D3 vs. D1/D2/NAIA/NCCAA

Started by Gregory Sager, February 02, 2005, 02:47:18 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Coach C

#45
Gang -

I did not think that this would be a popular position, but heck, that has never stopped me before.  Let's think about this ... you get to 'play your heart out' basically knowing that winning or losing isn't important in the game. 

Well guys, that isnt what basketball or life are about.  Yeah, it's how you play the game and all, but in the end we DO keep score in these games.  We don't say at the end of the year "Well Bard plays really hard, so let's give them a Pool C bid over Augustana."

As for recruiting ... ehhh I doubt it.  I have had kids say that they come because the program wins.  I have had kids say that they come becasue the academics are good.  i have had kids say that they come becasue they think they will get more playing time.  I have had kids say that they come becasue of a strong national travel schedule.   I have NEVER heard a kid say that he went somewhere becasue they play a D1 exhibition game.

As for playing for the money, this makes us mercenaries.  It's what is wrong with the D1 game and they are making us dirty by close contact.  Do you want to be seen as Marathon Oil?  Becasue that is all you really are to the D1 program in all but the most unusual situations.

I know it feels good to see your team or your son on the ESPN crawl, but the D1 schools are using us.  They want a live practice under true game conditions and we are giving up a game that could otherwise enhance the competition within D3.  How much do we really get out of it?  You cant really run your system.  you cant play you nomal rotations.  You learn nothing about how your stuff works because let's face it, unless you are playing a HORRIBLE D1 program, they are still way better than anyone we are going to see most years.

As for reputation ... nope not really.  Who but the most dedicated among us remember Princeton almost losing to a D1 a few years back.  With all due respect, how obscure is the D1 vs. D3 record?  Usually all a D1 loss signifies is that the team was Prarie View A&M or Loyola  or that they had 5 players suspended.

We should not be letting ourselves get used this way.  If it's an exhibition, why does it cont against our 25?  Why isn't it a scrimmage?  Because then the D1 could not charge admission for it or broadcast it.  Face it, we are dirtier every time we associate with the 'big boys.'

Like I said, I know that it won't be a popular position, but let's think about it.  We are good enough without them.

C

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Coach C on November 03, 2005, 03:03:12 PM
Face it, we are dirtier every tim we assocate with the 'big boys.'

There is a lot to be said for that, true, but I would still want our kids to have a shot to enjoy the atmosphere for one night.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Coach, I think you inadvertantly made my point.

Quote from: Coach C on November 03, 2005, 03:03:12 PM
  You cant really run your system.  you cant play you nomal rotations.  You learn nothing about how your stuff works

Is a d1 game a good idea for the majority of d3?  Probably not.  You're right, those teams could never run their system or rotations against a d1 team, even a poor one.  However, for the top 15 or so programs in d3, their systems and rotations can generally stand up to a pre-season exhibition effort from even the best d1 schools.

Quote from: Coach C on November 03, 2005, 03:03:12 PM
let's face it, unless you are playing a HORRIBLE D1 program, they are still way better than anyone we are going to see most years.

I also have to respectfully disagree about this point.  Certainly during the regular season, no solid d1 team would ruin their schedule strength and risk a poor showing by scheduling a top d3 team, but as an exhibition it becomes a chance to test your teams against a well-disciplined crew.  I highly doubt that a HORRIBLE D1 program would be superior to IWU.  I'm sure there are a couple dozen programs that could not top the Titans this season.  The gap from top 5 d3 to bottom 20 d1 is not nearly as far as people believe.

Quote from: Coach C on November 03, 2005, 03:03:12 PM
With all due respect, how obscure is the D1 vs. D3 record? 

Very.  But as soon as a d3 school (like IWU) give a big-time school (Illinois) a scare or beats a mid-major team (admittedly that would be a long-shot upset), it will be big news.  Maybe to you, the chance isn't worth the costs and I totally respect that opinion.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly,

Quote from: Coach C on November 03, 2005, 03:03:12 PM
we are giving up a game that could otherwise enhance the competition within D3.  How much do we really get out of it? 

Honestly, that game is not going to enhance the d3 competition.  No one is going to travel any distance for a d3 scrimmage and a game against an inferior team is not going to give an experienced team anything new.

After all that is said.  Sure, it's really dumb that it counts on the 25 (although it doesn't count as a game for d1, so I'm not sure your reasoning is right, Pat will have to fill me in on that one).  That should be changed.

You're also right that its a dumb idea for a majority of d3 programs.  If you don't have a top 15 squad, don't think about it.  If your top 15 squad is all sophomores with no starting experience, forget it.  There might be five or six teams each year that would benefit from it, like IWU this year.  For those teams, I say they have to go for it.  I don't see a whole lot of downside.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Flying Dutch Fan

I gotta agree with the coach, even though I understand the thrill of those games, and the money involved (and I would love to be reading about a big IWU win tonight).  

