FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:13:40 AM

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tigerfanalso

JK

I don't disagree. I think they'll get to a point where their 2nd string team is not a top five team in the country but I think they will compete at a very high level for years to come

jknezek

W&L wins both the men's and women's Commissioner's Cups and takes the overall for the 11th straight year! Congratulations Generals on another fine conference year!

Shenandoah does better than I thought, finishing third from bottom overall and for the men, and in the middle of the pack for the women. E&H and Randolph sit at the bottom.

HSCTiger74

Quote from: jknezek on May 11, 2013, 09:12:52 AM
W&L wins both the men's and women's Commissioner's Cups and takes the overall for the 11th straight year! Congratulations Generals on another fine conference year!

Shenandoah does better than I thought, finishing third from bottom overall and for the men, and in the middle of the pack for the women. E&H and Randolph sit at the bottom.

Does this make W&L the Mt. Union of the ODAC?   ;)
Seriously though, congratulations and well done to the Generals' athletes and coaches.
TANSTAAFL

jknezek

Quote from: HSCTiger74 on May 12, 2013, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: jknezek on May 11, 2013, 09:12:52 AM
W&L wins both the men's and women's Commissioner's Cups and takes the overall for the 11th straight year! Congratulations Generals on another fine conference year!

Shenandoah does better than I thought, finishing third from bottom overall and for the men, and in the middle of the pack for the women. E&H and Randolph sit at the bottom.

Does this make W&L the Mt. Union of the ODAC?   ;)
Seriously though, congratulations and well done to the Generals' athletes and coaches.

I know you wrote it as a joke, and no W&L isn't the dominant force Mt. Union is, but it is worth a deeper look at why W&L does so well in these cups. Many people may not care, but since I'm a math guy I found the following interesting:

Like most of the ODAC schools W&L has a couple sports that they just dominate the conference. For example Men's and Women's tennis is usually pretty unattractive competition (Men: 32 of 37 championships, Women: 22 of the last 23). But I think the real difference is that there just aren't any sports where W&L is flat out miserable anymore. You used to be able to count on the basketball teams being pretty bad, baseball used to end up in the bottom of the field, but that's just not true anymore. The sports that W&L isn't competitive for championships they still finish mid table at worst.

If you look at the Cup table, the only men's sport where W&L didn't pick up more than 1/2 of the points available was Indoor Track and Field and they got 4 of 8 points while being 1 of only 4 schools to participate in every ODAC sport. On the women's side, basketball and golf finished under the half way point, with 5.5/12 pts in basketball and 1/3 in Golf, which is a second year program. Now W&L doesn't play softball, but I think Bridgewater is the only other ODAC school to play as many women's conference sports as the Generals. The Eagles don't play Women's golf, but play everything else.

Before anyone points it out, I'll say that participating in the most sports isn't an advantage. The Cup is awarded based on the overall percentage of points you earn in the sports you participate in. So winning 75% of your available points in 3 sports would place you in the same spot in the cup standings as winning 75% of your available points in 15 sports. So while W&L plays the most ODAC sports of any school in the conference, that doesn't give them a leg up on the Cup. Perversely, it may make it harder to win, as you have to pick up consistent sports in even more areas. For example, even though the Generals don't win an abnormal number of regular season titles, 2 on the men's side and 3 on the women's side, the real key is being consistently good, or at least not real bad, everywhere else.

All that being said, Lynchburg had a good run at the men's title this year and I think won it the last few years. W&L's women, however, have won 10 straight and 13 of the 21 commissioner's cups. When you consider W&L went co-ed in 1986, it didn't take too long to ramp up to victory and really have made a great run since.

wasper68

Thank you to all the veterans on here for making today possible.  God Bless you and your family.

jknezek

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ODAC OOC schedules for this year are... sad. I'm going to put these schedules into 3 tiers, although I'm not ranking inside of the tiers. Three teams have somewhat respectable schedules, with Shenandoah arguably being the most challenging, especially given the state of the Shenandoah program.

