AM
That is an oldie but goodie trick play - sometimes called the "oh, ****" play -  because that is what the thrower of the lateral often yells immediately after the throw in order to sell it to the defense. Also sometimes called the "bounce" play. I've seen it executed successfully at least twice - once by Wisconsin on TV in the 60s, and once live in a HS JV game in greater St. Louis during the 80s.

I think the play by Wisconsin was in '83 or '84.  Don't remember exactly the QB, but for some reason I think it was Randy Wright.  The receiver catching the bounce and making the second throw was Al Toon. I do remember seeing it on TV, too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KitchenSink on October 28, 2007, 07:36:35 PM
It was Randy Wright bouncing it to Al Toon, who paused, then threw long to tight end Jeff Nault to put the Badgers ahead of Illinois by a point.  Unfortunately they left something like 40 seconds on the clock, and Illinois was able to get in FG range after to win it at the gun.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 28, 2007, 08:00:19 PM
Googling discloses that the play occurred at Camp Randall Stadium on 10/23/82 - Wright to Toon to Jeff Nault. Iwould have sworn that it happened well before I saw it used in the JV game which I more precisely estimate to have taken place in 1981. So much for my memory!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
Ralph sent me the links to a couple all-time favorites last night. Although he has still not found the Texas A&M play to which he refers ... YouTube's been a big help on the others:

QuotePlano East Senior High (PESH) - Tyler John Tyler HS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHkABO0VwCg

Historymajor's oldest son (and TU's Jeremy Boyce, I believe) played for Coach Mike Zofutto who was at Lake Highlands at the time.

The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ

... (later)

It dawned on me that YouTube can become a video archive of my favorite sports reel highlights.

I am still trying to find the "Texas Special", the bounce lateral- forward pass- Hail Mary by the Texas Aggies against Texas in the mid-1960's (?1965?).  I am surprised that some Aggie hasn't posted it yet.  I didn't find it on Youtube and have bogged down in Google land looking for it.

EDITED to make clear the quoted matter is Ralph talking, the below is me.

The latter two are a history lesson for me (born in '76, so I don't remember much from '82) ... as was the Wisconsin stuff.

Keep it comin' folks!

(There was a good lateral play by the Panthers vs. the Eagles a few years ago, but it was illegal)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 28, 2007, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
Ralph sent me the links to a couple all-time favorites last night. Although he has still not found the Texas A&M play to which he refers ... YouTube's been a big help on the others:

Plano East Senior High (PESH) - Tyler John Tyler HS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHkABO0VwCg

Historymajor's oldest son (and TU's Jeremy Boyce, I believe) played for Coach Mike Zofutto who was at Lake Highlands at the time.

The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ

... (later)

It dawned on me that YouTube can become a video archive of my favorite sports reel highlights.

I am still trying to find the "Texas Special", the bounce lateral- forward pass- Hail Mary by the Texas Aggies against Texas in the mid-1960's (?1965?).  I am surprised that some Aggie hasn't posted it yet.  I didn't find it on Youtube and have bogged down in Google land looking for it.

The latter two are a history lesson for me (born in '76, so I don't remember much from '82) ... as was the Wisconsin stuff.

Keep it comin' folks!

(There was a good lateral play by the Panthers vs. the Eagles a few years ago, but it was illegal)
[/quote]


Keith

Here is another one

http://www.lcfootball.com/      once at the site click on ESPY
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2007, 09:29:04 PM
It is Coach Z's "color commentary", 

"I think I am gonna throw up"  that made this one a classic.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 28, 2007, 09:31:01 PM
Quote from: tu_lb53 on October 28, 2007, 01:51:28 PM
Yep Pat, that's the one. I don't think they'll mind much though.

Memorable one it was. Enjoyed calling that game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 28, 2007, 10:21:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ


Of course, though, you must realize that SMU's payroll rivaled this year's Houston Texans!!

:D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2007, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 28, 2007, 10:21:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ


Of course, though, you must realize that SMU's payroll rivaled this year's Houston Texans!!

:D
No!  Any SMU payroll went out the window in 1987!

A not-very-bold prediction...

If Alabama did not warrant the death penalty with their infractions from earlier this decade, then the NCAA will never give the death penalty again!

Since the death penalty at SMU, the Southwest Conference has dissolved, SMU has disbanded its most successful team sport (Men's indoor and outdoor track), and we have seen the WAC, the Mountain West and Conference USA go thru all sorts of configurations.   :-\

The Athletic Department is floundering as the 6th most important D-1 athletic program in the DFW market.  (UT, A&M, OU, Texas Tech, TCU, SMU)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2007, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2007, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 28, 2007, 10:21:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ


Of course, though, you must realize that SMU's payroll rivaled this year's Houston Texans!!

:D
No!  Any SMU payroll went out the window in 1987!

A not-very-bold prediction...

If Alabama did not warrant the death penalty with their infractions from earlier this decade, then the NCAA will never give the death penalty again!

Since the death penalty at SMU, the Southwest Conference has dissolved, SMU has disbanded its most successful team sport (Men's indoor and outdoor track), and we have seen the WAC, the Mountain West and Conference USA go thru all sorts of configurations.   :-\

The Athletic Department is floundering as the 6th most important D-1 athletic program in the DFW market.  (UT, A&M, OU, Texas Tech, TCU, SMU)

I believe they fired their football coach today as well.

Not to add insult to injury or anything.

I forget the details surrounding the death penalty for SMU, but it's been a generation, right? I mean, Craig James is in the booth these days. Time to let SMU creep back into normal life, right?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 12:59:15 AM
SMU is not a good match anywhere these days.  Is the Conference-USA West a real threat in anything?  UTEP, Tulsa, SMU, Rice, Houston, Tulane?  Rice plays baseball, but SMU hasn't had baseball for 40 years.  SMU's mens' soccer team has been in the Missouri Valley and now competes in the C-USA.

The sport profile now at SMU is 6 men (FB, BB, Soccer, Golf, Tennis and Swimming) and 11 women's sports.  I guess the Women's Basketball team is probably the most competitive over the last decade.

I don't even think that they could find a home in D-III.  They are not a research university, thus no UAA.  They are much bigger than the SCAC schools.

Maybe C-USA is the right place.  They have led the C-USA in the Director's Cup for the past several years.  (Wooo-hooo.  Especially since UTexas is in contention to win the whole thing some years.)   The West rivals are familiar to SMU fans, but things have certainly changed since 1987.  And, they seem to have passed SMU by in athletics.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2007, 01:38:55 AM
Yeah,
I agree with most of that.

I guess a lot of the perception revolves mostly around football (especially in Texas). Generally speaking, although there are exceptions, when football's going well, everything else seems to go well.

Then also I sometimes wonder why we are obsessed with championships and such.* To me, that's the mark of a competitor, of someone who's hungry for a challenge, but I bet SMU has to sell the opposite, as do many D3s ... You play for the sheer experience of playing.

* I reserve the right to explain myself with regard to the die-hard opposition to the BCS/lack of a playoff in D1A. If you're going to play for the joy of playing, don't try to shove a severely flawed "championship" system down our throats. Do it right or don't do it at all. Simple, right?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 29, 2007, 09:06:53 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2007, 01:38:55 AM

. . . I sometimes wonder why we are obsessed with championships and such.*

* I reserve the right to explain myself with regard to the die-hard opposition to the BCS/lack of a playoff in D1A. If you're going to play for the joy of playing, don't try to shove a severely flawed "championship" system down our throats. Do it right or don't do it at all. Simple, right?

There is a tiny, negative karma-besieged, yet intellectually and philosophically consistent minority out there who asks the question

In college athletics, why is a national championship necessary?

Sure it's fun, but how does it improve the quality of the education over the benefits derived from participating in a regular season and maybe local conference championships?  Isn't this a question that, at minimum, ought to be addressed before national championship tournaments are organized?

It is a helluva good time, though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 10:01:26 AM
The need for a national championship has been addressed, and is still being considered.

The "secessionists", the D-IV'ers or whatever you want to call them are proposing these types of changes in the "Future of D-III" debate.

I refer you to the voluminous contemporaneous debate on the Future of D-III message board.

However, as it stands now, only the NESCAC, and in only one sport, has held true to that principle.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 29, 2007, 10:25:19 AM
Maybe we should just quit keeping score all together since it's simply for the joy of competition that we play the game......

I've never understood the mindset of those that don't want to compete to see who's the best.  If being the best isn't important, I wonder if these schools are going to quit keeping track of GPA's too?   Wouldn't want the lesser students to feel slighted by not finishing top in their class.

Dumb.  Just plain dumb.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on October 29, 2007, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 10:01:26 AM


However, as it stands now, only the NESCAC, and in only one sport, has held true to that principle.
Well, only a "certain kind" of true, right? Don't NESCAC teams go to postseason in other sports?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 29, 2007, 02:18:40 PM
Quote from: hscoach on October 29, 2007, 10:25:19 AM
Maybe we should just quit keeping score all together since it's simply for the joy of competition that we play the game......

I've never understood the mindset of those that don't want to compete to see who's the best.  If being the best isn't important, I wonder if these schools are going to quit keeping track of GPA's too?   Wouldn't want the lesser students to feel slighted by not finishing top in their class.

Dumb.  Just plain dumb.

I don't understand what you're saying, coach.  If we don't keep score, then it's not a competition--so where's the joy of competition when there's no competition?

I think you're addressing an issue that hasn't been raised.  I fear that you're misinterpreting the question of why we need national championships in college athletics, and answering your misinterpretation.

Maybe you are addressing the question, but if so, you skipped a few steps between "national championship" and "keeping score."

As for competing to see who's the best, of course students compete with each other to be the best, and furthermore, the colleges compete with each other to provide the best education, because that's what colleges are selling-education.  But colleges aren't awarding degrees for athletic prowess.

For example, does anyone think that a degree from the University of Houston (called "Cougar High School" by Houstonians) is more valuable than it otherwise would be, just because their basketball team played in the Final Four three years in a row?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 29, 2007, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 10:01:26 AM
The need for a national championship has been addressed, and is still being considered.

By the NCAA?  I'd love to hear their explanation.  Is it as compelling as their explanation of why American Indian-related nicknames and imagery must be stricken from NCAA-member schools?

Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 10:01:26 AM
The "secessionists", the D-IV'ers or whatever you want to call them are proposing these types of changes in the "Future of D-III" debate.

I refer you to the voluminous contemporaneous debate on the Future of D-III message board.

However, as it stands now, only the NESCAC, and in only one sport, has held true to that principle.

And the NESCAC takes a lot of heat on these message boards for their steadfast adherence to principle (albeit in only one sport).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 29, 2007, 03:45:35 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2007, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 28, 2007, 10:21:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ


Of course, though, you must realize that SMU's payroll rivaled this year's Houston Texans!!

:D
No!  Any SMU payroll went out the window in 1987!


I meant THAT SMU payroll rivals today's Houston Texans. However, it is sad when what should be their glory days, all you can think of is how much they cheated. I don't think I've ever heard Craig James talk about that scandal.

Perhaps SMU should join the Southland or something, and scale back to 1-AA football?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 05:58:21 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 29, 2007, 03:45:35 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2007, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 28, 2007, 10:21:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2007, 08:57:15 PM
The Music City Miracle was a re-incarnation of the SMU-Texas Tech game in 1982 to preserve SMU's #2 ranking.  That highlight is at the end of this 3 minute clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1PccepNHQ


Of course, though, you must realize that SMU's payroll rivaled this year's Houston Texans!!

:D
No!  Any SMU payroll went out the window in 1987!


I meant THAT SMU payroll rivals today's Houston Texans. However, it is sad when what should be their glory days, all you can think of is how much they cheated. I don't think I've ever heard Craig James talk about that scandal.

Perhaps SMU should join the Southland or something, and scale back to 1-AA football?
SMU's endowment went over $1Billion this year.

They are raising lots of money, but it doesn't translate into any type of academic respect.  The feature story at the beginning of school was about alcohol use/abuse on the campus. 

As for going 1-AA, their academic peers are not Sam Houston State or McNeese.

They could drop football.  The Dallas Morning News Sports Day section would win a prize for the feature coverage of the story.  It would be news for a week, and then forgotten.

It is really sad.

But, I have moved on to D-III!  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 29, 2007, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 05:58:21 PM
SMU's endowment went over $1Billion this year.

As for going 1-AA, their academic peers are not Sam Houston State or McNeese.

They could drop football.

It is really sad.

But, I have moved on to D-III!  :)

Mind those prepositions.  Up to D-III!

I recall reading an article circa 1991, discussing SMU's football future, post-death penalty.  In that article, the D-III option was mentioned, and it even mentioned that SMU might be competing against the likes of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.  Since the article was in a Texas paper (I remember not which one), I was surprised to see the RPI mention.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2007, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 link=topic=3800.msg792135#msg792135 [...Since the article was in a Texas paper (I remember not which one), I was surprised to see the RPI mention.

Hey, we 'uns here in Texas ain't all dumb hicks. 

The author probably either wanted to cast SMU against a "comparable" elite D3 school back east or was an alumnus.   No self-respecting Dallas or Houston writer is going to do anything as gauche as compare SMU to a Texas D3 school because obviously SMU is way superior (and actually, they probably are - though I will note that Trinity, half the size of SMU, has 80% of their endowment). 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on October 29, 2007, 08:16:05 PM
I am really enjoying the knowledge that those on these post have. When I lived in New England for a few years I would attend some Empire 8 and Liberty League games not knowing anything about D3sports in general. Went to a John Hopkings basketball game the begining of this year an a parent who I never saw before started taking to me about Div III. Told me about D3hoops which lead me to here.  thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 08:20:09 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2007, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 link=topic=3800.msg792135#msg792135 [...Since the article was in a Texas paper (I remember not which one), I was surprised to see the RPI mention.

Hey, we 'uns here in Texas ain't all dumb hicks. 

The author probably either wanted to cast SMU against a "comparable" elite D3 school back east or was an alumnus.   No self-respecting Dallas or Houston writer is going to do anything as gauche as compare SMU to a Texas D3 school because obviously SMU is way superior (and actually, they probably are - though I will note that Trinity, half the size of SMU, has 80% of their endowment). 
The reference to RPI was probably in the context of RPI alumnus and member of the RPI Hall of Fame, Erik Jonsson (http://www.rpi.edu/about/hof/jonsson.html), the former Dallas mayor, a pioneer at Texas Instruments, and a major player in the creation of the DFW International Airport.

As for the use of the preposition, the word "on" more accurately describes the nature of the migration.  :(
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 29, 2007, 08:32:15 PM
I think SMU is stuck, right now. Fundraising prowess is not congruent to academic reputation (real or imagined). I don't think moving to D-3 is the answer, since they at least win basketball games once in a while.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 29, 2007, 08:41:30 PM
Here's an idea for the NCAA with regards to a D1 playoff. Use you major bowl games as playoff venues. Rotate the bowls so no one gets slighted.  Drop schedules back to 10 games. They can still fill minor bowls with teams not particpating in the playoffs  .  Too easy!!!!!!! ;D ???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 29, 2007, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 08:20:09 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2007, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 link=topic=3800.msg792135#msg792135 [...Since the article was in a Texas paper (I remember not which one), I was surprised to see the RPI mention.

Hey, we 'uns here in Texas ain't all dumb hicks. 

The author probably either wanted to cast SMU against a "comparable" elite D3 school back east or was an alumnus.   No self-respecting Dallas or Houston writer is going to do anything as gauche as compare SMU to a Texas D3 school because obviously SMU is way superior (and actually, they probably are - though I will note that Trinity, half the size of SMU, has 80% of their endowment). 
The reference to RPI was probably in the context of RPI alumnus and member of the RPI Hall of Fame, Erik Jonsson (http://www.rpi.edu/about/hof/jonsson.html), the former Dallas mayor, a pioneer at Texas Instruments, and a major player in the creation of the DFW International Airport.

As for the use of the preposition, the word "on" more accurately describes the nature of the migration.  :(

Good, plausible theory about the SMU - RPI connection in the article, but I'd have noticed a mention of J. Erik Jonsson, there was none in the article.  As Pat learned last year, the J. Erik Jonsson Engineering Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonsson_Engineering_Center) at RPI runs along the full length of the center-of-campus '86 Field, and has a second floor balcony/sidewalk that makes for a decent viewing location.  I think the author-as-alumnus theory holds a little more water.

Pat the Poobah has used the "up to D-III" phrase many times.  Regardless of which preposition you took to get here, we're happy you made it, of course.   :)

Big thanks, btw, for clueing me in on how to embed a hyperlink.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2007, 08:54:01 PM
Quote from: hscoach on October 29, 2007, 10:25:19 AM
Maybe we should just quit keeping score all together since it's simply for the joy of competition that we play the game......

I've never understood the mindset of those that don't want to compete to see who's the best.  If being the best isn't important, I wonder if these schools are going to quit keeping track of GPA's too?   Wouldn't want the lesser students to feel slighted by not finishing top in their class.

Yeah, that's kind of how I look at it too, that the essence of competition is pushing yourself to your limits, perhaps beyond your expectations, which is certainly a decent worthy life lesson. And if we're just playing for fun, to extend that line of thinking, why bring in another team? Why waste the dollars in making it intercollegiate when we can just run intramurals? (which also don't keep score...)

Also an interesting contrast in that the schools who we assume aren't obsessed with their rankings in football are the ones who are obsessed with their rankings in U.S. News & World Report. They also tend to be the schools very interested in winning championships in other sports, like tennis, cross country and crew (not knocking them, just saying that's an interesting point)

Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2007, 10:01:26 AM
The need for a national championship has been addressed, and is still being considered.

The "secessionists", the D-IV'ers or whatever you want to call them are proposing these types of changes in the "Future of D-III" debate.

I refer you to the voluminous contemporaneous debate on the Future of D-III message board.

However, as it stands now, only the NESCAC, and in only one sport, has held true to that principle.

I haven't been avoiding it by accident.  ;)

I did read some over the weekend at the Dome Day, trying to verify what I remembered about the NathCon and SLIAC ... I got sucked all the way back to Jan. 2006 where Pat posted that he didn't think the D3/D4 split was really going to happen.

My how things change.

It's an interesting discussion sometimes though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2007, 08:57:19 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 29, 2007, 08:43:29 PM
Pat the Poobah has used the "up to D-III" phrase many times.  Regardless of which preposition you took to get here, we're happy you made it, of course.   :)

Yeah, I'm actually not a fan. :)

Makes it seem like we think we have something to prove, or we think we're better than someone.

I think we are what we are and we should be comfortable with that, regardless of what any other division is or is doing. I am.

I know i just jumped into the middle of that discussion, but I felt like explaining why I would never use it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 08, 2007, 05:09:41 PM
The column was all kinds of personal this week, so if Pat is able to get it posted before you guys go to bed tonight, there should be a lot to talk about. I think it'll be a fun read that inspires a lot of personal memories on people's parts. I also asked for a bunch of your feedback.

Lucky for us, Pat's playoff projection has held down the front page all Thursday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2007, 06:02:27 PM
It's up. No worries. :)

Well, actually, had to scrape off some of the poetic wax, but we got it done.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 08, 2007, 07:00:26 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2007, 06:02:27 PM
It's up. No worries. :)

Well, actually, had to scrape off some of the poetic wax, but we got it done.

Aw, really.

What got dead? Did it not make sense or not move along?

PM me. Probably no big.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2007, 07:16:38 PM
Post was facetious, take it easy. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 08, 2007, 07:41:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2007, 07:16:38 PM
Post was facetious, take it easy. :)

Oh.

Although you rarely if ever cut anything, I'm not sure I would argue sometimes if you did.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: crufootball on November 08, 2007, 08:12:47 PM
Great column this week, nothing better than a good old fashioned rivalry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 08, 2007, 09:32:24 PM
Good to celebrate good healthy hate, as it were. Just as long as no one gets hurt...physically. Bruised egos notwithstanding...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on November 08, 2007, 09:53:42 PM
Pat your effort on your playoff projections took a lot of time. Would you pull your hair out if all ranked teams got upset.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 09, 2007, 12:02:03 AM
BTW, Mr. "Mount Union of the message boards", what's your pick on the current front page poll? ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2007, 12:09:22 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 09, 2007, 12:02:03 AM
BTW, Mr. "Mount Union of the message boards", what's your pick on the current front page poll? ;)

Ooh, I avoided it for a while. I finally voted for 0-14.

Before UWW-UMHB, I thought someone might have a chance at MUC in Salem. We can do the any given Saturday thing, but Mount usually has the depth and flexibility to withstand injury, so I'd have to be really convinced by a team's playoff run to think MUC will lose a game.

But shhh! Let's have fun not knowing who will win the first four weeks of the playoffs!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 09, 2007, 07:37:01 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 09, 2007, 12:09:22 AM
.......I thought someone might have a chance at MUC in Salem. We can do the any given Saturday thing, but Mount usually has the depth and flexibility to withstand injury, so I'd have to be really convinced by a team's playoff run to think MUC will lose a game.

But shhh! Let's have fun not knowing who will win the first four weeks of the playoffs!

That's what everyone (myself included) thought in 2003 as well. >:( 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on November 09, 2007, 01:45:20 PM
Keith,
For what it's worth, I don't think too many would ridicule you for giving a little cheer for your Yellow Jackets occasionally.

One of the things that torques off some of us Ohioans is watching Kirk Herbstreit constantly talk down about the Buckeyes.  It's almost like he purposely tries not to be a homer and goes too far in the other direction.  Just once, I'd like him to say, "The Buckeyes are darn good this year.  Yeah, I'm a Buckeye and I'm proud."

So, give credit where credit is due and don't be afraid to talk up your alma mater if they truly deserve it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on November 09, 2007, 10:58:03 PM
Maybe if Ohio State didn't play non-conference cream puffs Herbie and the rest of the country would give them a little love.  I know they don't usually play a marshmellow soft schedule (I see they have USC and Miami in the next couple of years and Texas in the past) but this year, it is what it is...fool the BCS once shame on you, fool the BCS twice shame on them... ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2007, 12:24:05 PM
ATN readers who want to have everything playoff-related at a grasp may want to take advantage of some nice work from Bob Gregg:

Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 10, 2007, 09:40:49 AM
I've put all the conference races, key games, head-to-head tiebreakers, AQ berths, Pool B & C eligibles all in one place:

http://www.wjpa.com/All-in-One-Races.htm

Hope someone else finds this useful today...

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on November 10, 2007, 12:41:44 PM
Quote from: OxyBob on November 10, 2007, 12:19:24 PM
Quote from: downtown48 on November 09, 2007, 10:58:03 PM
Maybe if Ohio State didn't play non-conference cream puffs Herbie and the rest of the country would give them a little love.

Show me a slower, fatter, more overrated slug of a team than Ohio State. OK, besides Notre Dame. Just like Florida, LSU or Oregon will destroy OSU. Yet another humiliating BCS bowl defeat for the Big 10.

OxyBob

Gameday was piling on this morning with the graphic they showed.  LSU has beaten 3 top 20 teams, Oregon has beaten 2, Ohio St. ----------wait for it--------none.   LSU and Oregon have the 12 and 13th SOS...Ohio St. ------- 63.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: downtown48 on November 10, 2007, 02:33:04 PM
Quote from: OxyBob on November 10, 2007, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: downtown48 on November 10, 2007, 12:41:44 PM
LSU and Oregon have the 12 and 13th SOS...Ohio St. ------- 63.

Sadly, I can relate to that.

OxyBob

You crack me up... :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2007, 12:19:57 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 09, 2007, 07:37:01 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 09, 2007, 12:09:22 AM
.......I thought someone might have a chance at MUC in Salem. We can do the any given Saturday thing, but Mount usually has the depth and flexibility to withstand injury, so I'd have to be really convinced by a team's playoff run to think MUC will lose a game.

But shhh! Let's have fun not knowing who will win the first four weeks of the playoffs!

That's what everyone (myself included) thought in 2003 as well. >:( 

Yeah, I know that's the stock reminder whenever anyone thinks that ... but whereas the past two years I saw a Whitewater team that had the talent to match, I don't know who that would be this year. MUC, as you know, is much more loaded this year than the '03 team was.

However, I will always agree the beauty of D3 is that you have to finish the deal with five more wins over teams that get increasingly better (usually). And Ithaca could be tougher than some of the teams we projected you to have in the first round.

And if not, at least it'll further the debate about the strength of the East, etc.

I definitely thought the committee got creative this year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 11, 2007, 09:12:39 PM
K-Mack,

Maybe not the board to ask but it is a national question.  How are the regions seeded and then paired for the semi final games?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2007, 10:51:43 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 11, 2007, 09:12:39 PM
K-Mack,

Maybe not the board to ask but it is a national question.  How are the regions seeded and then paired for the semi final games?

Yeah, we have answered this elsewhere before, but I can't remember exactly where.

Short answer, they are seeded by the strongest seed so that if all four number 1 seeds advanced, the fourth-best 1 seed would play the best one seed, "best" as determined by the committee.

Try pages 56-60 of Top 25 rankings if you want more detail. I think we discussed this a lot midseason as it related to certain teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 11:30:54 AM
Ok I thought that was the way.  Now answer this.  Not having my red shades on but if Central was worthy of a number 1 seed and its own region how did they fall to a 4 seed to get Mount Union?  They are ranked #3 in the country just curious on this part of the bracket as well as some other things.  Not complaining but if that is the way it is set up how did Central or Mount Union fall from 3-4 or 1-2 so that 1 plays 4 or 2 plays 3.  Just curious on your take. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 12, 2007, 11:40:23 AM
Only reason Central gets a top regional seed is because SJU lost to Bethel.  Otherwise the regions would have likely been:

1 Mount Union
2 Whitewater
3 St John's
4 W&J
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 11:51:49 AM
I don't dispute that at all.  But that still does not explain the regional seedings. Both SJU and Central were ranked higher than W&J was my question and point.  So I think the question still stands does it not?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2007, 12:34:32 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 11:51:49 AM
I don't dispute that at all.  But that still does not explain the regional seedings. Both SJU and Central were ranked higher than W&J was my question and point.  So I think the question still stands does it not?
The Rankings of any Poll, e.g., D3football.com or AFCA, do not now nor have they ever had any bearing on the seedings or Regional Rankings by Competition Committee.
:)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on November 12, 2007, 12:55:40 PM
And after the committee finishes with the final rankings they have to eat the copies so no one finds out their secrets.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 01:02:51 PM
Ralph,

If not the rankings what do they use?  Rock paper scissors? ;D ;D  I am just wondering how W&J went up or MUC or Central went down. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2007, 01:28:41 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 01:02:51 PM
Ralph,

If not the rankings what do they use?  Rock paper scissors? ;D ;D  I am just wondering how W&J went up or MUC or Central went down. 
I see the national seedings as:

1) MUC
2) UWW
3) W&J
4) Central

:)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 01:35:29 PM
That is what I took from it as well.  My question is still how does the Central bracket fall to a 4 from a strong #2 with UWW out I know that SJU losing hurts that but the D3 rankings which are not a criteria as stated put Central @ #3.  Having said that how is W&J ahead of Central?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 12, 2007, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 01:02:51 PM
Ralph,

If not the rankings what do they use?  Rock paper scissors? ;D ;D  I am just wondering how W&J went up or MUC or Central went down. 

They use their own rankings. They obviously disagreed with ours. That should be fairly clear to see, right?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 03:36:49 PM
Well that is the decsision that they came up with.  I am just wondering what goes into it. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 12, 2007, 03:39:47 PM
W & J was #1 in the South. I assume Central was #2 in the West after the St. John's loss. So when the decision was made to move Mt. Union East, it was a matter of a #1 over a #2. I would gather that's the logic.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 04:16:54 PM
That makes some sense but if that is the logic used(and it is not bad logic)  Could it not also be said that the reason for the move is that they are truly the #3 team in the field and thus the reason for moving UWW?  That being said then don't they become the #1 and equal.  I am not disputing and I know this line is moot and futile as that is the way it was decided but why else move MUC and UWW around?  Why not leave things the way they have been?  There are many questions that have been raised and I am not arguing that any of them are wrong just trying to get some insight. 

Pat, 

I am sure you are confused on all this as well.  I am pretty happy and you have to beat the best to be the best.  Does not matter if you meet MUC first round or at the Stagg if you want the Walnut and Bronze you have to beat MUC.  My position is that if UWW and Central needed to be split up then I would have thought that they would have been #2 and #3 not #2 and #4 is all. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 12, 2007, 04:22:01 PM
I'm not overly confused, no. They disagree with our rankings all of the time.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 12, 2007, 04:53:47 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 04:16:54 PM
That makes some sense but if that is the logic used(and it is not bad logic)  Could it not also be said that the reason for the move is that they are truly the #3 team in the field and thus the reason for moving UWW?  That being said then don't they become the #1 and equal.  I am not disputing and I know this line is moot and futile as that is the way it was decided but why else move MUC and UWW around?  Why not leave things the way they have been?  There are many questions that have been raised and I am not arguing that any of them are wrong just trying to get some insight. 

They wouldn't have moved Mt. Union if the East had someone even close to being a #1. Curry is no way a #1, it would be odd for a "C" (SJF) to be a #1, and evn if TCNJ had won I bet they would have moved Mt. Union. At least the NCAA had the chance to move Mt. Union because the mileage worked out.

As quality as the D-3 Top 25 is, it's not infallible. Central needs to prove it belongs, and the way to do that is to win no matter who is in their region or in their way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 05:04:55 PM
Oh I was also referring to the Whitworth pick over UWEC I was not talking about just the seedings sorry I should have stated that Pat.  But after all the things that went on with the bracket this year the seeding is a very minor thing.  I was just curious in the thought process Smedindy came up with a logical one for me and I accept it (even if I didn't I know nothing will change).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 12, 2007, 09:07:07 PM
I think this was a perfectly fine line of questioning, and generated some good responses (my favorite was knightstalker suggesting what they do with the rankings after)

Clearly the committee felt W&J was the third-strongest 1 seed in the field and Central was fourth.

The important thing to note is that, if I have it right, the committee does not rank the entire bracket to seed them, just the top seeds. (DutchFan, in your post from 1:35, you didn't seem to understand that)

Knowing that, everything you read on this thread should answer the question.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 12, 2007, 10:00:14 PM
K-Mack,

That was my impression from the start.  I just assumed and I know now that assuming was not the thing to do in this case that Central was the fourth now third ranked team in D3's poll and thought that would carry the weight but I was incorrect.  With W&J being what 4-5 spots back I felt that Central would be the 3 seed.  That is why I asked the question. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 12, 2007, 10:33:21 PM
I don't know what exactly made W&J preferable to Central, but they do use the same criteria used to select at-large teams, so I guess if we look closely at OWP, OOWP and such we might find the answer. They both had the same regional win pct. and no h2h or common opponents, I believe.

That might actually answer the question you're really getting at, which is 'why W&J over Central?'
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 13, 2007, 12:07:16 PM
K-Mack thanks that is kind of what I was asking was there set criteria for the seedings or was it more of a subjective thing.  That was all I was searching for.  Thanks to all who responded and tried to educate this slow guy. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 15, 2007, 02:23:48 PM
Great ATN again K-Mack

I do have one thing that I either didn't understand or you have wrong.  The Wartburg game was not OT this year it was only a 3 seconds from being OT Last year was the OT game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchHawk on November 15, 2007, 03:00:21 PM
As for the quiz on the front page pertaining to the Consensus Bracket picks...Bethel was not unanimous...as Kmack picked Central? hmmm
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 15, 2007, 03:55:54 PM
That's why I said consensus and not unanimous, oddly enough.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 15, 2007, 04:20:16 PM
"There isn't a team in [the East] bracket who would lose a game to anyone on Curry's schedule."

Except for Hartwick, right?

Edit:  Wow, I actually posted this before I read the following two paragraphs in the column.  I see that Keith said the same thing, I also see that Pat qualified his answer.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 15, 2007, 11:32:31 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 15, 2007, 02:23:48 PM
Great ATN again K-Mack

I do have one thing that I either didn't understand or you have wrong.  The Wartburg game was not OT this year it was only a 3 seconds from being OT Last year was the OT game.

Yep, my bad, so much stuff I remember off the top of my head that I really should check before printing. Just had that detail wrong.

Also, for anyone who cares, due to some behind-the-scenes reasons, apparently Pat had to finish one of my thoughts for me in the South ... I made some updates to that section and elsewhere in ATN.

Usually that'd discouraged, but you all know you were gonna re-read it anyway.

(meant to post this way earlier this evening)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dlippiel on November 16, 2007, 12:39:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There isn't a team in [the East] bracket who would lose a game to anyone on Curry's schedule."



This should be true! I cannot figure out how Hartwick lost that game to WNEC. Maybe having Utica drop 70 on them helped.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 25, 2007, 01:50:41 AM
Has anybody seen these lines posted for D3 games (http://www.fantasyinsideronline.com/view.asp?id=%7BDACA7D7D-E9A7-4087-A537-375C82F6D4D6%7D)?

Not sure who Dan Mesday is, someone who posts here under a different name or has some other kind of D3 connection, or a Vegas handicapper wannabe putting out odds on everything he can analyze. I really just stumbled upon them and thought I'd share, no judgement one way or the other.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on November 30, 2007, 08:08:03 PM
Castleton is adding football. Read the article on D3football. After living about 1 hour from Castleton VT, this one caught me off gaurd. Never Thought I would see a New England College add a sport.  Someone, or a group of people must of put a very special package together for this to happen.

If the winds are blowing the right way the air can get very cold off Lake Bomoseen. Lake effect from Lake Ontario sometimes makes it over the Adirondacks and can put it down.  One of the reasons I left.

Great town and they will support the team.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 30, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
Will the University of Vermont and St. Michael's College bring back football? If so, an interesting Vermont Conference, including Norwich and Middlebury, could be formed.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jmccloskey on December 02, 2007, 03:27:15 AM
Quote from: frank uible on November 30, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
Will the University of Vermont and St. Michael's College bring back football? If so, an interesting Vermont Conference, including Norwich and Middlebury, could be formed.

The North Atlantic Conference (NAC) has apparently decided to sponsor football starting in 2009.  Castleton will be one of seven colleges...Becker, Castleton State, Husson, Norwich, Mount Ida, SUNY Maritime, and...wait for it....Gallaudet.

First, someone needs to remind the NAC that, at present, FOUR of your seven members in any sport have to be core members to get an automatic in that sport, the NAC will have three in football.  WHY Gallaudet, out of Washington, DC, has decided to join a conference just to play football against teams mainly from Vermont and Maine, is anyone's guess.   ???

Gallaudet might be competitive in the conference, but the road trips would be something else.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 02, 2007, 03:42:34 AM
But the fall foliage will be unsurpassed!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2007, 08:48:55 AM
Quote from: jmccloskey on December 02, 2007, 03:27:15 AM
Quote from: frank uible on November 30, 2007, 08:20:21 PM
Will the University of Vermont and St. Michael's College bring back football? If so, an interesting Vermont Conference, including Norwich and Middlebury, could be formed.

The North Atlantic Conference (NAC) has apparently decided to sponsor football starting in 2009.  Castleton will be one of seven colleges...Becker, Castleton State, Husson, Norwich, Mount Ida, SUNY Maritime, and...wait for it....Gallaudet.

First, someone needs to remind the NAC that, at present, FOUR of your seven members in any sport have to be core members to get an automatic in that sport, the NAC will have three in football.  WHY Gallaudet, out of Washington, DC, has decided to join a conference just to play football against teams mainly from Vermont and Maine, is anyone's guess.   ???

Gallaudet might be competitive in the conference, but the road trips would be something else.
Maine Maritime is a football-playing member of the NAC, but currently plays in the NEFC Bogan. They can give their notice and move;  the NAC would get the football AQ after 2 years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 02, 2007, 09:18:38 AM
The University of Vermont is a D1 venue. If football returns it will compete in that division.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 02, 2007, 12:30:21 PM
If football would return to UVM, it would have to be be DI (unless UVM changed its NCAA divisional status) and consequently would be subject to DI football requirements but could play some or all DIII and other non- DI football opponents - as I understand it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 02, 2007, 12:40:43 PM
I take part of that back - if UVM were DI in football, at least one half of its football games would be required to be against DI opponents.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 02, 2007, 03:42:49 PM
In football, Vermont could go the D1AAA (i.e., D1AA non-scholarship) route. Given that they are fairly competitive in all other D1 sports (and highly competitive in D1 ice hockey), I don't see them moving up to D3 competition.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2007, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 02, 2007, 03:42:49 PM
In football, Vermont could go the D1AAA (i.e., D1AA non-scholarship) route. Given that they are fairly competitive in all other D1 sports (and highly competitive in D1 ice hockey), I don't see them moving up to D3 competition.
But do we really think that Middlebury would play them?

We grouse about the NESCAC every season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 02, 2007, 04:15:04 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2007, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 02, 2007, 03:42:49 PM
In football, Vermont could go the D1AAA (i.e., D1AA non-scholarship) route. Given that they are fairly competitive in all other D1 sports (and highly competitive in D1 ice hockey), I don't see them moving up to D3 competition.
But do we really think that Middlebury would play them?

We grouse about the NESCAC every season.

Middlebury resides in a galaxy "far, far away" from us mere mortals ....  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: repete on December 02, 2007, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 02, 2007, 03:42:49 PM
In football, Vermont could go the D1AAA (i.e., D1AA non-scholarship) route. Given that they are fairly competitive in all other D1 sports (and highly competitive in D1 ice hockey), I don't see them moving up to D3 competition.
Vermont hockey isn't all that great. It's been a while since they've made a Frozen Four.

But they are a decent Eastern team ... :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 02, 2007, 08:38:50 PM
Careful - let's not do something that might benefit the players.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2007, 01:15:59 PM
You guys hit about all my thoughts on the Vermont thing.

Their basketball team, coached by the guy who led Catholic to the title in 2000 (I think, Pat could speak a little more to it) is pretty successful these days too.

Only the I-AA non-scholarship scenario makes much sense, and even then it was a reach just so we could fill out the non-con Vermont skeds, right Frank?

Plenty of schools in Mass. and N.Y. that will need games.

The big question is will the NEFC champ draw the NAC champ in the playoffs and drub them :)

My initial guess is Husson and Norwich will be the contenders to start out.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 06, 2007, 03:09:05 PM
It was a r-r-r-e-e-e-a-a-a-c-c-c-h-h-h..
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2007, 08:19:11 PM
I don't know when the last update of our running D3 famous alumni list was, but I found two over the past two days in regular copy-editor research:

Myles Brand, Ph. D. Rochester (in addition to undergrad RPI)

and

Wally Pipp, Catholic (CUA) ... Pipp famously lost his first base job on the Yankees in 1925 to some whippersnapper named Lou Gehrig.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 07, 2007, 01:28:37 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 06, 2007, 08:19:11 PM
I don't know when the last update of our running D3 famous alumni list was, but I found two over the past two days in regular copy-editor research:

Myles Brand, Ph. D. Rochester (in addition to undergrad RPI)

and

Wally Pipp, Catholic (CUA) ... Pipp famously lost his first base job on the Yankees in 1925 to some whippersnapper named Lou Gehrig.

Well Wally should have taken a couple of aspirin and played with a headache.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 09, 2007, 09:09:42 PM
Anyone who has copies of the past two Stagg Bowls in any format, please let me know. I would like to watch both games this week, prior to the third straight UWW-MUC game.

Although I have a fairly extensive Stagg Bowl library, I do not have either of those games.

E-Mail: Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 10, 2007, 11:24:18 PM
Repeating my call, and adding another:

Hey,
Anyone who knows of any prominent MUC or UWW alum planning to go to the game Saturday (and by prominent, I probably mean ex-players, but be creative), drop the name and probable arrival time to Keith@D3football.com. Might respond with a request for more info.

Also, I have several Stagg Bowls on video, but I do not have the access to the past two. If anyone has those games in full, especially either on DVD or online somewhere, please let me know at the same e-mail address.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 26, 2007, 12:32:32 AM
First Year-In-Review installment posted. Finally.

You know, if anyone out there is still reading :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 26, 2007, 07:50:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 26, 2007, 12:32:32 AM
First Year-In-Review installment posted. Finally.

You know, if anyone out there is still reading :)

I'm still here. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on December 26, 2007, 09:33:43 AM
Quote from: hscoach on December 26, 2007, 07:50:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 26, 2007, 12:32:32 AM
First Year-In-Review installment posted. Finally.

You know, if anyone out there is still reading :)

I'm still here. ;D

Me too..............although recovering slowly from all the festivities and indulgences of the season.   ;)  Happy Holidays to you, Keith and hscoach.  Great first installment of the Review. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 26, 2007, 10:35:51 AM
Me three ... good job on the installment, K-Mack!   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 26, 2007, 01:40:06 PM
Thanks guys. Good to know you're out there.

It gets much better. I think they go in order, 1-3, as far as most fun stuff in the installments. The third one is all our awards and funny memories from the year.

Sorry it takes so long, was really trying to get them up earlier this year. I mean, December is nice, but ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KitchenSink on December 26, 2007, 01:41:56 PM
You went from the central core out to a lot of corners of the D3 HQ to put together that piece, K-M.

A great read.  Nicely done.  Looking forward to the next one ....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on December 27, 2007, 10:24:49 AM
What they said.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: stealth on December 31, 2007, 04:47:23 PM
K-Mack & Pat,
I don't think that there is anybody on the planet that could get close to what you and the D3 team bring to the table. 4 years of watching you grow as a reporters and the D3.com team in general. Sorry I won't have a vested interest in tracking the football boards next year but I can ensure you I will be checking in just to get the low down. Been a hell of ride K-Mack. Going out as #1 is a good thing right footballfan413 ?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: footballfan413 on December 31, 2007, 06:40:38 PM
You betcha! Doesn't get any better and remember, Stealth............   ;)

ONCE A WARHAWK, ALWAYS A WARHAWK!!       
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on December 31, 2007, 06:42:40 PM
Quote from: stealth on December 31, 2007, 04:47:23 PM
Sorry I won't have a vested interest in tracking the football boards next year but I can ensure you I will be checking in just to get the low down. 

Check in more and have fun with the memories, you may see things in a different light and become more involved than you think.

Happy New Year to all..

may it be safe
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on January 05, 2008, 01:13:29 AM
NCAA.Org has changed the home page and layout. Contents still the same. Also they have a new quartley magazine coming out called Champion. which you can get for $15.00 a year. College get free copies.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: crufootball on January 05, 2008, 02:00:50 AM
doubt we could already know but what are the chances Champion has much about D3 football or D3 sports in general?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 07, 2008, 10:22:28 PM
Yet another well-argued point for the playoffs vs. the BCS. The Washington Post (full disclosure: Where I now work) wrote a story talking to Appalachian State and their AD who used to be at N.C. State asking if the playoff system that works at a sports-happy Appy State could work in I-A.

Division I-AA Shows Argument For Playoffs Isn't All Academic (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/06/AR2008010602034.html)

I'm sure there are several other threads where this would fit.

Also,
been commuting into D.C., and this now continues the Weird D3 sightings from earlier in this thread:
Have seen two Denison stickers and an Oberlin on cars in D.C. In No. Va. malls yesterday, saw a guy with a Waynesburg shirt/hat, (something else I'm forgetting) and an M.I.T. sticker. And a Catholic sweatshirt, but that's to be expected :)

Thought I saw Olivet too, but it turned out to be something else.

It also appears Trinity has just won the Pontiac Game-Changing Play of the Year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2008, 08:00:42 PM
Georgia Prez giving more love to the I-A playoff idea (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/08/AR2008010802988.html?nav=hcmoduletmv).

The thought's been raised, in the wake of Ohio State's consecutive title game drubbings, that 3rd week of Nov. until late in the 1st week of Jan. is too long between games. :light bulb:
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 14, 2008, 02:36:42 AM
Hey, stumbled upon an end zone angle to the Trinity-Millsaps play, which if you've never seen it before from this angle (I hadn't, and didn't know there was a second angle floating around out there) it does give you a new impression of things. Particularly how tiring it was for Millsaps guys, especially the last one hustling who tried to make the tackle on Curry at the end then puts his hands on his hips like "We did not just lose that game that way." ... and then goes to hands-on-knees.

http://www.fantasycollegeblitz.com/ArticleDetail.asp?id=1085

This is the junk I find researching for YIR.

Also,
Learned that recently fired Dolphins GM Randy Mueller had been a Linfield guy, which had given us two GMs (the other is Sewanee's Phil Savage).

Also someone recently in the news started out at Occidental ... Oh snap, Barack Obama, that's who. I knew he had a Hawaii connection and all I could think of was June Jones.

Anyway, maybe that'll be one of my offseason goals, to start the proper D3 alums thread.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 14, 2008, 02:57:25 AM
Also, in the personal ramblings department, it's frickin' impossible to find anything on the Don Hansen site, but I am looking for preseason rankings ... because the more sets of rankings I find (I have 7 in mind), the more I get to trash (mine own included) in YIR.

I did find a tale of Craig Burroughs' 2007 visit to St. John's, which was interesting. FWIW.

http://donhansen.blogspot.com/2007_09_24_archive.html

The overall site though, given my experience there just now, in 2008, I find it really, really hard to believe the below is true :)

Don Hansen's National Weekly Football Gazette was the first publication to exclusively cover Small College Football.  The Football Gazette was also the first to go online with it's coverage.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 14, 2008, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 14, 2008, 02:57:25 AM
...
I did find a tale of Craig Burroughs' 2007 visit to St. John's, which was interesting. FWIW.

http://donhansen.blogspot.com/2007_09_24_archive.html

The overall site though, given my experience there just now, in 2008, I find it really, really hard to believe the below is true :)

Don Hansen's National Weekly Football Gazette was the first publication to exclusively cover Small College Football.  The Football Gazette was also the first to go online with it's coverage.
K-Mack, I found this tale of mis-behavior particularly instructive.  Fortunately, we have not had an end zone gang get out of hand in D3.

Delta State-Henderson State (http://donhansen.blogspot.com/2007/09/red-zone-for-92407.html#links)

As for how long Don Hansen has been doing this, there were some very early pioneers in this field who have fallen by the wayside.  I would like to find some archives of his Don's mid-1990's work.

It is quite clear which site has grown to be the leader in Division III coverage.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 14, 2008, 10:57:36 AM
You can use the internet wayback machine (http://www.archive.org) to see a site's history - if anyone can figure out the URL of Hansen's original site.  The archive goes back to 1996.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 15, 2008, 03:15:35 AM
Ron, good suggestion on the wayback machine, have used that once before. Although I'm starting to think that, in 30 or 45 minutes last night, if I could browse the site and never find the preseason ranking, maybe no one else did either, so what's the point of me reviewing it?

Also, Ralph, I have heard of some other publications that used to do the small college thing, so I believe you are right there. The only online presence I remember when I played was the Centennial-run site, whose basketball affiliate was the precursor to D3hoops.

As you well know, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 15, 2008, 09:21:12 AM
When I discovered the internet and D3 in 1999-2000, Columbus Multimedia was the other site that was giving coverage, especially in Hoops.

That makes me a relative newbie!   :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on January 15, 2008, 06:15:35 PM
There was a decent D3 football site pre 1999  but I no longer have the bookmark. I remember that there was one person running it. I can't remember the exact circumstances of it's demise but time issues(career). Pat would know better than I but I recall that it wasn't cheap to run a site even then
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 15, 2008, 11:04:43 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on January 15, 2008, 06:15:35 PM
There was a decent D3 football site pre 1999  but I no longer have the bookmark. I remember that there was one person running it. I can't remember the exact circumstances of it's demise but time issues(career). Pat would know better than I but I recall that it wasn't cheap to run a site even then

It's the same one I was referring to.

It was called Division III Football Online, and I believe it was maintained by Steve Ullrich, who is now the commissioner of the Centennial. It was not necessarily comprehensive, but it did feature news -- yours truly was mentioned on there when I was among the nation's interceptions leaders briefly, so it holds a special place in my heart.

If I recall correctly, Pat took over the basketball operation from Ullrich in 1997.

In 1999, Pat offered to do the same for football, but was rebuffed. After a year or two of D3football.com however, it became pretty clear there was no need for two sites and the other one shut down.

I don't believe there are any hard feelings. Ullrich seems to have done OK for himself as commish, and running a site might not be something a commissioner wants to be/should be involved in ... where clearly Pat's laptop would be a dusty, lonely instrument if not for these sites.

I bet there's an About Us somewhere that clears this all up.

OK, actually, there isn't, and the FAQ could really use an update too (as well as my bio, which I've been meaning to do since my wife read it and realized she and the kids weren't acknowledged)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 15, 2008, 11:29:38 PM
Feel free to rewrite it, probably a good time of year before D3hoops goes totally nuts.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 15, 2008, 11:33:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 15, 2008, 11:29:38 PM
Feel free to rewrite it, probably a good time of year before D3hoops goes totally nuts.

Does K-Mack actually recognize basketball as a sport?  I thought his four seasons were football, football recruiting, spring football, and soaking up sun waiting for football. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 15, 2008, 11:59:23 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 15, 2008, 11:33:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 15, 2008, 11:29:38 PM
Feel free to rewrite it, probably a good time of year before D3hoops goes totally nuts.

Does K-Mack actually recognize basketball as a sport?  I thought his four seasons were football, football recruiting, spring football, and soaking up sun waiting for football. ;D

Funny.

It's even funnier if you ever try to have a conversation with me about a D3 school that doesn't have football. Transy-who? What's the MASCAC?

I actually like basketball a lot, but after devoting most non-work waking hours to D3football from June/July-January (including Kickoff and YIR), I'm really losing my sanity just ready for a break.

When Pat hires me full-time, I'll work on basketball, baseball and the soccer sites. Goooooo Wheaton (Mass.)!

P.S. I wouldn't mind rewriting the football FAQs, especially if we don't place a high value on having our information correct.

(realizes how one-dimensional I am)

Seriously, just let me know how.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 16, 2008, 12:01:07 AM
Also, if I was any good at hoops, I could no longer claim to be the Mount Union of the Message Board.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on January 21, 2008, 03:44:35 PM
Article about Canada's Universities and Colleges heading south of the border.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080121.CISNCAA21/TPStory/Sports
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 24, 2008, 04:51:28 AM
Anybody ever heard of Reclaiming the Game (http://books.google.com/books?id=ElqmoBZLHyUC&dq=nescac+football+champions)?

Appears to have a portion about the NESCAC and its reasons for its football isolationism. You can preview on Google Books.

Not sure if it breaks any new ground, but thought I'd ask and post the link before I forget.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on January 24, 2008, 08:23:38 AM
Here' another review of that book.
http://www.aaup.org/AAUP/pubsres/academe/2004/MJ/Feat/sper.htm

I'm pretty sure Ralph Turner has discussed it in the past.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on January 29, 2008, 01:58:40 PM
Just read the last part of ATN YIR. I'm shocked that I actually finished second in the predictions! Maybe I can have PC put that on my bio for ATR East next season.  ::)



Keith: It's a long read, but it's good.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ScheckDiesel on January 29, 2008, 02:16:26 PM
Great Job Keith... I especially loved the part about Tom... if you thought that him and Brez was a great sight to see, you should have seen Forrest Perkins and Brez address the team back at Whitewater... absolutely amazing...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2008, 02:42:18 PM
Keith, thanks for the shouts-out on the Dixie Pig and the vintage McMurry Indians sweats (now collectible items).  We fans do appreciate your efforts every fall to get out to see D3.  Your having seen four "All-South" Region QB candidates speaks volumes about your dedication to providing the finest D3football coverage in the country.

The first-hand reports give us fans the chance to enjoy our favorite sports thru your eyes!

Someday, I hope we can meet again in Abilene.  I would love to host you at The Perini Ranch Steakhouse (http://www.periniranch.com/), a real five-star restaurant.  (Texas Monthly rated their steaks third best in the state of Texas.)

Great ATN finale!  Looking forward to 2008!  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Josh Bowerman on January 29, 2008, 08:48:16 PM
Only if I can come, too, Ralph--that's where we had the rehersal dinner beffore we got married--and spend a Sunday afternoon or two!

I, too, enjoyed the column--thanks for the props, Keith.  Looking forward to next year already!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Quote from: ScheckDiesel on January 29, 2008, 02:16:26 PMGreat Job Keith... I especially loved the part about Tom... if you thought that him and Brez was a great sight to see, you should have seen Forrest Perkins and Brez address the team back at Whitewater... absolutely amazing...

Yeah, that must've been a moment. A lot of history in one room right there.

This guy (you gotta scroll down some) could've received a Survivor Award in part 2:

Quote from: cwru70 on January 24, 2008, 11:04:22 AM
This CWRU WR isn't afaid to go over the middle since he's already been hit by a truck!

http://www.case.edu/athletics/varsity/news.htm#s1_page2

Even with 12,000-word installments, I still miss stuff!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:14:52 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2008, 02:42:18 PM
Someday, I hope we can meet again in Abilene.  I would love to host you at The Perini Ranch Steakhouse (http://www.periniranch.com/), a real five-star restaurant.  (Texas Monthly rated their steaks third best in the state of Texas.)

I can't even explain how hungry that just made me.

How far is Buffalo Gap from civilization? 463 people?

I could be headed to Texas for a third straight season ... that's if I can somehow manage to get Saturdays off this fall.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:30:06 PM
I seriously am going to start the D3 alumni thread on its own this offseason.

Just learned that Patriots OC Josh McDaniels went to John Carroll when London Fletcher was there.

The Patriots are good for promoting them ol' D3 boys!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2008, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:14:52 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2008, 02:42:18 PM
Someday, I hope we can meet again in Abilene.  I would love to host you at The Perini Ranch Steakhouse (http://www.periniranch.com/), a real five-star restaurant.  (Texas Monthly rated their steaks third best in the state of Texas.)

I can't even explain how hungry that just made me.

How far is Buffalo Gap from civilization? 463 people?

I could be headed to Texas for a third straight season ... that's if I can somehow manage to get Saturdays off this fall.
Buffalo Gap is civilization...kinda like Luckenbach but with better cuisine!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on January 30, 2008, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2008, 10:43:51 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:14:52 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 29, 2008, 02:42:18 PM
Someday, I hope we can meet again in Abilene.  I would love to host you at The Perini Ranch Steakhouse (http://www.periniranch.com/), a real five-star restaurant.  (Texas Monthly rated their steaks third best in the state of Texas.)

I can't even explain how hungry that just made me.

How far is Buffalo Gap from civilization? 463 people?

I could be headed to Texas for a third straight season ... that's if I can somehow manage to get Saturdays off this fall.
Buffalo Gap is civilization...kinda like Luckenbach but with better cuisine!  ;)

You have to be careful about words like cuisine in Abilene Ralph.  We're dignified but it is still west texas.  Cuisine makes me think of small portions and going broke and hugnry at the same time. You know that don't fly out here. ;) ;D

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 30, 2008, 11:14:43 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:30:06 PM
I seriously am going to start the D3 alumni thread on its own this offseason.

Just learned that Patriots OC Josh McDaniels went to John Carroll when London Fletcher was there.

The Patriots are good for promoting them ol' D3 boys!

Nick Caserio, too:
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2002/11/05/A+Division+III+reunion+in+the+NFL
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 30, 2008, 11:20:43 AM
One more, Matt Patricia from RPI:

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=coachbio&bio=30252
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on January 30, 2008, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:09:43 PM


This guy (you gotta scroll down some) could've received a Survivor Award in part 2:

Even with 12,000-word installments, I still miss stuff!

This survivor was in Around The Region (Great Lakes) too
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-region/greatlakes/2007/Case%27s+Cowdrick+is+comeback+kid
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 31, 2008, 01:57:07 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 30, 2008, 11:14:43 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:30:06 PM
I seriously am going to start the D3 alumni thread on its own this offseason.

Just learned that Patriots OC Josh McDaniels went to John Carroll when London Fletcher was there.

The Patriots are good for promoting them ol' D3 boys!

Nick Caserio, too:
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2002/11/05/A+Division+III+reunion+in+the+NFL

Wow, that link's so old the Pats played in Foxboro.

(copy editor humor; it's OK if you are not amused)

Remember I went through that NFL guide and tallied all the D3 alums in the NFL? There were a bunch form Springfield, inclduing one of hte Schottenhemiers, I think (awful typing there, sorry) ... too bad NFL staffs turn over so often the list was basically out of date when I made it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 31, 2008, 01:58:14 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 30, 2008, 11:20:43 AM
One more, Matt Patricia from RPI:

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=coachbio&bio=30252

Point taken. The Patriots are the Patriots of opportunity for D3ers.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 31, 2008, 02:00:45 AM
Quote from: cwru70 on January 30, 2008, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:09:43 PM

This guy (you gotta scroll down some) could've received a Survivor Award in part 2:

Even with 12,000-word installments, I still miss stuff!

This survivor was in Around The Region (Great Lakes) too
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-region/greatlakes/2007/Case%27s+Cowdrick+is+comeback+kid

I actually read that. Really I did. Just got lost in the glut of D3 facts floating in my mind/notebook/laptop.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on January 31, 2008, 07:56:50 AM
K-Mack   No criticism was intended.  The columns were still an amazing season re-cap.  Thanx
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 31, 2008, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 31, 2008, 01:57:07 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 30, 2008, 11:14:43 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:30:06 PM
I seriously am going to start the D3 alumni thread on its own this offseason.

Just learned that Patriots OC Josh McDaniels went to John Carroll when London Fletcher was there.

The Patriots are good for promoting them ol' D3 boys!

Nick Caserio, too:
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2002/11/05/A+Division+III+reunion+in+the+NFL

Wow, that link's so old the Pats played in Foxboro.

(copy editor humor; it's OK if you are not amused)

Sadly, that was the first thing I noticed when I opened the story. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on January 31, 2008, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 29, 2008, 10:30:06 PM
I seriously am going to start the D3 alumni thread on its own this offseason.

Just learned that Patriots OC Josh McDaniels went to John Carroll when London Fletcher was there.

The Patriots are good for promoting them ol' D3 boys!

Its funny.  I was listening to WEEI radio the other day in Boston and they spoke about McDaniels and how he went to Baldwin Wallace. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: section13raiderfan on February 01, 2008, 06:39:43 PM
Well, he DID go to Baldwwin Wallace. To play against them. Its a technicality,but ultimately true. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 03, 2008, 01:51:22 AM
For EEI, getting the division right is an accomplishment. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 03, 2008, 11:12:25 PM
Pat and I agreed before the Giants took the lead in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl that the Patriots losing would be strongly akin to Mount Union losing the Stagg Bowl this year.

With both having an undefeated, loaded, team for the ages that was probably better than some of their teams that did finish the job and all ...

Not much in common with the NYGs and UW-W though.

Just thought I'd share.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on February 04, 2008, 10:22:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on February 03, 2008, 11:12:25 PM
Pat and I agreed before the Giants took the lead in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl that the Patriots losing would be strongly akin to Mount Union losing the Stagg Bowl this year.

With both having an undefeated, loaded, team for the ages that was probably better than some of their teams that did finish the job and all ...

Not much in common with the NYGs and UW-W though.

Just thought I'd share.

There is a lot in common with the Giants and UWW, both won the championship while being big underdogs.  Both shut down the best offense at their level with a great defensive game plan and execution
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 04, 2008, 12:10:33 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on February 04, 2008, 10:22:06 AM
...
Both shut down the best offense at their level with a great defensive game plan and execution.
+1!  I agree!  The defense of the [/use best Howard Cosell voice] New York Football Giants [/close Howard Cosell voice] was incredible!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 04, 2008, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on February 04, 2008, 10:22:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on February 03, 2008, 11:12:25 PM
Pat and I agreed before the Giants took the lead in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl that the Patriots losing would be strongly akin to Mount Union losing the Stagg Bowl this year.

With both having an undefeated, loaded, team for the ages that was probably better than some of their teams that did finish the job and all ...

Not much in common with the NYGs and UW-W though.

Just thought I'd share.

There is a lot in common with the Giants and UWW, both won the championship while being big underdogs.  Both shut down the best offense at their level with a great defensive game plan and execution

If you insist.

I was sort of thinking coaching change vs. no coaching change, MVP RB (Gags Trophy) vs. no MVP, new QB vs. veteran QB that came of age, UWW lost in the past two title games and was expected to get back while the Giants were a bit of a suprise to even be in the Super Bowl.

I guess if we mince we could find some comparisons, but I stick by my original MUC-Patriots comparison. I agree that both defenses shut down an all-time great offense though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on February 10, 2008, 03:12:58 PM
I would say the comparisn would be true if MUC had 5 close games down the stretch and then all of their playoff games were close.  Or if they snuck by UWW in the last game of the regular season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 11, 2008, 10:42:54 PM
So with Marietta, St. Olaf and Coe now looking for head coaches, do we think Jim Zebrowski will coach somewhere next season?

Can't imagine there's many better candidates streaming in, although having a tie to the school already (i.e. current coordinator) is often an advantage.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 29, 2008, 10:50:03 PM
You can't imagine my joy in reading the D-IV Dies headline.

Not only is that bad idea buried, but I'm off the hook for writing a massive story about the possibility!

(Pat, we still going to the '09 convention anyway?)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 30, 2008, 04:03:32 PM
Well, we should, since it's right here.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 30, 2008, 11:36:06 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 30, 2008, 04:03:32 PM
Well, we should, since it's right here.
\

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: doolittledog on March 31, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Did you guys consider buying the domain name d4football.com???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 31, 2008, 02:08:55 PM
Yep, we bought it over a year ago just in case.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: reality check on March 31, 2008, 04:43:22 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on March 31, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Did you guys consider buying the domain name d4football.com???

Would their games have been covered by ESPN8?  (The OCHO!)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on March 31, 2008, 04:48:50 PM
Quote from: reality check on March 31, 2008, 04:43:22 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on March 31, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Did you guys consider buying the domain name d4football.com???

Would their games have been covered by ESPN8?  (The OCHO!)

RC,

ESPN passed ESPN8 a long time ago:

ESPN
ESPN International
ESPN2
ESPN Brasil
ESPNEWS
ESPN Classic
ESPN Classic Canada
ESPN Deportes
ESPNU
ESPN on ABC
ESPN Plus
ESPN Australia HD
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on April 01, 2008, 11:26:10 AM
Nice work on the upgrade...I like the site banner but I have a feeling that the SJU posters are going to have fun with the picture on the far right.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 01, 2008, 11:30:06 AM
It's a Johnnie who's getting posted up on. They might want to think twice.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 06, 2008, 12:21:12 AM
Quote from: doolittledog on March 31, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Did you guys consider buying the domain name d4football.com???

It was either that or www.d3football.com/d4 :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 08, 2008, 10:30:45 PM
Somewhere -- probably on D3baseball.com -- Ralph Turner is smiling.

QuoteMcMurry player's home run streak snapped at 7 consecutive games

    ABILENE, Texas (AP) — McMurry's Derek David had his streak of consecutive games with a home run snapped at seven Tuesday, one short of the NCAA record.
    David, a third baseman, had already set a Division III record and was looking to tie the all-Division mark of eight consecutive games with a home run shared by Ryan Jackson of Duke (1994) and Andy Bruce of Georgia Tech (1991).
    David went 2-for-5 in McMurry's 7-4 victory over Wayland Baptist.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 09, 2008, 02:09:11 PM
Yes, we've been covering it regularly there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: muledaddy on April 19, 2008, 06:17:30 PM
K-Mack,ndefeated
Thank you for giving  Eric Santagato  , diminutive Mule quarterback  the props  he deserves, as a little

undefeated(regular seson) general, who returns with a wealth of experience and the amunition to go deeper into the playoffs......63 per cent completions, minimal interceptions, and high overall efficiency
make the Mules feel good about another year in the top 10...if injuries don't cripple
tus.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 27, 2008, 07:18:31 PM
It helped that I saw him play three pretty good halves in the playoffs against Salisbury and Wesley.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on May 16, 2008, 06:18:21 PM
At least one D-1 guy has some common sense.

QuoteFSU president: College football playoff inevitable

By JAIME ARON
AP Sports Writer
    GRAPEVINE, Texas (AP) — Here's a ray of hope for college football fans bummed by the recent rejection of the plus-one model to determine a national champion.
    The president of Florida State not only believes a playoff is coming, he thinks it'll start with four teams, then grow to eight and eventually 16.
    "The bottom line is the money, unfortunately, is going to drive the train," FSU's T.K. Wetherell said. "The 12th game, right now, is solving the problem. The reason there is a 12th game in football is the money. People may not want to admit that, but that's the facts of the matter."
    Wetherell's comments came Friday at the National Football Forum, during a panel discussion of the future of college football. He spoke after the playoff concept was pretty much rejected by Ohio State coach Jim Tressel, Washington coach Ty Willingham, Kansas coach Mark Mangino, TCU coach Gary Patterson, Notre Dame athletic director Kevin White and Army athletic director Kevin Anderson.
    "Who is it for?" Willingham asked.
    Tressel emphasized scheduling problems that would be taxing for players physically and for their studies. Mangino talked about changes spoiling the fun of bowls.
    "If you go to a championship, there's first and second and that's it," Anderson said, a theme Patterson touched on, too, by noting the current system produced 32 bowl winners.
    "We have a tournament — it starts the first week in September," White said.
    Grant Teaff, executive director of the American Football Coaches Association, spoke up, too, crediting the BCS for record levels of attendance and television ratings.
    Getting his say at the very end, Wetherell turned the discussion upside down.
    "In my judgment, if you take every argument that's been made today and apply it to any other sport on a college campus, then you'd have to cancel the (College) World Series, the Final Four, the soccer tournament," he said. "If you want to do it, it can be done. ...
    "Everybody's going to be sitting here — I don't know, probably not in my lifetime at Florida State — saying, 'You know, we really could move this back. And, by the way, we do play 63 baseball games and we play baseball through two final-exam periods, not one. Somehow, they all seem to graduate and do pretty good. Oh, those basketball players, we have a real problems with academics in basketball, but we seem to play right on through the tournament."'
    Once the problems are solved and the "ungodly amount of money that it will produce" starts rolling in, Wetherell expects everyone decide it's a good thing and want more of it.
    "It'll start off with plus-one, then it'll go to four or eight or 16 at some point in time — just like the NCAA (basketball) tournament," he said.
    Commissioners from the Bowl Championship Series leagues, plus White, met in Florida two weeks ago and opted to keep their national champion format the same at least until the 2014 season. In doing so, they rejected the plus-one model, which essentially is a four-team playoff. The No. 1 team would face No. 4 and Nos. 2 and 3 would meet, then both winners would square off in a championship game.
    Only the Southeastern Conference — whose commissioner, Mike Slive, presented the plus-one plan — and the Atlantic Coast Conference, which includes Florida State, even wanted to keep talking about the new format.
    According to Wetherell, schools are happy to stick with the status quo because budgets are padded with money from the 12th game, which was added for the 2006 season.
    "We'll spend all that money. We're not going to bank it," Wetherell said. "Then the question will be, 'Where do I get me more money?"'
    A playoff will be the logical alternative, Wetherell said.
    "And the fight won't be over whether we do it or not anymore," he said during a break following the session. "The fight's going to be on the split. It's going to be a totally different discussion."
    Wetherell, who played receiver at Florida State in the 1960s with Bobby Bowden as his position coach, closed his remarks with this prediction: "Now, I don't think it's going to happen this year or next year or whenever. But it is going to happen. No doubt about it."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Teamski on May 17, 2008, 01:23:37 AM
Well stated!!  Man what a rush it would be to see it actually happen.

-Ski
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on May 18, 2008, 02:05:42 AM
it would be a rush, but it'll never happen. Greedy bastards.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on June 09, 2008, 08:23:10 AM
For your summer reading, please consider

The Best Game Ever (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121297267361255961.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries)

Steve Wulf, the Executive Editor of ESPN The Magazine, writes the review.

;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on July 23, 2008, 12:25:27 PM
ATN:  If you need to plan another trip to watch the Wildcats here is their season schedule from Google Maps.  :)

2008 Linfield Football via Google Maps (http://www.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=101097580035243215277.000452a32a030317264bd)

Just click on the Wildcat Icons or information bar on the left for game information.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 11, 2008, 10:34:48 PM
Anyone reading anything (perhaps discussing elsewhere on this board) about this A-11 offense?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=weinreb/080811

http://poststar.com/wordpress/?p=5968&cat=5

(Wash. Post tomorrow)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 11, 2008, 10:37:59 PM
Yes, SCIAC, HCAC and IIAC boards have talked about it. SCIAC currently. IIAC picked up an earlier version of the story.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 16, 2008, 01:37:22 AM
I really need to get out more, huh?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 17, 2008, 01:28:39 PM
That's alright, busy time of year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 18, 2008, 10:34:33 PM
And it gets busier.

Unrelated to Kickoff, anyone out there have graphic design skills? PM me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on August 21, 2008, 03:56:00 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 11, 2008, 10:34:48 PM
Anyone reading anything (perhaps discussing elsewhere on this board) about this A-11 offense?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=weinreb/080811

http://poststar.com/wordpress/?p=5968&cat=5

(Wash. Post tomorrow)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 11, 2008, 10:37:59 PM
Yes, SCIAC, HCAC and IIAC boards have talked about it. SCIAC currently. IIAC picked up an earlier version of the story.


K-Mack you know we get around on the IIAC board.   ;D ;D ;D  Are you up for the pickems this year.  We have enjoyed your two cents.  If you do go to the IIAC pickem board.  We have a tie breaker survey this year.  Might be some more fun. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 22, 2008, 10:42:39 PM
Oh boy. I gotta make sure if I do pick 'ems not to miss a week. I had a chance last year!

Knee-deep in Kickoff, but I'll give it some thought next week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on August 23, 2008, 11:54:56 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 22, 2008, 10:42:39 PM
Oh boy. I gotta make sure if I do pick 'ems not to miss a week. I had a chance last year!

Knee-deep in Kickoff, but I'll give it some thought next week.

If you have a chance go to the pickem board we came up with some tie breaking.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 02:32:15 PM
Where's everyone talking about how awesome/not awesome kickoff is?

I'm expecting to take a beating for some of my predictions. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on August 26, 2008, 04:13:11 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 02:32:15 PM
Where's everyone talking about how awesome/not awesome kickoff is?

I'm expecting to take a beating for some of my predictions. :)

I'll check the "awesome" box.  You guys have once again outdone yourselves!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on August 26, 2008, 06:59:56 PM
K-Mack:  Great job as always. 

Only exception I have is the prediction that ONU will finish ahead of Capital. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 08:13:43 PM
Quote from: hscoach on August 26, 2008, 06:59:56 PM
Only exception I have is the prediction that ONU will finish ahead of Capital. 

So you're cool with the part where I have Mount Union not going to the Stagg Bowl? :shock:
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wesleydad on August 26, 2008, 08:20:12 PM
keith, i see nothing wrong with your predictions, especially the national champs :D.  i like the fact that you went out on a limb and picked someone different, in fact several different teams.  i have posted on the acfc site and the preview site about how awesome it is and how great a job you guys have done.  i wll give my props here also.  anyone who frequents this site needs to purchase the preview just for the shear amount of work you guys have put into it. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: doolittledog on August 26, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 02:32:15 PM
Where's everyone talking about how awesome/not awesome kickoff is?

I'm expecting to take a beating for some of my predictions. :)

Great job on kickoff. 

Just a few little things.  I notice you have Carleton finishing 3-7 overall and 1-7 in the MIAC.  You also have Cornell going 2-8 overall and 0-8 in the IIAC.  So both of those teams would be going 2-0 in their non-con schedules.  The problem with that is they play each other.  So both going 2-0 can't happen!!!  Also you have Dubuque last conference title in 1978 and it is actually 1980. 

But, the fact that you did all this data on 239 teams amazes me.  Fantastic job and I appreciate all the work you guys do to keep us updated on D3 football.  I will have fun looking back at the kickoff in November and see how close you came in your predictions.  You were pretty close for the IIAC last year!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 09:03:53 PM
Guess this can be the unofficial home of Kickoff response (love or hate) until everyone figures out they can comment inside the walls.

Either that or consider it my own personal collection.

From the NCAC board:
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 26, 2008, 03:24:32 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on August 25, 2008, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 25, 2008, 01:16:16 PMThanks to Wabash fans, who continue to be tied for the lead in Kickoff sales!

Thank you for putting together this awesome preview each year.  I'm looking forward to blowing off half a day of work tomorrow sifting through all of the new material.    ;)

It's bigger this year. Will take you longer to read it all!

Maybe next year we should do a quiz ... first person to get a factoid from every article wins a refund!

Also, glad to be contributing to the not-working of America's workforce from now until Sept. 6 and beyond.

(is a Patriot)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 09:08:11 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on August 26, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
Just a few little things.  I notice you have Carleton finishing 3-7 overall and 1-7 in the MIAC.  You also have Cornell going 2-8 overall and 0-8 in the IIAC.  So both of those teams would be going 2-0 in their non-con schedules.  The problem with that is they play each other.  So both going 2-0 can't happen!!!  Also you have Dubuque last conference title in 1978 and it is actually 1980. 

Wow, Gordon even dedicated himself to checking for those specific occurrences, and came up with four pages of conflicting results. I'll look into it, and if i have to make a change, I'll use whoever we ranked higher in 1-239 :)

Thanks though for validating a point Pat and I made during an internal discussion: Readers are smart, you guys notice even seemingly small discrepancies and anything we can do to eliminate those makes your reading experience smoother, and preserves our credibility.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 11:12:47 PM
This tells me football season is nearly upon us!

Quote140 Guests, 30 Users Users active in past 15 minutes:
calvin_grad, cwru70, K-Mack, Conrad, sportsknight, Ralph Turner, TigerDad, piperinsider, Hawks88, Gray Fox, AF4, Mr. Ypsi, OxyBob, AO, Klopenhiemer, Knightstalker, chmarx, doolittledog, Ron Boerger, Ash Park, AUPepBand, szlongball, LCNorse, hugenerd, kmk72289, mhb8904 AKA Toby Taff, Barber Greene, BeaverOfYore, snoop dawg, superman57
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on August 27, 2008, 07:05:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2008, 08:13:43 PM
Quote from: hscoach on August 26, 2008, 06:59:56 PM
Only exception I have is the prediction that ONU will finish ahead of Capital. 

So you're cool with the part where I have Mount Union not going to the Stagg Bowl? :shock:

Personally, I think Mount is headed to Salem again this season, but I have no problem with the consensus around the nation saying they can't make it back due to all graduation losses. 

The key will be the O-line.  If they can put together a good line with 5 new guys, they'll be very, very good.  They don't need to be dominant up front, just good.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 27, 2008, 10:25:09 AM
Quote from: hscoach on August 27, 2008, 07:05:42 AM
The key will be the O-line.  If they can put together a good line with 5 new guys, they'll be very, very good.  They don't need to be dominant up front, just good.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 28, 2008, 01:26:22 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 27, 2008, 10:25:09 AM
Quote from: hscoach on August 27, 2008, 07:05:42 AM
The key will be the O-line.  If they can put together a good line with 5 new guys, they'll be very, very good.  They don't need to be dominant up front, just good.

Agreed.

Certainly I could envision Mount Union pulling out 5 O-Line starters and another 10 starters overall from the 211 non-returning-starters in camp, I'm just a huge believer in returning experience. Certainly there are cases where a team like Mount Union has guys not getting any burn who are better than starters for other teams.

It's not like seeing them in Salem would be a shock. This time, I decided I'd rather change my opinion midway through the year on something tangible, even though going with "historical performance" usually pays in Division III. Did the same thing last year with UW-W.

I also think this will be a tough year in the OAC, but we shall see. While watching the Purple Raiders be SO dominant last year was an experience, having some games possibly be in doubt this year could be fun from an outsider's perspective too.

I always thought O-Line was one of the more underrated parts of MUC teams, especially the last few. When a QB doesn't get touched, it's a lot easier to sit back and make the right decisions.

I thought Kmic would get smash the rushing record based on you guys finding some OL, and also Larry's tendency to play to his roster's strengths. And MUC's tendency to play 13 games minimum.

We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on August 28, 2008, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 28, 2008, 01:26:22 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 27, 2008, 10:25:09 AM
Quote from: hscoach on August 27, 2008, 07:05:42 AM
The key will be the O-line.  If they can put together a good line with 5 new guys, they'll be very, very good.  They don't need to be dominant up front, just good.

Agreed.


I also think this will be a tough year in the OAC, but we shall see. While watching the Purple Raiders be SO dominant last year was an experience, having some games possibly be in doubt this year could be fun from an outsider's perspective too.

I always thought O-Line was one of the more underrated parts of MUC teams, especially the last few. When a QB doesn't get touched, it's a lot easier to sit back and make the right decisions.

You're right on both accounts. 

Mount was really the only senior dominated team in the entire conference last year and the scores showed it.  Now everyone is very experienced and Mount is young.  Should make for a much more interesting regular season.

When Mount started winning on a national scale in the 1990's, they did so on the strength of great skill people and inspite of their weaknesses on the line of scrimmage.  The 92 and 93 battles against La Crosse and Rowan were complete mis-matches in the trenches.  Now they're winning consisently because of the line play.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 28, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
Another thing to keep in mind about MUC is that, with all the blowouts, their subs probably logged more PT than those of any other team.  Of course, much of it may have been against the OTHER team's subs, also, so maybe it doesn't amount to all that much more experience than JV play. ???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on August 28, 2008, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on August 28, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
Another thing to keep in mind about MUC is that, with all the blowouts, their subs probably logged more PT than those of any other team.  Of course, much of it may have been against the OTHER team's subs, also, so maybe it doesn't amount to all that much more experience than JV play. ???
Respectfully, I think that any reps by the subs in a varsity game are valuable.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 30, 2008, 08:15:08 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on August 28, 2008, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on August 28, 2008, 05:48:32 PM
Another thing to keep in mind about MUC is that, with all the blowouts, their subs probably logged more PT than those of any other team.  Of course, much of it may have been against the OTHER team's subs, also, so maybe it doesn't amount to all that much more experience than JV play. ???
Respectfully, I think that any reps by the subs in a varsity game are valuable.

And certainly that, coupled with the fact that MUC and UWW players could have had as many as 15 more games and weeks of practice than their counterparts over the past three years are factors worth considering even when a third of their lineups are first-time starters.

Probably why we all have them both in the top few teams in the country still.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 01, 2008, 11:27:44 PM
cc: from Players in the Pros

Quote from: reality check on September 01, 2008, 11:24:56 PM
It's not the pros but I just heard while watching the Tennessee/UCLA game that new Tennessee OC Dave Clawson is a Williams graduate who played football and basketball for them in his day.

Sooner or later, I'm going to start a board for this. For now, the ATN thread is the (il)logical home for famous D3 alums.

I have a new one too: Ravens owner Steve Biscotti = Salisbury.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 01, 2008, 11:45:33 PM
Jets D-Line Coach Dan Quinn is a Salisbury guy too. 1990-93 in his bio

If we start this list, either as a running repost here, or as its own thread, I'd like to have it tiered, maybe like:

- non-sports celebrities/politicians who went to D3 schools:
- Pro Players from D3
- Current coaches who were ex-D3 players
- Coaches who formerly worked in D3 (Keeler, Chris Meidt,

And you would have had to only attend to be counted, you didn't have to graduate.

Just some way to separate out that Danny Ragsdale becoming a GA at Stanford (http://gostanford.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ragsdale_danny00.html), while cool, is not on the same list as Belichick & Goodell. Or having spent a year as Middlebury's secondary coach or getting cut from the af2 franchise in Tupelo is not the same as a guy of SNL fame being having gone to Whitewater.

Back on pages 45, 46 and mostly on 47 (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=3800.msg722381#msg722381) we were having this discussion. Would be a good place to draw a new, more organized list from.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 01, 2008, 11:51:36 PM
The Democratic presidential nominee attended Occidental for two years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 04, 2008, 06:20:02 PM
Who? Never heard of him.

Thanks for the nice intro though. (blushes)

QuoteAround the Nation

Some games kick off tonight, some on Friday, and weather permitting, a whole bunch on Saturday. Although the path of Hanna has already prompted Christopher Newport to shut the school down for the weekend, there are still plenty of prime games to look forward to, and Keith McMillan has your September schedule all planned out in the season's first Around the Nation column.

If this is your first season following Division III, Keith is a former safety at Randolph-Macon who has worked at USA Today and currently is a copy editor at The Washington Post. He started writing our signature column in 2001 and has been across Division III in the years since, seeing the game played in stadiums all around the country. His weekly column is a must-read for any Division III fan.

This week, check out the big games coming up for Week 1, and plan ahead for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PBR... on September 05, 2008, 07:26:24 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 04, 2008, 06:20:02 PM
Who? Never heard of him.

Thanks for the nice intro though. (blushes)

QuoteAround the Nation

Some games kick off tonight, some on Friday, and weather permitting, a whole bunch on Saturday. Although the path of Hanna has already prompted Christopher Newport to shut the school down for the weekend, there are still plenty of prime games to look forward to, and Keith McMillan has your September schedule all planned out in the season's first Around the Nation column.

If this is your first season following Division III, Keith is a former safety at Randolph-Macon who has worked at USA Today and currently is a copy editor at The Washington Post. He started writing our signature column in 2001 and has been across Division III in the years since, seeing the game played in stadiums all around the country. His weekly column is a must-read for any Division III fan.

This week, check out the big games coming up for Week 1, and plan ahead for the rest of the season.


KMack...saw you lurkin and postin on the LLPP...initial thoughts would be the rpi vs. union game last one on the '86 field this year....usually thats the game alot of the LLPP is hangin' also maybe 'bart and rpi this year should be a very good game and a decent turnout for that as well...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 05, 2008, 11:17:57 AM
TGP would second the Hobart-RPI game.  Could be for the League title, AQ, etc.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 05, 2008, 10:21:44 PM
Got another suggestion for that one. Week 11 is always a tough sell, but I'll take a look at the suggested games and see if I can come up with a winner.

Meanwhile, found this classic thread (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2006/09/06/stagg-bowl-xxxiv-preview/) on the Dose, where we were coming up with funny (well, to us anyway) potential Stagg Bowl matchups.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 05, 2008, 10:57:07 PM
From the Otterbein story in What We're Reading:

Quote"I was starting to feel like a bum," said Rafferty, 22. "Just being a normal student was not fulfilling enough. . . . You talk to guys who are 25 and older, and they will tell you they would give . . . (anything) to play again. I knew I had to do something quickly."

That's exactly why I never considered going to a college where I wasn't going to be on the team. Just couldn't sit and watch ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 05, 2008, 11:30:17 PM
I think that's the beauty of D-3, that you can be involved. My involvement was radio, stats and PA, but at a big school I doubt if I could do that. Well, maybe if I displayed my uber sports geek early on...

Nah...I didn't want my lunch money stolen...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on September 06, 2008, 01:59:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 05, 2008, 10:21:44 PM
Got another suggestion for that one. Week 11 is always a tough sell, but I'll take a look at the suggested games and see if I can come up with a winner.

Meanwhile, found this classic thread (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2006/09/06/stagg-bowl-xxxiv-preview/) on the Dose, where we were coming up with funny (well, to us anyway) potential Stagg Bowl matchups.

Keith:
I third the rpi/union and hobart/rpi matchups... I'll meet you there if you do one of them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 09, 2008, 02:52:07 AM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on September 06, 2008, 01:59:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 05, 2008, 10:21:44 PM
Got another suggestion for that one. Week 11 is always a tough sell, but I'll take a look at the suggested games and see if I can come up with a winner.

Meanwhile, found this classic thread (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2006/09/06/stagg-bowl-xxxiv-preview/) on the Dose, where we were coming up with funny (well, to us anyway) potential Stagg Bowl matchups.

Keith:
I third the rpi/union and hobart/rpi matchups... I'll meet you there if you do one of them.

It is imperative that the posse come out en masse for this. It is really the only way the rest of the nation could get a taste of life in the LL. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 17, 2008, 03:12:52 AM
the weird stuff you find doing research for ATN articles.

Ohio Supreme Court: Kaczkowski vs. Ohio Northern Univ. (http://www.ohiosupremecourt.gov/rod/newpdf/3/2006/2006-ohio-2373.pdf)

and on the flip side, a feature in Buena Vista's alumni magazine by a faculty member and former ONU player who grew up in a rough part of Youngstown, was the first to graduate college in his family and cited Kaczkowski as an inspiration. (http://www2.bvu.edu/departments/instadvancement/advancement/publications/bvtoday/2004_winter/williams.asp)

Too random for 'What we're reading' but pretty interesting, to me at least.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 17, 2008, 10:08:45 PM
Some e-mail feedback from the first couple weeks. Pay attention to the last one because faithful ATN readers' opinions & suggestions are needed on this one:

Quote>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>>Subject: Re: D3 LaGrange College got their first win in their 3rd season and
it was quite impressive
>> From: "xxxxxxx" <xxxxxxx@comcast.net>
>> They joined the SLAC conference this year and are ranked 4th in the
>> conference. Take a look around and let us see some good info about this up and coming team.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Keith@D3football.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 10:40 PM

> Already talked to Coach Mooney and LaGrange is one of three teams featured
> in Thursday's Around the Nation column, so look for it!
>
> Keith McMillan
> National Columnist
> Keith@D3football.com

From: "xxxxxxx" <xxxxxxx@comcast.net>
Awesome!

I cannot thank you enough for responding.

QuoteSubject: Thank you for the Hiram article!!
Date:  Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:49:59 PM

My nephew plays for Hiram. I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write the article. I think you did a great job in capturing in words how those kids felt after the victory and how hard they worked for it. I can tell you are quite aware of the struggles that a school like Hiram has to overcome. They did get to ring that bell Saturday night...and well into Sunday morning  from what Ive been told!! Its very nice that those kids hard work gets recognized. Thanks again!

Quote-------------- Original message --------------
From: xxxxxxxxxxx <xxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com>
Keith,

I suggested this to the East ATR guy, but figured this could be just as useful. I've long felt that one of the biggest challenges to being a D-III fan is that we simply don't know how good some of these teams are. For example, as an Ithaca fan, seeing that King's beat Randolph-Macon 34-13, Hartwick beat W. New England 63-37, Cortland hung 51 on Morrisville State, and Springfield put up 55 on Fitchburg State made me go "Uh-oh" But once you do a little digging you see that Morrisville State is in their 3rd year, that Randolph-Macon might have been a one year wonder, that W. NE is a not great team that plays in a pretty bad conference to boot, which is pretty much how Fitchburg State is too. So maybe those scores aren't really that worrysome.

Have you guys ever thought about putting in a "Degree of difficulty" type thing when you discuss these games? You mention it from time to time in certain games, but I think it would help people's understanding as a whole to know why some losses aren't really big deals (SJF losing at Mt. Union) and why some wins aren't either (SJF beating Buff State at home 20-7)

I just think it might help people--especially people new to D-III--get a better understanding of the games, rankings, etc. Anyway, keep up the excellent work.

xxxxx,
Hello again. I see where you're going with this, and that's definitely Around the Nation's function, to try to make sense of national happenings for folks who only follow one team or one conference. But I'm not sure of a one-stop way, like a 1-5 star rating, to boil everything down so simply.

Part of the reason is because I think the perceived strength of teams can be a matter of opinion. We try to address that with the top 25 poll and conference ratings and even the NCAA's SOS index later in the season, and we try to discuss the significance of certain wins as much as possible in the column and podcast.

If you take it a step further, final scores aren't always what they seem either. Wabash, a top 10 team, beating Denison 41-27 would've been a little concerning, but it was really a 41-13 game with 10 minutes to go before two late scores. I know when I vote in the poll there's not always enough time to read 25 or 35 game stories before my ballot is due, but I do try to look at certain box scores to see if it was a tied or close game in the fourth quarter, a 2- or 3-score game, or a straight blowout.

So I agree with you about the need to more or less translate for people the meaning of these wins and losses, but I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for you other than yes, we have thought about it, and what we do now is sort of the best we've come up with. If it were something we were expected to do across the board each week for every game, we'd have to find a way to make it feasible with the manpower we have.

What I will do is loop Pat Coleman into this discussion and post it on the ATN thread on Post Patterns and see if anyone comes up with any ideas. At the least we can try to be responsive to you and more clear about those things when discussing.

Keith McMillan
National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2008, 10:25:57 PM
In the summer 2009 offseason, do we have enough scores to come up with a D3football.com index (similar to what we have for bornpowerindex and lazindex) for the 2009 season?  With the input of some good sports statisticians, you might have some confidence intervals that would give us an idea of when a real upset had occurred versus a better effort by slight underdog.

With permission, I have used KICKOFF in the ASC Pick'ems contest for the last 4 years with good success.  I think that y'all could do it.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 18, 2008, 10:10:43 AM
Have to pick a bone, Keith.  You said:

Quote from: K-mac's evin twin Skippy ;-)The Choctaws are surrendering 45.5 points per game, but the ASC schedule provides a path for an 0-2 team to make the playoffs.

The possibilties?  Least likely to most:
- Defeat both UMHB and improved HSU - on the road - and win the conference outright.   1%
- Win one, lose one, hope for the NCAA to give a 7-3 team (7-2 D3 play) a Pool C bid.   1-2%
- Defeat one, lose to one, hope for a three-way tie breaker and win it.  2%


Seems like a path frought with pitfalls to me.  And I thought that even before seeing the MC SID's post saying QB Shaffer is out for the season, honest.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2008, 01:04:09 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 18, 2008, 10:10:43 AM
Have to pick a bone, Keith.  You said:

Quote from: K-mac's evin twin Skippy ;-)The Choctaws are surrendering 45.5 points per game, but the ASC schedule provides a path for an 0-2 team to make the playoffs.

The possibilties?  Least likely to most:
- Defeat both UMHB and improved HSU - on the road - and win the conference outright.   1%
- Win one, lose one, hope for the NCAA to give a 7-3 team (7-2 D3 play) a Pool C bid.   1-2%
- Defeat one, lose to one, hope for a three-way tie breaker and win it.  2%

Seems like a path frought with pitfalls to me.  And I thought that even before seeing the MC SID's post saying QB Shaffer is out for the season, honest.  ;)

Didn't mean to suggest it was likely, only that the AQ gives every team in a conference hope, even if it's off to a less-than-good start (wins award for being diplomatic)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 21, 2008, 01:05:30 AM
So apparently the Hiram website took note of the school being featured in the first ATN, but the comments below were not so kind (http://news.hiram.edu/?p=664):
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 21, 2008, 11:36:40 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 21, 2008, 01:05:30 AM
So apparently the Hiram website took note of the school being featured in the first ATN, but the comments below were not so kind (http://news.hiram.edu/?p=664):

'Kate' probably posted at Hendrix saying how football was going to destroy that august institution ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 21, 2008, 11:47:52 PM
They've removed the comment that contained a word so bad that Carlin didn't even include it in his seven.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 22, 2008, 08:52:38 AM
Thanks for the podcast!

Great way to start the week!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ken Pickens on September 22, 2008, 08:19:09 PM
Guys, watch out for a third year program out LaGrange Georgia, LaGrange College!
This team is for real and after not winning a game in two years, they are ready to put their names in national contention this year or next year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 22, 2008, 10:04:25 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 21, 2008, 11:47:52 PM
They've removed the comment that contained a word so bad that Carlin didn't even include it in his seven.

I'm not sure if I should have brought attention to that, although I liked it when they brought attention to ATN bringing attention to them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 23, 2008, 07:17:05 AM
Quote from: Ken Pickens on September 22, 2008, 08:19:09 PM
Guys, watch out for a third year program out LaGrange Georgia, LaGrange College!
This team is for real and after not winning a game in two years, they are ready to put their names in national contention this year or next year.

Right.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 23, 2008, 10:18:08 AM
Quote from: hscoach on September 23, 2008, 07:17:05 AM
Quote from: Ken Pickens on September 22, 2008, 08:19:09 PM
Guys, watch out for a third year program out LaGrange Georgia, LaGrange College!
This team is for real and after not winning a game in two years, they are ready to put their names in national contention this year or next year.

Right.

Hey, beating a second-year program that didn't bring back most of its starters from last year IS impressive ... even if it was by all of three points.  :P

Look out Mount Union!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on September 23, 2008, 03:15:02 PM
Quote from: Ken Pickens on September 22, 2008, 08:19:09 PM
Guys, watch out for a third year program out LaGrange Georgia, LaGrange College!
This team is for real and after not winning a game in two years, they are ready to put their names in national contention this year or next year.

I'm reminded of a bar I used to frequent, where there was always a sign posted saying "free beer tomorrow."  :D

I don't remember much else about that bar.  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: matblake on September 25, 2008, 09:03:15 AM
Chartering a Little Brass Bus, I love it!  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 25, 2008, 11:52:19 AM
Agreed, I thought that was a great line. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 27, 2008, 10:18:28 AM
Biggest upset of the year? (Northwestern over River Falls) I agree that it's a big win for the program, but I'm not even sure we were underdogs going into the game.  On paper we had better offensive talent.  It probably was the biggest game on the schedule as the rest of the UMAC will probably not put up much more of a fight than they usually do.   At 9-1 with the lone loss coming in a close game against Simpson in the rain, I think the playoff hopes are high, but I haven't looked at whatever the other pool b contenders are doing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
Kickoff ranked Northwestern No. 157 (by far the highest in the UMAC) and UW-River Falls No. 83 (second-to-last in the WIAC).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 28, 2008, 01:13:05 AM
I officially forgive Kickoff for unfairly ranking Northwestern and the UMAC as a whole, as I understand there are 250 teams to evaluate.  Another prime example of East Coast Bias.  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 28, 2008, 01:25:04 AM
Quote from: AO on September 28, 2008, 01:13:05 AM
I officially forgive Kickoff for unfairly ranking Northwestern and the UMAC as a whole, as I understand there are 250 teams to evaluate.  Another prime example of East Coast Bias.  ;D
Naw, I think that it is a case of first season...prove to me what you have?

CSS is new.
Martin Luther, Crown and MN-Morris came out of the UMAC.

Northwestern is the best of this breed.  Even with a win over the Tommies, I think that the Simpson loss knocks you out of a Pool B bid because of a weak strength of schedule.   :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 29, 2008, 10:25:53 AM
what other pool b team scheduled a WIAC school?  The East Coast Bias i'm referring to was the wisconsin variety; it ought to pay off for us come playoff time.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 29, 2008, 01:03:57 PM
Quote from: AO on September 29, 2008, 10:25:53 AM
what other pool b team scheduled a WIAC school?  The East Coast Bias i'm referring to was the wisconsin variety; it ought to pay off for us come playoff time.
When the Handbook is released, I encourage you to "devour" it.

The "WIAC result" is considered in the information that the committee uses.  There is no consideration, or room for consideration, of "East Coast bias", altho' I thought that the E8 benefited in the selection of at-large teams over the NWC in 2007.  :)



Edit:  More precisely, I having trouble believing that the third team in the E8 was better than the first team in the NWC.  I just don't believe that there is enough statistical linking with a sample size of 9-10 games in a season and extreme "regional isolation" of the NWC/West Coast to make that leap.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 29, 2008, 02:15:36 PM
It stands to reason that my NWC would also get the short end of the stick.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 29, 2008, 03:45:38 PM
Agreed. Programs that perform get the long end of the stick.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 30, 2008, 03:15:23 AM
Quote from: AO on September 27, 2008, 10:18:28 AM
Biggest upset of the year? (Northwestern over River Falls) I agree that it's a big win for the program, but I'm not even sure we were underdogs going into the game.  On paper we had better offensive talent.  It probably was the biggest game on the schedule as the rest of the UMAC will probably not put up much more of a fight than they usually do.   At 9-1 with the lone loss coming in a close game against Simpson in the rain, I think the playoff hopes are high, but I haven't looked at whatever the other pool b contenders are doing.

Your entitled to your opinion of course, but I'd encourage you to look at the WIAC's non-conference results over time. Even bad WIAC teams often win their non-con games, and the UMAC and WIAC are (very fairly) at opposite ends of the spectrum. In mission, in level of talent/type of student-athletes attracted, in historical significance in the postseason, etc.

I thought it was very significant.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 30, 2008, 03:21:13 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 29, 2008, 01:03:57 PM
Quote from: AO on September 29, 2008, 10:25:53 AM
what other pool b team scheduled a WIAC school?  The East Coast Bias i'm referring to was the wisconsin variety; it ought to pay off for us come playoff time.
When the Handbook is released, I encourage you to "devour" it.

The "WIAC result" is considered in the information that the committee uses.  There is no consideration, or room for consideration, of "East Coast bias", altho' I thought that the E8 benefited in the selection of at-large teams over the NWC in 2007.  :)



Edit:  More precisely, I having trouble believing that the third team in the E8 was better than the first team in the NWC.  I just don't believe that there is enough statistical linking with a sample size of 9-10 games in a season and extreme "regional isolation" of the NWC/West Coast to make that leap.  :)

I thought we've dealt with the East Coast bias thing. Saying that in Division III is like saying Motor Trend is biased toward writing about cars.

As far the Empire 8, Ralph I agree the third team in most every league isn't better than the NWC's best, and no NWC teams was a certain stunner. Problem was the E8's third best team won the AQ, and that left teams that apparently stacked up better via the criteria than Whitworth.

Anyway, wasnt UWEC widely regarded as the team that bumped Whitworth? And was least deserving, until it won in the first round.

I remember interviewing (Dick ?, Defiance/committee chair) and he said the committee was rewarding teams from the better conferences that played tough schedules or something to that effect ... and it made sense in the cases of who got in but not who was out.

I think it was a fluke and luckily it will never happen again.

Otherwise though, I thought the committee largely "got it" last year and nailed it better than almost ever before.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 30, 2008, 08:41:59 AM
Thanks for the informative response.

That situation sets up the geographic isolation disadvantage.

The number of teams that are available to play to improve the OWP and OOWP in the mid-Atlantic states is incredible.  Because of the number of teams in the area, that permits greater separation in the OWP/OOWP.  (A good example of this is in the OWP/OOWP values that we see in the Men's UAA basketball values.  Because those 8 teams are in 5 Evaluation Regions and in all 4 Administrative Regions, and because they are so close to 85% of the teams in D-III as a conference, they can legitimately build great schedules with respect to OWP/OOWP.)

The West Coast teams struggle to find opponents to fill a 9-game schedule.  That geographic isolation even brings the OWP/OOWP back to .500, because it is virtually a "closed system".

Yes, I hope that it never happens again, but I don't know how to get around that fact.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 30, 2008, 11:36:49 AM
The East Coast Bias comment was a joke.  As a minnesotan I consider Wisconsin to be on the East Coast as we relate our geography according to the great lakes.   

I completely agree with Ralph about the scheduling difficulties.  There's definitely room to consider subjectively weighing the schedule of a team's big games as punishing a team for beating poor conference or non-conference opponents year after year doesn't make a ton of sense.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 30, 2008, 01:41:25 PM
Quote from: AO on September 30, 2008, 11:36:49 AM
The East Coast Bias comment was a joke.  As a Minnesotan I consider Wisconsin to be on the East Coast as we relate our geography according to the great lakes.   

I completely agree with Ralph about the scheduling difficulties.  There's definitely room to consider subjectively weighing the schedule of a team's big games as punishing a team for beating poor conference or non-conference opponents year after year doesn't make a ton of sense.
Fortunately or not, that subjectivity that we would like to interject into the process is hard to define and may not be sufficiently quantifiable to include in the selection criteria.

Most accurately, I firmly believed that the NWC champion, Whitworth, was among the best 10 at-large teams (3 Pool B + 7 Pool C) that were on the table before the national selection committee.   :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on September 30, 2008, 01:59:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 30, 2008, 03:21:13 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 29, 2008, 01:03:57 PM
Quote from: AO on September 29, 2008, 10:25:53 AM
what other pool b team scheduled a WIAC school?  The East Coast Bias i'm referring to was the wisconsin variety; it ought to pay off for us come playoff time.
When the Handbook is released, I encourage you to "devour" it.

The "WIAC result" is considered in the information that the committee uses.  There is no consideration, or room for consideration, of "East Coast bias", altho' I thought that the E8 benefited in the selection of at-large teams over the NWC in 2007.  :)



Edit:  More precisely, I having trouble believing that the third team in the E8 was better than the first team in the NWC.  I just don't believe that there is enough statistical linking with a sample size of 9-10 games in a season and extreme "regional isolation" of the NWC/West Coast to make that leap.  :)

I thought we've dealt with the East Coast bias thing. Saying that in Division III is like saying Motor Trend is biased toward writing about cars.

As far the Empire 8, Ralph I agree the third team in most every league isn't better than the NWC's best, and no NWC teams was a certain stunner. Problem was the E8's third best team won the AQ, and that left teams that apparently stacked up better via the criteria than Whitworth.

Anyway, wasnt UWEC widely regarded as the team that bumped Whitworth? And was least deserving, until it won in the first round.

I remember interviewing (Dick ?, Defiance/committee chair) and he said the committee was rewarding teams from the better conferences that played tough schedules or something to that effect ... and it made sense in the cases of who got in but not who was out.

I think it was a fluke and luckily it will never happen again.

Otherwise though, I thought the committee largely "got it" last year and nailed it better than almost ever before.

A couple of things do not make sense to me K-Mack.  The third best team won the AQ is a subjective statement is it not.  I am not familiar with how the E8's AQ was or is won.  If it comes down to a tie breaker or some such it was still settled on the field.  So the AQ was won by the best E8 team or that they tied the best. 


Now the statement that UWEC kept them out as I understand this can not really be a true statement since there were other Pool B teams that kept them out did they not.  Now if you are saying that Pool B was cut and dried and the NWC didn't deserve a Pool B bid then the E8's two pool C bids could have kept the NWC out. 

Since I have heard you and Pat state that the 32 best teams are supposed to get in.  Then all the Pool C bids kept the NWC out did they not?

Not trying to pick on you just learn what you are thinking and trying to clear this up in my mind. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 30, 2008, 02:02:57 PM
But remember that the conference schedule is only (in this case) six out of 10 games. So there is a significant track record in non-conference action to base that assessment on.

Hartwick had the worst standing among the three Empire 8 teams, at 7-3 overall, in terms of the playoff selection criteria.

Eau Claire was the lowest-seeded at-large in the West and is widely regarded as the team that got in ahead of Whitworth. Whitworth was ahead of Eau Claire in the final published regional rankings and both teams won their regular-season finale.

http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/11/07/third-regional-rankings/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on September 30, 2008, 08:42:06 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 30, 2008, 02:02:57 PM
But remember that the conference schedule is only (in this case) six out of 10 games. So there is a significant track record in non-conference action to base that assessment on.

Hartwick had the worst standing among the three Empire 8 teams, at 7-3 overall, in terms of the playoff selection criteria.

Eau Claire was the lowest-seeded at-large in the West and is widely regarded as the team that got in ahead of Whitworth. Whitworth was ahead of Eau Claire in the final published regional rankings and both teams won their regular-season finale.

http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/11/07/third-regional-rankings/

This does not address the fact that the NCAA states the 32 best teams are chosen, correct?  So they, with their choices said that the two non AQ E8 teams were better than the NWC champ.  If I have followed you guys correctly. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 30, 2008, 08:58:40 PM
The NCAA never states that the 32 best teams will be selected.  That would violate the equal access provision (i.e., pools A and B).  And for pool C they have guidelines that 'strive' for best, but any long-time watcher will realize do not always achieve it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 01, 2008, 12:06:03 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on September 30, 2008, 08:58:40 PM
The NCAA never states that the 32 best teams will be selected.  That would violate the equal access provision (i.e., pools A and B).  And for pool C they have guidelines that 'strive' for best, but any long-time watcher will realize do not always achieve it.
And, (I think that Mr. Ypsi will agree) that each sport has peculiar quirks when it comes to Pool C's.

Men's Hoops is one sport.

Football is another.

Baseball is another...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 02, 2008, 09:05:04 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on September 30, 2008, 08:58:40 PM
The NCAA never states that the 32 best teams will be selected.  That would violate the equal access provision (i.e., pools A and B).  And for pool C they have guidelines that 'strive' for best, but any long-time watcher will realize do not always achieve it.

That's funny, I have come to the realization over the years and have said either in print or on-air or both that it's not necessarily about the 32 "best," but for fair access. In other words, every participating team in the nation has a path to the national championship, via the playoff structure, and understands to some degree what it must do to get there.

Before you say you'd rather have the 32 best instead of fair access, go back to the 16-team system, when more than four teams could go unbeaten in a region and only four could get in. The way the four were selected was subjective, for the most part, and the fifth and sixth had no recourse.

Under the AQ system, those teams are in via their automatic bids (and granted there are more spots so there are more happy teams)

If we honestly created a 32 best scenario, wouldn't we take four OAC teams and no MIAA teams each year, or something like that? What then of a conference that hasn't had playoff success but has a special team capable of going far?

I think the AQ system strikes a balance between open access for everyone, which helps because even who we "think" is strongest is not always who wins ... and it keeps subjectivity to a limit, although some might inevitably seep in no matter how much criteria is laid out.

I know there are other remarks to respond to, just only had time for one now. Will get back to the others :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 02, 2008, 10:29:28 PM
Quote from: K-Mack's ATN Column, quoted on October 02, 2008, 09:05:04 PM

Hartwick (1-1, 0-1 E8) at No. 10 St. John Fisher (3-1, 1-0): This clash looked a lot better before the Cardinals' convincing win last weekend against Ithaca, which beat Hartwick 69-42. There is hope for a good game, as the Hawks are the national leaders in scoring offense at 52.5 points per, and might be able to hang with St. John Fisher on that alone.


I imagine that Hartwick is among the leaders in points allowed, at 53 points per.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 02, 2008, 11:52:40 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 02, 2008, 09:05:04 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on September 30, 2008, 08:58:40 PM
The NCAA never states that the 32 best teams will be selected.  That would violate the equal access provision (i.e., pools A and B).  And for pool C they have guidelines that 'strive' for best, but any long-time watcher will realize do not always achieve it.

That's funny, I have come to the realization over the years and have said either in print or on-air or both that it's not necessarily about the 32 "best," but for fair access. In other words, every participating team in the nation has a path to the national championship, via the playoff structure, and understands to some degree what it must do to get there.

Before you say you'd rather have the 32 best instead of fair access, go back to the 16-team system, when more than four teams could go unbeaten in a region and only four could get in. The way the four were selected was subjective, for the most part, and the fifth and sixth had no recourse.

Under the AQ system, those teams are in via their automatic bids (and granted there are more spots so there are more happy teams)

If we honestly created a 32 best scenario, wouldn't we take four OAC teams and no MIAA teams each year, or something like that? What then of a conference that hasn't had playoff success but has a special team capable of going far?

I think the AQ system strikes a balance between open access for everyone, which helps because even who we "think" is strongest is not always who wins ... and it keeps subjectivity to a limit, although some might inevitably seep in no matter how much criteria is laid out.

I know there are other remarks to respond to, just only had time for one now. Will get back to the others :)

Just for the record, Keith, that was exactly my point!  We are not in disagreement.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2008, 02:09:39 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 02, 2008, 11:52:40 PM
Just for the record, Keith, that was exactly my point!  We are not in disagreement.

That was my understanding too, just fleshing it out some. Sorry if I made it seem like so.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2008, 02:10:12 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 02, 2008, 10:29:28 PM
Quote from: K-Mack's ATN Column, quoted on October 02, 2008, 09:05:04 PM

Hartwick (1-1, 0-1 E8) at No. 10 St. John Fisher (3-1, 1-0): This clash looked a lot better before the Cardinals' convincing win last weekend against Ithaca, which beat Hartwick 69-42. There is hope for a good game, as the Hawks are the national leaders in scoring offense at 52.5 points per, and might be able to hang with St. John Fisher on that alone.


I imagine that Hartwick is among the leaders in points allowed, at 53 points per.

Ah yes, a classic case of only half the story told.  :-[
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 07:46:16 PM
Handbook is out (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/3_football_handbook.pdf)!

Pool B gets 2 bids this year!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 03, 2008, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 07:46:16 PM
Handbook is out (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/3_football_handbook.pdf)!

Pool B gets 2 bids this year!

Man, that's good reading for a d3football geek.

Question 1: What are the global implications of 2 out of 9 available bids reserved for Pool B?  Show your work and use examples.  (I can see two different potential sources of anxiety, I'll expound later.)

Question 2: Mid-season regional rankings list ten ranked teams per region, right?

Question 3: Results v. Regionally Ranked Opponents is a primary selection criterion.  However, "[r]anked opponents are defined as those teams ranked at the time of the rankings/selection process only."   This seems to me to have two big effects:

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 03, 2008, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 07:46:16 PM
Handbook is out (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/3_football_handbook.pdf)!

Pool B gets 2 bids this year!

Man, that's good reading for a d3football geek.

Question 1: What are the global implications of 2 out of 9 available bids reserved for Pool B?  Show your work and use examples.  (I can see two different potential sources of anxiety, I'll expound later.)
...
I have looked at the numbers for the Pool B bids, and I cannot calculate how they got there!

There are 23 conferences with 199  197 participating members.  That gives an access ratio of 1:8.30  1:8.21.

There are 27 Pool B teams.  That should give 3 Pool B bids, if we use the usual calculations that are in the other Handbooks.


Errata--

My review shows only 50 West Region teams, and not 52!  I count 51 North Region teams, 48 South Region teams and 48 East Region teams.

The reason this is not 239 teams is that there are provisionals in the SCAC (B'ham Southern), the NJAC (SUNY-Morrisville) and the Pres AC, (Geneva and St Vincent), and the 10-team NESCAC does not compete for the title.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 03, 2008, 09:04:50 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 03, 2008, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 07:46:16 PM
Handbook is out (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/3_football_handbook.pdf)!

Pool B gets 2 bids this year!

Man, that's good reading for a d3football geek.

Question 1: What are the global implications of 2 out of 9 available bids reserved for Pool B?  Show your work and use examples.  (I can see two different potential sources of anxiety, I'll expound later.)
...
I have looked at the numbers for the Pool B bids, and I cannot calculate how they got there!

There are 23 conferences with 199 participating members.  That gives an access ratio of 1:8.30.

There are 27 Pool B teams.  That should give 3 Pool B bids, if we use the usual calculations that are in the other Handbooks.

Well, what happens if we use the calculation that's in the DIII handbook?


So, 27 divided by 8.3* = 3 (truncated).

By golly, you're right!

* My calculation produces a 1:8.65 ratio, but the truncated outcome is the same.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2008, 09:12:04 PM
I cannot figure out how they got to 2 bids.   ???

I have not seen a bid calculation method that has been used in any other Handbook that can give 2 bids.

I think that they got it wrong by anything other than fiat.


I can get it to 2 Pool B bids by doing it this way.

23 participating Pool A conferences that have 197 eligible teams that compete in the playoffs, plus 10 more teams that compete in a Pool A eligible conference (the NESCAC) equals 207 teams that comprise Pool A.

23 conferences divided into 207 teams will give an access ratio of 1:9.00.
If Neb Wesleyan has declared for the NAIA playoffs, that gives only 26 Pool B teams.

26 divided by 9 = 2.89 which truncates to 2 bids.

I don't know!  I give up.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 03, 2008, 09:24:57 PM
Moving to Pool B board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 04, 2008, 11:39:39 PM
Keith and Pat,

Nice work on the conference rankings. Its always a favorite and promotes good discussions. I would like to see perhaps a regional ranking analysis? N,E,W,S. That would make for some good discussions/debates. Plus it would allow us North people to us MUC's success as and advantage instead of an obstacle every year!  ;D

A few years ago the West was stacked with 4 of the top 10. On the boards you would see discussions of how the west was robbed by the seedings, they should move west teams to other regions, etc. we have had our share of this discussion in the North in years past and now this year you see several North teams in the top 10. The South has had some great teams too. All this to say it would be interesting to hear the gurus wax poetic on the various strengths of the regions.

just a thought.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: voice on October 05, 2008, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: usee on October 04, 2008, 11:39:39 PM
Keith and Pat,

Nice work on the conference rankings. Its always a favorite and promotes good discussions. I would like to see perhaps a regional ranking analysis? N,E,W,S. That would make for some good discussions/debates. Plus it would allow us North people to us MUC's success as and advantage instead of an obstacle every year!  ;D

A few years ago the West was stacked with 4 of the top 10. On the boards you would see discussions of how the west was robbed by the seedings, they should move west teams to other regions, etc. we have had our share of this discussion in the North in years past and now this year you see several North teams in the top 10. The South has had some great teams too. All this to say it would be interesting to hear the gurus wax poetic on the various strengths of the regions.

just a thought.

Isn't that what the NCAA did last year, moving UWW to the North and MUC to the East?

By the way, do not consider me a D3 guru - not even close!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 02:21:18 PM
Quote from: voice on October 05, 2008, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: usee on October 04, 2008, 11:39:39 PM
Keith and Pat,

Nice work on the conference rankings. Its always a favorite and promotes good discussions. I would like to see perhaps a regional ranking analysis? N,E,W,S. That would make for some good discussions/debates. Plus it would allow us North people to us MUC's success as and advantage instead of an obstacle every year!  ;D

A few years ago the West was stacked with 4 of the top 10. On the boards you would see discussions of how the west was robbed by the seedings, they should move west teams to other regions, etc. we have had our share of this discussion in the North in years past and now this year you see several North teams in the top 10. The South has had some great teams too. All this to say it would be interesting to hear the gurus wax poetic on the various strengths of the regions.

just a thought.

Isn't that what the NCAA did last year, moving UWW to the North and MUC to the East?

By the way, do not consider me a D3 guru - not even close!!

+1!   :)   Great comment!

Yes, the committee tried to move the best four team that they could find to the tops of their own brackets.

I will not impugn the coaches/AD's/Committee members that convene on this stuff.  They try to do the best that they can.

Usually my beef is the full-time NCAA support staff that is responsible for the background material.  We amateurs, we fans, should not be finding egregious errors in the Handbook and in the Selection processes as we have occasionally found.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 05, 2008, 02:58:00 PM
Quote from: voice on October 05, 2008, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: usee on October 04, 2008, 11:39:39 PM
Keith and Pat,

Nice work on the conference rankings. Its always a favorite and promotes good discussions. I would like to see perhaps a regional ranking analysis? N,E,W,S. That would make for some good discussions/debates. Plus it would allow us North people to us MUC's success as and advantage instead of an obstacle every year!  ;D

A few years ago the West was stacked with 4 of the top 10. On the boards you would see discussions of how the west was robbed by the seedings, they should move west teams to other regions, etc. we have had our share of this discussion in the North in years past and now this year you see several North teams in the top 10. The South has had some great teams too. All this to say it would be interesting to hear the gurus wax poetic on the various strengths of the regions.

just a thought.

Isn't that what the NCAA did last year, moving UWW to the North and MUC to the East?

By the way, do not consider me a D3 guru - not even close!!

No that's not what they did. They told us who they thought the TOP teams were but they didnt' tell us anything about the top REGIONS. I am merely suggesting a conversation about the strength of Regions the same way we look at conferences on a relative basis, i.e. top to bottom. I think it would be an interesting discussion semi regularly similarly to the conference ranking discussions.

And you are only an alleged "guru" if your screen name says so.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 03:23:54 PM
Quote from: usee on October 05, 2008, 02:58:00 PM
Quote from: voice on October 05, 2008, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: usee on October 04, 2008, 11:39:39 PM
Keith and Pat,

Nice work on the conference rankings. Its always a favorite and promotes good discussions. I would like to see perhaps a regional ranking analysis? N,E,W,S. That would make for some good discussions/debates. Plus it would allow us North people to us MUC's success as and advantage instead of an obstacle every year!  ;D

A few years ago the West was stacked with 4 of the top 10. On the boards you would see discussions of how the west was robbed by the seedings, they should move west teams to other regions, etc. we have had our share of this discussion in the North in years past and now this year you see several North teams in the top 10. The South has had some great teams too. All this to say it would be interesting to hear the gurus wax poetic on the various strengths of the regions.

just a thought.

Isn't that what the NCAA did last year, moving UWW to the North and MUC to the East?




No that's not what they did. They told us who they thought the TOP teams were but they didnt' tell us anything about the top REGIONS. I am merely suggesting a conversation about the strength of Regions the same way we look at conferences on a relative basis, i.e. top to bottom. I think it would be an interesting discussion semi regularly similarly to the conference ranking discussions.

And you are only an alleged "guru" if your screen name says so.  ;)

Daily Dose D3Keith at the 12:51 pm post (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2007/11/11/reactions-to-the-32-team-playoff-bracket/)


Yes.
QuoteJust talked to Pat. He said that he spoke to prominent members of the committee and a couple of points they emphasized (I believe this is stuff you might have already heard if you watched the show on the U):

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 05, 2008, 08:20:36 PM
Ralph,

Sorry, I am not sure I understand your point. Forgive me if I misread this but I still don't see how you have responded to my point. I have previously read the daily dose postings from last year and am aware of the conversations between Pat and the committee members. I don't get how what they did last year with the top four seeds addresses a conversation about how the regions stack up top to bottom. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 08:34:43 PM
Quote from: usee on October 05, 2008, 08:20:36 PM
Ralph,

Sorry, I am not sure I understand your point. Forgive me if I misread this but I still don't see how you have responded to my point. I have previously read the daily dose postings from last year and am aware of the conversations between Pat and the committee members. I don't get how what they did last year with the top four seeds addresses a conversation about how the regions stack up top to bottom. Am I missing something?
My bad! 

I would like for them to answer the same questions.

Thanks!   :)

My guess this year...

North -- MUC, CCIW
South -- ASC, SCAC, Muhlenberg
West -- WIAC and then up for grabs as perennial powers are toppling
East -- SJF is down a bit.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 05, 2008, 09:16:44 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 08:34:43 PM
Quote from: usee on October 05, 2008, 08:20:36 PM
Ralph,

Sorry, I am not sure I understand your point. Forgive me if I misread this but I still don't see how you have responded to my point. I have previously read the daily dose postings from last year and am aware of the conversations between Pat and the committee members. I don't get how what they did last year with the top four seeds addresses a conversation about how the regions stack up top to bottom. Am I missing something?
My bad! 

I would like for them to answer the same questions.

Thanks!   :)

My guess this year...

North -- MUC, CCIW
South -- ASC, SCAC, Muhlenberg
West -- WIAC and then up for grabs as perennial powers are toppling
East -- SJF is down a bit.

Thanks for the clarification.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 09:20:31 PM
Quote from: usee on October 05, 2008, 09:16:44 PM
...

Thanks for the clarification.  :)
What about you?  Any thoughts, especially about the CCIW?  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 05, 2008, 09:27:32 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 08:34:43 PM
Quote from: usee on October 05, 2008, 08:20:36 PM
Ralph,

Sorry, I am not sure I understand your point. Forgive me if I misread this but I still don't see how you have responded to my point. I have previously read the daily dose postings from last year and am aware of the conversations between Pat and the committee members. I don't get how what they did last year with the top four seeds addresses a conversation about how the regions stack up top to bottom. Am I missing something?
My bad! 

 

I would like for them to answer the same questions.

Thanks!   :)

My guess this year...

North -- MUC, CCIW
South -- ASC, SCAC, Muhlenberg
West -- WIAC and then up for grabs as perennial powers are toppling
East -- SJF is down a bit.


Ralph

  Does the way you have the south set for the top three make a first round game a one vs two because of the Texas bracket or can one of those conferences get a C bid which would put that team behind at least Muhlenburg which would possibly make it a two vs the C bid team?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 09:44:47 PM
No particular order in the South yet.

I also wonder which teams they may move to the East!

I think that Muhlenberg is on a roll.  Going 10-0 in that part of the country allows them to build a better OOWP than Texas.  It's an isolation thing.  :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 05, 2008, 09:57:44 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 09:44:47 PM
No particular order in the South yet.

I also wonder which teams they may move to the East!

I think that Muhlenberg is on a roll.  Going 10-0 in that part of the country allows them to build a better OOWP than Texas.  It's an isolation thing.  :-\

Ah to be on an island! :) Wesley now embarks on there non DIII schedule.  >:(
If something doesn't happen soon with a couple of things Wesley and Salisbury may not have any DIII opponents to play. Frostburg doesn't seem to want to play more than nine games and they caused the league championship to be pushed back at the leagues inception because they wouldn't change  their schedule. No love lost their ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 05, 2008, 10:29:30 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2008, 09:20:31 PM
Quote from: usee on October 05, 2008, 09:16:44 PM
...

Thanks for the clarification.  :)
What about you?  Any thoughts, especially about the CCIW?  :)

I think any discussion of the North past MUC has to include Capital. They have proven head to head to be better than the CCIW rep 2x in the past 3 yrs. I do think the CCIW has stepped up its quality of players, in particular the school from Naperville.  It remains to be seen if that translates into quality of play come playoff time. Until a CCIW team makes it to a regional final I don't think we will know.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2008, 11:45:26 PM
To answer your question usee, more often than not we would've ranked the regions (just guessing off top here)

West
North
South
East

On the heels of last season and at least a third of the way through this one, that ranking would probably not be the same. It might even be:

North
South
West
East

Whaddya think? I can justify it, but I'm between things here at work.

Quickly ... Beyond MUC, you have Capital, North Central and Wheaton in the top 10. Wabash. Case hasn't beaten anyone great, but they're consistent.

South has UMHB, Millsaps, Muhlenberg, Wesley & Salisbury and HSU so far, among others. W&J and Trinity too ... all capable of playoff wins at least.

West and East really not home to too many dominant teams so far.

UWW and UWEC, and then Redlands really out west.

East ... the Empire 8 is jumbled, the MAC is tight but without a dominant team. LL too. We'll learn more about the NJAC this week. NEFC is what it is.

It can change week to week, but that's about where we are no? Who am I forgetting?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 06, 2008, 11:32:03 AM
Good thoughts Kmack. I guess it depends on how deep into the conferences you go to examine the regions. If you go too deep you'll run into the massive numbers of schools in the East region which will skew any analysis. If you look at just the top 3-5 teams in each region you may not get sufficient depth to get a feel for relative strength either.

I am NOT a data guy but here's an analysis I did FWIW: I looked at the D3 rankings and split it 2 ways. the first way is to take the number of schools ranked in the top 25 divided by their ranking to get an average regional rank. I came up with the following

Top 25:

West: 4 teams ranked with an average ranking of 12.24
North: 9 teams ranked with an average ranking of 12.4
South: 9 teams ranked with an average ranking of 13.0
East: 3 teams ranked with an average ranking of 15.6

If you expand this to the TOP 40 of the D3 poll the results are slightly different:

West: 9 teams ranked with average of  25.1
North: 12 teams ranked with average of 17.3
South: 10 teams ranked with average of 15.4
East: 9 teams ranked with average of 25.7

The top 40 is a larger sample and seems more indicative of your "best guess" results. Of course there may be countless teams interchangeable with the bottom 10 which would skew the data pretty significantly. I think the number of teams ranked in the top 25 this year from the North and the South is significant with the average ranking in that analysis slightly more compact. The TOP 40 analysis gives you a better sample of teams and widens out the average ranking.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 06, 2008, 12:38:12 PM
Another analysis I did, FWIW, is to look at the validity of the TOP 10 in the D3 poll. I looked at teams ranked in the TOP 10 of the D3 poll after week 1 of the poll (2003 through 2007). I looked to see where these teams were ranked after week 16 (which takes into account playoff performance) and how many of them ended up in the playoffs. Here is what I found:

2003:
6 out of 10 still ranked in TOP 10 week 16
8 out of 10 made playoffs

2004:
3 out of 10 still ranked in TOP 10 in week 16
5 out of 10 made playoffs

2005:
6 out of 10 still ranked in TOP 10 in week 16
8 out of 10 made playoffs

2006:
6 out of 10 still ranked in TOP 10 in week 16
9 out of 10 made playoffs

2007:
7 out of 10 still ranked in TOP 10 in week 16
7 out of 10 made playoffs
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 06, 2008, 01:43:05 PM
I got a plaintive cry from usee to come to this board, since I'm a retired statistician! :D

As far as the 'validity' of the polls, with the possible exception of 2004, clearly they do a very good job (though the poll 1 to poll 16 comparison is more 'reliability' than 'validity').  Since week 1 is still largely guesswork, a comparison of week 4 or 5 to 16 might be a better test.

As to the regional comparisons, I noted one computation error (not that I've pulled the original data!): the South averages for top 25 OR top 40 cannot be correct, since that added team in the South was, by definition, somewhere beyond 25, so the top 40 average has to be larger than the top 25 average.

The data presented gives a pretty compelling case that Keith got the order right.  Note a potential problem with the averages, however: the more teams ranked in a region, almost inevitably the higher the average will be.  A cleaner comparison of the averages might be to use only the 6 (or 8 or whatever) highest ranked teams in each region - without having computed the actual numbers, I strongly suspect this would give a very clear ranking (almost certainly the same ranking that Keith gave).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on October 06, 2008, 02:05:35 PM
can anyone tell me when the NCAA comes out with their initial regional rankings?

thx!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 06, 2008, 02:23:19 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 06, 2008, 01:43:05 PM
As to the regional comparisons, I noted one computation error (not that I've pulled the original data!): the South averages for top 25 OR top 40 cannot be correct, since that added team in the South was, by definition, somewhere beyond 25, so the top 40 average has to be larger than the top 25 average.


Ypsi,

Thanks. It wasn't a computational error, it was an operator error. I fat fingered the data entry. fixed it. thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 06, 2008, 02:27:38 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 06, 2008, 01:43:05 PM

The data presented gives a pretty compelling case that Keith got the order right.  Note a potential problem with the averages, however: the more teams ranked in a region, almost inevitably the higher the average will be.  A cleaner comparison of the averages might be to use only the 6 (or 8 or whatever) highest ranked teams in each region - without having computed the actual numbers, I strongly suspect this would give a very clear ranking (almost certainly the same ranking that Keith gave).

I used the top 6 teams from each region (20 out of 24 are in the top 25). And came up with an average rank of:

North: 7
South: 9.5
West: 19.3
East: 21.7

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 06, 2008, 04:36:23 PM
Quote from: TGP on October 06, 2008, 02:05:35 PM
can anyone tell me when the NCAA comes out with their initial regional rankings?

thx!

Based on past years it's probably on October 22nd.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 06, 2008, 04:49:16 PM
Actually, should be the 29th. We get to see three rankings and they have a fourth secret one on Selection Sunday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 06, 2008, 05:25:18 PM
Pat,

I thought last year they released them on the 24th, 31st and 7th with the 4th on selection Sunday. I am sure you are right but those dates from last year was what I based my original post from. Thanks for the clarification.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 06, 2008, 09:25:01 PM
Yes, the season is six days later this year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 09:42:15 PM
Very interesting all around. Surprised my "guess" held up so well under the, uh, statistical spotlight.

So I was reading an article by John Feinstein (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100601791_Comments.html) which co-opted a lot of the rhetoric we use to describe D3 when talking about big networks missing out on football being played by class kids, etc.

I wrote this response:

QuoteI could get with the gist of this article a lot more if it wasn't painted as big guys vs. little guys. Because that's simply a matter of perspective.

It's true the big networks are missing some great college football, wonderful traditions and the like. But aren't the people at Navy just as clueless about The Citadel and VMI, and those guys just as clueless about the Coast Guard-Merchant Marine rivalry?

Those guys would kill to get a sliver of the attention the worst Army-Air Force-Navy game gets, so when you talk about small-college football and guys playing for the love of the game, remember that depending on your perspective, those guys are just as much the big spoiled brats as they are the overlooked good kids who deserve more attention.

Appropriate or am I just being a pee-pee head?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 07, 2008, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 09:42:15 PM
Very interesting all around. Surprised my "guess" held up so well under the, uh, statistical spotlight.

So I was reading an article by John Feinstein (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100601791_Comments.html) which co-opted a lot of the rhetoric we use to describe D3 when talking about big networks missing out on football being played by class kids, etc.

I wrote this response:

QuoteI could get with the gist of this article a lot more if it wasn't painted as big guys vs. little guys. Because that's simply a matter of perspective.

It's true the big networks are missing some great college football, wonderful traditions and the like. But aren't the people at Navy just as clueless about The Citadel and VMI, and those guys just as clueless about the Coast Guard-Merchant Marine rivalry?

Those guys would kill to get a sliver of the attention the worst Army-Air Force-Navy game gets, so when you talk about small-college football and guys playing for the love of the game, remember that depending on your perspective, those guys are just as much the big spoiled brats as they are the overlooked good kids who deserve more attention.

Appropriate or am I just being a pee-pee head?

Doo-Doo head maybe but not pee-pee head.
;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 10:06:49 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 07, 2008, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 09:42:15 PM
Very interesting all around. Surprised my "guess" held up so well under the, uh, statistical spotlight.

So I was reading an article by John Feinstein (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100601791_Comments.html) which co-opted a lot of the rhetoric we use to describe D3 when talking about big networks missing out on football being played by class kids, etc.

I wrote this response:

QuoteI could get with the gist of this article a lot more if it wasn't painted as big guys vs. little guys. Because that's simply a matter of perspective.

It's true the big networks are missing some great college football, wonderful traditions and the like. But aren't the people at Navy just as clueless about The Citadel and VMI, and those guys just as clueless about the Coast Guard-Merchant Marine rivalry?

Those guys would kill to get a sliver of the attention the worst Army-Air Force-Navy game gets, so when you talk about small-college football and guys playing for the love of the game, remember that depending on your perspective, those guys are just as much the big spoiled brats as they are the overlooked good kids who deserve more attention.

Appropriate or am I just being a pee-pee head?

Doo-Doo head maybe but not pee-pee head.
;D

Yeah dude, I have toddlers. Gotta keep it PG.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2008, 10:17:31 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 10:06:49 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 07, 2008, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 09:42:15 PM
Very interesting all around. Surprised my "guess" held up so well under the, uh, statistical spotlight.

So I was reading an article by John Feinstein (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100601791_Comments.html) which co-opted a lot of the rhetoric we use to describe D3 when talking about big networks missing out on football being played by class kids, etc.

I wrote this response:

QuoteI could get with the gist of this article a lot more if it wasn't painted as big guys vs. little guys. Because that's simply a matter of perspective.

It's true the big networks are missing some great college football, wonderful traditions and the like. But aren't the people at Navy just as clueless about The Citadel and VMI, and those guys just as clueless about the Coast Guard-Merchant Marine rivalry?

Those guys would kill to get a sliver of the attention the worst Army-Air Force-Navy game gets, so when you talk about small-college football and guys playing for the love of the game, remember that depending on your perspective, those guys are just as much the big spoiled brats as they are the overlooked good kids who deserve more attention.

Appropriate or am I just being a pee-pee head?

Doo-Doo head maybe but not pee-pee head.
;D

Yeah dude, I have toddlers. Gotta keep it PG.
Do they know German yet?  :D

One of my best "squelched laughs" was when I was reading Catch-22 by Joseph Heller in high school senior English while I should have been listening to my teacher talk about Bede or Beowulf or something like that.

