MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Smitty Oom on December 08, 2017, 08:41:27 PM
Quote from: bball1122 on December 08, 2017, 04:34:15 PM
Man, I thought I was sharing some interesting news involving a significant mid-season change in philosophy of one of the least interesting teams in the league for the last decade or so and was hoping to have some legitimate back and forth about it, but instead we've gotten into a pedantic debate over whether it should be called "The System" or Grinnell-like.   They are playing like Grinnell.  Maybe not exactly as Grinnell does, but in a similar fashion.  I watched the game.  I have seen Grinnell play. It's pretty damn close.  I figured that was the best comparison I could use.  Goodness.

To me its one in the same. Coaches can run swing offenses with different twists and what not, but in its most simple form it is "the swing." Same goes for this, Coach Whittle made a couple adjustments for his team and is employing "The System" in my eyes. Grinnell may have been first but doesn't mean other teams have to play up to their gold standard of up-tempo, maximizing possession, 3-point shooting offense.

The System is based on the Loyola Marymount teams of yesteryear... and I am not sure if Grinnell or Redlands made the first splash in DIII. Someone will let me know, I am sure.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

sac

Grinnell adopted its system in the early/mid 90's.  Arsenault's book was written in 1997.  He claims he invented it.


While similar, Paul Westhead's "The system" is not the same as Arsenault's "The System".  They both rely on heavy pressing and trapping but Arsenault put the stat goals and 5 man line changes into his system,.  Westhead wanted up tempo basketball and the philosophy of if you're open shoot it and wanted a shot up in 7 seconds.   He was a master at transition offense.  There isn't really anyone today that doesn't use something of Paul Westhead's in their transition offense. 

There's no doubt Arsenault either directly or indirectly took the basis of his system from what was in general a much higher tempo game in the early 90's.  But I've never seen him directly credit Westhead for the basis of his system.  But that doesn't mean it isn't or he hasn't.


I find Grinnell's system unique in its stat goals and substitution patterns.   







Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I never said Westfeld created it... I did say it was "based" on Loyola Marymount - as you said as well.

I do love how Arseneault says he invented it. I am being a little sarcastic. I know he may have put in different aspects that ended up becoming The System... but do we know of any other coach who is credited for inventing anything in this game besides the man who created the game itself? Maybe I am being naive, but coaches takes ideas from other coaches all of the time. To claim to flat out invent something when it clearly has aspects found in other programs seems a bit ... egotistical.

But again... maybe I don't realize that other coaches have invented things that are part of the game.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

sac

Matt Rogers who coached at Maryville and LaVerne wrote a blog about it 4 years ago.  He doesn't directly tie the two systems together (Loyola and Grinnell) but its a good read if you aren't really familiar with "system ball"

http://madcoachdiary.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-system.html

Drake Palmer

Post of the Week

Quote from: bball1122 on December 08, 2017, 04:34:15 PM
Man, I thought I was sharing some interesting news involving a significant mid-season change in philosophy of one of the least interesting teams in the league for the last decade or so and was hoping to have some legitimate back and forth about it, but instead we've gotten into a pedantic debate over whether it should be called "The System" or Grinnell-like.   They are playing like Grinnell.  Maybe not exactly as Grinnell does, but in a similar fashion.  I watched the game.  I have seen Grinnell play. It's pretty damn close.  I figured that was the best comparison I could use.  Goodness.



Nice job bb1122. +K.  You tried to share a nice insight into what the Scots were attempting to do and some how this conversation was hijacked into some dry, dusty, and arcane conversation about stats.

Like a great basketball coach once told me - "it aint about the Xs and Os, it's all about the Jimmys and Joes."  ;) ;D

Coach Whittle doesn't have enough firepower with his "Jimmys and Joe" so he's adapting.  Is it for one game, or for the season?  We'll find out more when the Carlies come up to St Paul to take on the Scots tomorrow afternoon.