ODAC TOP TIER

Shenandoah was the worst team in the conference, but is looking respectable for their OOC schedule! Gallaudet is coming off a good year in the ECFC, 7-3, Ferrum went 7-3 in the USAC (can't get over that CNU hump!), and CNU.  Christopher Newport is coming off what might be a down year (6-5), until you realize they have been 6-5 or worse for 3 of the last 4 seasons. The class of the USAC isn't exactly a power program recently, although annual games against Salisbury and Wesley do provide some cover for those records. Not a "bad" team in the bunch, but they are missing a really strong team. Still, on paper, one of the better OOC schedules in the ODAC.

I actually think W&L is a decent OOC schedule this year with F&M coming off a good year, Center at least going above .500, and Sewanee showing some improvement (although dropping to 3-7 from 5-5 the previous year isn't great, at least they are better than the 2 or fewer wins they had from '06-'10). It doesn't look as good on paper versus Shenandoah, but F&M, Centre and Sewanee all play in what are considered tougher conferences than the ECFC and USAC.

Finally in the top tier you'd have to look at RMC who has a quality game against Johns Hopkins before facing a weak Averett squad (1-9 in USAC) and a lower tier PAC team in Bethany (3-7). Hey, at least there is one high quality opponent. In fact, for all intents and purposes, this might be the only ODAC OOC game against a top 25 team. Is it better to have one high quality opponent and two bad ones (RMC), or 2 mid-quality opponents and one bad one (W&L), or three teams that have good results but play in weaker leagues (Shenandoah)?

ODAC SECOND TIER

In the second tier you have to start with HSC, which is odd since the Tigers usually get at least one really good opponent per year recently. Instead this year they have the joy of facing Averett (along with half the ODAC seemingly), following up with the previously discussed CNU, and finally, what can only be described as a "filler" game with the Coast Guard Academy. CGA gets my admiration for what they do, but not really on the football field. Playing in the much maligned NEFC, they have one winning record since the good years of '06 and '07. Tiger fans should really be looking forward the Wabash games in the future, because this year is not up to recent standards.

The next team in the second tier is E&H. E&H picks up Ferrum, Maryville and Methodist. Three teams from the USAC, but all finished .500 or better. These teams aren't exactly powerhouses, but they have at least shown an ability to win consistently.

The final team in the second tier is Bridgewater. The Eagles open with a winless St. Vincent, a Greensboro team that went an improving 5-5 in the USAC, and Ferrum. Ferrum falls under CNU, and the other two opponents aren't going to put the fear into to many teams. But Ferrum and Greensboro are at least both above .500 possibilities for the year.

ODAC THIRD TIER

In the bottom tier we can start with Catholic who has two complete mellons on their schedule, winless McDaniel (Centennial) and winless (in the ECFC!) Anna Maria. But they also schedule Carnegie Mellon, a reputable program who started strong before falling to 6-5 last year. Of course, that is CMU's best record since 2007, but they are generally a .500 program recently that schedules tough. Does one mediocre opponent save this OOC schedule? Not really with two teams that went a combined 0-20 on the other side of the scale.

That just leaves Guilford who plays their traditional opponents. Greensboro, Methodist and Averett with 2 of 3 showing they can finish .500 in the USAC. Still, no CNU or Ferrum put this USAC heavy schedule below the other USAC OOC schedules found in the ODAC. While there may not be an 0 fer in this group, there also isn't much redeeming.


CONCLUSION

In the end, I give props to Shenandoah for scheduling up given their results, W&L's traditional opponents are on the upswing so that looks good if lucky, and RMC has the only stand out opponent. I have to think HSC and Bridgewater have scheduled under their ambitions for the year, Guilford as well if they are aiming to climb the ODAC ladder. Catholic and E&H should be able to maximize their games to go 4-2 or 5-1 combined to start the season, but I doubt it will do them any favors when they face the ODAC's best teams.

tigerfanalso

JK

I'm afraid I have agree with your post. I don't understand why HSC wants to spend the time and money to travel to the CGA, that said there are not many good D3 teams to schedule unless you want to travel. Salisbury use to fill that role but they did not renew the contract, Huntingdon is too far (trust me, I made that drive). JH would be a great team to play but I doubt they would schedule both RMC and HSC OOC.  I also wonder if schools are really looking for difficult OOC games given playoff implications.  If I were the AD I'd open with Mt. Union every year so I guess it's good I'm not the AD !!!!

jknezek

#15787
Quote from: tigerfanalso on June 04, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
JK

I'm afraid I have agree with your post. I don't understand why HSC wants to spend the time and money to travel to the CGA, that said there are not many good D3 teams to schedule unless you want to travel. Salisbury use to fill that role but they did not renew the contract, Huntingdon is too far (trust me, I made that drive). JH would be a great team to play but I doubt they would schedule both RMC and HSC OOC.  I also wonder if schools are really looking for difficult OOC games given playoff implications.  If I were the AD I'd open with Mt. Union every year so I guess it's good I'm not the AD !!!!

