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Post Patterns (Division III football) => General football => Topic started by: usee on October 20, 2010, 04:26:33 pm

Title: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 20, 2010, 04:26:33 pm
Coming soon. 20+ of the board regulars will be submitting their poll weekly and the results will be posted here for debate and pontification. Bleedpurple from the WIAC board is coordinating and results will be posted on his blog (www.uwwfootball.blogspot.com) as well as here on the message boards.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 20, 2010, 05:51:06 pm
The first D3 Top 25 Fan Poll is due to be released Thursday morning, October 21!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Old IC Voice on October 21, 2010, 08:48:32 am
First poll is up, and I'll tell you, it was fun putting my ballot together.

The thing that sticks out to me is Linfield at #11. I had them, Pacific Lutheran, and Cal Lutheran much closer-together, and while I won't readily disclose where I put each unless other pollsters do the same, I think #11's a little high for a team that has a loss to a team lower in the top-25.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CardinalAlum on October 21, 2010, 09:25:38 am
I was surprised at Wartburg, both in the D3football poll and especially this one. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 21, 2010, 09:51:26 am
D3 Top 25 Fan Poll


Team        Pts
1. UW-Whitewater (16)   400
2. Mount Union     381
3. Wesley       361
4. St. Thomas      346
5. North Central     332
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor    328
7. Delaware Valley     262
8. Wittenberg      261
9. Hardin-Simmons    252
10. Ohio Northern     240
11. Linfield       218
12. Thomas More     216
13. Wartburg      213
14. Wheaton      187
15. Montclair St.     183
16. Trine       171
17. St. John Fisher     164
18. Bethel       136
19. Coe        123
20. Central       99
21. Pacific Lutheran    88
22. Hampden-Sydney    85
23. Cal Lutheran     46
24. Ursinas       36
25. Case Western Reserve   17


Also Receiving Votes:
Wabash (15), Franklin (12), Rowan (12), Willamette (12), Illinois Wesleyan (6), Cortland State (6), Augustana (5), Depauw (4)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 11:06:13 am
I was surprised at Wartburg, both in the D3football poll and especially this one. 

I will say Wartburg slid up my ballot simply because I couldn't find anyone to put ahead of them. I have them at #17. My poll is pretty close to what is posted here. Only 2 teams are in my poll that did not end up in the top 25. I have Franklin and Wabash instead of Central and Cal Lutheran.  The main outlier for me was I have Trine in my top ten. I think they get a bum rap for playing in the MIAA (which has been atrocious as a conference lateley) but I beleive they will breeze through that league and make some noise in the playoffs. I also have Bethel ranked higher in my poll (#10) than is listed here. I just can't justify much separation with St Thomas (my #6) and Bethel, which will sort itself out Saturday.  My other outliers (albeit by only 3-4 spots) are Montclair St (I have them 3 spots higher at #12) and Thomas More (I have them at #15)

I had a hard time with Linfield. I had them lower but as I looked at them vs other teams they kept getting better. I look at week 1 games on the road differently and their loss to Cal Lutheran in week 1 (the first game for both teams) doesn't mean as much to me if they had the same loss later in the season. I think it is really tough to go on a long road trip to start the season against good competition. The only thing tougher is playing on the road in your first game against a team that has 1 game under their belt already.

Teams that didnt' make my ballot but were next in line were Central and Depauw.

This is a fun excercise. I went through the kickoff preview of each team and created a spreadsheet with everyones results, def and off rankings as well as schedule. I am sure I will learn more each week, particularly about those teams not in my region (north).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 21, 2010, 11:11:36 am
IMHO, once you get past #1, it's open for discussion.  Mount is a clear #2 in most people's mind (but not mine) because of history.  The last time they failed to reach the Semi-Finals was 1994 and even that year was a 34-33 loss on the road to the eventual champion (Albion).  So it's really hard to place MTU anywhere except immediately behind Whitewater, but this isn't your normal, dominant Mount team yet.

They start sophomores at QB, TB and at the #2 WR position, and the defensive line rotation consists of 1 senior (who was a back-up last year), 4 sophomores and 2 freshmen.  As a result they have been very inconsistent and not nearly as physical up front as we've been used to seeing the last decade.    With Shorts' injury their one true difference maker is removed from the field and it shows.  At this point in the season, I believe Mount is a really good team.  Not great, just really good.  Very capable of making a run to Salem if they play well and stay healthy, but hardly a lock to make the Stagg like they've been recently with Micheli & Kmic.

If there was ever a time for someone to beat Mount in the regional bracket, this is the year.



Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 108Vincent on October 21, 2010, 11:44:37 am
IMHO, once you get past #1, it's open for discussion.  Mount is a clear #2 in most people's mind (but not mine) because of history.  The last time they failed to reach the Semi-Finals was 1994 and even that year was a 34-33 loss on the road to the eventual champion (Albion).  So it's really hard to place MTU anywhere except immediately behind Whitewater, but this isn't your normal, dominant Mount team yet.

They start sophomores at QB, TB and at the #2 WR position, and the defensive line rotation consists of 1 senior (who was a back-up last year), 4 sophomores and 2 freshmen.  As a result they have been very inconsistent and not nearly as physical up front as we've been used to seeing the last decade.    With Shorts' injury their one true difference maker is removed from the field and it shows.  At this point in the season, I believe Mount is a really good team.  Not great, just really good.  Very capable of making a run to Salem if they play well and stay healthy, but hardly a lock to make the Stagg like they've been recently with Micheli & Kmic.

If there was ever a time for someone to beat Mount in the regional bracket, this is the year.


I would guess North Central/Wheaton to be the most likely candidates to step up to the challenge in Alliance, but there's still time to get the young Purple Raiders coached-up some more before we get to that point.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 21, 2010, 11:46:47 am
I agree about Trine, they look like a solid team this season. I put them at #12. Even though Linfield had that early loss, I still consider them one of the better teams in the country, I posted them at #8. they are a better team than Harden Simmon and D. Valley I believe.

I left Wabash out of the top 25...they lost to a very mediocre team two weeks ago. So I put Case Western at 25.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 21, 2010, 11:52:47 am
IMHO, once you get past #1, it's open for discussion.  Mount is a clear #2 in most people's mind (but not mine) because of history.  The last time they failed to reach the Semi-Finals was 1994 and even that year was a 34-33 loss on the road to the eventual champion (Albion).  So it's really hard to place MTU anywhere except immediately behind Whitewater, but this isn't your normal, dominant Mount team yet.

They start sophomores at QB, TB and at the #2 WR position, and the defensive line rotation consists of 1 senior (who was a back-up last year), 4 sophomores and 2 freshmen.  As a result they have been very inconsistent and not nearly as physical up front as we've been used to seeing the last decade.    With Shorts' injury their one true difference maker is removed from the field and it shows.  At this point in the season, I believe Mount is a really good team.  Not great, just really good.  Very capable of making a run to Salem if they play well and stay healthy, but hardly a lock to make the Stagg like they've been recently with Micheli & Kmic.

If there was ever a time for someone to beat Mount in the regional bracket, this is the year.


I would guess North Central/Wheaton to be the most likely candidates to step up to the challenge in Alliance, but there's still time to get the young Purple Raiders coached-up some more before we get to that point.


The only chance that they will lose in the region is if they end up in the North...no way they lose to anyone out east
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 11:55:37 am
Thanks HSC, subject to the ire of OAC poster's I'll admit I have Mt Union 3rd on my ballot behind Wesley. The reason is similar to the ones you cite but its much simpler for me. In their championship runs they have played dominant defense throughout the regular season and been very effective running the ball. I don't see them handling the LOS the same way they have in the past. Here is a run down of an interesting stat on Mt Union that I view as somewhat telling:

Yds per play average by Mt Union since 2001:

year          off          def          National Champ
2010          6.7          3.9          ?
2009          7.1          3.5          UWW
2008          8.2          3.5          Mt Union
2007          7.5          2.8          UWW
2006          7.5          3.2          Mt Union
2005          7.2          3.5          Mt Union
2004          6.7            3.4          Linfield
2003          7.4          3.8         St Johns
2002          7.4          3.5          Mt Union
2001          7.2          3.5          Mt Union

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 21, 2010, 12:17:00 pm
Thanks HSC, subject to the ire of OAC poster's I'll admit I have Mt Union 3rd on my ballot behind Wesley. The reason is similar to the ones you cite but its much simpler for me. In their championship runs they have played dominant defense throughout the regular season and been very effective running the ball. I don't see them handling the LOS the same way they have in the past. Here is a run down of an interesting stat on Mt Union that I view as somewhat telling:

Yds per play average by Mt Union since 2001:

year          off          def          National Champ
2010          6.7          3.9          ?
2009          7.1          3.5          UWW
2008          8.2          3.5          Mt Union
2007          7.5          2.8          UWW
2006          7.5          3.2          Mt Union
2005          7.2          3.5          Mt Union
2004          6.7             3.4          Linfield
2003          7.4          3.8         St Johns
2002          7.4          3.5          Mt Union
2001          7.2          3.5          Mt Union



Not sure if that means anything, b/c they also lost the championship game (2007) when they had the best defensive year (according to your chart), while their offense had their second best season since 2001.

No way UMU should be lower than two...they are closer to UWW than Wesley in my opinion.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 12:22:42 pm
Being dominant on offenes and defense doesn't guarantee you a National Championship but it gives you the opportunity to compete for one. I think what we know is that in 2005-2010 Mount was dominant but not the ONLY dominant team. They lost 2 championships to UWW teams most would consider their equal. Prior to 2005 they were a category of 1. What I see is that Mt Union doesn't average less than 7 yds per play offensively or give up more than 3.5 yds per play defensively very often.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 21, 2010, 12:56:07 pm
D3 Top 25 Fan Poll


Team        Pts
1. UW-Whitewater (16)   400
2. Mount Union     381
3. Wesley       361
4. St. Thomas      346
5. North Central     332
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor    328
7. Delaware Valley     262
8. Wittenberg      261
9. Hardin-Simmons    252
10. Ohio Northern     240
11. Linfield       218
12. Thomas More     216
13. Wartburg      213
14. Wheaton      187
15. Montclair St.     183
16. Trine       171
17. St. John Fisher     164
18. Bethel       136
19. Coe        123
20. Central       99
21. Pacific Lutheran    88
22. Hampden-Sydney    85
23. Cal Lutheran     46
24. Ursinas       36
25. Case Western Reserve   17


Also Receiving Votes:
Wabash (15), Franklin (12), Rowan (12), Willamette (12), Illinois Wesleyan (6), Cortland State (6), Augustana (5), Depauw (4)


Due to the short week, we had 16 pollsters this week. With the other four ballots submitted next week, plus another weekend of data to draw from, there will likely be some shifts next week, maybe significant ones.  What strikes me is the narrow margin between some of the ranks. 

5. North Central     332
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor    328

7. Delaware Valley     262
8. Wittenberg      261

11. Linfield       218
12. Thomas More     216
13. Wartburg      213

14. Wheaton      187
15. Montclair St.     183

21. Pacific Lutheran    88
22. Hampden-Sydney    85






Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 21, 2010, 01:00:25 pm
Team        Pts
1. UW-Whitewater (16)   400
2. Mount Union     381
3. Wesley       361
4. St. Thomas      346
5. North Central     332
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor    328
7. Delaware Valley     262
8. Wittenberg      261
9. Hardin-Simmons    252
10. Ohio Northern     240
11. Linfield       218
12. Thomas More     216
13. Wartburg      213
14. Wheaton      187
15. Montclair St.     183
16. Trine       171
17. St. John Fisher     164
18. Bethel       136
19. Coe        123
20. Central       99
21. Pacific Lutheran    88
22. Hampden-Sydney    85
23. Cal Lutheran     46
24. Ursinas       36
25. Case Western Reserve   17

D3football.com poll

1   UW-Whitewater (23)   6-0   623   1
2   Mount Union (2)   6-0   602   2
3   Wesley   7-0   566   3
4   St. Thomas   7-0   548   4
5   Mary Hardin-Baylor   6-0   530   5
6   North Central (Ill.)   6-0   475   7
7   Wittenberg   7-0   438   8
8   Hardin-Simmons   6-1   401   10
9   Delaware Valley   5-1   358   12
10   Thomas More   6-0   352   11
11   Ohio Northern   5-1   345   13
12   Linfield   4-1   303   14
13   Wartburg   6-0   298   --
14   Montclair State   6-0   287   16
15   Trine   6-0   285   15
16   Coe   5-1   276   6
17   Wheaton (Ill.)   6-0   272   17
18   Central   6-1   233   9
19   St. John Fisher   7-0   215   18
20   Bethel   6-0   128   24
21   Hampden-Sydney   7-0   113   22
22   Pacific Lutheran   5-0   108   25
23   Cal Lutheran   4-1   95   21
24   Ursinus   6-0   39   --
25   Wabash   5-1   36   --
Dropped out: No. 19 Alfred, No. 20 Randolph-Macon, No. 23 Cortland State.

Others receiving votes: Case Western Reserve 35, DePauw 31, Rowan 29, Illinois Wesleyan 28, Franklin 17, Willamette 14, Springfield 12, Randolph-Macon 9, Alfred 8, Amherst 7, Cortland State 3, UW-Stevens Point 2, Williams 2, Baldwin-Wallace 1, Lycoming 1.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Raider 68 on October 21, 2010, 01:09:54 pm
Let's see how the Raiders finish the year and what the numbers tell us. Assuming that the Raiders are a #1 seed with home field advantage, they will be tough to beat at home during the playoffs. Can it be done, yes, I would not bet against them.

A thought to consider, they are getting better. only giving up 5.6 pts per game since first game against UW-OSH, and the running game is back. Maybe it good that many do not expect to see them in championship game after all the great Mount teams. If they do not make this year, the have a ton returning for the next 2 years with all those sophomores now!  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on October 21, 2010, 01:49:18 pm
No way UMU should be lower than two...they are closer to UWW than Wesley in my opinion.

I wouldn't disagree with anybody that wanted to rank Wesley ahead of Mount Union based on what's been done in 2010.  Wesley has a win over Delaware Valley and a roadie over Capital which are a pair of wins better than pretty much everybody else in D-III.  If you wanted to lean on the "who have you played and who did you beat" philisophy of balloting, Wesley has a good case to be in the top two.  BTW, that is the philosophy I used when ranking these teams, although I suspended my own rules for UWW and Mount Union because the rules just simply don't apply to them anymore.  Until they lose to someone other than each other, they get the benefit of the doubt against every other team in the division. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 21, 2010, 02:09:59 pm
No way UMU should be lower than two...they are closer to UWW than Wesley in my opinion.

I wouldn't disagree with anybody that wanted to rank Wesley ahead of Mount Union based on what's been done in 2010.  Wesley has a win over Delaware Valley and a roadie over Capital which are a pair of wins better than pretty much everybody else in D-III.  If you wanted to lean on the "who have you played and who did you beat" philisophy of balloting, Wesley has a good case to be in the top two.  BTW, that is the philosophy I used when ranking these teams, although I suspended my own rules for UWW and Mount Union because the rules just simply don't apply to them anymore.  Until they lose to someone other than each other, they get the benefit of the doubt against every other team in the division.  

yea, you're right...those are some good points. Wesley has looked good this year, and against some solid opponents. It's just for some reason I can't see them beating Mount or UWW. In the two meetings against UWW over the past 5 years, Wesley hasn't come within 37 points of them. And against a QB-less UMU last year, they still lost by 3 scores. but then again...this is a new year, and that was the past.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 21, 2010, 02:50:28 pm
I agree about Trine, they look like a solid team this season. I put them at #12. Even though Linfield had that early loss, I still consider them one of the better teams in the country, I posted them at #8. they are a better team than Harden Simmon and D. Valley I believe.

I left Wabash out of the top 25...they lost to a very mediocre team two weeks ago. So I put Case Western at 25.

I was surprised at Wartburg, both in the D3football poll and especially this one. 

I can't speak for everyone, but strength in recent games (Wartburg vs Coe) and recent losses (or close calls) to unranked teams weighed heavily in my choices
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 21, 2010, 03:31:04 pm
Thanks HSC, subject to the ire of OAC poster's I'll admit I have Mt Union 3rd on my ballot behind Wesley. The reason is similar to the ones you cite but its much simpler for me. In their championship runs they have played dominant defense throughout the regular season and been very effective running the ball. I don't see them handling the LOS the same way they have in the past. Here is a run down of an interesting stat on Mt Union that I view as somewhat telling:

Yds per play average by Mt Union since 2001:

year          off          def          National Champ
2010          6.7          3.9          ?
2009          7.1          3.5          UWW
2008          8.2          3.5          Mt Union
2007          7.5          2.8          UWW
2006          7.5          3.2          Mt Union
2005          7.2          3.5          Mt Union
2004          6.7             3.4          Linfield
2003          7.4          3.8         St Johns
2002          7.4          3.5          Mt Union
2001          7.2          3.5          Mt Union



Not sure if that means anything, b/c they also lost the championship game (2007) when they had the best defensive year (according to your chart), while their offense had their second best season since 2001.

No way UMU should be lower than two...they are closer to UWW than Wesley in my opinion.

I agree on Wesley as I have them 5th on my ballot.   They weren't nearly as close to beating Mount last year as they think.   

Usee will probably have a heart attack, but I have North Central #2.   ;D 

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 21, 2010, 03:38:59 pm
Thanks HSC, subject to the ire of OAC poster's I'll admit I have Mt Union 3rd on my ballot behind Wesley. The reason is similar to the ones you cite but its much simpler for me. In their championship runs they have played dominant defense throughout the regular season and been very effective running the ball. I don't see them handling the LOS the same way they have in the past. Here is a run down of an interesting stat on Mt Union that I view as somewhat telling:

Yds per play average by Mt Union since 2001:

year          off          def          National Champ
2010          6.7          3.9          ?
2009          7.1          3.5          UWW
2008          8.2          3.5          Mt Union
2007          7.5          2.8          UWW
2006          7.5          3.2          Mt Union
2005          7.2          3.5          Mt Union
2004          6.7             3.4          Linfield
2003          7.4          3.8         St Johns
2002          7.4          3.5          Mt Union
2001          7.2          3.5          Mt Union



Not sure if that means anything, b/c they also lost the championship game (2007) when they had the best defensive year (according to your chart), while their offense had their second best season since 2001.

No way UMU should be lower than two...they are closer to UWW than Wesley in my opinion.

I agree on Wesley as I have them 5th on my ballot.   They weren't nearly as close to beating Mount last year as they think.   

Usee will probably have a heart attack, but I have North Central #2.   ;D 



Where will you have NCC after my Titans shock the world on Saturday? ;D

(Actually, not even I am predicting that, though I'm taking the Titans against your spread. ;))
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 108Vincent on October 21, 2010, 03:48:02 pm
Wesley has a win over Delaware Valley and a roadie over Capital which are a pair of wins better than pretty much everybody else in D-III.

The win over Capital carries less weight than it would have over the last several years.  Capital is 3-3 this year headed into the Mount Union game.  They were fairly well dominated by #10 Ohio Northern 44-10, whereas Wesley didn't pull away from Capital until the last five minutes of the game.  Also, the Del Val game was pretty tight.  I'm not saying Wesley won't make another deep run in the playoffs, but #3 might be generous.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 05:38:05 pm
I saw Wesley play at UWW in their last meeting and they looked terrible. I remember wondering how they even made the tournament. But UWW does that to teams that visit the Perk sometimes.

I had NCC 4th on my ballot. #2 is generous because their offense is unproven against good competition and they havne't done well in the postseason IMO. I think they are very good up front on both sides of the ball and I think their defense is the real deal. We will see what they do against a good, balanced offense with a strong OLine. Right now I say they'll be favored in all of their remaining games but @Wheaton Nov 4 will tell us a bit. NCC has played extremely well against Wheaton the past 2 contests.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 06:33:10 pm
My initial reaction is that this is a cool endeavor, one that will give you guys a lot of insight into what it's like to do this week after week, but that your group of 16 produced a result not all that different from the official group of 25.

I'm not sure what it means, that the more people that vote, the more "righter" the result is, or that we're all victims of groupthink and influence each other into voting the same way.

Mount Union is the clear No. 2. I wouldn't say Wesley was completely outclassed when they played last year -- and I realize this is this year we're talking about -- and I realize this isn't your normal Mount Union team. But history has taught us that Mount Union teams get stronger as the year goes on, and I think they deserve to be the exeption to the re-evaluate-every-week rule until something drastic enough happens to show us they don't belong at No. 2.

That said, after this week, Wesley and MUC will have a common opponent, which is something we don't often have as a tool of comparison.

Also, the 2007 MUC team was definitely the most statistically dominant, and had it beaten UW-W, might have eclipsed 2002 or 1997(?) as the best MUC team ever. Probably another reason stats don't always tell the whole story. And also what made that UWW team one for the ages, because it had another team for the ages to beat.

I don't see what secret balloting accomplishes. I think you guys should list your 16 and openly discuss where you rank teams. That's basically the point, to generate further thinking/discussion, is it not?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 06:45:18 pm
K-Mack,

thanks for your comments. I agree with you (except the Mt Union part). I will certainly re-evaluate Mt Union after this weeks "common opponent". I am a toss up between Mt and Wesley at #2. In my opinion they haven't shown the dominance we have come to expect. That said, as they begin to do so I will respond.

I saw your ATN this week and your "overranked" list and meant to comment on the ATN board. On Trine, I think your arguement can be used the other way. THey may be under ranked because many are taking into account the atrocious performance of the MIAA in the non conference and post season. Trine has a good win at UWRF (I realize they are winless but that didn't hurt ONU and UWRF is likely the best winless team in the nation). I remember seeing them in the 2008 playoffs and they were the best team I saw that year. Their staff is putting it together and they haven't let up since then, accomplishing more in 2009 and I think their progression will continue in 2010.

I'm all for open ballots. I have freely thrown my picks out here for debate. I am just 1 guy and don't see all that many do so love to get the feedback. I should add that I tried very hard not to look at or recall the D3 top 25 while doing my ballot.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on October 21, 2010, 06:54:47 pm
My initial reaction is that this is a cool endeavor, one that will give you guys a lot of insight into what it's like to do this week after week, but that your group of 16 produced a result not all that different from the official group of 25.

I'm not sure what it means, that the more people that vote, the more "righter" the result is, or that we're all victims of groupthink and influence each other into voting the same way.

It's not too surprising to me that the two polls are pretty close to one another.  The "fan" poll isn't comprised of coaches and SIDs and media, but we're all following the same teams and we all have access to essentially the same information.  While different pockets of each polling group may process that data in different ways (some will take a "who could beat who on a neutral field" approach and eschew a lot of statistics, some will prefer statistics and actual results to the hypothetical...and either is right because this is, after all, an opinion poll), when you pile all of those ballots together, you'll probably wind up with similar results. 

I will say that putting together the list was more difficult than I had imagined it would be...and I'm sure that I didn't do quite the same level of research that you or the other D3Football.com voters do.  It is fun to do and I'm looking forward to seeing how the experience changes now that my "baseline" poll has been established. 

And I'll post my top 25 when I get back to where I have it saved...at risk of getting totally skewered.   :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on October 21, 2010, 07:26:36 pm
As promised...here's how I ranked the top 25 this week...

1   Whitewater
2   Mount Union
3   Wesley
4   UMHB
5   North Central
6   St. Thomas
7   Wartburg
8   Wheaton
9   Hampden-Sydney
10   St. John Fisher
11   Bethel
12   Montclair State
13   Delaware Valley
14   Hardiin-Simmons
15   Coe
16   Ohio Northern
17   Wittenberg
18   Trine
19   Pacific Lutheran
20   Cal Lutheran
21   Linfield
22   Thomas More
23   Ursinus
24   Central
25   Rowan

And for what it's worth...my next two were Cortland State and DePauw.  I'm happy to field questions...later.  Tonight I'm focused on watching the Giants try to get back to the World Series.  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 21, 2010, 07:36:06 pm
Will post mine later.  Typing this from
my phone
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 21, 2010, 07:37:04 pm
I have to admit it was a time consuming and interesting exercise. I'm sure I agree that keeping the voters a secret isn't necessary since most of us have too big of ego's  to "stay in the closet" . I'm not sure posting all our individual polls would be too smart either, cause then we get into second guessing everyone. I gave a lot of weight to strength of schedule and recent results, so I'm sure mine would ruffle some feathers. And yes there were some undefeated teams that got pushed down to 27 & 28.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 21, 2010, 07:37:16 pm
Just so Wally doesn't feel like he's hanging in the wind here's my ballot this week...

1- UW-Whitewater
2- Mount Union
3- St. Thomas
4- Wesley
5- Mary Hardin Baylor
6- North Central
7- Hardin-Simmons
8- Delaware Valley
9- Wittenberg
10- Ohio Northern
11- Linfield
12- Wartburg
13- St. John Fisher
14- Thomas More
15- Coe
16- Wheaton
17- Central
18- Trine
19- Pac-Lutheran
20- Montclair St.
21- Bethel
22- Cal Lutheran
23- Ursinus
24- Hamden Sydney
25- Rowan

Bash away...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 21, 2010, 07:40:14 pm
I have to admit it was a time consuming and interesting exercise. I'm sure I agree that keeping the voters a secret isn't necessary since most of us have too big of ego's  to "stay in the closet" . I'm not sure posting all our individual polls would be too smart either, cause then we get into second guessing everyone. I gave a lot of weight to strength of schedule and recent results, so I'm sure mine would ruffle some feathers. And yes there were some undefeated teams that got pushed down to 27 & 28.

yeah I didn't think it was going to be this difficult to differentiate teams from conference to conference and then to take account head to head results, common opponents both in region and out of region, level of competition played and how impressive the victory was...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 21, 2010, 07:43:48 pm
I have no fear. Here is mine.

1   UWW
2   Wesley
3   Mt Union
4   North Central
5   Wittenberg
6   St Thomas
7   Trine
8   Delaware Valley
9   UMHB
10   Bethel
11   Hardin Simmons
12   Montclair State
13   Ohio Northern
14   Linfield
15   Thomas More
16   St John Fisher
17   Wartburg
18   Wheaton
19   Franklin
20   Ursinus
21   Hampden Syd
22   Coe
23   Wabash
24   Pac Lutheran
25   Case Western
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 21, 2010, 07:47:01 pm
My initial reaction is that this is a cool endeavor, one that will give you guys a lot of insight into what it's like to do this week after week, but that your group of 16 produced a result not all that different from the official group of 25.

I'm not sure what it means, that the more people that vote, the more "righter" the result is, or that we're all victims of groupthink and influence each other into voting the same way.

Mount Union is the clear No. 2. I wouldn't say Wesley was completely outclassed when they played last year -- and I realize this is this year we're talking about -- and I realize this isn't your normal Mount Union team. But history has taught us that Mount Union teams get stronger as the year goes on, and I think they deserve to be the exeption to the re-evaluate-every-week rule until something drastic enough happens to show us they don't belong at No. 2.

That said, after this week, Wesley and MUC will have a common opponent, which is something we don't often have as a tool of comparison.

Also, the 2007 MUC team was definitely the most statistically dominant, and had it beaten UW-W, might have eclipsed 2002 or 1997(?) as the best MUC team ever. Probably another reason stats don't always tell the whole story. And also what made that UWW team one for the ages, because it had another team for the ages to beat.

I don't see what secret balloting accomplishes. I think you guys should list your 16 and openly discuss where you rank teams. That's basically the point, to generate further thinking/discussion, is it not?

I've run the fan poll for basketball for its entire existence (4 years?) - I'm jealous that bleedpurple already has nearly twice the voters that I've ever managed! ;)  (I almost signed up, but don't follow football nearly as obsessively as basketball - for much of the football season I'm still out in my RV!  I'm available if you need another CCIW voter, bp.)

While bball fan poll voters do not routinely post their entire ballots, they have not been shy about revealing 'anomalous' votes (and defending them) - that IS indeed the whole point of the fan poll. :D

If any of you fball voters would like to join in on bball, I'd love to get it up to at least 15 voters a week. ;D

(And, yes, it is rare to have a team more than 2-3 positions different than the 'gold standard' d3hoops.com poll.  We are all following the same stats and commentaries!)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 21, 2010, 08:16:43 pm
Alright, bombs away:

Insert your own numbers:


University of Wisconsin Whitewater
University of Mount Union
North Central
Wesley
Saint Thomas
Mary Hardin Baylor
Ohio Northern
Saint John Fisher
Linfield
Delaware Valley
Hardin Simmons
Bethal
Wartburg
Willamette
Wheaton
Montclair
Pacific Lutheran
Cal Lute
Thomas More
Central
Augustana
Cortland St
Trine
Ursinus
Coe
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 21, 2010, 08:42:51 pm
Great Seventies, you just revealed where all 12 of Willamette's points came from!  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 09:05:10 pm
I have to admit it was a time consuming and interesting exercise.

I spend about 30 minutes a week on mine, unless it's a fairly straightforward nobody good played each other and/or lost week.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 21, 2010, 09:17:29 pm
Each pollster was asked which conference he or she followed most closely.  Here are the conferences represented among the ballots submitted this week:

WIAC
MIAC
CCIW
E-8
OAC
UAA
NCAC
NJAC
PAC
MIAA
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 21, 2010, 09:20:27 pm
Ranking all 25 is tough when there are large groups that are essentially the same.  Not sure who came up with it first (Ryan Tipps??), but I think grouping teams by tiers is more accurate than a true ranking.

I never looked at the D3 poll when I did mine.  Might not be the best opinion out there, but I bet it's the most usual with a Mount guy having the Raiders clear down at #4 ;D.  I've added my reasoning so everyone can shoot holes in my list.  Shoot away:

1.   Whitewater - #1 by a wide margin
2.   North Central - been impresses by their margins of victory
3.   St. Thomas - solid team getting better each year
4.   Mount Union - by week 12 or 13, Mount will probably be #2, but not yet.

5.   Wesley - not overly impressed by them last year.  Solid team, but not enough playmakers to push the big boys
6.   Mary Hardin Baylor - good history and name recognition, but defense is worrisome
7.   Ohio Northern - will be a tough out for anyone in the playoffs due to experience
8.   Wartburg - impressive season so far for a historically average team
9.   Linfield - assume early loss was an aberration
10.   Wheaton - one of the few teams/coaches that LK fears having another good season
11.   Central - last year's playoff run needs repeated to climb higher in my mind
12.   Hardin Simmons - talented offensively, but defense is poor.  Hard team to figure out.
13.   Coe - solid
14.   Delaware Valley - best of the east still not a threat.  Where is Rowan of the 90's when you need them?
15.   Thomas More - firmly entrenched into W&J's spot of being good, but not great
16.   Bethel - could climb in a hurry if they keep winning

17.   Montclair State - not sure what to think of MSU
18.   Wittenberg - very surprising playoff run last year looks like a fluke.  Struggling with some BAD teams
19.   St John Fisher - impressive start, but still have to see more before I believe SJF is a true regional threat
20.   Pacific Lutheran - #20 just felt right for someone I know nothing about
21.   Hampden Sydney -  see Pac Lutheran
22.   Trine - not sold on Trine at all.  I figure they're the '10 version of Mt St Joe?
23.   Case Western Reserve - has improved over the years, but a LONG way away from being more than an afterthought in the North Region
24.   Illinois Wesleyan - I give them a boost due to being competitive in the ultra-tough CCIW
25.   Wabash - Probably could have went somewhere else, but the no one stands out this far down.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 21, 2010, 09:28:04 pm
I have to admit it was a time consuming and interesting exercise.

I spend about 30 minutes a week on mine, unless it's a fairly straightforward nobody good played each other and/or lost week.

Keith,

I'm sure the familiarity and knowledge base you have built up, being sure of the criteria you have developed in ranking, and staying current through all the work you have put in allows for great efficiency in putting together your poll.

 I have a couple question for you. How much time do you put in mining "below the surface"? In other words, how much time do you look at numbers 26-40 (or whatever number is applicable)? Also, for your personal records, do you actually rank below the top 25 for your personal records? I would think it would be helpful to continue to deepen your analysis a bit in case Saturday is one of those "any given Saturdays".
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 21, 2010, 09:29:48 pm
Ranking all 25 is tough when there are large groups that are essentially the same.  Not sure who came up with it first (Ryan Tipps??), but I think grouping teams by tiers is more accurate than a true ranking.

Gordon Mann talked about this concept during the playoffs last year, maybe the year before. He might have been the first.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Old IC Voice on October 21, 2010, 09:45:52 pm
Here's mine (thanks to bleedpurple for sending it back to me via PM when I forgot to save it in my outbox!)...

1) UW-Whitewater
2) Mount Union
3) Wesley
4) North Central
5) St. Thomas
6) Wittenberg
7) Thomas More
8) Mary Hardin-Baylor
9) Wartburg
10) Delaware Valley
11) Montclair State
12) Hardin-Simmons
13) Ohio Northern
14) Pacific Lutheran
15) St. John Fisher
16) Trine
17) Wheaton
18) Bethel
19) Hampden-Sydney
20) Cal Lutheran
21) Coe
22) Rowan
23) Central
24) Linfield
25) Ursinus

I'll readily admit I probably stiffed Linfield, but I feel like they've got something to prove this week, and if they lose to a very solid Pacific Lutheran team (who topped the Cal Lutheran team that BEAT them), they could conceivably be the third-best team in the conference.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 21, 2010, 09:59:46 pm
Great Seventies, you just revealed where al 12 of Willamette's points came from!  ;D

Or more importantly, totally skunked the NCAC and UAA.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 09:59:59 pm
Ranking all 25 is tough when there are large groups that are essentially the same.  Not sure who came up with it first (Ryan Tipps??), but I think grouping teams by tiers is more accurate than a true ranking.

Gordon Mann talked about this concept during the playoffs last year, maybe the year before. He might have been the first.

It was Gordon, but I think it was more than a year ago. I think it was a board post that we could probably search down.

Tiers probably are more functional/useful than a top 25 for our purposes, since the criteria were like legit championship threat (MUC)/elite team that will lose to a lower team once in a while (Linfield)/team that has good season every so often & maybe could win a playoff game.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 21, 2010, 11:42:56 pm
My D3 poll:
UWW
Mount Union
Wesley (still not at the same level as UWW and Mount)
St. Thomas
North Central (i like the CCIW this year)
MHB
Wittenberg
Linfield (totally different team from their opening game)
Harden Simmons
D. Valley (never been high on teams from the East...sorry)
Thomas More
Trine
Ohio Northern
Wheaton (see North Central)
Wartburg
Montclair St.
Coe
Central
Bethel
St. John Fisher
Hampden-Sydney
Pacific Lutheran
Cal Lutheran
Ursinus
Case Western Reserve

For what it's worth...Wabash was 26th   :-[
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: jam40jeff on October 22, 2010, 10:20:44 am
Great Seventies, you just revealed where al 12 of Willamette's points came from!  ;D

Or more importantly, totally skunked the NCAC and UAA.

If you're going to get all dramatic and completely drop Wittenburg out of the poll for "non-impressive wins" (I agree they aren't Top 10, but not Top 25?), shouldn't you have also dinged Mount Union significantly for struggling against the always pitiful Marietta?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 22, 2010, 11:19:41 am
Great Seventies, you just revealed where al 12 of Willamette's points came from!  ;D

Or more importantly, totally skunked the NCAC and UAA.

If you're going to get all dramatic and completely drop Wittenburg out of the poll for "non-impressive wins" (I agree they aren't Top 10, but not Top 25?), shouldn't you have also dinged Mount Union significantly for struggling against the always pitiful Marietta?

I can't argue with that because I think there are some in the top five that would give Mount a game, but at least I didn't use that to justify BW. Witt, Wabash and Case were all on the list in the beginning (no so B-W)but ended up in a group of seven that got pushed out of the list. At least you can't accuse me of including them because they are Ohio related

If you have a week or two I'll explain my numbers but please start by looking where Witt is in strength of schedule (Not that Mount is very high either). The inter conference games between Wooster-BW and Case Western and JCU while impressive at the time really now shine some light on things.

But I am totally guilty of using the old tyme method of placing 1 and 2

And I ranked Wittenberg about nine places lower than HSCoach, but still in the top 32
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 22, 2010, 11:54:13 am
How I ranked 'em:

1. UW - Whitewater
2. Mt. Union
3. Wesley
4. North Central
5. St. Thomas
6. Mary Hardin - Baylor
7. Wartburg
8. Wheaton
9. Hardin - Simmons
10. St. John Fisher
11. Wittenberg
12. Delaware Valley
13. Ohio Northern
14. Montclair St.
15. Bethel
16. Linfield
17. Thomas More
18. Pacific Litheran
19. Hampden - Sydney
20. Central (IA)
21. Coe
22. Ursinus
23. Wabash
24. DePauw
25. Trine
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 22, 2010, 07:29:14 pm
I have been enduring Seventies posts for years on these boards. I am telling you I could have submitted his ballot for him based on his stated views on the various regions, conferences and teams over the years. It can't have anything to do with current reality. Remember, his name ain't seventies because he's young!!  ;D ;D :-*
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 22, 2010, 08:06:22 pm
A few tabulation tidbits about the first Top 25 Fan Poll:

Fan Favorite:  Wheaton College was the team with the most variance UPWARD as compared to the D3football.com poll. (14,17)

Over-rated? Coe was the team with the most variance DOWNWARD as compared to the D3football.come poll. (19,16)

Ballot Variance: Two Pollsters ranked Wittenberg at 5. One left them off the ballot entirely. St. John Fisher was listed as high as 6 on one ballot and was left off another.  

Faker's Dozen: Although Thomas More was ranked 12th, no pollster actually ranked them 12th.  









Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Kohawk Krazy on October 22, 2010, 08:16:21 pm
I find it interesting how many people had Central ranked ahead of Coe, despite beating them 37-28.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 22, 2010, 08:34:13 pm
A few tabulation tidbits about the first Top 25 Fan Poll:

Fan Favorite:  Wheaton College was the team with the most variance UPWARD as compared to the D3football.com poll. (14,17)

Over-rated? Coe was the team with the most variance DOWNWARD as compared to the D3football.come poll. (19,16)

Ballot Variance: Two Pollsters ranked Wittenberg at 5. One left them off the ballot entirely. St. John Fisher was listed as high as 6 on one ballot and was left off another.  

Faker's Dozen: Although Thomas More was ranked 12th, no pollster actually ranked them 12th.  











Fisher at 6???

WOW
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: altor on October 22, 2010, 09:17:25 pm
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 22, 2010, 09:24:01 pm
I find it interesting how many people had Central ranked ahead of Coe, despite beating them 37-28.

Although Coe ranked a spot higher on the poll and by a pretty significant margin of 24 points.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 22, 2010, 09:25:32 pm
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.

Or is there something football loving humans can see that computers cannot??   ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: altor on October 22, 2010, 09:35:49 pm
Or is there something football loving humans can see that computers cannot??   ;D
I don't mean to get into a human vs. computer debate.  I've done it to death.  Nobody gets convinced.

My point was that a vote for SJF at #6 was not entirely without substance.  Your point must be that such a vote did not come from a football loving human?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 22, 2010, 09:45:37 pm
Or is there something football loving humans can see that computers cannot??   ;D
I don't mean to get into a human vs. computer debate.  I've done it to death.  Nobody gets convinced.

My point was that a vote for SJF at #6 was not entirely without substance.  Your point must be that such a vote did not come from a football loving human?

I'm a SJF alum and I don't even think they're #6...

That's just me though...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 22, 2010, 09:48:49 pm
Or is there something football loving humans can see that computers cannot??   ;D
I don't mean to get into a human vs. computer debate.  I've done it to death.  Nobody gets convinced.

My point was that a vote for SJF at #6 was not entirely without substance.  Your point must be that such a vote did not come from a football loving human?

I'm a SJF alum and I don't even think they're #6...

That's just me though...
SJF at #6? 

It is very simple to explain...

East Coast Bias.    ;)     :D     ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 22, 2010, 09:51:41 pm
Well I'm a Wheaton alum and I don't think they are top 10 like many of my fellow pollsters. I had them at 18 and thought that may have been high. It always depends on your perspective. I have a high view of St John Fish but could only jusify them at 16. We will know a lot more in the next 3 weeks as they face Alfred and then 2 weeks later Springfield (who has been on my radar as well).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 22, 2010, 09:55:17 pm
Well I'm a Wheaton alum and I don't think they are top 10 like many of my fellow pollsters. I had them at 18 and thought that may have been high. It always depends on your perspective. I have a high view of St John Fish but could only jusify them at 16. We will know a lot more in the next 3 weeks as they face Alfred and then 2 weeks later Springfield (who has been on my radar as well).

Eh, Springfield doesn't do anything for me.  They're a one trick pony that SJF has solved.  It's Alfred that scares the crap out of me tomorrow...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CardinalAlum on October 22, 2010, 10:05:42 pm
Here's mine:

1. UW-W
2. Mt. Union
3. Wesley
4. St. Thomas
5. Mary Hardin Baylor
6. North Central
7. Ohio Northern
8. Hardin Simmons
9. Wittenberg
10. Linfield
11. Delaware Valley
12. Montclair State
13. Thomas More
14. Wheaton
15. St. John Fisher
16. Trine
17. Bethel
18. Hampden-Sydney
19. Pacific Lutheran
20. Cal Lutheran
21. Wabash
22. Wartburg
23. Coe
24. Central
25. Franklin
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 22, 2010, 10:08:15 pm
Springfield played Alfred pretty tough. I will be interested to compare common opponent with STJ tomorrow.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 22, 2010, 10:21:59 pm
I have been enduring Seventies posts for years on these boards. I am telling you I could have submitted his ballot for him based on his stated views on the various regions, conferences and teams over the years. It can't have anything to do with current reality. Remember, his name ain't seventies because he's young!!  ;D ;D :-*

Sorry USEE, but until you can convince me Wittenberg can beat any of the teams I ranked ahead of them, you just have to bear with it. Yes they are a playoff team but only by virtual of winning out in a very weak conference. The NCAC is so weak from 3 thru the end, that statistics mean almost nothing. Sorry, but the facts don't support them anywhere above 20. And anyway, isn't that why we have polls, to accommodate different viewpoints and biases? It is my personal feeling that Wittenberg is the most consistently over ranked team in D3.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 22, 2010, 10:39:44 pm
Seventies, you don't have to defend your picks to me. That's what the poll is all about. All I said is I could have predicted your picks.....never said they were wrong. More power to ya.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 22, 2010, 11:05:01 pm
Seventies, you don't have to defend your picks to me. That's what the poll is all about. All I said is I could have predicted your picks.....never said they were wrong. More power to ya.

Thanks, it's not like Witt, Wabash and Case Western weren't ever in my poll, they are just in the next ten. Every week it will become clearer and less of a crap shoot
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 22, 2010, 11:20:36 pm
Or is there something football loving humans can see that computers cannot??   ;D
I don't mean to get into a human vs. computer debate.  I've done it to death.  Nobody gets convinced.

My point was that a vote for SJF at #6 was not entirely without substance.  Your point must be that such a vote did not come from a football loving human?

Not at all. I was just posing a question to point out there are two sides to that argument. 

By the way, I agree with the point you made. I do not believe SJF at #6 was without substance.  That's higher than I would have ranked them, but I respect the fact that it was submitted by a fan who gave thoughtful consideration before submitting his ballot.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 22, 2010, 11:40:39 pm
I find it interesting how many people had Central ranked ahead of Coe, despite beating them 37-28.

Take the Kohawk blinders out of your eyes. If Coe and Central played many times on a neutral field, who would win the most times?

To me, Central's win against Oshkosh and especially at Augie outweighs a loss in a rivalry game.

But, your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 22, 2010, 11:45:40 pm
That's funny because centrals close game at Augie is what kept them out of my poll. Different strokes...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 23, 2010, 12:10:00 am
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.

Keith has them at 7, we learned in the podcast this week.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: gordonmann on October 23, 2010, 05:03:01 pm
Quote
Keith has them at 7, we learned in the podcast this week.

I had them No. 13, but higher than any other East Region team (Del Val next at 14).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 23, 2010, 05:36:51 pm
After Witt needed a missed FG by Carnegie-Mellon to just make it to overtime, I'm thinking 70's non-ranking of Wittenberg is spot on.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 23, 2010, 05:43:29 pm
70's is smarter than the average bear. The luster is certainly off for Witt's D. CMU w over 300 yds rushing. Ouch.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on October 23, 2010, 05:50:05 pm
And SJF loses, has the East region gotten even weaker this year?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Polljavascript:replaceText('%20;)',%20document.forms.postmodif
Post by: footballfan413 on October 23, 2010, 06:12:38 pm
After Witt needed a missed FG by Carnegie-Mellon to just make it to overtime, I'm thinking 70's non-ranking of Wittenberg is spot on.
I had them at #12 but it was painful.  Looks like I need to listen to my gut next time .   ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 23, 2010, 09:22:31 pm
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.

Peter Wolfe's poll:


 1 Hampden-Sydney           III        7  0   243  131    0.979   xx
    2 St John Fisher           III        7  0   302  121    0.849   xx
    3 Wesley                   III        7  0   321   82    0.821   xx
    4 Wheaton                  III        6  0   237   90    0.818   xx
    5 St Thomas                III        7  0   315   91    0.783   xx
    6 Wartburg                 III        6  0   181   48    0.756   xx
    7 Mary Hardin-Baylor       III        6  0   223  157    0.733   xx
    8 North Central            III        6  0   228   51    0.730   xx
    9 Mount Union              III        6  0   247   56    0.705   xx
   10 DePauw                   III        6  0   201   97    0.635   xx

Whatever his computer "sees", is a mirage, a hallucination, or a bad dream. Is it inappropriate of me to be thankful he's not part of our D3 Top 25 Fan Poll?  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 23, 2010, 09:30:45 pm
Next week's poll should be really interesting. Close wins by #4 St. Thomas, #6 UMHB, and #8 Wittenberg. What to do with Bethel and PLU after they lose to teams ranked higher? St. John Fisher goes down and Wheaton is in trouble during a 3rd quarter lightening delay.  And each pollster will be working from their own ballot as a baseline from this week. Should be a fun couple of days sorting it all out the next couple of days!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 23, 2010, 10:11:46 pm
Wheaton has come back from a 24-7 halftime deficit to lead 31-24.

With all the talk of SJF being horribly under-ranked, it will be interesting to see if they are ranked at all this week. ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 23, 2010, 10:20:47 pm
Wheaton wins it! Very nice comeback!  It will be really interesting to see the Fan Poll this week. A few teams may be really testing the patience of the pollsters. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HSCTiger74 on October 24, 2010, 12:26:22 am
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.

Peter Wolfe's poll:


 1 Hampden-Sydney           III        7  0   243  131    0.979   xx
    2 St John Fisher           III        7  0   302  121    0.849   xx
    3 Wesley                   III        7  0   321   82    0.821   xx
    4 Wheaton                  III        6  0   237   90    0.818   xx
    5 St Thomas                III        7  0   315   91    0.783   xx
    6 Wartburg                 III        6  0   181   48    0.756   xx
    7 Mary Hardin-Baylor       III        6  0   223  157    0.733   xx
    8 North Central            III        6  0   228   51    0.730   xx
    9 Mount Union              III        6  0   247   56    0.705   xx
   10 DePauw                   III        6  0   201   97    0.635   xx

Whatever his computer "sees", is a mirage, a hallucination, or a bad dream. Is it inappropriate of me to be thankful he's not part of our D3 Top 25 Fan Poll?  ;D

I'm as loyal an alum as the next guy but even I know that poll's ridiculous.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 24, 2010, 01:54:52 am
Remember that the BCS neuters the computer rankings by making them eliminate all vestiges of margin of victory. HSC had a fair number of close wins early on.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 24, 2010, 10:03:46 am
Wheaton has come back from a 24-7 halftime deficit to lead 31-24.

With all the talk of SJF being horribly under-ranked, it will be interesting to see if they are ranked at all this week. ;)

I wasn't sure about SJF to begin with, I didn't have them in my top 25 going into this weekend....

Wheaton on the other hand was in my top 15...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 24, 2010, 05:55:11 pm
After Witt needed a missed FG by Carnegie-Mellon to just make it to overtime, I'm thinking 70's non-ranking of Wittenberg is spot on.

Cue Herm Edwards...

"YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!" Hello!

CMU isn't a cupcake, and sometimes the non-conference non-rivalry road games are the toughest to get up for.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 24, 2010, 06:41:23 pm
If it were just one game like that I would be willing to chalk it up to that.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 24, 2010, 11:18:42 pm
MHB seems to be hanging on by a thread all season long...they are going to fall sooner or later. they don't seem as strong as years in the past.

So much for those who ranked SJF in the top 10  ;).

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 25, 2010, 12:43:38 am
If it were just one game like that I would be willing to chalk it up to that.

(I can't believe I'm defending Wittenberg....)

Fact is they've won, and they won those nail-biters on the road. Other teams probably would have folded up. Survive and advance. And other cliches...



Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 12:52:28 am
I have to admit it was a time consuming and interesting exercise.

I spend about 30 minutes a week on mine, unless it's a fairly straightforward nobody good played each other and/or lost week.

Keith,

I'm sure the familiarity and knowledge base you have built up, being sure of the criteria you have developed in ranking, and staying current through all the work you have put in allows for great efficiency in putting together your poll.

 I have a couple question for you. How much time do you put in mining "below the surface"? In other words, how much time do you look at numbers 26-40 (or whatever number is applicable)? Also, for your personal records, do you actually rank below the top 25 for your personal records? I would think it would be helpful to continue to deepen your analysis a bit in case Saturday is one of those "any given Saturdays".

Sorry I didnt answer this right away, but if it means anything, I remembered you asking while putting together my vote this week.

I always go past 25. I used to do a item in ATN called My 26-35, but it never really held at 35. Now I don't necessarily go that far, 28 some weeks, 32 other weeks, 37 other weeks. This year, I've just been going until I don't think there are any more teams I'd consider for top 25.

But yes, it definitely helps in figuring out which teams to move in the next week when teams play their way out.

Also I vote in the Lambert poll now, so having to go at least 10 East teams deep usually forces me to go beyond 25, which is good.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:01:31 am
If it were just one game like that I would be willing to chalk it up to that.

(I can't believe I'm defending Wittenberg....)

Fact is they've won, and they won those nail-biters on the road. Other teams probably would have folded up. Survive and advance. And other cliches...

That's all well and good when you're comparing Wittenberg to teams that are not winning. But when I'm staring at an 8-0 Wittenberg with three nail-biters and the No. 222 SoS and, say, 7-1 Delaware Valley ... well "fact is they've won" doesn't paint the full portrait.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:20:54 am
And anyway, isn't that why we have polls, to accommodate different viewpoints and biases? It is my personal feeling that Wittenberg is the most consistently over ranked team in D3.

Yes.

And

W&J
St. John's
Wabash

Rowan was for a while, but now they're actually underranked.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 25, 2010, 01:38:41 am
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.

Keith has them at 7, we learned in the podcast this week.

7 on my ballot is a dangerous spot. I think I've seen more of my 7s lose than any spot in the 20s. :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 25, 2010, 07:37:12 am
Fisher at 6???

WOW
Peter Wolfe (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/ratings.htm#Division_III) has SJF at #2 in D-III.
Dave Rothman (http://prwolfe.bol.ucla.edu/cfootball/rothman.txt) has them at #5.
Massey has them at 7.
My computer (which only takes results between two D-III's into account) has them at 3.

There's something the computers see there that not many humans do.

Keith has them at 7, we learned in the podcast this week.

7 on my ballot is a dangerous spot. I think I've seen more of my 7s lose than any spot in the 20s. :D

Any spot is dangerous...What's that term, Any given Sunday? I would say it works for Saturdays too
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on October 25, 2010, 08:56:07 am
MHB seems to be hanging on by a thread all season long...they are going to fall sooner or later. they don't seem as strong as years in the past.

So much for those who ranked SJF in the top 10  ;).


I don't think UMHB will lose during the regular season.  There have been a lot of close games, mostly due to play in the defensive backfield which is really dangerous in the pass happy ASC, yet they have managed to win.  I think what is interesting to note is how they are doing it.  They are running the ball as always, but when teams come up and stack the box and say your only going to win if you pass the ball, this season they have thrown the ball successfully. They're by no means prolific at the pass, but they are averaging 147 yds/game, and that is something new. 

That said, I think that HSU is the best team in the ASC right now, and if they get an at large bid they will be a force to reckon with.  UMHB can still right the ship defensively, so maybe that changes, but barring injury between now and the inevitable rematch, I think HSU has the better chance of winning a second game right now.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 25, 2010, 09:56:23 am
MHB seems to be hanging on by a thread all season long...they are going to fall sooner or later. they don't seem as strong as years in the past.

So much for those who ranked SJF in the top 10  ;).


I don't think UMHB will lose during the regular season.  There have been a lot of close games, mostly due to play in the defensive backfield which is really dangerous in the pass happy ASC, yet they have managed to win.  I think what is interesting to note is how they are doing it.  They are running the ball as always, but when teams come up and stack the box and say your only going to win if you pass the ball, this season they have thrown the ball successfully. They're by no means prolific at the pass, but they are averaging 147 yds/game, and that is something new. 

That said, I think that HSU is the best team in the ASC right now, and if they get an at large bid they will be a force to reckon with.  UMHB can still right the ship defensively, so maybe that changes, but barring injury between now and the inevitable rematch, I think HSU has the better chance of winning a second game right now.

yea, you're probably right about MHB winning out this regular season. But still this isn't the MHB team I'm used to seeing. Usually they have a shutdown style defense.

As far as their passing game this season, I would describe it as "getting by" rather than "successful."

     Cmp-Att-Int   Pct      Yards   TD    Avg/G
       64-129-9     49.6   1030      6     147.1 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on October 25, 2010, 09:59:04 am
K-Mack

Why do you think St John's is consistently over ranked. This year, they have lost three games by less than a TD, two to highly ranked teams, two in OT. The loss to UWEC was early in the season, when weird things happen, and some of those might have been in the officiating realm. (I know that they should not have been in the position where a "bad" call would hurt them, and you have to overcaome, yadda, yadda, yadda......).

Over the past few years, they have either gone deep in the playoffs, or lost relatively close games to the eventual #2 or Champion, in most instances. They were last blown out, when? Give your reasoning if you would. I think I made a fairly strong case for mine.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 25, 2010, 11:06:19 am
MHB seems to be hanging on by a thread all season long...they are going to fall sooner or later. they don't seem as strong as years in the past.

So much for those who ranked SJF in the top 10  ;).


I don't think UMHB will lose during the regular season.  There have been a lot of close games, mostly due to play in the defensive backfield which is really dangerous in the pass happy ASC, yet they have managed to win.  I think what is interesting to note is how they are doing it.  They are running the ball as always, but when teams come up and stack the box and say your only going to win if you pass the ball, this season they have thrown the ball successfully. They're by no means prolific at the pass, but they are averaging 147 yds/game, and that is something new.  

That said, I think that HSU is the best team in the ASC right now, and if they get an at large bid they will be a force to reckon with.  UMHB can still right the ship defensively, so maybe that changes, but barring injury between now and the inevitable rematch, I think HSU has the better chance of winning a second game right now.

yea, you're probably right about MHB winning out this regular season. But still this isn't the MHB team I'm used to seeing. Usually they have a shutdown style defense.

As far as their passing game this season, I would describe it as "getting by" rather than "successful."

