FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:04:00 AM

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kiko

Question for Gregory on something I'm curious about:  you feel there's a case to say North Park has passed Carthage in the conference football pecking order.  Not clear-cut, but a case.  And I can see that case because from my perspective Carthage is somewhat adrift these days.  I suspect that a Viking win this year would have made this case more definitive.  (My words and not yours.)

My question: had NPU made it two straight against Augie, would you feel the same way there?  I know my answer to this but am curious as to yours.  In other words, what factors, beyond longitudinal H2H results, drive your perspective on the relative power rankings, and to what extent does your position on the escalator correlate with results on the field?

Mr. Ypsi

THIS year IWU doesn't deserve to be above much of anyone.  Hopefully, they can recover to at least third next year.  Using a fourth string quarterback is not fun. :(

USee

Quote from: kiko on December 03, 2014, 10:24:09 PM
Quote from: USee on December 03, 2014, 05:24:48 PM
Well Carthage and Wheaton were a 7-2 game at half and it was the 4th quarter before the Thunder put them away so obviously I saw a different Carthage team than you did. NPU on the other hand was not competitive in the game vs Wheaton, thus my analysis.

I think we're all subject to some level of bias based on what we personally saw.  I see Elmhurst as a notch above Augie/North Park/Carthage -- certainly below IWU, but in my mind's eye there is separation between Elmhurst and the teams immediately above/below them,  But that's largely based on how much trouble North Central had putting them away at Langhorst this year.  I can easily see how the Carthage/Wheaton game might have a similar influence on your assessment.

I agree with this.  I wasn't trying to make a qualitative statement about NPU v Carthage ad I admit my limited data makes it difficult to assess.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: kiko on December 03, 2014, 10:24:09 PM
Quote from: USee on December 03, 2014, 05:24:48 PM
Well Carthage and Wheaton were a 7-2 game at half and it was the 4th quarter before the Thunder put them away so obviously I saw a different Carthage team than you did. NPU on the other hand was not competitive in the game vs Wheaton, thus my analysis.

I think we're all subject to some level of bias based on what we personally saw.  I see Elmhurst as a notch above Augie/North Park/Carthage -- certainly below IWU, but in my mind's eye there is separation between Elmhurst and the teams immediately above/below them,  But that's largely based on how much trouble North Central had putting them away at Langhorst this year.  I can easily see how the Carthage/Wheaton game might have a similar influence on your assessment.

I would agree with that. I think that the Elmhurst program is currently in a better position than Augie, North Park, and Carthage, and that it's a clear-cut distinction in terms of tiers. I think that the 'jays will be unanimously picked to finish ahead of the Red Men and the two sets of Vikings in the 2015 preseason poll.

Quote from: kiko on December 03, 2014, 10:33:55 PM
Question for Gregory on something I'm curious about:  you feel there's a case to say North Park has passed Carthage in the conference football pecking order.  Not clear-cut, but a case.  And I can see that case because from my perspective Carthage is somewhat adrift these days.  I suspect that a Viking win this year would have made this case more definitive.  (My words and not yours.)

I'm not clear on what you meant in that last sentence. North Park did beat Carthage this year -- and handily so, as I pointed out to USee.

Quote from: kiko on December 03, 2014, 10:33:55 PMMy question: had NPU made it two straight against Augie, would you feel the same way there?  I know my answer to this but am curious as to yours.  In other words, what factors, beyond longitudinal H2H results, drive your perspective on the relative power rankings, and to what extent does your position on the escalator correlate with results on the field?

I would say no, that a win by NPU on November 1 wouldn't have necessarily put the Park ahead of Augie in terms of the long-term pecking order of the league. The narrowness of what would've been (and should've been >:() a 27-26 NPU win at Ericson Stadium last month would have prevented me from thinking otherwise. I'd say that a lot of how I measure overall program strength is by current on-field results (the other factors being class-by-class assessment and whether the success on the field of one program over another spans multiple seasons), but in my book a close win decided late in the fourth quarter really isn't enough to be decisive in that respect. North Park beat Augustana by a score of 45-35 in 2013, and it was a competitive game throughout the full 60 minutes. A win on November 1 would've meant victories at Augie by NPU in consecutive seasons, but I won't say that together they would've proved that NPU was the better program at the moment, given the closeness of the two wins.