I turned the page, and the next section of the novel was about Lieutenant Scheisskopf!    ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 07, 2008, 10:21:02 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 09:42:15 PM
So I was reading an article by John Feinstein (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100601791_Comments.html) which co-opted a lot of the rhetoric we use to describe D3 when talking about big networks missing out on football being played by class kids, etc.

I wrote this response:

QuoteI could get with the gist of this article a lot more if it wasn't painted as big guys vs. little guys. Because that's simply a matter of perspective.

It's true the big networks are missing some great college football, wonderful traditions and the like. But aren't the people at Navy just as clueless about The Citadel and VMI, and those guys just as clueless about the Coast Guard-Merchant Marine rivalry?

Those guys would kill to get a sliver of the attention the worst Army-Air Force-Navy game gets, so when you talk about small-college football and guys playing for the love of the game, remember that depending on your perspective, those guys are just as much the big spoiled brats as they are the overlooked good kids who deserve more attention.

Appropriate or am I just being a pee-pee head?

Good God Mack, if you start a "John 'Junior' Feinstein, the Czar of Sports" Board, I might never get any sleep!   :D

I don't think you were off-base at all.  John Feinstein is the most thoughtful and most prolific sportswriter today, but this column was a bit hit and miss.  What exactly makes for the excitement and highminded athletic competition, John?  The service academy rivalries? (YES)  The tournaments? (Yes, but less so)  Any game including a service academy, regardless of the opponent?  (Not really).  Any game pitting an underdog against an overwhelming favorite? (Given that 90+% are won by the favorites, no)

I think your criticism is well taken.  John missed the opportunity to point out where the best competition/value lies: in the fiercest rivalries, regardless of the prominence of the program.

(That's why some people around here keep harping on such rivalries as The Little Three, Colby-Bates-Bowdoin, Monon Bell, Dutchmen's Shoes, . . .  ;D )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2008, 11:01:16 PM
This is someone who insists that the Patriot League is the last amateurs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 07, 2008, 11:11:12 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2008, 11:01:16 PM
This is someone who insists that the Patriot League is the last amateurs.

That was basketball, right?  I haven't read "The Last Amateurs."  How does it compare to Austin Murphy's "The Sweet Season?"  I thought that The Sweet Season was terrific, and in that book Murphy describes up close, in detail the lack of bitterness, the lack of anger that Feinstein touches upon in his column.

When I'm D-III Czar, The Sweet Season will be required reading for entering freshmen.  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2008, 11:14:25 PM
I didn't read The Last Amateurs because I disagreed with its very premise from the front cover.

I, too, thought The Sweet Season was excellent.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 08, 2008, 10:27:58 AM
Did he write "The Last Amateurs" before or after most of the Patriot League schools started giving limited basketball scholarships?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 08, 2008, 10:30:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 10:06:49 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 07, 2008, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2008, 09:42:15 PM
Very interesting all around. Surprised my "guess" held up so well under the, uh, statistical spotlight.

So I was reading an article by John Feinstein (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100601791_Comments.html) which co-opted a lot of the rhetoric we use to describe D3 when talking about big networks missing out on football being played by class kids, etc.

I wrote this response:

QuoteI could get with the gist of this article a lot more if it wasn't painted as big guys vs. little guys. Because that's simply a matter of perspective.

It's true the big networks are missing some great college football, wonderful traditions and the like. But aren't the people at Navy just as clueless about The Citadel and VMI, and those guys just as clueless about the Coast Guard-Merchant Marine rivalry?

Those guys would kill to get a sliver of the attention the worst Army-Air Force-Navy game gets, so when you talk about small-college football and guys playing for the love of the game, remember that depending on your perspective, those guys are just as much the big spoiled brats as they are the overlooked good kids who deserve more attention.

Appropriate or am I just being a pee-pee head?

Doo-Doo head maybe but not pee-pee head.
;D

Yeah dude, I have toddlers. Gotta keep it PG.

Actual exchange between MKS and the Stalkerette last night.

Stalkerette:  Daddy told me to stop looking at what he is reading on the computer.

MKS:  Is daddy "working" again?

Stalkerette:  No daddy said he is reading the LLPP and I couldn't look.

KMack, I understand.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 08, 2008, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 08, 2008, 10:27:58 AM
Did he write "The Last Amateurs" before or after most of the Patriot League schools started giving limited basketball scholarships?

Before. I think the book is about a decade old.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 08, 2008, 12:18:34 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2008, 11:14:25 PM
I didn't read The Last Amateurs because I disagreed with its very premise from the front cover.

I may yet read it, but I too have difficulty defining any D-1 basketball players--with their ~30 game schedules extending over 2 semesters, their heavy travel schedules--as amateur student-athletes, where academics have priority.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 08, 2008, 01:12:34 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 08, 2008, 12:18:34 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2008, 11:14:25 PM
I didn't read The Last Amateurs because I disagreed with its very premise from the front cover.

I may yet read it, but I too have difficulty defining any D-1 basketball players--with their ~30 game schedules extending over 2 semesters, their heavy travel schedules--as amateur student-athletes, where academics have priority.

Without having read the book but being familiar with the Patriot League, I would think that is why Feinstein wrote about the Patriot League.  I know that even now with scholarships the kids at Lafayette and Leigh at least adhere to standards that would fit in D-III.  A few years ago Lafayette was being pressured by the Alums to start offering scholarships as the Patriot league was allowing them and administration did not want to.  There were some in the Administration that floated the idea of going D-III.  This never came to fruition, and they do offer limited athletic scholarships but the last I knew these were need based, not talent based.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on October 08, 2008, 10:21:56 PM
As I remember from reading the book, he addresses the schloarship issue about how half the conference was doing it (or beginnning to) and the other half was against it and that some teams may have even moved in/out over the issue. It's a good read. But I agree, The Sweet Season rocks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 09, 2008, 01:36:41 PM
I thought I remembered people saying the Sweet Season was uneven, that the family part seemed forced, but I always liked the book. And then once you go to St. John's you're able to "get it" a little more.

Random change of subject, but I didn't want to lose this link:

If you're ever interested in understanding the 3-3-5 (stack) defense, or why anyone would play it or how you can blitz from it, this page would be a start (http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7249).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on October 09, 2008, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Around the Nation
The Little Giants look rather invincible so far...

This is top notch journalism!   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 09, 2008, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 09, 2008, 01:36:41 PM
...
If you're ever interested in understanding the 3-3-5 (stack) defense, or why anyone would play it or how you can blitz from it, this page would be a start (http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7249).
Great article!  Thanks!  +1!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: muledaddy on October 09, 2008, 08:05:26 PM

K-Mack,

Nice column...very interesting weekend and great coverage of the key matchups ATN.........I am

watching the Friday night fight in Baltimore,  thinking Hopkins may have what it takes to stop the Devils.

  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 09, 2008, 10:34:27 PM
K-Mack,

Great article on the 3-3-5 defense.  Thank you for keeping us informed.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on October 10, 2008, 08:35:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 09, 2008, 01:36:41 PM

If you're ever interested in understanding the 3-3-5 (stack) defense, or why anyone would play it or how you can blitz from it, this page would be a start (http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7249).

I'm never going to get any work done if you keep posting links like this.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2008, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: Conrad on October 10, 2008, 08:35:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 09, 2008, 01:36:41 PM

If you're ever interested in understanding the 3-3-5 (stack) defense, or why anyone would play it or how you can blitz from it, this page would be a start (http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7249).

I'm never going to get any work done if you keep posting links like this.  :)

I know, I get fascinated by stuff like that. It's the real reason ATN takes until mid-week to write :)

I figured I talk about it so much I might do well to be able to explain it better. Not all that different from Mount Union's 4-2-5 ... personally I love the idea of having more hybrid linebacker/safeties who can play run support and cover on the field. But those probably aren't the easiest players to develop either since they have to do so much.

Have you guys ever seen the UW-Platteville power-point presentation "Hurt the Blitz with Your Screen Game?" Fascinating stuff. Google UW-Platteville and "Mike Emendorfer," a lot of instructional stuff comes up. I think he wrote a book on how to run practices efficiently.

There's also the stuff about the zone-blocking & stretch run plays that UW-Whitewater is so good at.

I'll have to find that stuff for you guys :) ... I mean, assuming you don't want to get any work done.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 10, 2008, 10:46:30 PM
CWRU has been using both 3-3-5 and 4-2-5 this season to drive OC's crazy. The first unit, even with injuries, is averaging giving up 5 p/g.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on October 11, 2008, 11:21:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 10, 2008, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: Conrad on October 10, 2008, 08:35:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 09, 2008, 01:36:41 PM

If you're ever interested in understanding the 3-3-5 (stack) defense, or why anyone would play it or how you can blitz from it, this page would be a start (http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=7249).

I'm never going to get any work done if you keep posting links like this.  :)

I know, I get fascinated by stuff like that. It's the real reason ATN takes until mid-week to write :)

I figured I talk about it so much I might do well to be able to explain it better. Not all that different from Mount Union's 4-2-5 ... personally I love the idea of having more hybrid linebacker/safeties who can play run support and cover on the field. But those probably aren't the easiest players to develop either since they have to do so much.

Have you guys ever seen the UW-Platteville power-point presentation "Hurt the Blitz with Your Screen Game?" Fascinating stuff. Google UW-Platteville and "Mike Emendorfer," a lot of instructional stuff comes up. I think he wrote a book on how to run practices efficiently.

There's also the stuff about the zone-blocking & stretch run plays that UW-Whitewater is so good at.

I'll have to find that stuff for you guys :) ... I mean, assuming you don't want to get any work done.

Work, what's that?  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on October 16, 2008, 03:04:22 PM
K-Mack

Loved this week's Around the Nation about the venues.

Which made me think, how many D-III venues I had been to as either a player, coach, fan or broadcaster/writer?

The number I came up with was 40.

I didn't count Wesley playing Morrisville last year at Colgate or Thomas More at Nippert Stadium on the campus of Cincinnati back in 1993. (You are right D-III games are not made or big D-I stadiums.)

Carnegie-Mellon was cool.( Do they still have the old astro cement?) Their band was all dressed in kilts and at halftime aligned opposite the stands and press box and  came running on to the field Braveheart style.

I did notice the number of venues with trains near (add Waynesburg, Del Val, Kean, FDU? its been since '93, Gettysburg)

It would be hard pick a favorite, I'll have to think on it a bit.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 16, 2008, 03:15:17 PM
Two more venues with trains running near the fields are Emory & Henry and Randolph Macon.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 16, 2008, 03:54:56 PM
MSU has trains nearby too.  In fact the tailgates before the football games are in the NJ Transit train station parking lot.

Back when we had a football team NJCU had a nice spot.  It is still the outdoor sports complex, Softball, Baseball, Soccer are all played there.  It is right on the Newark Bay and made for a pleasant fall afternoon watching football.  It could get nasty with the wind, the baseball team christened it Candlestick East several years ago.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bash06 on October 16, 2008, 04:52:49 PM
Wabash has tracks that divide the parking lot from the football field but in my 4 year tenure as a student I might have spotted maybe 1 or 2 trains on the track
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on October 16, 2008, 10:04:28 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 16, 2008, 03:54:56 PM
MSU has trains nearby too.  In fact the tailgates before the football games are in the NJ Transit train station parking lot.

Back when we had a football team NJCU had a nice spot.  It is still the outdoor sports complex, Softball, Baseball, Soccer are all played there.  It is right on the Newark Bay and made for a pleasant fall afternoon watching football.  It could get nasty with the wind, the baseball team christened it Candlestick East several years ago.

Forgot about NJCU, been there too (in '96).  That is a good spot. I remember a view of the twin towers and some urban blight but the facility was nice.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 16, 2008, 10:13:49 PM
CMU now has the new style turf.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 16, 2008, 10:16:08 PM
Quote from: Conrad on October 16, 2008, 10:04:28 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 16, 2008, 03:54:56 PM
MSU has trains nearby too.  In fact the tailgates before the football games are in the NJ Transit train station parking lot.

Back when we had a football team NJCU had a nice spot.  It is still the outdoor sports complex, Softball, Baseball, Soccer are all played there.  It is right on the Newark Bay and made for a pleasant fall afternoon watching football.  It could get nasty with the wind, the baseball team christened it Candlestick East several years ago.

Forgot about NJCU, been there too (in '96).  That is a good spot. I remember a view of the twin towers and some urban blight but the facility was nice.


Conrad

Isn't that the game that one that the Jersey City player used Tate's head for a football? Rather nasty brawl ensued???  
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 16, 2008, 10:48:40 PM
K-Mack,

Great Around the Nation article. I really find the descriptions of the different places interesting.  This site really adds to the D III experience.  I agree with you about the discussions about the polls and the other issues in the general football sections are worthy reads.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 16, 2008, 11:11:58 PM
K-Mack

Ironic that you mention Dorothy and The Emerald city. L. Frank Baum was born a stones throw down the road rt. 13 from Cortland in Chittenango and they have a a yellow brick road.. There is some beautiful views along rt 81 in southern N.Y. Stop at the welcome center just north of the N.Y./ Pa. boarded and enjoy the panorama. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on October 17, 2008, 10:28:40 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 16, 2008, 10:16:08 PM
Quote from: Conrad on October 16, 2008, 10:04:28 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 16, 2008, 03:54:56 PM
MSU has trains nearby too.  In fact the tailgates before the football games are in the NJ Transit train station parking lot.

Back when we had a football team NJCU had a nice spot.  It is still the outdoor sports complex, Softball, Baseball, Soccer are all played there.  It is right on the Newark Bay and made for a pleasant fall afternoon watching football.  It could get nasty with the wind, the baseball team christened it Candlestick East several years ago.
Knight LB Scott Fairlamb with a karate to the head. I remember both teams handling themselves well though, not a brawl. Fairlamb got tossed and the game went on.
Forgot about NJCU, been there too (in '96).  That is a good spot. I remember a view of the twin towers and some urban blight but the facility was nice.


Conrad

Isn't that the game that one that the Jersey City player used Tate's head for a football? Rather nasty brawl ensued???  
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on October 17, 2008, 10:37:36 AM
Great ATN column this week Kmack (from this geographically biased poster). It's a shame that this is the last year for RPI's '86 field - in use since 1912 - but the new stadium (http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/athletics.html) is going to be great for the program.  Appreciate the links to other schools fields it was cool to see the different styles.

Oh, and you forgot to add one thing about Cortland to the article:

Quote
Given the Red Dragons' history -- especially after going 9-1 with an overtime loss to conference champion Rowan and not making the playoffs in 2006 then lost to RPI in the ECACs 26-7

;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 17, 2008, 02:06:04 PM
ATN road trips...

If you needed a good reason to go to Alabama/Georgia, the Huntingdon/LaGrange game on Nov 15th might have playoff implications.  Tipping a hat to those "new" programs might be a good thing to do if you cannot find another playoff-calbire team.  Otherwise, that is the "southeasternmost" venue for D-III football, and there is no other Oglethorpe/Emory/Piedmont team playing.

A general scouting trip might take in (non-football)  Berry College GA which is exploratory for D-III this year.

Maine/New Hampshire has the North Atlantic Conference sponsoring football in 2009.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AF4 on October 17, 2008, 02:20:40 PM
Ralph Turner

thanks for the Huntingdon-LaGrange plug

keep the faith
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2008, 12:30:41 AM
Thanks for the feedback this week everybody. Lots of quick responses:

I am certain I mentioned Gettysburg and R-MC on my list of train schools, no? I have been to Del Val and Emory & Henry and had no recollection of a train at those ones, but now that you mention it, I remember Del Val's. My prevailing non-field memory of E&H was the pool being the visitors' locker room. If that ain't D3 for you, I dont know what is.

Quote from: Knightstalker on October 16, 2008, 03:54:56 PMMSU has trains nearby too.  In fact the tailgates before the football games are in the NJ Transit train station parking lot.

Now that I think if it, the NJ Transit station in Union is right by Kean's field. Add another one!

Gro, I can assure you not acknowledging the ECAC game was no accident, but I did feel wrong saying 9-1.

If I remember to book a flight, I will be at the final '86 Field Game. I don't know if I ever confirmed with the crew, but LLPP attendance is essential! :)

Was wondering if anyone bothered with the links. Good to know they are liked, they are a pain to include, but as long as people get something out of it ...

Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on October 16, 2008, 11:11:58 PM
K-Mack

Ironic that you mention Dorothy and The Emerald city. L. Frank Baum was born a stones throw down the road rt. 13 from Cortland in Chittenango and they have a a yellow brick road.. There is some beautiful views along rt 81 in southern N.Y. Stop at the welcome center just north of the N.Y./ Pa. boarded and enjoy the panorama. 

Coincidental even!

(copy nerd in the house!)

Yes, I stopped at Whiting Point or whatever it was called. Great idea. I was tempted to drive the Cayuga Lake scenic byway for a while too, but since I didn't make it to Ithaca's field until sunset, I figured it was time to get a move on (as my Dad would say)

Someone also told me the Penn-Cam truck stop between Scranton and Binghamton makes the meanest chocolate shakes on earth, but I didn't notice it on the way up or back.

In Binghamton there's a football field right off the highway, and there was a game going on both times I passed it.

Ralph, I am free on the 15th so far, but I try to keep that open for rivalries or really key playoff-implication games. Which I guess the 'don/Granger game might fit.

Will definitely have to do the other NE states at some point. Did I remember to mention in the column that I'm told Middlebury had a ridiculously great view too?

Was surprised how easy it was to find field photos at a lot of these sites (a lot of 'facilities' tabs on football pages). It makes sense, I just don't always expect D3 schools to do everything that makes sense (if it costs dollars ... ho! rim shot, I'll be her all week)

I still need to update the Daily Dose thread with places I have been and compare to Pat. See how far the two of us have to go to "complete the grid." I'm more ticked about the ones I've missed when I've had opportunities (Whittier, Puget Sound, Methodist, etc.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 18, 2008, 06:56:18 PM
Jackson Field Alpine TX runs east-west and is just south of the Southern Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_Transportation_Company) tracks.

The east-west orientation makes for a crosswind that we seldom experience in Texas.  It is tough on the QB's to get used to.  The press box is on the north sideline and so the sight lines in the late afternoon require you to look into the sun when looking towards the west.


You can google-map "Jackson Field Alpine TX" to get the satellite picture of the field to see the layout vis-a-vis the sun and the RR tracks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 18, 2008, 09:34:47 PM
Penn-cam truck stop may be the one in Bend near the Pa. / NY boarded
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 18, 2008, 11:22:56 PM
R-MC ... might be "less-fancy" but still a great place to see a game!

Day Field:
http://www.rmc.edu/athletics/Mens/football/The_Game.aspx
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 18, 2008, 11:59:54 PM
Gotta love all the "Pat Coleman" mentions on the Occidental webcast of the Oxy v. Chapman game.

"Pat Coleman, of d3hoops.com.  I think he's the chairman of the board at d3hoops.com."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 19, 2008, 12:31:15 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 18, 2008, 11:59:54 PM
Gotta love all the "Pat Coleman" mentions on the Occidental webcast of the Oxy v. Chapman game.

"Pat Coleman, of d3hoops.com.  I think he's the chairman of the board at d3hoops.com."

Really? That's pretty funny.

If those are the same Oxy radio guys as before, we've met and/or worked with them before, so it makes some sense. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 19, 2008, 12:51:35 AM
Yeah, I regularly exchange IMs with them at night.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 19, 2008, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 19, 2008, 12:31:15 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 18, 2008, 11:59:54 PM
Gotta love all the "Pat Coleman" mentions on the Occidental webcast of the Oxy v. Chapman game.

"Pat Coleman, of d3hoops.com.  I think he's the chairman of the board at d3hoops.com."

Really? That's pretty funny.

If those are the same Oxy radio guys as before, we've met and/or worked with them before, so it makes some sense. :)

No lie, those guys were all over Pat Coleman, and Pat Coleman was all over the internet airwaves.

"This is a non-conference game for Oxy, and since Chapman is an independent, Chapman pretty much needs to win out in order to qualify for the playoffs--Pat Coleman's going to be sending me messages now about Pool C, Pool B, . . . "

"Yep, Pat Coleman says that Pool C is for conference second place finishers, . . . Pat Coleman, of d3hoops.com.  I think he's the chairman of the board at d3hoops.com."

During one of the breaks, they begged for more advertisers, and they mentioned that the talent costs were appropriately low for ads read on their broadcasts.   :D  Again, no lie.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DanPadavona on October 20, 2008, 04:26:03 AM
Keith,

Great to meet you last week at the game.  I wish I had more time to hang out, but by the time I finished my chili and bugged Fran for regional score updates I had to get back to the field and set up again.

To answer your question as to what the stadium looks like during Cortaca, this should whet your appetite:

http://www.cortlandfootball.com/dragon.htm (http://www.cortlandfootball.com/dragon.htm) 

If you need photos for the ATN article, just let me know.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KitchenSink on October 20, 2008, 01:08:14 PM
Now I have this image of Pat C in a tuxedo singing "I did it MY WAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!" and "New York, New York ... "

Pat, you smoothie, you.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: SaintsFAN on October 21, 2008, 11:36:16 AM
Keith,

I saw the ATN poll question.  If you are thinking about visiting KY/TN on November 2nd... you should stop by Crestview Hills, KY as Thomas More will be hosting Washington and Jefferson.  The teams should arrive at this game with one combined loss. 

Just a suggestion
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 23, 2008, 01:43:35 AM
I really like the All-Star Game at the Stagg, for all the reasons that you mentioned.

The teams could be selected 3 weeks in advance to save on airfare and to allow the selectees to finish semester work in advance.

The "day-before" could be a good warm-up for the officials and production crews, (but I defer to TV people on that).  It would certainly add another day to the hotels, a financial boost to the Salem area.

In the absence of a "big venue", I think that making the Salem area the feature is in the best interest of D-III.  Cooperstown and Canton each have their own "feel".  Why not Salem?  Salem has been good to D-III.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 23, 2008, 09:39:28 AM
K-Mack,

Great artlicle in ATN.  What makes Division III special is that every team has a chance to play for the Championship.  The current system of Automatic Qualifiers and 32 teams is sooooo much better than leaving undefeated teams out of the playoffs.  I think it is very benefitial for Division III football when each conference championship means a trip to the playoffs.  Thank you for all you do in promoting D3 football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 23, 2008, 12:49:59 PM
Thanks for the props Ralph, and additions to the idea.

You too HSC, although you realize inherent in our friendship is a once-a-year, four-hour disclaimer?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 23, 2008, 01:19:39 PM
K-Mack,

That goes without saying.    ;D ;D ;D 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on October 23, 2008, 01:28:39 PM
I'd love to hear what Carey Harveycutter in Salem has to say about the possibilty of an All-Star game there. A follow-up column perhaps, Keith?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 23, 2008, 04:08:46 PM
Quote from: HSC85 on October 23, 2008, 01:19:39 PM
K-Mack,

That goes without saying.    ;D ;D ;D 

Just making sure you knew who you were giving all those niceties to.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 23, 2008, 06:05:54 PM
The night before the Stagg Bowl makes perfect sense.  Built in crowd as 90% of the folks coming to the Stagg would attend it too.  Would make the perfect D3 weekend even better!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 23, 2008, 07:46:42 PM
And you gain at the parents and players for  the Bowl game
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 23, 2008, 08:39:27 PM
Some of us ATN readers have a denial system to maintain, and reading the copy boy cub reporter complaining "Good Lord, I'm old" is not helpful.   :-\  :D

Are the Regional Rankings out this week?  I thought they weren't due until next week.  Wouldn't you love to be the fly on that/those committee's wall(s)?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 23, 2008, 08:46:13 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 23, 2008, 08:39:27 PM
Some of us ATN readers have a denial system to maintain, and reading the copy boy cub reporter complaining "Good Lord, I'm old" is not helpful.   :-\  :DAre the Regional Rankings out this week?  I thought they weren't due until next week.  Wouldn't you love to be the fly on that/those committee's wall(s)?

You beat me to it.  As someone nearing his 40th reunion, would those younger than some of my sweatshirts please stop with the "I'm so old" routine! :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 23, 2008, 09:07:22 PM
K-Mack,

I know where you went to school.  I am an HSC fan first, but I pull for other ODAC teams when they are not playing the Tigers.  I am encouraged by the improvement of RMC over the past couple of years.  It makes The Game mjuch more interesting when it is competitive.  I played on Stokely Fulton's last 4 teams and I have a son on the Tiger team now.  The battles against RMC when I played were memorable.  The past several years before last year did not live up to the past tradition.  Keep up  the good work.  But,  I do think that you have to have more than one double digit reunion before you can call yourself "old".
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 23, 2008, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 23, 2008, 08:46:13 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 23, 2008, 08:39:27 PM
Some of us ATN readers have a denial system to maintain, and reading the copy boy cub reporter complaining "Good Lord, I'm old" is not helpful.   :-\  :DAre the Regional Rankings out this week?  I thought they weren't due until next week.  Wouldn't you love to be the fly on that/those committee's wall(s)?

You beat me to it.  As someone nearing his 40th reunion, would those younger than some of my sweatshirts please stop with the "I'm so old" routine! :D

College or High School?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 23, 2008, 11:16:14 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 23, 2008, 10:20:34 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 23, 2008, 08:46:13 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 23, 2008, 08:39:27 PM
Some of us ATN readers have a denial system to maintain, and reading the copy boy cub reporter complaining "Good Lord, I'm old" is not helpful.   :-\  :DAre the Regional Rankings out this week?  I thought they weren't due until next week.  Wouldn't you love to be the fly on that/those committee's wall(s)?

You beat me to it.  As someone nearing his 40th reunion, would those younger than some of my sweatshirts please stop with the "I'm so old" routine! :D

College or High School?

High school's in my rear-view mirror (I abstained); college in 2 years (undecided).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 01:26:13 AM
Old is a state of mind. Or in the eye of the beholder. Something.

I guess I'm not old compared to true old guys, just old compared to my old self. :)

I don't believe the committee technically has any walls; I assume the rankings are done by conference call. And yes, I would listen in if in fact I could hack into it were permitted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 28, 2008, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 01:26:13 AM
Old is a state of mind. Or in the eye of the beholder. Something.

I guess I'm not old compared to true old guys, . . .


"true old guys?"

How about a nice, hot cup of SHUT THE HECK UP?

To quote Yoda, "shut up the heck, you must."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 29, 2008, 09:10:11 AM
Re: Sponsor for all-star game

NAIA just picked up Russell Athletic as sponsor for its championship.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 29, 2008, 11:03:30 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 28, 2008, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 01:26:13 AM
Old is a state of mind. Or in the eye of the beholder. Something.

I guess I'm not old compared to true old guys, . . .


"true old guys?"

How about a nice, hot cup of SHUT THE HECK UP?

To quote Yoda, "shut up the heck, you must."


WHAT??? Did YOU SAY SOMETHING?  KEEP IT DOWN WILLYA, I AM TRYING TO WATCH THE WHEEL!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on October 29, 2008, 11:15:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 01:26:13 AM
Old is a state of mind.

Well, yes, it is ... until Arthur and his brother Itis come calling and you have to have a knee replacement.  :'(

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 29, 2008, 11:58:37 AM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on October 29, 2008, 11:15:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 01:26:13 AM
Old is a state of mind.

Well, yes, it is ... until Arthur and his brother Itis come calling and you have to have a knee replacement.  :'(



Or when one of the kids you coached in high school is now the head coach ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 12:47:47 PM
Quote from: cwru70 on October 29, 2008, 09:10:11 AM
Re: Sponsor for all-star game

NAIA just picked up Russell Athletic as sponsor for its championship.

D3's sponsor(s) probably have to be the same as the NCAA's overall sponsor. In other words, if Division I is running a big thing with Coke, we probably couldn't go out and get Pepsi (or more fittingly, RC Cola) to help us out.

In effect, the NCAA men's basketball tournament in March is the D3 sponsor.

It's possible though, as an outside organization with the NCAA's permission, someone could put it on.

We could raise the price of Kickoff to $49.99 and do it ourselves! (kidding)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 06:43:12 PM
I think this week's topic is very much love it or hate it. I'm eager to see which (and I will interpret silence as hate)  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wesleydad on October 29, 2008, 06:56:38 PM
kmack, excellent article.  i attend the games first and foremost to watch my son.  but, since we have been attending his games we have met some of the nicest people, you included that we are not looking forward to the end of his playing days.  stone station, the mhb guys, cnu85, and others are great people and i look forward to spending more time this and future years watching games.  my wife and i have talked about what we are going to do after this year and i told her that i was planning on still attending games.  she takes pictures as you know of wesley games and i was joking that maybe she could work for d3 as a photographer and i would have a built in excuse to go to the games, someone has to drive.  if you havent seen her pictures check out wesley, they have a link to them.  you captured the essence of what makes football great, people of all walks of life hanging around and enjoying each others company.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2008, 07:46:44 PM
Keith,

One glaring omission on your pool C list.  IF Wheaton wins out, I'd say they're a lock.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 10:30:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2008, 07:46:44 PM
Keith,

One glaring omission on your pool C list.  IF Wheaton wins out, I'd say they're a lock.

Yeah, they were supposed to be on there. They're in the list of one-loss teams above.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: allsky7 on October 30, 2008, 06:03:38 AM
      Keith.....great ATN this week. Not sure I should admit this around this crowd but actually had tears in my eyes before I finished. Winning is great but I suspect that isn't what's most important to most folks 20 or 30 years after the fact. It's the friendships and common bonds created and life lessons learned along the way.
      My Dad and I discuss all the time that if our government were run in the same manner as a successful football team.....we wouldn't be in this mess we are in now.  I bet Jo Pa could straighten out DC in no time.  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2008, 12:28:40 PM
Alright, for that admission I gave you your 100th +k karma.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: allsky7 on October 30, 2008, 04:17:35 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2008, 12:28:40 PM
Alright, for that admission I gave you your 100th +k karma.

     Gee, thanks Pat. Do we get to cash these in at some point? You know, like for d3 gear, Stagg Bowl tickets, or something.   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 06:12:01 PM
Ever looked carefully at coupons?  They have a cash value, usually 1/20th cent.

Karma points are worth 1/2000000th cent each.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: muledaddy on October 30, 2008, 08:58:04 PM
K-Mack,

Nice job ATN, as usual. This week was a cut above, when you can get the leathery skinned father of a senior Mule to feel that special feeling in the back of the throat, the beginng of a tear in the eye,
and a hint at the moment of truth, when his boy walks off of the field, at the end of his last game.Thanks.

Finally, does anyone know where I can buy some karma; I seem to be losing mine.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2008, 01:39:37 AM
If there were a Daily Dose/Triple Take board, I'd post it there.  This is the board that seems to come closest, so I'll post it here.

Looking back over the Triple Take, going item by item, Ryan Tipps was on fire!

Update:

Kind of dropped off a cliff with that "Wheaton shall rise from the ashes" pick, but hey--you had company.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wesleydad on November 02, 2008, 11:04:33 AM
i am not sure if this is the best place for this question, but i figured it would be a start.  after reading many posts from yesterdays, 11/01 action, it seems that a big issue has been the officiating.  is it really that bad around the country?  even the teams that win seem to be complaining about it.  i know that several of the wesley games were not officiated very well.  just wondering.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2008, 08:34:07 PM
This is most certainly the board for random chatter among die-hards (as well as stuff that came up in the column), feel free to post items like that here. You usually get a prompt response.

To the second question, I will say this: I hear the complaining about the officials all across the country, but I tend to think it's not that bad. But maybe that's because I'm trained to consider all angles and take the emotion out of it ... it almost makes me too benefit-of-the-doubt-y to find fault.

In other words, the complaining is everywhere, but I'm not sure if it's because the officiating is that bad, or because partial people with an average grasp on the rules see it with a different slant.

For some reason, the Stagg Bowl stands out in officiating calls ... the big one they missed in in SJU-MUC, and then the run of success with replay affirming on-field calls in the UWW-MUC games, at least 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on November 02, 2008, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 02, 2008, 01:39:37 AM
If there were a Daily Dose/Triple Take board, I'd post it there.  This is the board that seems to come closest, so I'll post it here.

Looking back over the Triple Take, going item by item, Ryan Tipps was on fire!

Thanks for the props, redswarm! It's nice to have a good week here and there -- and it's even nicer to be acknowledged for it. :)

But if you're putting together a list like this, ya gotta mention my pick of the W&J upset as well.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2008, 08:59:26 PM
Quote from: Ryan Tipps on November 02, 2008, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 02, 2008, 01:39:37 AM
If there were a Daily Dose/Triple Take board, I'd post it there.  This is the board that seems to come closest, so I'll post it here.

Looking back over the Triple Take, going item by item, Ryan Tipps was on fire!

Thanks for the props, redswarm! It's nice to have a good week here and there -- and it's even nicer to be acknowledged for it. :)

But if you're putting together a list like this, ya gotta mention my pick of the W&J upset as well.  ;)

D'oh!!  How DID I omit that one?  Duly noted and updated.

(Maybe it's because I had actually seen that one coming for a couple of weeks, and I had become accustomed to the idea as if it were fact. )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 02, 2008, 09:27:57 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 02, 2008, 08:34:07 PM
This is most certainly the board for random chatter among die-hards (as well as stuff that came up in the column), feel free to post items like that here. You usually get a prompt response.

To the second question, I will say this: I hear the complaining about the officials all across the country, but I tend to think it's not that bad. But maybe that's because I'm trained to consider all angles and take the emotion out of it ... it almost makes me too benefit-of-the-doubt-y to find fault.

In other words, the complaining is everywhere, but I'm not sure if it's because the officiating is that bad, or because partial people with an average grasp on the rules see it with a different slant.

For some reason, the Stagg Bowl stands out in officiating calls ... the big one they missed in in SJU-MUC, and then the run of success with replay affirming on-field calls in the UWW-MUC games, at least 1 and 2.

  Just a couple of thoughts on the officiating debate.

One of the obvious calls that angers a lot of people is when an official 50 yrds from a play makes a call when the ref looking at the play lets it go..There is one back judge that has done more than a few games at Wesley who has done this a lot. And yet watched a player punch another player and not make the call. There is a funny story with this non call. Coach Drass called a timeout to discuss it with the ref. The ref decided to walk away before the time out was over and Coach Drass insisted that he still had 20 secs left to use of his time out. It was classic.

The other call or non call is the whistle to stop a play... It seems to me that when crews don't use their whistles that there is a little extra tussling and that leads to more hits later and later until it boils over into pushing and shoving . Which leads
to temper flair ups and then we have that after every play.

  I think for the most part there are calls that aren't going to go your teams way but the refs do a decent job. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 02, 2008, 09:29:21 PM
There is a Daily Dose board -- I mean, the Daily Dose itself is a board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 02, 2008, 09:37:40 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 02, 2008, 09:29:21 PM
There is a Daily Dose board -- I mean, the Daily Dose itself is a board.

I've had difficulty in the past registering for the Daily Dose board.  I suppose it's time to try again.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 02, 2008, 09:41:30 PM
Daily Dose is the easiest one -- no confirmation required. Just provide a real e-mail address. That address doesn't even go public.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2008, 11:14:00 PM
Quote from: allsky7 on October 30, 2008, 06:03:38 AM
      Keith.....great ATN this week. Not sure I should admit this around this crowd but actually had tears in my eyes before I finished. Winning is great but I suspect that isn't what's most important to most folks 20 or 30 years after the fact. It's the friendships and common bonds created and life lessons learned along the way.
      My Dad and I discuss all the time that if our government were run in the same manner as a successful football team.....we wouldn't be in this mess we are in now.  I bet Jo Pa could straighten out DC in no time.  ;D

+1 k, my man.

And thanks to you and MuleDaddy for the kudos. It's always best to know what you write matters to someone.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2008, 11:43:14 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 02, 2008, 09:41:30 PMDaily Dose is the easiest one -- no confirmation required. Just provide a real e-mail address. That address doesn't even go public.

I've had trouble signing in before even though I know my password is good.

Usually I switch browsers and the other one works.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 12:30:22 AM
If I ever get around to starting that famous D3 alum thread, former Heat GM Randy Pfund was a Wheaton guy.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:23:44 PM
ATN updated with Rivalry Watch, Five Games to Watch and those guys.

Pretty sure it's been up for less than an hour, but in case you were one of the first to read it AND you also happen to surf over here ... I felt like sharing :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on November 06, 2008, 02:17:10 PM
Keith,

Oxy clinches the SCIAC with one more win (either this week or next). Wartburg does not clinch the IIAC, even if they win out. They need help in the form of a Buena Vista loss (to Central this week?).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 03:19:30 PM
Quote from: d-train on November 06, 2008, 02:17:10 PM
Keith,

Oxy clinches the SCIAC with one more win (either this week or next). Wartburg does not clinch the IIAC, even if they win out. They need help in the form of a Buena Vista loss (to Central this week?).

Yeah, you're right. I don't even remember writing the IIAC one, so I have no idea what I was thinking at what time of night.

Oxy I just glazed over the fact that they've already beaten CLU and Redlands. D'oh.

Will fix.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2008, 05:26:50 PM
Wow, that's a lot of D3 media on the CotY selection committee.  Props.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 05:45:58 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2008, 05:26:50 PM
Wow, that's a lot of D3 media on the CotY selection committee.  Props.

I guess so. But by the same token, who else is gonna do it? :)

We do Division II too, if I recall last year correctly.

On a new topic, I missed hitting 27.6 mil by one:

Quote27600001
D-III fans to this page
since July 7, 1999
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2008, 05:50:33 PM
I'm just pleased and surprised that they actually recognize that D3 coaches should be evaluated by a panel that knows D3 football.  Maybe ESPN will come to the same conclusion one day for their Stagg broadcasts  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 05:55:46 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2008, 05:50:33 PM
I'm just pleased and surprised that they actually recognize that D3 coaches should be evaluated by a panel that knows D3 football.  Maybe ESPN will come to the same conclusion one day for their Stagg broadcasts  :D

That'll be the day.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 06, 2008, 09:48:50 PM
CWRU v CMU is a rivalry game too:

http://www.case.edu/athletics/varsity/sports_men/football/stats/2008/academic%20bowl.htm
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2008, 07:10:38 AM
Quote from: cwru70 on November 06, 2008, 09:48:50 PM
CWRU v CMU is a rivalry game too:

http://www.case.edu/athletics/varsity/sports_men/football/stats/2008/academic%20bowl.htm

I will keep that one in mind in the future. Generally the rivalry games spotlighted go back further than 1986, but if the fervor is there, I'll acknowledge it.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jam40jeff on November 07, 2008, 08:22:37 AM
I agree as well...as far as football rivalries go, it is relatively new and not quite like most schools' football rivalries.  But it also is a bigger rivalry than it would appear to outsiders, as the schools have a strong "academic rivalry" due to them both being very well-respected engineering schools and only being 2 hours apart in cities which have one of the biggest pro football rivalries.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 07, 2008, 09:08:55 AM
As I recall, Carnegie Tech played Case Institute in the 40s. I'm going to the archives for clarification.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 07, 2008, 09:13:22 AM
And the rivalry actually goes back to CWRU's first season 1970, it just got a name more recently.  The overall series is 26-11 CMU.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 07, 2008, 09:42:14 AM
Carnegie Mellon's archives show that Carnegie Mellon (or its predecessor, Carnegie Tech) has played Case or WRU or CWRU starting in 1906, off and on and never Case or WRU in the same year. CMU's record vs. Case is 10-10-0, vs. WRU 8-1-0 and vs. CWRU 26-11-0.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on November 07, 2008, 08:40:25 PM
did not see this mentioned anywhere, if it has sorry about that.
Nice article about D III football student, athlete, and work.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/local_colleges/D-III_Footballs_purest_form.html (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/local_colleges/D-III_Footballs_purest_form.html)

enjoy
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 07, 2008, 08:51:12 PM
Quote from: old ends on November 07, 2008, 08:40:25 PM
did not see this mentioned anywhere, if it has sorry about that.
Nice article about D III football student, athlete, and work.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/local_colleges/D-III_Footballs_purest_form.html (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/local_colleges/D-III_Footballs_purest_form.html)

enjoy
Pat had this on the front page earlier in the season.   ;)

http://www.publish2.com/journalists/pat-coleman/links/d3football
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2008, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 07, 2008, 08:51:12 PM
Quote from: old ends on November 07, 2008, 08:40:25 PM
did not see this mentioned anywhere, if it has sorry about that.
Nice article about D III football student, athlete, and work.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/local_colleges/D-III_Footballs_purest_form.html (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/local_colleges/D-III_Footballs_purest_form.html)

enjoy
Pat had this on the front page earlier in the season.   ;)

http://www.publish2.com/journalists/pat-coleman/links/d3football

It's still out there on the right-hand rail, actually. Maybe not for much longer though, as it appears to be the fifth result of the five showing.

Good stuff though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 2sportdevil on November 18, 2008, 11:16:53 AM
On the subject of Carnegie Tech vs Case, my memory tells me that Case hosted Carnegie Tech for homecoming. If I remember correctly it must have been in the early '50's. My memory isn't very clear for the '40's.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 18, 2008, 10:28:36 PM
Did we ever determine exactly what happened between the submission of the bracket with Wartburg at Occidental and Aurora at Willamette to ESPN, where Pat saw it, and the final bracket with Oxy going to Oregon?

I am curious if the committee submits their final bracket to someone who has veto power or does a cost-analysis, and do they do a back-up bracket ... or if that was just a mistake.

I would like to speak knowledgeably about this later in the week.

I will write Dick Kaiser directly and ask Pat what he knows, but thought I would post here in case it was on any of the shows and anyone in the general public knows. Sometimes that's the fastest way to get an answer.

KMc.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2008, 09:29:19 PM
I usually don't put e-mailers on blast, but this kind fellow specifically asked me to circulate his, so I'll oblige:

Quote-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Riggi, Rick" <XXiiii2@xxxxxxxx.org>

"So, yeah, enjoy that home game"...WOW, way to disrespect a good team with a good tradition.  As a father who has seen his son make the playoffs in each of the last four years, and watch as Hobart wins the league 3 of the last four years, I struggle with the fact that all you guys can do is regurgitate Mt. Union's praise.  If you people could do more than just spit-up the Mt. Union bile, you might be more than a second rate journalist.

Oh yeah,  the above holds true for those other brainiacs Ryan, Frank, and Pat.  If you see them please tell them for me.

This is what you guys sound like..."Blah, Blah, Blah....Mt. Union"...."Blah, Blah, Blah...Mt. Union"

Here is my response to him:

QuoteMr. Riggi,
I re-read the paragraph in question on account of your e-mail and I stand by all of it.

I will make sure the others see your note.

Good luck tomorrow,

Keith McMillan
National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com

Certainly I could have said more, but he didn't seem ready for a rational conversation, as parents of a player often are not.

I don't like to give e-mails like this too much credence with a response, although posed differently, I would certainly be glad to have this discussion.

Was I dimissive of Hobart's chances should they earn a game at Mount Union? Yes.

Do I regret that? No.

As we often must remind folks, we are on Mount Union's jock because they have earned it. Well, let me replace "we" with "I" and not speak for the other guys.

Let me remind anyone reading that my own alma mater, a team I would like to see win more than any other, goes to Mount Union this weekend. Was I dismissive of their chances too? Yes.

Not because I think it's fun to all hail Mount Union and knock whoever plays them. Because they really do have very little chance of winning. I have been doing this for 11 years now, eight or nine with D3football.com, and it's been proven over time that Mount Union is not very vulnerable to the type of teams they play in the first three rounds. Semifinals and Stagg Bowl, possibly.

If proven wrong, I would gladly give respect where it is due, even retroactively, and admit that I was very wrong.

Should anyone want to have a rational discussion, the floor is open.

I realize it's not comforting to hear that Mount Union is very likely going to kick the crap out of your favorite squad, son's team, alma mater, etc.

But even a second-rate journalist knows the difference between doing your readers a service by calling it like you see it and doing them a disservice by lying to them outright.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 21, 2008, 09:48:53 PM
I am glad you used often instead of always.   ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2008, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 21, 2008, 09:48:53 PM
I am glad you used often instead of always.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

I might be second-rate, but I'm not stupid.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 22, 2008, 02:22:20 AM
Agreed. We are not here to lay false hope on people. There's a reason that Mount Union has been to the quarterfinals 15 years in a row and the semifinals 13 years in a row. The Purple Raiders actually ARE that good.

And if you don't believe so, go out there and prove otherwise.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MajorDad on November 22, 2008, 07:16:41 AM
Keith,
I agree whole-heartedly with your response and attitude. Those of us who have sons on teams within DIII, the Alums who follow their alma mater religiously, do, on occassion like reading positive stories about their team, who doesn't? No one wants to hear that their team is going to get steam rolled this coming Saturday. But I, as a fan, would rather hear the real story on chances for victory. Sometimes, that makes it that much sweeter..........Thats why we call them upsets!!!!!!!!

Keep doing what you and the others do, appreciate it!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on November 22, 2008, 07:21:53 AM
As you are no doubt aware, the other Hobart fans, alums and parents all love and appreciate your work (wouldn't mind a couple of front page or feature stories, but that makes us like 95% of the other schools site users I would suppose).  

I can't defend the Mr. Riggi, but I suppose its better that he's passionate (rational - not so much) than disinterested in the long run.  He just doesn't know about schools outside of our region (or probably off the schedule for that matter).  

I'm heading to the game and just checked the weather and its supposed to be snow a little and a high of 22 ("feels like 13") according to weather.com.  For anyone following the Hobart game, I just saw the game notes (http://www.hwsathletics.com/documents/2008/11/21/Lyco.pdf) which list FR Doug Vella as the #1 and not Doyle, so that will be interesting.  Vella is talented and showed it with +/- 120 yards in the 4th quarter vs. RPI, but struggled against U of R in the mudpit.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 22, 2008, 07:56:09 AM
Hopefully Hobart can take care of business today so that Dad can see first hand what The Machine is capable of ;)

Keith, Pat, etc:  I think you guys do a great job of focusing on everything except Mount Union thru the regular season to spread the D3.com love around the best you can.  Come playoff time, the focus has to switch to those 32 teams that made the dance.  And it's only natural that those teams higher up the foodchain get more of the "pre-playoff love".  If someone beats the 600 lb gorilla at the top of the East bracket, then I'm sure they'll get the attention they deserve.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2008, 12:10:39 AM
hs,
That's a good point, we actually go out of our way to spread the love during the regular season and the playoffs.

If someone beat Mount Union before the semifinals, they'd get plenty of publicity. Frankly it would be about the most interesting thing that could happen as we would be discussing something that virtually never happens.

This week Hobart will certainly get some attention as the team going in. And really no matter the attitude -- R-MC was pretty respectful, others have not been -- you have to play your best game to beat Division III's best team. It can be done, but it is not easy.

On to today's topics ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2008, 12:13:03 AM
How about today's results? A fair number of lower seeds won. Occidental would have fared a lot better vs. it's original matchup ... or would it have?

A couple Pool C runners up did better than the teams that beat them out for their conference titles (W&J won, Thomas More didn't; Curry won, Plymouth State didn't; UW-W won, UW-SP didn't ... Wheaton/North Central pulled the daily double for the CCIW, OAC couldn't ... and ASC was matched against itself.

Quote#  WarhawkTrombone Says:
November 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm

D3Kieth: "It is kind of weird, if Ithaca > Cortland St. > Plymouth State > Curry ... yet Curry beats Ithaca"

Haven't we learned anything about comparative results this year? ;)

This year? That's old news, I'm just fascinated/obsessed with pointing it out each time :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2008, 03:56:39 AM

Quote from: MajorDad on November 22, 2008, 07:16:41 AM
Keith,
I agree whole-heartedly with your response and attitude. Those of us who have sons on teams within DIII, the Alums who follow their alma mater religiously, do, on occassion like reading positive stories about their team, who doesn't? No one wants to hear that their team is going to get steam rolled this coming Saturday. But I, as a fan, would rather hear the real story on chances for victory. Sometimes, that makes it that much sweeter..........Thats why we call them upsets!!!!!!!!

Keep doing what you and the others do, appreciate it!

Quote from: pumkinattack on November 22, 2008, 07:21:53 AM
As you are no doubt aware, the other Hobart fans, alums and parents all love and appreciate your work (wouldn't mind a couple of front page or feature stories, but that makes us like 95% of the other schools site users I would suppose).

Thanks for your wisdom, guys. I do get lots of nice compliments via e-mail and I don't share them all, though I do appreciate them all.

You might not be surprised to learn that there's a rash of a-hole e-mail going around this time of year. I don't know if these people thinking they're helping the situation, but they make it a little more difficult to honestly feel good for these teams and cover them the way we should. Luckily we're professionals and not so easily swayed :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2008, 05:13:39 AM
Rick wrote me again. Killing some time before my plane leaves Columbus, so thought I'd share.

You'd be surprised what people write us ... as though one of our picks being wrong pierces us to the core of our existence. No, not that! I think I wrote on the Dose that I expected to miss 2-6 games this week. It's reality. And it's the playoffs, what fun would it be if I could easily pick all the winners? The seeds most certainly didn't hold up.

Anyway, I got crazy e-mail from Curry too, but later for that. Here's Riggi!

Quote-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Riggi, Rick" <RRiggi2@keshequa.org>
> So let me get this straight:  you stand by your disrespectful attitude towards
> Hobart?   Nice guy!  It's one thing to have an opinion, it is quite another to
> put unnecessary snide comments into an article which degrade the hard work and
> fine tradition of a good football program.

> How does saying "So yeah, enjoy that home game" advance your point except to
> show contempt for the Hobart program?  This is an undeserved slight, and you
> should seriously be ashamed of yourself.

> Hobart wins 33-15.  Lycoming scored a touchdown with 25 secs left on the clock. 
> Way to call the spread genius.

> Rick Riggi

My reply (only because I had so much time on my hands) :)

Rick,
Yes, I stand by what I wrote. That's part of offering your thoughts out there for everyone's consumption, and frankly, that's how a man would handle it. I guess your son will learn that from Coach Cragg.

I didn't have much to say to you the first time because you seemed like you were more interested in venting than having a rational discussion.

I don't mind constructive criticism. Could I have been more sensitive? Yes.

Do I regret the sentiment of what I wrote? No. We made the decision when we started the site that it would not be the Yearbook Club. We don't only share happy thoughts. I have a responsibility to act as the eyes and ears of readers across the country who do not get to see teams play, talk to players and coaches or spend the hours I spend each week analyzing the national picture, etc. For me to sugarcoat it, I believe, is doing those readers a disservice.

Not only am I not ashamed about that, I'm proud of it. Readers, even ones with sons on the team, have written to say they respect that about the work we do.

  I don't see it as showing contempt for Hobart. I see it as being honest about the challenge that awaits. I understand that you disagree.

I'd be delighted if your son's team would beat Mount Union. It would be the most interesting thing to happen early in the playoffs in a long time. Actually, I would have been more delighted if my alma mater had beaten them this week. I wasn't foolish enough to predict they would. They lost 56-0. You see where I'm going with this?

We give Mount Union more respect than anyone else because they have earned it. 13 straight appearances in the semifinals, 11 Stagg Bowls and a classy attitude about it all, win or lose. Not that you would recognize that if you saw it. We don't pick them to do well because it serves our interest, we pick them to do well because that's what's likely to happen.

Doesn't mean they can't be beaten. Doesn't mean we won't be wrong sometimes. I'm wrong a lot. It's an inevitable side effect of making predictions. Should I quit now because you insulted them?

I really do hope you enjoyed Saturday's home game. As for me and my "genius" picks against the spread, I will be sure to come closer on Hobart-Mount Union. And even though you won't like the pick, I hope you enjoy the experience. That is, after all, half the fun of the playoffs.

Hobart is a fine program. If you think you're doing it or your son a service by sending me condescending e-mail, you're wrong. Lucky for your son, it doesn't matter how much you mouth off to me. Hobart will be treated with the respect they have earned. I am certain we will feature the team this week on the site.

I don't wish to continue exchanging messages with you in this tone. Stooping to your level once is enough for me. Feel free to write back though, and enjoy the game this coming Saturday.

Keith McMillan
National Columnist
Keith@D3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 23, 2008, 09:09:06 AM
In my best Joe Tait voice: 

SLAM with the right hand.....




Keith,

I wonder what Riggi would think if he wandered over to the OAC Pick-Em page? ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on November 23, 2008, 09:34:14 AM
Keith, that was a great email back to him.  I don't get the anguish on his part.  When I played, Bart was average to slightly above average in the East (5-4, 6-3 type seasons), but had historically been worse than that.  This is in Cragg's tenure.  He's taken this program and made it very respectable (5 straight NCAA's, 7 out of 9 this decade), but even he has stated that while he takes pride in last year's senior class for being very good and making the playoffs every year, he explicitly notes that they weren't great because the second round was their ceiling.  I'd give a left "you know what" to have played in the playoffs and these kids have come up big in almost all of their big games, but something has been missing at some point along the way, whether its depth, talent, coaching (individual game-wise, not body of work which I think has been terrific).

Long story short, I love what the program has become, but the journey still has a way to go and I look forward to seeing them continue the climb and hope and assume it won't be a sisyphisian (is that the proper use) task.  MUC will almost defnitely win (unless my prayers are answered), but I know Cragg and he'll have these kids ready to play.  At the end of the day, all I want is (assuming MUC does what they are expected to do) for MUC to walk off the field saying "DAMN, they may not have been 'there', but those bastards gave us one hell of a fight" as the Statesmen walk off the field as their name would suggest.   

*If you do give us any love going into this game, a couple of notes:
-Yesterday might've been their best play of the year.  I think they are adjusting to a bunch of new personnel coming on late due to injuries, which partly explains the offense in RPI and U of R.  Marlier looked as good as any of Bart's best backs over the last decade yesterday, cutting and bursting despite snow on the field. 
-They are pretty banged up (TE Duliba and RB Hobaica out for season as of WPI, Vincent and Schulz have missed time and Lovell has been banged up), even Doyle has a separated shoulder (throwing), and underthrew all day long (incl the two picks and the TD to Vincent, which was supposed to be a deep fade, but Vincent came inside the DB to catch it)
-The defense has bent, but held up well all year (Aruck, Hager and Sanders are on par with many of the best in DIII I truly believe), they run a 4-4 designed to stop the run and the biggest weakness is 10 - 15 yrds between the seams on passing plays.  The DB's aren't huge, but cover very well and the safety is 5'4", but played like a giant all year. 
-Hager was their best defenseman on the DI lacrosse team last year and has played in "big games" there including beating #4 Syracuse in the Dome in 2006 (spring, so fall 2005 for football).  A true athlete and in my view more significant than Booth - who got a lot of DIII pub back in the day. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 23, 2008, 09:39:57 AM
KMack, after next week can you print your next email?

Dear Rick,

Did you enjoy that home game?

Thanks, Kmack


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on November 23, 2008, 09:52:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2008, 05:13:39 AM
Do I regret the sentiment of what I wrote? No. We made the decision when we started the site that it would not be the Yearbook Club. We don't only share happy thoughts.

Hahaha, yearbook club.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F167%2F472072086_539a3a1378.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=8b1133280a757c3cf2511ab1a63bf9814e880c50)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 23, 2008, 10:59:22 AM
agreed.

i am about as avid a hobart fan as you'll get:

i've posted nearly 3000 times on these boards - yeah i know my current total doesn't reflect that but don't forget the "board change" that happened a few years back that zapped some old posts;

i been writing weekly bart football columns for the past 2 seasons; and

thanks to frank and eric, even cover them on the BlogTalkRadio.com show

that being said - what that kid's dad wrote was pathetic.  i understand the passion but the comments show a tunnel vision that takes away any credibility. 

i was once a MUC-hater myself and thought the focus of this site was to glorify things MUC and North Region in general, but over time the more closely i read - the broader i expanded my scope - the more comfortable i got with the reality that a) there's 239 teams in D3fb - that's a lot to cover and b) 1 of them, namely MUC flat out is heads and shoulders above the rest.

like you said, the results speak for themselves.

regardless, hopefully hobart will simply play with class and prove to the rest of the D3 nation that they deserve to be ranked in the Top 25 (which is no small accomplishment btw).  Like PA, I played in a day when Hobart was a mediocre at best program.  Their track record since 2000 has been impressive.

But, like PA said, even Coach Cragg will admit that for whatever reason the team hasn't advanced past the second round yet.  Until that happens on a more consistent basis, a true fan of the program can't believe that we are even in the same league as the MUCs of D3.

Either way, this is a great opportunity for the Hobart program no matter what happens.  The late Bill Maxwell always said," To be the best, you have to play the best".  Well, it doesn't get any better than MUC.

I hope our Statesmen will do us proud by playing their hearts out on Saturday.  Even if/when they lose, hopefully they can do so with pride knowing they gave it their best shot and give the rest of the nation notice that whether it's for a quarter, half, etc that they hung with the best.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 23, 2008, 06:50:22 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 21, 2008, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on November 21, 2008, 09:48:53 PM
I am glad you used often instead of always.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

I might be second-rate, but I'm not stupid.

How can it be said that the Mount Union of the message board is second rate.  You and Pat I really hold in high esteem.  I may not always agree with you two but you guys are top notch in my book.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2008, 08:15:41 PM
And it's nice to see Keith taking full advantage of the free wireless in the Columbus airport. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MajorDad on November 24, 2008, 04:52:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2008, 08:15:41 PM
And it's nice to see Keith taking full advantage of the free wireless in the Columbus airport. :)


LOL
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 24, 2008, 05:39:47 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 23, 2008, 08:15:41 PM
And it's nice to see Keith taking full advantage of the free wireless in the Columbus airport. :)

That is cause he has a slave driver for a boss ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 26, 2008, 06:51:47 PM
More crzay e-mail from teh weekend. (wow, nice spelling) ... meant to actually get this up in time for the boring last day that no one works before they leave for Thanksgiving break.

This one is super-baffling because:
1) not once did I mention Curry in last week's ATN.
2) I was the one who thought they deserved to be in when we discussed this on the podcast (though I realize not every one sees/listens to every bit of work we do)
3) the guy cc'ed the e-mail to Pat (who didn't think they deserved to be in) so as to brag "look at what I said to Keith."
4) I was the first one to pick an NEFC team (Curry) to win a playoff game, though I was a year early.
5) And this guy and I have traded nice e-mails in the past.

I don't get it, but then again, I don't possess superhuman brainpower.

Have not responded, just thought I would share.

QuoteFrom: NAMEINALLCAPS@aol.com
subject: Kieth Eat's His Words Again

Hi Keith ... "One and done" HA HA!!  Curry made you eat your words again Keith!!!  Curry just beat your D3Football #12 ranked team Ithaca... you didn't even rank Curry in your D3Football top 25! 

Check the stats on today's game!  Curry outplayed Ithaca in every area!!!!!!  The only thing Ithaca got lucky on was the score!

Get a new job Keith: you've been bad mouthing Curry for years and the NEFC too!  That's two straight years the NEFC and Curry won in round one of the tournament. 

KEITH, YOU'RE ALL WET AND SURELY ARE "EATING CURRY-FLAVORED CROW!!!!

Writer's Name
Curry 196x

cc'ed the first one to Pat and Ryan Tipps.

Then sent it to Pat, cc'ed to me and Ryan, with this:

QuoteHi Pat, I sent this to Keith:

(same e-mail)

Probably that and the fact he still uses AOL tells us something :)

Anyway ... I think he sent another one later.

I got some nice e-mail too this week that I should share, but this is the most fun kind.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wesleydad on November 26, 2008, 07:30:50 PM
keith, i am not going to send it email, i will put it here for all to read.  no matter whether i agree or disagree with any of you on this site, you guys do a great job.  your insight is based on what you know which is more than most of us do about so many of the teams.  the fact that some can not handle it when you or pat or ryan pick against their team just shows how petty they are.  i have been on this site for the last 3 years and you guys have been nothing but professional in your dealings with anything that has had to do with wesley.  sometimes you have picked against them and been wrong, other times you have been way too correct.  it is a shame that some people take all of this personal, when it is nothing more than a couple of peoples educated opinions on a game.  keep up the good work and i hope that you guys never change how you go about putting out your opinions.  i say that before you make your picks for this weekend and if you pick against wesley, everything i just said is a lie.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 26, 2008, 09:18:09 PM
Quote from: wesleydad on November 26, 2008, 07:30:50 PM
keith, i am not going to send it email, i will put it here for all to read.  no matter whether i agree or disagree with any of you on this site, you guys do a great job.  your insight is based on what you know which is more than most of us do about so many of the teams.  the fact that some can not handle it when you or pat or ryan pick against their team just shows how petty they are.  i have been on this site for the last 3 years and you guys have been nothing but professional in your dealings with anything that has had to do with wesley.  sometimes you have picked against them and been wrong, other times you have been way too correct.  it is a shame that some people take all of this personal, when it is nothing more than a couple of peoples educated opinions on a game.  keep up the good work and i hope that you guys never change how you go about putting out your opinions.  i say that before you make your picks for this weekend and if you pick against wesley, everything i just said is a lie.  ;)

Now that's funny.

I mean honestly I post stuff up here not looking for sympathy so much, although I appreciate the kind words here and everywhere we stop throughout the season.

Part of it I guess is to share the kind of feedback we get, part is to demonstrate how NOT to craft a response that will get addressed seriously. Certainly most of you reading this thread are the kind of folks who if they had an issue would present it to one of us in a way where we could give you an honest answer and at best make the change you wish to see and at worst agree to disagree.

Also though I post the exchanges because if I go to the trouble to craft a response, a lot of the stuff in there might answer the questions for people who have similar gripes.

Anyway, thanks for reading & contributing.

As for this week's picks, I have no idea which way I'm going to go on some of them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: janesvilleflash on November 26, 2008, 09:30:50 PM
I wouldn't pick Hobart, just trying to help.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2008, 04:34:54 AM
About time to give this one a rest:

QuoteK-Mack: The Mount Union of the message board :)

It was good to me over the years though.

I see a lot of others' sig lines I really like.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 27, 2008, 11:38:08 AM
Quote from: K-mack's new sigK-Mack: The low-budget, non-scholarship Kirk Herbstreit

LMAO!  Tho maybe you need to add "under appreciated" given some of the snarky emails you get.    ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2008, 04:25:44 PM
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4102.2069

NCAA playoff sponsored road trips versus the usual school sponsored roadtrip.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2008, 07:51:15 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2008, 04:25:44 PM
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4102.2069

NCAA playoff sponsored road trips versus the usual school sponsored roadtrip.

Addressed like so:

Quote from: K-Mack on November 28, 2008, 07:50:20 PM
Quote from: Teamski on November 26, 2008, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: footballfan12 on November 25, 2008, 11:37:08 PMInterested to hear what others have to say. Especially the guys that think a coach would bus his players 8+ hours for a playoff game....

Um..... the NCAA will only fly teams if the distance is over 500 miles.  So, yeah, a coach may have to bus his team 8 hours if he wants them to play. 

In case this isn't totally clear, the NCAA picks up the tab for ALL playoff travel. (a major difference between Division III and NAIA, where schools foot their own bill)

The NCAA's deal is this: They pay for 52 players and 10 coaches/support staff. If the game is more than 500 miles away, they will fly you. If it is less than, they will pay for your buses. Included is per diem for meals, etc.

UMHB and Millsaps are famously close to the 500-mile limit. You might run a search on MapQuest or Google maps and get over 500, and if you use the NCAA's approved mileage calculating software wrong, as it is assumed the committee did when building the brackets in 2006, you could get more than 500. If you use it correctly, you get 491.

That explain it?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2008, 08:01:50 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 27, 2008, 04:34:54 AM
About time to give this one a rest:

QuoteK-Mack: The Mount Union of the message board :)

It was good to me over the years though.

I see a lot of others' sig lines I really like.

Here are some ... these are at least good board wisdom.
janesville flashIf you can't ignore an insult, top it; if you can't top it, laugh it off; and if you can't laugh it off, it's probably deserved.

hscoach
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

dc_has_been
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Gro's Purple Drank of course is my current No. 1 :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 28, 2008, 08:48:08 PM
Thanks K-Mack!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on November 29, 2008, 06:59:19 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 28, 2008, 08:01:50 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 27, 2008, 04:34:54 AM
About time to give this one a rest:

QuoteK-Mack: The Mount Union of the message board :)

It was good to me over the years though.

I see a lot of others' sig lines I really like.

Here are some ... these are at least good board wisdom.
janesville flashIf you can't ignore an insult, top it; if you can't top it, laugh it off; and if you can't laugh it off, it's probably deserved.

hscoach
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

dc_has_been
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Gro's Purple Drank of course is my current No. 1 :)

Sadly purple drank will have to be retired soon...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 29, 2008, 08:38:02 PM
Quote from: 'gro on November 29, 2008, 06:59:19 PM
Sadly purple drank will have to be retired soon...

Where's your savvy, son? Recommission that bad boy for Mount Union, UMHB, UWW ... too bad Millsaps fell off. Purple is the color of the postseason ... maybe it's that drank!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2008, 10:48:25 PM
Quote from: 'gro on November 23, 2008, 09:52:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2008, 05:13:39 AM
Do I regret the sentiment of what I wrote? No. We made the decision when we started the site that it would not be the Yearbook Club. We don't only share happy thoughts.

Hahaha, yearbook club.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm1.static.flickr.com%2F167%2F472072086_539a3a1378.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=8b1133280a757c3cf2511ab1a63bf9814e880c50)
Listening to Brent Musburger prattle about the Big XII during OU-Okie State game...

It reminds me of "Yearbook Club"!  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 30, 2008, 07:31:23 PM
These are reposted from the Dose, but usually stuff gets lost there after a new post goes up. i.e. no one reads the Triple Take comments after the Game Day thread is up.

Met a lot of good folks when I visited with the Franklin crowd at Otterbein. Wouldn't be surprised if these guys were among them.

Franklin had great fans, for sure, so these posts are not their best representatives. But since they stay with the theme on the ATN board lately:

QuoteD3Keith Says:
November 29th, 2008 at 9:07 pm e

I'm kicking myself for having no [g]uts on Franklin. I definitely almost made that pick, but I was one of the first to be really impressed with North Central too. I had a feeeling Franklin would be in the game and would go score-for-score with NC, but I didn't forsee the Griz W.

Felt that W&J would matchup with Millsaps for a while too, but definitely didn't foresee the running game exposing the Majors so much ... nice win there.

Keith 5-3 (missed with North Central, Wesley and Millsaps)
Ryan 5-3 (missed with North Central, Wesley and Millsaps)
Pat 4-4 (missed with Willamette, North Central, Curry and Millsaps)

AndrewChrz 5-3 (missed with North Central, Wesley and Millsaps)
UMHBFAN 5-3 (missed with Monmouth, Wabash and Curry)
bleedpurple 5-3 (missed with Wabash, Wesley and Millsaps)

Everyone hit some, no one hit 'em all ... UMHB fan was almost going to give you props for going out on a limb, but you basically took everyone the experts didn't take and still ended up 5-3.

We all did better than the NCAA committee:

Higher seeds 3-5 (missed with North Central, Millsaps, Willamette, Monmouth, Wabash)

QuoteGRIZ82 Says:
November 30th, 2008 at 12:24 am e

Well, I tried to tell ya......
Goodnite, Wheaton.......

Oh yeah, I forgot....

Nice classless fans for NC....you might be able to steal stuff from our tailgate during the second half, while we were kicking your over rated behinds...but

We will fly our flag when we want, and where we want, and today, the blue and gold flies in Naperville.

Quotegrizfan4 Says:
November 30th, 2008 at 11:38 am e

Please D3.com guys ... pick Wheaton this week !! You've written Franklin off every week ... don't change now !! Side note - at least North central had some fans show up — Otterbein should never host a game again after their over-confident fans didn't even show up in round 1 !!

QuoteD3Keith Says:
November 30th, 2008 at 7:10 pm e

:roll eyes:

There's a big difference between not picking a team and writing them off. I wrote a very complimentary feature about Franklin and was very impressed with their play against Otterbein; Just so happens I was very impressed with North Central too. It was a toss-up for me, but you gotta pick someone if you actually man up and make picks.

First-round sites are rewards for the teams that earn them (in the selection committee's eyes) and fan attendance has nothing to do with it, nor should it. Otterbein has a huge grandstand that made their home crowd look smaller than it was, and doesn't have a very lengthy history of being good in football, so an average-sized crowd is understandable and doesn't really indicate overconfidence. I'm sure it was very similar when Franklin first started its rise.

Pretty sure I'll be picking Franklin this week, sorry to disappoint. 

Also,
Just for the record, the rest of us who have no stake in the fight regard accusations of "classless" fans with a grain of salt. A) it usually takes two to tango and B) one man's classlessness is another man's 'what's wrong with that?'

Your post doesn't exactly reek of class either.

Also,
I'll never understand why people think calling another team overrated is an insult. If North Central was overrated, that means it really wasn't that great of an accomplishment for Franklin to beat them.

Nice one!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 30, 2008, 11:16:42 PM
Thanks Keith. Some of these guys haven't had the chance to pay attention to football in December so they are understandably exuberant about their team. No doubt winning on the road at Otterbein and at North Central is impressive. If they can beat a pretty good Wheaton team at home they will earn the ultimate reward....an all expense paid trip to the purple altar in Alliance Ohio.

Given the common opponent results w Wheaton (Trine/NCC) I wouldn't be too quick to pick Franklin. You can be sure the Wheaton coaches will treat Franklin with the utmost respect but they will be prepared for Rupp and company.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 01, 2008, 09:16:43 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 29, 2008, 08:38:02 PM
Quote from: 'gro on November 29, 2008, 06:59:19 PM
Sadly purple drank will have to be retired soon...

Where's your savvy, son? Recommission that bad boy for Mount Union, UMHB, UWW ... too bad Millsaps fell off. Purple is the color of the postseason ... maybe it's that drank!

You gotta earn the title!  Frankly, those teams - with all their recent championships or stagg bowl apperances - are too high class for the drank... it shall be reserved for the underappreciated and scrappy (although I wouldn't be surprised if some UWW fans have purple drank T-shirts if they make the stagg, those crazy state school kids).  You see, purple drank is not just a beverage, it's a state of mind.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on December 01, 2008, 01:07:40 PM
Not sure if this is the best place for this, but thought I'd put it out there.  Below is a direct quote from today's Ivan Maisel BCS column on ESPN.com. 

These guys (still) just don't get it:

A playoff is not the panacea to cure college football's ills. A playoff would present as many problems as it does solutions. A playoff is politically unfeasible unless the regular season is shortened, which is financially unfeasible. A playoff could suck the life out of the regular season, much as it has done to college basketball.

A playoff wouldn't ratchet up the tension throughout November -- National College Football Arguing Month -- the way the BCS does.


I don't recall there not being any "tension" throughout this November.  My "home conference", the LL for instance, wasn't wrapped up until the last regular season game.  The play-off format in D3 only added to, not "suck the life out of" Hobart's regular season.  Whatever.

Jeez.....

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2008, 01:17:45 PM
Quoting Dan Patrick's interview with Erin Andrews on p. 28 of the December 1st SI...

QuoteDan Patrick:  More hair-care products:  you or Kirk Herbstreit?

Erin Andrews:  Wow, I would say we're probably equal.  Now, Jesse palmer, you could throw him in there as well.


Huhhh!  No K-Mack?


Why he is the self-proclaimed "Kirk Herbstreit" of D3!!!   :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 12:08:11 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2008, 01:17:45 PM
Quoting Dan Patrick's interview with Erin Andrews on p. 28 of the December 1st SI...

QuoteDan Patrick:  More hair-care products:  you or Kirk Herbstreit?

Erin Andrews:  Wow, I would say we're probably equal.  Now, Jesse palmer, you could throw him in there as well.

Huhhh!  No K-Mack?

Why he is the self-proclaimed "Kirk Herbstreit" of D3!!!   :D

Low-budget though! We can't afford hair products, that's why I keep the same low haircut as in my ATN sig picture eight years ago.

I'll have a word with Erin if she draws the Stagg assignment this year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 12:16:35 AM
Quote from: TGP on December 01, 2008, 01:07:40 PM
Not sure if this is the best place for this, but thought I'd put it out there.  Below is a direct quote from today's Ivan Maisel BCS column on ESPN.com. 

These guys (still) just don't get it:

A playoff is not the panacea to cure college football's ills. A playoff would present as many problems as it does solutions. A playoff is politically unfeasible unless the regular season is shortened, which is financially unfeasible. A playoff could suck the life out of the regular season, much as it has done to college basketball.

A playoff wouldn't ratchet up the tension throughout November -- National College Football Arguing Month -- the way the BCS does.


I don't recall there not being any "tension" throughout this November.  My "home conference", the LL for instance, wasn't wrapped up until the last regular season game.  The play-off format in D3 only added to, not "suck the life out of" Hobart's regular season.  Whatever.

Jeez.....

Hear here.

This concept came up in the Wash. Post newsroom the other day, where it was easily determined that there was no need to argue, because literally almost NO ONE that doesn't work for ESPN or one of the Power Six conferences thinks the BCS is a better idea than the playoffs.

Maisel would be a first.

The thing is, Division I-AA/FCS does it with 16 teams and the same amount of available weeks.

If you compress the season to feature no byes, you could get an 8-team or a 16-team jobber in by Jan. 7 (date of BCS title game) ... it's only the max number of extra weeks for two schools, and business as usual for most.

We know kids can play playoff football and still graduate. (miss class? Do what the rest of the student body does when they miss class, do the work in advance or make it up later. Not hard)

Bottom line was if they wanted a playoff, they could figure out how to get it done.

Personally, if they prefer bowls, fine ... but don't try to serve us a BS "national champion." That's the only part that irks me, the fact that some one-loss teams are superior to others when we look at any playoff system and see two-loss teams smoking them. It's the nature of football and it deserves to be sorted out on the field.

Rant over.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 12:18:48 AM
Not to mention the "it would ruin the regular season" argument is super-dumb.

The chase for eight or 16 playoff spots would ratchet up regular-season importance by creating more second chances for teams to get into the show ... and then we'd get bonus playoffs on top of it.

Plus you still have conference races & rivalries.

Our regular season is awesome.

I've honestly stopped caring about how D-IA does it wrong. I just kick back and enjoy my D3 every fall.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on December 02, 2008, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 12:08:11 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2008, 01:17:45 PM
Quoting Dan Patrick's interview with Erin Andrews on p. 28 of the December 1st SI...

QuoteDan Patrick:  More hair-care products:  you or Kirk Herbstreit?

Erin Andrews:  Wow, I would say we're probably equal.  Now, Jesse palmer, you could throw him in there as well.

Huhhh!  No K-Mack?

Why he is the self-proclaimed "Kirk Herbstreit" of D3!!!   :D


Low-budget though! We can't afford hair products, that's why I keep the same low haircut as in my ATN sig picture eight years ago.

I'll have a word with Erin if she draws the Stagg assignment this year.

How many more tickets does the Stagg sell if Ms Andrews draws that game?

And secondly, can K-Mack get the interview?

Thirdly, Can he speak if he does?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 02, 2008, 12:23:27 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 12:18:48 AM
Not to mention the "it would ruin the regular season" argument is super-dumb.

The chase for eight or 16 playoff spots would ratchet up regular-season importance by creating more second chances for teams to get into the show ... and then we'd get bonus playoffs on top of it.

Plus you still have conference races & rivalries.

Our regular season is awesome.

I've honestly stopped caring about how D-IA does it wrong. I just kick back and enjoy my D3 every fall.

It really is quite simple in concept.  11 AQs' 5 at large bids for a 16 team playoff.  4 Pool C types and 1 Pool B type from the independents, there are only four in D-1A.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 02, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
16 teams would be nice, but I'd be more than happy to see an 8 team playoff in D1.  The best scenario would be the Top 8 teams based on whatever calculation is used.  But even 6 AQ's and 2 at-large bids would be infinitely better than the crap we have now. 

Personally, I don't have a problem with the BCS calculation methodolgy.  I just hate that it's used to pick the only 2 teams with a shot at the mythical title.  If it was used to pick the 2 at-large bids to a playoff or the entire 8 or 16 team field, then we'd be cool.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bill McCabe on December 02, 2008, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: hscoach on December 02, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
16 teams would be nice, but I'd be more than happy to see an 8 team playoff in D1.  The best scenario would be the Top 8 teams based on whatever calculation is used.  But even 6 AQ's and 2 at-large bids would be infinitely better than the crap we have now. 

Personally, I don't have a problem with the BCS calculation methodolgy.  I just hate that it's used to pick the only 2 teams with a shot at the mythical title.  If it was used to pick the 2 at-large bids to a playoff or the entire 8 or 16 team field, then we'd be cool.

hscoach,  I would be happy to see any type of playoff, 4 teams, 8 teams, whatever.  Hope to see one in my lifetime and I'm beginning to worry some.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 02, 2008, 04:52:54 PM
I agree with KS, 11 AQ's and 5 at large... but no pool B. The pool is too small, it's almost looks like a Notre Dame clause (not recently though, haha). Use the BCS or something similar to pick the 5 at large bids. The part that I don't get is how ESPN is so against this. In a world of 24 hour news and multiple networks, wouldn't it help to expand the coverage beyond the major conferences? As the season goes on, even that coverage gets narrowed down to the potential title game contenders. It gets boring fast.

In a 16 team playoffs people would actually care about who is winning the smaller conferences... and therefore ESPN would cover them. All the nuances that we already see in D3 - who picked up their 2nd loss, conference tie breakers, etc - would be covered over and over by the talking heads... and the fans would enjoy it. And finally I'd like to see at least the first 2 rounds at the schools... could you imagine a home playoff game at Florida, PSU, Ohio St, or USC?

Every other division does it right.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2008, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: 'gro on December 02, 2008, 04:52:54 PM
I agree with KS, 11 AQ's and 5 at large... but no pool B. The pool is too small, it's almost looks like a Notre Dame clause (not recently though, haha). Use the BCS or something similar to pick the 5 at large bids. The part that I don't get is how ESPN is so against this. In a world of 24 hour news and multiple networks, wouldn't it help to expand the coverage beyond the major conferences? As the season goes on, even that coverage gets narrowed down to the potential title game contenders. It gets boring fast.

In a 16 team playoffs people would actually care about who is winning the smaller conferences... and therefore ESPN would cover them. All the nuances that we already see in D3 - who picked up their 2nd loss, conference tie breakers, etc - would be covered over and over by the talking heads... and the fans would enjoy it. And finally I'd like to see at least the first 2 rounds at the schools... could you imagine a home playoff game at Florida, PSU, Ohio St, or USC?

Every other division does it right.
And in a field of 16, you have 8 potential Cinderellas!

Remember how much fun Boise State Oklahoma was two years ago?

Remember how much fun the opening round of March Madness is when those "name" programs with "egos" run into a fundamentally solid program of guys who have been playing team basketball for 2-3 years?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 02, 2008, 05:58:59 PM
Quote from: 'gro on December 02, 2008, 04:52:54 PM
I agree with KS, 11 AQ's and 5 at large... but no pool B. The pool is too small, it's almost looks like a Notre Dame clause (not recently though, haha). Use the BCS or something similar to pick the 5 at large bids. The part that I don't get is how ESPN is so against this. In a world of 24 hour news and multiple networks, wouldn't it help to expand the coverage beyond the major conferences? As the season goes on, even that coverage gets narrowed down to the potential title game contenders. It gets boring fast.

Didn't ESPN just buy the TV rights for the next BCS contract?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 02, 2008, 06:32:08 PM
I would think that with eight teams you still get the conference prejudices you get now with the BCS. If teams from the so called elite conferences don't play bigger schools  non conference how do we really know that one conference is better than another ???   And this year there are two non BCS schools eligible for major bowls I think
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:17:13 PM
Quote from: Bill McCabe on December 02, 2008, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: hscoach on December 02, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
16 teams would be nice, but I'd be more than happy to see an 8 team playoff in D1.  The best scenario would be the Top 8 teams based on whatever calculation is used.  But even 6 AQ's and 2 at-large bids would be infinitely better than the crap we have now. 

Personally, I don't have a problem with the BCS calculation methodolgy.  I just hate that it's used to pick the only 2 teams with a shot at the mythical title.  If it was used to pick the 2 at-large bids to a playoff or the entire 8 or 16 team field, then we'd be cool.

hscoach,  I would be happy to see any type of playoff, 4 teams, 8 teams, whatever.  Hope to see one in my lifetime and I'm beginning to worry some.   ;)

Agree with you both.

Quote from: 'gro on December 02, 2008, 04:52:54 PM
I agree with KS, 11 AQ's and 5 at large... but no pool B. The pool is too small, it's almost looks like a Notre Dame clause (not recently though, haha). Use the BCS or something similar to pick the 5 at large bids. The part that I don't get is how ESPN is so against this. In a world of 24 hour news and multiple networks, wouldn't it help to expand the coverage beyond the major conferences? As the season goes on, even that coverage gets narrowed down to the potential title game contenders. It gets boring fast.

In a 16 team playoffs people would actually care about who is winning the smaller conferences... and therefore ESPN would cover them. All the nuances that we already see in D3 - who picked up their 2nd loss, conference tie breakers, etc - would be covered over and over by the talking heads... and the fans would enjoy it. And finally I'd like to see at least the first 2 rounds at the schools... could you imagine a home playoff game at Florida, PSU, Ohio St, or USC?

Every other division does it right.

Agree here with you guys, Gro.

I actually wrote a column for some small paper years ago laying out this AQ/at-large scenario, and ESPN.com floated the exact same idea a year later. When you actually look at the D1 rankings and form the bracket, and you see, say, Oklahoma having to go through, say, unbeaten Ball State, USC and Florida to win it all, you realize how much fun it could be.

I agree, early rounds on campus, late rounds at BCS bowl sites. This ensures good crowds on short notice, and the ability to earn a home game (fans and TV peeps will always find "controversy" to talk about) ... but people can pre-buy tickets for The Rose Bowl not knowing the matchup the same way they do for The Final Four. I honestly think giving extra time to book advance travel is one of the reasons the PTB (powers that be) prefer bowls. Mo' money!

I honestly think if someone like Paul Allen came up with the money, the schools would do it. I don't believe the "final exam week" issue is a problem that can't be overcome.

But yeah, ESPN's recent TV deal is an obstacle to makng this happen any time soon.

However, if people stopped giving a crap, they would switch up quickly.

I have opted to stop giving a crap. This is the most i've discussed it anywhere.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM
I've always said that Paul Allen thing ... someone once told me he actually made an offer -- not just any guy, but him -- and it was turned down.

No idea if that's true.

But if some rich entity could guarantee the payouts for the first few years, and top what the Bowls do without leaving bowl tradition completely out in the cold ... it could probably be done.

Look at the ACC expansion. The schools did it for an extra million a year from the championship game. Plus the next TV deal. That's it.  Money talks.

I wouldn't mind a 16-team playoff that forced the abolition of conference championship games.

But whatever, we've got some cool playoffs going on here and in I-AA and II.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2008, 09:44:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM
...
But whatever, we've got some cool playoffs going on here and in I-AA and II.

I hope that our TV ratings beat the other 2 championship games.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 03, 2008, 12:03:32 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM
I've always said that Paul Allen thing ... someone once told me he actually made an offer -- not just any guy, but him -- and it was turned down.

No idea if that's true.

What if this was partially reversed.  Say Paul Allen decides he wants to "own" march madness.  he buys the NIT and offers the top bball schools lucrative deals to forgo the NCAA tournament for his own... and then crowns the winner as national champion.  People would look at him like he had 2 heads.  Isn't this basically how it works in Football (without the sanctioned tournament to begin with).  If the NCAA wanted to install a playoff, isn't it within their rights to do so? If teams balk for a bowl game fine... Ball State ends up playing Utah for the real championship.

aaaanyway... D3 will always interest me more than D1, it just bothers me when something is so obviously flawed.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcoopdujour.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F04%2Fbig-worm.jpg&hash=f14d7edb502d2be1b7eb466dda8ff4777416e2f6)
It's the principle of the whole thing
There's principalities in this
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 03, 2008, 08:49:14 PM
Quote from: 'gro on December 03, 2008, 12:03:32 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM
I've always said that Paul Allen thing ... someone once told me he actually made an offer -- not just any guy, but him -- and it was turned down.

No idea if that's true.

What if this was partially reversed.  Say Paul Allen decides he wants to "own" march madness.  he buys the NIT and offers the top bball schools lucrative deals to forgo the NCAA tournament for his own... and then crowns the winner as national champion.  People would look at him like he had 2 heads.  Isn't this basically how it works in Football (without the sanctioned tournament to begin with).  If the NCAA wanted to install a playoff, isn't it within their rights to do so? If teams balk for a bowl game fine... Ball State ends up playing Utah for the real championship.

aaaanyway... D3 will always interest me more than D1, it just bothers me when something is so obviously flawed.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcoopdujour.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F04%2Fbig-worm.jpg&hash=f14d7edb502d2be1b7eb466dda8ff4777416e2f6)
It's the principle of the whole thing
There's principalities in this

We could talk about this for a long time ... but yes, the NCAA could push its own playoff and membership would probably splinter for a few years, creating two brackets and still no legitimate champ. Ideally we'd want them all to switch to the playoff at once.

Personally I can't see the NCAA running it unnles the Bowl Champ. Subdivision schools vote for them to do it.

Bothers me too Gro, but I'm over it.

Playing with my football, though, that's like playing with my emotions.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 04, 2008, 03:54:47 AM
Oh, don't pay me any mind ... just storing this here in case I need to refer to it any time soon:

From this fracas:
http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2008/11/29/game-day-round-of-16/#comment-13375

QuoteBartman,
You have a funny way of getting to your point. Instead of starting out having a "discussion about the issues" in the beginning, which is what normally goes on here and has been for years before you arrived, you come out guns blazing, attacking people, then you act all offended when someone hits back. You're probably going to do it with this post too.

Give me a break. At least be a man and take responsibility for the attitude you're bringing to the discussion. The victim complex, when you are just as much a party to the slandering and the arguing as the other side is, is lame.

You do have a chip on your shoulder, you've been repeating the same comment I made for three weeks now, as though that overshadows every other thing I've written about Hobart ... in the same paragraph, same article, same season or on the same website for the past eight years.

You are still welcome to post here. You are welcome to dissent. You are welcome to make your arguments, well thought out or not. But before your last post, I was starting to believe you could not be reasoned with.

I realize that in helping run a website where Dads like yourself can interactively follow their sons' careers free of charge, I don't get to choose what the discussions here entail, and how much logic and reason they involve.

However, let me explain something to you one last time. I did not go to Mount Union; in fact, I went to a school who got the snot kicked out of them by MUC the week before. I learned to appreciate Mount Union by observing they way they do things, the same way I learned to appreciate St. John's and Rowan and Mary Hardin-Baylor and UW-Whitewater, etc. When we shower people with praise around here it is earned ... perhaps that's why you crave it for Hobart so.

Guys like you come along every year running their mouths about Mount Union this, Mount Union that, ruining the perception of their school's fans in the process. It's happened with St. John Fisher fans and Ithaca fans, etc., the past couple years, and they mostly only made themselves look bad.

Usually as their D3 horizons expand, they mellow out some.

It's a shame your son was a senior this season, as I think you would have enjoyed getting to know some of the good apples from Mount Union, just as the Mount Union fans would enjoy getting to know some of the good Hobart guys.

From where I sit, I see arrogant fans arguing with each other, then slowly coming to realize that they're not all that different. I don't often get involved because I see it happen year after year on these boards. The end result is usually a good thing.

There are arrogant fans from your school, and there are arrogant fans from their school. Hobart runs a class program and deserves respect, just as Mount Union runs a class program -- regardless of whether your brief experience there reflects that or not -- and deserves respect.

The sooner you stop being one of the arrogant fans and start being one of the ones with an open mind, willing to consider what's beyond Geneva, N.Y., the sooner you'll find people on these boards already have intelligent discussions and they do have and show respect for each other. Not always, but it's here.

The D3football.com community owes a great debt of gratitude to fans from Mount Union and Hobart, among other schools, for helping to foster this atmosphere and make Post Patterns and The Daily Dose comments what they are.

We're never going to over-police the boards or censor speech in a major way, but Pat and I have no problem letting the bad apples know that while they are welcome here, their attitudes are not. We have done this from the very beginning, and while it will cost us a few patrons, in the long run it probably keeps a bunch here too. I can't speak for Pat, but I do not regret this.

You might find this ironic, Bartman, but I can recall a Mount Union fan -- I think his name was Doug -- getting very upset over a column I wrote because it didn't respect Mount Union enough. And here you are saying how D3football.com fans fawn over the Purple Raiders.

Kinda funny when I place myself in the middle of all that.

Stop being condescending, lose the victim complex and use your knowledge to contribute positively to the discussion you say you crave. I know you can do it!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 04, 2008, 04:08:30 AM
As you all know, I like to discuss everything right out in the open.

For those of you who enjoy the e-mail files ... got an apology this week, which was one of the classier things I'd seen. I'm sure some of the details weren't meant to be made public, but it's good to see all the e-mail we get isn't crazy-folk e-mail.

There are incidents between fans every year, and some of my favorite fans from ... let's say a big-time Stagg Bowl-caliber program ... have intense dislike for fans of other big-time Stagg Bowl caliber programs.

I'm not trying to say things don't happen between fans ... Only that we don't really want to be part and parcel to escalating them, and that from where we sit, as D3football.com ... we tend to find most of the people we meet on either side of any given game are good folks at heart.

QuoteKeith-

I want to apologize for my post on the D3 boards on Saturday. Not very  classy on my part to say the least.

You guys do a tremendous job, and I very rarely ever do any blogging  or posting, and my emotions got the best of me.

I visit the site several times a day during the season and will  continue to do so, and I will not get carried away again!

FYI, I am a Franklln alum, and my eldest son plays for Coach L as do several of his HS teammates.
I have been following FC football since the mid 70's, have seen a lot  of good and bad football over the years, and this team is special. And there's not a finer coach in the country by all standards.

As an aside, what I was referring to in my post was the fact that during the second half, in our tailgate area, some NC students or young alums stole most of the contents of our coolers, as well as 
personal items.

As we were departing, we stopped by the stadium so we all could use the restroom, which was nearby the NC tailgating area. We had an FC flag on the car, and we were treated to profane commentary which
I don't need to repeat. We didn't say a word.

NC was by far the best team we've played (definitely NOT over-rated), and I'm pretty sure we are the only team in the bracket that could've  beaten them. So I am sure their fans were upset, but they were, in fact, very classless, at least a few of them.

I think you are aware of our tailgating, which is the best in D3, so I  was just a bit surprised at their behavior...I am very sure they didn't hear anything like that last season from our fans.

Anyway, again, my apologies. Hope to see you down the line...I'll apologize in person.

G
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 'gro on December 04, 2008, 10:29:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 03, 2008, 08:49:14 PM
Playing with my football, though, that's like playing with my emotions.

Nice comeback. +k
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on December 07, 2008, 04:05:23 PM
Yesterday's New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/sports/ncaafootball/07rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/sports/ncaafootball/07rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball)

Maybe they should ask, why can Div II and III do it and not us?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2008, 04:48:33 PM
Quote from: old ends on December 07, 2008, 04:05:23 PM
Yesterday's New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/sports/ncaafootball/07rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/sports/ncaafootball/07rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball)

Maybe they should ask, why can Div II and III do it and not us?
Coach Teaff answered the reporter's question.

The inertia is maintained by:

The Football Coaches -- there is only one National Champion.  There are 16 bowl winners and another 6-8 of the bowl losers can point to the success of the season and to "next year" after the bowl loss.  Therefore annually there are only 5-7 dissatisfied coaches dealing with their fans and alumni.  This is to get the fans to accept mediocrity.  Why does a team only need "6 wins" in a 12-game season to be bowl eligible?

The Presidents -- who have not wanted to deal with this at the level of the NCAA.

The Bowls --

a)  Travel industry for that weekend.  We have not seen a decrease in the number of bowl games under this current system.  Every town that can find a corporate sponsor will invest in a Bowl. What is the likelihood that the bowls will thrive under the new system?  If it were a "slam dunk", then it would have been done. 

b)  Bowl sponsors -- corporate policy and "perks" are included in the bowl by the sponsors.  They have a sophisticated multi-year corporate strategy tied to the bowl contract.  Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl in Fort Worth, TX?

The Media --  Plenty of sports content for the Cable sports stations.  Do ESPN, ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, etc. really want the bidding war that will arise from this?  NBC is already having trouble selling (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hoOap2CM6A-ZomQXvuufwpBwv7lAD94MD3380) their complete allotment of 30-second Super Bowl ads?  We also hear how advertising revenue from the Olympics is sometimes not up to the pro formae.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 08, 2008, 12:15:21 AM
If preserving the Bowls were truly necessary, a 16-team playoff could support the top 15 bowl games, and the Poinsettia Bowls and Motor City Bowls would survive much as they are, featuring teams who have no chance at the national championship and that only fans of the participating schools care about. Division III playoffs and Bowls function side-by-side, it can be done.

In 16/15, each round could be a bowl game. Independence, Sun, et. al. could be early rounds, followed by Citrus and Cotton, followed by Orange, Fiesta, Rose.

I prefer having early rounds on site and hanging the bowls out to dry, but that's me.

Rhoden's column actually isn't bad. I almost never favor government getting involved in sports, but in tight economic times, pulling the tax-exempt status might be the right thing to do without the ultimatum. Or even if there weren't tight economic times.

Bottom line is people have to decide what's important. If crowning a national champion is more important than playing for fun, for money and preserving the bowls, then there are people smart enough to figure out how to make it profitable for a lot of cities, schools, media companies, etc.

If maintaining the status quo is really what they want, that's their prerogative. They might keep selling this bogus "national championship" crap, but I'm past the point where I'm no longer buying.

I've actually reached the point where I do not care, and I've enjoyed Division I-A football and atmospheres over the years. But I actually didn't know who won any of the championship games until I got into work on Sunday and saw it in the paper.

Rounds with playoffs are that much more compelling. Why waste an ounce of energy arguing over who should have got in and who was screwed when the powers that be know what they have to do to fix it.

I used this analogy elsewhere this week, but it's like having a friend who drinks too much. At some point you can't keep telling him he needs to stop, he just has to learn on his own. He knows what he has to do to fix himself, and you can't continue to support that lifestyle by enabling it.

I gave $0 and 0:00 this year to Division I-A football (OK, I watched the end of Texas-Texas Tech at the Riverwalk), and I'd like to maintain that until they either come to their senses, or admit they are playing just to play, and stop with the fake crowning of national champs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on December 08, 2008, 07:55:39 PM
And now that they have stretched the  bowl games out over a three  week period, whats the big deal... >:(   Money Money Money..... ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 09, 2008, 12:21:14 AM
Well here we go again.

Just thought I'd preserve my spoken piece so I can refer back to it when I inevitably need it again.

QuoteD3Keith Says:

December 9th, 2008 at 12:14 am e

QuoteSJF FAN wrote:
If you disagree with a view fine, if you don't like someone for their lack of bowing down to the MUC alter Ok, but to shut out someone completely on a web blog of all things though is pretty small on your part.

You know, if I hear one more person say that stupid [expletive] about bowing at the MUC altar ...

Stop trying to sound cool and tough. Man up and give respect where it is due.

Unlike such eminently hateable teams as the Yankees, who outspend nearly everybody else, or the Dallas Cowboys, who employ guys who run their mouths or run afoul of the law, Mount Union does things the way you wish your program did. And in fact, if St. John Fisher, Hobart, Ithaca or any of about 220 others did it 1/9th as well, we'd shower them with deserved praise, because that's what happens when you tell it like it is.

You don't have to like them or UW-W or UMHB et. al., but you should respect them. Otherwise you just make yourself look bad.

Jealousy is a stinky cologne, my brothers.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 14, 2008, 07:35:21 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 14, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.

Yeh, it has been nearly two years since they won, after all  :D

If UW-W repeats there will prolly be a "should the WIAC move up to Division II" thread to replace it.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bill McCabe on December 14, 2008, 08:01:33 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 08, 2008, 12:15:21 AM
If preserving the Bowls were truly necessary, a 16-team playoff could support the top 15 bowl games, and the Poinsettia Bowls and Motor City Bowls would survive much as they are, featuring teams who have no chance at the national championship and that only fans of the participating schools care about. Division III playoffs and Bowls function side-by-side, it can be done.

In 16/15, each round could be a bowl game. Independence, Sun, et. al. could be early rounds, followed by Citrus and Cotton, followed by Orange, Fiesta, Rose.

I prefer having early rounds on site and hanging the bowls out to dry, but that's me.

Rhoden's column actually isn't bad. I almost never favor government getting involved in sports, but in tight economic times, pulling the tax-exempt status might be the right thing to do without the ultimatum. Or even if there weren't tight economic times.

Bottom line is people have to decide what's important. If crowning a national champion is more important than playing for fun, for money and preserving the bowls, then there are people smart enough to figure out how to make it profitable for a lot of cities, schools, media companies, etc.

If maintaining the status quo is really what they want, that's their prerogative. They might keep selling this bogus "national championship" crap, but I'm past the point where I'm no longer buying.

I've actually reached the point where I do not care, and I've enjoyed Division I-A football and atmospheres over the years. But I actually didn't know who won any of the championship games until I got into work on Sunday and saw it in the paper.

Rounds with playoffs are that much more compelling. Why waste an ounce of energy arguing over who should have got in and who was screwed when the powers that be know what they have to do to fix it.

I used this analogy elsewhere this week, but it's like having a friend who drinks too much. At some point you can't keep telling him he needs to stop, he just has to learn on his own. He knows what he has to do to fix himself, and you can't continue to support that lifestyle by enabling it.

I gave $0 and 0:00 this year to Division I-A football (OK, I watched the end of Texas-Texas Tech at the Riverwalk), and I'd like to maintain that until they either come to their senses, or admit they are playing just to play, and stop with the fake crowning of national champs.

K-Mack, I agree with your thinking.  Do you think these same arguements were made when the NCAA basketball tournament expanded and relegated the NIT to secondary status?"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on December 15, 2008, 05:52:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 14, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.

I really don't see the point in that discussion.  Hobart ruled D3 men's lacrosse for 20 years and probably would have continued to if not for the NCAA basically penalizing D1 schools for playing D3 teams after the 94 season.  Back then Hobart pretty much only played the 3 game minimum to qualify for the D3 playoffs and the remainder of their 12 or so game schedule were D1 teams.

Given the possibility of playing an all D3 schedule or keeping long-standing rivalries with Cornell (100+ years) and Syracuse (90+ years) as well as newer ones with Georgetown not to mention Army, Navy, Bucknell and other Patriot League schools (Hobart had a brief stint in the PL in the late 90's/early 00's until we got the boot from that league b/c we were not a member school in other sports - I am sure the fact we won the title 4 out 5 or 6 seasons may have helped the other PL AD's to vote for our ouster, but either way) Hobart decided to make the jump.

I really don't see any benefit from MUC's standpoint to relinquish the mantle of D3 powerhouse without any pressure from the NCAA to do so. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on December 16, 2008, 12:12:16 AM
about as honest a parody of the BCS you're gonna get:

http://www.globalsportsfraternity.com/bcs/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
TGP,
Yeah, there are a lot of reasons why Mount Union going Division II didn't make sense, that thread explored them all. The ones I can remember is where would a school that small suddenly get the funding to start offering the number of scholarships needed to compete ... if not in football, then in ALL SPORTS they offer.

Also, as a member of the OAC they are an all-sports match with the other 9 schools in that conference ... Mount Union doesn't dominate other sports (that I know of), football is the anomaly, but that is a good conference in baseball, basketball, etc. from year-to-year. So it's rather fitting ... meanwhile, travel-wise, there isn't really a better fit in D2 for them (although Tiffin, Ashland, etc. play D2)

Basically it would cost a small school like that more than it could afford, and what would they gain? Proof that their football team can go 7-3 or win a playoff game?

Also, if they moved, they'd be required to take Kenyon's swimming program with them :)

In a decent article in the Milwaukee paper, there was this:

QuoteAfter Whitewater beat Mount Union, the New York Yankees of D3 football, Leipold let only the seniors make the celebrity appearances at the capitol and at halftime of UW and Marquette basketball games.

Funny he should mention that, since I usually go out of my way to NOT compare MUC to the Yankees. The Yankees, first off, haven't won since 2000, kinda hard to be a dynasty, and if playoff appearances make dynasties instead of championships, well there's a whole nother argument for the Braves, for St. Norbert/Curry, etc.

Also, I think the Yankees gain an advantage by having more resources than a lot of its opponents. Mount Union is probably average or below average in terms of physical and financial resources, so the comparison isn't really apt ... although they do have the resource of recruiting with their 9-titles, 11-Stagg Bowl body of work.

Anyway, we murder these topics this time of year ... might be time to examine the UW-W dynastic model.

We actually have a feature in the works on the both of them by the Great Ryan Tipps, so hopefully we'll all learn something.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: TGP on December 16, 2008, 12:12:16 AM
about as honest a parody of the BCS you're gonna get:

http://www.globalsportsfraternity.com/bcs/

Good stuff.

This was the one that cracked me up:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/89188-bcs-declares-germany-winner-of-world-war-ii
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:13:37 PM
I think Hobart/Hopkins lacrosse, RPI hockey, etc. is a slightly different argument than MUC ... and the backside is GTown and Hofstra and Dayton and Wagner having to move their football teams out of D3.

But for another day. Back to YIR writing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 17, 2008, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
Also, as a member of the OAC they are an all-sports match with the other 9 schools in that conference ... Mount Union doesn't dominate other sports (that I know of), football is the anomaly, but that is a good conference in baseball, basketball, etc. from year-to-year.

MUC's placement in OAC all sports standings (men):
07-08: 3rd
06-07: 2nd
05-06: 2nd
04-05: 5th

MUC placement in NACDA Directors Cub standings (m/f):
07-08: 52nd
06-07: 58th
05-06: 68th
04-05: not in top 100

So, as Keith points out, outside of football MUC is your basic fairly average D3 athletic program, certainly not D2-worthy as consistuted today. 




Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on December 17, 2008, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
We actually have a feature in the works on the both of them by the Great Ryan Tipps, so hopefully we'll all learn something.

I'm humbled.....  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: runyr on December 17, 2008, 11:13:10 PM
Quote from: TGP on December 16, 2008, 12:12:16 AM
about as honest a parody of the BCS you're gonna get:

http://www.globalsportsfraternity.com/bcs/
TGP, Thanks much.  Great stuff.  I laughed so hard I cried.   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 11:17:46 PM
Quote from: Ryan Tipps on December 17, 2008, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
We actually have a feature in the works on the both of them by the Great Ryan Tipps, so hopefully we'll all learn something.

I'm humbled.....  :)

I cased "great" with "hopefully" :)

The piece in question:
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2008/12/17
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: runyr on December 17, 2008, 11:24:21 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
TGP,
Yeah, there are a lot of reasons why Mount Union going Division II didn't make sense, that thread explored them all. The ones I can remember is where would a school that small suddenly get the funding to start offering the number of scholarships needed to compete ... if not in football, then in ALL SPORTS they offer.

Also, as a member of the OAC they are an all-sports match with the other 9 schools in that conference ... Mount Union doesn't dominate other sports (that I know of), football is the anomaly, but that is a good conference in baseball, basketball, etc. from year-to-year. So it's rather fitting ... meanwhile, travel-wise, there isn't really a better fit in D2 for them (although Tiffin, Ashland, etc. play D2)

Basically it would cost a small school like that more than it could afford, and what would they gain? Proof that their football team can go 7-3 or win a playoff game?

Also, if they moved, they'd be required to take Kenyon's swimming program with them :)

In a decent article in the Milwaukee paper, there was this:

QuoteAfter Whitewater beat Mount Union, the New York Yankees of D3 football, Leipold let only the seniors make the celebrity appearances at the capitol and at halftime of UW and Marquette basketball games.

Funny he should mention that, since I usually go out of my way to NOT compare MUC to the Yankees. The Yankees, first off, haven't won since 2000, kinda hard to be a dynasty, and if playoff appearances make dynasties instead of championships, well there's a whole nother argument for the Braves, for St. Norbert/Curry, etc.

Also, I think the Yankees gain an advantage by having more resources than a lot of its opponents. Mount Union is probably average or below average in terms of physical and financial resources, so the comparison isn't really apt ... although they do have the resource of recruiting with their 9-titles, 11-Stagg Bowl body of work.

Anyway, we murder these topics this time of year ... might be time to examine the UW-W dynastic model.

We actually have a feature in the works on the both of them by the Great Ryan Tipps, so hopefully we'll all learn something.

K-Mack,
That's the best explanation I've ever read on here answering the tired litany on Mount Union moving up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 11:52:17 PM
Thank you.

Always good to know that it's not useless rambling.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2008, 12:16:55 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 11:52:17 PM
Thank you.

Always good to know that it's not useless rambling.
That post might deserve a place in the FAQ.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 18, 2008, 12:18:21 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 11:17:46 PM
Quote from: Ryan Tipps on December 17, 2008, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 17, 2008, 03:10:54 PM
We actually have a feature in the works on the both of them by the Great Ryan Tipps, so hopefully we'll all learn something.

I'm humbled.....  :)

I cased "great" with "hopefully" :)

The piece in question:

... is being held until tomorrow. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on December 20, 2008, 04:49:37 PM
pat, keith, ryan, frank, et al -

congrats and thanks on delivering another great season of d3football.

my dad duties prevented me from listening to much of the game audio but what i heard was well done.

guess it's time to turn in for the winter. 

happy holidays!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 21, 2008, 03:27:15 PM
TGP,
Thanks.

The first half of the year in review was posted in the postgame package yesterday, in case anyone out there needs to slowly wean himself off of D3 football instead of making a cold break into the offseason.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 21, 2008, 03:45:47 PM
Thanks!

Looking forward to Part 2.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PBR... on December 22, 2008, 12:40:54 PM
folks pbr thinks is going to be a very bumpy road for our beloved d3 schools in this economy. this article states how bad things are and most likely will get worse before better....


WASHINGTON, Dec. 22 (UPI) -- Many private educational institutions throughout
the United States are very concerned about a recent drop in enrollment numbers,
survey results indicate.
The National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities said two-
thirds of 371 private institutions it surveyed reported concerns about a nearly
30-percent drop in regular enrollment applications this year compared with this
time in 2007, The New York Times reported Monday.
Admissions officers have suggested the decline has been caused by students
focusing on cheaper state universities, delaying college plans or simply
limiting the number of universities to which they apply.
Whatever the cause, some officials at private colleges told the Times they are
concerned for the future.
"By this time last year, we had three-quarters of all our applications,"
Admissions Dean Derek Gueldenzoph of Minnesota's St. Olaf College. "The
deadline's Jan. 15. If what we've got now is three-quarters of what we're going
to get, we're in big trouble."
"This is a time when schools like ours, private liberal arts colleges that
don't have a big name, are in a potentially dangerous realm," Stephen
MacDonald, president of Pennsylvania's Lebanon Valley College, told the
newspaper.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 22, 2008, 01:14:42 PM
Additionally the value of endowments are down, and the income which they produce will, if it has not already, decline.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 22, 2008, 01:39:42 PM
Keith:  Part 1 was well done as always!    Looking forward to Part 2.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 22, 2008, 02:53:42 PM
The NAIA school my nephew has been coaching at is in financial trouble, they don't have a large endowment and enrollment is down.  His position is being eliminated at the end of the school year along with many others.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 22, 2008, 10:31:43 PM
With regard to the drop in applications and endowments ... perhaps it's a market-driven correction of the now-outrageous cost of attending (schools that were in the teens in the 90s are over $30,000), not unlike the housing market correction.

Does it mean if the pool of applicants is smaller that the schools will take fewer students, or take the same number, with worse credentials?

Will some choose the former and some the latter, to survive?

And from the perspective of a student who maybe didn't excel, is it a great time for a buy-low bargain? (Aw yeah, my 1100 is getting me into Amherst, baby!!!)

I have a lot of questions and not many answers, sorry.

Thanks for the acknowledgement, hscoach.

Just did my Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year vote. I know a little something about Division II (the D2/D3 committee is combined), but I always feel weird voting for their coach for my reasons.

D3 was a pretty easy decision.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 23, 2008, 06:38:12 PM
Found this looking for a quote to add to my sig line  ;D

I had missed this response to a Mount Union post I made earlier in the postseason, and thought it was only fair to put it here, for those who had been following along, and for me ... since is the only thread I am likely to go back and read, and is likely to still exist, at some point in the future.

QuoteD3Keith Says:
November 17th, 2008 at 12:34 am


This is more general, but since you mentioned it last ...

"even if it doesn't bow to the altar that is Mt Union Football."

What's with the Mount Union hate from the LL/E8? I know it's not everyone, and it's mostly been the past couple seasons.

I get the idea of rooting against the favorite and going for the underdog. I get that Pat and I are perhaps quick to assume Mount Union is going to get to a certain round of the postseason without giving it much thought, but trust it's because we've seen this movie before and we know how it ends.

What I don't get about the snide comments about Mount Union — and as you all know, not only am I NOT a Mount Union guy, I should be rooting against them this week more than anyone — is that they are not like the Yankees or Cowboys, teams that are hateable because they are good, but also because of the way they do business.

Mount Union does business the exact same way the majority of the rest of us do, just better. If anyone in D3 plays with a stacked deck, it's the low-tuition state schools with 10,000 students in the WIAC and NJAC. And CNU.

The thing about Mount Union, love them or hate them, is you have to respect them. They conduct themselves more or less with class, they play football in a way that deserves to be emulated, and at least within the program — fans might be an exception at times — they emphasize having respect for the opponent. They aren't flawless or unbeatable, but they do about as good as job as one can expect within the Division III football framework.

It's the model program. If I bow at the altar, it's because they earned it, fair and square. I would do the same for any other Division III program that accomplishes a fraction of what Mount Union has.

Pat Coleman Says:
November 17th, 2008 at 12:37 am


Yes, Keith, talk about gross generalizations.

labart96 Says:
November 17th, 2008 at 1:13 am


I think you guys (pat, ralph, and keith) are missing the point. I can't speak for all the "East" fans/alums, but context is extremely difficult to convey via written words vs face to face conversion, namely:

we don't "hate" MUC - we actually do respect them and wish our teams were more like them (ie. they are the standard now - and some teams like Union, IC, etc were the same 20 some years ago)

we may be jealous, envious, etc, but from an outsider POV (esp. via written media - not saying it's how you are guys are but how it can be interpreted w/o context) is that you kiss the *** of the current dynasty program for the benefit for your business (this is not a fault, but a reality and tougher "skin" as journalists should prepare you accordingly. Problem here is once again context, ie since it's D3 it takes a more personal tone so when that gets called into question we react with a defensive posture).

re the WIAC and CNU - it's not even close:

there are 100s, if not 200-300s of eastern (NE, NY, etc) schools with total cost of attendance over 35-40k annually. i'd be interested in seeing a similar list from the midwestern US. that's not a fair statement and one that leads "east" fans into the "sour grapes" mode (although we've got no beef vs. the Oxy, CLU's SCIAC and probably TX teams of the nation...)

re: ralph's comments that:

The inclusion of Administrative Regions in the definition of "Regional Games" has expanded the options for non-conference play for Liberty League teams in NY and PA to include every Presidents AC team except Thomas More and Bethany and the Centennial Conference teams except JHU and McDaniel. For WPI, they pick up Wesley, JHU, McDaniel, Frostburg and Salisbury.

I'd argue until now that only Pat, Keith and Ralph (and maybe a handful of VERY informed others) knew that fact.

So it should not become a "surprise" to the crew here that the fan base is still learning the rules of the game.

Have a heart and not be so judgmental of the group that's driving the traffic and interest into the game and site you've so graciously provided.

If anything, I'd say the opposite would be preferred, ie, to correct, but not get defensive (ie, easy for me to say since I haven't been hawking d3football.com or dealing with crazed zealots for the past 9 years).

not sure if this makes any sense, but i appreciate the format the opportunity to debate.

i guess i really have become my voted moniker from the LL boards.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 24, 2008, 01:16:12 PM
So this is from the Stagg Bowl 36 thread. MUCnashvegas01 is generally a pretty wise poster, and not to pick on him, but I strongly disagree with this. Thought I would throw it here since the blog string is a few days old and no one would ever see it there (as opposed to four of you here):

QuoteThat and a prevent like defense Mount was playing late in the game was crazy. To me, the prevent defense "prevents" you from winning games.

To me that's something people say because they've heard other people say it.

In the case of Mount Union the other day, it couldn't be further from the truth. Playing a loose defense and coming up and making tackles caused Whitewater to burn all their time trying to catch up, and once MUC got the onside kick, they were out of time.

The alternative would be to, what? Play press-man coverage and have someone get beat for a 60-yard TD so Whitewater could score in 30 seconds rather than six minutes?

What people describe as the 'prevent' is a misnomer anyway. Prevent is like five DBs 20 yards off the ball defending the hail mary at the end of the half. Really what people claim doesn't win games is the defense that gives up the short flat and quick outs in lieu of playing the 10-12 yard sideline area and all the deep middle zones. In theory, if you give up yards in three-, five- and seven-yard chunks and tackle well, it will take a team much longer to make a dent in your lead than if they can squeeze a big play or two in there.

Mount Union executed this to perfection the other day, protecting their 31-13 lead well enough to get out of there with the win and the national championship.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KitchenSink on December 25, 2008, 09:29:14 AM
My thoughts about the quote unquote Prevent is that it can build up the pressure - for MUC, there was great pressure on that onside kick.  If a funny bounce had gone to UWW, their offense was rolling and chances are strong they would have at least gotten into the red zone, and maybe score and steal that game.  Relying on one play to salve over your approach has always seemed dangerous to me.

I have always beleived that defenses have to be aggressive to be successful, especially in the playoffs.  You ease up even just slightly in the 4th quarter, and you can give up momentum.  A defense getting predictable can be attacked more effectively.  That's why I like to see a blitz mixed in those situations - sure, that brings a little risk but that can also lead to an offensive mistake and a turnover.  And then it's Goodnight Irene.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 25, 2008, 10:06:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 24, 2008, 01:16:12 PM
So this is from the Stagg Bowl 36 thread. MUCnashvegas01 is generally a pretty wise poster, and not to pick on him, but I strongly disagree with this. Thought I would throw it here since the blog string is a few days old and no one would ever see it there (as opposed to four of you here):

QuoteThat and a prevent like defense Mount was playing late in the game was crazy. To me, the prevent defense "prevents" you from winning games.

To me that's something people say because they've heard other people say it.

In the case of Mount Union the other day, it couldn't be further from the truth. Playing a loose defense and coming up and making tackles caused Whitewater to burn all their time trying to catch up, and once MUC got the onside kick, they were out of time.

The alternative would be to, what? Play press-man coverage and have someone get beat for a 60-yard TD so Whitewater could score in 30 seconds rather than six minutes?

What people describe as the 'prevent' is a misnomer anyway. Prevent is like five DBs 20 yards off the ball defending the hail mary at the end of the half. Really what people claim doesn't win games is the defense that gives up the short flat and quick outs in lieu of playing the 10-12 yard sideline area and all the deep middle zones. In theory, if you give up yards in three-, five- and seven-yard chunks and tackle well, it will take a team much longer to make a dent in your lead than if they can squeeze a big play or two in there.

Mount Union executed this to perfection the other day, protecting their 31-13 lead well enough to get out of there with the win and the national championship.

Thoughts?
Great explanation...

There are enough times when the prevent "prevents" victory that the "theory and proper execution" is forgotten or not recognized.

Just imagine...MUC only wins the Stagg because of the big plays.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: section13raiderfan on December 25, 2008, 09:31:12 PM
Substitute the word concessionary for the word prevent to describe the loose zone defense. I still maintain that it backfires on you more times than not. But then again LK has 10 National Titles and I dont have any. MUC gave WWW too large of a cushion in my opinion. After the catch the receiver had time and room to make the defender miss the tackle and gain extra yardage. It frustrates me as a fan watching the game. And if I were the defender it would frustrate me as well.  Still I cant argue with the outcome.....this time. When I think of the prevent defense the MUC/MHB game comes to mind.  Last play of the game...no rush....Hail Mary.....MHB wins the jump ball and the game.  My absolute worst memory during MUCs historic run.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 25, 2008, 10:59:20 PM
It wasn't on the last play of the game. Mount Union had three plays or so after the ensuing kickoff.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 26, 2008, 12:07:17 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 24, 2008, 01:16:12 PM
In theory, if you give up yards in three-, five- and seven-yard chunks and tackle well, it will take a team much longer to make a dent in your lead than if they can squeeze a big play or two in there.




The key is tackling well.  The problem is so many programs on every level don't tackle well.  The NFL is a great example.  Teams that tackle well always seem to be in the game, even when the other team has more talent.  Too many players want to either light someone up, try to strip the ball or arm tackle rather than use good form and technique.  I was always taught, head up, knees bent, drive into the ball carrier and wrap up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 26, 2008, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 24, 2008, 01:16:12 PM
So this is from the Stagg Bowl 36 thread. MUCnashvegas01 is generally a pretty wise poster, and not to pick on him, but I strongly disagree with this. Thought I would throw it here since the blog string is a few days old and no one would ever see it there (as opposed to four of you here):

QuoteThat and a prevent like defense Mount was playing late in the game was crazy. To me, the prevent defense "prevents" you from winning games.

To me that's something people say because they've heard other people say it.

In the case of Mount Union the other day, it couldn't be further from the truth. Playing a loose defense and coming up and making tackles caused Whitewater to burn all their time trying to catch up, and once MUC got the onside kick, they were out of time.

The alternative would be to, what? Play press-man coverage and have someone get beat for a 60-yard TD so Whitewater could score in 30 seconds rather than six minutes?

What people describe as the 'prevent' is a misnomer anyway. Prevent is like five DBs 20 yards off the ball defending the hail mary at the end of the half. Really what people claim doesn't win games is the defense that gives up the short flat and quick outs in lieu of playing the 10-12 yard sideline area and all the deep middle zones. In theory, if you give up yards in three-, five- and seven-yard chunks and tackle well, it will take a team much longer to make a dent in your lead than if they can squeeze a big play or two in there.

Mount Union executed this to perfection the other day, protecting their 31-13 lead well enough to get out of there with the win and the national championship.

Thoughts?

Well said and I agree.  Giving up a huge play would have been killer.  Making WWW trade time for yardage was the proper call. 

And I wouldn't classify Mount's defense in the 4th as the "prevent" either.   To me, the prevent is what you play against the hail-mary.  Mount was just playing conservative in that situation, which IMHO was the right call and is always the right call up 31-13 in the 4th quarter against a team that is a legit threat, specially one that runs the ball as well as Whitewater does. 

During those last couple drives, Ric and I were discussing on the air that it seemed like Mount was playing softer than normal to make the run look more enticing to Whitewater.   And we were very surprised that Whitewater kept running ball and thereby running the clock.  The soft zone lessens the chance of a running play going for big yardage as well as eliminating the big play thru the air too. 

So the conservative defense worked perfectly.  It took away the deep passes, eliminated a runningback from breaking a big one and made Whitewater burn the entire 4th quarter clock on two long drives.

Playing with a 3 score lead afforded Mount this luxury.  If it would have been only a 1 score game, you'd have seen Mount blitz MORE than normal in an effort to make the big play defensively or to force a mistake.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 26, 2008, 07:07:43 PM
Gainesville TX State School vs Grapevine Faith HS (http://www.star-telegram.com/281/story/1112890.html).

This story has been posted elsewhere, and Rick Reilly had it in SI.

Here is the Fort Worth Star-Telegram story.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 26, 2008, 07:16:45 PM
Quote from: hscoach on December 26, 2008, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 24, 2008, 01:16:12 PM
So this is from the Stagg Bowl 36 thread. MUCnashvegas01 is generally a pretty wise poster, and not to pick on him, but I strongly disagree with this. Thought I would throw it here since the blog string is a few days old and no one would ever see it there (as opposed to four of you here):

QuoteThat and a prevent like defense Mount was playing late in the game was crazy. To me, the prevent defense "prevents" you from winning games.

To me that's something people say because they've heard other people say it.

In the case of Mount Union the other day, it couldn't be further from the truth. Playing a loose defense and coming up and making tackles caused Whitewater to burn all their time trying to catch up, and once MUC got the onside kick, they were out of time.

The alternative would be to, what? Play press-man coverage and have someone get beat for a 60-yard TD so Whitewater could score in 30 seconds rather than six minutes?

What people describe as the 'prevent' is a misnomer anyway. Prevent is like five DBs 20 yards off the ball defending the hail mary at the end of the half. Really what people claim doesn't win games is the defense that gives up the short flat and quick outs in lieu of playing the 10-12 yard sideline area and all the deep middle zones. In theory, if you give up yards in three-, five- and seven-yard chunks and tackle well, it will take a team much longer to make a dent in your lead than if they can squeeze a big play or two in there.

Mount Union executed this to perfection the other day, protecting their 31-13 lead well enough to get out of there with the win and the national championship.

Thoughts?

Well said and I agree.  Giving up a huge play would have been killer.  Making WWW trade time for yardage was the proper call. 

And I wouldn't classify Mount's defense in the 4th as the "prevent" either.   To me, the prevent is what you play against the hail-mary.  Mount was just playing conservative in that situation, which IMHO was the right call and is always the right call up 31-13 in the 4th quarter against a team that is a legit threat, specially one that runs the ball as well as Whitewater does. 

During those last couple drives, Ric and I were discussing on the air that it seemed like Mount was playing softer than normal to make the run look more enticing to Whitewater.   And we were very surprised that Whitewater kept running ball and thereby running the clock.  The soft zone lessens the chance of a running play going for big yardage as well as eliminating the big play thru the air too. 

So the conservative defense worked perfectly.  It took away the deep passes, eliminated a runningback from breaking a big one and made Whitewater burn the entire 4th quarter clock on two long drives.

Playing with a 3 score lead afforded Mount this luxury.  If it would have been only a 1 score game, you'd have seen Mount blitz MORE than normal in an effort to make the big play defensively or to force a mistake.

So in hindsight UWW would have been better off throwing quick 5 yard out patterns instead of running the ball?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 26, 2008, 07:19:19 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 26, 2008, 07:07:43 PM
Gainesville TX State School vs Grapevine Faith HS (http://www.star-telegram.com/281/story/1112890.html).

This story has been posted elsewhere, and Rick Reilly had it in SI.

Here is the Fort Worth Star-Telegram story.

Enjoy!

Ralph, very inspiring story - thanks.

Can you get McMurry to recruit #7? ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 26, 2008, 07:47:43 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 26, 2008, 07:16:45 PM
So in hindsight UWW would have been better off throwing quick 5 yard out patterns instead of running the ball?

Those routes were open almost ALL day.  I would have thought that UWW would have tried to run it earlier, then passed more when they got down and had to catch up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 27, 2008, 12:30:23 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 26, 2008, 07:19:19 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 26, 2008, 07:07:43 PM
Gainesville TX State School vs Grapevine Faith HS (http://www.star-telegram.com/281/story/1112890.html).

This story has been posted elsewhere, and Rick Reilly had it in SI.

Here is the Fort Worth Star-Telegram story.

Enjoy!

Ralph, very inspiring story - thanks.

Can you get McMurry to recruit #7? ;)
That level of high school football in tough to judge in the Texas.

I believe that Faith and GSS are in TAPPS, "Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools", which is different from the University Interscholastic League (UIL) where the "other 1000" high schools play.

I think that there are several schools in D-III and the NAIA and JUCO's that would give him a chance.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 28, 2008, 11:43:49 PM
Quote from: section13raiderfan on December 25, 2008, 09:31:12 PMI still maintain that it backfires on you more times than not.

I disagree. Most people remember the times it doesn't work and see the times it does work as "they were supposed to win" business as usual, so it doesn't stand out.

Also, when a team is passing they are going to hit some plays whether you play tight coverage or loose, but you're less likely to give up a big play if there are more people in the secondary to make tackles and less spots left open by blitzing defenders.

Anyway, I thought you all added something to the discussion in your responses, and I mostly stick by how I wrote my stance originally, so I won't drag it out much longer.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: section13raiderfan on January 03, 2009, 09:08:23 PM
Case in point ...Penn State trying to run a loose zone defense with drops in the neighborhood of 7 to 8 yards against USC.  USC just makes em look silly. Maybe Penn State was never gonna win this one from the getgo, but that defense made it seem hopeless altogether. I call that philosophy the " slow rape " defense. I prefer to at least  try to resist a little more than that. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on January 03, 2009, 09:12:52 PM
I thought the Cardinals did a nice job tonight of playing loose in the middle but not letting Atlanta get behind them or to the sidelines in the 4th quarter.  They only gave up the one big play that I saw.  I thought they had a good defensive game plan for Atlanta today, definitely used the defense to eat up some clock.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on January 07, 2009, 10:48:55 AM
Keith, where is ATN Part 2?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Outsider14 on January 08, 2009, 12:51:58 PM
it was easy to miss, as it was 2 bad teams playing football, but the feat was still significant:

St. Vincent College @ Gallaudet in Week 2. Both teams were 2nd year programs (officially), with a shared history of having SVC--and former Gallaudet--Head Coach Bob Colbert 35 years apart. Gallaudet was up 20-3 at halftime and the Bearcats came back to win 23-22 for their first win in 46 years. The game ended wildly on a recovered fumble inside Bearcat territory
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2009, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: hscoach on January 07, 2009, 10:48:55 AMKeith, where is ATN Part 2?

Since you asked, you can be one of the first to see it. It's not promo'd on the front page yet, but it's up on the Around the Nation page.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation

Thanks for your interest.

The truth is, I got a lot of it done during the playoffs while working on Part 1, and I figured it would be easy to finish up by Dec. 31. But then I squandered just about every opportunity to work on it between Christmas and New Year's. Couple that with the way I notice new items as I research planned ones, and it kept growing and growing.

Pat used his mad editing skills to make it fit.

Enjoy!

(explaining because you aren't the only one to have asked. I apologize for blowing my self-imposed deadline)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 08, 2009, 04:55:47 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on January 08, 2009, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: hscoach on January 07, 2009, 10:48:55 AMKeith, where is ATN Part 2?

Since you asked, you can be one of the first to see it. It's not promo'd on the front page yet, but it's up on the Around the Nation page.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation

Thanks for your interest.

The truth is, I got a lot of it done during the playoffs while working on Part 1, and I figured it would be easy to finish up by Dec. 31. But then I squandered just about every opportunity to work on it between Christmas and New Year's. Couple that with the way I notice new items as I research planned ones, and it kept growing and growing.

Pat used his mad editing skills to make it fit.


Enjoy!

(explaining because you aren't the only one to have asked. I apologize for blowing my self-imposed deadline)
Past edited out good stuff that you wrote? :o

Man, I want to read part 3, some time in the spring!

I need my ATN K-Mack fix!  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 08, 2009, 04:59:40 PM
If that piece of work can't hold people until football season, I might have bitten off more than I can chew in terms of building a needy audience :)

Appreciate your patience though.

And yeah, since Pat did some of the captions and editing, I'm learning stuff by reading it too! :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on January 09, 2009, 12:39:50 AM
Great piece on ATN2 Kmack. +k for that to you, Pat and the team! nice and long with lots of content.

I'll throw my vote for top 5 teams in 09 for North Central. The team that dominated #5 Wheaton returns virtually everybody next year with what should certainly be a better team than this year and likely the best team NCC has ever had. They should be the prohibitive favorite to win the CCIW. Wheaton will be great on offense, returning 8 starters including Norris and Gingg but they have to replace 9 starters on defense.

I would pick:

UWW
Mt Union
UMHB
North Central
Willamette
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on January 09, 2009, 09:49:14 AM
K-Mack

So as it turnsout you put the jinx on Wesley  ;).... You will now be forever tied to the SI front page jinsx. ;D

Great job on part two!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on January 09, 2009, 12:06:07 PM
Keith,

As always, nice job on the article.

And yes, I am very needy.  But I prefer blondes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: reality check on January 09, 2009, 07:38:56 PM
Quote from: hscoach on January 09, 2009, 12:06:07 PM
Keith,

As always, nice job on the article.

And yes, I am very needy.  But I prefer blondes.

You'd be out of your league getting Keith, let alone a blonde. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 11, 2009, 10:48:21 PM
Quote from: USee on January 09, 2009, 12:39:50 AM
Great piece on ATN2 Kmack. +k for that to you, Pat and the team! nice and long with lots of content.

I'll throw my vote for top 5 teams in 09 for North Central. The team that dominated #5 Wheaton returns virtually everybody next year with what should certainly be a better team than this year and likely the best team NCC has ever had. They should be the prohibitive favorite to win the CCIW. Wheaton will be great on offense, returning 8 starters including Norris and Gingg but they have to replace 9 starters on defense.

I would pick:

UWW
Mt Union
UMHB
North Central
Willamette

That's not bad. I was really struggling to think of a team that brough enough key components back, and Wartburg with Yordi, etc. was all I could come up with off the top. North Central might not be a bad one.

I thought they were really good this year though, the Franklin loss surprised me. Although Franklin was darn good too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on January 11, 2009, 11:33:01 PM
And to the guy who took offense to me saying UW-W sorta-kinda outplayed Mount Union but didn't get points out of their drives and therefore didn't play a better game ... I thought the Giants sorta-kinda outplayed the Eagles today but didn't get enough points out of their drives (even missed two FGs) and didn't play a better game. But the Giants (and UW-W) drove the ball and had their opportunities.

Anyway ... thought I'd share.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 14, 2009, 10:26:44 AM
The same could be said for the Titans ... but when you keep turning the ball over in the red zone it doesn't matter how many yards you gained, the Ravens played a better game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Outsider14 on January 14, 2009, 03:28:59 PM
another stellar article. keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tmerton on January 16, 2009, 10:14:29 AM
Nice article about the AFCA convention; mentions Frosty Westerling and John Gagliardi, among others.

http://football.victorysportsnetwork.com/article.php?articleID=8999 (http://football.victorysportsnetwork.com/article.php?articleID=8999)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on February 17, 2009, 03:55:16 PM
Where's K-Mack? Haven't seen any posts from him for a while. I hope everything is okay. Hopefully he's just taking a break or something.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 24, 2009, 11:03:51 PM
Quote from: Hawks88 on February 17, 2009, 03:55:16 PM
Where's K-Mack? Haven't seen any posts from him for a while. I hope everything is okay. Hopefully he's just taking a break or something.

Yeah man. I try to take care of business, talk to my wife and raise my children in the offseason so I can resume ignoring all that stuff once football starts back up. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on March 02, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on February 24, 2009, 11:03:51 PM
Yeah man. I try to take care of business, talk to my wife and raise my children in the offseason so I can resume ignoring all that stuff once football starts back up. :)

After 17 years of marriage, my wife likes football season for the simple reason that it makes me too busy to get in her way. 

And pants too. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 30, 2009, 03:41:17 PM
Quote from: hscoach on March 02, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on February 24, 2009, 11:03:51 PM
Yeah man. I try to take care of business, talk to my wife and raise my children in the offseason so I can resume ignoring all that stuff once football starts back up. :)

After 17 years of marriage, my wife likes football season for the simple reason that it makes me too busy to get in her way. 