     Cmp-Att-Int   Pct      Yards   TD    Avg/G
       64-129-9     49.6   1030      6     147.1  
I don't think D3 fans understand how good ASC passing offenses are. I think that UMHB will go a long way into the playoffs before they have as much trouble with offensive matchups as they are finding in the ASC.  (Unless HSU beats them in the first round.)

Granted that we are isolated, but Howard Payne took Trinity to OT.
Sul Ross lost by a TD to D2 Western New Mexico.
HSU was strong versus NWC teams.

As for this weekend, the McMurry at HSU game will be big, but it will also be only the 18th game for Coach Mumme and his system at McMurry.  It may only now be approaching its full potential.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on October 25, 2010, 11:28:49 am

yea, you're probably right about MHB winning out this regular season. But still this isn't the MHB team I'm used to seeing. Usually they have a shutdown style defense.

As far as their passing game this season, I would describe it as "getting by" rather than "successful."

     Cmp-Att-Int   Pct      Yards   TD    Avg/G
       64-129-9     49.6   1030      6     147.1 
They definitely do not look like the cru d of old, but for the Cru, historically, that is a successful passing game.  ;D
 And I'll echo Ralph that the passing game in the ASC is very good.  Keep in mind the Cru d was designed to beat the perennial power of the day, HSU who always had a huge o line, a powerful running game and good passing.  The Dline and LBs were central because if the QB is running for his life he can't throw the football so you had big and fast D linemen and fast athletic LBs.  (That formula still worked against HSU this year by the way.)  That defensive alignment isn't really the best for defending pass happy QBs, of which there have been many in recent years.  Contrast that with defenses that can scheme for the running game by stacking the line and you have a less dominating UMHB that still rushes for 280+/game and almost 37 points and whose DBs have come up big against every team they've played when it mattered. 

As I said I think HSU is probably the best in the league, but if the two don't have to play in round 1 or 2 the ASC will make a good showing in the playoffs.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 26, 2010, 07:51:28 am
This week's D3 TOP 25 FAN POLL has just been released!

www.uwwfootball.blogspot.com

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 26, 2010, 09:17:37 am
My entry to the poll

UWW
Mount Union
Wesley
North Central
St. Thomas
Linfield
Wittenberg
MHB
Harden Simmons
D. Valley
Thomas More
Trine
Ohio Northern
Wheaton
Wartburg
Montclair St.
Central
Coe
Hampden-Sydney
Cal Lutheran
Bethel
Pacific Lutheran
Alfred
Ursinus
Case Western Reserve
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 26, 2010, 09:21:10 am
Here is the actual poll

D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

1. UW-Whitewater (20) 500
2. Mt. Union     479
3. Wesley    453
4. North Central   435
5. St. Thomas   417
6. UMHB    394
7. Delaware Valley  336
8. Hardin-Simmons  318
9. Ohio Northern   305
10. Linfield    300
11. Wartburg    288
12. Wittenberg   269
13. Thomas More   264
14 Wheaton    242
15. Montclair St.   233
16. Trine    210
17. Coe     169
18. Bethel    167
19. Central 134
20. Hampden-Sydney  133
21. California Lutheran  90
22. Ursinas     84
23. St. John Fisher   56
24. Alfred     46
Pacific Lutheran 46

Dropped Out: Case Western Reserve

Others receiving votes: Case Western Reserve (36), Depauw (21), Rowan (17), Wabash (17), Franklin (16), Cortland St. (12), Willamette (8), Augustana (4)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: blu thru n thru on October 26, 2010, 09:43:34 am
What???  No IC Blueboys???!!!  There goes the credibility of this poll... ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 26, 2010, 09:49:55 am
D3 Top 25 Fan Poll


Team        Pts
1. UW-Whitewater (16)   400
2. Mount Union     381
3. Wesley       361
4. St. Thomas      346
5. North Central     332
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor    328
7. Delaware Valley     262
8. Wittenberg      261
9. Hardin-Simmons    252
10. Ohio Northern     240
11. Linfield       218
12. Thomas More     216
13. Wartburg      213
14. Wheaton      187
15. Montclair St.     183
16. Trine       171
17. St. John Fisher     164
18. Bethel       136
19. Coe        123
20. Central       99
21. Pacific Lutheran    88
22. Hampden-Sydney    85
23. Cal Lutheran     46
24. Ursinas       36
25. Case Western Reserve   17


Also Receiving Votes:
Wabash (15), Franklin (12), Rowan (12), Willamette (12), Illinois Wesleyan (6), Cortland State (6), Augustana (5), Depauw (4)


Here is the 1st release so we can compare results
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 26, 2010, 10:21:46 am
My biggest outlier continues to be Trine. I have them at #6. I think they play in a horrible conference but are flying below the radar. They have a 3 yr starter at QB and their defense is very solid. If you look at their UWRF box vs UWRF's results vs UWW, ONU and ST Thomas, Trine held up defensively as well as offensively as well or better. That and their playoff progression from 2008 and 2009 makes me a believer, despite the lackluster conference they play in.

I also dropped Wittenberg about 6 spots in my poll (though not completely out yet 70's) and I have Bethel still at #10. If St Thomas is top 5 how can Bethel be much lower than 10?

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 26, 2010, 10:29:05 am
My biggest outlier continues to be Trine. I have them at #6. I think they play in a horrible conference but are flying below the radar. They have a 3 yr starter at QB and their defense is very solid. If you look at their UWRF box vs UWRF's results vs UWW, ONU and ST Thomas, Trine held up defensively as well as offensively as well or better. That and their playoff progression from 2008 and 2009 makes me a believer, despite the lackluster conference they play in.

I also dropped Wittenberg about 6 spots in my poll (though not completely out yet 70's) and I have Bethel still at #10. If St Thomas is top 5 how can Bethel be much lower than 10?


I agree with you on both Bethel. If Bethel wins out, they have to be one of the first few selected for a Pool C bid. As far as Trine, I too have them a little higher than the Fan poll, but I don't know about putting them in the top 10. I don't see them being better than Linfield, Ohio Northern or HSU.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on October 26, 2010, 10:36:15 am
Trine beat UWRF AT RF more handily than ONU beat them in Ada. And Trine gave up 100 fewer yards. That doesn't mean Trine is better but it is an indication they are in the same zip code. I saw Trine in 2008 in the playoffs and they were a talented, well coached team. They didn't retreat from that with decent performance in the 09 playoffs. They have a 3 year starter at QB and a very solid defense, all of whom have 2 years of playoff experience now. I may be wrong but I see them as top 10 right now, despite their conference.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 26, 2010, 11:36:24 am
 I agree that Trine is very difficult to get a handle on based on the competition they play this year. It's not their fault the conference is down anymore than it's Mount Union's fault the OAC appears to be weaker. Even River Falls is so poor that it's hard to use them as a comparison.

I did think that Wittenberg went out of their way to prove me right last weekend
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sju56321 on October 26, 2010, 12:14:28 pm
I guess I would like my team to be overrated-a team that made the playoffs in 05, 06, 07, 08, and 09. Yes, got beat soundly by UWW twice-but who didn't? And, yes, a bad loss from SJU's point of view to Central in '07 in the second round. If the expectation is that SJU is going to the semi-finals or championship each year, then they have failed to perform. If the expectation is to win the conference and play in the playoffs, then not so much...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Lever Street on October 26, 2010, 12:20:50 pm
sju......Linfield doesn't get beat soundly by UWW.  CATS take UWW to the wire each time they play.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 26, 2010, 12:44:44 pm
sju......Linfield doesn't get beat soundly by UWW.  CATS take UWW to the wire each time they play.

same for Mount...but I think I see SJU's point though.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BearcatChatter on October 26, 2010, 06:21:21 pm
Little big of a stiff on Mark Speckman and the Willamette Bearcats. A close loss (and lets face it, that game was ours for the taking) to Hardin-Simmons and an unfortunate day against Linfield, (#s 8 and 10) leaves us out of the top 25? Hogwash, I say. Starting the season with four ranked teams in a row should speak for itself. With a few more challenging games coming up (PLU, Whitworth), expect the Bearcats to find their way back into the rankings.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 26, 2010, 06:39:15 pm
Little big of a stiff on Mark Speckman and the Willamette Bearcats. A close loss (and lets face it, that game was ours for the taking) to Hardin-Simmons and an unfortunate day against Linfield, (#s 8 and 10) leaves us out of the top 25? Hogwash, I say. Starting the season with four ranked teams in a row should speak for itself. With a few more challenging games coming up (PLU, Whitworth), expect the Bearcats to find their way back into the rankings.

If it's any comfort, Willamette was probably my #26. ;)

Quite a brouhaha over on the E8 board about SJF being ranked ahead of Alfred!  (For the record, I had Alfred #22, SJF unranked.)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 26, 2010, 06:54:55 pm
Here's my 25:

1.   Whitewater
2.   North Central
3.   Mount Union
4.   Wesley
5.   St. Thomas
6.   Linfield
7.   Ohio Northern
8.   Mary Hardin Baylor
9.   Wartburg
10.   Central
11.   Wheaton
12.   Delaware Valley
13.   Hardin Simmons
14.   Coe
15.   Thomas More
16.   Montclair State
17.   Hampden Sydney
18.   Trine
19.   Rowan
20.   Cortland State
21.   Bethel
22.   Alfred
23.   Case Western Reserve
24.   Cal Lutheran
25.   Ursinus
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Old IC Voice on October 26, 2010, 07:14:59 pm
Here's my entry:

1) UW-Whitewater
2) Mount Union
3) Wesley
4) North Central
5) St. Thomas
6) Thomas More
7) Wartburg
8) Delaware Valley
9) Mary Hardin-Baylor
10) Wittenberg
11) Montclair State
12) Hardin-Simmons
13) Ohio Northern
14) Cal Lutheran
15) Linfield
16) Hampden-Sydney
17) Bethel
18) Trine
19) Wheaton
20) Coe
21) St. John Fisher
22) Pacific Lutheran
23) Rowan
24) Central
25) Ursinus
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 26, 2010, 07:46:46 pm
25.   Ursinus


Thanks for spelling Ursinus correctly.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wildcat11 on October 26, 2010, 08:10:50 pm
an unfortunate day against Linfield

Translation:  An absolute butt whipping by Linfield.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 28, 2010, 03:24:02 pm
Little big of a stiff on Mark Speckman and the Willamette Bearcats. A close loss (and lets face it, that game was ours for the taking) to Hardin-Simmons and an unfortunate day against Linfield, (#s 8 and 10) leaves us out of the top 25? Hogwash, I say. Starting the season with four ranked teams in a row should speak for itself. With a few more challenging games coming up (PLU, Whitworth), expect the Bearcats to find their way back into the rankings.

Starting the season 2-2, with the fourth game being a 28 point loss creates a perception that takes awhile to overcome. I agree with you, though. If the Bearcats win out the rest of the way, they will likely be back in the top 25.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2010, 09:36:53 pm
K-Mack

Why do you think St John's is consistently over ranked. This year, they have lost three games by less than a TD, two to highly ranked teams, two in OT. The loss to UWEC was early in the season, when weird things happen, and some of those might have been in the officiating realm. (I know that they should not have been in the position where a "bad" call would hurt them, and you have to overcaome, yadda, yadda, yadda......).

Over the past few years, they have either gone deep in the playoffs, or lost relatively close games to the eventual #2 or Champion, in most instances. They were last blown out, when? Give your reasoning if you would. I think I made a fairly strong case for mine.

I guess I would like my team to be overrated-a team that made the playoffs in 05, 06, 07, 08, and 09. Yes, got beat soundly by UWW twice-but who didn't? And, yes, a bad loss from SJU's point of view to Central in '07 in the second round. If the expectation is that SJU is going to the semi-finals or championship each year, then they have failed to perform. If the expectation is to win the conference and play in the playoffs, then not so much...

It would take a little digging for the actual facts for me to properly state my case, but it's not something I just noticed.

It mostly has to do with where St. John's tends to begin a season ranked relative to its peers; in years when they've lost to Bethel or Concordia-Moorhead, St. John's appears at a place in the polls either in the same year or the following year where Bethel or C-M never would. St. Thomas seems to have crossed the respect barrier in a way Bethel really has not been able to.

On one hand, St. John's has earned a degree of respect with Stagg Bowl trips and a championship.

On the other hand, the Johnnies lose conference games more than any other truly elite team. They lost 2 in '04, 1 each in '06 and '07, and 2 in '08, and in that time, I don't think they really ever lost the bump in the poll that comes with having won a championship, even in seasons where other MIAC teams had h2h wins and deserved to be ranked higher.

Long story short, if Bethel or Concordia had the exact same season as St. John's -- undefeated in the MIAC, it was taking them longer to get the respect in the rankings than it was taking SJU, and SJU seemed to get more rope with losses.

In the past two seasons, it seems to have corrected. St. John's deserved its high ranking last season, though it was upset by Coe, it earned its place with wins over other good teams in the regular season, and with three losses this year, they have dropped out of the poll. Also, St. Thomas seems to be getting the respect (perhaps because of playoff success last year) that it took other off-brand MIAC teams longer to earn.

I mentioned earlier somewhere -- it might have been on the podcast, and I don't expect everyone to listen to it in its entirety -- where St. John's might be as strong as it was last year, and just have three close games vs. UWEC, Bethel and STU that it happened to pull out last year and failed to pull out this year.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2010, 11:07:41 pm
K-Mack

Why do you think St John's is consistently over ranked. This year, they have lost three games by less than a TD, two to highly ranked teams, two in OT. The loss to UWEC was early in the season, when weird things happen, and some of those might have been in the officiating realm. (I know that they should not have been in the position where a "bad" call would hurt them, and you have to overcaome, yadda, yadda, yadda......).

Over the past few years, they have either gone deep in the playoffs, or lost relatively close games to the eventual #2 or Champion, in most instances. They were last blown out, when? Give your reasoning if you would. I think I made a fairly strong case for mine.

I guess I would like my team to be overrated-a team that made the playoffs in 05, 06, 07, 08, and 09. Yes, got beat soundly by UWW twice-but who didn't? And, yes, a bad loss from SJU's point of view to Central in '07 in the second round. If the expectation is that SJU is going to the semi-finals or championship each year, then they have failed to perform. If the expectation is to win the conference and play in the playoffs, then not so much...

It would take a little digging for the actual facts for me to properly state my case, but it's not something I just noticed.

It mostly has to do with where St. John's tends to begin a season ranked relative to its peers; in years when they've lost to Bethel or Concordia-Moorhead, St. John's appears at a place in the polls either in the same year or the following year where Bethel or C-M never would. St. Thomas seems to have crossed the respect barrier in a way Bethel really has not been able to.

On one hand, St. John's has earned a degree of respect with Stagg Bowl trips and a championship.

On the other hand, the Johnnies lose conference games more than any other truly elite team. They lost 2 in '04, 1 each in '06 and '07, and 2 in '08, and in that time, I don't think they really ever lost the bump in the poll that comes with having won a championship, even in seasons where other MIAC teams had h2h wins and deserved to be ranked higher.

Long story short, if Bethel or Concordia had the exact same season as St. John's -- undefeated in the MIAC, it was taking them longer to get the respect in the rankings than it was taking SJU, and SJU seemed to get more rope with losses.

In the past two seasons, it seems to have corrected. St. John's deserved its high ranking last season, though it was upset by Coe, it earned its place with wins over other good teams in the regular season, and with three losses this year, they have dropped out of the poll. Also, St. Thomas seems to be getting the respect (perhaps because of playoff success last year) that it took other off-brand MIAC teams longer to earn.

I mentioned earlier somewhere -- it might have been on the podcast, and I don't expect everyone to listen to it in its entirety -- where St. John's might be as strong as it was last year, and just have three close games vs. UWEC, Bethel and STU that it happened to pull out last year and failed to pull out this year.
I  think that is how close it is in D-III from #18 to #40.  The 40th best team is not getting the "noise" votes that allow a team to get 30 points on 12 ballots (and being omitted on 13 others.)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on October 28, 2010, 11:10:14 pm
I don't do the rankings, and the fact that a win over SJU doesn't seem to carry a whole lot of water is puzzling to me. You also only looked at recent years. Their entire body of work over your lifetime maybe actually means something to some people.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2010, 11:43:34 pm
I don't do the rankings, and the fact that a win over SJU doesn't seem to carry a whole lot of water is puzzling to me. You also only looked at recent years. Their entire body of work over your lifetime maybe actually means something to some people.

Well first off, you asked me to clarify a statement I made, using a word I used. By 'consistently' I meant for several years in a row after the Johnnies came down off their championship high. I didn't mean since they were in NAIA.

Second, I would argue that the farther back you go in history, the less relevant it is to this year. St. John was national champion the year I was born, but I don't know what that has to do with whether they should've been ranked 10th or 20th during a particular week in 2007.

Third, I think a win over SJU does carry weight, and teams that beat them should get bumped up the poll accordingly, assuming the rest of their results also cooperate (unlike, say, a UWEC this year).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on October 29, 2010, 07:55:51 am
In my opinion as a Mount guy, a win over St John's today carries about the same weight as beating Ohio Northern or Augustana.  Good, solid, well coached team with a good name that will beat you if you play poorly, but not a true threat to beat you if you play well.  The same of which could be said about 20 or 30 teams across the nation.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 29, 2010, 08:40:56 am
In my opinion as a Mount guy, a win over St John's today carries about the same weight as beating Ohio Northern or Augustana.  Good, solid, well coached team with a good name that will beat you if you play poorly, but not a true threat to beat you if you play well.  The same of which could be said about 20 or 30 teams across the nation.


Well, THAT won't go over so well HSCoach!  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sju56321 on October 29, 2010, 09:23:49 am
I agree-I have sometimes wondered how SJU is ranked at the beginning of a year. I think all teams should be evaluated based on the players they lose to graduation-obviously, UWW and Mount are replacing those very well of late, or with Mount the last 15 years.
Unfortunately for us SJU backers, SJU is only a solid team this year, not an elite team.
As I posted earlier, not sure if SJU is one the consistently overrated teams if you look to winning the conference and making the playoffs. Now, if you are talking about the "ranking" in your poll, then you might have an argument, along with many other teams, except for UWW and Mount. Hasn't the thought always been that absent those two, any one of ten or so teams could win the championship? It is pretty much a guess, maybe educated, as to the remainder of the top ten, you could probably switch #3 for #10 and make a good argument.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 29, 2010, 03:05:43 pm
I agree-I have sometimes wondered how SJU is ranked at the beginning of a year. I think all teams should be evaluated based on the players they lose to graduation-obviously, UWW and Mount are replacing those very well of late, or with Mount the last 15 years.
Unfortunately for us SJU backers, SJU is only a solid team this year, not an elite team.
As I posted earlier, not sure if SJU is one the consistently overrated teams if you look to winning the conference and making the playoffs. Now, if you are talking about the "ranking" in your poll, then you might have an argument, along with many other teams, except for UWW and Mount. Hasn't the thought always been that absent those two, any one of ten or so teams could win the championship? It is pretty much a guess, maybe educated, as to the remainder of the top ten, you could probably switch #3 for #10 and make a good argument.

I agree in principle, but I think two or three of the 3-10 teams might be a bit above interchangeable with #10. However, given the "any given Saturday" possibilities, I also think those 8 teams have a shot at winning the Championship with UW-W and Mount present as well. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on October 29, 2010, 04:56:49 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 29, 2010, 05:41:00 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

I don't think the SJF/AU game cleared anything up, if anything it muddled the picture even more...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 29, 2010, 06:47:47 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on October 31, 2010, 05:59:55 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 31, 2010, 06:13:48 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on October 31, 2010, 06:43:12 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 31, 2010, 09:11:29 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 31, 2010, 09:35:43 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D

Though paper might make a better surface than some fields I've seen! :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 01, 2010, 07:39:51 am
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D

Though paper might make a better surface than some fields I've seen! :D

Like right here in Alma! Thank god for the new turf next season!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 01, 2010, 09:27:40 am
The turf makes such a huge difference.  Especially late in the year. If there have been a couple of "weather games" over the course of a season, grass fields can get pretty tore up by the end of the year. Before the Field Turf, I know in  playoff games, I was always concerned with the D-Line's ability to get the traction necessary to rush the passer when a passing team would come to town.  Now it's less of a variable. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on November 01, 2010, 02:13:22 pm
Of course, it doesn't matter what turf is down if there are six inches of snow on top of it.   :)

(http://www.wabash.edu/images2/photo_album/1399/main_CPPorter1.jpg)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 01, 2010, 02:32:06 pm
Of course, it doesn't matter what turf is down if there are six inches of snow on top of it.   :)

(http://www.wabash.edu/images2/photo_album/1399/main_CPPorter1.jpg)

that day I soon won't forget. a lot of fun!! (Then again, I didn't have to drive back to Indiana though  ;) )

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 01, 2010, 06:14:49 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D

Though paper might make a better surface than some fields I've seen! :D

Like right here in Alma! Thank god for the new turf next season!

True Story... my career ended partly because of Alma's crappy turf back in 1999.  I got sacked by Justin Harris (can be verified by formerd3db who was the doctor that day) and between how hard he hit me and when I hit the concrete you call "turf", I sustained a grade 3 concussion and forgot who I was for a few hours.  Because of my concussion history, the doctors never let me play again.  This was week 5 in the 1999 season and Pat Coleman still has a picture of "the hit"... which was on Alma's program cover in 2000.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 01, 2010, 07:15:39 pm
(http://www.alma.edu/repository/athletics/09dFBPurple3.jpg)

This probably wasn't much fun - Adrian @ Hope 2009
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 01, 2010, 07:21:27 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D

Though paper might make a better surface than some fields I've seen! :D

Like right here in Alma! Thank god for the new turf next season!

True Story... my career ended partly because of Alma's crappy turf back in 1999.  I got sacked by Justin Harris (can be verified by formerd3db who was the doctor that day) and between how hard he hit me and when I hit the concrete you call "turf", I sustained a grade 3 concussion and forgot who I was for a few hours.  Because of my concussion history, the doctors never let me play again.  This was week 5 in the 1999 season and Pat Coleman still has a picture of "the hit"... which was on Alma's program cover in 2000.

I'll have to dig that program up...we have to have it somewhere. Earlier this summer I found a basketball program with Tom Crean as a coach here....

Was this our 48-28 win over Olivet on 10/9/99?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on November 01, 2010, 07:30:04 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D

Though paper might make a better surface than some fields I've seen! :D

Like right here in Alma! Thank god for the new turf next season!

True Story... my career ended partly because of Alma's crappy turf back in 1999.  I got sacked by Justin Harris (can be verified by formerd3db who was the doctor that day) and between how hard he hit me and when I hit the concrete you call "turf", I sustained a grade 3 concussion and forgot who I was for a few hours.  Because of my concussion history, the doctors never let me play again.  This was week 5 in the 1999 season and Pat Coleman still has a picture of "the hit"... which was on Alma's program cover in 2000.

Which were the best few hours of his entire life.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 01, 2010, 07:51:35 pm
Let's hope the Montclair-Cortland game clears things up better than the Saint John Fisher-Alfred game did. To the Willamette remarks, I totally believe that they are capable of knocking off anybody in 15-25

And if the East wants any hope of a #1 Seed, Montclair needs to win it.

Opps, now what?   Mount packing it's bags and heading east?   ;)

Nah - the #1 seed doesn't have to pack bags and travel anywhere! ;D

But east teams can just about start packing for Alliance. ;)
LOL, I meant on paper, of course, Mr Yspi   :D

You never talk about what's on paper, cuz they don't play football on paper... ;D

Though paper might make a better surface than some fields I've seen! :D

Like right here in Alma! Thank god for the new turf next season!

True Story... my career ended partly because of Alma's crappy turf back in 1999.  I got sacked by Justin Harris (can be verified by formerd3db who was the doctor that day) and between how hard he hit me and when I hit the concrete you call "turf", I sustained a grade 3 concussion and forgot who I was for a few hours.  Because of my concussion history, the doctors never let me play again.  This was week 5 in the 1999 season and Pat Coleman still has a picture of "the hit"... which was on Alma's program cover in 2000.

Which were the best few hours of his entire life.

I'm sure they were after a hit like that!

You all see the hit Jacorey Harris took for the Canes on Saturday? Ouch!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPFoTYmvNO0&feature=related
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 02, 2010, 11:28:49 am
This week's D3 Top 25 Fan Poll has been released!

www.uwwfootball.blogspot.com
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on November 02, 2010, 11:31:19 am
1. UW-Whitewater (20)  500
2. Mount Union   478
3. Wesley     444
4. North Central    440
5. St. Thomas  428
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor  392
7. Delaware Valley   343
8. Hardin-Simmons  324
9. Ohio Northern   312
10. Linfield     304
11. Wartburg    286
12. Thomas More   275
13. Wheaton     261
14. Wittenberg    240
15. Trine     227
16. Bethel     190
17. Coe      189
18. Hampden-Sidney  168
19. Central     151
20. California Lutheran 121
21. Depaw     62
22. St. John Fisher   54
23. Wabash    44
24. Cortland St.    41
25. Montclair St.   41




Also Receiving Votes: Franklin (36), Rowan (36), Salisbury (11), Willamette (11), Case Western Reserve (4), Washington University (3), Alfred (2), Ursinus (2), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Williams (1)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 02, 2010, 11:46:52 am

Which were the best few hours of his entire life.

easy there big fella..

No... it was Thomas More 1999.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 02, 2010, 12:41:19 pm
1. UW-Whitewater (20)  500
2. Mount Union   478
3. Wesley     444
4. North Central    440
5. St. Thomas  428
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor  392
7. Delaware Valley   343
8. Hardin-Simmons  324
9. Ohio Northern   312
10. Linfield     304
11. Wartburg    286
12. Thomas More   275
13. Wheaton     261
14. Wittenberg    240
15. Trine     227
16. Bethel     190
17. Coe      189
18. Hampden-Sydney  168
19. Central     151
20. California Lutheran 121
21. Depauw     62
22. St. John Fisher   54
23. Wabash    44
24. Cortland St.    41
25. Montclair St.   41




Also Receiving Votes: Franklin (36), Rowan (36), Salisbury (11), Willamette (11), Case Western Reserve (4), Washington University (3), Alfred (2), Ursinus (2), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Williams (1)

some minor spelling corrections  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on November 02, 2010, 12:47:40 pm
Here is the actual poll

D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

1. UW-Whitewater (20) 500
2. Mt. Union     479
3. Wesley    453
4. North Central   435
5. St. Thomas   417
6. UMHB    394
7. Delaware Valley  336
8. Hardin-Simmons  318
9. Ohio Northern   305
10. Linfield    300
11. Wartburg    288
12. Wittenberg   269
13. Thomas More   264
14 Wheaton    242
15. Montclair St.   233
16. Trine    210
17. Coe     169
18. Bethel    167
19. Central 134
20. Hampden-Sydney  133
21. California Lutheran  90
22. Ursinas     84
23. St. John Fisher   56
24. Alfred     46
Pacific Lutheran 46

Dropped Out: Case Western Reserve

Others receiving votes: Case Western Reserve (36), Depauw (21), Rowan (17), Wabash (17), Franklin (16), Cortland St. (12), Willamette (8), Augustana (4)

last week's poll for comparison
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 02, 2010, 01:41:18 pm
Bash away...

1- UW-Whitewater
2- Mount Union
3- Wesley
4- St. Thomas
5- North Central
6- Mary Hardin Baylor
7- Hardin-Simmons
8- Delaware Valley
9- Ohio Northern
10- Linfield
11- Wittenberg
12- Wartburg
13- Thomas More
14- Coe
15- Wheaton
16- Central
17- Trine
18- Bethel
19- Cal Lutheran
20- St. John Fisher
21- Pac Lutheran
22- Hamden Sydney
23- Rowan
24- Cortland
25- Montclair

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 02, 2010, 02:26:40 pm
Hi everyone!
-
I have redone the D3 Top 25 Fan Poll.  I apologize for the two mis-spellings and for the team I left off the Top 25 ENTIRELY!  I am going to have to change the brand of coffee I drink.  ??? ???  

So anyway, here is the accurate Top 25 for this week:

D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

1. UW-Whitewater (20)   500
2. Mount Union     478
3. Wesley       444
4. North Central      440
5. St. Thomas   428
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor  392
7. Delaware Valley   343
8. Hardin-Simmons  324
9. Ohio Northern   312
10. Linfield     304
11. Wartburg    286
12. Thomas More   275
13. Wheaton     261
14. Wittenberg    240
15. Trine     227
16. Bethel     190
17. Coe      189
18. Hampden-Sydney  168
19. Central     151
20. California Lutheran 121
21. Pacific Lutheran 66
22. Depauw      62
23. St. John Fisher    54
24. Wabash     44
25. Cortland St.     41
Montclair St.    41

Also Receiving Votes: Franklin (36), Rowan (36), Salisbury (11), Willamette (11), Case Western Reserve (4), Washington University (3), Alfred (2), Ursinus (2), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Williams (1)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 02, 2010, 08:56:58 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 02, 2010, 09:12:51 pm
Complaining about them being #15 while the D-3 top 25 has them at #14?

Sflzman doth protest too much methinks!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 02, 2010, 09:56:14 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???

I apologize; probably my fault. :P

Despite my MIAA proclivities, I only have them 16th.  The rest of the conference has GOT to step up - I have NO idea whether Trine is 6th or 26th.

Now if Trine had played Adrian's non-con schedule, and was undefeated, I'd have them #1! ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 02, 2010, 10:00:39 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???

My guess is the conference they play in hurts them. I know D3football.com's Kickoff ranks the MIAC 23rd out of 27 conferences.

Mr Y posted as I was typing this. In other words, "What he said..."  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 02, 2010, 10:04:33 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???

For the record, Trine was listed on all 20 ballots. Their high ranking was 6, their low was 24.  Twelve of twenty ballots had Trine ranked in the top 15.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 02, 2010, 10:12:40 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???

For the record, Trine was listed on all 20 ballots. Their high ranking was 6, their low was 24.  Twelve of twenty ballots had Trine ranked in the top 15.

Wow, a range of 6 to 24 - almost the exact range I pulled out of my ass! ;D

Trine is like Thomas More (or CWRU until they got beat) - they are obviously good, but who the hell knows HOW good until they play somebody! :P
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 02, 2010, 10:13:22 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???

My guess is the conference they play in hurts them. I know D3football.com's Kickoff ranks the MIAC 23rd out of 27 conferences.

Mr Y posted as I was typing this. In other words, "What he said..."  ;D

MIAA, not MIAC.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 02, 2010, 10:52:13 pm
this was what I submitted:

UWW
Mount Union
Wesley
North Central
St. Thomas
Linfield
Wittenberg
MHB
Harden Simmons
D. Valley
Thomas More
Trine
Ohio Northern
Wheaton
Wartburg
Coe
Central
Hampden-Sydney
Cal Lutheran
Bethel
Pacific Lutheran
DePauw
Wabash
Willamette
Franklin
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on November 02, 2010, 11:03:11 pm
My week 9 ballot FWIW...

1    Whitewater
2    Mount Union
3    Wesley
4    North Central
5    St. Thomas
6    UMHB
7    Wheaton
8    Hampden-Sydney
9    Delaware Valley
10    Wartburg
11    Hardiin-Simmons
12    Coe
13    Ohio Northern
14    Cal Lutheran
15    Linfield
16    Bethel
17    St. John Fisher
18    Trine
19    Thomas More
20    Wittenberg
21    Central
22    Montclair State
23    Rowan
24    Cortland State
25    DePauw
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 02, 2010, 11:09:27 pm
How has Trine failed to crack the top 15 ???

My guess is the conference they play in hurts them. I know D3football.com's Kickoff ranks the MIAC 23rd out of 27 conferences.

Mr Y posted as I was typing this. In other words, "What he said..."  ;D

MIAA, not MIAC.

My mistake, thanks Pat. I knew I should have double checked Kickoff before posting the acronym!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on November 02, 2010, 11:55:14 pm
In 2008 Trine made the playoffs and played Wheaton very tough but lost by 14 to the semifinalists. In 2009 they won their opening round handily and competed w Witt in round 2 before falling. They have many of that group back this year including their qb who played in both playoff seasons. If you believe Trine is a better team than they were a year ago and can win 2 playoff games, then they should be in your top 10. I have them at #6 on my ballot. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 03, 2010, 07:35:55 am
I had Trine at 9

1. UW-Whitewater
2. Mount Union
3. Wesley
4. North Central
5. Mary Hardin-Baylor
6. Delaware Valley
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
8. St. Thomas
9. Trine
10. ONU
11. Linfield
12. Wittenberg
13. Thomas More
14. Coe
15. Wartburg
16. Wheaton
17. Central
18. Hampden-Sidney
19. Cal Lutheran
20. Bethel
21. DePauw
22. Pacific Lutheran
23. WashU
24. Ursinus
25. Walliamette
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 03, 2010, 08:13:35 am
In 2008 Trine made the playoffs and played Wheaton very tough but lost by 14 to the semifinalists. In 2009 they won their opening round handily and competed w Witt in round 2 before falling. They have many of that group back this year including their qb who played in both playoff seasons. If you believe Trine is a better team than they were a year ago and can win 2 playoff games, then they should be in your top 10. I have them at #6 on my ballot. 

That's definitely one line of thinking.  The more skeptical view would be that Trine got shut out by a two loss (three eventually) Wheaton team in 2008. In 2009, they beat an equally mysterious Case Western Reserve before losing to Wittenberg by 17 points.  The next week Witt lost at UW-W by 18. I was at the UW-W/Witt game and it was definitely more competitive than the final score might indicate. While you might be right about Trine this year, given the lack of data, 15th doesn't appear all that irrational. Another interesting note is that while Trine sits at 15, the teams that beat them the last two years in the playoffs (Wheaton and Witt) are #13 and #14 respectively.  That doesn't seem out of line.

The good news is that Trine will have every opportunity to prove you right in November!  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 03, 2010, 08:22:36 am
"Also Receiving Votes: Franklin (36), Rowan (36), Salisbury (11), Willamette (11), Case Western Reserve (4), Washington University (3), Alfred (2), Ursinus (2), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Williams (1)"

There's an excellent article by Tom Haley on Williams in this week's "Around the Region".  After reading it, it's really interesting to me that Williams got a vote before either SUNY-Maritime and Amherst.  One of our pollsters must be doing a good job of flying "..Under the Radar" to find them.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 03, 2010, 12:04:51 pm
I was low on Trine at 24.

I have my reasons.

I still think of them as Tri-State. (OK, no, that's not it...)

Actually, I'm influenced quite a bit by the Massey ratings for teams in the lower 1/2 (but not solely, of course). Trine is 39th with a SOS rating of 180 there.

The main reason is that I think all of the teams ahead of them can beat Trine 6 times out of 10 at least.

1. UW - Whitewater
2. Mt. Union
3. Wesley
4. North Central
5. St. Thomas
6. Mary Hardin-Baylor
7. Wartburg
8. Wheaton
9. Hardin - Simmons
10. Delaware Valley
11. Ohio Northern
12. Wittenberg
13. Linfield
14. Bethel
15. Thomas More
16. St. John Fisher
17. Hampden - Sydney
18. Central (IA)
19. Coe
20. Montclair State
21. Wabash
22. DePauw
23. Pacific Lutheran
24. Trine
25. Baldwin - Wallace
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: HScoach on November 03, 2010, 12:11:23 pm
I had Trine at 17.  Playing Witt tough doesn't score any points in my book.

1.   Whitewater
2.   North Central
3.   Mount Union
4.   St. Thomas
5.   Wesley
6.   Linfield
7.   Ohio Northern
8.   Mary Hardin Baylor
9.   Wartburg
10.   Central
11.   Wheaton
12.   Delaware Valley
13.   Hardin Simmons
14.   Coe
15.   Thomas More
16.   Hampden Sydney
17.   Trine
18.   Rowan
19.   Cortland State
20.   Bethel
21.   Montclair State
22.   Case Western Reserve
23.   Cal Lutheran
24.   St. John Fisher
25.   DePauw
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on November 03, 2010, 12:20:22 pm
HSC-
I'll play devils advocate here for a second. How do you have Bethel ranked 20 and St Thomas at #5? Bethel held them to their lowest pt total of the year and lost 10-6 AT St Thomas. Seems like too big a spread. Also, How do you have Case at #22 and Witt not ranked? 70's envy? Case lost to Chicago (who got thumped by Wabash and Elmhurst) and Witt is undefeated (albeit barely) and has a win over Trine from last years team (who beat case).  As for Trine playing Witt tough, they don't have to beat Mt Union to be ranked in the top 10. I think Trine would easily beat at least 6 teams you have ahead of them.

You like apples?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 03, 2010, 12:40:02 pm
maybe he'll give Witt some love if they beat Wabash this weekend.

I don't think one should take into consideration what teams did in previous seasons...but that's just me.

HSC-
I'll play devils advocate here for a second. How do you have Bethel ranked 20 and St Thomas at #5? Bethel held them to their lowest pt total of the year and lost 10-6 AT St Thomas. Seems like too big a spread. Also, How do you have Case at #22 and Witt not ranked? 70's envy? Case lost to Chicago (who got thumped by Wabash and Elmhurst) and Witt is undefeated (albeit barely) and has a win over Trine from last years team (who beat case).  As for Trine playing Witt tough, they don't have to beat Mt Union to be ranked in the top 10. I think Trine would easily beat at least 6 teams you have ahead of them.

You like apples?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: oldtiger on November 03, 2010, 01:37:59 pm
Just FYI Witt-Trine was 27-7 at the half. Wasn't all that close.

http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/football/statistics/09statistics/NCAA2.HTM
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on November 03, 2010, 02:19:32 pm
maybe he'll give Witt some love if they beat Wabash this weekend.

Smedindy mentions the strength of schedule stats from Massey. He ranks Wittenberg's "played" schedule 207 and remaining schedule 169.


I accept the fact that you can only play the teams on your schedule but as a newbie voter I can say having a very weak schedule leads us to talking about last year and other irrelevant topics. We can only judge the body of work that the team has displayed. Yes there are still certain intangibles to consider otherwise Mount Union could be anywhere in the top 10. It's those intangibles that even got Trine into the top 15, certainly not who they beat.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 03, 2010, 02:41:10 pm
I don't think one should take into consideration what teams did in previous seasons...but that's just me.

It's interesting to discuss the different philosophies people use in determining their ballots.  I would think it would be hard to look at the current season in a complete vacuum.  For example, it's hard to believe UW-W would be a unanimous #1 choice if Mount Union had won the Stagg Bowl last year!  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on November 03, 2010, 02:59:56 pm
I agree you shouldn't consider what teams did in previous seasons but that cannot be an absolute. If you are considering how many players a team has returning isn't that, in a sense, about last season? The reality is you can't completely separate one year from the next. In an ideal world you can and we certainly try to but it's really not possible. But clearly it plays into everyone's bias. HOw else do you explain the difference in ranking between St Thomas and Bethel? Or the respect the poll gives St Johns every year? One of the reason's we know a team, or a conference, is any good is what they have traditionally done in the post season from past years. Now, for Trine, I happen to have seen them all Live and am very comfortable with my assessment of those teams. I understand why others have them ranked differently. I may be proven wrong but I am certain there are other teams who will lose early or win late that will prove each of us wrong. that's why we have this board and this process.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on November 03, 2010, 04:01:26 pm
I don't think one should take into consideration what teams did in previous seasons...but that's just me.

It's interesting to discuss the different philosophies people use in determining their ballots.  I would think it would be hard to look at the current season in a complete vacuum.  For example, it's hard to believe UW-W would be a unanimous #1 choice if Mount Union had won the Stagg Bowl last year!  ;)

Ya got me there. So there are also a couple of "tangibles"
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 04, 2010, 09:40:48 pm
maybe he'll give Witt some love if they beat Wabash this weekend.

Smedindy mentions the strength of schedule stats from Massey. He ranks Wittenberg's "played" schedule 207 and remaining schedule 169.


I accept the fact that you can only play the teams on your schedule but as a newbie voter I can say having a very weak schedule leads us to talking about last year and other irrelevant topics. We can only judge the body of work that the team has displayed. Yes there are still certain intangibles to consider otherwise Mount Union could be anywhere in the top 10. It's those intangibles that even got Trine into the top 15, certainly not who they beat.

I don't figure last year at all into the equation, especially now. It is the body of work. And I don't like Trine's as much as I like others.

I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2010, 11:26:39 pm
I agree-I have sometimes wondered how SJU is ranked at the beginning of a year. I think all teams should be evaluated based on the players they lose to graduation-obviously, UWW and Mount are replacing those very well of late, or with Mount the last 15 years.

Yeah, one of the best tools our voters have is a spreadsheet with how many back at each position, key injuries returnees, all americans, HC/OC/DC changes. It's a great tool for getting a feel for who among last year's top 25 can and can't repeat. So is Kickoff. I mean we saw Albright not going back to the playoffs, and we saw Ursinus coming, for instance. Sometimes even we're suprised.

As I posted earlier, not sure if SJU is one the consistently overrated teams if you look to winning the conference and making the playoffs. Now, if you are talking about the "ranking" in your poll, then you might have an argument

Well since this thread is the "Top 25 Fan Poll" thread, and the phrase in question is "overranked" and not "overrated," yes, we are talking about rankings.

Hasn't the thought always been that absent those two, any one of ten or so teams could win the championship? It is pretty much a guess, maybe educated, as to the remainder of the top ten, you could probably switch #3 for #10 and make a good argument.

Not quite. There's the 1 and 2, and then there's maybe four or six more teams that could be semifinalists in a good year. For a while UMHB was a clear No. 3. Wesley seems to have assumed that mantle, even if some of us don't have the Wolverines at 3 in our individual ballots, they are the clear national 3 most of the past 2 seasons. And justified it.

Then after that, maybe from 8 to somewhere in the teens is another tier, and then maybe 16 to 35 are more interchangable. I don't think 3 and 10 are interchangeable by any means.

Certainly people could argue about where the tiers begin and end, and the arugments would probably be valid.

I really need to find and re-link Gordon's tiers post. Broke it down very well.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2010, 11:33:35 pm
The turf makes such a huge difference.  Especially late in the year. If there have been a couple of "weather games" over the course of a season, grass fields can get pretty tore up by the end of the year. Before the Field Turf, I know in  playoff games, I was always concerned with the D-Line's ability to get the traction necessary to rush the passer when a passing team would come to town.  Now it's less of a variable. 

And, as teams have gone to it almost without fail over the past 10 years, it's less of a variable from field to field.

All 39 games in my career were on grass. These days, grass I think is the anomaly. And like you said, it (no pun intended) levels the playing field late in the season.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on November 05, 2010, 12:35:32 am
We can only judge the body of work that the team has displayed. Yes there are still certain intangibles to consider otherwise Mount Union could be anywhere in the top 10. It's those intangibles that even got Trine into the top 15, certainly not who they beat.

Wait, so you can only judge the body of work AND intangibles?

In other words, a team can be whatever you think it should be?

Because I agree that you should mostly focus on this year's body of work. And with regard to weak schedules, while you shouldn't penalize the Witts and Trines of the world, you are comparing them to other unbeaten teams who have played good opponents, so that's why they don't stack up. In the playoffs they might prove to be better, but until they play someone good, how can you know?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on November 05, 2010, 11:41:07 am
All 39 games in my career were on grass. These days, grass I think is the anomaly. And like you said, it (no pun intended) levels the playing field late in the season.

I know that Wabash will have played all 10 of their games this season without a single grass stained uniform.  10 games, not one single blade of natural grass.  I feel like this shouldn't shock me given the trend, but for some reason it does.  And I'm sure Wabash isn't the only school who plays every game on synth turf. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on November 05, 2010, 12:23:52 pm
I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

And that's where it comes down to the individuals own logic, I have Trine in and Witt out because I figured if Trine's opponents where uniformly better across the board they would probably have faired as well as far as victories. Applying that logic to Wittenberg's schedule, I perceive them losing 1,2, or 3 games.

I do have to say that who ever comes out as the victor of the Bash - Witt game pushes some of the outliers out of the top 25 at least on my spreadsheet
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: jam40jeff on November 05, 2010, 01:10:56 pm
I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt? ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 06, 2010, 01:05:17 am
I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt? ;)

Voodoo...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 06, 2010, 09:26:54 am
Lots of games today that could make for some Top 25 re-shuffling! Should be a fun day!  :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 06, 2010, 10:21:09 am
Lots of games today that could make for some Top 25 re-shuffling! Should be a fun day!  :D

What day is not fun when there's football to play?  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 08, 2010, 04:00:18 pm
Lots of games today that could make for some Top 25 re-shuffling! Should be a fun day!  :D

What day is not fun when there's football to play?  ;D

11/13 for LaCrosse football players... ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on November 08, 2010, 11:27:54 pm
I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt? ;)

Voodoo...

I grudgingly allowed Witt into the Top 25 this week, or actually the Bottom of the 25

NOTE: The D3 Fan Poll will not be published till Wednesday this week
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 09, 2010, 12:17:00 pm
I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt? ;)

Voodoo...

I grudgingly allowed Witt into the Top 25 this week, or actually the Bottom of the 25

NOTE: The D3 Fan Poll will not be published till Wednesday this week

Ur saying u haven't had Witt in a poll yet before this one? I had them at 7, then 9, then 12, and they stayed at 12 this week....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 09, 2010, 01:58:44 pm
I had a tough time finding my 25th team this week. I ended up plugging in Muhlenberg, one of their two losses was to D. Valley.

Muhlenberg's resume:

Record: 7-2
SOS: 50th (very respectable)
Conference rank: 12th (above average)
Centennial Conference Champs

I was semi-surprised they didn't receive votes in D3's top 25....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 09, 2010, 03:28:01 pm
This week's D3 Top 25 Fan Poll has been released!

www.uwwfootball.blogspot.com

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 09, 2010, 03:54:30 pm
In case people refuse to go into a Warhawk supported site  ;).

D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

1. UWW (20)  500
2. Mount Union  478
3. North Central  453
4. Wesley   439
5. St. Thomas  418
6. UMHB   397
7. Delaware Valley 351
8. Hardin-Simmons 338
9. Ohio Northern  325
10. Linfield   314
11. Wartburg   297
12. Wittenberg  274
13. Trine   260
14. Thomas More  249
15. Bethel   223
16. Coe    206
17. Wheaton   186
18. Cal. Lutheran  149
19. Depauw   111
20. Pac. Lutheran 105
21. Central   86
22. Cortland State 75
23. Rowan    67
24. Montclair  54
25. Franklin   48

Dropped Out: #23 St. John Fisher, #24 Wabash

Also receiving votes: Hampden-Sydney (34), St. John Fisher (20), Willamette (19), Washington U (5), Salisbury(4),Wabash(4),Williams(4), Alfred (2), Illinois Wesleyan (2), Albion (1), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Muhlenberg (1)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 09, 2010, 04:23:37 pm
Trine continues to climb, slowly but surely
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FarAwayCat on November 09, 2010, 05:47:08 pm
Nice, i didn't realize you had a chat area setup for this.  Much easier to comment although I'll still probably only check it once a week.  Thanks for setting this up.  Intriguing.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Old IC Voice on November 09, 2010, 05:56:56 pm
For the record, the lack of a complete poll is totally my fault. I've been totally swamped at work and forgot about this. My apologies to my fellow pollsters and those following.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 09, 2010, 06:28:42 pm
For the record, the lack of a complete poll is totally my fault. I've been totally swamped at work and forgot about this. My apologies to my fellow pollsters and those following.

Actually, the most responsibility you can assume is 25%. But I found a way to keep the points and differential in perspective.  I calculated the ballots received and determined the top 25 from them. Then with the 4 missing ballots, I submitted ballots with those 25 teams in order.  That way the results of the submitted ballots and the differential weren't compromised and the points total could be consistent from week to week.  Hopefully, next week we can get all 20 once again.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 09, 2010, 06:58:22 pm
For the record, the lack of a complete poll is totally my fault. I've been totally swamped at work and forgot about this. My apologies to my fellow pollsters and those following.

Actually, the most responsibility you can assume is 25%. But I found a way to keep the points and differential in perspective.  I calculated the ballots received and determined the top 25 from them. Then with the 4 missing ballots, I submitted ballots with those 25 teams in order.  That way the results of the submitted ballots and the differential weren't compromised and the points total could be consistent from week to week.  Hopefully, next week we can get all 20 once again.

I have a simpler solution.  Let me know how many ballots you're missing, and I'll supply the remainder!  (Yes, I grew up knowing the "Chicago mantra": vote early and vote often! ;D)

I'll even vary some of my ballots, since I don't always agree with myself! ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 09, 2010, 07:10:29 pm
bleedpurple, while your solution has some good qualities for week-to-week comparisons, it does also have the downside of potentially inflating differential between teams.  Looking at the closest margin in this week's poll, DePauw presumably beat out Pac Lu by two points.  By submitting 4 'ghost' ballots with DePauw 19th and Pac Lu 20th, their margin rose to six points.  Four actual ballots would have been unlikely to have that particular margin (and, being that close with 16 real ballots, might well have resulted in Pac Lu ahead of DePauw).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 09, 2010, 07:50:56 pm
bleedpurple, while your solution has some good qualities for week-to-week comparisons, it does also have the downside of potentially inflating differential between teams.  Looking at the closest margin in this week's poll, DePauw presumably beat out Pac Lu by two points.  By submitting 4 'ghost' ballots with DePauw 19th and Pac Lu 20th, their margin rose to six points.  Four actual ballots would have been unlikely to have that particular margin (and, being that close with 16 real ballots, might well have resulted in Pac Lu ahead of DePauw).

That's true, I know you don't want to vary the number of points each week, but I would have to agree with Mr Ypsi, you seperate each couple of teams....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 09, 2010, 07:52:41 pm
However, since this isn't *gospel* and it's the last week before the playoffs, I'm not bothered.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 09, 2010, 08:50:57 pm
However, since this isn't *gospel* and it's the last week before the playoffs, I'm not bothered.

I'm not bothered either.  Just wanted to point out the mathematical downside to his solution.  Personally, I think the solution in my previous post would be preferable! ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: criswyly on November 09, 2010, 08:52:02 pm
Linfield belongs in the top five easily....all well informed d3 followers should know that.  But I guess they don't.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: WashUDad on November 09, 2010, 09:12:40 pm
LOL  I guess that is why they aren't ranked in the top 10 in D3Football's poll or AFCA's poll either.
Linfield belongs in the top five easily....all well informed d3 followers should know that.  But I guess they don't.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 09, 2010, 10:14:32 pm
Good points on the differential. Here is the Actual:


1. UWW (16)  400
2. Mount Union  382
3. North Central  361
4. Wesley   351
5. St. Thomas  334
6. UMHB   317
7. Delaware Valley 275
8. Hardin-Simmons 266
9. Ohio Northern  257
10. Linfield   250
11. Wartburg   237
12. Wittenberg  218
13. Trine   208
14. Thomas More  201
15. Bethel   179
16. Coe    166
17. Wheaton   150
18. Cal. Lutheran  117
19. Depauw   83
20. Pac. Lutheran 81
21. Central   66
22. Cortland State 59
23. Rowan    55
24. Montclair  46
25. Franklin   44

Dropped Out: #23 St. John Fisher, #24 Wabash

Also receiving votes: Hampden-Sydney (34), St. John Fisher (20), Willamette (19), Washington U (5), Salisbury(4),Wabash(4),Williams(4), Alfred (2), Illinois Wesleyan (2), Albion (1), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Muhlenberg (1)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 10, 2010, 07:37:54 am
Well, I must be reading this completely differently cuz I have 5 teams in my poll, not on the overall top 25  ???
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 10, 2010, 07:58:28 am
Good points on the differential. Here is the Actual:


1. UWW (16)  400
2. Mount Union  382
3. North Central  361
4. Wesley   351
5. St. Thomas  334
6. UMHB   317
7. Delaware Valley 275
8. Hardin-Simmons 266
9. Ohio Northern  257
10. Linfield   250
11. Wartburg   237
12. Wittenberg  218
13. Trine   208
14. Thomas More  201
15. Bethel   179
16. Coe    166
17. Wheaton   150
18. Cal. Lutheran  117
19. Depauw   83
20. Pac. Lutheran 81
21. Central   66
22. Cortland State 59
23. Rowan    55
24. Montclair  46
25. Franklin   44

Dropped Out: #23 St. John Fisher, #24 Wabash

Also receiving votes: Hampden-Sydney (34), St. John Fisher (20), Willamette (19), Washington U (5), Salisbury(4),Wabash(4),Williams(4), Alfred (2), Illinois Wesleyan (2), Albion (1), Baldwin-Wallace (1), Muhlenberg (1)


It's interesting to group the teams based on point differential.  It looks like #1 through 6 are pretty firmly entrenched  (barring a loss), there seems to be some tightening in the 7-10 spots,  11 and 12 look firm, 13 and 14 are competitive, Bethel, Coe Wheaton, and Cal Lutheran seem solid at 15,16, 17, and 18.  Depauw and Pacific Lutheran are neck and neck for 19 and 20.  #22 Cortland State is within range of 21 Central, but barely holding off #23 Rowan. #25 is within 2 of Montclair.  

In the "Also Receiving Votes" category, Willamette went from 8 votes two weeks ago, to 11 last week, to 19 this week.  The two teams ahead of them in the category have descended from Top 25 positions over the past two weeks  
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 10, 2010, 09:33:51 am
Linfield belongs in the top five easily....all well informed d3 followers should know that.  But I guess they don't.

Not sure about easily...I ranked them 6th b/c I believe they are still a very strong team. But putting them easily in the top five is stretching it. they'll be leap frogging too many  good programs that have yet to lose a game.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 10, 2010, 12:58:11 pm
Linfield belongs in the top five easily....all well informed d3 followers should know that.  But I guess they don't.

I agree with you...in an undefeated season.  However, in my opinion, the D3 Top 25 Fan Poll has the top 6 teams right. I do not fill out a ballot, but I think the top 6 are very solid. Do I think Linfield could beat some of them, should they play in a playoff game? Yes.  But there are more to ranking teams than head to head prospects.  It's pretty hard to reach Top 5 status with a loss unless a team has a  dynasty-like resume'  (Mount Union).  Even the Purple Raiders may be sitting at 6 this year with a loss.  While Linfield has been a winning program for forever and a day, they have not been Top 5 dominant year in and year out to be placed there with a loss.  The Cats have lost 11 times in the last 4 plus seasons. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Teamski on November 10, 2010, 01:34:03 pm
Am I missing something?  North Central has the #25 SOS vs Wesley's #1, but is ahead of Wesley at #3.  I'm not being sour, but I'm curious to know.

-Ski
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 10, 2010, 01:37:34 pm
Am I missing something?  North Central has the #25 SOS vs Wesley's #1 and has yet to meet a ranked opponent, but is ahead of Wesley at #3.  I'm not being sour, but I'm curious to know.

-Ski

you mean besides Wheaton?

As a fan of UWW...there's two teams that really scare me this year. one (as always) is Mount Union, and the other is NCC. They always have a had a great offense...now this year they have a very good defense to bring to the party.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on November 10, 2010, 01:43:03 pm
After Wesley's 3-point win at home against Salisbury (who certainly isn't a bad team) on 10/30, I had decided that I would move NCC ahead of Wesley this week if NCC went on the road and handled Wheaton.  They did, and so I did.  I'm guessing that this line of logic wasn't unique to just me. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wesleydad on November 10, 2010, 03:51:02 pm
wally, if you are going to use that logic then make sure that the info is correct.  wesley defeated salisbury at salisbury.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on November 10, 2010, 04:00:26 pm
wally, if you are going to use that logic then make sure that the info is correct.  wesley defeated salisbury at salisbury.

