MBB: Landmark Conference

Started by Dave 'd-mac' McHugh, February 20, 2007, 07:23:47 PM

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Matt Letourneau

Quote from: ronk on February 24, 2008, 01:15:34 AM
    I agree-we'll just have to find out which one that is.

Well, here they are:

Jason Banzhof, Catholic:  12.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, .556 fg%, (.382 3 point), .752 ft%, .9 apg
Zach Ashworth, Scranton: 10.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, .433 fg% (.403 3 point). .680 ft%, 1.4 apg

According to Landmark Conference leader statistics:
Banzhof ranks (overall/freshman): #10 in ppg (#1 freshman), #6 rpg (#1 freshman), #2 field goal percentage (#1 freshman), #8 field goal percentage (#1 freshman), #2 offensive rebounds (#1 freshman), #7 defensive rebounds (#2 freshman), #27 minutes per game (#5 freshman).

Ashworth ranks: #12 in ppg (#2 freshman), #14 free throw percentage (#2 freshman), #8 steals per game (#2 freshman), #7 3 point percentage (#1 freshman), #15 minutes per game (#2 freshman).  He does not appear on the leaderboard in rebounds, field goal percentage.


Sorry, ronk--I think this is a slam dunk.  You have a kid who is the #1 ranked freshman in 5 categories, including the biggies--points, field goal percentage, and rebounds.  He's actually widened the gap in ppg and its now nearly 2.  He shoots for a much higher percent and he's one of the leading rebounders in the entire league.

Ashworth only beats him in 3 point percentage--but Banzhaf is still shooting a respectable number, and assists--but 1.4 apg frankly is not that impressive for a guard, and not in the top 15 in the league.

Jason Banzhaf SHOULD be the Landmark Rookie of the Year.

naismith

Quote from: Matt Letourneau on February 24, 2008, 12:48:03 AM
Well, lets total them up tomorrow and see where we are at. 

Ashworth certainly had a very good year...but, you have to differentiate between the two somehow, and to me, the guy with consistently better numbers should win. 

Matt, if that were the Cold Case, then Stephon Marbury could be considered a top 5 pg in NBA history.;

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html

Add those assists to his 19.7 ppg and he places behind the Big O as one of the highest scoring pg's. ..
Add pts and assists and Magic moves above Starbury along with Isiah.
Still places him top 5!!

Point in fact, most of us including myself don't believe Starbury is a top 20 pg nonetheless a top 5 all time.

Stats are not the whole story. Figures lie and liars figure so they say.

What intangibles do these players bring to the floor. Did they excel in big moments in big games? Do they make the players around them better?
Are they selfish? How well do they play defense? Do they lose their cool or are they poised?

To me, 'value' is more than a box score.

Enuff on that subject.

Wish the Royals well in the playoffs. I really thought  this team was NCAA bound pre-season. Have followed them so am familiar with the injury issues etc.
I am thinking they are healthy now and ready to go. 

Naismith

cold_case

Quote from: Matt Letourneau on February 24, 2008, 08:46:20 AMAshworth only beats him in 3 point percentage--but Banzhaf is still shooting a respectable number, and assists--but 1.4 apg frankly is not that impressive for a guard, and not in the top 15 in the league.Jason Banzhaf SHOULD be the Landmark Rookie of the Year.

Colonel Matt, your rose colored Catholic glasses have allowed your biasness to flow through once again. Let's see. You left out the only two items that matter: Pressure and importance.
How many pressure shots did Banzof put up? Considering Catholic was 10-15, the answer is very few. Nobody takes a sub-500 team seriously, especially when they were 1-7 against the top four teams in the conference.
In contrast, Ashworth was more important to his team and played in a boat load of key games most of the season. In fact, Scranton would not have made the playoffs if it weren't for him.
Stats are impressive but Banzof started and played a heck of a lot more minutes than Ashworth (another factor you accidentally left out). I'll take a player that comes up clutch in big games over anyone.
However, Banzof is quite a player, but not nearly the big-time performer like Ashworth.

Matt Letourneau

First of all, I didn't leave out minutes. 