And pants too. ;)

Hel-LO!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 30, 2009, 03:42:23 PM
To whom it may concern,

New posts on the Parents With Children Looking to play in College (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4015.90) thread, as well as D3 vs. NAIA and the decals, oh my! one ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on March 30, 2009, 03:48:36 PM
Nice reference material from Ryan Wood of Active.com (http://www.active.com/football/Articles/Crunching_the_Numbers__Football_Scholarships_24402.htm):

(and if I don't post it here, it's going to be a much harder reference for me to find when needed :) )

The short of it is a reminder that not everyone who plays scholarship football can offer full scholarships.

Here's an excerpt:

FBS programs are allowed 85 scholarships on its roster at any given time, and generally can sign up to 25 players per year. All 85 scholarships are full rides. There are no partial scholarships given in FBS football.

FCS schools have 63 scholarships to be distributed, and up to 30 incoming players each year can be given aid.

Division II programs have 36 scholarships to be distributed, though some conferences don't allow their schools to have that many. Football scholarships at Division-II institutions can be divided among as many players as a program wishes. Most Division-II players are on partial scholarships.

There are no athletic scholarships in Division III athletics. Though there's no chance of getting a football scholarship at a Division III school, it is possible to receive an academic scholarship or a need-based grant that can help financially while you play football.

NAIA football programs are permitted 24 scholarships to be spread out in any way.

NJCAA programs are permitted 85 scholarships.

It's also a reference as to how many schools are in each classification.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on June 04, 2009, 12:50:52 PM
Wildcat11 and Catdomealumni.com's blog (ADvantage Catdome) have a real treat for everyone today.  I just posted up our latest Red and Purple Interview and our subject is D3football.com's very own Pat Coleman.  Great read on some of the sites backstory and you'll get PC's view and thoughs on various topics.

ADvantage Catdome: Red and Purple Interview: D3Sports.com's Pat Coleman (http://catdomealumni.blogspot.com)
Title: Eastern Collegiate Football Conference in waiting period for automatic bid???
Post by: jmccloskey on June 13, 2009, 12:51:33 AM
They are, how's that possible?

Last time I checked, the NCAA bylaws STILL prohibited new single sport conferences from EVER becoming eligible for automatic bids in the NCAA tournament.  Since the ECFC is most certainly a football only conference, how are they getting exempted for that prohibition?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on June 13, 2009, 01:27:37 AM
They changed the bylaws.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 07, 2009, 11:42:14 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on June 04, 2009, 12:50:52 PM
Wildcat11 and Catdomealumni.com's blog (ADvantage Catdome) have a real treat for everyone today.  I just posted up our latest Red and Purple Interview and our subject is D3football.com's very own Pat Coleman.  Great read on some of the sites backstory and you'll get PC's view and thoughs on various topics.

ADvantage Catdome: Red and Purple Interview: D3Sports.com's Pat Coleman (http://catdomealumni.blogspot.com)

June is slow news month, eh?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on July 08, 2009, 07:55:11 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 07, 2009, 11:42:14 PM

June is slow news month, eh?
K-Mack lives !!!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Cru Info on July 14, 2009, 04:35:23 PM
ARE YOU READY 4 SOME FOOTBALL?
UMHB CRUSADER  FOOTBALL!!!!
GOT MY BAGS PACKED AND I'M HEADED FOR THE DOOR
GOIN' TO CRU COUNTRY THIS FALL!!!!

COACH PETE AND THE CRU  ROADDOGS WILL BE TRAVELING TO BETHANY, OKLAHOMA TO WEATHER THE CRIMSON STORM LOOKING FOR THE PROGRAM'S  100TH WIN!!!  SEPTEMBER 12th AT 6:00 PM SOUTHERN NAZARENE  AND THE CRU!!!

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on July 14, 2009, 09:06:00 PM
Yikes.  I think someone needs to cut back on the coffee.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Cru Info on July 14, 2009, 09:59:34 PM
Quote from: HScoach on July 14, 2009, 09:06:00 PM
Yikes.  I think someone needs to cut back on the coffee.

LOL, would you like to drink my next cup? I'll put some Crusader Sugar in it for you!!!!
It's almost football season, I'm sorry, I can't help it!!!

Whooooo!!!!  Go CRU!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 15, 2009, 01:12:28 PM
Hey,
so not sure where we usually talk about conference movement, usually in the Pool B thread I guess, but was curious to hear how Wesley likes the Salisbury/Frostburg move.

I always thought Frostburg would fit with the PAC and Wesley/Salisbury should go E8, but maybe they didn't want a superleague, or Wesley has other ideas.

Maybe I should read the ACFC board first ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 25, 2009, 09:51:44 PM
So much D3 representation here: GQ's America's 25 Douchiest Colleges (http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_10779)

No. 23!

P.S. Kickoff '09 is out. In case you hadn't heard.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 25, 2009, 10:07:46 PM
Created a topic to discuss Kickoff '09 outside its walls.

Feel free to chime in with comments, complaints, kudos or suggestions for next year right here. We ARE listening.

Kickoff '09: What people are saying (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6529.0)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on August 25, 2009, 11:39:36 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 25, 2009, 09:51:44 PM
So much D3 representation here: GQ's America's 25 Douchiest Colleges (http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_10779)

No. 23!


Hahahahaha, this link was hilarious! And Roanoke got a nod in the No. 23 blurb :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on August 26, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
Now that this little Kickoff '09 thing is out of the way, K-Mack would like to discuss the much ballyhooed-but-never-follow-throughed "ATN and the LLPP go to a game"

Would probably be best if you made suggestions on the ATN thread, as I work way too much to stay current here. :)

Gro et al will push for Shoeapalooza 09 but TGP would recommend Oct 10 - Hobart v. Union.  Word on the street is that Frank Rossi has ended his hold out and signed a one year deal to continue calling U games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on August 27, 2009, 11:16:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 25, 2009, 09:51:44 PM
So much D3 representation here: GQ's America's 25 Douchiest Colleges (http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_10779)

No. 23!

P.S. Kickoff '09 is out. In case you hadn't heard.

K-Mack, I was kinda surprised you provided the link with your alma mater in the list, but in all honesty I was even more surprised to NOT find mine. I would have figured the all male thing to be too tempting a target.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dewcrew88 on August 27, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: TGP on August 26, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
Now that this little Kickoff '09 thing is out of the way, K-Mack would like to discuss the much ballyhooed-but-never-follow-throughed "ATN and the LLPP go to a game"

Would probably be best if you made suggestions on the ATN thread, as I work way too much to stay current here. :)

Gro et al will push for Shoeapalooza 09 but TGP would recommend Oct 10 - Hobart v. Union.  Word on the street is that Frank Rossi has ended his hold out and signed a one year deal to continue calling U games.

I still vote the Shoes game. A sight nearly unmatched throughout the d3 landscape.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on August 27, 2009, 02:28:42 PM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on August 27, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: TGP on August 26, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
Now that this little Kickoff '09 thing is out of the way, K-Mack would like to discuss the much ballyhooed-but-never-follow-throughed "ATN and the LLPP go to a game"

Would probably be best if you made suggestions on the ATN thread, as I work way too much to stay current here. :)

Gro et al will push for Shoeapalooza 09 but TGP would recommend Oct 10 - Hobart v. Union.  Word on the street is that Frank Rossi has ended his hold out and signed a one year deal to continue calling U games.

I still vote the Shoes game. A sight nearly unmatched throughout the d3 landscape.

Nothing can top Slide Rules v Sweater Vests and Cabernet.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 28, 2009, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on August 27, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: TGP on August 26, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
Now that this little Kickoff '09 thing is out of the way, K-Mack would like to discuss the much ballyhooed-but-never-follow-throughed "ATN and the LLPP go to a game"

Would probably be best if you made suggestions on the ATN thread, as I work way too much to stay current here. :)

Gro et al will push for Shoeapalooza 09 but TGP would recommend Oct 10 - Hobart v. Union.  Word on the street is that Frank Rossi has ended his hold out and signed a one year deal to continue calling U games.

I still vote the Shoes game. A sight nearly unmatched throughout the d3 landscape.

I'll be the judge of that! :)

I had heard the same thing about Rossi. On facebook, perhaps!?!

I still wish I had gone to that Rochester-area day/night doubleheader two seasons ago. I wonder (aloud) if that's on again this year. What was it, like Brockport and somebody (Cortland?) during the day and SJF/Rochester at night?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 28, 2009, 11:22:42 AM
Quote from: HSCTiger74 on August 27, 2009, 11:16:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 25, 2009, 09:51:44 PM
So much D3 representation here: GQ's America's 25 Douchiest Colleges (http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_10779)

No. 23!

P.S. Kickoff '09 is out. In case you hadn't heard.

K-Mack, I was kinda surprised you provided the link with your alma mater in the list, but in all honesty I was even more surprised to NOT find mine. I would have figured the all male thing to be too tempting a target.

Yeah, all men is a layup. H-SC and Wabash (and sorta-kinda St. John's) have probably heard 'em all before.

I didn't really get where they got our capsule from, the U.Va. blue blazer stuff was more fitting for R-MC IMHO, but I'll take it. Any pub is good pub!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 28, 2009, 11:23:34 AM
Besides, I bet W&L is douchier than the rest of the ODAC combined :)

Where are my friends from W&L? :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: John McGraw on August 28, 2009, 11:47:44 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 28, 2009, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on August 27, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: TGP on August 26, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
Now that this little Kickoff '09 thing is out of the way, K-Mack would like to discuss the much ballyhooed-but-never-follow-throughed "ATN and the LLPP go to a game"

Would probably be best if you made suggestions on the ATN thread, as I work way too much to stay current here. :)

Gro et al will push for Shoeapalooza 09 but TGP would recommend Oct 10 - Hobart v. Union.  Word on the street is that Frank Rossi has ended his hold out and signed a one year deal to continue calling U games.

I still vote the Shoes game. A sight nearly unmatched throughout the d3 landscape.

I'll be the judge of that! :)

I had heard the same thing about Rossi. On facebook, perhaps!?!

I still wish I had gone to that Rochester-area day/night doubleheader two seasons ago. I wonder (aloud) if that's on again this year. What was it, like Brockport and somebody (Cortland?) during the day and SJF/Rochester at night?

Couple different options actually that day. You've got Fisher against Rochester under the lights at 7:00 pm in the Courage Bowl. During the day, judging by driving distance, you'd have four distinct possibilities: Hobart vs. Carnegie Mellon 12pm, Brockport vs. Frostburg 1pm, Ithaca vs. Widener 1pm, Cortland vs. Rowan 1pm. All four are within driving distance to hit both games in their entirety
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 28, 2009, 03:33:46 PM
Quote from: John McGraw on August 28, 2009, 11:47:44 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 28, 2009, 11:20:40 AM
Quote from: dewcrew88 on August 27, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: TGP on August 26, 2009, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 26, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
Now that this little Kickoff '09 thing is out of the way, K-Mack would like to discuss the much ballyhooed-but-never-follow-throughed "ATN and the LLPP go to a game"

Would probably be best if you made suggestions on the ATN thread, as I work way too much to stay current here. :)

Gro et al will push for Shoeapalooza 09 but TGP would recommend Oct 10 - Hobart v. Union.  Word on the street is that Frank Rossi has ended his hold out and signed a one year deal to continue calling U games.

I still vote the Shoes game. A sight nearly unmatched throughout the d3 landscape.

I'll be the judge of that! :)

I had heard the same thing about Rossi. On facebook, perhaps!?!

I still wish I had gone to that Rochester-area day/night doubleheader two seasons ago. I wonder (aloud) if that's on again this year. What was it, like Brockport and somebody (Cortland?) during the day and SJF/Rochester at night?

Couple different options actually that day. You've got Fisher against Rochester under the lights at 7:00 pm in the Courage Bowl. During the day, judging by driving distance, you'd have four distinct possibilities: Hobart vs. Carnegie Mellon 12pm, Brockport vs. Frostburg 1pm, Ithaca vs. Widener 1pm, Cortland vs. Rowan 1pm. All four are within driving distance to hit both games in their entirety

I literally JUST got done looking this up on my own and posting on the LL board about it.

It;s possible on both the 12th and the 19th actually. I could see Case at Rochester at 1 on the 12th (bad weekend for me to travel though) before Buff St at SJF at 7.

On the 19th, I have Alfred, Bart and Brockport at home, then Roch @ SJF at 7. Leaning towards that, I think.

Hadn't considered Cortland or Ithaca. I guess Alfred might be pushing it, but it would be a good one to tick off, especially because we were in love with them in Kickoff.

Also because of the legendary pep band :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on August 28, 2009, 04:38:29 PM
I'd love for you guys to get up(KMack)/down(Pat) to Geneva and if there's no possibility of it next year, but consider that there's a major renovation to the field, stands and area around Boswell field after this football season.  It's not $100 Billion or whatever RPI spent, but they're putting in state of the art turf, new seating, walls, etc.  I guess the flip side, if you care, is that there's more DIII lacrosse history on Boswell Field than anywhere else, so maybe its better to see it in its current state than after the renovation.  Syracuse, Cornell and a few others used to grumble in the 80's (when interdivisional play occurred and Hobart was on their DIII championship streak) that Bart would water down the field to slow down opposing teams.  Did it happen?  No comment. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 03, 2009, 09:10:11 PM
Excellent opening ATN...

Looking forward to the weekly column.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2009-09-02/It%27s+OK+to+play+for+No.+3
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 04, 2009, 01:54:51 AM
Ralph,
Thanks.

Got some feedback, and a good point is raised here, so I thought I'd share. I definitely meant to take a look at Wartburg, but after charting 10 seasons of playoffs and adding 22 teams' records up by hand, I definitely could've just forgotten to do the Knights. Oops.

QuoteBill on  Thursday, September 03, 2009 at 10:35:56 PM
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Subject: Central?
                Notes: I read with interest your comments in "It's Ok to Play for 3rd & 4th".

While I was hoping to see an IIAC team in the Top 10 of the D3 Football Era, I wasn't surprised to see that we weren't.  I was surprised to see Central in the also rans while Wartburg was shut out on the list.

Regular season records over the last ten years:
Central 81-19  81%
Wartburg 85-15 85%
(The same non-conference record)

Playoffs over the past 10 years:
Central 4-6
Wartburg 4-5

Long term history favors the Dutch.  Short term hisory show things to be fairly equal with a slight edge to the Knights.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 04, 2009, 09:41:01 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 03, 2009, 09:10:11 PM
Excellent opening ATN...

Looking forward to the weekly column.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2009-09-02/It%27s+OK+to+play+for+No.+3

Turns out not everybody is a fan:

QuoteKeith,

I generally read your column each week regardless of what it includes. Most of what
you have to say is not only valid but also very informative. That's why I am so
disappointed with your column this week. We could have all be spared the time it
took to sift through what I am convienced is one of your worst offerings to date. My
time would have been better spent doing almost anything (insert cross stitching,
crocheting, or underwater basket weaving refer here). Not sure exactly what happened
this week, but here's to the fact that all you can do after this particular offering
is go up. Maybe that was your plan maybe you wanted to lower the bar. You certainly
have. I'll think twice next week before reading any of your thoughts. This one was
particularly horrible. I for one sure hope you are wrong about the d3 championship
being a two horse race. Lets' all toast to you having something intelligible to say
next week although I won't be reading that one. With all the excitement of the start
of the season this is the best you could come up with? REALLY? NEW LOW MY FRIEND

(signed by a Matt from the 817 area code)

Matt,
Interesting. First two e-mails I got last night insisted it was some of my best work ever. I put so much work into the columns that by the end I never can tell if it's any good or not. Guess that's for you all to decide.

Care to elaborate on what exactly bothered you? I would think a message of "even if the same two teams make it back to the Stagg Bowl, enjoy the season for what it is" would resonate with everyone, even a fan of one of the Texas teams that has a legitimate shot at unseating Mount Union or UW-Whitewater.

Keith McMillan
Kickoff '09 Managing Editor
Keith@D3football.com


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 04, 2009, 09:47:11 AM
Some people just don't like being faced with the facts (e.g. these guys have played four straight times and don't lose much) and lash out blindly when they can offer no logical rebuttal.  

Now, as for me, I think you could just as easily have plugged Trinity in over Bridgewater, esp. given the way BC totally fell off the map last season.  Understand your points, but don't think a 'top ten' team should have a sub-.500 record in any season given the stiff competition for those spots.  
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 04, 2009, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 04, 2009, 09:41:01 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 03, 2009, 09:10:11 PM
Excellent opening ATN...

Looking forward to the weekly column.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2009-09-02/It%27s+OK+to+play+for+No.+3

Turns out not everybody is a fan:

QuoteKeith,

I generally read your column each week regardless of what it includes. Most of what
you have to say is not only valid but also very informative. That's why I am so
disappointed with your column this week. We could have all be spared the time it
took to sift through what I am convienced is one of your worst offerings to date. My
time would have been better spent doing almost anything (insert cross stitching,
crocheting, or underwater basket weaving refer here). Not sure exactly what happened
this week, but here's to the fact that all you can do after this particular offering
is go up. Maybe that was your plan maybe you wanted to lower the bar. You certainly
have. I'll think twice next week before reading any of your thoughts. This one was
particularly horrible. I for one sure hope you are wrong about the d3 championship
being a two horse race. Lets' all toast to you having something intelligible to say
next week although I won't be reading that one. With all the excitement of the start
of the season this is the best you could come up with? REALLY? NEW LOW MY FRIEND

(signed by a Matt from the 817 area code)

Matt,
Interesting. First two e-mails I got last night insisted it was some of my best work ever. I put so much work into the columns that by the end I never can tell if it's any good or not. Guess that's for you all to decide.

Care to elaborate on what exactly bothered you? I would think a message of "even if the same two teams make it back to the Stagg Bowl, enjoy the season for what it is" would resonate with everyone, even a fan of one of the Texas teams that has a legitimate shot at unseating Mount Union or UW-Whitewater.

Keith McMillan
Kickoff '09 Managing Editor
Keith@D3football.com



Sounds like someone's bitter.  I thought the article was great.  I think there are teams with a shot, but it won't be easy.  barring a fluke loss in season I expect UWW and Mount will be the top seeds again, but as we saw in 2004, the road does go through sometimes.  Keep up the good work.  Look forward to next weeks article.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 04, 2009, 07:55:45 PM
Re:  The critique from Matt from area code 817 (Ft Worth,  an area code in which there is not a single D-III school.)



Keith,

I generally read your column each week regardless of what it includes. Most of what
you have to say is not only valid but also very informative. That's why I am so
disappointed with your column this week. We could have all be spared the time it
took to sift through what I am convienced is one of your worst offerings to date. My
time would have been better spent doing almost anything (insert cross stitching,
crocheting, or underwater basket weaving refer here). Not sure exactly what happened
this week, but here's to the fact that all you can do after this particular offering
is go up. Maybe that was your plan maybe you wanted to lower the bar. You certainly
have. I'll think twice next week before reading any of your thoughts. This one was
particularly horrible. I for one sure hope you are wrong about the d3 championship
being a two horse race.
Lets' all toast to you having something intelligible to say
next week although I won't be reading that one. With all the excitement of the start
of the season this is the best you could come up with? REALLY? NEW LOW MY FRIEND

(signed by a Matt from the 817 area code).



That looks like a generic rant...

One could switch out that sentence for any of these and the entire paragraph would still make the same sense.

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "the d3 championship being a two horse race."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "the Yankees losing to the Red Sox in the AL Championships."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "the Dallas Cowboys choking in the NFC East and Da Iggles winning it all."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "Tom DeLay winning it all on Dancing with the Stars."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "Jon and Octomom finding true love in reality show heaven."

:D ;D   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on September 04, 2009, 08:38:16 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 04, 2009, 07:55:45 PM
Re:  The critique from Matt from area code 817 (Ft Worth,  an area code in which there is not a single D-III school.)



Keith,

I generally read your column each week regardless of what it includes. Most of what
you have to say is not only valid but also very informative. That's why I am so
disappointed with your column this week. We could have all be spared the time it
took to sift through what I am convienced is one of your worst offerings to date. My
time would have been better spent doing almost anything (insert cross stitching,
crocheting, or underwater basket weaving refer here). Not sure exactly what happened
this week, but here's to the fact that all you can do after this particular offering
is go up. Maybe that was your plan maybe you wanted to lower the bar. You certainly
have. I'll think twice next week before reading any of your thoughts. This one was
particularly horrible. I for one sure hope you are wrong about the d3 championship
being a two horse race.
Lets' all toast to you having something intelligible to say
next week although I won't be reading that one. With all the excitement of the start
of the season this is the best you could come up with? REALLY? NEW LOW MY FRIEND

(signed by a Matt from the 817 area code).



That looks like a generic rant...

One could switch out that sentence for any of these and the entire paragraph would still make the same sense.

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "the d3 championship being a two horse race."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "the Yankees losing to the Red Sox in the AL Championships."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "the Dallas Cowboys choking in the NFC East and Da Iggles winning it all."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "Tom DeLay winning it all on Dancing with the Stars."

I for one sure hope you are wrong about:  "Jon and Octomom finding true love in reality show heaven."

:D ;D   ;)

LMAO !! ;D  +1 Ralph
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dlippiel on September 06, 2009, 08:51:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 04, 2009, 09:41:01 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 03, 2009, 09:10:11 PM
Excellent opening ATN...

Looking forward to the weekly column.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2009-09-02/It%27s+OK+to+play+for+No.+3

Turns out not everybody is a fan:

QuoteKeith,

I generally read your column each week regardless of what it includes. Most of what
you have to say is not only valid but also very informative. That's why I am so
disappointed with your column this week. We could have all be spared the time it
took to sift through what I am convienced is one of your worst offerings to date. My
time would have been better spent doing almost anything (insert cross stitching,
crocheting, or underwater basket weaving refer here). Not sure exactly what happened
this week, but here's to the fact that all you can do after this particular offering
is go up. Maybe that was your plan maybe you wanted to lower the bar. You certainly
have. I'll think twice next week before reading any of your thoughts. This one was
particularly horrible. I for one sure hope you are wrong about the d3 championship
being a two horse race. Lets' all toast to you having something intelligible to say
next week although I won't be reading that one. With all the excitement of the start
of the season this is the best you could come up with? REALLY? NEW LOW MY FRIEND

(signed by a Matt from the 817 area code)

Matt,
Interesting. First two e-mails I got last night insisted it was some of my best work ever. I put so much work into the columns that by the end I never can tell if it's any good or not. Guess that's for you all to decide.

Care to elaborate on what exactly bothered you? I would think a message of "even if the same two teams make it back to the Stagg Bowl, enjoy the season for what it is" would resonate with everyone, even a fan of one of the Texas teams that has a legitimate shot at unseating Mount Union or UW-Whitewater.

Keith McMillan
Kickoff '09 Managing Editor
Keith@D3football.com




Looks like he may have you there on your "two horse race" thoughts. dlip means its not like UWW and MUC have ever been in a Stagg Bowl or played against each other in a Stagg Bowl recently  ???. Dude dlip always enjoys your ATN's and appreciates all the hard wrok and preparation that goes into them. Keep it up and thanks!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 12, 2009, 09:27:16 AM
Congratulations to D3football.com on 30M screen views on the front page.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 14, 2009, 02:45:24 PM
Just getting around to sharing more feedback from the first two weeks. Patrick Bohn raises a valid point:

QuoteMr. McMillan,

I liked your recent piece on the MUC/UW-W stronghold on the top of D-III. I think
you're right in that we, as D-III fans, have become a little too focused on the
Stagg Bowl when discussing success. However, I think the issue is, for those of us
who didn't grow up following D-III football, the Stagg Bowl is the one chance to
show everyone else how great D-III is. And when it's the same two teams getting all
the national attention, then all they know about is those two teams.

I understand that, on some level, D-III football will always be a niche in the
sporting world, and that the mainstream media will never really care about it,
regardless of the amount of parity in the sport. But at the same time, I do think
there's room for the sport's national profile to grow somewhat, and when the one
game shown nationally is always the same two teams, it doesn't allow any other team
to creep into the national scene.

That's not to say that MUC and UW-W don't deserve their success. But there are a lot
of great teams in D-III football, and exposing the world to a UMHB or Hardin-Simmons
or whoever would, I believe, do the sport some good.

As always, keep up the great work.

Patrick Bohn
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 14, 2009, 05:08:36 PM
K-Mack,

Mr. Bohn does raise a valid point.  It would be nice to see something like an expose on D3s in sports history during the Stagg broadcast.  Obviously I don't know about all D3s, but i do know that HSU and McMurry have a pre-D3 history with names like Sammy Baugh and Grant Teaff.  Surely there are enough famous sports alumni from schools that are currently D3 to make an interest piece that could run @ the half.  I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be a good way of showing the faces of D3 rather than just the top of the heap.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2009, 12:23:39 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on September 14, 2009, 05:08:36 PM
K-Mack,

Mr. Bohn does raise a valid point.  It would be nice to see something like an expose on D3s in sports history during the Stagg broadcast.  Obviously I don't know about all D3s, but i do know that HSU and McMurry have a pre-D3 history with names like Sammy Baugh and Grant Teaff.  Surely there are enough famous sports alumni from schools that are currently D3 to make an interest piece that could run @ the half.  I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be a good way of showing the faces of D3 rather than just the top of the heap.
Two others that are in Halls of Fame...

HSU's Bulldog Turner (no relation) in the NFL HOF and
McMurry's Brad Rowlands (late 1940's McM running back) who in the College Football HOF.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 15, 2009, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on September 14, 2009, 05:08:36 PM
K-Mack,

Mr. Bohn does raise a valid point.  It would be nice to see something like an expose on D3s in sports history during the Stagg broadcast.  Obviously I don't know about all D3s, but i do know that HSU and McMurry have a pre-D3 history with names like Sammy Baugh and Grant Teaff.  Surely there are enough famous sports alumni from schools that are currently D3 to make an interest piece that could run @ the half.  I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be a good way of showing the faces of D3 rather than just the top of the heap.

The thing about that is once you do it once, do you re-run the same piece every year? If so, do the same people see it over and over again?

ESPN is covering Division III one day a year, for three hours only. It's nice when they pronounce the players' names right, so I'm not expecting them to carry the torch for educating the entire nation on the history of Division III football. That's what we do. It would be nice since ESPN reaches so many households if they could do more, but we're honestly just a blip on their screen. If the UConn women's basketball game runs long, the Stagg Bowl kickoff is delayed.

Mentioning Sammy Baugh and Grant Teaff and Bulldog Turner is just the tip of the iceberg. Presidents, movie stars and famous coaches have all been D3 players and alumni ... it would be quite a long piece to touch on the entire pre-D3 history of these schools (the divisions didn't come into play until '73)

I think when ESPN comes in, they focus mostly on that one game and go back to doing what they do best, and what gets the most advertisers for them. It's tough to ask them to shine the light of D3 on the viewers, many of whom probably already follow D3 or one of the teams involved, when they've got a game to produce.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 15, 2009, 04:51:32 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 15, 2009, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on September 14, 2009, 05:08:36 PM
K-Mack,

Mr. Bohn does raise a valid point.  It would be nice to see something like an expose on D3s in sports history during the Stagg broadcast.  Obviously I don't know about all D3s, but i do know that HSU and McMurry have a pre-D3 history with names like Sammy Baugh and Grant Teaff.  Surely there are enough famous sports alumni from schools that are currently D3 to make an interest piece that could run @ the half.  I doubt it will ever happen, but it would be a good way of showing the faces of D3 rather than just the top of the heap.

The thing about that is once you do it once, do you re-run the same piece every year? If so, do the same people see it over and over again?

ESPN is covering Division III one day a year, for three hours only. It's nice when they pronounce the players' names right, so I'm not expecting them to carry the torch for educating the entire nation on the history of Division III football. That's what we do. It would be nice since ESPN reaches so many households if they could do more, but we're honestly just a blip on their screen. If the UConn women's basketball game runs long, the Stagg Bowl kickoff is delayed.

Mentioning Sammy Baugh and Grant Teaff and Bulldog Turner is just the tip of the iceberg. Presidents, movie stars and famous coaches have all been D3 players and alumni ... it would be quite a long piece to touch on the entire pre-D3 history of these schools (the divisions didn't come into play until '73)

I think when ESPN comes in, they focus mostly on that one game and go back to doing what they do best, and what gets the most advertisers for them. It's tough to ask them to shine the light of D3 on the viewers, many of whom probably already follow D3 or one of the teams involved, when they've got a game to produce.
Why not make something like that a year in and out feature on that one day.  Obviously to include everybody would take too much time, but what about a short piece each year that talks about some of the people from D3 schools that have had an impact on their respective fields.  Like I said, I know it won't happen, but I think something like that would be good.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 15, 2009, 05:03:56 PM
In the absence of UW-Whitewater, though, all non-D-III fans would know about is Mount Union. And honestly, without Mount Union, what identity does Division III football have at all, really? Perhaps they might know that guy up in Minnesota whose name they mispronounce and has won all the games.

Having different teams in the Stagg Bowl wouldn't diversify the identity of Division III, in my opinion. It doesn't sink into the general football fan's consciousness.

How many general D-I football fans can name more than a couple of Division II powers? Grand Valley State ... uhh ... Northwest Missouri maybe ...

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on September 15, 2009, 05:10:16 PM
Pat

Maybe they give the DIII site some free puiblicity!!!! Once you get them here they get hooked ;D I can see the envy on their faces when they see what this site has to offer!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 15, 2009, 05:24:21 PM
I think you're probably right about Mount Union being the face of DIII, of course if Mary Hardin-Baylor was there, most people would think it was the Baylor Bears playing and then wonder when they stopped wearing green.  (I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've been asked, "So you went to Baylor?" after telling people I went to MHB)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: doolittledog on September 16, 2009, 11:14:13 AM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

Unless you are in a state like Iowa, where college football is more popular that pro football.  D1 is the king, but people know who the smaller schools are. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 16, 2009, 03:29:52 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on September 16, 2009, 11:14:13 AM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

Unless you are in a state like Iowa, where college football is more popular that pro football.  D1 is the king, but people know who the smaller schools are. 

(puts Iowa on the 'states that don't suck' list)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 16, 2009, 03:31:33 PM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

I go further. I usually say unless you live in the same town as a D3 school, are an alum or know somebody who went to one, they are not in your consciousness.

That could most certainly be improved, but realistically, it's where we stand now, even after 10 years of technological advances that bring us closer and increase our visibility.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 16, 2009, 03:33:20 PM
Because posting this on the E8 and LL boards wasn't enough:

K-Mack needs a little advice. Coming to the Buffalo/Rochester area this weekend. Definitely going to Rochester-SJF at 7, but for the early game, should I attend

a) Carnegie Mellon-Hobart (starts at noon and shorter drive)
b) St. Lawrence-Alfred (might need the 1 p.m. kickoff since I fly in that a.m., and have never seen either team play)

Someone in the know, help me decide.

Also, if any board regulars are in the area on Saturday, definitely drop me a line. Keith@D3football.com or whatever.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on September 16, 2009, 04:28:43 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on September 16, 2009, 11:14:13 AM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

Unless you are in a state like Iowa, where college football is more popular that pro football.  D1 is the king, but people know who the smaller schools are. 

Very true Doolittle, if you take the combined enrollments of the D3 schools in Iowa they are larger than Iowa, Iowa State, and much larger than UNI.  So D3 does impact more Iowans directly than D1.  D1 has the large media outlets to promote them so they get the lions share of attention, but the largest radio station in Iowa (WHO) does always give credit to the D3 top 25 teams.  The list them with the coaches poll and not the D3.com on but they still give the place on the sports section of the news.  If you throw the NIAI schools in Iowa the small college enrollments outweigh each university.  Not total to total but total small college to each university. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 17, 2009, 05:37:06 PM
For my personal reference ... mostly for Pep's directions and how to find the tailgating at Bart.

Quote from: AUKaz00 on September 17, 2009, 10:59:00 AM
Quote from: bart37 on September 17, 2009, 06:18:01 AM
Quote from: AUPepBand on September 17, 2009, 06:11:39 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 16, 2009, 10:55:24 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 16, 2009, 09:16:14 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 16, 2009, 03:28:06 PM
Congrats on 2500 pages, y'all.

So K-Mack needs a little advice from the LLPP. Coming to town this weekend. Definitely going to Rochester-SJF at 7, but for the early game

a) Carnegie Mellon-Hobart (starts at noon and shorter drive)
b) St. Lawrence-Alfred (might need the 1 p.m. kickoff since I fly in that a.m., and have never seen either team play)

Someone in the know, help me decide.

Also, if any of you are in the area on Saturday, definitely drop me a line. Keith@D3football.com or the ATN board or here or whatever.

(secretly wants Tennessee to magically pull out a W on Saturday, FWIW)

Where are you flying into?  If it's Rochester, Alfred is about 81 miles (75-90+ mins) directly south on the 390.  Geneva is 46 miles (about 50 mins) east of Rocho on the NYS thruway (i-90).

I'd actually advise a triple dip of going to Hobart-CMU first half, listen to 89.7 FM WEOS en route to Alfred, see Alfred late 1st-early second half.

Roll up to Rocho, grab a garbage plate at Nick's (if that's still around), then hit the courage bowl for the night cap.

Otherwise, my biased opinion is Bart-CMU.  The last two games have been decided by a combined 6 points.  The Larries are improved (at least good enough to beat Norwich) but may get stomped by Alfred.

Thought about the Triple dip, but looking at the map, I wasn't sure it was possible necessarily. Or worth it. Though I think when I had that thought, I'd forgotten about the staggered start times at Bart & Alfred.

That's a heck of a lot of driving, but I would like to see all three campuses.

Even selfishly I'm torn. I've seen Hobart and CMU, and never the other two ... but shorter drives are always fun. People I'd like to meet at both places.

So basically I came for the biased opinion. Good stuff, it helps.

Pep would add that the drive between Geneva and Alfred (usually 90 min), no matter what routes one takes to get through the Finger Lakes, is quite enjoyable. Pep would recommend from Geneva, take Rt. 14A south (left off Rts. 5&20 west of the Boz) to Penn Yan, then take Rt. 54 South to Bath, where you can pick up I-86 West....take Exit 33, right on Karrdale Ave., right on Rt. 21 thru Almond, right on Rt. 244....straight into town to the light where you take a couple lefts and follow drive into McLane Parking Lot. (If you're coming to Alfred, let Pep know and he'll reserve a parking spot behind the Merrill Field grandstand, which is a left coming into town)

Follow your tracks back to I-86, go east to Exit 34N, follow Rt. 36 north to Dansville where you hit I-390 north to Rochester. Easy!

Let Pep know if you're coming; he'll give you the nickel tour and accentuate all of the positives of Alfred where Pep is serving a life sentence.  ???


`Bart kickoff @ noon. Awesome tailgating at Bristol Fieldhouse parking lot behind the field. Fans would love to party w/you K-Mack! Hope to meet you at the festivities.Go `Bart!!!

I said it earlier on the LLPP, but since you have no horse in the race K-Mack I think your best bet is going to Geneva.  From your perspective you're looking for the best game and Bart-CMU gives you the best chance of an exciting finish.  If the Pumpkins come out flat again you may regret the decision and we'd absolutely love to have you down at Merrill, but you can wait for the first round of the playoffs to make the trip!

On Saxon Warriors!!!

You guys are making me think I should try to do all three. That would mean first half at Hobart though, because of the earlier kick, and second half at Alfred, where all predictions are that it will no longer be a game by the time I get there.

90 minutes mean I miss some game. And this is going to be a LOT of driving. K-Mack thinks he will hate himself on Saturday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 17, 2009, 05:50:31 PM
Don't try to do all three. I wouldn't drive any longer during halftime than the trip you and I took from Benedictine to Elmhurst.

I would recommend taking the teams you haven't seen before. You could get someone to get you a tape of the TV broadcast of the Hobart-Carnegie Mellon game.

This isn't an official assignment, though, just my $.02.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 17, 2009, 08:37:27 PM
Perhaps, then, I should have decided before getting everyone all riled up at whichever one I can't make it to.

It's all about seeing the game-day atmoshphere though. I certainly could stop by one of the fields another time.

It's going to be a difficult drive anyway, esp. since I'm flying out of Baltimore. (and if I didn't have a family, I would go to Gettysburg-Johns Hopkins on Friday night, stay the night and fly in the a.m.) :)

I'll figure out if it's all even possible tomorrow. I usually can't even think straight til after I file ATN.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on September 17, 2009, 08:41:15 PM
KMack I say take a bribe.  Whoever is willing to pay you the big bucks to cover their team.   ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 17, 2009, 09:30:16 PM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on September 17, 2009, 08:41:15 PM
KMack I say take a bribe.  Whoever is willing to pay you the big bucks to cover their team.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

If he did that, he'd never see a game ...    ;)

And thanks, K-Mack, for reminding us one more time about that 2002 debacle in this week's ATN.  About the only good thing that came out of that weekend was the chance to finally meet you and Pat in person. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 17, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
TGP has the Hobart guys ready with the red carpet for K-Mack but Pat does bring up a good point re the TWC game tape.  Question is - although KM says he's seen Hobart - but the question I have is have you seen Hobart at Hobart?

You won't get this view in Alfred:

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F0%2F00%2FSeneca_lake_Geneva.JPG%2F798px-Seneca_lake_Geneva.JPG&hash=e4331ad3ac6a928966d9bc7762b52b2de08e4b94)

Don't forget the wine trail either.....http://senecalakewine.com/jc/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 17, 2009, 10:59:00 PM
Dutch, you kid, but apparently word's been put in that a "VIP" is en route. I appreciate it, of course, even if I don't qualify.

re: TGP ... It's not official unless you can say you were there, even if it's only for a quarter or so.

Ron ... Yeah, uh, sorry bout that. Should I have gone with Colorado College travel agent as least enviable position instead!?!?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 10:59:36 PM
Excellent ATN.

Thanks for the perspective on football in New England.

The variation in football programs and conferences in D-III compels us to evaluate a coach's performance by how he (she) does among the peers in the various conferences.  (In reality, that extends to all sports.)

As for the Selection Committee having a tough job, my persistent criticism of the Selection processes in the various sports is the inaccuracies that are easily seen in the Handbooks, the data that the committees receive, and the apparent neglect that we receive in the administrative processes in Indianapolis.  Several of these have been chronicled on these web pages, e.g., the Bracketgates, the errors in the accurate number and allocation of bids, errors in using the Mileage software, blatant errors in the information and its presentation in the various Handbooks, etc.

The vote in the 2009 Annual Meeting concerning the release of the Regional Ranking data to coaches reflected some backroom deals to call off the pressure that was being put on Indianapolis.

I am for the coaches.  I wish that the HQ would perform at the level that these coaches run their own programs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM
How about this for toughest job...

Football coach at Swarthmore, New Jersey City, Blackburn, Principia and Colorado College...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 18, 2009, 12:23:45 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM
How about this for toughest job...

Football coach at Swarthmore, New Jersey City, Blackburn, Principia and Colorado College...

I thought about that. Maybe didn't give it enough consideration, on the grounds they no longer exist, but they're certainly unenviable positions ... maybe moreso than some of the ones who made the list.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 18, 2009, 12:28:47 AM
Heyyyyy TGP ... that pic wasn't there the first time.

Doesn't the ball roll off the field into the water though?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 18, 2009, 01:06:48 AM
K-Mack, good column as usual.  One minor quibble: for the selection committee, you identified Norm Eash as IWU's AD.  Unless there has been a change neither I nor the IWU website has yet heard about, the AD is still Dennie Bridges.

But you're forgiven.  Bridges was one of the all-time great basketball coaches - a sport you don't appear to recognize or believe in! ;)

(Stick around in the winter months - you might enjoy it! :))
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:28:08 AM
I suspect he's been to more D-III basketball games in the past decade than you have.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on September 18, 2009, 08:21:43 AM
K-Mack,

Good column.  I am continually amazed at the insight that this site brings to the differences of small college football that are present in all areas of the country.  When I read the ATN or the other around the region articles I am always learning about quality individuals that are performing at outstanding levels "for love of the game."  Thanks to you and Pat for your efforts to improve this forum.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 18, 2009, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from this weeks ATN:

QuoteThat said, perhaps the most interesting bit of feedback came from a prominent player on a Texas team. In part, he wrote of Mount Union:

"If they were to play Hardin-Simmons or UMHB to start off the season it would a different story as you can tell HSU and UMHB aren't afraid of opening up going up North to play football because we realize that no other team gives us a good look until we play against each other."

Have their coach call up Coach Kehres.  I'm sure he would be willing to set something up.  Or how about take of business on the field and MUC will see you in Salem some day?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on September 18, 2009, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:28:08 AM
I suspect he's been to more D-III basketball games in the past decade than you have.

Geez, Pat, you've been awfully prickly of late. Are you getting enough sleep?  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 18, 2009, 02:24:09 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 18, 2009, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from this weeks ATN:

QuoteThat said, perhaps the most interesting bit of feedback came from a prominent player on a Texas team. In part, he wrote of Mount Union:

"If they were to play Hardin-Simmons or UMHB to start off the season it would a different story as you can tell HSU and UMHB aren't afraid of opening up going up North to play football because we realize that no other team gives us a good look until we play against each other."

Have their coach call up Coach Kehres.  I'm sure he would be willing to set something up.  Or how about take of business on the field and MUC will see you in Salem some day?
I like the sentiment here.  UMHB has traveled and played home and home series' with Willamette and with UWW (and wanted to again from what I gather); HSU has played 4 with Linfield.  Both teams are willing to spend the coin and schedule the strong teams for the out of conference games.  Otherwise they're playing NAIA games.  And It has paid off; UMHB has taken care of business and made it to play MUC in the playoffs once and UWW twice, but don't miss the point that because of where HSU and UMHB are, people don't really get a feel for how good they are or aren't until they play one another.  And let's be honest, normally they're playing that game for the conference title and who gets the home game for the rematch in the first round (if both teams finish with no more than 1 loss).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:45:55 PM
Quote from: HSCTiger74 on September 18, 2009, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:28:08 AM
I suspect he's been to more D-III basketball games in the past decade than you have.

Geez, Pat, you've been awfully prickly of late. Are you getting enough sleep?  ;)

Dunno, I've made two posts a day for the past week so I'm not sure if you really know me well enough to know if I'm prickly.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: kickerdad on September 18, 2009, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

You are right on the money with this. Our son played at Averett University and during the 4 years we traveled back and forth (300+ miles) to each home game, I found it amazing how many folks in the city of Danville, Virginia that didn't care that there was a college football game being played on Saturday afternoon, or didn't know there was a even a college in Danville. You go to a local food establishment after the game and a local would see the flag on the car or Averett on a sweat shirt and say "Who is Averett and where are they located". Even the local newspaper gave high schools more publicity than the college. The year Averett played Mount Union (Number one DIII football team in the country) in Danville, there was barely any press, and if it weren't for the family's that travel as far away as FL or PA, plus the crowd that followed Mount Union, there wouldn't have been more than 20 locals in the stands. However I think a lot has to do with the fact that Averett has only been playing football since 2000 and with the exception of the 2005 and 2006 seasons, the excitment hasn't been there. Sometimes I don't think any of the students came (especially in 2007 when they went 0-10.

We live close to Christopher Newport University and everyone knows about them. The two times Averett played there, the home side was packed and seemed to be standing room only on the sidelines. Only saw that at Averett the one season they shared the conference championship with CNU.

I just wonder is there more that the schools could do to attract interest in the local towns and surrounding towns?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 18, 2009, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 18, 2009, 12:28:47 AM
Heyyyyy TGP ... that pic wasn't there the first time.

Doesn't the ball roll off the field into the water though?

Well truth be told the lake is about 1/2 to 1 mile from the Boz (up Rts 5 & 20). 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 18, 2009, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on September 18, 2009, 02:24:09 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 18, 2009, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from this weeks ATN:

QuoteThat said, perhaps the most interesting bit of feedback came from a prominent player on a Texas team. In part, he wrote of Mount Union:

"If they were to play Hardin-Simmons or UMHB to start off the season it would a different story as you can tell HSU and UMHB aren't afraid of opening up going up North to play football because we realize that no other team gives us a good look until we play against each other."

Have their coach call up Coach Kehres.  I'm sure he would be willing to set something up.  Or how about take of business on the field and MUC will see you in Salem some day?
I like the sentiment here.  UMHB has traveled and played home and home series' with Willamette and with UWW (and wanted to again from what I gather); HSU has played 4 with Linfield.  Both teams are willing to spend the coin and schedule the strong teams for the out of conference games.  Otherwise they're playing NAIA games.  And It has paid off; UMHB has taken care of business and made it to play MUC in the playoffs once and UWW twice, but don't miss the point that because of where HSU and UMHB are, people don't really get a feel for how good they are or aren't until they play one another.  And let's be honest, normally they're playing that game for the conference title and who gets the home game for the rematch in the first round (if both teams finish with no more than 1 loss).

In fairness to all parties involved, MUC is a member of the 10-team Ohio Athletic Conference. They have one non-conference date that can be filled in the first 2 weeks of the season.  They have played a former MUC coach when he took the head job at Averett (VA) a home-and-away in 2006 & 2007 and St John Fisher (NY), a quality East Region opponent in a home-and-away series, in 2008 & 2009.  You cannot fault those series.

The ASC, home of HSU and UMHB, is rumored to have Concordia Texas adding football in 2011.  That makes a 9-conference game schedule.  Same challenges there...

I hope that both UMHB and HSU can find quality non-conference (hopefully D-III) games.  Maybe we shall see an MUC/UMHB or HSU non-conference game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 18, 2009, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:28:08 AM
I suspect he's been to more D-III basketball games in the past decade than you have.

Maybe, but after a 37 year gap, I'm not as easy to beat as I used to be. ;)  While I'm not about to start competing in those "how many games did you attend" contests you, Greg, David, etc., get into each year, I have been to 7 games in the last 3 years.  It's a start. :D

I was just razzin' K-Mack.  Just because he's a football writer doesn't mean he can't join in on the boards as a basketball fan.  While I read a majority of the boards, I don't read 'em all, so maybe he does; but I do read ODAC, so I'm guessing he doesn't.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on September 18, 2009, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: kickerdad on September 18, 2009, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

You are right on the money with this. Our son played at Averett University and during the 4 years we traveled back and forth (300+ miles) to each home game, I found it amazing how many folks in the city of Danville, Virginia that didn't care that there was a college football game being played on Saturday afternoon, or didn't know there was a even a college in Danville. . . .


I swear by the blood below my feet,
Virgil Caine's brother'd a been at those Averett games,
but a Yankee laid him in his grave--
too bad you can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat (2:40 - 3:10)  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMHyovwX7JM).

la na na na na la na na na na na . . .

(with thanks and apologies to Messrs. Roberston, Danko and Helm et al.)  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 19, 2009, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 18, 2009, 09:05:39 PM
In fairness to all parties involved, MUC is a member of the 10-team Ohio Athletic Conference. They have one non-conference date that can be filled in the first 2 weeks of the season.  They have played a former MUC coach when he took the head job at Averett (VA) a home-and-away in 2006 & 2007 and St John Fisher (NY), a quality East Region opponent in a home-and-away series, in 2008 & 2009.  You cannot fault those series.

Mike Dunlevy (http://www.averettcougars.com/coaches.aspx?rc=46&path=football) was a former MUC coach? ???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 19, 2009, 10:10:13 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 19, 2009, 09:44:26 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 18, 2009, 09:05:39 PM
In fairness to all parties involved, MUC is a member of the 10-team Ohio Athletic Conference. They have one non-conference date that can be filled in the first 2 weeks of the season.  They have played a former MUC coach when he took the head job at Averett (VA) a home-and-away in 2006 & 2007 and St John Fisher (NY), a quality East Region opponent in a home-and-away series, in 2008 & 2009.  You cannot fault those series.

Mike Dunlevy (http://www.averettcougars.com/coaches.aspx?rc=46&path=football) was a former MUC coach? ???
MY bad,  Don Montgomery at E&H is the MUC grad.

Thanks, kirasdad and +1!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 20, 2009, 08:09:56 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 19, 2009, 10:10:13 PM
MY bad,  Don Montgomery at E&H is the MUC grad.

And LONG TIME Defensive Coordinator.  Thanks for the +K
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2009, 10:47:41 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:45:55 PM
Quote from: HSCTiger74 on September 18, 2009, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2009, 02:28:08 AM
I suspect he's been to more D-III basketball games in the past decade than you have.

Geez, Pat, you've been awfully prickly of late. Are you getting enough sleep?  ;)

Dunno, I've made two posts a day for the past week so I'm not sure if you really know me well enough to know if I'm prickly.

of late?!?!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2009, 10:53:17 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 18, 2009, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 18, 2009, 12:28:47 AM
Heyyyyy TGP ... that pic wasn't there the first time.

Doesn't the ball roll off the field into the water though?

Well truth be told the lake is about 1/2 to 1 mile from the Boz (up Rts 5 & 20). 

Even before I'd seen the field, I was kidding. There should at least be a some stands between the water and the edge of the field.  ;)

Although at Chowan, extra points kicked would roll down a hill and into a lake. I think I've seen the water feature at least one other place.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2009, 11:03:43 PM
Quote from: kickerdad on September 18, 2009, 03:17:15 PM
Quote from: frank uible on September 16, 2009, 11:07:15 AM
The typical football fan located 50 miles from any DIII college generally doesn't even know that college exists, much less care about its football team.

You are right on the money with this. Our son played at Averett University and during the 4 years we traveled back and forth (300+ miles) to each home game, I found it amazing how many folks in the city of Danville, Virginia that didn't care that there was a college football game being played on Saturday afternoon, or didn't know there was a even a college in Danville. You go to a local food establishment after the game and a local would see the flag on the car or Averett on a sweat shirt and say "Who is Averett and where are they located". Even the local newspaper gave high schools more publicity than the college. The year Averett played Mount Union (Number one DIII football team in the country) in Danville, there was barely any press, and if it weren't for the family's that travel as far away as FL or PA, plus the crowd that followed Mount Union, there wouldn't have been more than 20 locals in the stands. However I think a lot has to do with the fact that Averett has only been playing football since 2000 and with the exception of the 2005 and 2006 seasons, the excitment hasn't been there. Sometimes I don't think any of the students came (especially in 2007 when they went 0-10.

We live close to Christopher Newport University and everyone knows about them. The two times Averett played there, the home side was packed and seemed to be standing room only on the sidelines. Only saw that at Averett the one season they shared the conference championship with CNU.

I just wonder is there more that the schools could do to attract interest in the local towns and surrounding towns?

I wrote about Trine's efforts at this last year ... they basically started going to other people's events and going out to local community groups to build rapport. So instead of 'hey you, come to our football games' it sounded like 'hi, let's be friends, and once we're friends, you'll realize I play football and you'll want to support the team without being sold on it."

Something to that effect.

I think smaller towns are somewhat predisposed to the sense of community where "townies" might take an interest. Especially where high schools are big, there ought to be more overlap between teams. A partnership of announcing each other's games over the speaker or letting the popular local HS play on your turf once a season just to get people on campus and familiar with the stadium.

People have to take an interest in your team for one reason or another. If there's no connection, I can see why they don't come.

Some schools are very student-crowd dependent, which is good, but it can beget embarassingly small crowds on fall break week.

I've oft wondered the same things, so I'm interested in the discussion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 20, 2009, 11:14:54 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 18, 2009, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on September 18, 2009, 02:24:09 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on September 18, 2009, 01:03:02 PM
Quote from this weeks ATN:

QuoteThat said, perhaps the most interesting bit of feedback came from a prominent player on a Texas team. In part, he wrote of Mount Union:

"If they were to play Hardin-Simmons or UMHB to start off the season it would a different story as you can tell HSU and UMHB aren't afraid of opening up going up North to play football because we realize that no other team gives us a good look until we play against each other."

Have their coach call up Coach Kehres.  I'm sure he would be willing to set something up.  Or how about take of business on the field and MUC will see you in Salem some day?
I like the sentiment here.  UMHB has traveled and played home and home series' with Willamette and with UWW (and wanted to again from what I gather); HSU has played 4 with Linfield.  Both teams are willing to spend the coin and schedule the strong teams for the out of conference games.  Otherwise they're playing NAIA games.  And It has paid off; UMHB has taken care of business and made it to play MUC in the playoffs once and UWW twice, but don't miss the point that because of where HSU and UMHB are, people don't really get a feel for how good they are or aren't until they play one another.  And let's be honest, normally they're playing that game for the conference title and who gets the home game for the rematch in the first round (if both teams finish with no more than 1 loss).

In fairness to all parties involved, MUC is a member of the 10-team Ohio Athletic Conference. They have one non-conference date that can be filled in the first 2 weeks of the season.  They have played a former MUC coach when he took the head job at Averett (VA) a home-and-away in 2006 & 2007 and St John Fisher (NY), a quality East Region opponent in a home-and-away series, in 2008 & 2009.  You cannot fault those series.

The ASC, home of HSU and UMHB, is rumored to have Concordia Texas adding football in 2011.  That makes a 9-conference game schedule.  Same challenges there...

I hope that both UMHB and HSU can find quality non-conference (hopefully D-III) games.  Maybe we shall see an MUC/UMHB or HSU non-conference game.

Ralph, I agree with you for the most part. But MUC could have done better than Averett and Wash. U. had they really wanted to. But their other recent two-year series were UW-Whitewater and SJF, neither of which are weak opponents.

Another thing is that HSU and UMHB and Linfield and Willamette and even the UW schools are all resigned to spending the money it costs to travel for games. MUC -- geographically -- doesn't have to do that, though none of the series above are nearby. I think they have tried to get Wittenberg or Wooster to take that game in the past with no luck. I don't know how far and wide MUC searches for that game, but I don't think there's an unlimited list of teams that want to play them. (though I bet Rowan would. I bet CNU would. Wesley always needs games.)

There are some elite teams that will duck other elite teams in the regular season, though, so that's not a complete figment of the imagination.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 21, 2009, 12:28:53 AM
Thanks for the comment on MUC and WUSTL.

In 2004-05, when MUC played WUSTL, I thought of WUSTL as a stronger team than they are now.  That series must have been scheduled 1-2 years earlier, when WashU was still coming off a Pool B bid in 1999.  (Wash U was 7-2/3-0, not 6-3/2-0, in 2001.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mugsy on September 21, 2009, 12:48:21 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 20, 2009, 10:53:17 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 18, 2009, 03:47:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 18, 2009, 12:28:47 AM
Heyyyyy TGP ... that pic wasn't there the first time.

Doesn't the ball roll off the field into the water though?

Well truth be told the lake is about 1/2 to 1 mile from the Boz (up Rts 5 & 20). 

Even before I'd seen the field, I was kidding. There should at least be a some stands between the water and the edge of the field.  ;)

Although at Chowan, extra points kicked would roll down a hill and into a lake. I think I've seen the water feature at least one other place.

No lie... my freshman year our JV team at Wheaton had a scrimmage against Joliet Correctional.  That's right... inside the prison facilities.  After our first touchdown, the extra point went over the wall since one endzone was only 7 yards deep due to buttin' up against the prison wall.  As the ball sailed over the wall one of the Joliet players yelled "I'll get that..."  ;D :P

btw: Several of the Wheaton coaching staff suited up for the game as well, including Coach Swider.  This was back in 1985.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on September 21, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
QuoteI think I've seen the water feature at least one other place

Lebanon Valley has man-made pools with fountains behind one goal post.  A good kick can net you a splash down.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on September 23, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM
How about this for toughest job...

Football coach at Swarthmore, New Jersey City, Blackburn, Principia and Colorado College...

These aren't tough jobs, they haven't lost a game in years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 24, 2009, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: Knightstalker on September 23, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM
How about this for toughest job...

Football coach at Swarthmore, New Jersey City, Blackburn, Principia and Colorado College...

These aren't tough jobs, they haven't lost a game in years.

Funny.

At least the coaches get to spend time with their families now!

Too much?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 24, 2009, 09:21:14 AM
Got a lot of great feedback all of a sudden.

Here's an excerpt from one of last week's more interesting responses:

QuoteKeith, 
Nice story on Skip Bandini and part time coaching in Div III.  Probably did not have room to include it or maybe Skip did not mention it but he was an outstanding player in the the NEFC at Massachusetts Maritime Academy a Capt and an All League All Conference offensive tackle. I know because I had to line up across from him everyday my freshman year at MMA as a defensive tackle. 

I learned alot playing across from Skip, who we youngies used to call the "Boston Maniac" (out of eashot), the only thing you could do to piss him off worse than occasionally beating him was to not go 100% and try and beat him each time.  He is the quintessential Div III player. 

Thanks to in no small part to Skip the group of us in that freshman class (graduating class of 1984) had 1 of the best (if not the best) 4 year records at MMA.  We ended that freshman year with a 6-3 record after playing the 1st 6 games with 23 freshman and 7 seniors including Skip.  The annual training cruise that year got delayed and all the other football players were on a cruise for the 1st 8 weeks of the season.  We lost only to Plymouth State in the opening game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 24, 2009, 05:21:43 PM
Quote---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Nice Article
Date:    Tue, September 22, 2009 11:04 pm
To:      keith@d3football.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was a great article on some coaches in the NEFC , I played at UMass 
Dartmouth and coached with Bill Kavanaugh for a couple of years !!!!!! I
enjoy  reading your articles and your love for division 3 athletics is shared by
many  people

Kevin
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dlippiel on September 25, 2009, 08:23:55 AM
K-Mack great write up on the courage bowl. What an inspirational story and valuable game. As much as all of us love this game of football and the D3 teams that play it, the Courage bowl really helps put life in perpective and create awareness about these amazing children. Great write up! Dave (dlippiel) Lippiello
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on September 25, 2009, 10:46:55 AM
Kmack,

Thank you for bringing the Courage Bowl to our attention.  I really applaud both schools for trying to bring in life experiences that will last a lifetime for everyone involved.  Personally, I was able to have some of those experiences while playing at Hampden-Sydney with a man named Walter Simms.  He inspired the film "Shorty" and he has been affiliated with the HSC program for over 30 years.  It really keeps things in perspective when you are around people that have physical and mental challenges.  Thank you for bringing things to the Around the Nation this year that keep the games in perspective.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on September 26, 2009, 08:39:26 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 24, 2009, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: Knightstalker on September 23, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM
How about this for toughest job...

Football coach at Swarthmore, New Jersey City, Blackburn, Principia and Colorado College...

These aren't tough jobs, they haven't lost a game in years.

Funny.

At least the coaches get to spend time with their families now!

Too much?

I don't know about the other schools but NJCU did the right by coach Jeter.  They kept him on as Compliance Officer and he is teaching a couple of classes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2009, 02:30:22 PM
Swarthmore coach Pete Alvanos was hired as head coach at Hamilton that offseason. Colorado College coach Bob Bodor is an assistant high school coach ... but in Hawaii so that might soften the blow.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on September 27, 2009, 03:46:31 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on September 21, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
QuoteI think I've seen the water feature at least one other place

Lebanon Valley has man-made pools with fountains behind one goal post.  A good kick can net you a splash down.

That would be the north goal post. For years I've been lobbying the powers-that-be to have the fountains erupt for each LVC score ... but to no avail.  ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on September 28, 2009, 10:53:47 AM
Great analysis of the potential surprise teams this year. The great thing about D3 is every team gets the opportunity to prove themselves.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 29, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on September 27, 2009, 03:46:31 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on September 21, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
QuoteI think I've seen the water feature at least one other place

Lebanon Valley has man-made pools with fountains behind one goal post.  A good kick can net you a splash down.

That would be the north goal post. For years I've been lobbying the powers-that-be to have the fountains erupt for each LVC score ... but to no avail.  ::)

Great idea, much cooler than any cannon you could shoot off with each score!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 29, 2009, 02:55:27 AM
Per TGP, some good thoughts on rivalries I might have missed. I think someone else mentioned Stagg Hat, probably should've been on last week's list of specialty/trophy games.

QuoteProbably not the same level of interest as the Courage Bowl, Shoes, Cortaca, etc but Rochester competes against Hobart every year for the "Centennial Cup" which was established to commerate the 100-game annivesary between Hobart and Rochester.

The Lyco-Susquehanna "Stagg Hat" game sounded interesting and probably hasn't had the coverage of some of the more "high profile" rivalry / theme games
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 29, 2009, 02:57:17 AM
An e-mail on the Week 1 (second column of the year) ATN I forgot to share:

Quote---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: great article
Date:    Tue, September 15, 2009 8:30 pm
To:      keith@d3football.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Keith, great article about TCNJ Coach Ham and Buff States Coach. My
family has had numerous brothers, sister, sister-in-laws, nephews and nieces
all graduate from Trenton State college. (yes I still call it by its past
name). It is a great institution as I am sure Buff State is. What you should
know also is that Coach Ham is not just a Head football coach. He has always
had an open door policy for any TCNJ student weather you are playing sports
there or not. He has helped countless students find their way to success
both on the field and off. Just wanted to add my two cents.

Thanks for the great article!!

Mark
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OxyBob on September 29, 2009, 08:01:08 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 24, 2009, 09:19:32 AM
Quote from: Knightstalker on September 23, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2009, 11:03:09 PM
How about this for toughest job...

Football coach at Swarthmore, New Jersey City, Blackburn, Principia and Colorado College...

These aren't tough jobs, they haven't lost a game in years.

Funny.

At least the coaches get to spend time with their families now!

Too much?

Then of course there are the coaches who go a different direction...

Tom Coughlin Retires From Family To Spend More Time With Team (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/tom_coughlin_retires_from_family)

OxyBob
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on September 29, 2009, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 29, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on September 27, 2009, 03:46:31 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on September 21, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
QuoteI think I've seen the water feature at least one other place

Lebanon Valley has man-made pools with fountains behind one goal post.  A good kick can net you a splash down.

That would be the north goal post. For years I've been lobbying the powers-that-be to have the fountains erupt for each LVC score ... but to no avail.  ::)

Great idea, much cooler than any cannon you could shoot off with each score!

If you add explosions it would be like depth charges going off.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on September 29, 2009, 03:53:53 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on September 29, 2009, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 29, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on September 27, 2009, 03:46:31 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on September 21, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
QuoteI think I've seen the water feature at least one other place

Lebanon Valley has man-made pools with fountains behind one goal post.  A good kick can net you a splash down.

That would be the north goal post. For years I've been lobbying the powers-that-be to have the fountains erupt for each LVC score ... but to no avail.  ::)

Great idea, much cooler than any cannon you could shoot off with each score!

If you add explosions it would be like depth charges going off.

The "depth charge" effect would seriously annoy the Australian black swans who have a shelter at this pond. They're already ornery enough and have been known to chase people and peck at the tires of passing vehicles.  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Major Rev on October 01, 2009, 11:00:05 AM
Loved the podcast about the 'best of the rest' this week!  Things seem to be shaking up some in the South Region.  October is going to be INTERESTING!  Hardin-Simmons and Centre will get their tests sho nuf!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 01, 2009, 12:41:21 PM
A new wave of feedback coming this week, but here's that one I promised last week:

QuoteKeith,

I just wanted to thank you for not only the props in your 10 Best column today (Sep.
17), but also for a couple shout-outs you gave the Pacific Northwest.  I didn't
actually see this until I had a flood of emails come in from friends around the
area, but it's always nice to hear someone remember the guys that didn't win it all.
I will say, however, that you are exactly right - I left the game with no regrets.
I thank you again for throwing that out there.

I hope you have great rest of the week, and keep an eye on my 'Cats this year.  They
look like they might have something special again based on what I saw last weekend
against the Cowboys.  There was chemistry there I haven't seen in 5 years.  I know
it was only game 1, but coming from someone who knows what it's like to trust your
team, there was a lot of trust out there on Saturday.

Thanks again Keith,

Tyler R. Matthews
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on October 01, 2009, 01:15:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 01, 2009, 12:41:21 PM
A new wave of feedback coming this week, but here's that one I promised last week:

QuoteKeith,

I just wanted to thank you for not only the props in your 10 Best column today (Sep.
17), but also for a couple shout-outs you gave the Pacific Northwest.  I didn't
actually see this until I had a flood of emails come in from friends around the
area, but it's always nice to hear someone remember the guys that didn't win it all.
I will say, however, that you are exactly right - I left the game with no regrets.
I thank you again for throwing that out there.

I hope you have great rest of the week, and keep an eye on my 'Cats this year.  They
look like they might have something special again based on what I saw last weekend
against the Cowboys.  There was chemistry there I haven't seen in 5 years.  I know
it was only game 1, but coming from someone who knows what it's like to trust your
team, there was a lot of trust out there on Saturday.

Thanks again Keith,

Tyler R. Matthews


Awesome!  Ty is a great person and Linfield is lucky to still have him involved with the 'Cats (doing Color on most of the broadcasts this season).  Go 'Cats!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 01, 2009, 06:23:44 PM
Hey, was reading this kinda-cool story on Harvard's first homecoming, until I got to the D3 cheapshot and stopped on principle.

But can anyone tell me what the joke is actually supposed to mean? There are no Ivy/D3 rivalries, and if he was gonna take the Columbia shot, why not just leave D3 out of it? I think I'm missing what it was even supposed to accomplish, and not because I'm bitter :)

QuoteJIMMY GOLEN
AP Sports Writer

  CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — Harvard gave football the forward pass, the scoreboard, the uniform and the concrete stadium.

Sometimes, though, the school can be a little slow in getting around to things.

The nation's oldest university, which has been handing out homework since 1636 and handing off footballs since 1874, will host its first homecoming this fall, a potential new tradition designed to attract alumni to campus in years that The Game is played at Yale.

"I think fan support would increase from those who might otherwise have chosen to do one of the many things Cambridge (and) Boston have to offer on a fall Saturday," Harvard sports information director Kurt Svoboda said.

Most schools, especially those in the nation's mascot and marching band midsection, long ago discovered homecoming as an opportunity for alumni to catch up with their old drinking buddies, update their sweatshirt collection and perhaps drop off a few bucks at the development office on their way back out of town.

But neither Harvard nor Yale has ever felt the need for such an occasion, in part because The Game has served the purpose so well since 1875. (Princeton is the only other Ivy League school without a homecoming.) No trumped-up rivalry with a cupcake from Division III — after all, Columbia can only play so many road games — could compete with the nation's longest-lasting rivalry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 01, 2009, 06:53:53 PM
All I can think of is that some schools will schedule a less-than-challenging opponent on Homecoming so as to ensure a W.  In his uneducated opinion, any D3 opponent must represent the epitome of a cupcake.  If Mount Union or another premiere D3 school ever had the chance to take on an Ivy, Ms. Golen might learn something.  Either that or he's dumb enough to think Columbia is a D3, or he equates Columbia's level of play to a D3 school because he thinks they totally suck, or ... ?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 01, 2009, 07:03:13 PM
I see what you/he are saying ... no weak homecoming opponent that they're pretending is a tough game.

Poorly executed at best.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on October 02, 2009, 11:55:04 AM
Thanks for making the UMAC #1!!!  It's been a long road this season starting out ranked #27 in Kickoff, but with the south back in the fold and Presentation being added, the UMAC should continue to remain at the top of the pack for years to come. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 03, 2009, 02:18:32 AM
Quote from: AO on October 02, 2009, 11:55:04 AM
Thanks for making the UMAC #1!!!  It's been a long road this season starting out ranked #27 in Kickoff, but with the south back in the fold and Presentation being added, the UMAC should continue to remain at the top of the pack for years to come. ;D

+1 k

(speaking of long roads)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Wabash Fiji on October 03, 2009, 11:19:18 PM
I do not understand why Case Western Reserve is ranked so high.... They have an EASY schedule, and their wins have not been that impressive. Wabash should be ranked higher than Case.... especially because Wabash has a tougher schedule (because of Wittenberg) and the fact that Wabash has eliminated Case from the playoffs for the past 2 years... just a thought

WAF!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on October 03, 2009, 11:24:25 PM
To be fair, Wabash hasn't played anybody yet either.  Case has the fish stringer game against Wooster next weekend and Wabash gets Wittenberg the week after.  We're all excited, WF.  Be patient, friend...It'll sort itself out. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Wabash Fiji on October 03, 2009, 11:31:07 PM
Yes, I agree... We have not played anyone either. I just believe we are the better team.... guess we'll have to knock them out for the 3rd year in a row!

WAF!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 04, 2009, 10:04:03 AM
    
QuoteRe: Front-page surveys
« Reply #158 on: Yesterday at 08:41:06 pm »
   
Which Triple Take category does Bethel fit best this week?
None of the above:   26.1%
Game of the Week:   25.8%
They'll be on your radar:   25.5%
Upset special:   21.6%

333 votes

As I looked at the distribution of the votes from the previous Front-page Survey, this has to be the most random distribution of votes that I can recall.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 04, 2009, 08:25:59 PM
  K-Mack how long did they keep you in the press box after the game? Sorry I missed you but I have been told that you sounded great doing the commentary ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2009, 09:57:05 PM
Quote from: Wabash Fiji on October 03, 2009, 11:31:07 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 03, 2009, 11:24:25 PM
Quote from: Wabash Fiji on October 03, 2009, 11:19:18 PM
I do not understand why Case Western Reserve is ranked so high.... They have an EASY schedule, and their wins have not been that impressive. Wabash should be ranked higher than Case.... especially because Wabash has a tougher schedule (because of Wittenberg) and the fact that Wabash has eliminated Case from the playoffs for the past 2 years... just a thought

WAF!

To be fair, Wabash hasn't played anybody yet either.  Case has the fish stringer game against Wooster next weekend and Wabash gets Wittenberg the week after.  We're all excited, WF.  Be patient, friend...It'll sort itself out. 

Yes, I agree... We have not played anyone either. I just believe we are the better team.... guess we'll have to knock them out for the 3rd year in a row!

WAF!

Well since you're posting here and not on Top 25, I assume you're asking me ... I have the two pinned together in the top 25 pretty much since the start of the season, with Wabash one spot ahead. I think they were 14/15 this week ... I guess not all that far from 10/11.

Honestly I don't think either of you play the caliber of opponents of a lot of the teams in the top 10, and even if you go unbeaten, I'm going to have a hard time moving you up higher than teams with similar records but playing against better competition.

... If I had to guess why so high, I think a lot of these early rankings seem to be a reaction to where teams start off the season, and some kind of belief that you can't drop a team from 10th to out of the poll on a single loss. I don't really function that way, I try to re-evaluate everything as often as I can.

So if Case starts the season, say, 18th, and then eight teams ahead of them lose a game in the first five weeks, does that automatically make Case the 10th best team in the country? That's the question we have to ask ourselves.

To be quite honest, there are cases like Bethel at 2-2 with a last-second loss to No. 4 Wheaton and a two-point loss to No. 6 St. John's where Case and Wabash and Washington & Jefferson haven't played (and won't play) one team that good. Ohio Northern is 2-2 with losses to No. 1 Mount Union and No. 13 Otterbein (I think). Millsaps' losses are by a hair to Mississippi College and DePauw.

Winning games is the ultimate goal, but strength of schedule is a difficult thing to evaluate, and it's important to keep in mind when comparing teams. On one hand you can only play the teams you schedule. But on the other, I'm not necessarily going to reward a team for being 4-0 against a much-less challenging schedule than someone else is 3-1 against.

And then there's this Pat-ism ... it's not who you lost to, it's who you beat.

I could go on ...

cc: top 25 thread
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DutchFan2004 on October 04, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
You raise a great point Keith.  I do have a question about this though.  Not knowing and not following the other regions like you gurus in the know.  Does Hardin-Simmons being ranked so high for preseason really rate being a quality win with the record they now have?  At 1-4 with only a win over a 2-3 team can you call that a quality win this year.  I am not saying that HS is a slouch but when you talk of quality wins would a win over HS this year be a quality win.  I don't know the particulars on why HS is not playing up to the way they were expected to play.  Just curious on why or how you look at things.  To me a win against a quality program is not always a quality win as the program can have a down or rebuilding year.  Such as the Dutch experienced last year.  Just like to hear what your thoughts are. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Wabash Fiji on October 04, 2009, 10:30:23 PM
I totally get what you are saying... I don't think Wabash is a top 5, or even top 10 team. I think they fall somewhere around 13-15. I understand that they really don't have much competition because of a weak division... I was just curious why Case was always edging them out...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 04, 2009, 10:51:00 PM
http://www.ascsports.org/news/2009/7/28/asc_football_preseason09.aspx]HSU QB Justin Feaster was pre-season player of the year in the ASC.

He left the Linfield game with an injury, played sparingly in the Louisiana College game and is out for the season.

HSU also lost starting WR ZaVious Robbins, National Football Foundation Campbell Trophy nominee, in the Linfield game.

Looking at HSU in summer 2009, this was a team that lost in the last minute, twice, to UMHB in the 2008 season.

It made perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: golden_dome on October 05, 2009, 12:02:50 AM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on October 04, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
You raise a great point Keith.  I do have a question about this though.  Not knowing and not following the other regions like you gurus in the know.  Does Hardin-Simmons being ranked so high for preseason really rate being a quality win with the record they now have?  At 1-4 with only a win over a 2-3 team can you call that a quality win this year.  I am not saying that HS is a slouch but when you talk of quality wins would a win over HS this year be a quality win.  I don't know the particulars on why HS is not playing up to the way they were expected to play.  Just curious on why or how you look at things.  To me a win against a quality program is not always a quality win as the program can have a down or rebuilding year.  Such as the Dutch experienced last year.  Just like to hear what your thoughts are. 

Hardin-Simmons has played one of the toughest schedules in the country and there are several top 25 teams who might have fared similiarly with an early stretch like that. HSU trailed #7 Linfield 20-14 at the half, and #3 UMHB 13-0 at the half. They lost in the last minute to Mississippi College (technically #30). HSU already plays in one of the nation's toughest conferences (the ASC was picked #3 in the kickoff preview) and still schedules two quality nonconference opponents.

I hope record isn't the only factor when we determine if a win is quality or not, there are plenty of other factors to consider.

But Ralph was correct, they have sustained several injuries including four guys who were legitimate all-america candidates. I had the opportunity to see them two weeks ago and they aren't the top 5 team they were in the preseason, but they were still talented. There are several top 25 teams who have won games over lesser competition who would not want to play HSU or their schedule.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2009, 12:33:06 AM
Quote from: Chris Brooks on October 05, 2009, 12:02:50 AM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on October 04, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
You raise a great point Keith.  I do have a question about this though.  Not knowing and not following the other regions like you gurus in the know.  Does Hardin-Simmons being ranked so high for preseason really rate being a quality win with the record they now have?  At 1-4 with only a win over a 2-3 team can you call that a quality win this year.  I am not saying that HS is a slouch but when you talk of quality wins would a win over HS this year be a quality win.  I don't know the particulars on why HS is not playing up to the way they were expected to play.  Just curious on why or how you look at things.  To me a win against a quality program is not always a quality win as the program can have a down or rebuilding year.  Such as the Dutch experienced last year.  Just like to hear what your thoughts are. 

Hardin-Simmons has played one of the toughest schedules in the country and there are several top 25 teams who might have fared similiarly with an early stretch like that. HSU trailed #7 Linfield 20-14 at the half, and #3 UMHB 13-0 at the half. They lost in the last minute to Mississippi College (technically #30). HSU already plays in one of the nation's toughest conferences (the ASC was picked #3 in the kickoff preview) and still schedules two quality nonconference opponents.

I hope record isn't the only factor when we determine if a win is quality or not, there are plenty of other factors to consider.

But Ralph was correct, they have sustained several injuries including four guys who were legitimate all-america candidates. I had the opportunity to see them two weeks ago and they aren't the top 5 team they were in the preseason, but they were still talented. There are several top 25 teams who have won games over lesser competition who would not want to play HSU or their schedule.

To answer the original question, briefly (I have to hit the road and record the podcast with Pat; we did it way late this week, busy Sundays on the homefronts) ... I think that's why you have to re-evaluate constantly. Because, let's say in the case of Linfield, beating Hardin-Simmons a week after they beat Whitworth looks like a strong victory. But now at 1-4, it doesn't look quite a powerful.

HSU might not be the best example because we knew from Day 1 their first five games would be killer ... but I think you have to think outside the box of "a loss equals a couple spots down in the standings" and "undefeated teams must automatically be highly ranked." At some point, of course, you have to value wins because that's what we play for, but Hardin-Simmons' first five opponents (or lets say two of Bethel's or three of ONU's) are going to be better than all 10 of some of the undefeated teams that are ranked.

And then there's the whole comparable teams from the same conference being miles apart in votes argument ... for another time though.

(more cc: top 25 thread to come I guess)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 05, 2009, 10:18:44 AM
Great podcast today Pat and Keith.  I think that you put into perspective that the Top 25 poll is not as easy as putting 25 teams on a list.  Bethel is a great example of a team that is 5 points away from being in the top 5.  It is great that they are not penalized for close losses to top 10 teams. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 06, 2009, 07:18:42 AM
Catching up on the ATN from two weeks ago...  Ten most changed conferences.

The first season of D3football.com caught the ASC in the midst of expansion.

TLU was re-classifying from D-II and added football in 1998, after discontinuing it in 1987.

The Bulldogs went 2-1 in their first three non- conference games that season before going 1-6 in the ASC.

http://www.tlu.edu/i/athletics/football/2009/2009_football_mg.pdf

Langston OK                            17 -43 L
McPherson KS                          50-34 W
Southwestern Assemblies        74-20 W

In 1999, TLU went 1-2 in the non-conference...

7 Langston (Okla.) 31
13 McPherson (Kan.) 34
53 SW Assm. of God 16

1999 was the first season for UMHB.

Louisiana College and ETBU begin play in 2000.

This was a big improvement over the early portion of the 1990's decade when the (NAIA) Texas Intercollegiate AA consisted of 6 football playing institutions, and we played double round robin to get a 10 game schedule.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 07, 2009, 04:10:59 AM
This dude is dern near my idol:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/sports/ncaafootball/17cheer.html

Ralph, good insights. I looked at the ASC for the list, but except for the loss of Austin, it's been pretty much static for the D3 years. As you noted, all the major changes took place by 2000.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 07, 2009, 08:37:39 AM
I bet that there are at least a few NFL Directors of Player Personnel or other NFL scouts of college player personnel, who have achieved this accomplishment, but of course  they have done it as a part of their jobs with the expenses having been absorbed by their employers.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 12:39:03 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams played. Only 119 to go.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: doolittledog on October 07, 2009, 05:36:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 12:39:03 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams played. Only 119 to go.

Games at 119 D3 schools?  Or 119 teams total?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2009, 06:25:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Yeah, and Psalms 119 is halfway thru the Bible.  [EDIT: You will recall that the Protestant Bible has 66 books in the Old and New Testament, but Pat went to Catholic, so it may not be as eery.]

This is getting eery!   ;)




In which conferences have you seen all of the teams?  I am sure that Gallaudet covers the ECFC.

Is there a conference, at least one of whose members, that you have not seen yet?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 07, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
So I finally managed to listen to the ATN podcast, and it was enlightening/confusing, as I might have expected any discussion of top 25 poll voting to be.

Keith, you were obviously trapped in a cave or a dungeon somewhere.   But you did a good job of concealing your efforts to free yourself from whatever restraints kept you trapped in there.  :D

I especially enjoyed the effort to recite from memory the Wesley-Delaware Valley-Kean-Cortland State transitive chain of losses.  Well done!

Ultimately, the term "leap of faith" was well used (if you'll forgive my use of the passive voice).


Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2009, 06:25:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Yeah, and Psalms 119 is halfway thru the Bible.

This is getting eery!   ;)


Yeah, and Psalms 38:7 (http://biblebrowser.com/psalms/38-7.htm) eerily describes half the posters of messages on d3football.com.   :o
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on October 07, 2009, 08:12:03 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 07, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
So I finally managed to listen to the ATN podcast, and it was enlightening/confusing, as I might have expected any discussion of top 25 poll voting to be.

Keith, you were obviously trapped in a cave or a dungeon somewhere.   But you did a good job of concealing your efforts to free yourself from whatever restraints kept you trapped in there.  :D

I especially enjoyed the effort to recite from memory the Wesley-Delaware Valley-Kean-Cortland State transitive chain of losses.  Well done!

Ultimately, the term "leap of faith" was well used (if you'll forgive my use of the passive voice).


Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2009, 06:25:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Yeah, and Psalms 119 is halfway thru the Bible.

This is getting eery!   ;)


Yeah, and Psalms 38:7 (http://biblebrowser.com/psalms/38-7.htm) eerily describes half the posters of messages on d3football.com.   :o

I would have thought that it was 38:11
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 10:44:20 PM
Keith was appearing solely by phone this week.

I haven't seen any MWC or MIAA schools.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2009, 10:53:09 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 10:44:20 PM
Keith was appearing solely by phone this week.

I haven't seen any MWC or MIAA schools.
Minnesota is a lot closer to the MWC and the MIAA than Connecticut or northern Virginia.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 11:03:53 PM
Getting there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 07, 2009, 11:04:46 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 10:44:20 PM
Keith was appearing solely by phone this week.

I haven't seen any MWC or MIAA schools.

OMG - I can actually one-up the guru on attendance! :o  I was at IWU @ Hope last year. 

If you ever want to take in an MIAA game - my treat.  If you want to save on a motel, I'll even bring my RV. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 08, 2009, 12:27:09 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.

How many teams have you seen that are now defunct?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 08, 2009, 04:52:32 PM
Keith,

Great capsules on each conference.  It looks like many of the races are playing out like the predictions in Kickoff '09.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 08, 2009, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 07, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
So I finally managed to listen to the ATN podcast, and it was enlightening/confusing, as I might have expected any discussion of top 25 poll voting to be.

Keith, you were obviously trapped in a cave or a dungeon somewhere.   But you did a good job of concealing your efforts to free yourself from whatever restraints kept you trapped in there.  :D

I especially enjoyed the effort to recite from memory the Wesley-Delaware Valley-Kean-Cortland State transitive chain of losses.  Well done!

Ultimately, the term "leap of faith" was well used (if you'll forgive my use of the passive voice).

Red,
I thought of you and some of your top 25 theory while discussing. I almost made it into another item for ATN, but ran out of gas/time. (I have it outlined though if you're interested)

The podcast sounds a lot better when Pat and I use official recording equipment ... like on weekends he didn't have to move his family into the house and my family stuff doesn't get in the way and we get to record it before midnight :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 08, 2009, 11:11:53 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 07, 2009, 11:04:46 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 10:44:20 PM
Keith was appearing solely by phone this week.

I haven't seen any MWC or MIAA schools.

OMG - I can actually one-up the guru on attendance! :o  I was at IWU @ Hope last year. 

If you ever want to take in an MIAA game - my treat.  If you want to save on a motel, I'll even bring my RV. ;)

I have been to Hope.

Pat and I listed everywhere we'd been on a Dose post last year; Every time I go somewhere new I think about finding it and updating.

I think he's got me outdone by a few schools, but together we've seen quite a few ... nearly every conference. We also have sometimes made trips to schools when games were not being played.

(for instance, I once I saw the post-game scene & field at Beloit one time while driving back to Chicago from UW-Whitewater. I also once skipped out on my wife's family in Battle Creek, Mich. to visit Olivet and Albion)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 08, 2009, 11:14:18 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 11:03:53 PM
Getting there.

You should see an MWC game this weekend. If you're ever going to, now is the time.

Quote from: HSC85 on October 08, 2009, 04:52:32 PM
Keith,

Great capsules on each conference.  It looks like many of the races are playing out like the predictions in Kickoff '09.

Thanks. I never know how useful that column is to readers; do people only care about their own team's conference, or do they want to be able to look in on races in other conferences without having to invest a lot of time following them.

Ultimately, I feel some of the latter which is why I do it.

Next week back to big ideas & interviews.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Wabash Fiji on October 09, 2009, 12:18:18 AM
loved the piece on the conferences... already pumped about the playoffs!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WSUFan on October 10, 2009, 03:56:30 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 08, 2009, 11:14:18 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 11:03:53 PM
Getting there.

You should see an MWC game this weekend. If you're ever going to, now is the time.

Quote from: HSC85 on October 08, 2009, 04:52:32 PM
Keith,

Great capsules on each conference.  It looks like many of the races are playing out like the predictions in Kickoff '09.

Thanks. I never know how useful that column is to readers; do people only care about their own team's conference, or do they want to be able to look in on races in other conferences without having to invest a lot of time following them.

Ultimately, I feel some of the latter which is why I do it.

Next week back to big ideas & interviews.

We usually get enough information from you guys... but, this is kind of like icing on the cake, so to speak. We don't have to peruse each message board and figure out how the conferences are going, we get a nice, clean wrap-up from your end!

And please, keep picking UW-L to get upset... I kinda like flying under the radar in the WIAC   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 10, 2009, 08:05:40 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 08, 2009, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 07, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
So I finally managed to listen to the ATN podcast, and it was enlightening/confusing, as I might have expected any discussion of top 25 poll voting to be.

Keith, you were obviously trapped in a cave or a dungeon somewhere.   But you did a good job of concealing your efforts to free yourself from whatever restraints kept you trapped in there.  :D

I especially enjoyed the effort to recite from memory the Wesley-Delaware Valley-Kean-Cortland State transitive chain of losses.  Well done!

Ultimately, the term "leap of faith" was well used (if you'll forgive my use of the passive voice).

Red,
I thought of you and some of your top 25 theory while discussing. I almost made it into another item for ATN, but ran out of gas/time. (I have it outlined though if you're interested)


I'll wait for the final product.  My inner OCD-wannabe has enough triggers/distractions already.

Almost surprised to learn that I'm not the only person who believes that head-to-head results trump just about everything.   :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2009, 12:17:48 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 07, 2009, 04:10:59 AM
This dude is dern near my idol:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/sports/ncaafootball/17cheer.html

Ralph, good insights. I looked at the ASC for the list, but except for the loss of Austin, it's been pretty much static for the D3 years. As you noted, all the major changes took place by 2000.

http://www.d3football.com/school/CORT/1999

As I was looking at the NJAC, I found this link to Cortland's schedule in 1999.

Look at all of the teams that were Independents in 1999.

The biggest change in D-III has been the Pool System...no doubt about it.

Team1999 RecordWhere they went
Pomona-Pitzer   7     1     .875Recommitted to the SCIAC in 2003
Westminster (Mo.)   8    2    .800SLIAC in '08 then affilaited with UMAC in '09
Buffalo State   7    3    .700Affiliated with ACFC in '04 and then NJAC in '06
Maryville (Tenn.)7    3    .700Affiliated with the USASouth in '05
Thomas More   7    3    .700Joined PresAC in 2005
Ithaca   7    4    .636E8 in 2002
Martin Luther   5    3    .625UMAC in 2008
Alfred   6    4 .600E8 in 2002
Brockport State   6    4 .600Affiliated with ACFC in '04 and NJAC in '08
Ferrum   6    4 .600USASouth in 2001
Hartwick   6    4 .600E8 in 2002
Chapman   5    4 .556Independent
Chowan   5    4 .556Last season in USASouth was 2003; now D-II CIAA
Cortland State   5    5 .500Affiliated with NJAC in 2000
Eastern Oregon   5    5 .500Now NAIA only.
Menlo   4    5    .444Affialiated with NWC in 2006
Mount Ida   3    4 .429Charter member of ECFC in 2009
Principia   3    5    .375SLIAC in 2008; did not field a team in 2009
Greensboro   3    6    .333USASouth in 2001
Methodist   3    7 .300USASouth in 2001
Maranatha Baptist   2    6 .250Charter member Northern Athletics Conference in 2008
Colorado College   2    7 .222SCAC in 2007; Discontinued the sport in 2009
Blackburn   2    8 .200SLIAC in 2008; Discontinued the sport in 2009
St. John Fisher   1    8 .111E8 in 2002
Oberlin   0    10    .000Recommitted the NCAC in 2000

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2009, 12:58:36 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 08, 2009, 11:14:18 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 11:03:53 PM
Getting there.

You should see an MWC game this weekend. If you're ever going to, now is the time.


Unfortunately, Monmouth is about a nine-hour drive from me.  Or maybe fortunately, because in retrospect that was not a game that was worth that trip. :)

Yes, I have seen both Swarthmore and Jersey City State. Also seen Principia and Blackburn. I didn't include Swat and JCSC/NJCU in my count.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on October 11, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
Quote from: WSUFan on October 10, 2009, 03:56:30 AM
And please, keep picking UW-L to get upset... I kinda like flying under the radar in the WIAC   ;)

The control tower is reporting that the Eagles have (crashed) landed.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on October 11, 2009, 10:19:15 AM
How rare is it for a team to run 100+ offense plays in a regulation game? Huntingdon has now done it twice in a row with exactly 100 against both Louisiana College and Millsaps and has had one opponent do it, Maryville with 104. I looked back through six seasons of our boxscores and the biggest numbers I found were 88 and 89 with 80 being broken only a few times. I'm not sure if anyone knows or has the time or inclination to research, but it would be interesting to know if what we have done is very unusual.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 11, 2009, 11:24:42 AM
Quote from: Hawks88 on October 11, 2009, 10:19:15 AM
How rare is it for a team to run 100+ offense plays in a regulation game? Huntingdon has now done it twice in a row with exactly 100 against both Louisiana College and Millsaps and has had one opponent do it, Maryville with 104. I looked back through six seasons of our boxscores and the biggest numbers I found were 88 and 89 with 80 being broken only a few times. I'm not sure if anyone knows or has the time or inclination to research, but it would be interesting to know if what we have done is very unusual.

That's pretty sick!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 11, 2009, 05:31:45 PM
Yesterday Middlebury ran 99 offensive plays - 74 of them were passes, yet only scored 10 points. The flow of that game would have been interesting to see.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 11, 2009, 07:40:49 PM
Quote from: Hawks88 on October 11, 2009, 10:19:15 AM
How rare is it for a team to run 100+ offense plays in a regulation game? Huntingdon has now done it twice in a row with exactly 100 against both Louisiana College and Millsaps and has had one opponent do it, Maryville with 104. I looked back through six seasons of our boxscores and the biggest numbers I found were 88 and 89 with 80 being broken only a few times. I'm not sure if anyone knows or has the time or inclination to research, but it would be interesting to know if what we have done is very unusual.

I can confirm that I do not have the inclination to research, but it is interesting.

I think 90 is the mark of a really good game.

A few years back when the timing rules were shortened, the average fell by 12 to 66 I think ... so if that's true, 78 is an average game?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 11, 2009, 07:41:44 PM
Not that this is news, but if we ever organize that list of D3 alumni how we want it, this is handy:

QuoteMcDaniels attended John Carroll University, where he played quarterback and wide receiver for the Blue Streaks from 1995-98. He was a college teammate of Patriots director of player personnel Nick Caserio, who played quarterback for John Carroll from 1996-99.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 15, 2009, 02:18:35 PM
K-Mack,

Great article in ATN this week.  I really liked how you gave a balanced look at what can happen on any given Saturday.  My team was on the wrong end of that ODAC tiebreaker in 2008.  But I really have to give credit to Randolph Macon for not giving up and winning games to gain the championship opportunity. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Devil Badger Gopher on October 15, 2009, 05:57:57 PM
You roke my heart all over again with the reminder of the WIAC 2002 season.  I was playing on the O-Line when the option was called and we did not get it done.  Thank you for the dagger!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 15, 2009, 08:58:31 PM
Quote from: Devil Badger Gopher on October 15, 2009, 05:57:57 PM
You roke my heart all over again with the reminder of the WIAC 2002 season.  I was playing on the O-Line when the option was called and we did not get it done.  Thank you for the dagger!

Yikes, sorry.

If it makes you feel any better, talking to Maynard about losing brought back memories of times my team didn't finish, in the mid-90s.

I still refuse to believe we actually lost a couple games. I know we didn't have more points than the other team, but we were better.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on October 17, 2009, 10:59:39 PM
Quote from: Hawks88 on October 11, 2009, 10:19:15 AM
How rare is it for a team to run 100+ offense plays in a regulation game? Huntingdon has now done it twice in a row with exactly 100 against both Louisiana College and Millsaps and has had one opponent do it, Maryville with 104. I looked back through six seasons of our boxscores and the biggest numbers I found were 88 and 89 with 80 being broken only a few times. I'm not sure if anyone knows or has the time or inclination to research, but it would be interesting to know if what we have done is very unusual.
Make that now three in a row. 102 offensive plays for Huntingdon today with 784 total yards along with 91 offensive plays for Westminster.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 18, 2009, 02:25:21 AM
I have no clue where to put this post, but thought readers here might be interested.

This coming Saturday is extremely important for playoffs in the North region.  In the HCAC, Mt. St. Joe (4-0) is at (3-0) Franklin, likely for the AQ (I have trouble believing that (3-0) Manchester, loser to Kalamazoo and Earlham, is really a contender).

In the NCAC, (3-1) Wabash visits (3-0) Wooster.  Wooster has a near zero chance of a Pool C, but a win keeps them alive for the AQ.  A Wabash win (after the loss to Witt) keeps their Pool C hopes alive.  A Wabash win, plus a Woo win over Witt might mean a 3-way tie (though 'gheny, among others, might demur); I have no clue what the NCAC procedure is for a 3-way tie where each is 1-1 against the others.

In the OAC, 4-1 Capital goes to 5-0 Otterbein in the battle for Columbus (and after the egg OSU laid against Purdue Saturday, it might be the 'all-division' title! ;D).  Assuming MUC takes the AQ, this could be the battle for a C.

Finally, there are only two (conference) undefeated teams left in the CCIW - Wheaton battles it out at NCC, with the winner in the driver's seat for the AQ, the loser still viable for a C.  (Of course, both still have to face IWU, the only other team with less than two losses, but even my green-tinted glasses say these are the two top teams in the CCIW.  Though I'd happily munch crow on that one! ;))
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on October 18, 2009, 05:23:54 PM
Likewise, since I can't reply in the "Front-page Surveys" thread, I'll post it here.

Did anyone else grin at the irony of the three "pick the upset" choices on the front page?  Two of them ended in the upset and the third went to OT.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 18, 2009, 05:26:05 PM
Quote from: altor on October 18, 2009, 05:23:54 PM
Likewise, since I can't reply in the "Front-page Surveys" thread, I'll post it here.

Did anyone else grin at the irony of the three "pick the upset" choices on the front page?  Two of them ended in the upset and the third went to OT.


And a majority of voters went with the OT non-upset! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on October 18, 2009, 06:32:17 PM
Well, at least a plurality.  </pedant>  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 18, 2009, 07:30:45 PM
Quote from: altor on October 18, 2009, 06:32:17 PM
Well, at least a plurality.  </pedant>  :P

You're right about the final tally.  I hadn't checked the posting in 'Front Page Surveys'; the last I'd noticed before Pat made it final, the Johnnies had about 51% of the votes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D3_DPUFan on October 19, 2009, 10:30:03 AM
For what it's worth...that is a GREAT picture on the front page of the site...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 19, 2009, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: D3_DPUFan on October 19, 2009, 10:30:03 AM
For what it's worth...that is a GREAT picture on the front page of the site...
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d3football.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2Fsju-blaser-dive-rw4-451.jpg&hash=a0cfbe9b0ed7c9b2be44fef82a472f370fdc61dd)
Yeah, okay, levitation is cool, but no front page will ever top the one from a month or so ago with both "A Chorus Line" and "Helmet on Backwards."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on October 19, 2009, 02:31:16 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 19, 2009, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: D3_DPUFan on October 19, 2009, 10:30:03 AM
For what it's worth...that is a GREAT picture on the front page of the site...
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d3football.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2Fsju-blaser-dive-rw4-451.jpg&hash=a0cfbe9b0ed7c9b2be44fef82a472f370fdc61dd)
Yeah, okay, levitation is cool, but no front page will ever top the one from a month or so ago with both "A Chorus Line" and "Helmet on Backwards."

It's a bird, no it's a plane, it's a frog.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on October 19, 2009, 11:07:33 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on October 19, 2009, 02:31:16 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 19, 2009, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: D3_DPUFan on October 19, 2009, 10:30:03 AM
For what it's worth...that is a GREAT picture on the front page of the site...
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.d3football.com%2Fimages%2F2009%2Fsju-blaser-dive-rw4-451.jpg&hash=a0cfbe9b0ed7c9b2be44fef82a472f370fdc61dd)
Yeah, okay, levitation is cool, but no front page will ever top the one from a month or so ago with both "A Chorus Line" and "Helmet on Backwards."

It's a bird, no it's a plane, it's a frog.

Not bird, nor plane, nor even frog ... I think it might be Underdog. (Sorry for the rephrasing, but a direct quote would not have been applicable.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 22, 2009, 06:39:04 AM
Hi guys,
My all-star column isn't live yet, but in it I promise you can come here for some more details on things, including Ryan Carlson's nightmare ASG scenario. Here's his e-mail to me in full for those of you who are die-hard enough to go the extra mile :)

I asked Ryan to write this up for me, he did not come at me complaining. Just so the tone is clear.

QuoteHey Keith,

This did happen over 10 years ago so my memory might be a little fuzzy.
After my senior year at Linfield, 1998, I received an invitation from
USAfootball.com to participate in a Division III all-star game.  You have
to remember that this is really at a time when the Internet was still
pretty fresh in terms of content and what was available in terms of .com
site's history.  USAfootball.com at the time was ran by a guy named Dennis
Wilson who was covering small college football in a similar vein of Don
Hansen's site in where USAfootball.com would put out a pre/post season
all-american teams, rankings, news, etc.  USAfootball.com was also in the
business of putting on a few of these all-star games after each season but
the catch was this is a player paid fee game.  That means the play has to
pay a fee to take part that covers the food, hotel, overhead and on top of
that you also had to pay for the airfare.  It was a pretty expensive deal
when was all said and done.

Needless to say, I was pretty excited to get invited to an "all-star" game
and so was Linfield.  1998 was Linfield's first year in division III and
so it was a big deal for a player to get invited to a post-season game.
Linfield put up the $400-$500 and I was officially put on the west roster
and received a packet of information about the week of the all-star game.
Per the itinerary the players would have a media day where we would would
talk to local media about the game, a combine with professional scouts
(arena, smaller loges, NFL), practices,  we would participate in a local
Mardi Gras parade, and a number of what sounded like a well organized and
planned out events.

Upon reaching New Orleans, I met a few guys from UW-Stout at the airport
and we headed out to the hotel.  When we arrived the hotel was actually a
flea bag motel near the airport.  My roommate, a punter from Simpson, was
already there and we talked for a bit.  The hotel was very sketchy but I
wasn't too worried at that point. That evening was suppose to be the
"media day" event in the "conference room".  The players went down to the
conference room which was actually a dingy, dark, mold infested basement
where a 1/2 full keg of warm flat beer and a couple of metal folding
chairs greeted us.  At that point, the players looked around the room and
we all noticed there was only about 20 of us and of course no media.  The
confirmed roster we saw on USAfootball.com before we flew out to the game
listed about 70 players to make up the two rosters.  At that point we all
knew something was up.  Mr Wilson arrived for a few minutes talk about the
week ahead and how great it was going to be and left us about 5 minutes
later.

The players started talking about if more guys were going to show and how
we all felt this event wasn't on the level.  The next morning there were
about 5 more players (around 25 total) and we all kind of knew this wasn't
going down like we had hoped.  After we held a practice or, something they
called a practice, the players once again met and requested Mr. Wilson to
be present.  We point-blanked asked him why there where only enough guys
to barely make up one roster and expressed with him how disappointed this
had become with how unorganized this whole event was.  Mr. Wilson tried
his best to dance around the questions and talked about how he could get a
local community college play against us and things were not that bad.
Pretty much, the players walked.  A number of guys just caught a flight
out that night or the next morning or turned the remainder of their trip
into a vacation.

It was just a bummer because we all just wanted one more shot to play
against our peers at the end of our college careers.  On top of that,
Linfield had been so generous to pay for the trip and it winds up being a
complete bust.  It was just a bad way to wrap up college football as a
player.

One thing I do want to make clear is that I'm not saying don't take part
in player fee all-star games but do your research and make sure the
organizer has a positive track record and that they have a history on
delivering on their promises.

Thanks,
Ryan
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on October 22, 2009, 03:48:22 PM
Keith,

The one thing I did leave out was that I did meet some really great guys and I did get to hit Bourbon Street the weekend before fat Tuesday so it wasn't a total loss.  But from the football side...it was just a bad deal.  Thanks for asking me to share my story.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OxyBob on October 22, 2009, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on October 22, 2009, 03:48:22 PM
The one thing I did leave out was that I did meet some really great guys and I did get to hit Bourbon Street the weekend before fat Tuesday so it wasn't a total loss. 

Bourbon Street is fun, especially if you enjoy the combined stench of stale beer, piss, and vomit.

OxyBob
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on October 22, 2009, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: OxyBob on October 22, 2009, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on October 22, 2009, 03:48:22 PM
The one thing I did leave out was that I did meet some really great guys and I did get to hit Bourbon Street the weekend before fat Tuesday so it wasn't a total loss. 

Bourbon Street is fun, especially if you enjoy the combined stench of stale beer, piss, and vomit.

OxyBob

What can i say Bob...guys will wade through anything to see some girls bare their chests from a balcony. 

/science
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 22, 2009, 05:46:55 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on October 22, 2009, 03:48:22 PM
Keith,

The one thing I did leave out was that I did meet some really great guys and I did get to hit Bourbon Street the weekend before fat Tuesday so it wasn't a total loss.  But from the football side...it was just a bad deal.  Thanks for asking me to share my story.

Thanks for letting me share it ... in full.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 22, 2009, 06:16:48 PM
If you are one of the die-hards who reads my column as soon as it goes, I have to cop to an egregious error. The man putting on the Jan. 8, 2011 game ... I got his name wrong. It is Rod Myers, and he is President/CEO of United Sports Media Holdings and founder of Vision Sports Television Network.

That would make my list of 10 worst ATN errors of the D3football.com era
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 23, 2009, 12:26:24 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 22, 2009, 06:16:48 PM
Along the same lines, I still haven't moved No. 13 North Central (5-1) ahead of No. 20 Ohio Northern (4-2) on my ballot. Can't see why I would ignore the Polar Bears' 28-19 Week 1 win against the Cardinals. But if North Central beats No. 3 Wheaton on Saturday and ONU struggles with John Carroll (3-3, with a one-score loss to No. 14 Capital last week), I might have to consider it.

I realize there's a school of thought that weighs more recent performances more heavily than early-season games. I'm very much in the head-to-head results trump everything camp. It would take quite the stumble by ONU to get me to cross over into North Central-is-better territory, even this deep into the season.

Conversely, a North Central win over Wheaton might cause me to downgrade both CCIW contenders, behind four OAC teams. Mount Union, Capital and Otterbein to date have each put itself ahead of ONU in the pecking order so far.


KMack- I loved your ATN column this week but chose this bit for a little more comment. I think your assumpitons preclude the possibility that some teams simply get better as the season goes on. Perhaps NCC is better now than they were in week 1? If they beat Wheaton, why would you move both down?  Last year Wheaton was a top ten team and lost 2 in a row to drop out of the rankings. They backed into the playoffs and made the quarterfinals, beating  a Franklin team convincingly that eliminated NCC a week earlier (who had soundly beat Wheaton). How would you have ranked franklin, wheaton, NCC if that was all regular season play? There is no question Wheaton played better football after their 2 losses and became a top ten team as they played with desperation.

Would I rank NCC ahead of ONU? probably not. If Wheaton loses at North Central Saturday would I rank them lower than ONU? probably not. Wheaton beat Bethel on the last play AT Bethel. St Johns beat Bethel on (almost) the last play AT St Johns. I think the Wheaton win over Bethel was more impressive because 1-it was at Bethel 2- it was Wheaton's first game and Bethel's 2nd. I think its one of the reasons Wheaton should be ranked ahead of St Johns. does all that go out the window if Wheaton loses to NCC?

I think its complicated and you have a tough job as a voter.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D O.C. on October 23, 2009, 10:44:25 AM
QuoteWhy don't we have an All-Star Game?

Why is the WIAC going to play each team twice?

All-Star games cost money too and that is clearly stated in everyone's opinion.

Why must OxyBob rain on every parade? How many towns can you avoid Walking Under the Influence for crying out loud?

Quotea defensive walk through on South Beach

Ha!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 24, 2009, 09:03:40 AM
Quote from: Ryan Carlson on October 22, 2009, 06:39:04 AM

Upon reaching New Orleans, . . . the hotel was actually a
flea bag motel near the airport. . . .  The hotel was very sketchy but I . . . went down to the
conference room which was actually a dingy, dark, mold infested basement
where a 1/2 full keg of warm flat beer and a couple of metal folding
chairs greeted us.

Thanks,
Ryan

As OxyBob can probably confirm, the margin between your "All Star" hotel and a Four Star hotel in the French Quarter isn't all that great.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2009, 04:38:59 AM
Hey,
I enjoy the feedback above this week guys, and want to respond, but I'm a little frazzled as I ship out for vacation tomorrow.

Along those lines, for my die-hard D3ers who take an interest in helping out parents who are exploring our level for a son, there are couple new posts on the thread devoted to that.

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4015.120

I'm certain your feedback would be appreciated.

See you all in a week. I'll be way offshore wondering who's winning, W&J or Thomas More ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 25, 2009, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2009, 04:38:59 AM
Hey,
I enjoy the feedback above this week guys, and want to respond, but I'm a little frazzled as I ship out for vacation tomorrow.

OMG!  :o How will the Washington Post survive in your absence??!?

Oh, wait--it's not doing so well in your (or Ceci Connolly's or Michael Wilbon's) presence.  ???

Um, well, . . . uh, . . . bon voyage!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OxyBob on October 25, 2009, 07:41:39 PM
Must reading: Article from The New Yorker by Malcolm Gladwell about the troubling links between football and trauma-related brain disease.

Offensive Play: How different are dogfighting and football? (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/19/091019fa_fact_gladwell)

Quote from: D O.C. on October 23, 2009, 10:44:25 AM
Why must OxyBob rain on every parade? How many towns can you avoid Walking Under the Influence for crying out loud?

Speaking of parades...

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/photogallery/view/2009-mcminnville-ufo-festival/2

OxyBob
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 28, 2009, 04:45:25 AM
Malcolm Gladwell is a touchey-feeley intellectual whose writing appeals to other touchey-feeley intellectuals and who likes to assemble in his writing a bunch of obscure facts which he somehow relates to a certain selected subject, thereby intimating or reaching an off-beat conclusion about the subject not taking into account its essence. In short your correspondent believes Gladwell is a sissy who is full of manure and should not be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on October 28, 2009, 07:59:59 AM
Gladwell happens to be a fan of football. 

This former player turned touchy feely intellectual (although I don't often feel that way) actually thinks he may have a very good point.  I heard another interview with Gladwell and he thinks the game will change dramatically and he could be correct.  I love the game the way it is, but taking a long view of history, football is still in its infancy.  As technology and information grows and society changes, for better or worse in each individual's viewpoint, is it hard to fathom that the game will be forced to change?  There are limits to helmet techonology and the players have gotten bigger, faster and stronger in the last two decades.  How many mothers (and maybe fathers) will want their kids to play at a young age if information continues to illustrate brain damage to players in its current form.  Having had mulitple concussions in football (along with torn cartilage and a dislocated shoulder), I don't doubt the results that are coming to light.  It's just very hard for me to differentiate between college alcohol consumption and football related damage sometimes.   

For the record, I hate the way QB's in the NFL are protected (especially Brady), loved Peterson's mauling of Gay on Sunday and everything about the hitting, but also think the fields (in multiple sports) should be expanded to account for the increased size and speed of the players. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 28, 2009, 03:22:14 PM
I started playing organized football in 1944. Since that time football has changed greatly - mostly due to commercial factors, not technological ones. As in the past it is expected that future changes will be driven by the professional ranks primarily for commercial reasons, and those changes will inevitably trickle down promptly to sandlot, college, high school and sub-high school football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on October 29, 2009, 08:48:34 AM
By technology I meant the ability to understand the workings of the human brain.  What if some of the information about head contact becomes more crystalized over the years because technology allows us to have better information about the impact of playing football (I plan on having my kids play, assuming I have a boy)? 

And I don't view 50 years as a lot of time in 2,000 years of human history, my view when I make this case far exceeds my potential lifetime, but were helmets introduced for solely commercial purposes? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 29, 2009, 09:44:23 AM
Sixty five years is a lot in the history of football. Football related concussions and spinal chord injuries could be greatly reduced if football would go back to leather helmets without facemasks and would externally encase the helmet with sponge rubber or the like. Football does not do so primarily because the pros do not want to resultingly reduce the aggressiveness of play and its appearance for commercial reasons.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 29, 2009, 09:53:29 AM
Interesting, I was just looking up a former friend of my father's and came across this yesterday, published in August 1978:

An Unfolding Tragedy (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1093971/6/index.htm)

QuoteColorado Assistant Coach Ron Corradini called the helmet "the worst advancement in football." Last fall a collision with Nebraska Running Back I. M. Hipp put Colorado Linebacker Tom Perry on an Omaha operating table for five hours. The result of the impact was not instantaneous. Perry collapsed in the locker room with a cerebral hemorrhage. To save him, doctors had to drill a hole five-eighths of an inch in diameter in his skull and evacuate blood clots.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on October 29, 2009, 11:55:38 AM
Interesting concept that the leather helmet could reduce problems and I do believe the NFL is pretty hypcritical on the topic of player safety.  The helmet as the moral hazard that has created worse outcomes.  I wrote one of my GMAT essays arguing that increasing seatbelt laws would ultimately create greater unsafety on roads because people would function under the incorrect supposition that the belt will make them safer irrespective of the behavior of drivers.  (nobody cares about the essay part of the GMAT, but for what its worth it got me the top score)

What I really wanted to do was defend Gladwell and refute any suggestion that's he's this effete intellectual who's writing's as they related to something so manly as football should just be thrown out because of the writer.  Gladwell has defended the game of football before and I think he makes good points.  

Here's the bigger question.  Is the NFL unwilling to make real efforts to to protect the long term health that will help sustain the game long term, or could they themselves create a problem that ultimately hurts the game at all levels?  
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 29, 2009, 04:35:32 PM
The NFL is a for-profit business; for-profit businesses are primarily concerned about profits - most of all, short term profits. It ain't a sin or illegal.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 29, 2009, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: frank uible on October 29, 2009, 04:35:32 PM
The NFL is a for-profit business; for-profit businesses are primarily concerned about profits - most of all, short term profits. It ain't a sin or illegal.

Not illegal, and not to get all Michael Moore, but isn't greed one of the seven deadlies?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: retagent on October 29, 2009, 10:58:14 PM
I think some of us may be too quick to impute nefarious motives to people we don't know. I see it too often in political discussions. (e.g. Rep Grayson from Orlando is real good at this) It's so easy to use ad hominum arguements, which I learned in an introductory logic course are invalid. You just throw them at people and you don't have to prove the charge. How does one defend against the attack, "You are evil, and have evil motives?"

Stick to impirical evidence. You should be able to prove your case, and even if those evil, greedy NFL owners are indeed evil and greedy, the case you build on facts will stand independant of that.

By the way, that greed charge is often used, but remember, envy is also one of the seven deadly sins.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2009, 12:03:54 AM
How many bucks does it take to move from "just making a living" to "greedy"?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 30, 2009, 01:10:47 AM
Quote from: frank uible on October 30, 2009, 12:03:54 AM
How many bucks does it take to move from "just making a living" to "greedy"?

A few more than whoever you are asking is currently making! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: retagent on October 30, 2009, 03:19:54 PM
I guess the real question is; Who do you trust to make that decision?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on October 30, 2009, 04:28:08 PM
The answer of course is the government. 

I know, I know, take it to the political boards.  It was just too easy. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2009, 05:11:40 PM
The same (or same kind of) people who all these years have set U.S. monetary and fiscal policies so prudently and equitably.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on October 31, 2009, 08:45:04 PM
Quote from: pumkinattack on October 29, 2009, 11:55:38 AM
What I really wanted to do was defend Gladwell and refute any suggestion that's he's this effete intellectual who's writing's as they related to something so manly as football should just be thrown out because of the writer.  Gladwell has defended the game of football before and I think he makes good points.  

Here's the bigger question.  Is the NFL unwilling to make real efforts to to protect the long term health that will help sustain the game long term, or could they themselves create a problem that ultimately hurts the game at all levels?  


I have to question your effete intellectual bona fides, pa.  No effete intellectual worth his organic salt substitute would abuse the apostrophe so blatantly.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on November 01, 2009, 07:15:56 AM
My diligence is severly lacking when I post, but fair enough.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OxyBob on November 02, 2009, 09:07:38 AM
Quote from: pumkinattack on October 29, 2009, 11:55:38 AM
What I really wanted to do was defend Gladwell and refute any suggestion that's he's this effete intellectual who's writing's as they related to something so manly as football should just be thrown out because of the writer.  Gladwell has defended the game of football before and I think he makes good points.

Is NFL writer Peter King of Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/06/mmqb/3.html) also a sissy who is full of manure and should not be taken seriously? Is Carson Palmer?

Quote"The truth of the matter is ... somebody is going to die here in the NFL. It's going to happen.''

-- Cincinnati's Carson Palmer, in my quarterback roundtable discussion this week in Sports Illustrated.

I found that comment chilling, to say the least. The other quarterbacks at the table -- Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers -- didn't dispute Palmer's words, and when he said them, the table got very quiet. They know. They feel the same thing happening in this game, too. And the fact that this statement has gotten zero traction in the last four days tells me something that all of us should find frightening: People read that line and just said, Yup, someone's going to die. We accept that. Now bring on football, dammit!

I gathered the five quarterbacks after their Friday round of golf at the celebrity golf tournament at South Lake Tahoe in mid-July. [If you think that was easy, for my next trick I'm going to pull a rabbit out of this MacBook Air.] It was a loose group. The light beer flowed, and it was the kind of scene you wish could have lasted five hours, not one. And so occasionally, a Roethlisberger would grab his phone and text someone, or chat with Rodgers about something that happened out on the course, but when Palmer said what he said, the table got quiet and everyone listened.
...

"Guys are getting so big, so fast, so explosive,'' Palmer said. "The game's so violent. Now that they're cutting out the wedge deal on kickoff returns, those guys [are] coming free, and at some point somebody is going to die in football. And I hope it's not anyone at this table, and I hope it doesn't happen, obviously. Everyone talks about the good old days, when guys were tough and quarterbacks got crushed all the time, but back in the day, there weren't defensive ends that were Mario Williams -- 6-7, 300 pounds, 10 percent body fat, running a 4.7 40."

"The game has changed, the game is getting bigger, faster, stronger, and there needs to be more protection. If I weren't a quarterback, I would be mad about the rules. If I were a safety or a defensive back, I would be mad about the new rule that you can't hit your helmet above their shoulder pads or whatever it is because it does take some of the ferociousness out of the game, but somebody is going to get seriously hurt, possibly die."

OxyBob
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on November 02, 2009, 11:05:03 AM
Quote from: frank uible on October 28, 2009, 04:45:25 AM
Malcolm Gladwell is a touchey-feeley intellectual whose writing appeals to other touchey-feeley intellectuals and who likes to assemble in his writing a bunch of obscure facts which he somehow relates to a certain selected subject, thereby intimating or reaching an off-beat conclusion about the subject not taking into account its essence. In short your correspondent believes Gladwell is a sissy who is full of manure and should not be taken seriously.

Isn't this the quote you wanted to use before yours, Bob? 

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: OxyBob on November 02, 2009, 11:15:02 AM
Quote from: pumkinattack on November 02, 2009, 11:05:03 AM
Quote from: frank uible on October 28, 2009, 04:45:25 AM
Malcolm Gladwell is a touchey-feeley intellectual whose writing appeals to other touchey-feeley intellectuals and who likes to assemble in his writing a bunch of obscure facts which he somehow relates to a certain selected subject, thereby intimating or reaching an off-beat conclusion about the subject not taking into account its essence. In short your correspondent believes Gladwell is a sissy who is full of manure and should not be taken seriously.
Isn't this the quote you wanted to use before yours, Bob? 

Indeed.

OxyBob
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 02, 2009, 03:11:17 PM
any one know when the ecac bids (i.e., opportunities for schools to elect to participate - assuming they qualify) "come out"?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on November 02, 2009, 04:08:00 PM
TGP:

I believe schools have a chance to submit for ECAC bids this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 03, 2009, 01:37:17 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on November 02, 2009, 04:08:00 PM
TGP:

I believe schools have a chance to submit for ECAC bids this week.

thx gordon.  frank rossi posted an update on the east boards.  thursday is the deadline. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Purple Heys on November 03, 2009, 08:46:31 PM
Quote from: OxyBob on November 02, 2009, 09:07:38 AM
Quote from: pumkinattack on October 29, 2009, 11:55:38 AM
What I really wanted to do was defend Gladwell and refute any suggestion that's he's this effete intellectual who's writing's as they related to something so manly as football should just be thrown out because of the writer.  Gladwell has defended the game of football before and I think he makes good points.

Is NFL writer Peter King of Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/09/06/mmqb/3.html) also a sissy who is full of manure and should not be taken seriously? Is Carson Palmer?

Quote"The truth of the matter is ... somebody is going to die here in the NFL. It's going to happen.''

-- Cincinnati's Carson Palmer, in my quarterback roundtable discussion this week in Sports Illustrated.

I found that comment chilling, to say the least. The other quarterbacks at the table -- Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers -- didn't dispute Palmer's words, and when he said them, the table got very quiet. They know. They feel the same thing happening in this game, too. And the fact that this statement has gotten zero traction in the last four days tells me something that all of us should find frightening: People read that line and just said, Yup, someone's going to die. We accept that. Now bring on football, dammit!

I gathered the five quarterbacks after their Friday round of golf at the celebrity golf tournament at South Lake Tahoe in mid-July. [If you think that was easy, for my next trick I'm going to pull a rabbit out of this MacBook Air.] It was a loose group. The light beer flowed, and it was the kind of scene you wish could have lasted five hours, not one. And so occasionally, a Roethlisberger would grab his phone and text someone, or chat with Rodgers about something that happened out on the course, but when Palmer said what he said, the table got quiet and everyone listened.
...

"Guys are getting so big, so fast, so explosive,'' Palmer said. "The game's so violent. Now that they're cutting out the wedge deal on kickoff returns, those guys [are] coming free, and at some point somebody is going to die in football. And I hope it's not anyone at this table, and I hope it doesn't happen, obviously. Everyone talks about the good old days, when guys were tough and quarterbacks got crushed all the time, but back in the day, there weren't defensive ends that were Mario Williams -- 6-7, 300 pounds, 10 percent body fat, running a 4.7 40."

"The game has changed, the game is getting bigger, faster, stronger, and there needs to be more protection. If I weren't a quarterback, I would be mad about the rules. If I were a safety or a defensive back, I would be mad about the new rule that you can't hit your helmet above their shoulder pads or whatever it is because it does take some of the ferociousness out of the game, but somebody is going to get seriously hurt, possibly die."

OxyBob

Somebody already has died...maybe not instantly after the moment of impact...but most assuredly Darryl Stingley had his life ended as a result of the hit on the football field that left him a quadriplegic.

"On April 5, 2007, Darryl Stingley died at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago after being discovered unresponsive in his home. His death was attributed to heart disease and pneumonia complicated by quadriplegia.  The Cook County Medical Examiner listed Stingley's cause of death as an accident."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 03, 2009, 11:07:40 PM
The American Football Coaches Association  tracks direct and indirect football related deaths at all levels of play on an annual basis. Current annual deaths (at an aggregate of single digits per year) are far down from the 60s and 70s.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 04, 2009, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: TGP on November 03, 2009, 01:37:17 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on November 02, 2009, 04:08:00 PM
TGP:

I believe schools have a chance to submit for ECAC bids this week.

thx gordon.  frank rossi posted an update on the east boards.  thursday is the deadline. 

This just in - Hobart is foregoing the opportunity to play in the ECACs due to budget constraints.  I am not surprised by the decision, but disappointed nonetheless - especially for the SR class.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 05, 2009, 11:31:49 PM
Keith you mention CWRU in the Program Turnarounds, but how can you leave them out of the Top 10, yet include two teams with NO playoff appearances?

CWRU wins 1999-2006--34  wins last three seasons--29   playoff record 1-2
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 06, 2009, 12:42:53 AM
From 1999-2002 SJF won a total of 11 games...

Since then they've had 3 10+ win seasons, 3 seasons of 7+ wins and 6 straight trips to either the NCAA's or ECAC's...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2009, 11:22:37 AM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 05, 2009, 11:31:49 PMhow can you leave them out of the Top 10, yet include two teams with NO playoff appearances?

You really want to know? I researched several more teams than made the top 10, but CWRU and SJF were not among the teams I had remembered as consistently awful enough for me to back and look.

Both very valid suggestions. All the Ten Bests are open for discussion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on November 07, 2009, 01:15:13 PM
This may not belong here, but I couldn't figure out where else to put it.

Why isn't Linfield on the list of teams on the front page that are already in the tournament?  They are 5-0 with one game to play in the NWC.  They have already defeated Willamette and Menlo (the two teams with one loss).  I just don't see how Linfield has not already clinched the AQ in that conference?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 07, 2009, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: altor on November 07, 2009, 01:15:13 PM
This may not belong here, but I couldn't figure out where else to put it.

Why isn't Linfield on the list of teams on the front page that are already in the tournament?  They are 5-0 with one game to play in the NWC.  They have already defeated Willamette and Menlo (the two teams with one loss).  I just don't see how Linfield has not already clinched the AQ in that conference?
Here is the Linfield press release saying that the Wildcats have clinched the NWC AQ.

http://www.linfield.edu/sports/release.php?id=3168

(Must have been an oversight...   :) )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2009, 01:10:13 AM
No released was posted with us on that game and we didn't pick up on the clinching.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 08, 2009, 12:33:04 PM
Wittenberg clinched too.

http://www.d3football.com/game-release/2009/Nov/07/Wittenberg-vs-Allegheny/fgziel6a5wlokpt7.html
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2009, 01:22:12 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 08, 2009, 12:33:04 PM
Wittenberg clinched too.

http://www.d3football.com/game-release/2009/Nov/07/Wittenberg-vs-Allegheny/fgziel6a5wlokpt7.html

That was this week; we were on top of that. What they were discussing above is that Linfield clinched after Week 9's games and we missed that.

Five clinched Pool A bids in Week 9, seven more clinched this week. Pool B is practically three teams clinched.

Then there are four/five showdown/title games, two conference bids solved rather easily and four with three-way tie potential.

It's discussed in the podcast, but if you prefer it broken down in writing, I'll have this all in the ATN column this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2009, 01:30:08 PM
Got some interesting e-mails to share this week ... some I guess I'll excerpt in the Week 11 ATN, but the die-hards get to see in full here. :D

QuoteAmazing article.  Extremely impressive.  Thank you!

GO TRINE!

Lisa Rickaby

Wait, that's not interesting to you all. Just self-serving. Here you go. This one was very good:

QuoteKeith,

Your portion of ATN about the Seniors' Last Game gave me goose bumps. I graduated
from Moravian College in the Spring and just reading your piece about the last time
you get to strap it up brings back so many memories. I did not start following
d3football.com until after I graduated, there is hardly enough time to fit in school
work with all the practice and normal college stuff that following a website week to
week becomes nearly impossible. It's a shame because a piece like that could
probably help things touch home for some Seniors who are embarking on their final
games in the next couple weeks. I finished my regular season career with an upset of
Top 10 ranked Muhlenberg and an 8-2 record. We had felt like we were on top of the
world and to this day my true final memory is of Ryan Rempe jumping through the pile
for the game winning OT score. However, we were selected for a ECAC Bowl against
Salisbury. There seemed to be many mixed emotions about that selection, number 1 it
was below 30 degrees every day of practice that week. Number 2, what could have been
better than upsetting a Top 10 team, let alone a despised rival like Muhlenberg. We
jumped out to a 17-0 halftime lead only to see it slip away to a 21-17 loss in the
second half. Looking back I know we all tried our hardest in the game, but I
sincerely wonder if we realized how lucky we were to be able to play one more
collegiate game. If we knew how we would feel the following fall watching college
football instead of playing, if we would have pulled a little deeper to make one
more play that could've turned that 4 point defeat into a victory. I just wanted to
let you know that your piece was very well written and that I feel it would be a
great message for current players to hear, but unfortunately I would doubt that many
current players follow the website. Thanks and continue the good work.

Marc Braxmeier
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2009, 01:44:17 PM
QuoteKeith,

I have been an ardent reader/follower of information/articles on D3football.com for
4 years. While I am well aware that it may not be relevant to those fans that follow
Division I football, for the vast majority of us who have sons that are what I
consider 'true student athletes', who well play for "the love of the game', it is a
source of recognition, inspiration, and information, about 'our world'.

As my son plays has last few games, which I believe will be punctuated by his team's
playoff aspirations being met, I too, as one of the recent articles suggest, look
out over the last few years and realize that there are only a few more times
watching them come down the "Long Green Line", participating in the tailgates during
the warmth of Indian summers and the cold and drizzle of the Midwest in mid Nov. The
meetings with families (mostly dads) discussing the winning or losing, play calling,
great plays, (sometimes with a victory cigar), to remembering to bring the Gatorade
on the away games for the boy's bus ride home. and for me -the enjoyment of watching
my son walk off the field in victory or defeat and meeting with him after the game,
And what hit me as my family trekked from all over this past couple weeks to watch
these few games that are left, I realize that over the last few years while my son
has evolved into a man, and grown before my eyes, he's met some lifelong friends and
I have met some really great people also.

And as one of the articles I read mentioned, that college football will be the last
for most of the boys, I too will probably visit D3 less and less, but wanted to
thank all those involved for the effort and reporting D3 provides us regular dad's.

In an attempt to pay back for all the enjoyment you have provided through your
website, I thought I would reveal the little known secret that there is good
football here in middle Illinois. The Illinois Wesleyan University "TITANS" have
played some pretty inspirational football over the year in the CCIW conference, and
most recently defeated a couple of pretty good teams in North Central and Wheaton
College in their climb to the conference championship, and in what we hope to be a
march to the Playoffs. Their coach, Norm Eash, has taken a group of really great
individuals, and modeled them into a pretty good team, that can score and defend
with the best the conference has to offer, and along the way won his 100th game in
conference play earlier this year, and is the second winningest coach in the
school's 160 year history. So why we might not be a Mt. Union, or a UW-Whitewater,
they play some pretty good football in Bloomington, IL. All coincidently done, on
the 5th oldest field in NCAA history.

Thanks,
Larry Pope, the father of # 85.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2009, 01:46:11 PM
Case Western Reserve (elsewhere) and St. John Fisher have both been mentioned as candidates for last week's top turnarounds list:

 
Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Subject: St. John Fisher College
                Notes: Hi Keith,

I think St. John Fisher needs to be on your list of teams that have made the biggest
turn-arounds...when I played against them in 2001 we (St. Lawrence) were 0-10 and
they (St. John Fisher) were 1-9 and that 1 win was a 21-14 win agaisnt us...since
then they have been a powerhouse in the Empire 8 which as you know includes several
great programs (Ithaca, Springfield, Alfred, Hartwick...) Making it all the way to
the semifinals and now playing Mount Union in the regular season (I know the games
haven't been too close, except for the 1 playoff meeting, but you have to admit it
is impressive none the less to add Mt. Union to your schedule...10 years ago that
would not have happened)

Hope all is well,

Marc Tapscott
St. Lawrence University '05
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
And one more. I think I wrote back that we usually include the NESCAC caveat -- we certainly do when we do our own conference rankings -- and that I'm not sure it's meant to imply that Williams or whoever it was last week was the 4th best team in the country, only to show there's another way of looking at things.

Still, George's points are worth considering:

QuoteKeith,

I just read this week's Around the Nation, and I saw that you cited the
Massey Ratings while including the NESCAC. He lists them in the D3 rankings,
but he doesn't actually include them when rating. In the rankings, he
separates all college football schools into six groups. Group 1 is almost
all of college football, including the NCAA and the NAIA. Groups 2, 3, 4,
and 6 are junior colleges. Group 5 is the NESCAC. He gives all groups an
average value of 0, which is fine if he's rating these groups separately and
making no assumptions about relative quality unless they've played each
other, as Division 1, 2, 3, and the NAIA have. However, by listing the
NESCAC with the other D3 schools, it implies that he assumes the NESCAC to
be an average college football conference, and by extension the best in D3,
which I'm guessing isn't his intention. The only way you can mathematically
rank the NESCAC with other D3 schools is if you make some sort of assumption
about the quality of the conference. For example, if you subtract the
average D3 rating of -.859 from each NESCAC rating, Williams falls to 49th,
which may be about right for the top NESCAC school. Therefore, if you cite
the Massey Ratings again, unless he changes the formula or simply separates
the NESCAC as he should, I would suggest listing the top 10 non-NESCAC
schools.

George, statistics major at CWRU
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 10, 2009, 10:22:47 AM
Here's a little something I slapped together for the Pool C thread, but maybe it belongs here instead.

I was curious to see what criticisms people would have and what they would come up with using one different team or even the same ones, just re-arranging the matchups. I did a few things just to show they could be done, which will likely not be the committee's goals over the weekend.

Quote from: K-Mack on November 10, 2009, 10:08:44 AM
Just for fun, since the Pool C thread seems to be doubling as this year's playoff speculation thread, I'm going to make field of 32 with matchups I could potentially see. I don't plan to spend more than two minutes thinking about this, I just want to throw something out there that might or (more likely) might not happen.

Feel free to change one Week 11 result, one Pool C selection or both, or just re-mix and match the bracket in a way you potentially see it falling.

I think I'll make my six Pool Cs be UMHB, St. Thomas, Coe, Wabash, Redlands and LV/Albright (really wanted to do ONU. Maybe next time)

Okay, here's a hastily assembled suggestion:

1 MUC
8 Union

4 Thomas More
5 Alfred

3 Case Western Reserve
6 MSJ

2 Wittenberg
7 Trine
------------
1 UWW
8 Wabash

4 Ill. Wesleyan
5 DePauw

3 Monmouth
6 Coe

7 St. Thomas
2 Central
-----------
1 Wesley
8 LV/Albright

2 H-SC
8 NCWC/Averett

3 Kean
6 Curry

2 Del Val
7 Johns Hopkins

------------
1 St. John's
8 Conc Ill

3 Miss Coll
6 Hunt

4 Cal Lutheran
5 UMHB

7 Redlands
2 Linfield

-----------
Okay, some observations:

-- This took much longer than two minutes. If you do it yourself, I advise you to list your 32 teams and have them in front of you before you start mixing and matching, rather than the way I did it ... making up matchups that make sense, then trying to remember who I was missing ... only to have that team not have a good fit.

-- There's a severe shortage of low seeds in the West/North, especially if you split St. John's and UWW

-- That last bracket features a weird flight into St. John's 2nd round. Probably not ideal, but I think I kept it to minimum flights in the first round based on the teams I had in.