You are right and I knew that.  I'm an idiot.  The location of that Wes/Sal game really didn't matter and I'm not sure why I mentioned it.  The logic still holds though.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: criswyly on November 10, 2010, 07:32:47 pm
Just thought I'd stir it up......but not backing down on what I stated.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on November 10, 2010, 08:46:37 pm
Just thought I'd stir it up......but not backing down on what I stated.

It would be unLinfield-like to do otherwise, right criswyly?  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 10, 2010, 11:50:34 pm
This is what I had:

1. UW - Whitewater
2. Mt. Union
3. Wesley
4. North Central
5. St. Thomas
6. Mary Hardin - Baylor
7. Wartburg
8. Hardin - Simmons
9. Delaware Valley
10. Ohio Northern
11. Wittenberg
12. Linfield
13. Bethel
14. Thomas More
15. Wheaton (IL)
16. Coe
17. Montclair State
18. Trine
19. DePauw
20. Pacific Lutheran
21. Central (IA)
22. Hampden - Sydney
23. St. John Fisher
24. Willamette
25. Cal Lutheran

Linfield is a fine team, but everyone ahead of them I thought would beat them 6 times out of 10.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 11, 2010, 07:53:42 am

Linfield is a fine team, but everyone ahead of them I thought would beat them 6 times out of 10.

Wow. Interesting perspective!  I think Mount and UW-W would beat them 6 out of 10 times.  I'm totally unsure if ANY of the others would.  But that's whats fun about discussing rankings.   ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 11, 2010, 11:32:47 am
This is what I had:

1. UW - Whitewater
2. Mt. Union
3. Wesley
4. North Central
5. St. Thomas
6. Mary Hardin - Baylor
7. Wartburg
8. Hardin - Simmons
9. Delaware Valley
10. Ohio Northern
11. Wittenberg
12. Linfield
13. Bethel
14. Thomas More
15. Wheaton (IL)
16. Coe
17. Montclair State
18. Trine
19. DePauw
20. Pacific Lutheran
21. Central (IA)
22. Hampden - Sydney
23. St. John Fisher
24. Willamette
25. Cal Lutheran

Linfield is a fine team, but everyone ahead of them I thought would beat them 6 times out of 10.

I too, had Linfield at 12. I had Trine at 9 though...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2010, 06:40:11 pm
Am I correct that this weekend we will do our final regular season poll, then take a break until a final poll after the Stagg?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on November 11, 2010, 07:43:52 pm
FWIW...here's what I did this week...

1    Whitewater
2    Mount Union
3    North Central
4    Wesley
5    St. Thomas
6    UMHB
7    Wartburg
8    Delaware Valley
9    Ohio Northern
10    Hardin-Simmons
11    Coe
12    Cal Lutheran
13    Linfield
14    Wheaton
15    Bethel
16    Trine
17    Wittenberg
18    Hampden-Sydney
19    Thomas More
20    Montclair State
21    Rowan
22    Cortland State
23    DePauw
24    Pacific Lutheran
25    Franklin
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 11, 2010, 08:05:22 pm
I guess I'll just copy everyone else and post mine too....

1. UW-Whitewater
2. Mount Union
3. North Central
4. Wesley
5. Hardin-Baylor
6. Delaware Valley
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
8. Trine
9. St. Thomas
10. ONU
11. Linfield
12. Wittenberg
13. Thomas More
14. Coe
15. Wartburg
16. Wheaton
17. Central
18. Hampden-Sidney
19. Cal Lutheran
20. Bethel
21. DePauw
22. WashU
23. Pacific Luteran
24. Walliamette
25. Albion
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 11, 2010, 08:07:37 pm
Am I correct that this weekend we will do our final regular season poll, then take a break until a final poll after the Stagg?

I would assume so, but you know what they say about assuming ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on November 12, 2010, 08:02:36 am
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
For the record, this is not the name of the school.  The school is Hardin-Simmons; named for John Hardin because of  the financial gift he gave that saved Simmons College during the depression.  Mary Hardin-Baylor received money from the same family and renamed Baylor College for Women Mary Hardin - Baylor in honor of their donation. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 12, 2010, 03:46:45 pm
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
For the record, this is not the name of the school.  The school is Hardin-Simmons; named for John Hardin because of  the financial gift he gave that saved Simmons College during the depression.  Mary Hardin-Baylor received money from the same family and renamed Baylor College for Women Mary Hardin - Baylor in honor of their donation. 

Sorry, It was something on a "copy-and-paste" that I missed by accident...I will change it from now on...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on November 12, 2010, 11:38:34 pm
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
For the record, this is not the name of the school.  The school is Hardin-Simmons; named for John Hardin because of  the financial gift he gave that saved Simmons College during the depression.  Mary Hardin-Baylor received money from the same family and renamed Baylor College for Women Mary Hardin - Baylor in honor of their donation. 

Sorry, It was something on a "copy-and-paste" that I missed by accident...I will change it from now on...
no problem.  just wanted to clarify
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 13, 2010, 05:25:00 pm
Albion sure didn't prove worthy of my top 25 vote  :-\
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 13, 2010, 05:42:01 pm
And DePauw sure ain't getting a #19 vote again from me! :o
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on November 13, 2010, 05:47:04 pm
How about Hardin-Simmons & Delaware Valley?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 13, 2010, 09:06:21 pm
Bad day for me, my #6, #7, #17, #21, #22,#24, and #25 all lost
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 13, 2010, 09:35:57 pm
The losses don't make you look bad. It's just what happens!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on November 14, 2010, 09:36:22 am
Yea, and it was rivalry week, so you know records are out the window, and everything's on the line...that's why I dislike Alma playing Albion so early...these guys are the big rivals and need to be that week 11 matchup.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 14, 2010, 11:10:08 am
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
For the record, this is not the name of the school.  The school is Hardin-Simmons; named for John Hardin because of  the financial gift he gave that saved Simmons College during the depression.  Mary Hardin-Baylor received money from the same family and renamed Baylor College for Women Mary Hardin - Baylor in honor of their donation. 

Sorry, It was something on a "copy-and-paste" that I missed by accident...I will change it from now on...
no problem.  just wanted to clarify

Toby, that would be a helluva team, if they could play as Mary Hardin-Simmons... think of the National Titles..

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on November 14, 2010, 12:04:52 pm
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
For the record, this is not the name of the school.  The school is Hardin-Simmons; named for John Hardin because of  the financial gift he gave that saved Simmons College during the depression.  Mary Hardin-Baylor received money from the same family and renamed Baylor College for Women Mary Hardin - Baylor in honor of their donation. 

Sorry, It was something on a "copy-and-paste" that I missed by accident...I will change it from now on...
no problem.  just wanted to clarify

Toby, that would be a helluva team, if they could play as Mary Hardin-Simmons... think of the National Titles..


it would never work.  too much inner turmoil.  it would be like trying to get consensus at a Baptist business meeting.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on November 14, 2010, 12:05:56 pm
7. Mary Hardin-Simmons
For the record, this is not the name of the school.  The school is Hardin-Simmons; named for John Hardin because of  the financial gift he gave that saved Simmons College during the depression.  Mary Hardin-Baylor received money from the same family and renamed Baylor College for Women Mary Hardin - Baylor in honor of their donation. 

Sorry, It was something on a "copy-and-paste" that I missed by accident...I will change it from now on...
no problem.  just wanted to clarify

Toby, that would be a helluva team, if they could play as Mary Hardin-Simmons... think of the National Titles..


Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on November 16, 2010, 07:05:26 pm
This week's D3 Top 25 Fan Poll has been released!

www.uwwfootball.blogspot.com
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on November 29, 2010, 02:51:51 pm
who was that again who was giving us sh!t for ranking Trine too high?!?!  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on November 29, 2010, 03:48:19 pm
exactly.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on November 30, 2010, 02:24:03 pm
I didn't say I was perfect. Of course, Wabash knocked the fight out of DPU and it made it easier for Trine to clean up on 'em!  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on November 30, 2010, 05:29:00 pm
who was that again who was giving us sh!t for ranking Trine too high?!?!  ;)

Who knew Whitewater was going to go out of their way to make them look good   :D ;D ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2010, 12:18:50 pm
I know I'm jumping the gun....but here's my final poll:

1. UWW
2. Mount Union
3. North Central
4. Wesley
5. Bethel
6. MHB
7. St. Thomas
8. Linfield
9. Trine
10. Alfred
11. Ohio Northern
12. Thomas More
13. Cortland State
14. Montclair State
15. Wheaton
16. D.Valley
17. Wartburg
18. Franklin
19. Pacific Lutheran
20. Cal Lutheran
21. DePauw
22. Coe
23. Central
24. Rowan
25. Hardin Simmons
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on December 22, 2010, 02:09:10 pm
02- Glad you got this started.
I like your top 3 (and I think there is room for discussion between #2 and #3).
I struggle with the following teams:
Wesley- I didn't see them at full strength, however against UWW, I did not see a #4 team- but I can't justify moving somebody else into this spot.
UMHB-  Given the above, I have to move them down, below St. Thomas, Linfield and Trine.   
Bethel-  This is the toughest team to rank because they are so one-dimensional.   They looked completely incapable against Mt, how did they get through St. Thomas and Wheaton?  But they did, so I guess they stay at 5.     
St. Thomas and Linfield are at 6 and 7.
Trine- I move them up to 8.
UMHB- 9
Wheaton- 10

 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 22, 2010, 02:39:58 pm
I'd have UMHB at 5, Bethel at 6, unless Thomas More is grossly over-ranked at 12 (UMHB beat them 69-7).  If UMHB is lower, TM has to be MUCH power.

I can't see DePauw in the rankings at all (especially if Wabash is not there).  And how did Cortland and Montclair get so far ahead of Rowan?  I think they have to be pretty much consecutive (in whatever order) - whether in the mid teens or low 20s is the question, but they never did separate themselves.  My final quibble would be that I think Hardin-Simmons is 5-6 slots too low.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 22, 2010, 02:42:30 pm
BP, did you still want us to submit ballots to you, or shall we just discuss here?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2010, 02:44:38 pm
I'd have UMHB at 5, Bethel at 6, unless Thomas More is grossly over-ranked at 12 (UMHB beat them 69-7).  If UMHB is lower, TM has to be MUCH power.

I can't see DePauw in the rankings at all (especially if Wabash is not there).  And how did Cortland and Montclair get so far ahead of Rowan?  I think they have to be pretty much consecutive (in whatever order) - whether in the mid teens or low 20s is the question, but they never did separate themselves.  My final quibble would be that I think Hardin-Simmons is 5-6 slots too low.

They each won a game in the tournament...rowan didn't even get in the dance.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2010, 02:45:51 pm
BP, did you still want us to submit ballots to you, or shall we just discuss here?

he wants your ballots
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 22, 2010, 03:00:26 pm
BP, did you still want us to submit ballots to you, or shall we just discuss here?

he wants your ballots

OK, it has been done!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: thewaterboy on December 22, 2010, 03:18:45 pm
This probably isnt my place but I think you could make a case for Wesley at #3 over North Central. Although Wesley's deficit to UWW is 20 and NCC is 10, Wesley is #1 in the Nation in total defense, NCC is #3. Wesley is also 16th in total offense, NCC 34th. Wesleys 14th in scoring offense, NCC 19th. I also think Wesley scores a bit more if Ellis Krout, the 6-4 reciever was 100% in that game, he tore his ACL against UMHB.

But thats all history now. Again probably not my place, and im probably nitpicking, but i couldnt resist.  ;D

Happy Holidays!!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Knightstalker on December 22, 2010, 03:22:56 pm
I'd have UMHB at 5, Bethel at 6, unless Thomas More is grossly over-ranked at 12 (UMHB beat them 69-7).  If UMHB is lower, TM has to be MUCH power.

I can't see DePauw in the rankings at all (especially if Wabash is not there).  And how did Cortland and Montclair get so far ahead of Rowan?  I think they have to be pretty much consecutive (in whatever order) - whether in the mid teens or low 20s is the question, but they never did separate themselves.  My final quibble would be that I think Hardin-Simmons is 5-6 slots too low.

They each won a game in the tournament...rowan didn't even get in the dance.

But Rowan was probably the best team in the NJAC by the end of the season.  They just got caught up in numbers and a three way tie.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on December 22, 2010, 03:45:14 pm
02- Glad you got this started.
I like your top 3 (and I think there is room for discussion between #2 and #3).
I struggle with the following teams:
Wesley- I didn't see them at full strength, however against UWW, I did not see a #4 team- but I can't justify moving somebody else into this spot.

I think this is the problem when UMU fans and now UWW fans (I should say SOME fans...certainly not all fans do this) start to grade out teams that they walloped on the way to Salem.  In your mind, you think that if UWW and UMU are 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 shouldn't be all that far behind.  So when y'all thump a semifinal participant by three scores or more, it's natural to say "hmmm...they sure didn't look like a final four team."  Guess what?  Nobody does when they play Whitewater or Mount Union.  Here's the deal...UWW and UMU are that much better.  That's the chasm that has been created. 

That having been said, I don't think you can give anybody who didn't play and beat UMU the benefit of the doubt that they would be better than UMU...in this case NCC.  North Central was an outstanding team this season, no doubt about it.  And while I do think that poll voting should be done in a year-to-year vacuum, those rules don't apply to Mount Union.  There's just too much evidence going back too many years now to not believe that year after year, class after class, Mount Union is going to be the best team in Division III (obviously, that tier now has two occupants, but UWW had to get there and beat them to earn it...nobody assumed UWW would do it until it happened).  So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.  Basically, until UWW and UMU start losing games to somebody other than each other, they have to be 1 and 2 (in some order) in this polling. 

I'll put my final top 25 up here later tonight.  I'll save some suspense though...DePauw did not make the cut.   :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2010, 04:01:46 pm
02- Glad you got this started.
I like your top 3 (and I think there is room for discussion between #2 and #3).
I struggle with the following teams:
Wesley- I didn't see them at full strength, however against UWW, I did not see a #4 team- but I can't justify moving somebody else into this spot.

I think this is the problem when UMU fans and now UWW fans (I should say SOME fans...certainly not all fans do this) start to grade out teams that they walloped on the way to Salem.  In your mind, you think that if UWW and UMU are 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 shouldn't be all that far behind.  So when y'all thump a semifinal participant by three scores or more, it's natural to say "hmmm...they sure didn't look like a final four team."  Guess what?  Nobody does when they play Whitewater or Mount Union.  Here's the deal...UWW and UMU are that much better.  That's the chasm that has been created. 

Personally I think I ranked the five teams that Whitewater beat in the playoffs fairly high. Infact I ranked Trine and Franklin both in the top 18...then of course I put Mount, NCC and Wesley 2nd, 3rd and 4th....so I'm not sure where you're getting this. unless I fall outside your "SOME fans" category.   :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2010, 04:11:52 pm
So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.
I hear what you're saying I seriously thought about putting NCC in the #2 spot in my poll...but I couldn't pull he trigger on it. I think they were UWW's toughest game of the year...but Mount did run the table, only to lose in the Stagg Bowl. That in itself warrants a #2 spot.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 22, 2010, 04:37:51 pm
So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.
I hear what you're saying I seriously thought about putting NCC in the #2 spot in my poll...but I couldn't pull he trigger on it. I think they were UWW's toughest game of the year...but Mount did run the table, only to lose in the Stagg Bowl. That in itself warrants a #2 spot.

The downside of automatically voting the Stagg Bowl loser as #2 is that that gives the bracket-makers too much power! ;)  Hypothetically it is certainly possible that the second-best team happened to be on the Champ's side of the bracket.  (If the selection committee DOES ever put UMU and UWW in the same half (or even quarter) of the bracket, I'll have to remember to dig up this post! ;D)

I think a plausible argument CAN be made for NCC #2 this year, but, ultimately, I couldn't pull the trigger either.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2010, 04:50:50 pm
So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.
I hear what you're saying I seriously thought about putting NCC in the #2 spot in my poll...but I couldn't pull he trigger on it. I think they were UWW's toughest game of the year...but Mount did run the table, only to lose in the Stagg Bowl. That in itself warrants a #2 spot.

The downside of automatically voting the Stagg Bowl loser as #2 is that that gives the bracket-makers too much power! ;)  Hypothetically it is certainly possible that the second-best team happened to be on the Champ's side of the bracket.  (If the selection committee DOES ever put UMU and UWW in the same half (or even quarter) of the bracket, I'll have to remember to dig up this post! ;D)

I think a plausible argument CAN be made for NCC #2 this year, but, ultimately, I couldn't pull the trigger either.

I think the only way UWW and Mount end up on the same side of the bracket, is if they don't finish #1 and #2 in the final regular season poll. With that being said, I think (and I hope) the committee with continue to put the #1 and #2 two teams on the opposite side of each other. Even if the #1 seed overall gets a #2 regional seed  ;D

yea, it would of been interesting if Bethel would of beat UMU, but then lost to UWW in the Stagg Bowl. In that case, I can't see putting Bethel as #2 in the country for the final poll.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 22, 2010, 04:58:39 pm
I saw that the final regular season poll only had 20 participants (of which I was not one... just had too many other things to do on other boards.)

If I may submit one for consideration as one of the "final five voters", then here.

1)  UWW
2)  UMU
3)  NCC
4)  Wesley
5)  UMHB
6)  Bethel
7)  St Thomas
8)  Linfield
9)  Ohio Northern
10) Trine
11) Wheaton IL
12) Wartburg
13) Alfred
14) Coe
15) Delaware Valley
16) Hardin-Simmons
17) Pacific Lutheran
18) Wittenberg
19) Cal Lutheran
20) Franklin
21) Louisiana College
22) Cortland State
23) Montclair State
24) Central
25) Rowan
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on December 22, 2010, 06:04:58 pm
Wally, since you replied to my quote, I will assume you directed this comment at me "I think this is the problem when UMU fans and now UWW fans (I should say SOME fans...certainly not all fans do this) start to grade out teams that they walloped on the way to Salem.  In your mind, you think that if UWW and UMU are 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 shouldn't be all that far behind".

Speaking only for myself and not the "SOME" fans you referred to, my opinion of the rankings has nothing to do with walloped teams. 
I consider the individual characteristics of the teams I've seen or followed.  I look for strengths and weaknesses that I feel would be material if the teams played head to head.  In my opinion, Mt and NCC would be an excellent game and, therefore, discussion is warranted for the #2 and #3 ranking.  I believe Mt's big play offense would be limited against NCC because of their excellent discipline and their d line speed.  NCC would definately shut down Mt's run game.  NCC would struggle to run against Mt because they don't really run a true power game, which plays into Mt's speed. 

I think the Wesley that played UWW this year losses to NCC.  Wesley is similar (in style, not ability) to Mt in their big play offense and their defensive statistics that were heavily influenced by the types of offenses they played.  I believe NCC's discipline makes Wesley's offense ineffective.  I believe NCC grinds out enough points against Wesley's d to win. 

I believe UMHB showed again that although they are trying, they are still too one dimentional.  A solid, disciplined run defense with speed gives UMHB all kinds of trouble.  There are quite a few teams with defenses like that- including Bethel, St. Thomas and Wheaton.  UMHB defense was decent, but certainly not great, so teams like Linfield and Trine put up lots of points- and probably enough to get the win. 

Again, this is all my opinion based on strengths and weaknesses that I have seen or read about, but it has nothing to do with whether UWW or Mt walloped anybody.     
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on December 22, 2010, 06:55:31 pm
That's all fine, emma.  My point is simply that Mount Union has been so dominant for so long that even when a team seems to rise up and looks like they could give Mount Union a game, it's probably not appropriate to rank that team ahead of Mount Union until there is some empirical evidence, namely a h2h result, that they actually are better than Mount Union.  Over the years there have been several such teams and without fail when that team gets a shot, they get squashed.  Mount Union and now UWW as well have accrued that kind of benefit of the doubt capital with poll voters...they ought to be 1 and 2 until it is proven that they aren't. 

Debating the ranking of NCC and Wesley on the other hand.  That ranking could go either way based on how that hypothetical game plays out in the voter's head.  I believe I moved NCC ahead of Wesley after NCC whipped up on Wheaton and in fact have NCC ranked ahead of Wesley in my final ballot as well.  But I wouldn't even consider NCC ahead of Mount Union. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 22, 2010, 07:14:17 pm
That's all fine, emma.  My point is simply that Mount Union has been so dominant for so long that even when a team seems to rise up and looks like they could give Mount Union a game, it's probably not appropriate to rank that team ahead of Mount Union until there is some empirical evidence, namely a h2h result, that they actually are better than Mount Union.  Over the years there have been several such teams and without fail when that team gets a shot, they get squashed.  Mount Union and now UWW as well have accrued that kind of benefit of the doubt capital with poll voters...they ought to be 1 and 2 until it is proven that they aren't. 

Debating the ranking of NCC and Wesley on the other hand.  That ranking could go either way based on how that hypothetical game plays out in the voter's head.  I believe I moved NCC ahead of Wesley after NCC whipped up on Wheaton and in fact have NCC ranked ahead of Wesley in my final ballot as well.  But I wouldn't even consider NCC ahead of Mount Union. 

I would (and did) for three primary reasons.  Coppage against NCC: 107 yards; Coppage against UMU: 299 yards.  The vaunted UMU offense was shut out by UWW for 56 minutes of the game (only a four minute explosion in the second quarter kept the game from a rout).  UMU never led UWW in the second half; NCC led entering the 4th quarter.

Ultimately I kept UMU as #2, for reasons pretty much as you expressed them.  But to not even consider voting NCC #2 is placing way too much importance on past history and not enough on 2010.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 22, 2010, 07:19:30 pm
Good comments, emma17.

You outlined exactly why I voted the way that I did.

The UWW band traveled to NCC, so some of the home field advantage was neutralized.

I want fans from outside the ASC to realize that UMHB got several tough games in the ASC.

Here is my post after the McMurry game, which UMHB won 43-31, but gave up 5 TD's.

To be down 22-0 and then score 25 straight points to take the lead and the finally lose the game by a margin of a recovered fumble for a TD, a safety, a kickoff return and then an INT for a TD is exasperating.

The good side that I see from this is that we held Daniels and Bailey to "below average" production

Quote
Rushing              No Gain Loss  Net TD Lg  Avg
-------------------------------------------------
Quincy Daniels       27  109   10   99  1 18  3.7
LiDarral Bailey      17  106   21   85  1 39  5.0

and we had this performance in only the 13th game of the new system.

We catch HSU in the 18th game of the new system. That game might be for a share of the conference lead.

UMHB lives inside HSU's head.  The CRU always gets a hard game from HSU, but they just have the number of the Cowboys, (just as HSU has McMurry's number.)

Louisiana College was an INT in the end zone against UMHB away from getting the Pool A bid for the ASC. Louisiana College beat HSU in Louisiana this year.

I think that all three ASC teams deserve to be in the Top25.  In the playoffs, UMHB just demolished the other 2 South Region teams, CNU 59-7 and Thomas More 69-7.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on December 22, 2010, 09:31:21 pm
Final D3 Top 25 Fan Poll has been released.


www.uwwfootball.com
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on December 23, 2010, 01:19:46 pm
FWIW, here's my final top 25:

1    Whitewater
2    Mount Union
3    North Central
4    Wesley
5    Bethel
6    St. Thomas
7    UMHB
8    Linfield
9    Wheaton
10    Ohio Northern
11    Trine
12    Delaware Valley
13    Coe
14    Alfred
15    Wartburg
16    Franklin
17    Thomas More
18    Montclair State
19    Pacific Lutheran
20    Cal Lutheran
21    Hardin-Simmons
22    Hampden-Sydney
23    Wittenberg
24    Rowan
25    Cortland State

From the week 11 poll to this poll, Alfred moved in and Wabash fell out.  The other 24 are the same with some requisite shuffling based on how they did in the tournament. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on December 23, 2010, 08:07:25 pm
I want to know where everyone had Trine at in their polls...

I had them at 10...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on December 23, 2010, 08:08:46 pm
I had them #6
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 23, 2010, 08:12:06 pm
#8.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 23, 2010, 08:56:56 pm
Trine is my number nine... ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: usee on December 24, 2010, 04:05:29 pm
Here's my final poll:

1   UWW
2   Mt Union
3   NCC
4   Wesley
5   Bethel
6   Trine
7   UMHB
8   St Thomas
9   Linfield
10   Wheaton
11   Ohio Northern
12   Wartburg
13   Alfred
14   Coe
15   Thomas More
16   Del Valley
17   Franklin
18   Cortland State
19   Montaclair State
20   Pac Lutheran
21   Rowan
22   Hardin Simmons
23   Hampden Sydney
24   Wittenberg
25   Cal Lutheran
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on December 24, 2010, 06:49:26 pm
So we have about a range of 5-10 for Trine...
My poll is as follows:

1. UW-Whitewater
2. Mount Union
3. North Central
4. Wesley
5. Bethel
6. Trine
7. Mary Hardin-Baylor
8. St. Thomas
9. Alfred
10. Wheaton
11. Linfield
12. Cortland St.
13. Ohio Northern
14. Delaware Valley
15. Montclair St.
16. Thomas More
17. Hampden-Sydney
18. DePauw
19. Wartburg
20. Endicott
21. Coe
22. Cal Lutheran
23. Wittenberg
24. Franklin
25. Salisbury
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on December 24, 2010, 09:43:09 pm
I want to know where everyone had Trine at in their polls...

I had them at 10...

So we have about a range of 5-10 for Trine...
My poll is as follows:

1. UW-Whitewater
2. Mount Union
3. North Central
4. Wesley
5. Bethel
6. Trine
7. Mary Hardin-Baylor
8. St. Thomas
9. Alfred
10. Wheaton
11. Linfield
12. Cortland St.
13. Ohio Northern
14. Delaware Valley
15. Montclair St.
16. Thomas More
17. Hampden-Sydney
18. DePauw
19. Wartburg
20. Endicott
21. Coe
22. Cal Lutheran
23. Wittenberg
24. Franklin
25. Salisbury

I'm confused. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on March 24, 2011, 09:53:58 pm
Wow...that was a bad typo....I've had them higher than 10 since the 2nd week we did that poll....not sure why I wrote 10....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on June 02, 2011, 12:53:28 pm
I'm in for doing a 2011 pre-season poll
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on June 02, 2011, 02:05:05 pm
I'm in for doing a 2011 pre-season poll
But only after we have a chance to read the team write-ups that are in Kickoff.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on June 02, 2011, 02:13:02 pm
I'm in for doing a 2011 pre-season poll
But only after we have a chance to read the team write-ups that are in Kickoff.

I was thinking the same thing. I think this is the year I cave and finaly purchase Kickoff.

I heard good things about it.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on June 05, 2011, 09:08:06 pm
Totally with you on both points 02 Warhawk
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on August 11, 2011, 02:28:47 pm
Is there going to be a pre-season fan poll???
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on August 11, 2011, 03:37:55 pm
Is there going to be a pre-season fan poll???

Yes. Sometime after Kickoff gets published we'll get the ball rolling on this.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on August 11, 2011, 05:16:45 pm
K. Thanks!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: WashUDad on August 14, 2011, 09:19:05 pm
Awesome
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: seventiesraider on August 19, 2011, 02:37:33 pm
If ya want me again I'm still willing
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 19, 2011, 11:23:00 pm
Can't recall for sure if I was a voter last year (I'm much stronger on bball than fball, but keep up nationally fairly well), but I'm available if you want me.

(And, fear not, IWU will not appear on my ballot unless they start 4-0 - which would mean beating Wheaton - and perhaps 7-0, which would also include beating NCC. ;D)

(Well, OK, 4-0 would mean top 25; but 7-0 would be required to hit top 10! :D)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on August 21, 2011, 07:57:05 pm
I'm in! For anything.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on August 21, 2011, 11:57:38 pm
Hi everyone,

i'd be happy to coordinate the fan poll again this year, unless someone else wants to go for it. Anyone who is in, just send me a private message to confirm you want to be a part of it.  I was thinking it would be good to give ourselves about a week to read Kickoff and then try to get me the ballots by midnight on August 30th. And then I will put out the pre-season poll results on September 1st.

And yes, Kickoff is DEFINITELY worth the money!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on August 31, 2011, 11:57:02 am
Thanks Bleedpurple for putting this together.
 
Welcome to the initial addition of the 2011 D3 Top 25 Fan Poll.  Thanks to those agreeing to being pollsters for the 2011 season. Here is the "fan's view" of where team ranks as the 2011 season kicks off this week:

1. UW-Whitewater (12)    348
2. Mount Union (2)           338
3. North Central                314
4. Wesley                          309
5. St. Thomas                   286
6. UMHB                         280
7. Bethel                          249
8. Wheaton                      242
9 Linfield                         238
10.. Coe                           200
11. Ohio Northern           184
12. Wartburg                    167
13. Montclair State          153
14. Thomas More            146
15. Cortland State            138
16. Hardin-Simmons       134
17. Cal Lutheran              130
18. Alfred                          92
19. Trine                            81
20. Wabash                        80
21. Wittenberg                   77
22. UW-Stevens Point       62
23. St. Johns                      60
24. Rowan                         47
25. Franklin                       34

Also Receiving Votes: Delaware Valley 29, Baldwin Wallace 26, Central 20, Willamette 16, Elmhurst 13, UW- Oshkosh 11, Salisbury 11,  Hampden-Sydney 9, Washington and Lee 6, Johns Hopkins 5, Louisiana College 5, Pacific Lutheran 4, Redlands 3, St. John Fisher 2, Illinois Wesleyan 1.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on August 31, 2011, 12:07:19 pm
Thanks for taking the time to get this done Bleedpurple.
I don't know if I'm surprised or disappointed that the poll looks an awful lot like the D3 poll released.  As much as I respect the DIII gang, I thought the preseason poll provided many opportunities for differing opinions- which I guess I'll start here.
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.
MHB continues to receive lots of love and I don't get it- 10th place for me. I put Hardin Simmons at #6. 
I feel Baldwin-Wallace should replace Ohio Northern at 11- I don't get the love for Ohio Northern.  ONU out of top 25.
I placed St. Thomas at #3- ahead of NCC and Wesley.  These three teams are close to a toss up to me.  St. Thomas over NCC because NCC losses an unbelievable linebacker.  NCC over Wesley because I feel they play a more disciplined overall game- with speed everywhere that can compete with Wesley.
Bethel at 7 and Wheaton at 8- So the OAC, MIAC, ASC and CCIW each had two top 10 teams in my book.
Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: rams1102 on August 31, 2011, 01:27:57 pm
Thanks Bleedpurple for putting this together.
 
Welcome to the initial addition of the 2011 D3 Top 25 Fan Poll.  Thanks to those agreeing to being pollsters for the 2011 season. Here is the "fan's view" of where team ranks as the 2011 season kicks off this week:

1. UW-Whitewater (12)    348
2. Mount Union (2)           338
3. North Central                314
4. Wesley                          309
5. St. Thomas                   286
6. UMHB                         280
7. Bethel                          249
8. Wheaton                      242
9 Linfield                         238
10.. Coe                           200
11. Ohio Northern           184
12. Wartburg                    167
13. Montclair State          153
14. Thomas More            146
15. Cortland State            138
16. Hardin-Simmons       134
17. Cal Lutheran              130
18. Alfred                          92
19. Trine                            81
20. Wabash                        80
21. Wittenberg                   77
22. UW-Stevens Point       62
23. St. Johns                      60
24. Rowan                         47
25. Franklin                       34

Also Receiving Votes: Delaware Valley 29, Baldwin Wallace 26, Central 20, Willamette 16, Elmhurst 13, UW- Oshkosh 11, Salisbury 11,  Hampden-Sydney 9, Washington and Lee 6, Johns Hopkins 5, Louisiana College 5, Pacific Lutheran 4, Redlands 3, St. John Fisher 2, Illinois Wesleyan 1.

Bleedpurple & emma17,

Thanks for the effort, I'm a Montclair State fan, a little different slant then D3. +K
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on August 31, 2011, 01:39:20 pm
No credit to me, I only cut and pasted all the work Bleedpurple did.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on August 31, 2011, 01:57:14 pm
Thanks for taking the time to get this done Bleedpurple.
I don't know if I'm surprised or disappointed that the poll looks an awful lot like the D3 poll released.  As much as I respect the DIII gang, I thought the preseason poll provided many opportunities for differing opinions- which I guess I'll start here.
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.
MHB continues to receive lots of love and I don't get it- 10th place for me. I put Hardin Simmons at #6. 

I feel Baldwin-Wallace should replace Ohio Northern at 11- I don't get the love for Ohio Northern.  ONU out of top 25.
I placed St. Thomas at #3- ahead of NCC and Wesley.  These three teams are close to a toss up to me.  St. Thomas over NCC because NCC losses an unbelievable linebacker.  NCC over Wesley because I feel they play a more disciplined overall game- with speed everywhere that can compete with Wesley.
Bethel at 7 and Wheaton at 8- So the OAC, MIAC, ASC and CCIW each had two top 10 teams in my book.
Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 

Thanks, Emma17.  I think it's great for you (and all the pollsters) to think through criteria and rank the teams (Even though you screwed up your #1 team  ;)). It should get pretty interesting as upsets occur and teams move up and down and in and out of the Top 25. For those wondering, Here is the D3football.com Top 25 poll:

1    UW-Whitewater (19)    15-0    619    1
2    Mount Union (6)    14-1    606    2
3    Wesley    12-1    561    4
4    North Central (Ill.)    12-1    526    3
5    St. Thomas    12-1    491    7
6    Mary Hardin-Baylor    12-1    481    5
7    Bethel    12-2    480    6
8    Wheaton (Ill.)    10-2    382    11
9    Linfield    9-2    347    9
10    Coe    9-2    321    14
11    Thomas More    11-1    277    15
12    Montclair State    10-2    270    19
13    Cortland State    10-2    267    18
14    Ohio Northern    10-2    259    8
15    Wartburg    10-1    238    12
16    Hardin-Simmons    8-2    230    24
17    Cal Lutheran    8-2    199    21
18    Alfred    10-3    195    13
19    Wabash    8-2    175    --
20    Wittenberg    10-1    165    17
21    Trine    11-1    129    10
22    Rowan    9-1    108    23
23    UW-Stevens Point    7-3    89    --
24    Franklin    9-2    86    22
25    St. John's    7-3    78    --

Others receiving votes: Delaware Valley 76, Hampden-Sydney 73, Central 64, Pacific Lutheran 62, Salisbury 55, Baldwin-Wallace 45, Springfield 29, Redlands 24, Bridgewater (Va.) 22, Johns Hopkins 16, Willamette 15, Louisiana College 13, Monmouth 10, St. John Fisher 9, Christopher Newport 9, Washington and Jefferson 6, DePauw 5, McMurry 3, Washington and Lee 3, Lebanon Valley 2, UW-Oshkosh 2, Millsaps 1, UW-Stout 1, Williams 1.

And once again the D3 Top 25 Fan Poll:

    1. UW-Whitewater (12)    348
    2. Mount Union (2)           338
    3. North Central                314
    4. Wesley                          309
    5. St. Thomas                   286
    6. UMHB                         280
    7. Bethel                          249
    8. Wheaton                      242
    9 Linfield                         238
    10.. Coe                           200
    11. Ohio Northern           184
    12. Wartburg                    167
    13. Montclair State          153
    14. Thomas More            146
    15. Cortland State            138
    16. Hardin-Simmons       134
    17. Cal Lutheran              130
    18. Alfred                          92
    19. Trine                            81
    20. Wabash                        80
    21. Wittenberg                   77
    22. UW-Stevens Point       62
    23. St. Johns                      60
    24. Rowan                         47
    25. Franklin                       34

    Also Receiving Votes: Delaware Valley 29, Baldwin Wallace 26, Central 20, Willamette 16, Elmhurst 13, UW- Oshkosh 11, Salisbury 11,  Hampden-Sydney 9, Washington and Lee 6, Johns Hopkins 5, Louisiana College 5, Pacific Lutheran 4, Redlands 3, St. John Fisher 2, Illinois Wesleyan 1.





Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on August 31, 2011, 02:19:15 pm
Thanks for taking the time to get this done Bleedpurple.
I don't know if I'm surprised or disappointed that the poll looks an awful lot like the D3 poll released.  As much as I respect the DIII gang, I thought the preseason poll provided many opportunities for differing opinions- which I guess I'll start here.
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.
MHB continues to receive lots of love and I don't get it- 10th place for me. I put Hardin Simmons at #6. 
I feel Baldwin-Wallace should replace Ohio Northern at 11- I don't get the love for Ohio Northern.  ONU out of top 25.
I placed St. Thomas at #3- ahead of NCC and Wesley.  These three teams are close to a toss up to me.  St. Thomas over NCC because NCC losses an unbelievable linebacker.  NCC over Wesley because I feel they play a more disciplined overall game- with speed everywhere that can compete with Wesley.
Bethel at 7 and Wheaton at 8- So the OAC, MIAC, ASC and CCIW each had two top 10 teams in my book.
Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 

Thanks for the work guys, anything that can get me through the last few days without college football is great in my book.

I am curious though Emma, why don't you get the love for MHB but seem to have the love for HSU?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on August 31, 2011, 02:47:49 pm
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.

I agree they have a lot coming back. But nobody on their roster, that's coming back, is named: Cecil Shorts, Kyle Miller,
Lambert Budzinski, Sam Kershaw or Samy Geurrero.

As long as UWW still has Coppage, UWW will still be my #1. UWW's weakness last season was their secondary....I believe this year those positions will be their strength. Just about everyone is returning, including a transfer from DII that is tearing it up in preseason from what I hear. I really excited about their secondary.



Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 

Considering Oshkosh received 11 points (Others receiving votes), that makes you the only one to put them in the top 25.  ;)

As a fan on the WIAC, I hope you're right about them. And if they knock off both Central and Mount, then you can tell us all to suck it!!!  8-)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on August 31, 2011, 03:36:19 pm
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.

I agree they have a lot coming back. But nobody on their roster, that's coming back, is named: Cecil Shorts, Kyle Miller,
Lambert Budzinski, Sam Kershaw or Samy Geurrero.

As long as UWW still has Coppage, UWW will still be my #1. UWW's weakness last season was their secondary....I believe this year those positions will be their strength. Just about everyone is returning, including a transfer from DII that is tearing it up in preseason from what I hear. I really excited about their secondary.

I have UWW at #1 in my submission for this very reason, although I went back and forth on Mount and UWW.

Those 18 returners are significant, especially given how many were very talented sophomores last year. That said, the four that Mount graduated were elite talents that will be no automatic to replace. Two of these guys are currently on an NFL roster. Shorts is looking like he's locked down the #3 spot on the Jags roster, with some saying he could be their #2 by seasons end. He was an NFL caliber player at WR.

UWW definitely graduates some talent, but they bring back their two most important pieces at RB and QB. The O-line lost some guys, but they seem to have reached a level of reloading there as well as on the D-line. At the end of the day, I gave the #1 nod to UWW because they bring back their best player from the Stagg and get a great QB back as well. Those new starters for UWW will be a push by the time these two teams likely meet. Every new starter at that point will probably have 14 games under their belt, more than a full season.

I dropped Trine out of my Top 25 until I see how they fair replacing an All-American QB.

The way I'm treating these early poll submissions is that they will be very fluid. It's all based on perception at this point and no team has proved anything on the field. I anticipate lots of movement in the next several weeks in my poll.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on August 31, 2011, 03:44:06 pm
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.

I agree they have a lot coming back. But nobody on their roster, that's coming back, is named: Cecil Shorts, Kyle Miller,
Lambert Budzinski, Sam Kershaw or Samy Geurrero.

As long as UWW still has Coppage, UWW will still be my #1. UWW's weakness last season was their secondary....I believe this year those positions will be their strength. Just about everyone is returning, including a transfer from DII that is tearing it up in preseason from what I hear. I really excited about their secondary.

I have UWW at #1 in my submission for this very reason, although I went back and forth on Mount and UWW.

Those 18 returners are significant, especially given how many were very talented sophomores last year. That said, the four that Mount graduated were elite talents that will be no automatic to replace. Two of these guys are currently on an NFL roster. Shorts is looking like he's locked down the #3 spot on the Jags roster, with some saying he could be their #2 by seasons end. He was an NFL caliber player at WR.

UWW definitely graduates some talent, but they bring back their two most important pieces at RB and QB. The O-line lost some guys, but they seem to have reached a level of reloading there as well as on the D-line. At the end of the day, I gave the #1 nod to UWW because they bring back their best player from the Stagg and get a great QB back as well. Those new starters for UWW will be a push by the time these two teams likely meet. Every new starter at that point will probably have 14 games under their belt, more than a full season.

I dropped Trine out of my Top 25 until I see how they fair replacing an All-American QB.

The way I'm treating these early poll submissions is that they will be very fluid. It's all based on perception at this point and no team has proved anything on the field. I anticipate lots of movement in the next several weeks in my poll.

I don't think Trine will be there at the end of the year, honestly I don't think they will win the MIAA this year with an undefeated record. Albion or Alma will beat them. I have them slotted at 25 just out of the respect of the name, but I don't think their run in my top 25 will last.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: dlip on August 31, 2011, 04:37:37 pm
dlip who has been contibuting to the East Region Fan Poll for a couple years now never even knew this was here :o. Looks like some really dedicated work and research is done here each week by the Top 25 Fan Pollsters. Nice job fellas this looks solid! dlip looks forward to following this thread as well as his usual East Region threads here in 2011. Thanks for all the work!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on August 31, 2011, 09:03:58 pm
Thanks for taking the time to get this done Bleedpurple.
I don't know if I'm surprised or disappointed that the poll looks an awful lot like the D3 poll released.  As much as I respect the DIII gang, I thought the preseason poll provided many opportunities for differing opinions- which I guess I'll start here.
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.
MHB continues to receive lots of love and I don't get it- 10th place for me. I put Hardin Simmons at #6. 
I feel Baldwin-Wallace should replace Ohio Northern at 11- I don't get the love for Ohio Northern.  ONU out of top 25.
I placed St. Thomas at #3- ahead of NCC and Wesley.  These three teams are close to a toss up to me.  St. Thomas over NCC because NCC losses an unbelievable linebacker.  NCC over Wesley because I feel they play a more disciplined overall game- with speed everywhere that can compete with Wesley.
Bethel at 7 and Wheaton at 8- So the OAC, MIAC, ASC and CCIW each had two top 10 teams in my book.
Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 
emma17,

     I can KIND OF understand the point about MU having so many returning starters and looking THAT good from a preseason perspective.
     Now, on the UMHB topic, what "don't you get"? I don't know if you haven't taken a close enough look at the Crusaders this year or what it is, but they're returning 16 starters and even have a few transfers that could be game changers. There is nothing that says they shouldn't be MORE successful than last year, i'm not trying to be rude. It just doesnt make any sense you having them at No.10. Most people around Belton are talking even bigger than usual about this year's group.
     HSU on the other hand? They lost there head coach last year and their ALL-American QB. If anyone isn't getting enough love this year it's McMurry, who in my opinion has a good chance to take down HSU and even give UMHB a tight ballgame. All i'm saying is, UMHB is ranked No.6 by D3football for a reason and in my opinion may be even better than that. HSU is no where near No.6 in the nation this year, i dont think they should even be ranked.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on August 31, 2011, 10:47:15 pm
As a voter, after the obvious first two there was such a knot for me between 3-11 and then a gap between 11 (Bethel) and 12 (Wartburg) and then another knot all the way down. I had Salisbury higher than most, and didn't have another WIAC team in the top 25, as I'm on a 'wait and see' with them. I don't know how much difference there is between a Salisbury, a Wittenberg, a UW-SP, or a Del Val until the first game or three.

We're now blessed with a lot of good to great teams in D-3 behind the obvious powers. I think that's excellent for the growth of the sport and the division. There's nothing better to incent excellence than to strive toward an aspirational peer, and we have a couple in D-3. I think the equality of the top programs after the Purple shows that.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on August 31, 2011, 11:21:44 pm
Thanks for taking the time to get this done Bleedpurple.
I don't know if I'm surprised or disappointed that the poll looks an awful lot like the D3 poll released.  As much as I respect the DIII gang, I thought the preseason poll provided many opportunities for differing opinions- which I guess I'll start here.
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.
MHB continues to receive lots of love and I don't get it- 10th place for me. I put Hardin Simmons at #6. 
I feel Baldwin-Wallace should replace Ohio Northern at 11- I don't get the love for Ohio Northern.  ONU out of top 25.
I placed St. Thomas at #3- ahead of NCC and Wesley.  These three teams are close to a toss up to me.  St. Thomas over NCC because NCC losses an unbelievable linebacker.  NCC over Wesley because I feel they play a more disciplined overall game- with speed everywhere that can compete with Wesley.
Bethel at 7 and Wheaton at 8- So the OAC, MIAC, ASC and CCIW each had two top 10 teams in my book.
Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 

Thanks for the work guys, anything that can get me through the last few days without college football is great in my book.

I am curious though Emma, why don't you get the love for MHB but seem to have the love for HSU?

Cru- Thanks for asking about my MHB ranking.  First, I did make them #10- so it's not that I think they are weak or undeserving of a high ranking.  Since I don't get to see many ASC games I based my rank on what they did the last couple years in the playoffs and what I read in the Kickoff write-ups.  H-S was the #1 ranked offensive team last year, and although they lose their stud QB, it seems they have experienced and talented guys in the wings.  In addition, they return 8 defensive starters, which I have to believe will help them against MHB.  I know MHB returns the same on defense, but I feel it's easier to improve on defense against a team with a year or two experience.  I am not a huge fan of the MHB offense- at least in what I read from last year.  They struggled mightily to pass vs. Wesley I remember.  Is that because they feature a QB that is better at running than passing?  I don't know for sure, but that's what I based my decision on. 
Having seen MHB in 2007, I have lots of respect for the program.   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on August 31, 2011, 11:29:02 pm
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.

I agree they have a lot coming back. But nobody on their roster, that's coming back, is named: Cecil Shorts, Kyle Miller,
Lambert Budzinski, Sam Kershaw or Samy Geurrero.

As long as UWW still has Coppage, UWW will still be my #1. UWW's weakness last season was their secondary....I believe this year those positions will be their strength. Just about everyone is returning, including a transfer from DII that is tearing it up in preseason from what I hear. I really excited about their secondary.



Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 

Considering Oshkosh received 11 points (Others receiving votes), that makes you the only one to put them in the top 25.  ;)

As a fan on the WIAC, I hope you're right about them. And if they knock off both Central and Mount, then you can tell us all to suck it!!!  8-)
02- I understand the reluctance with Oshkosh, you know I've had to explain myself plenty with them on other boards.  The fact is, they don't have to beat both, they can beat Central and play a close game against Mt and they will be entirely deserving of the #15 ranking I gave them.  If they don't, then it's the same ol Oshkosh I reckon. 
Re UWW.  I can't remember for sure, but I think Mt was ranked #1 in 2008 after losing to UWW in 2007. I think that was based on who each team had returning and there was logic in that pre-season ranking.  It's somewhat the same this year.  As great as Coppage is, he won't be nearly as productive without a great O-Line. In no way am I saying UWW won't have a great one, but at this point in the season, I don't think we can confidently say they will be.  Hopefully a few games into the season we'll all be talking about how well the O-Line has played and then a #1 ranking will be justified- for me anyway. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 01, 2011, 12:15:13 am
I was interested in the fact that the Top 25 Fan Poll tabulation reflected results so similar to the D3football.com poll. That was unexpected to me because as the ballots were coming in, there seemed to be quite a variance in rankings. To give a bit more of a glimpse into the variance (and affirm that the pollsters are independent thinkers), I worked up some more data from the initial D3 Top 25 Fan Poll.

Below is a list of each Top 25 team along with the highest ranking each received on any individual ballot and the lowest ranking each received on an individual ballot.

TEAM- (Highest ranking, lowest ranking)
1. UWW- (1,2)
2. Mount Union- (1,2)
3. North Central- (3,5)
4. Wesley- (3,6)
5. St. Thomas- (3,8)
6. UMHB- (4,10)
7. Bethel- (5, 13)
8. Wheaton- (7,15)
9. Linfield- (6,22)
10. Coe- (8, 23)
11. Ohio Northern- (9, unranked)
12. Wartburg- (9, 25)
13. Montclair State- (10, unranked)
14. Thomas More- (10, unranked)
15. Cortland State- (11, unranked)
16. Hardin-Simmons- (6, unranked)
17. Cal Lutheran- (11, unranked)
18. Alfred- (17, unranked)
19. Trine- (11, unranked)
20. Wabash- (14, unranked)
21. Wittenberg- (15, unranked)
22. UW-Stevens Point- (12, unranked)
23. St. John's- (15, unranked)
24. Rowan- (19, unranked)
25. Franklin- (19, unranked)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 01, 2011, 12:27:01 am
Thanks for taking the time to get this done Bleedpurple.
I don't know if I'm surprised or disappointed that the poll looks an awful lot like the D3 poll released.  As much as I respect the DIII gang, I thought the preseason poll provided many opportunities for differing opinions- which I guess I'll start here.
I love UWW through and through, but MT has 18 returning starters.  From a "pre-season" perspective, MT seems they should be the pre-season #1, for now.
MHB continues to receive lots of love and I don't get it- 10th place for me. I put Hardin Simmons at #6. 
I feel Baldwin-Wallace should replace Ohio Northern at 11- I don't get the love for Ohio Northern.  ONU out of top 25.
I placed St. Thomas at #3- ahead of NCC and Wesley.  These three teams are close to a toss up to me.  St. Thomas over NCC because NCC losses an unbelievable linebacker.  NCC over Wesley because I feel they play a more disciplined overall game- with speed everywhere that can compete with Wesley.
Bethel at 7 and Wheaton at 8- So the OAC, MIAC, ASC and CCIW each had two top 10 teams in my book.
Oshkosh just missed, coming in at 15  ;)
 

Thanks for the work guys, anything that can get me through the last few days without college football is great in my book.

I am curious though Emma, why don't you get the love for MHB but seem to have the love for HSU?

Cru- Thanks for asking about my MHB ranking.  First, I did make them #10- so it's not that I think they are weak or undeserving of a high ranking.  Since I don't get to see many ASC games I based my rank on what they did the last couple years in the playoffs and what I read in the Kickoff write-ups.  H-S was the #1 ranked offensive team last year, and although they lose their stud QB, it seems they have experienced and talented guys in the wings.  In addition, they return 8 defensive starters, which I have to believe will help them against MHB.  I know MHB returns the same on defense, but I feel it's easier to improve on defense against a team with a year or two experience.  I am not a huge fan of the MHB offense- at least in what I read from last year.  They struggled mightily to pass vs. Wesley I remember.  Is that because they feature a QB that is better at running than passing?  I don't know for sure, but that's what I based my decision on. 
Having seen MHB in 2007, I have lots of respect for the program.

Thanks for the reply Emma and no worries I know you weren't trying to disrespect UMHB. One thing I would point out about HSU is not only are they losing their QB, but their best WR and their coach of 20+ years. They do have some talented guys waiting but that is a lot to replace in one off season especially when they are a pass happy offense.

To answer your question about UMHB, our QB is much better at running than passing but that has pretty much always been the case for us (In one playoff game we only threw 3 passes the whole game). This year could be different, we still have the same QB as last year but we are going to be doing some different things on offense that will allow us to pass more... if we need to.

Thanks again for the work and let the fun begin.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 01, 2011, 12:29:47 am
emma17,
   
Thanks for replying. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what happens. And by the way, be expecting a very interesting change in the way the Cru's offense will be run this year. I cant say exactly but we'll all see soon.

GO CRU!!!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 01, 2011, 12:30:33 am
As a voter, after the obvious first two there was such a knot for me between 3-11 and then a gap between 11 (Bethel) and 12 (Wartburg) and then another knot all the way down. I had Salisbury higher than most, and didn't have another WIAC team in the top 25, as I'm on a 'wait and see' with them. I don't know how much difference there is between a Salisbury, a Wittenberg, a UW-SP, or a Del Val until the first game or three.

We're now blessed with a lot of good to great teams in D-3 behind the obvious powers. I think that's excellent for the growth of the sport and the division. There's nothing better to incent excellence than to strive toward an aspirational peer, and we have a couple in D-3. I think the equality of the top programs after the Purple shows that.

This was my thought exactly. I had Bethel higher in the knot than you, given they beat 2 of those 'knot' teams (UST and Wheaton) in the playoffs last year and those two 'knot' teams each beat another 'knot' team (Linfield and Coe). But all those games were ridiculously close games that could have broken either way for either team. Parsing out where to place those teams is tricky, especially this early in the year. Several of these teams will face off in the regular season and give us a clearer indicator as the season progresses.

I was pretty confident in the teams I had ranked 1 through 17 (Wittenberg) deserving to be in the Top 25 and feeling like they'll be somewhere in the poll at seasons end. After that, it got a lot murkier for me. 18 through 30 really seemed like a quagmire.

The great thing is that there are sure to be a few teams in the top 17, maybe even the top 10, that fail to impress as we anticipate and don't even make the field. But there are also some teams nobody even sees coming at this point. Bethel is a great example (can you tell I'm a Bethel fan  ;)) from last year. From unranked to closing the season in the top 5. I had a lot of confidence in last years team, but most people not close to the MIAC probably didn't have any of those expectations. There are bound to be some out there this year. No one knows perfectly how a season breaks down, but some are going to disappoint and some are going to exceed the pollsters expectations.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 01, 2011, 12:32:45 am
Crufootball! haha, was he replying to you or me? I couldnt tell. Either way i know you and i will both agree we are a little better than number 10 forsure. hahaha. Go Cru!!!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 01, 2011, 12:34:17 am
I was interested in the fact that the Top 25 Fan Poll tabulation reflected results so similar to the D3football.com poll. That was unexpected to me because as the ballots were coming in, there seemed to be quite a variance in rankings. To give a bit more of a glimpse into the variance (and affirm that the pollsters are independent thinkers), I worked up some more data from the initial D3 Top 25 Fan Poll.

Below is a list of each Top 25 team along with the highest ranking each received on any individual ballot and the lowest ranking each received on an individual ballot.

TEAM- (Highest ranking, lowest ranking)
1. UWW- (1,2)
2. Mount Union- (1,2)
3. North Central- (3,5)
4. Wesley- (3,6)
5. St. Thomas- (3,8)
6. UMHB- (4,10)
7. Bethel- (5, 13)
8. Wheaton- (7,15)
9. Linfield- (6,22)
10. Coe- (8, 23)
11. Ohio Northern- (9, unranked)
12. Wartburg- (9, 25)
13. Montclair State- (10, unranked)
14. Thomas More- (10, unranked)
15. Cortland State- (11, unranked)
16. Hardin-Simmons- (6, unranked)
17. Cal Lutheran- (11, unranked)
18. Alfred- (17, unranked)
19. Trine- (11, unranked)
20. Wabash- (14, unranked)
21. Wittenberg- (15, unranked)
22. UW-Stevens Point- (12, unranked)
23. St. John's- (15, unranked)
24. Rowan- (19, unranked)
25. Franklin- (19, unranked)

Wow, that is really interesting. Both in seeing the variance among fan opinion and the fact that in the end it still broke so similarly to the D3football.com official poll.

Which makes me think, I'd love to see a similar breakdown of the official poll. Pat, would that ever be in the realm of possibility?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 01, 2011, 12:52:23 am
In theory, yes, but I would have to do the breakdowns by hand as well and I'm not sure I would have the time to do that during the season.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 01, 2011, 09:07:02 am
In theory, yes, but I would have to do the breakdowns by hand.

