FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

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Mr.MIAC

I like playing devil's advocate, so here goes. Minnesota has a disproportionate number of small private colleges and universities. Maybe education in the state would benefit from some consolidation. Thoughts?

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on May 08, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
I like playing devil's advocate, so here goes. Minnesota has a disproportionate number of small private colleges and universities. Maybe education in the state would benefit from some consolidation. Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoYu_3j0FQ4
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

art76

Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on May 08, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
I like playing devil's advocate, so here goes. Minnesota has a disproportionate number of small private colleges and universities. Maybe education in the state would benefit from some consolidation. Thoughts?

OK, I can play this game - Have St. Olaf and St Thomas consolidate. They already share a coaching philosophy - based on the recent past history of where St. Olaf's coaches have come from.....   ::)
You don't have a soul. You are a soul.
You have a body. - C.S. Lewis

USTBench

Quote from: hazzben on May 08, 2019, 11:20:09 AM
Yeah, my beef is with Olaf (and to a lesser extent Mac). I know firsthand the strain the other schools face.

The media's issue is that they only see this from a FB perspective and 97-0 is the easy/lazy be all end all. Hence the articles that talk about Gags & SJU and their lopsided dominance of yesteryear.

I get the tough spot for schools with enrollment and financial concerns.

The issue is that each school has its own motives (as they should). But some of them are far more honorable and honest than others. What doesn't sit well is the threats being issued to other schools. You better vote with us (and possibly outside your best interest as it pertains to UST's membership) or we are gonna leave and blow up the league.

97-0 appears to be a driving factor for Olaf/Anderson. But that doesn't mean Hamline's motives are the same at all. The media's inability to do a deep dive into the real issues means we get an oversimplified narrative where the whole league gets lumped into the 'we just think they're too good so we r gonna boot em' crowd. 

KFAN and Dan B. essentially painted a story of an entire league afraid of UST and in lock step to boot them.

The media's inability to do a deep dive into the real issues resulting in the over-simplified narrative is the COL's own-doing. If the default answer from every administration is "no comment" and coaches and ADs are hamstrung from giving their two-cents then all the media and people sitting around waiting for this charade to end can do is draw their own conclusions.

It is oversimplified. Sure. Sports reporters/columnists (whose job, in-part, is to know things like obscure NCAA rules) are speculating that UST will just "jump to Division 1" when everyone on this board knows that is impossible. But, that's about the best you can hope for when the only outfits reporting on this debacle are  three of the four biggest news papers in the state (Star Tribune, Pioneer Press and the Fargo Forum), and they spend 90% of their college athletics coverage on either the Gophers or (in the Forum's case) NDSU. I'm sure Reusse has some significant contacts around the league, so he's probably the most plugged in as to what is likely to happen, but Scoggins and McFeely are probably short on sources and are more columnists than reporters at this point, so they'll just wildly speculate. But, as McFeely rightfully said, if this is what the COL or a majority of the MIAC wants to do, the OWN IT.

If it's NOT about football, say so. If it's about football, say so. If it's about about UST transitioning away from a homogeneous liberal arts campus in the same vein as the rest of the MIAC, say so (even though, if you are within the arches, it certainly still feels like a homogeneous liberal arts campus). But when you say NOTHING, well then, all I'm left with is the most obvious answer, and that's: 97 - 0.

Like I've said before, it's really hard to make the Evil Empire look like the good guys/victims in a given situation (and I'm certainly not saying UST is the victim or good guys) but as long as the COL says nothing, that's what is happening.


Augsburg University: 2021 MIAC Spring Football Champions

Mr.MIAC

Quote from: art76 on May 08, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on May 08, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
I like playing devil's advocate, so here goes. Minnesota has a disproportionate number of small private colleges and universities. Maybe education in the state would benefit from some consolidation. Thoughts?