-- This is by no means what I think will happen; just something I wanted to do to see if it could happen.

-- Use a map. You'll be surprised how close Alfred is to Ohio. They can get to Case and Wittenberg. Trine can get to Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. If you sub Union for Susquehanna, there are a ton more places the LL champ can go, with it being in Central Pa. stead upstate NY.

-- Do one yourself, but switch one Pool C team and watch the dominoes fall.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 10, 2009, 10:32:38 AM
One thing I found that would be really helpful, besides having all 32 teams in front of you before you start, would be to have a list of where each team could travel by bus and by air to refer to as you're considering a pairing. I hope the committee already does this.

Then you could do two things: Take your 32 and make geographically-assembled groups of eight, or rank teams 1-32, then take 1-4 and hope they shake out as your 1 seeds, 5-8 as 2s and so on down the line, so 29-32 are your 8s. (I think the committee does this, actually)

Being able to look at, say, Illinois Wesleyan, and know immediately where you could send them based on how far Bloomington, IL is from the other playoffs contenders, would then make things much easier.

IWU's list might look like:
Bus: Monmouth, Concordia (Ill.), Coe, Central, St. Thomas, UW-Whitewater, Trine, DePauw, Wabash, Wittenberg, Thomas More, Mount St. Joseph, etc.
Flight: St. John's, Mount Union, (all the obvious ones on the coasts & in the south), etc.

Anyway, I'm sure selection committee members have a proven system ... it's fun to force yourself to try to go through the process, even hastily, and see what pops up
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BlueRebel94 on November 10, 2009, 12:48:54 PM
A lot of chatter on the boards regarding Thomas More being moved to the North for the playoffs which makes travel sense but how do they seed a team that would have only one regional opponent from the North? Pat, Keith, anyone?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 10, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: BlueRebel94 on November 10, 2009, 12:48:54 PM
A lot of chatter on the boards regarding Thomas More being moved to the North for the playoffs which makes travel sense but how do they seed a team that would have only one regional opponent from the North? Pat, Keith, anyone?

Dang, I wrote you a long response but the server timed out and it didn't take. Will have to try again later, I'm on my way out the door.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BlueRebel94 on November 11, 2009, 03:46:15 PM
K-Mack while you are working on the first assignment of what region and what seed TMC will be.  I have a second one for you.  How is HS-C still higher in the regional rankings?  TMC has a higher strength of schedule.  I know if TMC takes care of business on Saturday against a ranked 9-0 team from the North (regionally ranked #3), they should get a decent seed in the tourney, but what should I realistically expect?  I mean going 10-0 (hopefully), ranked #11/10 and beating two 9 win teams and one 8 win team to close the season should mean at least a 3 seed shouldn't it?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2009, 04:50:41 PM
Quote from: BlueRebel94 on November 11, 2009, 03:46:15 PM
K-Mack while you are working on the first assignment of what region and what seed TMC will be.  I have a second one for you.  How is HS-C still higher in the regional rankings?  TMC has a higher strength of schedule.  I know if TMC takes care of business on Saturday against a ranked 9-0 team from the North (regionally ranked #3), they should get a decent seed in the tourney, but what should I realistically expect?  I mean going 10-0 (hopefully), ranked #11/10 and beating two 9 win teams and one 8 win team to close the season should mean at least a 3 seed shouldn't it?
Let's see if beating a regionally ranked team boosts TMC over H-SC.  Being 9-0, and beating two 9-win teams and one 8-win team has been considered in the current ranking.

(The poll rankings don't count.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2009, 08:23:02 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 10, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: BlueRebel94 on November 10, 2009, 12:48:54 PM
A lot of chatter on the boards regarding Thomas More being moved to the North for the playoffs which makes travel sense but how do they seed a team that would have only one regional opponent from the North? Pat, Keith, anyone?

Dang, I wrote you a long response but the server timed out and it didn't take. Will have to try again later, I'm on my way out the door.

I think my original response was something like "the same way they seed any other team."

In other words, don't focus too much on the word regional in the criteria. While they use North/South/East/West regions and put emphasis on games within those regions, there are other ways to define regional game. Though Thomas More's opponents are North and South region teams, they're all regional games.

So their record, either 9-1 or 10-0, has everything to do with where they land. So does their proximity to several North region schools. If I had to guess, regardless of whether they are at home or on the road, I'd put them in a bracket with Mount Union and a bunch of the Ohio schools.

In the criteria where it says wins over regionally-ranked opponents, it doesn't have to be only South Region teams ... anyone on that list is taken into consideration. So a win over MSJ, and if you're lucky, W&J staying ranked, would give you a 2-0 record to H-SC's 0-0.

Basically what I'm saying is it all comes down to this week. You win, you're in with a high seed and a home game, likely against a North region team. (Thomas More and Averett, NCWC or H-SC don't seem to be in driving distance.)

You lose, you're on the road drawing perhaps a very tough assignment.

Whichever 9-0 team loses the Bridge Bowl is not going to like their playoff assignment all that much. If you could lose and draw Case or Witt, that might be a best bet.\

Did I actually answer your questions in all that?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on November 11, 2009, 09:59:36 PM

Quote from: K-Mack on November 11, 2009, 08:23:02 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 10, 2009, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: BlueRebel94 on November 10, 2009, 12:48:54 PM
A lot of chatter on the boards regarding Thomas More being moved to the North for the playoffs which makes travel sense but how do they seed a team that would have only one regional opponent from the North? Pat, Keith, anyone?

Dang, I wrote you a long response but the server timed out and it didn't take. Will have to try again later, I'm on my way out the door.

I think my original response was something like "the same way they seed any other team."

In other words, don't focus too much on the word regional in the criteria. While they use North/South/East/West regions and put emphasis on games within those regions, there are other ways to define regional game. Though Thomas More's opponents are North and South region teams, they're all regional games.

So their record, either 9-1 or 10-0, has everything to do with where they land. So does their proximity to several North region schools. If I had to guess, regardless of whether they are at home or on the road, I'd put them in a bracket with Mount Union and a bunch of the Ohio schools.

In the criteria where it says wins over regionally-ranked opponents, it doesn't have to be only South Region teams ... anyone on that list is taken into consideration. So a win over MSJ, and if you're lucky, W&J staying ranked, would give you a 2-0 record to H-SC's 0-0.

Basically what I'm saying is it all comes down to this week. You win, you're in with a high seed and a home game, likely against a North region team. (Thomas More and Averett, NCWC or H-SC don't seem to be in driving distance.)

You lose, you're on the road drawing perhaps a very tough assignment.

Whichever 9-0 team loses the Bridge Bowl is not going to like their playoff assignment all that much. If you could lose and draw Case or Witt, that might be a best bet.\

Did I actually answer your questions in all that?

K-Mack,

The question that I have with your last post is with the final regional rankings.  Doesn't the committee put all the teams in the field into the final regional rankings?  If that is the case then the Averett/NCW winner will move into the rankings.  Depauw must stay in the rankings.  That would leave no room for W&J if they don't make the field and Dickinson stays in front of them.  The South region would have 9 teams in the playoffs with the 6 pool A qualifiers, two pool B qualifiers, and at least one pool C with UMHB.  If Dickinson stays in front of W&J then they would be in the regional rankings too.  Also, if NCW wins and gets moved into the regional rankings then that would give HSC a regional ranked win and Thomas More may be left with only one if W&J falls out.  The SOS would still be in TM's favor and they still may jump HSC but they may have the same regional ranked wins. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2009, 10:11:54 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 11, 2009, 08:23:02 PM
...

In the criteria where it says wins over regionally-ranked opponents, it doesn't have to be only South Region teams ... anyone on that list is taken into consideration. So a win over MSJ, and if you're lucky, W&J staying ranked, would give you a 2-0 record to H-SC's 0-0.

...
I wish that the Regionally ranked teams, in the last "weekly" (penultimate) rankings, were considered in the final deliberation.  If a school has managed to be respected thru 90% of the season, then that should be good enough going into that last weekend of games when everything is on the line.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2009, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HSC85 on November 11, 2009, 09:59:36 PM
Doesn't the committee put all the teams in the field into the final regional rankings? 

No, it doesn't. It will eventually seed them, of course, and put them into the field, but they are not regionally ranked unless they deserve to be.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on November 11, 2009, 10:41:00 PM
Thanks for the clarification Pat.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 12, 2009, 09:29:29 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2009, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: HSC85 on November 11, 2009, 09:59:36 PM
Doesn't the committee put all the teams in the field into the final regional rankings? 

No, it doesn't. It will eventually seed them, of course, and put them into the field, but they are not regionally ranked unless they deserve to be.

I meant to answer that. Pat's right of course, they do the regional rankings same way they do every other week, put the 10 teams in each region in order based on the criteria. Because of the AQs, some teams past 10 will be in the playoffs, and some teams ranked higher than 8 in a region might get left out.

It's still a useful tool for adding extra significance to regular season victories
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D O.C. on November 12, 2009, 11:25:12 AM
d3football.com staff....is this the busiest week of the season on the boards?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 12, 2009, 04:52:10 PM
This or Selection Sunday week in basketball, yes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: golden_dome on November 13, 2009, 12:27:59 AM
About the selection show Sunday, is it available anywhere on the internet? Or is there anyway to get an ESPNews feed via internet?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 14, 2009, 04:02:20 AM
Quote from: D O.C. on November 12, 2009, 11:25:12 AM
d3football.com staff....is this the busiest week of the season on the boards?

Without looking at the numbers ... yes.

We always do the most traffic on selection sunday. WIth playoff curiousity and rivalries, Week 11 is definitely the busiest

Quote from: Chris Brooks on November 13, 2009, 12:27:59 AM
About the selection show Sunday, is it available anywhere on the internet? Or is there anyway to get an ESPNews feed via internet?

Not that I know of. If you can't watch on TV, this website is your best bet.

With Pat not in studio this year, I don't think you're missing much if you miss the show. They just have an anchor read and Pat analyze. FWIW.

We'll have the bracket posted as soon as it's allowed, plus all the analysis and fan reaction here on the boards you could possibly desire.

Also, I just posted on the DIII on Fox thread ... At least 3 games on my DTV tomorrow.

ESPNews on right now in the background ... dude just said six teams enter the weekend hoping to play for a national championship in college football. Uh, add 32+, 16+ and 16+ to that. Or say Division I if you mean Division I.

(b-boy stance)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 14, 2009, 04:37:20 AM
Just thought I'd post this, BTW:

If I'm reading the handbook right, the selection committee is:

Springfield Coach Mike DeLong
Rowan AD Joy Solomen
IWU Coach Norm Eash
OAC Commish Tim Gleason
ODAC Commish Brad Bankston
Grove City coach Chris Smith
Knox AD Chad Eisele
Redlands coach Mike Maynard

That's two from every region, and each of them is co-chair of a nine-member evaluation committee (the ones who did the regional rankings) that's been closely eyeing this the whole year.

We've had good relationships with the committee chair in the past and gotten interviews to help us learn how this works, and I bet we'll be able to do the same this year, albeit after the fact. I'm not 100% sure if the nine-member evaluation committee does the final regional rankings and then lets the selection committee do its work, and I forget how coaches and commissioners with teams on the table are allowed to participate in deliberations.

I do know that list up there is of people who have a lot of experience with D3 and care a lot of about it, and I'm not just saying that.

For some reason, in past seasons, we have not necessarily made a big deal of who is on the committee. It tends to sound like a lot of people still think it's a magic goblin in the NCAA offices that's responsible for making decisions.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 14, 2009, 10:12:15 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2009, 04:37:20 AM
...

I do know that list up there is of people who have a lot of experience with D3 and care a lot of about it, and I'm not just saying that.

For some reason, in past seasons, we have not necessarily made a big deal of who is on the committee. It tends to sound like a lot of people still think it's a magic goblin in the NCAA offices that's responsible for making decisions.
Keith, good points...

One other thing about the committee composition.

It does not take much investigation to find a coach from your own team/conference or alma mater participating or chairing the committee in another sport.

I think that such talk impugns the professionalism that drives these men and women to excel at their jobs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 15, 2009, 12:09:31 PM
I think I'm finally putting my old bio on the site to bed, but I wanted to save it somewhere since it's sort of a piece of work (pun intended):

QuoteKeith McMillan, Managing Editor  Although I recall my Dad taking me to a Tufts-Bowdoin game when I was growing up in Somerville, Massachusetts, my first real foray into Division III football came as a high school junior in Southern New Jersey. My teammates were being recruited by UCLA, North Carolina and Purdue. I was getting letters from places like Allegheny, Albright and Macalester, only some of which I'd heard of.

I played cornerback and safety from 1994-97 at Randolph-Macon of the Old Dominion Athletic Conference. I finished my career with 10 interceptions, including four in one game at Catholic, in two seasons as a starter. We finished 8-2 my senior year, tying for the conference title, but missing the playoffs under the old 16-team system.

I covered the Yellow Jackets and the ODAC for two years after that at a Virginia newspaper, and moved on to cover Division I football and the NFL, among other things. I now work as a copy editor for USA Today and am a member of the Football Writers Association of America.

I still believe Division III football is the game in its purest form, combining the complexity and intensity of college football without most of the extraneous stuff that drags down the game at some of the higher levels. Not to sound high and mighty — I love all kinds of football — but Division III is truly where we play the game for love. As we move on in life, we take a lot more from the game than just knowledge of 40 fronts, hot reads and zone coverages.
I've been to every Stagg Bowl since Mount Union crushed Lycoming in 1997 — we went then as players volunteering to help kids at an NCAA-sponsored clinic. Since then, I've seen games in and talked to some of the most interesting people from just about every conference and area that Division III football permeates. I definitely consider it a privilege as a well as a job to be part of the D3football.com broadcast team as well as your Around the Nation columnist.

If I'm lucky, I'll someday spend a fall touring the country, watching games at the nation's most storied Division III universities, and either making a periodic column or book out of it. In fact, I'll accept donations for that trip starting ... now.

Division III football has been a part of my life since we used to kicked off of Tufts' field for playing tackle football with our Pop Warner equipment on there as youngsters. Having played and covered it, I'll always try to keep in mind the effect the game has on players, parents and the institutions it's played at. Sure, it's just a game. But it certainly isn't a waste of time.

E-mail Keith at keith@d3football.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 15, 2009, 03:51:31 PM
 Nice.

QuoteK-Mack, Schwami, Chess4Me, Gray Fox, Bob.Gregg, johnnie_esq, HSC85, SJU22, Bill McCabe, OshDude, retagent, AUKaz00, cawcdad, Dutch Radio, Toby Taff and 27 Guests are viewing this board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: kickerdad on November 18, 2009, 04:51:53 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2009, 04:37:20 AM
Just thought I'd post this, BTW:

If I'm reading the handbook right, the selection committee is:

Springfield Coach Mike DeLong
Rowan AD Joy Solomen
IWU Coach Norm Eash
OAC Commish Tim Gleason
ODAC Commish Brad Bankston
Grove City coach Chris Smith
Knox AD Chad Eisele
Redlands coach Mike Maynard

That's two from every region, and each of them is co-chair of a nine-member evaluation committee (the ones who did the regional rankings) that's been closely eyeing this the whole year.

We've had good relationships with the committee chair in the past and gotten interviews to help us learn how this works, and I bet we'll be able to do the same this year, albeit after the fact. I'm not 100% sure if the nine-member evaluation committee does the final regional rankings and then lets the selection committee do its work, and I forget how coaches and commissioners with teams on the table are allowed to participate in deliberations.

I do know that list up there is of people who have a lot of experience with D3 and care a lot of about it, and I'm not just saying that.

For some reason, in past seasons, we have not necessarily made a big deal of who is on the committee. It tends to sound like a lot of people still think it's a magic goblin in the NCAA offices that's responsible for making decisions.

How long do these folks serve on the committee at one time and do they all go off and on at the same time?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D O.C. on November 19, 2009, 05:07:09 PM
QuoteCould you imagine if the Warhawks were also in the bracket with the Johnnies, Linfield, Central, UMHB, et. al.?

...and that is their rightful place, however, when I substitute Mount Union College for Mary Hardin Baylor, well, I get excited because surely the team of the millennium could come out of that bracket unscsathed....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 19, 2009, 05:21:43 PM
Quote from: kickerdad on November 18, 2009, 04:51:53 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2009, 04:37:20 AM
Just thought I'd post this, BTW:

If I'm reading the handbook right, the selection committee is:

Springfield Coach Mike DeLong
Rowan AD Joy Solomen
IWU Coach Norm Eash
OAC Commish Tim Gleason
ODAC Commish Brad Bankston
Grove City coach Chris Smith
Knox AD Chad Eisele
Redlands coach Mike Maynard

That's two from every region, and each of them is co-chair of a nine-member evaluation committee (the ones who did the regional rankings) that's been closely eyeing this the whole year.

How long do these folks serve on the committee at one time and do they all go off and on at the same time?

That's a little unclear to me. Maybe someone else can answer ... I thought it was two-year cycles, but it appears that people cycle off the committee every two years, but some seem to stay on longer. I suppose I could look back through my last 10 Stagg Bowl media guides and give a better answer.

What I do know is that they don't cycle off all at once, as noted in this week's column.

Also, there are RACs (regional advisory committees) ... the nine-member teams who put together the regional rankings. Then the two co-chairs of the four RACs are on the selection committee. Then one of those eight members chairs the committee and acts as the mouthpiece, etc. (Kaiser/Solomen, etc.)

I have asked some questions so that I am more clear and can speak more knowledgeably about how the committee works, and can distill all that info for you guys.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 19, 2009, 05:31:28 PM
I think you can re-up once, then possibly re-up one more time if you become national chair? I'm a little fuzzy on that myself.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 03, 2009, 11:53:55 PM
Some props to Hal Mumme, McMurry head coach who is quoted in the current Double Issue of Sports Illustrated on Texas high school football QB's and their prevalence as strating QB's in 24 of the 120 D-1 programs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 19, 2009, 10:41:46 PM
RE: the lastest Front Page Poll that was posted.

Before the game is was about 50-50 for UWW and MUC.  Final Poll was much more heavy for UWW but the poll wasn't taken down till 9:00pm.  How many of the votes were cast after the game was finished?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 19, 2009, 10:48:53 PM
Quote from: kirasdad on December 19, 2009, 10:41:46 PM
RE: the lastest Front Page Poll that was posted.

Before the game is was about 50-50 for UWW and MUC.  Final Poll was much more heavy for UWW but the poll wasn't taken down till 9:00pm.  How many of the votes were cast after the game was finished?

I'd be curious also.  I checked it a few times just before and during the game.  I didn't take notes, but seem to recall the number of voters had not reached 5,000 at kickoff (when things had been trending MUC's way, and they were up about 51-48 [where the other 1% went, I don't know!]).  By halftime, UWW had gone ahead, but things swung back Mount's way in the third.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on January 27, 2010, 03:44:35 PM
nice recap by kmack.  was surprised that JHU didn't have more of a mention as one of the "memorable teams of 2009" given their somewhat "historic" play-off run.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on June 03, 2010, 01:45:30 AM
Quote from: TGP on January 27, 2010, 03:44:35 PM
nice recap by kmack.  was surprised that JHU didn't have more of a mention as one of the "memorable teams of 2009" given their somewhat "historic" play-off run.

It's been a while, but maybe I mishandled that. I certainly thought the finish against Thomas More was one of the memorable endings since I've been doing D3, and I saw the Wesley-JHU game. Hmm.

I think I remember paring the year in review down a little bit this year though. Even though it was still two parts.

You guys know what June means ... time for us to start planning Kickoff! (yes, really)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 11, 2010, 12:11:34 AM
This is what makes me sad, and sometimes disinterested, in D1 football:

QuoteSaid linebacker Adrian Moten: "We put last season behind us. We're trying to get back in the BCS standings, and that's the key to the whole year for us."

Really? At least in D3 you can aim for the playoffs and a shot at the championship.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 11, 2010, 08:27:57 AM
Nothing says it's almost football season more than K-Mack posting again in the ATN topic.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 24, 2010, 06:22:14 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on August 11, 2010, 08:27:57 AM
Nothing says it's almost football season more than K-Mack posting again in the ATN topic.   :)

True.

And although my grass out front is knee-high, my laundry pile is overflowing and my kids have forgotten my name, nothing says "I actually get to post again" like Kickoff being released.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 01, 2010, 01:55:16 PM
Hi KMack -

When does ATN go to press?

Thx,

TGP
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 02, 2010, 08:51:40 AM
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010-09-02/Savor+the+new+season+as+it+kicks+off
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 02, 2010, 11:36:57 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 02, 2010, 08:51:40 AM
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010-09-02/Savor+the+new+season+as+it+kicks+off

Thx!!  Great article as always.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 02, 2010, 08:37:46 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 02, 2010, 11:36:57 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 02, 2010, 08:51:40 AM
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010-09-02/Savor+the+new+season+as+it+kicks+off

Thx!!  Great article as always.

Appreciated.

You ready for another season?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 03, 2010, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 02, 2010, 08:37:46 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 02, 2010, 11:36:57 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 02, 2010, 08:51:40 AM
http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010-09-02/Savor+the+new+season+as+it+kicks+off

Thx!!  Great article as always.

Appreciated.

You ready for another season?

Most definitely - didn't you catch In the HuddLLe last night ;)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 09, 2010, 01:20:53 PM
I appreciate the UMAC getting a little love with Scholastica winning the top play of the week, but how did the UMAC manage to become the only conference not to be covered by an "Around the Region" columnist?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on September 10, 2010, 01:31:39 PM
This weeks ATN doesn't list the #1 team in the land, UW-Whitewater hosting NAIA Dakota State of Madison, S.D. (Dakota Athletic Conference).  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 11, 2010, 05:57:45 PM
Quote from: AO on September 09, 2010, 01:20:53 PM
I appreciate the UMAC getting a little love with Scholastica winning the top play of the week, but how did the UMAC manage to become the only conference not to be covered by an "Around the Region" columnist?

UMAC is Around the West. That page is one of the many things updated in our new site which we are still waiting to be able to launch. They were "assorted independents" before and still are in that column's beat.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on September 13, 2010, 12:29:57 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 11, 2010, 05:57:45 PM
Quote from: AO on September 09, 2010, 01:20:53 PM
I appreciate the UMAC getting a little love with Scholastica winning the top play of the week, but how did the UMAC manage to become the only conference not to be covered by an "Around the Region" columnist?

UMAC is Around the West. That page is one of the many things updated in our new site which we are still waiting to be able to launch. They were "assorted independents" before and still are in that column's beat.
Good to hear, now maybe the UMAC can go out and do something worthy of reporting.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 15, 2010, 09:54:31 AM
Quote from: BoBo on September 10, 2010, 01:31:39 PM
This weeks ATN doesn't list the #1 team in the land, UW-Whitewater hosting NAIA Dakota State of Madison, S.D. (Dakota Athletic Conference).  ;)

My mistake. The 70-burger the Warhawks hung on the the Fighting Daks* gets mention this coming week.









* Probably not their real mascot
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on September 15, 2010, 10:02:02 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 15, 2010, 09:54:31 AM
Quote from: BoBo on September 10, 2010, 01:31:39 PM
This weeks ATN doesn't list the #1 team in the land, UW-Whitewater hosting NAIA Dakota State of Madison, S.D. (Dakota Athletic Conference).  ;)

My mistake. The 70-burger the Warhawks hung on the the Fighting Daks* gets mention this coming week.









* Probably not their real mascot

*Trojans





* Probably their real mascot
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 15, 2010, 11:00:34 AM
Sounds like the Trojans' protection failed. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on September 16, 2010, 02:39:32 PM
Another great ATN KMack (certainly don't mind seeing a LL team get some press, even if it was a L for the Mariners).

Here's another general interest football story from today's WSJ regarding what players are studying:

What Football Players Are Majoring In (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703743504575493773613076844.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESixthNews)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 16, 2010, 08:14:55 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 16, 2010, 02:39:32 PM
Another great ATN KMack (certainly don't mind seeing a LL team get some press, even if it was a L for the Mariners).

Here's another general interest football story from today's WSJ regarding what players are studying:

What Football Players Are Majoring In (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703743504575493773613076844.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLESixthNews)
No Chemistry or Biology majors there.   :-\   Zoology is the closest.

No mention of Pre-Med either.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 16, 2010, 09:12:51 PM
Would like to see him do this with D3 players.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 16, 2010, 11:17:44 PM
Chris Marve sounds like he is not messing around.

Wouldn't this be a less-fruitful exercise in D3, Ron, since players kinda have to major in something that they intend to make a career out of, since football won't be it?

(you could certainly argue that 95% of the D1 guys need to do that too, just wondering what you think)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 17, 2010, 09:41:08 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 16, 2010, 11:17:44 PM
Chris Marve sounds like he is not messing around.

Wouldn't this be a less-fruitful exercise in D3, Ron, since players kinda have to major in something that they intend to make a career out of, since football won't be it?

(you could certainly argue that 95% of the D1 guys need to do that too, just wondering what you think)

That's exactly the point , Keith - a D3 study would (hopefully) show well-rounded athletes who are actively pursuing a career other than "general studies."   I guess we're making the same point from opposite directions. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on September 17, 2010, 10:42:46 AM
K-Mack:
Thanks for the shout out in ATN this week. Pep would have been real pleased to hear the bands at Coast Guard. That highlight of the kickoff return TD was awesome. Sounds like a great atmosphere for football--Pep finds that even non-offensive games can be exciting when the results remain in question to the very end.

AU had a lot of those games when ol' Alex was coaching. As Pep prepares for a five-hour trip to the North Country with his little band of Alfred Saxon football fans armed with instruments (a tuba, two trumpets, a flute, a sax and a couple of drums) Pep remembers a trip to St. Lawrence as a kid when AU may have mustered about 175 yards of offense in a 16-0 win....and the Larries' only regular season loss in 1976 when AU got an early field goal off a Saint fumble and rode it to victory in a 3-2 barnburner.

Hope you can make another visit to Merrill Field soon, Keith, to see our new digs!

On Saxon Warriors!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on September 18, 2010, 07:16:55 PM
Quote from: TGP on September 16, 2010, 02:39:32 PM
Another great ATN KMack (certainly don't mind seeing a LL team get some press, even if it was a L for the Mariners).


Are you kidding me?  GREAT ATN, K-Mack.  Awesome sucking up to the LL and E8 E5 board posters!   :D  Seriously though,

QuoteThere's no way ATN can concern itself with a 'most meaningful' rivalry when the stakes are that high.

Games are just games. And they are a welcome diversion to those training for a life of most meaningful service to their country.

reminded me of the coin flip at the Rose Bowl back in January.   Keith Jackson was the honorary coin-flipper, and before he tossed the coin into the air he said to the team captains "this is hallowed ground, enjoy your time on it--have the game of your lives."

So now you, a college football commentator,  can say you've been compared to Keith Jackson.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 19, 2010, 01:56:18 PM
Gotta put in a "vote" for UMHB's special teams to make the "Team of the Week".

2 blocked FG's and a blocked PAT.  (McMurry only converted 1 of 2 PAT kicks and none of the 3 PAT pass attempts.)
Recovered a fumble in the end zone for a TD.
Bad punt snap for a safety.
KO Return for a TD.

That is another difference.

Congratulations to the CRU.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 22, 2010, 01:48:49 PM
Appreciate all the feedback -- and there was lots of it on the CGA/MMA column.

@AUPep ... 3-2 sounds strangely worth watching.

@Ralph, that explains how the Cru got outgained 512-200 and won.

@Redswarm, Keith Jackson? Okay, I'll take it.  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 23, 2010, 03:20:51 PM
To whom it might concern, I just clarified an item in ATN. The original part was written very late at night and I didn't properly say what I wanted to get at:

If you didn't read the column between 12:15 and 3;15 today, you'll notice no difference.

Here's the update:

QuotePoll positions

If after the third week of games, it's okay for the AFCA to put out its first poll (we kid, we kid), it's okay for ATN to dip into these waters. Let's take a quick look at the art/science of top 25 polling.

Here's the question of the week: Why is Linfield ranked?

Cal Lutheran's defeat of the then-No. 4 Wildcats, followed by the Kingsmen's loss to unranked Pacific Lutheran cast doubt upon the whole West Coast. If CLU rose up to 15, then dropped to 24th after the loss, how can Linfield be any higher than 25? And by that logic, PLU (2-0) should be somewhere in the poll as well.

Whether or not a pollster votes for No. 16 Linfield, now 0-1, depends on methodology. If voting for the top 25 teams at this very moment, based on what we know only of 2010, then it's fair to drop the Wildcats right out of the top 25. They have a loss, to a team that lost to an unranked team, and no wins to offset it.

But some voters no team should drop from No. 4 to 'also receiving votes' because of a single game.

I never like to look at polls as one-week deals. Our top 25 is an organism evolving as the teams do each season. Teams rarely stick to the script, consistently producing the same output each week, so why should we? Plus, one could very well believe that Linfield, even with a loss, is still one of the 25 best teams in the country.

I think in the end they will be, but as of this week, I didn't vote for them. I didn't have any grounds to do so, even though two weeks ago they were in my top 5.

But here's where polls are tricky: But do I really believe Trine (No. 14) would beat Linfield if they played this week? What's the right way to judge what we know, based on recent results, and what we suspect, based on historical strength? Should we take last week's ranking into account, or start fresh from the top every week? Certainly a team isn't owed a spot in this week's poll because it was ranked last week. Yet we often wonder how a certain result can produce so much movement in a single week.

A loss like Cal Lutheran's to Pacific Lutheran can produce a ripple effect for a team like Linfield, even though later in the year the Wildcats might defeat the Lutes and render that triangle of results mostly useless.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 23, 2010, 03:24:11 PM
Unrelated, i think we have early leaders for ATN YIR, in the to-be-renamed categories of best/worst/least memorable recognition by an outsider, for the DeLand column in the SCTimes (best) and the whole Post-Gazette poll and blog post.

I'll collect links (for my own edification and yours) when I get a moment. But the good column is highlighted in What We're Reading, and the other is addressed in this week's ATN.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 30, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
Awesome. I am clearly not writing about anything that anyone cares to discuss.

(takes a load off)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 08, 2010, 12:28:22 AM
Blocked kicks can by heartbreakers for the team that has been blocked.

Ohio Wesleyan has had five punts blocked and others batted away (as noted by their defensive stats showing seven blocks...some shoddy statwork there, Lou). Their GROSS punting average is 22.9 for the year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 08, 2010, 08:01:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 30, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
Awesome. I am clearly not writing about anything that anyone cares to discuss.

(takes a load off)


.......sound of crickets chirping..........


;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 08, 2010, 09:30:08 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 08, 2010, 08:01:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 30, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
Awesome. I am clearly not writing about anything that anyone cares to discuss.

(takes a load off)


.......sound of crickets chirping..........


;D
I interpreted the silence as your having the final word, and all agreed to the wisdom of that proclamation.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2010, 02:21:23 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 08, 2010, 09:30:08 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 08, 2010, 08:01:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 30, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
Awesome. I am clearly not writing about anything that anyone cares to discuss.

(takes a load off)

.......sound of crickets chirping..........


;D
I interpreted the silence as your having the final word, and all agreed to the wisdom of that proclamation.   ;)

I'll accept that answer!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 10, 2010, 02:22:04 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 08, 2010, 12:28:22 AM
Blocked kicks can by heartbreakers for the team that has been blocked.

Ohio Wesleyan has had five punts blocked and others batted away (as noted by their defensive stats showing seven blocks...some shoddy statwork there, Lou). Their GROSS punting average is 22.9 for the year.

Ouch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 12, 2010, 12:22:38 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 10, 2010, 02:22:04 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 08, 2010, 12:28:22 AM
Blocked kicks can by heartbreakers for the team that has been blocked.

Ohio Wesleyan has had five punts blocked and others batted away (as noted by their defensive stats showing seven blocks...some shoddy statwork there, Lou). Their GROSS punting average is 22.9 for the year.

Ouch.

After their 6th loss, it improved to 24.4! They averaged 36 yards a kick and didn't have one blocked.

Still, the Bishops should probably play by Madden rules...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dlippiel on October 15, 2010, 08:15:05 AM
Great ATN this week Keith! dlip is a HUGE fan of the triple option offense and has always said that it causes many problems for the opposition for many of the same reasons you mentioned. Out here in the East region year in and year out we see teams like Delong and the Pride drive opponents crazy. Most teams  struggle with their game preparation and defensive execution trying to stop this potent offense. Yet on the other side we have seen time and again (not always of course) when a triple option team gets behind early they struggle playing catch up and many times are forced out of their comfort zone. Thanks for the article!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 15, 2010, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: dlip on October 15, 2010, 08:15:05 AM
Great ATN this week Keith! dlip is a HUGE fan of the triple option offense and has always said that it causes many problems for the opposition for many of the same reasons you mentioned. Out here in the East region year in and year out we see teams like Delong and the Pride drive opponents crazy. Most teams  struggle with their game preparation and defensive execution trying to stop this potent offense. Yet on the other side we have seen time and again (not always of course) when a triple option team gets behind early they struggle playing catch up and many times are forced out of their comfort zone. Thanks for the article!

I'll pass on the triple option...how many teams you see go deep into the playoffs with that offense?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 15, 2010, 05:11:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on October 15, 2010, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: dlip on October 15, 2010, 08:15:05 AM
Great ATN this week Keith! dlip is a HUGE fan of the triple option offense and has always said that it causes many problems for the opposition for many of the same reasons you mentioned. Out here in the East region year in and year out we see teams like Delong and the Pride drive opponents crazy. Most teams  struggle with their game preparation and defensive execution trying to stop this potent offense. Yet on the other side we have seen time and again (not always of course) when a triple option team gets behind early they struggle playing catch up and many times are forced out of their comfort zone. Thanks for the article!

I'll pass on the triple option...how many teams you see go deep into the playoffs with that offense?

I agree with 02.  It's kind of like the spread was 20 years ago.  A gimmick offense that allows a marginally talented team to be better.  Not great, but better.  It's a great high school offense though.

A truly one dimensional team, whether all pass or all run, is likely going to face someone in the playoffs that is a terrible match up and lose.  I will say that a dominant running game is less weather dependent and therefore less upset-likely than a pass happy offense, but you have to have some balance to win deep in the playoffs.   If you're not balanced offensively, you better have a lights-out defense to offset it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WarhawkDad on October 15, 2010, 11:29:50 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 08, 2010, 09:30:08 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 08, 2010, 08:01:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 30, 2010, 08:53:32 PM
Awesome. I am clearly not writing about anything that anyone cares to discuss.

(takes a load off)


.......sound of crickets chirping..........


;D
I interpreted the silence as your having the final word, and all agreed to the wisdom of that proclamation.   ;)


Kind of what I thought too!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WarhawkDad on October 15, 2010, 11:31:37 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on October 15, 2010, 04:01:18 PM
Quote from: dlip on October 15, 2010, 08:15:05 AM
Great ATN this week Keith! dlip is a HUGE fan of the triple option offense and has always said that it causes many problems for the opposition for many of the same reasons you mentioned. Out here in the East region year in and year out we see teams like Delong and the Pride drive opponents crazy. Most teams  struggle with their game preparation and defensive execution trying to stop this potent offense. Yet on the other side we have seen time and again (not always of course) when a triple option team gets behind early they struggle playing catch up and many times are forced out of their comfort zone. Thanks for the article!

I'll pass on the triple option...how many teams you see go deep into the playoffs with that offense?

Well 02, triple option, maybe not, how about triple threat.....when healthy,  Stanley, Coppage, Anderson.  Looks like three options to me!   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 108Vincent on October 17, 2010, 05:41:45 PM
This might not be the best place to post this, but I just read the Dave DeLand article you had a link to about SJU/What D3 is and isn't, and I wanted to add some thoughts.  Yesterday, I spent $10 to take a family of four to a good, quality football game between Ohio Northern and Baldwin-Wallace.  My wife and daughters don't get as much out of the game as I do, but they think the pep band is great.  All in all, it was a really nice Saturday afternoon for everyone.

In contrast, my buddy (who I consider a D3 convert) is a longtime UGA fan.  He was able to get tickets to a game in Athens, but the cost was fairly substantial (more than $10).  It was difficult to see much action on the field, so he spent most of the game looking at the Jumbo-tron.  There were a good number of drunk students in his seating section, one of whom vomited on the steps next to him.  He was also a little annoyed with the number of TV-timeouts.  There is something to be said for witnessing the spectacle of an event that draws 80K, but he probably won't make the effort to attend another Dawgs game anytime soon.

So if you're a fan of the game of football, I think the question is, do you want to see a good football game or do you want to see the spectacle of a football game?  The more true fans of the game become aware of what D3 offers, the more I think they'll choose the former.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on October 17, 2010, 07:38:09 PM
Well said 108!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:48:48 PM
Quote from: 108Vincent on October 17, 2010, 05:41:45 PM
This might not be the best place to post this, but I just read the Dave DeLand article you had a link to about SJU/What D3 is and isn't, and I wanted to add some thoughts.  Yesterday, I spent $10 to take a family of four to a good, quality football game between Ohio Northern and Baldwin-Wallace.  My wife and daughters don't get as much out of the game as I do, but they think the pep band is great.  All in all, it was a really nice Saturday afternoon for everyone.

In contrast, my buddy (who I consider a D3 convert) is a longtime UGA fan.  He was able to get tickets to a game in Athens, but the cost was fairly substantial (more than $10).  It was difficult to see much action on the field, so he spent most of the game looking at the Jumbo-tron.  There were a good number of drunk students in his seating section, one of whom vomited on the steps next to him.  He was also a little annoyed with the number of TV-timeouts.  There is something to be said for witnessing the spectacle of an event that draws 80K, but he probably won't make the effort to attend another Dawgs game anytime soon.

So if you're a fan of the game of football, I think the question is, do you want to see a good football game or do you want to see the spectacle of a football game?  The more true fans of the game become aware of what D3 offers, the more I think they'll choose the former.

First, it most certainly is. A lot of good over the years has come from this being the catch-all board.

Second, I try not to get into DI vs. DIII wars, as fans of football enjoy both. But you make a very strong case for the DIII game -- more game, less pomp. (can you have pomp without circumstance?) I also pay less and less attention to DI largely because of the fact that I don't care about what they're playing for. They might as well be a random series of exhibitions, as I have no love for the way they choose to decide a champion.

That's beside your original point, but "care" or lack of it is one reason I think people don't get into D-III until they know someone affiliated with the team or school itself, whereas people in say, Alabama, are raised rooting for Alabama or Auburn even if mom went to Birmingham-Southern and Dad never attended college. There's got to be some intial connection -- be it knowing someone who plays or coaches, being part of the community or whatever -- but usually when people find D3 they end up loving it, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned.

Your football-per-dollar is probably greatest at our level -- the plays of the week are a great reminder that you see standout plays in every game.

But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.

Great post either way.

. I do think the experience per dollar spent --
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: USee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

I don't know off top, I'd probably be wise to read all the points you're making.

My intial thoughts are that I'd probably still like to see a CCIW team get to Salem before putting it up there with WIAC and OAC, but then again, back in the early days, we never let lack of a championship contender stop the WIAC from being No. 1 because of its competitive depth, which is very similar to the CCIW right now.

Its also fair to wonder how the CCIW would do if it didn't have to go through MUC all the time. But those are long-term historical questions.

For this year alone, I'd say the 51-20 Wheaton win over Platteville would be a pretty compelling point for the CCIW if both teams finish second. Would we then go down the line and see who would beat who 1 vs. 1 through 8 vs. 8?

Could the CCIW simply leapfrog the OAC on the basis of overall depth? Very possible.

I imagine these are some of the points being made. I'll check it out later.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 20, 2010, 04:20:19 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: USee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

I don't know off top, I'd probably be wise to read all the points you're making.

My intial thoughts are that I'd probably still like to see a CCIW team get to Salem before putting it up there with WIAC and OAC, but then again, back in the early days, we never let lack of a championship contender stop the WIAC from being No. 1 because of its competitive depth, which is very similar to the CCIW right now.

Its also fair to wonder how the CCIW would do if it didn't have to go through MUC all the time. But those are long-term historical questions.

For this year alone, I'd say the 51-20 Wheaton win over Platteville would be a pretty compelling point for the CCIW if both teams finish second. Would we then go down the line and see who would beat who 1 vs. 1 through 8 vs. 8?

Could the CCIW simply leapfrog the OAC on the basis of overall depth? Very possible.

I imagine these are some of the points being made. I'll check it out later.

If you're gonna talk 'long-term' history, don't forget Augie's four consecutive titles! ;D

You are so right about the Mount Union (and, lately, UWW) barrier.  The ONLY time in the last decade+ that neither UMU or UWW was in the North, Wheaton won it.  In fact, Wheaton has NEVER lost a playoff game to a team not named Mount Union.  IF all the stars align this year, perhaps UMU will 'go east' and UWW will not be imported to supplant NCC or Wheaton as the #1 in 'the north'.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 108Vincent on October 20, 2010, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:48:48 PM
But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.


So, I guess I'll keep my anti-NFL rant to myself  :).  i'm also a DI fan - a Buckeye for life, and I'd like to someday make a trip to Columbus to witness the spectacle, but given the cost and logistics, I don't know when that would happen.  I've been to three ONU games this year because they're the closest to where I live and I know I'm going to see quality football, but I'm actually a covert Mount Union guy.  As much as I can, I try to follow and support my local d3 program which was Shenandoah when we were in VA and Wheaton when we were in IL. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 20, 2010, 07:11:47 PM
Keith

For the year-end feature on unique occurrences, six different players scored CWRU's six Tds in the Spartans' 41-0 win over Hiram.  For two, it was their first of the year.  For another two, the first of their career.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on October 21, 2010, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: USee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

I don't know off top, I'd probably be wise to read all the points you're making.

My intial thoughts are that I'd probably still like to see a CCIW team get to Salem before putting it up there with WIAC and OAC, but then again, back in the early days, we never let lack of a championship contender stop the WIAC from being No. 1 because of its competitive depth, which is very similar to the CCIW right now.

Its also fair to wonder how the CCIW would do if it didn't have to go through MUC all the time. But those are long-term historical questions.

For this year alone, I'd say the 51-20 Wheaton win over Platteville would be a pretty compelling point for the CCIW if both teams finish second. Would we then go down the line and see who would beat who 1 vs. 1 through 8 vs. 8?

Could the CCIW simply leapfrog the OAC on the basis of overall depth? Very possible.

I imagine these are some of the points being made. I'll check it out later.

If Wheaton and Platteville finish 2nd in the CCIW and WIAC, respectively, that would probably place North Central 1st in the CCIW & UW-EC 3rd place or below in the WIAC. The fact that NCC could only get past EC 20-6 should also have some influence on the decision making process, right?  ;)  Most of the WIAC posters acknowledge the fine job the Pioneers have done recently, but consider 3 out of the final 4 games as difficult ones for them. They maybe in a 3-way tie for 2nd at the moment, but few expect them to finish in that position.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 12:28:35 PM
I was not implying I thought the CCIW is a better conference. I am not sure there is any evidence of that. I agree with BoBo in that I will be very surprised if UWP finishes 2nd in their conference. I also don't think the 20-6 score vs UWEC has any meaning other than to prove NCC has a dominant defense. The NCC offense is young and will continue to get better every week (unfortunately). This is a much different NCC team than years past when they played decent defense behind a dominant offense and then in the playoffs they faced great defense and good offenses. If you play championship caliber defense you will have a chance come playoff time. (see Wittenberg in 2009).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 05:55:53 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on October 20, 2010, 07:11:47 PM
Keith

For the year-end feature on unique occurrences, six different players scored CWRU's six Tds in the Spartans' 41-0 win over Hiram.  For two, it was their first of the year.  For another two, the first of their career.

Noted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 108Vincent on October 21, 2010, 07:13:46 PM
RE: Today's column on keeping focus.  We fans tend to sometimes forget the academic pressures on the players.  No breaks are given to D3 student-athletes and sometimes they receive additional scrutiny from faculty.  A friend that was a starter on a championship team once confided that, given his heavy course load that semester, he was continually conflicted between wanting to get to Salem and wishing it was all over with.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 21, 2010, 08:26:48 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 05:55:53 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on October 20, 2010, 07:11:47 PM
Keith

For the year-end feature on unique occurrences, six different players scored CWRU's six Tds in the Spartans' 41-0 win over Hiram.  For two, it was their first of the year.  For another two, the first of their career.

Noted.

My error Keith, it 2 firs of the year 3 first of their careers (1 Fr and 2 who switched from D to O)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 08:44:30 PM
Quote from: 108Vincent on October 20, 2010, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:48:48 PM
But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.


So, I guess I'll keep my anti-NFL rant to myself  :).  i'm also a DI fan - a Buckeye for life, and I'd like to someday make a trip to Columbus to witness the spectacle, but given the cost and logistics, I don't know when that would happen.  I've been to three ONU games this year because they're the closest to where I live and I know I'm going to see quality football, but I'm actually a covert Mount Union guy.  As much as I can, I try to follow and support my local d3 program which was Shenandoah when we were in VA and Wheaton when we were in IL. 

What's taking you all over the place?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 09:02:23 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 20, 2010, 04:20:19 PMIF all the stars align this year, perhaps UMU will 'go east' and UWW will not be imported to supplant NCC or Wheaton as the #1 in 'the north'.

So early for possible No. 1 scenarios, but I can't help myself.

It all depends on how many Eastern (and southern and far Western) teams are in the 32, and how they balance out. But some thoughts:

Montclair State and St. John Fisher have dibs on the East's No. 1. Mount Union has never been moved in over a 10-0 East team from a top conference.

Keep in mind Wesley could be a No. 1 in the East. Upstate NY and Ohio are a more likely marriage I guess, but technically, Wesley could serve that purpose. Or lose to Salisbury and not be a No. 1 at all.

I guess if that happened, UMHB would have to be the South No. 1 and Wesley the East No. 1.

If someone makes Mount Union be King of the East again, my guess is blame St. Thomas. (And NJAC/E8.) Assuming they beat Bethel this Saturday.

This is a future ATN topic.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 21, 2010, 09:24:15 PM
Agreed that it is awfully early for playoff speculation, but I, too, can't resist!

IF they finish 10-0, I gotta think the NCC/Wheaton winner deserves a #1.  Since the selection committee seems now to go with four #1s (rather than traditional regions), I can't see anyone in the 'east' who would deserve a spot over UWW, UMU, Wesley, UMHB, and NCC/Wheaton (with Witt and St. Thomas as wild cards to 'the party') - admittedly, that is still far too many for all to get a #1 seed!

Perhaps we should resume this in a couple of weeks! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 10:05:39 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 21, 2010, 09:24:15 PMIF they finish 10-0, I gotta think the NCC/Wheaton winner deserves a #1.  Since the selection committee seems now to go with four #1s (rather than traditional regions), I can't see anyone in the 'east' who would deserve a spot over UWW, UMU, Wesley, UMHB, and NCC/Wheaton (with Witt and St. Thomas as wild cards to 'the party') - admittedly, that is still far too many for all to get a #1 seed!

I don't think that's quite how the committee's operate though. It's not so much seeking a definitive 1 through 4 but seeking a top-8-to-10 team worth building a bracket around. If an east team from the NJAC or Empire 8 were undefeated, and in some years the MAC or LL, it would almost always get a chance to be a No. 1.

Each year MUC has been the "East" No. 1, it's been in the absence of another undefeated team that stacks up well on the critieria and is within 500 miles of at least six eastern teams :D

I bought in heavily to North Central two years ago, but I don't know that the CCIW champ has much of a shot at the fourth No. 1 this year. Would put St. Thomas at the front of that line if we're talking sheer worthiness to date, and also, let's see how the CCIW and MIAC shake out. (ASC looks like a good bet to let UMHB go 10-0, though not sure how nationally dangerous they'll be this year)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 10:34:50 PM
Pretty random but I thought this was neat:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39688951/

About a CEO/former coach who wants to become a head coach again.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 108Vincent on October 22, 2010, 06:09:46 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 08:44:30 PM
Quote from: 108Vincent on October 20, 2010, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:48:48 PM
But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.


So, I guess I'll keep my anti-NFL rant to myself  :).  i'm also a DI fan - a Buckeye for life, and I'd like to someday make a trip to Columbus to witness the spectacle, but given the cost and logistics, I don't know when that would happen.  I've been to three ONU games this year because they're the closest to where I live and I know I'm going to see quality football, but I'm actually a covert Mount Union guy.  As much as I can, I try to follow and support my local d3 program which was Shenandoah when we were in VA and Wheaton when we were in IL.  

What's taking you all over the place?

Work.  Most moves are planned, some are not, but we make the best of wherever we land.  It's funny you ask, because I just accepted a position in Eastern PA.  If I get a free Saturday down the road, I might be checking out Muhlenberg, Delaware Valley, or Ursinus.  I'll have to get some advice on the MAC and CC boards as to the best venues.  Tomorrow though, it's a trip across Ohio to Alliance to see my Purple Raiders for the first time in a couple years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 22, 2010, 11:51:12 PM
Keith- why do you think St Thomas deserves #1 over ncc? St johns played UWEC and St THomas close and NCC dominated UWEC. I don't see the rationale for ranking them ahead. What am I missing?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 12:37:07 AM
Year in review:

Everythign about this game:

http://lcpioneers.com/sports/fball/2010-11/files/UPS1023.HTM
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 25, 2010, 01:00:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 12:37:07 AM
Year in review:

Everythign about this game:

http://lcpioneers.com/sports/fball/2010-11/files/UPS1023.HTM

Yeah, I was gonna suggest that game for YIR, but (correctly) assumed it wasn't necessary! ;)

Damned budget cuts - neither team could afford to dress their defense! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 25, 2010, 01:05:33 AM
Holy Basketball score!! And a tight game to boot. Qb passes for 625 yds in a game? what's the single game record?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:18:08 AM
Quote from: USee on October 25, 2010, 01:05:33 AM
Holy Basketball score!! And a tight game to boot. Qb passes for 625 yds in a game? what's the single game record?

730 I think. Menlo, 2001? Zamir Amin. Nate Jackson was in that game.

There was another 700+ a few years back, IIRC.

The best things about that L&C 64, UPS 61 game, as Pat & I just talked about in the podcast:
The L&C drive chart (It's like TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, punt, TD, TD, punt, TD)
The fact that UPS rallied from down 61-42 with 8 mins left to take a 64-61 lead with 27 seconds left, and then L&C scored with 1 second left to win anyway.
L&C rushed for 260 yards, UPS (-7). (or UPS rushed for -7 and still had 650 of offense)
The fact there were 6 fourth-down conversions in 6 tries.

I'm listening to anything you notice. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:40:21 AM
Soliciting specific things you want to have answered in this week's ATN.

Can an East Region/Eastern team win a Stagg Bowl?
Will an East Region team be a No. 1 seed in the playoffs this year.

Anything related to either of these lines of questioning that you want me to ask the principles?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 25, 2010, 08:09:32 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:40:21 AM

Can an East Region/Eastern team win a Stagg Bowl?


Only if you consider Mount Union an eastern team.  ;)


Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:40:21 AM

Will an East Region team be a No. 1 seed in the playoffs this year.


Maybe.  Montclair State is the east's only hope, but they have a huge test test this Saturday at Cortland State.  If Montclair loses, then IMHO there is no way the east gets one of their own teams as their bracket head.  Mount Union or Wesley would be a more likely #1 in the east.

What gets interesting in my mind is what you do in the other regions to balance it out, if anything.  The West has two #1 candidates in Whitewater and St Thomas, the North has two in Mount Union and North Central (or Wheaton) and the South has Wesley and Mary Hardin Baylor, though the Crusaders are living on borrowed time and look like the weakest of the possible #1's by a wide margin.   



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 25, 2010, 10:12:15 AM
I wouldn't count Delaware Valley out of the #1 seed race. While the NCAA committee broke new ground in stating, and actually trying, to get the top 4 teams as #1's, it isn't obious to me that they are comfortable moving teams into regions where there are already undefeated teams already in the region. I suspect if you end up with Montclair and Del Valley undefeated you will see UWW and St Thomas stay West, UMU and NCC/Wheaton stay North and Wesley/UMHB stay south.

We have seen a lot of  movement between regions in recent years leading to much speculation about who and where. Most of the time it has been out of accomodation. We shouldn't jump the gun and assume a "regional reshuffling". I would think the committee may be just as content to let teams slug it out within their region when it's possible.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 25, 2010, 10:37:10 AM
Can a single game in which one side passes for 600+ yards be rightfully called football? Or is it really something else?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 25, 2010, 10:57:10 AM
Quote from: frank uible on October 25, 2010, 10:37:10 AM
Can a single game in which one side passes for 600+ yards be rightfully called football? Or is it really something else?

It's definitely football, Frank.  The question you should ask is if what the *other* side was playing could be called defense.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 108Vincent on October 25, 2010, 12:00:04 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:40:21 AM
Soliciting specific things you want to have answered in this week's ATN.

Can an East Region/Eastern team win a Stagg Bowl?
Will an East Region team be a No. 1 seed in the playoffs this year.

Anything related to either of these lines of questioning that you want me to ask the principles?

If Ohio Northern finishes 9 - 1, you'd think they're positioned pretty well for a pool C bid.  Is it safe to assume that they would be placed in the East bracket if Mount Union was in the North bracket, or stay in the North if UMU went to the East?  Or is putting the #2 OAC team in the South or West a possibility?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on October 25, 2010, 01:02:15 PM
As Keith stated above, the brackets are built around #1 seeds based on geographical proximity to avoid travel costs. You can't predict right now who may go where in isolation and it's a bit early to be putting together a mock bracket with so many critical games still to play in the next week or 2.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 25, 2010, 02:55:57 PM
Quote from: 108Vincent on October 25, 2010, 12:00:04 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:40:21 AM
Soliciting specific things you want to have answered in this week's ATN.

Can an East Region/Eastern team win a Stagg Bowl?
Will an East Region team be a No. 1 seed in the playoffs this year.

Anything related to either of these lines of questioning that you want me to ask the principles?

If Ohio Northern finishes 9 - 1, you'd think they're positioned pretty well for a pool C bid.  Is it safe to assume that they would be placed in the East bracket if Mount Union was in the North bracket, or stay in the North if UMU went to the East?  Or is putting the #2 OAC team in the South or West a possibility?

The committee hasn't separated the OAC teams very often but it's more likely Mount Union will move than Ohio Northern because Mount Union is further East.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 25, 2010, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: USee on October 25, 2010, 10:12:15 AM
I wouldn't count Delaware Valley out of the #1 seed race. While the NCAA committee broke new ground in stating, and actually trying, to get the top 4 teams as #1's, it isn't obious to me that they are comfortable moving teams into regions where there are already undefeated teams already in the region. I suspect if you end up with Montclair and Del Valley undefeated you will see UWW and St Thomas stay West, UMU and NCC/Wheaton stay North and Wesley/UMHB stay south.

We have seen a lot of  movement between regions in recent years leading to much speculation about who and where. Most of the time it has been out of accomodation. We shouldn't jump the gun and assume a "regional reshuffling". I would think the committee may be just as content to let teams slug it out within their region when it's possible.

I left Delaware Valley off the list because they've lost already.  Yes, it was to Wesley who is officially a south region team, but I assume the NCAA won't give a 9-1 team the #1 seed in the east when the north has two legit candidates, one of which has already been moved east  before to give that bracket an undefeated #1 seed.  With the NCAA's shifting of Mount the last few years to the east, it seems logical to think that they'll do it again if the situation plays out that the traditional east is without an undefeated team.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 25, 2010, 04:17:21 PM
^ Nevermind.   Please disregard my above post.  The words "NCAA" and "logical" placed in the same sentence makes the whole post junk.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2010, 09:52:37 PM
Del Valley-Wesley was an in-region game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 25, 2010, 10:02:34 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2010, 09:52:37 PM
Del Valley-Wesley was an in-region game.

Ah, then scratch Del Valley off the list of potential #1's.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 26, 2010, 02:29:00 PM
Just for the record, Pat and I address all of this (and make some of the same points) in the podcast. If you have, oh, an hour or so to spare.

This from Rick Reilly in the latest why-isn't-Boise-State-treated-fairly-by-the-BCS column (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5725597):

QuoteIt's the biggest rip-off since the Nigerian prince scam. It makes you wonder why you watch college football at all.

:o
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 26, 2010, 02:32:19 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 26, 2010, 02:29:00 PM
Just for the record, Pat and I address all of this (and make some of the same points) in the podcast. If you have, oh, an hour or so to spare.

This from Rick Reilly in the latest why-isn't-Boise-State-treated-fairly-by-the-BCS column (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5725597):

QuoteIt's the biggest rip-off since the Nigerian prince scam. It makes you wonder why you watch college football at all.

:o

Good to know that D3 does it correctly.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 26, 2010, 11:59:48 PM
Just found an old column with a couple ideas in it:

We need to have the Bridgewater/Franklin/St. John's (Wesley?) tailgate-off in Salem this year.

Also we need to have the unofficial (for liability reasons) D-III alumni flag game, the morning of Stagg, somewhere in Roanoke or Salem. Make this happen!

(wait, that's my job?)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 11:41:44 AM
Regarding this weeks ATN article.

I'm not buying the 'too many schools in a small location' argument. It completely ignores the population of many of these states. Massachusetts, PA, NJ, NY are not exactly hard up for people. Yes, they've got a lot of colleges (some very good ones by the way), but they've got loads of people as well.

Case in Point. Keith mentions Massachusetts having 20 DIII schools. Here's a fair comparison:

Massachusetts: population 6.6 million

Iowa: pop 3 million – 19 small college teams*, FCS: UNI, Drake
Minnesota: pop 5.2 million – 16 small college teams, 8 D II (doesn't even take into consideration the pillaging UND, NDSU, SDSU & USD do with MN HS players)
Wisconsin: pop 5.6 mill - 16 Small college teams

That sure looks like apples to apples to me. You could even make the case that the latter 3 have it tougher given the schools and population numbers. But you don't hear us crying and we've put some very competitive teams on the national stage.

And if you take the last 20 years. It hasn't been just Mount & UWW. You have to include UWLax, SJU, PLU, & Linfield as national champs.

Bottom line, I think the East just needs to improve. Rowan was right on the cusp for years, as the article states. Ithaca made hay for a while. What, the population suddenly decreased out there since the 80's and 90's? Teams from the East can and have competed in the past. They don't have any real limitations from what I can see.

I don't think this is anything more than better football players and coaches in the other regions.

*Small college teams = DIII or NAIA. You have to consider NAIA schools in this equation because they are a definite recruiting hurdle DIII schools with NAIA fb neighbors face. Much more so than even D II and FCS.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 29, 2010, 12:08:53 PM
It is a matter of emphasis. As a general proposition college football is more important to the people of Wisconsin than to the people of Massachusetts, and consequently there is better college football in Wisconsin than in Massachusetts.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 29, 2010, 04:22:45 PM
I don't buy the numbers thing either.  I agree more with Frank's point above.  I have loved Keith's writing over the years, but think this one is too easy of an excuse for the current eastern schools. 

There are a ton of colleges in Ohio fighting for a players in a population base that's ever shrinking.  Whereas the article makes it sound like only in the east region is their a tough time finding quality recruits due to numbers.    Here's a list of Ohio colleges that I made a few years ago that might be missing a couple new NAIA or D2 schools, but it makes my point regardless.

DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College


DIII
16.  Baldwin Wallace
17.  Bluffton
18.  Capital
19.  Case Westeren
20.  Defiance
21.  Dennison
22.  Heidelberg
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster

NAIA
37.  Ohio Domincan
38.  Malone – moving to D2
39.  Walsh – moving to D2
40. Notre Dame College – moving to D2 (I think)  / might already be D2
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 29, 2010, 05:39:58 PM
With regards to the East I think it's a mix of a couple factors.

NY Football hasn't been a hotbed of prime football talent lately, they're not where it once was with regards to the quality of players.  The number of D-1 Scholarship players out of NY has been declining lately, no big time schools come to NY to find football players.  The other states have lapped NY in regards to talent on the gridiron big time. 

A lot more programs are becoming more attractive to perspective players than before.  When you get programs that start to become relevant it takes talent away from the more traditional powers.  10 years ago all the good to great players at SJF would probably have ended up at Ithaca, Cortland or Buffalo State.  Does anyone really think that players like Jason Boltus (Hartwick) or Mark Robinson (SJF) would have went to their respective schools 10 years ago?  I sincerely doubt it.

Football Schools in NY:

DI-FBS (3)
Buffalo
Syracuse
Army Black Knights

D1-FCS (8)
Albany Great Danes
Colgate Red Raiders
Columbia Lions
Cornell Big Red
Fordham Rams
Marist Red Foxes
Stony Brook Seawolves
Wagner Seahawks

DII (2)
Pace Setters
C. W. Post Pioneers

DIII (17):
Alfred
Brockport Golden
Buffalo State
Cortland Red
Hartwick
Hamilton
Hobart
Ithaca
Merchant Marine
Morrisville
Rensselaer Polytechnic
Rochester Yellow
Saint John Fisher
Saint Lawrence
SUNY-Maritime
Union
Utica

NJCAA (6):
Alfred State
ASA
ECC
Global IT
Hudson Valley
Nassau

With the lack of talented players and more attractive options for graduating High School Seniors it has a big time effect on the quality of teams in the New York.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 29, 2010, 07:58:36 PM
The quality gap between Ohio college football and New York college football is nothing new. It existed in the 50s.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...

My impression (also no data) is that Ron is correct - the rise of soccer and lacrosse (and continued rise of basketball, not to mention the possible decline in sports, period, due to video games) makes me think football is simply not the 'religion' it was 20-30 years ago (in at least many places).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 29, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...

My impression (also no data) is that Ron is correct - the rise of soccer and lacrosse (and continued rise of basketball, not to mention the possible decline in sports, period, due to video games) makes me think football is simply not the 'religion' it was 20-30 years ago (in at least many places).

That and the fact that football is too tough of a sport for the sissies that society is breeding today...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 09:23:11 PM
Quote from: Upstate on October 29, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...

My impression (also no data) is that Ron is correct - the rise of soccer and lacrosse (and continued rise of basketball, not to mention the possible decline in sports, period, due to video games) makes me think football is simply not the 'religion' it was 20-30 years ago (in at least many places).

That and the fact that football is too tough of a sport for the sissies that society is breeding today...

You think lacrosse is a sissy sport??!!

My older son was the only real offensive threat on his high school team.  In the first 30 seconds of the first round of the playoffs (against a team he had scored 5 goals against), an opposing player broke his stick against the side of my son's knee.  It worked - David didn't score, and their team won.

Lacrosse can be a vicious game - I'm grateful David is now only playing (and coaching) soccer! ;D

BTW, soccer has more serious injuries per year than football.  Those football 'sissies' have far more padding than soccer or lacrosse! :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on October 29, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I think you'll just have to get used to the fact that some football players will never consider any other sport as tough as football  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 09:57:41 PM
Quote from: pg04 on October 29, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I think you'll just have to get used to the fact that some football players will never consider any other sport as tough as football  :P

Yeah, you're right.

Hard to get through to those over-padded sissies! ;D

Geez, my karma is going DOWN! :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 29, 2010, 11:34:05 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 09:23:11 PM
Quote from: Upstate on October 29, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...

My impression (also no data) is that Ron is correct - the rise of soccer and lacrosse (and continued rise of basketball, not to mention the possible decline in sports, period, due to video games) makes me think football is simply not the 'religion' it was 20-30 years ago (in at least many places).

That and the fact that football is too tough of a sport for the sissies that society is breeding today...

You think lacrosse is a sissy sport??!!

My older son was the only real offensive threat on his high school team.  In the first 30 seconds of the first round of the playoffs (against a team he had scored 5 goals against), an opposing player broke his stick against the side of my son's knee.  It worked - David didn't score, and their team won.

Lacrosse can be a vicious game - I'm grateful David is now only playing (and coaching) soccer! ;D

BTW, soccer has more serious injuries per year than football.  Those football 'sissies' have far more padding than soccer or lacrosse! :P

nonononono

Didn't mean that at all.  I have a ton of respect for LAX players, they're extremely tough.  Hell SJF's best WR is a standout LAX player.

I was talking about sissies period.  Kids don't want to work for anything today, when they're pushed they usually just quit. 

In no way was I trying to make one sport seem tougher than another!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 30, 2010, 12:20:42 AM
Quote from: Upstate on October 29, 2010, 11:34:05 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 09:23:11 PM
Quote from: Upstate on October 29, 2010, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east? 

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...

My impression (also no data) is that Ron is correct - the rise of soccer and lacrosse (and continued rise of basketball, not to mention the possible decline in sports, period, due to video games) makes me think football is simply not the 'religion' it was 20-30 years ago (in at least many places).

That and the fact that football is too tough of a sport for the sissies that society is breeding today...

You think lacrosse is a sissy sport??!!

My older son was the only real offensive threat on his high school team.  In the first 30 seconds of the first round of the playoffs (against a team he had scored 5 goals against), an opposing player broke his stick against the side of my son's knee.  It worked - David didn't score, and their team won.

Lacrosse can be a vicious game - I'm grateful David is now only playing (and coaching) soccer! ;D

BTW, soccer has more serious injuries per year than football.  Those football 'sissies' have far more padding than soccer or lacrosse! :P

nonononono

Didn't mean that at all.  I have a ton of respect for LAX players, they're extremely tough.  Hell SJF's best WR is a standout LAX player.

I was talking about sissies period.  Kids don't want to work for anything today, when they're pushed they usually just quit. 

In no way was I trying to make one sport seem tougher than another!

OK, we're on the same page.

By far the best soccer player in Ypsilanti (at age ten) was my son's best friend across the street (I was their coach).  Alas, he got his growth VERY late (to his great humiliation, his 'baby' sister, 2 years younger, was TALLER than him for a couple of years!)  To his credit, he stuck it out in soccer, but he never even made varsity in hs.  After being 5'6" as a hs junior, he is now 6'4", but has gotten addicted to video games - his potential was never even tested.

OK, that was a boring diversion! ;D  My point was that, yes, video gaming has sapped some of the skills/talents out of the current generation.  Whether or not the remaining potential players will be just as good as ever remains to be seen.

Games are games, and each have their skill set.  Jim Brown (arguably the greatest player in NFL history) much preferred lacrosse to football, but recognized where the money was! :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2010, 05:08:15 AM
My clam digger is bigger than your clam digger!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 30, 2010, 08:22:50 AM
Hmmm, where I'm from, having a big clam is not a good thing.

But to each his own.  Proves that there truly someone for everyone.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on October 30, 2010, 10:55:48 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2010, 04:36:53 PM
I've heard that high school football is declining in popularity in many parts of the country; could that be a factor in the east?  

Really?? I think it's the opposite. But I have no data to back that up...

My impression (also no data) is that Ron is correct - the rise of soccer and lacrosse (and continued rise of basketball, not to mention the possible decline in sports, period, due to video games) makes me think football is simply not the 'religion' it was 20-30 years ago (in at least many places).
Boys 11-man Football Participation Statistics From the NFHS
YearSchoolsStudents
2009-2010142261109278
2008-2009141051112303
2007-2008139871108286
2006-2007139221104548
2005-2006137271071775
2004-2005136711045494
2003-2004136801032682
2002-2003136421023142
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: CardinalAlum on October 31, 2010, 01:12:59 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 30, 2010, 08:22:50 AM
Hmmm, where I'm from, having a big clam is not a good thing.

But to each his own.  Proves that there truly someone for everyone.

This made me bust out laughing!!  +K
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 31, 2010, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: altor on October 30, 2010, 10:55:48 PM
Boys 11-man Football Participation Statistics From the NFHS
YearSchoolsStudents
2009-2010142261109278
2008-2009141051112303
2007-2008139871108286
2006-2007139221104548
2005-2006137271071775
2004-2005136711045494
2003-2004136801032682
2002-2003136421023142

Is the male student population going up as well or is staying the same?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 31, 2010, 08:05:02 PM
Quote from: Upstate on October 31, 2010, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: altor on October 30, 2010, 10:55:48 PM
Boys 11-man Football Participation Statistics From the NFHS
YearSchoolsStudents
2009-2010142261109278
2008-2009141051112303
2007-2008139871108286
2006-2007139221104548
2005-2006137271071775
2004-2005136711045494
2003-2004136801032682
2002-2003136421023142

Is the male student population going up as well or is staying the same?



And, in addition, these are peanut butter stats.  My specific assertion (as of yet unproven with quantitative fact) is that in certain parts of the country (such as the east), football is declining in popularity at the HS level.  The above numbers do not disprove that assertion.    I did say 'many' when perhaps 'some' would have been a more proper qualifier. 

If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to be proven incorrect, but know I've seen programs bemoaning the state of high school football in certain parts of the country.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on November 02, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 31, 2010, 08:05:02 PM
And, in addition, these are peanut butter stats.  My specific assertion (as of yet unproven with quantitative fact) is that in certain parts of the country (such as the east), football is declining in popularity at the HS level.

I'm not sure what "peanut butter stats" are.
Here is the NFHS page on participation statistics (http://www.nfhs.org/Participation/SportSearch.aspx) so you can look for yourself.

In my quick searches from Maine to Maryland, only Vermont had fewer sponsoring schools and fewer participants in 2009-2010 than they did in 2002-2003.  Also, New Jersey had fewer schools, but more participants during that span.  The other nine states all showed increased participation in both categories.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 02, 2010, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: altor on November 02, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 31, 2010, 08:05:02 PM
And, in addition, these are peanut butter stats.  My specific assertion (as of yet unproven with quantitative fact) is that in certain parts of the country (such as the east), football is declining in popularity at the HS level.

I'm not sure what "peanut butter stats" are.
Here is the NFHS page on participation statistics (http://www.nfhs.org/Participation/SportSearch.aspx) so you can look for yourself.

In my quick searches from Maine to Maryland, only Vermont had fewer sponsoring schools and fewer participants in 2009-2010 than they did in 2002-2003.  Also, New Jersey had fewer schools, but more participants during that span.  The other nine states all showed increased participation in both categories.
Thanks.

I know that it took more time and extra effort, but the precision and extra content of your post helps us understand the nature of the topic being discussed.

+1!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: altor on November 02, 2010, 12:03:41 PM
Actually Ralph,
It took more time to search, copy, and put those numbers into that table (that still looked awful) in my first post.  I should have just put the link in that post so they could search for whatever data they wanted.  I don't know why I didn't, I usually do.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2010, 12:50:51 PM
Peanut butter stats stick to the roof of one's mouth.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 02, 2010, 07:38:54 PM
Quote from: altor on November 02, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 31, 2010, 08:05:02 PM
And, in addition, these are peanut butter stats.  My specific assertion (as of yet unproven with quantitative fact) is that in certain parts of the country (such as the east), football is declining in popularity at the HS level.

I'm not sure what "peanut butter stats" are.
Here is the NFHS page on participation statistics (http://www.nfhs.org/Participation/SportSearch.aspx) so you can look for yourself.

In my quick searches from Maine to Maryland, only Vermont had fewer sponsoring schools and fewer participants in 2009-2010 than they did in 2002-2003.  Also, New Jersey had fewer schools, but more participants during that span.  The other nine states all showed increased participation in both categories.

I stand (mostly) corrected. 

That said, participation is down substantially in MN (27K to 25K), 50 fewer schools offer it in IA and overall participation is down from 20K to 19K, IL participation is flat (while 20 more schools offer it now), WI has gone down from 30.5K to 29.4K.  There are some small pockets where participation is down, but it's not as prevalent as I thought, and my theory about the east coast looks all wet.   +1 to altor and thanks.

'Peanut butter' stats refer to using one big number to represent a position rather than examining the underlying data in detail.  I guess it was chunky peanut butter and now we can look at the chunks themselves. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 02, 2010, 09:46:23 PM
More fundamentally, participation does not necessarily equal passion.  Here in SE Michigan, I have no idea about the participation numbers, but I am almost certain that passion for football is not what it was 30 years ago.

At one time, the QB and the homecoming 'king' were guaranteed to be the same guy - not true now! ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 02, 2010, 09:56:06 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 02, 2010, 07:38:54 PM
Quote from: altor on November 02, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 31, 2010, 08:05:02 PM
And, in addition, these are peanut butter stats.  My specific assertion (as of yet unproven with quantitative fact) is that in certain parts of the country (such as the east), football is declining in popularity at the HS level.

I'm not sure what "peanut butter stats" are.
Here is the NFHS page on participation statistics (http://www.nfhs.org/Participation/SportSearch.aspx) so you can look for yourself.

In my quick searches from Maine to Maryland, only Vermont had fewer sponsoring schools and fewer participants in 2009-2010 than they did in 2002-2003.  Also, New Jersey had fewer schools, but more participants during that span.  The other nine states all showed increased participation in both categories.

I stand (mostly) corrected. 

That said, participation is down substantially in MN (27K to 25K), 50 fewer schools offer it in IA and overall participation is down from 20K to 19K, IL participation is flat (while 20 more schools offer it now), WI has gone down from 30.5K to 29.4K.  There are some small pockets where participation is down, but it's not as prevalent as I thought, and my theory about the east coast looks all wet.   +1 to altor and thanks.

'Peanut butter' stats refer to using one big number to represent a position rather than examining the underlying data in detail.  I guess it was chunky peanut butter and now we can look at the chunks themselves. 
Some of that in the midwest is due to population shifts.  To corroborate that thought, compare the reallocation of members of the House of Representatives from those states that will occur after the 2010 census.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2010, 03:04:01 PM
Quote from: frank uible on October 29, 2010, 12:08:53 PM
It is a matter of emphasis. As a general proposition college football is more important to the people of Wisconsin than to the people of Massachusetts, and consequently there is better college football in Wisconsin than in Massachusetts.

Yeah, that's something that I left out that maybe I should not have.

J.B. Wells had a really good way of saying it, that in the East there's passion for football, in the Midwest it's more like a religion.

Plus there's the argument that in Massachusetts, for instance, pro sports siphon more interest. Because they actually care about things like basketball and hockey, which they do in Chicago, but not as much in, say, Ohio.

At some point I worry about my ATN's being too long and reading awkwardly and I actually leave things out :) Occasionally.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2010, 03:10:23 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2010, 09:57:41 PM
Quote from: pg04 on October 29, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I think you'll just have to get used to the fact that some football players will never consider any other sport as tough as football  :P

Yeah, you're right.

Hard to get through to those over-padded sissies! ;D

Geez, my karma is going DOWN! :P

As someone who has played several sports and covered just about every one under the sun, let me say that there are no really easy sports. Swimming is probably as strenous as anything, and it's got no tough guy rep. Rowing is hard. Ballet is hard. Running the 800 meters is hard.

Soccer and lax and basketball have their share of contact, and yes, when it's unexpected or unprotected, the damage can be just as bad if not worse. The thing about football is 95% of the hits you brace for, and you get used to how it feels after a while, and it's no big thing.

The ones that get you are the ones you never see coming.

All that said, I'll continue to believe football is one of the toughest sports for obvious reasons (very few other sports feature full-speed contact, mixed with the need to react intelligently in split seconds), but also for a less obvious one.

EVERY SINGLE sport I covered, when trying to make their case for how tough their sport is, its athletes will say "We're just as tough as football players."

That's who athletes themselves, compare themselves to, when they see toughness. (and toughness is a word that can encompass a lot of things)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2010, 03:44:10 PM
I actually think Hockey is the toughest sport. All the speed and power of football ... but on skates. Youch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 03, 2010, 04:26:07 PM
Wrestling is right up there too.   I was always amazed at how the first day of wrestling practice proved how out of shape you were at the end of football season.  6 minutes doesn't sound like a big deal, but it was a killer for the first month until you got in good shape.  It probably sounds weird, but the worst was your hands & forearms.  I would get crazy cramps in my forearms for the first few weeks as those muscles were absolutely killed at wrestling practice.  2nd was your quads from all the squatting. 

The first day of football 2-a-days we had to run a timed mile (6 minutes for skill people / 6:30 for the fat guys like me) and I'd be struggling to get the mile in under the 6:30 that was required.  By the middle of wrestling season, I'd routinely run a 5:30 mile without pushing it.  Dropping 30+ pounds didn't hurt either.

Football was my first love, but I especially liked the ability to very personally hurt someone in wrestling.  Football and hockey have high speed collisions that look great from the stands, but the ability to very slowly break someone's ribs on the mat was rather attracting to me.  Does that make me a bad person?  Probably ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2010, 09:01:58 PM
Yes. Wrestling makes two minutes seem like an hour.

And anyone who wears a garbage bag while training must be doing something serious.

I remember once training with the distance runners instead of the sprinters a couple times when I was trying to improve in the 800.

Also remember for about 2 weeks my senior year at R-MC the post-practice gassers not actually having me gassed. Like I could run full go, finish, and not need to put my hands on my knees and wheeze.

And it was all downhill from there.

Tried to swim 4 laps -- cold -- about a year ago and almost died.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on November 04, 2010, 09:50:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2010, 09:01:58 PMI remember once training with the distance runners instead of the sprinters a couple times when I was trying to improve in the 800.

A lot of my fellow distance runners in high school and college laughed at how easy sprinters' workouts seemed compared to what we did. But I stopped laughing after the first time coach made me do a bleacher workout with the sprinters and hurdlers.

"Ouch" was an understatement. :) To each their own.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 06, 2010, 03:03:24 AM
I enjoyed your ATN.

JMO, but I think that the indexes such as Lazindex and Bornpowerindex and Kickoff have it right.

Bornpowerindex has Del Valley in the Top 10 and Springfield in the Top 25.

Lazindex has Del Valley in the Top 10 and Cortland State in the Top 20.  Montclair is #27.

The East Region has a huge clustering of teams in the 30-60 range.  This makes for close races and  good in-season talk, but very few teams (only 2-3) make the even the second tier.

The East is insulated and rarely plays outside its region.  The ASC, the WIAC and the NWC play each other.  To some degree, the other conferences have some crossover.  The SCAC, the MIAC, the OAC, the IIAC, the SCIAC and CCIW play outside their "area". 

I don't know when the East comes back to the position of 1990's prominence.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2010, 12:50:41 PM
Good insight as always, Ralph.

So I was going to make these into their own blog post, but we seem full over there lately with regional rankings, podcast, etc., and the timeliness isn't what it was. But for those still interested in the East Region issue, here's an e-mail I sent Frank Rossi with 9 questions that he doesn't mind sharing. It's definitely hard to squeeze this all into an ATN, and I don't always agree with Frank, but he does explain himself, and if you're interested in the issue, it's worth a read. Will do the same with something I sent Gordon Mann too:

Quote1. Why do you think an East Region team hasn't been to Salem since 1999?

Put simply, Mount Union.  In the years that the East has had some quality teams in the running, the NCAA has either placed the "East Bracket" winner against the "North Bracket" winner or placed Mount Union in the bracket outright.  Thus, even in the years Mount Union wasn't placed in the East, the team was still there to knock out the East's representative in the Semifinals.

2. Explain the gripe East Region fans have with building a bracket around No. 1-seeded Mount Union.

East Region fans have a relevant gripe concerning the Mount Union rotation into the East, since it is an indication that somehow, win-loss records are the only indication of teams' relative strengths.  It seems as though the Selection Committee doesn't notice that there are some relatively strong teams in the East that actually play each other and force each other to losses.  Thus, the actual depth of teams in the mix in the East is, I'd say, larger than those in the other regions.  If you remove Mount Union from the North and Wisconsin-Whitewater from the West, I don't see the same level of depth in the North and West, respectively.  The East has Fisher, Ithaca, Alfred, Union, RPI, Hobart, Cortland St., Rowan, Montclair St., Delaware Valley, Lycoming and others that all seem to be in the mix and that all intermix in out-of-conference games.  So, by placing Mount Union in the East because of the idea that no team went through undefeated in the East disrespects the teams in the East Region simply through that gesture.

3. If you have to go through Mount Union to win it all anyway, what difference does it make when you do it?


There are two reasons. First, the disrespect issue -- it penalizes the East teams that schedule strong out-of-conference opponents (like Delaware Valley when the team schedules Wesley).  Because of the severe risk DelVal took, the team now likely gets penalized with the potential of just two home playoff games if it makes it that far.  That's a complete sign of disrespect to a team that tried to give the country an exciting cross-regional game.

Second, it's a self-defeating prophecy for the East.  The way to create an East team that can actually regularly compete with the powers of the South, West and North is by allowing a team to get the practice and actual game experience deeper in the playoffs.  By placing Mount Union in the East, it shorts the potential East winner one full game since no East team will go to the Semifinals if Mount Union isn't eliminated by them or another team earlier in the process.  The extra week of practice and extra game against a quality team would provide experience and lessons that can't be matched in normal regular season play.  So, if a team tries to go out schedule a playoff-caliber team out of conference, they likely get penalized by being knocked down the bracket if they make it into the playoffs at all.  The Committee is not providing the East with a sufficient ability to breed a powerhouse by repeatedly placing Mount Union in the East and by penalizing teams taking risks earlier in the season.

4. Do you feel there's no incentive for teams to play tough schedules because they aren't being rewarded with at-large playoff bids if they lose?

Put simply, absolutely.  There are enough teams in Division III now that we'll have at least six teams go 9-1 by losing a conference game and otherwise running the table.  So, if there are six or more 9-1 teams looking at Pool C, we have been told on two occasions (once by the Committee Chairwoman and once, more recently, by a former member of the Committee) that 8-2 teams would not be considered unless direct links could be used for comparison's sake between specific 9-1 and 8-2 teams in the mix.  How often can that happen when the regions RARELY cross over to play each other?

To go 9-1 and be staring at Pool C means you have to beat all out-of-conference opponents.  So, let's say Delaware Valley loses a close game to a remaining MAC opponent this year.  The team's stunningly close game at then-#3 Wesley actually would do more harm than good in retrospect.  Yet, Delaware Valley would finish 8-2 under that scenario with a quality loss better than most in the tournament field.  The same could be said for St. John Fisher last year if the team had won one more game, since it ventured to Alliance, Ohio to play Mount Union to open the teams' seasons.  At 8-2, it looks like St. John Fisher was not going to be in the mix.  Why should those teams play powerhouse teams?  Even if the "you gotta play the best to be the best" philosophy holds, your loss to a powerhouse Wesley team will come at the price of placing you at a disadvantage during selection and/or seeding in the playoffs -- meaning you might not play as many quality games later by playing your quality opponent(s) earlier in the season.

5. What alternatives to the current selection process would you suggest?

I think three things need to be done.  First, I think that the regional nature of Division III football needs to be honored in the meantime of things remaining as they are.  Specifically, the top teams in each region should be honored by not displacing them or moving them around.  They've earned the right to play at the top of their region by playing the best football in their region all season.  The only teams that should be rotated between brackets should be #7 and #8 seeds (or teams that might be worse than #8 in that region but are still selected) in order to assist the Committee in placing teams when a specific region might have more than eight teams in the field (due to Pool B/C reasons) or NCAA travel rules dictate.  Generally, #7 and #8 seeds are teams that won their conferences with weaker win-loss records -- thus, the teams should have the expectation of a certain level of travel in the tournament.  If those teams can win their First Round games, then they'll be back in their region the next weekend.

Second, the NCAA needs to look at what the BCS attempts to do in FBS football and realize that, while it may not be perfect, there's something to be learned.  Specifically, the NCAA realizes that the sample size for using bare strength-of-schedule statistics is too small and can ignore conference and individual team strength.  To avoid such problems, the BCS uses both statistics (computer rankings) and human opinions (i.e., the human polls) to determine the eventual placement of the teams.  I don't agree with using a facsimile of this process for Division III.  However, I do believe that it is time to use national polls, like D3football.com's and the AFCA's Top 25 polls, to help weight wins and losses like the BCS does to assist the Committee in the ultimate selection of the Pool B and C teams.  Using bare win-loss and strength-of-schedule numbers isn't enough because the sample size in Division III is even smaller.  Human polls tend to understand that a loss against a quality team should not severely penalize that team.  However, the Committee appears to be ignoring those distinctions, perhaps due to a lack of information or an overreaction to strength-of-schedule numbers that might not tell the real story (for instance, Mount Union at #3 in the North this week in the Regional Rankings).  Whatever is the cause, national human polls (not regional subcommittee polls) can help tell a better story when cross-regional decisions need to be made and when teams decide whether or not taking on a tough opponent is a wise idea.

Third, I think the NCAA needs to create a fund to subsidize regular season travel for teams that opt to take on out-of-region opponents during out-of-conference games.  If the eventual hope is to take the regional nature out of Division III football and if the Division can create incentives to make teams want to face traditionally powerful teams, the NCAA needs to put its money where its mouth is in this respect.  Long trips in these economic times are becoming less and less appealing.  Yet, if the NCAA can find a way to even create 50 more cross-regional games per season, we could measure the relative strengths of teams in each region much more easily while providing some entertaining games for the fans -- and experiences like no other for the student-athletes taking the long trips.

6. What specifically are fans and teams missing out on by doing it the way it's done?

They're missing out on unique, appealing matchups between teams that otherwise might never play.  Imagine if DelVal decided to end its series against Wesley.  Look at how entertaining that game was this year and how much attention it drew.  Why shouldn't we see an occasional battle between Union and Mary Hardin-Baylor every so often?  Yet, DelVal and Union have no incentive to play such games -- and under the current Mount Union-at-the-top-of-the-East scenario, they never will get to play those games if they aren't scheduled in the regular season.

The fans are also missing out on some variety in the Stagg Bowl because if the current selection process continues to disincentivize taking risks during the season, no team will be able to gain the experience and strength to reasonably take on Mount Union and Wisconsin-Whitewater for the next decade.  Those teams get five extra games each year -- their seniors will have had 15 extra weeks of practice and 15 extra games compared to teams that might have missed the playoffs the prior three years for whatever reason.  Sure, the "Any Given Saturday" idea is always at play, but there comes a point when fans are going to want to truly believe coming into a game that the game should be competitive.  Year to year, their hopes of this are fading more and more because there is no clear incentive being created to get other teams in a position to consistently compete.

7. How important is variety of playoff opponent in keeping the game interesting? What about scheduling tough opponents? Whose job is it to ensure that happens?

I've been reporting from the sidelines of the Stagg Bowl for the past three years.  While I love the atmosphere and the personalities I've grown accustomed to seeing every year in Salem, part of me really would love to see another team and their fans get a taste of the excitement in Salem.  We can only explain it so much in words -- you have to be there for a few days to understand it.  And this trickles down to the other playoff games.  When I announced the St. John Fisher/Mount Union playoff game in Alliance a few years ago, the excitement surrounding the Fisher program was electric, regardless of the result of the game.  It's just an intangible that keeps the game fresh and the teams striving to improve and play better teams.

It's partially the NCAA's job to ensure scheduling of quality opponents -- by that, I mean that the NCAA and/or Selection Committee cannot sit there and create disincentives like I have begun to witness over the last couple seasons.  To avoid Mount Union being placed in the East, a quality 10-0 team must exist in the East -- so why should Rowan or Montclair schedule a qualty out-of-conference opponent and risk the East being ambushed again by the Purple Raiders?  If 8-2 teams are not going to be truly considered in Pool C, then the same question gets asked again.  There are too many DISincentives being created right now -- and the source of them is either the NCAA or the Selection Committee, or perhaps both since the Selection Committee is following some level of the NCAA's protocol in the selection process.  Thus, it's incumbent on the NCAA to begin to consider what is happening and how to create better incentives in football since strength-of-schedule numbers are not really aiding in the creation of better regular season matchups.

8. You've seen the top teams from different regions play. Is there really a major difference in talent level?

I don't think it's a pure talent level issue. I think it's a depth issue.  Sure, there were players that were on Mary Hardin-Baylor and Hardin-Simmons a couple years ago when I called their First Round game and on Wesley, Mount Union and Whitewater that have major size advantages compared to Liberty League teams, for instance.  However, that's not the real story.  These teams seem to just be deeper at all positions than the lower teams in each region.  We know the Mount Union story with the unlimited depth they truly have -- but we don't seem to fully recognize that for a program to continuously win, it takes depth to dodge injury problems and fatigue throughout a game.  How does a team become deep?  Usually, it takes two things:  1) a commitment by a school to work with coaches in getting more players through the admissions process at a specific school; and 2) success on the field in the first place.  The national spotlight only falls on a few teams regularly -- and those teams seem to field deep teams -- it's not just a coincidence.  Whether it's the chicken or the egg is another question -- but I think commitment from these schools comes first, followed by success, which leads to more and more depth.

9. Is there any reason to believe an East Region team couldn't win a Stagg Bowl in the future?

It depends on how far in the future you mean and what happens in the meantime.  If things continue happening in the direction they have been, then I don't see it happening in the next decade -- it would take a truly magical run right now.  If the Committee begins respecting the top end of the East, then I think we could -- it would take one major cross-regional victory in the Semifinals to have it happen instead of two when Mount Union is placed at the top of the East Bracket.  So, it's tough to answer this question since we don't know what the next Selection Committee will decide to do and whether or not the NCAA will step in to shake things up a bit.  It's not looking good right now, though.

- Frank



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 09, 2010, 03:01:41 PM
Great place to archive the post.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 09, 2010, 06:12:09 PM
Some interesting insights by Rossi. Not sure I agree with them all, but they are good food for thought.

I definitely prefer the committee building regions around the top 4 teams, if possible, rather than being overly tied to regions. There is a necessary regional emphasis in DIII, but it is a national playoff.

I'd also argue the West is, in general over the past decade plus, as deep or deeper than the East. And you could argue a similar gripe for the entire North region in regards to Mount as the East has. Bottom line, the East, North and all of DIII need to reach and equal Mount. It isn't just the East's dilemma, the West faces a similar one in UWW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2010, 09:47:56 PM
Those are some of my thoughts, that I prefer (and even advocated in ATN for) top seeds to go to the strongest teams possible. I was happy when the Dick Kaiser-led committee did this and it would be foolish for me to complain about it now.

The other thing I agree with is about the West. Frank actually challenged me very specifically to try to get someone to match the East's depth -- it was something like take away UWW, then name 11 teams that have a chance at the No. 1 seed each year. That's a very specific, sort of unfair request, but it can be done:

Linfield
Central
Wartburg
Coe
Redlands
Oxy
Cal Lutheran
St. John's
Bethel
NWC No. 2 (Willamette)
WIAC No. 2 (UW-EC or SP)

I'd put that 11 up against the East's best 11. I guess I should find the post where Frank mentions this and link to it from here, and to here from there. And respond. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on November 12, 2010, 02:59:37 AM

Three Stagg Bowl winners from the West besides UWW in the last 10-12 years.  Yeah, Frank, I think we can match your depth. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 03:39:35 AM
Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that most closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 03:39:35 AM
Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:02:57 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 03:39:35 AM
Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 12, 2010, 11:05:13 PM
I would say that the top  4 OAC teams and the top 4 CCIW teams in a given year can match up with all things east. And they very much kill each other every year. Consider that potentially, depending on Saturdays results,  4 teams from the CCIW will have wins against playoff teams this year (Carthage over Franklin, North Park over Benedictine, Wheaton over Albion, Elmhurst over Chicago). In addition, 6 of the 8 CCIW teams have been in the playoffs in the last 10 years. In the OAC 5 separate teams have made the field in the past  7 years. Thats at least 8 teams from just 2 conferences. If you add Wabash, Witt, Trine, and Franklin, the NOrth could find 11 teams that would match up favorably with any east lineup.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:07:48 PM
The SoS's of Franklin, Trine and Wittenberg don't generally support that statement.  That's like saying the NEFC has had X # of different participants -- just because they've had those participants doesn't tell me about the strength of those teams.  Apply the OOC schedule test to give those teams the strengths you claim.  That's what separates the men from the boys here.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 12, 2010, 11:14:38 PM
That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:15:44 PM
Quote from: USee on November 12, 2010, 11:14:38 PM
That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

Then explain why we can almost always count on multiple undefeateds in the North?  Answer:  No Crossover.  You can't tell me otherwise.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 12, 2010, 11:25:34 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 03:39:35 AM
Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Well, you could be referring to DelVal this year Ralph...they could easily be a top six team (were real close to beating Wesley and otherwise demolished the MAC this season).....and I think they are posed for a run this post season as well (given the youth of the Raiders this season I'd venture DVC would only be a 7-10 pt underdog in that regional final, you know, if/when it happens in three weeks...) 

That said, the academic standards of many eastern teams and the associated admissions requirements (not to mention cost) will basically not allow any eastern team to approach a top 5 level anytime soon.  This was a piece I patiently waited for in the ATN on the same subject but it never came up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:28:08 PM
Quote from: TGP on November 12, 2010, 11:25:34 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 03:39:35 AM
Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Well, you could be referring to DelVal Ralph...they could easily be a top six team.....and I think they are posed for a run this post season as well.  That said, the academic standards of many eastern teams and the associated admissions requirements (not to mention cost) will basically not allow any eastern team to approach a top 5 level anytime soon.  This was a piece I patiently waited for in the ATN on the same subject but it never came up.

We had a very interesting back and forth about that topic on "In the HuddLLe" last weekend -- I was surprised at his candor about it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 12, 2010, 11:45:58 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:15:44 PM
Quote from: USee on November 12, 2010, 11:14:38 PM
That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

Then explain why we can almost always count on multiple undefeateds in the North?  Answer:  No Crossover.  You can't tell me otherwise.
sure I can, and I already did but you don't want to consider it as you appear very entrenched. 2 conferences, 10 teams. Obviously at most 2 undefeateds and 11 different playoff teams in the last 10 yrs. The CCIW was 22-2 out of conference with games against multiple playoff teams. How is that not crossover? Use your SOS numbers on the top teams from the OAC and CCIW vs the top east teams. You appear to not be open to any othjer points on this and I wonder why?

I have read virtually every word of your disourse on the different boards and I remain unconvinced on several of your points. I agree that the sytem doesn't reward tough scheduling and something should be done (if possible) on that. Plenty of non-east examples of that issue. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:50:35 PM
Quote from: USee on November 12, 2010, 11:45:58 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:15:44 PM
Quote from: USee on November 12, 2010, 11:14:38 PM
That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

Then explain why we can almost always count on multiple undefeateds in the North?  Answer:  No Crossover.  You can't tell me otherwise.
sure I can, and I already did but you don't want to consider it as you appear very entrenched. 2 conferences, 10 teams. Obviously at most 2 undefeateds and 11 different playoff teams in the last 10 yrs. The CCIW was 22-2 out of conference with games against multiple playoff teams. How is that not crossover? Use your SOS numbers on the top teams from the OAC and CCIW vs the top east teams. You appear to not be open to any othjer points on this and I wonder why?

I have read virtually every word of your disourse on the different boards and I remain unconvinced on several of your points. I agree that the sytem doesn't reward tough scheduling and something should be done (if possible) on that. Plenty of non-east examples of that issue. 


Do me a favor and list me the playoff team-games you're discussing since I'm entrenched in prep work for this weekend.  I'll happilly concede that the CCIW is of that caliber if I can see some more hard proof on that point.  However, none of those teams have made it to the Stagg either.  In fact, even the Liberty League has had more Stagg appearances since 1989 than the CCIW.  I see a couple STRONG teams in there.  Not five perennial powers.  So help enlighten me here on the CCIW's supposed extreme strength.  Claiming five power teams is an interesting premise.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 13, 2010, 12:09:47 AM
I would love to see that too.  The CCIW's best teams have these exciting OOC wins to their resume:

NCC - beat Olivet (0-9), Cornell of Iowa (0-9) and UW-EC (4-5)

Wheaton - beat Albion (5-4), UW-Platt (5-4), and Olivet

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2010, 12:21:23 AM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:02:57 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.

This speaks to his statement: "A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 13, 2010, 12:28:16 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2010, 12:21:23 AM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:02:57 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.

This speaks to his statement: "A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!"

OK, let's place DelVal at the top of the Region then.  Let's test this theory.  Oh, wait, what?  The Committee won't because the #8 team took the #3 team to the wire at the #3 team's home?  Oh, damn, I hate when that happens.  BAAAAAAD Aggies for scheduling a power team before the playoffs.  You became un-dominant with such a move!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2010, 12:29:34 AM
Sigh. Frank is done for the day, already off the deep end. No talking to him.

Nothing to see here, folks, just the ranting is left.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 13, 2010, 12:36:11 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2010, 12:29:34 AM
Sigh. Frank is done for the day, already off the deep end. No talking to him.

Nothing to see here, folks, just the ranting is left.

LMAO... It just makes me salivate for out-of-region incentives, Guru.  If we're going to pontificate on these things, then we need to compare teams beyond just UMU vs. (Insert East Team Here).  I actually did do some math to check out USee's point about the CCIW since I'm actually more open-minded than you give me credit for.  The divergence between the average OWP and average OOWP for teams in the CCIW is a -0.035.  For the E8, it's -0.025.  That, as you know, means that the OOC opponents' OWPs show inferior schedule strength in the CCIW's OOC since OOWP takes into account a conference team's OWP multiple times and OOC's OWP just once in each case.  With all the noise in the E8 (with just 5 conference games per team), I thought the divergence would be higher.  I was shocked it wasn't.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 13, 2010, 08:45:10 AM
All of the "cross-over" analysis of the CCIW is fine, but leave the OAC out of it.  They play a 9 game league schedule so it's awfully hard to get a bunch of cross-over OOC game when you only get one chance.   The OOC game for the OAC this season:

Capital played Wesley (ACFC)
John Carroll played Case Western (UAA)
Mount Union played UW-Oshkosh (WAIC)
Muskingum played Defiance (HCAC)
Ohio Northern played UW-River Falls (WAIC)
Baldwin Wallace played Wooster (NCAC)
Heidelberg played Alma (MIAA)
Marietta played Thiel (PAC)
Wilmington played Mt St Joe (HCAC)
Otterbein played Husson (ECFC) =  yuck
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hornet on November 13, 2010, 09:31:08 AM
FWIW  I hope ncc@ st thomas get put in same region 1@2 is this agood possibility ? usee what do you think?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 13, 2010, 11:26:25 AM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:50:35 PM
Do me a favor and list me the playoff team-games you're discussing since I'm entrenched in prep work for this weekend.  I'll happilly concede that the CCIW is of that caliber if I can see some more hard proof on that point.  However, none of those teams have made it to the Stagg either.  In fact, even the Liberty League has had more Stagg appearances since 1989 than the CCIW.  I see a couple STRONG teams in there.  Not five perennial powers.  So help enlighten me here on the CCIW's supposed extreme strength.  Claiming five power teams is an interesting premise.

Frank,

Let's not lose sight of your original point and my rebuttal on this. Again, my point is that I don't believe the east's "problem" as you lay it out is unique. The north has the same situation depending on your perspective. I am not claiming the CCIW is better than east teams nor have I said anywhere that the CCIW has 5 perennial powers. All I said is that the CCIW/OAC top half could match up with your 11 east teams that you claim don't exist in any other region (keith already made the case for the west). I think that  assessment is false. Again, we aren't necessarily better but I think its fair to say its at least similar.

To answer your question, The CCIW and OAC playoff teams since 2000 are:

2000 Millikin, ONU, MT Union
2001 Augie, Mt Union
2002 Wheaton, JCU, Mt Union
2003 Wheaton, BW, Mt Union
2004 Wheaton, Carthage, Mt Union
2005 NCC, Augie, Capital, Mt Union
2006 Wheaton, NCC, Capital, Mt Union
2007 NCC, Capital, Mt Union
2008 Wheaton, NCC, OTT, Mt Union
2009 IWU, Mt Union

So 6 of the 8 CCIW teams and 5 of the 10 OAC have competed in the NCAA playoffs over that time period.  and The CCIW is 16-14 over that time period with 10 of their 14 losses to Mt Union/UWW and 3 other losses to OAC teams. The other loss was NCC v Franklin. The OAC ex-Mt Union is 9-7 during that time period with 5 of their 7 losses to Mt Union/UWW , 1 loss to Wheaton and 1 loss to Franlin. Mt Union is 34-4 over that time period.

There is clearly "cannibalism" within CCIW/OAC  teams during their season as well running into Mt/each other in the playoffs they have been able to succeed. NCC is poised to take their program to a UWW/Mt Union level from what I can see and Wheaton has won every playoff game against non Mt Union teams. Carthage, in their only playoff appearance in 2004, took Mt Union deep into the 4th quarter (tied 20-20 midway through 4th).

Again, my point is that I believe it is possible to compete and improve your teams under the current system that forces North/East teams to play Mt Union/UWW early and often. I don't believe East has any more obstacles than North teams and I think it is possible to get better in spite of these issues.  
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 13, 2010, 11:39:27 AM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:50:35 PM
Do me a favor and list me the playoff team-games you're discussing since I'm entrenched in prep work for this weekend.  I'll happilly concede that the CCIW is of that caliber if I can see some more hard proof on that point.  However, none of those teams have made it to the Stagg either.  In fact, even the Liberty League has had more Stagg appearances since 1989 than the CCIW. 

One other point I'll make on this, I don't think listing Stagg appearances is relevant to the point I was making in rebuttal to your original point but I do find it interesting your arbitrary cut off date of 1989 is a couple years after Augustana's run of 5 Stagg appearance's in a row.

In fact, the only reason an east team has been to the Stagg since Mt Union began their run is in the years they weren't paired with Mt until the Stagg. Every year the East faced Mt (or any other OAC team) prior to the Stagg they have suffered the same feat as all other North teams. It's not like the North gets a picnic lunch when Mt Union is shipped East either. Except for 1 year (when Wheaton won the North as a pool C) we have have UWW replacing Mt Union in the North.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 13, 2010, 12:03:03 PM
+1! hscoach.  Great point that you showed on the OAC OOC list.

When you are making schedules in advance, it is hard to know who will be strong that year.

Nevertheless, those are representative foes.

My thought about the non-conference schedule in D-3 is that the conference games are for the Pool A bid.

One uses the non-conference games to boost your teams chances for hosting games in the Playoffs.  If you have lost the Pool A, then your OOC games are your hope for a Pool C "do-over".

Had Del Valley beaten Wesley, we would be talking about DVC maybe being a #2 versus a #3/#4 seed, in turn pushing Wesley to the South and UMU westward, and possibly hosting a semi-final game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 13, 2010, 12:10:14 PM
Quote from: TGP on November 13, 2010, 12:09:47 AM
I would love to see that too.  The CCIW's best teams have these exciting OOC wins to their resume:

NCC - beat Olivet (0-9), Cornell of Iowa (0-9) and UW-EC (4-5)

Wheaton - beat Albion (5-4), UW-Platt (5-4), and Olivet



TGP,

Be careful not to change the point of the argument. We are talking about an historical perspective so taking part of this year's schedule to make an unrelated point is innacurate. I have actually made the point elsewhere that the current SOS criteria are misleading. As you rightly point out, the CCIW put up a 22-2 OOC record this year against some very weak competition. That has skewed their SOS to make it appear the conference is stronger than it may in fact be. Having said that, it doesn't change my point, which is the East doesn't have it any tougher than the North. And in spite of this years relatively weak OOC competition the CCIW has wins against the following playoff teams in OOC play over the last 5 years: Coe, ONU, Franklin, Bethel, Concordia Wisc, Aurora, Thomas More, Wabash, Trine, Mt St Joseph. The fact that CCIW teams played weak teams this year is not as relevant to the point as the fact they actually beat those teams.

The other point I'll make is that I agree with Frank in that this years CCIW OOC performance confirms the notion that the system does not reward teams for tough OOC scheduling. The CCIW has 7 of their 8 teams in the top 25 in SOS based on their 22-2 record in OOC play. Don't confuse weak scheduling with weak play. The CCIW's playoff performances and previous years OOC records indicate they are very competitive.

As I have said on the East Region board, all of this doesn't elevate the CCIW (or any other North teams)over the East but highlights the point that Frank's assessment is not limited to East region teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 13, 2010, 12:13:08 PM
Quote from: hornet on November 13, 2010, 09:31:08 AM
FWIW  I hope ncc@ st thomas get put in same region 1@2 is this agood possibility ? usee what do you think?

I doubt it's a "good possibility" but I think its a fairer alternative to Pat's bracket. If you can't decide who the #1 seed is between NCC/St Thomas, put them in the same bracket and let them fight it out. Using Pat's bracket and exchanging Wheaton and NCC would be interesting (including some ajusting for their different seeding). I would love to see NCC/St Thomas in bracket together in the West Region. UWW can come North again and that would even things out for UWW and Mt Union vis a vis strength of bracket.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2010, 01:16:48 PM
It's definitely do-able -- I ran through the specific matchup changes on the CCIW board last night.

That's the best bracket possibility in my mind at this moment; however, I'll wait now until the HCAC result, since that also has implications.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on November 13, 2010, 05:50:58 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 13, 2010, 12:28:16 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2010, 12:21:23 AM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2010, 11:02:57 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.

This speaks to his statement: "A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!"

OK, let's place DelVal at the top of the Region then.  Let's test this theory.  Oh, wait, what?  The Committee won't because the #8 team took the #3 team to the wire at the #3 team's home?  Oh, damn, I hate when that happens.  BAAAAAAD Aggies for scheduling a power team before the playoffs.  You became un-dominant with such a move!

FWIW - Del Valley loses today to Widener, 5th in the MAC.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DanPadavona on November 13, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
...Which I believe speaks to Frank's point on Eastern depth.  Del Valley, which is arguably almost as strong as undefeated #1 Southern Region Wesley, can't run the table in its own conference and loses to the #5 seed team...which has a winning record in a deep MAC.

I think we all understand that trying to argue our points by utilizing traditional SoS metrics is rather faulty. OWP and OOWP are next to meaningless because they must all be taken in context.  If Husson schedules an undefeated NEFC team, I'm not impressed.  But if they schedule a 1-2 loss OAC team, I take notice.  Yet the theoretical NEFC example would point to a stronger SoS if utilizing OWP.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe the size of the D3 football membership is nearly twice that of the BCS.  There is no way we can ever have a statistically meaningful sample of cross-over games with a 10 game schedule.  And as Frank rightly points out, the NCAA gives disincentive to testing yourself OOC because it expects you to be 9-1 or 10-0 to get in.  

There are no answers to the question of "How does the East stack up to the North/South."  We don't know.  Unless we want to compare 20 and 30 point losses to Mount Union in the playoffs, there is little or nothing to go on.  Nor do we know if a top CCIW team would finish 1st or 4th in the NJAC.  We can look at low bandwidth video streams of archived games and draw some weak conclusions but that's about it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 13, 2010, 11:50:55 PM
^  There are 236 D3 schools playing football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 14, 2010, 01:13:49 AM
Quote from: DanPadavona on November 13, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
...Which I believe speaks to Frank's point on Eastern depth.  Del Valley, which is arguably almost as strong as undefeated #1 Southern Region Wesley, can't run the table in its own conference and loses to the #5 seed team...which has a winning record in a deep MAC.

I think we all understand that trying to argue our points by utilizing traditional SoS metrics is rather faulty. OWP and OOWP are next to meaningless because they must all be taken in context.  If Husson schedules an undefeated NEFC team, I'm not impressed.  But if they schedule a 1-2 loss OAC team, I take notice.  Yet the theoretical NEFC example would point to a stronger SoS if utilizing OWP.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe the size of the D3 football membership is nearly twice that of the BCS.  There is no way we can ever have a statistically meaningful sample of cross-over games with a 10 game schedule.  And as Frank rightly points out, the NCAA gives disincentive to testing yourself OOC because it expects you to be 9-1 or 10-0 to get in.  

There are no answers to the question of "How does the East stack up to the North/South."  We don't know.  Unless we want to compare 20 and 30 point losses to Mount Union in the playoffs, there is little or nothing to go on.  Nor do we know if a top CCIW team would finish 1st or 4th in the NJAC.  We can look at low bandwidth video streams of archived games and draw some weak conclusions but that's about it.

Well said, Dan.  +k
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DanPadavona on November 14, 2010, 11:51:58 AM
Quote from: HScoach on November 13, 2010, 11:50:55 PM
^  There are 236 D3 schools playing football.

Thanks coach.  The national media frets that there aren't enough cross-overs in a 13 game regular season schedule to determine if Boise State is as good as Auburn.  D3 has 2x the membership and plays only 10 games with minimal travel expenses, and we still compare Montclair State to Pacific Lutheran as though we have some idea what we are talking about.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 14, 2010, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: DanPadavona on November 13, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
...Which I believe speaks to Frank's point on Eastern depth.  Del Valley, which is arguably almost as strong as undefeated #1 Southern Region Wesley, can't run the table in its own conference and loses to the #5 seed team...which has a winning record in a deep MAC.


I agree with this and I think the same argument could be said for the CCIW which is my point (the East is not unique). Wheaton beats #4,5,6 in their own conference, each by 7 pts or less (6 of 8 CCIW teams are 6-4 or better) and loses only to possible #1 seed NCC. The CCIW is also a very deep conference (#8, #6, and #5, #1 all have wins over playoff teams already). Some years a CCIW team can overcome and win the conference, sometimes they can't. It's not very often an undefeated CCIW team is in the playoffs (2x in the last 10 years)

We don't need to assess if the North is stronger than the East (or visa versa) to assess if they face the same difficulties and obstacles in reaching the field of 32, competing with the juggernauts and improving as a program. Frank thinks the East has unique challenges and I disagree.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: martin on November 14, 2010, 01:19:44 PM
Time to play what, if anything, did Pat get wrong.  Entries due before 3pm EST.

The D3FB cohort pick Pool C as follows:
1. Wheaton
2. Hampden Sydney
3. Rowan
4. ONU
5. Bethel
6. Wabash
Missing the cut:
7. Montclair State
8. Coe
9. Wabash

Pool B
1. Wesley
2. SUNY Maritime
3. Salisbury
Missing the cut:
4. Chicago

I think Wabash has been so inconsistent all year that thrashing of DePauw in a rivalry game may not be enough to get them in.  I think Montclair will make it 3 from the NJAC.  If Wabash does get in, it may be at the expense of Bethel.

Also, I am hoping he is wrong on Chicago but do not think so.  I did post some reasons (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=3830.msg1258070#msg1258070) why the committe should pick Chicago over Salisbury.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sflzman on November 14, 2010, 03:29:50 PM
HOW DO YOU GIVE DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPS, #1 IN THE POLL, 10-0, A 2 SEED?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: martin on November 14, 2010, 03:49:13 PM
Quote from: sflzman on November 14, 2010, 03:29:50 PM
HOW DO YOU GIVE DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPS, #1 IN THE POLL, 10-0, A 2 SEED?

The two facts you state are completely irrelevant to the selection and seeding process.  And what difference does it make?  UWW amd MTU can only meet in the final.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on November 14, 2010, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: martin on November 14, 2010, 03:49:13 PM
Quote from: sflzman on November 14, 2010, 03:29:50 PM
HOW DO YOU GIVE DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPS, #1 IN THE POLL, 10-0, A 2 SEED?

The two facts you state are completely irrelevant to the selection and seeding process.  And what difference does it make?  UWW amd MTU can only meet in the final.

We asked this question and several others to Dr. Solomen in our interview today that will appear on ITH around 8 PM ET.  Tune into www.inthehuddLLe.com if you want to hear the perspective of the Chair of the Committee that made that pick.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Wydown Blvd. on November 16, 2010, 02:43:56 PM
Didnt know where else to put this (washn't sure if d3ftball had the undefeated/winless board like bball). Maranatha Baptist Bible College got a solid shoutout in the Pat Forde's blog (The Dash) from ESPN, under the sub-heading "Five Happier Storylines":

Maranatha Baptist Bible College (19). Here's one you have to love, forwarded by senior quarterback Mark Green, who has missed the entire season with a torn ACL. The Division III school in Wisconsin had the nation's longest NCAA losing streak at 33 games until Saturday, when the Crusaders won for the first time since 2007, beating Rockford College (Ill.) 14-6. Leading 7-0 in the fourth quarter, Maranatha intercepted four Rockford passes in the red zone, returning one 90 yards for the clinching score. The postgame field storming was wholly appropriate. Congrats to the Crusaders, only four of whom had experienced the thrill of college victory before Saturday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: thewaterboy on November 16, 2010, 08:32:11 PM
Quote from: sflzman on November 14, 2010, 03:29:50 PM
HOW DO YOU GIVE DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPS, #1 IN THE POLL, 10-0, A 2 SEED?

Exactly what martin said. Completely irrelevant. Besides seeding doesnt matter unless you win. Theres no excuse for any team that says their play was effected by seeding. Its a result of how well you play. If you lose on the road. Your fault. You lose at home. Your fault cause you couldnt defend your house. Mount and Whitewater have to go on the road? Suck it up. Thats how it is this year. Too bad. Teams want a better seed, the only way to proved you deserved better or deserved what you got is to win. Plain and simple. Good luck to all 32 teams in the postseason.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2010, 08:56:02 PM
I'll explain in ATN.

Although I have stopped posting or reading new posts -- I'd never get anything done otherwise -- we worked through the issues pretty well on Sunday and Monday. A lot of people raised good points I hadn't thought of or considered, and I took note of those.

I realize not everyone agrees with me, but I think I've managed to summarize it in the most understandable way possible -- and hopefully I can make it concise too -- so that we can all understand what's what.

The thing not to lose sight of -- considering folks try put perhaps can't determine who's as good as who on paper, no matter the criteria or metrics -- THAT'S WHAT THE PLAYOFF GAMES ARE FOR!

Sometimes midweek, we start easing our way toward anticipating the actual games. I'll try not to rehash too much, yet there has to be the actual final definitive word for the history bo -- uh, web archives.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2010, 01:14:37 PM
You think it pays to be awesome one defense? One of these kids ... is doing his own thing, one of these kids...

Quote1   Cortland St.   10   10   6   0   0   0   4   0   78    7.80   9   1   0
2   Mount Union   10   11   10   0   0   0   1   0   79   7.90   10   0   0
3   North Central (IL)   10   10   7   0   0   0   5   1   84   8.40   10   0   0
4   Wis.-Whitewater   10   12   12   0   0   0   1   0   87   8.70   10   0   0
5   Montclair St.   10   13   6   1   0   0   3   1   97   9.70   9   1   0
6   Trine   10   14   11   0   0   0   4   0   107   10.70   10   0   0
7   Thomas More   10   15   10   0   0   0   2   1   108   10.80   10   0   0
8   Bethel (MN)   10   15   10   0   0   0   3   0   109   10.90   9   1   0
9   Salve Regina   10   14   11   0   0   0   5   0   110   11.00   6   4   0
9   St. Thomas (MN)   10   14   11   0   0   0   5   0   110   11.00   10   0   0
11   Wartburg   10   15   12   0   0   0   4   0   114   11.40   10   0   0
12   Wittenberg   10   16   15   0   0   0   2   0   117   11.70   10   0   0
13   Wesley   9   14   11   1   0   0   3   0   106   11.78   9   0   0
14   Delaware Valley   10   15   9   2   0   0   5   0   118   11.80   8   2   0
14   Franklin   10   13   12   0   0   0   8   2   118   11.80   9   1   0
16   Ohio Northern

So that's 15 playoff teams and Salve, run by the guy who coached Hopkins into holding Hampden-Sydney to 7 and Wesley 12 in last year's playoffs.

I think we know where our next budding coaching star lies.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 06:00:06 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2010, 08:56:02 PM
I'll explain in ATN.

Although I have stopped posting or reading new posts -- I'd never get anything done otherwise -- we worked through the issues pretty well on Sunday and Monday. A lot of people raised good points I hadn't thought of or considered, and I took note of those.

I realize not everyone agrees with me, but I think I've managed to summarize it in the most understandable way possible -- and hopefully I can make it concise too -- so that we can all understand what's what.

As promised.

Perhaps not concise. But understandable! And with bracket reactions & picks!

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010/surprises-disappointments-predictions
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2010, 06:35:41 PM
Great ATN.

I would like to crunch the OWP/OOWP numbers by "size of conference".

WIAC and ASC teams have trouble filling all non-conference games with eligible D-III opponents.

I think that explains the low OWP numbers for UMHB and UWW, and works to the disadvantage of the WIAC, ASC, SCIAC and NWC.  The left coast conferences are basically on their own as well.  Redlands did not pick up too much "OWP/OOWP-diversity" when it played ETBU.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 18, 2010, 06:58:04 PM
Keith,

I understand your logic on the SOS from ATN (great article btw). you are saying that teams should be incetnted to schedule the UWW's and tougher opponents based on this years committee picks. HOw then would you explain Wheaton and NCC? They have 2 of the stronger SOS's out there but played the likes of Olivet, Cornell, Albion, UWEC and Platteville. Not great competition.

I argue it was a bit of collusion by the CCIW coaches. The whole conference scheduled "weak" and thus went 22-2 in OOC play.  That means 6 of 8 schools were 6-4 or better overall and artificially inflated the SOS of the whole league (7 of 8 are in the top 16 of SOS). Are you really going to tell me UWW and Mt Union played easier schedules than NCC and Wheaton?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2010, 07:43:16 PM
Quote from: USee on November 18, 2010, 06:58:04 PM
Keith,

I understand your logic on the SOS from ATN (great article btw). you are saying that teams should be incetnted to schedule the UWW's and tougher opponents based on this years committee picks. HOw then would you explain Wheaton and NCC? They have 2 of the stronger SOS's out there but played the likes of Olivet, Cornell, Albion, UWEC and Platteville. Not great competition.

I argue it was a bit of collusion by the CCIW coaches. The whole conference scheduled "weak" and thus went 22-2 in OOC play.  That means 6 of 8 schools were 6-4 or better overall and artificially inflated the SOS of the whole league (7 of 8 are in the top 16 of SOS). Are you really going to tell me UWW and Mt Union played easier schedules than NCC and Wheaton?

Collusion seems a rather harsh term.

After NCC got burned last year for playing ONU (in a year when winning % seemed to trump everything, and SoS was meaningless), they understandably pulled back, and now SoS seems to trump everything (except, perhaps, winning %, since still no 2-loss teams regardless of SoS).  Could the selection committee perhaps come up with some consistency?  Coaches (ADs?) have no clue how to schedule in case they are on the bubble.  IF they would select a 2-loss (high SoS) team over a 1-loss (low SoS) team, perhaps we would get some strong non-con games. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 09:10:56 PM
Funny you guys should mention. I edited this out because I thought it was a little bit of a tangent

QuoteDELETE THIS PART?
Last season, Ohio Northern opened up with a win against North Central, lost to 8-2 Otterbein and 10-0 Mount Union, finished 8-2 and was left out of the playoffs. North Central, which had beaten the Polar Bears in the 2008 opener, also finished 8-2 and did not get a Pool C bid. Six of the seven one-loss teams went into the field first.

For both North Central and ONU, there was little incentive for playing that game. Though the Cardinals played Cornell, Olivet and UW-Eau Claire this season and oddly ended up with a No. 1 seed, teams can now schedule the way ONU and North Central did knowing that there's a reward for picking up a win over a team likely to be regionally ranked and likely to boost your strength of schedule figure.
DELETE THIS PART?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
Here's the thing ... SoS or no, it's still a chance to beat an RRO.

Mr Ypsi makes a good point.

And in the case of, say, Wittenberg, they know there's a better bounce from playing ONU than Olivet, in both OWP and likely in OOWP (OAC).

It's definitely odd that North Central scheduled abnormally weak but the CCIW had the super-high W-L. But that W-L wasn't from playing power schools necessarily. From ATN's ranking the conferences:

Quote4. COLLEGE CONFERENCE OF ILLINOIS AND WISCONSIN (CCIW)
Kickoff '10 ranking: 6th
Non-conference record: 22-2
Verdict: Six of the conference's eight teams are 3-0 right now, and the other two are 2-1, with CCIW play set to begin Saturday. The 22 victories have come against teams from eight conferences, including an 8-0 record vs. the MIAA and 5-1 vs. the NathCon. But given chances to shine against power conferences, the CCIW holds up; North Central beat UW-Eau Claire, 20-6, Wheaton beat UW-Platteville, 51-14, and Augustana lost to nationally ranked Central, 28-23.

However, North Central got the bounce from beating a WIAC school that also played Bethel and St. John's (might be one extra degree of separation there, but I think I got it right) ... In short, those SoS numbers aren't off the mark much. I didn't really see where DePauw beat anyone great, but they compare to North Central in that a lot of the normal teams on their schedule had records close to .500. And if you think about it, in the spirit of rewarding the teams who have to survive a challenge every week, not just schedule a good game then play three creampuffs, it's on the mark.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2010, 10:02:11 PM
Yeah, I don't know the solution.  If it is two losses and you're toast, where is the incentive to play a tough non-con game when a single conference loss added to a non-con loss means you are out of the playoffs?  On the other hand, I wouldn't want to go to TOO much 'common sense' - that route leads to politics and 'reputation'.  IMO, Hardin-Simmons and Wabash would absolutely crush half the teams in the playoffs, but did they earn it?

Relying TOO heavily on SoS is a crock, since a conference like OAC will mathematically always be near .500, and my conference (CCIW) successfully 'gamed the system' by going 22-2 on a heavy diet of cupcakes.  (Good grief, even NPU, who hasn't won a conference game this millennium, went 2-1, including beating pool A Benedictine! :o)

SoS is fatally flawed, a "two-losses and you're toast" is fatally flawed, relying too much on 'reputation' is fatally flawed - anyone got a solution?! :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 18, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
^  Sure, let me pick the Pool B and C teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2010, 10:28:19 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 18, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
^  Sure, let me pick the Pool B and C teams.

Nice try, but I was lobbying for ME to be the selection committee! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2010, 10:30:15 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2010, 10:28:19 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 18, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
^  Sure, let me pick the Pool B and C teams.

Nice try, but I was lobbying for ME to be the selection committee! ;D
I vote for Mr Ypsi to be on the selection committee.

That means that the civilian delegate from the CCIW/North Region must recuse himself when those teams are on the table!     :D   ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 10:31:46 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 18, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
^  Sure, let me pick the Pool B and C teams.

No, me.

I know I had this thought even before the Pat & Gordon annual picks, but I don't know if I wrote it anywhere. You'd get a fair bracket if D3.com did it!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2010, 10:38:49 PM
I applaud the separating of the NJAC, ACFC, OAC and CCIW teams into different brackets.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 10:57:02 PM
We could select the brackets by front-page poll

Or hold our own championship invitational. Would anybody show?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 18, 2010, 11:00:43 PM
Great ATN column guys!

My $0.02 on the cap on losses:

1- agree with Pat, get off St. Lawrence's back. They did exactly what they needed to do to make the field. Just could have done it a little prettier.

2- that said, I think there's a middle ground between equal access and the highest quality field we can get. My solution: teams winning percentage must exceed .667. Pool A conference champs failing to match this criteria lose their auto-bid that year and an extra pool C replaces it. Unless the conference had two playoff wins the previous season, either two teams going 1-1 or one 2 win team.

This does several things. It encourages teams to schedule the 10th game, as 7-3 would still get a team into the field. The consideration of the previous seasons playoffs ensures that a strong conference in a year with great parity, say the WIAC, could still make the field if they had performed well on the national stage recently.

You still preserve reasonable equal access, while ensuring that underperforming teams from weaker conferences don't dilute the field. A 7-3 or better team from a weak conference would still make the field. But now you'd have room for a Rowan, PLU or Redlands.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 18, 2010, 11:11:33 PM
In Division II, they have no automatic bids, but they do have what's called "earned access." Six teams go from each of four regions. If a conference has a team in the top eight of the region, that team gets a bid. That could bounce an at-large team from higher up in the regional rankings.

I apologize if I've misunderstood the concept -- this is a D-II thing and I haven't exactly studied it.

But perhaps Division III could utilize something like this, especially as the Division grows and access to this championship gets constricted. We're already above the official one-spot-for-every-6.5 teams level. I would lessen the ranking requirement because Division III is so much larger and there are so many conferences. But perhaps a conference would have to have a team in the top 15 or so in order to earn its access.

Or, if you prefer, a conference would have to be represented by a team with two *conference* losses or fewer. I wouldn't be in favor of utilizing overall losses in any equation so that teams aren't afraid to schedule games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 18, 2010, 11:22:58 PM
You can utilize wins?  D1 has a requirement that you have to have at least 6 wins to be bowl eligible.

Kmack- you did say that on one of the dd blogs I think.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2010, 11:23:44 PM
No!  You win your conference, you earn the bid.

St Lawrence turned their season around.

CNU got its act together.

Every team knows what it needs to do to make the playoffs.  The Fresno State's and the George Mason's make the playoffs fun.

Just do it.

I do think that "once-ranked, always-ranked" needs to be employed, just because we are not ranking teams until the last 25-30% of the season.  That adds a few more schools into the equation for evaluating the best teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 19, 2010, 12:50:03 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2010, 10:30:15 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2010, 10:28:19 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 18, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
^  Sure, let me pick the Pool B and C teams.

Nice try, but I was lobbying for ME to be the selection committee! ;D
I vote for Mr Ypsi to be on the selection committee.

That means that the civilian delegate from the CCIW/North Region must recuse himself when those teams are on the table!     :D   ;D

You misunderstood.  I want to BE the selection committee! :o  I don't recuse myself for nobody! ;D

I salute the committee in general - though #3 DePauw and #5 Witt is an abomination.

A tough (and thankless) job, but one where I would wish they could find a way to steer teams towards scheduling tougher in-region opponents,  Fans everywhere would thank you.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on November 19, 2010, 06:48:12 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
However, North Central got the bounce from beating a WIAC school that also played Bethel and St. John's (might be one extra degree of separation there, but I think I got it right) ...

The Bethel UWEC played was NAIA Bethel of Tennessee, not Bethel of the MIAC!!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 19, 2010, 07:16:21 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 19, 2010, 12:50:03 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2010, 10:30:15 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2010, 10:28:19 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 18, 2010, 10:25:06 PM
^  Sure, let me pick the Pool B and C teams.

Nice try, but I was lobbying for ME to be the selection committee! ;D
I vote for Mr Ypsi to be on the selection committee.

That means that the civilian delegate from the CCIW/North Region must recuse himself when those teams are on the table!     :D   ;D

You misunderstood.  I want to BE the selection committee! :o  I don't recuse myself for nobody! ;D

I salute the committee in general - though #3 DePauw and #5 Witt is an abomination.

A tough (and thankless) job, but one where I would wish they could find a way to steer teams towards scheduling tougher in-region opponents,  Fans everywhere would thank you.

Exactly!  But out of the kindness of my heart (and the fact I'm fat, old and bald and don't really care much anymore about anything other that a hot cup of coffee and my redhead secretary walking by my office), I offer that THE committee consist of me, Ypsi and K-Mack.

So it is written, so it shall be...............
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 19, 2010, 08:37:48 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 19, 2010, 12:50:03 AM
A tough (and thankless) job, but one where I would wish they could find a way to steer teams towards scheduling tougher in-region opponents,  Fans everywhere would thank you.

How about just steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents, period, and forget the 'in-region' distinction ?   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 19, 2010, 02:20:15 PM
I think the significant weight placed on SOS is misleading and flawed at best.  It should be used as a second or third criteria.  The flaws have been stated previously, below is an example: 

Top (in the playoffs or close to making it) non conference opponents played by all teams of the CCIW in 2010:
Franklin
Central

Top (in the playoffs or close to making it) non conference opponents played by all teams of the WIAC in 2010:
Willamette
Wheaton
Central
Mt. Union
Mary Hardin Baylor
St. Johns
North Central
Ohio Northern
St. Thomas
Trine
-you can add a NAIA 7-4 Cambellsville, KY team that UWW played. 

I don't know, all of a sudden the CCIW's SOS doesn't look so darn impressive anymore. 

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 19, 2010, 11:21:27 PM
emma17- keep in mind that just because the CCIW played some bad teams in their OOC schedule, doesn't necessarily mean the CCIW teams are bad. Most of those games were blowouts so there is every possibility that NCC, Wheaton, IWU, Elmhurst, Carthage, Augie, etc are pretty good teams that match up with many top 25 teams pretty well. Good thing is they get to show if they are any good starting tomorrow against some excellent competition. That's why we play the games........
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 20, 2010, 12:33:56 AM
I understand Usee and in no way do I mean disrespect to the CCIW.  I've been to see NCC play this year and was very impressed. 

However, as you know, whether the game was a blowout or not isn't the issue, because the score isn't measured, only the win or the loss.  The fact is, the SOS of the CCIW was greately enhanced by playing an overall weaker schedule.  And that in turn, impacted the seeding of UWW.  I am a fan of NCC (followed coach Thorne when at Wheaton Warrenville HS), but they should have to beat the best to be the #1 seed, just as UWW had to do in 2005 and 2008. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 20, 2010, 01:06:32 AM
No, the committees inconsistent application of the criteria is what affected the seeding, not NCCs scheduling or SOS. SOS has been calculated this way before. And this isn't the first yr CCIW teams have played weak teams in OOC play. It's not NCC's fault UWW is #2. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 20, 2010, 01:50:55 AM
I agree the committee should have used greater subjectivity in its selections.  At the same time, however, the WIAC scheduled far more difficult teams than the CCIW, and that's the fact. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 20, 2010, 02:23:55 AM
emma, no poster on the CCIW has ever defended their schedule.  Mostly we lapped up cupcakes like crazy.  And it worked!  The committee this year went for the flawed SoS, like white on rice!  After NCC (the WORST SoS team in the conference) got screwed last year, can you blame the coaches?  If the NCAA wants decent OOC games, give some incentive for them.

I WANT to see tough non-con games - but with the current selection committee picking procedures, they are an endangered species.  If two losses and you are toast, you CANNOT risk a non-con loss (since if you have no conferences losses, you are not pool C anyway).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 20, 2010, 09:14:29 AM
Ypsi,
I'm right there with you on that.  I don't buy Keith's (or NCAA) theory that teams will be motivated to play a tough non con schedule just to improve their SOS.  Had Wheaton scheduled a top team and lost (just as example), they don't get in the playoffs with 2 losses- where is the incentive.

Anyway, like 413 I need to let this issue go.  As we pack up for tailgating today, the reality strikes me that not only is this probably our second to last time doing this, it's also likely the second to last time the seniors on this team will play at The Perk.  These are the kids that did go on the road in 2008 and beat the #1's to earn the right to be given the benefit of the doubt in a SOS comparison.  Not because homefield is such a competitive advantage, but as I've posted before, the fans, community, university and seniors lose out. 

Game day.  I hope all teams play well today and all players come out healthy.     
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 20, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 19, 2010, 08:37:48 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 19, 2010, 12:50:03 AM
A tough (and thankless) job, but one where I would wish they could find a way to steer teams towards scheduling tougher in-region opponents,  Fans everywhere would thank you.

How about just steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents, period, and forget the 'in-region' distinction ?   

I've been trumpeting the end to "in-region" preferential treatment for several years.  Glad to see the thought it gaining support.

Not sure how to go about "steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents."  But if anything, currently you could say that the incentive is to play such teams if they are not "in-region" (at least a loss theoretically wouldn't hurt as much).

