WBB: American Southwest Conference

Started by Pat Coleman, March 17, 2005, 02:27:01 AM

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McM Blue Devil

Please HPU fans do not take this the wrong way.  I do have all the respect in the world for Coach Kielsmeier and the HPU program.  However I hope all fans realize that there is only one "Coach K". The original and only Coach K resides in Durham, NC.  If Coach Kielsmeier can reach 10 final fours and win 3  national titles then maybe we can call him by that name.  Until then I propose that he goes by his full name or Coach K II.

Thanks  ;)

dballa

I think it's funny you're comparing a coach who hasn't even coached 10 yrs to a coach who has coached over 30 yrs. 

Just for the fun of it let's compare records for the first few years.

At Army older Coach K was 73-59 in the 70's.

At Duke through his first 5 season he was 85-65.


HPU's Coach K through his first 5 seasons was 94-37 in less games.

Give the man time, after all I don't think Duke's Coach K has the copyright on the name :)

dballa

I just read on the HPU website the game tonight against Dallas Christian has been postponed.

McM Blue Devil

I knew I would rile up some HPU fans. I was serious about what I posted but much of it was tongue in cheek.  However dballa, it is crazy to compare the first years of their respective careers.  Even when the "real" Coach K was at Army, I believe his competition was a bit stiffer.  Then it is even crazier to compare Coach Kielsmeier's record with Coach K's record his first five years at Duke.  Especially when you consider Duke was playing against teams like unc who had some guy name Jordan on their team and NC State who won a national title.

My point is this, you can't compare the two, but when I hear the phrase "Coach K" there is only one person that comes to mind.

dballa

I know the two are completely different, there's a huge gap between major DI schools and anybody below.  But you were talking about accomplishments and accolades that were not won and earned until later in his career.

At the DIII level HPU has played against ranked opponents and against two national players of the year.

At the DIII level playing against ranked teams and players of that caliber is equal to that of a DI playing against the same.

You look at Mount Union in football, do you think they could hang with USC, UT, LSU and those guys? I doubt it but look at what they've done on their level.  I would say that rivals any accomplishments any DI school has done at the DI level.

BBenthusiast

McM Blue Devil I have to confess that I too thought there was only one Coach K and he is (of course) in Brownwood.  With no disrepect to your Coach K, I think you might be a little bit sensitive. We are a long way from North Carolina down here in Texas.  I understand that we updated the coliseum and everyone now realizes that the lady jackets are for real (remember all the doubters last season?) but I think if you keep looking you will probably come up with something reasonable to be critical over. 

Ralph Turner

#2721
Doubters?  There were no doubters last season!  We knew HPU was good.  We had seen several ASC teams in the playoffs over the last decade.  (I will post my thoughts on the Best ASC teams later on this season.) 

More realistically, HPU was the #1 seed in the Women's tourney!  They were the only team to get a bye in the 63-team field.

#2 HPU was defeated on a neutral floor by an unranked team that had a record vs. D-3 teams of 22-6 last year.  The stat sheet shows that UPS held the Lady Jackets to one fast break bucket for the entire game.  Those taller, slower players were able to match HPU's speed and quickness by solid fundamental defense!  That 22-6 D-3 record tells me that there are more competitive conferences around the country than the "ASC Big 4" and the rest of the ASC.

After listening to the McMurry (Round #1) game versus UPS, the UPS versus George Fox and then the HPU Sweet 16 game vs. UPS, I came away from the playoffs with a much more subdued impression of ASC Women's basketball.  I now believe that HSU was very lucky to get to the Final Four (Cinderella?), and very lucky to play within 10 points in both of their games.

I think that we have much more to prove on a national level.  I believe that the Chapman and Redlands wins are valuable for the sake of the NCAA's.  I think that HPU has a great chance to be seeded highly in the 2008 tourney.  However, I think that we do not match well with the taller, larger teams from the Northwest (West Region), Midwest (Central Region) and Great Lakes Region teams.

We ASC fans need to be very careful in our assessments of our teams.  We have one school that has won a Sweet 16 game...HSU beat McMurry in 2000, the 2004 HSU team that romped thru the South Region until losing in the Elite 8 at UW-SP in 2004 and the HSU team in 2006 that beat Pac Luth in OT in the Sweet 16 and the ODAC winner, Randolph-Macon, as they made the Final Four.



Three posts down, our friend, hsusid, has a very detailed and authoritative post on his experience/impressions at the NCAA's.  It makes excellent reading and gives much "food-for- thought" as we try to "break out" as a conference.
+1  :)

fanstand

Ralph, I believe that the year HSU went to the Final Four, we (ASC) had 3 really strong teams.  I think LIB was really the best team that year, but the conference tournament in Mississippi was very draining on that team. They played 3 games and then returned home on Monday, only to learn they would have to play HSU or HPU in another tourney.  I think those 3 teams were very good that year.  HSU got a second chance and really capitalized on it.  The lack of Div II colleges in the north and east really helps them recruit some of the "big" girls, that don't go DI. Some of our better players around the Big Country get scholarships to DII schools in Texas.