OK, I can play this game - Have St. Olaf and St Thomas consolidate. They already share a coaching philosophy - based on the recent past history of where St. Olaf's coaches have come from.....   ::)

A consolidation between UST and STO might work. We'd end up with one hell of a pep band. I don't think Bethel has anything to worry about. They have found their niche, and that's not going to change. The Hamlines of the world are the ones in jeopardy, partly because they aren't particularly notable outside a few areas. Who besides first-generation college students (who don't know any better), people who want to study urban decay (perfect location), and female hockey players (who never seem to have boyfriends) really WANTS to go to Hamline?

GoldandBlueBU

Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on May 08, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
Quote from: art76 on May 08, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on May 08, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
I like playing devil's advocate, so here goes. Minnesota has a disproportionate number of small private colleges and universities. Maybe education in the state would benefit from some consolidation. Thoughts?

OK, I can play this game - Have St. Olaf and St Thomas consolidate. They already share a coaching philosophy - based on the recent past history of where St. Olaf's coaches have come from.....   ::)

A consolidation between UST and STO might work. We'd end up with one hell of a pep band. I don't think Bethel has anything to worry about. They have found their niche, and that's not going to change. The Hamlines of the world are the ones in jeopardy, partly because they aren't particularly notable outside a few areas. Who besides first-generation college students (who don't know any better), people who want to study urban decay (perfect location), and female hockey players (who never seem to have boyfriends) really WANTS to go to Hamline?

I think Hamline's niche is the merger that they've already done in order to create the Mitchell-Hamline law school, and the ability to do a law degree with 3 years of undergrad and 3 years of grad.  Certainly might not be enough to keep the whole school afloat, but I'm sure that's a draw for a number of folks.

Warren Thompson

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2019, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: OzJohnnie on May 07, 2019, 10:54:01 PM
I don't like the COL terminology.  Other than STO who seem in peak whinge mode, I reckon many of these schools have serious issues and legit complaints.  It's just football, remember.  The most expensive sport at a school.  It's one thing to be dominated and another to be run out of business (which I believe is a legit concern for some "COL" members).

I think that many MIAC programs feel that they are taken advantage of in football, rather than partnered with.  It's not just the fact that UST recruits a lot of players, it's the fact that recruiting is seems unfairly competitive and is at the deliberate expense of partner MIAC programs.  I suspect they feel like UST is not merely competitive but is perhaps approaches being uncollaborative, even vindictive, in football.

I suspect it's not just being thrashed on the field, but having it rubbed in the faces of their players and parents.  Anyone should take getting beat, even badly, particularly by programs committed to national competitiveness in this extremely competitive D3 era.  It's a whole 'nother thing to have it rubbed in your face.  Students, parents and alumni would have little interest in paying high fees so that their kids can be punching bags in some juvenile rivalry between coaches.

To be frank, this whole "UST and other high achieving programs are the real victims of these whinging losers" schtick is ludicrous.  The real people getting lost in the shuffle of all this whinging and big-noting are the students and parents going into debt do give themselves a leg up in life.  They don't need to put up with this bulls***t.  And as long as UST and STO and whomever keep carrying on like porkchops then UST will be on a one-way train out of here.  Because UST football success is of zero significance compared to the missions of the liberal arts institutions in Minnesota.

I'm of the strong opinion that UST should stay.  The apparent inability of UST (and the media supporters) to show even an ounce of humility is what will ensure they do not.

This was an almost frighteningly lucid, well-reasoned, and sensible post for this thread.

A pity there aren't more of them ....

sfury

I like that we've gotten to the it's the media's fault portion of this. Took a bit longer than usual in today's world but good to see.

sfury

Quote from: sfury on May 08, 2019, 03:40:17 PM
I like that we've gotten to the it's the media's fault portion of this. Took a bit longer than usual in today's world but good to see.