We are all always bragging about how DIII has the only true scholar-athletes (and we point out that scholar is first), yet we come running when the big boys wave money in our face.  I think that's a bit hypocritical - IMHO.

2016, 2020, 2022 MIAA Pick 'Em Champion

"Sports are kind of like passion and that's temporary in many cases, but academics - that's like true love and that's enduring." 
John Wooden

"Blame FDF.  That's the default.  Always blame FDF."
goodknight

Pat Coleman

Hey folks, just a heads-up, I thought this issue was important enough that I asked Coach C to write it up for the Daily Dose, so if you like, we can have this discussion on the blog, out on the front page.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Coach C


Just Bill

This summer I got to meet Nick Bennett from UW-Stevens Point.  Despite having won two national titles and being named all-conference and all that other stuff, he said the coolest thing he did in his career was play Marquette at the Bradley Center.

I think that says a lot.
"That seems silly and pointless..." - Hoops Fan

The first and still most accurate description of the D3 Championship BeltTM thread.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Here, here.  A big time game against a big time team on a big stage would be an amazing incentive for me, even if it had no bearing on my record.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

hopefan

results vs D1 through 1st weekend of exhibition games...  have I missed any?

11/1/2005   A   Ripon   MWC-MW-D3   81   H   UW Green Bay   D1   97
11/3/2005   A   Blackburn   SLIAC-MW-D3   38   H   Western Illinois   D1   80
11/3/2005   A   Illinois Wesleyan   CCIW-MW-D3   60   H   Illinois   D1   82
11/3/2005   A   Occidental   SCAIAC-West-D3   38   H   Utah St   D1   66
11/5/2005   A   Whitman   NWC-West-D3   54   H   Utah      D1   77
11/5/2005   A   Puget SoundNWC-West-D3   90   H   San Jose   D1   107
11/5/2005   A   DePauw   SCAC-South-D3   67   H   Evansville   D1   76
11/5/2005   A   UW River Falls   WIAC-West-D3   52   H   Wisconsin   D1   79
11/5/2005   A   Capital   OAC-GL-D3   63   H   Valparaiso   D1   69
The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!

cmufan

Additional D3 matchup versus a D1 foe. December 28.  Carnegie Mellon at Princeton.

smedindy

Now, is Western Illinois big time? San Jose St.? How many people do they get for those games?

Gregory Sager

Western Illinois is most certainly not "big time". They play in the lowly Mid-Continent Conference, and the school itself is much more of a football school than a basketball school (there have been a number of Leathernecks who've played in the NFL in recent years). But WIU was a decent (for them) 11-17 last season, and they only lost to Indiana by five at Assembly Hall in Bloomington.

San Jose State was 6-23 last year, and they haven't had a winning season in five years. But they play in the moderately strong Western Athletic Conference.

It looks as though SJSU draws about 1,500 to 2,000 per regular season game. There were 650 attendees listed for the scrimmage against Puget Sound. Western Illinois averaged 1,425 last season, and drew 725 for the scrimmage against Blackburn.

The game that really impressed me was the Capital/Valparaiso game. Valpo is traditionally the strongest program in the Mid-Continent and a legendary NCAA cinderella, and yet Capital had an 11-point advantage on the big boys at one point and didn't relinquish the lead for good until there were less than four minutes left to play.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

smedindy

Denison is playing Akron on December 7 and Kenyon (KENYON!) is playing Wright State in January.

Greg - that was mostly rhetorical on my part, as I don't think that these exhibitions are 'big time' for the most part, nor recruiting carrots.

Last year I had Western Illinois 246th and San Jose State 274th in my D-1 power rankings.

hopefan

Greg, Smed, you both misspeak--Greg you refer to the games as scrimmages.. those that I mentioned are exhibition games, not scrimmages... I know you know the differences.   
Smed, I have only listed the games leading up to Nov 18th.  The games prior to the 18th are exhibition games, but Count against the D3 team's 25 game limit  -  they do not count as a win or loss, nor do stats count.  There are a large number of games vs D1 teams on and after Nov 18th that are regular season games and count in the won-loss record.  It seems a bit strange, but that's the way it is... ie if IWU runs the table, they are undefeated.. the loss to Illinois does not count.  Had that game been played after the 18th, it would have been a regular season game and been a loss for IWU.
   Of course the difference between a scrimmage and the exhibition games is huge--scrimmages are informal, last as long as the coaches want them to, and rarely have a publicized score - there is no paid crowd, and it usually is unadvertised because the coaches treat it as an upgraded practice session.   Totally different from the exhibition games, which are played under formal game conditions, with paid crowds.  As someone else said, in some situations, D3 teams are taking the place of Athletes In Action or other similar AllStar teams.
The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!

smedindy

How did I mis-speak? I was just listing some other games that I just found out about (I know there are more, but KENYON, fer cripes sake...). I know the difference between exhibitions and scrimmages and have posted that I think it's unfair that these count against a D-3 team's limit when it doesn't count against a D-1 team's limit .