MBB: Northwest Conference

Started by The Show, March 06, 2005, 08:40:16 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: A Buc Forever on January 26, 2015, 02:39:28 AMSager,

Coaching and recruiting are both important for your program but coaching is far more important than recruiting.

No. You're missing the point. Recruiting is a part of coaching. Recruiting is every bit as much of an item on a coach's job description as are running practices, breaking down film, drawing up X's and O's, program administration (including supervising assistants), and game management.

You're treating recruiting as if it's in a box over there in the corner, completely separate from coaching. And that's the wrong way to look at it. Recruiting is simply one of several elements within the overall profession of coaching for a college basketball head coach. It's not an isolated and distinct function.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

(509)Rat

This is the dumbest argument I've seen on here in awhile, and that's saying something since blackhawks is a regular poster...

But really Sager is missing the point because when you read A Buc's post you understand that he meant X's and O's and player development are more important than recruiting. I mean it's really, really obvious when you read his OSU example. Agree or disagree with that if you will, but to make some philosophical point because he used the word "coaching" is a waste of my time...we get it, Finkle is Einhorn, Einhorn is Finkel...

As for my COTY comment...I was only being somewhat facetious. Look, Ione was picked to finish dead last, with 10 points in the pre-season coaches poll. Basically every other coach in the league said they would finish last and they are sitting here ahead of UPS. Besides the fact that I can't stop laughing at that last statement, it's impressive. Every so often the guy who shatters expectations deserves COTY (see: Sundquist 2013). But I'm totally cool with giving Whitworth every award, every year because lets be honest, they have the best coach, the best players, the best record, etc. year in and year out.

TryMeTeam

#6107
You are both wrong!

Rat:

It may be dumb, but I think you both have it wrong, and I am further from Sager's side, but I get what he is saying.  You are right they are not the same, but recruiting is more important that coaching.  If Coach K (Duke) is at Linfield (not attacking Linfield, just picking the team in last place) right now, he would not win any more games than Rosenberg.  But give him a couple of years of recruiting, and they might be very good and win league.  That is the value of recruiting.  Get the best players, you win more games.  Period.  A bad coach can hurt a team, but a great can't make all-stars out of below average players.  Ask any coach, would he want the best players or be the best coach, I know what he says.  You should have said "because lets be honest, they have the best players, the best players, the best players, etc. year in and year out".

Greg:

I may be nitpicking, but ...  Coaching and recruiting are separate but both the head coach's job and responsibility, and on his job description.  That doesn't make them the same thing, and the coach wears the different hats at different times.  A coach does not recruit during games or practices, and he does not coach when recruiting young men.

A coach does have several individual jobs as part of his job as "Coach", as you mention, and coaching and recruiting are just two of them.  I believe they are distinctly separate, and recruiting is more important, certainly more than checking a box.

Finally, Coach Ione has done a "COTY" job this year (finally), but it is political and will go to the league champion.

madzillagd

Well you have to also factor in that the HC isn't necessarily doing all the recruiting.  Depending on the program, it's often the assistants that are doing 75% of the legwork in the recruiting and the HC is just there to seal the deal at the end.  Coach K isn't spending every day on the road in the offseason tracking down players.  He's got people doing that for him and he gets to concentrate his own time on the select few.  Not all HC jobs are weighted the same when it comes to recruiting responsibilities.  Some coaches have more to do, others have less.

Keandre

I know we have former players on this board, but do we have any coaches that have any experience in the recruiting field that can talk about the importance of recruiting, how it is done, and how it is NOT just the head coaches job? Are there any assistant coaches that have any knowledge on this subject? There are many on here that know basketball and have great opinions, just curious to see if anyone has the first hand knowledge of what it takes to be a coach and how recruiting and coaching tie into one another to help build a program to what THAT coach would like it to be. And for the record, it would be nice to always have the best players, but not all of the best players are willing to buy into every system, and its a coaches job to get the best players for their system.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: (509)Rat on January 26, 2015, 11:17:11 PM
This is the dumbest argument I've seen on here in awhile, and that's saying something since blackhawks is a regular poster...

But really Sager is missing the point because when you read A Buc's post you understand that he meant X's and O's and player development are more important than recruiting. I mean it's really, really obvious when you read his OSU example.

Of course it's obvious what he meant. Nevertheless, he's wrong.

Quote from: (509)Rat on January 26, 2015, 11:17:11 PMAgree or disagree with that if you will, but to make some philosophical point because he used the word "coaching" is a waste of my time

If it's a waste of your time, then don't read the posts. Q.E.D.