Related, as I read through several weeks worth of posts and see folks ripping him, I do have to defend my guy Reusse. I think he's the best sports columnist in the country. No one covers the big sports and the rest of a state -- the high schools, small colleges, old legends -- like he does. I'm biased because I know and love the guy but there's no one else whose versatility, institutional memoryand talent allows him to be the No. 1 guy I would want to read after a World Series victory by the Twins or a Stagg victory by the Johnnies or following the death of a Vikings star from the '70s. And if routinely criticizing a Big Ten football program that has been awful to mediocre for five decades is trolling, well, you can always read Sid.

USTBench

Quote from: sfury on May 08, 2019, 03:40:17 PM
I like that we've gotten to the it's the media's fault portion of this. Took a bit longer than usual in today's world but good to see.


For my part, I am in no way blaming the media, but I know many are. My chief complaint is the institutional refusal to let the media know what the hell is going on, which leads to rampant speculation and 97-0 finding its way into every article.

My guess is, there's no good way to spin this for the COL, so they're probably thinking they might as well say nothing.
Augsburg University: 2021 MIAC Spring Football Champions

TheChucker

#92290
Quote from: sfury on May 08, 2019, 04:37:52 PM
Quote from: sfury on May 08, 2019, 03:40:17 PM
I like that we've gotten to the it's the media's fault portion of this. Took a bit longer than usual in today's world but good to see.

Related, as I read through several weeks worth of posts and see folks ripping him, I do have to defend my guy Reusse. I think he's the best sports columnist in the country. No one covers the big sports and the rest of a state -- the high schools, small colleges, old legends -- like he does. I'm biased because I know and love the guy but there's no one else whose versatility, institutional memoryand talent allows him to be the No. 1 guy I would want to read after a World Series victory by the Twins or a Stagg victory by the Johnnies or following the death of a Vikings star from the '70s. And if routinely criticizing a Big Ten football program that has been awful to mediocre for five decades is trolling, well, you can always read Sid.

Sure, Reusse is still original with small college, small town, and the Twins and I'll follow that....but....he has absolutely no doubt sold out to be an uninteresting 100% troll on anything Gopher. His only goal is to troll. He has nothing original or interesting to say about them. He's intentionally cut off a big potential market for readership there. So be it. It's his choice.

Regarding Sid, he's got very little interesting to say now too. His day to day stuff never was groundbreaking. However, because of his coach-butt-kissing methods, he always was the first to get the big scoop.

gordonmann

Out of curiosity I looked at the athletic department budgetary figures for 2017 that are reported to the federal government.

You can do the same here:

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/compare/confirm

Here are the football related numbers. You can only compare four schools at a time and I picked Bethel, St. Olaf and Augsburg.

Football operating expenses:
St. Thomas: $341,192
Bethel: $120,588
St. Olaf: $74,517
Augsburg: $25,716

Total football expenses/revenues (they balance to $0):
St. Thomas: $1,166,725
Bethel: $507,588
St. Olaf: $423,259
Augsburg: $386,353

My guess is that there's some discretion in what you report where. But, even if you ascribe some of this to accounting differences, the discrepancy is noticeable. If you look at other sports, St. Thomas often spends more but not always and not by these margins. The difference in financial commitment really does seem to be concentrated in football.

For what it's worth, the reported football budget is $674,000 for Mount Union and $1.7 million for Mary Hardin-Baylor.

I feel bad for the athletes and coaches at St. Thomas who are not in the football program. If you're the women's basketball team or men's soccer team and you get booted from the conference because of football, that's going to make for some internal strife within the UST Athletic Department.

OldAuggie

Quote from: gordonmann on May 08, 2019, 05:12:00 PM
Out of curiosity I looked at the athletic department budgetary figures for 2017 that are reported to the federal government.

You can do the same here:

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/compare/confirm

Here are the football related numbers. You can only compare four schools at a time and I picked Bethel, St. Olaf and Augsburg.