Great....we'll expect them by Friday.

 ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 01, 2011, 09:14:00 am
From what I read about Coe and Cal Lutheran, they both have very good teams returning.

Cal Lutheran seems to be a team on the rise and should challenge Linfield for the conference title.

I think both will have surprisingly good seasons.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 01, 2011, 10:03:10 am
From what I read about Coe and Cal Lutheran, they both have very good teams returning.

Cal Lutheran seems to be a team on the rise and should challenge Linfield for the conference title.
I think both will have surprisingly good seasons.

02 Warhawk, that would certainly be surprising, if not an amazing accomplishment.  Cal Lutheran and Linfield play in different conferences!!  ;)

However, I don't think Linfield having a surprisingly good season would be all that big of a surprise.  They haven't had a losing season in a gazillion years!!  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 01, 2011, 12:02:49 pm
From what I read about Coe and Cal Lutheran, they both have very good teams returning.

Cal Lutheran seems to be a team on the rise and should challenge Linfield for the conference title.
I think both will have surprisingly good seasons.

02 Warhawk, that would certainly be surprising, if not an amazing accomplishment.  Cal Lutheran and Linfield play in different conferences!!  ;)

I have no excuse...oops

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 01, 2011, 12:33:14 pm
From what I read about Coe and Cal Lutheran, they both have very good teams returning.

Cal Lutheran seems to be a team on the rise and should challenge Linfield for the conference title.
I think both will have surprisingly good seasons.

02 Warhawk, that would certainly be surprising, if not an amazing accomplishment.  Cal Lutheran and Linfield play in different conferences!!  ;)

I have no excuse...oops

 :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Been there, done that. We all have a post or two like that up our sleeve!

But the Cal Lutheran v. Linfield matchup is a key game for early season Top 25 clarity. Both for these two programs and for how to gauge the their conferences, to a degree, the rest of the year. It'll be a good matchup.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 01, 2011, 03:24:51 pm
Hard to keep all the Lutherans straight. I was in Minnesota for 4 years and I still have trouble on all of the darm Lutheran schools (and what flavor of Lutherans they are...) ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 01, 2011, 09:01:21 pm
Hard to keep all the Lutherans straight. I was in Minnesota for 4 years and I still have trouble on all of the darm Lutheran schools (and what flavor of Lutherans they are...) ;D

And all the Concordia's...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 01, 2011, 09:44:32 pm
Hard to keep all the Lutherans straight. I was in Minnesota for 4 years and I still have trouble on all of the darm Lutheran schools (and what flavor of Lutherans they are...) ;D

And all the Concordia's...

. . . and Wesleyan's, too.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 02, 2011, 10:15:07 am
And it's a good thing I didn't cast an NCAC 'homer' vote for Wooster at #25.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 06, 2011, 01:35:30 pm
From what I read about Coe and Cal Lutheran, they both have very good teams returning.

I think both will have surprisingly good seasons.

Thanks to a butt whooping issued by Harden Simmons, but prediction about Coe isn't going according to plan. me ranking them at 7th looks a little foolish now.

I guess Coe busing it all the way from Iowa to deep in the heart of Texas didn't help their cause.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 07, 2011, 12:19:21 am
1. UW-Whitewater (12)       348            (1)
2.  Mount Union (2)            338            (2)
3.  Wesley                        316            (4)
4. St. Thomas                   292            (5)
5. Mary Hardin-Baylor         289            (6)
6. Linfield                         261            (9)
7. Bethel                          258            (7)
8. Wheaton                      243            (8)
9. Ohio Northern               198            (11)
10. Hardin-Simmons           196            (16)
11. North Central               185             (4)
12. Wartburg                    156             (12)
13. Montclair State            154             (13)
14. Cortland State             144             (15)
15. Cal Lutheran                130             (17)
16. Thomas More               128             (14)
17. UW-Stevens Point         100             (22)
18. Wabash                         92             (20)
19. Wittenberg                     90             (21)
20. Redlands                        84              (U)
21. Alfred                            83              (18)
22. St. John's                       80              (23)
23. Trine                              70              (19)
24. Coe                                67              (10)
25. Franklin                           60              (25)

Also receiving votes: Baldwin Wallace (34), Delaware Valley (26), Hampden-Sydney (19), Louisiana College (15),  Elmhurst (13), Illinois Wesleyan (13), UW-Oshkosh (12), Pacific Lutheran (12), Salisbury (11), Willamette (7), Washington and Lee (6), UW-LaCrosse (5), Rowan (4), UW-Platteville (3), Adrian (2), Lycoming (2), St. John Fisher(2), Johns Hopkins (1), Washington University (1).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 07, 2011, 11:05:55 am
This one's confusing for me  :o

UST moves up a spot after a ugly win (for a team that is supposed to be #4): 1 for 13 on third downs, 55 yds rushing on 30 attempts and 2 for 5 in the redzone. I get that NCC dropped so there was an open spot. But I actually dropped UST a spot in my bracket. They played poorly against SNC. SNC is a solid team, but they're not in anyones top 25.

Linfield doesn't play anyone and goes from 9 to 6? This is just really strange.

And how can people be putting North Central above Redlands?!? (The official poll had this too) Redlands proved, on the field, that they are a better football team in 2011. NCC would have probably beaten them last year, but this isn't last year anymore folks. For the life of me I don't understand how you can keep a team above another team in the poll after it loses head to head. Especially when there's been only one game. NCC has no quality wins this season to justify this. All they have is a preseason ranking that is totally conjecture. Maybe NCC ends up being a top 15 team. But at this point, I think they've got to prove it on the field and earn/climb their way back up there. My 2Ę. Given the way Coe dropped after losing to the #10 team in our poll, it makes me wonder if NCC at 12 is a bit of name recognition.

Man, what did I have for breakfast this morning?!? I seem like a crotchety old man  :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 07, 2011, 11:28:54 am
Redlands proved, on the field, that they are a better football team on Sept. 4, 2011. Not everyone is forced to believe that they are a better team hands-down, not this early in the season.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 07, 2011, 11:50:58 am
I think the week 1 rankings gap between NCC and Redlands was too great for Redlands to be in front of NCC in week 2. However, if Coe was still ranked ahead of Harden-Simmons....then you would have a valid argument, b/c both were in the top 25 BEFORE they played.

St. Norbert's wasn't ranked to begin with and then they lost....so why would anyone catapult them in the top 25? Putting a new team in the top 25 means someone has to be ousted. It makes since that Redlands enters the top 25 (with a win over a good team), and Rowans falls out of the rankings (week one loss). With that being said, who would you have St. Norbert's replace? Almost everyone in the bottom half of the bracket won (or didn't play).

Linfield moved up b/c Coe and NCC lost. But why they jumped ahead of Bethel? Probably b/c of some inconsistent voting by our NWC friends  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 07, 2011, 11:51:58 am
Hazzben- I hear you loud and clear and I think I agree.
I dropped UST to 6, which was doing them a favor.
Linfield at 6?  I have them at 22- Great program yes, but they have a lot to prove having lost their very good QB.
People actually think Ohio Northern is the 9th best team in the country?

I see both sides of the NCC- Redlands issue.  I'm an NCC fan and have watched them three times in the last year, I know they are good.  But, so was Redlands last year.  I think you convinced me, the Fan Poll is refreshed each week.  As such, Redlands should be ahead of NCC until NCC earns their way back.     

This is the weekend that will convince me of MHB.  They play a very below average Lacrosse offense but a good Lacrosse defense.  If they come out and score big, I'll eat my words and give them a better ranking.  Until then, calling them the 5th best team in the country is awfully generous.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 07, 2011, 12:23:17 pm
RE: NCC and Redlands.  Don't forget that it was a very close game AT Redlands.  If Redlands had won AT NCC, things might have gone differently.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 07, 2011, 12:24:59 pm
Linfield at 6?  I have them at 22- Great program yes, but they have a lot to prove having lost their very good QB.

Whitewater lost a very good QB at the end of the 2009 season, but I don't think anyone was going to drop them in the bottom of the pool to start the 2010 season.

Linfield is a top ten team. They reload each year like Mount has been doing, but not exactly on the same caliber as Mount.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 07, 2011, 12:46:23 pm
This is the weekend that will convince me of MHB.  They play a very below average Lacrosse offense but a good Lacrosse defense.  If they come out and score big, I'll eat my words and give them a better ranking.  Until then, calling them the 5th best team in the country is awfully generous.

So would 26 points scored or a 19 point victory count as big enough to earn the ranking? 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 07, 2011, 01:36:11 pm
The fun of rankings are that they don't mean anything (unless you're in the FB$) and with so few data points available this early in the season everything is purely speculative. That's why we have 44 teams ranked in the top 25 from only 14 pollsters. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the season that number is down to between 30-35. This early in the season we're just guessing who we think is good and until the end of the season when we can see who's done what I don't put any weight on ranks. Plus with only 14 people voting I could cause a lot of variance by myself with a weird ballot. I had Coe out of my top 25, but if I had voted terribly and put them 3rd they'd have gone from 24th up to 19th.

The one good thing about the polls this early is to see who are those teams just off the top 25 but getting some votes because different people have more knowledge about teams in different regions so they may put someone on their list that others may have no idea about and it brings them onto people's radars.

Just because team A beat team B doesn't necessarily mean that team A is the better team and deserves the higher ranking, just that on that particular day they were better. I think most people would say UWW is better than Franklin (even I will admit that), but if Franklin pulls a 1 in 10 (or whatever chance you want to say) win this weekend, how many people are going to claim Franklin is a better team? Sure Franklin will rise in voters eyes, but are you really going to say UWW still isn't one of the top teams?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 07, 2011, 01:47:30 pm
This is the weekend that will convince me of MHB.  They play a very below average Lacrosse offense but a good Lacrosse defense.  If they come out and score big, I'll eat my words and give them a better ranking.  Until then, calling them the 5th best team in the country is awfully generous.

So would 26 points scored or a 19 point victory count as big enough to earn the ranking?
A fair question Cru- if they hadnt been beaten the last X number of years in the playoffs- a 19 point difference would earn them a higher ranking supported by past performance.  I will have to see the stats and hear the details of the game. If MHB is up 28-0 at half, but plays all subs in second half and wins 28-14, I'd give em a better ranking. If MHB wins 24-0 and played all starters and struggled to pass the ball, I'd probably keep them lower. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 07, 2011, 02:02:09 pm
Good points FC- but if Franklin beats UWW this Sat then they will be ranked ahead of UWW in my poll next week.
UWW will have a chance to pass them throughout the season/post season- if they deserve it.

02'- I hear you on Linfield and it was hard for me to rank them 22 because Im a fan of their program. I would love for them to give me reason this week to move them up.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 07, 2011, 02:25:50 pm
This is the weekend that will convince me of MHB.  They play a very below average Lacrosse offense but a good Lacrosse defense.  If they come out and score big, I'll eat my words and give them a better ranking.  Until then, calling them the 5th best team in the country is awfully generous.

So would 26 points scored or a 19 point victory count as big enough to earn the ranking?
A fair question Cru- if they hadnt been beaten the last X number of years in the playoffs- a 19 point difference would earn them a higher ranking supported by past performance.  I will have to see the stats and hear the details of the game. If MHB is up 28-0 at half, but plays all subs in second half and wins 28-14, I'd give em a better ranking. If MHB wins 24-0 and played all starters and struggled to pass the ball, I'd probably keep them lower.

I think I am still confused by your lack of confidence in UMHB, you mention our playoff record like it is something we should be ashamed of. Over the course of the last 5+ years you can count on one hand the amount of teams that have had better success than we have had.

I have full confidence that UMHB will win the game but this is our first real game and we didn't have a scrimmage this year since it was canceled. La Crosse comes in having already played a game and with the knowledge that if they lose again they will be 0-2 and their season is almost already lost so they have a ton to play for.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 07, 2011, 02:45:13 pm
I think the rankings may have jumbled because of where folks had Coe and NCC, and when they did the rankings shuffle it all depended on who put who where to replace them.

My outlier is Thomas More. I don't have 'em ranked. I think there are 25 better teams, maybe 30 better. Doesn't mean they are bad, nor does it mean they won't move into my rankings. It just seems their league is pretty weak sauce right now. (And yes, I know this is coming from an NCAC guy...)

Week 4 or 5 is when the pretenders and contenders emerge, after everyone has 3 or 4 games under their belts and conference season is in full swing.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Raider 68 on September 07, 2011, 02:48:25 pm
Any upsets of this week's Top 10 on Saturday? :-\
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 07, 2011, 02:54:48 pm
Any upsets of this week's Top 10 on Saturday? :-\

If there is, I'm certain it'll involve a WAIC team. A large chuck of the WIAC is either in or playing a top 10 team this week.

St Thomas @ River Falls
LaCrosse @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (TX)
Oshkosh @ Mount Union (OH)
Whitewater @ Franklin
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Raider 68 on September 07, 2011, 03:02:31 pm
Any upsets of this week's Top 10 on Saturday? :-\

If there is, I'm certain it'll involve a WAIC team. A large chuck of the WIAC is either in or playing a top 10 team this week.

St Thomas @ River Falls
LaCrosse @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (TX)
Oshkosh @ Mount Union (OH)
Whitewater @ Franklin

The only one that has a change is the first one, not sure about UW-RF this year, but we'll see! Good post +k
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 07, 2011, 03:09:53 pm
Another reason the rankings can be jumbled around could be because I didn't get my ballot in last week but I did this week. But that also means that there was someone else who didn't get it in this week. So that could be a reason for the change.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 07, 2011, 04:00:50 pm
Redlands proved, on the field, that they are a better football team on Sept. 4, 2011. Not everyone is forced to believe that they are a better team hands-down, not this early in the season.

I'd absolutely grant that at seasons end or even mid-season you could make an argument for ranking Redlands below NCC. But you note that on Sept. 4, 2011 Redlands proved, on the field, that they were the better team. Fact is, there is no other evidence to the contrary in 2011 to refute this. So how can you reasonably rank them lower? Because you think that in the future what you know to be true after week one might not be the case? Personally that just seems overly subjective to me when you have such an obvious piece of objective criteria pointing in the other direction.

I've got no beef with a Wk 8 NCC team ranked higher than Redlands, even if the latter is still undefeated. There could be some impressive things NCC has done by that point to prove it on the field. The problem is they haven't proved any of them on the field at this point. All we have to go on in the Week 1 polls is 1 result, in which Redlands beat North Central. That's all I'm saying. Voters certainly have a right to vote how they see fit. And some no doubt view their polls as how they project the season finishing. I'm just saying those 'projection' polls are pretty shaky this early in the season faced with the cold hard facts on the field.

Just because team A beat team B doesn't necessarily mean that team A is the better team and deserves the higher ranking, just that on that particular day they were better. I think most people would say UWW is better than Franklin (even I will admit that), but if Franklin pulls a 1 in 10 (or whatever chance you want to say) win this weekend, how many people are going to claim Franklin is a better team? Sure Franklin will rise in voters eyes, but are you really going to say UWW still isn't one of the top teams?

Agree to disagree here. If team A beats team B, then team A is the better team. Maybe team B would win 9 out of 10, but that's just conjecture. There is no objective proof that this would be the case. Maybe team A was just the better team on that given day, but that's still the only objective thing you have to go on. UST should have been regarded as better than Bethel last year at the end of the regular season. They won on the field. After Bethel beat UST on the road in the playoffs, well now you can start wondering about who would win __ out of 10. Now if Redlands ends up 7-3 and NCC 9-1, you've got some objective criteria for arguing that NCC is still the better team despite the head to head. Teams improve, some more than others, as a season progresses. The problem I see is that you have no such objective evidence after week one of the season. Despite that nagging little thing that happened last Saturday on the field.

But I do appreciate the dialogue. This is exactly why Polls -- and fan polls in particular -- are so much fun. We get to debate like crazy!  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on September 07, 2011, 04:48:40 pm
02 You forgot to list UWEC @ St John's. Though the game is in Collegeville, Eau Claire always seems to be a thorn in the Johnnie's side. Particularly this early in the season. I know SJU is not in the Top Ten, I find it odd that you would pass up the opportunity to pump the WIAC on this. ;) By the way, I do agree with your post 100%.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 07, 2011, 05:04:06 pm
Any upsets of this week's Top 10 on Saturday? :-\

If there is, I'm certain it'll involve a WAIC team. A large chuck of the WIAC is either in or playing a top 10 team this week.

St Thomas @ River Falls UST looked vulnerable last week against SNC. I just don't know if UWRF is good enough to take advantage...very close but no upset
LaCrosse @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (TX) On paper only. UMHB controls the lines and Lax can't get their offense moving
Oshkosh @ Mount Union (OH) On a limb, Oshkosh puts a scare in Mount, but talent & coaching carry the day
Whitewater @ Franklin Don't see it. Franklin keeps it close, but UWW jumps on LC's back and pulls away in the second half.
UWEC @ SJU UWEC leads at the half. SJU settles on Bruns & they come from behind to win in the second half.
Cal Lutheran @ Linfield Cal Lutheran does what it couldn't do in the playoffs last year. SCIAC makes a statement for 2nd week in a row**
UWP @ UWSP Platteville wins a tight one that shows just why the WIAC is so highly regarded. The annual WIAC chaos begins in earnest**
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 07, 2011, 05:41:26 pm
Redlands proved, on the field, that they are a better football team on Sept. 4, 2011. Not everyone is forced to believe that they are a better team hands-down, not this early in the season.

I'd absolutely grant that at seasons end or even mid-season you could make an argument for ranking Redlands below NCC. But you note that on Sept. 4, 2011 Redlands proved, on the field, that they were the better team. Fact is, there is no other evidence to the contrary in 2011 to refute this. So how can you reasonably rank them lower? Because you think that in the future what you know to be true after week one might not be the case? Personally that just seems overly subjective to me when you have such an obvious piece of objective criteria pointing in the other direction.

Because it's an opinion -- 25 of them, in fact. If you just want to list people by record with head-to-head results, that's what standings are for.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 07, 2011, 05:57:21 pm
02 You forgot to list UWEC @ St John's. Though the game is in Collegeville, Eau Claire always seems to be a thorn in the Johnnie's side. Particularly this early in the season. I know SJU is not in the Top Ten, I find it odd that you would pass up the opportunity to pump the WIAC on this. ;) By the way, I do agree with your post 100%.

Out of the games I mentioned above, I think the underdog that has the best chance to win is Franklin, actually.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on September 07, 2011, 06:24:17 pm
Another reason the rankings can be jumbled around could be because I didn't get my ballot in last week but I did this week. But that also means that there was someone else who didn't get it in this week. So that could be a reason for the change.
  I got mine in last week but not this week.  Too much birthday celebration over the 3 day weekend............... ;) ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 07, 2011, 07:40:20 pm
Cru- I didn't have a chance to look up actual records for this comment, so I could be a bit misguided. My issue w ranking MHB high is how they lose and who they lose to. First, they were in a dogfight against a very average Lacrosse team last year. Second, they dont pass the ball well- it's like they choose to ignore the invention entirely.  Wesley made them look silly when they tried to pass. Third- they dont do well against teams that can truly stop the run. I think they played UWW 3 or 4 times in last few years and really struggled to score (although 2007 semi final game was a good one).
A top 5 (or 10) team in my opinion should be able to put points up against the best competition- and in today's day and age that usually requires more offensive balance.  I dont know how true the old adage of "defense wins championships" is anymore. Defense is a must and it keeps you in the game- but you have to be able to score points to be a top team. IMO.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 07, 2011, 08:11:05 pm
Quote
Agree to disagree here. If team A beats team B, then team A is the better team

Really?

There have been so many games won on a fluke bounce in the history of football. Is Auburn better than Utah State? Most neutral observers think that Utah State was the better team, and outplayed Auburn for the entire game.

And then there's this scenario, in successive weeks:

Team A beats Team B
Team B beats Team C
Team C beats Team A

There are no injury problems nor real home field advantage. Who's the better team?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 07, 2011, 08:21:10 pm
02 You forgot to list UWEC @ St John's. Though the game is in Collegeville, Eau Claire always seems to be a thorn in the Johnnie's side. Particularly this early in the season. I know SJU is not in the Top Ten, I find it odd that you would pass up the opportunity to pump the WIAC on this. ;) By the way, I do agree with your post 100%.

Out of the games I mentioned above, I think the underdog that has the best chance to win is Franklin, actually.

 ???  ???

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, 02, or just being a nervous Nellie!!  I think UWW covers the spread (24.5) on the OAC pick'ems. River Falls and Eau Claire have much better shots at being part of upsets than Franklin has of upseting your Warhawks, IMO. Oshkosh and La Crosse? Not even close on the road against those two teams.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 07, 2011, 09:06:50 pm
I may be biased, but I think Franklin certainly has a chance. They kept it close for 3 quarters last year in the playoffs with no rushing game at all and they appear to be able to run this season. They'll definitely put up some points, it's just a matter of whether the UWW defense or the Franklin defense can make more plays.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 07, 2011, 10:49:15 pm
Quote
Agree to disagree here. If team A beats team B, then team A is the better team

Really?

There have been so many games won on a fluke bounce in the history of football. Is Auburn better than Utah State? Most neutral observers think that Utah State was the better team, and outplayed Auburn for the entire game.

And then there's this scenario, in successive weeks:

Team A beats Team B
Team B beats Team C
Team C beats Team A

There are no injury problems nor real home field advantage. Who's the better team?

Yep, call me crazy, but when a team wins on the field, I think they're the better team. Hence when SJU won the 2003 national title, I thought they were the better team. Never mind that some felt Mount would win 7, 8 or 9 out of 10. They weren't playing 10 times. They played once. Hence, SJU ended up #1 in the polls and got a national title over a Mt Union team that was being hailed as possibly their greatest ever prior to the game.

And your second scenario is just silly. It has nothing to do with week 1 in the polls (which is what this discussion is about). Team A has played exactly one game against Team B. Team A won. Team A and Team B have played no one else so far this season. While they will play other teams, they haven't yet. You have only 1 objective result to consult this far. And Team A has it in spades. Nice hypothetical, but we have a real world situation. Redlands, a real team, beat North Central. Another real team, head to head.

I specifically state that I could see NCC being ranked above Redlands in later weeks once more data is available. Maybe Redlands suffers a loss. Maybe NCC rebounds and starts dominating teams for the rest of the season. Great, move them above Redlands if objective and subjective material support it. But as of week won, every bit of objective data says Redlands was better.

And 'most neutral observers think Utah State was the better team'. Really? Show me that data on neutral observers. And no, Utah State did not outplay Auburn for the 'entire game'. That's the 'entire' reason Auburn won the game. There was a large portion of the game that Utah State did outplay Auburn. BUT, it wasn't for the 'entire game', hence, Auburn won. Aka, they scored more points than Utah State, get a W in the column, etc.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 07, 2011, 10:50:24 pm
I may be biased, but I think Franklin certainly has a chance. They kept it close for 3 quarters last year in the playoffs with no rushing game at all and they appear to be able to run this season. They'll definitely put up some points, it's just a matter of whether the UWW defense or the Franklin defense can make more plays.

I agree, the Grizz were within 7 - 14 points for 3 quarters. And they may very well keep it with 7 -14 points for three quarters again.  But in the end, Warhawks will prevail by +25. If you dissect their games over this run, you will discover that this is not unusual for them.  In fact, it is commonly their winning formula. IMO, there were some interesting dynamics at work in that game in week 11 last year & especially the week leading up to it (having to start a QB with 0 career starts and just a handful of snaps vs a 4 year starter and one of D3's best gunslingers, etc). Nothing that happened last week suggests that Franklin won't throw the ball all over the place again this week. The Grizz offense rushed the ball for 200+ last week, but considering the opponent (losers of their last 21 games), I don't think your assumption about the Grizz running game can be made quite yet. If I were a Grizz fan, I'd be concerned with my own defense, they didn't really make the plays last week against a really bad team. I look for UWW to play a very strong game, creating scoring opportunities by forcing turnovers, pounding the rock, and Blanchard showing the Grizz faithful what they missed in week 11 last year. I'm glad to see that Franklin is going to stream the game live over the 'net.  Are you expecting a large crowd?   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 07, 2011, 10:53:52 pm
I may be biased, but I think Franklin certainly has a chance. They kept it close for 3 quarters last year in the playoffs with no rushing game at all and they appear to be able to run this season. They'll definitely put up some points, it's just a matter of whether the UWW defense or the Franklin defense can make more plays.

While I was writing this, Bobo responded with some of the same points, but I still thought I'd post the below nonetheless:

I preface my thoughts by agreeing that Franklin CERTAINLY has a chance. However, I do think your reasoning based on last year's game may be a bit optimistic.  While in the strictest sense, Franklin "kept it close" for 3 quarters", UW-W did score 6 seconds into the 4th quarter extending their lead to 17 points. And while they may not have had a rushing game at all AGAINST UW-W (-11 yards rushing), they did average over 160 yards per game on the ground when you take away the sack yardage (which I still believe should be held against the passing game). There are also facts that could support a UW-W blowout win (which I readily acknowledge you never said there WEREN'T):

1. Last year's final score probably shouldn't be completely ignored: UW-W 52-21.
2. It is improbable that sophomore QB Jonny West's game is quite at the level that Gagliardi Finalist Kyle Ray's was when he played against UW-W.
3. In last year's game sophomore QB Lee Brekke was making his first collegiate start for UW-W. 

But once again, having said all that, I do believe Franklin has a chance to win.

Enjoy the game!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 07, 2011, 10:56:41 pm
Yep, call me crazy, but when a team wins on the field, I think they're the better team. Hence when SJU won the 2003 national title, I thought they were the better team. Never mind that some felt Mount would win 7, 8 or 9 out of 10. They weren't playing 10 times. They played once. Hence, SJU ended up #1 in the polls and got a national title over a Mt Union team that was being hailed as possibly their greatest ever prior to the game.

And your second scenario is just silly. It has nothing to do with week 1 in the polls (which is what this discussion is about).

Your first scenario has nothing to do with week 1 in the polls either. I doubt anyone would really give the winner of the title game a No. 2 vote. (Unless there were somehow some better team left out of the field entirely.)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 07, 2011, 11:17:30 pm
I'm glad to see that Franklin is going to stream the game live over the 'net.  Are you expecting a large crowd?
Well, probably not a large crowd by UWW standards, but for a school with 1000 students we should get at least 2-3k packed in. If it doesn't rain (40% chance at the moment) the weather is looking nice
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 07, 2011, 11:19:57 pm
Nice post Bleed.  And FC Griz I respect your stance.
I don't understand the number of posters that say a team doesn't "have a chance"- especially to keep a game close, for a team that has shown some level of ability.  Both Franklin and Oshkosh are big underdogs according to some pickem boards, and many people pick UWW and MT without any comment whatsoever about the abilities of the teams they are playing.  I feel it's a bit disrespectful of the talent and the work the athletes put in the offseason, and the work the coaches put in. 

I think all good teams have a chance against historically great teams, and all it takes is some breaks along the way and confidence to build and doubt to creep in with 20 yr olds and you end up with a result you didn't expect.  I didn't expect Stevens Point to beat UWW three years ago.   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 08, 2011, 12:24:25 am
Nice post Bleed.  And FC Griz I respect your stance.
I don't understand the number of posters that say a team doesn't "have a chance"- especially to keep a game close, for a team that has shown some level of ability.  Both Franklin and Oshkosh are big underdogs according to some pickem boards, and many people pick UWW and MT without any comment whatsoever about the abilities of the teams they are playing.  I feel it's a bit disrespectful of the talent and the work the athletes put in the offseason, and the work the coaches put in. 

I think all good teams have a chance against historically great teams, and all it takes is some breaks along the way and confidence to build and doubt to creep in with 20 yr olds and you end up with a result you didn't expect.  I didn't expect Stevens Point to beat UWW three years ago.   

We wouldn't have the word "upset" in our sports vocabulary if every or most or many teams that "have a chance" to win were winning these games with regularity. We call it an upset for the simple fact that they are not winning these games on a regular basis & we don't expect they will win.  That Point game was an upset because you and many others never thought UWSP had a chance, me included. We didn't expect it so it was an upset in our collective minds. Point fans might disagree with us - they thought they could win - we weren't disrespecting them because we thought otherwise. Our view then had nothing to do with the dreaded "D" word in the same way it has nothing to do with what I'm saying today. You're entitled to your opinion just like anybody else is entitled to theirs; but, IMO it's wrong to accuse them of being disrepectful to others because their opinion differs from you.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 08, 2011, 09:21:06 am
Yep, call me crazy, but when a team wins on the field, I think they're the better team. Hence when SJU won the 2003 national title, I thought they were the better team. Never mind that some felt Mount would win 7, 8 or 9 out of 10. They weren't playing 10 times. They played once. Hence, SJU ended up #1 in the polls and got a national title over a Mt Union team that was being hailed as possibly their greatest ever prior to the game.

And your second scenario is just silly. It has nothing to do with week 1 in the polls (which is what this discussion is about).

Your first scenario has nothing to do with week 1 in the polls either. I doubt anyone would really give the winner of the title game a No. 2 vote. (Unless there were somehow some better team left out of the field entirely.)

Fair enough. But I remember talking to folks about the fact that they still felt Mount was the better team than SJU in 2003, despite the results on the field. That's what we love about having a playoff, it proves it on the field. Call me crazy, but I think SJU, having won on the field, deserved to be ranked higher than Mount. I get that it's not exactly the same as a wk 1 victory. But a head to head playoff victory has more correlation to what happened on the field in wk 1 than a hypothetical.

But contrary to how the majority of voters in both the fan poll and D3 poll voted, one week into the season, Redlands beat North Central. For a voter to place North Central above Redlands at this point in the season is contrary to all objective evidence on the subject. They've essentially said, subjective weighs more in my poll than objective, on the field evidence. 4, 5, 6 weeks from now things will be immensely more convoluted, you'll have all sorts of objective evidence that will necessarily lead to subjective weighting of that evidence. That's what makes it fun. However, the preseason and early weeks are the most subjective times for the polls. In my world, that'd be where I gave the most weight to the only objective evidence available.

Considering I've now annoyed and exhausted myself with this subject, I can't imagine how much everyone else must be sick of it. I'll shut up now!  ;D :-X
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 08, 2011, 09:45:42 am
02 You forgot to list UWEC @ St John's. Though the game is in Collegeville, Eau Claire always seems to be a thorn in the Johnnie's side. Particularly this early in the season. I know SJU is not in the Top Ten, I find it odd that you would pass up the opportunity to pump the WIAC on this. ;) By the way, I do agree with your post 100%.

Out of the games I mentioned above, I think the underdog that has the best chance to win is Franklin, actually.

 ???  ???

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, 02, or just being a nervous Nellie!!  I think UWW covers the spread (24.5) on the OAC pick'ems. River Falls and Eau Claire have much better shots at being part of upsets than Franklin has of upseting your Warhawks, IMO. Oshkosh and La Crosse? Not even close on the road against those two teams.

I'm not saying they'll lose. I'm just saying that out of the games I mentioned below, I just think Franklin has the best chance for the upset.

St Thomas @ River Falls
LaCrosse @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (TX)
Oshkosh @ Mount Union (OH)
Whitewater @ Franklin

RF beating St. Thomas? No way
LaCrosse traveling a million hours on bus and winning AT MHB? No chance
Mount losing at home to an unranked team? Please
A tough, ranked Franklin team knocking off UWW, in Franklin? Possible

That's all I'm saying I'm not taking this game for granted. UWW has to lose eventually...right?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 08, 2011, 09:48:01 am
I may be biased, but I think Franklin certainly has a chance. They kept it close for 3 quarters last year in the playoffs with no rushing game at all and they appear to be able to run this season. They'll definitely put up some points, it's just a matter of whether the UWW defense or the Franklin defense can make more plays.

With an All-American QB
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 08, 2011, 10:17:44 am
02 You forgot to list UWEC @ St John's. Though the game is in Collegeville, Eau Claire always seems to be a thorn in the Johnnie's side. Particularly this early in the season. I know SJU is not in the Top Ten, I find it odd that you would pass up the opportunity to pump the WIAC on this. ;) By the way, I do agree with your post 100%.

Out of the games I mentioned above, I think the underdog that has the best chance to win is Franklin, actually.

 ???  ???

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, 02, or just being a nervous Nellie!!  I think UWW covers the spread (24.5) on the OAC pick'ems. River Falls and Eau Claire have much better shots at being part of upsets than Franklin has of upseting your Warhawks, IMO. Oshkosh and La Crosse? Not even close on the road against those two teams.

I'm not saying they'll lose. I'm just saying that out of the games I mentioned below, I just think Franklin has the best chance for the upset.

St Thomas @ River Falls
LaCrosse @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (TX)
Oshkosh @ Mount Union (OH)
Whitewater @ Franklin

RF beating St. Thomas? No way
LaCrosse traveling a million hours on bus and winning AT MHB? No chance
Mount losing at home to an unranked team? Please
A tough, ranked Franklin team knocking off UWW, in Franklin? Possible

That's all I'm saying I'm not taking this game for granted. UWW has to lose eventually...right?

Is LaCrosse really traveling by bus?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 08, 2011, 10:19:53 am
02 You forgot to list UWEC @ St John's. Though the game is in Collegeville, Eau Claire always seems to be a thorn in the Johnnie's side. Particularly this early in the season. I know SJU is not in the Top Ten, I find it odd that you would pass up the opportunity to pump the WIAC on this. ;) By the way, I do agree with your post 100%.

Out of the games I mentioned above, I think the underdog that has the best chance to win is Franklin, actually.

 ???  ???

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, 02, or just being a nervous Nellie!!  I think UWW covers the spread (24.5) on the OAC pick'ems. River Falls and Eau Claire have much better shots at being part of upsets than Franklin has of upseting your Warhawks, IMO. Oshkosh and La Crosse? Not even close on the road against those two teams.

I'm not saying they'll lose. I'm just saying that out of the games I mentioned below, I just think Franklin has the best chance for the upset.

St Thomas @ River Falls
LaCrosse @ Mary Hardin-Baylor (TX)
Oshkosh @ Mount Union (OH)
Whitewater @ Franklin

RF beating St. Thomas? No way
LaCrosse traveling a million hours on bus and winning AT MHB? No chance
Mount losing at home to an unranked team? Please
A tough, ranked Franklin team knocking off UWW, in Franklin? Possible

That's all I'm saying I'm not taking this game for granted. UWW has to lose eventually...right?

Is LaCrosse really traveling by bus?

Yes, sir.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 08, 2011, 10:26:12 am
Wow, I hope for their sake they have already left and can chop the drive up as much as possible.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: frank uible on September 08, 2011, 10:32:58 am
Just to keep the record straight we call a surprising outcome in a contest an upset because a 2 year old colt named Upset defeated Man O'War in the 1919 Sanford Stakes at Saratoga Race Course in Saratoga Springs, New York for Man O'War's sole lifetime loss.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 08, 2011, 01:37:49 pm
Easy now Bobo- I feel you have a slight tendency to argue things I haven't said.
First, I'm not criticizing people for different opinions- I am simply saying I believe it shows arrogance and disrespect to flat out say another team has "no chance" to beat my team- especially without logical evidence other than "because we have won x championships so there". 
And please stop putting words in my mouth- I never said or felt  "Stevens Point didn't have a chance"- you must have me confused w someone else.
To say I didn't expect Stevens Point to win is not the same, IMO, as saying Stevens Point "had no chance" to win.
Criticize me for what I say and not for what I didn't say.

Hazzben- you are fighting the good fight- many of us agree w your logic.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 08, 2011, 07:37:54 pm

While I was writing this, Bobo responded with some of the same points, but I still thought I'd post the below nonetheless:

I preface my thoughts by agreeing that Franklin CERTAINLY has a chance. However, I do think your reasoning based on last year's game may be a bit optimistic.  While in the strictest sense, Franklin "kept it close" for 3 quarters", UW-W did score 6 seconds into the 4th quarter extending their lead to 17 points. And while they may not have had a rushing game at all AGAINST UW-W (-11 yards rushing), they did average over 160 yards per game on the ground when you take away the sack yardage (which I still believe should be held against the passing game). There are also facts that could support a UW-W blowout win (which I readily acknowledge you never said there WEREN'T):

1. Last year's final score probably shouldn't be completely ignored: UW-W 52-21.
2. It is improbable that sophomore QB Jonny West's game is quite at the level that Gagliardi Finalist Kyle Ray's was when he played against UW-W.
3. In last year's game sophomore QB Lee Brekke was making his first collegiate start for UW-W. 

But once again, having said all that, I do believe Franklin has a chance to win.

Enjoy the game!

Lee Brekke had quite the game last year. You'd never have known it was his first start looking at him. If a sophomore can do that in his first start I wonder what a sophomore in his second start can do :D So I still have hope that West (while probably not performing quite as well as Kyle Ray) can perform well enough.

I think the key factors will be:
a) Whether the Grizzlies can run the ball at all... it's hard to win when you go for -11 yards against a tough defense. If we can at least produce an adequate rushing performance this time, that will force the defense to respect the run enough to open up the passing game
b) Which Grizzlies defense shows up... if the defense from the first half last week shows up, UWW will be too much even for our offense to keep up with. If the defense from the second half shows up and plays a full 60 minutes (a bad couple minutes either side of halftime last year hurt big) that could be enough for the Grizzlies offense to pull it off
c) Who gets off to the fast start... I don't know how much experience UWW has at being behind early on but I'm guessing it doesn't happen too often. Franklin likes to get out front early (but they managed to come back from 14 down last week) but I know it will be tougher to do that than normal. I think it could be important for the Grizzlies to get that early lead and put the pressure on to get UWW out of their comfort zone.

I think the range of possible scores for Franklin is somewhere between 17-40 (I just don't see UWW completely shutting them down and giving up single digits) and the range for UWW is 24-50 (could I make the ranges any larger? :P)
To be honest, if I absolutely had to predict I'd sadly have to say Franklin loses by 14-17... but that's why we play the game on the field rather than on paper. We can argue till we're blue in the face (or purple for Warhawks) but once the ball is kicked it all goes out the window. Too bad we have to wait another day and a half...

Win or lose, I think it'll be a great game. Hopefully both teams will learn a lot of valuable things and we'll meet again in a few months 8-)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 08, 2011, 08:09:04 pm
Just to play devil's advocate here (since the weekend can't come quick enough and there's been plenty of talk this week about voting methods) and to get the thread back onto the Fan Poll a bit...

If a team who's borderline top 25, like Franklin or UW-Oshkosh this week, were to have an excellent performance and come close but lose (say 28-27 or something) to one of the top teams would everyone still drop them out of the top 25 (unless they were ranked top 10-15 and would probably stay just in the rankings) or would someone consider keeping them at the same spot or even raising them slightly because of a strong performance against a top team?

I guess it's kinda like saying, is a loss a loss whether or not it's by 50 to an average team or 1 point to the best team and thus must be dropped at least X number of positions, or are there enough different levels of losses where there's the unique situation a loss could still be viewed positively in voters eyes

I'll go ahead and post my opinion... I don't know if I'd raise someone in the poll even though they lost (unless some teams above lost and dropped) but I would be willing to drop a team little or none if the right situation arose.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 08, 2011, 08:16:11 pm
^^ GrizzliesGrad, I've noticed in the past that lower ranked teams, teams also receiving votes or unranked teams that perform well against highly ranked teams have routinely increase their vote totals in the following weeks poll. IMO, they are rewarded for their strong performance. I think it sometimes matters what other teams around them do as well.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 08, 2011, 08:40:59 pm
If FC is close to UW-W, they will be rewarded.

I noticed that Auburn dropped out of the rankings in the AP and dropped a few spots in the coaches poll based on their 'win' against Utah State. Again, Utah State should have won, a couple of flukes happened and they didn't. Many commentators and observers I heard, read and watched Saturday and Sunday said Utah State was indeed the best team. Auburn was not rewarded at all for the win.

So if FC actually leads UW-W and loses like Utah St. lost, I bet UW-W won't be #1. Winning ugly is one thing; winning by a couple of flukes is another.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 09, 2011, 12:19:32 am
FC- To your question on a quality loss, I definately see a team moving up in rankings if they lose to a highly ranked team in a competitive game.  If Franklin losses in a close and well played game, then I for one will surely move them up in the fan poll.  As I already see Oshkosh as #15, if they play Mt tough and lose, I certainly won't move them down.  Depending on how others do, I may very well move them up. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 09, 2011, 08:53:13 am

If a team who's borderline top 25, like Franklin or UW-Oshkosh this week, were to have an excellent performance and come close but lose (say 28-27 or something) to one of the top teams would everyone still drop them out of the top 25 (unless they were ranked top 10-15 and would probably stay just in the rankings) or would someone consider keeping them at the same spot or even raising them slightly because of a strong performance against a top team?


I guess it all depends on what the rest of the top 25 does. If most everyone in top 25 wins, I'll have a tough time dropping a team (that won) out of the poll, just so a team (that lost) like UWO can take its place. No matter who they played or how close it was.



So if FC actually leads UW-W and loses like Utah St. lost, I bet UW-W won't be #1. Winning ugly is one thing; winning by a couple of flukes is another.

UWW is playing a ranked team on the road. They will stay #1 if they win by 1 or 50.

So yes, I'll take that bet.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 09, 2011, 09:05:23 am
You may be right - there is a degree of difference there. Ack, shouldn't post with an eye on the Saints / Packers.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 09, 2011, 01:14:41 pm
"I guess it all depends on what the rest of the top 25 does. If most everyone in top 25 wins, I'll have a tough time dropping a team (that won) out of the poll, just so a team (that lost) like UWO can take its place. No matter who they played or how close it was."
02- Don't you feel that the above is one of the many problems of the BCS as well as rankings in general?  As an example, lets say NCC played UWW and Mt Union in the first two games- and lost both games in close contests.  Would you not have them in your top 25 if all the other teams were 2-0? 

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 09, 2011, 01:29:44 pm
"I guess it all depends on what the rest of the top 25 does. If most everyone in top 25 wins, I'll have a tough time dropping a team (that won) out of the poll, just so a team (that lost) like UWO can take its place. No matter who they played or how close it was."
02- Don't you feel that the above is one of the many problems of the BCS as well as rankings in general?  As an example, lets say NCC played UWW and Mt Union in the first two games- and lost both games in close contests.  Would you not have them in your top 25 if all the other teams were 2-0?

BCS blows. Computers shouldn't determine national championship games. DIII (and every other possible sporting event) does it right with a playoff system.

Back to your question. Yea, I think I would have a tough time moving NCC of out the top 25 if they start off losing to the top two ranked teams in the country. Especially when NCC started out ranked 3rd (or 4th).

But I'm not sure what that has to do with my post that you quoted above. I was talking about moving a team like UWO into the top 25 (after a loss), when all other top 25 teams won.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 09, 2011, 02:02:30 pm
02-
I'm practicing the important communication principle of "seek first to understand".
As I understand your position, only teams given a pre-seasonp top 25 ranking should be given ranking privileges if they play a great game and lose against top ranked teams? 
Isn't there room for subjectivity?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 09, 2011, 02:25:35 pm
When looking at an outcome, what would one expect to happen in a match between Top 25 teams in which one team takes its first flight in who knows how long, across 2 time zones, to play a game that is 8 hours later than its usual start time?

I expect Redlands to gain 5-6 points on home field advantage with that information alone.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 09, 2011, 02:33:49 pm
02-
I'm practicing the important communication principle of "seek first to understand".
As I understand your position, only teams given a pre-season top 25 ranking should be given ranking privileges if they play a great game and lose against top ranked teams? 
Isn't there room for subjectivity?

No, I just didn't understand what you were trying to get at....that's all.

No schools receive any "special privileges" for being in the top 25. When I fill out my poll my philosophy is: If a school wins, then more than likely its positioning within the poll will improve from the week before. However, if they lose, then they will fall down the rankings (possibly out of it all together, depending on where they were previously ranked). Kind of simple.

If a team is already outside the top 25 (UWO) and then loses, I can't justify moving them up into the poll. No matter who they lost to, or by how much.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 09, 2011, 04:11:07 pm
"I guess it all depends on what the rest of the top 25 does. If most everyone in top 25 wins, I'll have a tough time dropping a team (that won) out of the poll, just so a team (that lost) like UWO can take its place. No matter who they played or how close it was."
02- Don't you feel that the above is one of the many problems of the BCS as well as rankings in general?  As an example, lets say NCC played UWW and Mt Union in the first two games- and lost both games in close contests.  Would you not have them in your top 25 if all the other teams were 2-0?

BCS blows. Computers shouldn't determine national championship games. DIII (and every other possible sporting event) does it right with a playoff system.


Now wait a minute.

A. Yes, there should be a playoff system in D-1A. One rep from each D-1 conference and then at-larges to make a 16 team tourney.

B. The BCS have neutered the impact of the computers. When it started, they had all of the right elements to create a good ratings system, but they threw out the margin of victory calculations (even though there was a limit on how big of a margin counted, in Sagarin especially there is diminishing returns), revamped the SOS to where it's not that relevant (or accurate), and then didn't throw out games against 1-AA schools so they can feast on the Charleston Southerns of the world instead of playing real, actual opponents.

I feel that good computer rankings are better than trusting the assistant to the traveling secretary to cast the coaches' vote (which may happen in the D-1 coaches poll, never here!) or some cynical ink-stained wretch who never sees anyone outside of his own little geographic area except for when he has a chance to catch a game on TV. But the BCS wanted to 'rig' the system - heck they always want to 'rig' the system and so they're not using real computer rankings.

I know the RPI has flaws, but they use it for many sports in the NCAA and it does a decent job. Same with the PairWise system for hockey. A good computer ranking can help aid the discussion of who should stay or go...TO A PLAYOFF!

And yes, you can keep the bowl games for the other teams outside of the 16.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 09, 2011, 05:00:28 pm
02-
I'm practicing the important communication principle of "seek first to understand".As I understand your position, only teams given a pre-seasonp top 25 ranking should be given ranking privileges if they play a great game and lose against top ranked teams? 
Isn't there room for subjectivity?
+1!   :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 09, 2011, 05:13:28 pm
02-
I'm practicing the important communication principle of "seek first to understand".
As I understand your position, only teams given a pre-season top 25 ranking should be given ranking privileges if they play a great game and lose against top ranked teams? 
Isn't there room for subjectivity?

No, I just didn't understand what you were trying to get at....that's all.

No schools receive any "special privileges" for being in the top 25. When I fill out my poll my philosophy is: If a school wins, then more than likely its positioning within the poll will improve from the week before. However, if they lose, then they will fall down the rankings (possibly out of it all together, depending on where they were previously ranked). Kind of simple.

If a team is already outside the top 25 (UWO) and then loses, I can't justify moving them up into the poll. No matter who they lost to, or by how much.

02, I just don't know that I totally understand it because much of what you say relies on some preseason "top 25" list as if it is a true ranking of the best teams based on fact.  Wouldn't you agree that there are probably several schools that don't make a pre-season top 25 list that more than likely will end up there during the season?  And don't you agree that there are some that make the list that will be gone?  That's the challenge of the preseason poll- there is a huge amount of unknown.  But now we have one game under our belts for most teams.  So take Oshkosh, you'd agree they beat a pretty darn good team in Central wouldn't you?  Central is probably a better team than the majority of teams that were beat by preseason Top 25 teams- right?  Just in terms of strength of schedule alone for week one Oshkosh is a top team- and they won.  Then, if they play the #2 team in the country really tough and lose- you don't feel you have enough evidence that Oshkosh is worthy of moving into the top 25? 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 09, 2011, 06:15:18 pm
"I guess it all depends on what the rest of the top 25 does. If most everyone in top 25 wins, I'll have a tough time dropping a team (that won) out of the poll, just so a team (that lost) like UWO can take its place. No matter who they played or how close it was."
02- Don't you feel that the above is one of the many problems of the BCS as well as rankings in general?  As an example, lets say NCC played UWW and Mt Union in the first two games- and lost both games in close contests.  Would you not have them in your top 25 if all the other teams were 2-0?

BCS blows. Computers shouldn't determine national championship games. DIII (and every other possible sporting event) does it right with a playoff system.


Now wait a minute.

A. Yes, there should be a playoff system in D-1A. One rep from each D-1 conference and then at-larges to make a 16 team tourney.

B. The BCS have neutered the impact of the computers. When it started, they had all of the right elements to create a good ratings system, but they threw out the margin of victory calculations (even though there was a limit on how big of a margin counted, in Sagarin especially there is diminishing returns), revamped the SOS to where it's not that relevant (or accurate), and then didn't throw out games against 1-AA schools so they can feast on the Charleston Southerns of the world instead of playing real, actual opponents.

I feel that good computer rankings are better than trusting the assistant to the traveling secretary to cast the coaches' vote (which may happen in the D-1 coaches poll, never here!) or some cynical ink-stained wretch who never sees anyone outside of his own little geographic area except for when he has a chance to catch a game on TV. But the BCS wanted to 'rig' the system - heck they always want to 'rig' the system and so they're not using real computer rankings.

I know the RPI has flaws, but they use it for many sports in the NCAA and it does a decent job. Same with the PairWise system for hockey. A good computer ranking can help aid the discussion of who should stay or go...TO A PLAYOFF!

And yes, you can keep the bowl games for the other teams outside of the 16.

That's pretty much the solution I'd like to see for the BCS as well... 16 team tourney with 11 conference champs and 5 at large, and with there being 35 bowl games this year, you could take 15 away for a tourney and still leave 20 games for 40 other teams. That would give 56 (out of 120ish schools) rather than 70 playing in the postseason and forcing games like 6-6 New Mexico St vs 6-6 Buffalo which no one will care about.

And as to the comment about computers determining the national championship game... I don't think anyone (computers, people, or a mixture) should determine a championship game... since there's usually more than just 2 teams worthy of competing. Now using computers as a tool or guide can be very beneficial but I don't know if I'd rely solely on them to pick a tournament field either. Computers are only as good as the person who programs the formulas and so will likely always have some flaw possible, but they can try to compare every team with every result with no bias which a human will never be able to do.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 09, 2011, 09:29:24 pm
If top 25 poll votes were awarded due to attention paid, Wisconsin-Oshkosh would be the unanamous #1!!

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 10, 2011, 04:43:20 pm
Looks like we'll see a major shake up after this week.  A number of ranked teams have gone down today - and a few others are in the process of losing.  Top of the heap stays the same as UWW and Mount both win easily.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 10, 2011, 04:44:22 pm
Another top 5 team falls this week.

Wesley loses to Kean, who they beat something like 48-10 last year. It was Kean's first game, so I don't know if this says more about Wesley's weakness or Kean's unexpected strength. Probably a little of both.

Should be another interesting week in the upcoming polls.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 11, 2011, 11:08:36 pm
It took me 15 minutes to decide on 12-25 on my ballot. I think everyone is treading lightly...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 12, 2011, 07:38:12 am
That poll was tough
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 12, 2011, 10:55:52 am

02, I just don't know that I totally understand it because much of what you say relies on some preseason "top 25" list as if it is a true ranking of the best teams based on fact.  Wouldn't you agree that there are probably several schools that don't make a pre-season top 25 list that more than likely will end up there during the season?  And don't you agree that there are some that make the list that will be gone?  That's the challenge of the preseason poll- there is a huge amount of unknown.  But now we have one game under our belts for most teams.  So take Oshkosh, you'd agree they beat a pretty darn good team in Central wouldn't you?  Central is probably a better team than the majority of teams that were beat by preseason Top 25 teams- right?  Just in terms of strength of schedule alone for week one Oshkosh is a top team- and they won.  Then, if they play the #2 team in the country really tough and lose- you don't feel you have enough evidence that Oshkosh is worthy of moving into the top 25?

Yea, I admit the preseason polls is very tough to do, b/c there's a lot of uncertainty. But it isn't a total shot in the dark. There is a degree of research involved in making the polls, and there's reasoning behind where teams are ranked to begin the season.

Yes, of course I agree there will be schools that aren't in the top 25 to begin the year that will end up there during the season. I would agree that Oshkosh beat a good program in Central. Although, according to some research, Central was picked to finish fourth in the IIAC this year, with a record just over .500. So, experts think they possibly won't be as good as previous years. Hence, Central not being ranked to start the season. So, I guess time will tell if they actually are a "pretty darn good team" this year. Is Central better than a majority of the teams beat by a top 25 team? I have no idea, and few do, but yes it's possible. That's another debate.

Unfortunately for Oshkosh, strength of schedule isn't good enough to get you in the top 25....you still have to win the games. Beating an unranked team at home, then losing to a powerhouse doesn't get you in the top 25, in my book. And it looks like I'm not alone.

Since Oshkosh was blown out at Alliance, looks like this is all a mute point. However, I appreciate the debate and respect your point of views. It's been fun.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 12, 2011, 03:35:30 pm
Now 02, you didn't really think Oshkosh's loss would mute me did you?

Preface, I don't have any connection to Oshkosh that causes me to think irrationally (it's my undersized brain that does that).  Oshkosh happens to be the WIAC team that was playing Mt this year.  Because they have played 2 tough teams (yes, Central is a tough team in a tough conference), they are an interesting case study when it comes to discussing ranking teams-IMO. 

I get the feeling that some look at the Oshkosh game as a "blow out" (24 point loss) and, as such, Oshkosh isn't deserving of ranking discussion.  So who does deserve national rankings?  Since it's all about who we think is the best team in the country at the time of the poll (I think), I choose to rank teams based upon the following question:
"How would this team fare against the top 2 teams in the country?"

If my approach above has merit (and maybe I'm missing something here), then there are some hard facts to ignore in the current rankings.

If Oshkosh was blown out Saturday and therefore, undeserving of ranking disucssion, what about:
ONU-they lost by 27 points to MT last year, and ONU finished 8th in the final D3 poll and are preseason 12.
Alfred-they lost to Mt by 30 in the playoffs last year, and they are preseason 16.
Del Valley-they lost to Mt by 28 in the playoffs last year, and they are preseason 25.
Surely Oshkosh has at least equal talent returning this year as teams above (I say that facetiously because they probably have better talent returning). 
If the arguement is that Oshkosh appeared to be a "tougher out", relatively speaking, because it was Mt's first game- then look at the scores of Mt's last 6 "first games".
If the arguement is overall wins and losses, well that just goes back to the question of who have the other teams played to warrant such a ranking?

I know comparative scores are not the best way to determine strength, but what other method can be used at this point to try and determine how one team may do against another?     

This isn't a knock on ONU, the OAC or any team mentioned above.  The point is, what criteria do we use to rank teams?

More and more, I'm tempted to put all WIAC teams in the top 10 to start the season, and just drop them down once other teams prove they can beat them.   
 


 



Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 12, 2011, 07:43:55 pm
More and more, I'm tempted to put all WIAC teams in the top 10 to start the season, and just drop them down once other teams prove they can beat them.

. . . or possibly when they start beating on each other?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 12, 2011, 08:43:01 pm
emma17 -

Me thinks you doth protest too much. This is supposed to be 'fun' for us. Early season rankings are always conjecture. Until a body of work comes into play, it's all about what we 'think' is right and true and just.

I can't put too much into one result, or even two. I still have my conjecture. Like North Central vs. Redlands. I still think North Central is a better team, and I will rank them higher. Because I KNOW of the paradox that I wrote about earlier (A beats B, B beats C, C beats A), and I want to avoid it because I know that ranking on the initial head to head isn't a true gauge especially with the staggered starts.

