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Started by Pat Coleman, September 22, 2005, 03:16:50 PM

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'gro

Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM
I've always said that Paul Allen thing ... someone once told me he actually made an offer -- not just any guy, but him -- and it was turned down.

No idea if that's true.

What if this was partially reversed.  Say Paul Allen decides he wants to "own" march madness.  he buys the NIT and offers the top bball schools lucrative deals to forgo the NCAA tournament for his own... and then crowns the winner as national champion.  People would look at him like he had 2 heads.  Isn't this basically how it works in Football (without the sanctioned tournament to begin with).  If the NCAA wanted to install a playoff, isn't it within their rights to do so? If teams balk for a bowl game fine... Ball State ends up playing Utah for the real championship.

aaaanyway... D3 will always interest me more than D1, it just bothers me when something is so obviously flawed.


It's the principle of the whole thing
There's principalities in this

K-Mack

Quote from: 'gro on December 03, 2008, 12:03:32 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on December 02, 2008, 09:20:48 PM
I've always said that Paul Allen thing ... someone once told me he actually made an offer -- not just any guy, but him -- and it was turned down.

No idea if that's true.

What if this was partially reversed.  Say Paul Allen decides he wants to "own" march madness.  he buys the NIT and offers the top bball schools lucrative deals to forgo the NCAA tournament for his own... and then crowns the winner as national champion.  People would look at him like he had 2 heads.  Isn't this basically how it works in Football (without the sanctioned tournament to begin with).  If the NCAA wanted to install a playoff, isn't it within their rights to do so? If teams balk for a bowl game fine... Ball State ends up playing Utah for the real championship.

aaaanyway... D3 will always interest me more than D1, it just bothers me when something is so obviously flawed.


It's the principle of the whole thing
There's principalities in this

We could talk about this for a long time ... but yes, the NCAA could push its own playoff and membership would probably splinter for a few years, creating two brackets and still no legitimate champ. Ideally we'd want them all to switch to the playoff at once.

Personally I can't see the NCAA running it unnles the Bowl Champ. Subdivision schools vote for them to do it.

Bothers me too Gro, but I'm over it.

Playing with my football, though, that's like playing with my emotions.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

Oh, don't pay me any mind ... just storing this here in case I need to refer to it any time soon:

From this fracas:
http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2008/11/29/game-day-round-of-16/#comment-13375

QuoteBartman,
You have a funny way of getting to your point. Instead of starting out having a "discussion about the issues" in the beginning, which is what normally goes on here and has been for years before you arrived, you come out guns blazing, attacking people, then you act all offended when someone hits back. You're probably going to do it with this post too.

Give me a break. At least be a man and take responsibility for the attitude you're bringing to the discussion. The victim complex, when you are just as much a party to the slandering and the arguing as the other side is, is lame.

You do have a chip on your shoulder, you've been repeating the same comment I made for three weeks now, as though that overshadows every other thing I've written about Hobart ... in the same paragraph, same article, same season or on the same website for the past eight years.

You are still welcome to post here. You are welcome to dissent. You are welcome to make your arguments, well thought out or not. But before your last post, I was starting to believe you could not be reasoned with.

I realize that in helping run a website where Dads like yourself can interactively follow their sons' careers free of charge, I don't get to choose what the discussions here entail, and how much logic and reason they involve.

However, let me explain something to you one last time. I did not go to Mount Union; in fact, I went to a school who got the snot kicked out of them by MUC the week before. I learned to appreciate Mount Union by observing they way they do things, the same way I learned to appreciate St. John's and Rowan and Mary Hardin-Baylor and UW-Whitewater, etc. When we shower people with praise around here it is earned ... perhaps that's why you crave it for Hobart so.

Guys like you come along every year running their mouths about Mount Union this, Mount Union that, ruining the perception of their school's fans in the process. It's happened with St. John Fisher fans and Ithaca fans, etc., the past couple years, and they mostly only made themselves look bad.

Usually as their D3 horizons expand, they mellow out some.

It's a shame your son was a senior this season, as I think you would have enjoyed getting to know some of the good apples from Mount Union, just as the Mount Union fans would enjoy getting to know some of the good Hobart guys.