As far as the W-L floor for the play-off, conference winners should go (just like DI hoops).  I do think a teams should be over .500 to get a Pool B bid though (an unearned B bid would go to Pool C).  But that probaly won't be an issue as Pool B shrinks to 2 (next year I believe) and probably ultimately 1.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 20, 2010, 06:50:04 PM
Emma17- I hear you on the priceless opportunities that are lost due to the seeding situation. But again, SOS is not the culprit. This SOS calcualation has been in place prior to this year. The culprit is the inconsistency with which  the criteria is applied. This year's seeding mishap is not about who wheaton or NCC scheduled for the non conf games. It's about the committees application of the same criteria that has been in place for a few years now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2010, 10:23:35 PM
Quote from: BoBo on November 19, 2010, 06:48:12 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 18, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
However, North Central got the bounce from beating a WIAC school that also played Bethel and St. John's (might be one extra degree of separation there, but I think I got it right) ...

The Bethel UWEC played was NAIA Bethel of Tennessee, not Bethel of the MIAC!!  ;)

You know I know that. Since I wrote a whole dern column about UW-EC's early-season scheduling:

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010/september-to-remember

Apology for the frain bart.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2010, 11:10:18 PM
Quote from: emma17 on November 20, 2010, 09:14:29 AM
Ypsi,
I'm right there with you on that.  I don't buy Keith's (or NCAA) theory that teams will be motivated to play a tough non con schedule just to improve their SOS.  Had Wheaton scheduled a top team and lost (just as example), they don't get in the playoffs with 2 losses- where is the incentive.

You don't have to buy my point that teams will be motivated to play a better schedule, but you do buy Mr. Ypsi's point that there is little to no incentive to take games, like ones against UWW, as it stands? Which is part of the reason UWW had to play Dakota State and Campbellsville or whoever it was.

It's essentially the same point we're all making. I don't think I really said teams "will be motivated." I said the committee, by doing what it did, provides the incentive for better SoS. If they were to consistently apply it that way, and extend it to two-loss teams, it would reward teams for taking better games.

I definitely made the point about UWW getting hurt by SoS when rewarding it would be the exact thing that would give incentive for teams to schedule them. Why should Trine play UWW instead of Bluffton if it could go 10-0 and get a high seed? Well DePauw (who's not the greatest example of tough scheduling on paper, but had the high .549 number) went 9-1 and got a better seed than Trine and a home game. So in theory, going 9-1 with a better strength of schedule can be seen as 10-0 with weak SoS.

The line definitely blurs where a conference can play lots of teams it can beat and benefit that way via SoS, but that's another discussion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2010, 11:23:17 PM
Quote from: emma17 on November 20, 2010, 09:14:29 AMNot because homefield is such a competitive advantage, but as I've posted before, the fans, community, university and seniors lose out.  

I agree with you there and wrote as much. However, from a neutral point of view, another team's fans, community and university and seniors "win out" by getting a home game, so assuming they appreciate it as much as you would, it's not necessarily bad for Division III football on the whole.

Elsewhere, I definitely enjoyed the potential solutions on Page 136 to having four- and five-loss AQ teams, as well as I enjoyed Ralph's passionate "NO!"

I like the .667 idea, especially with the 10-game caveat.

That might reach into the bag of all-games-created equal when SoS determines they're not, but you draw the line somewhere. It's certainly interesting.

I think the most humorous takeaway for me is anyone clamoring for more subjectivity from a committee they clearly don't trust. The whole way we got to the numbers-heavy system and the AQ is from people wanting less subjectivity and more of a trail so they're able to trace how they got where and why.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 23, 2010, 11:48:41 PM
Keith,
I should have been more clear in what Ypsi said that I was agreeing with.  He said "The committee this year went for the flawed SoS, like white on rice!"  The flawed SoS is the point I agree with- as I agree with you in their failure to apply criteria consistently from year to year.

At the end of the day, it could very well end up that NCC and/or St. Thomas advances to the Stagg.  However, I still believe that despite their 10-0 records and SoS, the reward of home field throughout should first have been earned by dethroning the sitting champion.  Then, if the same situation exists next year at selection time, they are the clear #1 seeds, no complaints from me.  Of course, that would require looking at past performance, I know, I know....it's all about this year only.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: nccfac on November 24, 2010, 12:05:53 AM
Quote from: emma17 on November 23, 2010, 11:48:41 PM
Keith,
I should have been more clear in what Ypsi said that I was agreeing with.  He said "The committee this year went for the flawed SoS, like white on rice!"  The flawed SoS is the point I agree with- as I agree with you in their failure to apply criteria consistently from year to year.

At the end of the day, it could very well end up that NCC and/or St. Thomas advances to the Stagg.  However, I still believe that despite their 10-0 records and SoS, the reward of home field throughout should first have been earned by dethroning the sitting champion.  Then, if the same situation exists next year at selection time, they are the clear #1 seeds, no complaints from me.  Of course, that would require looking at past performance, I know, I know....it's all about this year only.


The question is what will the committee decide next year is the most important factor. Not being consistent is the problem.  But even if you know that Sos  is the criteria you only have so much control and it can vary greatly from year to year. I still like the idea of using d3 and/or the AFCA polls to help determine the seeding. A number one seed in both polls shouldn't end up being a number 2 seed.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 24, 2010, 07:32:29 AM
In my opinion there's a point that is being left out of this discussion.  There's a big difference between how the general public views strength of schedule and how the NCAA defines it.  The NCAA looks simply at the number of wins by your opponents and their opponents.  The fan (and reporters) look at the competency of the wins.   

Playing your non-conference games against the ultimate league champions of the ECFC, NATHC and Centennial will get you a lot higher SoS in the NCAA's eyes than playing three middle of the pack WIAC, CCIW and OAC teams even though you played 3 lesser teams on the field.

Outside of trying to take the next step forward and wanting to see how you really stand, I don't see the enticement for anyone to schedule Mount or Whitewater.   When it makes sense to schedule them is when you are clearly the best team in your crappy conference and without a serious test/learning experience, you're going to remain nothing more than an decent team nationally that enters the playoffs 10-0 to only get immediately drilled.  Much like W&J earlier this decade.  A lot of 10-0 regular seasons immediately followed by early round playoff losses because they were simply a good team that made their record on the backs of a weak conference, not being a great team themselves.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 24, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
Well said Coach.
I posted somewhere a list of the playoff teams (and teams considered playoff caliber) that both the CCIW and WIAC played this year.  There simply was no comparison as to what conference played tougher non conference opponents.

To NCC/CCIW fans, my point isn't to bash your conference, team or say UWW is somehow better this year.  The point is, NCC was given the #1 seed for the exact reason HSCoach posted- not because they actually played a tougher schedule. 

I also admit it irks me when I read others that post something to the effect that-based on our disapproval of the way SOS was used this year, teams like NCC and St. Thomas will never get a #1 seed as long as UWW is also 10-0.  WRONG.  Sure they will.  All they have to do is advance further in the playoffs than UWW does.  All they have to do is beat UWW, just like UWW had to go on the road and beat Linfield, Willamette and MHB ON THE ROAD.  When the CCIW or when ST. Thomas advances further in the playoffs, which is a true test of SoS, they will have truly earned a #1 seed when records are equal.  I couldn't imagine any player on NCC or St. Thomas disagreeing with this position. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 24, 2010, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 24, 2010, 07:32:29 AM
In my opinion there's a point that is being left out of this discussion.  There's a big difference between how the general public views strength of schedule and how the NCAA defines it.  The NCAA looks simply at the number of wins by your opponents and their opponents.  The fan (and reporters) look at the competency of the wins.    

Playing your non-conference games against the ultimate league champions of the ECFC, NATHC and Centennial will get you a lot higher SoS in the NCAA's eyes than playing three middle of the pack WIAC, CCIW and OAC teams even though you played 3 lesser teams on the field.

Outside of trying to take the next step forward and wanting to see how you really stand, I don't see the enticement for anyone to schedule Mount or Whitewater.   When it makes sense to schedule them is when you are clearly the best team in your crappy conference and without a serious test/learning experience, you're going to remain nothing more than an decent team nationally that enters the playoffs 10-0 to only get immediately drilled.  Much like W&J earlier this decade.  A lot of 10-0 regular seasons immediately followed by early round playoff losses because they were simply a good team that made their record on the backs of a weak conference, not being a great team themselves.
We are stuck with the rules as D3 has voted them.  The OWP/OOWP is used in all sports.

Veterans who read and post on multiple sports boards know the arguments and the history.  In men's basketball, the NESCAC seems to have the charmed life with their conference scheduling (mostly single-round robin) and plenty of "high-value OWP" opponents in close proximity.

Here is the benefit for the non-in-region games for a UWW or  MUC.  MUC versus a New York or Pennsylvania school more than 200 miles away, or UWW versus some ambitious Indiana school.

If there ever was a year for the rest of D3 to break the hegemony of Mount Union and UWW, this is it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mugsy on November 24, 2010, 03:24:38 PM
Quote from: emma17 on November 24, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
I also admit it irks me when I read others that post something to the effect that-based on our disapproval of the way SOS was used this year, teams like NCC and St. Thomas will never get a #1 seed as long as UWW is also 10-0.  WRONG.  Sure they will.  All they have to do is advance further in the playoffs than UWW does.  All they have to do is beat UWW, just like UWW had to go on the road and beat Linfield, Willamette and MHB ON THE ROAD.  When the CCIW or when ST. Thomas advances further in the playoffs, which is a true test of SoS, they will have truly earned a #1 seed when records are equal.  I couldn't imagine any player on NCC or St. Thomas disagreeing with this position.  

Until now I have stayed clear of the whole seeding debate, CCIW vs. WIAC, and SoS flaw debates.  Given that we are into the 2nd round of the playoffs, I'd much rather focus on the games at hand.  In my view UWW and UMU are clearly the top programs until someone else can knock them off.

However I must disagree with your assertion that St. Thomas or NCC will not or should not get a #1 seed until they go further into the playoffs or beat UWW or UMU.  Seeding year to year should have nothing to do with past performance.  Seeding should be based on the merit of this years team and this years performance.  Now that is not to say the committee won't be influcenced by past seasons.


I find it interesting that someone from the Augustana national championship run in the 80's mentioned that despite their complete dominance during that timeframe, they still had to go on the road for 2 of their 4 championships seasons.  An indication that "past playoff performance" does not factor into the next season?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Augie6 on November 24, 2010, 03:53:24 PM
Quote from: Mugsy on November 24, 2010, 03:24:38 PM

I find it interesting that someone from the Augustana national championship run in the 80's mentioned that despite their complete dominance during that timeframe, they still had to go on the road for 2 of their 4 championships seasons.  An indication that "past playoff performance" does not factor into the next season?

In 1984, we were the #1 ranked team and defending National Champion and had to play our first playoff game at Dayton.  In 1986, we were the 3 time defending national champion, but, because of a tie to start the season, we were not the #1 ranked team.  However, we still had to travel in the first round to Hope (7-1-1 record and lower ranked) and then had to travel to Mt. Union in the second round.  If Central had beaten Concordia in the quarterfinals, we, more than likely, would have travelled to Central for the Semi's.  The NCAA does what the NCAA wants to do, regardless of if it makes sense to most fans.  I understand where UWW fans are a little upset by the seedings, but, frankly, get over it.  If UWW is as good as they seem to be, where they play won't matter. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 24, 2010, 03:57:49 PM
Agree Mugsy. There is no, and should never be, anybentitlement in d3. Th e d1 ball tourney doesn't work that way, heck even the flawed BCS doesn't consider past success. Nor does the NFL, baseball, the NBA, on and on. It's a ridiculous assertion that anyone deserves a higher seed, home game etc bases on anything but the current seasons merits. That's sports in the USA.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Titan Q on November 24, 2010, 04:36:36 PM
Note that the Handbook states that rotation of sites is a consideration.  See #2...

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/champ_handbooks/football/2010/10_3_football.pdf
(page 7)

Site Selection
The Championships Committee has prioritized the following site-selection criteria for all championships:

1. Quality and availability of the facility and other necessary accommodations;
2. Geographical location (which may include such factors as rotation of sites, weather, accessibility and transportation costs);
3. Seeding; and
4. Attendance history and revenue potential, which shall be considered necessary to
assure fiscal responsibility.



This is the same wording that's in the basketball handbook and I think there have a been a few times when this has factored in.  So instead of letting, for example, Wooster host a sectional every year, every now and then they'll send them on the road...even though the numbers suggest they should host.  

I could be wrong, but it seems like that has come into play in basketball.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 24, 2010, 06:59:39 PM
Usee- what's up with the "ridiculous assertion" bit?  We disagree (on most things)- we can do so respectfully. 

Just because past performance (and let's keep in mind, we are only going back to Nov/Dec of 2009 to determine whether a team was capable of playing at a #1 seed caliber) isn't a part of the current criteria doesn't mean there isn't some merit to adding it in some fashion.  Three 10-0 teams in a close region of the country.  The committee has to pick 2.  In my opinion, rejecting anything that has to do with recent (2009) performance- AND basing a decision on a SoS that nearly every poster has identifed as flawed, is choosing to live in a vacuum.  There is Context out there that helps inform decisions- for those that want to be informed. 

I'll ask the question, how many current players on the NCC or St. Thomas team do you feel would actually support UWW being a #2 seed?  How many do you feel would support the idea that no thought whatsoever should be put into considering a teams recent success against other highly rated teams when deciding if they are worthy of a #1 seed?  I suggest the number would be very, very, very lo

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Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 24, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
Emma17- I don't think you will find anyone that agrees that UWW should be anything other than a #1 seed. Repeat, NO ONE. I certainly think they should be a #1 seed. But I don't think and won't ever think it should be based AT ALL on what happened last year. Do you think the Lakers believe they should be a #1 seed because they won last year? Do you think the Yankees feel ripped off they didn't get home field for the baseball playoffs? Does Duke think they deserve the #1 seed in the NCAA tourney this year because they won it last year? Show me a sport where last year gives anyone any entitlement to something this year. Boise State? Alabama?

The issue on UWW as a #1 seed could have been made based on what the committee had available to them this year. They chose to use strict SOS numbers inconsistently. that's not NCC or St Thomas' fault, nor is it UWW's fault. There is no entitlement here nor should there be any. UWW has to go on the road just like many returning champions do in many other sports. I think UWW fans have made a mountain out of a mole hill on this.

And I do think the assertion is ridiculous (but not you). That doesn't mean I don't respect you. It's not personal, its a simple debate. Sorry if I implied anything other than that.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on November 24, 2010, 08:37:38 PM
USee, I'll try to make this my last post on the subject. No, I don't think the Lakers would expect to be #1 Because of last year- just as I don't think UWW should be #1 Because of last year. I do think it's reasonable to use recent performance as One component of the overall criteria, especially when logic suggests the SoS may not be reliable.
As i said before, my issue isn't the impact of home field on the game itself, it's about doing what's right.  Entitlement would only apply if UWW, or any other team in their position, didn't earn it.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 24, 2010, 10:22:44 PM
Recent performance= 2010. If that's the case then I completely agree.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 07:40:55 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 20, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 19, 2010, 08:37:48 AM

How about just steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents, period, and forget the 'in-region' distinction ?   

I've been trumpeting the end to "in-region" preferential treatment for several years.  Glad to see the thought it gaining support.

Not sure how to go about "steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents."  But if anything, currently you could say that the incentive is to play such teams if they are not "in-region" (at least a loss theoretically wouldn't hurt as much).


Ron, it sounds to me as if you're asking Division III consciously to take a first step onto a very slippery slope.

Count me out.  This is Division III, not Division 1.  I applaud the NCAA for encouraging regional competition, and in that respect, NESCAC football appears to have a healthier attitude towards Division III competition than possibly every other DIII conference.  Find me a conference with better rivalries than Williams/Wesleyan/Amherst and Colby/Bates/Bowdoin.  You can't do it--it doesn't exist.

Division III, where athletics takes a back seat to academics.  National playoffs are not the raison d'être of Division III athletics.

I realize that my opinion is a minority opinion, and I can understand if you wish to call me a Cassandra (but if you do, please offer evidence to support your opposing argument).  However, if we encourage DIII schools to add significant additional travel expenses to their athletic budgets by scheduling games out of region in order to play tougher opponents, how different is that from steering schools toward offering athletic scholarships?  Hint: a lot less different than steering teams toward regional competition.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 07:40:55 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 20, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 19, 2010, 08:37:48 AM

How about just steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents, period, and forget the 'in-region' distinction ?   

I've been trumpeting the end to "in-region" preferential treatment for several years.  Glad to see the thought it gaining support.

Not sure how to go about "steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents."  But if anything, currently you could say that the incentive is to play such teams if they are not "in-region" (at least a loss theoretically wouldn't hurt as much).


Ron, it sounds to me as if you're asking Division III consciously to take a first step onto a very slippery slope.

Count me out.  This is Division III, not Division 1.  I applaud the NCAA for encouraging regional competition, and in that respect, NESCAC football appears to have a healthier attitude towards Division III competition than possibly every other DIII conference.  Find me a conference with better rivalries than Williams/Wesleyan/Amherst and Colby/Bates/Bowdoin.  You can't do it--it doesn't exist.

Division III, where athletics takes a back seat to academics.  National playoffs are not the raison d'être of Division III athletics.

I realize that my opinion is a minority opinion, and I can understand if you wish to call me a Cassandra (but if you do, please offer evidence to support your opposing argument).  However, if we encourage DIII schools to add significant additional travel expenses to their athletic budgets by scheduling games out of region in order to play tougher opponents, how different is that from steering schools toward offering athletic scholarships?  Hint: a lot less different than steering teams toward regional competition.

"In-region" is a nice idea; but, currently, also a crock.  Just for example, in basketball next weekend Wheaton will play Calvin (as they do every season) - they are 202 miles apart, but NOT 'in-region'.  A couple of days ago Carthage played Whitman in Honolulu; it WAS an in-region game! :o  And schools in the 'islands' (Texas and the left coast) routinely have to travel many hundreds of miles for ANY games.  With the economics of d3, I doubt any school is going to start national tours, but omitting games against d3 opponents is just silly.

And I'd refrain from using the NESCAC as a 'positive' example.  Just because they have effectively chosen to leave d3 for football (no playoffs is one thing, no non-con games at all is another :P), they certainly delight in touting their all-sports trophies!  If they are so 'pristine' in football, does that make them 'whores' in all other sports?! :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2010, 08:05:43 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 07:40:55 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 20, 2010, 09:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 19, 2010, 08:37:48 AM

How about just steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents, period, and forget the 'in-region' distinction ?   

I've been trumpeting the end to "in-region" preferential treatment for several years.  Glad to see the thought it gaining support.

Not sure how to go about "steering teams towards scheduling tougher opponents."  But if anything, currently you could say that the incentive is to play such teams if they are not "in-region" (at least a loss theoretically wouldn't hurt as much).


Ron, it sounds to me as if you're asking Division III consciously to take a first step onto a very slippery slope.

Count me out.  This is Division III, not Division 1.  I applaud the NCAA for encouraging regional competition, and in that respect, NESCAC football appears to have a healthier attitude towards Division III competition than possibly every other DIII conference.  Find me a conference with better rivalries than Williams/Wesleyan/Amherst and Colby/Bates/Bowdoin.  You can't do it--it doesn't exist.

Division III, where athletics takes a back seat to academics.  National playoffs are not the raison d'être of Division III athletics.

I realize that my opinion is a minority opinion, and I can understand if you wish to call me a Cassandra (but if you do, please offer evidence to support your opposing argument).  However, if we encourage DIII schools to add significant additional travel expenses to their athletic budgets by scheduling games out of region in order to play tougher opponents, how different is that from steering schools toward offering athletic scholarships?  Hint: a lot less different than steering teams toward regional competition.

"In-region" is a nice idea; but, currently, also a crock.  Just for example, in basketball next weekend Wheaton will play Calvin (as they do every season) - they are 202 miles apart, but NOT 'in-region'.  A couple of days ago Carthage played Whitman in Honolulu; it WAS an in-region game! :o  And schools in the 'islands' (Texas and the left coast) routinely have to travel many hundreds of miles for ANY games.  With the economics of d3, I doubt any school is going to start national tours, but omitting games against d3 opponents is just silly.

And I'd refrain from using the NESCAC as a 'positive' example.  Just because they have effectively chosen to leave d3 for football (no playoffs is one thing, no non-con games at all is another :P), they certainly delight in touting their all-sports trophies!  If they are so 'pristine' in football, does that make them 'whores' in all other sports?! :D
+1!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 08:47:33 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 07:40:55 PM

. . . I applaud the NCAA for encouraging regional competition, and in that respect, NESCAC football appears to have a healthier attitude towards Division III competition than possibly every other DIII conference.  Find me a conference with better rivalries than Williams/Wesleyan/Amherst and Colby/Bates/Bowdoin.  You can't do it--it doesn't exist.

Division III, where athletics takes a back seat to academics.  National playoffs are not the raison d'être of Division III athletics.

I realize that my opinion is a minority opinion, and I can understand if you wish to call me a Cassandra (but if you do, please offer evidence to support your opposing argument).  However, if we encourage DIII schools to add significant additional travel expenses to their athletic budgets by scheduling games out of region in order to play tougher opponents, how different is that from steering schools toward offering athletic scholarships?  Hint: a lot less different than steering teams toward regional competition.

. . . And I'd refrain from using the NESCAC as a 'positive' example.  Just because they have effectively chosen to leave d3 for football (no playoffs is one thing, no non-con games at all is another :P), they certainly delight in touting their all-sports trophies!  If they are so 'pristine' in football, does that make them 'whores' in all other sports?! :D

I mentioned the NESCAC only with respect to Division III football.  Your discussion of NESCAC's "virtue" and/or "promiscuity" in other sports is irrelevant to my statement.

Nonetheless, you are of course free to refrain from using whatever you wish to refrain from using.
 
From where I sit, NESCAC hasn't left Division III for football--on the contrary, their policy with respect to football appears more consistent with the principles of Division III athletics than even the NCAA's Division III national playoff.

I should have clarified my applause for the NCAA's encouragement of regional competition.  I'm not defending the NCAA's geographical line-drawing that they call "regions."  I'm especially not defending the two different definitions that the NCAA uses for "in-region."  I should have used the word "local."  I'm applauding the practice of encouraging local competition.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 08:47:33 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 07:40:55 PM

. . . I applaud the NCAA for encouraging regional competition, and in that respect, NESCAC football appears to have a healthier attitude towards Division III competition than possibly every other DIII conference.  Find me a conference with better rivalries than Williams/Wesleyan/Amherst and Colby/Bates/Bowdoin.  You can't do it--it doesn't exist.

Division III, where athletics takes a back seat to academics.  National playoffs are not the raison d'être of Division III athletics.

I realize that my opinion is a minority opinion, and I can understand if you wish to call me a Cassandra (but if you do, please offer evidence to support your opposing argument).  However, if we encourage DIII schools to add significant additional travel expenses to their athletic budgets by scheduling games out of region in order to play tougher opponents, how different is that from steering schools toward offering athletic scholarships?  Hint: a lot less different than steering teams toward regional competition.

. . . And I'd refrain from using the NESCAC as a 'positive' example.  Just because they have effectively chosen to leave d3 for football (no playoffs is one thing, no non-con games at all is another :P), they certainly delight in touting their all-sports trophies!  If they are so 'pristine' in football, does that make them 'whores' in all other sports?! :D

I mentioned the NESCAC only with respect to Division III football.  Your discussion of NESCAC's "virtue" and/or "promiscuity" in other sports is irrelevant to my statement.

Nonetheless, you are of course free to refrain from using whatever you wish to refrain from using.
 
From where I sit, NESCAC hasn't left Division III for football--on the contrary, their policy with respect to football appears more consistent with the principles of Division III athletics than even the NCAA's Division III national playoff.

I should have clarified my applause for the NCAA's encouragement of regional competition.  I'm not defending the NCAA's geographical line-drawing that they call "regions."  I'm especially not defending the two different definitions that the NCAA uses for "in-region."  I should have used the word "local."  I'm applauding the practice of encouraging local competition.

Since the NESCAC plays NO other d3 teams, however local they may be, in my view they are not a part of d3 for football.

Local is to be preferred (as I'm sure both the 'academics' and the 'bean counters' at every d3 school agree), but why such arbitrary (and contradictory) rules?  Can't schools be trusted to do what is in their interests (including economic interests)?  Calling some games 'in-region' (even if between schools 2,000 miles apart, in a location an additional 2,000 miles away), yet a rivalry game 202 miles away (which isn't even 202 miles, but that is what the NCAA software says) 'non-region' is insane.

Using an 'in-region' rule requires that rules be set.  But such rules will inevitably be arbitrary, capricious, and sometimes downright stupid.  All games between d3 opponents should count for SoS and Pool B and C; to do otherwise invites ridicule.  IF some rich school(s) start abusing the 'open' system, the topic can be revisited.

But I doubt any school will desire to both waste resources and be subjected to vituperation. :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 28, 2010, 01:24:26 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 08:47:33 PM

. . . From where I sit, NESCAC hasn't left Division III for football--on the contrary, their policy with respect to football appears more consistent with the principles of Division III athletics than even the NCAA's Division III national playoff.

I should have clarified my applause for the NCAA's encouragement of regional competition.  I'm not defending the NCAA's geographical line-drawing that they call "regions."  I'm especially not defending the two different definitions that the NCAA uses for "in-region."  I should have used the word "local."  I'm applauding the practice of encouraging local competition.

Since the NESCAC plays NO other d3 teams, however local they may be, in my view they are not a part of d3 for football.

Local is to be preferred (as I'm sure both the 'academics' and the 'bean counters' at every d3 school agree), but why such arbitrary (and contradictory) rules?  Can't schools be trusted to do what is in their interests (including economic interests)?  Calling some games 'in-region' (even if between schools 2,000 miles apart, in a location an additional 2,000 miles away), yet a rivalry game 202 miles away (which isn't even 202 miles, but that is what the NCAA software says) 'non-region' is insane.

Using an 'in-region' rule requires that rules be set.  But such rules will inevitably be arbitrary, capricious, and sometimes downright stupid.  All games between d3 opponents should count for SoS and Pool B and C; to do otherwise invites ridicule.  IF some rich school(s) start abusing the 'open' system, the topic can be revisited.

But I doubt any school will desire to both waste resources and be subjected to vituperation. :P

So only teams that play out of conference games are Division III in your view?  I think that's a rather restrictive criterion.

Knock yourself out complaining about the NCAA's multiple definitions of "in-region," you'll get no argument from me.

But you're unlikely to persuade me if you're suggesting that Division III football ought to be restricted to those who are willing to play outside their conference, and by extension, outside any geographical limit that might be called "local."

Football is not in any school's economic interest at any level, least of all Division III.

I think that the NCAA promotes and endorses some pretty hypocritical and ruinous policies.  I happen to believe that their policy emphasizing local competition is one of their best policies.  Their definitions of "in-region" aren't entirely consistent with their policy of promoting local competition.  I further believe that it is bald hypocrisy for the NCAA to contradict/controvert its "local competition" policy by promoting and financing a national tournament.  Some believe the opposite, i.e. that its emphasis on local competition is hypocritical viz. its national tournament.  But I suspect those who believe differently than I do understand that a policy promoting regular season travel on the scale of the national tournament is inconsistent with an academics-first focus.  (Is "academics-first" one of the arbitrary rules that so rankles you?)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 28, 2010, 01:57:39 AM
redswarm, I think you are missing my point on non-con games.  NESCAC could choose to skip the national tourney and still be d3.  But if they never play ANYONE outside of NESCAC, are they not simply NESCAC football?  How are they d3 football?

You now seem to be opposed to national tourneys in general.  That is your prerogative.

BUT ... why then is there even a d3?  Couldn't conferences set their own rules?

And why is Williams so damned proud of the Directors' Cup?!  It is, after all, based on national tournament results.  (And a horribly flawed calculation, but that is a separate rant. ;))  If NESCAC was so 'pristine', shouldn't they opt out of ALL national tournaments?  (Try running that one by their basketball (among other sports) teams?! :o)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 28, 2010, 02:10:26 AM
BTW, redswarm, I'm a retired professor.  "Academics first" is unlikely to rankle me! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 28, 2010, 02:42:18 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 28, 2010, 01:57:39 AM
redswarm, I think you are missing my point on non-con games.  NESCAC could choose to skip the national tourney and still be d3.  But if they never play ANYONE outside of NESCAC, are they not simply NESCAC football?  How are they d3 football?

You now seem to be opposed to national tourneys in general.  That is your prerogative.

BUT ... why then is there even a d3?  Couldn't conferences set their own rules?

And why is Williams so damned proud of the Directors' Cup?!  It is, after all, . . . blah blah blah having nothing to do with Division III football blah blah blah . . .

Doc, I think I understand your point.  It's the evidence and argument you're using to make your point that I don't understand.

According to your argument point, NESCAC can choose to skip the national tournament and still be Division III football.  Well, NESCAC does choose to skip the national tournament, but you don't regard them as Division III football--why not?  As near as I can tell, it's only because they don't play out of conference.

So your answer to my earlier question must be yes--only teams that play out of conference games can be considered Division III football.  If I'm missing something, let me know.

Keeping football as a non-revenue activity, and not offering football scholarships are also a part of Division III football aren't they, Doc?

I know you're a retired professor, but (at least where NESCAC football is concerned) you don't seem to be an enthusiastic advocate of the proper role of athletics as secondary to academics.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2010, 02:09:51 PM
Quote from: emma17 on November 23, 2010, 11:48:41 PM
Keith,
I should have been more clear in what Ypsi said that I was agreeing with.  He said "The committee this year went for the flawed SoS, like white on rice!"  The flawed SoS is the point I agree with- as I agree with you in their failure to apply criteria consistently from year to year.

At the end of the day, it could very well end up that NCC and/or St. Thomas advances to the Stagg.  However, I still believe that despite their 10-0 records and SoS, the reward of home field throughout should first have been earned by dethroning the sitting champion.  Then, if the same situation exists next year at selection time, they are the clear #1 seeds, no complaints from me.  Of course, that would require looking at past performance, I know, I know....it's all about this year only.

That's fair, dethroning the sitting champion, as it usually applies in D3. But in years like 2004, when defending champ St. John's missed the field, it would not be useful.

My point on that has been while I think UWW is the No. 1 team (based on what I've observed this year) and would have been a common sense No. 1 seed, I don't mind asking UMU or UWW to go on the road in the semis to win the title because it's the same thing UMHB, Wesley, St. John's, Linfield et. al. are asked to do every year.

I'm sure if UWW was at home this week and NC was on the road, nobody'd be making an issue of it. But ah well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 28, 2010, 01:57:39 AM
redswarm, I think you are missing my point on non-con games.  NESCAC could choose to skip the national tourney and still be d3.  But if they never play ANYONE outside of NESCAC, are they not simply NESCAC football?  How are they d3 football?

You now seem to be opposed to national tourneys in general.  That is your prerogative.

BUT ... why then is there even a d3?  Couldn't conferences set their own rules?

And why is Williams so damned proud of the Directors' Cup?!  It is, after all, based on national tournament results.  (And a horribly flawed calculation, but that is a separate rant. ;))  If NESCAC was so 'pristine', shouldn't they opt out of ALL national tournaments?  (Try running that one by their basketball (among other sports) teams?! :o)
One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules. 

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 28, 2010, 10:26:50 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 28, 2010, 01:57:39 AM
redswarm, I think you are missing my point on non-con games.  NESCAC could choose to skip the national tourney and still be d3.  But if they never play ANYONE outside of NESCAC, are they not simply NESCAC football?  How are they d3 football?
Well said Mr. Y, and redswarm81, I think the argument is pretty clear...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Freebird on November 28, 2010, 11:00:20 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 28, 2010, 01:24:26 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 27, 2010, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 27, 2010, 08:47:33 PM

. . . From where I sit, NESCAC hasn't left Division III for football--on the contrary, their policy with respect to football appears more consistent with the principles of Division III athletics than even the NCAA's Division III national playoff.

I should have clarified my applause for the NCAA's encouragement of regional competition.  I'm not defending the NCAA's geographical line-drawing that they call "regions."  I'm especially not defending the two different definitions that the NCAA uses for "in-region."  I should have used the word "local."  I'm applauding the practice of encouraging local competition.

Since the NESCAC plays NO other d3 teams, however local they may be, in my view they are not a part of d3 for football.

Local is to be preferred (as I'm sure both the 'academics' and the 'bean counters' at every d3 school agree), but why such arbitrary (and contradictory) rules?  Can't schools be trusted to do what is in their interests (including economic interests)?  Calling some games 'in-region' (even if between schools 2,000 miles apart, in a location an additional 2,000 miles away), yet a rivalry game 202 miles away (which isn't even 202 miles, but that is what the NCAA software says) 'non-region' is insane.

Using an 'in-region' rule requires that rules be set.  But such rules will inevitably be arbitrary, capricious, and sometimes downright stupid.  All games between d3 opponents should count for SoS and Pool B and C; to do otherwise invites ridicule.  IF some rich school(s) start abusing the 'open' system, the topic can be revisited.

But I doubt any school will desire to both waste resources and be subjected to vituperation. :P

So only teams that play out of conference games are Division III in your view?  I think that's a rather restrictive criterion.

Knock yourself out complaining about the NCAA's multiple definitions of "in-region," you'll get no argument from me.

But you're unlikely to persuade me if you're suggesting that Division III football ought to be restricted to those who are willing to play outside their conference, and by extension, outside any geographical limit that might be called "local."

Football is not in any school's economic interest at any level, least of all Division III.

I think that the NCAA promotes and endorses some pretty hypocritical and ruinous policies.  I happen to believe that their policy emphasizing local competition is one of their best policies.  Their definitions of "in-region" aren't entirely consistent with their policy of promoting local competition.  I further believe that it is bald hypocrisy for the NCAA to contradict/controvert its "local competition" policy by promoting and financing a national tournament.  Some believe the opposite, i.e. that its emphasis on local competition is hypocritical viz. its national tournament.  But I suspect those who believe differently than I do understand that a policy promoting regular season travel on the scale of the national tournament is inconsistent with an academics-first focus.  (Is "academics-first" one of the arbitrary rules that so rankles you?)

For many D3 and NAIA schools athletics and specifically football raise their totally enrollment which increases revenue. For many schools having a football teams means around 100 additional students. My dad is the provost at an NAIA school that added football about 10 years ago. Previous to that it was a respected soccer/basketball/baseball centered school and many students objected to the idea of football knowing it would draw attention away from those other sports. In the end it came down to the value of having adding more kids to the campus and the extra attention nationally that football can provide.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on November 29, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 28, 2010, 01:57:39 AM
redswarm, I think you are missing my point on non-con games.  NESCAC could choose to skip the national tourney and still be d3.  But if they never play ANYONE outside of NESCAC, are they not simply NESCAC football?  How are they d3 football?

You now seem to be opposed to national tourneys in general.  That is your prerogative.

BUT ... why then is there even a d3?  Couldn't conferences set their own rules?

And why is Williams so damned proud of the Directors' Cup?!  It is, after all, based on national tournament results.  (And a horribly flawed calculation, but that is a separate rant. ;))  If NESCAC was so 'pristine', shouldn't they opt out of ALL national tournaments?  (Try running that one by their basketball (among other sports) teams?! :o)
One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules. 

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?

How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2010, 10:41:33 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 29, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
...
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?
Thanks for the response.   :)

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: retagent on November 29, 2010, 03:02:14 PM
I have just read the ongoing disagreement. Without commenting on the merits, it appears that some are trying to be more erudite and pedantic than is necessary. Someone taught me that using $100 words rather than $.02 words, when the $.02 word would suffice, is a waste of money. I know you're smart, let's not hurt yourself by twisting your vocabulary in circles in order to prove to yourself that you possess intelligence. My hair hurts, so I'm going to take an analgesic. (Heaven forbid that I would say tylenol, when I'm actually speaking about a generic ibuprofen tablet. It probably wouldn't have the desired effect - RIGHT!)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: usee on November 29, 2010, 03:50:08 PM
Ralph, Great post! +k
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2010, 05:32:08 PM
Quote from: retagent on November 29, 2010, 03:02:14 PM
I have just read the ongoing disagreement. Without commenting on the merits, it appears that some are trying to be more erudite and pedantic than is necessary. Someone taught me that using $100 words rather than $.02 words, when the $.02 word would suffice, is a waste of money. I know you're smart, let's not hurt yourself by twisting your vocabulary in circles in order to prove to yourself that you possess intelligence. My hair hurts, so I'm going to take an analgesic. (Heaven forbid that I would say tylenol, when I'm actually speaking about a generic ibuprofen tablet. It probably wouldn't have the desired effect - RIGHT!)
:D :D :D

Tylenol TM  (Brand name, created by some marketing genius)  Acetaminophen (long $100 word for the actual compound, also known as "generic", most properly named, N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)acetamide )

Advil TM  (Brand name)  Ibuprofen ("generic" from the old nomenclature iso-butyl-propanoic-phenolic acid and now known as (RS)-2-(4-(2-methylpropyl)phenyl)propanoic acid)

;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 08:00:57 PM
In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 08:00:57 PM
In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle? :P

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football. ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 10:29:30 PM
I do agree that this has gotten silly. Why should anyone care about it significantly?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 30, 2010, 10:23:18 AM
Quote from: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 10:29:30 PM
I do agree that this has gotten silly. Why should anyone care about it significantly?

It's the typical "I'm right and I'm going to beat you over the head with my opinion until you give up" that is what passes for modern discussion.     ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on November 30, 2010, 02:01:51 PM
NESCAC as a group should be happy on balance about what it is doing or it wouldn't be doing it, and others shouldn't give a good God damn what NESCAC does.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 30, 2010, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 30, 2010, 02:01:51 PM
NESCAC as a group should be happy on balance about what it is doing or it wouldn't be doing it, and others shouldn't give a good God damn what NESCAC does.

The nice thing about the NESCAC'S disconnected treatment of their football championship is they have freed a Pool A bid for our use as another Pool C bid.   ;)

The playoff is sealed at 32 bids.  We will not see the playoffs expanded to a 6th week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on November 30, 2010, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 30, 2010, 05:56:59 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 30, 2010, 02:01:51 PM
NESCAC as a group should be happy on balance about what it is doing or it wouldn't be doing it, and others shouldn't give a good God damn what NESCAC does.

The nice thing about the NESCAC'S disconnected treatment of their football championship is they have freed a Pool A bid for our use as another Pool C bid.   ;)

The playoff is sealed at 32 bids.  We will not see the playoffs expanded to a 6th week.


Best reason yet for why the NESCAC should not participate in the D3 Football Playoffs!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2010, 10:41:33 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 29, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
...
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?
Thanks for the response.   :)

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I disagree about the "disconnection" from Division III.  There are more things to Division III membership besides national tournaments.

Sorry if my word choice, grammar, and sentence structure cause anyone injury.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2010, 10:41:33 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 29, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
...
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?
Thanks for the response.   :)

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I disagree about the "disconnection" from Division III.  There are more things to Division III membership besides national tournaments.

Sorry if my word choice, grammar, and sentence structure cause anyone injury.
I concede on the point of intellectual consistency by the NESCAC on the subject of football.

They hate football.  They do not want to raise the profile of the sport any higher than it currently is.  American football is antithetical to the image that they want to show to their friends at the dinner parties and soirees.  Having Amherst-Williams featured on ESPN GameDay should purely be viewed as a public relations event by the folks in Institutional Advancement.

As for the use of the term "disconnected", 228 full members have declared for the Division III football championship.  They have placed their goals on competing for the NCAA Division III National Championship in accordance with the guidelines in the official Handbook.  Dual member Nebraska Wesleyan has "disconnected", if you will, and declared for the NAIA through the Great Plains Athletic Conference.

:)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 04:33:51 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2010, 10:41:33 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 29, 2010, 08:44:38 AM
...
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?
Thanks for the response.   :)

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I disagree about the "disconnection" from Division III.  There are more things to Division III membership besides national tournaments.

Sorry if my word choice, grammar, and sentence structure cause anyone injury.
I concede on the point of intellectual consistency by the NESCAC on the subject of football.

They hate football.  They do not want to raise the profile of the sport any higher than it currently is.  American football is antithetical to the image that they want to show to their friends at the dinner parties and soirees.  Having Amherst-Williams featured on ESPN GameDay should purely be viewed as a public relations event by the folks in Institutional Advancement.

As for the use of the term "disconnected", 228 full members have declared for the Division III football championship.  They have placed their goals on competing for the NCAA Division III National Championship in accordance with the guidelines in the official Handbook.  Dual member Nebraska Wesleyan has "disconnected", if you will, and declared for the NAIA through the Great Plains Athletic Conference.

:)

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.

I might have misunderstood your "disconnected" comment.  I thought you were describing NESCAC (they) as being "disconnected" from Division III.  Are you saying that the Division III national tournament is "disconnected" from Division III?  If so, as a philosophical construct, I would agree.

We see things differently, you and I.  The karma-taggers think that's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 08:00:57 PM
In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle? :P

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football. ;)

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 01, 2010, 05:58:41 PM
redswarm,

a) Since Mount Union has been hosting the region east teams play in lately, I dare say MANY NESCAC teams play in tournaments that last longer than the NESCAC football champion would last. :P  (For the last five years it has been a 5-week tourney ONLY for UMU and UWW; for half the field it is a 1-week tourney.)

b) The reason (IMO) that NESCAC football is just that (not really d3 football) has little to do with skipping the tourney.  By playing NO games against any other d3 teams, they are a closed loop with no connection to d3 football.

c) But I thank them for giving d3 a 6th pool C bid!  Without that, almost certainly Wheaton would have been sitting at home two years ago instead of winning the North region! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 01, 2010, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 08:00:57 PM
In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle? :P

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football. ;)

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

Again, then why don't they apply that same philosophy to the other NCAA sports they sponsor?  I just find that discussion confusing and certainly not-consistent.

Especially when football games are only played on Saturdays, and have the least amount of conflict with academics (as compared to baseball, soccer or basketball that regularly have competitions during the week and play MANY more games that would conflict with academic endeavors).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on December 01, 2010, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 08:00:57 PM


I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

I suppose they don't really care about the men's soccer team's academics since Bowdoin's team is finishing up a 5 week tournament at the final 4 this weekend? Personally, I find NESCAC stance on football about as odd as I do the Ivy League's stance on the FCS playoffs. I also find it odd that the two leagues the rest of the country considers having the ultimate in elitist attitude take the same stance, in only this one sport, for some reason. That being said, I really don't care. If they don't want to play in the D3 tourney then their kids don't have to play. I'm perfectly happy to go on ignoring them if they so wish to be ignored for the playoffs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 07:40:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 01, 2010, 05:58:41 PM
redswarm,

a) Since Mount Union has been hosting the region east teams play in lately, I dare say MANY NESCAC teams play in tournaments that last longer than the NESCAC football champion would last. :P  (For the last five years it has been a 5-week tourney ONLY for UMU and UWW; for half the field it is a 1-week tourney.)

b) The reason (IMO) that NESCAC football is just that (not really d3 football) has little to do with skipping the tourney.  By playing NO games against any other d3 teams, they are a closed loop with no connection to d3 football.

c) But I thank them for giving d3 a 6th pool C bid!  Without that, almost certainly Wheaton would have been sitting at home two years ago instead of winning the North region! ;D
Wow!  Those are awfully nice words about Wheaton from an IWU grad!   :) 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 04:33:51 PM


I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.

I might have misunderstood your "disconnected" comment.  I thought you were describing NESCAC (they) as being "disconnected" from Division III.  Are you saying that the Division III national tournament is "disconnected" from Division III?  If so, as a philosophical construct, I would agree.

We see things differently, you and I.  The karma-taggers think that's a bad thing.

No smiting from me....   ;)

The sport that highlights the inconsistency best is baseball.  After playing 14 games in Arizona from March 22 to April 1st (on spring break I hope), Williams played 23 games in 35 days, from April 5th thru May 9th, the day of their last game of the NESCAC tournament.

Trinity CT played 10 games in Florida from Mar 14th thru Mar 21st, and then played another 21 games from March 24th thru the end of the regular season, May 3rd.  Most of those were on the weekend, so that cut down on missed class time.

However Trinity CT played in the ECSU Regional was May 13-17 and then the "D3 World Series" was in Wisconsin May 22-23.  Trinity Commencement was May 23rd, 2010.  They were playing in the NCAA Baseball postseason during dead week and finals.

Thanks for the discussion.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 01, 2010, 08:41:52 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 07:40:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 01, 2010, 05:58:41 PM
redswarm,

a) Since Mount Union has been hosting the region east teams play in lately, I dare say MANY NESCAC teams play in tournaments that last longer than the NESCAC football champion would last. :P  (For the last five years it has been a 5-week tourney ONLY for UMU and UWW; for half the field it is a 1-week tourney.)

b) The reason (IMO) that NESCAC football is just that (not really d3 football) has little to do with skipping the tourney.  By playing NO games against any other d3 teams, they are a closed loop with no connection to d3 football.

c) But I thank them for giving d3 a 6th pool C bid!  Without that, almost certainly Wheaton would have been sitting at home two years ago instead of winning the North region! ;D
Wow!  Those are awfully nice words about Wheaton from an IWU grad!   :) 

MOST of us posters rally around conference rivals against the rest of the world! ;)

Some can't quite bring themselves to do it (Johnnies, especially ::)), but I think my stance is more the norm.  I love beating the Wheaties, but if they are going against 'aliens', I'm for 'em 100%. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 01, 2010, 08:41:52 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 07:40:35 PM
...
Wow!  Those are awfully nice words about Wheaton from an IWU grad!   :) 

MOST of us posters rally around conference rivals against the rest of the world! ;)

Some can't quite bring themselves to do it (Johnnies, especially ::)), but I think my stance is more the norm.  I love beating the Wheaties, but if they are going against 'aliens', I'm for 'em 100%. ;D
Yeah, I know!  Go CRU!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 02, 2010, 12:24:14 AM
Quote from: Manuel Willocq on December 01, 2010, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 05:42:27 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
Quote from: frank uible on November 29, 2010, 08:00:57 PM
In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle? :P

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football. ;)

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

Again, then why don't they apply that same philosophy to the other NCAA sports they sponsor?  I just find that discussion confusing and certainly not-consistent.

Especially when football games are only played on Saturdays, and have the least amount of conflict with academics (as compared to baseball, soccer or basketball that regularly have competitions during the week and play MANY more games that would conflict with academic endeavors).

Has anyone, at anytime during this (football) discussion

So NESCAC is hypocritical in other sports besides football.  So what?  I'm sticking to football in this forum about football.  Why do people keep responding to my posts about NESCAC football with "but what about NESCAC triscuitball and NESCAC schnozzball and all those other balls?"  I would rather someone address the "high profile of football" issue from an earlier post, than discuss NESCAC hockeyball teams.

For some reason--which someone in this (football) forum doesn't care to analyze--NESCAC prefers intellectual inconsistency in all sports but football.  Some posters in this (football) forum seek intellectual consistency, have found intellectual consistency in NESCAC football, and don't particularly care to go looking for intellectual inconsistency.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 02, 2010, 07:29:44 AM
This whole topic is pretty easy for me.  I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY DO! 

Unless one of their pansy teams gets close to Mount's 55 game winning streak......... ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 02, 2010, 01:31:34 PM
do any NESCAC (football) athletes ever get selected for All-region/american honors? Or are they rarely considered?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 02, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
They are definitely considered and often selected.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on December 03, 2010, 12:03:20 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 02, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
They are definitely considered and often selected.

Why and How?

It's their own decision not to play any other D3 competition. Fine by me. But how do accurately evaluate their talent? You have nothing to base the strength of their teams or players on, aside from their ingrown conference.

I've never seen them play, so I can't speak to the product on the field. But without any non-con games or playoff material, isn't that a bit of a shot in the dark. Even their own coaches can't claim they really have an idea of what a DIII All-America caliber player is. They'd have great insight into what All-NESCAC is, but they literally never play against what we know to be elite talent.

We now know that the QB's for Trine and Franklin, even coming from traditionally weaker conferences, were exceptional athletes. We know Coppage is among the best. We know NCC's defense was as good as advertised. We know Wesley, if it can keep it's players out of jail (couldn't resist that one  :D), has some great players. Why, because they've proved it on the field by going up against the best of the best in the playoffs, non-con games and the regular season. NESCAC has only the latter to evaluate talent, and again, we really don't know how good that competition is. So, do we guess, that a certain NESCAC player is better than the rest. You can't even really rely on statistical comparisons, because again, we don't know if its apples to apples. Greenville's got a great RB with great stats this year, but he plays against terrible D's week in and week out. We know this, and so we'd be hesitant to say he's better than Coppage, or even Flannery.

Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 04:33:51 PM

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.


You'll just have to keep wondering...because no team in your conference has ever experienced the profile of football at a non-NESCAC school! ::)

Go check out Wabash - Wittenberg; North Central - Wheaton; Carleton - St. Olaf; St. Johns - St. Thomas...the list goes on and on.

And what about the rest of your games? Or is it only 1 Saturday a year that the school gets really interested and involved.

7 Conferences had better attendance than the NESCAC last year. 16 teams had better attendance than Trinity, 18 had better than Amherst. How many of Amherst's 13,000 total fans for the year came from one game against Williams??
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on December 03, 2010, 04:19:55 PM
Calm down; it's only DIII, not WWIII.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on December 03, 2010, 05:24:41 PM
Quote from: frank uible on December 03, 2010, 04:19:55 PM
Calm down; it's only DIII, not WWIII.

Who's worked up? ???

I just think it's an interesting topic. Isn't that what these boards are for?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 03, 2010, 09:04:22 PM
Quote from: hazzben on December 03, 2010, 12:03:20 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 04:33:51 PM

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.


You'll just have to keep wondering...because no team in your conference has ever experienced the profile of football at a non-NESCAC school! ::)

Go check out Wabash - Wittenberg; North Central - Wheaton; Carleton - St. Olaf; St. Johns - St. Thomas...the list goes on and on.

And what about the rest of your games? Or is it only 1 Saturday a year that the school gets really interested and involved.

7 Conferences had better attendance than the NESCAC last year. 16 teams had better attendance than Trinity, 18 had better than Amherst. How many of Amherst's 13,000 total fans for the year came from one game against Williams??

NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Where are you getting attendance statistics?  They sound interesting.  Does your source provide per-game attendance figures?  Given that NESCAC football teams play an 8 game schedule, those attendance figures might be more impressive on a per-game basis.  13,000 total attendance at four home games = 3,250/game, which I figure is pretty good, don't you?  Other Division III teams host 5 or even 6 regular season games, plus as many as four postseason games.

I'm not sure I understand your answer though.  On how many Division III campuses do you suppose the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst?  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates?  I don't know the answer, but I know that football is pretty high profile on those campuses, especially on those game days.  I hear tell that Coast Guard football is pretty high profile on campus on game days.  I frankly don't remember if that was the case when I played against Coast Guard (back in the days of leather helmets ;) ).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on December 03, 2010, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 03, 2010, 09:04:22 PM


NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 04, 2010, 09:20:02 AM
I posted this on the NESCEA board, but thought it was appropriate to post it here also after the recent discussion:

Saw a great story on E:60 this morning about Middlebury and "Picking Up Butch".

What a super tradition and excellent representation of D3 athletics!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 04, 2010, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: roocru on December 03, 2010, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 03, 2010, 09:04:22 PM


NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

Who is "we?"  Ralph agreed with me regarding the intellectual consistency of NESCAC football, so he must not be part of your "we."

What is "it" that your "we" think is inconsistent?

Thanks for contributing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 04, 2010, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 04, 2010, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: roocru on December 03, 2010, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 03, 2010, 09:04:22 PM


NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

Who is "we?"  Ralph agreed with me regarding the intellectual consistency of NESCAC football, so he must not be part of your "we."

What is "it" that your "we" think is inconsistent?

Thanks for contributing.

Uh, how did Ralph agree with you???

Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
No smiting from me....   ;)

The sport that highlights the inconsistency best is baseball.  After playing 14 games in Arizona from March 22 to April 1st (on spring break I hope), Williams played 23 games in 35 days, from April 5th thru May 9th, the day of their last game of the NESCAC tournament.

Trinity CT played 10 games in Florida from Mar 14th thru Mar 21st, and then played another 21 games from March 24th thru the end of the regular season, May 3rd.  Most of those were on the weekend, so that cut down on missed class time.

However Trinity CT played in the ECSU Regional was May 13-17 and then the "D3 World Series" was in Wisconsin May 22-23.  Trinity Commencement was May 23rd, 2010.  They were playing in the NCAA Baseball postseason during dead week and finals.

Thanks for the discussion.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: redswarm81 on December 04, 2010, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: Manuel Willocq on December 04, 2010, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 04, 2010, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: roocru on December 03, 2010, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 03, 2010, 09:04:22 PM


NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

Who is "we?"  Ralph agreed with me regarding the intellectual consistency of NESCAC football, so he must not be part of your "we."

What is "it" that your "we" think is inconsistent?

Thanks for contributing.

Uh, how did Ralph agree with you???

Here's how:

Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on December 01, 2010, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 29, 2010, 10:41:33 AM

Thanks for the response.   :)

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I concede on the point of intellectual consistency by the NESCAC on the subject of football.

:)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 04, 2010, 12:20:22 PM
Touche Pussycat!

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcT_xlyaabtcYaTymBQo3zfQazA-myBgqskELv4xXrnEvALrx-Pw2w&hash=14cef3e2a4ddba20c046082c2b1ab2fd7441560e)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 06, 2010, 06:02:32 PM
There are some simple points re: NESCAC. Most of them have been made.

A couple semi-new ones: When we ask people in the NESCAC, they are as curious about where they stand as we are. I am not so convinced they would be one-and-done, but it also would not be a five-week tournament. Three is possible, for Williams, Amherst or Trinity. Nine (or maybe eight) of the schools would have no change at all and keep right on going the way they're going.

I have argued before that no student-athlete anywhere would be more well-equipped to deal with the challenge of balancing school work and football than those who go to our academically most prestigious schools. Chicago and Pomona-Pitzer and Carleton and Carnegie Mellon kids figure it out just fine.

The NESCAC is being silly and self-contained, as is its right. They are blatantly hypocritical by not allowing football to do what all its other sports do, as is their right. The day the Ivy League changes its stance, the NESCAC will consider it.

They are harming no one. People on both sides of the argument have an interest in seeing how they'd do; we're all competitors or competitive observers and we'd welcome the NESCAC's participation.

As it stands, not only are they freeing up a bid for everyone else, but so is the 16-team NEFC laying claim to just one and not two. Ralph is right, the playoffs can't ever really expand beyond 32. So each Pool A conference that comes on board steals a B or C.

Hazzben, great questions. It's our best estimates, as a lot of things are in absence of what we know.

Circles have been run around the phrase "intellectual consistency." I'm hijacking my board back. We shall move on.

Next person to mention the NESCAC better be talking about how beautiful the fields are or how fun the game they went to this year was. Don't make me post at length about other D3 topics to distract you!

(You are, of course, free to continue arguing, but please don't)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2010, 06:15:02 PM
Or, if you like, you could argue it on the NESCAC board, where it's also been beaten to death but is more on-topic.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WarhawkDad on December 07, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2010, 06:15:02 PM
Or, if you like, you could argue it on the NESCAC board, where it's also been beaten to death but is more on-topic.
Amen.....so how about those semi-final games coming up this Saturday!   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on December 08, 2010, 07:55:01 AM
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 07, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 06, 2010, 06:15:02 PM
Or, if you like, you could argue it on the NESCAC board, where it's also been beaten to death but is more on-topic.
Amen.....so how about those semi-final games coming up this Saturday!   ;)

My "one-line" take on keys to victory for each team:

Wesley: Strike quick and get a two score lead, forcing UW-W to play come-back.
UW-W: Put more pressure on Sottilare than he's ever faced.
Bethel: Keep the game close into the fourth quarter and force a couple Purple Raider mistakes.
Mount Union: Just keep executing if the going is a little tougher against an excellent defense.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 08, 2010, 09:16:05 PM
bp, I like where that is heading.

I'm notoriously awful and semifinal and Stagg picks, I guess because i think everyone's good at this stage ... and I guess I have to withhold my opinons until Friday.

But re: your keys ...

I feel like UW-W is one of those teams that could be patient and run & run & run and score late. Like that 31-26 Stagg Bowl except not kick so many FGs.

Sotillare ... good observation. I think Wesley would screen, draw and quick hit if their line is being eaten up by UWW.

The other one, if Bethel can double-cover Shorts and limit him, MU will have to get Miller and Jasper Collins involved ... I think it might be a slow first half with both offenses feeling the defenses out.

Just not sure how Bethel is going to score on UMU. Can they line up and pound it down the throats of one of this year's best defenses? If so, it would go down in history with the other teams who have been able to run against UMU and beat them. Nobody I can think of has beaten them without being able to establish the run.

All that was off top and means maybe not a hill of beans ... just expanding the convo here :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on December 08, 2010, 09:41:26 PM
^ If you want to beat Mount Union, you have to win the battle at the line of scrimmage.  If you lose the battle up front, the game is over.  Period.  Winning the LOS doesn't guarantee you win the game, but losing the LOS does guarantee you'll lose the game.

I'm really looking forward to Mount's offense going against Bethel's defense.  The last 3 rounds have been against solid defenses, but nothing close to approaching good or great.  If Mount plays as sloppy as they did against Alfred, they're going to really struggle to score and this will be a game to the end. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 08, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
all great points.

all great sig lines too. LOL @ bikinis/statistics.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WarhawkDad on December 08, 2010, 11:55:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 08, 2010, 09:16:05 PM
bp, I like where that is heading.

I'm notoriously awful and semifinal and Stagg picks, I guess because i think everyone's good at this stage ... and I guess I have to withhold my opinons until Friday.

But re: your keys ...

I feel like UW-W is one of those teams that could be patient and run & run & run and score late. Like that 31-26 Stagg Bowl except not kick so many FGs.

Sotillare ... good observation. I think Wesley would screen, draw and quick hit if their line is being eaten up by UWW.

The other one, if Bethel can double-cover Shorts and limit him, MU will have to get Miller and Jasper Collins involved ... I think it might be a slow first half with both offenses feeling the defenses out.

Just not sure how Bethel is going to score on UMU. Can they line up and pound it down the throats of one of this year's best defenses? If so, it would go down in history with the other teams who have been able to run against UMU and beat them. Nobody I can think of has beaten them without being able to establish the run.

All that was off top and means maybe not a hill of beans ... just expanding the convo here :)
K-Mack

The interesting thing about Warhawk pressure is that it is mostly done with 4 down lineman, so the linebackers stay home.   Throwing screens actually plays into the defensive strategy.  We actually have a package where a linebacker blitzes but the d-end usually Louissant drops into coverage and he is fast enough to do it.  This will be a great test and I agree with HSCoach that the battle in the trenches will determine the outcome.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 09, 2010, 09:10:02 PM
It's always about the trenches this deep into the playoffs. Maybe quite honestly every year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on December 11, 2010, 11:41:10 AM
Quote from: HScoach on December 08, 2010, 09:41:26 PM
^ If you want to beat Mount Union, you have to win the battle at the line of scrimmage.  If you lose the battle up front, the game is over.  Period.  Winning the LOS doesn't guarantee you win the game, but losing the LOS does guarantee you'll lose the game.

Nail on the head.

If we're outclassed in the trenches, we are in trouble, bigtime. If we can compete there, then we've probably got ourselves a game. Keep an eye on who plays LG for BU. All MIAC LG Penz went down last week with a leg injury, but 'hoped' to play through it today. Didn't hear the final word, but it was initially diagnosed as a broken Fibula - the non-weight bearing bone in the lower leg. If that's the case and he's plays, holy smokes toughness on display! If he's out #70 will have to have a big game against the toughest D-Line we've seen to date.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2010, 03:30:49 PM
Found what I was talking about re: Kehres. Just occurred to me that wasn't on this thread, but HSCoach it was item 29.

Candle and Campbell called plays, and Bruney coached QBs.

http://archive.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2006-01-27/105+ways+to+remember+2005
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: skunks_sidekick on December 12, 2010, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2010, 03:30:49 PM
Found what I was talking about re: Kehres. Just occurred to me that wasn't on this thread, but HSCoach it was item 29.

Candle and Campbell called plays, and Bruney coached QBs.

http://archive.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2006-01-27/105+ways+to+remember+2005

Great stuff Keith....at times we Mount fans/LK affectionados forget all of his sublime moments because there are so many of them. 

I have a feeling there might be a few more at this Stagg Bowl.   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 13, 2010, 07:51:13 PM
Like the time you told me pregame that he was planning to pass early because he felt they'd be keying on Kmic and then he went up top to Shorts twice right away?

Maybe the best fan tip I've gotten in the D3 era. And I've gotten some good ones.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 13, 2010, 07:52:14 PM
Getting a lot of the usual questions this week from non-D3 folks in other walks of life who know what I do. Here's one short exchange:

QuoteRe: xxxGUYFROMWORKxxx message of 12/13/2010 6:14:34 PM: "its getting a little borign with MU - WW 6 yrs in a row ... "

Are you trying to be funny?

The theme of our podcast this week is don't confuse lack of variety with "boring."

Sure it's the same ol' teams, but the game won't be boring. They're evenly matched, and if it were a random year without the history, we'd love the idea of two heavyweights matching up on the field for the title after four weeks of playoffs.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MountUnion12 on December 19, 2010, 11:23:53 AM
Can anyone tell me some info why mcmurry moved up ???
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MountUnion12 on December 19, 2010, 11:29:14 AM
Mount Union was the king of division 3 football but winsconsin whitewater is creeping up on us!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: TxFight on March 04, 2011, 12:51:08 AM
Check out East Texas Baptist University's road schedule next year

@ Wesley
@ McMurry
@ Louisiana College
@ Mary Hardin Baylor
@ Sul Ross State

In case your keeping tabs, thats a national semi-finalists (Wesley), a national quarter-finalist (UMHB), ASC runner-up (LC), most high powered offense in these here parts returning just about everybody, not to mention how ticked they'll be about ETBUs "upset" last year (McM) and a 14 hour bus ride to the middle of nowhere (SRSU). 

So can anybody else in the nation boast a road schedule of that brutalness?  If ETBU can defend their home turf and win 4 of those 5 I think they have a legit shot at an at-large bid.  The defending the home turf is feasible (Austin College, Texas Lutheran, Hardin-Simmons minus Tiger Killer Feaster, Mississippi College and Howard Payne), but that road schedule would be tough for just about anybody in the nation (minus UWW and Mt. U).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: labart96 on March 16, 2011, 03:24:47 PM
Sounds like a lot to ask a .500 team (i.e., getting a playoff bid) playing a schedule like that one.  Not to mention the fact they were handily beaten by one of those schools (Louisana) and lost (albeit by only six points) to MHB.

Still a great way for ETBU to expand their program and play some of the best teams (like Wesley) in the country.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on May 13, 2011, 02:24:54 PM
This might be a little off topic.....but unless I totally missed it, I don't think Keith put out is 2010 Year in Review column. I usually like reading that in the off-season.

Not sure if that's something he did at the end of every season, or maybe it was just a one-time thing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 04, 2011, 08:59:59 PM
Not only is it perfectly on-topic, but you are correct; I did not do a Year in Review column this year.

I know I spent some time working on it and I will try to salvage part of it for something in advance of kickoff (not Kickoff) this season -- the best photos from last year at the very least. We had a lot of photographers send it submissions for that so I think it can be done pretty easily.

At the moment, we're already planning Kickoff '11. We have some great ideas for features we want to dig into and longtime questions that need answers.

But if any reader dedicated enough to find this board and read it in July has suggestions for questions that need answering or people (preferably not from your favorite team, as it will help your suggestion seem more credible) that need shine, fire away. I'm all for crowd-sourcing ideas; after all, you guys are the ones Kickoff serves.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on July 04, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Keith, check your PMs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on July 05, 2011, 02:42:58 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 04, 2011, 08:59:59 PM
Not only is it perfectly on-topic, but you are correct; I did not do a Year in Review column this year.

I know I spent some time working on it and I will try to salvage part of it for something in advance of kickoff (not Kickoff) this season -- the best photos from last year at the very least. We had a lot of photographers send it submissions for that so I think it can be done pretty easily.

At the moment, we're already planning Kickoff '11. We have some great ideas for features we want to dig into and longtime questions that need answers.

But if any reader dedicated enough to find this board and read it in July has suggestions for questions that need answering or people (preferably not from your favorite team, as it will help your suggestion seem more credible) that need shine, fire away. I'm all for crowd-sourcing ideas; after all, you guys are the ones Kickoff serves.

Had a question about the selection process for the tournament. Seems that the committee took a different approach in selecting teams and where they are seeded.  What caused the shift in thought process? Since there's a different committee chairman each year, does it really just depend on who's running the show for that year?

Also, was the change in NCAA selection process the direct result of last season?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 05, 2011, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on July 04, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Keith, check your PMs.

That's a good idea. I think we might take that one and run with it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on July 05, 2011, 06:15:15 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on July 05, 2011, 02:42:58 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on July 04, 2011, 08:59:59 PM
Not only is it perfectly on-topic, but you are correct; I did not do a Year in Review column this year.

I know I spent some time working on it and I will try to salvage part of it for something in advance of kickoff (not Kickoff) this season -- the best photos from last year at the very least. We had a lot of photographers send it submissions for that so I think it can be done pretty easily.

At the moment, we're already planning Kickoff '11. We have some great ideas for features we want to dig into and longtime questions that need answers.

But if any reader dedicated enough to find this board and read it in July has suggestions for questions that need answering or people (preferably not from your favorite team, as it will help your suggestion seem more credible) that need shine, fire away. I'm all for crowd-sourcing ideas; after all, you guys are the ones Kickoff serves.

Had a question about the selection process for the tournament. Seems that the committee took a different approach in selecting teams and where they are seeded.  What caused the shift in thought process? Since there's a different committee chairman each year, does it really just depend on who's running the show for that year?

Also, was the change in NCAA selection process the direct result of last season?

Also a good idea for us to write about, though a question probably best answered around playoff time. Also it's tough to get committee members except the chairperson on the record.

I think to a degree it does depend on the makeup of the committee, because the criteria is written loosely enough for interpretation. I think also the reaction from previous years helps determine the course the committee hopes to set.

Sometimes though it's just the pool of available teams. Last year there were six undefeateds with legit claims at the 4 top seeds and 9 teams in line for the 6 pool C bids. Doesn't matter what a committee does then, not everyone will be happy.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 06, 2011, 10:58:09 AM
And remember that last year the committee was held to the letter of the law by the overall Division III championships committee. The addition to the criteria for this upcoming season looks like an attempt by the football committee to write in the common-sense flexibility it has had in previous years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on July 07, 2011, 02:02:35 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 06, 2011, 10:58:09 AM
And remember that last year the committee was held to the letter of the law by the overall Division III championships committee. The addition to the criteria for this upcoming season looks like an attempt by the football committee to write in the common-sense flexibility it has had in previous years.

;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 21, 2011, 10:34:35 PM
K-Mack, something very weird just happened.  I tried to reply to your PM (3 times) and got an error message that no such poster as K-Mack exists!

Have you been banned and Pat forgot to tell you?! :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on August 21, 2011, 10:52:43 PM
I wonder if the dash in his handle causes issues in the PM system.  I know I read somewhere else (I can't remember where, now) that someone else's name made it impossible to send PMs to them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 21, 2011, 10:56:12 PM
Quote from: pg04 on August 21, 2011, 10:52:43 PM
I wonder if the dash in his handle causes issues in the PM system.  I know I read somewhere else (I can't remember where, now) that someone else's name made it impossible to send PMs to them.

I've successfully sent him PMs before.  And this one was just 'quote' and 'reply', so I know I ddn't mistype his handle.  A mystery.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on August 21, 2011, 10:56:28 PM
Never mind, I need to read further back to see that you had sent him one before correctly.  Hmmm
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 21, 2011, 11:50:27 PM
His display name has a hyphen in it but his login doesn't. That may make a difference.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 23, 2011, 12:15:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on August 21, 2011, 10:34:35 PM
K-Mack, something very weird just happened.  I tried to reply to your PM (3 times) and got an error message that no such poster as K-Mack exists!

Have you been banned and Pat forgot to tell you?! :P

I changed my e-mail address in my profile from @d3football.com to @d3sports.com ... since that took effect about a year ago I figured it was about time. It made me re-validate myself (pun not intended) but like many things I did not do it right away. You probably replied in my unvalidated period.

Should be good now.

Kickoff is live. New design. New focus on chats with players. Thoughts?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on August 23, 2011, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 23, 2011, 12:15:09 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on August 21, 2011, 10:34:35 PM
K-Mack, something very weird just happened.  I tried to reply to your PM (3 times) and got an error message that no such poster as K-Mack exists!

Have you been banned and Pat forgot to tell you?! :P

I changed my e-mail address in my profile from @d3football.com to @d3sports.com ... since that took effect about a year ago I figured it was about time. It made me re-validate myself (pun not intended) but like many things I did not do it right away. You probably replied in my unvalidated period.

Should be good now.

Kickoff is live. New design. New focus on chats with players. Thoughts?



K Mack- As I posted on the WIAC board, I just opened Kick Off and now I'll be seriously challenged to focus on work the rest of the afternoon.  The first article I read (The Recipe to End the Reign of the Purple Powers) was fantastic and the new design is terrific.  I love the scrolling articles.

Thanks and well done- you should charge more $$$$. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: matblake on August 23, 2011, 01:45:43 PM
 I really like the new Kickoff.  Personally I think it's easier to navigate.  I like the scrolling links to the features on the right a lot.   It could just be me, but there seems to be a bunch more photographs than in the past.  
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 23, 2011, 04:24:07 PM
Quote from: matblake on August 23, 2011, 01:45:43 PM
I really like the new Kickoff.  Personally I think it's easier to navigate.  I like the scrolling links to the features on the right a lot.   It could just be me, but there seems to be a bunch more photographs than in the past.  

Thanks, Mat. I didn't keep track of numbers in past seasons but we did work very hard to implement as many photos as possible. This is definitely a better look and feel, too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 23, 2011, 04:30:15 PM
And thanks, emma. I wish we could, of course, but trying to stay at least somewhat in line with what a preseason magazine would cost on the newsstand.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 23, 2011, 04:46:55 PM
Kickoff has always been great - it is now even better!

Is any attempt made (considering your lack of staff) to 'reconcile' the predictions of various conferences (which I understand are made by a variety of people)?  I noted, for example, that Olivet is predicted to again go winless, but Cornell is predicted to be winless in non-con games.  Even as down as both programs have been, I'm not sure football rules allow them BOTH to lose when they meet September third! :o ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 23, 2011, 04:47:56 PM
I responded via private message. Actually, looks like that was before you posted this.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: voice on August 23, 2011, 06:03:52 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on August 23, 2011, 04:46:55 PM
Kickoff has always been great - it is now even better!

Is any attempt made (considering your lack of staff) to 'reconcile' the predictions of various conferences (which I understand are made by a variety of people)?  I noted, for example, that Olivet is predicted to again go winless, but Cornell is predicted to be winless in non-con games.  Even as down as both programs have been, I'm not sure football rules allow them BOTH to lose when they meet September third! :o ;D

Outstanding job gentlemen!!As has been the case for several years, I will put a story on my Websites: http://www.warhawkfootball.com/ and http://www.voiceseyeonfootball.blogspot.com/ promoting the 2011 Kickoff E-magazine on D3football.com and link my readers to the Websites Kickoff \'11 signup link.   Go Warhawks!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 23, 2011, 08:32:56 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on August 23, 2011, 04:46:55 PM
Kickoff has always been great - it is now even better!

Is any attempt made (considering your lack of staff) to 'reconcile' the predictions of various conferences (which I understand are made by a variety of people)?  I noted, for example, that Olivet is predicted to again go winless, but Cornell is predicted to be winless in non-con games.  Even as down as both programs have been, I'm not sure football rules allow them BOTH to lose when they meet September third! :o ;D

In previous years we have been able to have Pat or Gordon compile a national spreadsheet and balance them so "Kickoff" itself only makes one prediction. There is a place for each writer to record his or her pick so we can go through and do that.

The other school of thought, of course, is that you're best considering each prediction independent of another; technically, two writers within Kickoff could disagree.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 23, 2011, 10:01:29 PM
Uhh --- huh? I don't remember any spreadsheet. Wish it were that easy. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on August 23, 2011, 10:49:43 PM
general question -- I haven't bought it yet but will once I have time to get into it.  Can you buy it at any time this season or is there an end date?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 24, 2011, 10:21:23 AM
It will be available whenever -- we stop actively promoting it when games start.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: old ends on August 25, 2011, 10:29:06 AM
Does anyone know if there will any games streamed this year? Any Conference have that this year?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: matblake on August 25, 2011, 11:14:16 AM
Quote from: old ends on August 25, 2011, 10:29:06 AM
Does anyone know if there will any games streamed this year? Any Conference have that this year?

Thanks in advance

My favorite way to check for the games that have Audio or Video for the games is to go to the scores section on D3football.com.  Here (http://www.d3football.com/scoreboard/composite) is a link.  Next to some games you will see the initials LS, A, or V.  LS stands for live stats, A for Audio and V for video.  If you click on one of the initials, you'll be redirected to where you can get the live stats, the audio, or the video of the game.  I find this is the easiest way, especially when you are looking for games with teams that you don't necessarily follow from week to week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 25, 2011, 11:43:05 AM
And as the games get closer, that list will fill out.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 25, 2011, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 25, 2011, 11:43:05 AM
And as the games get closer, that list will fill out.

And, unfortunately for their supporters, some schools won't update the list.  From time to time you'll find a game being broadcast only by going to the school's own football site. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 25, 2011, 12:35:08 PM
Well, for football, with only 240 programs instead of 800, we do our best to get them all in.

The process for schools to post links has gotten much easier with PrestoSports over the past year-plus.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 26, 2011, 03:28:35 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 23, 2011, 10:01:29 PM
Uhh --- huh? I don't remember any spreadsheet. Wish it were that easy. :)

It might have been a Word doc but I remember Gordon doing it that way one year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: scvjefe on August 30, 2011, 11:40:12 AM
Pardon if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but are y'all planning to resume the ATN podcasts this year?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 30, 2011, 12:31:57 PM
I don't think we've talked about it on the boards but we will continue to do the podcast. Look for it next Monday. I think some years we've done a pre-Week 1 podcast but this year we had too many other things going on.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: scvjefe on August 30, 2011, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on August 30, 2011, 12:31:57 PM
I don't think we've talked about it on the boards but we will continue to do the podcast. Look for it next Monday. I think some years we've done a pre-Week 1 podcast but this year we had too many other things going on.

Awesome.  Thanks, and I'll keep an eye out for it.  Great job on Kickoff, by the way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 08, 2011, 06:56:05 PM
I'm baaaaaaack (http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2011/taking-the-field-just-part-of-the-battle).

And covering about everything I could have missed.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on September 08, 2011, 08:02:31 PM
Very nice ATN. I'd assume many people find these boards and the D3 sites when their team is doing well, and I'm no different. I picked up here last year when W&L had a great year and have been an avid follower ever since. I'm happy to see ATN back. It really is a nice place to read up on some stories in D3 that you will never find anywhere else. Finding a place with well-written, feature length, articles on D3 issues week in and week out is simply fantastic. Thanks for doing such a great job.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2011, 12:48:21 AM
Quote from: jknezek on September 08, 2011, 08:02:31 PM
Very nice ATN. I'd assume many people find these boards and the D3 sites when their team is doing well, and I'm no different. I picked up here last year when W&L had a great year and have been an avid follower ever since. I'm happy to see ATN back. It really is a nice place to read up on some stories in D3 that you will never find anywhere else. Finding a place with well-written, feature length, articles on D3 issues week in and week out is simply fantastic. Thanks for doing such a great job.

Welcome -- hope you stick around! Spread the word, too, among your fellow W&L fans, alumni, parents, whatnot.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 10, 2011, 04:11:53 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2011, 12:48:21 AM
Quote from: jknezek on September 08, 2011, 08:02:31 PM
Very nice ATN. I'd assume many people find these boards and the D3 sites when their team is doing well, and I'm no different. I picked up here last year when W&L had a great year and have been an avid follower ever since. I'm happy to see ATN back. It really is a nice place to read up on some stories in D3 that you will never find anywhere else. Finding a place with well-written, feature length, articles on D3 issues week in and week out is simply fantastic. Thanks for doing such a great job.

Welcome -- hope you stick around! Spread the word, too, among your fellow W&L fans, alumni, parents, whatnot.

I second this.

Also feel free to drop a line, suggest a storyline, etc. anytime. We're not too busy to interact with you.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 16, 2011, 01:37:04 AM
[tumbleweed rolls by]
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on September 16, 2011, 04:26:57 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 16, 2011, 01:37:04 AM
[tumbleweed rolls by]

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi395.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp31%2FYanglow%2Fanimation%2Fth_tumbleweed.gif%3Ft%3D1262912830&hash=ef8f8b4e1deabdd0cc728e33eb65e8f426e09d22)
(K-Mack is the guy with the yellow head)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 16, 2011, 02:37:19 PM
Bethel wasn't listed on your team colors list. At least as far as my eyes could tell.

Navy Blue and Gold (think typical Notre Dame or Navy type unis). Although we now go all white jersey's and pants for the away games.

And I know exactly what you mean about the fall smell. It's my favorite season for just that reason. The crisp feel of the air, the turning of the leaves and the scent takes me back to every autumn afternoon from 6th grade through senior year. What an experience, one I wouldn't trade for the world.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 16, 2011, 05:06:04 PM
Interestingly, while the school colors are maroon & white, Trinity (TX) has new home unis that are black with silver numerals and helmets.  The only thing maroon is the logo on the helmet.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd3football.com%2Fimages%2F2011%2Ftrnu-granchelli-250.jpg%3Fmax_height%3D199%26amp%3Bmax_width%3D250&hash=575b67dcbff628877dfe3cfcf836f61b6c6db961)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 16, 2011, 06:48:24 PM
Respectfully, Sul Ross State is scarlet and gray.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 16, 2011, 08:07:37 PM
As Keith said:

"Using the data on D3football.com's team pages, I boiled all the names down to the colors they appear to be to the naked eye."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 16, 2011, 11:47:26 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 16, 2011, 08:07:37 PM
As Keith said:

"Using the data on D3football.com's team pages, I boiled all the names down to the colors they appear to be to the naked eye."
Okay...   :)

Sul Ross State D3football home page (http://www.d3football.com/teams/Sul_Ross_State/2011/index).

D3football.com Link to Official Site (http://www.sulross.edu/pages/6216.asp?ssid=3682)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 17, 2011, 09:11:44 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 16, 2011, 08:07:37 PM
As Keith said:

"Using the data on D3football.com's team pages, I boiled all the names down to the colors they appear to be to the naked eye."

He also admitted the list might be incomplete or slightly inaccurate in places and then welcomed our input. I wasn't trying to nitpick, I was simply letting Keith know about a team he missed from his list. Which is what he asked us to do.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 17, 2011, 09:52:31 AM
I wasn't directing my comments at you, hazzben, sorry for the confusion.

Looks like I need to get out and see your team this year, and soon. They are rolling!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 17, 2011, 12:00:19 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 17, 2011, 09:52:31 AM
I wasn't directing my comments at you, hazzben, sorry for the confusion.

Looks like I need to get out and see your team this year, and soon. They are rolling!

No worries.

I've been relegated to the webcasts since moving down to KC, but I'll be attendance for the Oct 1 game against the Oles. They usually give us a very good game (they matchup better against us than they do agains the Toms IMO). But if I was you, I'd wait a few weeks for UST. Hopefully we're still rolling at that point!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2011, 04:46:16 PM
Ironically, I ended up there for the fourth quarter yesterday because of the way things ended up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 18, 2011, 11:28:24 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2011, 04:46:16 PM
Ironically, I ended up there for the fourth quarter yesterday because of the way things ended up.

That was one weird game. I don't think I've ever seen a game where both teams had a punt hit a blocker on the return and get recovered by the opposition, both in the redzone. Whole game just seemed to have a strange vibe to it. I will say, I have a ton of respect for Ramler as a coach. His schemes and the fundamentals of his players are always solid, even if he doesn't always have the horses to go toe to toe with everyone.

Did you take in the 1st half of UST then? Was there more to it than the score or was UST just that much superior to Olaf?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 19, 2011, 11:10:49 AM
No, actually I started the day at Northwestern/Presentation, just to see what Presentation has. But at halftime I had to call an audible and get to what could have been a bigger story.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 22, 2011, 02:08:19 PM
Re: the colors, Hazzben is right, I asked for the feedback.

I think originally I grouped red and Cardinal with the reds, and almost everything else with the maroons.

I mistakenly put Scarlet with the maroons. Got the same note from Huntingdon as Ralph posted re: Sul Ross.

Anyway, since we're all having fun crowd sourcing, check out the bottom of the new column. I want to discuss best team names in D-III
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 22, 2011, 09:27:05 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 22, 2011, 02:08:19 PM
Re: the colors, Hazzben is right, I asked for the feedback.

I think originally I grouped red and Cardinal with the reds, and almost everything else with the maroons.

I mistakenly put Scarlet with the maroons. Got the same note from Huntingdon as Ralph posted re: Sul Ross.

Anyway, since we're all having fun crowd sourcing, check out the bottom of the new column. I want to discuss best team names in D-III
I appreciate the information and the effort to which you went to write the article.  :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 23, 2011, 12:00:51 AM
Tom Linneman in the most recent Around the Nation:

QuoteI would also tell players to spend at least the amount of time you spend studying for a class in the film room — or even more. That probably drives administrators nuts but it's reality if you want to win. I got my job because of the connections I made playing football. Are you gonna get your job based on your English 212 Writing Well class?  If you're never surprised on Saturdays you have a better chance to win and a better chance to make adaptations and adjustments. But it's not just about watching film. It's not about having the tape on the big screen and eating Twizzlers or Gardettos with your feet up. It's about deliberate study. You won't be prepared if you think that somehow ambiently you'll understand how they're rolling their safeties or which cornerback has better hips and breaks on the ball. You have to go into a room and study it with INTENT. Coaches talk about practicing with purpose on the field but then it's lounge time in film—not if you want to use it to the fullest. Deliberate study is another separation between you and the other player.

Really  :o So much for the student-athlete in DIII. Share with me how that's any different from the mentality taken at DII and DI institutions?

I'm absolutely with him on his prior comment regarding 'swag' and playing to win. I'm in total agreement on the difference between watching film and studying film. He hits the nail on the head with preparation and practicing like you want to play on Saturday.

But I think what he says about the greater commitment to football than academics is garbage. Wonderful that you got a job because of a Johnnie football connection Tom. But the vast majority of students get their jobs because they care about their studies. Players get into med school, law school, grad school and land great jobs because they've put in the work in school. They've got strong gpa's and letters of recommendation. And yes, a journalist or editor may just get a job because of how they do and what they learn in an English class. The same way an accountant may get a job or an internship because of their grades and what they learned in accounting class. The chemist in organic chemistry, etc, etc. In today's economy, there are actually a lot of students graduating into a job market where they can't find a job. How they prepare and the impression they make on profs who can help write a strong recommendation goes a long way.

I mean, are these primarily athletic institutions or academic institutions. Yeeesh! I think college sports are actually a great way to learn discipline in school that carries over into the classroom. I think its garbage when athletes don't put in the time necessary to compete just because its DIII. But those are also the players and programs that usually don't see the field or the playoffs. But this is DIII. 99.9% of us are never going pro and taking school seriously is exactly what I hope your average DIII player does.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bombers798891 on September 23, 2011, 08:48:06 AM
Quote from: hazzben on September 23, 2011, 12:00:51 AM
Tom Linneman in the most recent Around the Nation:

QuoteI would also tell players to spend at least the amount of time you spend studying for a class in the film room — or even more. That probably drives administrators nuts but it's reality if you want to win. I got my job because of the connections I made playing football. Are you gonna get your job based on your English 212 Writing Well class?  If you're never surprised on Saturdays you have a better chance to win and a better chance to make adaptations and adjustments. But it's not just about watching film. It's not about having the tape on the big screen and eating Twizzlers or Gardettos with your feet up. It's about deliberate study. You won't be prepared if you think that somehow ambiently you'll understand how they're rolling their safeties or which cornerback has better hips and breaks on the ball. You have to go into a room and study it with INTENT. Coaches talk about practicing with purpose on the field but then it's lounge time in film—not if you want to use it to the fullest. Deliberate study is another separation between you and the other player.

Really  :o So much for the student-athlete in DIII. Share with me how that's any different from the mentality taken at DII and DI institutions?

I'm absolutely with him on his prior comment regarding 'swag' and playing to win. I'm in total agreement on the difference between watching film and studying film. He hits the nail on the head with preparation and practicing like you want to play on Saturday.

But I think what he says about the greater commitment to football than academics is garbage. Wonderful that you got a job because of a Johnnie football connection Tom. But the vast majority of students get their jobs because they care about their studies. Players get into med school, law school, grad school and land great jobs because they've put in the work in school. They've got strong gpa's and letters of recommendation. And yes, a journalist or editor may just get a job because of how they do and what they learn in an English class. The same way an accountant may get a job or an internship because of their grades and what they learned in accounting class. The chemist in organic chemistry, etc, etc. In today's economy, there are actually a lot of students graduating into a job market where they can't find a job. How they prepare and the impression they make on profs who can help write a strong recommendation goes a long way.

I mean, are these primarily athletic institutions or academic institutions. Yeeesh! I think college sports are actually a great way to learn discipline in school that carries over into the classroom. I think its garbage when athletes don't put in the time necessary to compete just because its DIII. But those are also the players and programs that usually don't see the field or the playoffs. But this is DIII. 99.9% of us are never going pro and taking school seriously is exactly what I hope your average DIII player does.

Like you, I'm upset as his implication that doing well in actual college classes is less important to getting a job than playing football. What an absurd statement. Are you going to get a job based on you ability to write a coherent sentence? Nah, just tell 'em you played ball, and they'll hook you up. That's a dangerous piece of advice to give players.

Look, I don't doubt that there absolutely is a group of people who get and give jobs based on things like playing football. But, to take something he said earlier in the column, you play D-III football. Get over yourself. Here's something athletes and sports fans seem to have a hard time understanding: Not everyone cares about sports. There are millions of people who have zero interest in the game of football, and could care less that you played. And there are also quite a few people who do love sports but have this crazy idea that they should hire the people who are qualified to do the job.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on September 23, 2011, 09:20:31 AM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on September 23, 2011, 08:48:06 AM
Quote from: hazzben on September 23, 2011, 12:00:51 AM
Tom Linneman in the most recent Around the Nation:

QuoteI would also tell players to spend at least the amount of time you spend studying for a class in the film room — or even more. That probably drives administrators nuts but it's reality if you want to win. I got my job because of the connections I made playing football. Are you gonna get your job based on your English 212 Writing Well class?  If you're never surprised on Saturdays you have a better chance to win and a better chance to make adaptations and adjustments. But it's not just about watching film. It's not about having the tape on the big screen and eating Twizzlers or Gardettos with your feet up. It's about deliberate study. You won't be prepared if you think that somehow ambiently you'll understand how they're rolling their safeties or which cornerback has better hips and breaks on the ball. You have to go into a room and study it with INTENT. Coaches talk about practicing with purpose on the field but then it's lounge time in film—not if you want to use it to the fullest. Deliberate study is another separation between you and the other player.

Really  :o So much for the student-athlete in DIII. Share with me how that's any different from the mentality taken at DII and DI institutions?

I'm absolutely with him on his prior comment regarding 'swag' and playing to win. I'm in total agreement on the difference between watching film and studying film. He hits the nail on the head with preparation and practicing like you want to play on Saturday.

But I think what he says about the greater commitment to football than academics is garbage. Wonderful that you got a job because of a Johnnie football connection Tom. But the vast majority of students get their jobs because they care about their studies. Players get into med school, law school, grad school and land great jobs because they've put in the work in school. They've got strong gpa's and letters of recommendation. And yes, a journalist or editor may just get a job because of how they do and what they learn in an English class. The same way an accountant may get a job or an internship because of their grades and what they learned in accounting class. The chemist in organic chemistry, etc, etc. In today's economy, there are actually a lot of students graduating into a job market where they can't find a job. How they prepare and the impression they make on profs who can help write a strong recommendation goes a long way.

I mean, are these primarily athletic institutions or academic institutions. Yeeesh! I think college sports are actually a great way to learn discipline in school that carries over into the classroom. I think its garbage when athletes don't put in the time necessary to compete just because its DIII. But those are also the players and programs that usually don't see the field or the playoffs. But this is DIII. 99.9% of us are never going pro and taking school seriously is exactly what I hope your average DIII player does.

Like you, I'm upset as his implication that doing well in actual college classes is less important to getting a job than playing football. What an absurd statement. Are you going to get a job based on you ability to write a coherent sentence? Nah, just tell 'em you played ball, and they'll hook you up. That's a dangerous piece of advice to give players.

Look, I don't doubt that there absolutely is a group of people who get and give jobs based on things like playing football. But, to take something he said earlier in the column, you play D-III football. Get over yourself. Here's something athletes and sports fans seem to have a hard time understanding: Not everyone cares about sports. There are millions of people who have zero interest in the game of football, and could care less that you played. And there are also quite a few people who do love sports but have this crazy idea that they should hire the people who are qualified to do the job.

It's been Pep's observation over the years that the rigors and disciplines of football not only helps student-athletes in their academic pursuits, but also results in well-rounded individuals who, together with their academic learning, acquire the character that makes them highly desirable as employees, and, therefore, well qualified for a job in their field.

As for team colors, Pep believes that Alfred was listed as purple and yellow, but, in harmony with the fight song lyrics,"Purple and gold proclaim Alfred's royalty" and, going back to that student body decision in 1874, it's always been "royal purple and gold (http://www.herr.alfred.edu/special/archives/univ_hist/trivia.cfm)." And, as far as original and cool nicknames, Pep thinks one can't match the Saxons!

On Saxon Warriors!


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bombers798891 on September 23, 2011, 10:19:42 AM
Quote from: AUPepBand on September 23, 2011, 09:20:31 AM

It's been Pep's observation over the years that the rigors and disciplines of football not only helps student-athletes in their academic pursuits, but also results in well-rounded individuals who, together with their academic learning, acquire the character that makes them highly desirable as employees, and, therefore, well qualified for a job in their field.


If you want to say that there are things you can learn through sports that will aid you in your career, this is certainly true, but the original statement was not saying that. As Hazzben put it, one of the things so many of us love about D-III sports is the different mentality our schools seem to take towards the importance of academics in an athlete's life. Most student athletes ARE going to get a job based on how they do in their classes. Playing football isn't going to help you if you can't string two sentences together. (And really, of all the classes he could have picked, he picked writing, a skill that is valued by nearly every employer? I know plenty of employers who will throw out resumes with mistakes in them--or ones that are simply poorly written.

As a current professor, I have taught a few athletes, and thankfully, none of them followed that advice and slacked off in the classroom because they were banking on their athletic abilities to secure them a job. If faced with a student who believed that, I'd want to have a serious talk with them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on September 23, 2011, 10:42:40 AM
A couple of different views on the subject (not DIII, but you get the point)...

The Kansas Comet, Gale Sayers, once said:
"Football is a very short-term proposition. Football really prepares you for nothing. The only thing I got out of football was the ability to work hard, and that's it."

On the other hand, a quote by Gen. George Marshall reads, "I want an officer for a secret and dangerous mission. I want a West Point football player."  The sign is touched by the Army Black Knights as they enter the field for every home game in Michie Stadium at the United States Military Academy in West Point.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on September 23, 2011, 12:21:41 PM
I'm with Hazzben and the others here. I can't add anything more to Hazzben's response, which is excellent.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 23, 2011, 12:24:03 PM
A lot of you just got +1's from this observer. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: frank uible on September 23, 2011, 02:50:42 PM
Football got Gale Sayers at least a short career as a professional football player and a job as AD of Southern Illinois University - and probably more.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bombers798891 on September 23, 2011, 04:56:10 PM
Quote from: frank uible on September 23, 2011, 02:50:42 PM
Football got Gale Sayers at least a short career as a professional football player and a job as AD of Southern Illinois University - and probably more.

And for the fractional few that can be as good as Sayers or work for someone who is willing to hire them despite not spending time in the English Writing Well 212 course, that's a good thing. But I have a feeling the punter for Castleton State may want to hit the books
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2011, 08:14:48 PM
Quote from: AUPepBand on September 23, 2011, 09:20:31 AM
As for team colors, Pep believes that Alfred was listed as purple and yellow, but, in harmony with the fight song lyrics,"Purple and gold proclaim Alfred's royalty" and, going back to that student body decision in 1874, it's always been "royal purple and gold (http://www.herr.alfred.edu/special/archives/univ_hist/trivia.cfm)." And, as far as original and cool nicknames, Pep thinks one can't match the Saxons!

I bought a shirt at Alfred and it's most certainly yellow ... either that or I want my $20-something bucks back.

That's what I meant by some have to pass the eye test. A lot of yellows call themselves gold, and so forth. Don't even get me started again on the reds.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2011, 08:30:33 PM
Re: Tom, Bomb and Hazzben,
I mostly got out of Tom's note that you should be putting maximum effort into football, not necessarily at the expense of classwork, but in addition to it.

Techinically that's what he said in the first bolded sentence, but not so much in the last two.

You guys write fine rebuttals; it's definitely true that what Tom wrote about jobs and the advice most players might want to heed aren't one and the same.

I think it's good that there's disagreement and rebuttal. I don't know that there definitely has to be a right answer, but if pushed, I would probably say that while football is a very valid learning experience and networking opportunity, it's a good idea to take school seriously as well. Y'know, just in case. :)

I didn't really realize I was publishing something that goes against most of what we write, and what ATN says D-III stands for. Then again, that's why I like Tom and his advice. It's never the generic what you think it's going to be, and that's good to hear too.

Appreciate the replies on the board here. Maybe I'll point readers toward this this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on September 29, 2011, 12:10:25 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 27, 2011, 08:14:48 PM
Quote from: AUPepBand on September 23, 2011, 09:20:31 AM
As for team colors, Pep believes that Alfred was listed as purple and yellow, but, in harmony with the fight song lyrics,"Purple and gold proclaim Alfred's royalty" and, going back to that student body decision in 1874, it's always been "royal purple and gold (http://www.herr.alfred.edu/special/archives/univ_hist/trivia.cfm)." And, as far as original and cool nicknames, Pep thinks one can't match the Saxons!

I bought a shirt at Alfred and it's most certainly yellow ... either that or I want my $20-something bucks back.

That's what I meant by some have to pass the eye test. A lot of yellows call themselves gold, and so forth. Don't even get me started again on the reds.

K-Mack: It would have been a safer bet to buy purple....you must have been a victim of that counterfeit tee-shirt operation. Will an XL fit? Pep will be happy to send you an authentic AU Pep Band t-shirt....a white tee with the official seal of the AU Pep Band in purple and gold. (Gold was not an option on the Change Color drop-down).  :o

On Saxon Warriors!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: clandfan on October 03, 2011, 12:55:07 PM
Ohio Northern holds MU to 14 points and loses by only 7.  Perhaps that best regular season showing against the giant in many years.  For their efforts, they get dropped from the Top 25.  Mount Union, on the other hand, still gets 4 first place votes.  Programs should be rated on more than won / loss records.  I know, I know...its not how you play the game, its whether you when or lose...I get it!  Not really.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 04, 2011, 10:55:01 AM
If that game were played that way on a clean, dry field, I'd have agreed with you.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2011, 09:43:38 PM
If it makes you feel better, ONU had no business being in the top 25 the week before; don't look at it so much as a one-week referendum on a well-played loss against Mount Union. ONU did do some damage; UMU lost two of its six first-place votes.

Also too, at two losses, a voter can make a case sometimes to still vote for a team. Once you get to a losing record you really can't justify it.

Also AU, it was an official shirt. You can call it gold all you like, but Alfred wears purple and yellow.

This is purple and gold:
http://www.knox.edu/athletics/football.html
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on October 06, 2011, 06:08:29 PM
Keith, I really enjoyed this week's column.  One of your best in my view!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on October 07, 2011, 08:45:15 PM
Great column Keith.  Really interesting stuff and you drive home a really important point for all D3 fans.  Enjoy the journey!  There is much to treasure each week and each game.  With teams playing on small college campuses all over the country, there is too much good stuff happening to worry about whether the Stagg Bowl is all purple or not.  Even as a loyal follower of UW-W, I am concerned about one thing: enjoying October 8th. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on October 08, 2011, 07:46:17 AM
"Ya Gotta Pull For..."

www.uwwfootball.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jerry Bawcom on October 10, 2011, 11:50:56 AM
You are so right; enjoy the journey.  The CRU "road warriors" journey in 2004 was an incredible experience; a lifetime experience for some of the players.  The CRU in the playoffs since has been great fun, except for the game at Linfield a couple of years ago....
I'm going to miss the next two weeks of games and am already having withdrawal!  There's nothing like fall, the smell of grass, the sounds of the band and football to stir up one's excitement!!!  D-III thanks for the memories!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 13, 2011, 02:47:38 PM
Quote from: Jerry Bawcom on October 10, 2011, 11:50:56 AM
You are so right; enjoy the journey.  The CRU "road warriors" journey in 2004 was an incredible experience; a lifetime experience for some of the players.  The CRU in the playoffs since has been great fun, except for the game at Linfield a couple of years ago....
I'm going to miss the next two weeks of games and am already having withdrawal!  There's nothing like fall, the smell of grass, the sounds of the band and football to stir up one's excitement!!!  D-III thanks for the memories!!!

Hear here.

Always an honor to have a doctor on the boards.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Warren Thompson on October 13, 2011, 04:14:26 PM
K-Mack: Unless I somehow missed it, you didn't cite Wilkes as having the name, "Colonels."

~ Warren Thompson
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on October 13, 2011, 04:53:41 PM
K-Mack:

I was going to point out Trinity's perch among the winged warriors of Division III football, but you mentioned my beloved Bants separately.

One other quibble then. I don't think Wolverines are dogs.  They are actually from the weasel family.  At least that's what I've read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine). 

I've jokingly referred to Wesley as the Fightin' Ferretts. Ferrets are also weasel kin!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sflzman on October 13, 2011, 06:48:16 PM
I don't really know which board this fits in to the best, but it can go here I guess,

Andy Dick (the comedian) was in Alma last night to premiere his new movie that is coming out, "Division 3, Football's Finest"

Looks like it will be a great (and really funny) movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvaGzofrzEI
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on October 13, 2011, 07:15:13 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on October 13, 2011, 04:53:41 PM
K-Mack:



One other quibble then. I don't think Wolverines are dogs.  They are actually from the weasel family.  At least that's what I've read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine). 

I've jokingly referred to Wesley as the Fightin' Ferretts. Ferrets are also weasel kin!

Whlie Wesley's Wolverines do seem to be weasel kin.  Grove City's have antecedents related to the canine precurser Wolf.  They used to have a wolf-like represenation of the mascot until abandoning any animal representations a few years ago (perhaps at the urging of the biology faculty).

http://www2.gcc.edu/sports/thewolverine.htm
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 13, 2011, 08:23:31 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on October 13, 2011, 04:14:26 PM
K-Mack: Unless I somehow missed it, you didn't cite Wilkes as having the name, "Colonels."

~ Warren Thompson

I figured I had to have missed someone.

I also didn't directly mention FDU-Florham, although "Devils" without the red or blue is in the lede paragraph.

And yes, I've been made aware that a wolf =/= wolverine. Duh. My bad.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 13, 2011, 08:25:51 PM
Quote from: sflzman on October 13, 2011, 06:48:16 PM
I don't really know which board this fits in to the best, but it can go here I guess,

Andy Dick (the comedian) was in Alma last night to premiere his new movie that is coming out, "Division 3, Football's Finest"

Looks like it will be a great (and really funny) movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvaGzofrzEI

Anything can go here!

We heard about that movie a few years back. I'm lukewarm on it because I'm not a big Andy Dick fan, and because I'm curious to see if they portray D-III players as bumbling buffoons. I'll check out the trailer, hopefully it's good. Your recommendation is a start.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on October 13, 2011, 10:36:29 PM
Since Austin College has the only Kangaroo mascot, I guess I need to tell how this came about.  From the book, "100 Years, 100 Yards - The Story of Austin College Football" by Willie Jacobs;

"Somewhere between the 1914 and 1915 seasons, Austin College dubbed their athletic teams the "Kangaroos", and the name stuck through the years.  Although unconfirmed, the story is that the Austin College students, still all male at the time, were known throughout the state for its kangaroo court, a student organization which often wielded a wooden paddle to culprits guilty of campus violations."

There is another story of a newspaper writer who described the Austin College team in his game write-up as being harder to tackle than a bunch of Kangaroos. This occurred later and probably helped fuel the use of the name.

The first live Kangaroo mascot was presented to Austin College in 1922 and was nicknamed "Pat" for Pat Hooks, a fervent sponsor and gentleman who personally financed much of the AC athletic programs for 25 years.  When the mascot Pat died several years later, a full funeral service was conducted by the students and Pat was laid to rest in a grave under what is now the Baker Hall dormitory parking lot. 

There were other live mascots in later years but the mascot became known as Katy the Kangaroo in later years.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: doodlesdad on October 14, 2011, 12:59:40 AM
Cal Lutheran's nickname, Kingsmen, actually has a religious conotation. The college's first president chose it. It really means Christ the King's Men. No "Louie, Louie" there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2011, 04:51:03 AM
Quote from: roocru on October 06, 2011, 06:08:29 PM
Keith, I really enjoyed this week's column.  One of your best in my view!

Thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2011, 04:52:08 AM
Quote from: bleedpurple on October 07, 2011, 08:45:15 PM
Great column Keith.  Really interesting stuff and you drive home a really important point for all D3 fans.  Enjoy the journey!  There is much to treasure each week and each game.  With teams playing on small college campuses all over the country, there is too much good stuff happening to worry about whether the Stagg Bowl is all purple or not.  Even as a loyal follower of UW-W, I am concerned about one thing: enjoying October 8th.

Also appreciate this one.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Jerry Bawcom on October 14, 2011, 11:25:44 AM
I just read the story on Mascots.  It was really interesting.  Fun to hear how some colleges came up with their names.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 15, 2011, 02:16:43 PM
HAHA ! I don't think Wesley knows what to make the wolverine look like.. Looks more lke Wiley Covote!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RedandPurple on October 16, 2011, 12:49:44 PM
Great story Keith. And a very interesting read. It's not DIII, but my dad's high school football team were the Pretzels (Freeport, Illinois).
The team was sponsored by the local pretzel factory hence the name.  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RedandPurple on October 16, 2011, 05:42:20 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 13, 2011, 08:25:51 PM
Quote from: sflzman on October 13, 2011, 06:48:16 PM
I don't really know which board this fits in to the best, but it can go here I guess,

Andy Dick (the comedian) was in Alma last night to premiere his new movie that is coming out, "Division 3, Football's Finest"

Looks like it will be a great (and really funny) movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvaGzofrzEI

Anything can go here!

We heard about that movie a few years back. I'm lukewarm on it because I'm not a big Andy Dick fan, and because I'm curious to see if they portray D-III players as bumbling buffoons. I'll check out the trailer, hopefully it's good. Your recommendation is a start.

Looks more like an Andy Dick movie than a movie about DIII football. I'm going to pass on this one.  8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 17, 2011, 10:02:15 PM
Reposting this here because all my favorite people tend to check this thread.

In short, rather than me compiling a rivalries list, I need to do some more reporting and storytelling.

Post your replies on the rivalries thread (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5290.240) or e-mail me. Thanks.

QuoteHi all,
Doing a little research on Division III rivalries. I've been asking about it in ATN but I'm not asking the question right. In the early pages of this thread are running lists, and we have written about rivalries many times.

For a fresh look at ANY rivalry you want to nominate, can you please tell me a story about the rivalry's greatest (in your opinion) on-the-field moment, and off-the-field moment.

For instance, in the case of R-MC/H-SC, someone might say back in 1978 there was a kickoff return by Macon's Jimmy Whoseewhatsit that clinched the game and ODAC title, where the guy did a backflip after scoring (that story is kind of true). And the best off-field moment could be when those chumpzillas from H-SC broke off their own goalpost after the 100th meeting and threw it in the lake next to the field.

Or it could be off-the-field stories like stealing of the Bronze Turkey or Victory Bell, or a touching moment from the Courage Bowl or Soup Bowl or Secretaries' Cup.

In any case, I need a fresh way to show people how important the rivalries are, and I'd love to hear some stories I haven't heard before, or hear some fresh re-tellings. This will also help me determine how intense these rivalries are by comparison (although Pat or I have been to most of the major ones, even one time is only a limited taste).

Thanks for your input. Will also tweet this, post in ATN and on the ATN board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on October 20, 2011, 12:33:13 AM
Pep wishes his Saxons had a rivalry game but he'd be stretching the truth to say they did. Going way back, Alfred had somewhat of a rivalry going with Buffalo but probably more so for AU than UB. Hobart's pumpkin heads were close to being a rival as the Statesmen-Saxon skirmishes go way back, with several of the 1970s clashes featuring unbeaten squads.

Having heard talk of Alfred State joining the NCAA D3 ranks in a few years, Pep sometimes wonders what might happen should the Pioneers and Saxons meet on the gridiron. Perhaps they could call it the Battle of the Traffic Light...as only Mayberry's lone traffic light separates the two campuses.

On Saxon Warriors!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 20, 2011, 06:29:07 PM
Thanks for today's very nice SCAC feature in ATN, K-Mack.   Appreciate the coverage and the conference has been fun to watch this season.  Too bad it's all coming to an end - why the SAA presidents wouldn't let Trinity and AC stay on as associate members in football (as discussed by TU coach Mohr in an interview earlier in the year) is beyond me.   One trip to Texas annually won't kill anyone's travel budget.   Sigh.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 20, 2011, 08:18:02 PM
It is a shame the SCAC is breaking up after what is turning out to be a banner year. It was a very nice article although there just doesn't appear to be much new on the old and new conferences search for more members. While I think the SAA will eventually get enough football members to become an AQ, I think the SCAC twosome is just out in left field. Short of joining the ASC I just can't imagine where else they can go unless the UAA accepts them. It will be a real shame to add Trinity to an already very competitive Pool B.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on October 21, 2011, 01:04:31 AM
Keith-

Great ATN again. On your "comprehensive" list of title games, there is a chance the Wheaton/NCC game in the CCIW is a game for a share of the title. If NCC beats IWU this weekend and Wheaton beats NCC on Nov 5 (assuming all three teams win out otherwise) you would have a 3 way tie atop the CCIW and it would come down to point differential amongst the 3.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 23, 2011, 09:04:14 PM
Quote from: USee on October 21, 2011, 01:04:31 AM
Keith-

Great ATN again. On your "comprehensive" list of title games, there is a chance the Wheaton/NCC game in the CCIW is a game for a share of the title. If NCC beats IWU this weekend and Wheaton beats NCC on Nov 5 (assuming all three teams win out otherwise) you would have a 3 way tie atop the CCIW and it would come down to point differential amongst the 3.

I specifically said -- or was poorly trying to say -- it was not necessarily comprehensive.

QuoteI've compiled this handy, if not comprehensive, list of games that will greatly impact conference titles.

I find it hard to believe only one conference title game would be Nov. 12 ... that had to be where my list went wrong.

Anyway, yes, there are always those games which look like not-title-games now that could be.

Rowan is not out of it in the NJAC, for example. Their games with Kean and Montclair State could decide things if Cortland took a loss or two somehow.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2011, 01:38:35 PM
Is there a general recruiting board on here? It's not my area of expertise anymore but I get several e-mails a year asking me best practices, and I don't necessarily know how to answer anymore, since I cover in-season stuff and haven't been recruited myself since the pre-internet days.

I still send parents to this board:
Parents of Children looking to play in Division III (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4015.105).

Often the greater knowledge available and the time you guys have to reply beats what any one parent could get from me.

Usually I start by telling people they have to ID a potential major, and then pick a handful of schools on their own, and make direct contact with each school. Most team websites have a recruiting portal.

I know there are some services that do things on behalf of kids, but I have no idea who's good and who's not and who I should refer. I read up on Scoutware (a service for coaches, mostly) to make sure I wasn't bypassing one of our affiliates and recommending someone else to parents.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2011, 07:24:37 PM
ATN Podcast comment...

Rivalry game...

Hardin-Simmons at McMurry on Saturday October 29th, 2pm CDT at Wilford Moore Stadium for the Wilford Moore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilford_Moore) Trophy.

(The north side Cowboys say that you must have at least one win for the series to be a rivalry.  Maybe this will be the win that makes it a rivalry.)

:)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
Copied directly from the handbook, selection criteria:

QuoteSelection Criteria
Primary Criteria. The primary criteria emphasize regional competition (all contests
leading up to NCAA championships); all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in
priority order).
• Win-loss percentage against regional opponents.
• Strength-of-schedule (only contests versus regional competition).
• Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OWP), weighted 2/3.
• Opponents' Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OOWP), weighted 1/3.
... See Appendix J for explanation of OWP and OOWP calculations.
• In-region head-to-head competition.
• In-region results versus common regional opponents.
• In-region results versus regionally ranked teams.
• Opponents are considered ranked once they appear one time in sport's
official rankings.
• Conference postseason contests are included.
• Contests versus provisional and reclassifying members in their
third and fourth years shall count in the primary criteria. Provisional
and reclassifying members shall remain ineligible for rankings and
selections.

Secondary Criteria. If the evaluation of the primary criteria does not result in a
decision, the secondary criteria will be reviewed. All the criteria listed will be evaluated
(not listed in priority order). The secondary criteria introduce results against out-ofregion
Division III and all other opponents including those contests versus opponents
from other classifications (i.e., provisionals, NAIA, NCAA Divisions I and II).
• Out-of-region head-to-head competition.
• Overall Division III win-loss percentage.
• Results versus common non Division III opponents.
• Results versus all Division III ranked teams.
• Overall win-loss percentage.
• Results versus all common opponents.
• Overall DIII Strength of Schedule.
• Should a committee find that evaluation of a team's win-loss percentage during the last
25 percent of the season is applicable (i.e., end of season performance), it may adopt
such criteria with approval from the championships committee.

Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by
the Division III football committee. In order to be considered for selection for Pools B
or C, an institution must play at least 50 percent of its competition against Division III
in-region opponents. Coaches' polls and/or any other outside polls or rankings are not
used as a selection criterion by the football committee for selection purposes.

NEW! Selection Criteria. When all criteria are equal among teams with undefeated
records in the primary criteria, the NCAA Division III Football Committee can use a
team's performance in the previous championship season as criterion.

NEW! Rankings. The total number of rankings have been decreased from four to
two and the first ranking shall not take place prior to November 1. For 2011, the first
ranking is on November 2. For more information, see important dates on page 6.

Educate yo'selves!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 25, 2011, 08:20:28 PM
To put a new twist on the old ranking description, it's now "once ranked, twice ranked."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 25, 2011, 11:54:07 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 25, 2011, 08:13:18 PM
Copied directly from the handbook, selection criteria:

QuoteSelection Criteria
Primary Criteria. The primary criteria emphasize regional competition (all contests
leading up to NCAA championships); all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in
priority order).
• Win-loss percentage against regional opponents.
• Strength-of-schedule (only contests versus regional competition).
• Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OWP), weighted 2/3.
• Opponents' Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OOWP), weighted 1/3.
... See Appendix J for explanation of OWP and OOWP calculations.
• In-region head-to-head competition.
• In-region results versus common regional opponents.
• In-region results versus regionally ranked teams.
• Opponents are considered ranked once they appear one time in sport's
official rankings.
• Conference postseason contests are included.
• Contests versus provisional and reclassifying members in their
third and fourth years shall count in the primary criteria. Provisional
and reclassifying members shall remain ineligible for rankings and
selections.

Secondary Criteria. If the evaluation of the primary criteria does not result in a
decision, the secondary criteria will be reviewed. All the criteria listed will be evaluated
(not listed in priority order). The secondary criteria introduce results against out-ofregion
Division III and all other opponents including those contests versus opponents
from other classifications (i.e., provisionals, NAIA, NCAA Divisions I and II).
• Out-of-region head-to-head competition.
• Overall Division III win-loss percentage.
• Results versus common non Division III opponents.
• Results versus all Division III ranked teams.
• Overall win-loss percentage.
• Results versus all common opponents.
• Overall DIII Strength of Schedule.
• Should a committee find that evaluation of a team's win-loss percentage during the last
25 percent of the season is applicable (i.e., end of season performance), it may adopt
such criteria with approval from the championships committee.

Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by
the Division III football committee. In order to be considered for selection for Pools B
or C, an institution must play at least 50 percent of its competition against Division III
in-region opponents. Coaches' polls and/or any other outside polls or rankings are not
used as a selection criterion by the football committee for selection purposes.

NEW! Selection Criteria. When all criteria are equal among teams with undefeated
records in the primary criteria, the NCAA Division III Football Committee can use a
team's performance in the previous championship season as criterion.

NEW! Rankings. The total number of rankings have been decreased from four to
two and the first ranking shall not take place prior to November 1. For 2011, the first
ranking is on November 2. For more information, see important dates on page 6.

Educate yo'selves!

Maybe you want to send this to the committee members?   :o
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
It is nice that they list the criteria. All I can say, however, is there are enough loopholes in the headline paragraph for each grouping to let the committee do whatever they want.

I am continually surprised by the emphasis on regional results and yet the lack of emphasis on actual region when building the brackets. Focusing on teams playing in region seems to be the best way for the committee to get enough data to come up with a logical way to set up regional brackets. However, by continually violating the regions with the seedings, I no longer see the point in emphasizing "in region" games. The committee is just picking the 4 best national teams, in their opinion, and building around them. Clearly they don't have much use for all the regional results to help set up the brackets, they just want the 4-12 best teams nationally and the related travel distances of every other qualifier.

The more I think about it, the bigger problem I have with this. If the rules are going to continue to specify teams should play "in-region" to get the best consideration, then we shouldn't be moving teams around when seeding the playoffs. Not that I think it matters in the end, it just seems like a logical conclusion to the guidelines. Otherwise, get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation and continue to build brackets based on the assumed best teams. I don't really care what they choose, either method can be hammered or defended, I just want some consistency between the guidelines and the results.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: fightingscots13 on October 26, 2011, 12:25:44 PM
Would be interested in some insight from the ATN Board..  Monmouth College's Alex Tanney threw for five TDs in last Saturday's game and now has 141 career touchdown passes to move within one of the NCAA Division III record.  He's also within a few hundred yards of the NCAA Division III record for career passing yards (with two regular season games to play).

My question - how big of a deal is this in D-III circles?  It doesn't seem to be on d3football.com, as I couldn't find any mention of it.  Your thoughts??
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 12:40:26 PM
Monmouth has twice been the focus of Around the Region columns recently mentioning Tanney, Oct 20 and Oct 5. The headline on the Oct 5 column is "Monmouth more than Tanney". I also feel like Monmouth and Tanney were mentioned in at least one of the Podcasts recently, so it's not exactly like it isn't being recognized.

Certainly they are great achievements for the player, his teamates and coaches, and Monmouth's fans. But there aren't too many "national level" news stories in D3 since it is such a fractured universe. I certainly expect there to be more mentions made when he breaks the record(s), but how many times can you say he is approaching them and keep it interesting?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 26, 2011, 01:01:38 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
It is nice that they list the criteria. All I can say, however, is there are enough loopholes in the headline paragraph for each grouping to let the committee do whatever they want.

I am continually surprised by the emphasis on regional results and yet the lack of emphasis on actual region when building the brackets. Focusing on teams playing in region seems to be the best way for the committee to get enough data to come up with a logical way to set up regional brackets. However, by continually violating the regions with the seedings, I no longer see the point in emphasizing "in region" games. The committee is just picking the 4 best national teams, in their opinion, and building around them. Clearly they don't have much use for all the regional results to help set up the brackets, they just want the 4-12 best teams nationally and the related travel distances of every other qualifier.

The more I think about it, the bigger problem I have with this. If the rules are going to continue to specify teams should play "in-region" to get the best consideration, then we shouldn't be moving teams around when seeding the playoffs. Not that I think it matters in the end, it just seems like a logical conclusion to the guidelines. Otherwise, get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation and continue to build brackets based on the assumed best teams. I don't really care what they choose, either method can be hammered or defended, I just want some consistency between the guidelines and the results.
Respectfully,

We need a systematic evaluation of the teams in the regions by those who know them best.  The Regional Rankings with a National oversight would be necessary in any scenario that involves "wild card" or at-large bids.

When one sees what constitutes "in-region", then one can see the latitude that is built into the bracketing.

In-region games include:

1) Conference games.  In this season and the recent past, these conferences have had multi-region teams:  ECFC, UAA, SCAC (with DePauw and before that, RHIT), Empire 8, NATHC, UMAC...

2) 200-mile radius rule:  A game between teams within a 200 mile radius is considered in-region (a much needed change from about 1994 or 1995.)

3) Evaluation Regions -- There are four in football, 8 in baseball and hoops, etc.

4) Adminstrative Regions -- Four administrative regions in D-III.  This is what allows UMHB and UWL or North Central Redlands or Wesley Husson to be in-region.  This permitted even more games to be considered in-region.  The way that UW-Oshkosh/UMU can work is that we get to see how good those to teams are, but the loss won't hurt UWO too badly.  Also, the admin regions allow other matchups that can be used by coaches to build the resume.

Pool A bids by region:

East: (6)  ECFC, Empire 8, Liberty League, MAC, NEFC, NJAC.
South: (6) ASC, Centenial, ODAC, PAC, SCAC, USA South
North: (6) CCIW, HCAC, MIAA, NATHC, NCAC, OAC
West: (7) IIAC, MIAC, MWC, NWC, SCIAC, UMAC, WIAC

Since the 32 bids are distributed across the nation and given 8 per region, there must be a national aspect to the process;  who best to sit at the national table but representatives from the regions?  MY impression is that most of the time, the national committee tries to do it right.  Pat Coleman or Keith or Gordan Mann can discuss in which selection process the committee has done a "good" job of trying to do it right.

Speaking for baseball, IMHO, the committee has done a very good job of getting the Pool B and C teams in, that deserved it.  Yes, there were 5-7 really deserving teams left on the table when that last pick was made, but I could usually point to the game that the team should not have lost that put them in Pool C.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 27, 2011, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: fightingscots13 on October 26, 2011, 12:25:44 PM
Would be interested in some insight from the ATN Board..  Monmouth College's Alex Tanney threw for five TDs in last Saturday's game and now has 141 career touchdown passes to move within one of the NCAA Division III record.  He's also within a few hundred yards of the NCAA Division III record for career passing yards (with two regular season games to play).

My question - how big of a deal is this in D-III circles?  It doesn't seem to be on d3football.com, as I couldn't find any mention of it.  Your thoughts??

We also talked about it in the Around the Nation podcast this week.

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2011/10/24/atn-podcast-all-about-the-defens/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on October 27, 2011, 03:23:05 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 27, 2011, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: fightingscots13 on October 26, 2011, 12:25:44 PM
Would be interested in some insight from the ATN Board..  Monmouth College's Alex Tanney threw for five TDs in last Saturday's game and now has 141 career touchdown passes to move within one of the NCAA Division III record.  He's also within a few hundred yards of the NCAA Division III record for career passing yards (with two regular season games to play).

My question - how big of a deal is this in D-III circles?  It doesn't seem to be on d3football.com, as I couldn't find any mention of it.  Your thoughts??

We also talked about it in the Around the Nation podcast this week.

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2011/10/24/atn-podcast-all-about-the-defens/

And it's going to be highlighted in Triple Take (http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/category/triple-take/) tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 27, 2011, 07:42:50 PM
Nice job putting together and explaining the regional rankings. A good learning tool for many and a very good refresher for others. I also liked the Nifty 50 list. Twice as many teams makes for twice as many arguments! Thanks for putting it all together.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 27, 2011, 08:09:41 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
...get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation...

In general, I don't get the emphasis on "regional" games for a couple of reasons:

1) Division III doesn't cleanly split into regions, leading to #2...
2) The distinction of what counts as a "regional" game is so arbitrary
3) With only 10 games, it seems ridiculous to throw away results or to value some more than others.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 27, 2011, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 27, 2011, 08:09:41 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
...get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation...

In general, I don't get the emphasis on "regional" games for a couple of reasons:

1) Division III doesn't cleanly split into regions, leading to #2...
2) The distinction of what counts as a "regional" game is so arbitrary

3) With only 10 games, it seems ridiculous to throw away results or to value some more than others.

Respectfully, I think that "In region" is consistent with the other sports.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2011, 01:23:21 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 27, 2011, 10:54:50 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 27, 2011, 08:09:41 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
...get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation...

In general, I don't get the emphasis on "regional" games for a couple of reasons:

1) Division III doesn't cleanly split into regions, leading to #2...
2) The distinction of what counts as a "regional" game is so arbitrary

3) With only 10 games, it seems ridiculous to throw away results or to value some more than others.

Respectfully, I think that "In region" is consistent with the other sports.


From this week's ATN...

Quote
...
Remember, the records above are in-region against D-IIIs, so even though UW-Whitewater is 7-0 overall, they are 5-0 in-region, with Franklin being a non-region game and Campebellsville not being a D-III opponent. The criteria was created to keep D-III teams playing each other, and to keep them from being forced to crisscross the country on limited travel budgets to play the games that will get them into the playoffs. UW-Whitewater's success has worked against it in this regard, as the trouble filling its schedule with D-IIIs hurts come playoff time.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2011, 03:02:51 AM
Quote from: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
It is nice that they list the criteria. All I can say, however, is there are enough loopholes in the headline paragraph for each grouping to let the committee do whatever they want.

I am continually surprised by the emphasis on regional results and yet the lack of emphasis on actual region when building the brackets. Focusing on teams playing in region seems to be the best way for the committee to get enough data to come up with a logical way to set up regional brackets. However, by continually violating the regions with the seedings, I no longer see the point in emphasizing "in region" games. The committee is just picking the 4 best national teams, in their opinion, and building around them. Clearly they don't have much use for all the regional results to help set up the brackets, they just want the 4-12 best teams nationally and the related travel distances of every other qualifier.

The more I think about it, the bigger problem I have with this. If the rules are going to continue to specify teams should play "in-region" to get the best consideration, then we shouldn't be moving teams around when seeding the playoffs. Not that I think it matters in the end, it just seems like a logical conclusion to the guidelines. Otherwise, get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation and continue to build brackets based on the assumed best teams. I don't really care what they choose, either method can be hammered or defended, I just want some consistency between the guidelines and the results.

I see it completely differently.

The emphasis on in-region games I always interpreted for football to mean that a team doesn't have to blow its travel budget searching far and wide for games. D-III doesn't want to get in a situation where teams feel compelled to spend more than they have to get the wins that impress the committee. Play the good teams that are close to you and win and you'll get in.

Once the field is being established though, I think they're absoultely doing the right thing with number one seeds. If a team is within 500 miles of one another, why wouldn't we try to get the Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 teams in the country as top seeds rather than Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 15? I mean I know those numbers are arbitrary, and the East folks argue that they should have their "own" bracket a lot, but I don't agree.

You have to beat the best to make a Stagg Bowl anyway. Why should we penalize a great team because it's in a loaded region just to make a subpar 9-1 team a No. 1 because of where it's located?

It is a national championship tournament.

As for getting rid of the regional distinction entirely, I think for football I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's definitely something of a stretch, as the regions, the in-region games and the four not-regional brackets can confuse people.

I imagine though for other sports the focus on in-region competition makes sense. Basketball teams can play in Christmas tournaments or whatever without damaging their playoff chances. Anyone but me could probably speak more knowledgeable about that though
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 28, 2011, 08:09:08 AM
Keith, Ralph, excellent comments by you both.

After reading your thoughts, I agree that the regional distinction seems to be a criteria established with good intentions; I'm just not sure that it actually achieves the stated goals (again, because the "regions" don't break down very nicely). 

For example, UW-Whitewater would have been better off scheduling a nonconference game against Lewis & Clark (across of the country, but in-region) than the game against Franklin (~300 miles away, but out-of-region).  I know that I'm cherrypicking one example, but I still stand by my comment that I don't think the criteria really helps very much.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 28, 2011, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2011, 03:02:51 AM

The emphasis on in-region games I always interpreted for football to mean that a team doesn't have to blow its travel budget searching far and wide for games. D-III doesn't want to get in a situation where teams feel compelled to spend more than they have to get the wins that impress the committee. Play the good teams that are close to you and win and you'll get in.

I hadn't thought about this. With the number of AQs versus the number of Pool Cs I think it's a bit of an odd argument. I agree that it makes sense, but I don't think there are too many teams dreaming of a run to the playoffs that are going to set up their schedule "in case" they are playing for Pool C consideration. The goal has got to be to win your conference, and you set up your early season non-conference games for a variety of reasons but I would think the most important are 1) historical rivalries 2) schedule holes and 3) whether you believe playing tough games early makes you a better team or getting a good head of steam and confidence helps the most.

Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2011, 03:02:51 AM
Once the field is being established though, I think they're absoultely doing the right thing with number one seeds. If a team is within 500 miles of one another, why wouldn't we try to get the Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 teams in the country as top seeds rather than Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 15? I mean I know those numbers are arbitrary, and the East folks argue that they should have their "own" bracket a lot, but I don't agree.

You have to beat the best to make a Stagg Bowl anyway. Why should we penalize a great team because it's in a loaded region just to make a subpar 9-1 team a No. 1 because of where it's located?

It is a national championship tournament.


Agree completely. Except they emphasize playing regional games so that they can structure the best regions top to bottom. What good is doing that if you are just going to start importing teams when ever convenient? Lets say you build a bracket around UMU and it requires 2 or 3 North teams and 5 or 6 East teams. We have a pretty good idea that UMU belongs at the top, and we know how the other North teams are comparable to UMU since we have some in-region data, but how do we slot the north teams among the East teams since we have limited cross-region data? That second or third north team is just slotted in somewhere on a fun guess. Meanwhile, the 5 or 6 east teams are correctly slotted relative to each other, but someone could be getting hammered on the seedings versus the geographically convenient North teams. Or maybe they are getting completely lucky and getting a North patsy.

I said in my original post that I didn't really care if they either stopped screwing with the regions during seedings or got rid of the regular season emphasis on "in-region". I stand by that. Do one or the other but don't tell me that scheduling in region is important because we need to know who the best teams in the region are for playoff seeding and then build some hybrid mess that has limited crossovers and is built around the top teams in the country. It's just too contradictory.

I think you are right that doing away with the regional focus is a much better and simpler idea. You guys did a great job putting up a speculative set of regional rankings. Can we get a list of the 50 top teams nationally using the same criteria? Tiebreakers wouldn't be wins against RRO, but rather "any" ranked opponent and in-region no longer matters. I would, however, keep the emphasis on D3 games. Might be fun to compare the 40 regional rankings to a top 50 national rankings.


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 28, 2011, 09:34:21 AM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 28, 2011, 08:09:08 AM
Keith, Ralph, excellent comments by you both.

After reading your thoughts, I agree that the regional distinction seems to be a criteria established with good intentions; I'm just not sure that it actually achieves the stated goals (again, because the "regions" don't break down very nicely). 

For example, UW-Whitewater would have been better off scheduling a nonconference game against Lewis & Clark (across of the country, but in-region) than the game against Franklin (~300 miles away, but out-of-region).  I know that I'm cherrypicking one example, but I still stand by my comment that I don't think the criteria really helps very much.

You're exactly correct on the Whitewater example. Unfortunately, the regional boundaries are split up the way they are b/c of the abundance of DIII schools in the north eastern part of the country (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/NCAA_Division_3_football_map.gif). Which makes just about everything west of the mississippi river the West Region.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 28, 2011, 09:37:37 AM
Quote from: jknezek on October 28, 2011, 09:16:19 AM
...how do we slot the north teams among the East teams since we have limited cross-region data? That second or third north team is just slotted in somewhere on a fun guess. Meanwhile, the 5 or 6 east teams are correctly slotted relative to each other, but someone could be getting hammered on the seedings versus the geographically convenient North teams. Or maybe they are getting completely lucky and getting a North patsy.

jknezek,

Fundamentally, I agree that it's difficult to properly slot those teams.

From a practical standpoint...if the teams are seeded slightly "out of order" in one of the sub-brackets, that will correct itself fairly quickly, usually within a round or two.  If the only consequence is that a powerful North team gets seeded behind the top two East teams and loses to UMU in the round of 16 instead of in the quarterfinals, I think that's a relatively small issue.  As Keith said, it is a championship tournament, and if you're one of the top 4-5 contenders, you'll win anyway.

Suppose you have three North teams and five East teams in one region.  Call them N1-N3 and E1-E5.
Suppose that N1-N3 are ALL better than E1-E5, but due to seeding juxtaposition, they are seeded as such:

N1, E1, E2, N2, E3, E4, N3, E5

First round:
N1 def E5
N2 def E3
E2 def E4
N3 def E1

Second round:
N1 def N2
N3 def E2

Quarterfinal:
N1 def N3

Can you really say that any of those teams has been badly wronged in this scenario?  Perhaps N2 got stuck playing N1 a round too early, or N3 got a bit of an "easy ride" to the quarterfinals, but justice is ultimately served in the end.  Yes, some teams might get screwed with a really tough early matchup, but I don't think that any bona-fide national championship contender is going to squabble about that...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 28, 2011, 10:16:34 AM
I agree that it won't affect the outcome in the long term, but over the last decade or so NOTHING has affected the outcome of the tournament. I've also said that the vast majority of teams that make the playoffs are essentially bracket fillers. There is little to no hope of a team ranked lower than 3rd in any region winning.

So essentially we could pair the tournament down to say 12 teams and get the same results we get now. We don't do that because playing in the post-season tournament is a reward in itself. Likewise, the seeding and progression through EACH round is a victory for most teams. Since we aren't limiting the tournament to ONLY teams with a chance to win, there are a ton of symbolic victories along the way, and I believe this is part of the point of the tournament.

Therefore, while I agree with your argument that the vast majority of seedings don't matter in the end, I'd argue that it does matter to the players on the field whether they get shafted by a random cross-region seeding. The tournament is for the players, as are all D3 sports, so we should try and get it right.

Now there are at least two ways to get it "right", which is an inherently subjective term. One is the way it is currently done where we are seeding to get the best 4 teams into the final. I don't have a problem with that. I just have a problem with the in-region emphasis during the season since we aren't sticking with the regions. In your example you put:

"Suppose that N1-N3 are ALL better than E1-E5"

and this where I have a problem. My problem is that the focus on in-region games makes this supposition useless. There is no encouraged cross-over, very little actual cross-over, and no data to use to make this supposition other than "I believe". The whole purpose of creating the emphasis on "in-region" and to create "regional" brackets and "regional" rankings was to provide enough data through h2h, one and twice removed games, to try and limit "I believe".