You shouldn't rank against the top 2 teams, either. That's not a realistic standard. My standard is, "if A and B played 1000 times, who would win more"? If A, they're ahead of B, if B then they're ahead of A. Sometimes it's easy to do. This week, it was tough. I think Wabash would beat Wittenberg about 518 times out of 1,000 (or so...). I don't care about their results against the Purple Horde - the chances of an NCAC team winning there are equally lousy, and statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

And I have Wesley ahead of Kean. Because Wesley's a better team. But I don't have Wesley third anymore, and I have Kean ranked now. And I think Wesley beats Kean 2/3 of the time. Saturday was the other 1/3.

But again, this is FUN!

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 12, 2011, 08:53:16 pm
I choose to rank teams based upon the following question:

"How would this team fare against the top 2 teams in the country?"

If my approach above has merit (and maybe I'm missing something here), then there are some hard facts to ignore in the current rankings.

If Oshkosh was blown out Saturday and therefore, undeserving of ranking disucssion, what about:
ONU-they lost by 27 points to MT last year, and ONU finished 8th in the final D3 poll and are preseason 12.
Alfred-they lost to Mt by 30 in the playoffs last year, and they are preseason 16.
Del Valley-they lost to Mt by 28 in the playoffs last year, and they are preseason 25.
Surely Oshkosh has at least equal talent returning this year as teams above (I say that facetiously because they probably have better talent returning). 
If the arguement is that Oshkosh appeared to be a "tougher out", relatively speaking, because it was Mt's first game- then look at the scores of Mt's last 6 "first games".
If the arguement is overall wins and losses, well that just goes back to the question of who have the other teams played to warrant such a ranking?


 (http://www.parrettinsurance.com/images/frustrated-man.jpg)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 12, 2011, 09:12:58 pm
Warhawk, are you saying I put too much time and effort into the response I posted.

But you know every Mt. Union team is monolithic. They're all the same...they just cleverly change the names in the program. So you CAN compare 2006 to 2011.

Right?

 ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 12, 2011, 09:20:31 pm
Warhawk, are you saying I put too much time and effort into the response I posted.

But you know every Mt. Union team is monolithic. They're all the same...they just cleverly change the names in the program. So you CAN compare 2006 to 2011.

Right?

 ;)

not sure what you mean
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 12, 2011, 09:56:59 pm
It was about comparing last year Mt. Union to this year Mt. Union, and last year Alfred, Del Val and ONU to this year, and I extrapolated it. Trying to be cerebral and funny on a day where my head hurts.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 12, 2011, 10:44:14 pm
Smedindy,
I think you may have meant to respond to me, not to Warhawk?

I am sorry if my posts reduce the fun of the board, it's not my intention at all.  For me, it's a lot of fun to have the discussion.  This is a Fan Poll of top 25 and very few of them actually play each other (at least this soon in the season), so the whole point is conjecture I think.

If asking the question about a team like Oshkosh isn't fun or provacative, I'll stop- it's no fun for me to discuss with myself.

In case others are interested in the discussion, I'll just ask the question.  What is it about the teams ranked 16-25 that makes us believe Oshkosh couldn't beat them?  And in your scenario Smed- what makes us think Oshkosh wouldn't beat them 501 out of 1,000 times? 
 

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 12, 2011, 10:53:20 pm
Oops, looks like emma17 beat me to it, but since I took the time. . .

smedindy,

JMO, I think 02 warhawk posted the picture in regards to e17's comments. From my view, the picture shows a man very frustrated at something - probably placing a great deal of unnecessary stress on himself over something very trivial in the whole scope of things. Quite possibly, 02 warhawk is postulating that the picture mirrors the way e17 spends his time thinking about his Top 25 fan poll. But, since you seem to think it's about you, maybe 02 warhawk killed two birds with one stone!!  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 12, 2011, 11:29:49 pm
BoBo - No, I knew the picture wasn't about me! It was about the inane logic comparing Oshkosh results to last year Mt. Union results. I think it was akin to the FARK meme of "facepalm" with Picard. I was trying to make a funny myself about said thing, and misfired.

Emma - It comes down to a few things:

1. Oshkosh is a mid-level WIAC team and went 4-6 last year. While yes that's better than a mid-level NCAC team, it's still a team that is more suspect than prospect.

2. Oshkosh beat Central. Central looks to be down. They barely squeaked by Augie, who lost to Dubuque this season, who is a mid-level IIAC team. Their win against Central was certainly something that sparked interest, but as more data is accumulated, I can say that while it's not an A beats B beats C beats A scenario, it's a Oshkosh beat B that barely beat C that lost to D, who is in B's conference and mediocre. So Oshkosh's win over B isn't as shiny as it could be.

3. Up 34-10 at the half, I'm not surprised Mt. Union didn't go for the jugular and blow out Oshkosh by 40 or so. ONU is different for Mt. Union - they're probably their closest OAC rival and they want to 'finish' them. Also, in the playoffs Mt. Union doesn't have their entire roster - so they can't sub out as much as they could.

4. Because the WIAC is a conference that beats up on each other, making sense of the entire body of work is different since the teams are kind of bunched together in the middle. But I'll take the NCAC for example.

Oshkosh would have no problems at all with Kenyon, Hiram, Denison, Oberlin.
Oshkosh would beat OWU 9 times out of 10.
Oshkosh would probably handle Allegheny 75 times out of 100.
Oshkosh probably beats Wooster 6 times out of 10. Wooster has had some issues with turnovers, but solve them and they're a damn fine team.
Oshkosh against DePauw (not in the NCAC but close). DPU is rebuilding but has a good tradition. I'd say 55 times out of 100 Oshkosh beats them this year. Last year, despite the 47-0, I'd say DPU has the edge 6 out of 10.
Oshkosh against Wabash and Witt, with what both teams have coming back. About a 1 in 3 chance.

Is that conjecture? Yeah. But the sample sizes are so small, and a two or three plays can turn a one possession game into a rout. If the stars align, Oshkosh runs the table in the NCAC. But I said this year if the stars aligned Wooster could have (COULD HAVE) run the table in the NCAC. The stars were normal, though.





Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 13, 2011, 11:22:45 am
Wonder if UMHB can survive the 2011-Being-Ranked-#3-Curse?

So far the two #3 rank teams (in the Fan's Poll) both lost.

Week 1: #3 NCC lost to Redlands 29-35
Week 2: #3 Wesley lost to Kean 28-31
Week 3: #3 UMHB (?) to McMurry

McMurry is coming off a big win, but the game is at MHB.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 13, 2011, 04:38:21 pm
All right Smed, I know the subject has been beat to death.  You did a nice job of providing some reasoning and I appreciate it.
For the record, the score of the Mt v Oshkosh game was 34-17 as the fourth quarter started- and based upon the play by play info on the stat sheet, Mt had all their starters in until what appears the last 3 minutes of the game. 

Anyone know when the fan poll is coming out?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 13, 2011, 08:15:34 pm
Wonder if UMHB can survive the 2011-Being-Ranked-#3-Curse?

So far the two #3 rank teams (in the Fan's Poll) both lost.

Week 1: #3 NCC lost to Redlands 29-35
Week 2: #3 Wesley lost to Kean 28-31
Week 3: #3 UMHB (?) to McMurry

McMurry is coming off a big win, but the game is at MHB.

Wasn't it 3 years ago where the FBS division had like 8 number 2's in 9 weeks?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 13, 2011, 09:40:25 pm
All right Smed, I know the subject has been beat to death.  You did a nice job of providing some reasoning and I appreciate it.
For the record, the score of the Mt v Oshkosh game was 34-17 as the fourth quarter started- and based upon the play by play info on the stat sheet, Mt had all their starters in until what appears the last 3 minutes of the game. 

Anyone know when the fan poll is coming out?

I am hoping to have the fan poll out tonight, but two people thought so much of certain teams they ranked them twice! Check your email indexes folks!

And for the record. UW-Oshkosh was NOT one of the teams ranked twice.   ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 14, 2011, 12:52:35 am

1.  University of Wisconsin-Whitewater (12)           348     1
2.  Mount Union (2)                                            338    2
3.  St. Thomas                                                  302     4
4. Mary Hardin-Baylor                                          297    5
5. Bethel                                                          290     7
6. Linfield                                                         287     6
7. Wheaton                                                      257     8
8. Hardin-Simmons                                             250    10
9. North Central                                                193    11
10. Ohio Northern                                              185     9
11. Thomas More                                              183     16
12. Cortland State                                             175    14
13. Wesley                                                       165     3
14. Montclair State                                            162    11
15. Wartburg                                                    158     12
16. Redlands                                                     137     20
17. Wittenberg                                                  116     19
18. Alfred                                                         112     21
19. Wabash                                                        90    18
20. Kean                                                            89     unranked
21. Cal Lutheran                                                  73    15
22. Trine                                                            60    23
23. Hampden-Sydney                                            55    unranked
24. Salisbury                                                       49    unranked
25. Delaware Valley                                              36    unranked

Falling Out of Top 25 This Week: Coe, Franklin, St. John's, UW-Stevens Point.

Also receiving votes: UW-Platteville (34), Baldwin-Wallace (27), Elmhurst (14), Illinois Wesleyan (13),    UW-Oshkosh (9), Pacific Lutheran (8), Adrian (6), Franklin (5), Lycoming (5), Rowan (3), Johns Hopkins (2), Louisiana College (2), Trinity (2), UW-LaCrosse (1), Washington University (1).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 14, 2011, 01:00:32 am
I don't know if I'm blind or he forgot them or what, but I know I had UW-SP still in my top 25 so they should at least be in the also receiving votes section
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 14, 2011, 07:27:38 am
I don't know if I'm blind or he forgot them or what, but I know I had UW-SP still in my top 25 so they should at least be in the also receiving votes section

Same with me.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 08:02:10 am


Edited post after after further searching.

FC,
Not finding your ballot. Could u send again?

MJ,
Sorry I didn't include yours. When I went to record them, I started with Sunday and I see you were on top of it and submitted yours late Saturday night. I will re-tabulate.

Sorry for inconvenience. We will see what kind of weight FCGriz and MasterJedi have!!

I guess Yahoo is off the hook.  Maybe it's just UW-SP's sin against the universe on 10/25/08 coming back to haunt them!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 14, 2011, 08:31:18 am
MasterJedi and FCGriz,
I didn't get a ballot from either of you. At least it is not in my inbox. Could you resend? Did you send them to d3fanpoll@yahoo.com? Hmmm both voters who ranked UW-SP and their ballots turn up missing! I know there is an anti-WIAC bias out there, but could Yahoo really be involved?  :D

"This is Jim Rockford. At the tone, leave your name and number and I'll get back to you."
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on September 14, 2011, 08:52:46 am
All right Smed, I know the subject has been beat to death.  You did a nice job of providing some reasoning and I appreciate it.
For the record, the score of the Mt v Oshkosh game was 34-17 as the fourth quarter started- and based upon the play by play info on the stat sheet, Mt had all their starters in until what appears the last 3 minutes of the game. 

Anyone know when the fan poll is coming out?

I am hoping to have the fan poll out tonight, but two people thought so much of certain teams they ranked them twice! Check your email indexes folks!

And for the record. UW-Oshkosh was NOT one of the teams ranked twice.   ;)
Somewhat comforting that I wasn't the only one.  At my age, I'm easily confused!                                                    Wartburg/Wabash......Wabash/Wartburg............. ;) ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 11:42:55 am
OK, no conspiracies. I have no idea quite what I did, but it is all on me. I found both "missing ballots". I have no idea why I didn't originally tabulate them, they are there. It took awhile to find them because I don't have a chart matching email addresses with D3boards screen names. I will work on that this weekend.  I will have the "Correct, I think" Poll out in a few minutes. I will post it right here. Sorry for the confusion!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 14, 2011, 11:59:15 am
No worries. This is all for fun and I bet the AP screws up tabulations too! "The dog ate Pat Forde's ballot!"
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 12:15:07 pm
OK, This should be right. I hope so  :o For the record, in the final tabulations Johns Hopkins actually lost a vote!
D3 Top 25 Fan Poll Week 3

1.  University of Wisconsin-Whitewater (14)          398    1(LW)
2.  Mount Union (2)                                           386    2
3.  St. Thomas                                                 345    4
4. Bethel                                                         335    7
5. Mary Hardin-Baylor                                       333    5
6. Linfield                                                        327     6
7. Wheaton                                                      298     8
8. Hardin-Simmons                                           278      10
9. North Central                                               229    11
10. Ohio Northern                                             219     9
11. Wesley                                                      194      3
12. Cortland State                                            191  14
13. Thomas More                                             188    16
14. Montclair State                                           179    11
15. Wartburg                                                   177     12
16. Redlands                                                   159    20
17. Alfred                                                       135     21
18. Wittenberg                                                 131     19
19. Wabash                                                     114    18
20. Kean                                                          89     unranked
21. Trine                                                          83    23
22. Cal Lutheran                                                74    15
23. Hampden-Sydney                                         64    unranked
24. Salisbury                                                    55    unranked
25. UW-Platteville                                              47    unranked


Falling Out of Top 25 This Week: Coe, Franklin, St. John's, UW-Stevens Point.

Also receiving votes: Delaware Valley (44), Baldwin-Wallace (34), Elmhurst (14), Illinois Wesleyan (15),  UW-Stevens Point (13), UW-Oshkosh (11), Pacific Lutheran (8), Adrian (6), Franklin (6), Lycoming (5), Rowan (3),  Louisiana College (2), Trinity (2), UW-LaCrosse (1), UW-Eau Claire (1), Washington University (1), Johns Hopkins (1),.


Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 14, 2011, 12:16:51 pm
Emma have Oshkosh at 15 this week?

 ;)   ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 12:21:21 pm
I normally let the individual pollsters reveal what they want about the ballots. But I will tell you this, believe it or not Emma did NOT have Oshkosh at 15 this week!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 14, 2011, 12:22:34 pm
Wow...so more than one person has them in the top 25.

Interesting
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 12:25:02 pm
Wow...so more than one person has them in the top 25.

Interesting

Not to mention Franklin.  Who is quickly becoming one of my favorite non-WIAC programs!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 14, 2011, 12:31:57 pm
Wow, those couple of ballots really shook things up more than I expected.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 14, 2011, 12:32:25 pm
My certain to be controversial ballot!:

1.     UW- Whitewater
2.     Mount Union
3.     St. Thomas
4.     Bethel
5.     Linfield
6.     Wheaton
7.     North Central
8.     Hardin Simmons
9.     Wesley
10.   Ohio Northern
11.   Redlands
12.   Mary Hardin Baylor
13.   UW- Platteville
14.   Wabash
15.   Wittenberg
16.   UW- Stevens Point
17.   Alfred
18.   Trine
19.   Baldwin Wallace
20.   Salisbury
21.   Cortland State
22.   Montclair State
23.   Wartburg
24.   UW- Oshkosh
25.   Cal Lutheran
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 14, 2011, 12:40:31 pm
Lots of WIAC love in MaterJedi's poll.

16th for UWSP, and they have yet to score a touchdown.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 14, 2011, 12:41:57 pm
Here's mine....fire away.

1. UWW
2. Mount Union
3. MHB
4. St. Thomas
5. Bethel
6. Linfield
7. Wheaton
8. Harden Simmons
9. Wartburg
10. Thomas More
11. NCC
12. Ohio Northern
13. Cortland St.
14. Montclair St.
15. Redlands
16. Wabash
17. Alfred
18. Wittenburg
19. Cal Lutheran
20. Trine
21. Kean
22. Wesley
23. Delaware Valley
24. Hampden-Sydney
25. UW-Platteville
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 14, 2011, 12:44:32 pm
Lots of WIAC love in MaterJedi's poll.

16th for UWSP, and they have yet to score a touchdown.  ;)

It's more that I feel it's a down year for most and that I have no confidence in the East.  :P
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 02:31:05 pm
Wow, those couple of ballots really shook things up more than I expected.

MasterJedi's ballot certainly helped push UW-P over the top and into the Top 25!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: AUKaz00 on September 14, 2011, 04:23:36 pm
It's more that I feel it's a down year for most and that I have no confidence in the East.  :P

Seems like an interesting time to make the "East is weak" argument as Kean just took down Wesley.  Granted, Wesley is most likely the better team, but no one is arguing that Kean is the pinnacle of the East either.  And I felt like Del Valley and Alfred both gave Mt. Union the same sort of challenge as Bethel did, especially considering they didn't open Piloto up until the 2nd quarter after the Seaman injury which led to the Royals' first score.  The East certainly doesn't have a team competing for a Stagg Bowl currently, but the best of the region is able to be steamrolled just as well as the rest of the playoff field, IMO.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 14, 2011, 05:05:58 pm
Here's how my "missing" ballot changed the votes  :P

UW-Whitewater
Mount Union
Bethel
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Wheaton

St Thomas
Linfield
Ohio Northern
North Central
Wartburg

Trine
Alfred
Montclair St
Wesley
Cortland St

Hardin-Simmons
Hampden-Sydney
Delaware Valley
Redlands
Wabash

Thomas More
Wittenberg
UW-Stevens Point
Illinois Wesleyan
Franklin
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 05:09:02 pm
I think the perception of the East is formed by some in other regions because Mount is moved there fairly often as the number one seed and then proceeds to advance with lopsided scores year after year. I'm not saying it's a fair perception, just that I think that is a big part of what it is based on. I recognize that many years, Mount could potentially do that in most any region. Maybe a bigger indictment is the East's consistent failure to produce a team worthy number one seed. But given that UW-W wasn't even a number one seed, there's no guarantee that's a good basis either.  What might be a better indicator is the record of east teams against teams from other regions over the past few years.  Being short on time right now I can't look it up, but are there some East Region "quality wins" that can be pointed to in order to build a case for the strength of the east? Obviously, one great one is Kean over Wesley on Saturday.  That may win the east a lot of respect nationally. However, in the little community of Whitewater, WI, you'll have to pardon us if we are a little slow to buy in to a case that is formed by beating the Wolverines.  Not big fans here.... ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 14, 2011, 05:13:31 pm
East is weak?

No, I think that the East is very strong this year, and relatively better able to contend with any team outside the region, moving in.

My "East" radar has several strong teams on it...Montclair St, Cortland St, Alfred, Kean, Del Valley and 2 more from the neighborhood, Wesley and Salisbury.  I am counting on the NJAC and E8 to do some weeding.

I think that the non-ASC South is weak, with the exception of the old ACFC pair. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 14, 2011, 08:29:41 pm
East is weak?



Reminded me of the Seinfeld episode.

"You say Ukraine is weak???"
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 14, 2011, 09:04:23 pm
East is weak?



Reminded me of the Seinfeld episode.

"You say Ukraine is weak???"

We could do with a whole lot more Seinfeld references on these boards!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 14, 2011, 10:23:05 pm
I had three things to say about this:

With all the WIAC schools gettin votes I wanted to say the only one besides whitewater j had was plattville at 23

I don't get how IWU got that many votes considering they easily could hve and maybe should have lost to alma, who has yet to prove themseles even close to top25 worthy, this week.

And finally, trine. For all of u who voted for trine, I believe that they will not win the MIAA this year, and will lose to UWRF this weekend. They've given up too many points to bluffton and Manchester, two not very good teams. Adrian is my favorte to win the MIAA right now. But alma or Albion could also be there in a weaker year for the conference
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 14, 2011, 10:52:38 pm
TOP 25!

1.Mount Union
2.UWW
3.St. Thomas
4.UMHB
5.Linfield
6.HSU
7.Bethel
8.Wheaton
9.Wesley
10.Ohio Northern
11.Cal Lutheran
12.Montclair State
13.North Central
14.Kean
15.Wartburg
16.Cortland State
17.Deleware Valley
18.Wittenburg
19.Wabash
20.Trine
21.Redlands
22.Alfred
23.Salisbury
24.Hampden-Sydney
25.UW-Stevens Point
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 14, 2011, 10:53:18 pm
Correction: MY top 25. obviously
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 14, 2011, 11:58:38 pm
TOP 25!

1.Mount Union
2.UWW
3.St. Thomas
4.UMHB
5.Linfield
6.HSU
7.Bethel
8.Wheaton
9.Wesley
10.Ohio Northern
11.Cal Lutheran
12.Montclair State
13.North Central
14.Kean
15.Wartburg
16.Cortland State
17.Deleware Valley
18.Wittenburg
19.Wabash
20.Trine
21.Redlands
22.Alfred
23.Salisbury
24.Hampden-Sydney
25.UW-Stevens Point

I think good arguments can be made for how you placed the teams. Personally, I believe North Central is the best one loss team, but that's why we have the fan poll and this message board.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 15, 2011, 12:07:37 am
This is the last week of 'feeling things out'. After week four we'll know. Or think we do...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: AUKaz00 on September 15, 2011, 09:38:43 am
Being short on time right now I can't look it up, but are there some East Region "quality wins" that can be pointed to in order to build a case for the strength of the east?

Thinking quickly back to last year's playoffs, Del Valley beat Salisbury by two scores and Montclair went down to Hampden-Sydney and came away with a squeaker (then got dusted by Wesley who Del Val and Salisbury both played close in the regular season, so who knows?).  The East isn't close to the two perennials, but neither are 99% (maybe 97%) of teams in the other three regions.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 15, 2011, 10:41:33 am
There are a few 'certainties' in our D-3 world.

1. There will be two purple teams that will be odds-on favorites.
2. A Pool C team will be seeded higher than most Pool A teams.
3. Teams from the south and west will have seedings and pairings disconnect.
4. One of the purple teams will move regions.
5. Some team will get more than 60 points hung on them in the playoffs.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 15, 2011, 11:26:30 am
There are a few 'certainties' in our D-3 world.

1. There will be two purple teams that will be odds-on favorites.
2. A Pool C team will be seeded higher than most Pool A teams.
3. Teams from the south and west will have seedings and pairings disconnect.
4. One of the purple teams will move regions.
5. Some team will get more than 60 points hung on them in the playoffs.
6. At the end of the day, we'll have a legit champion decided on the field!!  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 15, 2011, 02:15:29 pm
There are a few 'certainties' in our D-3 world.

1. There will be two purple teams that will be odds-on favorites.
2. A Pool C team will be seeded higher than most Pool A teams.
3. Teams from the south and west will have seedings and pairings disconnect.
4. One of the purple teams will move regions.
5. Some team will get more than 60 points hung on them in the playoffs.
6. At the end of the day, we'll have a legit champion decided on the field!!  :)
7. The winner of the NESCAC will not win a playoff game.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 15, 2011, 02:27:57 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.
2.  Master Jedi- Except for Stevens Point at 16- I'm really liking your rankings.
3.  Again with MHB- UWL takes them to death's doorstep and their reward is an even higher ranking by many?
4.  Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. Ė George Costanza


My Rankings
1.  Mt. Union
2.  UWW
3.  Bethel
4.  Hardin-Simmons
5.  Wheaton
6.  Redlands
7.  NCC
8.  St. Thomas
9.  Linfield
10.  Wittenberg
11.  Kean
12.  Elmhurst
13.  IL Wesleyan
14.  Wesley
15.  Baldwin-Wallace
16.  Mary Hardin-Baylor
17.  Oshkosh
18.  Platteville
19.  Cal Lutheran
20.  Thomas Moore
21.  Lycoming
22.  Hampden Sydney
23.  Salisbury
24.  Del Valley
25.  Wartburg     
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 15, 2011, 02:36:49 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.
2.  Master Jedi- Except for Stevens Point at 16- I'm really liking your rankings.
3.  Again with MHB- UWL takes them to death's doorstep and their reward is an even higher ranking by many?
4.  Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. Ė George Costanza


My Rankings
1.  Mt. Union
2.  UWW
3.  Bethel
4.  Hardin-Simmons
5.  Wheaton
6.  Redlands
7.  NCC
8.  St. Thomas
9.  Linfield
10.  Wittenberg
11.  Kean
12.  Elmhurst
13.  IL Wesleyan

14.  Wesley
15.  Baldwin-Wallace
16.  Mary Hardin-Baylor
17.  Oshkosh
18.  Platteville
19.  Cal Lutheran
20.  Thomas Moore
21.  Lycoming
22.  Hampden Sydney
23.  Salisbury
24.  Del Valley
25.  Wartburg   

Why?? IMO, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overanked.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 15, 2011, 02:42:23 pm
1.  This board gets along real well boring when I don't post.   

Fixed

You make things interesting and spark debate....I like it.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 15, 2011, 02:43:43 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.
2.  Master Jedi- Except for Stevens Point at 16- I'm really liking your rankings.
3.  Again with MHB- UWL takes them to death's doorstep and their reward is an even higher ranking by many?
4.  Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. Ė George Costanza


My Rankings
1.  Mt. Union
2.  UWW
3.  Bethel
4.  Hardin-Simmons
5.  Wheaton
6.  Redlands
7.  NCC
8.  St. Thomas
9.  Linfield
10.  Wittenberg
11.  Kean
12.  Elmhurst
13.  IL Wesleyan

14.  Wesley
15.  Baldwin-Wallace
16.  Mary Hardin-Baylor
17.  Oshkosh
18.  Platteville
19.  Cal Lutheran
20.  Thomas Moore
21.  Lycoming
22.  Hampden Sydney
23.  Salisbury
24.  Del Valley
25.  Wartburg   

Why?? IMO, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overanked.

MJ, You forgot to highlight Redlands.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 15, 2011, 02:45:25 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.
2.  Master Jedi- Except for Stevens Point at 16- I'm really liking your rankings.
3.  Again with MHB- UWL takes them to death's doorstep and their reward is an even higher ranking by many?
4.  Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. Ė George Costanza


My Rankings
1.  Mt. Union
2.  UWW
3.  Bethel
4.  Hardin-Simmons
5.  Wheaton
6.  Redlands
7.  NCC
8.  St. Thomas
9.  Linfield
10.  Wittenberg
11.  Kean
12.  Elmhurst
13.  IL Wesleyan

14.  Wesley
15.  Baldwin-Wallace
16.  Mary Hardin-Baylor
17.  Oshkosh
18.  Platteville
19.  Cal Lutheran
20.  Thomas Moore
21.  Lycoming
22.  Hampden Sydney
23.  Salisbury
24.  Del Valley
25.  Wartburg   

Why?? IMO, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overranked.

MJ, You forgot to highlight Redlands.

Well I think Redlands is overranked there too, I just don't think they're as bad as the three I bolded. Redlands actually has a chance to end up that high IMO if they play well, they're just unproven. The other three I don't think even have a prayer of sniffing the "recieving votes" category in the end.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 15, 2011, 03:11:18 pm
Well I think Redlands is overranked there too, I just don't think they're as bad as the three I bolded. Redlands actually has a chance to end up that high IMO if they play well, they're just unproven. The other three I don't think even have a prayer of sniffing the "receiving votes" category in the end.

Those three teams are at least undefeated. But then again, at this time of the year, so are a lot of teams.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 15, 2011, 04:02:41 pm
UMHB had not played a game, against a credible team that had.

Their week #1 scrimmage with a team from Mexico was canceled.

UWL had that big advantage.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 15, 2011, 04:28:44 pm
Well I think Redlands is overranked there too, I just don't think they're as bad as the three I bolded. Redlands actually has a chance to end up that high IMO if they play well, they're just unproven. The other three I don't think even have a prayer of sniffing the "receiving votes" category in the end.

Those three teams are at least undefeated. But then again, at this time of the year, so are a lot of teams.

So is Redlands, they beat NCC in Week 1, and had a bye in Week 2....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 15, 2011, 04:50:50 pm
When the body of work is compared, I still say a 9-1 NC is better than an undefeated Redlands. it's just one of those things that happened.

An 8-2 North Central vs. an undefeated Redlands (which means a loss to Wheaton), well, that's going to cause some coin flipping.

A 7-3 North Central (that means Wheaton AND another ICC team beats 'em, not out of the realm of possibilities), then that's another vat of elephant ear dough...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on September 15, 2011, 05:10:53 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.
2.  Master Jedi- Except for Stevens Point at 16- I'm really liking your rankings.
3.  Again with MHB- UWL takes them to death's doorstep and their reward is an even higher ranking by many?
4.  Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. Ė George Costanza


My Rankings
1.  Mt. Union
2.  UWW
3.  Bethel
4.  Hardin-Simmons
5.  Wheaton
6.  Redlands
7.  NCC
8.  St. Thomas
9.  Linfield
10.  Wittenberg
11.  Kean
12.  Elmhurst
13.  IL Wesleyan

14.  Wesley
15.  Baldwin-Wallace
16.  Mary Hardin-Baylor
17.  Oshkosh
18.  Platteville
19.  Cal Lutheran
20.  Thomas Moore
21.  Lycoming
22.  Hampden Sydney
23.  Salisbury
24.  Del Valley
25.  Wartburg   

Why?? IMO, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overanked.
I do not get Elmhurst and Illinois Wesleyan either, 17.  Yes, the Bluejays are 2-0 but those are hardly quality wins and they beat the same two teams last season and then went on to go 3-4 in conference. Same for IWU who went on to have a 4-3 conference record.  Wins against Hope and Alma don't impress me much either.  You have them 12 and 13??? 
   As for Redlands, I had them at 10 which is probably overated but they do have a very quality win against the #3 ranked team at the time.  Are they a better than NCC?  Probably not but that will work its way out over the next few weeks. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on September 15, 2011, 05:20:34 pm
In the interest of fair play, I have to post my rankings if I am going to question anybody else about theirs. 
   UW-EC was a bogus pic, I totally admit but their monkey stomp of the Johnnies just gave me a smile.  Actually, in my effort to bend over backwards to not be biased toward the WIAC, I think I unfairly slight them too much.  I think it is because there is usually just so much parity that I am confused as to who really is the next top team this early in the season.  Going to work on that. 


My September 12th rankings

1.  UW-Whitewater
2.  Mount Union
3.  St,. Thomas
4.  Mary Harding Baylor
5.  Bethel
6.  Linfield
7.  Wheaton
8.  Hardin-Simmons
9.   Thomas Moore
10. Redlands
11.  North Central
12.  Kean
13.  Wesley
14.  Ohio Northern
15.  Montclair State
16.  Cortland State
17.  Wartburg
18.  Cal Lutheran
19.  Alfred
20.  Wabash
21.  Wittenburg
22.  Hampton Sydney
23.  Delaware Valley
24   Salsbury
25.  UW-EC  (Gotta reward them for blowing up the Johnnies in Collegeville!)  LOL
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on September 15, 2011, 05:28:28 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.

  Seriously?  What would the fun in that be?  ;)  Dropping by my tailgate on Saturday? 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 15, 2011, 10:53:45 pm
1.  This board gets along real well when I don't post.
2.  Master Jedi- Except for Stevens Point at 16- I'm really liking your rankings.
3.  Again with MHB- UWL takes them to death's doorstep and their reward is an even higher ranking by many?
4.  Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it. Ė George Costanza


My Rankings
1.  Mt. Union
2.  UWW
3.  Bethel
4.  Hardin-Simmons
5.  Wheaton
6.  Redlands
7.  NCC
8.  St. Thomas
9.  Linfield
10.  Wittenberg
11.  Kean
12.  Elmhurst
13.  IL Wesleyan
14.  Wesley
15.  Baldwin-Wallace
16.  Mary Hardin-Baylor
17.  Oshkosh
18.  Platteville
19.  Cal Lutheran
20.  Thomas Moore
21.  Lycoming
22.  Hampden Sydney
23.  Salisbury
24.  Del Valley
25.  Wartburg   
What's your reasoning behind placing Hardin-Simmons at No.4 in the Nation and UMHB at No.16? UMHB if anything is as good as they were last year, and last year they beat HSU. So would you mind explaining this? I mean i can see UMHB being a little farther than No.3 or whatever, but why would you have them all the way at No.16? thats pretty tough..
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 15, 2011, 11:37:17 pm
   
I, for one, think that anyone who whaps the Johnnies at St. John's deserves a lotta love. It's one thing for NC to GO to Redlands and lose, it's another to GO to Collegeville and dominate....
   
1. UW - Whitewater
2. Mt. Union
3. St. Thomas
4. Wheaton
5. Linfield
6. UMHB
7. North Central
8. Wesley
9. Ohio Northern
10. Bethel
11. Hardin- Simmons
12. Wartburg
13. Montclair State
14. Wabash
15. Wittenberg
16. Redlands
17. Baldwin - Wallace
18. Cortland State
19. Salisbury
20. Alfred
21. Kean
22. UW - Eau Claire
23. Thomas More
24. Delaware Valley
25. Cal Lutheran

Almost pulled the trigger on Platteville. Almost pulled the trigger on Trine.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 15, 2011, 11:41:59 pm
Oh, and to my distinguished posters:

Since I, for one, have a last name that can be (and is) spelled in several permutations (it's a Scottish last name (not that I'm 100% Scottish) and I blame the alcohol on the spelling issues), I must remind you that it's:

Thomas More

After, Sir Thomas More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More

He was kind of a big deal.

Now, Thomas Moore, he was a semi big-deal : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Moore

But nothing to name a college after. However, I bet many D-3 scholars studied him in their Lit classes.





Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 16, 2011, 12:28:00 am
Speaking of misspelling names I for some reason kept using Westley instead of Wesley... maybe I've seen The Princess Bride too much :P
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: footballfan413 on September 16, 2011, 08:39:37 am
   
I, for one, think that anyone who whaps the Johnnies at St. John's deserves a lotta love. It's one thing for NC to GO to Redlands and lose, it's another to GO to Collegeville and dominate....   

My thoughts EXACTLY!  But only time will tell if the Johnnies program has dropped as far as some on the MIAC board fear. But this early in the season and based solely on history and the huge, butt kicking score, that is a quality win for the BluGolds. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 16, 2011, 09:48:50 am
Speaking of misspelling names I for some reason kept using Westley instead of Wesley... maybe I've seen The Princess Bride too much :P

Inconceivable!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 16, 2011, 09:55:26 am
What's your reasoning behind placing Hardin-Simmons at No.4 in the Nation and UMHB at No.16? UMHB if anything is as good as they were last year, and last year they beat HSU. So would you mind explaining this? I mean i can see UMHB being a little farther than No.3 or whatever, but why would you have them all the way at No.16? thats pretty tough..

Below is emma's thoughts on MHB. I don't endorsing this, I'm merely just a messenger.

Cru- I didn't have a chance to look up actual records for this comment, so I could be a bit misguided. My issue w ranking MHB high is how they lose and who they lose to. First, they were in a dogfight against a very average Lacrosse team last year. Second, they dont pass the ball well- it's like they choose to ignore the invention entirely.  Wesley made them look silly when they tried to pass. Third- they dont do well against teams that can truly stop the run. I think they played UWW 3 or 4 times in last few years and really struggled to score (although 2007 semi final game was a good one).
A top 5 (or 10) team in my opinion should be able to put points up against the best competition- and in today's day and age that usually requires more offensive balance.  I dont know how true the old adage of "defense wins championships" is anymore. Defense is a must and it keeps you in the game- but you have to be able to score points to be a top team. IMO.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on September 16, 2011, 10:58:37 am
What's your reasoning behind placing Hardin-Simmons at No.4 in the Nation and UMHB at No.16? UMHB if anything is as good as they were last year, and last year they beat HSU. So would you mind explaining this? I mean i can see UMHB being a little farther than No.3 or whatever, but why would you have them all the way at No.16? thats pretty tough..

Below is emma's thoughts on MHB. I don't endorsing this, I'm merely just a messenger.

Cru- I didn't have a chance to look up actual records for this comment, so I could be a bit misguided. My issue w ranking MHB high is how they lose and who they lose to. First, they were in a dogfight against a very average Lacrosse team last year. Second, they dont pass the ball well- it's like they choose to ignore the invention entirely.  Wesley made them look silly when they tried to pass. Third- they dont do well against teams that can truly stop the run. I think they played UWW 3 or 4 times in last few years and really struggled to score (although 2007 semi final game was a good one).
A top 5 (or 10) team in my opinion should be able to put points up against the best competition- and in today's day and age that usually requires more offensive balance.  I dont know how true the old adage of "defense wins championships" is anymore. Defense is a must and it keeps you in the game- but you have to be able to score points to be a top team. IMO.
Since emma didn't have time to look at stats i thought I would.
I started with 06 since d3football schedules went back that far.
06 VS. Whitewater Loss 7-3: held whitewater to 120yds total offense. UWW only score was the ko return for a td on the opening kickoff
06 VS Wesley Loss (Quarterfinals): 34-20: Wesley passed for 436
07 VS Wesley Win 27-10: UMHB Rushed for 289 Wesley passed for 256
07 VS UWW Loss (Semifinals): 16-7: Defensive struggle...UWW got up early and held on
08 VS Wesley Win (playoffs): 46-14 UMHB rushed for 302
08 VS UWW Loss (Semifinals): 39-13 UWW Dominated the second half
09 VS Linfield Loss (quarterfinals):53-21 UMHB has 7 turnovers & Linfield dominates the second half
10 VS Wesley Loss (quarterfinals): 19-9 Passing game gets UMHB again

Note that while these games are mostly losses, they are losses to the same teams deep in the playoffs. I don't think its hard to see why people vote them into the top 5 year in and out. Every year the story plays out basically the same. UMHB starts slowly and builds momentum through the season then plays into the quarters or semis and loses to 1 of 3 teams. Each of which has consistently played itself into the top 5 of D3. The fact that they haven't beat UWW in 4 or 5 tries says that they're not better than UWW, but guess what, no one else is either. I think its easy to give MUC the nod for #2 because who other than UWW has beat them when it counts in the last 5 years? After that the most consistent teams going deep in the playoffs are Wesley and UMHB.

Now i won't say that the same will happen this season. New offense + Murderer's row in conference early when UMHB's secondary is historically still trying to figure things out could be bad. Saturday should tell the story. McM has a very good passing attack and a stud DB that likes picking off passes. If UMHB comes out slow it could get ugly. Then emma's wish will be fulfilled and UMHB will not be #3 on everyone's ballot. If they come out on top this week and then again next week vs HSU, your probably looking at the same scenario, except this season UMHB will have a passing game.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 16, 2011, 11:11:18 am
Add this one if you include that 06 regular season game:

10/27/07 @ UWW

UWW 41 UMHB 14

As for this week, I see the Cru making significant progress from last weeks narrow victory vs UWL (who was playing their second game).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 16, 2011, 12:13:51 pm
413 I'm 95% in for tomorrow's tailgate and game- lookin forward to seeing you.

I can't believe I wasn't taken to task for putting UWW at #2?  I was all prepared for that defense. 
Rationale for IWU and Elmhurst:  The conference they play in.  More and more I'm heavily crediting the conference.  I don't think either has a good chance at winning the conference, I happen to believe that a 3rd and 4th place CCIW team is definately a top 25 team though.  I think both of them give any team ranked 10-25 a real ball game.  Significant returning talent on both teams.

Lycoming- I fully admit I don't know much about them, but they beat Rowan, which is a team predicted to go 10-0 (not anymore)- with 18 returning starters.

MHB- Very happy to see they emphasized their passing game.  Developing a passing attack takes a LOT of work that occurs over time- it doesn't happen in one year usually.  Thus, the 3 interceptions.  It's not enough to throw for 250+ yards, you have to complete them to your own team.  IMO this is the thorn in their side and the reason they don't win in the deeper rounds of the playoffs.  The main reason they only lost to UWW, Linfield and Wesely in the playoffs is because they didn't have to play NCC, St. Thomas, Wheaton, Mt, Bethel and some others.  There is a good chance MHB moves up in my rankings from #16, but they didn't do anywhere near enough in week 1 to justify it yet. 

Hardin-Simmons- They've earned it with two good wins.  Yes they got beat by MHB last year, but they return a lot and have the intangible of a new head coach.  I'm banking on them learning to stop the MHB running game.
   
Redlands- This pick is primarily due to the timing of the poll.  As discussed much in previous posts, they beat NCC so they get ranked ahead of them for now.

NCC- Because I believe NCC is a top 8 team and likely top 4, my week 3 rankings are a little skewed due to their first game loss. 

Oshkosh- I know- nobody asked.  Quality game one win and despite the misconceptions of a "blow out" or "second teamers" playing for Mt, they gave Mt a better run the last two years than any team Mt has played not named UWW or Wesley. 
       
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 16, 2011, 12:42:24 pm
Are you kidding me emma17? Putting UWW at #2? I'd love to hear your spin on that one!!   ;)  ;)  ;)
(how's that for taking you to task!!)


So what is the reason?

 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 16, 2011, 12:50:28 pm
413 I'm 95% in for tomorrow's tailgate and game- lookin forward to seeing you.

I can't believe I wasn't taken to task for putting UWW at #2?  I was all prepared for that defense. 
Rationale for IWU and Elmhurst:  The conference they play in.  More and more I'm heavily crediting the conference.  I don't think either has a good chance at winning the conference, I happen to believe that a 3rd and 4th place CCIW team is definately a top 25 team though.  I think both of them give any team ranked 10-25 a real ball game.  Significant returning talent on both teams.

Lycoming- I fully admit I don't know much about them, but they beat Rowan, which is a team predicted to go 10-0 (not anymore)- with 18 returning starters.

MHB- Very happy to see they emphasized their passing game.  Developing a passing attack takes a LOT of work that occurs over time- it doesn't happen in one year usually.  Thus, the 3 interceptions.  It's not enough to throw for 250+ yards, you have to complete them to your own team.  IMO this is the thorn in their side and the reason they don't win in the deeper rounds of the playoffs.  The main reason they only lost to UWW, Linfield and Wesely in the playoffs is because they didn't have to play NCC, St. Thomas, Wheaton, Mt, Bethel and some others.  There is a good chance MHB moves up in my rankings from #16, but they didn't do anywhere near enough in week 1 to justify it yet. 

Hardin-Simmons- They've earned it with two good wins.  Yes they got beat by MHB last year, but they return a lot and have the intangible of a new head coach.  I'm banking on them learning to stop the MHB running game.
   
Redlands- This pick is primarily due to the timing of the poll.  As discussed much in previous posts, they beat NCC so they get ranked ahead of them for now.

NCC- Because I believe NCC is a top 8 team and likely top 4, my week 3 rankings are a little skewed due to their first game loss. 

Oshkosh- I know- nobody asked.  Quality game one win and despite the misconceptions of a "blow out" or "second teamers" playing for Mt, they gave Mt a better run the last two years than any team Mt has played not named UWW or Wesley. 
       

Emma, HSU could very well end up beating UMHB this year however it won't be because they learned how to stop our rushing attack it will be because they score more than we do. Since 2006 we have played them 7 times (5 regular season and 2 post season) and have averaged over 300 yards of rushing yards. On top of that Willamette, a team I don't think you even have in the Top 25, ran for 284 yards last week.

In regards to UMHB only losing to UWW, Linfield and Wesley because we didn't play the other teams you listed, you can only beat them teams that the NCAA puts in front of you and consistenly we have made it to the quarter finals or better. And UMHB is proud to be one of very teams that has a winning record against Mt. Union  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 16, 2011, 01:39:19 pm
Several NCAC schools do have winning records against Mt. Union.  Oberlin is 7-7-2 against Mt. Union! (For Oberlin, that's a winner!) And the mighty Denison Big Red is 19-9-1 against the Mount! Ohio Wesleyan is 17-5, Wooster is 38-30-4 and Wittenberg is 18-10.

/old school rivalries




Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: AUKaz00 on September 16, 2011, 02:03:24 pm
Are you kidding me emma17? Putting UWW at #2? I'd love to hear your spin on that one!!   ;)  ;)  ;)

Yeah, they should be 5th just like the NCAA slotted them in last year's playoffs!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 16, 2011, 02:08:45 pm
Cru- You're absolutely right that MHB can only play the teams they are paired with.  However, as I believe has been the case a bit for Mt. of late, some teams have lesser challenges in the early rounds of the playoffs-through no fault of their own.  Perhaps MHB has benefited from some of those early round matchups.
Good point about Willamette in the top- tough to rank them when they are 0-2- but a good point.  I think they are a very good team and most likely capable of beating several in bottom 10 of poll.  They will need to earn their way back.

UWW as #2- it was my preseason ranking- based entirely on the fact that one of the two Stagg teams has 18 returning starters and one has 9 (11 when counting special teams).  UWW's week 1 win didn't do enough to vault them past an idle Mt.  UWW's week 2 game was outstanding (to see what it really looks like when a team decides to play subs and not go for the jugular- see UWW vs Franklin).  Mt did what they had to do and I give them benefit of the doubt as it was their first game.  In truth I see them 1a and 1b now.  As long as UWW finishes 1, being 2 is fine for now.
 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 16, 2011, 02:17:58 pm
  UWW's week 1 win didn't do enough ......... Mt did what they had to do and I give them benefit of the doubt as it was their first game.

So you give the enemy the benefit of the doubt for their first game (at home). But don't give it to your own team who opened up on the road!?!?!  ;)

Just messing you, emma.  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 16, 2011, 02:21:28 pm
Cru- You're absolutely right that MHB can only play the teams they are paired with.  However, as I believe has been the case a bit for Mt. of late, some teams have lesser challenges in the early rounds of the playoffs-through no fault of their own.  Perhaps MHB has benefited from some of those early round matchups.
Good point about Willamette in the top- tough to rank them when they are 0-2- but a good point.  I think they are a very good team and most likely capable of beating several in bottom 10 of poll.  They will need to earn their way back.

UWW as #2- it was my preseason ranking- based entirely on the fact that one of the two Stagg teams has 18 returning starters and one has 9 (11 when counting special teams).  UWW's week 1 win didn't do enough to vault them past an idle Mt.  UWW's week 2 game was outstanding (to see what it really looks like when a team decides to play subs and not go for the jugular- see UWW vs Franklin).  Mt did what they had to do and I give them benefit of the doubt as it was their first game.  In truth I see them 1a and 1b now.  As long as UWW finishes 1, being 2 is fine for now.

Emma just so you know I wasn't trying to say that Willamette should be in the top 25, I mentioned them to show that HSU hasn't learned how to consistenly stop a rushing team, just how to out score them, and that won't change in 2 weeks just like you say we won't become a passing team either.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on September 16, 2011, 04:39:52 pm
Several NCAC schools do have winning records against Mt. Union.  Oberlin is 7-7-2 against Mt. Union! (For Oberlin, that's a winner!) And the mighty Denison Big Red is 19-9-1 against the Mount! Ohio Wesleyan is 17-5, Wooster is 38-30-4 and Wittenberg is 18-10.

/old school rivalries

Yet none of these teams will schedule Mount Union for a Non-Conference game anymore.  Hmm...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 16, 2011, 05:13:19 pm
Well,

1. Mt. Union only has one game each year to schedule, and in 2013 the NCAC goes round-robin as well.
2. Denison, Oberlin and even OWU would be absolutely insane to schedule it.
3. I like the Witt / Capital rivalry.
4. The post was just for 'laughs', you know, a funny thing!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on September 16, 2011, 05:37:10 pm
Cru- You're absolutely right that MHB can only play the teams they are paired with.  However, as I believe has been the case a bit for Mt. of late, some teams have lesser challenges in the early rounds of the playoffs-through no fault of their own.  Perhaps MHB has benefited from some of those early round matchups.
Good point about Willamette in the top- tough to rank them when they are 0-2- but a good point.  I think they are a very good team and most likely capable of beating several in bottom 10 of poll.  They will need to earn their way back.
emma, I don't know anything about you other than what I glean from this board so i ask in all seriousness if you pay any attention to what goes on in D3 football in the south during the playoffs? UMHB doesn't get the benefit of anything most of the time because of the geographic proximity rule. Looking back 10 years, most of UMHB's 1st round games have involved HSU or Trinity. Last year both were down so UMHB played Christopher Newport, and the year before that UMHB went on the road to Central. Since 2001 UMHB has played Trinity 5 times in the first round (2 of which were followed by games with HSU in the second rd because of the Texas sub-bracket) and HSU twice. in 2005 UMHB didn't make the field because of a 3 way tie for the conference championship and ETBU had the tie-breaker. That's 7 of 10 years accounted for where there was no benefit of a weak 1st round team 8 including Central in 09. After round one, whoever plays round 2 has "earned" their spot.

What I gather from reading your posts is that you are a WIAC fan and I can respect that. There are a lot of reasons to be proud of what goes on in Wisconsin. I am and ASC fan, and I believe that the ASC is consistently a strong conference from the middle up with UMHB and HSU sitting at the top of the heap. There are a few schools that will probably never be great, like SRSU which ic way out in west Texas where there is a whole lot of nothing, but the group in the middle of the pack Mississippi College, Louisiana College, McMurry, East Texas Baptist and occasionally Texas Lutheran make noise periodically and I think would give a lot of D3 conference champs a run for their money most years.

I read what you said about the importance of a passing game, but keep in mind that UMHB has been dominating a pass happy conference for a while with a ball control ground game that often rushes for more yards than the other team passes for. Where UMHB has a problem is not usually with teams that can stop the run. It's with teams that score fast from a long way out, which is why I think the next 2 weeks will tell the story of the Cru for the 2011 season. McM and HSU both have potent passing attacks and if the Cru takes a quarter or two to get in the game, it'll be over. Oh and I wouldn't worry too much about the 3 picks Bailey threw. I was at the game. One pick was a hail mary at the half. The first pick was a good throw but a great play by the defender to take the ball away and the third was a tip drill that four people touched before the pick.

You know,if you want to see for yourself, the UMHB MCM game will be available on line @6pm central on Saturday.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 16, 2011, 06:46:59 pm
I pull these quotes from the ASC board in 2008 about the UWW-UMHB semifinal game.

I've watched football games for 50+ years and in that time I have never seen a kickoff go backwards.  I can't even understand how that was possible.  A punt maybe because it's kicked high into the air but a kickoff.  It must have been one hell a wind.  The  ball has to travel at least 10 yards before we have to field it.  Evidently that didn't happen this time so the ball belonged to the WARHAWKS regardless of who recovered it.  What confused me is why the officals had to huddle and discuss it. 

Congrats to UMHB on their successfull season and best wishes for the future.  I'm a big believer in the law of averages but apparently it was irrelevant in this instance.

The second half onside kick went backwards, the wind was so strong.  UMHB was trailing 12-10 at the end of the first half.

Today was the hardest wind I've ever seen at a football game.  UWW did a much better job handling the wind than the Cru.  The TD drive into the wind before the half might have been the turning point of the game.

A commentary on the second half kickoff that was the turning point of the game, if the 80-yd second quarter drive was not.

I, too, was present at the Wind Bowl this afternoon, and I must agree with a couple of the other posters that talked about how Whitewater physically dominated the game.  I believe UMHB got outplayed in all aspects of the game, and that, as sacrireligious as this might be, they also got outcoached.  The kids were confused in the kicking game, and the secondary never did adjust, and a lot of that is coaching.

What I wanted to address, however, is the opening kickoff of the 2nd half.  We all know the rule that says the ball has to travel 10 yards before a member of the kicking team can legally touch the ball.  The Field Judge (FJ) (the guy with the F on his back) was straddling the 40 yd line, also known as the kicking team's restraining liine.  His main job is to make sure the ball travels 10 yards.  Here's where it gets hinky.  Any restraining line is treated as a line, not as a plane, as the goal line is treated.  A kicked ball, by rule, is deemed not to have crossed a line until it touches the ground, a player, or an official on or beyond that line.  In all the confusion, you miay not have noticed, but the FJ had dropped his bean bag on the UMHB 39, signifying that being the spot where the kick first touched the ground.  Of course, we all know that once the ball hit the ground, it looked like a Tiger Woods wedge shot, and shot back toward the UMHB goal line, so the ball, by rule, never crossed the restraining line, hence it never traveled the required 10 yards, hence when the CRU recovered, it constitited illegal touching, giving Whitewater the ball at the spot of the illegal touching.  If the FJ was right, the call was absolutely correct, inasmuch as the home crowd protested.

Some of the confusion occurred up in our part of the stands when some folks started sayint that the ball actually hit the ground at the 42, not the 39.  If that were the case, then the ball crossed the restraining line, and the Cru should have been allowed to keep the ball.  However, without replay, the only way to know will be to look at the game film much after the fact.

I agree with the other poster who said that this game also pointed out the difference in the level of play between us and the Wisconsin/Ohio area.  Obviously, the Cru is the best DIII team in this part of the country, but they've only beaten Mount Union once, and are o-for against Whitewater.  Still, all in all, a great and wonderfully entertaining season for Coach Pete and his student athletes.


Discussion of the 2nd half kickoff (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=3803.9240)

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 16, 2011, 10:05:26 pm
Gents,

Unless something else happens, I think I need to recognize Catholic in my #25 spot. Three double digit deficits in the fourth quarter, three wins. They pulled another one out, beating Carnegie Mellon 29-28 after trailing 28-16 entering the fourth.

Holy schmokes!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 17, 2011, 01:12:43 am
Toby,
You raise good points and I just need to reiterate that I don't have a disrespect for MHB or the ASC.  In a post I entered not long ago on the OAC board, I stated that I felt the ASC is a tougher conference than the OAC.  I don't know the ASC like you, but I know enough that MHB has to be very good to win that conference.  The point I am making is that I don't believe MHB is a top 5 team as most do.  My current ranking is only based on 2 weeks into the schedule and time will tell if they should move up.
When it comes to the playoffs, you've had some really lopsided games, even after the first round.  To me, that doesn't necessarily mean MHB is so dominant as much as it means some of the playoff teams haven't been as strong.  In 2010 MHB put up 59 and 69 points in 2 playoff games-in 2008 MHB put up 63 in the 3rd round and in 2007 MHB put up 52 and 64 points.  In all those years MHB eventually lost to a team that must have been much different than those they previously whalloped.  There must be a reason this happens. 
To me, not having seen the games, it must come down to facing a team that can stop the run and when that happens, MHB doesn't have the passing game needed for balance. 
I don't root against MHB. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Toby Taff on September 17, 2011, 11:40:18 am
emma,
I don't think you root against UMHB. I just wanted to explain why people consistently put them in the top 5. You are correct about the blowouts in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but I tend to think it has to do with relative conference strength. ASC vs PAC is pretty much always a blow out, but what can you do when the conference has the AQ and wins their playoff games.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2011, 02:38:41 pm
emma,
I don't think you root against UMHB. I just wanted to explain why people consistently put them in the top 5. You are correct about the blowouts in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but I tend to think it has to do with relative conference strength. ASC vs PAC is pretty much always a blow out, but what can you do when the conference has the AQ and wins their playoff games.

And the metrics that are used by the national committee do not account for the statistical disparities that arise because of the isolated ASC and the concentration of schools in the "eastern" side of the South Region.  Furthermore, the "geographical proximity" clause in the Handbook mandates that the ASC teams will be sent wherever necessary.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 17, 2011, 02:45:51 pm
Here is the link to a message board that talks about "Bracketgate" games.

Best All-time South Region teams (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5306.0)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 17, 2011, 09:23:03 pm
OK all you MHB fans, I think it may be time to beg for forgiveness. 
I caught some of the MHB game and HSU game video streams.  I can see why you say HSU won't be able to stop your run.  On top of it, HSU didn't look all that impressive on offense.  Maybe it's a bad game type of thing- I don't know.  Meanwhile, in the first half I saw of MHB, they look very good.  Back to the drawing board on the polls.
Nice work MHB
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 17, 2011, 10:09:49 pm
What a bad week for a few Top 25 teams. Kean shows they're for reals. North Central is still a wee bit upset about losing to Redlands. And the big question is what do you do about ONU and Montclair? Reward them for a close win, or penalize them for almost losing to an opponent they should have rolled? (Though in the OAC, the mid-tier teams are hard to 'roll' unless you're Mt. Union.)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 17, 2011, 10:25:48 pm
What a bad week for a few Top 25 teams. Kean shows they're for reals. North Central is still a wee bit upset about losing to Redlands. And the big question is what do you do about ONU and Montclair? Reward them for a close win, or penalize them for almost losing to an opponent they should have rolled? (Though in the OAC, the mid-tier teams are hard to 'roll' unless you're Mt. Union.)