From where I sit, I see arrogant fans arguing with each other, then slowly coming to realize that they're not all that different. I don't often get involved because I see it happen year after year on these boards. The end result is usually a good thing.

There are arrogant fans from your school, and there are arrogant fans from their school. Hobart runs a class program and deserves respect, just as Mount Union runs a class program -- regardless of whether your brief experience there reflects that or not -- and deserves respect.

The sooner you stop being one of the arrogant fans and start being one of the ones with an open mind, willing to consider what's beyond Geneva, N.Y., the sooner you'll find people on these boards already have intelligent discussions and they do have and show respect for each other. Not always, but it's here.

The D3football.com community owes a great debt of gratitude to fans from Mount Union and Hobart, among other schools, for helping to foster this atmosphere and make Post Patterns and The Daily Dose comments what they are.

We're never going to over-police the boards or censor speech in a major way, but Pat and I have no problem letting the bad apples know that while they are welcome here, their attitudes are not. We have done this from the very beginning, and while it will cost us a few patrons, in the long run it probably keeps a bunch here too. I can't speak for Pat, but I do not regret this.

You might find this ironic, Bartman, but I can recall a Mount Union fan -- I think his name was Doug -- getting very upset over a column I wrote because it didn't respect Mount Union enough. And here you are saying how D3football.com fans fawn over the Purple Raiders.

Kinda funny when I place myself in the middle of all that.

Stop being condescending, lose the victim complex and use your knowledge to contribute positively to the discussion you say you crave. I know you can do it!
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

As you all know, I like to discuss everything right out in the open.

For those of you who enjoy the e-mail files ... got an apology this week, which was one of the classier things I'd seen. I'm sure some of the details weren't meant to be made public, but it's good to see all the e-mail we get isn't crazy-folk e-mail.

There are incidents between fans every year, and some of my favorite fans from ... let's say a big-time Stagg Bowl-caliber program ... have intense dislike for fans of other big-time Stagg Bowl caliber programs.

I'm not trying to say things don't happen between fans ... Only that we don't really want to be part and parcel to escalating them, and that from where we sit, as D3football.com ... we tend to find most of the people we meet on either side of any given game are good folks at heart.

QuoteKeith-

I want to apologize for my post on the D3 boards on Saturday. Not very  classy on my part to say the least.

You guys do a tremendous job, and I very rarely ever do any blogging  or posting, and my emotions got the best of me.

I visit the site several times a day during the season and will  continue to do so, and I will not get carried away again!

FYI, I am a Franklln alum, and my eldest son plays for Coach L as do several of his HS teammates.
I have been following FC football since the mid 70's, have seen a lot  of good and bad football over the years, and this team is special. And there's not a finer coach in the country by all standards.

As an aside, what I was referring to in my post was the fact that during the second half, in our tailgate area, some NC students or young alums stole most of the contents of our coolers, as well as 
personal items.

As we were departing, we stopped by the stadium so we all could use the restroom, which was nearby the NC tailgating area. We had an FC flag on the car, and we were treated to profane commentary which
I don't need to repeat. We didn't say a word.

NC was by far the best team we've played (definitely NOT over-rated), and I'm pretty sure we are the only team in the bracket that could've  beaten them. So I am sure their fans were upset, but they were, in fact, very classless, at least a few of them.

I think you are aware of our tailgating, which is the best in D3, so I  was just a bit surprised at their behavior...I am very sure they didn't hear anything like that last season from our fans.

Anyway, again, my apologies. Hope to see you down the line...I'll apologize in person.

G
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

'gro

Quote from: K-Mack on December 03, 2008, 08:49:14 PM
Playing with my football, though, that's like playing with my emotions.

Nice comeback. +k

old ends

Yesterday's New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/sports/ncaafootball/07rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball

Maybe they should ask, why can Div II and III do it and not us?

Ralph Turner

#1566
Quote from: old ends on December 07, 2008, 04:05:23 PM
Yesterday's New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/07/sports/ncaafootball/07rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=ncaafootball

Maybe they should ask, why can Div II and III do it and not us?
Coach Teaff answered the reporter's question.