So, either use the data created by your encouraged "in-region" or get rid of it. You can make a lot of ancillary arguments, but the facts on the ground are as follows:

The NCAA encourages "in-region" games to help with decisions about the post-season. When post-season comes along, in-region becomes a secondary criteria to how do we get the best 4 teams into the final while limiting travel costs. A worthy goal in and of itself, but one largely incompatible with the emphasis on "in-region" during the season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 28, 2011, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 28, 2011, 08:09:08 AM
Keith, Ralph, excellent comments by you both.

After reading your thoughts, I agree that the regional distinction seems to be a criteria established with good intentions; I'm just not sure that it actually achieves the stated goals (again, because the "regions" don't break down very nicely). 

For example, UW-Whitewater would have been better off scheduling a nonconference game against Lewis & Clark (across of the country, but in-region) than the game against Franklin (~300 miles away, but out-of-region).  I know that I'm cherrypicking one example, but I still stand by my comment that I don't think the criteria really helps very much.

Every map has lines. From Pittsburgh you could go five hours to play someone in Philadelphia or an hour to play someone in Ohio. Yet one is in your state and the other is not. You have to draw lines somewhere.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 28, 2011, 10:23:50 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that Division III does things the same for every sport, jknezek, so some things that apply well to sports with large seasons don't necessarily do so for football. The committee seems to counter this in football by going to the secondary criteria more often.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2011, 10:34:32 AM
Thanks for the comments above.

IN-Region emphasis is D-III to cut down on time away from the classroom.

I will cut the UAA some slack!  They are of the same mission and vision.  The WIAC is of the same mission and vision.  The same goes for the NCAC and the SCAC and the new SAA and even the ECFC which wants to offer a "competitive" league for its student-athletes at those peer institutions!

The whole self-assessment that D-III went thru* settled most of the identity issues, or focused on the differences that were not worth breaking up a pretty good thing.

If we stop at Region Championships, and cut the season short by 2 weeks by at most 4 teams sop as to get the students back into the classroom sooner, then this is not an issue.  It is we fans (and instituions and student-athletes) who want a national champion who are bringing up these issues and idiosyncrasies.

(*Please start with Page 1 of the Future of Division III message board for that chronology and discussion.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 28, 2011, 10:37:31 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 28, 2011, 10:23:50 AM
One thing to keep in mind is that Division III does things the same for every sport, jknezek, so some things that apply well to sports with large seasons don't necessarily do so for football. The committee seems to counter this in football by going to the secondary criteria more often.

Interesting. Of course, the most successful people I know don't fall into the trap of saying "because this is how we have always done it." Thank you for providing a forum where these ideas can be discussed and the sites that store the information on which we build our arguments.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 28, 2011, 10:53:11 AM
Well, I think one of the unspoken tenets of Division III is that all sports are treated equitably and no one sport is super-elevated above the rest.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: fightingscots13 on October 28, 2011, 11:35:22 AM
RE:  Tanney conversation - Thanks for the comments and links.  Appreciate the responses.  Someone needs to look at more than the front page of the site... :-[
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 09:32:28 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2011, 03:02:51 AM
Quote from: jknezek on October 26, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
It is nice that they list the criteria. All I can say, however, is there are enough loopholes in the headline paragraph for each grouping to let the committee do whatever they want.

I am continually surprised by the emphasis on regional results and yet the lack of emphasis on actual region when building the brackets. Focusing on teams playing in region seems to be the best way for the committee to get enough data to come up with a logical way to set up regional brackets. However, by continually violating the regions with the seedings, I no longer see the point in emphasizing "in region" games. The committee is just picking the 4 best national teams, in their opinion, and building around them. Clearly they don't have much use for all the regional results to help set up the brackets, they just want the 4-12 best teams nationally and the related travel distances of every other qualifier.

The more I think about it, the bigger problem I have with this. If the rules are going to continue to specify teams should play "in-region" to get the best consideration, then we shouldn't be moving teams around when seeding the playoffs. Not that I think it matters in the end, it just seems like a logical conclusion to the guidelines. Otherwise, get rid of the unneccessary "in-region" designation and continue to build brackets based on the assumed best teams. I don't really care what they choose, either method can be hammered or defended, I just want some consistency between the guidelines and the results.

I see it completely differently.

The emphasis on in-region games I always interpreted for football to mean that a team doesn't have to blow its travel budget searching far and wide for games. D-III doesn't want to get in a situation where teams feel compelled to spend more than they have to get the wins that impress the committee. Play the good teams that are close to you and win and you'll get in.

Once the field is being established though, I think they're absoultely doing the right thing with number one seeds. If a team is within 500 miles of one another, why wouldn't we try to get the Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 teams in the country as top seeds rather than Nos. 1, 3, 4 and 15? I mean I know those numbers are arbitrary, and the East folks argue that they should have their "own" bracket a lot, but I don't agree.

You have to beat the best to make a Stagg Bowl anyway. Why should we penalize a great team because it's in a loaded region just to make a subpar 9-1 team a No. 1 because of where it's located?

It is a national championship tournament.

As for getting rid of the regional distinction entirely, I think for football I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's definitely something of a stretch, as the regions, the in-region games and the four not-regional brackets can confuse people.

I imagine though for other sports the focus on in-region competition makes sense. Basketball teams can play in Christmas tournaments or whatever without damaging their playoff chances. Anyone but me could probably speak more knowledgeable about that though

Exactly. I think this nails it. The regional emphasis encourages teams to play the best competition in the closest proximity. Yet it has enough flexibility to take into account that sometimes an arbitrary definition of what constitutes a region should be flexible enough to recognize when an 'out of region' team is also pretty close (less than 200 miles) and is hence considered 'in region.'

And I think it is absolutely the right move to make sure the best teams get the best seeds. There have been years when 4 or 5 top 10 teams were in the West with 2 in the top 4. To move none of those teams to another region leaves things out of wack for a national playoff. You'll never have a perfectly balanced regions (even the D1 NCAA B-ball Tourney has stronger and weaker regions) but they should do everything they reasonably can to get us close. Building around clear cut #1 seeds is a good start.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 09:56:35 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 28, 2011, 10:16:34 AM
I agree that it won't affect the outcome in the long term, but over the last decade or so NOTHING has affected the outcome of the tournament. I've also said that the vast majority of teams that make the playoffs are essentially bracket fillers. There is little to no hope of a team ranked lower than 3rd in any region winning.

So essentially we could pair the tournament down to say 12 teams and get the same results we get now.


Completely disagree with this statement. Sure some teams get blown out, but plenty of low seeds have made big runs.

In the D3football.com era (13 years) multiple teams ranked outside the top 12 seeds have made significant runs. To name just a few:

1999 PLU - West 7 seed (then the lowest seed in the region)...National Champion
2000 SJU - West 7 seed (lowest seed)...National Runner Up to Mount, lost 10-7
2008 Wheaton - North 6 seed...National Semifinalist
2010 Bethel - West 5 seed (maybe lower??)...National Semifinalist

These are just a couple examples of teams that were outside the top 12 and completely affected the results of entire regions and twice the national championship matchup.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2011, 10:16:38 PM
Great post, hazzben!  +1!

From the South Top 10 Teams board...

IMHO, the best South Region Team, since the new format began in 1999, was considered the "5th best team" in the South in the 2004 playoffs.  Look at how they "filled the bracket".

Quote from: Ralph Turner on July 01, 2007, 07:41:31 PM


1)  2004 UMHB -- (13-2) Did it Ginger Rogers style.  (Refers to the old joke, who was the better dancer...Fred Astaire or Ginger Rogers?  Rogers did everything that Astaire did, backwards and in high heels.)  Was a Pool C bid, back when there were only 3.  Beat #7 Trinity by 29, #3 HSU by 14, #5 W&J by 36 and #1 Mount Union by 3 on the road.  Lost to Elliott's #2 Linfield in the Stagg, 21-28.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 29, 2011, 10:28:27 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 09:56:35 PM

Completely disagree with this statement. Sure some teams get blown out, but plenty of low seeds have made big runs.

In the D3football.com era (13 years) multiple teams ranked outside the top 12 seeds have made significant runs. To name just a few:

1999 PLU - West 7 seed (then the lowest seed in the region)...National Champion
2000 SJU - West 7 seed (lowest seed)...National Runner Up to Mount, lost 10-7
2008 Wheaton - North 6 seed...National Semifinalist
2011 Bethel - West 5 seed (maybe lower??)...National Semifinalist

These are just a couple examples of teams that were outside the top 12 and completely affected the results of entire regions and twice the national championship matchup.
Wheaton was the 7 seed in 2008... they beat Franklin who was a 5 seed in the North final... and UWW was a 5 seed that year and beat 7 seed Wartburg in the West final and went on to be runners up 26-31.

Also... Bethel is already in the national semi-finals this year? When did that happen?  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 29, 2011, 10:16:38 PM
Great post, hazzben!  +1!

From the South Top 10 Teams board...

IMHO, the best South Region Team, since the new format began in 1999, was considered the "5th best team" in the South in the 2004 playoffs.  Look at how they "filled the bracket".

Quote from: Ralph Turner on July 01, 2007, 07:41:31 PM


1)  2004 UMHB -- (13-2) Did it Ginger Rogers style.  (Refers to the old joke, who was the better dancer...Fred Astaire or Ginger Rogers?  Rogers did everything that Astaire did, backwards and in high heels.)  Was a Pool C bid, back when there were only 3.  Beat #7 Trinity by 29, #3 HSU by 14, #5 W&J by 36 and #1 Mount Union by 3 on the road.  Lost to Elliott's #2 Linfield in the Stagg, 21-28.

I had the 04 UMHB team in the back of my head but couldn't be sure what they were seeded.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 10:46:57 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 29, 2011, 10:28:27 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 09:56:35 PM

Completely disagree with this statement. Sure some teams get blown out, but plenty of low seeds have made big runs.

In the D3football.com era (13 years) multiple teams ranked outside the top 12 seeds have made significant runs. To name just a few:

1999 PLU - West 7 seed (then the lowest seed in the region)...National Champion
2000 SJU - West 7 seed (lowest seed)...National Runner Up to Mount, lost 10-7
2008 Wheaton - North 6 seed...National Semifinalist
2011 Bethel - West 5 seed (maybe lower??)...National Semifinalist

These are just a couple examples of teams that were outside the top 12 and completely affected the results of entire regions and twice the national championship matchup.
Wheaton was the 7 seed in 2008... they beat Franklin who was a 5 seed in the North final... and UWW was a 5 seed that year and beat 7 seed Wartburg in the West final and went on to be runners up 26-31.

Also... Bethel is already in the national semi-finals this year? When did that happen?  ;D

Good catch on Wheaton. I wasn't sure if they were 6 or 7 and wasn't sure what Franklin was either. Another perfect example. And the Wartburg - UWW one as well.

As for 2011 Bethel...Maybe that was a prophetic slip up (a guy can dream can't he)!  ;) ;D

I'm guessing there have been a couple examples from the East Region as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 29, 2011, 11:42:36 PM
Quote from: hazzben on October 29, 2011, 09:56:35 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 28, 2011, 10:16:34 AM
I agree that it won't affect the outcome in the long term, but over the last decade or so NOTHING has affected the outcome of the tournament. I've also said that the vast majority of teams that make the playoffs are essentially bracket fillers. There is little to no hope of a team ranked lower than 3rd in any region winning.

So essentially we could pair the tournament down to say 12 teams and get the same results we get now.


Completely disagree with this statement. Sure some teams get blown out, but plenty of low seeds have made big runs.

In the D3football.com era (13 years) multiple teams ranked outside the top 12 seeds have made significant runs. To name just a few:

1999 PLU - West 7 seed (then the lowest seed in the region)...National Champion
2000 SJU - West 7 seed (lowest seed)...National Runner Up to Mount, lost 10-7
2008 Wheaton - North 6 seed...National Semifinalist
2010 Bethel - West 5 seed (maybe lower??)...National Semifinalist

These are just a couple examples of teams that were outside the top 12 and completely affected the results of entire regions and twice the national championship matchup.

When you're wrong, you're wrong. '04 and '08 definitely make this statement wrong:

So essentially we could pair the tournament down to say 12 teams and get the same results we get now.

I stand corrected and appreciate it guys. Thanks! I will say that a decade, however, is 10 years. Pretty sure '99 and '00 would be 11 and 12 championships back. I also wouldn't count Bethel in '10 or Wheaton in '08. Both lost by 3 scores to Mt Union. Their runs, while very nice, didn't affect the end result. UWW as a 5 seed in '08 and UMHB in '04 certainly did.

Not that it matters since they WERE a 5 seed, but UWW was 9-1 that year with a 1 point conference loss to UW-SP who was also 9-1 and the 4 seed (out in round 1). An interesting bracket that year paired seeds 1 and 2 in the West (Willamette and Occidental) in the first round. Monmouth was the 3 seed and the only other undefeated in the bracket, with UWW, UWSP and Aurora all coming in with one loss.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 30, 2011, 12:01:41 AM
How do you 'pair' a tournament down. Yank two teams out at a time?  ;)

I would never ever pare the tournament down, nor insinuate that it's a good thing. The 32-team bracket is perfection for D-3. Every conference that qualifies gets into the tournament. There's drama and conversations for the at-large teams. Even if you have a first-round game against one of the Purple, you get an extra week of practice. Those things are all good.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 30, 2011, 08:41:45 AM
On College Football Final on ESPN they were discussing whether Boise St should play for the championship with their weak schedule compared to the other teams and while both were arguing no, Lou Holtz said something to the effect that if you were going to allow that... that Mount Union and Wisconsin Whitewater win year in and year out, why not let them have a shot.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 30, 2011, 09:12:31 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 30, 2011, 08:41:45 AM
On College Football Final on ESPN they were discussing whether Boise St should play for the championship with their weak schedule compared to the other teams and while both were arguing no, Lou Holtz said something to the effect that if you were going to allow that... that Mount Union and Wisconsin Whitewater win year in and year out, why not let them have a shot.

Is it possible Lou is getting wiser the more senile he gets  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DBQ1965 on October 30, 2011, 08:08:52 PM
Pat ... what is the relationship (if any) between seeding and who gets to host a play-off game ... since hosting (as I understand it) is up to who offers to host a game?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2011, 11:19:30 PM
It is up to who offers to host a game but almost everyone files to host a game. I hope Dubuque did, because you never know how the bracket will look.

Higher seeds host. In the West there is often a little finagling of the first-round matchups because of geography.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 30, 2011, 11:21:28 PM
 Kmack and  his 2 cub reporters at the Wesley game yesterday!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: DBQ1965 on October 31, 2011, 08:31:50 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2011, 11:19:30 PM
It is up to who offers to host a game but almost everyone files to host a game. I hope Dubuque did, because you never know how the bracket will look.

Higher seeds host. In the West there is often a little finagling of the first-round matchups because of geography.

I also hope UD filed to host a playoff game.  That would be worth the drive.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 31, 2011, 12:52:03 PM
Anyone know when the first Regional Rankings come out?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 31, 2011, 01:28:24 PM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 31, 2011, 12:52:03 PM
Anyone know when the first Regional Rankings come out?
November 2nd.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2011, 07:13:29 PM
Was looking back at ATN from this week last year for something else and found this ... relevant to the discussion from a few pages back.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2010/picking-the-top-seeds

I didn't remember how in-depth I went with the East region fans and committee members asking how & why the choose the No. 1 seeds the way they do, but it might be good reading.

Lots of great points made all around, I won't belabor them. Suffice it to say, for football, the in-region focus is odd. But personally, I would still rather have them attempt to competitively balance the bracket within the available parameters than play four separate regional tournaments.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 02, 2011, 09:15:41 PM
Knack,

What's up with you basically not having Wheaton in your top 25 all year? I know you aren't biased because I have seen you rank them higher in the past. Whatbis everyone missing tha you see?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2011, 10:58:34 PM
Quote from: USee on November 02, 2011, 09:15:41 PM
Knack,

What's up with you basically not having Wheaton in your top 25 all year? I know you aren't biased because I have seen you rank them higher in the past. Whatbis everyone missing tha you see?

Knack ... that's got a ring to it.

I had Wheaton ranked until the IWU loss and moved them back in this week. But yeah, in the interim, the resume just wasn't that impressive. Two of the wins were Olivet and North Park, and they'd lost one of their two games against good teams. (UW-P being the other).

The Albion win looks a lot better after Saturday, and Carthage is 5-3. At this point, they've been consistent enough against enough challenging teams to be ranked.

I still think they have no business being ranked ahead of IWU, but I wouldn't be surprised if they beat North Central this weekend. Sorry it's not a more nuanced analysis, like 'I don't think they can run the ball this year' or something, but that's what it was.

Also at about the Week 5 and 6 point there are still a lot of mirages. By Week 9 teams have usually pretty clearly defined who they are.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 02, 2011, 11:15:22 PM
Sorry, iPad typo. It does have a ring to it. I get why you wouldn have them in the top 15 but out of the top 25 made no sense compared to man of the other choices. No worries. If they beat NCC this weekend, do you rank them ahead of IWU?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2011, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: USee on November 02, 2011, 11:15:22 PM
Sorry, iPad typo. It does have a ring to it. I get why you wouldn have them in the top 15 but out of the top 25 made no sense compared to man of the other choices. No worries. If they beat NCC this weekend, do you rank them ahead of IWU?

No, but I'd rank them ahead of NCC. And would rank NCC ahead of IWU. Hey wait, these darn triangles ...

I'd have to take a closer look, and it would depend on Saturdays outcomes. I can't really predetermine. My guess is none of the three would be as high as the top CCIW team normally is.

I tend to go with h2h results until I can't anymore. Right now Kean and Widener have the biggest outlier Ls, but the top-25 h2h results mostly match up.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 03, 2011, 12:33:36 AM
That's why I don't really factor H2H in that much as the entire body of work, because of those darn triangles. Or even worse, if it becomes a rhombus...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 03, 2011, 11:56:24 AM
those darn Rhombus'. I hate it when that happens.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2011, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: smedindy on November 03, 2011, 12:33:36 AM
That's why I don't really factor H2H in that much as the entire body of work, because of those darn triangles. Or even worse, if it becomes a rhombus...

Ignoring h2h in a ranking designed to reveal which team is better than which is not seeing the forest for the trees, IMO.

But yes, the entire body of work is always important. It just better be a darn sexy body for us to ignore an h2h meeting.

(we can talk about Brockport/Kean here, but I kind of like that one liner and would like to leave it at that)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 04, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
North Central's work after Redlands is definitely in the Maggie Gyllenhaall category!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: JT on November 04, 2011, 07:46:37 PM
Hey Keith,

I always dig your take from year-to-year on DIII seniors and the LAST game.  Great job.  I wasn't good enough for college ball, but every time I read your last game articles, I remember the last time I took off the pads.  I remember the smells.  I remember the sounds. I remember the young faces of teammates. I remember going out with a win.  And there's a shoe box with old receiver gloves that still fit.

Good times.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on November 04, 2011, 08:30:11 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
North Central's work after Redlands is definitely in the Maggie Gyllenhaall category!

Maybe even Heather Graham.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2011, 03:30:32 PM
Quote from: JT on November 04, 2011, 07:46:37 PM
Hey Keith,

I always dig your take from year-to-year on DIII seniors and the LAST game.  Great job.  I wasn't good enough for college ball, but every time I read your last game articles, I remember the last time I took off the pads.  I remember the smells.  I remember the sounds. I remember the young faces of teammates. I remember going out with a win.  And there's a shoe box with old receiver gloves that still fit.

Good times.

Appreciate it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2011, 03:31:23 PM
Quote from: HSCTiger74 on November 04, 2011, 08:30:11 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
North Central's work after Redlands is definitely in the Maggie Gyllenhaall category!

Maybe even Heather Graham.  ;)

Oh, you mean it's fine work.

I was trying to figure out which movie MG did first that bombed before she rebounded with a string of 8 good ones.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 06, 2011, 04:02:52 PM
You know there's a way to find out:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0350454/#Actress
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 06, 2011, 10:14:59 PM
 Keith ; I wasn't sure where to put this but figured more would see it here.

This is about Wesley Coach Chip Knapp and his 16 yr olds cardiac arrest on their way to the Walsh/ Wesley game a few weeks ago

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20111106/SPORTS08/111106024/United-by-Nightmare?odyssey=tab 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 08, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
So I've come to the conclusion that I could take a good crack at the playoff field knowing what we know now, since Hobart/Union, Kean/Montclair, the NEFC, Linfield/L&C and the other not-clinched league I'm drawing a blank about are geographically the same.

Before I do it, I wanted to ask anyone who's been reading the boards if it's been done already. I read the Pool C thread but I don't read the entire network of boards.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 08, 2011, 10:19:19 PM
A little chatte on ncac board may be worth a gander
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2011, 10:19:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 08, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
So I've come to the conclusion that I could take a good crack at the playoff field knowing what we know now, since Hobart/Union, Kean/Montclair, the NEFC, Linfield/L&C and the other not-clinched league I'm drawing a blank about are geographically the same.

Before I do it, I wanted to ask anyone who's been reading the boards if it's been done already. I read the Pool C thread but I don't read the entire network of boards.

MAC.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2011, 02:54:10 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 08, 2011, 10:19:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 08, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
So I've come to the conclusion that I could take a good crack at the playoff field knowing what we know now, since Hobart/Union, Kean/Montclair, the NEFC, Linfield/L&C and the other not-clinched league I'm drawing a blank about are geographically the same.

Before I do it, I wanted to ask anyone who's been reading the boards if it's been done already. I read the Pool C thread but I don't read the entire network of boards.

MAC.

Yeah, that's the league I was missing. Assume you meant that and not go read the MAC board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on November 09, 2011, 09:36:07 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 08, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
So I've come to the conclusion that I could take a good crack at the playoff field knowing what we know now, since Hobart/Union, Kean/Montclair, the NEFC, Linfield/L&C and the other not-clinched league I'm drawing a blank about are geographically the same.

Before I do it, I wanted to ask anyone who's been reading the boards if it's been done already. I read the Pool C thread but I don't read the entire network of boards.

Keith, I took a really general glance on the NCAC board that looks something like this:

Texas/WestCoast bracket with UMHB as the top seed, Linfield as #2...
North-ish bracket with UWW as the top seed, UST as the #2....
"Midwest" bracket with UMU as the #1, Wabash, North Central....
"East" bracket with Del Val as the #1, Salisbury as the #2....
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 09, 2011, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on November 09, 2011, 09:36:07 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 08, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
So I've come to the conclusion that I could take a good crack at the playoff field knowing what we know now, since Hobart/Union, Kean/Montclair, the NEFC, Linfield/L&C and the other not-clinched league I'm drawing a blank about are geographically the same.

Before I do it, I wanted to ask anyone who's been reading the boards if it's been done already. I read the Pool C thread but I don't read the entire network of boards.

Keith, I took a really general glance on the NCAC board that looks something like this:

Texas/WestCoast bracket with UMHB as the top seed, Linfield as #2...
North-ish bracket with UWW as the top seed, UST as the #2....
"Midwest" bracket with UMU as the #1, Wabash, North Central....
"East" bracket with Del Val as the #1, Salisbury as the #2....

I started sketching it out last night but I'll save my final take for ATN on Thursday afternoon.

I have 7 East teams and 9 South but JHU, Wesley or Centre vs. Thomas More make for some easy flips to balance things out.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 09, 2011, 09:05:38 PM
And of course chaos will reign on Saturday and you'll have to erase the whiteboard!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: SUADC on November 10, 2011, 10:25:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 09, 2011, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on November 09, 2011, 09:36:07 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 08, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
So I've come to the conclusion that I could take a good crack at the playoff field knowing what we know now, since Hobart/Union, Kean/Montclair, the NEFC, Linfield/L&C and the other not-clinched league I'm drawing a blank about are geographically the same.

Before I do it, I wanted to ask anyone who's been reading the boards if it's been done already. I read the Pool C thread but I don't read the entire network of boards.

Keith, I took a really general glance on the NCAC board that looks something like this:

Texas/WestCoast bracket with UMHB as the top seed, Linfield as #2...
North-ish bracket with UWW as the top seed, UST as the #2....
"Midwest" bracket with UMU as the #1, Wabash, North Central....
"East" bracket with Del Val as the #1, Salisbury as the #2....

I started sketching it out last night but I'll save my final take for ATN on Thursday afternoon.

I have 7 East teams and 9 South but JHU, Wesley or Centre vs. Thomas More make for some easy flips to balance things out.

I can digg it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSC85 on November 10, 2011, 05:37:51 PM
The problem with Thomas More and Centre in the South Region is that they are more than 500 miles from JHU, and Wesley and Salisbury too for that matter.  Both are close to the teams in the North Region. 

I liked your idea of HSC possibly getting a home game.  Both Thomas More and Centre are within 500 miles of HSC.  CNU must go to Salisbury, Wesley or JHU for a bus ride.  As proven last year, HSC could be matched with teams in the Northeast as the Monclaire St game last year proved or it could go as far west as Ohio, as the RMC - Mount Union game demonstrated in 2008.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 10, 2011, 09:37:25 PM
Quote from: HSC85 on November 10, 2011, 05:37:51 PM
The problem with Thomas More and Centre in the South Region is that they are more than 500 miles from JHU, and Wesley and Salisbury too for that matter.  Both are close to the teams in the North Region. 

I liked your idea of HSC possibly getting a home game.  Both Thomas More and Centre are within 500 miles of HSC.  CNU must go to Salisbury, Wesley or JHU for a bus ride.  As proven last year, HSC could be matched with teams in the Northeast as the Monclaire St game last year proved or it could go as far west as Ohio, as the RMC - Mount Union game demonstrated in 2008.

True.

Hampden-Sydney to Centre is under 500 miles. Thomas More I thought was within 500 of Baltimore but its close. I did make a lot of that up just to be different, but I checked some of the ideas first!

Point I was trying to make is that if necessary, they could shift certain teams out of their home regions, which seems to be roughly what you're saying.

It rarely happens where they think way outside the box, but occasionally they surprise us.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 10, 2011, 09:51:09 PM
It's always a balancing act. Does the committee try to balance the brackets and / or balance the travel?

If they don't balance the brackets, then it's theoretically possible that the fifth or sixth best team in the country has a road trip in the second round.

But then, if they do try to balance the brackets to avoid a west log-jam then the top-ranked and unbeaten team in one whole region doesn't get recognized as such even though their SOS is better than the established powers.

As I see it, it's a tournament. You gotta win 'em all to move on - whether it's the first round or the Stagg Bowl. If you grouse about your seeding or your location, then you're halfway to a loss anyway. Just take out the frustration on the field.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2011, 12:30:30 AM
Quote
Cost Consciousness

Redlands at Cal Lutheran; Trinity at Mary Hardin-Baylor; Dubuque at Linfield; McMurry at St. Thomas.

In this case, I tried to keep everyone as close to home as possible, with matchups like CWRU and Mount Union and Benedictine at North Central. But even going cost-conscious on the California and Texas teams left me with two flights. This is harder than it looks. Sending McMurry to Linfield requires an even more costly charter flight, which is why I've avoided it.


Why not Dubuque to St Thomas (312 miles) and McMurry to Linfield. One Flight.  The home team in all scenarios likely wins and two get flown for round #2.  The only chance for a bus ride in the second round would be a McMurry win over Linfield.

Linfield, UMHB and Tommies comprise the football equivalent of a "Bracket of Death!"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: thewaterboy on November 11, 2011, 11:45:18 AM
No Triple Take today?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2011, 12:03:03 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2011, 12:30:30 AM
Quote
Cost Consciousness

Redlands at Cal Lutheran; Trinity at Mary Hardin-Baylor; Dubuque at Linfield; McMurry at St. Thomas.

In this case, I tried to keep everyone as close to home as possible, with matchups like CWRU and Mount Union and Benedictine at North Central. But even going cost-conscious on the California and Texas teams left me with two flights. This is harder than it looks. Sending McMurry to Linfield requires an even more costly charter flight, which is why I've avoided it.


Why not Dubuque to St Thomas (312 miles) and McMurry to Linfield. One Flight.  The home team in all scenarios likely wins and two get flown for round #2.  The only chance for a bus ride in the second round would be a McMurry win over Linfield.

Linfield, UMHB and Tommies comprise the football equivalent of a "Bracket of Death!"

That makes a lot more sense than what I have out there. I'm going to change it.

Triple Take here:
http://bit.ly/vUZkMf

Long week, I just finished my take before lunchtime.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2011, 12:20:29 PM
Thanks for the comments, K-Mack.

With all of the talk about Massey, I went to the D-III Massey board (http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf).

Massey does not disconnect the NESCAC from the rest of D-III.
I have pulled out the Top 15 non-NESCAC D-III schools in the "rest of D-III".

1) UMHB
2) UWW
3) McMurry
4) North Central
5) Wesley

6) Linfield
7) Salisbury
8) UMU
9) Tommies
10) Cal Lutheran

11) Del Valley
12) JHU
13) UW-Oshkosh (which played both UMU and UWW)
14) Redlands
15) Trinity

The "Cost Consciousness Bracket" is a real Bracket of Death!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 12, 2011, 06:06:48 PM
Here's how I see the brackets at the moment... I don't know if any potential games are over 500 miles in the East or North though. The West actually looks fairly normal seed wise... the South is a mess though. The only option I can think of there is swap Mount Union and Johns Hopkins which would save a flight in the 2nd round

East:
1 Mount Union     10-0   OAC champ
2 Delaware Valley 10-0   MAC champ

3 Wesley           9-1   Pool B

4 Kean             9-1   NJAC champ

5 Salisbury        8-1   E8 champ

6 WNEU            10-1   NEFC champ

7 Hobart           7-1   LL champ

8 Norwich          7-3   ECFC champ


North:
1 UW-Whitewater     9-0   WIAC champ
2 Wabash           10-0   NCAC champ
3 North Central     8-1   CCIW champ
4 Franklin          9-1   HCAC champ
5 Illinois Wesleyan 9-1   CCIW Pool C
6 CWRU              9-1   UAA Pool C
7 Albion            6-4   MIAA champ
8 Benedictine       7-3   NAC champ

South:
1 Mary Hardin-Baylor  9-0   ASC champ
2
Johns Hopkins      10-0   CC champ
3
Trinity (TX)       10-0   SCAC champ
4
McMurry             7-2   ASC Pool C
5
Centre              8-1   SCAC Pool C
6 Thomas More         9-1   PAC champ

7 Hampden-Sydney      8-2   ODAC champ

8 Christopher Newport 8-2   USAC champ


1 vs 5 meets 3 vs 4... 2 vs 8 meets 6 vs 7 (looked better before Hampden-Sydney lost and fell down from 5 in the seedings)

West:     
1 St Thomas       10-0   MIAC champ
2 Linfield         8-0   NWC champ

3 Cal Lutheran     7-1   SCIAC champ

4 Dubuque          9-1   IIAC champ

5 Monmouth         9-1   MWC champ

6 St Scholastica  10-0   UMAC champ

7 Redlands         7-1   SCIAC Pool C

8 Illinois College 9-1   MWC Pool C


3 vs 7 meets 2 vs 6 (flight)... 1 vs 5 meets 4 vs 8 (although if St Thomas and Illinois College are within 500 miles (I know it's close but not sure) then 1vs8 and 4vs5
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 12, 2011, 06:44:12 PM
So you think it's IC before Endicott?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 12, 2011, 07:07:00 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 12, 2011, 06:44:12 PM
So you think it's IC before Endicott?
I do have it that way, but I think it's a tough call and certainly could go the other way. That was the last team in on my board. It would create some shuffling if Endicott made it. I think I'd arrange it so they'd be the 7 in the east, Wesley would move to the South as the 4 seed, Thomas More would move to the North as somewhere between a 4-7 seed (probably 6), and Benedictine would move to the West as the 8 seed. Then the West would be 1 vs 8 meeting 4 vs 5 and 2 vs 6 meeting 3 vs 7. The South would be 1 vs 6 meeting 2 vs 5 and 3 vs 8 meeting 4 vs 7 (which looks better than my earlier way)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2011, 07:57:46 PM
Illinois College to St Thomas = 489 miles
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 13, 2011, 11:10:50 AM
I enjoy all the projections and discussion here and elsewhere.

Mount Union to the East as No. 1 even with Del Val?

Kean I think would have to be seeded ahead of Wesley if they were in the same bracket, on h2h.

The flight-heavy bracket is often the bracket of death, Ralph.

How about you getting to see your alma mater in a playoff game!?!? (we think)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 13, 2011, 11:42:16 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2011, 11:10:50 AM
I enjoy all the projections and discussion here and elsewhere.

Mount Union to the East as No. 1 even with Del Val?

Kean I think would have to be seeded ahead of Wesley if they were in the same bracket, on h2h.

The flight-heavy bracket is often the bracket of death, Ralph.

How about you getting to see your alma mater in a playoff game!?!? (we think)

Agreed on Kean/Wesley. If we were seeding that side of the bracket 1-16 instead of two 1-8's I think it would make sense to have Kean a 5 and Wesley 6.

I laid out in the story why Mount Union is still moved over. But it's not Mount Union vs. Delaware Valley, it's St. Thomas vs. Delaware Valley. With the new spelled-out tiebreaker, it makes sense.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 13, 2011, 11:45:43 AM
Let's face it, everyone is going to complain about the brackets:

Basically, if you're in, you have to beat everyone in front of you.

I could say, "Once again geography does in the Little Giants. We always have to play the CCIW and either Mt. Union or Whitewater in the playoffs. Boo-hoo-hoo!"

But to get the title, you gotta beat 'em anyway.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 14, 2011, 11:38:52 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 13, 2011, 11:45:43 AM
Let's face it, everyone is going to complain about the brackets:

Basically, if you're in, you have to beat everyone in front of you.

I could say, "Once again geography does in the Little Giants. We always have to play the CCIW and either Mt. Union or Whitewater in the playoffs. Boo-hoo-hoo!"

But to get the title, you gotta beat 'em anyway.

Eggs. Actly.

To be the man, you gotta beat the man. And while Cal Lutheran, Wabash and a few others have tougher-looking roads, everybody has to go through Mount Union, UW-W, UMHB, Linfield, Wesley or the best MIAC/CCIW team, so there's no real easy road to Salem. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Plus as Pat pointed out at the podcast, not many people saw UW-W coming when they did  (though I famously waffled in that year's surprises and disappointments column but called UW-W Stagg Bowl-worthy) and who knows if we'll see the next new powerhouse coming. This is when the new teams to fear are determined.

You might wish you were on a different side of the bracket, or you might be the new team to fear.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 15, 2011, 12:30:46 AM
Legendary waffling. Belgian almost:

QuoteMcMillan: You can't pick against Linfield, but the road is so stacked against them. Plus, they are one quarterback injury away from coming back to the pack. UW-Whitewater has the beef up front and the offensive firepower to hang with red-hot St. John's and white-hot Linfield, so I'll take the Warhawks just to be different, although all three are Stagg Bowl-worthy.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2011, 06:55:53 PM
Known about this site for a long time but barely ever read it.

http://awfulannouncing.com/pammies/pam-ward-chronicles/

Given that we deal with college football, and occasionally Pam Ward, I thought you guys might appreciate this. It's a weekly rundown of funny quotes from all announcers, not just Pam.

I think I can make this list during the Stagg Bowl ... wait, forget it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 16, 2011, 06:58:59 PM
I love that feature, but having announced some games I know how hard it is to keep your mouth moving straight, and filling during blowouts is a whole 'nuther thang.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2011, 07:40:00 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 16, 2011, 06:58:59 PM
I love that feature, but having announced some games I know how hard it is to keep your mouth moving straight, and filling during blowouts is a whole 'nuther thang.

Oh, same here. I'm sure I say silly stuff, especially since I was never professionally trained. I wish I had the word for the thought I'm trying to describe plenty of times.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 16, 2011, 08:51:27 PM
Try being an engineer, which by default hates language, and trying to broadcast.  No wonder ESPN hasn't called.......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2011, 09:12:28 PM
I think the worst is when you're trying to explain a football concept using the terminology you were taught, but knowing those aren't words that make sense to most listeners.

For example, at R-MC we color coded all the coverages so we could talk freely amongst each other during games. Green was 3 deep Cover 3, White was 4 deep quarters, Orange was quarter-quarter-half, Gold was Cover 2, Red was man, blue was man under, deep help over top, etc. ... with all kinds of other words to describe other concepts, such as automatic switching of crisscrossing receivers, etc.

Same thing with certain blocking patterns, stunts, blitzes, pulling linemen, option plays, screens and route combinations ... a trained football eye recognizes all these things but it takes a really good touch to explain them quickly and clearly without confusing the listener. I really appreciate when a color guy is good at doing that.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2011, 10:21:29 PM
So here's something I stumbled upon a few weeks ago and wanted to sketch out and share. I think a post on another board also inspired me to make it relevant.

I think there's a discussion here about whether academically elite schools can compete, and if yes, at what level.

D-III football schools in the USN&R national liberal arts colleges rankings:
1. Williams
2. Amherst
3. Swarthmore
4. Pomona
5. Middlebury
6T. Bowdoin, Carleton
9. Claremont McKenna
12T. Wash. & Lee, Wesleyan
17. Hamilton
18. Harvey Mudd
19. Grinnell
21T. Bates, Colby
24. Oberlin
25. Macalester
27. Colorado College
29. Scripps
33T. Kenyon Sewanee
37T. Occidental, Trinity (Conn.)
40. Union
42T. Centre, Franklin & Marshall, Pitzer
47T. Dickinson, Gettysburg
49. Denison

(more to come)

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges/spp+50
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 16, 2011, 10:39:01 PM
If the NESCAC can compete for championships in almost every other sport, they can compete for championships in football. Whilst many of the other teams aren't the elite, they do try to put a competitive team out there. I'm concerned about Kenyon, based on what their outgoing coach said.

You need to attract the student athletes that can compete and excel on the field and in the classroom. That's a tricky balance but it's quite possible. And Williams, Trinity and Amherst definitely have good football teams. How good, I don't know, because they don't play anyone else.

W&L is contending on a regular basis. Others have recently. Heck, in 2008, Carleton was 7-3 (5-3 in the MIAC) and lost those three games by seven points total.

But what even these institutions need to realize that football does attract male students.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2011, 12:12:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2011, 10:21:29 PM
So here's something I stumbled upon a few weeks ago and wanted to sketch out and share. I think a post on another board also inspired me to make it relevant.

I think there's a discussion here about whether academically elite schools can compete, and if yes, at what level.

D-III football schools in the USN&R national liberal arts colleges rankings:
1. Williams
2. Amherst
3. Swarthmore
4. Pomona
5. Middlebury
6T. Bowdoin, Carleton
9. Claremont McKenna  3-3 in SCIAC
12T. Wash. & Lee, Wesleyan
17. Hamilton
18. Harvey Mudd  3-3 in SCIAC
19. Grinnell
21T. Bates, Colby
24. Oberlin
25. Macalester
27. Colorado College
29. Scripps  3-3 in SCIAC
33T. Kenyon Sewanee
37T. Occidental  3-3 in SCIAC, Trinity (Conn.)
40. Union  Co-champs
42T. Centre, Franklin & Marshall, Pitzer
47T. Dickinson, Gettysburg
49. Denison

(more to come)

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges/spp+50
I will apply the same standard to this list as I would the ECFC or the UMAC.

They are competing amongst peers.  They win their conference, they get a bid and we see where they go from there.
Looks like they are competing to me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2011, 12:21:09 AM
Smed, wait til you see the next 50:

51. Rhodes
53T, DePauw, St. Lawrence, St. Olaf, Wabash
57T. Wheaton (Ill.), Willamette
60T. Beloit, Lawrence
64T. Austin, Hobart/WS
68T. Earlham, Kalamazoo
71T. Wooster, Illinois Wesleyan, Knox, Lewis & Clark, St. John's, Ursinus
81T. Gustavus Adolphus, Muhlenberg, Puget Sound
85. Millsaps
86T. Allegheny, Augustana, Hendrix, Luther
94T. Cornell, Hampden-Sydney, Hope

LOT of schools that have made the D-III playoffs or win eight games, and even a few past champions, there.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2011, 09:21:51 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 17, 2011, 12:21:09 AM
Smed, wait til you see the next 50:

51. Rhodes
53T, DePauw, St. Lawrence, St. Olaf, Wabash
57T. Wheaton (Ill.), Willamette
60T. Beloit, Lawrence
64T. Austin, Hobart/WS
68T. Earlham, Kalamazoo
71T. Wooster, Illinois Wesleyan, Knox, Lewis & Clark, St. John's, Ursinus
81T. Gustavus Adolphus, Muhlenberg, Puget Sound
85. Millsaps
86T. Allegheny, Augustana, Hendrix, Luther
94T. Cornell, Hampden-Sydney, Hope

LOT of schools that have made the D-III playoffs or win eight games, and even a few past champions, there.
This is the second quintile of football playing schools in D-III.
I say that they are successful.

This is more of the "old D-III vs D-IV" argument.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 17, 2011, 09:33:40 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 17, 2011, 12:21:09 AM
Smed, wait til you see the next 50:

51. Rhodes
53T, DePauw, St. Lawrence, St. Olaf, Wabash
57T. Wheaton (Ill.), Willamette
60T. Beloit, Lawrence
64T. Austin, Hobart/WS
68T. Earlham, Kalamazoo
71T. Wooster, Illinois Wesleyan, Knox, Lewis & Clark, St. John's, Ursinus
81T. Gustavus Adolphus, Muhlenberg, Puget Sound
85. Millsaps
86T. Allegheny, Augustana, Hendrix, Luther
94T. Cornell, Hampden-Sydney, Hope

LOT of schools that have made the D-III playoffs or win eight games, and even a few past champions, there.

I knew what was coming up! (I peeked ahead, and of course we alums know where we're ranked).

Knowing the NCAC like I do - there's not a huge difference between the schools listed on your first list and the second list. There's a 'reputation' issue, which always filters into these rankings. I do know that most all of the NCAC are making an effort to improve football, and to compete as best they can.

The only thing in the way of a school like Kenyon competing in football is itself.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2011, 11:17:03 AM
I just want to mention that, while not on the national rankings, Trinity (TX) is a consistent #1 in USNRW's western regional rankings - for something like 20 years running.   If they would consent to play in the national category (the regional category is their choice, apparently), my feeling is they'd be in the second 50 at least.  Despite what Hendrix' president may think, Trinity does compare quite well with most of the SCAC schools on the list. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2011, 11:28:36 AM
Trinity has been evaluated as a Western Region University.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 17, 2011, 02:33:59 PM
Frank Rossi!!!!

"With that loss of privileges comes a very challenging Round 2 matchup [for Mount Union] (either Centre or Hampden-Sydney) and Round 3 matchup (likely either Wabash or Dubuque).

No NCC?? Interesting!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 17, 2011, 02:53:00 PM
Ask me which I'm more proud of... W&L's place on this list or their recent football improvement... it's not football! That being said, I do think, especially in football where you have such large squads, there is a correllation between moving down the list and football prowess. It is hard to recruit enough kids to pull a full roster for the schools at the top of the list. On the other hand, it is a great hook for the kids who can cut the grade to tell them they are going to a school at the top of that list!

Does that mean I don't think the schools can compete? I'd put W&L in a game against anyone in the country ranked 10 or lower on D3football.com. They might not win, but they'd be competitive more than not (2 score or less game). I wouldn't say W&L would be competitive with the cream of the D3 football crop. Exceptions can be made, JHU (while not on the list because they would fall on a different list) has had at least one excellent tournament and may have another.

It all depends on how you define "compete."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2011, 03:23:46 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on November 17, 2011, 02:33:59 PM
Frank Rossi!!!!

"With that loss of privileges comes a very challenging Round 2 matchup [for Mount Union] (either Centre or Hampden-Sydney) and Round 3 matchup (likely either Wabash or Dubuque).

No NCC?? Interesting!!

I found it interesting that he thinks Centre (or H-S) would present MUC a challenge.  Seriously?  I've seen Centre, they're a good team but to say they'd challenge MUC, even one that's limping a bit, seems a stretch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 17, 2011, 04:06:36 PM
I read and thought the same thing. My Triple Take second-round score for the Mount Union game won't reflect it being a challenge.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 17, 2011, 04:26:10 PM
Having seen both teams play, I've already used the analogy of a snowball's chance in the tropics...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 17, 2011, 06:16:55 PM
As a MTU guy, the only game in region that scares me is the Regional Final against NCC.  The CCIW teams play a physical brand of football that won't be intimidated by the Mount defense.  Wabash might be really good, but they play no one and therefore I can't imagine them being prepared for a game against Mount.  And besides, LK isn't losing a playoff game to his nephew....... 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 17, 2011, 07:18:14 PM
HSCoach:

A) Witt isn't "no one".
B) If they play Mt. Union they definitely will have played a team you call "someone" - North Central.
C) Any playoff team should be considered "someone"
D) The family motivation could work both ways, ya know...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
HScoach and smedindy,

NCC has every intention of preventing a family crisis for uncle and nephew! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bashbrother on November 17, 2011, 08:52:15 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
HScoach and smedindy,

NCC has every intention of preventing a family crisis for uncle and nephew! ;D

That is so thoughtful  ;)  One of ER's stated goals in moving from Coe to Wabash... was getting to see Family more.   He and his team are pretty motivated.  8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 17, 2011, 10:23:42 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
HScoach and smedindy,

NCC has every intention of preventing a family crisis for uncle and nephew! ;D

First things first, but that second round matchup will be a fun one. Unfortunately, I have plans already to drive to Key West that day, so thank goodness for internet phones!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 20, 2011, 07:18:14 AM
Quote from: smedindy on November 17, 2011, 07:18:14 PM
HSCoach:

A) Witt isn't "no one".
B) If they play Mt. Union they definitely will have played a team you call "someone" - North Central.
C) Any playoff team should be considered "someone"
D) The family motivation could work both ways, ya know...

A) Ehh, they weren't exactly someone either. I wasn't real convinced with their body of work this year. But the real problem is that no one else Wabash played is nearly as good as an unranked Wittenberg team.
B) Can't argue that. Beating NCC would be a major win and I'd have to seriously re-evaluate.
C) Disagree. There are some very average teams in the field by extension of the NCAA playoff policy on equal access for conference champs. I love the policy, but some of these playoff teams wouldn't finish in the top half of the strongest 5-6 conferences in the country. Wabash's first rd opponent would be one such team, IMO.
D) Absolutely true. That would be an intriguing matchup as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 20, 2011, 12:18:07 PM
It's all dependent on what you define as someone. To me, a conference champ is 'someone' - they won their league and that is an accomplishment.

I bet IC will replace Monmouth as top dog of the MWC and when their QB is a junior and senior won't be an easy out.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2011, 07:33:41 PM
QuoteC) Any playoff team should be considered "someone"

Well yes ... and no. It's fairly standard knowledge around here that the 8-2 teams from tough conferences would top 9-1 and 10-0 teams from less-tough conferences, and St. John Fisher did nothing to dispel that notion on Saturday.

They way you said that was an "in theory" thing.

You might be right about IC and Michael Bates though.

Love that there's conversation on this board.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2011, 08:38:50 PM
I'm sure I didn't say there were 58 D-III teams in Pennsylvania, but I'm also sure I did say that quote at the end of this story ... and a lot of the other ones. Interesting stuff:

Story from the angle of why all the D-III champions are from Midwest and Northeast (and there's an answer):
http://www.newsregister.com/article?articleTitle=the+great+divide--1321686447--2073--home-news

Will add to What We're Reading if not already there.

This could probably lead to a longer ATN board discussion. Will somebody ever break the geographic stronghold? Doesn't Mount Union sorta skew the results? Am I just making up questions right now to see if you're still reading?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2011, 08:48:39 PM
Keith, 8-2 teams from power conferences are 'someone' but so are playoff teams because they're conference champs. At least that's how I see it.

I also don't think anyone needs to be smug or elitist in D-3 about the company they keep. Look at the MIAA in the 90's compared to today. That can happen to another 'power' conference, too...

(In theory!!!!!  ;) )
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 21, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 21, 2011, 08:48:39 PM
Keith, 8-2 teams from power conferences are 'someone' but so are playoff teams because they're conference champs. At least that's how I see it.

I also don't think anyone needs to be smug or elitist in D-3 about the company they keep. Look at the MIAA in the 90's compared to today. That can happen to another 'power' conference, too...

(In theory!!!!!  ;) )

I followed what you were saying, hence the "yes ... and no."

In relation to the actual discussion that these comments are in reference to, we were talking about a Mount Union guy saying Wabash had played no one and didn't scare him, and your reply was everyone that makes the playoffs is a somebody.

For Year in Review columns, yes, they are. In a discussion about teams that worry a Mount Union fan, Benedictine, Albion, St. Scholastica, Norwich and WNEC aren't somebody just because they earned their way into the 32.

On one hand we shouldn't down their accomplishments. On the other hand, be realistic.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2011, 09:25:53 PM
10-4. I think we're in agreement for the most part. From a Purple Fan perspective, yeah those first round games don't make them quake in their boots, but for the majority of playoff home teams, you can't look past them.

And just for fun, I looked at the D-3 'least likely results' on Massey. #1 was RPI beating Hobart. #7 was Redlands over North Central, which looks like an upset in the rear-view mirror based on Redland's struggles to win in the SCIAC. But when two playoff teams produce one of the 'least-likely' results, then this year didn't have any *wow* surprises at the end. I think we all thought that Dubuque beating Augie was one of those, but it didn't turn out that way at all.



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 22, 2011, 01:08:28 AM
I finally watched the trailer for the Andy Dick D-III movie.

Although it's bound to be filled with lots of jokes at our expense, I actually laughed during the trailer. Maybe it'll be pretty good, as a movie, if not so much as a representation of what it's actually like.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/156eb7f056/division-iii-football-s-finest-official-unofficial-trailer
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 22, 2011, 02:08:17 AM
Finally watched this week's D3Reports and highlight packages. Really happy with them, I love getting the takes right from on site and the highlights were well done too.

The North Central guys red-dyed beards were a little much, but the interviews were a nice touch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 22, 2011, 10:12:27 AM
@ Smedindy & K-Mack

I think we're all saying very similar things.

I'm not trying to take anything away from a team that's won a conference championship. In that sense, St. Scholastica was definitely a "somebody." And a very cool story when you consider they've only been around for four years. But winning the UMAC just isn't the same as coming in 2nd or even 3rd in some of the other conferences right in the same region (MIAC, IIAC, WIAC, CCIW).

I think we can say this without taking anything away from the CSS's of the world. They are conference champs and playoff participants. Kudos to them, both are great accomplishments. Yet I'd still argue that UWO, Bethel, St. Olaf, Wartburg, Wheaton, etc. would be tougher outs and a victory over them (despite a more deficient record than CSS in each case) is more impressive.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 05, 2011, 06:56:10 PM
Just learned that Paul Hewitt is a St. John Fisher grad. Puts him up there with the Van Gundys of Castleton and the Bo Ryan of UW-P and the other gabillion D-III connections.

Once we had a thread going and it was my goal to start the organized alumni list. Someday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 07, 2011, 02:18:02 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 14, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.

Again I revisit this. Again I'd like to refer someone to it and I can't find the thread. Perhaps it was a figment of my imagination. Carry on.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on December 07, 2011, 03:43:18 PM
In 2 years around here I can't recall that thread. I'd be interested to read the thread because I have no idea how you could make that argument. We don't do promotion/relegation in the U.S. at higher levels of sports. Simply being historically good at something, so long as you stay within the rules, isn't what I would consider an unfair advantage over a universe of participants.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 07, 2011, 03:58:23 PM
It was a thread, K-Mack ain't that crazy yet, i think.   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2011, 09:59:09 PM
I remember the thread.

UMU could not move up because:

1) they sponsor more sports in D-III than they could support in D-II.
2) the entire program does not perform at the football level in other sports.
3) the funding for moving to D-II without cutting sports would be prohibitive.
4) the dynamics of the number of athletes that will be participating in football, with 36 full scholarship equivalents in D-II, changes from the 150 participants in the D-III model.  The financial impact to the school would be incredible, especially as a private school in the GLIAC with its large number of public schools.
5) If they join the GLIAC which covers all of the other UMU sports, where do (M&W) Lacrosse compete?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 07, 2011, 10:01:33 PM
And they fit, as a school and as an athletics program as a whole, in the OAC. That is the key. Unlike D-1 (so it seems), conferences are made by schools desiring similar company, geographically and / or in mission.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on December 07, 2011, 10:25:54 PM
And lets not forget the incredibly obvious... having a championship D3 program is a great hook for getting 150 or so men on campus. Given the size of the school, that is a fairly large percentage of the student body. Sure helps to have a really good hook for getting those rears in the seats and paying the bills.

While I don't put a whole lot of credence on ranking, UMU ranks a very respectable but not outstanding #10 out of about 75 ranked schools in the US News Midwest Regional College Rankings. That is behind some of their competition for bodies, but obviously well ahead of most of it. Of course, a growing number of schools refuse to be ranked, including some that fall in the same category of UMU and are truly outstanding, as well as the fact that the Regional College Rankings are different from the Regional University Rankings, Regional Liberal Arts Rankings, National... well, you get the point. In other words, 10 of 75 doesn't even begin to describe the school versus all the possible competition for students, hence my reluctance to use rankings.

However, for our purposes, having an outstanding football team is a good sales pitch when lining up against some of the schools that fall higher up the list for athletes, and a nice scholastic home for an athlete looking to move up a few schools with the help of his h.s. game tape. Moving to D2, and possibly not having the same success, plus competing for athletes against state schools, seems like a really bad trade-off.

Strategically, I think UMU is right where they want to be to leverage the outstanding success of the program for the campus.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 07, 2011, 10:37:57 PM
Maybe it's time to get rid of the ncaa rule that says you can't just move to D-1 or D-2 in just one sport.  Johns Hopkins didn't manage to get out of the first round despite having a d-1 lacrosse program that was grandfathered in.  Mount could play in the Missouri Valley which has a number of football-only members. 

I don't care if Mount moves up or not, but it seems  our system makes it unnecessarily hard for them to do so if they wanted to. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 07, 2011, 11:32:03 PM
Why would they want to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

Why would D-3 encourage them to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

The MVC is in no way a fit for Mt. Union, in ANY aspect. I can't see any congruence between Youngstown State, Western Illinois, and Mt. Union. Not in mission, vision, student bodies or any other aspect.

This isn't D-1...this is D-3. This is OURS! And Mt. Union is like Hiram is like Linfield is like Macalester is.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 08, 2011, 12:19:03 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 07, 2011, 11:32:03 PM
Why would they want to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

Why would D-3 encourage them to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

The MVC is in no way a fit for Mt. Union, in ANY aspect. I can't see any congruence between Youngstown State, Western Illinois, and Mt. Union. Not in mission, vision, student bodies or any other aspect.

This isn't D-1...this is D-3. This is OURS! And Mt. Union is like Hiram is like Linfield is like Macalester is.


What about football?     Why wouldn't they want to seek better competition in football?  Whitewater changed nothing about their mission or philosophy when they scheduled d2 St. Cloud State in 2007.  They lost, got better and went on to win the d3 title.  I don't think you get very much value from a blowout.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 08, 2011, 05:58:32 AM
Quote from: AO on December 08, 2011, 12:19:03 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 07, 2011, 11:32:03 PM
Why would they want to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

Why would D-3 encourage them to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

The MVC is in no way a fit for Mt. Union, in ANY aspect. I can't see any congruence between Youngstown State, Western Illinois, and Mt. Union. Not in mission, vision, student bodies or any other aspect.

This isn't D-1...this is D-3. This is OURS! And Mt. Union is like Hiram is like Linfield is like Macalester is.


What about football?     Why wouldn't they want to seek better competition in football?  Whitewater changed nothing about their mission or philosophy when they scheduled d2 St. Cloud State in 2007.  They lost, got better and went on to win the d3 title.  I don't think you get very much value from a blowout.

Mount Union only has one non-conference game a year (play in a 10 team conference).  Why would a higher division school want to play MU?  If they win, they were supposed to, but if they lose, there is a lot of explaining to do.

MU's JV used to play Ashland's JV team and beat them.  Until Ashland's HC decided that it wasn't good for their recruiting efforts and made sure to dress some varsity players the last time they played to ensure a victory.

MU has a hard enough time finding a D3 opponent for that non-conf. game, I doubt they would find any higher division teams wanting to play them.  Walsh and Malone are close enough, are former NAIA schools moving to NCAA D2, and they want nothing to do with a game vs. the Raiders.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2011, 09:52:40 AM
Quote from: AO on December 08, 2011, 12:19:03 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 07, 2011, 11:32:03 PM
Why would they want to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

Why would D-3 encourage them to? They are D-3 in every way, shape and form.

The MVC is in no way a fit for Mt. Union, in ANY aspect. I can't see any congruence between Youngstown State, Western Illinois, and Mt. Union. Not in mission, vision, student bodies or any other aspect.

This isn't D-1...this is D-3. This is OURS! And Mt. Union is like Hiram is like Linfield is like Macalester is.


What about football?     Why wouldn't they want to seek better competition in football?  Whitewater changed nothing about their mission or philosophy when they scheduled d2 St. Cloud State in 2007.  They lost, got better and went on to win the d3 title.  I don't think you get very much value from a blowout.
The goal for UMU is to win the D3 championship.

The goal of the non-conference game is to find an opponent who will give you help in the criteria that are used to determine home field advantaege thru the playoffs:

We see efforts to have quality non-conference games out in the "orphan" conferences in the west, the ASC, the SCIAC and the NWC.

Linfield, Willamette, Redlands, Cal Lutheran, ETBU, UMHB, HSU... even Wesley...

Those teams are stepping up to the plate to fill the schedule with quality non-conference games by traveling everywhere they can find game.

We also see it in some of the WIAC schools, the IIAC, the MIAC,  and the CCIW to a degree.

MY "beef" with the CCIW is that they get the props (and OWP/OOWP) for beating up on the "weaker" sisters in the NATHC, just because it is a cost-effective, closer, in-region opponent, that also needs in-region non-conference games.

MUC/UMU has played anyone who wanted to play them.
I wish the ASC had opponents like that that would boost our OWP/OOWP
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 09, 2011, 04:10:34 PM
"Better Competiton?"

1. The OAC is amongst the top-3 D-3 conferences in the nation.
2. Having just one non-conference game, at the beginning of the season (weeks 1 and 2) constrains the scheduling process.
3. They gain nothing from beating a mediocre D-2 or even a non-scholarship D-1AA.

In the universe of all college football, Mt. Union is currently ranked #233 in Massey. Akron is ranked #232. You think Akron's gonna schedule Mt. Union? What would that prove, to either Mt. Union or Akron? I'd say maybe schedule Dayton (#290) but Dayton had no bye weeks in their 11-game schedule. And again, what does that really prove? Dayton is ranked around where Kean and Cortland State are.

Plus, some schools have travel restrictions based on budgets.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 09, 2011, 06:12:51 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2011, 04:10:34 PM
"Better Competiton?"

1. The OAC is amongst the top-3 D-3 conferences in the nation.
2. Having just one non-conference game, at the beginning of the season (weeks 1 and 2) constrains the scheduling process.
3. They gain nothing from beating a mediocre D-2 or even a non-scholarship D-1AA.

In the universe of all college football, Mt. Union is currently ranked #233 in Massey. Akron is ranked #232. You think Akron's gonna schedule Mt. Union? What would that prove, to either Mt. Union or Akron? I'd say maybe schedule Dayton (#290) but Dayton had no bye weeks in their 11-game schedule. And again, what does that really prove? Dayton is ranked around where Kean and Cortland State are.

Plus, some schools have travel restrictions based on budgets.
Yes, better competition.  I'm not just talking about picking a different non-conference opponent, I'm talking about switching divisions.  If the NCAA didn't make it so hard to do, Mount might have done it a while ago.  Better games, more money, more prestige for the school. 

Maybe if Mount could just some better playoff competition in the first couple rounds?   Maybe throw some d2 and fcs teams in a different playoff system?  Football is a sport with very few contests and using so many of those contests to play vastly inferior competition isn't really what's best for the players from Mount.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 09, 2011, 07:23:42 PM
Again, Mt. Union is Division III. They want to be in Division III. It makes no sense to cobble together a half-baked short-sighted playoff system for one team that in the future may not be the behemoth they are now.

They would NOT have moved. The OAC is their conference, Division III is their division for all of their athletics teams. ALL of them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 10, 2011, 06:56:21 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2011, 07:23:42 PM
Again, Mt. Union is Division III. They want to be in Division III. It makes no sense to cobble together a half-baked short-sighted playoff system for one team that in the future may not be the behemoth they are now.

They would NOT have moved. The OAC is their conference, Division III is their division for all of their athletics teams. ALL of them.
Tell the rest of the OAC teams 20 years ago that Mount can't possibly be a behemoth forever, right?

DIII does work well for the rest of their teams, true.  doesn't mean that's where the football teams finds consistent competition.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 10, 2011, 07:03:47 PM
Kenyon didn't win the D-3 swimming title this past year. Things come and go. Mt. Union is concerned with their entire athletics program, not just football. That's the D-3 way and the way it should be. They fit in D-3 and the OAC.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 11, 2011, 01:01:47 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 10, 2011, 07:03:47 PM
Kenyon didn't win the D-3 swimming title this past year. Things come and go. Mt. Union is concerned with their entire athletics program, not just football. That's the D-3 way and the way it should be. They fit in D-3 and the OAC.
Do you really fit in when you've only lost one conference game since '95? The way it should be?  Do you also demand that the cleveland browns support a women's volleyball team and play in the league that the volleyball team is capable of playing in?

I'm not saying they should be forced to leave the conference in football, just that the ncaa shouldn't make it so hard to do if they wanted to just find a more competitive home league/division for the football program.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 11, 2011, 03:01:57 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 07, 2011, 10:25:54 PM
And lets not forget the incredibly obvious... having a championship D3 program is a great hook for getting 150 or so men on campus. Given the size of the school, that is a fairly large percentage of the student body. Sure helps to have a really good hook for getting those rears in the seats and paying the bills.

While I don't put a whole lot of credence on ranking, UMU ranks a very respectable but not outstanding #10 out of about 75 ranked schools in the US News Midwest Regional College Rankings. That is behind some of their competition for bodies, but obviously well ahead of most of it. Of course, a growing number of schools refuse to be ranked, including some that fall in the same category of UMU and are truly outstanding, as well as the fact that the Regional College Rankings are different from the Regional University Rankings, Regional Liberal Arts Rankings, National... well, you get the point. In other words, 10 of 75 doesn't even begin to describe the school versus all the possible competition for students, hence my reluctance to use rankings.

However, for our purposes, having an outstanding football team is a good sales pitch when lining up against some of the schools that fall higher up the list for athletes, and a nice scholastic home for an athlete looking to move up a few schools with the help of his h.s. game tape. Moving to D2, and possibly not having the same success, plus competing for athletes against state schools, seems like a really bad trade-off.

Strategically, I think UMU is right where they want to be to leverage the outstanding success of the program for the campus.

Yes ... I don't know if you read the Ashley Beck column that made the rounds on Twitter this week. As much as she resents Mount Union being known for football, being able to attract those students and attention probably benefits her educational opportunity quite a bit.

Re: AO's last point. I've never heard anybody from Mount Union say they wanted to find a more competitive home. It's always other people who want to get rid of them and have a chance to win championships that want to push them off to D2.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 11, 2011, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 11, 2011, 03:01:57 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 07, 2011, 10:25:54 PM
And lets not forget the incredibly obvious... having a championship D3 program is a great hook for getting 150 or so men on campus. Given the size of the school, that is a fairly large percentage of the student body. Sure helps to have a really good hook for getting those rears in the seats and paying the bills.

While I don't put a whole lot of credence on ranking, UMU ranks a very respectable but not outstanding #10 out of about 75 ranked schools in the US News Midwest Regional College Rankings. That is behind some of their competition for bodies, but obviously well ahead of most of it. Of course, a growing number of schools refuse to be ranked, including some that fall in the same category of UMU and are truly outstanding, as well as the fact that the Regional College Rankings are different from the Regional University Rankings, Regional Liberal Arts Rankings, National... well, you get the point. In other words, 10 of 75 doesn't even begin to describe the school versus all the possible competition for students, hence my reluctance to use rankings.

However, for our purposes, having an outstanding football team is a good sales pitch when lining up against some of the schools that fall higher up the list for athletes, and a nice scholastic home for an athlete looking to move up a few schools with the help of his h.s. game tape. Moving to D2, and possibly not having the same success, plus competing for athletes against state schools, seems like a really bad trade-off.

Strategically, I think UMU is right where they want to be to leverage the outstanding success of the program for the campus.

Yes ... I don't know if you read the Ashley Beck column that made the rounds on Twitter this week. As much as she resents Mount Union being known for football, being able to attract those students and attention probably benefits her educational opportunity quite a bit.

Re: AO's last point. I've never heard anybody from Mount Union say they wanted to find a more competitive home. It's always other people who want to get rid of them and have a chance to win championships that want to push them off to D2.

Tried to go to umudynamo.com and got this message:

NOTICE: This domain name expired on 12/09/2011 and is pending renewal or deletion.

Interesting due to the story by Ms. Beck this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 11, 2011, 01:21:49 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 11, 2011, 03:01:57 AM

Re: AO's last point. I've never heard anybody from Mount Union say they wanted to find a more competitive home. It's always other people who want to get rid of them and have a chance to win championships that want to push them off to D2.
Maybe they would be talking about moving up if my ideas were implemented and all they had to do was check off a box before the season to pick between divisions.  They wouldn't have to start giving out scholarships if they didn't want to, making it easier to check the D-3 box the very next season if they weren't pleased with the higher divisions.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 11, 2011, 01:29:17 PM
Do you know how insanely difficult it would be to schedule in that scenario? Football schedules are two-to-four year deals, plus you'd be dynamiting the entire OAC schedule just for your misguided notion that Mt. Union would ever want to bolt up a division.

Again, they ARE D-3. Period. Paragraph. No one said Kenyon's swim team should be booted up to D-1. But what happened is eventually Denison caught them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 11, 2011, 04:00:54 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2011, 01:29:17 PM
Do you know how insanely difficult it would be to schedule in that scenario? Football schedules are two-to-four year deals, plus you'd be dynamiting the entire OAC schedule just for your misguided notion that Mt. Union would ever want to bolt up a division.

Again, they ARE D-3. Period. Paragraph. No one said Kenyon's swim team should be booted up to D-1. But what happened is eventually Denison caught them.
Under a different system maybe schedules wouldn't be determined 4 years in advance.  Maybe you could choose to play in the same conference but a different post-season tournament if you were able to qualify against some of the other independent teams.  Works better with basketball, but it would be possible for football. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Raider 68 on December 11, 2011, 04:58:04 PM
Pat,

Please check your PM! :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2011, 04:00:54 PM

Under a different system maybe schedules wouldn't be determined 4 years in advance.  Maybe you could choose to play in the same conference but a different post-season tournament if you were able to qualify against some of the other independent teams.

... and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Or how about about we set up the world so my kids will eat food and pump out gold bars so I can afford to send them to one of these fine institutions in 20 years? Something tells me the universe isn't going to rearrange itself just because I have a beef. Completely ludicrous. You are talking about totally revamping the category system based on the long-term success of one program in one sport. It hardly makes sense. Especially given the fact that UMU perfectly fits into their conference with like schools and into D3 with a large universe of similar schools. The only problem you have with them is they succeed. I don't know about you, but I try and celebrate success and make it an example, not point to and yell about how they should get out of someone else's way. But to each his own I guess.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 11, 2011, 08:38:29 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2011, 04:00:54 PM

Under a different system maybe schedules wouldn't be determined 4 years in advance.  Maybe you could choose to play in the same conference but a different post-season tournament if you were able to qualify against some of the other independent teams.

... and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Or how about about we set up the world so my kids will eat food and pump out gold bars so I can afford to send them to one of these fine institutions in 20 years? Something tells me the universe isn't going to rearrange itself just because I have a beef. Completely ludicrous. You are talking about totally revamping the category system based on the long-term success of one program in one sport. It hardly makes sense. Especially given the fact that UMU perfectly fits into their conference with like schools and into D3 with a large universe of similar schools. The only problem you have with them is they succeed. I don't know about you, but I try and celebrate success and make it an example, not point to and yell about how they should get out of someone else's way. But to each his own I guess.
again, I'm not knocking Mount.  Just pointing out a few odd things I see about the NCAA policies.  The football team does not fit in competitively with the OAC, the rest of the teams probably do, but I couldn't care less.  Many football teams have gotten along just fine without a conference.  This isn't complicated, if the players on the field are talented enough to play games against teams in the upper division, why not play in the upper division?  Let the kids play to their full potential and reap the rewards of that effort.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 11, 2011, 09:06:01 PM
See you don't care about the other sports. Mt. Union cares about the other sports, and the OAC as a whole. They'd never move, and the OAC doesn't want them to move. Football is not the be all or end all.

They are fulfilling their potential. How could they not be?

And you DO need a conference. Do you not understand scheduling? Yeesh.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 11, 2011, 10:04:34 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2011, 09:06:01 PM
See you don't care about the other sports. Mt. Union cares about the other sports, and the OAC as a whole. They'd never move, and the OAC doesn't want them to move. Football is not the be all or end all.

They are fulfilling their potential. How could they not be?

And you DO need a conference. Do you not understand scheduling? Yeesh.
They'd get better by playing better competition every week, rather than just the upcoming week.  Especially in a sport like football, you can't replicate that sort of game experience against better competition.  --one of the reasons wesley and St. Thomas weren't able to get over the purple hump again. 

There are football independents without a conference, 5 of them in d3 this year.  If it was easier to move between divisions it would likely create more independents, making it easier to schedule against those other independents, or conferences would be easier to get into and out of, especially if we made another competitive move and got rid of the pool A bids.  If you're in bad conference and don't want to play any good teams during the regular season in order to be considered for a pool c, why do you want to go to the post-season and get killed in the first round by those good teams you wouldn't schedule in the regular season? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 11, 2011, 10:47:27 PM
Why would any team move a division without moving their entire athletics program? That's the total antithesis of D-3. Do you  not get what D-3 is all about?

Yes, I know some programs have grandfathered programs in hockey and lacrosse (and maybe other sports) but in D-3 football or basketball or swimming or volleyball or tennis doesn't wag the dog. An entire athletics program is what is important.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 11, 2011, 10:57:08 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2011, 10:47:27 PM
Why would any team move a division without moving their entire athletics program? That's the total antithesis of D-3. Do you  not get what D-3 is all about?

Yes, I know some programs have grandfathered programs in hockey and lacrosse (and maybe other sports) but in D-3 football or basketball or swimming or volleyball or tennis doesn't wag the dog. An entire athletics program is what is important.
Some athletic directors might have different priorities.  I'm just advocating they be given more options to better serve their school and athletes. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2011, 11:01:48 PM
The OAC is very competitive and very balanced!  One can make the case that the weekly gauntlet that the OAC teams run prepares them for the post-season.

The OAC runner-up usually laments the blown game that knocked them out of Pool C.

In 2011, the BWC stumbled against Capital to fall from Pool C.
In 2010, ONU won a Pool C and beat Wittenburg in the first round before losing to NCC in the second round.
In 2009, Otterbein stumbled against Marietta to fall from Pool C.
In 2008, Otterbein got the Pool C bid and lost to Franklin in a blowout 62-45 in the first round.
In 2007, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost at National Champion UW-Whitewater 34-14 in the first round. (The 20-point margin was the third lowest that season.)
In 2006, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost to UMU in the Elite 8, 17-14.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 12, 2011, 12:22:09 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2011, 11:01:48 PM
The OAC is very competitive and very balanced!  One can make the case that the weekly gauntlet that the OAC teams run prepare them for the post-season.

The OAC runner-up usually laments the blown game that knocked them out of Pool C.

In 2011, the BWC stumbled against Capital to fall from Pool C.
In 2010, ONU won a Pool C and beat Wittenburg in the first round before losing to NCC in the second round.
In 2009, Otterbein stumbled against Marietta to fall from Pool C.
In 2008, Otterbein got the Pool C bid and lost to Franklin in a blowout 62-45 in the first round.
In 2007, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost at National Champion UW-Whitewater 34-14 in the first round. (The 20-point margin was the third lowest that season.)
In 2006, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost to UMU in the Elite 8, 17-14.
I agree completely that the OAC is a strong conference that prepares teams for the D3 postseason.  The best teams from any conference push the lower teams.  Mount could become better in a conference/division where they don't win 95% of all games.  You run faster when you have something to chase, or at least something chasing you closely every week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on December 12, 2011, 12:32:23 AM
Quote from: AO on December 12, 2011, 12:22:09 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2011, 11:01:48 PM
The OAC is very competitive and very balanced!  One can make the case that the weekly gauntlet that the OAC teams run prepare them for the post-season.

The OAC runner-up usually laments the blown game that knocked them out of Pool C.

In 2011, the BWC stumbled against Capital to fall from Pool C.
In 2010, ONU won a Pool C and beat Wittenburg in the first round before losing to NCC in the second round.
In 2009, Otterbein stumbled against Marietta to fall from Pool C.
In 2008, Otterbein got the Pool C bid and lost to Franklin in a blowout 62-45 in the first round.
In 2007, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost at National Champion UW-Whitewater 34-14 in the first round. (The 20-point margin was the third lowest that season.)
In 2006, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost to UMU in the Elite 8, 17-14.
I agree completely that the OAC is a strong conference that prepares teams for the D3 postseason.  The best teams from any conference push the lower teams.  Mount could become better in a conference/division where they don't win 95% of all games.  You run faster when you have something to chase, or at least something chasing you closely every week.

Geez, they've been to 13 of the past 15 Stagg Bowls. How much better do you think they need to be?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 12, 2011, 08:28:00 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2011, 04:00:54 PM

Under a different system maybe schedules wouldn't be determined 4 years in advance.  Maybe you could choose to play in the same conference but a different post-season tournament if you were able to qualify against some of the other independent teams.

... and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Or how about about we set up the world so my kids will eat food and pump out gold bars so I can afford to send them to one of these fine institutions in 20 years? Something tells me the universe isn't going to rearrange itself just because I have a beef. Completely ludicrous. You are talking about totally revamping the category system based on the long-term success of one program in one sport. It hardly makes sense. Especially given the fact that UMU perfectly fits into their conference with like schools and into D3 with a large universe of similar schools. The only problem you have with them is they succeed. I don't know about you, but I try and celebrate success and make it an example, not point to and yell about how they should get out of someone else's way. But to each his own I guess.

+k for your aunt having balls.  That was one of my chiefs favorite expressions.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
AO, why aren't you kvetching about Whitewater? The WIAC resembles some D-2 conferences with its state school population. However, they chose to be D-3 and we welcome them.

Face it, if Mt. Union was winning every playoff game by 20+ points and blowing out teams in the Stagg Bowl, then you may have a point. But Mt. Union, had the breaks fallen a different way, could have lost to B-W, Wabash and Wesley.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ncc58 on December 12, 2011, 01:46:50 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
AO, why aren't you kvetching about Whitewater? The WIAC resembles some D-2 conferences with its state school population. However, they chose to be D-3 and we welcome them.

Face it, if Mt. Union was winning every playoff game by 20+ points and blowing out teams in the Stagg Bowl, then you may have a point. But Mt. Union, had the breaks fallen a different way, could have lost to B-W, Wabash and Wesley.

The kvetching about Whitewater will occur next week.  ;) You'll see the public/private, big/small school discussion then. Pat and Keith will write their annual stories about the tiers in D3 and that their is a big difference between tiers 1 and 2. The poll will be whether UMU and UWW play in next year's Stagg Bowl.

UMU could have lost a couple games. UWW could have lost a couple games. But they didn't. It seems that the breaks always fall their way. UMU wins playoff games with third team QBs. UWW is so deep they never have a significant injury.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2011, 02:23:29 PM
Good teams make breaks fall their way. UMU and UWW have made the breaks happen. You have to be ahead to get the game ending interception. You have to be close to have the game ending field goal. Through strength and experience what we call breaks are really just the difference between the tiers. The top tier wins those close games (UWO and BW/Wesley this year), or they wouldn't be the top tier.

Personally I think the dominance by UMU and UWW is a detriment to D3, but I don't have a big problem with it. It is a bit of a running joke that at the beginning of every D3 season we almost always know how it will end (6 or fewer teams out of 240 with a real shot to win, most likely only 2). Let's face it, less than 3% of the D3 teams have a legitimate chance to win the D3 title. And lets also face it, when ESPN shows the Stagg every year, they harp on UMU and UWW making it seem like a bit of a joke to the casual fan stumbling across the game. If you aren't a deep fan, then I could see how a casual associate would just write off the D3 universe as UWW and UMU and everyone else is "intramurals".

While we know that isn't right, it's hard to argue when we are going on Purple Bowl 7, and UMU Bowl 15 of 17 or so. But both programs play within the rules, they just are better. I don't believe in punishing people for success, and I don't think there is any way to do so.

However, the UWW and UMU folks will have to forgive me if I continue to hope, each year, that someone else finds a way to breakthrough. I'd really appreciate it if we could expand that top tier to 10-15 teams, or roughly 6% of the D3 universe. To put it in D1 terms, that would be about 7 teams in any given year with a shot to win. Probably about right. But for D3, we need those teams to equal UMU and UWW, not restrict or remove those teams to make it easier for everyone else.

Come on Wesley, UMBH, Linfield, St. Thomas, St. Johns, Salisbury, St. John Fischer, Cortland, Del Val, Montclair, Trinity, Trine and whoever else has played at the top in the past and currently. Take those next couple steps and make it so you are the team making the "breaks" that end the game. D3 needs you guys.

To be honest, if we can spend a few years without a purple bowl it will make it that much harder for those teams to dominate again. Winning breeds recruiting, and UMU has excelled like no other in that game. So someone else is going to have to take them down a notch for more than a year or two to break that pattern.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 02:43:36 PM
You watch, though, next year it could be UMHB vs. St. Thomas in the Stagg Bowl and it'll still be "PURPLE"!  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 12, 2011, 03:02:24 PM
[Please note - in case it is not obvious to all, the following is tongue-in-cheek.]

Many, including even some UMU and UWW supporters, are complaining that the seventh consecutive Stagg with the same participants is getting boring.  May I suggest a different perspective:

In several sports, nothing is more anticipated than a finals game seven.  Let's think of the 2005-2011 Staggs as the World Series, NBA Finals, and Stanley Cup all rolled into one!  Celebrate!

HOWEVER, UMU and UWW, do not 'ruin' 2005-2011 by seeking a game eight - what an anti-climax!  Kick back and relax, rest on your laurels, and let two other teams get to know Stone Station! 8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on December 12, 2011, 03:14:34 PM
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2011, 10:04:34 PM
If it was easier to move between divisions it would likely create more independents, making it easier to schedule against those other independents, or conferences would be easier to get into and out of, especially if we made another competitive move and got rid of the pool A bids.  If you're in bad conference and don't want to play any good teams during the regular season in order to be considered for a pool c, why do you want to go to the post-season and get killed in the first round by those good teams you wouldn't schedule in the regular season?

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Nooooo.  Pool A is a GREAT thing.  If we go back to a system that selects teams based on opinion of which league is better than which, then an awful lot of teams that have had some playoff success would never get a chance.  There are plenty of recent examples when Champion of Weak League beats Champion of Strong League or Runner Up of Strong League.  It's way too difficult to say, with absolute certainty, how good a team from one of these perceived "weak" leagues is until they get a chance to play teams from stronger leagues.  It would be a travesty if the tournament turned into a exclusive club where you have to belong to one of six leagues to be a member.  We've got that system already in one level of football and it stinks. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2011, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 02:43:36 PM
You watch, though, next year it could be UMHB vs. St. Thomas in the Stagg Bowl and it'll still be "PURPLE"!  ;)

I'll take it!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 12, 2011, 03:51:29 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 02:43:36 PM
You watch, though, next year it could be UMHB vs. St. Thomas in the Stagg Bowl and it'll still be "PURPLE"!  ;)
The 2004 Stagg was also a PURPLE (Linfield vs UMHB).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 12, 2011, 03:59:56 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on December 12, 2011, 03:14:34 PM
Quote from: AO on December 11, 2011, 10:04:34 PM
If it was easier to move between divisions it would likely create more independents, making it easier to schedule against those other independents, or conferences would be easier to get into and out of, especially if we made another competitive move and got rid of the pool A bids.  If you're in bad conference and don't want to play any good teams during the regular season in order to be considered for a pool c, why do you want to go to the post-season and get killed in the first round by those good teams you wouldn't schedule in the regular season?

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Nooooo.  Pool A is a GREAT thing.  If we go back to a system that selects teams based on opinion of which league is better than which, then an awful lot of teams that have had some playoff success would never get a chance.  There are plenty of recent examples when Champion of Weak League beats Champion of Strong League or Runner Up of Strong League.  It's way too difficult to say, with absolute certainty, how good a team from one of these perceived "weak" leagues is until they get a chance to play teams from stronger leagues.  It would be a travesty if the tournament turned into a exclusive club where you have to belong to one of six leagues to be a member.  We've got that system already in one level of football and it stinks.
If there is one thing that approaches unanimity of favor among the D-III fans who have been around several seasons, it is the Pool System. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 07:27:26 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2011, 08:24:25 PM
I don't know about you, but I try and celebrate success and make it an example, not point to and yell about how they should get out of someone else's way.

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Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 07:32:25 PM
So, a couple questions popping up:

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on December 12, 2011, 07:48:10 PM
Quote from: ILGator on December 12, 2011, 01:46:50 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
AO, why aren't you kvetching about Whitewater? The WIAC resembles some D-2 conferences with its state school population. However, they chose to be D-3 and we welcome them.

Face it, if Mt. Union was winning every playoff game by 20+ points and blowing out teams in the Stagg Bowl, then you may have a point. But Mt. Union, had the breaks fallen a different way, could have lost to B-W, Wabash and Wesley.

The kvetching about Whitewater will occur next week.  ;) You'll see the public/private, big/small school discussion then. Pat and Keith will write their annual stories about the tiers in D3 and that their is a big difference between tiers 1 and 2. The poll will be whether UMU and UWW play in next year's Stagg Bowl.

UMU could have lost a couple games. UWW could have lost a couple games. But they didn't. It seems that the breaks always fall their way. UMU wins playoff games with third team QBs. UWW is so deep they never have a significant injury.

I don't agree with your comment UWW could have lost a couple games - that's not true.

However, the last line is very true!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:07:44 PM
Quote from: BoBo on December 12, 2011, 07:48:10 PM
Quote from: ILGator on December 12, 2011, 01:46:50 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
AO, why aren't you kvetching about Whitewater? The WIAC resembles some D-2 conferences with its state school population. However, they chose to be D-3 and we welcome them.

Face it, if Mt. Union was winning every playoff game by 20+ points and blowing out teams in the Stagg Bowl, then you may have a point. But Mt. Union, had the breaks fallen a different way, could have lost to B-W, Wabash and Wesley.

The kvetching about Whitewater will occur next week.  ;) You'll see the public/private, big/small school discussion then. Pat and Keith will write their annual stories about the tiers in D3 and that their is a big difference between tiers 1 and 2. The poll will be whether UMU and UWW play in next year's Stagg Bowl.

UMU could have lost a couple games. UWW could have lost a couple games. But they didn't. It seems that the breaks always fall their way. UMU wins playoff games with third team QBs. UWW is so deep they never have a significant injury.

I don't agree with your comment UWW could have lost a couple games - that's not true.

However, the last line is very true!!

I'm not writing a damn thing after Friday night.

UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, but I count 22 games that they either lost or were one-score games in the fourth quarter since the run began. The Warhawks are beatable.

Haven't done the count for UMU. I guess I'll include it in the YIR or somewhere where folks can read it and argue about what it means.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on December 12, 2011, 09:37:54 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:07:44 PM
Quote from: BoBo on December 12, 2011, 07:48:10 PM
Quote from: ILGator on December 12, 2011, 01:46:50 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
AO, why aren't you kvetching about Whitewater? The WIAC resembles some D-2 conferences with its state school population. However, they chose to be D-3 and we welcome them.

Face it, if Mt. Union was winning every playoff game by 20+ points and blowing out teams in the Stagg Bowl, then you may have a point. But Mt. Union, had the breaks fallen a different way, could have lost to B-W, Wabash and Wesley.

The kvetching about Whitewater will occur next week.  ;) You'll see the public/private, big/small school discussion then. Pat and Keith will write their annual stories about the tiers in D3 and that their is a big difference between tiers 1 and 2. The poll will be whether UMU and UWW play in next year's Stagg Bowl.

UMU could have lost a couple games. UWW could have lost a couple games. But they didn't. It seems that the breaks always fall their way. UMU wins playoff games with third team QBs. UWW is so deep they never have a significant injury.

I don't agree with your comment UWW could have lost a couple games - that's not true.

However, the last line is very true!!

I'm not writing a damn thing after Friday night.

UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, but I count 22 games that they either lost or were one-score games in the fourth quarter since the run began. The Warhawks are beatable.

Haven't done the count for UMU. I guess I'll include it in the YIR or somewhere where folks can read it and argue about what it means.

I'm sorry - my interpretation of IlGator's comment was that UWW could've lost a couple games this year - other than Oshkosh, and looking beyond a simple final score, nothing was really in doubt. He may very well meant to say over the course of this streak, but I didn't read it that way. Smed's original comment about UMU was about this year's schedule:
Quotecould have lost to B-W, Wabash and Wesley
I figured IlGator was talking about the same thing with UWW. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:50:39 PM
I understood it the way you understood it and acknowledged that. But since I had done the research last night in response to a different question, I thought I would share it here.

Sorry if it threw you off. UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, outside of UW-O and maybe the second UW-L game. Hard to say the 17-3 and 20-0 games weren't domination, though, just by defense not overwhelming offense.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: WarhawkDad on December 12, 2011, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:50:39 PM
I understood it the way you understood it and acknowledged that. But since I had done the research last night in response to a different question, I thought I would share it here.

Sorry if it threw you off. UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, outside of UW-O and maybe the second UW-L game. Hard to say the 17-3 and 20-0 games weren't domination, though, just by defense not overwhelming offense.
With the lead against St. Thomas and after the clock eating opening drive of the third quarter, the play calling changed to ball control, grind it out, field position football. No need to have dominating offense in that game at that time. 

WarhawkDad
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on December 12, 2011, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 12, 2011, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:50:39 PM
I understood it the way you understood it and acknowledged that. But since I had done the research last night in response to a different question, I thought I would share it here.

Sorry if it threw you off. UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, outside of UW-O and maybe the second UW-L game. Hard to say the 17-3 and 20-0 games weren't domination, though, just by defense not overwhelming offense.
With the lead against St. Thomas and after the clock eating opening drive of the third quarter, the play calling changed to ball control, grind it out, field position football. No need to have dominating offense in that game at that time. 

WarhawkDad

Good point WarhawkDad...and many of those other 22 games over the last 7 years were finished off the same way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:23:02 PM
I just wanted to leave this here.

Right now, Cal Tech is 4-2 in hoops. Yes, Cal Tech has already won four basketball games.

If Cal Tech can have a winning record (yes, just six games, but still...) in hoops, then some team will beat Mt. Union and Whitewater.

Sometimes cycles are short, sometimes cycles are long, but everything is a cycle in life...

And I still can't believe Cal Tech is 4-2 in hoops.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 12, 2011, 10:28:30 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 12, 2011, 10:23:02 PM

And I still can't believe Cal Tech is 4-2 in hoops.

Hey, they won five games last year after winning one the previous two seasons combined.  Program is definitely on the way up (seriously, that coach deserves a lot of credit for what he's done there). 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 12, 2011, 09:56:17 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:50:39 PM
I understood it the way you understood it and acknowledged that. But since I had done the research last night in response to a different question, I thought I would share it here.

Sorry if it threw you off. UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, outside of UW-O and maybe the second UW-L game. Hard to say the 17-3 and 20-0 games weren't domination, though, just by defense not overwhelming offense.

With the lead against St. Thomas and after the clock eating opening drive of the third quarter, the play calling changed to ball control, grind it out, field position football. No need to have dominating offense in that game at that time. 

WarhawkDad

I said basically the same thing in the podcast.

Above I was saying that UW-W is dominating the other team, just not by gaudy scores. With ball control, by not making any mistakes that let teams back into the game, and by grinding the opponent to a pulp generally.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 11:52:24 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2011, 09:59:09 PM
I remember the thread.

UMU could not move up because:

1) they sponsor more sports in D-III than they could support in D-II.
2) the entire program does not perform at the football level in other sports.
3) the funding for moving to D-II without cutting sports would be prohibitive.
4) the dynamics of the number of athletes that will be participating in football, with 36 full scholarship equivalents in D-II, changes from the 150 participants in the D-III model.  The financial impact to the school would be incredible, especially as a private school in the GLIAC with its large number of public schools.
5) If they join the GLIAC which covers all of the other UMU sports, where do (M&W) Lacrosse compete?

Ralph, I don't know why this randomly came to me yesterday as I was driving, but UMU in this fictional-and-highly-unlikely-scenario would perhaps be a better fit in the PSAC, travel-wise.

I don't think UMU would ever go anywhere unless the entire OAC did, and the OAC is very D-III. The WIAC I could envision moving, and I could only see UW-W going where the rest of the WIAC goes. But I've never heard any indication the WIAC is interested in moving, which brings me back to one of my original points:

I've never heard anyone articulate a good reason why it would be in UMU or UWW's best interests to move. Nor have I heard anyone from either school even hint that they're not completely comfortable where they are.

So for the rest of us, back to Plan A: Someone's gonna have to beat them fair and square.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 12, 2011, 11:57:37 PM
The biggest key... move it all or don't move at all. Can't get a deal like Johns Hopkins (lacrosse), Hartwick (soccer), etc. since they are now grandfathered into a rule the prohibits just one sport moving.

And there is NO reason, especially in these very difficult times economically and budget wise to move an entire department up into scholarship divisions... that money has to go into the athletic budget and when schools like the University of Maryland are still cutting programs (rightly, but mainly wrongly), that isn't a realistic expectation.

The same argument has been made for years with Salisbury University in lacrosse... it isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 13, 2011, 12:22:17 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 11:52:24 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 07, 2011, 09:59:09 PM
I remember the thread.

UMU could not move up because:

1) they sponsor more sports in D-III than they could support in D-II.
2) the entire program does not perform at the football level in other sports.
3) the funding for moving to D-II without cutting sports would be prohibitive.
4) the dynamics of the number of athletes that will be participating in football, with 36 full scholarship equivalents in D-II, changes from the 150 participants in the D-III model.  The financial impact to the school would be incredible, especially as a private school in the GLIAC with its large number of public schools.
5) If they join the GLIAC which covers all of the other UMU sports, where do (M&W) Lacrosse compete?

Ralph, I don't know why this randomly came to me yesterday as I was driving, but UMU in this fictional-and-highly-unlikely-scenario would perhaps be a better fit in the PSAC, travel-wise.

I don't think UMU would ever go anywhere unless the entire OAC did, and the OAC is very D-III. The WIAC I could envision moving, and I could only see UW-W going where the rest of the WIAC goes. But I've never heard any indication the WIAC is interested in moving, which brings me back to one of my original points:

I've never heard anyone articulate a good reason why it would be in UMU or UWW's best interests to move. Nor have I heard anyone from either school even hint that they're not completely comfortable where they are.

So for the rest of us, back to Plan A: Someone's gonna have to beat them fair and square.
Thanks K-Mack.

I agree that it is not in the best interests of either one to move to D-II.

The WIAC excels at the highest level of D-III as a public school conference.  Only the NJAC can come close to that level in my humble opinion.  The WIAC has a lock on the state with an excellent product for student-athletes.

Remember the D-IV discussion.  (See David Collinge's post here.)  See which conference is the D-IV.
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=3880.829
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 13, 2011, 12:46:04 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 12, 2011, 11:57:37 PM
The biggest key... move it all or don't move at all. Can't get a deal like Johns Hopkins (lacrosse), Hartwick (soccer), etc. since they are now grandfathered into a rule the prohibits just one sport moving.

And there is NO reason, especially in these very difficult times economically and budget wise to move an entire department up into scholarship divisions... that money has to go into the athletic budget and when schools like the University of Maryland are still cutting programs (rightly, but mainly wrongly), that isn't a realistic expectation.

The same argument has been made for years with Salisbury University in lacrosse... it isn't going to happen.
Can we take a look back now on the contentious vote that allowed programs like Johns Hopkins to have their program grandfathered in?  Did it really give an unfair advantage to their football team?  It flies in the face of reality to suggest that all teams at a particular institution are all at the same competitive level.  We have D3 teams such as St. Thomas building ridiculous facilities with an everlasting money pot without having a D1 program to rely on. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 13, 2011, 12:51:15 AM
Ralph, I'm gonna miss you if you head off to the D2football.com boards.

Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2011, 11:01:48 PM
The OAC is very competitive and very balanced!  One can make the case that the weekly gauntlet that the OAC teams run prepares them for the post-season.

The OAC runner-up usually laments the blown game that knocked them out of Pool C.

In 2011, the BWC stumbled against Capital to fall from Pool C.
In 2010, ONU won a Pool C and beat Wittenburg in the first round before losing to NCC in the second round.
In 2009, Otterbein stumbled against Marietta to fall from Pool C.
In 2008, Otterbein got the Pool C bid and lost to Franklin in a blowout 62-45 in the first round.
In 2007, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost at National Champion UW-Whitewater 34-14 in the first round. (The 20-point margin was the third lowest that season.)
In 2006, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost to UMU in the Elite 8, 17-14.

While you're making this point, Capital finished ranked No. 5 in 2005 and No. 3 in 2006, with a three-point loss at Mount Union in the playoffs both years. They were definitely one play away from breaking through (although both Ls were in the quarterfinals).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 13, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 12, 2011, 11:57:37 PM
The biggest key... move it all or don't move at all. Can't get a deal like Johns Hopkins (lacrosse), Hartwick (soccer), etc. since they are now grandfathered into a rule the prohibits just one sport moving.

And even before that, you could never move football or basketball up a level. That wasn't permitted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 13, 2011, 02:04:58 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 13, 2011, 12:51:15 AM
Ralph, I'm gonna miss you if you head off to the D2football.com boards.

Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2011, 11:01:48 PM
The OAC is very competitive and very balanced!  One can make the case that the weekly gauntlet that the OAC teams run prepares them for the post-season.

The OAC runner-up usually laments the blown game that knocked them out of Pool C.

In 2011, the BWC stumbled against Capital to fall from Pool C.
In 2010, ONU won a Pool C and beat Wittenburg in the first round before losing to NCC in the second round.
In 2009, Otterbein stumbled against Marietta to fall from Pool C.
In 2008, Otterbein got the Pool C bid and lost to Franklin in a blowout 62-45 in the first round.
In 2007, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost at National Champion UW-Whitewater 34-14 in the first round. (The 20-point margin was the third lowest that season.)
In 2006, Capital got the Pool C bid and lost to UMU in the Elite 8, 17-14.

While you're making this point, Capital finished ranked No. 5 in 2005 and No. 3 in 2006, with a three-point loss at Mount Union in the playoffs both years. They were definitely one play away from breaking through (although both Ls were in the quarterfinals).
I have a lot of friends and about 10-12 years of historical recall on the D3boards.   ;)

As for 2005, this year's college seniors couldn't even drive in 2005!

D2 is a completely different animal.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on December 13, 2011, 02:08:51 PM
So are you gonna stick around for grins and giggles, Ralph?  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 13, 2011, 02:17:03 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 13, 2011, 02:08:51 PM
So are you gonna stick around for grins and giggles, Ralph?  :D
Yes.  I understand what D2 offers and the strategic advantages that D2 can afford a university for its student athletes.  There are some very specific changes that are happening in Texas, itself a D-3 island/orphan, in which this timely move to D-2 is an opportunity that one must consider in the paradigm shift that is happening, both in college education and in Texas state politics and educational funding.

The vacuum that is being left in D-2 in Texas is amazing to consider.

I am still a D3 kinda guy!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ncc58 on December 14, 2011, 04:17:29 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 12, 2011, 09:50:39 PM
I understood it the way you understood it and acknowledged that. But since I had done the research last night in response to a different question, I thought I would share it here.

Sorry if it threw you off. UW-W has been mostly dominant this season, outside of UW-O and maybe the second UW-L game. Hard to say the 17-3 and 20-0 games weren't domination, though, just by defense not overwhelming offense.

There were 4 UWW games that were close going into the second half.

UWW was tied with UWP at the half, and it was a one score game until the 4th when a UWP defender failed to get LC on the ground in the backfield and the play resulted in a ridiculous TD run.

UWW trailed UWO at halftime and was tied after 3 quarters.

The game with UWSP was a 5 point game at halftime. And UWW only led EC by a TD at halftime.

Of course, UWW exerted their dominance in the final half (or quarter) of those games. Just one ill timed turnover could have changed any of those games. But any of those games would give a WIAC team confidence that they could play with UWW.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 15, 2011, 06:56:37 PM
AO - not sure if you are familiar with JHU football and its history... but I wouldn't go and say it has an advantage thanks to the lacrosse program. The ONE thing that has changed that could "affect" the football team was the turf was changed to the new field-turfs... but even Goucher College put in field turf for all of it's outdoor sports except men's lacrosse (who plays on the surface when its prefered grass surface isn't in shape to play on).

And you could say the JHU football team has gotten a pretty cool scoreboard with video and replay... but that is something I have seen at other schools and honestly is not all that big when it comes to Division I stadiums.

The stadium is still rather old and simple... but that is what makes Hopkins lacrosse and football unique.

The JHU lacrosse program is actually building a completely new facility to house the teams and coaches offices, etc. When that is complete, the only advantage that football and the other teams at JHU will garner is the fact that there will finally be room for everyone in the main athletics building (you should see how crammed things are).

And finally, it wasn't until the last few years that JHU football has actually been pretty good... so how do you explain whatever advantages they have gotten from the lacrosse program that has been around as a Division I program since ... geez I can't even find out how long... but for generations.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AO on December 15, 2011, 11:42:25 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 15, 2011, 06:56:37 PM
AO - not sure if you are familiar with JHU football and its history... but I wouldn't go and say it has an advantage thanks to the lacrosse program. The ONE thing that has changed that could "affect" the football team was the turf was changed to the new field-turfs... but even Goucher College put in field turf for all of it's outdoor sports except men's lacrosse (who plays on the surface when its prefered grass surface isn't in shape to play on).

And you could say the JHU football team has gotten a pretty cool scoreboard with video and replay... but that is something I have seen at other schools and honestly is not all that big when it comes to Division I stadiums.

The stadium is still rather old and simple... but that is what makes Hopkins lacrosse and football unique.

The JHU lacrosse program is actually building a completely new facility to house the teams and coaches offices, etc. When that is complete, the only advantage that football and the other teams at JHU will garner is the fact that there will finally be room for everyone in the main athletics building (you should see how crammed things are).

And finally, it wasn't until the last few years that JHU football has actually been pretty good... so how do you explain whatever advantages they have gotten from the lacrosse program that has been around as a Division I program since ... geez I can't even find out how long... but for generations.
My tone probably wasn't evident in my previous post, but I am a supporter of letting schools pick and choose which division each sport will play in.  I'm sure that if Amherst were to switch their basketball team to D1 and they built a new arena and generated millions that they would have an advantage over Williams in their other d3 sports, but I wouldn't classify that advantage as being unfair.  Here in Minnesota I'm sure UM-Duluth football is helped by their d1 hockey team, but St. Cloud State's hockey team might not be enough to save the football team from being cut as has been recently threatened.  As I noted previously about St. Thomas., some schools will be able to give better financial aid packages and offer better facilities.  As long as the d3sports play under the d3rules in terms of no-scholarships and number of practices, etc...I say game on. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on December 17, 2011, 09:25:02 AM
Keith,

Great work on YIR. I love reading your stuff. You bring a viewpoint based in intelligence and analysis that is both refreshing and encouraging as you capture snippets from the d3 landscape throughout the season. It is one of the things I miss in the off season. But this:

ATN almost never discusses race, a tribute to the way D-III never makes it necessary. Doors are open to players from diverse walks of life, with football and college being the common denominators. You don't have to go back too far in the history of many D-III colleges to find a time when the educational opportunities were available only to a small sliver of the population, based on race, gender, social class and more. As 2011 is a stitch in time, one in which the racial makeup of the championship teams or the panel of Gagliardi Trophy finalists goes undiscussed, it is an extra point for which D-III can pat itself on the back. In this day and age, we are successfully judging one another on our merits.

Struck me as very profound. The fact that race is rarely discussed in D3 is one of the best indicators we are headed in the right direction as a leading indicator for our society. Where we are now is not acceptable but where we are relative to where we have been is very encouraging. Thank you for your work and for this reminder. I do not take it for granted.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 17, 2011, 10:56:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 16, 2011, 10:10:45 AM
Who will win Stagg Bowl XXXIX?
UW-Whitewater by 7-plus (2141) - 56%
Mount Union by 1-6 (664) - 17%
UW-Whitewater by 1-6 (516) - 13%
Mount Union by 7-plus (489) - 12%
Total votes: 3810

Can Stagg this be considered a near-upset or parity?

Thanks to all who comment!   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: BoBo on December 18, 2011, 08:35:04 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 17, 2011, 10:56:21 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 16, 2011, 10:10:45 AM
Who will win Stagg Bowl XXXIX?
UW-Whitewater by 7-plus (2141) - 56%
Mount Union by 1-6 (664) - 17%
UW-Whitewater by 1-6 (516) - 13%
Mount Union by 7-plus (489) - 12%
Total votes: 3810

Can Stagg this be considered a near-upset or parity?

Thanks to all who comment!   :)

My $.02 says it has to be parity.  After 7 consecutive Stagg Bowls, to think these two could be 4 to 3 in games and 183 (UWW) to 181 in total points is remarkable. As far as the poll question goes, those who cast a vote, including myself, probably thought the game would go according to the previous 6 games and be about a 10 point margin of victory (except '06 of course), but highly competitive & the winner in doubt until the last few minutes of the fourth quarter. Other than '06, it's been that way. Defenses ruled this year.

On a side note, when adding up the percentages (56+17+13+12), it only equals 98%!!  What happened to the other 2%?   ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 18, 2011, 02:35:41 PM
Believe those are people who hit the vote button without selecting anything.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 18, 2011, 02:47:23 PM
Quote from: USee on December 17, 2011, 09:25:02 AM
Keith,

Great work on YIR. I love reading your stuff. You bring a viewpoint based in intelligence and analysis that is both refreshing and encouraging as you capture snippets from the d3 landscape throughout the season. It is one of the things I miss in the off season. But this:

ATN almost never discusses race, a tribute to the way D-III never makes it necessary. Doors are open to players from diverse walks of life, with football and college being the common denominators. You don't have to go back too far in the history of many D-III colleges to find a time when the educational opportunities were available only to a small sliver of the population, based on race, gender, social class and more. As 2011 is a stitch in time, one in which the racial makeup of the championship teams or the panel of Gagliardi Trophy finalists goes undiscussed, it is an extra point for which D-III can pat itself on the back. In this day and age, we are successfully judging one another on our merits.

Struck me as very profound. The fact that race is rarely discussed in D3 is one of the best indicators we are headed in the right direction as a leading indicator for our society. Where we are now is not acceptable but where we are relative to where we have been is very encouraging. Thank you for your work and for this reminder. I do not take it for granted.

I appreciate it. While I wrote that to reflect it as a positive thing, and chose my words carefully than I do some paragraphs, I realize race, religion and politics almost always bring some sort of reaction, and I was bracing for negative feedback more than someone telling me that was profound.

So I appreciate it even more, considering.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUKaz00 on January 03, 2012, 02:35:06 PM
Not sure if this is the best place for it, but playing off of the frontpage story about the former Central player refereeing the BCS championship game, Pep wrote a nice column about 2 former Saxons in the NFL (http://www.eveningtribune.com/footballfever/columns/x2086542814/Pep-Talk-Saxon-in-the-NFL).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on August 22, 2012, 01:15:46 AM
So now that Kickoff is published ... new season anyone?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on August 29, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 22, 2012, 01:15:46 AM
So now that Kickoff is published ... new season anyone?
Yes, I like how you seem to have moved the bulk of the ASC teams into the top half of D3 schools. It appears that the mid-range ASC schools have gotten stronger, in McMurry's departure.  Sul Ross and Howard Payne still need some help.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 03, 2012, 09:50:36 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on August 29, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 22, 2012, 01:15:46 AM
So now that Kickoff is published ... new season anyone?
Yes, I like how you seem to have moved the bulk of the ASC teams into the top half of D3 schools. It appears that the mid-range ASC schools have gotten stronger, in McMurry's departure.  Sul Ross and Howard Payne still need some help.

Ralph ... how is your first foray into Division II coming? Have you infiltrated the D2football.com boards yet?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 05, 2012, 10:10:33 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 03, 2012, 09:50:36 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on August 29, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 22, 2012, 01:15:46 AM
So now that Kickoff is published ... new season anyone?
Yes, I like how you seem to have moved the bulk of the ASC teams into the top half of D3 schools. It appears that the mid-range ASC schools have gotten stronger, in McMurry's departure.  Sul Ross and Howard Payne still need some help.

Ralph ... how is your first foray into Division II coming? Have you infiltrated the D2football.com boards yet?
Hi K-Mack. The D-2 message board is a different creature.  McMurry will be on the Independents board with Okie Panhandle State.  We have an all-time winning record against Okie Panhandle State!  Not much to talk about yet.

The biggest news on campus this week was the death of (former Defensive Back) Staff Sergeant Jeremie Border,  a 2006 grad, in Afghanistan. The players will wear #28 on their helmets this season.

Jeremie was your typical D-3 player. Double major in Sociology and Communications, active in Servant Leadership, Who's Who in American Colleges and Universities and FCA on campus.

I believe that he is our first "Gold Star" since Viet Nam.  On the western side of the campus is Gold Star Dormitory that was built in 1948 to memorialize the exes from World War II.

We will commemorate Jeremie in an appropriate fashion.  I think that you met Coach/Asst Professor Bill Libby when you were at McMurry when you came. Coach Libby is a former chaplain with the 101st Airborne, current Old Testament professor and former Cross Country coach.  He has led Student Leadership and is the CHAMPS Life Skills Coordinator.  Jeremie told his mom that he wanted Coach Libby to give his eulogy long ago.  Coach Libby will do a great job. (Coach Libby spends his summers in Jordan, doing archeological digs, whenever he can.)



Here is another memorial created by the Tom Landry Classic.  See the link below.

http://www.ihigh.com/vypedfw/article_135510.html
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 07, 2012, 12:01:45 AM
Ralph, I always love your input.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 07, 2012, 02:48:43 PM
Love the Top 50. Very appropriate given the size of DIII.

Love the love for Bethel. Here's to hoping they prove you underrated them  ;)

thanks for all the great, hard work Keith
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: KitchenSink on September 10, 2012, 01:23:48 PM
Keith, you disappear from this week's podcast about halfway through.  (And I miss you terribly)  8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 10, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
Quote from: KitchenSink on September 10, 2012, 01:23:48 PM
Keith, you disappear from this week's podcast about halfway through.  (And I miss you terribly)  8-)

Hmm -- looking at the file I can't see why that would happen, unless you're in mono or listening on just one speaker.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 10, 2012, 10:54:05 PM
Good quality audio on Keith's microphone so far in the first few minutes of the podcast.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 11, 2012, 12:05:18 AM
when I was listening Keith sounded softer than pat. I had to stop listening because I couldn't find a good balance that would over come the sound of woks in the background.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 13, 2012, 05:38:45 PM
This is odd because when I listened to it, both Pat and I sounded fine. And we used the same setup as the week before.

The only I remember is that there was some buffering this week, and I did blip out for a half-second here and there. But people are saying I went away and never came back?

We'll have to clean that up for this coming week. Thanks all for mentioning it, and for caring enough to listen.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: SaintsFAN on September 13, 2012, 06:31:41 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 05, 2012, 10:10:33 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 03, 2012, 09:50:36 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on August 29, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on August 22, 2012, 01:15:46 AM
So now that Kickoff is published ... new season anyone?
Yes, I like how you seem to have moved the bulk of the ASC teams into the top half of D3 schools. It appears that the mid-range ASC schools have gotten stronger, in McMurry's departure.  Sul Ross and Howard Payne still need some help.

Ralph ... how is your first foray into Division II coming? Have you infiltrated the D2football.com boards yet?
Hi K-Mack. The D-2 message board is a different creature.  McMurry will be on the Independents board with Okie Panhandle State.  We have an all-time winning record against Okie Panhandle State!  Not much to talk about yet.

The biggest news on campus this week was the death of (former Defensive Back) Staff Sergeant Jeremie Border,  a 2006 grad, in Afghanistan. The players will wear #28 on their helmets this season.

Jeremie was your typical D-3 player. Double major in Sociology and Communications, active in Servant Leadership, Who's Who in American Colleges and Universities and FCA on campus.

I believe that he is our first "Gold Star" since Viet Nam.  On the western side of the campus is Gold Star Dormitory that was built in 1948 to memorialize the exes from World War II.

We will commemorate Jeremie in an appropriate fashion.  I think that you met Coach/Asst Professor Bill Libby when you were at McMurry when you came. Coach Libby is a former chaplain with the 101st Airborne, current Old Testament professor and former Cross Country coach.  He has led Student Leadership and is the CHAMPS Life Skills Coordinator.  Jeremie told his mom that he wanted Coach Libby to give his eulogy long ago.  Coach Libby will do a great job. (Coach Libby spends his summers in Jordan, doing archeological digs, whenever he can.)



Here is another memorial created by the Tom Landry Classic.  See the link below.

http://www.ihigh.com/vypedfw/article_135510.html

RIP -- Keith is there a feature coming on this Patriot making the ultimate sacrifice?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 14, 2012, 01:46:23 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 13, 2012, 05:38:45 PM
This is odd because when I listened to it, both Pat and I sounded fine. And we used the same setup as the week before.

The only I remember is that there was some buffering this week, and I did blip out for a half-second here and there. But people are saying I went away and never came back?

We'll have to clean that up for this coming week. Thanks all for mentioning it, and for caring enough to listen.

I talked to Pat, because his audio dropped out on me about halfway through (after the sound byte)... may have been something with the mix down when the recording was complete... it happens - trust me. The second half was in stereo when the first half was in mono... so if you have a stereo/mono issue with your headphones or speakers (I have a speaker that likes to drop out on me on occasions), then it would have sounded like the audio dropped out from someone.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on September 15, 2012, 02:36:16 AM
Keith,

I really liked your take on the scheduling issue in the Around The Nation column.  That question has been tossed around in high schools and all of the college divisions for a long time.  I think it primarily comes down to first, the difficulty a team faces in filling its schedule and secondly what the head coach thinks is best for his team.  Sometimes the coach gets it right and sometimes not!

In addition, while you are absolutely correct that Austin College has not made the Division III playoffs, I think it is worth noting that they were co-champions in the NAIA in 1981.  The game ended in a tie and both coaches had agreed prior to the contest that in the event of a tie they would call themselves Co-Champs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2012, 05:26:22 PM
Great ATN.

For the teams at the top of the pecking order, I like the non-region game approach.  UWW can fill out its schedule with a D-III opponent for whom a loss might not be devastating.

I think that the "non-region" benefit to Buff State was that the coach could show his program where they stood, but a loss would not be "primary criteria"

I may be mis-informed on the mindset of the selection committees, but a good outcome in the secondary criteria surely carries weight when "primary" criteria get fuzzy.

Buff State can make the case for being a solid Pool C, if they don't win the E8.  (Is UWW still as good as we imagine?)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: emma17 on September 16, 2012, 10:44:56 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2012, 05:26:22 PM
Great ATN.

For the teams at the top of the pecking order, I like the non-region game approach.  UWW can fill out its schedule with a D-III opponent for whom a loss might not be devastating.

I think that the "non-region" benefit to Buff State was that the coach could show his program where they stood, but a loss would not be "primary criteria"

I may be mis-informed on the mindset of the selection committees, but a good outcome in the secondary criteria surely carries weight when "primary" criteria get fuzzy.

Buff State can make the case for being a solid Pool C, if they don't win the E8.  (Is UWW still as good as we imagine?)

That is a legitmate question.  Yesterday's game showed that the UWW defense is going to have to carry this team for a while if UWW is ultimately going to be the team we imagined. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 18, 2012, 01:03:30 AM
Quote from: roocru on September 15, 2012, 02:36:16 AM
Keith,

I really liked your take on the scheduling issue in the Around The Nation column.  That question has been tossed around in high schools and all of the college divisions for a long time.  I think it primarily comes down to first, the difficulty a team faces in filling its schedule and secondly what the head coach thinks is best for his team.  Sometimes the coach gets it right and sometimes not!

In addition, while you are absolutely correct that Austin College has not made the Division III playoffs, I think it is worth noting that they were co-champions in the NAIA in 1981.  The game ended in a tie and both coaches had agreed prior to the contest that in the event of a tie they would call themselves Co-Champs.

A Platteville fan also e-mailed to mention an NAIA title.

I only have access to the D-III record book, which dates from 1973, but with different schools coming over at different times -- St. John's won the 1976 NAIA title, some PAC schools and the NWC was all NAIA in the 90s -- there is a part of history that's sort of vanished, from my perspective, but not from those of you who know it from being at the school.

Randolph-Macon, for instance, celebrates its 1969 undefeated Knute Rockne (Stagg precursor) Bowl team, so if you played there, you know those guys, but nobody else ever refers to that one championship R-MC won way back.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 18, 2012, 01:05:31 AM
Quote from: emma17 on September 16, 2012, 10:44:56 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2012, 05:26:22 PM
Great ATN.

For the teams at the top of the pecking order, I like the non-region game approach.  UWW can fill out its schedule with a D-III opponent for whom a loss might not be devastating.

I think that the "non-region" benefit to Buff State was that the coach could show his program where they stood, but a loss would not be "primary criteria"

I may be mis-informed on the mindset of the selection committees, but a good outcome in the secondary criteria surely carries weight when "primary" criteria get fuzzy.

Buff State can make the case for being a solid Pool C, if they don't win the E8.  (Is UWW still as good as we imagine?)

That is a legitmate question.  Yesterday's game showed that the UWW defense is going to have to carry this team for a while if UWW is ultimately going to be the team we imagined.

emma, I think I said that in the podcast, so I'm glad to hear someone closer to the program say it as well.

Ralph and rocru, it surprises me, sometimes the ATNs that I think are the weakest get more feedback than some I thought were pretty good.

Ralph, good distinction on out-of-region-but-in-D-III games. I should have mentioned.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 18, 2012, 11:49:46 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 18, 2012, 01:03:30 AM
Quote from: roocru on September 15, 2012, 02:36:16 AM
Keith,

I really liked your take on the scheduling issue in the Around The Nation column.  That question has been tossed around in high schools and all of the college divisions for a long time.  I think it primarily comes down to first, the difficulty a team faces in filling its schedule and secondly what the head coach thinks is best for his team.  Sometimes the coach gets it right and sometimes not!

In addition, while you are absolutely correct that Austin College has not made the Division III playoffs, I think it is worth noting that they were co-champions in the NAIA in 1981.  The game ended in a tie and both coaches had agreed prior to the contest that in the event of a tie they would call themselves Co-Champs.

A Platteville fan also e-mailed to mention an NAIA title.

I only have access to the D-III record book, which dates from 1973, but with different schools coming over at different times -- St. John's won the 1976 NAIA title, some PAC schools and the NWC was all NAIA in the 90s -- there is a part of history that's sort of vanished, from my perspective, but not from those of you who know it from being at the school.

Randolph-Macon, for instance, celebrates its 1969 undefeated Knute Rockne (Stagg precursor) Bowl team, so if you played there, you know those guys, but nobody else ever refers to that one championship R-MC won way back.

Was that a regional or national championship in 1969? Wasn't there a point early on when DIII was in its infancy that they had 2 regional champions, but no national. For like two years or something? Maybe I'm dreaming this up, but I thought I'd read that somewhere.

And there are several teams with great history in their NAIA days. Concordia-Moorehead has 3 NAIA national titles. I know UW-Lax has at least one, if not two in NAIA. Linfield and PLU each have multiple ones as well. There's a lot of 'forgotten' history both prior to 1973 and for teams who joined DIII post-'73. This is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 21, 2012, 01:51:22 PM
I've always been fascinated with the enrollment size discussion in DIII football. And whether it equates to on-field success. I was glad it was brought up in this week's ATN. One section I wanted to weigh in on was:

QuoteMichigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia are loaded with top-level D-I FBS and FCS programs, plus a D-II presence. That's a whole lot more competition for players than in Wisconsin, where there's UW-Madison, out-of-state schools and the WIAC.

It's no secret that the WIAC has a HUGE recruiting advantage given the lack of DI & DII football programs in this state. However, people tend to forget that the WIAC isn't the only DIII conference that has football programs in Wisconsin. In fact, there's three others: NAC, MWC, and the CCIW. I realize those other conferences may not be on the same competitive scale as the WIAC, specifically football. There are other options outside the WIAC and UW-Madison when it comes to college football in Wisconsin.

Interesting stuff, I'm glad it was brought up. It always seems to be a hot topic in d3boards. Also, if the NCAA does what "T Jordan" suggests, which is separate private and public schools into a DIII and DIV, would that really be a smart idea??? If that would happen, would Mount Union lose a game? EVER? In my opinion, that wouldn't solve anything. If it wasn't for public scools in DIII, Mount Union would be undefeated since 2005!!!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 21, 2012, 02:46:58 PM
There are other conferences with a Wisconsin presence but it's fair to say that in the past decade, the WIAC has separated itself even further than before from anyone else in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 21, 2012, 02:47:56 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on September 21, 2012, 01:51:22 PM
Also, if the NCAA does what "T Jordan" suggests, which is separate private and public schools into a DIII and DIV, would that really be a smart idea??? If that would happen, would Mount Union lose a game? EVER? In my opinion, that wouldn't solve anything. If it wasn't for public scools in DIII, Mount Union would be undefeated since 2005!!!

Let's just call 'T Jordan's' suggestion what it was...stupid.

I hate this whole idea of DIII and DIV. Who wants to have the latter designation? And I wouldn't want to dilute the competition in pursuit of a title. I want it to be as competitive as possible, because then should your team win, you know you've gone toe to toe with the best, in the largest division of NCAA football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 21, 2012, 02:49:58 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 21, 2012, 02:46:58 PM
There are other conferences with a Wisconsin presence but it's fair to say that in the past decade, the WIAC has separated itself even further than before from anyone else in Wisconsin.

Agreed...but there are other football options in Wisconsin. However, I didn't say they were great options  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 21, 2012, 02:51:16 PM
I think what most people who complain about state schools in Division III don't realize is that state schools actually make up a quarter of the division. This also stems from the some states that hold separate private and public championships (and the many more that used to). Dividing NCAA schools simply does not equate to dividing high schools.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 22, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
If they follow the rules and philosophies of D-3, they're D-3. Period. Paragraph.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 24, 2012, 10:16:23 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 22, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
If they follow the rules and philosophies of D-3, they're D-3. Period. Paragraph.

Yes. But that would have made a very short item for the column!

Another thing I did not mention is that the D-II Northern Sun schools in Minnesota and the scholarship Dakota/Illinois schools surely recruit Wisconsin a little bit ... and Michigan.

Yes, from 69-72, there were two small-school bowls, Knute Rockne and the Stagg Bowl. There was no national championship.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on September 25, 2012, 12:35:22 PM

QuoteMichigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia are loaded with top-level D-I FBS and FCS programs, plus a D-II presence. That's a whole lot more competition for players than in Wisconsin, where there's UW-Madison, out-of-state schools and the WIAC.


I was surprised Ohio wasn't listed here too as a state with serious competition from higher level schools. 

DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton (non-scholarship)
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College
16.  Urbana
17.  Ohio Dominican
18.  Cedarville
19.  Notre Dame College
20.  Ursuline
21.  Malone
22.  Walsh



Then adding in a bunch of D3 schools there is by my quick count 43 football playing colleges in Ohio:
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster
37.  Baldwin Wallace
38.  Bluffton
39.  Capital
40.  Case Westeren
41.  Defiance
42.  Dennison
43.  Heidelberg

NAIA
none



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 25, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: HScoach on September 25, 2012, 12:35:22 PM

QuoteMichigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia are loaded with top-level D-I FBS and FCS programs, plus a D-II presence. That's a whole lot more competition for players than in Wisconsin, where there's UW-Madison, out-of-state schools and the WIAC.


I was surprised Ohio wasn't listed here too as a state with serious competition from higher level schools. 

DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton (non-scholarship)
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College
16.  Urbana
17.  Ohio Dominican
18.  Cedarville
19.  Notre Dame College
20.  Ursuline
21.  Malone
22.  Walsh



Then adding in a bunch of D3 schools there is by my quick count 43 football playing colleges in Ohio:
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster
37.  Baldwin Wallace
38.  Bluffton
39.  Capital
40.  Case Westeren
41.  Defiance
42.  Dennison
43.  Heidelberg

NAIA
none

Very valid point.

Hadn't realized there was that much D-II in Ohio. Weren't some of those schools (Malone or Walsh) NAIA at one point?

I remember a coach being concerned about Lake Erie starting football. But I also remember Chuck Moore picking Mount over Kent and Akron ... so I think sometimes tradition outweighs the dangling of a partial or a full scholarship.

We often glaze over it by saying Ohio is a football state, but I should be mentioning it alongside Pennsylvania when I make this point.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 26, 2012, 12:30:31 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 24, 2012, 10:16:23 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 22, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
If they follow the rules and philosophies of D-3, they're D-3. Period. Paragraph.

Yes. But that would have made a very short item for the column!

Another thing I did not mention is that the D-II Northern Sun schools in Minnesota and the scholarship Dakota/Illinois schools surely recruit Wisconsin a little bit ... and Michigan.

Yes, from 69-72, there were two small-school bowls, Knute Rockne and the Stagg Bowl. There was no national championship.

Places like MN, IA and WI are not recruiting hotbeds. They produce a limited number of HS football players that can legitimately play college ball. States like Illinois, Ohio and Michigan simply produce a far greater number of legit college football talent. It's really just a population thing. Then you factor in the number of colleges (especially FBS, FCS and DII) and you get a sense of what kind of talent the population can support.

Population Numbers
IL: 12.9 mil
OH: 11.5 mil
MI: 9.8 mil

WI: 5.7 mil
MN: 5.3 Mil

IA: 3 mil

SD: .8 mil
ND: .7 mil

States like IL, OH and MI have multiple FBS, FCS or DII schools. They've also got 2-4 times as many people as WI, MN and IA. There's plenty of talent to go around.

Wisconsin has a slightly larger population than MN and only 1 FBS, FCS or DII football playing school. Lower population, but fewer schools competing for the resources. And as others have noted, Whitewater has a great location to Madison, Milwaukee and Chicago (so they can even dip into the IL talent pool). 02 Warhawk is right, it's either DI or DIII.

MN has 1 FBS and multiple DII's. IA has 2 FBS, 2 FCS (Drake is a weird one in that they don't offer scholarship) and several DII's.

Another factor that I think gets overlooked with MN and IA is that they are bordered by two states, South Dakota and North Dakota, with tiny populations and 2 FCS schools a piece, plus a smattering of DII's. These boarder states have to raid talent from MN and IA to fill their rosters due to their lack of instate talent/population.

Case in point, NDSU (Defending FCS National Champs) has 33 MN kids on their roster to 20 ND or 14 WI kids. SDSU has 17 MN kids and 15 IA kids to 5 Wis & 22 from SD.

Personally, I think the population to FBS/FCS/DII ratio is a much more significant factor than any of the others listed.

But bottom line, a school still has to recruit and ultimately coach up and develop the talent. You can have all the population ratio advantages, but junk coaching will kill you. Or you can have the disadvantages and close the gap through very good coaching. What's lethal is when you've got situations like UWW and historically UWL, who've taken advantage of both.

My 2¢
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 26, 2012, 12:36:10 AM
^^

Finally, here are the numbers of MN and WI recruits at DII, FCS, FBS schools in the area:

Duluth: 44 WI, 46 MN
Winona: 29 WI, 33 MN
Mankato: 29 WI, 26 MN
Southwest: 12 WI, 52 MN
Concordia: 19 WI, 34 MN
Augustana: 1 WI, 39 MN
Sioux Falls: 4 WI, 14 MN
Northern St: 3 WI; 18 MN
Bemidji: 21 WI, 51 MN
St. Cloud: 2 WI, 17 MN
Crookston: 6 WI, 25 MN
Morehead: 2 WI, 43 MN
Total: 172 WI v. 398 MN

NDSU: 14 WI, 33 MN
SDSU: 5 WI, 17 MN
UND: 13 WI, 29 MN
USD: 3 WI, 5 MN
UNI: 5 WI, 17 MN
Total: 40 WI v. 101 MN

So yes, Northern Sun and NoDak/SoDak FCS schools do recruit some Wisconsin athletes. But they far and away recruit more MN athletes. Which given proximity and population factors just makes sense.

Given the population numbers above, I think this is pretty telling information for explaining the quality of teams and depth in the WIAC. That, and schools having a 100 man roster limit means top to bottom more teams get access to the good players.

UST and SJU probably total close to 350 players between the two of them. I think Concordia tends to have similar numbers as well.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2012, 03:16:44 PM
Two cents? That was like 25 cents.

Reposting from the ASC board because the folks who are die-hard enough to surf over to the ATN board like to discuss such things:

Quote
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2012, 02:56:00 PM
Good job getting that for us five hours early!

No doubt. Breaking news is one of the things that's hard for us to do a lot of since all the writers and staffers have other jobs or business. It usually takes connections, time and work to break stuff. Good one here.

I see I'm not the first to suggest it, and unless I'm forgetting what Trinity and Austin's plans are, seems like affiliate football membership with the ASC is automatic if they want it and the ASC wants to keep its AQ. The two schools regain playoff AQ access, and conference awards, etc. and the ASC gets an eighth school to protect from another defector costing the AQ. The ASC has enough core members that adding affilates for football only would mean the ASC wouldn't have to lose its bid and wait two years to gain it back (hope I'm wording that correctly).

Only roadblock I see to that is if the schools don't want it. Austin left the ASC once already, but we'll see if they would rather be in a football conference and swallow their pride, or try to get eight random games a year. Trinity I'm guessing would welcome it since it scheduled UMHB, TLU and HPU this year ... fear of associating with not-like institutions or competitive disadvantages wouldn't seem to factor in. Games against teams in Texas make sense. Trinity and Austin would actually probably have some non-con dates open up if they went ASC.

100% speculation on my part. Makes too much sense.

If this were D-I, Wesley would join the ASC as an affiliate member for football. Geography, schmeography.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on September 27, 2012, 07:42:25 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 27, 2012, 03:16:44 PM
Two cents? That was like 25 cents.
would join the ASC as an affiliate member for football. Geography, schmeography.


Guess I was feeling generous  ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 28, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 27, 2012, 03:16:44 PM

Reposting from the ASC board because the folks who are die-hard enough to surf over to the ATN board like to discuss such things:

Quote
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2012, 02:56:00 PM
Good job getting that for us five hours early!

No doubt. Breaking news is one of the things that's hard for us to do a lot of since all the writers and staffers have other jobs or business. It usually takes connections, time and work to break stuff. Good one here.

I see I'm not the first to suggest it, and unless I'm forgetting what Trinity and Austin's plans are, seems like affiliate football membership with the ASC is automatic if they want it and the ASC wants to keep its AQ. The two schools regain playoff AQ access, and conference awards, etc. and the ASC gets an eighth school to protect from another defector costing the AQ. The ASC has enough core members that adding affilates for football only would mean the ASC wouldn't have to lose its bid and wait two years to gain it back (hope I'm wording that correctly).

Only roadblock I see to that is if the schools don't want it. Austin left the ASC once already, but we'll see if they would rather be in a football conference and swallow their pride, or try to get eight random games a year. Trinity I'm guessing would welcome it since it scheduled UMHB, TLU and HPU this year ... fear of associating with not-like institutions or competitive disadvantages wouldn't seem to factor in. Games against teams in Texas make sense. Trinity and Austin would actually probably have some non-con dates open up if they went ASC.

100% speculation on my part. Makes too much sense.

If this were D-I, Wesley would join the ASC as an affiliate member for football. Geography, schmeography.

Also repeating things I said over there:

(1) there will be four football-playing schools in the SCAC next year as Southwestern and Texas Lutheran come onboard.  Three of them left the ASC or the TIAA, the ASC's predecessor.
(2) Is football really important enough to the SCAC to align with the ASC just to get a bid?  None of the schools have shown the willingness to invest at the levels necessary to compete with the big gorilla, UMHB, and it seems unlikely that's going to change. 

I do wonder, though, if the ASC possibly losing its bid is enough to get Hardin-Simmons to THINK about a move to the SCAC.  They'd fit at least as well as the other recent additions to the conference and probably better.  Get a fifth football school and you might be able to get some of the other non-FB schools in the SCAC to think about it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on September 29, 2012, 12:52:06 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 28, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
(2) Is football really important enough to the SCAC to align with the ASC just to get a bid?  None of the schools have shown the willingness to invest at the levels necessary to compete with the big gorilla, UMHB, and it seems unlikely that's going to change. 
In an article i read where Nate Menkin was interviewed the interviewer made a comment about him not coming from a school known for football. Menkin corrected him and let him know UMHB is consistently a top 10 program. It was fantastic.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
Very much disagree with putting WIAC and OAC as conference a and 2 -- I do agree with the rest though.  And I think what makes the other conferences good or better than WIAC and OAC is the rotation of leadership.  The MIAC for example has had runs by St. Johns, Bethel, and now St. Thomas.  Same can be said for the E8. 

I only took the time to go back the last 6 seasons but the question remains what is the WIAC and OAC other than the doormats for Mount Union and UWW?  There hasn't been a different conference winner, and there's only been three other teams that have made it to the NCAA and two of which were bounced in Round 1. 

In my opinion -- if there's no inter-conference competition, then it is not a great conference. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on September 29, 2012, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
I only took the time to go back the last 6 seasons but the question remains what is the WIAC and OAC other than the doormats for Mount Union and UWW?  There hasn't been a different conference winner, and there's only been three other teams that have made it to the NCAA and two of which were bounced in Round 1. 

Part of the reason for that is the decreasing number of available slots in Pool C and the emphasis on filling most of those slots with 9-1 teams regardless of conference strength - an attitude which, thankfully, seems to be changing.  In 2005 Ohio Northern beat Mount Union during the regular season (a season in which Mount Union was the defending national champion, I believe) and didn't get into the playoffs because they finished 8-2. Mount won the national title that year, by the way.