Ashworth ranks: #12 in ppg (#2 freshman), #14 free throw percentage (#2 freshman), #8 steals per game (#2 freshman), #7 3 point percentage (#1 freshman), #15 minutes per game (#2 freshman).  He does not appear on the leaderboard in rebounds, field goal percentage.

I did not mention games started, but if I had, it would have been Banzhaf 22, Ashworth 12.  Banzhaf certainly played his share of minutes though--and the fact that Ashworth played more means that Banzhaf was also the more efficient, productive players.  In other words, Ashworth's scoring is partly a result of simply being out of the court more--and yet he still scored significantly less than Banzhaf.

Now, as for intangibles, a couple points.  First of all, as I understand it, this is not a "Most Valuable Rookie" award, its a "Rookie of the Year" award.  Traditionally, in all sports, that award goes to the best rookie, which I think the statistic clearly show was Jason.

Second, I would argue that Jason had a tougher job.  He played with a much weaker supporting cast.  There was nobody out there to make him better.  His job, as a forward, certainly is dependent on guards getting him the ball in a good position and setting him up for good shots.  Frankly, he didn't get much help in that regard--he had to do it himself.

Third, its not like Scranton is an absolute slam dunk tournament team.  For some reason, cold case thinks I have something against Scranton.  I don't.  I'm excited Scranton is in this league.  They're a great program.  But I'm hardly a hater for pointing out that they had a bit of a disappointing year this year.  They should have been better--and actually right now I do think they're playing the best basketball in the league.

But anyway, its a stretch to say that Ashworth has been consistently clutch on an elite team.  Scranton hasn't been at that level and they did lose some games they shouldn't have.  I certainly don't hold that against him at ALL, I'm only bringing it up because its being used as an argument for him.

Meanwhile, if you look at Banzhaf, I can say the same thing--Catholic would have not won the games it did with him.   They didn't win as many games as Scranton did, no, but he was their leading scorer in the last 7 games in a row and in 11 games total.

In other words--when teams play Catholic, at this point, the opposing team knows it has to shut down Jason Banzhaf.  He's the guy they key on.  That is not the case for Scranton...Ashworth is not "the guy." 

Good debate.

NEPAFAN

Wow.  Matt I have to admire you enthusiasm for a team that went 4-10 in the conference. Now can we give it a rest? I see enough campaign ads on TV. Give Banzhof the  Rookie of the Year, I am sure Ashworth would rather be where he is right now, in the playoffs, then the recipient of the Rookie of the Year

No one said that Scranton is a slam dunk tournament team. But they put up an excellent all around effort and beat Moravian in their building, where they had been undefeated. Nothing but good things to say about the Scranton effort in Bethlehem on Saturday night. I did listen to Dean Corwin, rather than Gordan  Mann, but I hope he doesn't hold that against me.


The Royals go right back to Moravian on Weds at 7pm for a repeat of Saturday's game, and Juniata at Sus, for a repeat of their game Saturday. Lets savior this win and break down the  playoffs later.
A school without football is in danger of deteriorating into a medieval study hall.
Vince Lombardi

cold_case

Quote from: NEPAFAN on February 24, 2008, 12:02:05 PMI did listen to Dean Corwin, rather than Gordan  Mann, but I hope he doesn't hold that against me.

I started listening to the Scranton announcers but switched to Gordon "Manfred" Mann. Scranton play-by-play man, Dean Corwin is very good, but I couldn't take Harry Dammer. Geez, listening to him is like finger nails scratching on the blackboard. Well, maybe worse.
I'm going down on Wednesday, first Royal road trip since I worked the Scranton bombing run at Wilkes last year. :)

Matt Letourneau

Hey, you guys challenged me, what'd you want me to do?  I fight for my guys.  ;D  And frankly, I had a better case.

For what its worth, I think Scranton will win the conference tournament.   I hope whoever does gets a bid.

TheGrove

Quote from: Matt Letourneau on February 24, 2008, 12:18:06 PM
For what its worth, I think Scranton will win the conference tournament.   I hope whoever does gets a bid.

I'm a little biased, but why count out Susquehanna? They have the #1 seed and will have home-court as fas as they go. And last night they showed they can win without Josh Robinson.