It's hard to forecast how NPU shapes up against Augie next season, based upon returnees. Augie has some nice returning players -- a couple of the NPU coaches and I were talking today about what a beast Augie sophomore LB Jack Asquini was against the Park -- but the Doggies will have to replace their entire defensive backfield from 2014. And I have to think that their ability to plug holes immediately with impact newbies is going to be severely hampered by the coaching change -- and we don't know yet if the presumably involuntary departure of Rob Cushman will cause player defections as well.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Augie's head men's soccer coach Brenton Joseph resigned today, less than 72 hours after Rob Cushman packed up his office. Is this a coincidence or a housecleaning, augiefan, Augie6, and other supporters of the navy blue and gold? Either way, Augie AD Mike Zapolski is going to be a very busy man for the near future.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

kiko

Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 04, 2014, 03:48:04 PM

I'm not clear on what you meant in that last sentence. North Park did beat Carthage this year -- and handily so, as I pointed out to USee.


I'm not sure what I meant either -- since I'd mentioned about two posts North of this one that NPU had beaten Carthage and Millikin in consecutive years.  At any rate, you answered my basic question, so thanks!

formerd3db

Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 04, 2014, 03:59:26 PM
Augie's head men's soccer coach Brenton Joseph resigned today, less than 72 hours after Rob Cushman packed up his office. Is this a coincidence or a housecleaning, augiefan, Augie6, and other supporters of the navy blue and gold? Either way, Augie AD Mike Zapolski is going to be a very busy man for the near future.

Gregory:

While on the topic of coaching positions (and since this is the off-season already for some of us ;D), I was curious as to what some of the requirements and general salary structure is at NPU and some of the CCIW schools are.  Most of our followers here I believe essentially know that for most DIII schools (and particularly the smaller ones) that there are usually only about 3-4 full time coaches with the rest of the staff being part-time paid or even volunteer assistants.  In our MIAA, for example, some schools like Hope, if you are hired on as a coach, you are required to teach at least one class, whereas at other schools like Alma, the full-time coaches are involved in coaching duties and recruiting full time and have no teaching responsibilities unless they want to do the latter.

Also, most of the assistant coaches in DIII that are part time do not get much compensation at all and, from what I've heard in general from other colleagues, that has a wide range throughout DIII depending on the school's budget for football.  Some may get $5,000-6,000 for the season, whereas at others, it may be as small as $500-1,000.  Even for the entry level coaches, such as graduate assistant positions, a full-time position in that category may only be $10,000 at some schools.  And finally, as to the teaching position salaries, what is the average in general for those coaches in your league as far as you know?  Thanks for your thoughts and information-I was just curious.
 
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Gregory Sager

Those are questions that are hard to answer, because I'm really not privy to the contractual and budgetary specifications of the athletic departments of the other seven CCIW schools. A lot of what I do know about them is probably outdated; e.g., when Carthage hired head football coach Tim Rucks away from North Park back in 1995, part of the lure was that Carthage AD Bob Bonn was able to offer Rucks one more full-time assistant than he had at North Park.

I'm not even sure how much of my info about my school is up-to-date, and as the broadcaster for five NPU sports and the P.A. announcer for two others I'm more or less adjunct staff for the school's athletic department. F'rinstance, I know that in the past the head coaches at North Park taught the coaching theory classes for their particular sports. I don't know if they do that anymore. I don't know if they have any teaching responsibilities anymore. Only one head coach at North Park, men's soccer head coach John Born, is a member of the faculty (he heads up the Sports Management concentration within NPU's School of Business and Non-Profit Management).