Actually, the strength and depth of the two conferences in question works AGAINST many of those teams because it is so hard to get through conference play without two losses (Purple Power & whoever else). UW-Oshkosh last year was a very, very strong team that was undone by this very problem. So was Baldwind-Wallace, who led Mount Union in the fourth quarter AT MOUNT UNION and gave the Purple Raiders their toughest game until the national finals. You don't think that BW might have done some damage in the playoffs if they'd gotten in?

Go back a little further and you'll see a stretch of several seasons where the OAC runner up made the playoffs and won two-three games before running into Mount Union - I'm typing on my phone, or else I'd go look it up myself, but I'm sure that twice Capital and perhaps once John Carroll won several playoff games and NEVER lost to a team OTHER than Mount Union.

Re: your comment "what are the WIAC and OAC except doormats for UWW and Mount Union - if you lined up those teams top to bottom against any other Division III conference, they'll win more than they lose. I'd bet a whole lot of money on it. The middle of the pack teams from those conferences play tough non conference opponents and often win - even when they don't, they're often impressive. UW-LaCrosse, who has finished near the bottom of the WIAC for the past two seasons, won AT CCIW power North Central to open this season. Heck, last year they lot by a touchdown at Mary Hardin Baylor...and they went 2-5 in the WIAC!!! You're telling me that other WIAC teams wouldn't compete in the playoffs if they could actually just get a second team in?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: SUADC on September 29, 2012, 10:27:58 AM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on September 29, 2012, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
I only took the time to go back the last 6 seasons but the question remains what is the WIAC and OAC other than the doormats for Mount Union and UWW?  There hasn't been a different conference winner, and there's only been three other teams that have made it to the NCAA and two of which were bounced in Round 1. 

Part of the reason for that is the decreasing number of available slots in Pool C and the emphasis on filling most of those slots with 9-1 teams regardless of conference strength - an attitude which, thankfully, seems to be changing.  In 2005 Ohio Northern beat Mount Union during the regular season (a season in which Mount Union was the defending national champion, I believe) and didn't get into the playoffs because they finished 8-2. Mount won the national title that year, by the way.

Actually, the strength and depth of the two conferences in question works AGAINST many of those teams because it is so hard to get through conference play without two losses (Purple Power & whoever else). UW-Oshkosh last year was a very, very strong team that was undone by this very problem. So was Baldwind-Wallace, who led Mount Union in the fourth quarter AT MOUNT UNION and gave the Purple Raiders their toughest game until the national finals. You don't think that BW might have done some damage in the playoffs if they'd gotten in?

Go back a little further and you'll see a stretch of several seasons where the OAC runner up made the playoffs and won two-three games before running into Mount Union - I'm typing on my phone, or else I'd go look it up myself, but I'm sure that twice Capital and perhaps once John Carroll won several playoff games and NEVER lost to a team OTHER than Mount Union.

Re: your comment "what are the WIAC and OAC except doormats for UWW and Mount Union - if you lined up those teams top to bottom against any other Division III conference, they'll win more than they lose. I'd bet a whole lot of money on it. The middle of the pack teams from those conferences play tough non conference opponents and often win - even when they don't, they're often impressive. UW-LaCrosse, who has finished near the bottom of the WIAC for the past two seasons, won AT CCIW power North Central to open this season. Heck, last year they lot by a touchdown at Mary Hardin Baylor...and they went 2-5 in the WIAC!!! You're telling me that other WIAC teams wouldn't compete in the playoffs if they could actually just get a second team in?

If I was looking at this season alone, I would agree with middlerelief. I think looking at the top conferences currently and this season thus far, I definitely would not put the WIAC at 1, definitely top five. The OAC, not so much. Nevertheless, with UWW and Mount Union dominating their perspective conferences and the conference (OAC especially) lack of OOC games, you can only go by how they played against UWW and Mount Union.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 10:37:09 AM
ExTartan -- ultimately, there's really no way to "prove" the argument (which makes this a great chat board argument!) -- with the exception of teams scheduling out of conference games.

The most recent history which I will unfairly use would be Buff State, a .500 team in the east (NJAC and now E8) doing something that no one in the OAC, WIAC or MIAC could do, which is beat UWW. Further, the MIAC I believe is 4-0 against WIAC teams this year as well.

WIAC is not a great conference - it is a conference that has had one of the best All-Time Programs in UWW the last 7 years.  And the same can be said of Mount Union's conference (yes, it is Mount Union's Conference, not Ohio's)

If you want me to believe that the WIAC or OAC are great conferences, then show a different conference champ, and show better the next half decade in the tourney with other programs.  If you think WIAC and MUC are great conferences then you are also saying that ASC and the ACFC are as well . . . and they are not they just have 1 good program (MHB and Wesley)

I am not a "fan" of the MIAC (mostly because of St. Thomas but that's a different thread), but you can make the most well rounded argument for that conference being the best today than you can WIAC or OAC in my opine.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 29, 2012, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
Very much disagree with putting WIAC and OAC as conference a and 2 -- I do agree with the rest though.  And I think what makes the other conferences good or better than WIAC and OAC is the rotation of leadership.  The MIAC for example has had runs by St. Johns, Bethel, and now St. Thomas.  Same can be said for the E8. 

I only took the time to go back the last 6 seasons but the question remains what is the WIAC and OAC other than the doormats for Mount Union and UWW?  There hasn't been a different conference winner, and there's only been three other teams that have made it to the NCAA and two of which were bounced in Round 1. 

In my opinion -- if there's no inter-conference competition, then it is not a great conference.
Respectfully, "inter-"  or "intra-" conference?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HSCTiger74 on September 29, 2012, 04:12:32 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 29, 2012, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
Very much disagree with putting WIAC and OAC as conference a and 2 -- I do agree with the rest though.  And I think what makes the other conferences good or better than WIAC and OAC is the rotation of leadership.  The MIAC for example has had runs by St. Johns, Bethel, and now St. Thomas.  Same can be said for the E8. 

I only took the time to go back the last 6 seasons but the question remains what is the WIAC and OAC other than the doormats for Mount Union and UWW?  There hasn't been a different conference winner, and there's only been three other teams that have made it to the NCAA and two of which were bounced in Round 1. 

In my opinion -- if there's no inter-conference competition, then it is not a great conference.
Respectfully, "inter-"  or "intra-" conference?

Good question Ralph, but at this point I think you're trying to hold back the tide.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 29, 2012, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on September 29, 2012, 12:52:06 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 28, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
(2) Is football really important enough to the SCAC to align with the ASC just to get a bid?  None of the schools have shown the willingness to invest at the levels necessary to compete with the big gorilla, UMHB, and it seems unlikely that's going to change. 
In an article i read where Nate Menkin was interviewed the interviewer made a comment about him not coming from a school known for football. Menkin corrected him and let him know UMHB is consistently a top 10 program. It was fantastic.

(B-boy stance)

Not Division I =/= Not Known for Football
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 29, 2012, 06:49:29 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 10:37:09 AM
ExTartan -- ultimately, there's really no way to "prove" the argument (which makes this a great chat board argument!) -- with the exception of teams scheduling out of conference games.

Truest point that can possibly be made here.

Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 08:34:04 AM
I only took the time to go back the last 6 seasons but the question remains what is the WIAC and OAC other than the doormats for Mount Union and UWW?  There hasn't been a different conference winner, and there's only been three other teams that have made it to the NCAA and two of which were bounced in Round 1. 

I can think of two off top, without looking, that advanced, ONU in '10 and UW-SP in '08. It happened more in the mid-2000s, when No. 2 OAC teams would get in and make runs, but they have beat up on each other more in recent seasons and haven't had as many playoff bids. However, for a long time, that was a major factor in ranking the OAC where it is, that its No. 2 team always won in the playoffs until it faced Mount. (See John Carroll 2002 semis, Capital 05-06). BW went to the round of eight I believe, in 03 and lost to Wheaton. Otterbein was bounced vs. Franklin one year in an epic shootout ... I have all this data accessible if I want to research this, this is just me off top here.

But it's also fair to look beyond just the postseason, at in-season interconference competition. And because the OAC only schedules one non-con game, you get a better feel for the WIAC by who they play. And in the blurb both this year and last (or in '10), there's a reference to WHO WIAC teams play ... when their teams, top to bottom, are scheduling North Central, UMHB, St. Thomas, St. John's et. al. and going .500, that's impressive.

That said, I'm willing to allow that I put the WIAC 1st and OAC first because that's what I've always done. But you still have to consider the accomplishments of Whitewater and Mount. So when the standard is "well what have your other teams done?" ... then which other conference, once you take away its top team, regular sends a second team deep into the playoffs, where it wins? The CCIW? The MIAC? Maybe the E8.

In this five-conference discussion, I'd acknowledge that the CCIW and MIAC are top-to-bottom tougher than OAC. As acknolwedged in ATN, the OAC is carrying three teams at the bottom that have no history of recent success.

If the sole anti-OAC argument is depth, I'm willing to hear it, but I think you have to give UMU credit for beating whoever those other conferences throws at them (CCIW, MIAC champs) when those rotating No. 1s face off with them. And I think you have to take a closer look at the history of Ohio Northern, Baldwin Wallace, John Carroll, Capital and more recently Otterbein and Heidelberg.

In other words, as many times as we've given consideration to other conferences moving into the No. 2 spot, it hasn't happened since the NWC in '05 (I think) because we can never find enough reason to set aside the OAC's trump card.

The OAC has the rotation of success, among the schools mentioned above, and they are competitive with Mount Union. So basically the best argument we can come up with in favor of the CCIW or MIAC most years is that it's like an OAC but without the championship team at the top. Which means we score one for the OAC.

That's an oversimplification, as again, both conferences are deeper and have better middle or back-end strength. And I'm a huge proponent of that in the rankings, its why the WIAC is first and why the MIAC and CCIW always end up so high. But I can never reconcile it with the fact that the OAC, in any given year, has one of the two best teams in the country, plus a handful of strong teams behind it.

It's definitely something that comes up in discussion and analysis, and I don't think there's a perfect answer.

The discussion is good.

Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 10:37:09 AM
The most recent history which I will unfairly use would be Buff State, a .500 team in the east (NJAC and now E8) doing something that no one in the OAC, WIAC or MIAC could do, which is beat UWW. Further, the MIAC I believe is 4-0 against WIAC teams this year as well.

Sure, but you have to look at context. St. Thomas and St. John's beating UW-EC and River Falls is not the same as the MIAC's best beating the WIAC's best. So whenever I write that column, I look at and present the numbers, but I have to interpret the context of those numbers too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on September 29, 2012, 08:14:20 PM
Personally I think you over-ranked the SAA this year. B-SC is probably a top 5 south team, and Millsaps might be a top 10 team, although they did no better against Centre than W&L. But Centre is not last year's team. W&L handled them easily. Sewanee is still a building program, again one that W&L handled easily even given the almost identical playbooks, and the verdict is still out on Rhodes, although they could do nothing against B-SC offensively. Personally, I think they are mildly stronger than the ODAC this year, and that's only on the strength of B-SC. The ODAC's top 4 teams can play with Millsaps and Rhodes and would be .500 or better against Centre. Sewanee might go 1-3, but I think 0-4 is more likely. If you put Centre or Sewanee against the middle and bottom of the ODAC respectively, I think you'd go .500. Ranking them 8th is completely based on B-SC and one team is hard to make a conference.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 29, 2012, 11:09:14 PM
Quote from: jknezek on September 29, 2012, 08:14:20 PM
Personally I think you over-ranked the SAA this year. B-SC is probably a top 5 south team, and Millsaps might be a top 10 team, although they did no better against Centre than W&L. But Centre is not last year's team. W&L handled them easily. Sewanee is still a building program, again one that W&L handled easily even given the almost identical playbooks, and the verdict is still out on Rhodes, although they could do nothing against B-SC offensively. Personally, I think they are mildly stronger than the ODAC this year, and that's only on the strength of B-SC. The ODAC's top 4 teams can play with Millsaps and Rhodes and would be .500 or better against Centre. Sewanee might go 1-3, but I think 0-4 is more likely. If you put Centre or Sewanee against the middle and bottom of the ODAC respectively, I think you'd go .500. Ranking them 8th is completely based on B-SC and one team is hard to make a conference.

Actually ranking them eighth was almost entirely based on their 13-3 non-conference mark, when the NJAC was 5-10, the IIAC 10-14 and the MAC 4-6. Your assumption is pretty far off, but I actually agree with the conclusion.

I didn't expect the SAA to end up so high, but one thing I did differently than in past years was instead of putting one on the board, writing it, putting the next on the board, and instead of doing the entire ranking ... I wrote all the blurbs, did all the research, the spreadsheet and finished the column. Then the last thing I did was go back through and put numbers on the rankings, rearranging some as I saw fit.

I definitely don't think the SAA will hold that ranking over the years, but I also didn't think based on their starts to this season that the NJAC, MAC or IIAC was better. The ODAC, CC and SCAC over the years tended to be about the same, and the W&L/Centre result could favor the ODAC, but the week of the column, H-SC had come off a loss to Huntingdon, which lost to B-SC, which favors the SAA>ODAC and JHU had smashed my alma mater in Week 1, which meant CC > ODAC.

So you and I agree on "Personally, I think they are mildly stronger than the ODAC this year" but that also meant the SAA artificially jumped to the top of a pile where everybody is about the same.

The SAA could very easily be 16th or something next time we do these. That's why the average-over-time was a cool stat to include, IMO.

Was looking forward to your reaction though.

One thing
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on September 29, 2012, 11:19:45 PM
Interesting. I only chose the ODAC as a comparison because it's what I know and I saw the 2 W&L crossover games, one over the computer and one live. I still don't think SAA should have been 8th. And you'll notice I'm not saying you misranked the ODAC because, if anything, the ODAC might be a level or 2 high as well in my opinion. E&H and Bridgewater went undefeated out of conference, but not against stiff competition. W&L flubbed a winnable game as happens too often. R-MC just got killed in their one quality opponent, and H-SC, well after tonight I'm not even going to comment. I just think the SAA was only 2 notches, maybe 3, above the ODAC based on what I've seen, mainly on B-SC probably winning the ODAC. These rankings are all for fun of course, and I just wanted to provide some feedback.

Short of B-SC though, I just don't see it for the SAA this year. I think a down year Trinity team takes all of them but B-SC, who I think will come up short against Wesley on the road (nothing to be ashamed of there and kudos for the schedule!). I'm hoping to get to the Trinity at B-SC game, so hopefully I'll put eyes on two good South Region teams, even given Trinity's troubles. I'll say this for the SAA, they did get off to a nice start and at I do have two of them in my South Region poll (although I don't expect Millsaps to be there at season end) and until this week was still keeping a close eye on a third (Rhodes).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 30, 2012, 12:53:10 AM
Quote from: jknezek on September 29, 2012, 11:19:45 PM
I still don't think SAA should have been 8th.

Let me stop right here. Who do you think should have been ahead of the SAA?

Because this happens all the time with polls, Pat and I discuss it all the time. I rank the eight most powerful teams in the country and then I go "ehh, I don't think Wabash is a top-ten team per se, but I can only think of eight team I would rank ahead of them, so I reluctantly put them here at No. 9."

The SAA doesn't seem like the eighth-best conference to me either, anecdotally. But when evaluated against the credentials of the other conferences to date this season, that's where they landed.

I'm willing to not be right on this, I just want to hear a good case for who is preferred ahead of them and why.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 30, 2012, 12:54:43 AM
Last week I abandoned the ATN top 50 because the rankings column took fooorreevverrr ... at it always does.

Anyway these blurbs will be out of date by next Thursday, but the factoids are still interesting.

Week 4 vote, ATN 50 comment
UMU ..... Allowed only 7 points; doesn't play a team with winning record until Oct. 20
UMHB   .... First three opponents made 2011 playoffs; outscored 115-60.
Linfield .. Gave up 65 points past two games; Next 4 opponents are 11-1.
Wesley ... Different offense without Shane McSweeny, but QB Justin Sotillare led winning FG drive

Yeah that's as far as I got with the blurbs but still ...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on September 30, 2012, 10:01:52 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 30, 2012, 12:53:10 AM

Let me stop right here. Who do you think should have been ahead of the SAA?

Because this happens all the time with polls, Pat and I discuss it all the time. I rank the eight most powerful teams in the country and then I go "ehh, I don't think Wabash is a top-ten team per se, but I can only think of eight team I would rank ahead of them, so I reluctantly put them here at No. 9."

The SAA doesn't seem like the eighth-best conference to me either, anecdotally. But when evaluated against the credentials of the other conferences to date this season, that's where they landed.

I'm willing to not be right on this, I just want to hear a good case for who is preferred ahead of them and why.

I think the NJAC, MAC and maybe even the Centennial are better. The top of the NJAC plays B-SC competitively. Rowan, Cortland and Kean are all better than Millsaps, Rhodes and Center. Brockport probably is too, certainly better than Rhodes and Sewanee. So again, with the exception of B-SC, the NJAC is going to beat up on the rest of the SAA. I wouldn't mind seeing a Western Conn vs Sewanee game. Rowan lost out of division, Cortland lost the first game of the season, and Kean held UMHB to one of their lowest offensive outputs of the season. I know the out of conference percentages aren't as good, but the NJAC is just better and played harder teams in my opinion.

The MAC similarly is strong. Lycoming, and Widener are going to be a match for B-SC. Del Val, Albright, and Leb Valley take out the middle of the SAA most of the time, Stephenson and Misericordia are the only ones that Sewanee would match up with physically. Again, the percentages aren't there, but these teams played harder OOC and there are more (3 teams at the bottom instead of 1) that rack up losses because the conference is just bigger. Plus the MAC just doesn't play a lot of OOC, so they are already beating up on each other before most teams seasons even start.

The Centennial is my even matchup with the SAA. Both have 1 power team, JHU and B-SC, and I think B-SC wins but it's close. Gettysburg vs Millsaps would be interesting, I have no way of comparing them. Then the middle of the conference the Muhles, F&M etc are going to have no trouble with Centre. I watched both F&M and Centre play W&L. While F&M won because it was at home and the first game of the season, they were a better team in week 1 than Centre a few weeks later. I'd like to see Moravian and Susquehanna play Sewanee.

When it all boils out, I don't think the SAA played that hard of an OOC schedule through week 3. I also think since there are so few of them, some advantageous scheduling really made them look better than they were.

B-SC played Lagrange (mid-USAS, bleh) and Ave Maria (uggh). Plus one good game against Huntingdon at home. Millsaps played MC (down year), Lagrange again, and Point (uggh). There is very little here to judge. These teams should win these weak OOCs just like E&H and Bridgewater against there's. Centre arguably played a harder schedule with Bethany (mid PAC), W&L (mid/top ODAC) and Rose-Hulman (bleh), and they went 2-1 losing to the stiffest competition they faced. Rhodes played Wash U in a very down year and Claremont, both at home. Long trip for Claremont, a mid tier at best team. Then they got steamed-rolled by the only good competition they faced, B-SC. Sewanee played a weak Puget Sound, at home after a long trip, got rolled by their only good competition in W&L, and lost to a mid-tier, at best USAS team, Maryville.

When I look at who the SAA played, I'm not surprised they had a good OOC record. Between them, they played 3 games that might be considered difficult, Huntingdon and the two W&L games and went 1-2. Other than that, Bethany might be their best opponent collectively. Doesn't really say much when you look beyond the OOC record and who they really took down.

I'm not saying the SAA isn't good, I just think they're OOC record had them ranked over conferences that were much more challenged, and, in my opinion, wouldn't struggle top versus top, middle versus middle, bottom versus bottom except for a very good B-SC. As for doing the rankings, I have the same problem when I do the South Region Fan Pool. 1-3 are pretty set, 4-6 are somewhat interchangeable, as are 7-9, and 10-20 could be any number of teams so I just pick one to fill that last spot.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 01, 2012, 08:40:28 PM
On the podcast, you and Pat talked about Pool B. As long as there are enough teams that in conferences that are re-arranging, we will have Pool B. We wil never get all of the teams herded into Pool A conferences.  Colleges are like cats that way. You cannot herd them. The good thing this year for Pool B is that it is full of worthy teams who have managed to play each other.

There most likely will be a head-to-head match up that goes a long way in designating the strongest team.

As for the number of Pool C bids, the NEFC realized that it was "leaving a bid on the table, all these many years".  Well, now they want to claim it.  There are so few 7- and 8-team conferences, it is not like we have been lax in the allocation of Pool C bids.  Nine and ten team conferences for football are the norm!  (And you have cited this in your columns elsewhere.) It is the popularity of the Pools and the AQ system that has seen so many schools offer football. There is no doubt that we have many more D-3 STUDENT-athletes playing football now than we did in the late 1990's, when the Pools were established.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 01, 2012, 09:51:20 PM
There may always be a Pool B, but there may not always be a Pool B bid. When Pool B is just Wesley, Macalester and Presentation, there won't be a bid set aside.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 02, 2012, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 01, 2012, 08:40:28 PM
We wil never get all of the teams herded into Pool A conferences.  Colleges are like cats that way. You cannot herd them.

The point I was making was that we very nearly had them all herded. Had the SAA decided not to pull its stunt, this season would have been down to four indies, including Huntingdon, which is headed to a conference, Presentation and Macalester, which disassociated themselves from conferences, and Wesley which is stuck until it can make the CAC a football conference.

Frostburg, Salisbury, Wesley, CNU and Southern Virginia make five. The CAC I bet could have Gallaudet if it wanted it, as the travel in the ECFC is absurd by comparison. Then they either have to poach CUA from the ODAC or find a seventh school.

Then the UAA four have picked their alignments.

So basically in 2015 or so, if the SCAC indies would get under the ASC umbrella for purposes of AQ access, everyone would be linked up again, no? Who am I forgetting that isn't referenced above?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 02, 2012, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: George Thompson on September 30, 2012, 06:39:18 PM
Keith,

I have admired your work for a long time.    But, I would love to see a matchup of this year's NWC against any other conference.   For the last 10 years, my Linfield has dominated the conference.   But this year, after four games, four of our seven teams are 4-0.   And, PLU's two losses came against Top 10 teams!

Also, the NWC has had two national champions since we joined D-3 in 1998, more than any other conference, except for Mt. Union and Wisconsin-Whitewater.   And, we did it with two different teams!   No other conference can claim that.   During PLU's championship run in 1999, their toughest playoff game was in conference vs. Willamette, 28-24.   Plus, they won all five playoff games on the road.   Mt. Union nor Wisconsin-Whitewater have done that.

The NWC was dominate in the NAIA in the 1980s and 1990s, but, as a whole, tailed off in the 2000s.    Now, it appears our whole conference strength is back.     

GO CATS! GO!

I was around for both the 1999 and 2004 playoff runs and have taken all the facts you state into account when producing the rankings. The thing that's different now than it was then is that you have Pacific, which is brand new, and Puget Sound, which is not competitve. At times, there were very bad years from Menlo and L&C that had to be factored in, and there were no longer championship-level teams to balance it out.

Based on where things stood as I wrote the column last week, I think 5th was appropriate for the NWC, as it was two steps up from where it started the season. Many of the non-con games come against the SCIAC and ASC, which are good things.

The MIAC and Empire 8 have conference depth and non-con records that stack up against the NWC (please see the column) and have the top-level teams to match. The E8 sent two teams to the final eight last year and is off to a great start. The MIAC shot up to No. 3 because it hasn't lost a non-con game.

Here's the NWC blurb. I know you're an NWC fan so you want to see them recognized as the best, but I think fifth is very fair, especially given that the NWC's depth of good teams this year is not something that's always true.
Quote
5. NORTHWEST CONFERENCE (NWC)

Kickoff '12 ranking: 7th
High- and low-water marks: Second in 2005, seventh in 2012.
Average ranking, 2002-'12: 4.5
Non-conference record to date: 14-5
Verdict: Solid wins from top to bottom, with Linfield beating both Hardin-Simmons (ASC) and Cal Lutheran (SCIAC), Pacific Lutheran beating Redlands (SCIAC) and Pacific beating Occidental (SCIAC). Willamette's beaten two Texas teams, Whitworth has beaten St. Scholastica (UMAC), which went 10-1 last season. Except for Puget Sound, the entire conference has kicked in to the NWC's strong non-league showing this September.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2012, 04:02:19 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on September 29, 2012, 10:37:09 AM
If you want me to believe that the WIAC or OAC are great conferences, then show a different conference champ, and show better the next half decade in the tourney with other programs.

Here's where this argument is flawed. Literally no one else, save for ONU in 2005 and UW-SP in 2008 has beaten Mount Union or UW-Whitewater since 2005. So the standard of "your conference isn't good because you can't beat MU or UWW" must be applied to other conferences' champions as well.

And none of them, in five tries a year, ever beat UW-W or UMU, which cancels out the usefulness of that argument.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 04, 2012, 06:28:25 AM
K-Mack:  You should know better than to apply logic to an argument in here ::)

In my less than humble opinion, here's how I'd rank rank them:

1.  WIAC
2. vacated because no one is worthy
3.  Keith's list
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 04, 2012, 01:52:59 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 04, 2012, 06:28:25 AM
K-Mack:  You should know better than to apply logic to an argument in here ::)

In my less than humble opinion, here's how I'd rank rank them:

1.  WIAC
2. vacated because no one is worthy
3.  Keith's list

So true, re: logic. Although this particular thread tends to be flooded with wise thoughts, which I appreciate.

If only the people would accept a list with a blank spot ... I might never fill in a No. 9 team on any top 25 ballot I turn in. Just to put some air between the teams that have a shot, and those that might win a few playoff games. Give or take three or four teams.

Also, as we see in the new ATN (coming out later today), dominating your conference for more than one season is not all that uncommon.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 06, 2012, 02:49:13 PM
I agree with K-Mack on that one about a blank space to represent what always appears to be a wide gap in teams.

1a and 1b: MUC UWW

2) Vacant

T-3) MHB, Wesley, Linfield

Then you could say a list of repeated playoff contenders that make runs every so often: Bethel, STU, Wheaton, SJF etc.

Then a larger gap for the rest of the field
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 06, 2012, 05:34:20 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 06, 2012, 02:49:13 PM
I agree with K-Mack on that one about a blank space to represent what always appears to be a wide gap in teams.

1a and 1b: MUC UWW

2) Vacant

T-3) MHB, Wesley, Linfield

Then you could say a list of repeated playoff contenders that make runs every so often: Bethel, STU, Wheaton, SJF etc.

Then a larger gap for the rest of the field

Not sure UWW is up with Mount this year. And I'd put UMHB right with Mount.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 06, 2012, 06:12:09 PM
Yes for this year for sure -- was thinking more along the lines of a last several seasons or so ranking.

Regardless -- I don't think there is too much doubt who the top 2 to 5 are, this season or the last decade.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on October 07, 2012, 09:00:46 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 06, 2012, 06:12:09 PM
Yes for this year for sure -- was thinking more along the lines of a last several seasons or so ranking.

Regardless -- I don't think there is too much doubt who the top 2 to 5 are, this season or the last decade.
I'd agree with the top 2, but after that I think it's wide open. It's a good thing this all gets played out on the field.As we've seen this seaon ....on any given Saturday...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 07, 2012, 10:39:45 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on October 07, 2012, 09:00:46 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 06, 2012, 06:12:09 PM
Yes for this year for sure -- was thinking more along the lines of a last several seasons or so ranking.

Regardless -- I don't think there is too much doubt who the top 2 to 5 are, this season or the last decade.
I'd agree with the top 2, but after that I think it's wide open. It's a good thing this all gets played out on the field.As we've seen this seaon ....on any given Saturday...

I think this is shaping up to be one of the more exciting seasons in recent memory. Mount and UMHB seem very good. But it has a feeling of being wide open, I love the level of unpredictability we've got this year. We really haven't seen something like this for a few years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 07, 2012, 05:47:39 PM
Yes - this on the surface has that feeling of wide open

And would like to regress back to the "toughest conference" discussion that was held last week -- the only team to score on MUC this season was a NON-OAC team.  The OAC may be host to one of the toughest programs of all time, but it is not the toughest conference.

Back to this week -- Bethel fan, congrats on the exciting win - and regrets to Concordia which will be really tough to get over -- I really respect that BU went for the win and not the time -- I really hope you guys (along with every remaining team in the MIAC) can beat STU this year.  Good luck.


Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 08, 2012, 06:56:00 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 07, 2012, 05:47:39 PM
Yes - this on the surface has that feeling of wide open

And would like to regress back to the "toughest conference" discussion that was held last week -- the only team to score on MUC this season was a NON-OAC team.  The OAC may be host to one of the toughest programs of all time, but it is not the toughest conference.

Back to this week -- Bethel fan, congrats on the exciting win - and regrets to Concordia which will be really tough to get over -- I really respect that BU went for the win and not the time -- I really hope you guys (along with every remaining team in the MIAC) can beat STU this year.  Good luck.

Before you write off the OAC this season, please note that Mount's schedule is very back loaded.  They opened with the very bottom of the conference teams.   The last half of the schedule, specifically weeks 7, 8 and 9 will see much tougher opponents.   

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

The best program does not dictate the best conference.  I know that stings many in the rust belt that wear their beating with pride with the idea being that if it weren't for MUC they really would have a shot -- and in the the event as you're reading it you think it may sound foolish . . . is because it is foolish.

OAC is home to the best program, maybe of all time in Mount Union.  It is not home to the best conference. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 08, 2012, 09:53:39 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

If your definition of "better" is "more competitive within itself" then yes. If your definition of "better" is "more competitive with other conferences" then your hypothetical tells us 100% of nothing. The strength of a conference lies in its non-conference games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 08, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

The best program does not dictate the best conference.  I know that stings many in the rust belt that wear their beating with pride with the idea being that if it weren't for MUC they really would have a shot -- and in the the event as you're reading it you think it may sound foolish . . . is because it is foolish.

OAC is home to the best program, maybe of all time in Mount Union.  It is not home to the best conference.
I will agree that the best program does not dictate the best conference... but your argument isn't correct either. The NEFC has produced 8 different champions in the past 12 years and had 13 out of 16 teams have played in the conference championship game... does that make them a better conference than the OAC and their lone champion in the same time period? While the best program doesn't dictate the best conference, neither does only conference results dictate the best conference. The most exciting and unpredictable maybe but not the best.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 09, 2012, 06:53:56 AM
Non-Conference Games that include:  NC Wesleyan, Mt. Saint Joseph, Case Western Reserve, Wooster, Alma, and on and on

In the event WIAC and OAC wished to show they are tops, then perhaps the tops could have played each other when they both had a bye week (9/8) but opted not to.  UWW instead scheduled big time out of conference foe Buff State.  At least MHB & Wesley had the stones to schedule each other.

Why the best conference is such a good post patterns topic is that there's no way to prove it -- when a mind is made up, they will see things that support that argument.  My mind is made up that being a door mat for a decade plus does not make up a good conference.  Is the NEFC Boyd? I don't know for sure, but I do know the coaches know how to be competitive with one another, and when they've made the playoffs have seen them put wins up on other conferences such as the E8 champ once in the dance. 



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 09, 2012, 09:29:55 AM


Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

The best program does not dictate the best conference.  I know that stings many in the rust belt that wear their beating with pride with the idea being that if it weren't for MUC they really would have a shot -- and in the the event as you're reading it you think it may sound foolish . . . is because it is foolish.

OAC is home to the best program, maybe of all time in Mount Union.  It is not home to the best conference.

Writing off the OAC simply because Mount has consistently won the conference is an overly simplistic and incorrect view.

Who wins the conference championship is not the only sign of conference strength.  Balance, yes.  But not strength.  You dismiss the OAC simply because they can't beat Mount?  Well then you can dismiss the rest of D3 outside of the WIAC for the last few years.     Since 1996, there have been exactly five (5) teams that have beaten Mount Union, and only one of them has done it multiple times:
Whitewater (WAIC) – 4 times
Ohio Northern (OAC) - once
Mary Hardin Baylor (ASC) - once
St John's (MIAC) - once
Rowan (NJAC) - once

So outside of the WIAC, the OAC has done exactly what the rest of the nation has done against Mount.  Beaten them every once in a while.   

Here's a brief synopsis of the last 20 years of Mount results in terms of toughest/closest games that season and what conference that team was from.   If you take the time to read it, you'll see that the OAC has often provided the toughest test for Mount.  Not always, but the conference has often put up as tough a fight as the best playoff teams from around the nation.

2011 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 14-6
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 25-20
Wesley (ind):  Mount win 28-21
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 13-10
     
2010 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Marietta  (OAC)  :  Mount win 28-14
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 31-21
Next closest regular season game was Otterbein (OAC) by 18 pts, next closest playoff game was 20 pts

2009 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Capital  (OAC)  :  Mount win 28-21
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 38-28
no other team, including playoffs, was closer than 17 pts.

2008 – National Champion (15-0)
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount win 31-26
No other team, playoffs included, closer than 21 pts

2007 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 31-21
No other team, playoffs included, closer than 24 pts

2006 – National Champion (15-0)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 14-0
Capital  (OAC) in Round 3  :  Mount win 17-14
St. John Fisher (E-8):  Mount win 26-14
    NOTE:  beat Whitewater (WIAC) by 19 in Stagg

2005 – National Champion (14-1)
Ohio Northern  (OAC):  Mount loss 21-14 
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 17-3
Capital  (OAC) in Round 3  :  Mount win 34-31
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount win 31-26

2004 – Semi-Finalist (12-1)
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-27
Mary Hardin Baylor (ASC):  Mount loss 38-35 to runner-up

2003 – National Runner-up (13-1)
St. John's (MIAC):  Mount loss 24-6
Only decent games were John Carroll  (OAC)   34-16 and Baldwin Wallace  (OAC) 24-0.   No other team, including playoffs, was closer.

2002 – National Champion (14-0)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 28-21
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 35-16
Capital  (OAC)  :  Mount win 38-22
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 34-24
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 21 pts.  Beat John Carroll  (OAC) in semi-finals.

2001 – National Champions (14-0)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 17-3
Bridgewater (ODAC):  Mount win 30-27
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 21 pts

2000 – National Champions (14-0)
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-31
Wittenberg (NCAC):  Mount win 32-15
St. John's (MIAC):  Mount win 10-7
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 24 pts.  Beat Ohio Northern   (OAC)    in Round 1

1999 -  Semi-Finalist (12-1)
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 57-51 in  3 OT's 
Augustana (CCIW):  Mount win 42-33
Rowan (NJAC):  Mount loss 24-17 in OT to runner-up
Played Ohio Northern   (OAC)    in 2nd round of playoffs.

1998 – National Champion (14-0)
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 21-14
Albion (MIAA):  Mount win 21-19
Wittenberg (NCAC):  Mount win 21-19
Trinity Tx (ASC):  Mount win 34-29
    NOTE:  beat Rowan (NJAC) by 20 in Stagg

1997 – National Champions (14-0)
Allegheny (NCAC):  Mount win 34-30
Closest regular season game 38-14 over Ohio Northern  (OAC)  .  Other than Allegheny, no playoff game within 45 pts.  Played John Carroll   (OAC)    in 2nd round of playoffs.

1996 – National Champion (14-0)
Allegheny (NCAC):  Mount win 31-26
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 18 pts.
     NOTE:  beat Rowan by 32 in Stagg

1995 – Semi-Finalist (12-1)
Marietta  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-37
Wisc La Crosse (WIAC):  Mount loss 20-17 to eventual champs
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 21 pts

1994 – Regional Finalist (10-2)
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-35
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC):  Mount loss 23-10 
Allegheny (NCAC):  Mount win 38-19
Albion (MIAA):  Mount loss 34-33 to eventual champs

1993 – National Champs (14-0)
Heidelberg  (OAC)  :  Mount win 24-7
Albion (MIAA):  Mount win 30-16
Rowan (NJAC):  Mount win 34-24

1992 – Semi-Finalist (12-1)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 23-14
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 24-14
Wisc La Crosse (WIAC):  Mount loss 29-24 to eventual champs
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 17 pts.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 09, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 09, 2012, 06:53:56 AM
Non-Conference Games that include:  NC Wesleyan, Mt. Saint Joseph, Case Western Reserve, Wooster, Alma, and on and on

In the event WIAC and OAC wished to show they are tops, then perhaps the tops could have played each other when they both had a bye week (9/8) but opted not to.  UWW instead scheduled big time out of conference foe Buff State.  At least MHB & Wesley had the stones to schedule each other.
They couldn't play when they had a bye week because they already had a full schedule of 10 games. The OAC only have 1 non-conference game a year and teams like Mount Union often have those games scheduled a few years in advance (I believe the home and home deal with Franklin for 2012-13 was announced in 2010)

QuoteWhy the best conference is such a good post patterns topic is that there's no way to prove it -- when a mind is made up, they will see things that support that argument.  My mind is made up that being a door mat for a decade plus does not make up a good conference.  Is the NEFC Boyd? I don't know for sure, but I do know the coaches know how to be competitive with one another, and when they've made the playoffs have seen them put wins up on other conferences such as the E8 champ once in the dance.

There is no way to prove it unless every team played every other team which isn't possible for just 2 conferences let alone all of them. Until a system is created that allows teams to play 240 games in a season then there will be some subjectivity in rankings whether it be conferences or teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sigma one on October 09, 2012, 11:10:02 PM
The scheduling discussion is always fascinating, and part of it so because some posters think that School A can Schedule School B--out of conference--just by making a phone call.  It appears that over time some feel that scheduling is that easy.  It's way more complicated, of course.  (And even those who want the quality match ups I think realize this.) 1.  Both schools have to agree to meet.  2. Both schools have to fit the games into their schedules, which are already often very full, and dictated within the conference, including the dates, by the conference office.  The conference sets the conference schedule; the schools then search for outside of conference opponents.  3. Some conferences have agreements with other conferences to cross-schedule.  The NCAC/UAA multi-year agreement is one, perhaps within the NCAA extreme, example.  And not always to the fans' or coaches' liking.  Football coaches generally do not on their own schedule games with out-of-conference opponents.  They don't have that kind of freedom   It's not just one coach (or AD) calling another and saying let's play. And usually it's the ADs who do the scheduling, while consulting with the coach.  And frequently, though I can't say how frequently, there is consultation all the way up to the president of the school about the wisdon of scheduling an opponent.  Budgets matter; travel (geography) matters, and the two are almost always related. Not for everyone, but for a good number of schools.  Some schools only want to schedule "like institutions," however they define that term.
     All this is to say that scheduling is not just a matter of let's play them because the fans think it would be a fantastic idea to see a certain match up.  What we often see when teams travel long distances is a consequence of those teams needing games because, usually weaker, team closer to home will not schedule them as one of their only out-of-conference games.  So, the Wisconsin schools travel or play non DIII opponents to fill up their schedules.  And the strong programs from, say, Texas, end up home and home with schools from the West Coast.  Often these are quality match ups because the weaker teams from those areas won't schedule a strong team from another area.  Mary Hardin-Baylor goes west to play a quality opponent, but not Pacific or LaVerne (no disrespect)!  This is so because teams within a shorter distance won't schedule them.  And as this year, there's the Wesley match ups, and the Huntingdon, because they are not affiliated with a conference and must seek games, and it's only strong opponents who will schedule them (and those opponents themselves can't get games closer to home preciselly because they are strong, too).
      The fans' desire of I can't understand why A just won't schedule B is fun to debate but ultimately constrained by lots of factors--and those doing the scheduling frankly don't care much about you and I wanted to see the big boys clash.  Again, most of the quality early-season match ups (I'm not saying all--see Franklin's scheduling, as one example) are as much a product of necessity as of anything. Finally, with the playoff system set up the way it is, it's dangerous for schools to lose too many games.  Some places will decide it's better to schedule weaker, closer opponents, if they can, out of conference in the hope of winning their out of conference game(s) and their league, no matter that their playoff loss is by a big margin.  After all, they still are in the playoffs.
       Just one example of which I am aware.  A couple of year ago Wabash was having trouble finding an opening game to fill out a 10-game schedule.  They tried for quite some time.  Then, because of a opening at Hanover, Wabash and Hanover decided to play the first game of the year--for Wabash Week 1 is only open date (mybe for Hanover as well).  The two are both Indiana schools.  Travel is minimal.  They could renew an old rivalry that was lost when Wabash joined the NCAC.  I'm guessing the thinking on both sides was the same.  Better than both looking farther away, and some of the choices for Wabash were very far away and would have been a last resort--even if they had agreed to play--and several had already said they would not because of their perception of Wabash's strength.   Just one example, maybe not completely representative, but probably pretty close.  You think Wesley, or Redlands, or Huntingdon, or Hardin-Simmons, etc.  wouldn't like to stay closer to home if they could arrange a schedule that allowed them to?  I don't know, but I think the answer is yes, despite the temptation to give the players a plane trip and a view of another part of the country--just about the only positives I can see for scheduling teams so far away.  Yes, I know another answer is to see our strength against theirs, and this is sometimes in a coaches' mind, but often this at odds with the institution's philosophy of sport, particularly when (hate to say this) their athletic program has to balance many teams, men's and women's.
     This is longer than I planned when I started, but perhaps it gives us reason to continue the conversation.           
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 09, 2012, 11:43:57 PM
Good dive into the issues. One thing I noticed, though -- I don't think you are correct about who does the scheduling. When I look on our open dates pages, it's almost exclusively coaches, not athletic directors.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sigma one on October 10, 2012, 09:39:36 AM
Thaks, Pat.  I know about that.  What I think, and I can't speak for every school, of course, is that the coaches talk to one another--and sometimes so too do the ADs.  From what I know, often the Ads say to the coaches, go ahead and finish this up.  I am sure it varies from school to school, but I am almost certain that there is serious conversation about scheduling and that coaches are not acting usually acting on their own.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: sigma one on October 10, 2012, 09:50:59 AM
Pat, sorry for the back to backs.  My knowledge is pretty small, and yours is pretty big.  So I would not be surprised that at more schools that I know what you say is true--that is, coaches do the scheduling.  Still, football is important as a public sport, and I doubt there is not conversation because the ADs sign the "contract."   As you know I am sure, all contests are cemented by a letter from the home AD (or his/her designate) to the visiting team's AD--unless I am mistaken and some ADs turn over that responsibility to the coach as well.  With so many schools playing football and so many different sports representing an institution, practices may vary widely.  Maybe someone else can chime in on their awareness.
      I am open to correction if my sample is not representative.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 11, 2012, 11:21:55 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on September 29, 2012, 06:49:29 PM
But it's also fair to look beyond just the postseason, at in-season interconference competition. And because the OAC only schedules one non-con game, you get a better feel for the WIAC by who they play. And in the blurb both this year and last (or in '10), there's a reference to WHO WIAC teams play ... when their teams, top to bottom, are scheduling North Central, UMHB, St. Thomas, St. John's et. al. and going .500, that's impressive.

Not to mention the 2 or 3 scholarship offering schools the WIAC has played this year (DII and NAIA).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 11, 2012, 05:41:11 PM
Hey K-Mack, enjoyed the latest column as always, a bit perplexed on the comment about a D3 sort being difficult on Massey.  Try this, which is fairly easy to get to from the main CF page if you click the "NCAA III" option on the right pulldown menu:

http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&yr=2012&sub=11620

The NESCAC teams get way too much love here, as you'll see ... their top ten is

Trinity CT
Middlebury
M Hardin-Baylor
Wesley DE
Amherst
Bates   
Linfield
Johns Hopkins
Wesleyan CT
Mt Union
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 11, 2012, 06:52:28 PM
Massey used to punt the NESCAC to its own little world in the day since they were 'unconnected'.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 11, 2012, 08:42:54 PM
If I had more ambition, I have the methodological and statistical background to try to decipher by what bizarre metric Massey can have 5 'intramural' teams in his nationwide top 10!  But I just don't care enough about a program that can have even actual compete-against-each-other d3 teams come out with Johns Hopkins two slots above Mount Union! :P

People care about Massey, why?  Is Lindy's too high-brow? ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 11, 2012, 08:54:09 PM
Mr Yipsi you don't have to look real hard. The computer rankings require an OOC "score" for the conference based on performance. If he set that score to 0, since they play no OOC schedule, they would be at the back of the rankings. Those rankings must set the score to 100 as a default, therefore they have a perfect conference OOC, making them the best conference in the country. They then further benefit from the faulty math inherent in each game being a zero sum for the conference, one win, one loss. So in every season, the conference has to be .500 overall. If you add those two together, the faulty logic gives you top teams.

It's a perfect example of what a computer science professor would call GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. The computer can measure the data provided, and in respect to the NESCAC, part of the assumptions backing the data is flawed, so you get Garbage Out.

Just ignore those rankings. They have no meaning in comparison to the rest of the rankings.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 11, 2012, 08:59:35 PM
I just remove the NESCAC from Massey in my mind. The methodology is pretty sound otherwise.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on October 12, 2012, 02:35:20 AM
A little more info on some of the ranking systems out there!

I keep a spreadsheet to help me with my picks in the ASC Pickems and for my ballots in the South Region Top Ten Fan Poll.  I use four computer programs - LAZ, Born, Atomic and a new one I found called Tale of the Tape at www.compughterratings.com.  Each week I give each of the spreads of the games in the ASC Pickems a score of 1 to 4 (1 being closest) depending on their closeness to the final actual spread of the contests.  At this point the scores are:

1)   Tale of the Tape    121
2)   Atomic     121
3)   LAZ   147
4)   Born   166

As far as picking wins from the 56 games so far, they rank as follows:

1)   Tale of the Tape  45  80.4%
2)   Atomic  44  78.6%
3)   Born   43   76.8%
4)   LAZ   40    71.4%
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 12, 2012, 09:36:52 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

The best program does not dictate the best conference.  I know that stings many in the rust belt that wear their beating with pride with the idea being that if it weren't for MUC they really would have a shot -- and in the the event as you're reading it you think it may sound foolish . . . is because it is foolish.

OAC is home to the best program, maybe of all time in Mount Union.  It is not home to the best conference.

Interesting.  Middlerelief hasn't been around lately spouting off about how weak the OAC is.  Wonder what changed? ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on October 12, 2012, 11:02:19 AM
Interesting ATN this week.  Agree with Commissioner King's comments that the LL race is far from over.

With only two LL games this weekend we're expanding the "HuddLLe" to include a two (and maybe one "surprise") special / national guests including:

Lenny Reich, Asst to the AD / SID at Mount Union
http://athletics.mountunion.edu/information/directory/bios/Reich_Leonard

Dr. Tony Strickland, CEO of the Sports Concussion Institute and Associate Clinical Professor of Neurology, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA.  Dr. Strickland consults with the NFL, NCAA, etc and is a renown expert in the field.
http://www.concussiontreatment.com/

Tune in Sunday night at 7:30 PM to www.inthehuddlle.com
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 12, 2012, 08:46:54 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 12, 2012, 09:36:52 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

The best program does not dictate the best conference.  I know that stings many in the rust belt that wear their beating with pride with the idea being that if it weren't for MUC they really would have a shot -- and in the the event as you're reading it you think it may sound foolish . . . is because it is foolish.

OAC is home to the best program, maybe of all time in Mount Union.  It is not home to the best conference.

Interesting.  Middlerelief hasn't been around lately spouting off about how weak the OAC is.  Wonder what changed? ::)

Have to work/travel during the week . . or is it weak.

I'm not saying the OAC is "weak" -- I'm saying they are not the best conference.    Again, can't prove one way or the other, I'm applying the rationale that they are not competitive within the conference.  Pat chimed in with take a look at the Inter conference record, which would strike me as odd since their top pick (WIAC) went 0-For Minnesota and a loss to sub 500 Buff State.

Again, I am not doubting for a moment who the top programs are, I just don't think that lays claim to the top conference.  I think MIAC, Northwest are probably right though in terms of being in the top. 

This was a good topic, I guess we can pick up again during bracket time as I won't hold my breath for a team from Ohio to put more than 7 against MUC. 

Good luck this weekend.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 12, 2012, 09:32:30 PM
I generally don't waste my time responding to people who cherrypick their stats as much as you just did, but for the record:

Two teams that are a combined 1-9 lost to fourth-ranked St. Thomas. There's only one other MIAC/WIAC game. Not a lot of data for you to point to.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 13, 2012, 05:06:01 PM
HSCoach you mentioned the MUC schedule being back end loaded -- 6 weeks in, MUC appears to be fully loaded!  Haven't seen any of the games just stats and scores, it is amazing.

The next 3 weeks appear to be the challengers (basing that on record only, haven't watched any OAC games this year) -- What can we expect from Otterbein, BW and Heidelberg, competitive with a shot to win or more of the same?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 13, 2012, 06:24:13 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 13, 2012, 05:06:01 PM
HSCoach you mentioned the MUC schedule being back end loaded -- 6 weeks in, MUC appears to be fully loaded!  Haven't seen any of the games just stats and scores, it is amazing.

The next 3 weeks appear to be the challengers (basing that on record only, haven't watched any OAC games this year) -- What can we expect from Otterbein, BW and Heidelberg, competitive with a shot to win or more of the same?

I certainly don't have HS Coach's expertise on UMU or the OAC, but I would say Ott and Bald Wally have zero chance of winning (and only slim chances of breaking Mount's shutout streak :P), but the Heidi game could get interesting.  What an amazing turnaround for Heidi once they hired a Mount grad as their HC! ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on October 13, 2012, 08:55:22 PM
A great day for the Top 10 today (except for Bethel not being competitive with St. Thomas.  Cal Lu hasn't kicked off, yet).  Not as great for 11-21. As always, it will be interesting to see how Top 25 shakes out this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 13, 2012, 10:00:37 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 13, 2012, 05:06:01 PM
HSCoach you mentioned the MUC schedule being back end loaded -- 6 weeks in, MUC appears to be fully loaded!  Haven't seen any of the games just stats and scores, it is amazing.

The next 3 weeks appear to be the challengers (basing that on record only, haven't watched any OAC games this year) -- What can we expect from Otterbein, BW and Heidelberg, competitive with a shot to win or more of the same?

Otterbein is an average team with a really good WR, but little else.    Very surprising that they started the season 5-0 as most expected them to be a 6-4 team but they've played better to start the season.    Otter typically melts against Mount, so I don't know what to expect from them this weekend with the new coaching staff.  Maybe their play so far is a glimpse that they've turned the corner?
Prediction:  Mount 41 / Otter 10

H'Berg has a great, explosive offense with an unknown defense that should post the biggest threat to Mount.  H'Berg will move the ball and will score on Mount, the question is whether they can play enough defense to hang with Mount for 4 quarters.  H'Berg does have the OAC's best running game so it could be a really good challenge for a Mount defense that hasn't played a team yet that has tried to run it, nor has the ability to do so.    Berg had the OAC's best offense last year and looks to be building on that this season.  Their defense is improving, but not quite there yet.  Next year could be their year as they're full of juniors and Mount is almost all seniors.
Prediction:   Mount 44 / Berg 27

Baldwin Wallace is the one team historically that has played Mount the toughest at the line of scrimmage in the OAC, but doesn't have the skill people to beat Mount.  They will definitely play hard and make Mount work for it, but it would be a huge surprise if a close game for 3 quarters doesn't end up being a somewhat comfortable 3 TD victory.   
Prediction:   Mount 31 / BW 14

JCU has a D1 QB transfer (Mark Myers) from Pitt that has been lighting it up this season and should present a good test for the Mount defense.  JCU could/should be 6-0 right now except for a complete melt down at BW in week 2 and close loss in a game when Myers was injured.   Hard to predict what JCU will do between now and Week 10, but if Myers stays healthy they're going to score some points and wins some games.  Their defense is average at best so Mount should easily score in the 40's, question is whether JCU can score enough to make it a game for more than a half. 
Prediction:   Mount 48 / JCU 20
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 05:42:25 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 07, 2012, 05:47:39 PM
Yes - this on the surface has that feeling of wide open

And would like to regress back to the "toughest conference" discussion that was held last week -- the only team to score on MUC this season was a NON-OAC team.  The OAC may be host to one of the toughest programs of all time, but it is not the toughest conference.

Back to this week -- Bethel fan, congrats on the exciting win - and regrets to Concordia which will be really tough to get over -- I really respect that BU went for the win and not the time -- I really hope you guys (along with every remaining team in the MIAC) can beat STU this year.  Good luck.

The OAC is definitely not having its best year, because it's so have/have-not, but UMU hasn't played Heidelberg, Baldwin-Wallace, Otterbein or John Carroll, which are the other four above-.500 teams. Three of the four games are on the road, although road trips don't tend to be much of a factor in the OAC. B-W seems like it's a tough place to play, but that's it, based on where I've been/watched on Sports Time Ohio.

Quote> Sep. 1      at Franklin (4-2)    W, 45-7
Sep. 15        Muskingum (1-5)     W, 57-0
Sep. 22        at Marietta (0-6)    W, 52-0
Sep. 29   Ohio Northern (2-4)    W, 54-0
Oct. 6    at Wilmington (0-6)   W, 66-0
Oct. 13     Capital (1-5)    W, 62-0
Oct. 20      at Otterbein (5-1)
Oct. 27     Heidelberg (6-0)
Nov. 3     at Baldwin-Wallace (5-1)
Nov. 10     at John Carroll (4-2)

So it's hard to get a read on whether this is Mount Union being typically Mount Union, or is this a super dominant team up with the best Purple Raiders teams ever. If I had to guess, right now, I'd say no. The 97, 2001/02 and the 07/08 Mount Union teams were much more experience at key offensive positions, and still strong on D.

Anyway, point is, Mount Union demolishes teams from every conference, good ones and bad ones, so to use that as your only barometer for the quality of the OAC is fool's gold.

I see you all have been addressing this. Nevermind then, most of the salient points seem to have been made already.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 05:50:41 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you ...

What reason would we have to lie to you? All we've been doing is watching every game we can get our eyes on, talking to coaches and players and folks like HSCoach who watch games in each conference each week and analyzing stats since 1999.

You don't have to believe us, and we're certainly open to the facts moving the needle on accepted D-III wisdoms, but I have never met anybody that puts more time into trying to understand D-III and disseminate that info than Pat.

Quotethis on the surface has that feeling of wide open

Well, to a degree, every season is wide open below the top 2, or top five. But this year does seem like we'll have a pretty competitive final eight. But it's early yet, six weeks in, ends of stories still to be written.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 05:52:02 PM
End of argument. HScoach wins.

Quote from: HScoach on October 09, 2012, 09:29:55 AM

Quote from: middlerelief on October 08, 2012, 07:06:33 PM
"Before I write off the OAC"  -- sorry, I wrote them off a long long long time ago.

Coach you put two conferences in a brown paper bag and say Conference A has produced one conference champion the last 10 seasons, and within that conference play said champion has held its in-conference foes to 7 points or less 70% of the time.  Or Conference B has produced 7 different champions, with in-conference play being decided by less than 10 pts per.  -- which is the better conference?  Anyone not named Pat or K-Mack will likely tell you that Conference B is a better one -- competition being the key.

The best program does not dictate the best conference.  I know that stings many in the rust belt that wear their beating with pride with the idea being that if it weren't for MUC they really would have a shot -- and in the the event as you're reading it you think it may sound foolish . . . is because it is foolish.

OAC is home to the best program, maybe of all time in Mount Union.  It is not home to the best conference.

Writing off the OAC simply because Mount has consistently won the conference is an overly simplistic and incorrect view.

Who wins the conference championship is not the only sign of conference strength.  Balance, yes.  But not strength.  You dismiss the OAC simply because they can't beat Mount?  Well then you can dismiss the rest of D3 outside of the WIAC for the last few years.     Since 1996, there have been exactly five (5) teams that have beaten Mount Union, and only one of them has done it multiple times:
Whitewater (WAIC) – 4 times
Ohio Northern (OAC) - once
Mary Hardin Baylor (ASC) - once
St John's (MIAC) - once
Rowan (NJAC) - once

So outside of the WIAC, the OAC has done exactly what the rest of the nation has done against Mount.  Beaten them every once in a while.   

Here's a brief synopsis of the last 20 years of Mount results in terms of toughest/closest games that season and what conference that team was from.   If you take the time to read it, you'll see that the OAC has often provided the toughest test for Mount.  Not always, but the conference has often put up as tough a fight as the best playoff teams from around the nation.

2011 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 14-6
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 25-20
Wesley (ind):  Mount win 28-21
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 13-10
     
2010 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Marietta  (OAC)  :  Mount win 28-14
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 31-21
Next closest regular season game was Otterbein (OAC) by 18 pts, next closest playoff game was 20 pts

2009 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Capital  (OAC)  :  Mount win 28-21
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 38-28
no other team, including playoffs, was closer than 17 pts.

2008 – National Champion (15-0)
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount win 31-26
No other team, playoffs included, closer than 21 pts

2007 – National Runner-up (14-1)
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount loss 31-21
No other team, playoffs included, closer than 24 pts

2006 – National Champion (15-0)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 14-0
Capital  (OAC) in Round 3  :  Mount win 17-14
St. John Fisher (E-8):  Mount win 26-14
    NOTE:  beat Whitewater (WIAC) by 19 in Stagg

2005 – National Champion (14-1)
Ohio Northern  (OAC):  Mount loss 21-14 
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 17-3
Capital  (OAC) in Round 3  :  Mount win 34-31
Whitewater (WIAC):  Mount win 31-26

2004 – Semi-Finalist (12-1)
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-27
Mary Hardin Baylor (ASC):  Mount loss 38-35 to runner-up

2003 – National Runner-up (13-1)
St. John's (MIAC):  Mount loss 24-6
Only decent games were John Carroll  (OAC)   34-16 and Baldwin Wallace  (OAC) 24-0.   No other team, including playoffs, was closer.

2002 – National Champion (14-0)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 28-21
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 35-16
Capital  (OAC)  :  Mount win 38-22
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 34-24
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 21 pts.  Beat John Carroll  (OAC) in semi-finals.

2001 – National Champions (14-0)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 17-3
Bridgewater (ODAC):  Mount win 30-27
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 21 pts

2000 – National Champions (14-0)
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-31
Wittenberg (NCAC):  Mount win 32-15
St. John's (MIAC):  Mount win 10-7
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 24 pts.  Beat Ohio Northern   (OAC)    in Round 1

1999 -  Semi-Finalist (12-1)
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 57-51 in  3 OT's 
Augustana (CCIW):  Mount win 42-33
Rowan (NJAC):  Mount loss 24-17 in OT to runner-up
Played Ohio Northern   (OAC)    in 2nd round of playoffs.

1998 – National Champion (14-0)
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 21-14
Albion (MIAA):  Mount win 21-19
Wittenberg (NCAC):  Mount win 21-19
Trinity Tx (ASC):  Mount win 34-29
    NOTE:  beat Rowan (NJAC) by 20 in Stagg

1997 – National Champions (14-0)
Allegheny (NCAC):  Mount win 34-30
Closest regular season game 38-14 over Ohio Northern  (OAC)  .  Other than Allegheny, no playoff game within 45 pts.  Played John Carroll   (OAC)    in 2nd round of playoffs.

1996 – National Champion (14-0)
Allegheny (NCAC):  Mount win 31-26
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 18 pts.
     NOTE:  beat Rowan by 32 in Stagg

1995 – Semi-Finalist (12-1)
Marietta  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-37
Wisc La Crosse (WIAC):  Mount loss 20-17 to eventual champs
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 21 pts

1994 – Regional Finalist (10-2)
Ohio Northern  (OAC)  :  Mount win 41-35
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC):  Mount loss 23-10 
Allegheny (NCAC):  Mount win 38-19
Albion (MIAA):  Mount loss 34-33 to eventual champs

1993 – National Champs (14-0)
Heidelberg  (OAC)  :  Mount win 24-7
Albion (MIAA):  Mount win 30-16
Rowan (NJAC):  Mount win 34-24

1992 – Semi-Finalist (12-1)
Baldwin Wallace  (OAC)  :  Mount win 23-14
John Carroll  (OAC)  :  Mount win 24-14
Wisc La Crosse (WIAC):  Mount loss 29-24 to eventual champs
No other team, including playoffs, closer than 17 pts.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 14, 2012, 06:12:06 PM
I won?   Crap, I left my acceptance speech in my other suit.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 06:15:34 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 11, 2012, 05:41:11 PM
Hey K-Mack, enjoyed the latest column as always, a bit perplexed on the comment about a D3 sort being difficult on Massey.  Try this, which is fairly easy to get to from the main CF page if you click the "NCAA III" option on the right pulldown menu:

http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&yr=2012&sub=11620

The NESCAC teams get way too much love here, as you'll see ... their top ten is

Trinity CT
Middlebury
M Hardin-Baylor
Wesley DE
Amherst
Bates   
Linfield
Johns Hopkins
Wesleyan CT
Mt Union

Massey has always been high on NESCAC. Only logic I can think of is that they do really well in every other D-III sports, so Massey assumes they would in football too. Our poll is traditionally ignorant toward or dismissive to NESCAC, but it makes sense because they start late and never have any big non-conference results to catch our attention.

Ron, thanks for the link. I tried 20 different sorts. I have no idea why I couldn't find it. But I really miss the Massey's Least-Likely Upsets, which was always at the end of the site under the D-III roundup. Can't find that anymore either.

Really should put some more time into checking out the computer ratings, although they looooved them some Bethel so they took a beating (as did Bethel) this Saturday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 06:17:07 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 11, 2012, 08:54:09 PM
Mr Yipsi you don't have to look real hard. The computer rankings require an OOC "score" for the conference based on performance. If he set that score to 0, since they play no OOC schedule, they would be at the back of the rankings. Those rankings must set the score to 100 as a default, therefore they have a perfect conference OOC, making them the best conference in the country. They then further benefit from the faulty math inherent in each game being a zero sum for the conference, one win, one loss. So in every season, the conference has to be .500 overall. If you add those two together, the faulty logic gives you top teams.

It's a perfect example of what a computer science professor would call GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. The computer can measure the data provided, and in respect to the NESCAC, part of the assumptions backing the data is flawed, so you get Garbage Out.

Just ignore those rankings. They have no meaning in comparison to the rest of the rankings.

There's that W&L edumacation. All my feeble R-MC mind could understand was GIGO. :)

I voted for your boys this week!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 06:57:50 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 13, 2012, 06:24:13 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on October 13, 2012, 05:06:01 PM
HSCoach you mentioned the MUC schedule being back end loaded -- 6 weeks in, MUC appears to be fully loaded!  Haven't seen any of the games just stats and scores, it is amazing.

The next 3 weeks appear to be the challengers (basing that on record only, haven't watched any OAC games this year) -- What can we expect from Otterbein, BW and Heidelberg, competitive with a shot to win or more of the same?

I certainly don't have HS Coach's expertise on UMU or the OAC, but I would say Ott and Bald Wally have zero chance of winning (and only slim chances of breaking Mount's shutout streak :P), but the Heidi game could get interesting.  What an amazing turnaround for Heidi once they hired a Mount grad as their HC! ;D

I'd take the bet that all four of Mount Union's remaining opponents score, as will any opponent in the second round of the playoffs and beyond.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 14, 2012, 06:59:44 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 14, 2012, 06:17:07 PM
There's that W&L edumacation. All my feeble R-MC mind could understand was GIGO. :)

I voted for your boys this week!

I think it is finally possible that W&L has expunged their opening loss. That being said, I'm not sure they really qualify as a top 25 team. I have them near the bottom of the top 10 in my South Region poll. The more teams I watch, the more I see the shortcomings of being as one dimensional as W&L unless you have really great athletes (Salisbury). There is a reason the option isn't a dominant offensive scheme anymore.

That being said, it works well in the ODAC because W&L has recently been getting the athletes to compete at that level. The ODAC is so insanely pass happy that other teams are at a loss how to defend it and one week just isn't enough practice time if the athletes are comparable. W&L, on the other hand, gets game experience almost every week (Sewanee being the exception) against pass happy teams, so their defense isn't anywhere near as handcuffed against a system that isn't run much in practice.

I am enjoying the last couple years. W&L lost two games by 8 points or less, on the road, to playoff teams last year. This year they dropped the opener, but no one else has really come close. I think the hardest game after the opener was against Sewanee, and that's because both teams used the same playbook and it came down to athletes and execution, an area W&L still has a significant advantage. But there is a lot of season to go and, at this point, when you have a team running for 400-500 yards most games, it's just hard to beat them.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on October 15, 2012, 08:33:56 PM
I have a question for you national guys.  What teams within the Top 10 or Top 15 run the spread offense? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 15, 2012, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on October 15, 2012, 08:33:56 PM
I have a question for you national guys.  What teams within the Top 10 or Top 15 run the spread offense?

Off top ... Linfield is single-back, several WR. Hobart. Those are the ones that run spread in the traditional sense.

UMU lines up in spread but doesn't get stuck in a mold of always running same "system." Plays to personnel strengths. I would call them multiple. Wesley is sort of the same. I'd call it multiple, but they'll go four wide at times. They use h-backs, shotgun read option runs with the QBs. Whatever it takes.

UMHB is multiple option. UWW goes single back and I-backs but not spread. Salisbury is triple option. North Central lists itself as spread but can go run-heavy (several backs share carries). IWU is straight I, I believe.

Here's a good resource, last year's playoff bracket capsules:
http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/2011/bracket-uww

Why do you ask?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on October 16, 2012, 06:12:23 PM
Widener runs spread and a fairly open formation, IIRC.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 17, 2012, 01:00:19 AM
Good podcast.  I also like the way that you have your voices some from different speakers, e.g. Pat from my left speaker and Keith from the right.

Kinda reminds me of the Beatles Abbey Road "Here comes the Sun King".   :)

Quote
...
Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol
Cuesto abregado tanta mucho que cara te carousel.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 17, 2012, 06:51:55 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 17, 2012, 01:00:19 AM
Good podcast.  I also like the way that you have your voices some from different speakers, e.g. Pat from my left speaker and Keith from the right.

Kinda reminds me of the Beatles Abbey Road "Here comes the Sun King".   :)

Quote
...
Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol
Cuesto abregado tanta mucho que cara te carousel.

Thanks.

And I'm guessing it's stereo/mono mixing that we don't do? I actually record with a real high-quality USB mic, but the quality of the broadband probably affects the quality of our sound as well.

It's all about the content baby!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on October 18, 2012, 06:00:52 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 15, 2012, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on October 15, 2012, 08:33:56 PM
I have a question for you national guys.  What teams within the Top 10 or Top 15 run the spread offense?

Off top ... Linfield is single-back, several WR. Hobart. Those are the ones that run spread in the traditional sense.

UMU lines up in spread but doesn't get stuck in a mold of always running same "system." Plays to personnel strengths. I would call them multiple. Wesley is sort of the same. I'd call it multiple, but they'll go four wide at times. They use h-backs, shotgun read option runs with the QBs. Whatever it takes.

UMHB is multiple option. UWW goes single back and I-backs but not spread. Salisbury is triple option. North Central lists itself as spread but can go run-heavy (several backs share carries). IWU is straight I, I believe.

Here's a good resource, last year's playoff bracket capsules:
http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/2011/bracket-uww

Why do you ask?

With UMHB's offense the way it is this year, I would have to disagree that they are still a multiple option team. I would agree with you 3-4 years ago and beyond, but they have really worked toward getting Bailey to throw the ball more, and accurately, and the senior signal caller has passed with flying colors this year. I think internally they are calling it the pistol, but they are way more active in the passing game than ever, and it shows; they have had a balanced attack this year and it is paying off.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 18, 2012, 08:35:56 PM
I keep mentioning that in the podcast.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
That description came right off of UMHB's website, but if you watch them play I'll take your word for it. WE keep mentioning that they have passed better this year than most in recent memory, so we are aware of that. No intent to mislead there, was just answering the guy's question.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on October 19, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Nice job with the ATN. Finally got around to reading it. I'm a numbers guy, so that was a fun column to read. Plus I saw the plug for W&L's Luke Heinsohn.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 20, 2012, 11:12:20 AM
Quote from: jknezek on October 19, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Nice job with the ATN. Finally got around to reading it. I'm a numbers guy, so that was a fun column to read. Plus I saw the plug for W&L's Luke Heinsohn.
Great ATN.  It makes for some great Saturday morning pre-game reading.  Here is the link for all of you board lurkers who seldom get to the front page...   ;)

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2012/a-whole-lot-of-special
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 20, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
That description came right off of UMHB's website, but if you watch them play I'll take your word for it. WE keep mentioning that they have passed better this year than most in recent memory, so we are aware of that. No intent to mislead there, was just answering the guy's question.

Watched a bunch of that game today. UMHB definitely runs option mixed in with all the other stuff still. In case that wasn't clear.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 20, 2012, 10:25:37 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 20, 2012, 11:12:20 AM
Quote from: jknezek on October 19, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Nice job with the ATN. Finally got around to reading it. I'm a numbers guy, so that was a fun column to read. Plus I saw the plug for W&L's Luke Heinsohn.
Great ATN.  It makes for some great Saturday morning pre-game reading.  Here is the link for all of you board lurkers who seldom get to the front page...   ;)

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2012/a-whole-lot-of-special

There are those? I'm like the opposite, I always forget about the boards, the foundation, in this day of twitter and instagram and all that.

Thanks for the kudos from you both. I enjoy the numbers breakdown columns too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on October 25, 2012, 05:36:59 PM
First of all, thanks Pat and Keith for compiling your Mock Regional Rankings. It's great to add your broader expertise to our more team, conference and regional perspectives. With that in mind, here's a few observations of the West Mock, 'my' region:

Quote from: ATN
West

1. Linfield, 5-0, .722 (1st), defeated Cal Lutheran, Pacific Lutheran.
2. UW-Oshkosh, 6-0, .589 (31st), defeated UW-Whitewater.
3. St. Thomas, 7-0, .528 (78th), defeated Bethel.
4. Coe, 7-0, .498 (109th), no results vs. RRO.
5. Bethel, 6-1, .658 (5th), lost to St. Thomas, defeated Concordia-Moorhead.
6. Concordia-Moorhead, 5-1 .601 (23rd), lost to Bethel.
7. Cal Lutheran, 5-1, .517 (90th), lost to Linfield, defeated Pacific Lutheran.
8. Pacific Lutheran, 4-2, .700 (2nd), lost to Linfield, lost to Cal Lutheran, defeated Willamette.
9. Willamette, 5-1, .594 (27th), lost to Pacific Lutheran.
10. UW-Whitewater, 5-1*, .500 (104th), lost to UW-Oshkosh.

* - additional out-of-region loss

The bubble: Whitworth, Lake Forest, UW-Platteville.

Extended bubble: Augsburg, Northwestern, Illinois College, St. Olaf, Simpson, Wartburg and St. Norbert.

SOS shakeup:

The 4 unbeatens all have their own arguments to be made for being at the top, that's the fun of being unbeaten! But Coe is the outlier given SOS numbers that will only widen with the teams they close with. Meanwhile Oshkosh's SOS numbers will also dip with UWSP, UWS and UWL remaining. Linfield's numbers will drop a bit with Puget Sound and Pacific's ineptitude diminishing the quality of Willamette. UST, on the other hand, is about to see its number take a good jump with Concordia, Augsburg and St. Olaf remaining and picking up a game against a RRO. Of course the SOS jump also means UST has the toughest road to finish unbeaten out of the 4.

2 Loss Grudge Match:

Assuming teams hold serve, Concordia and Willamette will both pick up a second loss (although with UST majorly banged up, 4-6 starters out for the season over the last two weeks, that's no longer a lock). So you've potentially got PLU, Willamette, and Concordia with 2 in region losses and very strong SOS numbers against UWW with 1 in region loss and weak/weakening SOS numbers. The wildcard is what the committee does with a bad home loss to out of region Buff State. In UWW's favor is that either PLU or Whitworth will knock the other out with their H2H before the committee makes its first official jab. Also, you never know how the committee will regard the 2nd 'loss' by Concordia. They won't pretend its a win, but if they're stuck on how to position several 2 loss teams, I could see these being a factor.

Potential IIAC Chaos:

Wartburg at Coe could make everything crazy. Coe is the favorite, but a Knight win means a 3 way tie for the IIAC lead between 2 regional loss Simpson, 1 regional loss Coe and 2 regional loss Wartburg. If this happens, I'd surmise Wartburg makes it in ahead of UWW, with 1 loss (Bethel) and 1 win (Coe) vs. RRO. While Simpson, probably not regionally ranked, would have the inside track on the IIAC Pool A bid, if they follow the Rose Bowl Rule. That would make things very interesting for the first Regional Ranking in the West.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 25, 2012, 06:14:02 PM
I will be at Wartburg-Coe on Saturday and hope to make the trip to Moorhead the following week, so I'm glad to see someone else thinks it may be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on October 25, 2012, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
That description came right off of UMHB's website, but if you watch them play I'll take your word for it. WE keep mentioning that they have passed better this year than most in recent memory, so we are aware of that. No intent to mislead there, was just answering the guy's question.

No prob. If you had seen the game this week, and that was the only game you had seen, then you would think that I was totally misleading you. We ran more option this week than I had ever seen this season. But, I definitely don't think they are a base multiple option team.

I didn't think you were being sneaky.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on October 25, 2012, 08:25:07 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
That description came right off of UMHB's website, but if you watch them play I'll take your word for it. WE keep mentioning that they have passed better this year than most in recent memory, so we are aware of that. No intent to mislead there, was just answering the guy's question.

Watched a bunch of that game today. UMHB definitely runs option mixed in with all the other stuff still. In case that wasn't clear.

Yes, if this was the Hardin Simmons game, then you are right. They DID run a lot of option this week. It was confusing to me as to why they did that, especially since Wilson seems to be not quite right coming off of his injury. When they pound the middle multiple times and then quick hit the outside, that works well.

The game plan against Trinity was great. They pounded the middle, used bubble screens to keep the DB's and safeties honest, then they bounced outside with the run and ran play action across the middle. I see them using this a lot more down the stretch.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2012, 10:43:35 PM
Like the mock regional rankings.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 26, 2012, 07:57:57 AM
Quote from: umhb2001 on October 25, 2012, 08:25:07 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
That description came right off of UMHB's website, but if you watch them play I'll take your word for it. WE keep mentioning that they have passed better this year than most in recent memory, so we are aware of that. No intent to mislead there, was just answering the guy's question.

Watched a bunch of that game today. UMHB definitely runs option mixed in with all the other stuff still. In case that wasn't clear.

Yes, if this was the Hardin Simmons game, then you are right. They DID run a lot of option this week. It was confusing to me as to why they did that, especially since Wilson seems to be not quite right coming off of his injury. When they pound the middle multiple times and then quick hit the outside, that works well.

The game plan against Trinity was great. They pounded the middle, used bubble screens to keep the DB's and safeties honest, then they bounced outside with the run and ran play action across the middle. I see them using this a lot more down the stretch.

Sometimes the game plan is more about what your opponent doesn't defend well instead of what is your best scheme.   Maybe that was the case against H-S?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on October 26, 2012, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: HScoach on October 26, 2012, 07:57:57 AM
Quote from: umhb2001 on October 25, 2012, 08:25:07 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 19, 2012, 01:56:16 AM
That description came right off of UMHB's website, but if you watch them play I'll take your word for it. WE keep mentioning that they have passed better this year than most in recent memory, so we are aware of that. No intent to mislead there, was just answering the guy's question.

Watched a bunch of that game today. UMHB definitely runs option mixed in with all the other stuff still. In case that wasn't clear.

Yes, if this was the Hardin Simmons game, then you are right. They DID run a lot of option this week. It was confusing to me as to why they did that, especially since Wilson seems to be not quite right coming off of his injury. When they pound the middle multiple times and then quick hit the outside, that works well.

The game plan against Trinity was great. They pounded the middle, used bubble screens to keep the DB's and safeties honest, then they bounced outside with the run and ran play action across the middle. I see them using this a lot more down the stretch.

Sometimes the game plan is more about what your opponent doesn't defend well instead of what is your best scheme.   Maybe that was the case against H-S?

Could be. And one note of inteterest to me was that the play to go back ahead looked eerily similar to the play we tried to run against Wesley at the end of last year. This time, it worked.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 27, 2012, 09:34:22 PM
Appreciate the insight, umhb2001 and hazzben.

And you too Ralph and HS.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dahlby on October 28, 2012, 11:00:17 AM
Here's a good candidate for POTW:
248 yards rushing on 11 carries
75 yard rushing touchdown
88 yard rushing touchdown
9-11-0-152 passing
40 yard passing touchdown

Kean Stancil, QB, Chapman University vs. La Verne on 10/27/12

I hope someone has the game film and can post the 2 touchdown runs!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 28, 2012, 01:01:17 PM
K-Mack:   Would be curious to see your thoughts on Heidelberg after watching their showing against Mount yesterday?   From what I saw, that's definitely a playoff quality team (assuming Cartel Brooks is healthy).  They're as talented as a typical team we'd see in the 2nd Round.   

And they're not a one season flash in the pan either as they're a very young team.  Especially on Offense.
O-line:  4 sophomores & 1 junior
QB:  sophomore
TB:  both sophomores
WR & TE:  3 seniors

D-Line:  1 senior, 1 junior and 1 sophomore
LB:  3 seniors & 1 junior
DB:  2 seniors & 2 juniors

And all 22 of their back-ups are underclassmen. 

It would be huge step forward for the H'Berg program if they could get to 9-1 and taste the playoffs in '12.   Would set them up nicely for '13 and '14.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on October 28, 2012, 01:41:05 PM
I was wondering something along the lines with Coach in regards to Heidelberg.

If Heidelberg can win out and finish with 1 loss, I think it'd be great if they get an invite to the NCAAs - I'd be curious to see how they would fair against other high caliber teams not just the Earth-Beating MUC. 

HSCoach -- good call, you mentioned there would teams toward the end of the season schedule for MUC that would score/compete, and H'Berg put some numbers up and had the lead -- any feeling on the final two games?

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on October 28, 2012, 03:26:43 PM
^  I expect the next 2 games to be solid contests that end up with similar score differentials as H'Berg game.  The last 3 weeks of regular season should prepare Mount nicely for the playoffs.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on October 29, 2012, 05:24:22 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 27, 2012, 09:34:22 PM
Appreciate the insight, umhb2001 and hazzben.

And you too Ralph and HS.

No prob. Listening to the podcast as I write this. Good thoughts on the #1 seeds. The one thing I look forward to is seeing new teams. Redlands, NC Weslyan, and others have been good to see. I wish we had Central here, but what can I say. I hope things hold serve, keep guys healthy, then get that first game here in Belton. Many steps remain and lots of improvement to take on. I think we can do it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on October 29, 2012, 05:51:27 PM
Great article and one that started a lot of talk in Geneva, NY last weekend.  Coach Cragg really wants a home playoff game(s).

Still, I can't see a 10-0 Hobart as a #1.  Most likely / best case would be a #2 based on having a clear top 4 in UMU, MHB, LC and StT.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 29, 2012, 09:18:01 PM
What would be awesome would be if Hobart would put in for a second-round home playoff game. I remember when they declined to put in to host and had to go to Widener. (Although that made it easier for us to cover it!)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 29, 2012, 09:20:27 PM
I guess this assumes the NCAA continues with the trend they started last year. In the past, there would be no way St. Thomas and Linfield could both be #1 seeds.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 30, 2012, 01:43:52 AM
Quote from: smedindy on October 29, 2012, 09:20:27 PM
I guess this assumes the NCAA continues with the trend they started last year. In the past, there would be no way St. Thomas and Linfield could both be #1 seeds.

Oh I think it's been several years now, since they first moved Mount to the East, that the committee has tried to reward No. 1 seeds, regardless of geographic region, while staying true to the clustering philosophy. And usually that opens the door for North and West teams that would otherwise be stuck behind UWW and UMU to get the No. 1 they might well deserve.

As for this year, I think SoS makes Linfield a shoo-in, and the same would go for St. Thomas. UMU and UMHB would be the others. If UST stumbles, then UW-Oshkosh is probably the No. 1 seed, IMO.

Minnesota and Wisconsin are close enough to Iowa, Illiinois, Indiana and Michigan to build a bracket around, and still leaving some teams to be in a true West bracket that's centered in Linfield.

I'm with Frank, I don't think Hobart would get the No. 1 although they'd definitely play at home. But with who's on the selection committee this year, I think these are very savvy guys who pay attention to the realities beyond the numbers, and would do what they could within the criteria to reward the No. 1 seeds.

I've been impressed with the committee the past few years, and I think we're going to be happy with their work this year, although Pool C looks like it's going to have some really tough decisions to make, and there will be some whining and complaining from those who get left out.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on October 30, 2012, 07:39:59 AM
If Hobart goes 10-0, I'd only be disappointed if they had to travel in a prospective second round game.  I think they've earned that this year (unlike in 2000 - where our AD's dept screwed up, but Widener was the better team and deserved the home game).  Looks like they'll have one or two RRO's (Utica & RPI) despite nothing really jumping out on their schedule.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2012, 08:08:18 AM
St. Thomas as a 1 in the "North" would be a stretch due to geography. It would be an awkward bracket with both St. Thomas and Linfield as 1 seeds.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 30, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2012, 08:08:18 AM
St. Thomas as a 1 in the "North" would be a stretch due to geography. It would be an awkward bracket with both St. Thomas and Linfield as 1 seeds.

My guess (listed in desending order of number one seeds):

1) Mt. Union
2) Hobart

1) UMHB
2) Wesley

1) Linfield
2) St. Thomas

1) UW-Oshkosh
2) North Central

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 30, 2012, 01:04:12 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 30, 2012, 01:43:52 AM
As for this year, I think SoS makes Linfield a shoo-in, and the same would go for St. Thomas. UMU and UMHB would be the others. If UST stumbles, then UW-Oshkosh is probably the No. 1 seed, IMO.

Seems like UW-O has a decent lead over St. Thomas in SOS numbers right now.  But with the Cobbers still up for the Tommies, how much does that change?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on October 30, 2012, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 29, 2012, 09:18:01 PM
What would be awesome would be if Hobart would put in for a second-round home playoff game. I remember when they declined to put in to host and had to go to Widener. (Although that made it easier for us to cover it!)

Given the updates to Boswell Field and different academic calendar, a 2nd round game (assuming they won in the first round), is almost a 100% certainty this season. 

HWS is on semesters which they weren't in the Widener game (2000) days.  Winter break doesn't happen at Hobart until 12/16 now, whereas back the school was shut down by mid-Nov thru New Year's.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on October 30, 2012, 01:16:08 PM
Quote from: d-train on October 30, 2012, 01:04:12 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 30, 2012, 01:43:52 AM
As for this year, I think SoS makes Linfield a shoo-in, and the same would go for St. Thomas. UMU and UMHB would be the others. If UST stumbles, then UW-Oshkosh is probably the No. 1 seed, IMO.

Seems like UW-O has a decent lead over St. Thomas in SOS numbers right now.  But with the Cobbers still up for the Tommies, how much does that change?

UW-O has games left with Stevens Point (2-6) and Stout (3-5) while St. Thomas has their games left with Concordia (7-1) and St. Olaf (6-2).  I don't know exactly how much that will swing the SOS numbers, but they'll wind up closer than they are right now if St. Thomas doesn't actually surpass Oshkosh on the SOS list.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 30, 2012, 01:20:17 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 30, 2012, 01:16:08 PM
UW-O has games left with Stevens Point (2-6) and Stout (3-5) while St. Thomas has their games left with Concordia (7-1) and St. Olaf (6-2).  I don't know exactly how much that will swing the SOS numbers, but they'll wind up closer than they are right now if St. Thomas doesn't actually surpass Oshkosh on the SOS list.

Okay, good info.  Here's a hedged bet:

1) Mt. Union
2) Hobart

1) UMHB
2) Wesley

1) Linfield
2) St. Thomas or UW-Oshkosh

1) UW-Oshkosh or St. Thomas
2) North Central or Concordia-Chicago  (<-editted after seeing the regional rankings)

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on October 30, 2012, 01:26:05 PM
I'm interested to see what happens with the order of North Central and Wabash.  My gut feeling is that North Central will wind up seeded higher than Wabash, but the criteria don't necessarily support that.  It may well come down to which teams get ranked and which don't...specifically OWU, IWU, and Wheaton.  Maybe Hanover, but I think they're a little further out than these three. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on October 30, 2012, 07:15:59 PM
Concordia - Chicago could be in the mix as well at 10-0, though their SOS will take a hit in these last weeks.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 31, 2012, 03:00:35 AM
So I just watched the highlight packages all the way through for the first time :-[

This is awesome; we did not have this a few years ago, let alone 10 or 15 or 20 when a lot of us played.

That said, not much weirder than just watching one team's highlights of a game in which you have no dog in the, er, tussle. The Hardin-Simmons highlights were cool (what is that wingback motion called? It's not jet sweep, is it? Not ghost reverse) but would have been nice to see some of Sul Ross State.

OWU looked pretty great for a team that lost 28-0. I'm a fan now. (Dern highlight packages)

Keep the things under 4 minutes, especially if it's just one person talking. 2-3 is probably ideal.

Love the diversity of styles. You'd think we want conformity, but at this juncture, it's just good to be able to get a glimpse of all the different places we play and how many people our game affects. I think I might feel inspiration for another column coming on lol (it is the time of year I do the item on seniors playing their last games)

Anyway, I enjoyed. I will try to make a habit of watching them in the future, but we've stayed so busy doing everything else ...

I will reply to some of the stuff mentioned above, and a lot of the e-mail queries I've received this week, right in Thursday's column. I get distracted and stay on the boards and stuff otherwise, so it'd be good for me to focus on ATN by answering there. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 31, 2012, 03:12:28 AM
Lol at the highlight packages set to Wiz Khalifa and Drake.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 31, 2012, 10:59:37 AM
My favorite for Highlight of the Week was the fly-over at the Austin College game. Here is the post on the SCAC board by roocru telling us about it, plus the 1:40 youtube clip showing it.   :)

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4753.9766
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 31, 2012, 01:53:30 PM
Quote from: smedindy on October 30, 2012, 07:15:59 PM
Concordia - Chicago could be in the mix as well at 10-0, though their SOS will take a hit in these last weeks.

Good call - they were graded pretty high for now.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: desertcat1 on October 31, 2012, 01:54:59 PM
Ring those 's cowbells buddy,  ;)  dance time at the catdome  8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: d-train on October 31, 2012, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: desertcat1 on October 31, 2012, 01:54:59 PM
Ring those 's cowbells buddy,  ;)  dance time at the catdome  8-)

Yeah, maybe.  A trip to Thousand Oaks would be nice (and let you guys host a true 8 seed and then the CLU/PLU winner).  But that's an 'extra' flight.  Gotta win two tough ones first.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 31, 2012, 02:00:24 PM
First regional rankings are up:
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2012/10/31/first-2012-ncaa-regional-rankings/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on October 31, 2012, 10:33:52 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 28, 2012, 01:01:17 PM
K-Mack:   Would be curious to see your thoughts on Heidelberg after watching their showing against Mount yesterday?   From what I saw, that's definitely a playoff quality team (assuming Cartel Brooks is healthy).  They're as talented as a typical team we'd see in the 2nd Round.   

And they're not a one season flash in the pan either as they're a very young team.  Especially on Offense.
O-line:  4 sophomores & 1 junior
QB:  sophomore
TB:  both sophomores
WR & TE:  3 seniors

D-Line:  1 senior, 1 junior and 1 sophomore
LB:  3 seniors & 1 junior
DB:  2 seniors & 2 juniors

And all 22 of their back-ups are underclassmen. 

It would be huge step forward for the H'Berg program if they could get to 9-1 and taste the playoffs in '12.   Would set them up nicely for '13 and '14.

Quote from: middlerelief on October 28, 2012, 01:41:05 PM
I was wondering something along the lines with Coach in regards to Heidelberg.

If Heidelberg can win out and finish with 1 loss, I think it'd be great if they get an invite to the NCAAs - I'd be curious to see how they would fair against other high caliber teams not just the Earth-Beating MUC. 

HSCoach -- good call, you mentioned there would teams toward the end of the season schedule for MUC that would score/compete, and H'Berg put some numbers up and had the lead -- any feeling on the final two games?

Quote from: HScoach on October 28, 2012, 03:26:43 PM
^  I expect the next 2 games to be solid contests that end up with similar score differentials as H'Berg game.  The last 3 weeks of regular season should prepare Mount nicely for the playoffs.

Well I was holding my reply thinking I'd get to watch more of the second half, but here's what I think:

Heidelberg's got a QB and I like Brooks/Lacy as a combo in the backfield. But more impressively, they weren't getting blown off the ball (all the time) on defense, and they made some plays in Mount Union's backfield. So they're decent defensively. They held on fourth down once, and got off the field in a couple key situations and forced UMU to dig deep a bit, so they've got a little heart too.

Talent-wise, I think you're about right, they could win a playoff game, maybe two. Everything I'd heard is that they are a year away, and that seems right with the youth you listed and Harry and Joe mentioned on the broadcast. But if they could sneak in this year and win a game, it would do wonders for recruiting and confidence.

The B-W/Heidelberg game should be pretty interesting. I don't see JCU being the same challenge, having watched at least parts of all teams' games on STO this year. But then again, the B-W game was against Wilmington, so maybe they looked distortedly good.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 01, 2012, 12:39:39 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 31, 2012, 10:33:52 PM
Quote from: HScoach on October 28, 2012, 01:01:17 PM
K-Mack:   Would be curious to see your thoughts on Heidelberg after watching their showing against Mount yesterday?   From what I saw, that's definitely a playoff quality team (assuming Cartel Brooks is healthy).  They're as talented as a typical team we'd see in the 2nd Round.   

And they're not a one season flash in the pan either as they're a very young team.  Especially on Offense.
O-line:  4 sophomores & 1 junior
QB:  sophomore
TB:  both sophomores
WR & TE:  3 seniors

D-Line:  1 senior, 1 junior and 1 sophomore
LB:  3 seniors & 1 junior
DB:  2 seniors & 2 juniors

And all 22 of their back-ups are underclassmen. 

It would be huge step forward for the H'Berg program if they could get to 9-1 and taste the playoffs in '12.   Would set them up nicely for '13 and '14.

Quote from: middlerelief on October 28, 2012, 01:41:05 PM
I was wondering something along the lines with Coach in regards to Heidelberg.

If Heidelberg can win out and finish with 1 loss, I think it'd be great if they get an invite to the NCAAs - I'd be curious to see how they would fair against other high caliber teams not just the Earth-Beating MUC. 

HSCoach -- good call, you mentioned there would teams toward the end of the season schedule for MUC that would score/compete, and H'Berg put some numbers up and had the lead -- any feeling on the final two games?

Quote from: HScoach on October 28, 2012, 03:26:43 PM
^  I expect the next 2 games to be solid contests that end up with similar score differentials as H'Berg game.  The last 3 weeks of regular season should prepare Mount nicely for the playoffs.

Well I was holding my reply thinking I'd get to watch more of the second half, but here's what I think:

Heidelberg's got a QB and I like Brooks/Lacy as a combo in the backfield. But more impressively, they weren't getting blown off the ball (all the time) on defense, and they made some plays in Mount Union's backfield. So they're decent defensively. They held on fourth down once, and got off the field in a couple key situations and forced UMU to dig deep a bit, so they've got a little heart too.

Talent-wise, I think you're about right, they could win a playoff game, maybe two. Everything I'd heard is that they are a year away, and that seems right with the youth you listed and Harry and Joe mentioned on the broadcast. But if they could sneak in this year and win a game, it would do wonders for recruiting and confidence.

The B-W/Heidelberg game should be pretty interesting. I don't see JCU being the same challenge, having watched at least parts of all teams' games on STO this year. But then again, the B-W game was against Wilmington, so maybe they looked distortedly good.

Of course I'm right!  Don't you understand who you're dealing with? ;)

The H'berg/BW game is going to be interesting.  I'll have a better feel for it once I see BW live on Saturday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 01, 2012, 01:11:08 PM
This is what I think I realized re: the MAC. Somebody tell me if I'm wrong and why:

QuoteMAC – Widener (8-0, 7-0) had its game this Saturday at FDU-Florham cancelled, which takes off the table the possibility for a three-way tie. Delaware Valley (6-1, 6-2) plays at Widener in the Keystone Cup game in Week 11, and with a win there and a home win against Wilkes Saturday, it would finish 7-1 in the conference. Lycoming, which beat Delaware Valley 24-14 in Week 2 and lost to Widener 28-23 two weeks ago, is the big beneficiary. It needs only to beat Stevenson (1-6, 1-7) and Misericordia (0-7. 0-8) to finish 7-1 in the MAC, and holds a head-to-head tiebreaker over the Aggies. Previously, Delaware Valley had a chance to win the AQ with a 16-point-or-more win over Widener, but unless the MAC puts some measure in place, the Aggies' AQ hopes are now virtually shot. Widener would make all that moot by finishing unbeaten. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: desertcat1 on November 01, 2012, 04:08:17 PM
Hey Big Guru,

you need to adjust  Willamette to a two loss team,  Linfield & PLU .. it shows only one, unless i have missed something in the last couple of weeks?   :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 01, 2012, 04:42:09 PM
Quote from: desertcat1 on November 01, 2012, 04:08:17 PM
Hey Big Guru,

you need to adjust  Willamette to a two loss team,  Linfield & PLU .. it shows only one, unless i have missed something in the last couple of weeks?   :)

Where does it show only one?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: desertcat1 on November 01, 2012, 05:35:47 PM
Sorry about that me bad, :-[   I was looking at the OLD one 10/25/12..  >:( you were right on then buddy .  :)

One to many browines i guess. ::) :'(
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 01, 2012, 07:11:19 PM
Mmm, Brownies.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 01, 2012, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 01, 2012, 07:11:19 PM
Mmm, Brownies.

Don't take any brownie's from Levell.  They might taste a little funny.

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-news/2012/oct/31/former-uw-whitewater-star-arrested/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 01, 2012, 08:47:29 PM
Yeah, but regardless of taste, you just can't stop eating them! 8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2012, 12:22:15 AM
Quote from: HScoach on November 01, 2012, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 01, 2012, 07:11:19 PM
Mmm, Brownies.

Don't take any brownie's from Levell.  They might taste a little funny.

http://gazettextra.com/weblogs/latest-news/2012/oct/31/former-uw-whitewater-star-arrested/

Hadn't seen that. I think I should probably withhold any comment.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 02, 2012, 12:23:09 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 01, 2012, 01:11:08 PM
This is what I think I realized re: the MAC. Somebody tell me if I'm wrong and why:

QuoteMAC – Widener (8-0, 7-0) had its game this Saturday at FDU-Florham cancelled, which takes off the table the possibility for a three-way tie. Delaware Valley (6-1, 6-2) plays at Widener in the Keystone Cup game in Week 11, and with a win there and a home win against Wilkes Saturday, it would finish 7-1 in the conference. Lycoming, which beat Delaware Valley 24-14 in Week 2 and lost to Widener 28-23 two weeks ago, is the big beneficiary. It needs only to beat Stevenson (1-6, 1-7) and Misericordia (0-7. 0-8) to finish 7-1 in the MAC, and holds a head-to-head tiebreaker over the Aggies. Previously, Delaware Valley had a chance to win the AQ with a 16-point-or-more win over Widener, but unless the MAC puts some measure in place, the Aggies' AQ hopes are now virtually shot. Widener would make all that moot by finishing unbeaten. 

New MAC blurb:

MAC -- Though Widener (7-0, 8-0) had its game with FDU-Florham (2-5, 2-6) cancelled and Delaware Valley (6-1, 6-2) may not play its game Saturday against Wilkes (3-4, 4-4), the conference office will apparently honor the three-way tie scenario with Lycoming (6-1, 6-2) even though the teams won't have the same number of MAC games. That means Widener needs to beat Delaware Valley in Week 11 to clinch, and Del Val needs to win by 16 or more to get the AQ. Otherwise, it belongs to Lycoming, assuming the Warriors beat Stevenson (1-6, 1-7) and Misericordia (0-7, 0-8).
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: desertcat1 on November 02, 2012, 11:52:00 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 01, 2012, 08:47:29 PM
Yeah, but regardless of taste, you just can't stop eating them! 8-)

Ypsi,

the good ;) , the bad and the ugly are all legal in AZ? 8-)

pass the browines please.. 8-)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on November 03, 2012, 12:28:11 PM
QuoteNew MAC blurb:

MAC -- Though Widener (7-0, 8-0) had its game with FDU-Florham (2-5, 2-6) cancelled and Delaware Valley (6-1, 6-2) may not play its game Saturday against Wilkes (3-4, 4-4), the conference office will apparently honor the three-way tie scenario with Lycoming (6-1, 6-2) even though the teams won't have the same number of MAC games. That means Widener needs to beat Delaware Valley in Week 11 to clinch, and Del Val needs to win by 16 or more to get the AQ. Otherwise, it belongs to Lycoming, assuming the Warriors beat Stevenson (1-6, 1-7) and Misericordia (0-7, 0-8).

Del Val regained power in the stadium so the game is on.  We'll see how the Aggies do with very little practice. A lot of their kids had their minds elsewhere this week since they are from storm ravaged communities. If Del Val loses today, the AQ goes to Widener.  If Del Val wins, see above. :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on November 03, 2012, 04:11:47 PM
Del Val wins 23-7. The Aggies score 21 in the first quarter and the defense holds another opponent out of the end zone.  Wilkes' TD came on an interception return.  Del Val's first team defense has given up one touchdown since Week 2 and it came after the Aggies fumbled the ball at their own 14 against Leb Val.

Should be a fun showdown with Widener.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2012, 09:04:36 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on November 03, 2012, 04:11:47 PM
Del Val wins 23-7. The Aggies score 21 in the first quarter and the defense holds another opponent out of the end zone.  Wilkes' TD came on an interception return.  Del Val's first team defense has given up one touchdown since Week 2 and it came after the Aggies fumbled the ball at their own 14 against Leb Val.

Should be a fun showdown with Widener.

Yes it should.

Thanks for the updates Gordo. Don't forget not to vote on Tuesday!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on November 04, 2012, 09:01:12 AM
Week 9 proved to be a tough one for the T25:

# 7 N. Central, #10 Wabash, #12 Bethel, #13 Hopkins, #25 SJF all go down with a loss.  Would like to see Hobart climb up they've been mashing teams all season long and are undefeated.

Question: I noticed a handful of games being cancelled in the NJAC, if those games are not rescheduled, how or does that impact a team's ability for an At-Large?  Thinking specifically Rowan.  Anyone got an idea on that?



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 04, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on November 04, 2012, 09:01:12 AM
Week 9 proved to be a tough one for the T25:

# 7 N. Central, #10 Wabash, #12 Bethel, #13 Hopkins, #25 SJF all go down with a loss.  Would like to see Hobart climb up they've been mashing teams all season long and are undefeated.

Question: I noticed a handful of games being cancelled in the NJAC, if those games are not rescheduled, how or does that impact a team's ability for an At-Large?  Thinking specifically Rowan.  Anyone got an idea on that?

Though not upsets like the 4 games you mentioned, #23 Baldwin Wallace and #17 Concordia-Moorhead also went down.  Going to be some serious shuffling in the new Top 25 this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2012, 03:33:11 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 04, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on November 04, 2012, 09:01:12 AM
Week 9 proved to be a tough one for the T25:

# 7 N. Central, #10 Wabash, #12 Bethel, #13 Hopkins, #25 SJF all go down with a loss.  Would like to see Hobart climb up they've been mashing teams all season long and are undefeated.

Question: I noticed a handful of games being cancelled in the NJAC, if those games are not rescheduled, how or does that impact a team's ability for an At-Large?  Thinking specifically Rowan.  Anyone got an idea on that?

Though not upsets like the 4 games you mentioned, #23 Baldwin Wallace and #17 Concordia-Moorhead also went down.  Going to be some serious shuffling in the new Top 25 this week.

It's already out: http://www.d3football.com/top25/2012/week10

BIG movement in the teens, and there sorta had to be.

A shame it shook out that Wheaton is still a spot behind North Central. I think that hurts our credibility a bit after what was a pretty thorough domination yesterday.

PLU moves in, albeit way lower than I have them (around 10, with losses to top-6 Linfield and CLU, by one score and two respectively, plus wins over 7-win Willamette, 6-win Whitworth and 5-win Redlands).

Personally I don't like Wabash hannging in at 25 instead of Witt, but they did beat them.

This is the point in the season where you can't justify every vote with an easy, traceable line of reasoning.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 04, 2012, 10:02:09 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2012, 03:33:11 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 04, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on November 04, 2012, 09:01:12 AM
Week 9 proved to be a tough one for the T25:

# 7 N. Central, #10 Wabash, #12 Bethel, #13 Hopkins, #25 SJF all go down with a loss.  Would like to see Hobart climb up they've been mashing teams all season long and are undefeated.

Question: I noticed a handful of games being cancelled in the NJAC, if those games are not rescheduled, how or does that impact a team's ability for an At-Large?  Thinking specifically Rowan.  Anyone got an idea on that?

Though not upsets like the 4 games you mentioned, #23 Baldwin Wallace and #17 Concordia-Moorhead also went down.  Going to be some serious shuffling in the new Top 25 this week.

It's already out: http://www.d3football.com/top25/2012/week10

BIG movement in the teens, and there sorta had to be.

A shame it shook out that Wheaton is still a spot behind North Central. I think that hurts our credibility a bit after what was a pretty thorough domination yesterday.

PLU moves in, albeit way lower than I have them (around 10, with losses to top-6 Linfield and CLU, by one score and two respectively, plus wins over 7-win Willamette, 6-win Whitworth and 5-win Redlands).

Personally I don't like Wabash hannging in at 25 instead of Witt, but they did beat them.

This is the point in the season where you can't justify every vote with an easy, traceable line of reasoning.

Right, because what do you do with Elmhurst, who beat Wheaton and got crushed by North Central? There's a pretty thorough domination there, too.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 05, 2012, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

Forest......meet trees.

You have a knack for restating the obvious. So NCC should be ranked ahead of Wheaton in Pool C because they dominated IWU with no QB and Elmhurst at home? Good logic.

I am not trying to make a case for any team, the issue we are trying to address is how to differentiate between similar results. The biggest difference in the quagmire that is the CCIW is the home vs road results. Wheaton did not get blown out in their losses and they were both on the road. Elmhurst has a blow out loss on the road, NCC has a blowout loss at home. Elmhurst has 1 loss and NCC/Wheaton have 2. It seems pretty clear to me to rank these teams 1-Elmhurst, 2-Wheaton, 3-NCC for the RR. When you factor in the other teams for Pool C you have to realize that one of those CCIW teams won't be compared (because they will win the AQ) to other pool C teams. Wheaton has a better chance than NCC for pool C as a 2 loss team because if NCC loses to Augie and Elmhurst wins the AQ, NCC's chances of being picked ahead of Wheaton are zero due to the HTH result. This isn't a chest thumping exercise its based on the facts.

Now if you want to have your head spin, try and figure out the NCAC tie breaker. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on November 05, 2012, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 08:48:04 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

Forest......meet trees.

You have a knack for restating the obvious. So NCC should be ranked ahead of Wheaton in Pool C because they dominated IWU with no QB and Elmhurst at home? Good logic.

I am not trying to make a case for any team, the issue we are trying to address is how to differentiate between similar results. The biggest difference in the quagmire that is the CCIW is the home vs road results. Wheaton did not get blown out in their losses and they were both on the road. Elmhurst has a blow out loss on the road, NCC has a blowout loss at home. Elmhurst has 1 loss and NCC/Wheaton have 2. It seems pretty clear to me to rank these teams 1-Elmhurst, 2-Wheaton, 3-NCC for the RR. When you factor in the other teams for Pool C you have to realize that one of those CCIW teams won't be compared (because they will win the AQ) to other pool C teams. Wheaton has a better chance than NCC for pool C as a 2 loss team because if NCC loses to Augie and Elmhurst wins the AQ, NCC's chances of being picked ahead of Wheaton are zero due to the HTH result. This isn't a chest thumping exercise its based on the facts.

Now if you want to have your head spin, try and figure out the NCAC tie breaker.
If NC loses to Augie they are a three loss team and packing it in for the season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on November 05, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on November 05, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 05, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.
I don't think IWU's defense was decimated, and they should have kept NC under the 52 points. However, all NC and Elmhurst have to do is win to get in. Wheaton may get in or may not, depending on what crazy things happen this Saturday.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: TitanPride on November 05, 2012, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 05, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.
I don't think IWU's defense was decimated, and they should have kept NC under the 52 points. However, all NC and Elmhurst have to do is win to get in. Wheaton may get in or may not, depending on what crazy things happen this Saturday.

Actually, that's not true, depending on your definition of decimation.  IWU was without their starting middle linebacker, Connor Klein, who was injured against Wheaton.  Linebacker Kyle Pfister was injured on the second play of the NCC game and didn't return.  Additionally, DT Bert Blodgett and LB JJ Marien suffered ankle injuries during the game and sat out.  NCC saw a different defense than was out there against Wheaton.  Not making any excuses on behalf of IWU;  NCC clobbered them, but these might be relevant facts for your discussion.   
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on November 05, 2012, 11:49:11 AM
Quote from: TitanPride on November 05, 2012, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 05, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.
I don't think IWU's defense was decimated, and they should have kept NC under the 52 points. However, all NC and Elmhurst have to do is win to get in. Wheaton may get in or may not, depending on what crazy things happen this Saturday.

Actually, that's not true, depending on your definition of decimation.  IWU was without their starting middle linebacker, Connor Klein, who was injured against Wheaton.  Linebacker Kyle Pfister was injured on the second play of the NCC game and didn't return.  Additionally, DT Bert Blodgett and LB JJ Marien suffered ankle injuries during the game and sat out.  NCC saw a different defense than was out there against Wheaton.  Not making any excuses on behalf of IWU;  NCC clobbered them, but these might be relevant facts for your discussion.   
Four starters out is pretty bad. How many of them will be back this week?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 05, 2012, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 05, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.

I think you are right on here Wally. This is the most likely scenario. The fly in the ointment is the fact that Elmhurst's defense is worse than a dirty rug.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2012, 02:21:03 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road. Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.

I'm not a big "value of a win is more/less depending on where it is played" guy. I'd be more willing to buy Wheaton's win came later in the season, and its loss was slight while its win was fairly dominating.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2012, 02:22:41 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 05, 2012, 10:36:35 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 05, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
Quote from: USee on November 05, 2012, 12:37:33 AM
Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.
No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.

I think you are right on here Wally. This is the most likely scenario. The fly in the ointment is the fact that Elmhurst's defense is worse than a dirty rug.

I think Wheaton needs the AQ. Their chances of getting to the table, IMHO, are slim, unless some results break right on Saturday. We do have them ahead of the NCAC loser-outer though.

Also way to ruin this thread with an argument that could've been had on the CCIW board.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 06, 2012, 08:08:59 AM
K-Mack,

Have you checked the CCIW board? I am guessing not. This argument is like a virus on the boards. It's been had there and here and who knows where next. I have a hard time seeing how it's "ruining" this thread. It may be ruining my credibility, but not the thread.

Also, I can't imagine why you don't think a road win is not more important than a home win. The facts are that teams win at home more often than on the road. It's not an opinion, it's in the data. You don't have to believe it, but it doesn't make it more or less true. Now, if you are saying you personally don't value the data, that's ok too. Unfortunately, this is also an argument we have had on the CCIW board and elsewhere. Sorry.......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 06, 2012, 08:36:40 AM
Quote from: USee on November 06, 2012, 08:08:59 AM
K-Mack,

Have you checked the CCIW board? I am guessing not. This argument is like a virus on the boards. It's been had there and here and who knows where next. I have a hard time seeing how it's "ruining" this thread. It may be ruining my credibility, but not the thread.

Also, I can't imagine why you don't think a road win is not more important than a home win. The facts are that teams win at home more often than on the road. It's not an opinion, it's in the data. You don't have to believe it, but it doesn't make it more or less true. Now, if you are saying you personally don't value the data, that's ok too. Unfortunately, this is also an argument we have had on the CCIW board and elsewhere. Sorry.......
Road win...Home win...
All of these discussions must be considered in the context of how the committee will value the data versus the criteria.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 06, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 06, 2012, 08:36:40 AM
Quote from: USee on November 06, 2012, 08:08:59 AM
K-Mack,

Have you checked the CCIW board? I am guessing not. This argument is like a virus on the boards. It's been had there and here and who knows where next. I have a hard time seeing how it's "ruining" this thread. It may be ruining my credibility, but not the thread.

Also, I can't imagine why you don't think a road win is not more important than a home win. The facts are that teams win at home more often than on the road. It's not an opinion, it's in the data. You don't have to believe it, but it doesn't make it more or less true. Now, if you are saying you personally don't value the data, that's ok too. Unfortunately, this is also an argument we have had on the CCIW board and elsewhere. Sorry.......

Road win...Home win...
All of these discussions must be considered in the context of how the committee will value the data versus the criteria.

Agreed.....which was my original point on one of these boards (????). I mentioned that before the world of AQ, Pool B/C, published criteria, sos, and regional rankings the committee valued winning streaks (they rarely picked a team that lost in the last 2 weeks of the season) and home vs road records. I openly wondered if that could be a way to break the tie or filter the teams that we are currently seeing as so complex. For example, if you were comparing 2 loss teams and had the ability to eliminate teams that lost at the end of the season vs a team that lost early (e.g. Team XXX is on an 8 game win streak from their week 4 loss but Team YYYY lost in week 10, or Team XXX lost on the road to Team YYY while Team AAA lost at home to Team BBB). The specific example I used is the fact that Wheaton beat NCC on the road (when NCC was on a 20 game conference win streak) and lost @Elmhurst in a close game. I personally value road wins much more highly that home wins for teams. In the Wheaton v IWU rivalry in the CCIW, the home team has won every game the last 6 years and IWU has not won @ Wheaton since 1998.

The reality is that the current criteria may not allow for that but I think it's an important discussion. (enter K-Mack to scold USee for ruining his ATN thread with a Pool C discussion....)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on November 06, 2012, 02:01:21 PM
I think it does matter in some aspects. Before this season Wabash hadn't lost a non-playoff game at home in a l-o-n-g time. Of course, usually there's 4,000 on one side of the stands and about 100 on the other.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 06, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

I think the data says otherwise. Home/away is not just crowds and weather, it's about routine and distractions. Home vs away is absolutely an important factor.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 06, 2012, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: USee on November 06, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

I think the data says otherwise. Home/away is not just crowds and weather, it's about routine and distractions. Home vs away is absolutely an important factor.

Bingo. Crowd affect, not so much. I played in the 2003 Bethel, SJU game. Almost 14,000 on hand to see Gags go for 409. That's a strong anomaly for a D3 game, and I don't think the crowd affected much of anything.

But the routine piece can be big. No two road trips are alike, and since most away games for D3 schools are one day trips it can be a bit of a variable.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 03:59:10 PM
^  Guess I'm just spoiled by following a team that's a little more machine-like. ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 06, 2012, 04:21:05 PM
I agree that HSCoach has been spoiled.  :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: roocru on November 06, 2012, 04:44:08 PM
Quote from: hazzben on November 06, 2012, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: USee on November 06, 2012, 02:09:25 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

I think the data says otherwise. Home/away is not just crowds and weather, it's about routine and distractions. Home vs away is absolutely an important factor.

Bingo. Crowd affect, not so much. I played in the 2003 Bethel, SJU game. Almost 14,000 on hand to see Gags go for 409. That's a strong anomaly for a D3 game, and I don't think the crowd affected much of anything.

But the routine piece can be big. No two road trips are alike, and since most away games for D3 schools are one day trips it can be a bit of a variable.

I also believe you have to first have success on the road.  Primary example, since the 2004 successful all road trip to the Stagg Bowl the mindset of all UMHB teams after that has been different regarding being on the road.  I am not saying they have won all their road contests since then but I believe they do approach them with a different mindset.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
I think Mount plays better on the road in the regular season.   More focused, less distractions.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on November 06, 2012, 07:34:23 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 07:18:50 PM
I think Mount plays better on the road in the regular season.   More focused, less distractions.
Makes sense
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 03:31:54 AM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

True, but that is balanced by infrequent overnight travel for many D-III teams, and in games when a team flies, I think it becomes a bigger deal.

I'm saying I don't value the data much. Teams do play better at home, but I don't think a win should be "worth" more based on where it took place. I have some of my own biases from being a player -- the fewer distractions thing being one, me personally enjoying travel and seeing new places and having time on the bus to focus on the tasks at hand, and enjoying the challenge of playing in front of another team's fans, who were occasionally hostile.

It's more of the former though. For the purposes of putting a team into the playoffs, I prefer something like quarters led or points in h2h games among tied teams (though that can be screwy) rather than differentiating home and road wins.

Argh, got distracted and off topic again.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 03:47:17 AM
Came to post this. From the NCAC conference office, for my friends who check the ATN board.

QuoteHere's our list of tiebreakers, as written by the coaches. They're slightly different than what I've seen on the boards, particularly #2. The trick with #2, and it may or may not apply in all scenarios, is you have to wait for the final standings to determine the tie-break. It may not apply depending on common opponents on the way down, and it could just as easily not break on the way up if teams all beat each other, but if that tie-breaker comes into play, we need to wait until Saturday is over because the final order of standings is the key.

1. Head-to-Head result(s) between tied teams.

2. Result(s) versus individual opponents examined in descending order, individually, until tie is broken. The tied teams must have a common opponent in order for the result to be considered; if not a common opponent, move to the next team in the standings. The first team to have beaten a higher-ranked team that is a common opponent wins the tiebreaker. If the tie is not broken in the descending order review, start from the bottom of the standings and examine opponents in ascending order. The first team to have lost to a lower-ranked team loses the tiebreaker (no common opponent provision in ascending review).

3. The team with the fewest losses in conference away games.

4. The team with the higher preseason power ranking used to determine conference schedule. This provision would not apply if a tiebreaker had been used to separate the teams in final power ranking.

5. The team with the longest active winning streak in conference play at the end of the season.

6. The team that has not participated in the NCAA playoffs for the longest period of years.

7. Coin Toss.

When three or more teams are tied, the same procedure shall be followed until one team is eliminated. The process shall then be repeated until one team emerges.

And, as you know this is just for the AQ, any tied teams will be declared co-champs.

If, for example, everybody at the top of the NCAC wins on Saturday, including Wabash over DePauw and Allegheny over Hiram ... then I believe there is nobody who has played all three of OWU, Witt and Kenyon and hasn't lost all three games. So go to ascending order, and the tie breaks with Kenyon having lost to OWU (and not played Witt or Wabash), and Witt and OWU having lost to Wabash, the lower-ranked (but 28 points better) team.

Witt plays at Oberlin
Denison at Kenyon
Wooster at OWU
DePauw at Wabash
Allegheny at Hiram

Many things could happen. What if the top three all lost and moved Wabash back into a tie at the top?

If it came down to conference away losses, only Kenyon has one. That would eliminate them and go back to OWU and Witt tied though, and it might go to preseason power ranking (which is a little wacky, to be honest)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 07, 2012, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 03:31:54 AM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

True, but that is balanced by infrequent overnight travel for many D-III teams, and in games when a team flies, I think it becomes a bigger deal.

I'm saying I don't value the data much. Teams do play better at home, but I don't think a win should be "worth" more based on where it took place. I have some of my own biases from being a player -- the fewer distractions thing being one, me personally enjoying travel and seeing new places and having time on the bus to focus on the tasks at hand, and enjoying the challenge of playing in front of another team's fans, who were occasionally hostile.

It's more of the former though. For the purposes of putting a team into the playoffs, I prefer something like quarters led or points in h2h games among tied teams (though that can be screwy) rather than differentiating home and road wins.

Argh, got distracted and off topic again.

K-Mack,

The highlighted quote simply doesn't make sense. If teams "do play better at home", it seems to me it makes it a lot harder to beat them at their place, making road wins more valuable? I get that you have a different personal preference and I don't want to belabor the point but your statement struck me as incongruous.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 01:13:31 PM
Quote from: USee on November 07, 2012, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 03:31:54 AM
Quote from: HScoach on November 06, 2012, 01:29:08 PM
At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

True, but that is balanced by infrequent overnight travel for many D-III teams, and in games when a team flies, I think it becomes a bigger deal.

I'm saying I don't value the data much. Teams do play better at home, but I don't think a win should be "worth" more based on where it took place. I have some of my own biases from being a player -- the fewer distractions thing being one, me personally enjoying travel and seeing new places and having time on the bus to focus on the tasks at hand, and enjoying the challenge of playing in front of another team's fans, who were occasionally hostile.

It's more of the former though. For the purposes of putting a team into the playoffs, I prefer something like quarters led or points in h2h games among tied teams (though that can be screwy) rather than differentiating home and road wins.

Argh, got distracted and off topic again.

K-Mack,

The highlighted quote simply doesn't make sense. If teams "do play better at home", it seems to me it makes it a lot harder to beat them at their place, making road wins more valuable? I get that you have a different personal preference and I don't want to belabor the point but your statement struck me as incongruous.

One win is worth one win no matter where it takes place. It's really not a difficult concept. It's harder to score a touchdown from 60 yards out than 1 yard out, but either way it's worth six points.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 07, 2012, 01:22:08 PM
Ok. So it's just your personal opinion. I realized it's not a hard concept, I graduated from school too.  We can agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on November 07, 2012, 01:27:29 PM
I think road wins vs. regionally ranked opponents should count double.    ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2012, 02:52:49 PM
Regional rankings are out:
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2012/11/07/second-2012-ncaa-regional-rankings/
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 07:02:39 PM
Quote from: USee on November 07, 2012, 01:22:08 PM
Ok. So it's just your personal opinion. I realized it's not a hard concept, I graduated from school too.  We can agree to disagree.

Yes, lets.

I'm not saying road trips and field conditions never matter, but I think their effect is sometimes overblown, especially with regard to D-III football. I never missed a tackle on the road that I would have made at home, I don't think. Once the game starts, it's often the same. I tuned crowds out during the action a lot too because my mind was so into the game.

It is just an opinion. I don't mind if other people disagree. Pat's a big road team +3 guy.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on November 09, 2012, 11:36:12 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 07, 2012, 01:27:29 PM
I think road wins vs. regionally ranked opponents should count double.    ;D

I'll take that as well!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 10, 2012, 09:29:37 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 07, 2012, 07:02:39 PM
Quote from: USee on November 07, 2012, 01:22:08 PM
Ok. So it's just your personal opinion. I realized it's not a hard concept, I graduated from school too.  We can agree to disagree.

Yes, lets.

I'm not saying road trips and field conditions never matter, but I think their effect is sometimes overblown, especially with regard to D-III football. I never missed a tackle on the road that I would have made at home, I don't think. Once the game starts, it's often the same. I tuned crowds out during the action a lot too because my mind was so into the game.

It is just an opinion. I don't mind if other people disagree. Pat's a big road team +3 guy.

This would be a fairly easy thing to get stats on.  Download the results database for the last five years and compute the average MOV for the home team.   As an enhancement, compute the distance between teams and see if there is a further correlation between distance traveled and MOV.

I've seen way too many bizarre results in the SCAC over the years to say there's no homefield advantage, but until this year the travel distances in the conference were very unusual for D3.   I could lean more towards Keith's POV for your typical hour or two down the road trip. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2012, 03:37:05 PM
Quote from: umhb2001 on November 09, 2012, 11:36:12 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 07, 2012, 01:27:29 PM
I think road wins vs. regionally ranked opponents should count double.    ;D

I'll take that as well!

Appreciate all the insight on this. You guys have put a smile on my face at least.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
Selection Sunday maybe not the best time to discuss this ... but going to start a running brainstorm of things that should be included in the Year in Review. Totally not complete yet, and if you are one of the fans who follows what's happening outside your own team (aka the awesome D3 fans who actually check this particular thread), please quote and add to it. I will use it later as a starting point for the annual (most years) column.

Definite:
Sam Durley 736 passing yards
Baldwin-Wallace suspension
SRSU vs. TLU (and all the scoring in ASC)
Craziest Pool C ever
Bethel-Concordia ending

Maybe:
Dutchman's Shoes & Cortaca Jug endings

I'm sure there's a gabillion more things but just trying to get it started (Hammer, uh-oh uh-oh)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 11, 2012, 04:09:51 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 11, 2012, 03:43:11 PM
Selection Sunday maybe not the best time to discuss this ... but going to start a running brainstorm of things that should be included in the Year in Review. Totally not complete yet, and if you are one of the fans who follows what's happening outside your own team (aka the awesome D3 fans who actually check this particular thread), please quote and add to it. I will use it later as a starting point for the annual (most years) column.

Definite:
Sam Durley 736 passing yards
Baldwin-Wallace suspension
SRSU vs. TLU (and all the scoring in ASC)
Craziest Pool C ever
Bethel-Concordia ending

Maybe:
Dutchman's Shoes & Cortaca Jug endings

I'm sure there's a gabillion more things but just trying to get it started (Hammer, uh-oh uh-oh)
I think UWW going 7-3 after 3 straight titles and 7 Stagg Bowls in a row has to be in there somewhere
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 11, 2012, 05:09:38 PM
I think you could gather a list of single plays that shaped the playoff hopes of this crazy pool C year. We don't know yet but the end of the Bethel/Concordia-M game may be one example. Another could be some play/game in the NCAC that resulted in the wackiest tiebreaker ever. In the CCIW, you have  a handful of plays that could have changed Elmhursts (and wheaton, NCC's) season's. Millikin fumbling at the one in OT to give Elmhurst the win vs a loss, Wheaton giving up a 4th and 9 v Albion that was the game winning TD, Elmhurst stopping Wheaton on 4th and 1 at the 2 yd line to preserve a win, NCC kicking it deep vs an onsides to preserve the pt spread tie break, IWU losing their starting QB with 29 seconds left in what may have been a game winning drive vs Wheaton (they didn't win again)......I am sure many other conferences have 1 play that turned the tide for the season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 11, 2012, 05:31:57 PM
- What appeared to be a deep Pool B cannibalizing itself and how that happened.
- Most unlikely Pool A teams (not really that original)
- All the Gagliardi drama, is this or isn't this his last season, should he retire, etc.
- Team with high expectations most undone by injuries (e.g. IWU), team that overcame the most injuries to keep competing (e.g. UST, et al.) including the details of who got hurt, how and for how long
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 11, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
Year in Review:   How about the amazing turn around of Heidelberg under Mike Hallett?  From 36 game losing streak to first ever playoff berth in just a handful of years.

And it took a blocked Baldwin Wallace FG attempt in the final seconds for H'Berg to survive week 10.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2012, 10:42:06 PM
Quote from: USee on November 11, 2012, 05:09:38 PM
I think you could gather a list of single plays that shaped the playoff hopes of this crazy pool C year. We don't know yet but the end of the Bethel/Concordia-M game may be one example. Another could be some play/game in the NCAC that resulted in the wackiest tiebreaker ever.

It was one of the wackiest. The year the Centennial had five 5-2 teams I don't think will ever be topped.

Agree on the additions and suggestions so far.

Heidelberg's story is not full written yet either. They could play three playoff games maybe. Would certainly get me off the hook for ranking the OAC No. 2 again lol
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on November 11, 2012, 10:47:26 PM
Keith, you were the first and only one to call elm hurst in the playoffs!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 11, 2012, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: USee on November 11, 2012, 10:47:26 PM
Keith, you were the first and only one to call elm hurst in the playoffs!

Truth. Maybe the best advertisement for Kickoff yet. Called Heidelberg in that article too.

Also said Susquehanna would win the Centennial. :( ... Went back and forth between Susque, F&M and McDaniel.

That's why they play the games.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 13, 2012, 01:34:15 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?

I'm guessing the commentator was admitting his surprise that aTm, freshly from the Big 12, was actually finding success in the SEC.

That said, Sumlin, their new HC came over from Houston this year. So the offense is new, but it is actually just as in keeping with the Big 12 as ever with the changes.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 01:52:40 AM
Quote from: hazzben on November 13, 2012, 01:34:15 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?

I'm guessing the commentator was admitting his surprise that aTm, freshly from the Big 12, was actually finding success in the SEC.

That said, Sumlin, their new HC came over from Houston this year. So the offense is new, but it is actually just as in keeping with the Big 12 as ever with the changes.

Gotcha.

The more things we've added here at D-III, the less attention I've paid to D-I. I know virtually nothing about what took place last weekend except for A&M beating Alabama, and U-Va beating Miami, only because I just read a story about it for my FT job.

I am enjoying football plenty, however.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 13, 2012, 06:07:39 AM
Quote from: hazzben on November 13, 2012, 01:34:15 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?

I'm guessing the commentator was admitting his surprise that aTm, freshly from the Big 12, was actually finding success in the SEC.

That said, Sumlin, their new HC came over from Houston this year. So the offense is new, but it is actually just as in keeping with the Big 12 as ever with the changes.

The announcer must have forgotten that all of A&M's players instantly got a .10 faster and 20 lbs bigger once the school switched conferences.  SEC colored glasses are kind of the inverse of the TV camera than instantly puts on 10 to 20 pounds.   ::)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on November 13, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 13, 2012, 06:07:39 AM
Quote from: hazzben on November 13, 2012, 01:34:15 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?

I'm guessing the commentator was admitting his surprise that aTm, freshly from the Big 12, was actually finding success in the SEC.

That said, Sumlin, their new HC came over from Houston this year. So the offense is new, but it is actually just as in keeping with the Big 12 as ever with the changes.

The announcer must have forgotten that all of A&M's players instantly got a .10 faster and 20 lbs bigger once the school switched conferences.  SEC colored glasses are kind of the inverse of the TV camera than instantly puts on 10 to 20 pounds.   ::)

Texas A&M Has a pretty good QB this year. QBs like him have done well in the SEC previously.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on November 14, 2012, 01:17:08 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 13, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 13, 2012, 06:07:39 AM
Quote from: hazzben on November 13, 2012, 01:34:15 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?

I'm guessing the commentator was admitting his surprise that aTm, freshly from the Big 12, was actually finding success in the SEC.

That said, Sumlin, their new HC came over from Houston this year. So the offense is new, but it is actually just as in keeping with the Big 12 as ever with the changes.

The announcer must have forgotten that all of A&M's players instantly got a .10 faster and 20 lbs bigger once the school switched conferences.  SEC colored glasses are kind of the inverse of the TV camera than instantly puts on 10 to 20 pounds.   ::)

Texas A&M Has a pretty good QB this year. QBs like him have done well in the SEC previously.
Good QB is putting it mildly. As a guy who grew up with the old SWC and then the Big 12, the SEC rules all thing really bothers me. (Doesn't help that my family is from north central AL so its ROLL TIDE!!! all the time) I think judging a conferences SOS based on how they play themselves is ridiculous. It does my heart good to see a team that was just in the pack most years in the Big 12, do what A&M has done in the SEC.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on November 14, 2012, 01:21:19 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2012, 12:52:53 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 12, 2012, 11:59:04 PM
During the Texas A&M Bama game one of the announcers commented that he didn't think a Big 12 offense would be effective in the SEC. Makes me think that the ASC scoring offenses might be indicative of whats going on in the region (especially in Texas) at all levels. While not necessarily Year in Review material, certainly material for something somewhere down the road.

Good thought. I appreciate that.

Odd comment since Texas A&M's offense was a Big 12 offense until this season, and they beat Bama. Did they make a switch?
I would add that the degree to which 7 on 7 is taken seriously in this state has added to the growth of highly skilled skill position players in the region. Look at the number of Texas boys playing QB across the country.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 14, 2012, 08:16:57 PM
I have not run the numbers with the switch of Texas A&M to the SEC.

However, back in the mid 1990's, Arkansas' departure from the old Southwest Conference to the SEC raised the mean freshman class entrance exam (SAT/ACT) scores of the member institutions in both conferences.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM
Okay, this D-I talk stops here.

Updated year in review brainstorm. Still open to suggestions

- Sam Durley 736 passing yards
- Baldwin-Wallace suspension
- SRSU vs. TLU (and all the scoring in ASC)
- Craziest Pool C ever
- Bethel-Concordia ending
- Dutchman Shoes & Cortaca Jug endings
- UW-W going 7-3 after 3 straight titles and 7 Stagg Bowls in a row
- a list of single plays that shaped the playoff hopes of this crazy pool C
- What appeared to be a deep Pool B cannibalizing itself and how that happened.
- Most unlikely Pool A teams (not really that original)
- All the Gagliardi drama, is this or isn't this his last season, should he retire, etc.
- Team with high expectations most undone by injuries (e.g. IWU), team that overcame the most injuries to keep competing (e.g. UST, et al.) including the details of who got hurt, how and for how long
- How about the amazing turn around of Heidelberg under Mike Hallett?  From 36 game losing streak to first ever playoff berth in just a handful of years.
- And it took a blocked Baldwin Wallace FG attempt in the final seconds for H'Berg to survive week 10.

- Tim McNerney. (Also Bates player) ... W&J making playoffs.
- James Clay 2,000 rushing yards
- Wesley's insane schedule (also NWC, MIAC teams)


Thanks to FCGrizzliesGrad, USee, Hazzben, HSCoach for their contributions so far.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 14, 2012, 09:20:37 PM
My thought about Pool B's cannabilizing themselves is that this was basically the old SCAC just playing up to its potential.  Were this the 2011 season, we would be talking about the great race for a Pool A bid.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on November 14, 2012, 09:40:07 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM
Okay, this D-I talk stops here.



OK, thanks, ruler of the universe.  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 14, 2012, 09:42:28 PM
Two other breakthrough seasons in the North after many years of mediocrity (or worse): OWU and Elmhurst.  Probably not AS dramatic as Heidelberg, but worth noting.

You might also discuss the 'upset of the year'.  In retrospect it may not have been Buff St. over UWW, after all, but either UWSP over UWW or Oberlin over Wabash.

One final d1 note in response to Ralph's note about Arkansas and the Big 12 and SEC: I have read that Nebraska's switch from the Big 12 to the Big 10 LOWERED the average freshman scores in both conferences! ;D  (I can't confirm whether that is actually true, or just Big 10 arrogance. ;))
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 15, 2012, 12:23:26 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 14, 2012, 09:40:07 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM
Okay, this D-I talk stops here.

OK, thanks, ruler of the universe.  :P

Respect my authoritah.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: SUADC on November 15, 2012, 08:28:30 AM
Loved the team-by-team capsules. Keith, are you planning to make the trip to Salisbury this weekend?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 15, 2012, 10:59:18 AM
Just an FYI, but W&L is 0-2 in NCAA playoffs. You have them listed as 0-1 (2006), but you left off their admittedly forgettable defeat to TMC in 2010...
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: art76 on November 15, 2012, 01:18:40 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM
Okay, this D-I talk stops here.

