East Region Playoff Discussion

Started by pg04, November 10, 2006, 11:00:19 PM

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Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: DanPadavona on November 05, 2010, 07:38:54 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 05, 2010, 04:29:50 PM
I think we used to talk the same way about it being Mount Union and everyone else. We were always urging teams to stand up to Mount Union, elevate their game and compete. UWW managed to do it. Maybe someone else can.

But it cannot be an Eastern team.  Keith's article is dead-on about the number of schools dividing the talent in MA and NY especially.  Ithaca's national prominence ended right about the time that Buffalo State, Brockport, and especially Fisher became strong.  All of these schools, including the 1-AA and II teams divide the talent.

Why is Whitewater able to match Mount Union?  Take a look at the Wisconson map.  Besides the obvious University of Wisconson, there is just a handful of schools.  Plenty of great talent to go around too.

In the East things just keep getting worse and worse.  Now Utica is apparently getting good.  Morrisville went D3.  Hartwick started a program and became competitive.  Maritime started a program.  It's getting ridiculous.  There is a lot of talent up here, but not enough to support a super power unless one school dominates all of the talent.

I think if a couple Boston-centric schools folded their programs, Curry could be a major threat too.  They do well enough despite the dog fight for local talent.

I'd love to see the East rise in prominence again, but somebody has to convince me it can happen in this environment.  If it does, it will probably be in NJ or PA.  I could see Del Valley possibly pulling it off.

But that just isn't true.  Adjusted for size of population, there are many states in the midwest and elsewhere who have MORE football-playing schools per capita than in the east.  (I can't find the post, but someone tallied up something like 28 schools in Ohio alone.)  And Wisconsin has far more football-playing schools than you seem aware of - in addition to all the WIAC schools, there are MWC, NathCon, and CCIW schools (and one or two d2s).  In Michigan, there is the MIAA (aside from Trine, just across the border), NAIA schools, many of the d2 powers, and 5 d1 schools.

The east has a lot of schools in a small geographic area, but also a large population.  And the east is actually the smallest region in terms of d3, since the NESCAC (in football) is its own separate universe.

HScoach

Here's the list for Ohio:


DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College


DIII
16.  Baldwin Wallace
17.  Bluffton
18.  Capital
19.  Case Westeren
20.  Defiance
21.  Dennison
22.  Heidelberg
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster

NAIA
37.  Ohio Domincan
38.  Malone – moving to D2
39.  Walsh – moving to D2
40. Notre Dame College – moving to D2 (I think)
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, what they hide is essential.

Mr. Ypsi

I apologize to HScoach for forgetting he was the one who compiled the list, and wow did I misremember the number!  FORTY in Ohio alone is just about what the east has total in d3 (since the NESCAC doesn't really count in football).

bomber3

Although it can't compare to Texas, the state of Ohio has that same devotion/obsession @ the high school level.  NYS and PA don't have the same type of feelings toward HS football, which plays a significant role.  Also, the population numbers in a lot of areas these schools in the East pull from (upstate NY, PA) has declined the past 20 years.  When I was at Ithaca they were planning for the decrease in teens from CT and MA and how it would affect enrollment.  Also, the east numbers are skewed by NYC.  10 million people in the city and hardly any football players.  The outlying areas are good (CT, NJ) but the city does not produce a proportionate amount of football players.  All of these factors contribute to why the East has declined IMO.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: bomber3 on November 05, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
Although it can't compare to Texas, the state of Ohio has that same devotion/obsession @ the high school level.  NYS and PA don't have the same type of feelings toward HS football, which plays a significant role.  Also, the population numbers in a lot of areas these schools in the East pull from (upstate NY, PA) has declined the past 20 years.  When I was at Ithaca they were planning for the decrease in teens from CT and MA and how it would affect enrollment.  Also, the east numbers are skewed by NYC.  10 million people in the city and hardly any football players.  The outlying areas are good (CT, NJ) but the city does not produce a proportionate amount of football players.  All of these factors contribute to why the East has declined IMO.

The decline in passion is not just just an east phenomenon (I have no idea as to participation numbers).  20-30 years ago the QB and 'Homecoming King' were guaranteed to be the same guy in Michigan.  Such is no longer the case! ::)

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2010, 09:23:52 PM
I apologize to HScoach for forgetting he was the one who compiled the list, and wow did I misremember the number!  FORTY in Ohio alone is just about what the east has total in d3 (since the NESCAC doesn't really count in football).