calhsu

Yes there were doubters last year.  I was one.  I was wrong in my first challange and right on in my second.  When I looked at last years regular season schedule I couldn't believe that HPU would get through HSU and MCM in two weeks back to back.  I was wrong they cut through the ASC like a hot knife through  butter.
I wondered how well they would do in the big dance, and well, we all know how well that went.  No disrespect but they have that hurdule to jump over to be a national respected team. And I am not suggesting they don't deserve the high ranking now.  Polls make you feel great about your team, enjoy it while you can.  It took years of HSU of going to the tourney, winning a game or two.  Then with a team that didn't gel till they thought they were gone, they go to the final four.
There are two seasons.  Regular season and post season.  HPU has been the undisputed champ for a couple of years of the regular season.  They are the team to beat.  The ASC seems as it has been for years now, three teams and the rest. (MHB has been on the bubble)   
I have no feel for this HSU team.  They should be a winning team but can't tell yet more than that.  Saturday will give us some more clue if the new faces are for real.  If MCM wins as they have for the last several years in the December game I still will not know much.  I have noticede that HSU coach brings here team together slowly.  (knowing it is the last games you play that mean something)  If HSU was to win Saturday then you have a more interesting ASC this year.   

hsusid

I know this may be taboo on this board  :-\, but I am going to disagree with Ralph Turner on this issue.

I don't know what taller players have had to do with the ASC teams losing. I have seen every HSU playoff game since the 2000 season and there is no doubt that the ASC plays just as good of a brand of basketball as anyone. I am going to go year-by-year and show that it was not big girls that eliminated the ASC teams, but rather more versatile guards that go hit the 15-foot pull up.

2000 - HSU lost to St. Thomas, I think a lot of that was legs from playing a draining game the night before against McMurry and St. Thomas had an easier time. HSU also had lost two starters at the end of the regular season and in the conference playoffs. They had a young team other than Otwell and McClure. St Thomas was a little bigger, but it was not a significant factor that night.

2001- HSU lost to Baldwin-Wallace in the Sweet 16. B-W was not a big team at all, they played basically with five players that could do a lot of things, like put it on the floor and get to the hole. All five of their starters shot a 3-pointer in the game.  HSU outrebounded them 41-31 in the game, but went 13-for-27 at the free throw line.

2002 - HSU bowed out in the Sweet 16 again, this time to DePauw. I am pretty sure DePauw was the better team that year, but that was just one of those games (much like the HPU loss last year) where the Cowgirls could not buy a shot and DePauw made nearly everything they shot (67 percent). It was not the post game once again it was the mid range pull up game that we could not defend in that game. Players that can shoot it and put it on the hole has been the problem in the past.

2003 - This was the biggest heartbreak. HSU was the best team in the country that year with the best player. They just picked the wrong game to play their worst 10 minutes of the year. They were down 18-2 to Trinity. The Cowgirls came back and eventually took a brief 1-point lead and the game was tied again with a minute to play. They just could not finish. Trinity went on to win the national title. They had no advantage in the post in that game - in fact our 5-9 post player had 33 points and 11 rebounds. It was there ability to break down the defense and hit 12-15 foot jumpers all night.

2004 - The Cowgirls lost to Stevens Point with the game tied inside a minute. Once again they had a versatile team that could score inside and out. They ran a three-guard lineup and their All-American Amanda Nechuta was four that played inside and out. Their post player had 10 points and five rebounds.

2005 - HSU did not make the playoffs, but HPU lost to Trinity. Again Trinity had a decent post player in Rhode, but so did HPU in Blaylock. They are about the same size. That game was not about height.

2006 - The Cowgirls obviously did not have a lot of height in the Final Four run.  However, in the six games the best post player we saw was Richardson (who did not have a good game against HSU). Pacific Lutheran was a little bigger and their post player had 22 and 11, but they could not score on our guards. Randolph-Macon was gigantic and the Cowgirls rolled them by 16 points. That Final Four was the same way. Southern Maine's Marble and Myles both had double-doubles, but it came off their versatility. Both hit 3-pointers in the game.  Scranton got four points out of its starting two post players. They got 19 out of Mellody who was a swing player that score inside and out.

2007 - I am not going to pretend to know what happened, but I think HPU just had a miserable shooting night. They were a very good team that had the elements to go far. I was not as surprised that McMurry lost early because they were more one dimensional. Tuttle was a great distributor, but not much of a scorer and if you could neutralize Sawyer and Richardson you had the advantage. They didn't have the elements of teams I have seen go deep in the playoffs.


IMHO, here is a list of what it takes to win on the national level in women's hoops.

You have to have versatile players that can do more than one thing (players that can get into the paint and either distribute or score are at a premium). I think in Texas we see too many players that are one dimensional - they are shooters or slashers but not both.

You have to be able to control the boards, but that does not have to be with just your post players. You need 2's and 3's that can get the tough rebounds as well.

I think if you are just a back to the basket post, that is easy for a good team to defend. But if you can face up and put the ball on the deck and get to the hole or hit a 12 foot jumper that is the type of post player that will dominate. If they can step out even further and be a threat by pulling a post player from the basket that is even better.