The inertia is maintained by:

The Football Coaches -- there is only one National Champion.  There are 16 bowl winners and another 6-8 of the bowl losers can point to the success of the season and to "next year" after the bowl loss.  Therefore annually there are only 5-7 dissatisfied coaches dealing with their fans and alumni.  This is to get the fans to accept mediocrity.  Why does a team only need "6 wins" in a 12-game season to be bowl eligible?

The Presidents -- who have not wanted to deal with this at the level of the NCAA.

The Bowls --

a)  Travel industry for that weekend.  We have not seen a decrease in the number of bowl games under this current system.  Every town that can find a corporate sponsor will invest in a Bowl. What is the likelihood that the bowls will thrive under the new system?  If it were a "slam dunk", then it would have been done. 

b)  Bowl sponsors -- corporate policy and "perks" are included in the bowl by the sponsors.  They have a sophisticated multi-year corporate strategy tied to the bowl contract.  Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl in Fort Worth, TX?

The Media --  Plenty of sports content for the Cable sports stations.  Do ESPN, ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, etc. really want the bidding war that will arise from this?  NBC is already having trouble selling their complete allotment of 30-second Super Bowl ads?  We also hear how advertising revenue from the Olympics is sometimes not up to the pro formae.

K-Mack

If preserving the Bowls were truly necessary, a 16-team playoff could support the top 15 bowl games, and the Poinsettia Bowls and Motor City Bowls would survive much as they are, featuring teams who have no chance at the national championship and that only fans of the participating schools care about. Division III playoffs and Bowls function side-by-side, it can be done.

In 16/15, each round could be a bowl game. Independence, Sun, et. al. could be early rounds, followed by Citrus and Cotton, followed by Orange, Fiesta, Rose.

I prefer having early rounds on site and hanging the bowls out to dry, but that's me.

Rhoden's column actually isn't bad. I almost never favor government getting involved in sports, but in tight economic times, pulling the tax-exempt status might be the right thing to do without the ultimatum. Or even if there weren't tight economic times.

Bottom line is people have to decide what's important. If crowning a national champion is more important than playing for fun, for money and preserving the bowls, then there are people smart enough to figure out how to make it profitable for a lot of cities, schools, media companies, etc.

If maintaining the status quo is really what they want, that's their prerogative. They might keep selling this bogus "national championship" crap, but I'm past the point where I'm no longer buying.

I've actually reached the point where I do not care, and I've enjoyed Division I-A football and atmospheres over the years. But I actually didn't know who won any of the championship games until I got into work on Sunday and saw it in the paper.

Rounds with playoffs are that much more compelling. Why waste an ounce of energy arguing over who should have got in and who was screwed when the powers that be know what they have to do to fix it.

I used this analogy elsewhere this week, but it's like having a friend who drinks too much. At some point you can't keep telling him he needs to stop, he just has to learn on his own. He knows what he has to do to fix himself, and you can't continue to support that lifestyle by enabling it.

I gave $0 and 0:00 this year to Division I-A football (OK, I watched the end of Texas-Texas Tech at the Riverwalk), and I'd like to maintain that until they either come to their senses, or admit they are playing just to play, and stop with the fake crowning of national champs.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

PA_wesleyfan

And now that they have stretched the  bowl games out over a three  week period, whats the big deal... >:(   Money Money Money..... ;D
Football !!! The ultimate team sport. Anyone who plays DIII football is a winner...

K-Mack

Well here we go again.

Just thought I'd preserve my spoken piece so I can refer back to it when I inevitably need it again.

QuoteD3Keith Says:

December 9th, 2008 at 12:14 am e

QuoteSJF FAN wrote:
If you disagree with a view fine, if you don't like someone for their lack of bowing down to the MUC alter Ok, but to shut out someone completely on a web blog of all things though is pretty small on your part.

You know, if I hear one more person say that stupid [expletive] about bowing at the MUC altar ...

Stop trying to sound cool and tough. Man up and give respect where it is due.