That, and they've played some pretty bad teams to boot! CCIW schedule starts for them now though, they'll have some tests coming up during the rest of the season.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 17, 2011, 11:00:55 pm
What a bad week for a few Top 25 teams. Kean shows they're for reals. North Central is still a wee bit upset about losing to Redlands. And the big question is what do you do about ONU and Montclair? Reward them for a close win, or penalize them for almost losing to an opponent they should have rolled? (Though in the OAC, the mid-tier teams are hard to 'roll' unless you're Mt. Union.)

That, and they've played some pretty bad teams to boot! CCIW schedule starts for them now though, they'll have some tests coming up during the rest of the season.

Yeah, Olivet certainly isn't Wheaton or IWU! But Bethel (TN) won 69-6 today over West Virginia Tech. So they're not wretched.

Add Mary Hardin Baylor to my, "penalize or praise" list. Going to start to contemplate...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on September 17, 2011, 11:08:54 pm
Don't overlook Carthage this year.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 17, 2011, 11:29:19 pm
Can't pull the trigger on Catholic... :(
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 18, 2011, 07:35:49 am
Considering only 2 teams I had in my poll lost (and 3 didn't play) I still ended up moving a bunch of teams. Taking out movement because of the losses, I still have 10 teams changing spots. Of course that's probably better than just leaving everything the same and simply moving people up a spot when someone loses.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 18, 2011, 03:47:52 pm
Mine is in.  Lots of turmoil and uncertainty just below the Top 7-8.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 18, 2011, 04:23:03 pm
HSC85 - It depends. No seriously.

It depends on home / road, conference vs. non-conference, rival vs. non-rival, and past results.

So, I can't say for sure except on a case-by-case basis.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 18, 2011, 10:54:35 pm
It's not political. To me, it's simple. As I stated before, will team X beat team Y a majority of times. It's not about getting respect or not. Flukes happen. But I can't rank on the basis of a fluke. (Not to say Miss. College beating Hardin - Simmons was a total fluke, but I do think Hardin-Simmons will beat them 3 times out of 5 on a neutral field...)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 18, 2011, 11:22:34 pm
It's not political. To me, it's simple. As I stated before, will team X beat team Y a majority of times. It's not about getting respect or not. Flukes happen. But I can't rank on the basis of a fluke. (Not to say Miss. College beating Hardin - Simmons was a total fluke, but I do think Hardin-Simmons will beat them 3 times out of 5 on a neutral field...)

That's not simple...that's simply subjective. Why was it a fluke? Because you say so? Because you think so? Why would Hardin-Simmons win 3 of 5? I'm not going to tell anyone how to fill out their ballot, everyone's got to figure out their philosophy. And the difference in philosophies is part of the fun. But yours is clearly to put more weight upon subjective data than objective data.

Mississippi College was up 45 - 14 with 8 minutes to play. 14 of HS points and 150 yds of offense came in the closing minutes, even seconds of the game. And MC still won by 17 points. I don't see how this is a fluke and I see no evidence that would suggest that Hardin-Simmons should be considered the favorite in a 5, 7 or 10 game series.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 19, 2011, 01:02:36 am
The ASC gets sorted out even more this weekend with UMHB at HSU and Miss College at LaCollege.

The road trip to Mississippi College is always a hard one... 600 miles from Abilene TX to Clinton MS.

Even the officiating crews are vastly different between Texas and Mississippi. ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 19, 2011, 09:14:56 am
It's not political. To me, it's simple. As I stated before, will team X beat team Y a majority of times. It's not about getting respect or not. Flukes happen. But I can't rank on the basis of a fluke. (Not to say Miss. College beating Hardin - Simmons was a total fluke, but I do think Hardin-Simmons will beat them 3 times out of 5 on a neutral field...)

That's not simple...that's simply subjective. Why was it a fluke? Because you say so? Because you think so? Why would Hardin-Simmons win 3 of 5? I'm not going to tell anyone how to fill out their ballot, everyone's got to figure out their philosophy. And the difference in philosophies is part of the fun. But yours is clearly to put more weight upon subjective data than objective data.

Mississippi College was up 45 - 14 with 8 minutes to play. 14 of HS points and 150 yds of offense came in the closing minutes, even seconds of the game. And MC still won by 17 points. I don't see how this is a fluke and I see no evidence that would suggest that Hardin-Simmons should be considered the favorite in a 5, 7 or 10 game series.

I want to see the Massey data after this week, when the teams are more connected. But my analytical, dispassionate side says that the HSC - Miss College game was 'one of those days' for both teams. My fan side roots for the underdog and is quite intrigued by results like this. However, I don't vote with my heart. (I tend to gamble with my heart - that's why I avoid sports books!)

One from this year:

St. John's losing to UW-EC by a gazillion was a fluke. Play that game again and St. John's remains close or wins. One result does not make it a trend. One lambasting does not make a team dominant against the other. It just happened on that day and time.

And one from the NFL.

Tennessee beat Baltimore yesterday. If you saw Baltimore last Sunday against Pittsburgh, you'd think that there would be absolute zero chance the Titans could beat them. Remember, the Titans lost to the moribund Jags on opening week. But beat them they did and made the Ravens look silly.

As a fan, I loved it. But in ranking the teams, I can only think that was a fluke result.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 19, 2011, 10:02:28 am
Because Miss College beat HSU so convincingly Saturday, I put Miss College (previously unranked) ahead of HSU in my new poll. If the game was closer I probably won't have dropped HSU so far down. I moved HSU from #8 down to #20, and slid Miss College into the polls at #19. I felt comfortable doing so b/c Miss College's only loss this year is to a scholarship-offering school.

However, I still have NCC ahead of Redlands, mostly b/c it was a close game in week 1, AND NCC was ranked #3 to begin the season. So, to me, that gap was too big to close (#3 ranked team in NCC and a non ranked team in Redlands) to put Redlands ahead of NCC in the week two's poll. If Redlands destroyed NCC, that that's a different story, then I probably wold have put NCC further down in the poll, and Redlands ahead of them (like what I did to HSU and Miss College).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 19, 2011, 11:12:54 am
Can't pull the trigger on Catholic... :(

Pretty sure they are going to get rolled by Hampden-Sydney if they play like that. They'd give up 45 to H-SC easily.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 19, 2011, 11:15:42 am
Well the voters in the D3 Top 25 poll certainly answered the question I posed.  Hardin Simmons is still ranked ahead of Mississippi College even after the result on Saturday.  I really feel bad for the schools who actually beat a top team and still don't get any respect from some people. 

smedindy,

I guess you were right.  It is case by case and some teams get penalized for a performance that is not up to the expected standards and some teams don't.  It seems very political to me and that is a shame.  At least the championship is not dependent on what a group of pollsters think.

Pretty sure that going from zero votes to No. 23 is "any respect." I can't picture any politics on our panel that would favor one ASC team over another.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: jknezek on September 19, 2011, 11:19:01 am
Can't pull the trigger on Catholic... :(

Pretty sure they are going to get rolled by Hampden-Sydney if they play like that. They'd give up 45 to H-SC easily.

Pretty sure most of the ODAC is going to get rolled by Hampden-Sydney. I had some hope for the Generals after last year's stellar conference campaign, but turnovers and penalties are falling out much different, surprising given the number of seniors on the field. Combined with no longer sneaking up on anyone, and having to play on the road at H-SC, I think this is H-SC's conference to lose. Of course, like last year, the Tigers are going to have to play ALL the games. Votes only win championships when money rules!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 19, 2011, 12:26:26 pm
When I complete the top 25 I do so from the perspective of who I think deserves to be there now, not necessarily where I think the teams will be at season's end.  This idea can be a struggle for me as I have to remind myself to think here and now and not to project where teams will end up- no matter how I try I think my poll becomes a blend.

From this perspective, I can rank a bunch of teams ahead of NCC for now, however, I believe the season will prove that NCC is a top 5 team.  For instance, I don't think for a second that Ohio Northern or Wartburg and some others could beat North Central (and I wonder if the D3 pollsters don't feel the same), however, the teams are rewarded/punished based on current results.       
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 19, 2011, 02:25:24 pm
When I complete the top 25 I do so from the perspective of who I think deserves to be there now, not necessarily where I think the teams will be at season's end.

I think that's a fare statement. I think most people fill out their polls using the same philosophy.

The only time I fill out my poll on where I think each team will finish up is my preseason poll. To me, the perfect preseason poll will mirror the final poll.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 19, 2011, 02:52:21 pm

One from this year:

St. John's losing to UW-EC by a gazillion was a fluke. Play that game again and St. John's remains close or wins. One result does not make it a trend. One lambasting does not make a team dominant against the other. It just happened on that day and time.


Not sure many Johnnie fans would agree with your take. They play again and SJU probably keeps it closer, but I don't think they'd win. UWEC dominated them from start to finish in every aspect of the game. They were faster. They were more physical. They were more disciplined. They executed better. And it all happened in Collegeville.

From what I read on the MIAC board, to a poster, SJU fans admitted they got dominated by a superior team. What makes you think SJU could possibly win that game in a rematch?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 19, 2011, 07:22:55 pm
When I complete the top 25 I do so from the perspective of who I think deserves to be there now, not necessarily where I think the teams will be at season's end.

I think that's a fare statement. I think most people fill out their polls using the same philosophy.
The only time I fill out my poll on where I think each team will finish up is my preseason poll. To me, the perfect preseason poll will mirror the final poll.

I was curious if that was the case.
In this week's poll I did jump ahead to prediciting season's end with one team- I moved NCC to #3.  From the perspective of results through today it's probably unfair to other teams.  But in keeping them lower, such as 11 like D3 has them, I feel it's kind of playing a game.  Their last two victories tell me that whatever happened in week 1 is not indicative of who they are.   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 19, 2011, 07:51:08 pm
When I complete the top 25 I do so from the perspective of who I think deserves to be there now, not necessarily where I think the teams will be at season's end.

I think that's a fare statement. I think most people fill out their polls using the same philosophy.
The only time I fill out my poll on where I think each team will finish up is my preseason poll. To me, the perfect preseason poll will mirror the final poll.

I was curious if that was the case.
In this week's poll I did jump ahead to prediciting season's end with one team- I moved NCC to #3.  From the perspective of results through today it's probably unfair to other teams.  But in keeping them lower, such as 11 like D3 has them, I feel it's kind of playing a game.  Their last two victories tell me that whatever happened in week 1 is not indicative of who they are.   

My top 7 remained the same (NCC at 7) but I can say if they win big against Wheaton and IWU and the rest of the CCIW they'll be back at #3, if they win close games (winning by 3-7 points) then I don't see myself moving them up as long as nobody above them loses.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 19, 2011, 07:58:00 pm
Pat,

I have no complaint about the votes that HSC is getting.  I just watch teams lose to teams that are supposed to be weaker and the penalty is not very strong.  Especially if they were already in the top 25.  If you are in the top 15 it seems to take two losses to get bounced.  My comments had nothing to do with Hampden Sydney.

Neither did mine. Not sure what I said that would make you think I was talking about anyone other than Mississippi College, which went from 0 votes to No. 23 in the country.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 19, 2011, 08:54:03 pm

One from this year:

St. John's losing to UW-EC by a gazillion was a fluke. Play that game again and St. John's remains close or wins. One result does not make it a trend. One lambasting does not make a team dominant against the other. It just happened on that day and time.


Not sure many Johnnie fans would agree with your take. They play again and SJU probably keeps it closer, but I don't think they'd win. UWEC dominated them from start to finish in every aspect of the game. They were faster. They were more physical. They were more disciplined. They executed better. And it all happened in Collegeville.

From what I read on the MIAC board, to a poster, SJU fans admitted they got dominated by a superior team. What makes you think SJU could possibly win that game in a rematch?

The Johnnie fans I know seem to be 'the sky is falling' types at times. Has to be in their Minnesota blood.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 19, 2011, 08:56:04 pm
emma17 - I do the same thing. What I see now is that North Central is a lot better than a lot of teams, and they lost on opening week a long way away from home against a decent team. But I see a team that is NOW a lot better than almost every team in the country, even with that loss.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 19, 2011, 09:00:31 pm
Because Miss College beat HSU so convincingly Saturday, I put Miss College (previously unranked) ahead of HSU in my new poll. If the game was closer I probably won't have dropped HSU so far down. I moved HSU from #8 down to #20, and slid Miss College into the polls at #19. I felt comfortable doing so b/c Miss College's only loss this year is to a scholarship-offering school.

However, I still have NCC ahead of Redlands, mostly b/c it was a close game in week 1, AND NCC was ranked #3 to begin the season. So, to me, that gap was too big to close (#3 ranked team in NCC and a non ranked team in Redlands) to put Redlands ahead of NCC in the week two's poll. If Redlands destroyed NCC, that that's a different story, then I probably wold have put NCC further down in the poll, and Redlands ahead of them (like what I did to HSU and Miss College).

I'm going to wait and see another week on Miss. College and see the Massey data. I have about 4 or 5 'bubbling under'....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 19, 2011, 09:58:14 pm
Pat,

I have no complaint about the votes that HSC is getting.  I just watch teams lose to teams that are supposed to be weaker and the penalty is not very strong.  Especially if they were already in the top 25.  If you are in the top 15 it seems to take two losses to get bounced.  My comments had nothing to do with Hampden Sydney.

Neither did mine. Not sure what I said that would make you think I was talking about anyone other than Mississippi College, which went from 0 votes to No. 23 in the country.

For me I don't jump on the bandwagon for one win. Kean wasn't in my poll last week, but they're top 15 this week after two solid wins in a row.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 19, 2011, 10:03:05 pm
Pat,

I have no complaint about the votes that HSC is getting.  I just watch teams lose to teams that are supposed to be weaker and the penalty is not very strong.  Especially if they were already in the top 25.  If you are in the top 15 it seems to take two losses to get bounced.  My comments had nothing to do with Hampden Sydney.

Neither did mine. Not sure what I said that would make you think I was talking about anyone other than Mississippi College, which went from 0 votes to No. 23 in the country.

For me I don't jump on the bandwagon for one win. Kean wasn't in my poll last week, but they're top 15 this week after two solid wins in a row.

That's how I do it as well, or in my case Top 18.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 19, 2011, 10:21:45 pm
emma17 - I do the same thing. What I see now is that North Central is a lot better than a lot of teams, and they lost on opening week a long way away from home against a decent team. But I see a team that is NOW a lot better than almost every team in the country, even with that loss.

I'm really interested to see NCC vs Wheaton.  I saw the first half of Wheaton vs Pville on straming video (buffering, buffering, buffering) and was surprised at how well P-ville played Wheaton in the first half.  Unfortunately I fell asleep at halftime so I didn't see Wheaton's turn around. 
If you had to select today, who wins- NCC or Wheaton?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 19, 2011, 11:14:17 pm
emma17 - I do the same thing. What I see now is that North Central is a lot better than a lot of teams, and they lost on opening week a long way away from home against a decent team. But I see a team that is NOW a lot better than almost every team in the country, even with that loss.

I'm really interested to see NCC vs Wheaton.  I saw the first half of Wheaton vs Pville on straming video (buffering, buffering, buffering) and was surprised at how well P-ville played Wheaton in the first half.  Unfortunately I fell asleep at halftime so I didn't see Wheaton's turn around. 
If you had to select today, who wins- NCC or Wheaton?

I hope that's not because of the performance of the UW-Platteville's marching band?  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 19, 2011, 11:20:51 pm
emma17 - I do the same thing. What I see now is that North Central is a lot better than a lot of teams, and they lost on opening week a long way away from home against a decent team. But I see a team that is NOW a lot better than almost every team in the country, even with that loss.

I'm really interested to see NCC vs Wheaton.  I saw the first half of Wheaton vs Pville on straming video (buffering, buffering, buffering) and was surprised at how well P-ville played Wheaton in the first half.  Unfortunately I fell asleep at halftime so I didn't see Wheaton's turn around. 
If you had to select today, who wins- NCC or Wheaton?

NCC/Wheaton is one of those rivalry games (Little Brass Bell) of schools roughly 10 miles apart that is essentially impossible to predict.  General scuttlebutt in the CCIW is that NCC is probably a bit better, but I'm not sure a Wheaton win would even be viewed as an upset.

(It will be a battle for second, anyway - my IWU Titans plan to beat them both! 8-) ;))
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 20, 2011, 10:06:14 am
Did I miss this week's poll results somehow?   Haven't seen them and should be interesting to see what everyone thinks (as always).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 20, 2011, 10:09:26 am
Did I miss this week's poll results somehow?   Haven't seen them and should be interesting to see what everyone thinks (as always).

Not yet released yet, bp must be busy. I'm greatly looking forward to the poll as well.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 20, 2011, 10:26:28 am
I think he usually posts them sometime on Tuesdays (today).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 20, 2011, 10:47:25 am

One from this year:

St. John's losing to UW-EC by a gazillion was a fluke. Play that game again and St. John's remains close or wins. One result does not make it a trend. One lambasting does not make a team dominant against the other. It just happened on that day and time.


Not sure many Johnnie fans would agree with your take. They play again and SJU probably keeps it closer, but I don't think they'd win. UWEC dominated them from start to finish in every aspect of the game. They were faster. They were more physical. They were more disciplined. They executed better. And it all happened in Collegeville.

From what I read on the MIAC board, to a poster, SJU fans admitted they got dominated by a superior team. What makes you think SJU could possibly win that game in a rematch?

The Johnnie fans I know seem to be 'the sky is falling' types at times. Has to be in their Minnesota blood.

I don't think it's a MN thing as much as it's SJU rarely losing for the last, oh, 50+ years. And they definitely aren't used to getting handled at home. They just have very little experience in the losing department  and almost none in the blowout (especially during the regular season). But yeah, there was definitely a little chicken little over on our board.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 20, 2011, 06:35:11 pm
emma17 - I do the same thing. What I see now is that North Central is a lot better than a lot of teams, and they lost on opening week a long way away from home against a decent team. But I see a team that is NOW a lot better than almost every team in the country, even with that loss.

I'm really interested to see NCC vs Wheaton.  I saw the first half of Wheaton vs Pville on straming video (buffering, buffering, buffering) and was surprised at how well P-ville played Wheaton in the first half.  Unfortunately I fell asleep at halftime so I didn't see Wheaton's turn around. 
If you had to select today, who wins- NCC or Wheaton?

NCC/Wheaton is one of those rivalry games (Little Brass Bell) of schools roughly 10 miles apart that is essentially impossible to predict.  General scuttlebutt in the CCIW is that NCC is probably a bit better, but I'm not sure a Wheaton win would even be viewed as an upset.

(It will be a battle for second, anyway - my IWU Titans plan to beat them both! 8-) ;))

I'm with you, I've been flogged for having IWU in the top 15 last week (22 this week as I feel the Aurora game was too close).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 20, 2011, 09:11:58 pm
D3 TOP 25 FAN POLL

1.  Wisconsin-Whitewater (14)           398 pts      1
2.  Mount Union (2)                          386 pts      2
3.  St. Thomas                                355 pts      3
4.  Bethel                                       332 pts      4
5.  Mary Hardin-Baylor                     330 pts      5
6.  Wheaton                                    312 pts      7
7.  Linfield                                      311 pts      6
8.  North Central                              285 pts      9
9.  Wesley                                      227 pts      11
10. Ohio Northern                            216 pts      10
11. Wartburg                                   211 pts      15
12. Thomas More                             208 pts      13
13. Kean                                         201 pts      20
14. Redlands                                   169 pts      16
15. Montclair St.                              161 pts      14
16. Alfred                                       142 pts      17
17. Wabash                                     141 pts      19
18. Wittenberg                                 136 pts      18
19. Trine                                         102 pts      21
20. Hardin-Simmons                           95 pts       8
21. Cal Lutheran                                89 pts       22
22. Hampden-Sydney                         82 pts       23
23. Cortland State                             56 pts       12
24. Baldwin-Wallace                          48 pts       unranked
25. Salisbury                                    47 pts       24

Falling out of Top 25 UW-Platteville

Also receiving votes: Delaware Valley 45, UW-Platteville 33, Mississippi College 26, UW-Stevens Point 11, UW-Oshkosh 10,  UW-Eau Claire 7, Adrian 6, Illinois Wesleyan 6, Louisiana College 5, Franklin 4, St. John Fisher 3, Johns Hopkins 2, Trinity 2,

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 20, 2011, 10:39:22 pm
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 20, 2011, 10:52:46 pm
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....

sflzman- Did you see the Trine v UWRF game by any chance?  The stats sure don't resemble the score in that one.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 20, 2011, 11:27:10 pm
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....

I was very surprised when I researched Trine before the UW-RF game and found the Thunder averaged less than 3 yards per carry against Manchester and Bluffton after averaging 7.0 yards against them last year. And both of those years, we are talking about a reasonable sample size of 80-100 carries, too.  I agree that Trine is suspect at best.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 21, 2011, 03:32:56 am
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....
Until Trine loses, I have them up there... I may have them a bit high at 11, but I can't put anyone that I have ranked just below them ahead.
I don't think anyone will beat them in conference, Alma hasn't shown me any reason that they'd win (although a solid win this week at W&L might change my mind) and while Adrian may have a small chance, they have to do it on the road against a Trine team who will have an extra week to prepare. The other teams may be closing the gap between Trine and the rest of the conference but I don't think they've gotten there quite yet.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 21, 2011, 09:11:30 am
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sju56321 on September 21, 2011, 11:31:52 am
I can tell you I don't have Ohio Northern at #10. But it is interesting trying to rank these teams.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 21, 2011, 01:04:53 pm
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!

I dropped Ohio Northern for this very reason. Still ranked, but I wasn't impressed with the showing.

I can tell you I don't have Ohio Northern at #10. But it is interesting trying to rank these teams.

exactly. Some teams I've got ranked higher than I thought I would, simply because I can't for the life of me think of a team I'd rank above them. This is a tough time of year for the poll as so many great matchups and real measuring sticks haven't happened for a lot of the ranked teams.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 21, 2011, 01:08:50 pm
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!


I guess when you're the last ranked team, and you lose....odds are you are going to fall out. Besides, I think Miss College is more deserving of getting into the top 25 after smoking Harden Simmons. so I kicked out UWP and put in Miss College.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 21, 2011, 02:57:02 pm
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....

sflzman- Did you see the Trine v UWRF game by any chance?  The stats sure don't resemble the score in that one.


No I did not see that one, and I haven't even seem much film of them yet....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 21, 2011, 07:27:58 pm
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....

sflzman- Did you see the Trine v UWRF game by any chance?  The stats sure don't resemble the score in that one.


No I did not see that one, and I haven't even seem much film of them yet....

Hmm, film huh?  That sounds fun- Love breaking down game film.  If you get the UWRF-Trine film can you fill us in a bit?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 21, 2011, 07:39:10 pm
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!


I guess when you're the last ranked team, and you lose....odds are you are going to fall out. Besides, I think Miss College is more deserving of getting into the top 25 after smoking Harden Simmons. so I kicked out UWP and put in Miss College.

I can't argue with the Miss College logic.  It's just an old issue though that I realize comes down to a personal decision. 

This isn't a question specific to you 02 (but I always appreciate your replies), I'm just tossing it out there.  I can see the following scenario:  UWP lost to Wheaton and maybe loses to UWW and one other WIAC team.  Assuming that other WIAC team is proving to be very tough (you know, like Oshkosh beating everybody but UWW)- you now have a 3 loss team- that lost ONLY to teams it should lose to if it is ranked in 20-25.  If the Alfreds, Trines, Hampden Sydneys, Wabashs and the like remain unbeaten, is there no room for a UWP?  Or, do we rank UWP not on record, but on asking the question- who would win if they played each other? 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 21, 2011, 08:08:15 pm
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!
For me, the third loss and a 7-3 record, a WIAC slip-up drops UW-P into the second 25.


I guess when you're the last ranked team, and you lose....odds are you are going to fall out. Besides, I think Miss College is more deserving of getting into the top 25 after smoking Harden Simmons. so I kicked out UWP and put in Miss College.

I can't argue with the Miss College logic.  It's just an old issue though that I realize comes down to a personal decision. 

This isn't a question specific to you 02 (but I always appreciate your replies), I'm just tossing it out there.  I can see the following scenario:  UWP lost to Wheaton and maybe loses to UWW and one other WIAC team.  Assuming that other WIAC team is proving to be very tough (you know, like Oshkosh beating everybody but UWW)- you now have a 3 loss team- that lost ONLY to teams it should lose to if it is ranked in 20-25.  If the Alfreds, Trines, Hampden Sydneys, Wabashs and the like remain unbeaten, is there no room for a UWP?  Or, do we rank UWP not on record, but on asking the question- who would win if they played each other?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 21, 2011, 08:08:46 pm
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!
I guess when you're the last ranked team, and you lose....odds are you are going to fall out. Besides, I think Miss College is more deserving of getting into the top 25 after smoking Harden Simmons. so I kicked out UWP and put in Miss College.

I can't argue with the Miss College logic.  It's just an old issue though that I realize comes down to a personal decision. 

This isn't a question specific to you 02 (but I always appreciate your replies), I'm just tossing it out there.  I can see the following scenario:  UWP lost to Wheaton and maybe loses to UWW and one other WIAC team.  Assuming that other WIAC team is proving to be very tough (you know, like Oshkosh beating everybody but UWW)- you now have a 3 loss team- that lost ONLY to teams it should lose to if it is ranked in 20-25.  If the Alfreds, Trines, Hampden Sydneys, Wabashs and the like remain unbeaten, is there no room for a UWP?  Or, do we rank UWP not on record, but on asking the question- who would win if they played each other?
For me, the third loss, a WIAC slip-up, and a 7-3 record, drops UW-P into the second 25.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 21, 2011, 10:24:22 pm
The ranking conundrum continues in my eyes. Platteville drops out after losing a tight game to a #6- isn't that what should happen when a bottom 25 plays a top 10- lose in tight game?  I can't understand why they would drop out.  Ohio Northern survives a 2-point conversion attempt to an unranked team and still holds on in voter's minds as the 10th best team in the entire country.
Mercy!

Us who have seen the OAC semi-close and personal know that the non-Mt. Union teams tend to claw at each other. I dropped Montclair big time because of their performance, but knowing how rough the OAC is from teams 2 through 7 I couldn't drop ONU that much.

I have ONU as the bottom of my "11" that I've always had as my first tier:

1. UW - Whitewater
2. Mt. Union
3. St. Thomas
4. Wheaton
5. Linfield
6. North Central
7. UMHB
8. Wesley
9. Bethel
10. Wartburg
11. Ohio Northern
12. Wabash
13. Wittenberg
14. Redlands
15. Baldwin - Wallace
16. Kean
17. Alfred
18. Montclair State
19. Salisbury
20. Cortland State
21. Thomas More
22. UW - Eau Claire
23. Cal Lutheran
24. Delaware Valley
25. Trine

This is also why I'm going to start using Massey to do comparisons and power rankings and schedule rankings. Gather and glean good data.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 22, 2011, 07:42:52 am
I'm telling you guys/girls. Trine is not the best MIAA team. Adrian or Alma will win the AQ this year....

sflzman- Did you see the Trine v UWRF game by any chance?  The stats sure don't resemble the score in that one.


No I did not see that one, and I haven't even seem much film of them yet....

Hmm, film huh?  That sounds fun- Love breaking down game film.  If you get the UWRF-Trine film can you fill us in a bit?

No problem. The key will be when I finally get to see a Trine film, but I'll definately give a breakdown on it...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 22, 2011, 10:27:26 am
Just wondering, who are the pollsters for the fan top 25 poll & are they equally distributed among the regions? How does one become a pollster? Is the weekly deadline for each pollster to submit their top 25 before or after the d3football.com top 25 is published? Could someone in the know kindly respond? TY
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 22, 2011, 11:51:38 am
Just wondering, who are the pollsters for the fan top 25 poll & are they equally distributed among the regions? How does one become a pollster? Is the weekly deadline for each pollster to submit their top 25 before or after the d3football.com top 25 is published? Could someone in the know kindly respond? TY

All you have to do to be a pollster is to let me know at d3fanpoll@yahoo.com.  I posted an announcement in every region and every conference a week or two before the season started. I took everyone who indicated interest. A couple guys have also been added since the season started. Obviously, it would be great to have you! The deadline we have set up is midnight.  I never really clarified as to whether that is Eastern, Central, Mountain, or Pacific time.  But I know it's not KST!  :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 22, 2011, 01:07:57 pm
Just wondering, who are the pollsters for the fan top 25 poll & are they equally distributed among the regions?
I'd be interested in finding that out too... maybe us pollsters could include in our next ballot what region and maybe what conference we're from and then at the bottom of the latest poll bleed could either tally up region and conference representation or list everyone and their affiliations and someone will invariably tally it up
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 22, 2011, 01:19:19 pm
Just wondering, who are the pollsters for the fan top 25 poll & are they equally distributed among the regions?
I'd be interested in finding that out too... maybe us pollsters could include in our next ballot what region and maybe what conference we're from and then at the bottom of the latest poll bleed could either tally up region and conference representation or list everyone and their affiliations and someone will invariably tally it up

Judging by your screen name, FCGrizzliesGrad, bleedpurple can probably crack the code on what region/conference you represent  ;)

That probably goes for most of us though, including myself. But I like that idea though.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 22, 2011, 01:33:26 pm
Whoa- hold on. All you have to do to be a pollster is to let me know at d3fanpoll@yahoo.com

That's not what you told me Bleed >:(
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 22, 2011, 02:15:16 pm
Whoa- hold on. All you have to do to be a pollster is to let me know at d3fanpoll@yahoo.com

That's not what you told me Bleed >:(

Are you still upset about the D3 Fanpoll Wonderlic test I made you take, Emma?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 22, 2011, 02:28:47 pm
Just wondering, who are the pollsters for the fan top 25 poll & are they equally distributed among the regions?
I'd be interested in finding that out too... maybe us pollsters could include in our next ballot what region and maybe what conference we're from and then at the bottom of the latest poll bleed could either tally up region and conference representation or list everyone and their affiliations and someone will invariably tally it up

I would be glad to tally if pollsters include the conference/region you follow most closely on your ballots.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on September 22, 2011, 06:17:11 pm
West/MIAC/Bethel for me.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 22, 2011, 06:47:39 pm
Whoa- hold on. All you have to do to be a pollster is to let me know at d3fanpoll@yahoo.com

That's not what you told me Bleed >:(

Are you still upset about the D3 Fanpoll Wonderlic test I made you take, Emma?

Should have been open book- here, you try it:
http://www.sporcle.com/games/gloucester/wonderlic-sample-test (http://www.sporcle.com/games/gloucester/wonderlic-sample-test)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 23, 2011, 02:30:04 pm
Looks like MHB and HS are the only top 25 teams playing each other this week. Unless there's some upsets, I doubt the rankings will change a whole lot.

HS can make things interesting if they knock off MHB. Which is very possibly with the game being at Abilene.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 23, 2011, 03:46:47 pm
Looks like MHB and HS are the only top 25 teams playing each other this week. Unless there's some upsets, I doubt the rankings will change a whole lot.

HS can make things interesting if they knock off MHB. Which is very possibly with the game being at Abilene.

Playing in Abilene hasn't been much of an advantage, especially recently:

2009:  L, 7-23
2007:  L, 14-47
2005:  L, 7-38
2003:  L, 36-43
2001:  W, 30-27
1999:  W, 28-21 (UMHB's second year playing football)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 23, 2011, 04:23:52 pm

1999:  W, 28-21 (UMHB's second year playing football)

wait......UMHB has only had a football program since 1998?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 23, 2011, 06:26:40 pm
Yep.  Pretty freaking incredible what Coach Fred did in such a short period of time.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 23, 2011, 07:07:29 pm
Yep.  Pretty freaking incredible what Coach Fred did in such a short period of time.

It is truly one of the most remarkable stories in D3 Football.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 23, 2011, 07:21:14 pm
Yep.  Pretty freaking incredible what Coach Fred did in such a short period of time.

That's what I was going to say. Looks like they had just two years of growing pains....then BAM!!!! A national power. amazing.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 23, 2011, 07:26:27 pm
Just wondering, who are the pollsters for the fan top 25 poll & are they equally distributed among the regions? How does one become a pollster? Is the weekly deadline for each pollster to submit their top 25 before or after the d3football.com top 25 is published? Could someone in the know kindly respond? TY

All you have to do to be a pollster is to let me know at d3fanpoll@yahoo.com.  I posted an announcement in every region and every conference a week or two before the season started. I took everyone who indicated interest. A couple guys have also been added since the season started. Obviously, it would be great to have you! The deadline we have set up is midnight.  I never really clarified as to whether that is Eastern, Central, Mountain, or Pacific time.  But I know it's not KST!  :D

I think I'll take a rain check this time. I'll consider it next year.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 23, 2011, 08:56:15 pm
Yep.  Pretty freaking incredible what Coach Fred did in such a short period of time.

It is truly one of the most remarkable stories in D3 Football.
We Texans weren't too surprised.  We kinda expected it with Texas high school football talent. ;)

Besides, the Conference has been ranked as 3rd to 6th toughest in the country over the last 5 years.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 23, 2011, 09:54:45 pm
And yet there's still a good mine for talent for top-tier Liberal Arts colleges (no offense to MHB's academics). Wabash has a couple of Texas kids on their roster and I know that the good folks in admissions makes Texas a top target (in general, not just for sports).

I think some schools in Florida, if they decided to take a look at things realistically, would probably thrive in D-3 just like UMHB did. Ave Maria, where I recently caught Birmingham Southern at (and whose fans love the fact their in D-3, at least the fans I saw at the game), would be perfect for D-3, but there's no D-3 school around and everyone is wanting to emulate schools like FIU, FAU, UCF and USF to D-1 glory. Yeesh. Ave Maria's conference is kind of an island of misfit toys...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 24, 2011, 11:40:15 pm
September 24th D3 Top 25 Fan Poll Notes and Quips


D3 TOP 25 FAN POLL
1.  Wisconsin-Whitewater-  Bye week and preparing for WIAC opener against UW-Platteville next week.           
2.  Mount Union- And UW-W thought they had it easy this week.
3.  St. Thomas- Gained over 500 yards in running away from Cobbers.                             
4.  Bethel- Bye week                                   
5.  Mary Hardin-Baylor-  21 point 3rd quarter propels Crusaders.                   
6.  Wheaton- Easy win against winless Comets.
7.  Linfield- Cats dominate from the get go.
8.  North Central- Week off after scoring 156 points over last two weeks.
9.  Wesley- Woverines were in no mood to play after Kean upset.
10. Ohio Northern- No they didn't!  By 20??  Northern headed deep south in poll.
11. Wartburg- Knights slip as they step up in class.
12. Thomas More-Saints Top W&J in a good one.
13. Kean- yielded 33 to team held without a TD 5 times last year and shut out by SUNY-Maritime this year.
14. Redlands-Bye week before Cal Lutheran showdown next week.
15. Montclair St- Red Hawks crank up the offense.
16. Alfred- Saxons shut down vaunted rushing attack in 2nd half to secure the win.
17. Wabash-TD's from punt block, punt return, and interception return pay off big.
18. Wittenberg- Tigers pull away from upper tier NCAC foe.
19. Trine- Bye week before important conference clash with Adrian next week.
20. Hardin-Simmons- Defense couldn't contain Crusaders.
21. Cal Lutheran- Bye before huge Redlands game next week.
22. Hampden-Sydney-Tigers fail first major test
23. Cortland State-Red Dragons outgain Profs by 128 yards in 3 point win.
24. Baldwin-Wallace- Another OAC team falls.
25. Salisbury- Bye week
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 25, 2011, 12:16:22 am
Random thoughts:
I'm hoping the pollsters can finally get over their love affair with ONU and rank teams based on merit.

Does the OAC still deserve the 2nd ranking for conference? If so, why?

MHB has proven that HS still isn't ready to challenge for that conference.  I guess we will find out about Louisiana College next week as they play MHB.  Is the ASC now worthy of consideration for toughest conference in D3?

Is Wittenberg proving to be much better than expected? 

What to do about Dubuque? 

North Park?  Maybe not top 25, but hats off to their start.     
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 25, 2011, 12:37:41 am
Yep.  Pretty freaking incredible what Coach Fred did in such a short period of time.

It is truly one of the most remarkable stories in D3 Football.
We Texans weren't too surprised.  We kinda expected it with Texas high school football talent. ;)

Besides, the Conference has been ranked as 3rd to 6th toughest in the country over the last 5 years.

(Sorry for the late response.)

Ralph, that is totally ingenuous.  Rising quickly above many schools, perhaps - but swiftly blowing away fellow Texas schools (including your beloved McMurry)?  How does 'Texas talent' explain that?  Their rise to prominence so quickly is a helluva story - or a scandal yet to be discovered! :P ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 25, 2011, 01:21:21 am
Yep.  Pretty freaking incredible what Coach Fred did in such a short period of time.

It is truly one of the most remarkable stories in D3 Football.
We Texans weren't too surprised.  We kinda expected it with Texas high school football talent. ;)

Besides, the Conference has been ranked as 3rd to 6th toughest in the country over the last 5 years.

(Sorry for the late response.)

Ralph, that is totally ingenuous.  Rising quickly above many schools, perhaps - but swiftly blowing away fellow Texas schools (including your beloved McMurry)?  How does 'Texas talent' explain that?  Their rise to prominence so quickly is a helluva story - or a scandal yet to be discovered! :P ;)
Thanks for the comment, Mr Ypsi.

UMHB did it right. I was "warned" about UMHB in 2000 by the husband of a childhood friend/schoolmate.

As for McMurry, our rapid demise was the result of losing one co-ordinator to Louisiana College, who began their program and took some talent with him, the same time that we lost the other co-ordinator and lead assistant coach to an ugly, agonizing (100-lb wt loss before death) bout of cancer.  That took the heart out of the program, and cast us into the wilderness for the rest of the decade.

There is so much talent in Texas that has received fundamentally stellar coaching since junior high.  Plenty of quality players bypass sitting on the bench of a .500 D2 state university team with a meager athletic scholarship in favor of a winner like UMHB and a competitive D3-compliant financial aid package. After the discount rates at ASC private schools, total costs after the D3 approved financial aid packages can approach the cost of room, board, tuition books fees and spending money at the D2 State schools after a partial D2 scholarship for one of the role players or one of the freshmen JV'ers.

The ASC and the late 1990's Trinity were already at the top of D3. HSU hit the ground running.

Coach Fred already had the recruiting connections to build a program quickly.  UMHB is located within 4 hours of about 18 million citizens, including all of Metro Houston, San Antonio, Austin, DFW and Abilene and the little towns in football strong east Texas, (think Minnesota Viking Adrian Peterson).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 25, 2011, 01:39:17 am
emma17:

A. The OAC HAS merit. They have one non-conference game, then the rest of the time they knock into each other. Now ONU won't get the standing they had, but the OAC as a whole went 7-3 in non-conference with the three losses to good to great opponents (Mt. St. Joseph, Case, Wittenberg). Plus, their history as having two playoff teams that run deep into the playoffs is solid. I tell you what, take a mid-level OAC team into ANY conference, and they'd wreak serious havoc. (And I say this as an NCAC dude...) Capital, Baldwin-Wallace, John Carroll, Otterbein and ONU have all had excellent teams recently. It may be Muskingum's turn!

B. North Park hasn't won a CCIW game since 2000. In 2005, they went 3-0 and then lost each CCIW game by a margin of 224-59. Let's hold off on the Vikings coronation for a smidge, OK?

C. Wittenberg? How about some love for the Little Giants? BTW, Witt barely beat Wash U. which lost to North Park. Witt at home is a lot different than Witt on the road.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 25, 2011, 08:46:28 am
As for McMurry, our rapid demise was the result of losing one co-ordinator to Louisiana College, who began their program and took some talent with him, the same time that we lost the other co-ordinator and lead assistant coach to an ugly, agonizing (100-lb wt loss before death) bout of cancer.  That took the heart out of the program, and cast us into the wilderness for the rest of the decade.

There is so much talent in Texas that has received fundamentally stellar coaching since junior high. 

Stunning how the loss of a couple assistant coaches, in such a talent rich state (both players and coaches) could lead to such a thing happening like you described. You'd think an area with stellar coaching in the school-age levels could/would produce a coach or two that could lead McMurry out of the doldrums more swiftly...puzzling.
 :-\ 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 25, 2011, 09:07:24 am
As for McMurry, our rapid demise was the result of losing one co-ordinator to Louisiana College, who began their program and took some talent with him, the same time that we lost the other co-ordinator and lead assistant coach to an ugly, agonizing (100-lb wt loss before death) bout of cancer.  That took the heart out of the program, and cast us into the wilderness for the rest of the decade.

There is so much talent in Texas that has received fundamentally stellar coaching since junior high. 

Stunning how the loss of a couple assistant coaches, in such a talent rich state (both players and coaches) could lead to such a thing happening like you described. You'd think an area with stellar coaching in the school-age levels could/would produce a coach or two that could lead McMurry out of the doldrums more swiftly...puzzling.
 :-\
Thanks for the comment, BoBo.

That head coach was Coach Steve Keenum, father of U Houston QB Case Keenum,  The school gave him a couple of years, but the tragic loss of his really close friend and associate was devastating for him. 

I was not as closely tied to the campus during that time for me to know all of the details, but it seems that the loss was something that he could not work out of.

The school lost momentum at a time when UMHB, Louisiana College, ETBU* and TLU were building new or reinstated programs.  McM fell back into the pack or behind it.  When you play 8-9 conference games, and there are no other schools around you to play meaningful non-conference games e.g., North Park in the CCIW, there is not much opportunity to "stay out of the whirlpool".  You can be sucked under water very quickly.

(*ETBU was Conference tri-Champs in 2003, and then a first round OT winner over defending Stagg finalist Trinity and second round loser on the road at Lycoming in OT.)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 25, 2011, 09:12:24 am
My ballot is in!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 25, 2011, 11:48:25 am
I am in. There wasn't as much movement as I thought. I did drop ONU, but I didn't drop B-W that much because I respect the OAC and Capital is a tough hombre. Their opening loss to Witt is looking better and they're on my honorable mention list, and I didn't drop Wartburg that much because I respect the rivalry aspect of the game against Coe.

And I'd like to welcome Louisiana College to my top 25.

My honorable mention list is growing.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 25, 2011, 11:55:39 am
I keep 10-12 teams in my "keep an eye on" group just out of my top 25... and 7 of them lost yesterday. Should be interesting to see who all gets votes this week
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 25, 2011, 11:51:55 pm
emma17:

A. The OAC HAS merit. They have one non-conference game, then the rest of the time they knock into each other. Now ONU won't get the standing they had, but the OAC as a whole went 7-3 in non-conference with the three losses to good to great opponents (Mt. St. Joseph, Case, Wittenberg). Plus, their history as having two playoff teams that run deep into the playoffs is solid. I tell you what, take a mid-level OAC team into ANY conference, and they'd wreak serious havoc. (And I say this as an NCAC dude...) Capital, Baldwin-Wallace, John Carroll, Otterbein and ONU have all had excellent teams recently. It may be Muskingum's turn!

B. North Park hasn't won a CCIW game since 2000. In 2005, they went 3-0 and then lost each CCIW game by a margin of 224-59. Let's hold off on the Vikings coronation for a smidge, OK?

C. Wittenberg? How about some love for the Little Giants? BTW, Witt barely beat Wash U. which lost to North Park. Witt at home is a lot different than Witt on the road.

Smed, since you made the comment, I'll ask you.  What #2 team in the OAC has made a deep run in the playoffs lately?  I'll take several conferences overall over the OAC.     

Your North Park comment is silly, I think I made myself clear in the original post- I'm simply giving them some credit for playing well for 3 games.
I like Wabash too. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 26, 2011, 12:27:42 am
Really, the OAC is the dregs, eh?

The reason we're having this tussle is that the 2010 ONU team went to the round of 16.

The 2005 and 2006 Capital team made the quarters.

Many times, because of OAC shenanigans the runner up has 2 losses, thanks to Mt. Union.

Who would have in front of the OAC besides the WIAC? Tell me, I'm keen to know. the CCIW, E8 and MIAC are all strong, but even Wilmington ain't that bad. They may go o-fer, but they played a decent Mt. St. Joseph team tough.

Remember, they have just ONE non-conference game, so they knock heads nine times against each other. That leads to many two and three loss seasons for good to great teams that aren't purple.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ryan Tipps on September 26, 2011, 03:40:01 pm
... so they knock heads nine times against each other. That leads to many two and three loss seasons for good to great teams that aren't purple.

Sounds, too, a lot like what was happening in the WIAC prior to 2005. The Wisconsin teams were really tough back then, but it was near impossible to break through the conference slate without a blemish (or two) on one's record because of the parity. And that led to lower playoff seeds and a little difficulty in measuring just how well those teams would stack up to the nation if they didn't beat themselves up all the time.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 26, 2011, 05:47:03 pm
... so they knock heads nine times against each other. That leads to many two and three loss seasons for good to great teams that aren't purple.

Sounds, too, a lot like what was happening in the WIAC prior to 2005. The Wisconsin teams were really tough back then, but it was near impossible to break through the conference slate without a blemish (or two) on one's record because of the parity. And that led to lower playoff seeds and a little difficulty in measuring just how well those teams would stack up to the nation if they didn't beat themselves up all the time.

Exactly! So why would a WIAC supporter question the OAC when his conference has the same problem. (Or had...)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 26, 2011, 08:17:36 pm
Random thoughts:
"I'm hoping the pollsters can finally get over their love affair with ONU and rank teams based on merit.

Does the OAC still deserve the 2nd ranking for conference? If so, why?

MHB has proven that HS still isn't ready to challenge for that conference.  I guess we will find out about Louisiana College next week as they play MHB.  Is the ASC now worthy of consideration for toughest conference in D3?

Is Wittenberg proving to be much better than expected?" 

What to do about Dubuque? 

North Park?  Maybe not top 25, but hats off to their start.   

Commenting on the ASC being worthy of consideration for the best conference in D3, I think it should at least be considered. In my opinion there are four, and maybe FIVE teams that are probably "top 25" teams. Those teams in my opinion are UMHB, Louisiana College, Mississippi College, McMurry, and even Hardin Simmons is probably still a "top 25" team, even with the losses. And i know there are a lot of other teams in other conferences that may be "top 25" teams but lose to good teams. But nevertheless, i do think the ASC should be considered for the toughest of all!!

Also, should be a great game this weekend in Belton when Louisiana College comes to play. Possibly the most underrated team around.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 26, 2011, 08:54:08 pm
I think that best evaluation of a conference is when one matches the members that way one would have a Team Tennis match, e.g., #1 vs. #1, #2 vs. #2, ... , #last vs. #last.

Using that model, I think that the WIAC is clearly the strongest conference.  The OAC is solid and probably #2 in my book.

I wonder how the ASC #8 or #9,  Sul Ross State which lost to D-2 Western New Mexico 35-27, would they fare against a Marietta or Wilmington?

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 26, 2011, 09:31:32 pm
Except when you have a big grouping of teams close to #2, perhaps #2 through #5. Then #2 and #3 of A could beat #2 of B but #2 through #5 of B could beat #4 and #5 of A, etc. etc.

Or I'm over-thinking it...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 26, 2011, 09:38:13 pm
Or I'm over-thinking it...

 ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 26, 2011, 10:01:31 pm
Except when you have a big grouping of teams close to #2, perhaps #2 through #5. Then #2 and #3 of A could beat #2 of B but #2 through #5 of B could beat #4 and #5 of A, etc. etc.

Or I'm over-thinking it...
Yes, it might be a challenge to match a 7-team conference against a 10-team conference.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 26, 2011, 11:40:46 pm
IMO- I think most conferences have teams that are typically weaker and I also think all good conferences struggle with beating each other up throughout the season- it's not exlusively and OAC or WIAC thing.  As such, when I compare conferences I prefer to look at the top 4 teams.  Out of the top 4 teams I try to determine how they would do against the top 4 from other conferences.  No conference other than the WIAC or OAC has the one dominant team, so you have to look past the obvious. 
In no particular order, following are some of the conferences I feel have a better top 4 than the OAC:
ASC-UMHB, Louisiana College, Mississippi College, McMurry and even HS.
WIAC- UWW, Oshkosh, Platteville, Eau Claire
MIAC- St. Thomas, Bethel, St. John (despite current issues), Augsburg
CCIW- NCC, Wheaton, IL Weslyan, Carthage or Elmhurst
NWC- Linfield, Pac Lutheran, Willamette, I'll have to only take 3 here.
IIAC- Coe, Dubuque, Wartburg, Central
OAC- Mt Union and then who?  Baldwin Wallace?  Capital?  ONU?  Muskingam?  Are these three non MT teams collectively better than the other conferences top teams?  I just don't think so. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: AUPepBand on September 26, 2011, 11:48:30 pm
IMO- I think most conferences have teams that are typically weaker and I also think all good conferences struggle with beating each other up throughout the season- it's not exlusively and OAC or WIAC thing.  As such, when I compare conferences I prefer to look at the top 4 teams.  Out of the top 4 teams I try to determine how they would do against the top 4 from other conferences.  No conference other than the WIAC or OAC has the one dominant team, so you have to look past the obvious. 
In no particular order, following are some of the conferences I feel have a better top 4 than the OAC:
ASC-UMHB, Louisiana College, Mississippi College, McMurry and even HS.
WIAC- UWW, Oshkosh, Platteville, Eau Claire
MIAC- St. Thomas, Bethel, St. John (despite current issues), Augsburg
CCIW- NCC, Wheaton, IL Weslyan, Carthage or Elmhurst
NWC- Linfield, Pac Lutheran, Willamette, I'll have to only take 3 here.
IIAC- Coe, Dubuque, Wartburg, Central
OAC- Mt Union and then who?  Baldwin Wallace?  Capital?  ONU?  Muskingam?  Are these three non MT teams collectively better than the other conferences top teams?  I just don't think so.

How do you think Salisbury, Alfred, Springfield and Ithaca/St. John Fisher would do against the OAC?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 26, 2011, 11:49:49 pm
Really, the OAC is the dregs, eh?

The reason we're having this tussle is that the 2010 ONU team went to the round of 16.

The 2005 and 2006 Capital team made the quarters.

Many times, because of OAC shenanigans the runner up has 2 losses, thanks to Mt. Union.

Who would have in front of the OAC besides the WIAC? Tell me, I'm keen to know. the CCIW, E8 and MIAC are all strong, but even Wilmington ain't that bad. They may go o-fer, but they played a decent Mt. St. Joseph team tough.

Remember, they have just ONE non-conference game, so they knock heads nine times against each other. That leads to many two and three loss seasons for good to great teams that aren't purple.

Now Smed, let's not put words in my mouth.  Just because I don't buy into the OAC as the 2nd best conference doesn't mean I think they are the dregs. 
I'll make this statement about the OAC as well.  As much credit as we all give Coach Kehres and Mt for 18 or 19 consecutive conference championships, I don't think you can give the rest of the conference a pass for allowing it to happen. 

ONU- One way to say it is like you did- they made it to the final 16.  Another way to say it is they won ONE playoff game, and then got beat Soundly by NCC.  It only takes one win to make it to the final 16- and one win, in my book, doesn't qualify as a "deep playoff run"- which was your statement.

05 and 06 Capital did well as the #2 team.  That was quite a while ago and many things have changed since then- in particular a team named NCC that was just making its rise then.  I don't think you'd want any OAC team not named MT facing them any time soon. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 26, 2011, 11:50:41 pm
Well, usually yes Capital, BW, ONU and John Carroll are top-flight. JCU is going through a down phase. It's a wacky year there, may need to let things sort out. But again, they took care of business in the one non-conference chance they had. So taking an appearance from a Cap - BW game, not knowing the history of it, is like taking WIAC game and just dismissing it as three-loss teams playing each other.

BTW, Massey does have the OAC ranked sixth, thus far, but there's still not a lot of data points out there.

BTW, BTW - the top of the CCIW always reminded me of the OAC without Mt. Union - but the bottom of the CCIW isn't as good as the bottom of the OAC. Again, lack of non-conference chances hurt the OAC in this game.


Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 26, 2011, 11:59:06 pm
IMO- I think most conferences have teams that are typically weaker and I also think all good conferences struggle with beating each other up throughout the season- it's not exlusively and OAC or WIAC thing.  As such, when I compare conferences I prefer to look at the top 4 teams.  Out of the top 4 teams I try to determine how they would do against the top 4 from other conferences.  No conference other than the WIAC or OAC has the one dominant team, so you have to look past the obvious. 
In no particular order, following are some of the conferences I feel have a better top 4 than the OAC:
ASC-UMHB, Louisiana College, Mississippi College, McMurry and even HS.
WIAC- UWW, Oshkosh, Platteville, Eau Claire
MIAC- St. Thomas, Bethel, St. John (despite current issues), Augsburg
CCIW- NCC, Wheaton, IL Weslyan, Carthage or Elmhurst
NWC- Linfield, Pac Lutheran, Willamette, I'll have to only take 3 here.
IIAC- Coe, Dubuque, Wartburg, Central
OAC- Mt Union and then who?  Baldwin Wallace?  Capital?  ONU?  Muskingam?  Are these three non MT teams collectively better than the other conferences top teams?  I just don't think so.

How do you think Salisbury, Alfred, Springfield and Ithaca/St. John Fisher would do against the OAC?

AU Pep, I plead a bit uninformed when it comes to those 4 and I didn't look into their recent past.  I know they have all had good years and appear to be on a good track this year. I believe all or most of the teams have had a run-in with Mt in the past few years and haven't faired well.  Have they played any of the other OAC schools? 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 27, 2011, 12:27:49 am
Well, usually yes Capital, BW, ONU and John Carroll are top-flight. JCU is going through a down phase. It's a wacky year there, may need to let things sort out. But again, they took care of business in the one non-conference chance they had. So taking an appearance from a Cap - BW game, not knowing the history of it, is like taking WIAC game and just dismissing it as three-loss teams playing each other.

BTW, Massey does have the OAC ranked sixth, thus far, but there's still not a lot of data points out there.

BTW, BTW - the top of the CCIW always reminded me of the OAC without Mt. Union - but the bottom of the CCIW isn't as good as the bottom of the OAC. Again, lack of non-conference chances hurt the OAC in this game.

The CCIW team without a (conference) win in the 21st century is NPU.  They are 3-0 (including beating a solid WashU team by exactly the same margin that nationally-ranked Witt beat them) - what is Wilma's record?  The rest of our bottom appears to be Millikin (2-1), 4-time national champ Augie (0-3, all games close and against opponents who are now 10-2), and either Elmhurst (2-1) or Carthage (3-0).  Are you SURE you want to pit the bottom of the OAC against them (or at least declare the OAC clearly better)?

BTW, your beloved Massey declares the (non-d3, in football) NESCAC as the #1 conference.  HUH?!  Proof positive that Massey is NOT based solely on results (since NESCAC HAS none against anyone else - in football, it is intramurals).