Although I'd rather be an underdog.  :)

Last night was a crazy game. Juniata traveled well and the atmosphere in O.W. Houts was the rowdiest it's been all year. I hope our kids come back out Wednesday, and that Juniata's stay home to watch the women's team!  :)

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Despite their win without Josh Robinson - that is the reason I wouldn't bet on Susquehanna winning the conference tournament. My "money" is on Scranton as well. They seem to be playing the best basketball at this time in the season.

As for the conference getting a Pool B bid... doubtful. Moravian has the least number of regional losses with seven then any other team in the conference. That is just too many losses to be considered for the tournament, even if Moravian rights the ship and wins the tournament.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

saratoga

Matt: I too appreciate your devotion to Jason...let's let the coaches decide as I'm quite sure they have a much finer appreciation for the total picture of what each of these kids has done. In all honesty...I think there is far less pressure on any player playing in games that have little or no playoff implications than there is on a player whose team needs almost every possesion to go their way. Trust me, Ashworth played his role to near perfection last night in a game the Royals had to have if the quest is to continue. All things considered...NEPAFAN is right on the money.. Zach could probably give two cents about the award as long as the Royals keep playing. And, should they continue to play as they did last evening, I think regardless of who they play or where they play...they are going to present a challenge. Three things jump out at me from the game last night...first, the Royals established the tempo from the start...went inside/out & the kids continue to be on fire from the outside & they played determined & passionate defense for a full game. At one point in the second half Scranton was actually up 31 points against a team that had not lost at home, was playing before a Senior night crowd & had they won, would have been the regular season champs. Not a bad nights work. Of course, everything changes now in the second season...one bad game can be erased, one great game can be followed by a, "what kids forgot to get off the bus" moment & a missed free-throw here & there in the first half can make all the difference in the world by the time the final horn sounds. If the Royals can duplicate even 70% of last night game...they win. However, should they take the court & think it's going to be a cake walk & that Moravian...still licking its wounds will just roll over & die for them...well, then the uniforms get packed away prematurely yet again.

cold_case

'toga, did you ever hear of paragraphs??

NEPAFAN

Agree with Saratoga. Scranton cannot go back to Moravian and think they can walk all over the Greyhounds again. Moravian will have a chip on their shoulder after last night's loss and will come out with a much better effort on Weds at 7.

If I am a Scranton coach my Mantra is to forget about last night's score and focus on maintaining  intensity and hustle. I also repeat whatever I told the kids Friday night and Saturday morning!

Let's worry about Pool B after the Playoffs, the committee always throws in some curveballs so it will be something to look out for.

C_C,


I can take Dammer when they Royals are winning, it is another story when they are losing! ;D
A school without football is in danger of deteriorating into a medieval study hall.
Vince Lombardi

ronk

   I enjoy listening to Prof Harry analyze the games; I get a better sense from him on how the Royals are doing separate  from the score because he's more critical, tells why things work or don't, when the team is lacking in effort, when refs are out of position in making calls or make a call that belongs to one of the other refs.

Nepa,
    You have to worry about pool B from the 1st game of the year; everyone's important; you have to eliminate reasons for the committee to choose someone else over you. Dean Corwin said last nite during the ladies' game that in comparison to Moravian, the royals had nothing to play for- they would be hosting the 4 seed regardless in the playoffs this week. He overlooked the importance of the game in the pool B selection process.   

saratoga

CC: You mean a subdivision of written composition that consists of one or more sentences, deals with a particular point or gives the words or thoughts of one speaker, and begins on a new, usually indented line??? No.  ;)

Matt Letourneau

While I get the point, I think there's a pretty fair amount of pressure on any freshman who is given a starting job early and basically has to be "the guy" for a division 3 team.  These kids come into the season totally unproven and unknown.   They fight for playing time and respect.   In that situation, to have a kid that is in the top 10 in their conference in scoring as a freshman, field goal percentage and rebounds is pretty special.


D-Mac makes a pretty fair point...its probably a stretch for any team to get in this year.

Any thoughts from the game last night, Dave?