Speaking of firepower, who's the most exciting player in the MIAC? Based on a very small sample size, and five minutes from the most recent Hamline UST game, I've gotta go with Jay "The Human Highlight Reel" Betts. A 5-11, 170, explosive, enerigizer bunny, with more moves than Shakira, and the hops of a kangaroo.

 

"If anything here offends, I beg your pardon. I come in peace, I depart in gratitude." ;)

GoldandBlueBU

Curious on everyone's "too early" reactions for the top of the heap in the MIAC as compared to the pre-season?
1. Saint John's (7)



T2. Bethel (2)


T2.St. Thomas (2)


4. Augsburg

T5. Carleton


T5. Hamline



SJU seems to be holding serve, UST probably significantly worse than tied for 2nd, BU probably more like 3 or 4...is Carleton a top 2?  Interested to see them against the other top schools to see how they hold up.

How much does Hamline's win over UST really mean?  Augsburg with a nice W over BU, but then drops a home game to Gustavus?

gordonmann

Great column this week that will likely be old news to MIAC aficionados, especially in Collegeville but was a big, "Wait, what?" for me...

http://d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-region/west/2017-18/sju-john-oliver

txg

Quote from: GoldandBlueBU on December 12, 2017, 12:38:22 PM
SJU seems to be holding serve, UST probably significantly worse than tied for 2nd, BU probably more like 3 or 4...is Carleton a top 2?  Interested to see them against the other top schools to see how they hold up.

I was surprised to see that Carleton lost at home Friday to an Eau Claire team that I watched St. Olaf defeat comfortably earlier this season.  Knights get Tommies and Johnnies back to back at home in early January.  Big games.

txg

Hamline knocks off Williams.  Tremendous result.

Also Macalester gives up 100 points in a half, which is tremendous in a different way.

Smitty Oom

Quote from: txg on December 30, 2017, 12:44:30 AM
Hamline knocks off Williams.  Tremendous result.

Also Macalester gives up 100 points in a half, which is tremendous in a different way.

Williams is a solid program, they are missing their best player due to an injury but still an amazing win for Hamline. Great job Pipers!

It is safe to say that MAC is still working out the kinks in their new System offense.

SUMMIT!!!!!

After suffering through one of the worst exhibits of basketball I've ever seen on Wednesday, I vow to not comment on Mac's "system",  other than to say it is really a shame that an amazingly talented player like Wyatt Ferm has to have his talent  wasted by such a travesty. Ferm is easily the best player in the MIAC this year and possibly one of the best all-around players in the conference in the past several years.

I ventured down to East Northfield this afternoon  for  a highly entertaining game between UST and CC. It had been 360 days since CC's last conference loss (a fact gleamed from the game notes-- good stuff), but all good streaks must end. Toms jumped to a quick 6-0 lead and ran it up to as big of a margin as 13 before the Knights, poised veterans that they are, chiseled that down to a 61-57 final. I enjoyed the battles in the paint between the phenomenal Kevin Grow & Erik Davis, who is emerging as a potential replacement to Grow as the MIAC' best big man. Great defensive play by both squads, a great all-around game out of Ryan Boll and a coaching chess match that was the polar opposite of Wednesday's farce in Leonard Center.  I for one am looking forward  to the rematch!
After the game, the king and pawn go into the same box.

Italian proverb

Smitty Oom

Quote from: miacmaniac on January 06, 2018, 06:44:33 PM
After suffering through one of the worst exhibits of basketball I've ever seen on Wednesday, I vow to not comment on Mac's "system",  other than to say it is really a shame that an amazingly talented player like Wyatt Ferm has to have his talent  wasted by such a travesty. Ferm is easily the best player in the MIAC this year and possibly one of the best all-around players in the conference in the past several years.



I respectfully disagree. I am sorry, Ferm is a very solid player but he is not the best player this year.

- Colin Olmsheid is an unbeilvable scorer and almost unguardable.
- Weiss is a solid defender/rebounder and a great post scorer with a good jumper.
- Stokman was second best player in the MIAC last year, behind All-American Grant Schaeffer. Tough start for him this year but still.
- Kevin Grow is the best defender this year with his superb rim protection and shot blocking. Good offensively as well and is a walking double-double.
- Ryan Boll has had some great games this year (see at Marietta), hasn't been too consistent but a very good player on both ends.

