D3 Proposals at the 2020 NCAA Convention

Started by Ron Boerger, January 25, 2020, 01:43:11 PM

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jknezek

Quote from: justafan12 on January 28, 2020, 05:59:48 PM
Since I first started following D3 softball about 10 years ago I have noticed more and more teams "traveling" to a warm weather location to get their games in.  Lots of spots in Florida and Arizona for games and now teams are flying to Texas and then traveling to various locations for games.  This helps with the non conference schedule but does nothing for conference games.

And please don't reduce the number of games.  They are limited to 40 games as it is which is not many in the grand scheme of things.

How many D3 team sports play 40 games? None that I know of except baseball and softball. That's a ton of games. Basketball and volleyball go low to mid 30s plus the NCAA tournament. Soccer and field hockey are around 20. Lacrosse and football way less. Saying 40 isn't a big number in the grand scheme of things is pretty odd.

Pat Coleman

Softball, especially, plays doubleheaders, and 20 competition dates compares quite favorably against those numbers you cite.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

jknezek

Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 28, 2020, 08:42:28 PM
Softball, especially, plays doubleheaders, and 20 competition dates compares quite favorably against those numbers you cite.

Sure. But to say 40 games, 20 double headers or not, is not a lot is just odd. Come on. There are 230 or so softball schools. 40 games is huge compared to the number of games and teams in other sports. I'm not advocating cutting them, I'm just a bit stumped at the statement.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Teams don't tend to play nothing but double-headers. That usually is a conference thing. It usually equates to about 28+ game dates. The trickier part being that they consolidate into a small period of time ... near the end of semesters ... which makes no sense to me when it comes to being a student.
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Caz Bombers

Division I softball plays 56 games, and before that limit was imposed in 2009, some warm weather schools would play up to 65 games before they even got to NCAA regionals. That was a little much.

40 games isn't very many at all and most teams up here don't even bother scheduling 40 anymore since it's expensive and they know they won't get the OOC games in anyway. When a program gets its schedule pared down to basically nothing but "spring training" and conference games, that strikes me as not serving the student-athlete all that well. They like the game enough to play it at D3, let the kids play some more ballgames.

jknezek

Quote from: Caz Bombers on January 28, 2020, 09:56:39 PM
Division I softball plays 56 games, and before that limit was imposed in 2009, some warm weather schools would play up to 65 games before they even got to NCAA regionals. That was a little much.

40 games isn't very many at all and most teams up here don't even bother scheduling 40 anymore since it's expensive and they know they won't get the OOC games in anyway. When a program gets its schedule pared down to basically nothing but "spring training" and conference games, that strikes me as not serving the student-athlete all that well. They like the game enough to play it at D3, let the kids play some more ballgames.

I don't think D1 is a valid comparison for DIII. Again, what other DIII sport plays 40 games? I'm just confused, for example, on how 20 soccer games is enough but 40 softball isn't? That's a ton of time spent travelling even if a pile are double headers.

You want to shift the season by a couple weeks? I'm ok with that. Fall sports start 3 weeks (roughly) early. I could see shifting the tournament to start late May and end early June, so the season ends 3 weeks, roughly, after spring semester ends. Athletes might miss graduation, but that happens. But I just don't see the argument that "only" having 40 games is shafting softball athletes.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

FYI - the real argument is that teams who can't get close enough to 40 games are at a disadvantage to those who can easily get to 40 (better weather) because their resumes look better to the national committee. Getting everyone on the same level has been discussed a lot.

But don't think that double-headers are no big deal and 40 games isn't either. Remember, with a double-header the teams are on the field no later than 90 minutes prior to first pitch for all the warm-ups, hitting, etc. that is done. Then the games are played - than can take six hours depending on many things - and then the trip home for those who are traveling.

So those days are much longer for student-athletes than almost all other sports.
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Pat Coleman

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 28, 2020, 09:55:11 PM
Teams don't tend to play nothing but double-headers. That usually is a conference thing. It usually equates to about 28+ game dates. The trickier part being that they consolidate into a small period of time ... near the end of semesters ... which makes no sense to me when it comes to being a student.

My observation is that baseball is like this -- not at all always doubleheaders, but softball is for all intents and purposes always two games. A sampling:

https://www.catholicathletics.com/sports/sball/2019-20/schedule
https://gomessiah.com/sports/softball/schedule/2020
https://athletics.augsburg.edu/sports/softball/schedule/2020
https://www.chapmanathletics.com/sports/sball/2019-20/schedule
https://www.keeneowls.com/sports/sball/2019-20/schedule
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Interesting ... though, I also may be getting some games that are make-ups in my head. Crazy as it sounds ... I've called many a solo game.