Doubling up on duties, whether in coaching or in some other aspect of the school's staff responsibilities, used to be the rule at CCIW schools. My impression is that coaches sometimes still double up, especially assistants, but not nearly as much as they used to. For example, when I worked in North Park's records office in the late '90s, there was always a football assistant coach working part-time in that office as well. The intramurals director was always a coach who was given this extra (extremely light) duty. Nowadays, all of the doubling up at NPU in which the double duty has to do with coaching more than one sport is in sports in which there's a certain logic to the multiple responsibilities. F'rinstance, the men's head golf coach, Mike Drake, is also the women's head golf coach. The men's head track & field coach, Geoff Masanet, is also the women's head track & field coach. His assistant is Steve Imig, who is the head coach for both the men's and women's cross-country teams, and, in turn, Masanet is Imig's assistant for the cross-country teams -- so, between them, they manage the school's six varsity teams in the running sports (Masanet also has three part-time assistants to help coach specialty events within track & field).

NPU has several different graduate programs, which a lot of D3 schools don't have, and over the past ten years the North Park athletic department has used the grad programs to great advantage by hiring graduate assistants. Eight different sports at North Park (baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, men's soccer, women's soccer, women's tennis, women's rowing, and football) currently have GAs as a part of the coaching staff, as does the athletic training staff and the sports information staff. They're limited in the amount of time that they can offer to the program because of their classwork, but they're also a cheap, energetic, and highly useful labor force for the athletic department. One of them, women's volleyball GA Natalie Dietz, was just hired to be the new head coach of NPU's volleyball program.

In terms of dollars and cents ... sorry, I can't help you with any budgetary or salary facts.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Langhorst_Ghost

FormerD3Db - I can definitely take a run at answering your questions, certainly first hand at EC but also around the league a little bit as well...just PM me more specifics - as this probably best kept in out of the public forum.
It's a Great Day to be a Jay!

USee

The North and West Region Finals are tomorrow and I am not entirely sure what to expect. Triple Take seems to follow the favorites and indicate an "expected" pattern of wins by the big names. After having watched JCU last weekend I have to say I was expecting a little more. I knew they were good and I knew their defense was very good but I was unimpressed with their offense and very surprised by how well Wheaton matched up and controlled their high powered offense. The common interpretation of that game is that Wheaton is probably better than most thought. I believe that is in part true, but I am also wondering if it's because the OAC isn't as good as everybody gives them credit for. We saw indications of that in the Stagg last year when UMU wasn't very competitive for the first time in forever. At this point I expect Mt Union to win and end up in the Stagg but it wouldn't surprise me to see the winner of the North lose in the Semis.

Separately I am also very interested in the UWW v Wartburg game tomorrow. I expect a close game through 3 quarters with the Warhawks pulling away to a comfortable win late but I have a weird hunch, based on literally nothing, that Wartburg may win the game. So I am going with it and calling for the upset in Janesville tomorrow.

Wartburg 24
UWW 17

Mt Union 21
JCU 17


USee

#31645
Congratulations to the CCIW players who earned D3.com All-Region awards today:

Wheaton:

Mike Swider, Coach of the Year

1st team
Spencer Clarke, SR, Center
Adam Dansdill, Jr, LB

2nd Team:
Matt Snebold, Jr, OT
Dan Barnhardt, Sr, G
Josh Aldrin, Jr, DT
Logan McRae, Jr, DE

3rd Team:
Mikey Swider, Jr, LB
Michael Risher, Sr, DB

North Central:

2nd Team:
Peter Sorensen, SR, WR
Eric Knaperek, Jr, G

Elmhurst:

1st Team:
Josh Williams, Jr, RB
Garrett Claxon, Jr, TE

IWU:

1st Team:
Matt Kussmann, SR, P

2nd Team:
Sean Garvery, So, LB


formerd3db

Quote from: Langhorst_Ghost on December 05, 2014, 05:51:10 PM
FormerD3Db - I can definitely take a run at answering your questions, certainly first hand at EC but also around the league a little bit as well...just PM me more specifics - as this probably best kept in out of the public forum.