Quote from: TryMeTeam on January 27, 2015, 02:42:34 AM
Greg:

I may be nitpicking, but ...  Coaching and recruiting are separate but both the head coach's job and responsibility, and on his job description.  That doesn't make them the same thing, and the coach wears the different hats at different times.  A coach does not recruit during games or practices, and he does not coach when recruiting young men.

A coach does have several individual jobs as part of his job as "Coach", as you mention, and coaching and recruiting are just two of them.  I believe they are distinctly separate, and recruiting is more important, certainly more than checking a box.

"Coach" is both a noun and a verb, TMT. What does a coach do? He coaches. If recruiting was separate from coaching, he'd have the title "Head Coach / Head Recruiter" on his office door. He doesn't, because recruiting is part of coaching.

Everything that he does within his capacity as the coach -- recruiting, game prep, running practices, administration, game management -- falls under the rubric of coaching. Saying that he isn't coaching when he's out recruiting is like saying that a teacher isn't teaching when he/she is grading papers at home, or that a cook isn't cooking when he/she is chopping up the vegetables. Or, to use another analogy, saying that a coach isn't coaching when the public can't see what he's doing -- since it appears that you guys seem to equate "coaching" with game management -- is like saying that an iceberg only consists of the one-tenth that you can see, while the other nine-tenths of the floating formation of frozen water is something other than an iceberg.

Coaching and recruiting are not separate. Recruiting is a part of coaching. To say that one part of what a coach does for a living is "coaching" and another part isn't is not only arbitrary, it makes no sense at all.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Pinecone_Curtain

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 27, 2015, 04:49:56 PM
Quote from: TryMeTeam on January 27, 2015, 02:42:34 AM
Greg:

I may be nitpicking, but ...  Coaching and recruiting are separate but both the head coach's job and responsibility, and on his job description.  That doesn't make them the same thing, and the coach wears the different hats at different times.  A coach does not recruit during games or practices, and he does not coach when recruiting young men.

A coach does have several individual jobs as part of his job as "Coach", as you mention, and coaching and recruiting are just two of them.  I believe they are distinctly separate, and recruiting is more important, certainly more than checking a box.

"Coach" is both a noun and a verb, TMT. What does a coach do? He coaches. If recruiting was separate from coaching, he'd have the title "Head Coach / Head Recruiter" on his office door. He doesn't, because recruiting is part of coaching.

Everything that he does within his capacity as the coach -- recruiting, game prep, running practices, administration, game management -- falls under the rubric of coaching. Saying that he isn't coaching when he's out recruiting is like saying that a teacher isn't teaching when he/she is grading papers at home, or that a cook isn't cooking when he/she is chopping up the vegetables. Or, to use another analogy, saying that a coach isn't coaching when the public can't see what he's doing -- since it appears that you guys seem to equate "coaching" with game management -- is like saying that an iceberg only consists of the one-tenth that you can see, while the other nine-tenths of the floating formation of frozen water is something other than an iceberg.

Coaching and recruiting are not separate. Recruiting is a part of coaching. To say that one part of what a coach does for a living is "coaching" and another part isn't is not only arbitrary, it makes no sense at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0&spfreload=10

Coaches have to recruit to be successful. Coaches have to teach to be successful. Recruiting isn't coaching, but coaching involves recruiting. You're both right. Let's move on.

A Buc Forever

Pinecone gets a +1 for that link.

What I do care about is WW being half way into the league season and being undefeated.  Given that the greatest moment in the Whitman athletic history was beating the 2011 Whitworth team, The Bucs are going to have to get ready for that game in Walla Walla. I am betting we don't slip up again.

(509)Rat

This is a fun read for Whitworth fans...well once you get over the fact that Tyler Harvey was headed to Spokane and not Cheney before Hayford left  :'(

The Eastern Washington Eagles are your new favorite team, you just don't know it yet

A Buc Forever

Quote from: (509)Rat on January 27, 2015, 08:14:00 PM
This is a fun read for Whitworth fans...well once you get over the fact that Tyler Harvey was headed to Spokane and not Cheney before Hayford left  :'(

The Eastern Washington Eagles are your new favorite team, you just don't know it yet


Not to mention that Eastern's other wing, Parker Kelly was also headed to WW when Hayford took the job at Eastern.  That's a scary D3 backcourt.

blackhawks4

Switching topics:  How do you rank the coaching jobs in the NWC?  WW is obviously the best job in conference.  Linfield 2nd?  3rd?  What's the worst job in the conference?

D O.C.

Whitman's greatest athletic achievement was knocking LINFIELD out of the NWC crown 9-18 in 1973 and they soon dropped football.