Though, I just checked my schedule and there are a lot of DHs. Maybe there was a change I missed.
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Gregory Sager

#24
I can't speak for any other programs, but, aside from the annual spring trip to Florida (where they typically play two different opponents every game day while they're down there) North Park softball teams have only played doubleheaders going all the way back through 2008, with two exceptions. In 2010 against Concordia (IL) and again in 2016 against Kalamazoo the Vikings only played single games ... and in both cases that was because the nightcap of the scheduled doubleheader was suspended by rain before it became an official game, and the suspended game was never finished and thus disappeared from the books.

I rarely even bother looking at the schedule once I have the game date and the opponent marked on my personal calendar, because I automatically assume that I'm going to be calling a doubleheader if it's softball. For baseball, on the other hand, I always check online to see if it's a single game or a doubleheader.
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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 29, 2020, 12:24:46 PM
I can't speak for any other programs, but, aside from the annual spring trip to Florida (where they typically play two different opponents every game day while they're down there) North Park softball teams have only played doubleheaders going all the way back through 2008, with two exceptions. In 2010 against Concordia (IL) and again in 2016 against Kalamazoo the Vikings only played single games ... and in both cases that was because the nightcap of the scheduled doubleheader was suspended by rain before it became an official game, and the suspended game was never finished and thus disappeared from the books.

I rarely even bother looking at the schedule once I have the game date and the opponent marked on my personal calendar, because I automatically assume that I'm going to be calling a doubleheader if it's softball. For baseball, on the other hand, I always check online to see if it's a single game or a doubleheader.

Ha. My experience with baseball is identical to yours. Wait, how many games today? Crap ... two ... didn't plan on that. LOL Last year with a bad back, I actually had to back out of a few games because of their schedule.

I haven't called a lot of softball in the last few years - it was a few years ago when I called more (and produced more, I should add, at another school) and I felt there were more single-games. I always had to check the schedule. Maybe there was just a change in the area. Who knows. I could also be getting ... old.
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smedindy

#26
CWU plays either doubleheaders, or large tournaments (D2 softball - they have huge events like the Desert Stinger in Vegas and the Tournament of Champions in Turlock, CA where they play 5 or 6 games in three days). I looked at Wabash's baseball schedule and they have a February 29th (!) event in Westfield, IN with Wittenberg and three other teams. They then play seven games in Arizona (including a DH), then only five single games (one of them part of a five game set with Hanover and the others with local-ish teams like Franklin and Rose Hulman) and the rest double headers. The NCAC has always tended to DHs for conference games since they stopped using divisions. When they had divisions, sometimes they played three game sets with a DH and a single game.

To me the number of games isn't that great. The 40 games is probably a better test for a team since you have to utilize your pitching staff. It's a good test of team depth. Plus, the nature of baseball and softball is such that there's more randomness in a single game result. Doubleheaders for conference games is also the best test since you can't just use one or two pitchers.

It IS a long season, mainly because the games are normally on weekends. For schools using quarters it does take place over two quarters.

I checked a couple of other softball schedules in D3 - all Dhs. The SCIAC seems to play DHs + a single game. Friday at one place and a Saturday DH at the other.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

I went to college in Boston - it felt like the baseball/softball teams would play any and every game they could get in.  When you go weeks, sometimes, without proper weather, I feel like they'd play three in one day if the opponents were down to do it.  I wasn't super connected to the baseball team, but I do remember them fielding grounders in the gym after midnight through the end of basketball season.  It never seemed like fair competition with schools in SoCal.
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justafan12

"They like the game enough to play it at D3, let the kids play some more ballgames."

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!  My comment regarding 40 games was comparing it to D1 and D2 who play 50 or more games, not other sports.  I don't see why the limit at D3.  Does the NCAA think the SA can't  handle more games?  Can SA in D3 not balance their academics better than the other divisions.  Sorry I just don't see why the difference.  Maybe its a budgeting thing.

Several years ago, the ASC conference went to 33 conference games so that left only 7 games against non conference teams.  Most teams first or second series of the year was a conference series.  Not much of a preseason.  They have since split into 2 divisions making room for more non conference games.


Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Your rhetorical question is exactly the answer ... DIII presidents don't want the students primarily focused on academics. Athletics is a respected aspect of it, but they are NOT going to allow more games (and there has been talks about cuts) especially in sports like baseball and softball.

Comparing to DI and DII are not relevant - by a long shot.
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