You have to have the ability to go on runs. That includes not only scoring, but the ability to string four or five stops in a row together.

You need one thing that the teams you will play will not have. I think HSU's Final Four run team had a 5-10 player that played on the perimeter and could guard anyone. She frustrated the consensus National Player of the Year into 7-of-23 shooting. We did not see another player like that. The six players she guarded went 1-10 (Sawyer), 9-28 (Daniels), 2-14 (Johnson), 7-23 (Silve), 4-11 (Sibbey) and 4-17 (Matt) 

I also think that in that run they had three very versatile players that could do a lot of things well. Dennard and Hodges could score inside and out, Cisneroz could drive to the hole or shoot a 3. Rachael Singletary played a big role as well because of her versatility. You will see more teams with three or four versatile players in the Final Four than you will see with big, thick players that can't move.

So are there better conferences, I am sure top to bottom there are. There are not many with a top end like what we have. There is little doubt McMurry, HSU and HPU in the right circumstances play with about anyone in the country.

These are only opinions that I have formulated from watching a lot of playoff games in the past and seeing some very good teams. Even teams in games opposite of ours in these tournaments.

The only time we were ever dominated was against DePauw and I count that as one of those games. Teams don't shoot 67 percent every night. Every other game we have been in. I don't think that means we are that far away as a conference. The top end is just as good as other teams around the nation. It just takes a good run and a little bit of luck in your draw in getting teams that your strengths and weakness are a match.





inthepaint

I have to disagree with the HSUSID on this one.  The national tournament losses that I have witnessed were at the hands of bigger, stronger, quicker girls at virtually every position, but especially "in the paint." 

Rick Akins

WOW--great and incredibly thorough  historical analysis by hsusid.  I  was at the HPU/UPS Sweet 16 game in Iowa last March and have not said a word about that game until now. I was too depressed and stunned to say anything.  I LOVED our HPU team last year and was literally in shock after that game.  The UPS team was certainly pretty good--aren't they all by that time, at least in basketball--but our girls could never get untracked in any respect in that game.

Certainly poor shooting and good defense may have had something to do with it,  but it was much much more than that.  We could never get going at all in any way in that game.  I think playing at such a high level both athletically and emotionally--especially over the last month of the season--finally caught up with them. That may sound silly or foolish (it was the SWEET 16!!),  but in sports there is a fine line between success and failure--especially at the highest levels of competition.

IMHO, quality but draining competition, especially with MCM and HSU over and over in the regular season,  and also while winning the conference tourney at home with big crowds against top teams (again!), THEN THE RECORD CROWD AND BIG WIN AGAINST CHAPMAN, with the bye, and then a long trip to Luther  all combined together just did them in.  That is the only explanation I have--otherwise it was just inexplicable.  When HPU struggled mightily in the first half but somehow pulled ahead at the half, I was sure things would then be different.  The second half was even tougher to watch.  All our players all tried so hard but every move, every shot, was just a step behind, a little off, and we certainly did not get any calls on contested shots inside in that second half.

Why did HPU lose in Iowa?  I have made my feeble attempt to explain or understand above, but I do not believe it was because of some inherently superior play in any aspect by UPS.  I would put the 06-07 Lady Jackets up against any of the 3 other teams in that region on any night but that one and expect or at least not be surprised by a win. My hope is that HPU  will get a chance to have a different result this year, although I know a lot of basketball must be played before that could  happen, and every team and every year is unique.

hsusid

I could certainly see where I could be wrong on this, but I gave year-by-year details on why it is not true. I would like to see something other than a generalization before I change my mind.

McMurry lost to HSU in 2000, HSU was not bigger, stronger and quicker at every position.
McMurry lost to HSU in 2006, HSU was not bigger, stronger and quicker at every position.
Howard Payne lost to HSU in 2006, HSU was not bigger, stronger and quicker at every position.

The only other teams that have lost a game in the postseason were McMurry and Howard Payne last year and HPU in 2005. I saw HPU five times that season and I also Trinity. Trinity was not bigger, stronger and quicker at every position.

Last year HPU and McMurry lost to the same team. In the McMurry loss they had 31 points and 12 rebounds from their starters in the post. UPS had 12 and 14. I would not call that domination.

In the Howard Payne loss Blaylock had 16 and was the top scorer on the floor.

I think even if McMurry or HPU were beaten by a bigger, stronger and quicker team in UPS that is one team out of all of the years.

That is definitely not a trend it is an exception to the rule. We have been beaten by more versatile teams that can do more than one thing. In Texas we see a lot of one dimensional players. That is what the league on the whole has had a bigger time defending, rather than the bigger, stronger players.


dballa


fanstand

I am a firm believer in luck, intangibles, superstitions, and emotions. Sometimes the planets line up and sometimes they don't. Some days you're on, somedays you're not. The days someone is off, you hope others are able to pick up the slack. The best team on THAT day usually wins, not necessarily the best overall team.  It is frustrating as a fan when you know your team is better, but that's how it goes.  I've cried, cussed and fussed. I still back my team, will defend them to the end, and love em anyway! Fire up LIB, big game tomorrow......and I know you can win!!!!!That's what's great about being a FAN!!!!!!!