If I was a coach at the DIII level I'd be shaking the hand of every kid I saw with a letterman's jacket that had a basketball on the letter. I'd know where the summer camps are and go shake the owner's hand. Of course, I'd run my own. Recruiting is a lifestyle.

Pinecone_Curtain

#6117
Quote from: A Buc Forever on January 27, 2015, 09:04:33 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on January 27, 2015, 08:14:00 PM
This is a fun read for Whitworth fans...well once you get over the fact that Tyler Harvey was headed to Spokane and not Cheney before Hayford left  :'(

The Eastern Washington Eagles are your new favorite team, you just don't know it yet


Not to mention that Eastern's other wing, Parker Kelly was also headed to WW when Hayford took the job at Eastern.  That's a scary D3 backcourt.

And this is why I'm convinced if Hayford was still at WW, we would have a National Championship banner in the Fieldhouse.

Quote from: blackhawks4 on January 28, 2015, 10:38:25 AM
Switching topics:  How do you rank the coaching jobs in the NWC?  WW is obviously the best job in conference.  Linfield 2nd?  3rd?  What's the worst job in the conference?

I think for tradition and crowd support Whitworth is undoubtedly #1. However, Whitworth has a few things against it: some of my friends who played at other NWC schools called the Fieldhouse the "airplane hangar," so that's a downside; Whitworth, academically speaking, is roughly middle of the pack in the NWC (behind WM & LC, but ahead of others); it's a Christian school, so that automatically hurts with some players; and, for better or worse, it's in Spokane.

I like Portland better, I like UPS and Whitman's gyms better, WM and LC are better schools, PLU and WM give the most financial aid money...so I think it's fairly even between those schools.

I guess I'd rank right this second like this:
1) WW
2) WM
3) UPS (love this school)
4) LC (beautiful Portland campus)
5) WIL (love the gym and campus)
6) PLU (Parkland sucks but they give financial aid like it's on trees)
7) PAC (Forest Grove?)
8) GF (women's hoops this is probably #1, but all the students leave after the women's games)
9) LIN (football is king)

A Buc Forever

WW is so dominant in sports right now for one reason:  Bill Robinson.  The former president is passionate about sports. He recognized how sports can help build up a university and used sports to help transform WW. Bill's transformation of WW, sports, academics, culture, was absolutely amazing.  So the best job depends on who is running the university and what their commitment to athletics is. I don't think Beck Taylor is Bill Robinson, but he seems dedicated enough to keep the ball rolling.  I assume Linfield will always have a supportive president--great facility, etc. However, maybe Playball is right, basketball is excluded from the support the other sports at Linfield get.  Beyond those two schools, it depends on the mood of the president as to how attractive the head basketball job is.

(509)Rat

If I were applying today, to the program/University in it's current state...

1. Whitworth - Recent dominance, one of if not the most supportive administration in the NWC (includes getting in players who wouldn't qualify based on academics), big (largest?) basketball budget in the NWC, best gameday atmosphere in the conference
2. UPS - best recruiting backyard (Sea/Tac), also have an admin that is very supportive of athletics (other than football they do really well in other sports), top tier in the conference academically, unfortunately they are also top tier in terms of cost
3. Whitman - Recently they've got the most supportive admin and alumni, great gameday atmosphere as students have nothing else to do and nothing besides a good tennis program to cheer for, Higher end of the conference in terms of tuition and living in Walla Walla are negatives. Weird student body too, probably off putting to some recruits
4. L&C - Another school with great academics but high cost and a campus full of weirdos. Portland and the campus should be enough to jump them ahead of Whitman...you can never trust that administration though...
5. Willamette - An older history of winning but its history nonetheless, some of the best academics but higher tuition comes with it, a student body that is generally supportive of athletics (when the games are on campus, heaven forbid they drive 20-30 miles up the road for a game though)
6. Linfield - easiest school to get into in the conference and nice facilities, you get a sense that athletics are a big part of the University in terms of campus life/attitude but the AD and football alumni will hate you apparently. Not worth the battle when it wouldn't be an issue in most of the conference
7. PLU - They have the lowest tuition in the conference so I'm not sure if they actually give out a lot more money than anyone else but it doesn't matter, they are cheap (relatively speaking), Parkland sucks but you have a relatively supportive administration and have a lot of good basketball players a short ride from your campus. They haven't won a conference championship in almost 30 years though so there is something working against you as a coach.
8. George Fox - they've had some good teams in other sports which I don't understand because you could never convince me to go to that school for 4 years
9. Pacific - actually has the highest tuition, no history/tradition of winning, Forest Grove is not close enough to Portland to be worth it