Thanks for your offer.  I  haven't been ignoring you, so please don't think that.  Although I've posted on here after that one, I inadvertently forgot to get back you.  Totally understand and agree with keeping the more specifics of this topic out of the public forum.  I will PM you. 
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

formerd3db

Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 05, 2014, 04:55:52 PM
Those are questions that are hard to answer, because I'm really not privy to the contractual and budgetary specifications of the athletic departments of the other seven CCIW schools. A lot of what I do know about them is probably outdated; e.g., when Carthage hired head football coach Tim Rucks away from North Park back in 1995, part of the lure was that Carthage AD Bob Bonn was able to offer Rucks one more full-time assistant than he had at North Park.

I'm not even sure how much of my info about my school is up-to-date, and as the broadcaster for five NPU sports and the P.A. announcer for two others I'm more or less adjunct staff for the school's athletic department. F'rinstance, I know that in the past the head coaches at North Park taught the coaching theory classes for their particular sports. I don't know if they do that anymore. I don't know if they have any teaching responsibilities anymore. Only one head coach at North Park, men's soccer head coach John Born, is a member of the faculty (he heads up the Sports Management concentration within NPU's School of Business and Non-Profit Management).

Doubling up on duties, whether in coaching or in some other aspect of the school's staff responsibilities, used to be the rule at CCIW schools. My impression is that coaches sometimes still double up, especially assistants, but not nearly as much as they used to. For example, when I worked in North Park's records office in the late '90s, there was always a football assistant coach working part-time in that office as well. The intramurals director was always a coach who was given this extra (extremely light) duty. Nowadays, all of the doubling up at NPU in which the double duty has to do with coaching more than one sport is in sports in which there's a certain logic to the multiple responsibilities. F'rinstance, the men's head golf coach, Mike Drake, is also the women's head golf coach. The men's head track & field coach, Geoff Masanet, is also the women's head track & field coach. His assistant is Steve Imig, who is the head coach for both the men's and women's cross-country teams, and, in turn, Masanet is Imig's assistant for the cross-country teams -- so, between them, they manage the school's six varsity teams in the running sports (Masanet also has three part-time assistants to help coach specialty events within track & field).

NPU has several different graduate programs, which a lot of D3 schools don't have, and over the past ten years the North Park athletic department has used the grad programs to great advantage by hiring graduate assistants. Eight different sports at North Park (baseball, men's basketball, women's basketball, men's soccer, women's soccer, women's tennis, women's rowing, and football) currently have GAs as a part of the coaching staff, as does the athletic training staff and the sports information staff. They're limited in the amount of time that they can offer to the program because of their classwork, but they're also a cheap, energetic, and highly useful labor force for the athletic department. One of them, women's volleyball GA Natalie Dietz, was just hired to be the new head coach of NPU's volleyball program.

In terms of dollars and cents ... sorry, I can't help you with any budgetary or salary facts.

Thank you to you also for your good reply and sharing what you what you know in general about the topic in question.  Much appreciated and I agree.  Many of the schools I know about have had to do the same type of things.

"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Titan Q

Quote from: USee on December 08, 2014, 02:20:55 PM
Congratulations to the CCIW players who earned D3.com All-Region awards today:


IWU:

2nd Team:
Sean Garvery, So, LB
Matt Kussmann, SR, P

I think Kussman is 1st team.

USee

Quote from: Titan Q on December 09, 2014, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: USee on December 08, 2014, 02:20:55 PM
Congratulations to the CCIW players who earned D3.com All-Region awards today:


IWU:

2nd Team:
Sean Garvery, So, LB
Matt Kussmann, SR, P

Indeed he was. Apologies for the mistake (now corrected).

I think Kussman is 1st team.