IMHO, this year it is a close race among WIAC, CCIW, and ASC for #1 conference.  And there (alas) will never be enough evidence to resolve that debate.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 27, 2011, 09:34:31 am
Ypsi,

I noticed that the D-3 Massey is a bit wonky with the NESCAC. Maybe I'll send a note. The overall ratings segregate out the NESCAC because of that but you need to find the D-3 teams in the big mess o' teams. I'd use Sagarin but ol' iconoclast Jeff doesn't put effort into that because USA Today won't buy it!

Wilma's only non-OAC loss was a close tussle with Mt. St. Joseph. Not a bad team. But would you put Millikin against John Carroll or Marietta?

I realize I may be arguing more historically than anything, and God knows why would I give the OAC more credit than they're due. But I do think the OAC, in years like this, doesn't look as strong as it could because of their round-robin. Of course, I would NEVER want them to give up the round-robin because that's the only way to get a true conference championship.

(This year, I also said the Witt QB was definitely the best QB in the NCAC. I must be getting soft with age...)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 27, 2011, 02:21:54 pm
Ypsi,

I noticed that the D-3 Massey is a bit wonky with the NESCAC. Maybe I'll send a note. The overall ratings segregate out the NESCAC because of that but you need to find the D-3 teams in the big mess o' teams. I'd use Sagarin but ol' iconoclast Jeff doesn't put effort into that because USA Today won't buy it!

Wilma's only non-OAC loss was a close tussle with Mt. St. Joseph. Not a bad team. But would you put Millikin against John Carroll or Marietta?

I realize I may be arguing more historically than anything, and God knows why would I give the OAC more credit than they're due. But I do think the OAC, in years like this, doesn't look as strong as it could because of their round-robin. Of course, I would NEVER want them to give up the round-robin because that's the only way to get a true conference championship.

(This year, I also said the Witt QB was definitely the best QB in the NCAC. I must be getting soft with age...)

I'm sure this subject is ready for the back burner.  Hopefully this will be my last arguement and it relates to this idea that "the bottom of the OAC isn't as bad as the bottom of abc conference".
Below are Conference Opponent scores Vs Mt (I know Mt is great.  But a conference is making improvement when scores like the below are infrequent, as opposed to frequent as it is in the OAC):

2011:
58-7
66-7

2010:
51-7
51-0
52-0

2009:
56-0
58-0
56-0

2008:
51-13
55-0
49-0
49-7
49-0

2007:
62-0
62-3
59-0
57-0

These, IMO, are not scores that support the top to bottom strength of a conference.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: frank uible on September 27, 2011, 03:50:23 pm
Also the winner of NESCAC will go undefeated, untied and unscored upon in the playoffs.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on September 27, 2011, 08:20:13 pm
These, IMO, are not scores that support the top to bottom strength of a conference.

The OAC's argument has never been top to bottom strength though; someone wrote it above. It's been take our 2 through 5 and match it up vs. your conference's 1 through 4.

The lack of depth -- the same thing that hurts the NCAC -- also has to hurt the OAC.

I re-do the conference rankings this week. When Pat and I do them we always seriously consider moving the OAC down, but the reasoning never bears it out. In fact you DO have to count UMU as part of the conference, and quite often there are teams chasing UMU that would be winning other conferences.

That said this is the year it might move. Haven't gotten into the meat of the research yet so don't wanna comment further before Thursday's column posts.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 27, 2011, 09:49:35 pm
D3 Top 25 Fan Poll: Through Games of September 24th

1. Wisconsin Whitewater (14)        374 (pts)           1 (LW)
2. Mount Union (1)                      361                   2
3. St. Thomas                            333                    3
4. Mary Hardin-Baylor                 318                   5
5. Linfield                                  308                   7
6. Wheaton                                298                   6
7. Bethel                                   287                   4
8. North Central                         270                   8
9. Wesley                                  219                   9
10. Thomas More                        208                   12
11. Montclair State                      179                   15
12(t) Kean                                 176                   13
12(t) Redlands                            176                   14
14(t) Wabash                              169                   17
14(t). Wittenberg                         169                   18
16. Alfred                                   145                   16
17. Trine                                    115                   19
18. Louisiana College                     96                    unranked
19. Delaware Valley                       88                   unranked
20. Cortland State                         83                    23
21. California Lutheran                   72                    21
22. Salisbury                                61                    25
23. Wartburg                                60                    11
24. Wisconsin-Oshkosh                   46                    unranked
25. Wisconsin-Platteville                 42                    unranked

Dropped from Top 25: Ohio Northern, Hardin-Simmons, Hampden-Sydney, Baldwin-Wallace.

Also Receiving Votes Ohio Northern (35), Johns Hopkins (33), Wisconsin-Eau Claire (26), Dubuque (20), Trinity (20), Hardin-Simmons (17), Franklin (15), Adrian (11), Hampden-Sydney (9), Illinois Weslayan (6), McMurry (6), St. John Fisher (6), Baldwin-Wallace (5), Muskingum (3), Centre (2), Monmouth (2), Coe (1), Washington & Lee (1)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 27, 2011, 10:01:47 pm
Looks like one of the 2 who have been putting Mount Union first didn't vote this week
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 27, 2011, 10:35:19 pm
I'll own up to Muskingum getting three votes.

Undefeated, and blew out the ninth team in the nation. I thought they deserved some recognition.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 27, 2011, 10:50:26 pm
Looks like one of the 2 who have been putting Mount Union first didn't vote this week

True
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 27, 2011, 10:55:22 pm
Looks like one of the 2 who have been putting Mount Union first didn't vote this week

I admit to voting Mt #1 still.  This is the big week for me w UWW as I believe this should be their toughest test to date. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 27, 2011, 11:01:11 pm
I'll "own up" to 9 on Adrians 11 points (which hopefully is proven right when they beat Trine at Trine this weekend), the 2 centre points, and the Washington and Lee point....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on September 27, 2011, 11:26:36 pm
I'll own up to Muskingum getting three votes.

Undefeated, and blew out the ninth team in the nation. I thought they deserved some recognition.

Yeah, doesn't Muskingum deserve more credit than only a few votes? I really dont know much about these guys at all. Is Ohio Northern a little down this year or are these guys legit? Would they be the type of team to challenge Mount Union?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 27, 2011, 11:46:16 pm
I have Musky as #10 in the North Region and someone on my 'watch' list.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 28, 2011, 12:03:03 am
I'll own up to Muskingum getting three votes.

Undefeated, and blew out the ninth team in the nation. I thought they deserved some recognition.

Yeah, doesn't Muskingum deserve more credit than only a few votes? I really dont know much about these guys at all. Is Ohio Northern a little down this year or are these guys legit? Would they be the type of team to challenge Mount Union?

I believe Ohio Northern was over rated coming into this season.  They beat Otterbein by 1 point. Otterbein lost to Heidelberg by 21 points.  Then ONU lost by 20 points to the Muskies. Although I'm good with the Muskies getting some polling points, I think they soundly beat an over rated team.  ONU was 9th ranked, but clearly not the 9th best team in the country.   The scores in the recent past would indicate that the Muskies will pose no threat to Mount:

2010: 52-0 MU
2009: 45-14 MU
2008: 51-13 MU
2007: 62-0 MU
2006: 62-0 MU (not a typo same score as 07)
2005: 45-0 MU
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 28, 2011, 12:08:57 am
Itís interesting to compare the Fan Poll with the D3football.com top 25 this week.  The variance isnít that great, but I have to say, I like the way the Fans have tilted a few of the rankings. My opinions arenít intended to criticize either poll. My thoughts are based on who I think would win if the teams being compared played head to head, not the merits of where they should be ranked per se.


The Top four teams are identical.

Five through Seven: Same teams different order.  D3F has Bethel, Linfield, Wheaton.  Fan poll has Linfield, Wheaton Bethel.  (I like Linfield as 5th better, but I would put Bethel ahead of Wheaton).

Eight: D3F has Thomas More. Fan Poll has North Central. (I think North Central is better and it isnít close.)

Nine:D3F has North Central. FP has Wesley. D3F has Wesley 11th.  (I like the D3F position for Wesley better.)

Ten: D3F has Kean.  (I think this is way too high for Kean. They have earned current ranking with big wins, but I sense a paper lion.  I donít believe they will last.)  FP has Thomas More.

Eleven: D3F has Wesley. FP has Montclair State.  D3Football has Montclair 12th.

Twelve: FP has Kean and Redlands tied. D3F has Kean 10 and Redlands 13.  (I guess it all comes out in the wash. Redlands may well lose this week and suffer a drop.)

Fourteen through Sixteen: Fan Poll ties Wabash and Wittenberg at 14, with Alfred at 16.  D3F places Alfred, Wabash, Wittenberg. (Hard to quibble. All three of these teams are very close.)

Seventeen Trine in both polls. 

Eighteen: D3F has Cortland State.  FP Louisiana College.  I love the Fan poll choice here.

Nineteen: D3F Louisiana College. Fan poll Delaware Valley. I like the D3F positioning of 21 for DV better.

Twenty and Twenty-one: D3F has Cal Lutheran and Delaware Valley.  Fan Poll has Cortland State 20 and Cal Lutheran at 21. 

Twenty-two to twenty-five: D3F has Wartburg, Johns Hopkins, Ohio Northern, and Salisbury.  FP has Salisbury, Wartburg, Wisconsin-Oshkosh, and Wisconsin-Platteville. Although I agree with D3F putting Salisbury at 25, rather than FPís 22, I think UW-O and UW-P make the FP grouping Stronger than the D3F group. 

Wow, in reading that back, I'm not even sure I could follow it! Oh well, it's typed up, so I'll go with it.   :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2011, 12:16:03 am
Otterbein lost to Heidelberg by 21 points.  Then ONU lost by 20 points to the Muskies.

Actually, these things both happened at the same time. If Otterbein had lost to Heidelberg like that last week, it may have given a better indication how overrated ONU was. But to list them in sequence like this suggests facts that were not in evidence when the poll was voted on.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on September 28, 2011, 12:40:35 am
Itís interesting to compare the Fan Poll with the D3football.com top 25 this week.  The variance isnít that great, but I have to say, I like the way the Fans have tilted a few of the rankings. My opinions arenít intended to criticize either poll. My thoughts are based on who I think would win if the teams being compared played head to head, not the merits of where they should be ranked per se.

Funny, I nearly did the same thing, but I figured I have plenty of cyberspace devoted to my thoughts, no need to take up space on the fan boards. I also don't follow the fan poll very closely, but I took a good look this week. So since you brought it up ...

my observations are mine alone and aren't intended to discredit the fan poll or credit the official poll, since a lot of my beefs are present in both polls:

1) Still don't like Redlands below North Central. While it's nice that NCC would have won on a hypothetical neutral field, that's not what happened. Not sure why I am alone on this.

2) No way Fisher should get 6 votes in your poll and Hobart 0.

3) Thomas More way too high. There should be a reward for beating W&J, but I don't see what they've done besides beat up on the PAC to deserve top-10 status.

4) Bethel too low. Why behind Wheaton?

5) None of the fans can figure out which UW teams to vote for either, huh? lol At least they all play each other eventually.

6) I think Witt and Bash are too high based on who they play and beat, until they play each other. But I can understand why they are where they are. After 12 or so, it gets really shaky. I like Alfred and LC around there personally, but I don't know that they've done much more to justify being there either. Those are more hunches/respect for conference strength.

7) You guys dropped all the right teams out.

8) Not really a difference if one poll has a team 18 and the other 19.

9) I was hard on the Montclair State (and Salisbury) bandwagon preseason but backed off with skin-of-their-teeth wins ... so now i think both polls are overrating them. But now-me could be wrong and preseason-me could be right.

10) I think CLU is too low given they were competitive with Linfield, but it doesn't matter. They'll get a bounce with the Redlands win or drop out if they lose, most likely.

The interesting thing to me when looking at the fan poll is to see if a grouping of 15 other minds aside from the official 25 voters sway the overall picture at all. What it seems to prove most often is that if you get a handful of people who pay attention, you'll get roughly the same results.

Have we ever tried combining the two for a master sampling of 40 minds? Just for fun, but also to weed out the variances each poll has? For instance, I can't get a team into the poll by my lonesome, as I'm just 1/25th of the voting, but I know I'm responsible for a lot of Hobart's and Birmingham-Southern's points. A few other outliers like me and we could get them into the top 25 even if most of the ballots had them unranked. Thoughts?

Also the fan poll comes out later in the week. Any chance the official poll influences it? I try, for instance, in my play of the week votes, to watch the videos before I read my fellow voters choices. Maybe a psych major could speak to this, but don't we like to think like people we like and respect think? (assuming fan poll likes and respects d3 poll here lol)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 28, 2011, 06:45:58 am
I think that the Fan Poll is the complementary 3rd leg of the 3-legged stool.

The Coaches Poll (the old UPI for the gray hair types on the boards), the Associated Press, and Fan Poll are three different views.

By 6-7 games, we should be reaching some degree of harmony.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 28, 2011, 07:56:38 am
Also the fan poll comes out later in the week. Any chance the official poll influences it? I try, for instance, in my play of the week votes, to watch the videos before I read my fellow voters choices. Maybe a psych major could speak to this, but don't we like to think like people we like and respect think? (assuming fan poll likes and respects d3 poll here lol)

I'm the same way...I don't look at the D3football poll until I submit mine.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2011, 08:48:08 am
The fan poll is not particularly geographically diverse, which is a big difference. Ours is intentionally evenly distributed.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 28, 2011, 09:13:35 am
The fan poll is open to anyone who wants to submit an entry.

We're not saying our poll is gospel, it's just something fun to do each week for the fans.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2011, 10:01:43 am
No, I understand. Just pointing out a difference that may help people understand the variances in the results.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: crufootball on September 28, 2011, 10:20:18 am
The fan poll is not particularly geographically diverse, which is a big difference. Ours is intentionally evenly distributed.

Hey Pat, is the D3football.com poll distributed based on where more D3 schools are the 25 votes distributed equally no matter  the amount of D3 schools in the area?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on September 28, 2011, 10:27:46 am
The fan poll is not particularly geographically diverse, which is a big difference. Ours is intentionally evenly distributed.

Hey Pat, is the D3football.com poll distributed based on where more D3 schools are the 25 votes distributed equally no matter  the amount of D3 schools in the area?
I don't know the exact composition of the voters in the poll, but I would guess that he roughly has 6 pollsters from each of the 4 regions and 1 national/at-large voter.  Also, in other forums he has shared the information that he sends to each voter after each week and it is an impressive amount of information on common opponents, stats, etc.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sju56321 on September 28, 2011, 10:28:14 am
I am part of this fan poll and the big problem I have this week is moving Bethel down because they had a bye week. I don't see how any team should drop because they can't schedule an opponent.
Second, not sure I agree that just because one poll has voters from all over, it is better than another poll, unless you mean that each voter has seen teams play in person in that area, then I understand. Of course those of us in the mid-west probably have not seen Kean play in person, how many D3football voters have? Or how many of the d3football voters from the east coast or west coast have seen UWW-Platteville play in person?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 10:30:19 am
K-Mack,

I give NCC a pass because of the circumstances in their loss to Redlands. From the looks of it, it seemed to be a huge wake-up call. I think I'll be proven right.

I gave ONU a pass on the close win over Otterbein, and I was proven wrong.

Maybe I should flip a coin!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 10:39:03 am
I am part of this fan poll and the big problem I have this week is moving Bethel down because they had a bye week. I don't see how any team should drop because they can't schedule an opponent.

Think of it this way. In a hypothetical poll.

15. Kenyon
16. North Park
17. Sul Ross St.
18. Kalamazoo
19. Husson

Kenyon wins as they should.
North Park wins a conference game, on the road, closer than was expected.
Sul Ross has a bye
Kalamazoo goes on the road and upsets a team I have highly ranked.
Husson blows out someone at home convincingly in a game pundits had it as close.

Because of the data I may rank them like this now:

13. Kenyon
14. Kalamazoo
15. North Park
16. Husson
17. Sul Ross St.

just because of more data points. It's not that I penalize Sul Ross, but the others below them exceeded expectations. Not ranking them higher would penalize them if I have to keep Sul Ross sacrosanct because of the bye.

Is that clear?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2011, 11:50:45 am
The fan poll is not particularly geographically diverse, which is a big difference. Ours is intentionally evenly distributed.

Hey Pat, is the D3football.com poll distributed based on where more D3 schools are the 25 votes distributed equally no matter  the amount of D3 schools in the area?

It would be silly for us to have a voter in Colorado considering there are no schools there, so yes, the geography is tied to where there are actually schools. There are 25 voters and slightly more than 25 conferences -- the conferences with more playoff success are the ones represented on the panel. A handful of conferences don't have voters.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sju56321 on September 28, 2011, 12:02:47 pm
Ok Smedindy I get that example-but tell me how that played out here last week?
Mary Hardin-Baylor beat Hardin-Simmmons, then ranked #20-as expected.
Linfield beat an 0-1 team by a big score, expected.
Wheaton beat an 0-3 by a decent score.
Really doesn't work in the example you provided-but I do get that if the #5 beat the #1 team, and #4 is on a bye then can be jumped by #5. Maybe I should have not have added that a team should not drop on a bye, but if the teams below them are playing lower ranked teams, then I don't see how they should fall. If #4 is on a bye, and #5 beats #6, why would #5 jump #4?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 12:08:59 pm
sju - wasn't getting into specifics, but just positing a theory.

Also, the voting membership has been fluid. This week, mt. Union lost a first place vote because the voter didn't cast his ballot. That could have affected the voting.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 28, 2011, 12:11:31 pm
Also the fan poll comes out later in the week. Any chance the official poll influences it? I try, for instance, in my play of the week votes, to watch the videos before I read my fellow voters choices. Maybe a psych major could speak to this, but don't we like to think like people we like and respect think? (assuming fan poll likes and respects d3 poll here lol)
I generally try to arrange my ballot Sat night/Sun morning, then leave it till Sunday night, make a couple alterations and send it in.
By doing it early I don't let the official poll influence me per se, but I will look afterwards and compare to see who is ranked who I don't have and who is getting some votes for teams to possibly add to my "watch list"

2) No way Fisher should get 6 votes in your poll and Hobart 0.
I don't even have Fisher on my watch list right now while Hobart is. Another team with no votes that I think should get a little attention is Albright.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 28, 2011, 12:20:04 pm
Really doesn't work in the example you provided-but I do get that if the #5 beat the #1 team, and #4 is on a bye then can be jumped by #5. Maybe I should have not have added that a team should not drop on a bye, but if the teams below them are playing lower ranked teams, then I don't see how they should fall. If #4 is on a bye, and #5 beats #6, why would #5 jump #4?
If team A is ranked #5 and their body of work for the season is improved to be better than team B ranked #4 because they beat the #6 team then they certainly should be jumped ahead. If the following week team B beats say a team ranked 18th and team A beats a winless team, team B could possibly jump back ahead. The poll should be fluid rather than just this team lost and falls down to there and every team moves up 1.
I've had a team win and still fall out out of the poll. My 4-5-6 order has been different in each of the last 3 polls without anyone losing.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sju56321 on September 28, 2011, 12:25:52 pm
Smedindy-ok, but I appreciate your initial response, as it exposed a flaw in my thinking-just wan't sure I missed something obvious this past weekend, which could have happened being that I saw first-hand the debacle at SJU!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on September 28, 2011, 12:31:38 pm
I am part of this fan poll and the big problem I have this week is moving Bethel down because they had a bye week. I don't see how any team should drop because they can't schedule an opponent.
Second, not sure I agree that just because one poll has voters from all over, it is better than another poll, unless you mean that each voter has seen teams play in person in that area, then I understand. Of course those of us in the mid-west probably have not seen Kean play in person, how many D3football voters have? Or how many of the d3football voters from the east coast or west coast have seen UWW-Platteville play in person?

IDK about that either, Bethel stayed in the #4 spot for me, a bye with no major changes below them doesn't change anything IMO.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 28, 2011, 12:50:44 pm
Otterbein lost to Heidelberg by 21 points.  Then ONU lost by 20 points to the Muskies.

Actually, these things both happened at the same time. If Otterbein had lost to Heidelberg like that last week, it may have given a better indication how overrated ONU was. But to list them in sequence like this suggests facts that were not in evidence when the poll was voted on.

Actually, in this post, I was responding to the question as to whether Musky is likely to give Mount a good game this year.  I was just citing evidence that perhaps their win over ONU wasn't as impressive as it looks on the surface. My point wasn't really about the ranking.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 28, 2011, 12:52:34 pm
2) No way Fisher should get 6 votes in your poll and Hobart 0.

FYI....One voter ranked Fisher 20th.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: AUKaz00 on September 28, 2011, 01:50:40 pm
FWIW, I'm the knucklehead who didn't get his Mount-leading ballot in this week, but if I had Hobart would have had 7 points.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 28, 2011, 02:02:35 pm
2) No way Fisher should get 6 votes in your poll and Hobart 0.

FYI....One voter ranked Fisher 20th.

Did you ever get a chance to tally-up where everyone is voting from?

Region/Conference?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 28, 2011, 02:46:07 pm
K-Mack:
I completely understand your issue w NCC being ranked ahead of Redlands- but I also admit I am guilty of doing so. After week 1 (and maybe wk 2 also) I had Redlands ahead- but the sheer dominating performance by NCC has led me to switch it. I believe NCC is the 3rd best team in the country, even w the loss.

And Absolutely I believe the D3 poll influences/ informs the fan poll- Especially the initial rankings. Some on this very board have used the D3 poll to support their position on a team.
It's understandable though because, IMO, I simply dont have enough information to determine where teams like Mont St, Cortland, Kean, Sals, Thomas Moore, Del Val, etc belong.

I used the D3 poll initially to support my 11-25 and still do when it comes to teams I just am not familiar with.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 03:16:09 pm
I for one actually get my poll in as soon as all the games are done Saturday night, so at least for this voter the D3 poll doesn't affect how I vote. What it does is affirms my "watch" list.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 28, 2011, 03:34:48 pm
2) No way Fisher should get 6 votes in your poll and Hobart 0.

FYI....One voter ranked Fisher 20th.

Did you ever get a chance to tally-up where everyone is voting from?

Region/Conference?

I have not gotten a response from everyone. I am tallying them as they come in. So far it looks like we are North and West Region heavy. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 03:42:15 pm
I'm not surprised by that at all.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 28, 2011, 04:09:16 pm
Did you ever get a chance to tally-up where everyone is voting from?

Region/Conference?

I have not gotten a response from everyone. I am tallying them as they come in. So far it looks like we are North and West Region heavy.
I completely forgot to put that on my ballot... North region/HCAC/Franklin if you don't have it
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 28, 2011, 06:20:51 pm
I for one actually get my poll in as soon as all the games are done Saturday night, so at least for this voter the D3 poll doesn't affect how I vote. What it does is affirms my "watch" list.

As the season has taken shape it is easier to do your own poll without reference.  What about your first poll- before any games had been played? 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 28, 2011, 07:14:19 pm
I for one actually get my poll in as soon as all the games are done Saturday night, so at least for this voter the D3 poll doesn't affect how I vote. What it does is affirms my "watch" list.

So, you are saying you never look at the D3football.com poll at anytime?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 28, 2011, 08:34:55 pm
The interesting thing to me when looking at the fan poll is to see if a grouping of 15 other minds aside from the official 25 voters sway the overall picture at all. What it seems to prove most often is that if you get a handful of people who pay attention, you'll get roughly the same results.

Have we ever tried combining the two for a master sampling of 40 minds? Just for fun, but also to weed out the variances each poll has? For instance, I can't get a team into the poll by my lonesome, as I'm just 1/25th of the voting, but I know I'm responsible for a lot of Hobart's and Birmingham-Southern's points. A few other outliers like me and we could get them into the top 25 even if most of the ballots had them unranked. Thoughts?

D3Football.Com/D3 Top 25 Fan Combination Poll through games of September 24th


1. Wisconsin-Whitewater (33)       993
2. Mount Union (7)                       967
3. St. Thomas                              887
4. Mary Hardin-Baylor                   857
5. Linfield                                     814
6. Bethel                                      797
7. Wheaton                                  767
8.  North Central                           647
9.  Thomas More                            602
10. Wesley                                    574
11.  Kean                                      545
12.  Montclair St.                           492
13.  Redlands                                466
14.  Alfred                                      431
15.  Wabash                                   426
16.  Wittenberg                              404
17.  Trine                                       339
18.  Louisiana College                     262
19.  Cortland State                       257
20.  Cal Lutheran                            230
21.  Delaware Valley                       193
22.   Wartburg                                157
23(t) Johns Hopkins                      128
23(t) Ohio Northern                       128
25.   Salisbury                              119
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 08:57:42 pm
I for one actually get my poll in as soon as all the games are done Saturday night, so at least for this voter the D3 poll doesn't affect how I vote. What it does is affirms my "watch" list.

So, you are saying you never look at the D3football.com poll at anytime?

What I meant is that I only look at the poll when it's released to place teams on my 'watch list' that I may have missed. I don't look at the poll to cast my ballot. And since I do it Saturday night, it wouldn't do any good, now would it! I have my last poll I sent in and then the scoreboard (and then links to box scores, etc.)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 28, 2011, 08:59:03 pm
I for one actually get my poll in as soon as all the games are done Saturday night, so at least for this voter the D3 poll doesn't affect how I vote. What it does is affirms my "watch" list.

As the season has taken shape it is easier to do your own poll without reference.  What about your first poll- before any games had been played?

Not the poll, but I read all of the wonderful pre-season publication on d3football.com. Yes it ranked teams but I had my own ideas from the last season.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 28, 2011, 09:04:59 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 29, 2011, 12:20:28 am
I've got 15 "affiliations" of the 17 people who have submitted ballots in 2011.  Here is the breakdown of those 15:

West Region (8)
WIAC-7
MIAC-1

North Region (4)
HCAC-1
NCAC-1
MIAA-1
OAC-1

East Region (2)
NJAC-1
E8-1

South Region(1)
ASC-1


Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 29, 2011, 01:04:51 am
I've got 15 "affiliations" of the 17 people who have submitted ballots in 2011.  Here is the breakdown of those 15:

West Region (8)
WIAC-7
MIAC-1

North Region (4)
HCAC-1
NCAC-1
MIAA-1
OAC-1

East Region (2)
NJAC-1
E8-1

South Region(1)
ASC-1
Not too bad on distribution... except for the slight WIAC bias ::)

Interesting that even though voting was voluntary and no one turned away, we had about 1/3 of the conferences represented and all but one had just 1 voter. Would like to see a couple more from the South and East though (and maybe a non WIAC west). Maybe poke around those boards to see if a couple more people would vote. Perhaps if we get some more voters from those unrepresented areas then we could see about trimming down the number of WIAC voters? It's ok at the moment since we need all the voters we can get, but if we get more voters then perhaps we can try to get a bit more evenly distributed
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on September 29, 2011, 01:24:30 am
^^ Looks like the poll has a home field advantage!!  ;)  Let's see what gets revealed when River Falls or La Crosse wins a game!!  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 29, 2011, 12:38:50 pm
I've got 15 "affiliations" of the 17 people who have submitted ballots in 2011.  Here is the breakdown of those 15:

West Region (8)
WIAC-7
MIAC-1

North Region (4)
HCAC-1
NCAC-1
MIAA-1
OAC-1

East Region (2)
NJAC-1
E8-1

South Region(1)
ASC-1

Surprised no one from the CCIW or NWC would want to join in the fun  8-)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 29, 2011, 01:40:32 pm
Does Ypsi vote? I wonder where he cast his allegiance?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 29, 2011, 07:24:03 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 29, 2011, 07:58:46 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on September 29, 2011, 08:43:23 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

I was actually talking about the diversity of conferences of the voters, but thanks I was looking for this too....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 30, 2011, 12:42:25 am
Does Ypsi vote? I wonder where he cast his allegiance?

Fall is my camping sojourn.  I come to town briefly on Tuesdays for my bowling league; otherwise am near a computer only Thursday (or Friday) thru Sunday, to cast my pickems picks, and run the MIAA pickems.

I run (and pick in) the basketball fan poll (camping in Michigan is not a viable option in January! ;)), but don't feel qualified to vote in the football poll.  Not that that would ever keep me from commenting on those who do! ;D).

I DO cast a ballot in the North Region fan poll - and stubbornly hold that NCC's loss at Redlands was a total fluke, and still have them second only to UMU!  But I just don't spend enough time in what is laughingly called 'the real world' ;) to rate teams across the country.  (My standing in the 4 pickems I participate in will probably confirm this. :P)

If I did vote, my allegiance would be North region, CCIW first, MIAA second.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 30, 2011, 11:50:13 am
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
I actually don't know how to interpret what he wrote.  If his point is to list the conferences most likely to produce this year's national champion- then I agree totally.  If we are supposed to read his format as an actual ranking of the best conferences (which I'll define as top 4-5 teams), then I couldn't disagree more-as long as we are talking 2011 rankings.  "Lop Mt Union off the OAC and you have the CCIW".  Are you kidding me?  That is a ridiculous statement and couldn't be a bigger slap in the face to a conference that deserves more credit.  Take the top 4 2011 OAC teams (whoever you think they might be) and put them against NCC, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan (and pick the 4th from several) and you probably have a clean sweep of the CCIW over the OAC.  If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.  Now work down some of the other conferences.  ASC- a complete wipeout of the OAC- making the OAC no better than 4th.  MIAC- probably 3-1 against the OAC- making the OAC no better than 5th.  The NWC- do you think Linfield, Cal Lutheran and Willamette are going to struggle against 2-4 in the OAC this year? 

   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on September 30, 2011, 12:19:13 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
I actually don't know how to interpret what he wrote.  If his point is to list the conferences most likely to produce this year's national champion- then I agree totally.  If we are supposed to read his format as an actual ranking of the best conferences (which I'll define as top 4-5 teams), then I couldn't disagree more-as long as we are talking 2011 rankings.  "Lop Mt Union off the OAC and you have the CCIW".  Are you kidding me?  That is a ridiculous statement and couldn't be a bigger slap in the face to a conference that deserves more credit.  Take the top 4 2011 OAC teams (whoever you think they might be) and put them against NCC, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan (and pick the 4th from several) and you probably have a clean sweep of the CCIW over the OAC.  If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.  Now work down some of the other conferences.  ASC- a complete wipeout of the OAC- making the OAC no better than 4th.  MIAC- probably 3-1 against the OAC- making the OAC no better than 5th.  The NWC- do you think Linfield, Cal Lutheran and Willamette are going to struggle against 2-4 in the OAC this year? 

Ya just couldn't leave it alone, could ya 02?  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 30, 2011, 12:35:09 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
I actually don't know how to interpret what he wrote.  If his point is to list the conferences most likely to produce this year's national champion- then I agree totally.  If we are supposed to read his format as an actual ranking of the best conferences (which I'll define as top 4-5 teams), then I couldn't disagree more-as long as we are talking 2011 rankings.  "Lop Mt Union off the OAC and you have the CCIW".  Are you kidding me?  That is a ridiculous statement and couldn't be a bigger slap in the face to a conference that deserves more credit.  Take the top 4 2011 OAC teams (whoever you think they might be) and put them against NCC, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan (and pick the 4th from several) and you probably have a clean sweep of the CCIW over the OAC.  If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.  Now work down some of the other conferences.  ASC- a complete wipeout of the OAC- making the OAC no better than 4th.  MIAC- probably 3-1 against the OAC- making the OAC no better than 5th.  The NWC- do you think Linfield, Cal Lutheran and Willamette are going to struggle against 2-4 in the OAC this year? 

Ya just couldn't leave it alone, could ya 02?  ;)

And another thing.  "OAC teams went 7-3 against non conference opponents".  Oooo, that's impressive.  The combined record of the teams they beat is 6 wins and 19 losses- and one of the teams they beat is Oshkosh (Mt Union) w 2 of those 6 wins.  3 of the 7 wins came against teams that have yet to win a game (0-11). 
A lamer (new word I think, but it's football Friday and I'm fired up) arguement could not have been presented to support a top tier for the OAC.     
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 30, 2011, 12:47:56 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
I actually don't know how to interpret what he wrote.  If his point is to list the conferences most likely to produce this year's national champion- then I agree totally.  If we are supposed to read his format as an actual ranking of the best conferences (which I'll define as top 4-5 teams), then I couldn't disagree more-as long as we are talking 2011 rankings.  "Lop Mt Union off the OAC and you have the CCIW".  Are you kidding me?  That is a ridiculous statement and couldn't be a bigger slap in the face to a conference that deserves more credit.  Take the top 4 2011 OAC teams (whoever you think they might be) and put them against NCC, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan (and pick the 4th from several) and you probably have a clean sweep of the CCIW over the OAC.  If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.  Now work down some of the other conferences.  ASC- a complete wipeout of the OAC- making the OAC no better than 4th.  MIAC- probably 3-1 against the OAC- making the OAC no better than 5th.  The NWC- do you think Linfield, Cal Lutheran and Willamette are going to struggle against 2-4 in the OAC this year? 

Ya just couldn't leave it alone, could ya 02?  ;)

And another thing.  "OAC teams went 7-3 against non conference opponents".  Oooo, that's impressive.  The combined record of the teams they beat is 6 wins and 19 losses- and one of the teams they beat is Oshkosh (Mt Union) w 2 of those 6 wins.  3 of the 7 wins came against teams that have yet to win a game (0-11). 
A lamer (new word I think, but it's football Friday and I'm fired up) arguement could not have been presented to support a top tier for the OAC.   

What I don't get is why the CCIW isn't up in arms defending themselves from such insult.  Have they read the conference rankings?  Is it my responsibility to post the comments on their board and inform them of how lowly they are thought of (the same as the Empire 8- come on!!!!).  Sometimes I think the posters over there are too smart- dallying in subjects I just don't understand.  Take up Arms I say and defend yourselves lads. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 30, 2011, 01:47:40 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
I actually don't know how to interpret what he wrote.  If his point is to list the conferences most likely to produce this year's national champion- then I agree totally.  If we are supposed to read his format as an actual ranking of the best conferences (which I'll define as top 4-5 teams), then I couldn't disagree more-as long as we are talking 2011 rankings.  "Lop Mt Union off the OAC and you have the CCIW".  Are you kidding me?  That is a ridiculous statement and couldn't be a bigger slap in the face to a conference that deserves more credit.  Take the top 4 2011 OAC teams (whoever you think they might be) and put them against NCC, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan (and pick the 4th from several) and you probably have a clean sweep of the CCIW over the OAC.  If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.  Now work down some of the other conferences.  ASC- a complete wipeout of the OAC- making the OAC no better than 4th.  MIAC- probably 3-1 against the OAC- making the OAC no better than 5th.  The NWC- do you think Linfield, Cal Lutheran and Willamette are going to struggle against 2-4 in the OAC this year? 

Ya just couldn't leave it alone, could ya 02?  ;)

Just striring the pot   8-)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on September 30, 2011, 01:50:30 pm

If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.

I'm not saying I disagree, I was just curious on your thoughts about Keith's column.

 
A lamer (new word I think, but it's football Friday and I'm fired up)....     

No kidding....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on September 30, 2011, 02:14:03 pm
Did that conference listing come out? Or did I just miss it?

The conference rankings are out on D3 site. Interesting format.

No comment about OAC being in the top tier?
I actually don't know how to interpret what he wrote.  If his point is to list the conferences most likely to produce this year's national champion- then I agree totally.  If we are supposed to read his format as an actual ranking of the best conferences (which I'll define as top 4-5 teams), then I couldn't disagree more-as long as we are talking 2011 rankings.  "Lop Mt Union off the OAC and you have the CCIW".  Are you kidding me?  That is a ridiculous statement and couldn't be a bigger slap in the face to a conference that deserves more credit.  Take the top 4 2011 OAC teams (whoever you think they might be) and put them against NCC, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan (and pick the 4th from several) and you probably have a clean sweep of the CCIW over the OAC.  If you agree with my statement above (and how could you be a writer of a D3 football blog and not agree), then the OAC is no better than 3rd.  Now work down some of the other conferences.  ASC- a complete wipeout of the OAC- making the OAC no better than 4th.  MIAC- probably 3-1 against the OAC- making the OAC no better than 5th.  The NWC- do you think Linfield, Cal Lutheran and Willamette are going to struggle against 2-4 in the OAC this year? 

Ya just couldn't leave it alone, could ya 02?  ;)

And another thing.  "OAC teams went 7-3 against non conference opponents".  Oooo, that's impressive.  The combined record of the teams they beat is 6 wins and 19 losses- and one of the teams they beat is Oshkosh (Mt Union) w 2 of those 6 wins.  3 of the 7 wins came against teams that have yet to win a game (0-11). 

OK...so let's play that game with the CCIW.
CCIW went 18-6 against nonconference opponents.
8 of the 18 wins came against teams that have yet to win a game (three against Olivet!)
The combined record of the teams they beat is...16-49.
(FYI, that's about the same winning percentage as 6-19)

Your argument is just as flawedas the D-3 writers.
Only fair of you to acknowledge that.

The OAC and CCIW are both great conferences, and it's not their fault that teams they've beaten in the early going have subpar records (actually, it kind of IS their fault, since they are contributing to those lowly records by BEATING them).

The only thing that really supports your argument is the victory of CCIW champ North Central over OAC runner-up Ohio Northern in the 2010 playoffs.  I would also point out that North Central defeated every CCIW team (including runnerup Wheaton) by a larger margin than they did ONU.

For a while, the OAC runner-up consistently made the playoffs and often advanced until they ran into Mount (this happened five separate times from 1999-2006, including a 2002 run by John Carroll to the semifinals before losing to Mount, and 2005-06 Capital made the quarterfinals before losing to Mount).  I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the next 3-4 OAC teams are viable contenders against top teams from other conferences.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on September 30, 2011, 05:14:24 pm
Ex Tartan- my son's game starts in 52 minutes, otherwise I'd be glad to point out the flaws of your arguement. I do have time to say this, the reason I showed wins and losses of opponents of the OAC was to demonstrate the flaw in the D 3 writers' inclusion of the "7-3 vs non conf" as if that should be impressive.
I'll give you plenty of other reasons why the CCIW's top 4 would blank the OAC's 2-5 teams when I have time.
Go Hawks
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on September 30, 2011, 06:51:09 pm
Speaking of the CCIW, I'm interested in the Carthage NCC game at Carthage tomorrow. Could be an interesting result.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on September 30, 2011, 08:37:51 pm
Maybe it's not an insult. I always thought the CCIW looked at the OAC as an aspirational peer.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on September 30, 2011, 09:00:02 pm
One thing I will note about the CCIW in postseason play - against anyone but UMU or UWW, the CCIW is something over 90% wins against all others in the past c. two decades.  The ONLY year that neither UMU or UWW was in the 'North', pool C Wheaton won it (only to be ousted in the semis by, you guessed it, UMU). :P

Back when playoffs were by regions (rather than four top seeds around whom 'regions' were constructed), we were at first delighted when UMU went East.  That, of course, was the very year that UWW broke through with their first Stagg title (and was imported as the North #1 seed ::)).  What's that about "out of the frying pan, into ..."?

The CCIW has the misfortune of being located directly between Alliance and Whitewater. 8-)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 01, 2011, 10:44:19 am
If you want to discuss Around the Nation, there's a board for that. You might get someone else's attention then, too.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 01, 2011, 04:36:47 pm
What have I been saying all year long?

Adrian is the best MIAA school, not Trine.

Adrian 26
@ Trine 7
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 01, 2011, 05:10:25 pm
It's going to be another interesting week of ranking and discussions... does Trine fall out, will Adrian get in the rankings and pass them, what to do with Ohio Northern? And the day isn't even done yet
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 01, 2011, 05:29:38 pm
What to do about Bethel? And does the shellacking by the Tommies take the luster off of UW-EC's win in Collegeville?

The weather may have plagued the OAC today. This is why it's not good to do score comparisons, much less year-over-year comparisons. In conference play, especially in established conferences, wacky things happen.



Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 01, 2011, 05:47:26 pm
Aw, smed, score comparisons are fun!

Muskingum beat ONU by 20; UMU beat ONU by 8; ergo, Muskingum is 12 points better than UMU! ;D

Oh, and Musky beat Wilmington by only 11, so Wilma is 9 points better than ONU and 1 point better than UMU! :D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 01, 2011, 07:48:21 pm
What to do about Bethel? And does the shellacking by the Tommies take the luster off of UW-EC's win in Collegeville?

UW-EC's game was the second of the year...we're now in week four...big difference.  Who's to say UW-EC doesn't do the same to the Johns in week four playing at home? I don't think it takes any luster off their win AT Collegeville.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on October 01, 2011, 08:07:08 pm
Aw, smed, score comparisons are fun!

Muskingum beat ONU by 20; UMU beat ONU by 8; ergo, Muskingum is 12 points better than UMU! ;D

Oh, and Musky beat Wilmington by only 11, so Wilma is 9 points better than ONU and 1 point better than UMU! :D
So what does this really say about these three teams? Does this mean that maybe Mount Union is a little down this year? Or maybe it just means that Muskingum is really something, and Ohio Northern and Mount Union are just as good as usual. Does ONU drop out of the top 25? And does Muskingum have a chance to take down the purple raiders??? So many questions!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 01, 2011, 10:05:24 pm
What to do about Bethel? And does the shellacking by the Tommies take the luster off of UW-EC's win in Collegeville?

UW-EC's game was the second of the year...we're now in week four...big difference.  Who's to say UW-EC doesn't do the same to the Johns in week four playing at home? I don't think it takes any luster off their win AT Collegeville.

Just askin' the questions. The Johnnies' record is most Hamline-esque.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 01, 2011, 10:27:57 pm
As a public service, and pending the Redlands / Cal Lutheran result, here are the undefeated members of D-3. Note: I didn't include anyone that may be undefeated against D-3 but has a loss (like UW-Eau Claire) because, well, I just thought of that and I gots other stuffs to do. Oh, and this excludes the NESCAC for good reasons.

In no order:

Mary Hardin-Baylor
Johns Hopkins
Illinois Wesleyan
Salisbury
Dubuque
Hobart
Delaware Valley
Adrian
St. Thomas
Augsburg
Wabash
Wittenberg
Worcester State
Endicott (Why can't you be like Endicott? Sorry, had a Kid Creole moment...)
Kean
Montclair State
Lewis & Clark
Linfield
Mt. Union
Muskingum
Thomas More
Birmingham Southern
Centre
Trinity (TX)
Redlands
St. Scholastica
UW - Whitewater
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mugsy on October 02, 2011, 08:23:51 am
The only thing that really supports your argument is the victory of CCIW champ North Central over OAC runner-up Ohio Northern in the 2010 playoffs.  I would also point out that North Central defeated every CCIW team (including runnerup Wheaton) by a larger margin than they did ONU.

For a while, the OAC runner-up consistently made the playoffs and often advanced until they ran into Mount (this happened five separate times from 1999-2006, including a 2002 run by John Carroll to the semifinals before losing to Mount, and 2005-06 Capital made the quarterfinals before losing to Mount).  I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the next 3-4 OAC teams are viable contenders against top teams from other conferences.

Very minor point, but there was another OAC runner up that lost prior to facing Mount Union in the playoffs.
2003: Wheaton def. Baldwin Wallace 16-12
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 02, 2011, 03:12:42 pm
Mine is in.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 02, 2011, 09:20:34 pm
Boy this one wasn't easy...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 02, 2011, 09:23:40 pm
Boy this one wasn't easy...

...when the going gets tough...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 02, 2011, 09:28:02 pm
Interested to see if Mount loses any first-place votes (both in this and D3football's poll).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 02, 2011, 09:41:49 pm
Interested to see if Mount loses any first-place votes (both in this and D3football's poll).

They did...2 in the d3football poll.  Fan's poll is too unpredictable.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: CruFrenzy on October 02, 2011, 10:07:55 pm
Why is Wesley ahead of Kean in the D3.com poll? I bet Kean fans are ticked.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 02, 2011, 10:21:40 pm
Why is Wesley ahead of Kean in the D3.com poll? I bet Kean fans are ticked.

I would be too if I was a Kean fan.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 02, 2011, 10:26:51 pm
Kean fans should be ticked their team only beat TCNJ 7-6. That's probably the stumbling block. Wesley beat an FCS scholarship team this week, and not a first-year program like UTSA either.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 02, 2011, 10:27:56 pm
Kean's win looks more fluky, especially after too close for comfort win Friday. Wesley has righted course much like North Central. Beating a FCS team on the road that took the field against UCF and Florida State (even if they are 0-5) is fairly impressive.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 02, 2011, 10:56:42 pm
Interested to see if Mount loses any first-place votes (both in this and D3football's poll).
They don't have many to lose in the fan poll... they could gain one since one of the two who have been putting them first didn't vote last week
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 02, 2011, 10:58:02 pm
Kean's win looks more fluky, especially after too close for comfort win Friday. Wesley has righted course much like North Central. Beating a FCS team on the road that took the field against UCF and Florida State (even if they are 0-5) is fairly impressive.

CSU's taking the field for 2 beatdown paydays, combined score 124-10, isn't all that impressive in my view. They would still be 0-5 even if they play all bottom rung teams, which is what their schedule is mainly comprised of. BTW, they need those paydays to pay for scholarships since they only draw less than 4,000 in attendance.  IMO, a fluky win (your words) is still a win as is a win that's too close for comfort. I don't think Wesley is worthy of a 4 position bump.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 03, 2011, 12:11:02 am
They basically "have to" jump two spots considering Bethel and Wheaton lost.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 03, 2011, 12:19:34 am
Bobo,

Given the body of work, who would win now on a neutral field?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: clandfan on October 03, 2011, 01:06:51 pm
Kean fans should be ticked their team only beat TCNJ 7-6. That's probably the stumbling block. Wesley beat an FCS scholarship team this week, and not a first-year program like UTSA either.

So if Kean's poor "showing" and Wesley's good "showing" are valid arguments, how do we justify Ohio Northern dropping out of the poll for holding Mount Union to 14 points and losing by only 7.  Perhaps the best regular season "showing" against the power house in recent memory.

Personally, I think Kean IS overrated but they have managed to win and perhaps that is why they are still #10.  I just don't think that Ohio Northern is getting enough credit here.  I'm not a pollster but I could see this as a good loss that could have actually raised them in the poll.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 03, 2011, 01:17:10 pm
Kean fans should be ticked their team only beat TCNJ 7-6. That's probably the stumbling block. Wesley beat an FCS scholarship team this week, and not a first-year program like UTSA either.

So if Kean's poor "showing" and Wesley's good "showing" are valid arguments, how do we justify Ohio Northern dropping out of the poll for holding Mount Union to 14 points and losing by only 7.  Perhaps the best regular season "showing" against the power house in recent memory.

Personally, I think Kean IS overrated but they have managed to win and perhaps that is why they are still #10.  I just don't think that Ohio Northern is getting enough credit here.  I'm not a pollster but I could see this as a good loss that could have actually raised them in the poll.

Because Ohio Northern lost. It's tough to keep a team that lost in two straight weeks in the top 25. Especially when there's so many other schools that are more deserving to be in the poll. For instance:Ill. Wesleyan, Dubuque, Adrian, St. Olaf, Muskingum....imo.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 03, 2011, 03:54:39 pm
...how do we justify Ohio Northern dropping out of the poll for holding Mount Union to 14 points and losing by only 7.  Perhaps the best regular season "showing" against the power house in recent memory.

  I just don't think that Ohio Northern is getting enough credit here.  I'm not a pollster but I could see this as a good loss that could have actually raised them in the poll.

With all due respect to the fine effort by ONU, playing in that kind of slop can REALLY affect the score.  I can think of a few games, both from my playing career and games observed as a "fan" where I was shocked at the final score, only to realize that the weather made a huge difference.  Just two examples:

In 2005, as a fan/alum, I watched an excellent HS team (my brother's senior season) that finished 11-1 steamrolled several quality opponents struggle to a 13-0 win in monsoon-like conditions against a team that finished the season with two wins.  Our HS coach used the same conservative strategy that UMU did vs. ONU - get a lead, shut it down and keep the ball on the ground, get out of there with a win.

In 2006, I played in a slopfest against Hiram that we (Carnegie Mellon) eventually won 27-6.  Hiram finished the season 0-10.  We finished 10-0 and won a playoff game.  On a dry field, we win that game by 50.

It's never an excuse for LOSING - in my mind, weather is part of the game, and if you're truly the "better" team you should still manage a W regardless - but I've seen enough instances of weather keeping the score down to believe that serious rain/mud can turn a three-TD margin into a one-TD margin.

(*Note: I have no affiliation with either school, and have no vested interest in making an "excuse" for why this game was close)

Point being, I'm not reading too much into the face that UMU "only" won that game by 8, and unfortunately I think that ONU has to be dropped from the poll (more because of the Muskingum loss and the lack of a major quality WIN) until they record a quality win or two.  If ONU reels off five straight blowout wins, then I'll start arguing that they should still be ranked.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 03, 2011, 06:54:55 pm
...how do we justify Ohio Northern dropping out of the poll for holding Mount Union to 14 points and losing by only 7.  Perhaps the best regular season "showing" against the power house in recent memory.

  I just don't think that Ohio Northern is getting enough credit here.  I'm not a pollster but I could see this as a good loss that could have actually raised them in the poll.

With all due respect to the fine effort by ONU, playing in that kind of slop can REALLY affect the score.  I can think of a few games, both from my playing career and games observed as a "fan" where I was shocked at the final score, only to realize that the weather made a huge difference.  Just two examples:

In 2005, as a fan/alum, I watched an excellent HS team (my brother's senior season) that finished 11-1 steamrolled several quality opponents struggle to a 13-0 win in monsoon-like conditions against a team that finished the season with two wins.  Our HS coach used the same conservative strategy that UMU did vs. ONU - get a lead, shut it down and keep the ball on the ground, get out of there with a win.

In 2006, I played in a slopfest against Hiram that we (Carnegie Mellon) eventually won 27-6.  Hiram finished the season 0-10.  We finished 10-0 and won a playoff game.  On a dry field, we win that game by 50.

It's never an excuse for LOSING - in my mind, weather is part of the game, and if you're truly the "better" team you should still manage a W regardless - but I've seen enough instances of weather keeping the score down to believe that serious rain/mud can turn a three-TD margin into a one-TD margin.

(*Note: I have no affiliation with either school, and have no vested interest in making an "excuse" for why this game was close)

Point being, I'm not reading too much into the face that UMU "only" won that game by 8, and unfortunately I think that ONU has to be dropped from the poll (more because of the Muskingum loss and the lack of a major quality WIN) until they record a quality win or two.  If ONU reels off five straight blowout wins, then I'll start arguing that they should still be ranked.

Nice post ExTart- I second everything you said.  If ONU had something impressive on its resume before the slop game vs. Mt, the arguement for ranking would have more merit. 

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 03, 2011, 08:52:11 pm
I am one of those people "not giving ohio Northern enough credit", as I actually dropped MU below MHB because of how close that game was. I think MU should be beating them by a couple of scores.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 03, 2011, 09:21:43 pm
Bobo,

Given the body of work, who would win now on a neutral field?

As a UWW fan, my views regarding Wesley are pretty well documented on these boards. As a non-UWW fan, it's hard for me to explain to you how little I think about Wesley in the grand scheme of things without bashing them. So, I'm not even going to try.

Kean may not be the greatest 4-0 team, but they did give Wesley their only loss on the year. That's one of the few things we know for sure about these two. There have been no common opponent to factor in. And finally, I don't find it fairly impressive to beat a lousy FCS team in CSU that had already lost to another non-scholarship school and who's only claim to fame has been rubbing shoulders (and acting as human tackling dummies) with UCF and FSU. Nor does a narrow victory mean a whole lot to me concerning Kean. So, as far as their body of work this year, IMO, the jury's still out on both of them. I need a bit more factual data before I can make a determination.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 03, 2011, 09:28:26 pm
Bobo,

FYI, Massey has Charleston Southern as #358 and Kean at #363. Wesley is #312. That's after five weeks and so it's pretty well connected data now.

Sflzman,

Not only was it the slop, if anyone is a rival to Mt. Union it's ONU.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 04, 2011, 12:14:08 am
Bobo,

FYI, Massey has Charleston Southern as #358 and Kean at #363. Wesley is #312. That's after five weeks and so it's pretty well connected data now.

Sflzman,

Not only was it the slop, if anyone is a rival to Mt. Union it's ONU.

Interestingly, UWW at #178 comes just before Norfolk St. (#179), CSU's opponent 2 weeks ago on those very Massey Ratings.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 04, 2011, 12:22:13 pm
I am one of those people "not giving ohio Northern enough credit", as I actually dropped MU below MHB because of how close that game was. I think MU should be beating them by a couple of scores.

Interesting post here sflzman.  I'm not sure if you posted this before, do you have MHB at #2 now?  Where do you rank St. Thomas? 
For the playoffs, I'd really like to see MU play at least one of these four in order of interest:  NCC, MHB, Linfield and St. Thomas.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 04, 2011, 02:37:28 pm
A scary thought. A final four of Linfield, St. Thomas, UW-W, and Mt. Union.

There's no way it would happen now, but it'd be all purple, all the time!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 04, 2011, 02:43:35 pm
A scary thought. A final four of Linfield, St. Thomas, UW-W, and Mt. Union.

There's no way it would happen now, but it'd be all purple, all the time!

A more realistic Purple Final Four would possibly be:

East: Mount Union
North: UWW
West: St. Thomas
South: MHB
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 04, 2011, 03:37:48 pm
I am one of those people "not giving ohio Northern enough credit", as I actually dropped MU below MHB because of how close that game was. I think MU should be beating them by a couple of scores.

Interesting post here sflzman.  I'm not sure if you posted this before, do you have MHB at #2 now?  Where do you rank St. Thomas? 
For the playoffs, I'd really like to see MU play at least one of these four in order of interest:  NCC, MHB, Linfield and St. Thomas.

My top 5 is as follows:

1. UWW
2. MHB
3. UMU
4. St Thomas
5. Linfield

I was almost impressed enough with the whooping StT put on the Johnnies that I almost put them above UMU as well....
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ncc58 on October 04, 2011, 05:27:13 pm
Interested to see if Mount loses any first-place votes (both in this and D3football's poll).

They did...2 in the d3football poll.  Fan's poll is too unpredictable.

I'm surprised that MTU is even getting first place votes in the d3football. I'm mainly a CCIW guy but I usually see UWW in person a few times each season. UWW beat a supposedly good UWP easily this weekend, even though it was tied at weekend. The Warhawks plain dominated the second half. UWP had been just outside the Top 25. Earlier this season, UWW easily beat Franklin, which many people look at with interest. I can't believe anyone would not vote UWW #1. Their only challenge will be keeping LC healthy.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 04, 2011, 07:29:36 pm
I am one of those people "not giving ohio Northern enough credit", as I actually dropped MU below MHB because of how close that game was. I think MU should be beating them by a couple of scores.

Interesting post here sflzman.  I'm not sure if you posted this before, do you have MHB at #2 now?  Where do you rank St. Thomas? 
For the playoffs, I'd really like to see MU play at least one of these four in order of interest:  NCC, MHB, Linfield and St. Thomas.

My top 5 is as follows:

1. UWW
2. MHB
3. UMU
4. St Thomas
5. Linfield

I was almost impressed enough with the whooping StT put on the Johnnies that I almost put them above UMU as well....

I like it, it's different than most I'm sure. 
My top 6:
1.  UWW
2.  Mt Union
3.  St. Thomas
4.  NCC
5.  Linfield
6.  MHB
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 04, 2011, 07:42:46 pm
Quote
I like it, it's different than most I'm sure. 
My top 6:
1.  UWW
2.  Mt Union
3.  St. Thomas
4.  NCC
5.  Linfield
6.  MHB

Okay, let's create a bracket for the Elite 8.