Updated year in review brainstorm. Still open to suggestions

- Sam Durley 736 passing yards
- Baldwin-Wallace suspension
- SRSU vs. TLU (and all the scoring in ASC)
- Craziest Pool C ever
- Bethel-Concordia ending
- Dutchman Shoes & Cortaca Jug endings
- UW-W going 7-3 after 3 straight titles and 7 Stagg Bowls in a row
- a list of single plays that shaped the playoff hopes of this crazy pool C
- What appeared to be a deep Pool B cannibalizing itself and how that happened.
- Most unlikely Pool A teams (not really that original)
- All the Gagliardi drama, is this or isn't this his last season, should he retire, etc.
- Team with high expectations most undone by injuries (e.g. IWU), team that overcame the most injuries to keep competing (e.g. UST, et al.) including the details of who got hurt, how and for how long
- How about the amazing turn around of Heidelberg under Mike Hallett?  From 36 game losing streak to first ever playoff berth in just a handful of years.
- And it took a blocked Baldwin Wallace FG attempt in the final seconds for H'Berg to survive week 10.

- Tim McNerney. (Also Bates player) ... W&J making playoffs.
- James Clay 2,000 rushing yards
- Wesley's insane schedule (also NWC, MIAC teams)


Thanks to FCGrizzliesGrad, USee, Hazzben, HSCoach for their contributions so far.


Not sure where this would fit in, but maybe use the conference vs. non-conference record to show how you guys justify strong conferences and not so strong conferences. For example the MIAC was 16 and 2 in the regular season this year (including an NAIA loss by Gustavus to Valley City State), or 16 and 1 using only NCAA teams as opponents. Some research would need to be done and analysed to see how the 24 conferences did against one another.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 15, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
Quote from: art76 on November 15, 2012, 01:18:40 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 14, 2012, 08:34:00 PM
Okay, this D-I talk stops here.

Updated year in review brainstorm. Still open to suggestions

- Sam Durley 736 passing yards
- Baldwin-Wallace suspension
- SRSU vs. TLU (and all the scoring in ASC)
- Craziest Pool C ever
- Bethel-Concordia ending
- Dutchman Shoes & Cortaca Jug endings
- UW-W going 7-3 after 3 straight titles and 7 Stagg Bowls in a row
- a list of single plays that shaped the playoff hopes of this crazy pool C
- What appeared to be a deep Pool B cannibalizing itself and how that happened.
- Most unlikely Pool A teams (not really that original)
- All the Gagliardi drama, is this or isn't this his last season, should he retire, etc.
- Team with high expectations most undone by injuries (e.g. IWU), team that overcame the most injuries to keep competing (e.g. UST, et al.) including the details of who got hurt, how and for how long
- How about the amazing turn around of Heidelberg under Mike Hallett?  From 36 game losing streak to first ever playoff berth in just a handful of years.
- And it took a blocked Baldwin Wallace FG attempt in the final seconds for H'Berg to survive week 10.

- Tim McNerney. (Also Bates player) ... W&J making playoffs.
- James Clay 2,000 rushing yards
- Wesley's insane schedule (also NWC, MIAC teams)


Thanks to FCGrizzliesGrad, USee, Hazzben, HSCoach for their contributions so far.


Not sure where this would fit in, but maybe use the conference vs. non-conference record to show how you guys justify strong conferences and not so strong conferences. For example the MIAC was 16 and 2 in the regular season this year (including an NAIA loss by Gustavus to Valley City State), or 16 and 1 using only NCAA teams as opponents. Some research would need to be done and analysed to see how the 24 conferences did against one another.
Not to dispute that the MIAC was a strong conference this year (and usually always a Top 7 conference) but having the UMAC and the NATHC and Macalester to boost the non-conference record is always helpful.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 15, 2012, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 15, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
Not to dispute that the MIAC was a strong conference this year (and usually always a Top 7 conference) but having the UMAC and the NATHC and Macalester to boost the non-conference record is always helpful.

WIAC:3
IIAC: 6
UMAC:2
MWC: 1
NATHC:1
NCAC: 1
Mac: 3
NAIA: 2

Keep in mind, 2 of the 3 teams to play Mac were a combined 4 wins and are historic rivals of Mac. And 1 UMAC and the NATHC team were both 2nd or better in their crappy conferences.

It's not a ridiculous non-con slate, but it's not the utter patsies like your post implied either. Given our proximity to the WIAC, UMAC, MWC, IIAC and Mac, this makes pretty good sense.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: TheOsprey on November 15, 2012, 11:27:10 PM
Keith--  Rowan fans can take the Walt Whitman, however, the Commodore Barry might be a shorter trek!! ;)  Thanks for the support!! Go Profs!! 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 16, 2012, 12:35:16 AM
Quote from: hazzben on November 15, 2012, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 15, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
Not to dispute that the MIAC was a strong conference this year (and usually always a Top 7 conference) but having the UMAC and the NATHC and Macalester to boost the non-conference record is always helpful.

WIAC:3
IIAC: 6
UMAC:2
MWC: 1
NATHC:1
NCAC: 1
Mac: 3
NAIA: 2

Keep in mind, 2 of the 3 teams to play Mac were a combined 4 wins and are historic rivals of Mac. And 1 UMAC and the NATHC team were both 2nd or better in their crappy conferences.

It's not a ridiculous non-con slate, but it's not the utter patsies like your post implied either. Given our proximity to the WIAC, UMAC, MWC, IIAC and Mac, this makes pretty good sense.
Thanks for the excellent response. The good thing about playing the best of the worst is that it helps the SOS.  The other advantage is that you have 5 conferences and an independent that help broaden your "universe of schools" as the MIAC strengthens SOS.

The NWC, the SCIAC and the ASC are on such small islands that the "universe" of opponents from which one gets the SOS is only about 15 schools. The MIAC's universe is about 40 other schools.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 16, 2012, 07:26:32 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 16, 2012, 12:35:16 AM
Quote from: hazzben on November 15, 2012, 08:51:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 15, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
Not to dispute that the MIAC was a strong conference this year (and usually always a Top 7 conference) but having the UMAC and the NATHC and Macalester to boost the non-conference record is always helpful.

WIAC:3
IIAC: 6
UMAC:2
MWC: 1
NATHC:1
NCAC: 1
Mac: 3
NAIA: 2

Keep in mind, 2 of the 3 teams to play Mac were a combined 4 wins and are historic rivals of Mac. And 1 UMAC and the NATHC team were both 2nd or better in their crappy conferences.

It's not a ridiculous non-con slate, but it's not the utter patsies like your post implied either. Given our proximity to the WIAC, UMAC, MWC, IIAC and Mac, this makes pretty good sense.
Thanks for the excellent response. The good thing about playing the best of the worst is that it helps the SOS.  The other advantage is that you have 5 conferences and an independent that help broaden your "universe of schools" as the MIAC strengthens SOS.

The NWC, the SCIAC and the ASC are on such small islands that the "universe" of opponents from which one gets the SOS is only about 15 schools. The MIAC's universe is about 40 other schools.

Very true.  Which is why I don't think the pure SoS numbers are the most important factor in ranking/selecting/seeding the teams.  An outlier very high or low is telling, but looking only at SoS alone is flawed for the very reason you mentioned above. 

On the opposite end of the spectrum is the OAC where we play 9 conference games so there is little opportunity to build a resume and the WIAC where they end up playing themselves multiple times just to fill the schedule.  Looking at SoS numbers in both of those conferences is almost worthless. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
Quote from: TheOsprey on November 15, 2012, 11:27:10 PM
Keith--  Rowan fans can take the Walt Whitman, however, the Commodore Barry might be a shorter trek!! ;)  Thanks for the support!! Go Profs!!

I thought about that, but down on 322 is not my hood. I'm from the Black Horse Pike man ... Once you start talking Commodore Barry, Tacony-Palmyra and Betsy Ross, I get a little lost lol

(kidding. The other two are north, right? T-P is at the end of 70 or whatever in Pennsauken, right?)

Anyway I'll take note for future reference. Appreciate it.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 12:20:26 PM
Quote from: SUADC on November 15, 2012, 08:28:30 AM
Loved the team-by-team capsules. Keith, are you planning to make the trip to Salisbury this weekend

No can do. I got the 12-8 shift at the Post, which is random and abnormal, but also means I'll have two screens going on D-III games while I monitor the Terps and occasionally update the WP site. :D

I am thrilled that Salisbury, Hopkins, Wesley, Rowan and Widener all made it. I should definitely be at a game somewhere in Round 2. And monitoring 10 of 16 Round 1 games via video, while it will never replace being there, is not a bad consolation.

Someday I will have no "other job" and kids who are too busy to need Dad on the weekends, and I will go to the best game each round, and die a happy man.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on November 16, 2012, 03:00:48 PM
KMack, great job with the playoff piece.  One point of clarification on the pool C's though is that the LL has gotten at least 3 pool C bids in the conference era 2004 and beyond.  Hobart actually was a pool C in 2005-2007, not just 2006.  Union was the AQ in 2005 & 2006 and RPI in 2007, but Bart only had the one loss each of those years and was in.  Beat Cortland at home in 2005, then lost to Del Val and lost at SJF in 2007.  Great work though. 

You should be watching the Hobart game tomorrow though.  My question is, do you root for the conference team, or root against the team that beat your team? 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 16, 2012, 08:08:39 PM
Root for the conference... every time!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: pumkinattack on November 16, 2012, 03:00:48 PM
KMack, great job with the playoff piece.  One point of clarification on the pool C's though is that the LL has gotten at least 3 pool C bids in the conference era 2004 and beyond.  Hobart actually was a pool C in 2005-2007, not just 2006.  Union was the AQ in 2005 & 2006 and RPI in 2007, but Bart only had the one loss each of those years and was in.  Beat Cortland at home in 2005, then lost to Del Val and lost at SJF in 2007.  Great work though. 

You should be watching the Hobart game tomorrow though.  My question is, do you root for the conference team, or root against the team that beat your team?

This might be hard to believe when you're pulling hard for a particular team, but I'll be happy either way. I enjoy D-III football and don't take pleasure in anyone's season coming to an end (save a couple of schools in Virginia farm country), but I always enjoy seeing teams move on and enjoy the fruits of their labor. Getting to play another week is one of the great rewards of the playoff system
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 10:21:55 PM
Here's a thought. In some of the way way back ATN YIRs, I used to give out a good/bad media recognition award. I got away from it because frankly I didn't even want to acknowledge the bums that don't put the time in to understand D-III, and then share their idiotic opinions.

I also don't care much when ESPN throws a random bone and pretends to care about D-III, although I'm glad the shoes folks enjoyed seeing that. I really liked it when they did a highlight every week, Inside Video, that was good.

I was, however, moved to tears by the treatment E:60 gave the Bluffton story. So I know when they really sink their teeth in, when anyone does, we (I?) really appreciate it. The piece Chuck Klostermann did on Amherst and Maine Maritime's offenses last year was outstanding as well.

So basically what I'm asking is should I revive the award, what should I name it, and who's done a nice job? It can be the local paper writing something poignant (W&J?) or a big outlet, what's important is they do outstanding work that gives D-III its propers.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: TheOsprey on November 17, 2012, 10:45:24 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
Quote from: TheOsprey on November 15, 2012, 11:27:10 PM
Keith--  Rowan fans can take the Walt Whitman, however, the Commodore Barry might be a shorter trek!! ;)  Thanks for the support!! Go Profs!!

I thought about that, but down on 322 is not my hood. I'm from the Black Horse Pike man ... Once you start talking Commodore Barry, Tacony-Palmyra and Betsy Ross, I get a little lost lol

(kidding. The other two are north, right? T-P is at the end of 70 or whatever in Pennsauken, right?)

Anyway I'll take note for future reference. Appreciate it.

I'm old enough to remember taking a ferry across that stretch of the river.  Thank goodness for progress!!  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2012, 07:12:02 PM
Quote from: TheOsprey on November 17, 2012, 10:45:24 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
Quote from: TheOsprey on November 15, 2012, 11:27:10 PM
Keith--  Rowan fans can take the Walt Whitman, however, the Commodore Barry might be a shorter trek!! ;)  Thanks for the support!! Go Profs!!

I thought about that, but down on 322 is not my hood. I'm from the Black Horse Pike man ... Once you start talking Commodore Barry, Tacony-Palmyra and Betsy Ross, I get a little lost lol

(kidding. The other two are north, right? T-P is at the end of 70 or whatever in Pennsauken, right?)

Anyway I'll take note for future reference. Appreciate it.

I'm old enough to remember taking a ferry across that stretch of the river.  Thank goodness for progress!!  :D

You got me there.

No Profs-Pride in Round 2. I wanted to see how many they'd draw for basically a double home game.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2012, 07:59:12 PM
Sorry, lazy ... and reposting.

Quote@D3Keith

Fairly typical results for Pool C teams (2-5). Five road tms winning is impressive. No upsets were major, even if Bethel was 7, Coe 3. #d3fb

With 32 playoff teams, some outside the @d3football top 25 get in the field. None, however, advance to Round 2. No. 24 Witt the lowest #d3fb
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on November 17, 2012, 09:13:56 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 10:21:55 PM
Here's a thought. In some of the way way back ATN YIRs, I used to give out a good/bad media recognition award. I got away from it because frankly I didn't even want to acknowledge the bums that don't put the time in to understand D-III, and then share their idiotic opinions.

I also don't care much when ESPN throws a random bone and pretends to care about D-III, although I'm glad the shoes folks enjoyed seeing that. I really liked it when they did a highlight every week, Inside Video, that was good.

I was, however, moved to tears by the treatment E:60 gave the Bluffton story. So I know when they really sink their teeth in, when anyone does, we (I?) really appreciate it. The piece Chuck Klostermann did on Amherst and Maine Maritime's offenses last year was outstanding as well.

So basically what I'm asking is should I revive the award, what should I name it, and who's done a nice job? It can be the local paper writing something poignant (W&J?) or a big outlet, what's important is they do outstanding work that gives D-III its propers.

Thoughts?

I thought the story I did for Around the South last year on Jonathan Pinque of Centre would have been great for  E:60 especially since they made the playoffs and gave Mount a game but they never bit on my inquiry.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on November 18, 2012, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 10:21:55 PM
Here's a thought. In some of the way way back ATN YIRs, I used to give out a good/bad media recognition award. I got away from it because frankly I didn't even want to acknowledge the bums that don't put the time in to understand D-III, and then share their idiotic opinions.

I also don't care much when ESPN throws a random bone and pretends to care about D-III, although I'm glad the shoes folks enjoyed seeing that. I really liked it when they did a highlight every week, Inside Video, that was good.

I was, however, moved to tears by the treatment E:60 gave the Bluffton story. So I know when they really sink their teeth in, when anyone does, we (I?) really appreciate it. The piece Chuck Klostermann did on Amherst and Maine Maritime's offenses last year was outstanding as well.

So basically what I'm asking is should I revive the award, what should I name it, and who's done a nice job? It can be the local paper writing something poignant (W&J?) or a big outlet, what's important is they do outstanding work that gives D-III its propers.

Thoughts?
I think its a great idea. However, I have no clue on a name. As for people who do a great job writing, Eric Drennen @ the Temple Daily Telegram does a fantastic job covering the Cru. Everything from game day coverage to personal interest stories.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on November 19, 2012, 07:36:04 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 10:21:55 PM
Here's a thought. In some of the way way back ATN YIRs, I used to give out a good/bad media recognition award. I got away from it because frankly I didn't even want to acknowledge the bums that don't put the time in to understand D-III, and then share their idiotic opinions.

I also don't care much when ESPN throws a random bone and pretends to care about D-III, although I'm glad the shoes folks enjoyed seeing that. I really liked it when they did a highlight every week, Inside Video, that was good.

I was, however, moved to tears by the treatment E:60 gave the Bluffton story. So I know when they really sink their teeth in, when anyone does, we (I?) really appreciate it. The piece Chuck Klostermann did on Amherst and Maine Maritime's offenses last year was outstanding as well.

So basically what I'm asking is should I revive the award, what should I name it, and who's done a nice job? It can be the local paper writing something poignant (W&J?) or a big outlet, what's important is they do outstanding work that gives D-III its propers.

Thoughts?

Eric Drennan at the Temple Daily Telegram in Temple, TX, does an OUTSTANDING job covering the Cru. He does player stories during the week, a Friday story, and then a follow up Sunday after the game and Tuesday after the weekly press conference. He definitely deserves some cred!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: umhb2001 on November 19, 2012, 07:37:46 AM
Quote from: Toby Taff on November 18, 2012, 08:48:41 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 16, 2012, 10:21:55 PM
Here's a thought. In some of the way way back ATN YIRs, I used to give out a good/bad media recognition award. I got away from it because frankly I didn't even want to acknowledge the bums that don't put the time in to understand D-III, and then share their idiotic opinions.

I also don't care much when ESPN throws a random bone and pretends to care about D-III, although I'm glad the shoes folks enjoyed seeing that. I really liked it when they did a highlight every week, Inside Video, that was good.

I was, however, moved to tears by the treatment E:60 gave the Bluffton story. So I know when they really sink their teeth in, when anyone does, we (I?) really appreciate it. The piece Chuck Klostermann did on Amherst and Maine Maritime's offenses last year was outstanding as well.

So basically what I'm asking is should I revive the award, what should I name it, and who's done a nice job? It can be the local paper writing something poignant (W&J?) or a big outlet, what's important is they do outstanding work that gives D-III its propers.

Thoughts?
I think its a great idea. However, I have no clue on a name. As for people who do a great job writing, Eric Drennen @ the Temple Daily Telegram does a fantastic job covering the Cru. Everything from game day coverage to personal interest stories.

I totally did not see your post until after I posted mine!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 19, 2012, 10:33:46 AM
It's hard to call out as a positive something we can never read. :(
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 19, 2012, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 19, 2012, 10:33:46 AM
It's hard to call out as a positive something we can never read. :(
I assume that you are referring to the pay-for-subscription policy by the Temple Daily Telegram.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 19, 2012, 01:04:00 PM
First met Eric either in Belton or in Newport News when UMHB played CNU, and the point is, he travels with the team and knows it well.

He wrote for Kickoff one year and we asked him back but he declined. Not sure if he had too much other work or Kickoff was too much work or something else, but we've always appreciated him.

I guess I was looking for specific instances of outstanding coverage. A story or a column ... maybe it comes with today's John Gagliardi news. Which was not necessarily news at all except that he made it definite. Some of his non-answers to reporters' questions late in the season made it seem like the thought had legs.

QuoteGagliardi retires The all-time winningest coach in college football history announced he is retiring, as John Gagliardi will step down after 60 years at St. John's and 489 wins as a collegiate head coach.

Couple numbers for the year in review there.

Also the consecutive points in Witt's comeback, or maybe the 42 UMHB scored in the first half or 28 Franklin had in the second quarter. Widener's tale of two halves. The missed 2pc for Conc-Chi and missed PAT for Framingham State. Pool C 2-5, road teams 5-11, upsets by seed I think there were three. Or maybe that was by D3football.com ranking.

Any new brainstorm based on this past weekend?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on November 19, 2012, 11:35:36 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 19, 2012, 10:33:46 AM
It's hard to call out as a positive something we can never read. :(
Sorry, Pat. I subscribe to keep tabs on Temple area news and to read info on UMHB sports
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 19, 2012, 11:52:33 PM
I understand, believe me. It's the paper that disappoints me.  :-\
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middlerelief on November 24, 2012, 06:58:26 PM
I think kudos are in order to the D3football.com community.

Clearly the process you guys have in place to construct your Top 25 Polls works - just noticed that of the 8 remaining teams, they are comprised of rankings 1-7, and 9.

Not too bad!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 24, 2012, 08:32:20 PM
Kudos to the NCAA seeding too.  All 4 regions are #1 vs #2.

Yuck.  I can't believe I just typed that.............
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 25, 2012, 12:10:26 AM
Quote from: middlerelief on November 24, 2012, 06:58:26 PM
I think kudos are in order to the D3football.com community.

Clearly the process you guys have in place to construct your Top 25 Polls works - just noticed that of the 8 remaining teams, they are comprised of rankings 1-7, and 9.

Not too bad!

Thanks -- and that's the maximum that could have advanced, since 8 was seeded to play 1 in the second round.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Teamski on November 26, 2012, 09:37:01 AM
Kieth is usually on top of things on the Around the Nation podcast, but he made the comment that Cortland State outgained Wesley in the game.  Wha????  They had but 66 yards rushing and 128 yards passing which were far less than what Wesley attained in the game.  Wesley has trailed in time of possession in the last two games because of offensive efficiency, not because they were being outgained.  Sorry, but I have to point that out.  Give Wesley some credit.

-Ski
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 26, 2012, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: Teamski on November 26, 2012, 09:37:01 AM
Kieth is usually on top of things on the Around the Nation podcast, but he made the comment that Cortland State outgained Wesley in the game.  Wha????  They had but 66 yards rushing and 128 yards passing which were far less than what Wesley attained in the game.  Wesley has trailed in time of possession in the last two games because of offensive efficiency, not because they were being outgained.  Sorry, but I have to point that out.  Give Wesley some credit.

-Ski
194 yds for Cortland; 360 yds total offense for Wesley
Cortland St at Wesley box score (http://www.d3football.com/seasons/2012/boxscores/20121124_iev7.xml)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 26, 2012, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: Teamski on November 26, 2012, 09:37:01 AM
Kieth is usually on top of things on the Around the Nation podcast, but he made the comment that Cortland State outgained Wesley in the game.  Wha????  They had but 66 yards rushing and 128 yards passing which were far less than what Wesley attained in the game.  Wesley has trailed in time of possession in the last two games because of offensive efficiency, not because they were being outgained.  Sorry, but I have to point that out.  Give Wesley some credit.

-Ski

Alright, so Keith misread the box score, but I'm pretty sure Wesley has gotten a crap-load of credit from us so perhaps you also misspoke.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Teamski on November 26, 2012, 11:15:42 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 26, 2012, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: Teamski on November 26, 2012, 09:37:01 AM
Kieth is usually on top of things on the Around the Nation podcast, but he made the comment that Cortland State outgained Wesley in the game.  Wha????  They had but 66 yards rushing and 128 yards passing which were far less than what Wesley attained in the game.  Wesley has trailed in time of possession in the last two games because of offensive efficiency, not because they were being outgained.  Sorry, but I have to point that out.  Give Wesley some credit.

-Ski

Alright, so Keith misread the box score, but I'm pretty sure Wesley has gotten a crap-load of credit from us so perhaps you also misspoke.

Well, I did post before I heard out the entire podcast, so I was a bit quick worded.  My apologies.

-Ski
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: shepherd on November 26, 2012, 01:06:34 PM
Pat and Keith - I really love the Podcast every week as it makes my Monday mornings brighter.   Having said that did you guys talk about the Elmhurst game?  Maybe I missed it.  Anyway I really look forward to it every week.
Thanks
Go Thunder
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: art76 on November 26, 2012, 02:29:48 PM
Pat and Keith, Thanx again for a great podcast this morning. I finally have a few moments to let you know. I might have missed it, but I was waiting for one of you to bring up the fact that there were no more two loss teams left because all 4 got knocked out. And now there is only one team with a loss left in Wesley, everybody else left is undefeated. I was kind of hoping that one of the two loss teams (Bethel, North Central, Franklin or Salisbury) could have broken through to this level because of all the pre-selection chatter concerning pool C teams. (I know Bethel was the last Pool C team left). Maybe next year we'll have a 2 loss team get a little further. Looking forward to your triple take column on Friday as you guys dissect the teams in minutiae.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 26, 2012, 03:33:15 PM
Art76 -- good point. We were focused on the fact that none of the lower-ranked teams advanced, and that's pretty similar.

Go Thunder -- we definitely talked about it. I have notes on my screen about Elmhurst shortening the game and limiting UST to 50 snaps on offense, and Keith talked about how the UST defense limited Elmhurst to three points in the final XX minutes.

We did have some recording issues and had to re-tape the last 6-8 minutes (three times!) but I didn't detect any other gaps in the recording that would indicate something of that magnitude dropping from the recording.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 05:45:21 PM
I already apologized on the podcast thread for the Wesley mix-up. I think I just saw that the Wolverines were under 200 yards passing and under 400 total and was trying to make the point that they scored 56 points without putting up a major yardage total. Maybe I transposed the numbers or maybe I just had a case of foot-in-mouth while talking for a good portion of the hour and 17 minutes, but it happens and it's been publically corrected.

Elmhurst, we did glaze over the game to a degree, but this podcast was very forward-focused on the final eight and the matchups and strengths/weaknesses, and less looking back at Saturday. We didn't talk about Wittenberg or Franklin all that much either, and I had a ton of insight on Salisbury-Widener that just wasn't relevant there at the end or would have turned it into an even longer recording.

At this point in the year, Pat and I could probably do a half-hour podcast a day and not repeat ourselves much. There's plenty to talk about, but the site would have to be funded as a full-time venture for us to meet that kind of demand.

I appreciate all the comments, kind and otherwise. Always good to know, from Twitter and fans on site and coaches, that people really do listen. It's tough for me to come home from work on an NFL Sunday and boot up to record for 90 minutes (when you factor in setup). I know Pat has to wait up to accommodate my schedule, so the fact that it is well received makes that all worth it.

The real reason I came by to post is because I promised a UW-Oshkosh parent some good Portland/McMinnville recommendations, but it can't hurt to ask the greater audience what they'd point someone towards if they were spending their Christmas fund to fly from Oshkosh to Oregon for a D-III game. Help out if you can:

QuoteBooked the flight last night on Expedia. We had to fly into Seattle to make the budget work and drive down, but we have two half days in Portland and McNinnville, and would love any local suggestions. As I said we are on a tight budget, as this is our xmas money, as my son is a senior, and I won't miss his potential last game. So any diners type restaurants or family restaurants? I can't handle fast food, but I love the little family joints.

I asked Catdome Alumni to weigh in, but anyone familiar with Portland or McMinnville, chime in.

I definitely gave some Widener folks some Alliance pointers, but mostly it was that there's not a whole lot to do there. They were booked at the Super 8!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 26, 2012, 06:48:12 PM
K-Mack:   The best thing to do when attending a game in Alliance is to stay in nearby Canton and hit the Pro Football HOF.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 06:59:15 PM
Here are the potential Stagg Bowls and my snap judgment storylines to seeing those two names paired together, if I had one:

Mount Union vs. Linfield: <---- Been a long time coming.
Mount Union vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Oshkosh playing the role of UW-Whitewater.
Mount Union vs. Hobart
Mount Union vs. St. Thomas <---- All purple, all the time.
UMHB vs. Linfield <---- 2004 rematch.
UMHB vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Holy offense Batman. Great QBs. Maybe the matchup I want to see?
UMHB vs. Hobart
UMHB vs. St. Thomas
Wesley vs. Linfield <---- rematch of last year's Round 2; I know Linfield wants another shot.
Wesley vs. UW-Oshkosh
Wesley vs. Hobart <---- rematch of last year's Round 1.
Wesley vs. St. Thomas <---- Both semifinal losers from last year break through.
Widener vs. Linfield <---- A gajillion passing yards.
Widener vs. UW-Oshkosh
Widener vs. Hobart <---- East Region prevails, Frank Rossi drools with glee Bowl
Widener vs. St. Thomas



Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 07:26:18 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 26, 2012, 06:48:12 PM
K-Mack:   The best thing to do when attending a game in Alliance is to stay in nearby Canton and hit the Pro Football HOF.

Which was precisely my advice; Go to Canton, stay in Akron or even Cleveland and drive down. Or enjoy Alliance but don't expect more than a meal and a place to stay.

I have tried the Pro Football HOF only once on my many Alliance trips, and when I got there it was closing for a private event. But I have been to the Bob Evans in Salem like three or four times!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2012, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 06:59:15 PM
Here are the potential Stagg Bowls and my snap judgment storylines to seeing those two names paired together, if I had one:

Mount Union vs. Linfield: <---- Been a long time coming.
Mount Union vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Oshkosh playing the role of UW-Whitewater.
Mount Union vs. Hobart            (In other years, this would be the "East" Regional final in the Round of 8)
Mount Union vs. St. Thomas <---- All purple, all the time.
UMHB vs. Linfield <---- 2004 rematch.
UMHB vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Holy offense Batman. Great QBs. Maybe the matchup I want to see?
UMHB vs. Hobart              (Is the East really this good?  Texans want to know!)
UMHB vs. St. Thomas        (Still purple!)
Wesley vs. Linfield <---- rematch of last year's Round 2; I know Linfield wants another shot.
Wesley vs. UW-Oshkosh             (Another version of Wesley versus the WIAC)
Wesley vs. Hobart <---- rematch of last year's Round 1.
Wesley vs. St. Thomas <---- Both semifinal losers from last year break through.
Widener vs. Linfield <---- A gajillion passing yards.
Widener vs. UW-Oshkosh     (MAC/East Region back in the Stagg Bowl. Reminds you of the 1990's.)
Widener vs. Hobart <---- East Region prevails, Frank Rossi drools with glee Bowl
Widener vs. St. Thomas      (Widener has a 1977/1981 Stagg veteran re-union gala on the night before the game.)   

I thought of story lines for the rest.  C'mon fans, weigh in!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MonroviaCat on November 27, 2012, 10:03:09 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2012, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 06:59:15 PM
Here are the potential Stagg Bowls and my snap judgment storylines to seeing those two names paired together, if I had one:

Mount Union vs. Linfield: <---- Been a long time coming. AND PURPLE
Mount Union vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Oshkosh playing the role of UW-Whitewater.
Mount Union vs. Hobart            (In other years, this would be the "East" Regional final in the Round of 8)
Mount Union vs. St. Thomas <---- All purple, all the time.
UMHB vs. Linfield <---- 2004 rematch .AND PURPLE
UMHB vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Holy offense Batman. Great QBs. Maybe the matchup I want to see?
UMHB vs. Hobart              (Is the East really this good?  Texans want to know!)
UMHB vs. St. Thomas        (Still purple!)
Wesley vs. Linfield <---- rematch of last year's Round 2; I know Linfield wants another shot.
Wesley vs. UW-Oshkosh             (Another version of Wesley versus the WIAC)
Wesley vs. Hobart <---- rematch of last year's Round 1.
Wesley vs. St. Thomas <---- Both semifinal losers from last year break through.
Widener vs. Linfield <---- A gajillion passing yards.
Widener vs. UW-Oshkosh     (MAC/East Region back in the Stagg Bowl. Reminds you of the 1990's.)
Widener vs. Hobart <---- East Region prevails, Frank Rossi drools with glee Bowl
Widener vs. St. Thomas      (Widener has a 1977/1981 Stagg veteran re-union gala on the night before the game.)   

I thought of story lines for the rest.  C'mon fans, weigh in!
added a few (well one thought a couple of times).... :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pumkinattack on November 27, 2012, 10:32:10 AM
Hobart is Purple & Orange (Cuse stole our Orange) as well. 

Widener's HC, Ike Collins, was an assistant at Hobart for a bit (I remember him from my days there, he had to work with an excellent RB - Mark Logan, who got displaced as a JR by an even better FR - Keith Brandon, and performed that difficult task very well).  That could be a storyline on that one. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: NCF on November 27, 2012, 10:54:14 AM
C'mon, everyone knows the "real" Stagg Bowl takes place in the semi's this year if Mount plays UMHB. ;D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 27, 2012, 11:09:42 AM
Quote from: pumkinattack on November 27, 2012, 10:32:10 AM
Hobart is Purple & Orange (Cuse stole our Orange) as well. 

Widener's HC, Ike Collins, was an assistant at Hobart for a bit (I remember him from my days there, he had to work with an excellent RB - Mark Logan, who got displaced as a JR by an even better FR - Keith Brandon, and performed that difficult task very well).  That could be a storyline on that one.

Or that Jasper Collins, WR for Mount Union, is Ike's nephew and is a Geneva native... :)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: MonroviaCat on November 27, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
Quote from: newcardfan on November 27, 2012, 10:54:14 AM
C'mon, everyone knows the "real" Stagg Bowl takes place in the semi's this year if Mount plays UMHB. ;D
That's what we were saying back in 2005 when #2 Whitewater was sent to #1 Linfield in the quarterfinal game.  Whitewater won the shootout (we call it "The Game"), went on to destroy Wesley in the Semifinals and then.....lost to Mt. Union in the Stagg Bowl......
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 27, 2012, 07:55:12 PM
Quote from: Frank Rossi on November 27, 2012, 11:09:42 AM
Quote from: pumkinattack on November 27, 2012, 10:32:10 AM
Hobart is Purple & Orange (Cuse stole our Orange) as well. 

Widener's HC, Ike Collins, was an assistant at Hobart for a bit (I remember him from my days there, he had to work with an excellent RB - Mark Logan, who got displaced as a JR by an even better FR - Keith Brandon, and performed that difficult task very well).  That could be a storyline on that one.

Or that Jasper Collins, WR for Mount Union, is Ike's nephew and is a Geneva native... :)

It's almost like ... we should write a feature story on that! (see the front page (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/2012/mount-union-junior-spectacular-senior-season))

I did have the same Round of 8 thought as you Ralph.

The UW-O going out to Linfield angle as UW-W did has been floated as well and should be mentioned a little bit in a feature this week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2012, 06:31:51 PM
Quote from: middlerelief on November 24, 2012, 06:58:26 PM
I think kudos are in order to the D3football.com community.

Clearly the process you guys have in place to construct your Top 25 Polls works - just noticed that of the 8 remaining teams, they are comprised of rankings 1-7, and 9.

Not too bad!

Appreciate that.

As Pat noted on the podcast, it sets up almost like a bracket would if we got these eight teams and seeded them now. 1-4 are at home.

at No. 3 vs. No. 5
at No. 4 vs. No. 7
at No. 2 vs. No. 6
at No. 1 vs. No. 9

Some of those props should go to the committee too, as HScoach mentioned.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2012, 06:49:18 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 05:45:21 PM
The real reason I came by to post is because I promised a UW-Oshkosh parent some good Portland/McMinnville recommendations, but it can't hurt to ask the greater audience what they'd point someone towards if they were spending their Christmas fund to fly from Oshkosh to Oregon for a D-III game. Help out if you can:

QuoteBooked the flight last night on Expedia. We had to fly into Seattle to make the budget work and drive down, but we have two half days in Portland and McNinnville, and would love any local suggestions. As I said we are on a tight budget, as this is our xmas money, as my son is a senior, and I won't miss his potential last game. So any diners type restaurants or family restaurants? I can't handle fast food, but I love the little family joints.

I asked Catdome Alumni to weigh in, but anyone familiar with Portland or McMinnville, chime in.

I definitely gave some Widener folks some Alliance pointers, but mostly it was that there's not a whole lot to do there. They were booked at the Super 8!

Here's what I originally said:
I asked Ryan, who runs CatdomeAlumni, to give me some suggestions I could pass on to you. I've been to Portland twice -- it's a great dining out city -- and McMinnville/Linfield once. The school is about 45 minutes into Oregon wine country, not quite to the coast (which is great Beach in the summer, but that's neither here nor there).

Portland has a cool food truck scene, and VooDoo donuts are to die for. Try to get some of those while in town. I'm asking now about Seattle, Portland and McMinnville and I'll get back to you. I have family out that way as well so hopefully I'll point you toward something good.

Some stuff from my sister, who swears she's not a Portland expert:
We went to The Original which was a diner that is pretty cool. The put fruit loops on their pancakes and weird hipster stuff like that. McMinemins are always pretty neat places too. There are a few of them around the Portland area. Apizza Scholls and Pok Pok are supposed to be super good, but I cannot attest. We also did a lot of the food carts when we went a few years ago.  Portland is kinda known for that. Portland City Grill is a nicer restaurant  but has a decent happy hour with an amazing view of Portland. Hope that helps!

Me:
I went to Pok Pok and that Greek place with the spider that you took me to years back. Already recommended the food trucks and VooDoo Donuts. Thanks, this will help.

Her:
Oh yeah, how did I forget Voodoo donuts!  You should tell them to go to Vodoo II -- the wait lines are shorter.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2012, 04:09:59 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 27, 2012, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 26, 2012, 06:59:15 PM
Here are the potential Stagg Bowls and my snap judgment storylines to seeing those two names paired together, if I had one:

Mount Union vs. Linfield: <---- Been a long time coming.
Mount Union vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Oshkosh playing the role of UW-Whitewater.
Mount Union vs. Hobart            (In other years, this would be the "East" Regional final in the Round of 8)
Mount Union vs. St. Thomas <---- All purple, all the time.
UMHB vs. Linfield <---- 2004 rematch.
UMHB vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Holy offense Batman. Great QBs. Maybe the matchup I want to see?
UMHB vs. Hobart              (Is the East really this good?  Texans want to know!)
UMHB vs. St. Thomas        (Still purple!)
Wesley vs. Linfield <---- rematch of last year's Round 2; I know Linfield wants another shot.
Wesley vs. UW-Oshkosh             (Another version of Wesley versus the WIAC)
Wesley vs. Hobart <---- rematch of last year's Round 1.
Wesley vs. St. Thomas <---- Both semifinal losers from last year break through.
Widener vs. Linfield <---- A gajillion passing yards.
Widener vs. UW-Oshkosh     (MAC/East Region back in the Stagg Bowl. Reminds you of the 1990's.)
Widener vs. Hobart <---- East Region prevails, Frank Rossi drools with glee Bowl
Widener vs. St. Thomas      (Widener has a 1977/1981 Stagg veteran re-union gala on the night before the game.)   

I thought of story lines for the rest.  C'mon fans, weigh in!
I was trying to write a "catchy" headline for K-Mack's mythical Final Fours, but (47 + 72 = 119) to (7 + 17 = 24) is only a few banana peels shy of a quintuple monkey-stomp!

Of course UMHB gets to go to Alliance next week so we will see. UMU only put a double monkey stomp on JHU.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 01, 2012, 09:19:55 PM
There is no defending the East's performance today, and the future for it breaking through is pretty bleak since Hobart and Widener had performed as well as anybody coming in.

The new era of breaking up the overloaded West and North brackets means somebody's going to have to go beat an elite playoff team on the road in a shocker.

I tried to judge these teams on what they'd done, but clearly I should have gone safe with the picks and just relied on history of conference strength.

Updated potential matchups:
Mount Union vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- La Crosse in the 90s, Whitewater in the 2000s, is it Oshkosh's decade to be the WIAC team to beat Mount Union?. (also play them, then win at Linfield, then 2 years later win Stagg Bowl)

Mount Union vs. St. Thomas <---- Larry Kehres, genius coach vs. budding genius coach.

UMHB vs. UW-Oshkosh <---- Holy offense Batman. Great QBs. Maybe the matchup I want to see? (same tagline as last week) ... Least expected final since ??? W&J/Albion?

UMHB vs. St. Thomas <---- The other purple meat. New champion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 01, 2012, 09:22:49 PM
Someone was always going to have to go on the road to beat a team -- it's just that now it has to be in the quarterfinals instead of the semis.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 01, 2012, 09:28:20 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 01, 2012, 09:22:49 PM
Someone was always going to have to go on the road to beat a team -- it's just that now it has to be in the quarterfinals instead of the semis.

Yes, point clarified by my editor.

I don't really have a problem -- and I think I've been consistent on this over the years -- with a team having to play other top teams a round early, or on the road. At least it's not decided by the polls and computers. There's a chance to earn it, and while it might be rare, we've seen teams topple powerhouses.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2012, 02:46:34 AM
Reposted from the OAC boards. I wrote a little essay on being a D-III "pundit" and what the view is like from my seat. It belongs here more than anywhere else, as it's practically an ATN item, and this is where the most reasonable D-III fans tend to post, and I think you all might enjoy it if you have some time you're REALLY looking to kill:

Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 01, 2012, 10:30:20 PM
Quote from: HScoach on December 01, 2012, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: rscl70 on December 01, 2012, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 01, 2012, 09:05:00 PM
Quote from: rscl70 on December 01, 2012, 08:23:52 PM
This was the team all the pundits said would give Mount a game.

Huh? Who are these pundits? Or do you consider 52-14 a game?

Pat's take: Mount Union 52, Widener 14: I don't see Widener being able to slow down the Mount Union offense, which Burke has been running at a high level all season. The Purple Raiders might not run well but they won't have to this week, I don't think. The Haupt-to-Davis connection should be good for a couple of scores but not enough on a consistent basis to beat a team such as Mount Union.

Well, maybe only one pundit....."Keith's take: Mount Union 35, Widener 21: Let me say this up front: Widener deserves to be here. Having seen them play, they're more than just a sacrificial lamb for the Purple Raiders. They will score some points and put some pressure on Burke. This is the best team Mount Union has played all season, and the 25-point margins of victory floating around on the message boards sell the Pride a bit short."

Well, that one pundit thinks he knows way more about Mount than he actually does from watching a few games on STO.  I understand that D3.com, and the nation as a whole, is really sick of Mount being Mount, but his apparent agenda of looking for issues/shortcomings within this team is clouding his judgement.

Anyone that compares Kevin Burke to Zac Bruney hasn't been watching very closely or is trying to talk himself into something that isn't there.  The accuracy of that comparison ends with both being white, short guys that played QB for Mount.  The more accurate comparison would be Bill Borchert.  Yes, THAT Bill Borchert.

I'm not crazy enough to think that this Mount team is unbeatable, but it's good.  Even by Mount standards.  The only team in 20 years that I thought was untouchable was 1997, but even that team needed a late INT against Allegheny to survive a playoff game.  Whether this team plays well enough to beat MHB will be determined in a week, but this much I know, it's going to take either a complete collapse by Mount or a really good opponent to knock them out.

And in terms of Widener being the best team Mount has seen?  At least in regards to what we saw today, Heidelberg and Baldwin Wallace both have much, MUCH better defenses.  And John Carroll has a better QB and a better overall passing game.  And all three played Mount tougher.  And you can add Franklin to that list too. 

I'll give Widener credit that Anthony Davis is a stud WR, and their secondary was good, much better than I expected, but that's where it ended.  Mount was better at every other position, including QB.

I've never known Keith to have an agenda like that. Keith can come here and explain what he was thinking, but I'm sure it's not that he has some agenda against Mount Union. Besides, Keith knows that him saying it doesn't actually make it so. :)

Quote from: skunks_sidekick on December 02, 2012, 12:32:25 AM
Pat....over the now many years Keith has dialed down his rhetoric, but yah...somewhere down there he does still have a negative agenda against Mount.  He can't help it.  It's not mean......it's not obvious (anymore)......and it's not blunt.  But...on occasion..it's there.  It may just be that he is trying to be so fair or so balanced that he leans the other way by instinct. 

After getting to know Keith ("know" meaning chatting with him for a few minutes at a few Stagg Bowls), I really don't think he has an intentional agenda.  But,  I think subtly it comes out at times.  Again...maybe more trying to be fair to the extreme.

Yah Keith....we are talking about YOU.   ;)

And if you decide to come to town next weekend, please come to our get together Friday night.

I'll be totally honest with you guys.

You can talk about me all you want. I had my day as a player and wouldn't trade it for the world. I have never made the games about me and never will, but I also accept that with the role of columnist and analyst, I become the face of the game to some, the guy people love to prove wrong to others. This happens to me literally every week several times a week, between my e-mail and Twitter, etc.

I'm indifferent to it. I wouldn't even be here replying -- I'd be doing my final Lambert vote and reading through the Gagliardi packet, since I didn't want to vote until after today's games were played. But Pat mentioned it to me and said I should come reply. And if it wasn't HSCoach and skunks_sidekicks, guys I've met and whose opinions I respect and have built a name on the boards over the years, I probably wouldn't even bother with the reply.

You can call that big-timing if you want. I just think we have become so busy as we have added features over the years, with the podcast growing from 10 minutes to over an hour weekly, and the Triple Take and play of the week and the column -- and us still having families and full-time jobs -- that there just isn't time to sit on the message boards and reply to everyone who thinks they got slighted or proved me wrong or whatever. Usually I only hit the boards over at general football and the ATN boards, and of course, Twitter. Ninety-five percent chance if you reply to this, those are the only ways I'll see it. I'm gonna cc this to the ATN board for my own amusement.

I have many jobs with the site, but primarily I'm the national columnist and an analyst on the podcast and Twitter. Mostly what I do is look at things from the the bird's-eye view -- not from the perspective of rooting for one particular team, but rather trying to piece together the 239-piece, coast-to-coast puzzle that is D-III football.

In doing that, and being one of the fortunate few people who has seen games from Mount Union to St. John's to UW-Whitewater to Linfield to Wesley to Mary Hardin-Baylor and to 80 other places in between, I have gained some knowledge that I feel is my job to share with those of you who are following one team every Saturday. My area of expertise is explaining to fans where their team and conference fits into the national picture and the overall puzzle, and educating fans on #d3fb. Everywhere I go, fans and coaches and administrators and players stop me and tell me how much they appreciate me and Pat and everyone else. I remember going down to the hotel lobby in Lancaster, Pa. to buy a newspaper with a four-inch blurb on the Franklin & Marshall trip in 1997, and together, those things remind me that we are providing a service that's of value to people. When I see friends who have met on the message board travel and met up and make friends and share mutual respect, that's what fulfills me as far as doing this.

[Cont'd next post]
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 02, 2012, 02:47:03 AM

As far as being the guy who picks the most games right, I couldn't care less. I mean my pride makes me care a little bit, but the picks are forgotten not long after game week and it's on to the next one. As they should be. It should never be about the picks; it's about the games and the players and the experience.

Truth be told, I don't even like doing them. I think it toes the line between being objective and affects relationships -- albeit in a minor way -- that I've developed with players and coaches because of the work we put in.

But people LOVE the picks. Triple Take gets eaten up every week. It's great for starting conversation about that week's slate of games, and in that sense, it provides value and I'm happy to do it.

I'm not sure it's even appreciated for what it is, which we often try to explain: During the season it's taking a 120-game Saturday and giving fans something to look at besides their team's game. During the playoffs, it's setting the expectations so that we know a surprise when we see one. Our opinions aren't infallible and they aren't always right, but we have a pretty solid track record, and we do take some delight in that.

Mostly I think people just like seeing their team's name in lights. I don't really think most fans care about respect as it is earned, they just want to see us fawn over their team. Which is fine. I am biased as all hell when I read about my NFL team, and I get mad when national people who don't follow it as closely as I do don't know the intracacies that I know because I'm a die-hard. But I'm also in the unique position of understanding what it's like trying to follow 32 teams and be an expert on them all. There's no way they can match the guy who reads every tidbit about his one team. But you can still get a pretty good sense from just putting in some work to know all 32 teams.

Now take an NFL beat guy's job and multiply that by 7.5. Then take away all the media access and endless camera angles and archived video, and you have my job. Try to get to know 239 teams to a degree where you can speak publically about them without making a fool of yourself.

So when you say I formed my opinion by only watching a few games on SportsTimeOhio, well no duh. I'm not the team broadcaster who gets to watch all 13 games plus get little tidbits from fellow alums in town. I have a loosely organized network of very kind folks who slide me info, help me out when I ask and correct me when I'm wrong, but the beat reporter and local radio guy still has value because he knows the team more intimately than I ever will.

Name me the other national D-III columnists or analysts who subscribe to the D-III package so they can watch the games on STO. Take all the time you need ... I'll wait.

I'm comfortable with my analysis because I put the work in. As long as I'm not full-time at this, it'll never be as much as I want. Truthfully, I only had time to watch most of the Heidelberg game. I watched the first quarter plus of Baldwin-Wallace because that wasn't an STO, it was during a Saturday when a gajillion other games were going on. I watched parts of the Capital and Johns Hopkins games. I have Widener DVRing in a couple hours here. I also watched dozens of other games from dozens of other teams this year.

You can't do my job and be scared to be wrong. If you skim over everything else I wrote, just understand that. I'm paid -- I actually do get paid -- to have opinions and analyze. A lot of the things I say end up being proven wrong, and some aren't even all that accurate at the time I say them. It happens, but I'm comfortable with it as long as what I am saying is based on something legitimate. Some work that I've done to look at what other people don't have time to look at because they have jobs and lives and they come to D3football.com for the service of me doing it for them. The only time I get frustrated with myself is when I say something empty, but I'm proud to say I really limit that, and of course don't do it ever on purpose. Pat and I during the preseason Kickoff pow-wows are often challenging each other to say "Grove City ranked No. 140? Why?" And then we make each other justify it.

So we may be wrong, but we're not going to say things just to say them. And to that end, I haven't seen anyone outwork us at what we do.

Does a coach who watches game video 450 times a year have a better understanding of a particular player/team/conference's weaknesses than we do? Sure. But we've got a baseline understanding of the other 26 conferences and 229 teams he pays almost no attention to.

It's a give and take.

Zac Bruney and Kevin Burke are similar in body type. They are also both mobile quarterbacks, were highly successful in high school in Ohio and to me have a gamer edge to their play. At the time I was asked to make the first comparison, it was on the spot and I didn't have a good answer. I didn't think Smeck or Jorris or Adamson or Piloto fit at all. Micheli was what came out, but there is probably no player I have covered that I hold in higher regard, so I didn't think Burke was ready for that praise yet. When it came back up, I thought Bruney was closer. Not perfect, but better than Micheli.

I was still a player for Borchert and Ballard. I watched each of them play -- 93 or 96 on TV because I was interested in Rowan, and 97 because I worked the Stagg Bowl as a player volunteer. I don't really know those guys games that well, if you say that's the comparison, you know better than me.

In a few weeks here ESPN is going to send Clay Matvick or somebody to cover the game. Whoever they send will be a million times more polished than me in the broadcast booth. But ask him or her who Rob Adamson is.

I might not know everything about Mount Union, but you could do a lot worse. And one of the reasons I don't know everything is because my job is to know a little bit about 239 teams, not to know one inside out.

I have an agenda. It's to share all the things I've picked up along the way with our listeners and readers.

Truthfully, with the exception of some ODAC biases that predate my work here, I don't root for D-III teams. The way I see it, I'm going to the Stagg Bowl either way. All I want to see is a great game that represents all that's great about D-III well.

I have made a lot of friends along the way, but that's not my job. My job is not to tell you the things you want to hear about your team. Of course I have critical things to say. That IS my job. Sometimes I say them in really dumb ways, like writing that JCU column from that angle in 2002 or saying that Burke was battling for the QB job when he's really held it all year this year and I was confusing last season's QB struggles for UMU with this season's. I make mistakes, and when I can, I correct myself.

But I'm never going to apologize for not being a homer for your team, whether your team happens to be Mount Union or anyone else. I go to bat for Mount Union a jillion times a year too when people say UMU needs to move to D2, or suggest Larry isn't winning with D-III athletes or within the D-III rules. Sometimes people can't accept that he does it better. And takes advantage of the inherent advantages of being a perennial playoff team.

Part of me being in the middle is saying things that are uncomfortable, but are ultimately rooted in either truth, or something that looked true at the time.

One of my weaknesses is that I see a lot of the good in teams, and because I see, say, Widener play really well the week before, you all are able to see just a MAC champion and can safely say Mount Union will soundly beat them. But I see a team that played outstanding defense against Salisbury's triple option and a WR that had a 200-yard game. It's hard for me to make sense of how that team that looks so good in front of my eyes is going to get beat by 50 points the following week.

I did base the pick on some sound thinking. Picking a score similar to Heidelberg's was not really outlandish; I'd do it again, and I bet if Widener and Heidelberg played, it would be a good game. The game today obviously got away from the Pride, and special teams were a huge factor, which I did not anticipate. I do think Widener had some players who could make plays against Mount Union. I did think UMU was ultimately better. Picked a 35-point output and two-TD spread. Perhaps having watched the parts of games this season where UMU struggled has put me more in tune with their few struggles and less with their overall dominance.

Sometimes though, I think I just don't have perfect predictive powers. The games are played, and we learn things that we didn't know before. Certainly I was wrong with my Widener pick, and I learned a lot from today's game.

I don't mind taking the heat here, even with me picking the correct team to win. Ultimately the pick was way off. My UMHB-Wesley and Oshkosh-Linfield picks were much closer to correct. In a few weeks, none of us will remember any of it, only what happened. And that's what's important. The picks, the analysis are ways to help us make sense of game day, but ultimately everything revolves around what happens on Saturdays. Anything said in advance is at best an educated guess. What happens on the field are the absolutes.

Everyone's a genius with the benefit of hindsight. Whaddya gonna do? Life goes on, more games are played the next week, and more people are going to claim they get motivated by proving me wrong. If that's what you need, more power to you. I don't mind, I'm just here to enjoy the games, educate the masses with mostly good and occasionally not-so-good info, and to write about it in really long form.

TL; DR but ah well, too late.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on December 02, 2012, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.
I'm so glad you didn't mention Danny white
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.
I can give you four more who are worthy of mention.

Eddie LeBaron was the first Dallas QB as was a Pro Bowler for the Washington Redskins in the 1950's. He is in the Washington Redskins Ring of Honor.

Craig Morton was in the Quarterback Shuffle during the Super Bowl VI-winning 1971 season with Staubach. Morton later led the Denver Broncos to the Super Bowl against the Cowboys in Super bowl XII after the 1977 season.  Morton is on the Broncos Ring Of Honor.

Dan Reeves was also pressed into duty a backup QB when the other QB's were injured.  He has most Super Bowl appearances of anyone (9).

Yes, the rest are just cannon-fodder!  Thanks for the opportunity to reminesce of when the Cowboys were a real team, kinda like the Mount Union of the NFL.

As for Danny White, in the immortal words of Tom Landry, "No Danny! NO!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Dallas_Cowboys_season)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 03, 2012, 11:30:15 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.
I can give you four more who are worthy of mention.

Eddie LeBaron was the first Dallas QB as was a Pro Bowler for the Washington Redskins in the 1950's. He is in the Washington Redskins Ring of Honor.

Craig Morton was in the Quarterback Shuffle during the Super Bowl VI-winning 1971 season with Staubach. Morton later led the Denver Broncos to the Super Bowl against the Cowboys in Super bowl XII after the 1977 season.  Morton is on the Broncos Ring Of Honor.

Dan Reeves was also pressed into duty a backup QB when the other QB's were injured.  He has most Super Bowl appearances of anyone (9).

Yes, the rest are just cannon-fodder!  Thanks for the opportunity to reminesce of when the Cowboys were a real team, kinda like the Mount Union of the NFL.

As for Danny White, in the immortal words of Tom Landry, "No Danny! NO!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Dallas_Cowboys_season)

I never realized the Eddie LeBaron played for the Cowboys.  I forgot about Craig Morton because he played for Giants, Broncos and Cowboys.  He definitely is worth mentioning.  I never realized the Dan Reeves played qb for the Cowboys.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 03, 2012, 11:23:15 PM
Aikman was drafted by Jimmy Johnson. Jerry Jones has not had a decent QB (a decent Dallas Cowboy QB) since Aikman.

If the 49'ers don't make "the Catch" in the 1981 NFC championship game, then Danny White probably has a different career!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: @d3jason on December 05, 2012, 02:42:58 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 03, 2012, 11:30:15 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.
I can give you four more who are worthy of mention.

Eddie LeBaron was the first Dallas QB as was a Pro Bowler for the Washington Redskins in the 1950's. He is in the Washington Redskins Ring of Honor.

Craig Morton was in the Quarterback Shuffle during the Super Bowl VI-winning 1971 season with Staubach. Morton later led the Denver Broncos to the Super Bowl against the Cowboys in Super bowl XII after the 1977 season.  Morton is on the Broncos Ring Of Honor.

Dan Reeves was also pressed into duty a backup QB when the other QB's were injured.  He has most Super Bowl appearances of anyone (9).

Yes, the rest are just cannon-fodder!  Thanks for the opportunity to reminesce of when the Cowboys were a real team, kinda like the Mount Union of the NFL.

As for Danny White, in the immortal words of Tom Landry, "No Danny! NO!" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Dallas_Cowboys_season)

I never realized the Eddie LeBaron played for the Cowboys.  I forgot about Craig Morton because he played for Giants, Broncos and Cowboys.  He definitely is worth mentioning.  I never realized the Dan Reeves played qb for the Cowboys.
Reeves was a halfback but did throw the go ahead TD in the ICE Bowl on a option pass before Starr led the original "drive."
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Knightstalker on December 05, 2012, 07:37:15 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 03, 2012, 11:23:15 PM
Aikman was drafted by Jimmy Johnson. Jerry Jones has not had a decent QB (a decent Dallas Cowboy QB) since Aikman.

If the 49'ers don't make "the Catch" in the 1981 NFC championship game, then Danny White probably has a different career!

Danny White was a pretty good qb for a punter.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Toby Taff on December 06, 2012, 12:59:02 AM
So if you are looking for end of the year articles still, how about odd happenings this season: LiDarraling.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board - subjects/angles on the Stagg Bowl
Post by: art76 on December 09, 2012, 09:58:49 AM
Keith,

We have two Sophomore QBs leading their teams - kind of an anomaly I would think.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board - subjects/angles on the Stagg Bowl
Post by: hazzben on December 10, 2012, 05:24:34 PM
Quote from: art76 on December 09, 2012, 09:58:49 AM
Keith,

We have two Sophomore QBs leading their teams - kind of an anomaly I would think.

I was just about to post this exact thing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2012, 01:07:28 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.

No love for Danny White?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2012, 01:07:58 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on December 02, 2012, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 02, 2012, 09:43:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2012, 09:00:33 AM
Great post, K-Mack.+1! The way you rattled off the UMU QB's was impressive.

I can't rattle off the Dallas Cowboy QB's that easily, but then there have been a lot of them that I want to forget!  :P

That is because there are only three worth mentioning and only two of them won Super Bowls.  The three are Dandy Don, Roger Staubach and Troy Aikmen.  All the rest are just cannon fodder.
I'm so glad you didn't mention Danny white

Oh. Oops.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2012, 01:08:48 PM
Quote from: Toby Taff on December 06, 2012, 12:59:02 AM
So if you are looking for end of the year articles still, how about odd happenings this season: LiDarraling.

This definitely made my list, but thanks for keeping it top of mind.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board - subjects/angles on the Stagg Bowl
Post by: K-Mack on December 14, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Quote from: hazzben on December 10, 2012, 05:24:34 PM
Quote from: art76 on December 09, 2012, 09:58:49 AM
Keith,

We have two Sophomore QBs leading their teams - kind of an anomaly I would think.

I was just about to post this exact thing.

Yeah, we sort of wrote that feature last week, contrasting Bailey and Wara with Burke and O'Connell, so now we can't write it again this week. but we can acknowledge it in the Stagg Bowl broadcast!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 10, 2013, 10:01:01 PM
Some offseason writing, in case you missed any of it. Going to do more soon:

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2013/01/29/offseason-huddle-up-whats-happened-in-january

http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2013/01/10/around-the-nation-year-in-review-whatd-we-miss

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2012/a-look-back-at-a-heck-of-2012-season
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on February 14, 2013, 02:40:45 PM
Couple of good D3 shout outs (Midd and Depauw) in Simmons' PED mail bag:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8943765/rants-raves

#whyd3
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on February 17, 2013, 08:22:41 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on February 14, 2013, 02:40:45 PM
Couple of good D3 shout outs (Midd and Depauw) in Simmons' PED mail bag:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8943765/rants-raves

#whyd3

Well the Vermont one doesn't sound so "good," but that professor definitely frequents D3hoops.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 26, 2013, 08:17:25 PM
Is it true?  Keith, are you leaving D3football.com Around the Nation to become the Redskins/NFL editor at the Washington Post?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on April 02, 2013, 08:52:10 AM
Keith definitely is becoming the Redskins editor at the Post (actually, has become as of Apr 1):

Quote from: KMac Facebook
I'm very thrilled to be taking over as the Washington Post's Redskins/NFL Editor in the beginning of April. So much to do ...

As for ATN:
Quote from: comments to above post
Kevin Niehus That's awesome Kmack -- what's this mean for your gig at D3??

Keith McMillan Glad you asked. It definitely means Around the Nation as we knew it is no more, but Patrick L. Coleman are re-imagining it and I'm sure we'll have some details to share before the season starts.

Patrick L. Coleman Yep -- we can do ATN differently. It doesn't have to be a long-form column. I actually think this is a good impetus for re-evaluating what makes a good internet column in this day and age and I hope what we end up with is something the readers enjoy.

Saw your comment in the thread, Ralph, but figured others might have seen your post here and wanted more info.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wildcat11 on April 02, 2013, 03:16:30 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on April 02, 2013, 08:52:10 AM
Keith definitely is becoming the Redskins editor at the Post (actually, has become as of Apr 1):

Quote from: KMac Facebook
I'm very thrilled to be taking over as the Washington Post's Redskins/NFL Editor in the beginning of April. So much to do ...

As for ATN:
Quote from: comments to above post
Kevin Niehus That's awesome Kmack -- what's this mean for your gig at D3??

Keith McMillan Glad you asked. It definitely means Around the Nation as we knew it is no more, but Patrick L. Coleman are re-imagining it and I'm sure we'll have some details to share before the season starts.

Patrick L. Coleman Yep -- we can do ATN differently. It doesn't have to be a long-form column. I actually think this is a good impetus for re-evaluating what makes a good internet column in this day and age and I hope what we end up with is something the readers enjoy.

Saw your comment in the thread, Ralph, but figured others might have seen your post here and wanted more info.

Looking forward to it...just as long as D3 avoids the bleacher report/buzzfeed sports model.  "14 Incredible D3 players who last names start with the letter Z"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 04:24:12 PM
Well I'm in sort of a nine-day transition from my old job to my new; I don't start Redskins during the day until the 9th. But there's a lot to do, and it means I scrapped some plans I had to write more during the offseason, although I thinkk we'll still be able to do post new offseason articles, especially leading up to the draft.

We'll definitely have to do ATN differently, but there's no way we could just let it die on the vine. In the end, we might be able to cut down on that wait between the games and Thursday for those best insights. And we'll still have an increasingly good crop of ATR guys, the podcast and such, so it might not be that much of a net loss for the fans. Plus the NFL is resting on Saturdays for its big Sunday so I'll be able to pay closer attention to games. But then I'll be NFL-focused all Sunday and Monday and much of the week.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 03, 2013, 05:24:29 PM
I have given serious consideration on the move of K-Mack from D3football.com to the Washington Post Redskins beat.

It is kinda like Andy Enfield going from Florida Gulf Coast University to USC.

(I still think that you should have taken the Cowboys beat job!  Wait!  No, I would not inflict Jerry Jones on a nice guy like you.  The Cowboys need a new owner who will fire the General Manager!)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 06:45:12 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 03, 2013, 05:24:29 PM
I have given serious consideration on the move of K-Mack from D3football.com to the Washington Post Redskins beat.

It is kinda like Andy Enfield going from Florida Gulf Coast University to USC.

(I still think that you should have taken the Cowboys beat job!  Wait!  No, I would not inflict Jerry Jones on a nice guy like you.  The Cowboys need a new owner who will fire the General Manager!)

I think you know how I feel about Jerrah.

And I'd prefer to be compared to Brian Kelly, who at least went D-II to Cincy to Notre Dame. Or how about Shaka Smart? That's a good one.

Also I'll be orchestrating not beat-reporting, so you won't have to worry about seeing my byline. It's really just a can-I-handle-it-all time thing, and not wanting to bite off more than can be chewed.

I'll be around, I'm not vanishing completely. And we have groomed other talented writers for you to love.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 06:45:28 PM
I appreciate all the support though. :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on April 03, 2013, 06:47:01 PM
K-Mack:   Congrats and good luck.   Hope you don't completely forget about us little people......... ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on April 27, 2013, 12:24:23 AM
I'm woefully behind chiming in on this, but I wanted to add my congrats to you Keith! Sounds like a great gig at the WP.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on May 07, 2013, 10:37:01 AM
Woefully behind as well, but congrats Keith! Well deserved.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on May 31, 2013, 01:28:54 PM
Me too.  Congrats, K-Mack.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on June 18, 2013, 02:00:14 PM
what did you guys think of the sporting news college fb 2013 d3 preseason rankings?  lindy's had one as well but the SN guy at least seemed to have some knowledge of D3FB.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: D3MAFAN on June 18, 2013, 02:10:46 PM
Quote from: ITH radio on June 18, 2013, 02:00:14 PM
what did you guys think of the sporting news college fb 2013 d3 preseason rankings?  lindy's had one as well but the SN guy at least seemed to have some knowledge of D3FB.

When D3Football post their's, then I'll be happy. As Bart Scot will say "Can't Wait!"
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on June 18, 2013, 05:05:28 PM
I found it pretty interesting that Johns Hopkins posted complete copies of both Lindy's and Sporting News' D3 previews ... copyright, what's that?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on June 18, 2013, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on June 18, 2013, 05:05:28 PM
I found it pretty interesting that Johns Hopkins posted complete copies of both Lindy's and Sporting News' D3 previews ... copyright, what's that?
Why do Lindy's and Sporting News want to enforce their copyrights against JHU?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on June 19, 2013, 03:01:05 AM
Oh, I don't know, perhaps because anyone reading it for free courtesy of JHU probably now won't buy the special issues in question?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on June 19, 2013, 08:07:35 AM
As opposed to those who read for free courtesy the newsstand?  Do you think they expect to sell many copies for just the d3 content?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 08, 2013, 08:47:12 PM
ATN on a Sunday?  :)

Keith, MTU hasn't lost a Home opener since 1987, not 1997.  ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2013, 12:43:52 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 08, 2013, 08:47:12 PM
ATN on a Sunday?  :)

Keith, MTU hasn't lost a Home opener since 1987, not 1997.  ;)

The sentence says season opener, not home opener, though.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 09, 2013, 11:35:16 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 09, 2013, 12:43:52 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 08, 2013, 08:47:12 PM
ATN on a Sunday?  :)

Keith, MTU hasn't lost a Home opener since 1987, not 1997.  ;)

The sentence says season opener, not home opener, though.

Haven't lost a "Season Opener" since 1987 also.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 10, 2013, 11:22:23 PM
It's just a typo everybody. The info was correct when I read it in Lenny's notes. Must have been lost somewhere between there and my fingers.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: AUPepBand on September 10, 2013, 11:36:29 PM
Pep just doesn't hit all the right threads on these boards. Just now learned the K-Mack is off to "greener pastures" of sorts. (If you're working at the Washington Post anywhere near the Obituaries Department, please give Pep's regards to Obit Editor Adam Bernstein, whom Pep met at an International Obituary Writers Conference in Las Vegas, NM back in 2004, when he missed Mayberry's Traffic Light Festival).

Pep has long appreciated Keith McMillan's contributions to this website in general, and, in particular, his personal visit to Merrill Field a few years back. Would love to see him at Merrill Field again someday, since there's a new home grandstand, new field turf, a "Li'l Alf" mascot roaming around, and King Alfred mounted on a fine white steed, ready to ride a victory jaunt with each AU touchdown...all new developments since his visit.

Pep wishes K-Mack all the best!

+K
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bombers798891 on September 12, 2013, 12:02:50 PM
Really liked your ATN discussion of the polling process. I do agree with Frank that there's not "zero" information to go on in a Week 0 poll, but I'm okay with moving teams significantly because current season data trumps returning starter, 2012 performance. I do think there needs to be more than just a loss/win, but a look at an underlying performance.

I brought up Salisbury on the E8 boards. They took a huge tumble out of the polls, but I was okay with it, not so much because of them losing but because a triple option team losing major components and then struggling to run the ball effectively would be a major red flag. There are underlying performances beyond the results that I think tell us important things.

I was curious though: How would you handle an injury? Let's say a pass-heavy team loses its starting AA QB to an injury. Does their ranking reflect the injury? Or do they retain the benefit of the doubt?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 12, 2013, 12:37:37 PM
One of the things I think to keep in mind with an early poll is it can either validate or contradict your preseason notions. Whitewater is the great example this week -- there was some benefit of the doubt that the program that was in seven consecutive Stagg Bowls could get back to that level. Even though they came back and won, they scored SEVEN points in three quarters, and offense was the big issue last year in their struggles. If you thought UWW would bounce back, that game had to give you pause and any push you might have given them in the preseason had to be reconsidered.

Quote from: Bombers798891 on September 12, 2013, 12:02:50 PM
How would you handle an injury? Let's say a pass-heavy team loses its starting AA QB to an injury. Does their ranking reflect the injury? Or do they retain the benefit of the doubt?

For me, I might bump them down a few spots while the player is out if the team's on-field performance warrants it but I would remember how I thought about them and be willing to push the team back up faster if the first-teamer comes back and the team performs like it should.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: smedindy on September 13, 2013, 05:41:22 PM
"Stability" is bunk because it bakes in pre-conceived notions that may be ill-advised or faulty. I see this happen in *other* polls where the confirmation bias is strong. We should avoid that, and I think this poll does for the most part.

You can do all the research and the forecasting you want, but sometimes teams just face plant, and others surprise. Get the face planters out of the way.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on September 16, 2013, 02:41:15 PM
Quote from: smedindy on September 13, 2013, 05:41:22 PM
"Stability" is bunk because it bakes in pre-conceived notions that may be ill-advised or faulty. I see this happen in *other* polls where the confirmation bias is strong. We should avoid that, and I think this poll does for the most part.

You can do all the research and the forecasting you want, but sometimes teams just face plant, and others surprise. Get the face planters out of the way.

Yeah I don't think we should be beholden to any articificial confinements like "don't drop a team x number of spots in one week" or whatever. I think you rank the 25 best teams knowing what you know, and that can very well change the following week too.

One of the reasons it's not a perfect process (search the word "artscience" used on this board) is because it's hard to determine whether you're ranking the past or ranking what you project the future to be based on what has happened in the past.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: dahlby on October 05, 2013, 02:17:37 AM
The re-ranking article, within the NWC section, incorrectly referred to PSU
defeating Chapman.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on November 05, 2013, 08:36:41 AM
Not sure if this is a proper place to continue a podcast topic, but i'll give it a whirl. You guys touched on a topic on which I have an opinion that goes completely against the grain regarding a Conference tie-breaker to determine the Pool A NCAA bid. I will preface this by saying, I am an idealist when it comes to D3 football. Perhaps naively, I think the nature of D3 and its participants set it apart from the other divisions. We all know the types of things I mean: genuine student-athletes playing for the love of the game, sportsmanship, relationships among rival coaches that are not undercut by the continual threat of job loss, etc.   And best of all, all these positives (and there are many more), do not compromise the competitiveness in the Division in the least.

Two values that I hold dear drive my opinion behind the tie-breaker solution. I know these are not shared values, so I understand why nearly everyone disagrees with me.

The first value I will call, "The Sanctity of the Saturday". That simply means that we all have only so many College Football Saturdays in our life. They are very limited. And each one is special and meaningful for different reasons.  Having been born into a football coach's home, football saturdays were ingrained in heart and mind. They were simple, they were fun, they were fun, and at the end of the day, I was rooting for only one thing to happen. I wanted my team to win. If my team was 3-3 and we were hosting a 2-4 team, I was excited for us to win and stay ahead of them. A team doesn't have to be 10-0 for Saturdays to be special. One of the beautiful things about college football is that 100 guys ( or 75, pick the number) are all fighting together with ONE single goal. Win the game. Nothing else matters. If the team wins, the blunders of the game are simply stories the kids will have to tell years later.  In my opinion, anything that takes away from a football team having MORE than one goal detracts from football saturday.

The second value is sportsmanship. I think everyone knows what that is. In my opinion, any rule that would cause the value of sportsmanship to clash with a separate value is unacceptable.

For these reasons, the tie-breaker system that I would favor is:
1. head to head record between the teams
2. Determine the auto bid completely by chance.

I feel like the other tie-breakers I've seen are evaluations of data that were not on the radar of the 100 men who banded together to take the field on that Saturday. Point differential? Why impose a rule that would cause a team to get as many points as they can against a defeated foe when it could be a day that hard working back-ups could actually see the field?  Why put a coach into a position of having to choose between what is best for his players and his relationship with the other coach? I'm not saying it's a hard decision, I'm saying a coach should not be in that position in the first place. Number of Quarters led? Paying attention to that messes with the flow of a game.  Other coaches voting? That takes it off the field anyway, why give politics a chance to rear it's ugly head.

I have never heard an argument that has swayed me there is a better way to determine the Pool A bid for a conference that is superior to chance (if the head to head didn't sort it out).  I know players and coaches want to "earn it on the field".  But they didn't. Obviously, neither team went undefeated, unless of course they are part of the MWC and even I can't write a post long enough to address the stupidity of all that.  To me, to slice and dice "how games were won" after the fact takes away from "The Sanctity of Football Saturday".  To put coaches in a position of needing to "win by as many points as possible" goes against the value of sportsmanship.

"Rose Bowl Rule"? Don't like it. There are athletes on each team that were not the year before. Each team is different and should have equal access.

How about this for a tie-breaker:
1. Head to head records
2. A tournament pitting team captains in a game of paper, scissors, rock in a nearby Buffalo Wild Wings.  Both teams could fill the place and the event could be streamed online.  ;)

The only problem with this idea is that the players might actually WANT the tie.  :D
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 07, 2013, 04:58:38 PM
With some help I went through the ODAC tiebreaker a few days ago. For football it starts with head to head. If there is a multi-way tie where one team did not defeat ALL the others tied, it goes to what the ODAC calls a 5 point system. With 8 teams in the league, there are 180 points available (5*8 + 5*7 + 5*6 and so on). Each team adds up the points they received for beating their opponents. The team with the most points wins. So if 3 teams are tied at the top, they split the total points for spots 1-3 and each team earns a share of those points for winning. It's a bit convoluted, but basically what it amounts to is you are rewarded for beating the top teams.

Sadly the converse is true. All other things being equal, of the the three tied at the top, the team that lost to the worst team will garner the most points. So you are either given the A bid because you beat the best of the conference, or you are given the A bid because you took the worst loss. You can choose how to look at it. But I thought it was an interesting alternative.

If the points are still tied between 2 or more of the teams, then it goes to point differential ONLY between the remaining contenders. If there are only 2 teams left, that actually can't be tied since we don't have ties in football anymore, however if those 3 or more are still tied then it goes to a Rose Bowl rule.

Pretty comprehensive, but the 5 point rule was kind of interesting.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 13, 2013, 01:30:57 AM
If anybody's awake, I soft-published an ATN regional ranking primer with full examinations of Pools B and C and a Q&A sesh at the end.

I proofread it, but I won't add it to the front rotation until the morning. If you examine the numbers and see something wrong, or that I missed, please let me know.

http://www.d3football.com/x/twl9c
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 13, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
Don't WashU and Millsaps have a common opponent in Centre?

In the week's "Snap Judgements" in the Tom Arth discussion, shouldn't " Arth is not the first-year head coach" be " Arth is now the first-year head coach"?

BTW you were right Arth was the QB in 2002, the last big MtU-JCU game(s).

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 13, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 13, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
Don't WashU and Millsaps have a common opponent in Centre?

In the week's "Snap Judgements" in the Tom Arth discussion, shouldn't " Arth is not the first-year head coach" be " Arth is now the first-year head coach"?

BTW you were right Arth was the QB in 2002, the last big MtU-JCU game(s).

All those things are co-rrect.

Also I have been wanting to respond to bleedpurple because I agree and I don't, but I lost track of it. Long story short, anything but leaving it to chance. I like sanctity of Saturday in theory, and I agree tiebreakers are imperfect, but it has to be determined by something that was in your control, not randomness.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on November 14, 2013, 12:13:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 13, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
Don't WashU and Millsaps have a common opponent in Centre?

In the week's "Snap Judgements" in the Tom Arth discussion, shouldn't " Arth is not the first-year head coach" be " Arth is now the first-year head coach"?

BTW you were right Arth was the QB in 2002, the last big MtU-JCU game(s).

All those things are co-rrect.

Also I have been wanting to respond to bleedpurple because I agree and I don't, but I lost track of it. Long story short, anything but leaving it to chance. I like sanctity of Saturday in theory, and I agree tiebreakers are imperfect, but it has to be determined by something that was in your control, not randomness.

How about:

1. Fewest personal foul/unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.
2. Fewest total yards allowed.

Both of these are within the strategy of either team. Both are positive signs of championship level teams. Neither cause an incentive to "run it up". Both within the teams' control.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HScoach on November 14, 2013, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: bleedpurple on November 14, 2013, 12:13:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 13, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
Don't WashU and Millsaps have a common opponent in Centre?

In the week's "Snap Judgements" in the Tom Arth discussion, shouldn't " Arth is not the first-year head coach" be " Arth is now the first-year head coach"?

BTW you were right Arth was the QB in 2002, the last big MtU-JCU game(s).

All those things are co-rrect.

Also I have been wanting to respond to bleedpurple because I agree and I don't, but I lost track of it. Long story short, anything but leaving it to chance. I like sanctity of Saturday in theory, and I agree tiebreakers are imperfect, but it has to be determined by something that was in your control, not randomness.

How about:

1. Fewest personal foul/unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.
2. Fewest total yards allowed.

Both of these are within the strategy of either team. Both are positive signs of championship level teams. Neither cause an incentive to "run it up". Both within the teams' control.

I know where you're going with these 2 categories because UWW is near the top of both categories, and assume they were slightly done with tongue-in-cheek, but the "few yards allowed" does not promote sportsmanship.    If I have to worry about total yards, then it's in my best interest to NOT play the 2nd and 3rd team defenses at the end of games to make sure I don't give up a bunch of garage yards.

Luckily the team I follow hasn't had to worry about tie breakers in a long, long time.   And won't have to worry about it this year either as the OAC is a one game, winner take all battle in 2 days.   Can't wait for Saturday.   The playoffs start early this year in Alliance.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on November 14, 2013, 10:24:39 PM
Quote from: HScoach on November 14, 2013, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: bleedpurple on November 14, 2013, 12:13:42 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 13, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on November 13, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
Don't WashU and Millsaps have a common opponent in Centre?

In the week's "Snap Judgements" in the Tom Arth discussion, shouldn't " Arth is not the first-year head coach" be " Arth is now the first-year head coach"?

BTW you were right Arth was the QB in 2002, the last big MtU-JCU game(s).

All those things are co-rrect.

Also I have been wanting to respond to bleedpurple because I agree and I don't, but I lost track of it. Long story short, anything but leaving it to chance. I like sanctity of Saturday in theory, and I agree tiebreakers are imperfect, but it has to be determined by something that was in your control, not randomness.

How about:

1. Fewest personal foul/unsportsmanlike conduct penalties.
2. Fewest total yards allowed.

Both of these are within the strategy of either team. Both are positive signs of championship level teams. Neither cause an incentive to "run it up". Both within the teams' control.

I know where you're going with these 2 categories because UWW is near the top of both categories, and assume they were slightly done with tongue-in-cheek, but the "few yards allowed" does not promote sportsmanship.    If I have to worry about total yards, then it's in my best interest to NOT play the 2nd and 3rd team defenses at the end of games to make sure I don't give up a bunch of garage yards.

Luckily the team I follow hasn't had to worry about tie breakers in a long, long time.   And won't have to worry about it this year either as the OAC is a one game, winner take all battle in 2 days.   Can't wait for Saturday.   The playoffs start early this year in Alliance.

I'm sure it's been a great week and Saturday will be a great day for you. I guess the "price" of dominance is not having too many regular season that get adrenaline going.  You've not gotten to experience much of that in years.  At UW-W, we have had some foregone conclusion games, but not nearly as many or to the extent Mount has. I still haven't decided which I like better. It's like my buddy said (expressing his preference for a UW-W blowout to a close game), "I don't like good football games".  I actually love good games...as long as UW-W comes out on the right side of them.  ;)

Your right about the sportsmanship issue regarding yards allowed. It just feels like better sportsmanship to try to stop someone than to continually try to score to win a tiebreaker. But you are right, maybe it's not. I know none of these ideas would ever be actually adopted because most people aren't as adamant about my whole "sanctity of Saturday" ideal. Believe it or not, I was not (intentionally) being UW-W centric for once.  I honestly don't even know what the WIAC tiebreaker is other than head to head. I was just trying to add Keith's "something in your control" the the mix, keeping the sportsmanship and "sanctity of Saturday" ideas.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: RLW on November 18, 2013, 07:02:33 PM
I realize I am new to D3 football and I have struggled to understand the D3 playoff selection system. I came to grips with my team not making the playoffs with the win/loss record, RRO, and the SOS that the NCAA has to be consider for a team to get to the playoffs. However the NCAA published today the top 25 and seven colleges are in the playoffs behind two colleges that did not make the playoffs in the top 25. I am throughly confused, I guess the system for picking the top 25 is different from playoff selection. WOW
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 18, 2013, 10:38:23 PM
Quote from: RLW on November 18, 2013, 07:02:33 PM
I realize I am new to D3 football and I have struggled to understand the D3 playoff selection system. I came to grips with my team not making the playoffs with the win/loss record, RRO, and the SOS that the NCAA has to be consider for a team to get to the playoffs. However the NCAA published today the top 25 and seven colleges are in the playoffs behind two colleges that did not make the playoffs in the top 25. I am throughly confused, I guess the system for picking the top 25 is different from playoff selection. WOW

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but the NCAA does not publish a top 25 D3 football teams. They publish statistics about D3 which ranks teams in each category, but no subjective ranking of the "best" teams overall. The AFCA does a poll and D3football.com does a poll, but not the NCAA. So what you are reading is a) not what you think it is or b) not done by the NCAA. Making the playoffs has nothing to do with being in the AFCA or D3football.com polls. There are plenty of playoff primers around, but it is a fairly simple system.

Right now there are 24 conferences where the conference champion gets automatic qualification (Pool A). Those conferences have to have a minimum of 7 members and it doesn't matter if the champion is 4-6 for the season or 10-0, the conference champion is automatically qualified for the playoffs. So those champions may or may not be highly regarded by the AFCA or D3football.com poll, but none of that matters. This rule ensures access to the playoffs for the vast majority of D3 football teams at the beginning of every season with no subjectivity or value judgments.

The last 8 spots are divided 2 ways. Pool B is teams that are either independents (no conference affiliation) or non-qualifying conferences (not enough members like the UAA and SCAC or in a probationary period like the SAA and MASCAC). There is generally one Pool B spot for every 7 or 8 teams that are in this grouping. This year we had a big grouping, so there were 3 Pool B spots. Only teams that are either independent or in non-qualifying conferences can be selected for these bids. The teams are selected by a committee using a provided set of criteria as a guideline to the discussion.

Finally, however many spots are left, this year it was 5, are the spots available for Pool C teams. These teams are "second chance" teams. Meaning they either did not get their conference AQ or they were a Pool B qualifying team that was not selected via the available Pool B spots. No Pool B qualifying team has ever been selected as a Pool C, but the potential is there. These teams are the only TRUE selected teams from the entire D3 universe. They are chosen by a committee using a defined set of criteria as guidelines for the discussion.

Pool B and Pool C, a minority of the total playoff field, are the only selected teams for the tournament. Usually the bulk of Pool B and Pool C teams can be surmised before the selection show, leaving only a couple of final openings up for debate. Those last few selections are often hotly debated on this site, but the important thing to remember is that access through Pool C is a "last resort." You are lucky to be selected in this manner and it is far better to not leave your selection up to some committee. It is far simpler to guarantee yourself a playoff spot by winning your conference.

It may seem complicated but it is actually a very simple process, none of which involves any kind of poll that you might have originally been referring to.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ADL70 on November 18, 2013, 11:20:59 PM
NCAA.com does show both the AFCA and D3 polls, but only the Regional Rankings are by the NCAA.  But they don't post their final regional rankings.

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/football/d3
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 19, 2013, 12:01:57 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on November 14, 2013, 10:24:39 PM
I'm sure it's been a great week and Saturday will be a great day for you. I guess the "price" of dominance is not having too many regular season that get adrenaline going.  You've not gotten to experience much of that in years.  At UW-W, we have had some foregone conclusion games, but not nearly as many or to the extent Mount has. I still haven't decided which I like better. It's like my buddy said (expressing his preference for a UW-W blowout to a close game), "I don't like good football games".  I actually love good games...as long as UW-W comes out on the right side of them.  ;)

I love good games too. As much as I didn't like seeing those jokers from H-SC hold R-MC on the 1.5-yard two-point conversion on Saturday, it was a really great game in the series, and I left more pleased than distraught (helps that I ran into a lot of old alums and our campus/field is really looking sharp these days, but mostly it was that rush at the end of the game)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 19, 2013, 01:31:07 PM
I've posted this before, but don't have time to look it up.

I like the idea Pat proposes in terms of somehow tweaking the criteria to ensure, as the number of auto-bid conferences expand, that we maintain a way for quality runner up teams to make the field.

My issue with Regional Ranking being the threshold is that we've already seen a willingness by some regions to massage/manipulate (pick your verb) their rankings to ensure Pool C teams make the field. I'm just not sure we have a good way to make sure a regional committee wouldn't simply take things into their own hands to ensure a 7-3 (all losses in conference) or 6-4 squad didn't make it high enough.

I'd advocate something along these lines:

Pool A conference champions (or teams awarded the right for the at large via conference tie-breaker) receive their bid provided they meet one of the following criteria:

1. DIII Winning percentage of .700 or greater
2. Win over a RRO (this raises what to do with the once ranked always ranked issue)
3. 3 losses against RRO's
4. Ranked in the top 12 of the Regional Rankings

Maybe we could debate how high to set criteria 1 and 3. But taken together, achieving only 1 of these criteria shouldn't be undoable for any team that has a case to be in the field. There are also multiple layers to ensure teams aren't discouraged from scheduling tough teams OOC.

To tease out how it would look.

Say there's carnage in the NWC and PLU wins the league but has a d3 record of 6-3 (2 OOC losses). They also aren't ranked in a tough West Region field with multiple 1 & 2 loss teams from the WIAC, MIAC, IIAC and SCIAC. However, one of their wins is over a 1 loss Linfield team ranked 8 in the final ballot. They are in.

A team goes 6-4 (2 OOC, 2 Conf losses apiece) and wins the IIAC. No wins against RRO, 2 losses against RROs. Unranked in the final rankings. They are out, elligible for Pool C and the IIAC A bid becomes an additional Pool C bid.

We want to preserve equal access for good teams, but ensure totally undeserving teams don't limp in. At the same time, there are enough ways to make it in that an RC shouldn't have to manipulate things to get someone their A bid.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 19, 2013, 02:14:07 PM
I'd be open to something along those lines, although I don't want to overcomplicate it, since people (well, the people who don't post on these boards) have a tough enough time grasping it as it is.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 19, 2013, 02:24:06 PM
We should build a map tool that plots all 244 schools, then lets you shade out 243 of them and draw a 500-mile radius around it. Or lets you pick any two and determine the distance between.

@smedindy @wallywabash @d3football @RalphTurnerMcMurry ... anybody?

For a programmer, this can't be that hard.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 19, 2013, 11:04:18 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 19, 2013, 02:24:06 PM
We should build a map tool that plots all 244 schools, then lets you shade out 243 of them and draw a 500-mile radius around it. Or lets you pick any two and determine the distance between.

@smedindy @wallywabash @d3football @RalphTurnerMcMurry ... anybody?

For a programmer, this can't be that hard.

That would be a great Google map!

I have no trouble with the winner of a member conference getting into the playoffs. How much excitement have we had with Gallaudet winning their conference.  Those are their peer institutions.  We let the NESCAC play in their own sandbox.  Hey!  This is D-3. The idea is the competition, the life lessons, and the life long friendships. K-Mack did a great job of covering that this year in ATN. 

As for continued expansion of conferences, the SAA pulls 9 teams (from Pool B into a Pool A conference, when WashUStL and UChicago join. You have Berry and Hendrix adding football because they don't have to play Trinity!).  CWRU and CMU move from Pool B into a Pool A conference.  The MASCAC finally takes the bid that it had loaned D-3 for a decade while it was in the NEFC.  Let's also remember that the Pools are the reason the more schools are sponsoring teams. There is more excitement.  Besides, 16 of those Pool A teams will be done by Saturady about 3:15pm local time.

I cannot find the 27th Pool A conference, unless it is the NESCAC.  Maybe the Capital AC finally gets a Pool A bid as schools add football. You cannot carve up the football-playing schools in the East Region any other logical way to get another conference.  The SCAC might get a Football Pool A bid if several more schools resume or start programs, but I don't see that either.  Pool B in 2016 will be Wesley, Macalester, the SCAC-4 and maybe CNU.  Has anyone heard of another possible realignments?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 19, 2013, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 19, 2013, 11:04:18 PM
Besides, 16 of those Pool A teams will be done by Saturady about 3:15pm local time.
I sure hope that's not the case... I'd rather see Pool A Franklin defeat Pool B WashU ;)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 20, 2013, 09:14:22 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 19, 2013, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 19, 2013, 11:04:18 PM
Besides, 16 of those Pool A teams will be done by Saturady about 3:15pm local time.
I sure hope that's not the case... I'd rather see Pool A Franklin defeat Pool B WashU ;)
Yes, I had second thoughts about a bold prediction that the only losers on Saturday would be Pool A schools.  FWIW, the SAA is beginning to take shape as a Pool A conference and WashU and UChicago made a smart move to move to an acceptable football conference where they will be very competitive!   :)  (Likewise, CWRU and CMU.)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 20, 2013, 09:15:55 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 20, 2013, 09:14:22 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 19, 2013, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 19, 2013, 11:04:18 PM
Besides, 16 of those Pool A teams will be done by Saturady about 3:15pm local time.
I sure hope that's not the case... I'd rather see Pool A Franklin defeat Pool B WashU ;)
Yes, I had second thoughts about a bold prediction that the only losers on Saturday would be Pool A schools.  FWIW, the SAA is beginning to take shape as a Pool A conference and WashU and UChicago made a smart move to move to an acceptable football conference where they will be very competitive!

Anyone know if Chicago will join the South Region with this move? And will CWRU join the South after they and CMU go to the PAC?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 22, 2013, 11:02:32 AM
In other sports those changes haven't been made and the UAA exists in four or five separate regions. With the way the criteria have changed, it's more of a moot point than it used to be.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on November 22, 2013, 11:09:44 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 22, 2013, 11:02:32 AM
In other sports those changes haven't been made and the UAA exists in four or five separate regions. With the way the criteria have changed, it's more of a moot point than it used to be.

Very true. But they moved Salisbury to the East, so I was curious. I think it really only matters for next year's South Region Fan Poll and trying to get on the board if you are in the Pool C discussion.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 22, 2013, 11:12:42 AM
True. But Salisbury fits into an East footprint much better than Chicago fits into the South. Also, the Salisbury change was made before the most recent round of changes to the selection criteria.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: hazzben on November 24, 2013, 09:09:02 PM
Keith, you could add Mitch Hallstrom to your list of WR's Gone Wild: 8 rec, 127 yds 2 TD's
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 26, 2013, 03:46:54 PM
Quote from: hazzben on November 24, 2013, 09:09:02 PM
Keith, you could add Mitch Hallstrom to your list of WR's Gone Wild: 8 rec, 127 yds 2 TD's

My cutoffs were double-digit catches or 3 TDs.

For the RBs it was 28 carries. (I aimed for 30 but bent the rules for Framingham State and Maryville because they leaned on their guys sufficiently).

There were other players who had big days but I had to draw my arbitrary lines somewhere.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 03, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
QuoteEven taking their playoff worthiness out of the equation, even if we factor out their Top 25 rankings, this game – labeled The Gentlemen's Classic – pits together the only two Division III schools for which the all-male classroom experience has survived into the 21st century.

Um, I think there is a school in MN who fit's this description as well.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 03, 2014, 09:05:40 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 03, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
QuoteEven taking their playoff worthiness out of the equation, even if we factor out their Top 25 rankings, this game – labeled The Gentlemen's Classic – pits together the only two Division III schools for which the all-male classroom experience has survived into the 21st century.

Um, I think there is a school in MN who fit's this description as well.

Nope. St. John's students and St. Ben's students share classrooms.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 03, 2014, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 03, 2014, 09:05:40 AM
Quote from: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 03, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
QuoteEven taking their playoff worthiness out of the equation, even if we factor out their Top 25 rankings, this game – labeled The Gentlemen's Classic – pits together the only two Division III schools for which the all-male classroom experience has survived into the 21st century.

Um, I think there is a school in MN who fit's this description as well.

Nope. St. John's students and St. Ben's students share classrooms.

Ah, I see.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on September 03, 2014, 10:35:45 PM
If you haven't seen the front page, the handoff from Keith is now complete and my first Around the Nation column has been posted:

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2014/a-gentlemans-game

I will do my best to respond to any questions and comments, and I encourage any discussion related to ATN or the national scene in D-III to take place here. I look forward to hearing from folks and to bringing D-III to your digital doorsteps!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 11, 2014, 11:59:22 AM
Great column about Bryan Bing.

Isn't that story the real reason that we love D-3 football?

The leadership that Bryan is "living" will be his greatest achievement that came from playing football at Methodist.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on September 11, 2014, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 11, 2014, 11:59:22 AM
Great column about Bryan Bing.

Isn't that story the real reason that we love D-3 football?

The leadership that Bryan is "living" will be his greatest achievement that came from playing football at Methodist.

Bryan was awesome to talk to: smart, eager, determined. What he overcame is a true #whyd3 story.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: USee on September 28, 2014, 06:52:48 PM
Ryan,

Thanks for your "snap judgements" piece. I would only point out  the CCIW is one of 11 conferences that hasn't yet started conference play.  The "independents" like U Chicago and Wash U, etc also haven't started play against each other but that's not really a conference any more.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on September 29, 2014, 05:33:57 PM
Quote from: USee on September 28, 2014, 06:52:48 PM
Ryan,

Thanks for your "snap judgements" piece. I would only point out  the CCIW is one of 11 conferences that hasn't yet started conference play.  The "independents" like U Chicago and Wash U, etc also haven't started play against each other but that's not really a conference any more.

My apologies! Thanks for the catch, USee. I've updated it on the site.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 02, 2014, 07:14:28 PM
Quote from: USee on September 28, 2014, 06:52:48 PM
Ryan,

Thanks for your "snap judgements" piece. I would only point out  the CCIW is one of 11 conferences that hasn't yet started conference play.  The "independents" like U Chicago and Wash U, etc also haven't started play against each other but that's not really a conference any more.

At least UC and WashU will be part of a conference (the SAA [football only]) starting in 2015.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Hawks88 on October 23, 2014, 09:23:13 AM
Is there a team of the week for this past week? Last week's is still showing.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on October 23, 2014, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Hawks88 on October 23, 2014, 09:23:13 AM
Is there a team of the week for this past week? Last week's is still showing.

Just now seeing your note. I'm not sure what was up this morning when you posted, but the current TOW is up now:

http://www.d3football.com/awards/tow/2014/week7
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 26, 2014, 11:07:46 PM
Re:  Top 25.

There were only 78 points on the ballots cast for the teams that did not make the Top 25!  That is as few as I can remember!  It usually shrinks about this time of the year to a consensus beginning to form on the best teams. Even #24 Chapman at 90 points was almost to #22 on the Theoretical Perfect Ballot.

78 points is only 0.96% of all of the potential points (8,125) not going to a "Top 25" team!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 01, 2014, 05:31:40 AM
It's not Around the Nation but didn't know where else to put it.

In Triple Take at the end under 'They'll be on your radar'
QuoteRyan's take: Franklin. With a win this weekend, the Griz would be guaranteed to finish no worse than 7-1 in conference play, and they own the head-to-head victories over other potential one-loss teams. That means Franklin is poised to be the first team in 2014 to land a spot in the playoffs.
Would be nice... but Franklin has the week off. And with MSJ playing Bluffton, the winner will still be alive (albeit highly unlikely) for the conference crown.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ryan Tipps on November 03, 2014, 04:58:07 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 01, 2014, 05:31:40 AM
It's not Around the Nation but didn't know where else to put it.

In Triple Take at the end under 'They'll be on your radar'
QuoteRyan's take: Franklin. With a win this weekend, the Griz would be guaranteed to finish no worse than 7-1 in conference play, and they own the head-to-head victories over other potential one-loss teams. That means Franklin is poised to be the first team in 2014 to land a spot in the playoffs.
Would be nice... but Franklin has the week off. And with MSJ playing Bluffton, the winner will still be alive (albeit highly unlikely) for the conference crown.

Indeed, that was my mistake. I had put a note at the end of the blurb on Saturday when I noticed the error, but it was up far too long. Apologies.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
Not sure where this belonged, Round of 32 Triple Take tally. I had to review it for the podcast anyway, so I figured I might as well do it in a post instead of on a scrap of paper than no one can see.

UW-WHITEWATER QUADRANT
Keith's take:  UW-Whitewater 52, Macalester 7
Ryan's take: UW-Whitewater 45, Macalester 3
Pat's take: UW-Whitewater 45, Macalester 6
Consensus: The defending champions should dominate in the Scots' first playoff game ever.
RESULT: UW-W 55-2

Keith's take: Wabash 27, Franklin 17
Ryan's take: Wabash 41, Franklin 21
Pat's take: Wabash 53, Franklin 31
Consensus: How much scoring we expect varies, but the Little Giants should win this 4-5 matchup by double digits.
RESULT:  Wabash, 33-14

Keith's take: St. John's 31, St. Scholastica 10
Ryan's take: St. John's 38, St. Scholastica 7
Pat's take: St. John's 38, St. Scholastica 17
Consensus: The Johnnies see Kurt Ramler again, and send the Saints to another unceremonious first-round exit.
RESULT:  St. John's, 35-7.

Keith's take: Wartburg 35, St. Thomas 21
Ryan's take: Wartburg 34, St. Thomas 20
Pat's take: Wartburg 54, St. Thomas 35
Consensus: For all the talk about it being a tough draw, we've got the Knights by two or three touchdowns.
RESULT:  Wartburg, 37-31.

MARY HARDIN-BAYLOR QUADRANT
Keith's take: Widener 31, Muhlenberg 21
Ryan's take: Widener 49, Muhlenberg 21
Pat's take: Widener 42, Muhlenberg 35
Consensus: We're varied on how close the Mules keep it, but the Pride roars on.
RESULT:  Widener, 36-35.

Keith's take: Delaware Valley 42, Christopher Newport 35
Ryan's take: Delaware Valley 41, Christopher Newport 37
Pat's take: Delaware Valley 56, Christopher Newport 31
Consensus: The Aggies have one of the most generous defenses in the field, so they'll have to win a shootout.
RESULT:  CNU, 29-26.

Keith's take: Linfield 28, Chapman 21
Ryan's take: Linfield 28, Chapman 13
Pat's take: Linfield 27, Chapman 24
Consensus: Basically a repeat of the Week 1 matchup, with a bit more scoring.
RESULT:  Linfield, 55-24.

Keith's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 52, Texas Lutheran 24
Ryan's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 56, Texas Lutheran 17
Pat's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 48, Texas Lutheran 13
Consensus: Not quite 72-16, but not quite close.
RESULT:  Not finished yet.

WESLEY QUADRANT
Keith's take: Wesley 56, Hampden-Sydney 21
Ryan's take: Wesley 45, Hampden-Sydney 10
Pat's take: Wesley 42, Hampden-Sydney 20
Consensus: The Wolverines pick up where they left off the last time they played a D-III opponent.
RESULT:  Wesley 52-7.

Keith's take: MIT 24, Husson 21
Ryan's take: MIT 34, Husson 31
Pat's take: Husson 20, MIT 15
Consensus: This could go either way, and we all expect a grind.
RESULT:  MIT, 27-20 OT

Keith's take: Johns Hopkins 34, Rowan 17
Ryan's take: Johns Hopkins 27, Rowan 17
Pat's take: Johns Hopkins 24, Rowan 10
Consensus: The Profs just don't have enough offensive variety to keep up with the Blue Jays.
RESULT:  JHU, 24-16.

Keith's take: Hobart 24, Ithaca 22
Ryan's take: Ithaca 24, Hobart 20
Pat's take: Ithaca 24, Hobart 21
Consensus: We effectively picked the same score, in a toss-up. (We each make our choices without looking at the others) Hobart is a No. 2 seed, but would it be an upset if it lost to the Empire 8 champs?
RESULT:  Hobart, 22-15.

MOUNT UNION QUADRANT
Keith's take: Wheaton 31, Benedictine 6
Ryan's take: Wheaton 42, Benedictine 7
Pat's take: Wheaton 54, Benedictine 0
Consensus: At least the Eagles, who rallied from 1-4 to win the NACC, have a short ride home.
RESULT:  Wheaton, 43-14

Keith's take: John Carroll 35, Centre 13
Ryan's take: John Carroll 45, Centre 14
Pat's take: John Carroll 45, Centre 21
Consensus: Going toe-to-toe with Mount Union in Week 11 portends success more than going 10-0 in the SAA.
RESULT:  JCU, 63-28.

Keith's take: Washington and Jefferson 28, Wittenberg 24
Ryan's take: Wittenberg 38, Washington and Jefferson 21
Pat's take: Washington and Jefferson 34, Wittenberg 31
Consensus: This is one of the few places Pat and I see potential for a narrow upset; Ryan disagrees.
RESULT:  W&J, 41-25.

Keith's take: Mount Union 49, Adrian 13
Ryan's take: Mount Union 66, Adrian 7
Pat's take: Mount Union 54, Adrian 3
Consensus: The Bulldogs run into a bulwark.
RESULT:  MU, 63-3.

I believe that's 15-1 (Del Val) for me, and 14-2 for Pat (Husson, Del Val) and Ryan (Witt, Del Val).

Next week there are no gimmes though, except for Wesley-MIT. Many of the other games might have obvious picks, but I think it's going to be one of the all-time great Round 2s.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bartman on November 23, 2014, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
Not sure where this belonged, Round of 32 Triple Take tally. I had to review it for the podcast anyway, so I figured I might as well do it in a post instead of on a scrap of paper than no one can see.

UW-WHITEWATER QUADRANT
Keith's take:  UW-Whitewater 52, Macalester 7
Ryan's take: UW-Whitewater 45, Macalester 3
Pat's take: UW-Whitewater 45, Macalester 6
Consensus: The defending champions should dominate in the Scots' first playoff game ever.
RESULT: UW-W 55-2

Keith's take: Wabash 27, Franklin 17
Ryan's take: Wabash 41, Franklin 21
Pat's take: Wabash 53, Franklin 31
Consensus: How much scoring we expect varies, but the Little Giants should win this 4-5 matchup by double digits.
RESULT:  Wabash, 33-14

Keith's take: St. John's 31, St. Scholastica 10
Ryan's take: St. John's 38, St. Scholastica 7
Pat's take: St. John's 38, St. Scholastica 17
Consensus: The Johnnies see Kurt Ramler again, and send the Saints to another unceremonious first-round exit.
RESULT:  St. John's, 35-7.

Keith's take: Wartburg 35, St. Thomas 21
Ryan's take: Wartburg 34, St. Thomas 20
Pat's take: Wartburg 54, St. Thomas 35
Consensus: For all the talk about it being a tough draw, we've got the Knights by two or three touchdowns.
RESULT:  Wartburg, 37-31.

MARY HARDIN-BAYLOR QUADRANT
Keith's take: Widener 31, Muhlenberg 21
Ryan's take: Widener 49, Muhlenberg 21
Pat's take: Widener 42, Muhlenberg 35
Consensus: We're varied on how close the Mules keep it, but the Pride roars on.
RESULT:  Widener, 36-35.

Keith's take: Delaware Valley 42, Christopher Newport 35
Ryan's take: Delaware Valley 41, Christopher Newport 37
Pat's take: Delaware Valley 56, Christopher Newport 31
Consensus: The Aggies have one of the most generous defenses in the field, so they'll have to win a shootout.
RESULT:  CNU, 29-26.

Keith's take: Linfield 28, Chapman 21
Ryan's take: Linfield 28, Chapman 13
Pat's take: Linfield 27, Chapman 24
Consensus: Basically a repeat of the Week 1 matchup, with a bit more scoring.
RESULT:  Linfield, 55-24.

Keith's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 52, Texas Lutheran 24
Ryan's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 56, Texas Lutheran 17
Pat's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 48, Texas Lutheran 13
Consensus: Not quite 72-16, but not quite close.
RESULT:  Not finished yet.

WESLEY QUADRANT
Keith's take: Wesley 56, Hampden-Sydney 21
Ryan's take: Wesley 45, Hampden-Sydney 10
Pat's take: Wesley 42, Hampden-Sydney 20
Consensus: The Wolverines pick up where they left off the last time they played a D-III opponent.
RESULT:  Wesley 52-7.

Keith's take: MIT 24, Husson 21
Ryan's take: MIT 34, Husson 31
Pat's take: Husson 20, MIT 15
Consensus: This could go either way, and we all expect a grind.
RESULT:  MIT, 27-20 OT

Keith's take: Johns Hopkins 34, Rowan 17
Ryan's take: Johns Hopkins 27, Rowan 17
Pat's take: Johns Hopkins 24, Rowan 10
Consensus: The Profs just don't have enough offensive variety to keep up with the Blue Jays.
RESULT:  JHU, 24-16.

Keith's take: Hobart 24, Ithaca 22
Ryan's take: Ithaca 24, Hobart 20
Pat's take: Ithaca 24, Hobart 21
Consensus: We effectively picked the same score, in a toss-up. (We each make our choices without looking at the others) Hobart is a No. 2 seed, but would it be an upset if it lost to the Empire 8 champs?
RESULT:  Hobart, 22-15.

MOUNT UNION QUADRANT
Keith's take: Wheaton 31, Benedictine 6
Ryan's take: Wheaton 42, Benedictine 7
Pat's take: Wheaton 54, Benedictine 0
Consensus: At least the Eagles, who rallied from 1-4 to win the NACC, have a short ride home.
RESULT:  Wheaton, 43-14

Keith's take: John Carroll 35, Centre 13
Ryan's take: John Carroll 45, Centre 14
Pat's take: John Carroll 45, Centre 21
Consensus: Going toe-to-toe with Mount Union in Week 11 portends success more than going 10-0 in the SAA.
RESULT:  JCU, 63-28.

Keith's take: Washington and Jefferson 28, Wittenberg 24
Ryan's take: Wittenberg 38, Washington and Jefferson 21
Pat's take: Washington and Jefferson 34, Wittenberg 31
Consensus: This is one of the few places Pat and I see potential for a narrow upset; Ryan disagrees.
RESULT:  W&J, 41-25.

Keith's take: Mount Union 49, Adrian 13
Ryan's take: Mount Union 66, Adrian 7
Pat's take: Mount Union 54, Adrian 3
Consensus: The Bulldogs run into a bulwark.
RESULT:  MU, 63-3.

I believe that's 15-1 (Del Val) for me, and 14-2 for Pat (Husson, Del Val) and Ryan (Witt, Del Val).

Next week there are no gimmes though, except for Wesley-MIT. Many of the other games might have obvious picks, but I think it's going to be one of the all-time great Round 2s.
Pat and Ryan picked Ithaca over Hobart, so they are 13-3. Please pick Hobart as a potential "disappointment" against JHU, it motivated them in the second half yesterday!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tekken on November 23, 2014, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM

Keith's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 52, Texas Lutheran 24
Ryan's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 56, Texas Lutheran 17
Pat's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 48, Texas Lutheran 13
Consensus: Not quite 72-16, but not quite close.

Not quite right.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on November 23, 2014, 02:53:23 PM
Yeah I was impressed with what I saw in TLU. Not sure what happened in that 72 pt game BC you guys played Cru neck and neck today. Make those two fgs and the Dogs could have won the game on a final kick.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Tekken on November 23, 2014, 03:33:06 PM
Shows why it is important to throw MoV out the window once a game is firmly in hand (nor write off a team solely due to a blowout to one of the super elites).  There's just too many variables in play as to why those margins can climb so high,  especially when you have teams that are almost assuredly going to see each other again that season.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: art76 on November 25, 2014, 08:25:18 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
Not sure where this belonged

As I shared over in the Pool C Board at the beginning of the play-offs, here are the updated brackets using the D3 Top 25 rankings. As some of you may be reading this notion for the first time, let me explain by saying I simply put the corresponding number in front of all teams that received votes as well. If a team was unranked and received no votes, this year it got a ranking of 42, as the last team receiving a vote was pegged at 41.  So here's what we have left:

1 vs. 14 - Whitewater vs. Wabash
5 vs. 13 - Wartburg vs. St. John's

11 vs. 42 - Widener vs. Christopher Newport
2 vs. 10 - Mary Hardin-Baylor vs. Linfield

4 vs. 36 - Wesley vs. MIT
7 vs. 9 - Johns Hopkins vs. Hobart

6 vs. 8 - John Carroll vs. Wheaton
3 vs. 19 - Mount Union vs. Washington and Jefferson

I'd wager that the rankings would have changed after this weeks performance, but as that doesn't happen, it is what it is.

Going a step further and simply reassigning the rankings top to bottom from 1 to 16, we get these pairings left:

1 vs, 13
5 vs. 12

11 vs. 16
2 vs. 10

4 vs. 15
7 vs. 9

6 vs. 8
3 vs 14

As you can see, in general, the higher seeds get to play lower seeds and the middle of the field games look intriguing.

Final notes: The top 11 teams from the D3 Top 25 teams poll are still alive in the play-offs in the second week. (Only two teams outside the top 25 are left.) Obviously, because some of the top 11 play one another, the numbers will change next week.

The Cinderella story team has to be Christopher Newport, as they came in unranked and have a pretty decent chance of defeating Widener in this next round.

Feel free to ruminate.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 25, 2014, 11:00:43 PM
Quote from: timtlu on November 23, 2014, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM

Keith's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 52, Texas Lutheran 24
Ryan's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 56, Texas Lutheran 17
Pat's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 48, Texas Lutheran 13
Consensus: Not quite 72-16, but not quite close.

Not quite right.

That was definitely one of the surprise results, and I think we were very fair to TLU on the podcast. You have to imagine that the program is still on its way up, given the way it improved in its second shot against UMHB and given how they outgained the Cru and probably would have had an even better chance to win had they made some kicks.

TLU doesn't go out in the first round if the matchups are shaken up a bit, but we already know how it is down south. One positive is that the SAA gets an automatic bid next year, so there'll potentially be another player in the south, and if it's TLU and UMHB in again, one may get matched up against the SAA champ if it ...

Nevermind, even Rhodes is 589 miles from Belton, and 714 to TLU. Maybe if LC gets in. .... whole theory shot. (posts anyway)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 25, 2014, 11:10:05 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 25, 2014, 11:00:43 PM
Quote from: timtlu on November 23, 2014, 02:48:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM

Keith's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 52, Texas Lutheran 24
Ryan's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 56, Texas Lutheran 17
Pat's take: Mary Hardin-Baylor 48, Texas Lutheran 13
Consensus: Not quite 72-16, but not quite close.

Not quite right.

That was definitely one of the surprise results, and I think we were very fair to TLU on the podcast.

I'm not concerned about this prediction, or timtlu's reaction. Have you seen his posting history?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: K-Mack on November 28, 2014, 02:58:38 AM
This link by SBNation's Jon Morse:

a) Doesn't screw up any of the D-III facts, as far as how the playoffs work or who was eligible at the time it was written
b) Explains how D2 and NAIA select their fields, which are relevant when we are discussing better ways for D-III to do it.

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/11/12/7194821/dii-diii-naia-college-football-playoffs

The D-II earned access rule seems roughly to be no automatic bids for conference winners, but still recognizing that winning your conference means something, so if you're close to the playoff line (top six in regional rankings is the line; exceptions for CCs made out to 8) they'll vault you in.

I don't know that 8th in the region would be where the line is in D-III, and given that 7-3 CNU just won on the road in the first round, not even sure we need to fix the AQ system, but it gets discussed.

NAIA is top 16 in coaches poll, with exceptions for conf champs ranked in the top 20. I think the most interesting thing there is the use of the poll rather than a selection committee with criteria.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: art76 on December 01, 2014, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 23, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
Not sure where this belonged

Part 2: As I shared over in the Pool C Board at the beginning of the play-offs, (and earlier in this thread) here are the updated brackets using the D3 Top 25 rankings. As some of you may be reading this notion for the first (or second) time, let me explain by saying I simply put the corresponding number in front of all teams that received votes as well. If a team was unranked and received no votes, this year it got a ranking of 42, as the last team receiving a vote was pegged at 41.  So here's what we have left:

1 vs. 5 - Whitewater vs. Wartburg

11 vs. 10 - Widener vs. Linfield

4 vs. 9 - Wesley vs. Hobart

3 vs. 6 - Mount Union vs. John Carroll

I'd wager that the rankings would have changed after the past two weeks' performances, but as that doesn't happen, it is what it is.

Going a step further and simply reassigning the rankings top to bottom from 1 to 8, we get these pairings left:

1 vs. 4

8 vs. 7

3 vs. 6

2 vs. 5

As Pat mentioned in the Podcast, I agree with him in that I also think the only "mis-ranked" match-up is the Linfield vs. Widener game. But because there are no updates done during the playoffs so this is what we have.

If I were to rank the remaining 8 teams, here's how I would rank them:

1. Whitewater
2. Wesley
3. Mount Union
4. Wartburg
5. Linfield
6. John Carroll
7. Hobart
8. Widener

Which gives us these pairings:

1 vs. 4

5 vs. 8

2 vs. 7

3 vs. 6

I hope there are others who follow D3 Football that also find this all fun to ponder and not taking ourselves too seriously.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: gordonmann on January 29, 2016, 11:32:32 AM
No real place for this, but I wanted to share this (http://www.herosports.com/news/the-best-college-football-team-in-every-state-regardless-of-division#15).

It's a pretty cool looking map for the best college football teams in each state, regardless of division. A bunch of D3s make the list, some more surprising than others:

* Connecticut: Trinity
* Delaware: Wesley
* Illinois: North Central
* Iowa: Wartburg
* Maryland: Johns Hopkins
* New Jersey: Rowan
* New York: Ithaca
* Ohio: Mount Union (1st overall)
* Oregon: Linfield
* Rhode Island: Salve Regina
* Texas: Mary Hardin-Baylor
* Virginia: Christopher Newport
* Vermont: Middlebury
* Wisconsin: UW-Whitewater (2nd overall)
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: pg04 on January 29, 2016, 11:56:10 AM
A couple of the "winners" have been shared on various boards. It's not surprising given the Criteria that Mount and Whitewater are first and second overall. On other boards there are complaints that such measures are meaningless, which may be true, but I think it's interesting to analyze from different perspectives.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: jknezek on January 29, 2016, 12:08:10 PM
I wish they had called it something else. UMU is NOT, and will probably never be, the BEST college football team in Ohio. Ohio State would pulverize them, as would many other teams in the state. I will absolutely agree they are the MOST SUCCESSFUL among their peers. The same could be said for all the DIII teams on this list.

It's just sloppy writing. And as someone who long ago earned a degree in print journalism, that bothers me.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 29, 2016, 12:18:45 PM
Consider the source.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: tigerFanAlso2 on January 29, 2016, 03:32:38 PM
CNU best program in Virginia ???? HSC has better winning % past 5 years and past 10 years. Have played them head to head 3 times and have won two of those. Reality is Virginia does not have a very good college football team, period(on a national basis) so who really cares about the list anyway. Picking CNU as the states best is laughable and I'm not at all suggesting HSC should have been selected. I guess if I had to pick one it would be VaTech and no other school/program would be a close second. U of Richmond probably 2nd since they have won a National Championship. Who cares, I can't even believe I'm responding.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Bombers798891 on March 29, 2016, 02:43:53 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on January 29, 2016, 11:32:32 AM
No real place for this, but I wanted to share this (http://www.herosports.com/news/the-best-college-football-team-in-every-state-regardless-of-division#15).

It's a pretty cool looking map for the best college football teams in each state, regardless of division. A bunch of D3s make the list, some more surprising than others:

* Connecticut: Trinity
* Delaware: Wesley
* Illinois: North Central
* Iowa: Wartburg
* Maryland: Johns Hopkins
* New Jersey: Rowan
* New York: Ithaca
* Ohio: Mount Union (1st overall)
* Oregon: Linfield
* Rhode Island: Salve Regina
* Texas: Mary Hardin-Baylor
* Virginia: Christopher Newport
* Vermont: Middlebury
* Wisconsin: UW-Whitewater (2nd overall)

I got a kick out of it for what it was worth: A fun piece of conversation/bragging to then forget about. The methodology is inherently flawed, but it's ultimately just something fun
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on September 05, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quick question for the guys on top of the national stuff.  What is the ranking of the conference Mount Union plays in? I know the OAC is ranked fourth.  But  Mount doesn't play Mount. And as the Kickoff one liner under the OAC says: "Really would be lower if not for the force of nature known as Mount Union." 

The OAC was 2-6 this weekend against UW-O, Cortland State, Buffalo State, Bluffton, Waynesberg, Wittenberg, Defiance, and Denison.   Their losses were by an average of 16.67 points per game.  BW did beat Defiance 42-0 and Muskingum beat Waynesberg 17-16.

So just where would that group of teams (OAC minus Mount) rank in the conference rankings?
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HansenRatings on September 06, 2016, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on September 05, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quick question for the guys on top of the national stuff.  What is the ranking of the conference Mount Union plays in? I know the OAC is ranked fourth.  But  Mount doesn't play Mount. And as the Kickoff one liner under the OAC says: "Really would be lower if not for the force of nature known as Mount Union." 

The OAC was 2-6 this weekend against UW-O, Cortland State, Buffalo State, Bluffton, Waynesberg, Wittenberg, Defiance, and Denison.   Their losses were by an average of 16.67 points per game.  BW did beat Defiance 42-0 and Muskingum beat Waynesberg 17-16.

So just where would that group of teams (OAC minus Mount) rank in the conference rankings?

On my site, my model has the OAC as the 5th best conference (the CCIW ranks ahead of them, otherwise it's the same conferences ahead of them as in Kickoff). If I exclude Mount Union from their conference rating calculation, they would drop down to 8th, below the ASC, NWC, and IIAC (my model thinks the IIAC is consistently better than the folks running d3football think they are).

There's obviously more than one way to rank conferences, and my site is far from the only computer rating site out there for DIII, but it still gives you some idea. If you go back through the historical Top 25 rankings on d3football or by the AFCA, the OAC still consistently has their #2 or #3 teams ranked, while most other conferences struggle to get even their best team into the Top 25.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: crufootball on September 06, 2016, 03:32:59 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on September 06, 2016, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on September 05, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quick question for the guys on top of the national stuff.  What is the ranking of the conference Mount Union plays in? I know the OAC is ranked fourth.  But  Mount doesn't play Mount. And as the Kickoff one liner under the OAC says: "Really would be lower if not for the force of nature known as Mount Union." 

The OAC was 2-6 this weekend against UW-O, Cortland State, Buffalo State, Bluffton, Waynesberg, Wittenberg, Defiance, and Denison.   Their losses were by an average of 16.67 points per game.  BW did beat Defiance 42-0 and Muskingum beat Waynesberg 17-16.

So just where would that group of teams (OAC minus Mount) rank in the conference rankings?

On my site, my model has the OAC as the 5th best conference (the CCIW ranks ahead of them, otherwise it's the same conferences ahead of them as in Kickoff). If I exclude Mount Union from their conference rating calculation, they would drop down to 8th, below the ASC, NWC, and IIAC (my model thinks the IIAC is consistently better than the folks running d3football think they are).

There's obviously more than one way to rank conferences, and my site is far from the only computer rating site out there for DIII, but it still gives you some idea. If you go back through the historical Top 25 rankings on d3football or by the AFCA, the OAC still consistently has their #2 or #3 teams ranked, while most other conferences struggle to get even their best team into the Top 25.

Would it be too much to ask to see how all of your Top 10 conferences would fair if you took out their best team? Being from Texas its hard for me to truly get a feel for how good the ASC really is since even when we get 2 teams into the playoffs we usually play each other. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: HansenRatings on September 06, 2016, 05:32:26 PM
Quote from: crufootball on September 06, 2016, 03:32:59 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on September 06, 2016, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on September 05, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quick question for the guys on top of the national stuff.  What is the ranking of the conference Mount Union plays in? I know the OAC is ranked fourth.  But  Mount doesn't play Mount. And as the Kickoff one liner under the OAC says: "Really would be lower if not for the force of nature known as Mount Union." 

The OAC was 2-6 this weekend against UW-O, Cortland State, Buffalo State, Bluffton, Waynesberg, Wittenberg, Defiance, and Denison.   Their losses were by an average of 16.67 points per game.  BW did beat Defiance 42-0 and Muskingum beat Waynesberg 17-16.

So just where would that group of teams (OAC minus Mount) rank in the conference rankings?

On my site, my model has the OAC as the 5th best conference (the CCIW ranks ahead of them, otherwise it's the same conferences ahead of them as in Kickoff). If I exclude Mount Union from their conference rating calculation, they would drop down to 8th, below the ASC, NWC, and IIAC (my model thinks the IIAC is consistently better than the folks running d3football think they are).

There's obviously more than one way to rank conferences, and my site is far from the only computer rating site out there for DIII, but it still gives you some idea. If you go back through the historical Top 25 rankings on d3football or by the AFCA, the OAC still consistently has their #2 or #3 teams ranked, while most other conferences struggle to get even their best team into the Top 25.

Would it be too much to ask to see how all of your Top 10 conferences would fair if you took out their best team? Being from Texas its hard for me to truly get a feel for how good the ASC really is since even when we get 2 teams into the playoffs we usually play each other.

No problem at all. Conference rankings from this season with & without best team are below:


Conference   Kickoff Rank   W/ Best Team   W/O Best Team   
WIAC   1   1   1   
CCIW   7   2   2   
MIAC   2   3   3   
E8   5   4   4   
OAC   4   5   6   
NWC   3   6   8   
IIAC   11   7   5   
ASC   8   8   9   
CC   9   9   10   
SCAC   17   10   12   
PAC   12   11   7   

You can probably ignore the ranking for the SCAC--with only four members, it's average rating can be a little misleading.

The results are somewhat as I expected. Conferences with only one elite team go down, while conference without an elite team and a little more balance go up.

What frustrates you as a fan trying to compare the ASC to the nation is also frustrating to me in trying to build a good computer model--there's not enough national competition from the DIII island. In a lot of models, I think they can overfit the few non-conference results from the Texas and West Coast schools, leading to wildly variable ratings from year to year. It's my belief that a conference's average strength relative to the nation doesn't vary too much yearly, and I tried to build a model that accounts for that without "putting my finger on the dial" to make the model match my personal biases.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: bleedpurple on September 23, 2016, 07:54:28 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on September 06, 2016, 05:32:26 PM
Quote from: crufootball on September 06, 2016, 03:32:59 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on September 06, 2016, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on September 05, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quick question for the guys on top of the national stuff.  What is the ranking of the conference Mount Union plays in? I know the OAC is ranked fourth.  But  Mount doesn't play Mount. And as the Kickoff one liner under the OAC says: "Really would be lower if not for the force of nature known as Mount Union." 

The OAC was 2-6 this weekend against UW-O, Cortland State, Buffalo State, Bluffton, Waynesberg, Wittenberg, Defiance, and Denison.   Their losses were by an average of 16.67 points per game.  BW did beat Defiance 42-0 and Muskingum beat Waynesberg 17-16.

So just where would that group of teams (OAC minus Mount) rank in the conference rankings?

On my site, my model has the OAC as the 5th best conference (the CCIW ranks ahead of them, otherwise it's the same conferences ahead of them as in Kickoff). If I exclude Mount Union from their conference rating calculation, they would drop down to 8th, below the ASC, NWC, and IIAC (my model thinks the IIAC is consistently better than the folks running d3football think they are).

There's obviously more than one way to rank conferences, and my site is far from the only computer rating site out there for DIII, but it still gives you some idea. If you go back through the historical Top 25 rankings on d3football or by the AFCA, the OAC still consistently has their #2 or #3 teams ranked, while most other conferences struggle to get even their best team into the Top 25.

Would it be too much to ask to see how all of your Top 10 conferences would fair if you took out their best team? Being from Texas its hard for me to truly get a feel for how good the ASC really is since even when we get 2 teams into the playoffs we usually play each other.

No problem at all. Conference rankings from this season with & without best team are below:


Conference   Kickoff Rank   W/ Best Team   W/O Best Team   
WIAC   1   1   1   
CCIW   7   2   2   
MIAC   2   3   3   
E8   5   4   4   
OAC   4   5   6   
NWC   3   6   8   
IIAC   11   7   5   
ASC   8   8   9   
CC   9   9   10   
SCAC   17   10   12   
PAC   12   11   7   

You can probably ignore the ranking for the SCAC--with only four members, it's average rating can be a little misleading.

The results are somewhat as I expected. Conferences with only one elite team go down, while conference without an elite team and a little more balance go up.
poo
What frustrates you as a fan trying to compare the ASC to the nation is also frustrating to me in trying to build a good computer model--there's not enough national competition from the DIII island. In a lot of models, I think they can overfit the few non-conference results from the Texas and West Coast schools, leading to wildly variable ratings from year to year. It's my belief that a conference's average strength relative to the nation doesn't vary too much yearly, and I tried to build a model that accounts for that without "putting my finger on the dial" to make the model match my personal biases.

This is interesting. Thanks again for working this out for us.  One of the things I like about your model is the predictive value in the likelihood of teams regressing (or progressing ) to their mean. Of course, it is problematic for any model when a team or conference has an unusual year.  And maybe it's just me but it looks like the OAC minus Mount is unusually poor this year.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: ITH radio on October 03, 2016, 10:22:07 AM
Thanks to Adam Turer for joining us on our show. He appears at the 37:30 mark:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2016/10/03/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 03, 2017, 02:42:19 PM
Play of the week is interesting.

... and a left-handed wide receiver threw the 2 point conversion...

http://www.d3football.com/awards/playoftheweek/2017/week5
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: middpantherpride on October 22, 2017, 03:27:37 AM
[url]streetsmartsports.org/2017/10/20/cut-stephen-hauschka-the-journey-of-being-cut-from-the-middlebury-college-soccer-team-to-nfl-placekicker//url]

From Middlebury to Super Bowl Champ... d3 nation baby
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2017, 08:12:40 PM
With their fourth consecutive winless season, Earlham has now lost 43 games in a row.  Is that beginning to approach the record for overall futility?

If I'm not mistaken, North Park holds the record for consecutive conference losses (don't recall the number), but they usually beat at least one non-con team.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 29, 2017, 10:27:14 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 29, 2017, 08:12:40 PM
With their fourth consecutive winless season, Earlham has now lost 43 games in a row.  Is that beginning to approach the record for overall futility?

Yes. Macalester lost 50 consecutive games from 1974-79.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: justafan12 on December 14, 2017, 11:51:18 AM
I am very familiar with the D3 process in most sports except football.  My daughters both attended a D3 school without football so I am unsure of how their spring operates.  Do they have a week or two in the spring to practice with pads, etc.  Or are they not allowed contact in the spring? 

Can someone help me with some info on this?

PS I have a son transferring to play football at a D3 this spring so that is why I am wondering.

Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 14, 2017, 12:16:45 PM
Some conferences impose additional restrictions but here's the base spring practice:
15 or 16 (I forget which) practice sessions. Football allowed but no pads.

If a school is making a trip out of the country over summer break, a team gets 10 padded practices to prepare for that. You can make a trip like that once every three years.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: justafan12 on December 14, 2017, 03:41:29 PM
Yea I found after I posted this where it came up for vote in 2015 about allowing pads in the spring.  It was voted down something like 51% to 49%.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 16, 2018, 09:36:49 PM
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/

Great podcast (#233)

I believe that JHU becomes the new "Beast of the East". 

JHU has gone undefeated in Centennial Conference play 6 of the last 8 years. Coach Margraff really seemed to make this team better each week after the loss to Susquehanna.  Literally every game became a playoff game. A 2-loss JHU was not going to get an NCAA bid.

With the balance in the East making an undefeated season tough,

with JHU's geographic proximity on the east coast and within driving distance of a large portion of the AQ's around which to build a bracket,

with UMHB likely being the #1 team in the South Region rankings every season for the foreseeable future (The last time an ASC team played a Centennial Conference team in the playoffs was a 32-10 loss by Western Maryland (McDaniel) to Hardin-Simmons in the second round in 2000.)

with JHU finally getting past the second round (which they had not done since 2009)

with the questions of the difficulty in the transition of the program at Wesley that occurred with the death of Coach Drass. (I am not being insensitive. Ask me offline what happened at McMurry with the death of one of McMurry Head Coach Steve Keenum's, Case's dad, assistants. May Wesley fare much better.)

Now JHU fans can see that they have made it to the Semifinals and have a whiff of how close they are to the Stagg, even against UMU. JHU is now an even more ideal place for a student-athlete to go for football and a desirable education.

I look for JHU to become one of the perennial Top 8 powers to go very deep into the playoffs.  It will be the Blue Jays 3rd round game to lose.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: doodlesdad on August 16, 2020, 12:22:42 PM
I don't have the numbers right now but I'm guessing that would be Caltech before they gave up football.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Gray Fox on September 04, 2020, 12:00:43 PM
Quote from: doodlesdad on August 16, 2020, 12:22:42 PM
I don't have the numbers right now but I'm guessing that would be Caltech before they gave up football.

Caltech "Retired" Sports - Caltech
www.gocaltech.com › information › RetiredSports
Beginning in 1969, the football team competed against a variety of junior varsity, club and recreation teams until the program was officially retired in 1993. Caltech ...

https://www.gocaltech.com/information/RetiredSports/YearByYearResults.pdf
They had occasional wins, but I'm not sure they were against varsity teams.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 15, 2022, 02:56:50 PM
Keystone truly are Giants today as they get their first win after starting football last year and had lost their first 16 games. They hold on for a 41-39 win over Anna Maria.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: wally_wabash on October 18, 2022, 02:58:37 PM
I was really happy to see them get that win.  Coach Higgins and Kevin Lewis were great to talk to last September (https://d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2021/after-long-wait-keystone-takes-field).  They've got a good chance in at least two of their final three games as well so they may not be done winning in 2022. 
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2022, 12:37:21 AM
Quote...SUNY-Maritime at Keystone game, ... taking the opportunity to see two teams I've never seen before and get back to making progress toward seeing all Division III football programs at least once in person. I've seen 174 programs in person, although 13 of them are no longer open or at least no longer in Division III.

Major League ballplayers get to count the stadia in which they played even tho' the club may have built a new one.

In your 25 seasons of D3football.com, whom did you miss that you will not ever see?

Thanks
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2022, 05:45:57 PM
I never saw Becker and Mount Ida, which have since closed. Have not seen Colorado College or Earlham, which are currently defunct football programs.

The 13 programs: Louisiana College, St. Thomas, Wesley, Blackburn, Mississippi College, Maranatha Baptist, Presentation, Principia, Frostburg State, Thomas More, Occidental, MacMurray, Swarthmore.
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: Cowboy2 on November 13, 2022, 08:59:54 AM
Sports-Center top 10 plays this morning had a couple of D3 shout outs!

#8 - Cortland Ithaca
#3 - Mount Union
Title: Re: Around the Nation board
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 20, 2023, 12:48:22 PM
Didn't know where else to put this. Rex Ryan saying LA Chargers head coach Brandon Staley should "go back to division 3 football where he belongs". Staley was defensive line coach & special teams coach in 2009 at St Thomas and spent 2013 and 2015-16 at John Carroll as defensive coordinator & secondary coach

https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=38943711