I think all those players would be considered better players than Ferm. There is also quite a long list of players who are about his skill level or better that I didn't name (Hanson, Alade, Troboxen, Sonie, Sharbano, etc). Heck I would say that Michael Gutierrez is a better basketball player than Ferm.

This probably takes away from your over arching point about the MAC "system" but when you say he is one of the best players in recent MIAC history and "EASILY" the best player this year I can't let that slide.

Smitty Oom

Couple things for an unlively board....

1. I really like Augsburg this year. They have a couple solid wins against Wart, Bethel and Loras. Home loss against GAC kinda hurts but they can make it up this week. At St. Thomas, then home vs. Johnnies on Wednesday and Bethel Saturday. They play wel this week we might have a Pool C contender in Minneapolis.

2. St. John's has been very solid this year. Only one slip up at LaCrosse for them, but otherwise they have one of the best point differentials in the nation. Massey Index also has them at number ONE in their ranks! Fun year brewing in Collegeville, with their best player from last year in a slump.

3. Overall kind of disappointed by St. Thomas and Bethel. Bethel was recieving votes but lost to Olaf this week so I expect them to fall out. Starters are solid but Riley Dearring being a no-show (compared to standards) is one of the reasons I just don't see them being as good as I thought they might be in November. Also St. Thomas has shown glimpses this year, but also taken some big bruises as well. I expect that they have a better 2018, but lack of experience might cost them this year.

bball1122

Quote from: miacmaniac on January 06, 2018, 06:44:33 PM
After suffering through one of the worst exhibits of basketball I've ever seen on Wednesday, I vow to not comment on Mac's "system",  other than to say it is really a shame that an amazingly talented player like Wyatt Ferm has to have his talent  wasted by such a travesty. Ferm is easily the best player in the MIAC this year and possibly one of the best all-around players in the conference in the past several years.

I ventured down to East Northfield this afternoon  for  a highly entertaining game between UST and CC. It had been 360 days since CC's last conference loss (a fact gleamed from the game notes-- good stuff), but all good streaks must end. Toms jumped to a quick 6-0 lead and ran it up to as big of a margin as 13 before the Knights, poised veterans that they are, chiseled that down to a 61-57 final. I enjoyed the battles in the paint between the phenomenal Kevin Grow & Erik Davis, who is emerging as a potential replacement to Grow as the MIAC' best big man. Great defensive play by both squads, a great all-around game out of Ryan Boll and a coaching chess match that was the polar opposite of Wednesday's farce in Leonard Center.  I for one am looking forward  to the rematch!


This may be the most preposterous statement I've ever read on this board.  Ferm is talented, but hasn't been overly impressive when I've seen him play, and I've seen him a number of times.  He averaged 12 PPG as a freshman and 9 PPG as a sophomore (when MAC was playing much more conventionally).   Solid numbers, yes, but not earth-shattering.   He's not even the best player on his team, as Smitty noted.   

As for the MAC "system"....it's an absolute abomination.  I saw it live for the first time yesterday and and it was bad, bad basketball.  While they aren't very talented, they have some players that I would like to see in a more traditional "system". I liked what I saw of FY post Jackson Henningfield.

Saint John's looks to be the clear favorite at this point, with Carleton, Augsburg, and UST in the next group.   Bethel, GAC, St. Olaf, and Hamline will be fighting for the final two spots.  SMU and MAC may be two of the worst MIAC teams I've seen in a decade. 

SUMMIT!!!!!

You're right, Smitty & bball, I was swept up in enthusiasm after seeing Ferm's incredible performance Wednesday, which only looked that much better in contrast to the play around him. Not often you see a guy drop in 31 points in 20 minutes, and hit some threes from barely inside the half line.

After the game, the king and pawn go into the same box.

Italian proverb