Football operating expenses:
St. Thomas: $341,192
Bethel: $120,588
St. Olaf: $74,517
Augsburg: $25,716

Total football expenses/revenues (they balance to $0):
St. Thomas: $1,166,725
Bethel: $507,588
St. Olaf: $423,259
Augsburg: $386,353

My guess is that there's some discretion in what you report where. But, even if you ascribe some of this to accounting differences, the discrepancy is noticeable. If you look at other sports, St. Thomas often spends more but not always and not by these margins. The difference in financial commitment really does seem to be concentrated in football.

For what it's worth, the reported football budget is $674,000 for Mount Union and $1.7 million for Mary Hardin-Baylor.

I feel bad for the athletes and coaches at St. Thomas who are not in the football program. If you're the women's basketball team or men's soccer team and you get booted from the conference because of football, that's going to make for some internal strife within the UST Athletic Department.
Very interesting expenses for Augsburg and I am sure the wrestling program is the reason as they are the Big Dog at Augsburg.
MIAC champions 1928, 1997

OzJohnnie

Quote from: gordonmann on May 08, 2019, 05:12:00 PM
Out of curiosity I looked at the athletic department budgetary figures for 2017 that are reported to the federal government.

Having a look at Augs, Hamline and UST (in that order) we can see that almost the entirety of difference in budget is football.



In fact, football aside AUG spends almost exactly the same amount on athletics as UST does.  It's not operational athletic spending that makes UST successful in every other MIAC sport.  And you can argue that football spending is a consequence of the national arms race in D3 football, not anything specific to UST.

So it's not endowment or monster spending that makes the difference.  Maybe it is student body size as participation in sports is significantly higher at UST (544) vs AUG (293) or HAM (312).  Perhaps it's the money spent on facilities which isn't measured in this survey as opposed to operations, which is measured, that makes the difference.  UST obviously has bigger or more facilities to handle almost double the number of athletes.  That could be a thing.

Dunno.  I think it really comes down to people not wanting to work with each other.  Everything else is lipstick.
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johnnie_esq

Quote from: OzJohnnie on May 08, 2019, 08:22:34 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on May 08, 2019, 05:12:00 PM
Out of curiosity I looked at the athletic department budgetary figures for 2017 that are reported to the federal government.

Having a look at Augs, Hamline and UST (in that order) we can see that almost the entirety of difference in budget is football.



In fact, football aside AUG spends almost exactly the same amount on athletics as UST does.  It's not operational athletic spending that makes UST successful in every other MIAC sport.  And you can argue that football spending is a consequence of the national arms race in D3 football, not anything specific to UST.

So it's not endowment or monster spending that makes the difference.  Maybe it is student body size as participation in sports is significantly higher at UST (544) vs AUG (293) or HAM (312).  Perhaps it's the money spent on facilities which isn't measured in this survey as opposed to operations, which is measured, that makes the difference.  UST obviously has bigger or more facilities to handle almost double the number of athletes.  That could be a thing.

Dunno.  I think it really comes down to people not wanting to work with each other.  Everything else is lipstick.

Keep in mind that the accounting for these expenses can differ by school, as there is no standard way to perform an accounting for this reporting.   For example, we don't know if Augsburg's on-campus hockey arena is included in these figures, which would show a lot more costs and revenues but not be related directly to the school's own use (as I could rent ice there, for example, and they still have to maintain it).  Contrast that to a UST, who rents ice at St. Thomas Academy but does not have to account for the total maintenance of that arena in their figures.

So we should be a little careful when comparing these figures as being an end-all answer.
SJU Champions 2003 NCAA D3, 1976 NCAA D3, 1965 NAIA, 1963 NAIA; SJU 2nd Place 2000 NCAA D3; SJU MIAC Champions 2018, 2014, 2009, 2008, 2006, 2005, 2003, 2002, 2001, 1999, 1998, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1991, 1989, 1985, 1982, 1979, 1977, 1976, 1975, 1974, 1971, 1965, 1963, 1962, 1953, 1938, 1936, 1935, 1932