It takes talented kids away from other teams, so it counts. Admittedly, the schools cast a wider net in recruiting but there are till NE kids who aren't playing at Union or wherever because they're at a NESCAC school.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 05, 2010, 10:32:38 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2010, 09:23:52 PM
I apologize to HScoach for forgetting he was the one who compiled the list, and wow did I misremember the number!  FORTY in Ohio alone is just about what the east has total in d3 (since the NESCAC doesn't really count in football).

It takes talented kids away from other teams, so it counts. Admittedly, the schools cast a wider net in recruiting but there are till NE kids who aren't playing at Union or wherever because they're at a NESCAC school.

Yes, that is true.  I was focusing on a different point, and lost sight of the recruiting aspect.

I will still maintain that the "too many schools in too small an area" excuse is bogus.  I suggest that Iowa has far more football schools per person than the east region does.

JT

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2010, 04:34:34 PM
And if this site had been around in the 1980s, no doubt the same thing would have been said about Augustana. :P

Fortunately, as the Vikings discovered, all dynasties end eventually.  Mt. Union (and now UWW) just seem to be taking longer than most to fall! :o 8-)

Someone needs to kidnap LK before the season then drop him off at the 'Hood blindfolded before Xmas after the season.

JT

Quote from: HScoach on November 05, 2010, 08:09:32 PM
The changing landscape in Ohio is going to make it harder for Mount to remain at the top into the next decade.  Two nearby NAIA schools in Canton (20 miles away) are moving to D2 and a couple new D2 schools have started in the Cleveland area too.  Plus factoring in the shrinking population and economy in Ohio and convincing 100 kids a year to pay $30k+ a year to play football at Mount is going to be a lot harder than it's been.

If anyone is primed to keep stay on top it's Whitewater.  Only one D1 school in all of Wisconsin and cheap state school tuition.

It's just a complete guess on my part, but I bet LK has less than 5 years left on the sidelines.  And when he walks, the end is immediate. :'(

Does this mean that you think Vince K is not close to Dad in ability?

JT

Quote from: bomber3 on November 05, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
Although it can't compare to Texas, the state of Ohio has that same devotion/obsession @ the high school level.  NYS and PA don't have the same type of feelings toward HS football, which plays a significant role.  Also, the population numbers in a lot of areas these schools in the East pull from (upstate NY, PA) has declined the past 20 years.  When I was at Ithaca they were planning for the decrease in teens from CT and MA and how it would affect enrollment.  Also, the east numbers are skewed by NYC.  10 million people in the city and hardly any football players.  The outlying areas are good (CT, NJ) but the city does not produce a proportionate amount of football players.  All of these factors contribute to why the East has declined IMO.

Much of my family comes from Western PA.  You may want to divide that state.  Western PA HS football is very big on Friday nights... Pittsburgh, Beaver Falls, Erie etc. 15-20K at a high school game is typical.

PBR...

Quote from: JT on November 06, 2010, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: bomber3 on November 05, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
Although it can't compare to Texas, the state of Ohio has that same devotion/obsession @ the high school level.  NYS and PA don't have the same type of feelings toward HS football, which plays a significant role.  Also, the population numbers in a lot of areas these schools in the East pull from (upstate NY, PA) has declined the past 20 years.  When I was at Ithaca they were planning for the decrease in teens from CT and MA and how it would affect enrollment.  Also, the east numbers are skewed by NYC.  10 million people in the city and hardly any football players.  The outlying areas are good (CT, NJ) but the city does not produce a proportionate amount of football players.  All of these factors contribute to why the East has declined IMO.

Much of my family comes from Western PA.  You may want to divide that state.  Western PA HS football is very big on Friday nights... Pittsburgh, Beaver Falls, Erie etc. 15-20K at a high school game is typical.

as is eastern pa....regularly attended games w/ 10-15K in the stands...inner cities don't draw well in especially in philly but suburbs and up in the coal region draw exceptionally well.

Knightstalker

Quote from: PBR... on November 06, 2010, 09:05:12 PM
Quote from: JT on November 06, 2010, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: bomber3 on November 05, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
Although it can't compare to Texas, the state of Ohio has that same devotion/obsession @ the high school level.  NYS and PA don't have the same type of feelings toward HS football, which plays a significant role.  Also, the population numbers in a lot of areas these schools in the East pull from (upstate NY, PA) has declined the past 20 years.  When I was at Ithaca they were planning for the decrease in teens from CT and MA and how it would affect enrollment.  Also, the east numbers are skewed by NYC.  10 million people in the city and hardly any football players.  The outlying areas are good (CT, NJ) but the city does not produce a proportionate amount of football players.  All of these factors contribute to why the East has declined IMO.