Unlike such eminently hateable teams as the Yankees, who outspend nearly everybody else, or the Dallas Cowboys, who employ guys who run their mouths or run afoul of the law, Mount Union does things the way you wish your program did. And in fact, if St. John Fisher, Hobart, Ithaca or any of about 220 others did it 1/9th as well, we'd shower them with deserved praise, because that's what happens when you tell it like it is.

You don't have to like them or UW-W or UMHB et. al., but you should respect them. Otherwise you just make yourself look bad.

Jealousy is a stinky cologne, my brothers.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Ron Boerger

Quote from: K-Mack on December 14, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.

Yeh, it has been nearly two years since they won, after all  :D

If UW-W repeats there will prolly be a "should the WIAC move up to Division II" thread to replace it.   ;)

Bill McCabe

Quote from: K-Mack on December 08, 2008, 12:15:21 AM
If preserving the Bowls were truly necessary, a 16-team playoff could support the top 15 bowl games, and the Poinsettia Bowls and Motor City Bowls would survive much as they are, featuring teams who have no chance at the national championship and that only fans of the participating schools care about. Division III playoffs and Bowls function side-by-side, it can be done.

In 16/15, each round could be a bowl game. Independence, Sun, et. al. could be early rounds, followed by Citrus and Cotton, followed by Orange, Fiesta, Rose.

I prefer having early rounds on site and hanging the bowls out to dry, but that's me.

Rhoden's column actually isn't bad. I almost never favor government getting involved in sports, but in tight economic times, pulling the tax-exempt status might be the right thing to do without the ultimatum. Or even if there weren't tight economic times.

Bottom line is people have to decide what's important. If crowning a national champion is more important than playing for fun, for money and preserving the bowls, then there are people smart enough to figure out how to make it profitable for a lot of cities, schools, media companies, etc.

If maintaining the status quo is really what they want, that's their prerogative. They might keep selling this bogus "national championship" crap, but I'm past the point where I'm no longer buying.

I've actually reached the point where I do not care, and I've enjoyed Division I-A football and atmospheres over the years. But I actually didn't know who won any of the championship games until I got into work on Sunday and saw it in the paper.

Rounds with playoffs are that much more compelling. Why waste an ounce of energy arguing over who should have got in and who was screwed when the powers that be know what they have to do to fix it.

I used this analogy elsewhere this week, but it's like having a friend who drinks too much. At some point you can't keep telling him he needs to stop, he just has to learn on his own. He knows what he has to do to fix himself, and you can't continue to support that lifestyle by enabling it.

I gave $0 and 0:00 this year to Division I-A football (OK, I watched the end of Texas-Texas Tech at the Riverwalk), and I'd like to maintain that until they either come to their senses, or admit they are playing just to play, and stop with the fake crowning of national champs.

K-Mack, I agree with your thinking.  Do you think these same arguements were made when the NCAA basketball tournament expanded and relegated the NIT to secondary status?"

labart96

Quote from: K-Mack on December 14, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Has anybody seen the 'Should Mount Union move up to Division II or stay put?' thread, or has it been pruned?

It's that time of year when I see lots of references to that thought, and I'd love to point people toward our intelligent discussion of it, but i can't seem to find it. It's probably gone.

I really don't see the point in that discussion.  Hobart ruled D3 men's lacrosse for 20 years and probably would have continued to if not for the NCAA basically penalizing D1 schools for playing D3 teams after the 94 season.  Back then Hobart pretty much only played the 3 game minimum to qualify for the D3 playoffs and the remainder of their 12 or so game schedule were D1 teams.

Given the possibility of playing an all D3 schedule or keeping long-standing rivalries with Cornell (100+ years) and Syracuse (90+ years) as well as newer ones with Georgetown not to mention Army, Navy, Bucknell and other Patriot League schools (Hobart had a brief stint in the PL in the late 90's/early 00's until we got the boot from that league b/c we were not a member school in other sports - I am sure the fact we won the title 4 out 5 or 6 seasons may have helped the other PL AD's to vote for our ouster, but either way) Hobart decided to make the jump.

I really don't see any benefit from MUC's standpoint to relinquish the mantle of D3 powerhouse without any pressure from the NCAA to do so. 

labart96