East

MUC/UMU vs. _____

North

UWW vs. NCC

South

UMHB vs. ______ (Wesley?)

West

Tommies vs Linfield
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on October 04, 2011, 07:46:56 pm
Quote
I like it, it's different than most I'm sure. 
My top 6:
1.  UWW
2.  Mt Union
3.  St. Thomas
4.  NCC
5.  Linfield
6.  MHB

Okay, let's create a bracket for the Elite 8.

East

MUC/UMU vs. _____

North

UWW vs. NCC

South

UMHB vs. ______ (Wesley?)

West

Tommies vs Linfield

Highest rated east team I have is Salisbury, at #14 so I'd put them against UMU and I'd have Wesley against UMHB there.

My top 5:

1.   UW- Whitewater
2.   Mount Union
3.   St. Thomas
4.   Linfield
5.   North Central

I have UMHB at #8, I feel if you put them against a defense that can stop the run (like my top 5) that they'd throw way too many picks and not be able to throw the ball well enough at all out of their newish pistol to stay competitive. Added to that the defense isn't what it used to be either. That doesn't mean that UMHB is a bad team though and won't go far.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 04, 2011, 08:03:43 pm
Quote
I like it, it's different than most I'm sure. 
My top 6:
1.  UWW
2.  Mt Union
3.  St. Thomas
4.  NCC
5.  Linfield
6.  MHB

Okay, let's create a bracket for the Elite 8.

East

MUC/UMU vs. _____

North

UWW vs. NCC

South

UMHB vs. ______ (Wesley?)

West

Tommies vs Linfield

That's the problem with the East, many good teams, but none that jumps out as a real challenger.  I'd like to see:
North:  Mt vs NCC
West:  UWW vs St. Thomas
South:  MHB vs Linfield
East:   Wesley vs ____ (Wittenberg?)
   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 04, 2011, 08:05:52 pm

Okay, let's create a bracket for the Elite 8.

East

MUC/UMU vs. _____

North

UWW vs. NCC

South

UMHB vs. ______ (Wesley?)

West

Tommies vs Linfield
Based on my ballot I'd have
East: #2 Mt Union vs #8 Montclair St/#9 Delaware Valley
North: #1 UWW vs #6 North Central
South: #4 MHB vs #7 Wesley
West: #3 St Thomas vs #5 Linfield
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: rams1102 on October 04, 2011, 08:51:20 pm

Okay, let's create a bracket for the Elite 8.

East

MUC/UMU vs. _____

North

UWW vs. NCC

South

UMHB vs. ______ (Wesley?)

West

Tommies vs Linfield
Based on my ballot I'd have
East: #2 Mt Union vs #8 Montclair St/#9 Delaware Valley
North: #1 UWW vs #6 North Central
South: #4 MHB vs #7 Wesley
West: #3 St Thomas vs #5 Linfield

I like Montclair in a squeeker against Mt Union. :) I enjoyed my visit to the Sacrificial Alter a few years ago and one never knows. We all know the top 2 to 4 are in a league of their own. Time to get ready for Cortland and take care of business this weekend.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: wally_wabash on October 04, 2011, 09:06:06 pm
A scary thought. A final four of Linfield, St. Thomas, UW-W, and Mt. Union.

There's no way it would happen now, but it'd be all purple, all the time!

Did we miss the boat when that student stood up a century ago and say "Heliotrope hell, we want blood!"?  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 05, 2011, 07:05:54 am
D3 TOP 25 FANPOLL WEEK 6

1.  Wisconsin-Whitewater (15)       375       1(LW)
2.  Mount Union                             359       2
3.  St. Thomas                               339       3
4.  Mary Hardin-Baylor                   323       4
5.  Linfield                                     322       5
6.  North Central                            299       8
7.  Wesley                                     270       9
8.  Thomas More                            231       10
9.  Wabash                                    217       14(t)
10. Montclair State                        213       11
11. Wittenberg                              209       14(t)
12. Bethel                                     201        7
13. Kean                                       184       12(t)
14.  Wheaton                                147        6
15.  Cal Lutheran                           144       21
16.  Cortland State                        136       20
17.  Delaware Valley                     126       22
18.  Illinois Wesleyan                    122       --
19.  Wartburg                               102       23
20.  Redlands                                90        12(t)
21.  Salisbury                                89        22
22.  Wisconsin-Oshkosh                86        24
23.  Dubuque                                47        --
24.  Johns Hopkins                        40         --
25.  Adrian                                    24       --

Dropped Out of Top 25: Alfred, Louisiana College, Trine, Wisconsin-Platteville

Also Receiving Votes: Louisiana College (23), UW-Platteville (23), UW-Eau Claire (22), Alfred (19), Ohio Northern (18), Franklin (17), Hobart (12), Hampden-Sydney (9), Centre (8), St. Olaf (8), McMurry (7), Washington & Lee (6), Monmouth (3), Muskingum (3), St. John Fisher(3), Trinity (1)
           
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 05, 2011, 08:07:41 am
Just a few observations of the differences between this week's Fan Poll and the D3Football.com poll:

1.  FP has UW-W a unanimous #1.  D3F has UW-W with 84% of 1st place votes.
2.  The Top 8 is identical in each poll, but Linfield is really pushing UMHB for 4th in the FP, while Wesley is pushing NCC for 6th in the D3F.
3. The voting broke Wabash's way this week in the FP, moving them from 14th to 9th.  They sit at 12th in D3F.
4.  D3F has Kean 10th. FP slower to believe at 13th.
5.  D3F dropped Bethel 4 spots and Wheaton a whopping 12 after losses.  FP dropped Bethel 5 and Wheaton 8.
6.  UW-Platteville and UW-Oshkosh much more highly regarded in Fan Poll than D3F.  Is that FP WIAC influence, or is D3F underestimating those teams?

Any thoughts? Other observations?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 05, 2011, 08:20:03 am
6.  UW-Platteville and UW-Oshkosh much more highly regarded in Fan Poll than D3F.  Is that FP WIAC influence, or is D3F underestimating those teams?

Any thoughts? Other observations?

IMO FP WIAC influence (darn I was trying to write all that in abbrev.)!!

In the AFCA poll, UW-O is 31st with 51 votes, UW-EC is #36 with 23 votes, & UW-P is #37T with 5 votes.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 05, 2011, 08:50:44 am

IMO FP WIAC influence (darn I was trying to write all that in abbrev.)!!

In the AFCA poll, UW-O is 31st with 51 votes, UW-EC is #36 with 23 votes, & UW-P is #37T with 5 votes.

To me, one of the fun things about looking at polls and filling out a ballot is to decide how much to weigh out the various factors.  In other words, how much do you hold a loss against a team? How much do you weigh or not weigh comparative scores? A big factor I look at is "Who would win head to head more often if a team played x times?"

In the "Who would win" category: What do people think UW-O's record would be against the following schedule?

Thomas More
Kean
Montclair State
Wittenberg
Cortland State
Delaware Valley
Illinois Wesleyan
John Hopkins
Salisbury
Alfred

I obviously don't know the answer myself. I will say that I believe UW-O would go 4-0 against the four teams NOT in the top 25 but receiving more votes than them in the D3F poll:

Hobart, Dubuque, St Olaf, Adrian

More WIAC bias or simply WIAC strength?

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 05, 2011, 10:28:43 am

IMO FP WIAC influence (darn I was trying to write all that in abbrev.)!!

In the AFCA poll, UW-O is 31st with 51 votes, UW-EC is #36 with 23 votes, & UW-P is #37T with 5 votes.

To me, one of the fun things about looking at polls and filling out a ballot is to decide how much to weigh out the various factors.  In other words, how much do you hold a loss against a team? How much do you weigh or not weigh comparative scores? A big factor I look at is "Who would win head to head more often if a team played x times?"

In the "Who would win" category: What do people think UW-O's record would be against the following schedule?

Thomas More
Kean
Montclair State
Wittenberg
Cortland State
Delaware Valley
Illinois Wesleyan
John Hopkins
Salisbury
Alfred

I obviously don't know the answer myself. I will say that I believe UW-O would go 4-0 against the four teams NOT in the top 25 but receiving more votes than them in the D3F poll:

Hobart, Dubuque, St Olaf, Adrian

More WIAC bias or simply WIAC strength?

UW Oshkosh 242- The rest a negative 7.  Da Titans!
Bleed, I don't know how the mighty Titan would fare against the teams you listed, fact is, we WIACers never see those teams play.  D3 poll has Franklin at #25- and imo, Oshkosh beats them. 
This is where the comparative scores/6 degrees of separation/Kevin Bacon comes in to play.  Many of the teams on your list have had a run-in with teams we WIACers have seen play of late.  Thomas More, Mont St, Del Vall, Alfred have all been beaten badly by MHB, Wesley and Mt in the last year.  Comparatively, Oshkosh played a tighter game vs UWW (please don't pick on this point, I was at the game) and they certainly scored more vs Mt. 
This doesn't tell us who would win.  IMO the comparative scores at least justify WIACers bias.     
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 05, 2011, 12:43:44 pm
Ex Tartan- my son's game starts in 52 minutes, otherwise I'd be glad to point out the flaws of your arguement. I do have time to say this, the reason I showed wins and losses of opponents of the OAC was to demonstrate the flaw in the D 3 writers' inclusion of the "7-3 vs non conf" as if that should be impressive.
I'll give you plenty of other reasons why the CCIW's top 4 would blank the OAC's 2-5 teams when I have time.
Go Hawks

Is it a violation of board etiquette to reply to myself?  I owe this response to ExTart. 

5 reasons why I feel the CCIW is a better conference than the OAC (with or without Mt "lopped off", which was the original basis for this dicussion):
-As of today, both the D3 Poll and the Fan Poll list 3 CCIW teams in the top 25.  The "lopped off" OAC has 0, otherwise 1.   
-From '08-'10 (3 seasons)- 2 non Mt OAC teams made the playoffs, winning a combined 1 playoff game in the strecth.  3 CCIW teams made it, winning a combined 8 playoff games in the stretch.
-During same period, 3 CCIW teams won at least 1 playoff game.  Lopped off OAC only 1 team won a playoff game, otherwise 2. 
-During same period, the record of the top 5 teams in conference:  OAC (lopped off): 93-60.  CCIW:120-43.  Obviously Mt record will make a big difference.
-2011 record of all teams:  OAC:  22-18.  CCIW: 22-10 (7 teams at 3-1 or better). 
Ex Tartan, I agree that both the OAC and the CCIW play weak non conference schedules, which is why I place their 2011 results at the end.       
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 05, 2011, 01:03:19 pm

Is it a violation of board etiquette to reply to myself?  I owe this response to ExTart. 

-From '08-'10 (3 seasons)- 2 non Mt OAC teams made the playoffs, winning a combined 1 playoff game in the strecth.  3 CCIW teams made it, winning a combined 8 playoff games in the stretch.
-During same period, 3 CCIW teams won at least 1 playoff game.  Lopped off OAC only 1 team won a playoff game, otherwise 2. 

Fair point.  In particular, these points are probably your strongest - the fact that three different CCIW teams have won at least one playoff game in the past three seasons; I'm not sure any other conference can match that claim today.

My point was merely pointing out that your initial post (which, I understand, was brief) did not really present the argument in full; it seemed only fair, to me, that if you were going to use the weakness of the OAC's non-conference opponents to debunk the validity of their 7-3 nonconference record, then I should point out that the CCIW's non-conference opponents had a record that was equally poor.

*FWIW: I don't have a big beef with relatively "lightweight" nonconference scheduling in Division III, particularly in tough conferences like the CCIW and OAC where you're likely to be tested multiple times in-conference anyway, it's not easy to arrange a big nonconference showdown, and the margin for error in making the playoffs is very thin; lose a tough non-con game and you virtually HAVE to win your conference to get in, not an easy task if your conference schedule includes Wheaton/NorthCentral/IWU or (in better times for the OAC) Capital/Baldwin-Wallace type teams.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 05, 2011, 01:58:16 pm
ExTart- I'm with you on the issue of lighter non conference schedules for teams in established conferences. NCC, Oshkosh, Platteville are 3 examples of teams that played tough non conf games, took a loss and now have almost no chance of playoffs if they lose in conference- unless committee is kind to 8-2's.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 05, 2011, 03:43:21 pm
I know you guys think lightly of the SCAC (given that there are three teams without a loss with a total of 9 points in your poll) but would encourage you to keep an eye on those teams.  Birmingham-Southern has arguably the best results of the three but both Trinity and Centre have had their moments.   Should one of the three roll through the rest of the conference schedule undefeated, they'd certainly be worthy of some consideration for the lower rungs of the poll. 

Maybe one of these days a SCAC team will even win a playoff game again.   I guess if they're going to do it, it will have to be this year since, unless something dramatically unexpected happens, the conference won't have enough football teams for an automatic bid next year and competing with Wesley for the one B means .. Wesley gets it.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 05, 2011, 05:15:08 pm
I know you guys think lightly of the SCAC (given that there are three teams without a loss with a total of 9 points in your poll) but would encourage you to keep an eye on those teams.  Birmingham-Southern has arguably the best results of the three but both Trinity and Centre have had their moments.   Should one of the three roll through the rest of the conference schedule undefeated, they'd certainly be worthy of some consideration for the lower rungs of the poll. 

Maybe one of these days a SCAC team will even win a playoff game again.   I guess if they're going to do it, it will have to be this year since, unless something dramatically unexpected happens, the conference won't have enough football teams for an automatic bid next year and competing with Wesley for the one B means .. Wesley gets it.

Ron, it's not that I think lightly of the conference, I just don't know much about it.  I'm all for new teams making a splash so I'll be rooting for some success there.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: jknezek on October 05, 2011, 06:57:18 pm
I know you guys think lightly of the SCAC (given that there are three teams without a loss with a total of 9 points in your poll) but would encourage you to keep an eye on those teams.  Birmingham-Southern has arguably the best results of the three but both Trinity and Centre have had their moments.   Should one of the three roll through the rest of the conference schedule undefeated, they'd certainly be worthy of some consideration for the lower rungs of the poll. 


I watched the Centre vs W&L game. It was a good win for Centre. I think W&L will do well in the ODAC, possibly finishing first or second. Centre won by one TD at home and I rate the teams as about even at the time. Truly a game where the home team was going to win. I'll be interested to see how Centre does against Birmingham-Southern. I also have noticed that Sewanee, despite still having a losing record, is much improved over prior years. They didn't stack up well against W&L, but have played close games since, including a tight home loss to Birmingham-Southern. I definitely think Centre is worthy of being in the receiving votes category of the polls and look forward to hearing about their matchup this weekend in Birmingham. If I wasn't so busy getting the house ready for my daughter's second birthday I would be tempted to go to that game since it is in town. The winner of that match, if I voted, would be well inside my top 25. That being said, for W&L's SoS (which is pretty poor), I'm pulling for Centre to win out.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 05, 2011, 07:17:44 pm
Ron, I have three SCAC teams on my watch list. There's just a lot of teams at 5-0 or 4-1 that are worthy. What a year! I mean, when do we think Augsburg, or Dubuque, or another 'outside' team is real? Why did many of us think Illinois Wesleyan was due for a fall when they definitely have the goods! Wow.

(I guess for Augsburg and Dubuque, it's this week - Augies vs. Tommies and Wartburg clashes with Dubuque)

As for the WI - OSHKOSH scenario via Massey Ratings:

Oshkosh - 21
Thomas More - 33
Kean - 17
Montclair State - 35
Wittenberg - 45
Cortland State - 30
Delaware Valley - 18
Illinois Wesleyan - 19
John Hopkins - 16
Salisbury - 29
Alfred - 38
Hobart - 12
Dubuque - 34
St Olaf - 56
Adrian - 49

I think Oshkosh would be favored against St. Olaf and Adrian anywhere. Maybe against Alfred.

I think it'd be a home / road scenario for most teams (especially Witt, whose Massey rating is hurt by their lack of road prowess), and a team like Hobart would be a slight favorite anywhere according to an impartial analysis.

Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2011, 10:50:11 pm
The poll should be fluid rather than just this team lost and falls down to there and every team moves up 1.

I've had a team win and still fall out out of the poll. My 4-5-6 order has been different in each of the last 3 polls without anyone losing.

I agree with this totally. I re-evaluate every week, and look at the entire body of work. Sometimes a win that boosted up a team earlier (let's say Wittenberg's 45-28 win against Capital) later looks less impressive because of that losing team's subsequent results.

It's probably tough as a team to wonder what you could have done besides win; same time, polls are just intervals along the way. If you keep winning, you will eventually get your just due in the poll.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: K-Mack on October 05, 2011, 11:02:52 pm
Kean may not be the greatest 4-0 team, but they did give Wesley their only loss on the year. That's one of the few things we know for sure about these two.[/quote]

I tend to agree. While all polling is subjective, h2h wins and losses are absolute, and it has to be a pretty heavy bit of data and outstanding circumstance for me to ignore an h2h win. Or when it gets to be a triangle or quadrangle that h2h wins can no longer solve.

Right now the only h2h win I think my ballot ignores is St. Olaf-Bethel, and I might well correct that after this week.

As of now, Kean worries me, but I still have to keep them above Wesley. Redlands, even with the L to CLU, stays above North Central.

Probably won't stay that way all year, but based on what we know now, that's how I interpret it.

Other people clearly disagree with the "who woulda done what on a neutral field" thinking and such. It's valid, I suppose.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 05, 2011, 11:31:35 pm
If we are considering the indexes, then how about some love for the ASC.

Massey (minus the NESCAC) has UMHB #2, McMurry #5, LaCollege #17.

Massey-BCS has UMHB #2, LaCollege #7 and McMurry #12.

Bornpowerindex has UMHB #3, LaCollege #10 and McMurry #12.

LazIndex has UMHB #4, LaCollege #8 and McMurry #20.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 06, 2011, 12:16:25 pm
I see I'm still the only one giving Muskingum points so far.

It makes me feel not totally stupid knowing they are getting 17 points on the D3football.com poll.  ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 06, 2011, 01:38:34 pm
They're on my 'watch list'. Another crazy week, and they keep winning, they'll be up there. Of course, 'winning' as in 'only losing to Mt. Union'.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 06, 2011, 01:40:58 pm



Other people clearly disagree with the "who woulda done what on a neutral field" thinking and such. It's valid, I suppose.

Week 1 H2H matchups get less and less valid, I think, as time moves on.

And Keith, what would have happened if North Central played Cal Lutheran and won. Where would Redlands, NC, and Cal Lutheran shake out?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 06, 2011, 02:02:07 pm



Other people clearly disagree with the "who woulda done what on a neutral field" thinking and such. It's valid, I suppose.

Week 1 H2H matchups get less and less valid, I think, as time moves on.

And Keith, what would have happened if North Central played Cal Lutheran and won. Where would Redlands, NC, and Cal Lutheran shake out?

Same issue occurred last season when Rowan, Montclair St, and Cortland St. all beat each other. And all three teams finished with just that one loss.

Edit: And I believe it was Rowan who got the short end of the stick, and didn't make the playoffs. While Montclair and Cortland did.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Raider 68 on October 06, 2011, 03:40:50 pm
I know Pat has the data, but it would interesting to know how each region finished in Top 10 for the last
ten years?  :-\

I raise the question, since I am not sure how well the East has performed, given the East region in terms of the last few years has not had ( I believe) a Top 5 team at the playoff selection time.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 06, 2011, 09:49:59 pm
I see I'm still the only one giving Muskingum points so far.

It makes me feel not totally stupid knowing they are getting 17 points on the D3football.com poll.  ;D

I feel Musky has to prove it this week and then they are in top 25. My gut tells me they will struggle against the Berg though.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 06, 2011, 11:48:41 pm
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 06, 2011, 11:55:42 pm
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com

I'm glad you mentioned the Elmhurst-Wheaton game.  I would not be surprised if Elmhurst gives them all they can handle.  I hope Dubuque wins, that's a good story going there. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 07, 2011, 07:13:52 am
I see I'm still the only one giving Muskingum points so far.

It makes me feel not totally stupid knowing they are getting 17 points on the D3football.com poll.  ;D
The problem is there's 30-35 teams that could be in the top 25. If we had more voters I'm sure a few might give them a couple points. They're on my watch list, but probably only the 2nd or 3rd team I'd move in next week if teams drop out.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 07, 2011, 10:50:03 am
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com

I'm glad you mentioned the Elmhurst-Wheaton game.  I would not be surprised if Elmhurst gives them all they can handle.  I hope Dubuque wins, that's a good story going there.

Elmhurst?  The same Elmhurst team that lost to Chicago?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 07, 2011, 12:30:09 pm
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com

I'm glad you mentioned the Elmhurst-Wheaton game.  I would not be surprised if Elmhurst gives them all they can handle.  I hope Dubuque wins, that's a good story going there.

Elmhurst?  The same Elmhurst team that lost to Chicago?

Oh ye of little faith.  Yes, that same Elmhurst- in which the game vs Chicago (not a bad team btw) was a statistical anomaly.   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mugsy on October 07, 2011, 02:28:31 pm
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com

I'm glad you mentioned the Elmhurst-Wheaton game.  I would not be surprised if Elmhurst gives them all they can handle.  I hope Dubuque wins, that's a good story going there.

Elmhurst?  The same Elmhurst team that lost to Chicago?

Oh ye of little faith.  Yes, that same Elmhurst- in which the game vs Chicago (not a bad team btw) was a statistical anomaly.   

Even if Elmhurst upsets Wheaton (which has happened twice in the past decade), that does not make them a top 25 team. Over on CCIW board, I mentioned how Elmhurst has only had 1 season since 1999 where they've been over .500 in the CCIW.  Until they prove otherwise, I don't see them going better than 1-2 against the top CCIW teams (this year appears to be Wheaton, IWU and NCC).

They do have a very solid rushing attack (RB - Williams is likely 1st team All-CCIW), with an experienced QB (3 year starter) and a solid defense.  I can see them upsetting a top team in the CCIW, but I can also see them losing to a lower CCIW team.

Anyway... I've rambled enough.  Elmhurst is not a top 25 team.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 07, 2011, 02:57:07 pm
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com



I'm glad you mentioned the Elmhurst-Wheaton game.  I would not be surprised if Elmhurst gives them all they can handle.  I hope Dubuque wins, that's a good story going there.

Elmhurst?  The same Elmhurst team that lost to Chicago?

Oh ye of little faith.  Yes, that same Elmhurst- in which the game vs Chicago (not a bad team btw) was a statistical anomaly.   

Much like B-W losing to Capital was anomalous?  :D

I've seen Chicago play (via a livestream). If you put pressure on their QB, they can't get the ball to Brizzolara. Brizzolara doesn't touch the ball, they're done.

Their defense isn't that physical either.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 07, 2011, 04:05:12 pm
A quick glance at some of Saturday's more intriguing games:

"In and Around the D3 Top 25"

www.uwwfootball.com



I'm glad you mentioned the Elmhurst-Wheaton game.  I would not be surprised if Elmhurst gives them all they can handle.  I hope Dubuque wins, that's a good story going there.

Elmhurst?  The same Elmhurst team that lost to Chicago?

Oh ye of little faith.  Yes, that same Elmhurst- in which the game vs Chicago (not a bad team btw) was a statistical anomaly.   

Much like B-W losing to Capital was anomalous?  :DI've seen Chicago play (via a livestream). If you put pressure on their QB, they can't get the ball to Brizzolara. Brizzolara doesn't touch the ball, they're done.

Their defense isn't that physical either.

I don't get the reference to this game?  Were the stats lopsided in B-W's favor even though they lost?
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 07, 2011, 06:23:30 pm
An anomalous result doesn't necessarily mean the stats are whacked out one way or another. B-W turned the ball over four times, without those, they were in control. As much as I love statistical analysis, in football it's not always easy to just compare yards. There are penalties, return yardage, and 'garbage' yards gained when defenses get vanilla.

As you should know, teams can bend and not break, giving up 40 or 50 yards, then getting a huge return on an INT or a punt and only have to go 20 yards for a score. Or, penalties could add a lot of yardage forwards or backwards. I think in one NFL game, a team gained 105 yards on an 80 yard drive for a TD because of penalties. That's 25 extra yards that are added to their total.

I contend the B-W result was anomalous because Capital got waxed by the 'Berg 55-3 the next day. I don't think B-W loses to Heidelberg, much less by 52 points.

And in that case, how would you "head-to-head" rankings people suss it out. Team A gets crushed by Team B, who beats Team C handily and then Team C beats Team A by 14 or so....




Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 07, 2011, 10:55:29 pm
An anomalous result doesn't necessarily mean the stats are whacked out one way or another. B-W turned the ball over four times, without those, they were in control. As much as I love statistical analysis, in football it's not always easy to just compare yards. There are penalties, return yardage, and 'garbage' yards gained when defenses get vanilla.

As you should know, teams can bend and not break, giving up 40 or 50 yards, then getting a huge return on an INT or a punt and only have to go 20 yards for a score. Or, penalties could add a lot of yardage forwards or backwards. I think in one NFL game, a team gained 105 yards on an 80 yard drive for a TD because of penalties. That's 25 extra yards that are added to their total.

I contend the B-W result was anomalous because Capital got waxed by the 'Berg 55-3 the next day. I don't think B-W loses to Heidelberg, much less by 52 points.

And in that case, how would you "head-to-head" rankings people suss it out. Team A gets crushed by Team B, who beats Team C handily and then Team C beats Team A by 14 or so....

I understand your point.  I look at the stats to see whether a team had success in long drives and defensive stops to determine if a team was outplayed.  In the case of Elmhurst, they had the more dominant stats which simply suggests to me that without big plays like an interception return and a punt return, which are rare no matter how good a team is, that if the game were played again, there is a good chance the results would be different.  I don't know whether Elmhurst will prove to be top 25 worthy, but I do feel they haven't yet lost their chance to prove it. 
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 08, 2011, 07:46:45 am
"Ya Gotta Pull For..."

www.uwwfootball.com
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 08, 2011, 03:48:27 pm
Huntingdon's performance against Witt could have a cascading affect on my ballot. If the Hawks hold on, then it will force me to reconsider Birmingham Southern, Centre AND Huntingdon.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on October 08, 2011, 03:57:25 pm
Huntingdon's performance against Witt could have a cascading affect on my ballot. If the Hawks hold on, then it will force me to reconsider Birmingham Southern, Centre AND Huntingdon.

Kean could cause some problems as well, somehow their winning now after being down 10 for awhile. They're still not playing that well.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 08, 2011, 04:01:48 pm
10-0 st. thomas over Augsburg in the 3rd.

Augsburg hangin in there
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: MasterJedi on October 08, 2011, 04:50:26 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 08, 2011, 05:01:05 pm
10-0 st. thomas over Augsburg in the 3rd.

Augsburg hangin in there

17-0 final for the toms
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 08, 2011, 08:16:43 pm
Wittenberg was exposed by Huntingdon.

What to do with Witt, Huntingdon, and Birmingham Southern, who beat Huntingdon?


Dubuque may be for real, but lost a rough one to Wartburg 42-39.

What to do about Dubuque?

What to do about Cortland? Losing that game to Montclair is tough, but is it really worth demoting them?

What about Kean, who played poorly, again, but won while Wesley played well and won?

What to do about Eau Claire and Oshkosh?

At least Muskingum came back to earth.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 08, 2011, 08:23:01 pm
Wittenberg was exposed by Huntingdon.

What to do with Witt, Huntingdon, and Birmingham Southern, who beat Huntingdon?


Dubuque may be for real, but lost a rough one to Wartburg 42-39.

What to do about Dubuque?

Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 08, 2011, 08:40:53 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion. Throw in the WIAC's typical craziness, the IIAC carnage today, CCIW with IWU still to play NCC, the NJAC's possible finish and this could be one of the most unpredictable/controversial Pool C years we've had in a while.

But at least the Fan Poll got easier...oh, wait.  :o
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 08, 2011, 08:43:23 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion. Throw in the WIAC's typical craziness, the IIAC carnage today, CCIW with IWU still to play NCC, the NJAC's possible finish and this could be one of the most unpredictable/controversial Pool C years we've had in a while.

But at least the Fan Poll got easier...oh, wait.  :o
ASC and SCIAC are in line to get Pool C bids.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 08, 2011, 09:24:22 pm
Could a "B" like Huntingdon, with one loss, become a "C". The Witt win really helps their cause, especially if BSC wins the SCAC.

The SCAC could get a "C" providing they don't cannibalize themselves when Centre, BSC and Trinity play.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 08, 2011, 09:33:31 pm
They could. Football has never done it, though.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Hawks88 on October 08, 2011, 09:54:06 pm
Could a "B" like Huntingdon, with one loss, become a "C". The Witt win really helps their cause, especially if BSC wins the SCAC.

The SCAC could get a "C" providing they don't cannibalize themselves when Centre, BSC and Trinity play.
If Huntingdon finishes with one loss then we would likely be the Pool B pick as that would mean we win out including beating Wesley to finish the regular season.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: jknezek on October 08, 2011, 10:00:45 pm
You have to be impressed with Huntingdon. One close road loss to B-SC and good home wins over (at the time ranked) H-SC and Witt. Fortunately with Wesley still to play, you won't really have to make a tough pool B choice if they both are 8-1 on 11/12. I fully expect the winner of that game, at 9-1, to get the bid. At 8-2, I'm thinking the loser goes home. Fair or not, that is the peril of being in Pool B. On the other hand, all it really means is your playoff starts a weak early.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Hawks88 on October 08, 2011, 10:03:52 pm
Just checked and CWRU's one loss is out of region so they may still need to lose one somewhere.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 08, 2011, 10:10:15 pm
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good. I guess he also played both ways and had an INT of defense.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 08, 2011, 10:30:17 pm
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good.

Really?? I was sure Spaulding did it 1 on 11  ::) 'himself' was obviously meant in the manner of 'as well' or 'in addition too' the remarkable day for Zweifel, which is why I didn't write 'by himself.' But thanks for parsing that out for me and assuming I was a total idiot in regards to the most basic and fundamental aspect of football, namely that it's a game played with 11 guys lined up against 11 guys.

And my point about Zweifel still stands. His numbers are mind boggling, and given the other games this season and in his career, he is 'on an absolutely torrid pace'. So yeah, as my original post intimates, he is putting together a remarkable season and career.

The condescending nature of your post just strikes me as totally unnecessary and uncalled for. Yeesh!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 08, 2011, 10:31:14 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion. Throw in the WIAC's typical craziness, the IIAC carnage today, CCIW with IWU still to play NCC, the NJAC's possible finish and this could be one of the most unpredictable/controversial Pool C years we've had in a while.

But at least the Fan Poll got easier...oh, wait.  :o
ASC and SCIAC are in line to get Pool C bids.

I wasn't implying the ASC and SCIAC wouldn't be in the Pool C race, merely listing a couple of conference races that have the potential of getting really crazy down the stretch. The MIAC could be included in this list as well.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 08, 2011, 10:52:36 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion. Throw in the WIAC's typical craziness, the IIAC carnage today, CCIW with IWU still to play NCC, the NJAC's possible finish and this could be one of the most unpredictable/controversial Pool C years we've had in a while.

But at least the Fan Poll got easier...oh, wait.  :o
ASC and SCIAC are in line to get Pool C bids.

I wasn't implying the ASC and SCIAC wouldn't be in the Pool C race, merely listing a couple of conference races that have the potential of getting really crazy down the stretch. The MIAC could be included in this list as well.
Please understand, as the poster from the southwestern realm of D3, I wanted to bring those conferences to the discussion.

I also think that the NJAC, the MIAC and the E8 are on the short list for Pool C.

By that I mean that those conferences should have 2 teams in the Regional Rankings, from which Pool C is taken.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on October 08, 2011, 10:57:42 pm
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good. I guess he also played both ways and had an INT of defense.

I know what you meant Hazz. Sometimes those WIACers are a little slow on such things. They're good guys, but think they know a little more than you. All because UWW starts winning. Don't take it personally. And by the way, by take, I don't mean "steal" or "pilfer." ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 08, 2011, 11:44:07 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion. Throw in the WIAC's typical craziness, the IIAC carnage today, CCIW with IWU still to play NCC, the NJAC's possible finish and this could be one of the most unpredictable/controversial Pool C years we've had in a while.

But at least the Fan Poll got easier...oh, wait.  :o
ASC and SCIAC are in line to get Pool C bids.

I wasn't implying the ASC and SCIAC wouldn't be in the Pool C race, merely listing a couple of conference races that have the potential of getting really crazy down the stretch. The MIAC could be included in this list as well.
Please understand, as the poster from the southwestern realm of D3, I wanted to bring those conferences to the discussion.

I also think that the NJAC, the MIAC and the E8 are on the short list for Pool C.

By that I mean that those conferences should have 2 teams in the Regional Rankings, from which Pool C is taken.

Totally agree. I think the playoff discussion could be even more fun than usual this year!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 08, 2011, 11:50:02 pm
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good. I guess he also played both ways and had an INT of defense.

I know what you meant Hazz. Sometimes those WIACers are a little slow on such things. They're good guys, but think they know a little more than you. All because UWW starts winning. Don't take it personally. And by the way, by take, I don't mean "steal" or "pilfer." ;D

Nice! Made me laugh and got me out of my cranky mood. Didn't hurt that Nebraska remembered how to play football in the second half either. Which might also explain why I was so sensitive with BoBo to start with, since they looked like a flag football team in the first half when I was responding to him
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 08, 2011, 11:50:51 pm
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good. I guess he also played both ways and had an INT of defense.

I know what you meant Hazz. Sometimes those WIACers are a little slow on such things. They're good guys, but think they know a little more than you. All because UWW starts winning. Don't take it personally. And by the way, by take, I don't mean "steal" or "pilfer." ;D

You guys are works of art. I know exactly what hazzben was trying to say, retagent. Once again, it had nothing to do with you - but once again you're johnny on the spot (no pun intended). Fact remains, with little Z, I was just trying to point out that he's been doing this for A LONG TIME, his entire career...a torid pace would indicate a period of time that included a few games. Didn't know if you were as familiar with his River Falls period in the distant past as you seem to be with the present at UD. Questioning my post as condescending is like the pot calling the kettle black, however.  And I will not stand for it!! >:(

(no I'm not really mad, that's just in response to the pathetic  "Yeesh!")
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 09, 2011, 12:05:58 am
Can't we all just get along? Pert near every conference is a mess right now. There could realistically be a two-loss "C".
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 09, 2011, 12:13:41 am
Can't we all just get along? Pert near every conference is a mess right now. There could realistically be a two-loss "C".
And a "B" getting a "C"
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 09, 2011, 12:16:58 am
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good. I guess he also played both ways and had an INT of defense.

I know what you meant Hazz. Sometimes those WIACers are a little slow on such things. They're good guys, but think they know a little more than you. All because UWW starts winning. Don't take it personally. And by the way, by take, I don't mean "steal" or "pilfer." ;D

You guys are works of art. I know exactly what hazzben was trying to say, retagent. Once again, it had nothing to do with you - but once again you're johnny on the spot (no pun intended). Fact remains, with little Z, I was just trying to point out that he's been doing this for A LONG TIME, his entire career...a torid pace would indicate a period of time that included a few games. Didn't know if you were as familiar with his River Falls period in the distant past as you seem to be with the present at UD. Questioning my post as condescending is like the pot calling the kettle black, however.  And I will not stand for it!! >:(

(no I'm not really mad, that's just in response to the pathetic  "Yeesh!")

You are correct, I condescended to your condescension. Guilty as charged  ;D 8-)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BoBo on October 09, 2011, 12:22:09 am
Zweifel's numbers are just mind boggling. 18 receptions for 259 and 2 TD's. He is just on an absolutely torrid pace. And their RB Spaulding rushed for almost 200 yds and 2 TD's himself.

 ???
I've learned from watching football that a RB doesn't rush for almost 200 yards or score 2 TD's by themselves. It takes at least 10 other guys on offense doing their jobs, as well. Plus Zweifel's career is full of games like this, first at River Falls and now at UD. I, for one, have come to expect games like this from him (and not because the kid's from Whitewater!) - he's good. I guess he also played both ways and had an INT of defense.

I know what you meant Hazz. Sometimes those WIACers are a little slow on such things. They're good guys, but think they know a little more than you. All because UWW starts winning. Don't take it personally. And by the way, by take, I don't mean "steal" or "pilfer." ;D

You guys are works of art. I know exactly what hazzben was trying to say, retagent. Once again, it had nothing to do with you - but once again you're johnny on the spot (no pun intended). Fact remains, with little Z, I was just trying to point out that he's been doing this for A LONG TIME, his entire career...a torid pace would indicate a period of time that included a few games. Didn't know if you were as familiar with his River Falls period in the distant past as you seem to be with the present at UD. Questioning my post as condescending is like the pot calling the kettle black, however.  And I will not stand for it!! >:(

(no I'm not really mad, that's just in response to the pathetic  "Yeesh!")

You are correct, I condescended to your condescension. Guilty as charged  ;D 8-)

(http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp31/Yanglow/Gif/beer.gif?t=1317384234)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: retagent on October 09, 2011, 09:00:02 am
You know me too well BoBo.

It takes a while, but getting the spirit in which these little back-and-forth things are done is half the fun. Sometimes it does involve understanding each other. +k to you both for "getting it."
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 09, 2011, 09:57:23 am
Mine's in, and the bottom of mine are full of teams I'd never have considered before the season.

And I had to leave off a couple of teams worthy of mention.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 09, 2011, 12:47:24 pm
Mine is in.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 10, 2011, 09:08:25 am
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion.

Two 8-2 OAC Pool C teams have made the playoffs in recent years:

In 2007 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and lost to UWW in the first round.

In 2005 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and ended up beating North Central and Wabash, before losing to Mount Union.  Mount Union was 9-1 regular season (lost to ONU), made the playoffs and beat UWW in the Championship that year.  ONU ended up 7-2, losing to John Carroll and Capital, and missed the playoffs after beating Mount Union.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 10, 2011, 10:33:36 am
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion.

Two 8-2 OAC Pool C teams have made the playoffs in recent years:

In 2007 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and lost to UWW in the first round.

In 2005 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and ended up beating North Central and Wabash, before losing to Mount Union.  Mount Union was 9-1 regular season (lost to ONU), made the playoffs and beat UWW in the Championship that year.  ONU ended up 7-2, losing to John Carroll and Capital, and missed the playoffs after beating Mount Union.

You HAD to bring up 2005. That was THE year that the Purple Raiders could have come to Crawfordsville. Sigh...

 :(
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: BashDad on October 10, 2011, 11:31:20 am
Triple sigh.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mugsy on October 10, 2011, 01:52:31 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion.

Two 8-2 OAC Pool C teams have made the playoffs in recent years:

In 2007 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and lost to UWW in the first round.

In 2005 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and ended up beating North Central and Wabash, before losing to Mount Union.  Mount Union was 9-1 regular season (lost to ONU), made the playoffs and beat UWW in the Championship that year.  ONU ended up 7-2, losing to John Carroll and Capital, and missed the playoffs after beating Mount Union.

In 2008, very few people expected Wheaton to get a pool C nod at 8-2, many were shocked (and a bit angry).

As the last team into the field of 32, Wheaton went onto the semi-finals before their nearly annual exit from the playoffs at the hands of Mount Union.

1st Round: Wheaton def. Trine 14-0
2nd Round: Wheaton def. Wabash 59-28
Quarter Finals: Wheaton def. Franklin 45-28
Semi Finals: Mount Union def. Wheaton 45-24
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 10, 2011, 04:24:31 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion.

Two 8-2 OAC Pool C teams have made the playoffs in recent years:

In 2007 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and lost to UWW in the first round.

In 2005 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and ended up beating North Central and Wabash, before losing to Mount Union.  Mount Union was 9-1 regular season (lost to ONU), made the playoffs and beat UWW in the Championship that year.  ONU ended up 7-2, losing to John Carroll and Capital, and missed the playoffs after beating Mount Union.

In 2008, very few people expected Wheaton to get a pool C nod at 8-2, many were shocked (and a bit angry).

As the last team into the field of 32, Wheaton went onto the semi-finals before their nearly annual exit from the playoffs at the hands of Mount Union.

1st Round: Wheaton def. Trine 14-0
2nd Round: Wheaton def. Wabash 59-28
Quarter Finals: Wheaton def. Franklin 45-28
Semi Finals: Mount Union def. Wheaton 45-24

I hear all of that. I just think there are probably going to be some very quality 8-2 teams at seasons end and an OAC 8-2 might not be the one (if any even do) to get the nod.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 10, 2011, 04:42:08 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Mugsy on October 10, 2011, 04:43:26 pm
Muskingum loses, see this is why most of us did not rank them.  :P

What is interesting here is that unless Mount gets upset by someone, the OAC's 2nd place team will be no better than 8-2. Makes things a little more interesting for the Pool C discussion.

Two 8-2 OAC Pool C teams have made the playoffs in recent years:

In 2007 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and lost to UWW in the first round.

In 2005 an 8-2 Capital Team made the playoffs and ended up beating North Central and Wabash, before losing to Mount Union.  Mount Union was 9-1 regular season (lost to ONU), made the playoffs and beat UWW in the Championship that year.  ONU ended up 7-2, losing to John Carroll and Capital, and missed the playoffs after beating Mount Union.

In 2008, very few people expected Wheaton to get a pool C nod at 8-2, many were shocked (and a bit angry).

As the last team into the field of 32, Wheaton went onto the semi-finals before their nearly annual exit from the playoffs at the hands of Mount Union.

1st Round: Wheaton def. Trine 14-0
2nd Round: Wheaton def. Wabash 59-28
Quarter Finals: Wheaton def. Franklin 45-28
Semi Finals: Mount Union def. Wheaton 45-24

I hear all of that. I just think there are probably going to be some very quality 8-2 teams at seasons end and an OAC 8-2 might not be the one (if any even do) to get the nod.

Yup.  I know you're reply wasn't necessarily directed at me, I was giving another example of an 8-2 team to make it into the playoffs as a Pool C and do quite well.

For what it's worth, almost every year one could make a case for 8-2 teams that if in the playoffs would contend quite well, if not win a game or two.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Teamski on October 10, 2011, 05:35:18 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Teamski on October 10, 2011, 05:41:00 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 10, 2011, 06:11:27 pm
For what it's worth, almost every year one could make a case for 8-2 teams that if in the playoffs would contend quite well, if not win a game or two.

This is especially true considering the variation in quality between conferences.  I'd even guess that some 6-4 teams from the strongest conferences (WIAC, CCIW, OAC) could win a few playoff games with the right matchup.

With that said, I strongly believe that all conference champions deserve a playoff spot regardless of the relative "quality" of the conference (and the same goes for undefeated Pool B teams).  If you don't like it...then win your conference!
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 10, 2011, 07:42:24 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

I won't pretend to know the exact reasons Oshkosh scheduled Mt, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was somewhat analagous to me believing it would be good for my 12 year old daughter to play on the 14 year old volleyball team if she can make it (and importantly, it's what she wants).  She will get better playing better competition.   

If Oshkosh were to go 8-2,  losing only to Mt and UWW, it would be a travisty in my opinion if the committee did not select them.  I know that means some other team has to lose out, but...
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 10, 2011, 07:44:15 pm
The loss to Mount is not "in-region" for UW-O.  It doesn't hurt them as much.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 10, 2011, 07:53:58 pm
An 8-2 Oshkosh would definitely be in consideration. Of course, that all depends on the other West Region shenanigans for their regional rankings. There's a chance they may not get 'to the table' at 8-2.

I think from 15-35 it's all a toss of the coin anyway.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 10, 2011, 07:55:55 pm
An 8-2 Oshkosh would definitely be in consideration. Of course, that all depends on the other West Region shenanigans for their regional rankings. There's a chance they may not get 'to the table' at 8-2.

I think from 15-35 it's all a toss of the coin anyway.
More accurately, UW-O would be West Region 8-1.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Teamski on October 11, 2011, 12:18:46 am
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

 

Hehehe..... I lost two Karma on this posting....anyways, all of the teams in WIAC play eachother, so if Oshkosh did finish 8-2, it would be in consideration for a pool C bid anyways. 

-Ski
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 11, 2011, 12:20:31 am
An 8-2 Oshkosh would definitely be in consideration. Of course, that all depends on the other West Region shenanigans for their regional rankings. There's a chance they may not get 'to the table' at 8-2.

I think from 15-35 it's all a toss of the coin anyway.
More accurately, UW-O would be West Region 8-1.

Right of course...but still it all depends on the regional rankings.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: hazzben on October 11, 2011, 10:08:54 am
An 8-2 Oshkosh would definitely be in consideration. Of course, that all depends on the other West Region shenanigans for their regional rankings. There's a chance they may not get 'to the table' at 8-2.

I think from 15-35 it's all a toss of the coin anyway.
More accurately, UW-O would be West Region 8-1.

Right of course...but still it all depends on the regional rankings.

I think the thing that probably hurts UWO in the regional conference calls will be the question of 'who have they beaten'. Granted the WIAC is a weekly grind. But a big criteria they look at in those calls is success against regionally ranked opponents. If UWEC drops a game to anyone other than UWW they'll definitely be out of the rankings. But even just a loss to UWW likely will push UWEC out of the regional top 10. This weakens, justly or not, UWO's consideration given they'll only be able to say, but we only lost to UWW and UMU. To which members of the committee will say, yeah, but who have you beaten?

Redlands and potentially a couple of MIAC and IIAC schools will be able to point to victories against regionally ranked teams.

UWO will definitely be in the discussion, the strength of their position is just unclear until the remaining weeks have played out. If there's a shortage of 1 loss Pool C candidates, their potential to get in will be strong. If there's a bevy of 1 loss teams out there, they'll have to hope most of them come from weak conferences and have very poor SOS numbers.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2011, 11:06:00 am
An 8-2 Oshkosh would definitely be in consideration. Of course, that all depends on the other West Region shenanigans for their regional rankings. There's a chance they may not get 'to the table' at 8-2.

I think from 15-35 it's all a toss of the coin anyway.
More accurately, UW-O would be West Region 8-1.

I think that in football, it's a mistake to think they stick solely to the primary criteria.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2011, 11:11:11 am
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

 

Hehehe..... I lost two Karma on this posting....anyways, all of the teams in WIAC play eachother, so if Oshkosh did finish 8-2, it would be in consideration for a pool C bid anyways. 

-Ski

There are a couple of curmudgeonly UWW fans who will smite any Wesley poster. Sorry for their lack of maturity. You'd think going 3-0 in the semifinals against Wesley would be enough satisfaction without anonymous smiting on top of it.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 11, 2011, 12:44:47 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

 

Hehehe..... I lost two Karma on this posting....anyways, all of the teams in WIAC play eachother, so if Oshkosh did finish 8-2, it would be in consideration for a pool C bid anyways. 

-Ski

There are a couple of curmudgeonly UWW fans who will smite any Wesley poster. Sorry for their lack of maturity. You'd think going 3-0 in the semifinals against Wesley would be enough satisfaction without anonymous smiting on top of it.

I still would like to know what he meant by round robin.  I can be real slow on the uptake with hidden meaning.   
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: 02 Warhawk on October 11, 2011, 01:03:35 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

 

Hehehe..... I lost two Karma on this posting....anyways, all of the teams in WIAC play eachother, so if Oshkosh did finish 8-2, it would be in consideration for a pool C bid anyways. 

-Ski

There are a couple of curmudgeonly UWW fans who will smite any Wesley poster. Sorry for their lack of maturity. You'd think going 3-0 in the semifinals against Wesley would be enough satisfaction without anonymous smiting on top of it.

You would think the Wesley coaching staff would have been a little less spiteful in their loss.

FYI...I wasn't the "curmudgeonly" fan who did the smiting. But I can think of a few usual suspects  :)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: bleedpurple on October 11, 2011, 03:37:22 pm
D3 TOP 25 FAN POLL:  WEEK 7

1.  Wisconsin-Whitewater (16)          400      1(LW)
2.  Mount Union                                383       2
3.  St. Thomas                                  363      3
4.  Mary Hardin-Baylor                      346      4
5.  Linfield                                        344      5
6.  North Central                              306       6
7.  Wesley                                        292      7
8.  Thomas More                              262       8
9.  Montclair St.                               259       9
10.  Wabash                                    230      10
11. (t) Bethel                                  215      12
11.(t)  Kean                                    215      13
13.  California Lutheran                   174      15
14.  Illinois Wesleyan                      170      18
15.  Delaware Valley                       164      17
16.  Wheaton                                  163      14
17.  Wartburg                                 145      19
18.  Salisbury                                 123      21
19   Redlands                                 116      20
20.  Wisconsin-Oshkosh                   93      22
21.  Johns Hopkins                           63      24
22.  Cortland State                           59      16
23.  Franklin                                     45      unranked
24.  Louisiana College                       35      unranked
25.  Adrian                                       33      25

Dropped Out of Top 25: Wittenberg, Dubuque

Also Receiving Votes: Alfred (23), Birmingham-Southern (22), Wittenberg (19), McMurry (15), UW-Platteville (15), Dubuque (14), Centre (13), St. Olaf (12), Hampden-Sydney (11) Hobart (11), Ohio Northern (10), Wisconsin-Eau Claire (9), Trinity (7), Washington and Lee (7), Monmouth (6), St. John Fisher (5), Huntingdon (3).
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2011, 03:42:33 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

 

Hehehe..... I lost two Karma on this posting....anyways, all of the teams in WIAC play eachother, so if Oshkosh did finish 8-2, it would be in consideration for a pool C bid anyways. 

-Ski

There are a couple of curmudgeonly UWW fans who will smite any Wesley poster. Sorry for their lack of maturity. You'd think going 3-0 in the semifinals against Wesley would be enough satisfaction without anonymous smiting on top of it.

I still would like to know what he meant by round robin.  I can be real slow on the uptake with hidden meaning.
"Round robin" menas that every team plays every other team in the conference to determine the conference championship.

The NCAC only plays 6 of a possible 8 conference games.

In the early part of the last decade, the 11-team Middle Atlantic Conference did not play a complete conference schedule.

The Big Ten (or "XI" or "12") did not play a full "round robin" football conference schedule, before they broke into divisions.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 11, 2011, 04:24:38 pm
Actually, the Big 10 did play round-robins for a few years. (1982-84).

The NCAC is going for a full-round robin in 2013 after the UAA agreement is finished and a year after DPU joins.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: emma17 on October 11, 2011, 04:51:16 pm
Round robin" menas that every team plays every other team in the conference to determine the conference championship.

Thanks Ralph.  For whatever reason, I've have always thought of the term "round robin" as a "tournament" phrase-I guess I can't smite Teamski for that.   
I won't smite him for the "self-induced a$$ whooping" comment either- I'll just credit Oshkosh for having giant kohones.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 11, 2011, 04:56:31 pm
I'm pulling for Oshkosh to finish 8-2 this season, with their only losses coming to Mount and UWW. It will be tough leaving them out of the playoffs, if that ends up happening.

If I was an Oshkosh fan, I'm hoping Central wins out to improve the Titans' regional SOS.

My question is this:  Why would any coach in the WIAC schedule MU in the first place with the obvious exception of UWW?  That is a self-induced a$$ whopping and a great way to lose a Pool C bid.  I don't understand it unless he wanted a shot at the target on the backs of the jerseys..... ::)

-Ski

Never mind, I noticed that the WIAC does a round-robin, so it doesn't matter in the end.   ::)

-Ski

Ski, when you say round-robin- do you mean automatic qualifier for conference champ?

 

Hehehe..... I lost two Karma on this posting....anyways, all of the teams in WIAC play eachother, so if Oshkosh did finish 8-2, it would be in consideration for a pool C bid anyways. 

-Ski

There are a couple of curmudgeonly UWW fans who will smite any Wesley poster. Sorry for their lack of maturity. You'd think going 3-0 in the semifinals against Wesley would be enough satisfaction without anonymous smiting on top of it.

You would think the Wesley coaching staff would have been a little less spiteful in their loss.

FYI...I wasn't the "curmudgeonly" fan who did the smiting. But I can think of a few usual suspects  :)

Uncurmdgeonly fans can smite too.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2011, 07:33:58 pm
Round robin" menas that every team plays every other team in the conference to determine the conference championship.

Thanks Ralph.  For whatever reason, I've have always thought of the term "round robin" as a "tournament" phrase-I guess I can't smite Teamski for that.   
I won't smite him for the "self-induced a$$ whooping" comment either- I'll just credit Oshkosh for having giant kohones.
Uh-oh, my keyboard dyslexia struck again!  (Is that a "dystypia"?)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: smedindy on October 11, 2011, 08:23:44 pm
Round robin" menas that every team plays every other team in the conference to determine the conference championship.

Thanks Ralph.  For whatever reason, I've have always thought of the term "round robin" as a "tournament" phrase-I guess I can't smite Teamski for that.   
I won't smite him for the "self-induced a$$ whooping" comment either- I'll just credit Oshkosh for having giant kohones.

There are round-robin tournaments of course. Many times, the Olympics had round-robin tournaments that determined the champion in various sports (and still, they split into groups that do round-robin before having a single elimination final 8). In the World Cup, South America always plays a double round-robin to determine their qualifiers.
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: sflzman on October 11, 2011, 09:07:47 pm
Round robin" menas that every team plays every other team in the conference to determine the conference championship.

Thanks Ralph.  For whatever reason, I've have always thought of the term "round robin" as a "tournament" phrase-I guess I can't smite Teamski for that.   
I won't smite him for the "self-induced a$$ whooping" comment either- I'll just credit Oshkosh for having giant kohones.
Uh-oh, my keyboard dyslexia struck again!  (Is that a "dystypia"?)

Dystypia --

(n) A condition where a person is unable to type, usually caused by fatigue, injury, distraction, and more often than not.. stupidity


Hmm depends on what your circumstances were there  ;)

Hopefully it is not the latter of the reasons in the definition ;D
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2011, 09:18:06 pm
Round robin" menas that every team plays every other team in the conference to determine the conference championship.

Thanks Ralph.  For whatever reason, I've have always thought of the term "round robin" as a "tournament" phrase-I guess I can't smite Teamski for that.   
I won't smite him for the "self-induced a$$ whooping" comment either- I'll just credit Oshkosh for having giant kohones.
Uh-oh, my keyboard dyslexia struck again!  (Is that a "dystypia"?)

Dystypia --

(n) A condition where a person is unable to type, usually caused by fatigue, injury, distraction, and more often than not.. stupidity


Hmm depends on what your circumstances were there  ;)
Well, I was sober.  ;)
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 11, 2011, 10:39:15 pm
PubMed gives a citation for dystypia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21959361..

I don't think that I have a left frontal subcortical (brain) infract.   :-\
Title: Re: D3 Top 25 Fan Poll
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on October 14, 2011, 01:11:45 pm
I just noticed something (both in the D3 Top 25 and the Fan Poll) and I have a question.

Who are all the stooges voting Bethel in the Top 10 and leaving St. Olaf off of their ballot entirely?  (Yes, I know that the cumulative ranking does not reflect ALL voters' beliefs, but for the rankings to fall where they are obviously Bethel must be ranked in the Top 10 by SOME people, and St. Olaf must be left off the ballot by SOME people)

St. Olaf and Bethel are both 4-1.
St. Olaf beat Bethel.  On the road.

This falls into the "when considering two teams with equal resumes, shouldn't the head-to-head team be ranked higher?" category for me.  If St. Olaf had a lesser record, or had lost to a lesser opponent, I would understand it, but the Oles'