Much of my family comes from Western PA.  You may want to divide that state.  Western PA HS football is very big on Friday nights... Pittsburgh, Beaver Falls, Erie etc. 15-20K at a high school game is typical.

as is eastern pa....regularly attended games w/ 10-15K in the stands...inner cities don't draw well in especially in philly but suburbs and up in the coal region draw exceptionally well.

Easton Pburg on Thanksgiving in the eastern most part of PA has to be played at Lafayette' Fisher Field to accommodate all the fans.  Go to any Easton, Nazareth, Bethlehem Catholic etc games and you will see some huge crowds.  Football is huge all over PA.

"In the end we will survive rather than perish not because we accumulate comfort and luxury but because we accumulate wisdom"  Colonel Jack Jacobs US Army (Ret).

Frank Rossi

Assuming Pacific Lutheran and Redlands wins (and records are included that would represent such wins), here are the teams competing for Pool C with 0- or 1-loss(es) (* - Team could win its conference's Pool A Automatic Bid still):

Hardin-Simmons (8-1) -- at Louisiana College (6-3)
Wheaton (Ill.) (8-1) -- at Millikin (4-5)
Montclair St. (8-1) -- at Wm. Paterson (4-5)
* Rowan (8-1) -- at New Jersey (5-4)
* Cortland (8-1) -- vs. Ithaca (6-3)
Pacific Lutheran (7-1) -- vs. Willamette (7-2)
Ohio Northern (8-1) -- vs. Heidelberg (5-4)
Hampden-Sydney (8-1) -- vs. Randolph-Macon (7-2)
Coe (8-1) -- at Cornell (0-9)
Redlands (7-1) -- vs. Chapman (4-4)
Bethel (8-1) -- vs. Augsburg (4-5)
* Wittenberg (9-0) -- at Wooster (5-4)


I will go back and add SoS figures once all games go final since these numbers would be affected -- and if Pacific Lutheran and/or Redlands lose, I will delete accordingly.

Frank Rossi

South
--------
Hampden-Sydney (8-1, 0.524 -- 0.523/0.527) -- vs. Randolph-Macon (7-2, 0.446)
Hardin-Simmons (8-1, 0.502 -- 0.492/0.523) -- at Louisiana College (6-3, 0.456)

North
-------
Wheaton (Ill.) (8-1, 0.604 -- 0.614/0.583) -- at Millikin (4-5, 0.581)
Ohio Northern (8-1 (7-1 Region), 0.512 -- 0.508/0.521) -- vs. Heidelberg (5-4, 0.456)
* Wittenberg (9-0, 0.416 -- 0.365/0.517) -- at Wooster (5-4, 0.441)
** Wabash (7-2 (7-1 Region), 0.525 -- 0.552/0.472) -- vs. DePauw (9-0, 0.522)
** Washington U. (7-2 (4-1 Region), 0.442 -- 0.412/0.503) -- at Chicago (7-2, 0.530)

East
------
Montclair St. (8-1, 0.500 -- 0.493/0.515) -- at Wm. Paterson (4-5, 0.394)
* Rowan (8-1, 0.497 -- 0.486/0.518) -- at New Jersey (5-4, 0.408)
* Cortland (8-1, 0.491 -- 0.486/0.501) -- vs. Ithaca (6-3, 0.588)

West
-------
Coe (8-1 (6-1 Region), 0.543 -- 0.571/0.488) -- at Cornell (0-9, 0.535)
Bethel (8-1, 0.513 -- 0.493/0.552) -- vs. Augsburg (4-5, 0.479)
Redlands (7-1, 0.503 -- 0.481/0.547) -- vs. Chapman (4-4, 0.462)
Pacific Lutheran (7-1 (6-1 Region), 0.463 -- 0.438/0.514) -- vs. Willamette (7-2, 0.511)

* - Team May Still Win Its Conference's Pool A Bid
** - Team Included Since In-Region Record Includes Just One Loss

After Win/Loss Records are NCAA SoS -- OWP/OOWP -- Final Opponent (W/L, OWP of Final Opponent)

Frank Rossi

I'm going to point out something for some thoughts here:

Look at Wabash.  If Wabash can beat DePauw next weekend, it has gained a quality win and will have an SoS of about 0.560 to go with it (which would currently be in the Top 30 nationally and second best among Pool C contenders).  Does the Committee honor the 7-1 In-Region record or the 7-2 Overall record here?  Doesn't Wabash deserve to be considered here?  Don't count Wabash out quite yet.