Sometimes you just have to fill a hole. And for a one off it can be difficult. Alma came from Michigan to play W&L 2 years ago because they both had a hole. I'm assuming this is the same. HSC probably set up the Wabash deal but it couldn't start until 2014. So they had to take what they could find. Still, it's not good for HSC's ambition for this year. On the other hand it is only one year and the home/home with Wabash should be something special given the nature of those 2 schools. And yes, living in Birmingham I know how far it is to ODAC country. Not a lot of fun to make those drives so I rarely do. Thank goodness W&L comes to Sewanee every other year!

JHU actually can't schedule 2 OOC games. They are a 10 team conference so they only get 1 OOC. Makes getting on a good Centennial team's schedule pretty hard, which is why I'm thankful for F&M who is good more years than they are not. As for opening with UMU, it just depends on your ambition. Someone has to do it and I applaud those that do.

D3MAFAN

Quote from: jknezek on June 04, 2013, 02:05:38 PM
Quote from: tigerfanalso on June 04, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
JK

I'm afraid I have agree with your post. I don't understand why HSC wants to spend the time and money to travel to the CGA, that said there are not many good D3 teams to schedule unless you want to travel. Salisbury use to fill that role but they did not renew the contract, Huntingdon is too far (trust me, I made that drive). JH would be a great team to play but I doubt they would schedule both RMC and HSC OOC.  I also wonder if schools are really looking for difficult OOC games given playoff implications.  If I were the AD I'd open with Mt. Union every year so I guess it's good I'm not the AD !!!!

Sometimes you just have to fill a hole. And for a one off it can be difficult. Alma came from Michigan to play W&L 2 years ago because they both had a hole. I'm assuming this is the same. HSC probably set up the Wabash deal but it couldn't start until 2014. So they had to take what they could find. Still, it's not good for HSC's ambition for this year. On the other hand it is only one year and the home/home with Wabash should be something special given the nature of those 2 schools. And yes, living in Birmingham I know how far it is to ODAC country. Not a lot of fun to make those drives so I rarely do. Thank goodness W&L comes to Sewanee every other year!

I know traveling is very tough, especially when you look at teams that reside in the southern states (West Coast Teams as well), there are so few competitive teams that have more than one OOC game to schedule at a given time. When looking at the ODAC, how many other southern region teams have 3 OOC to schedule, other than USAC (hasn't been very competitive in the playoffs lately) who else is there to choose within in a reasonable range. If you look at the independents, Wesley is the only team that is in a reasonable distance, so it always appears strange to see Wesley not having a full Division III schedule since they are in a great position to schedule many south region and east region teams. Other than that, you would have to go to Texas, which is almost a day's worth of travel and Pennslyvania doesn't have that many teams with more than 1 OOC game and they usually fill up quickly. Thus, the only competitive team that the ODAC could face within a reasonable range is Wesley. However, since the ODAC is so competitive within conference they would rather schedule lightly so that if a team loses a conference game, they may have a chance in making the playoffs as an at-large.

tigerfanalso

D3MAFAN

All good points which is why I'd love to see the ODAC bring in two more schools for football; reducing the OOC schedule to 1.
I'm certain that will not happen for the reason you have already addressed. I just don't like 3 OOC games nor do I like having to travel but so far due to budget restraints and missed classroom time. If HSC could schedule CNU & Ferrum most every year and continue to pick up a Wabash and/or Salisbury on occassion along the way, their OOC would be stronger than most in the ODAC and perhaps better prepare them for conference play. I know that can't happen on several fronts, also for reasons you have already mentioned. I can't see ever going to Texas and I doubt Wesley will be seen on the regular season schedule, but I have been fooled before.

jknezek

I have no desire to see a 10 team league and 1 OOC. Having a variety of OOC games gives your team and your league a chance to ramp up to conference play, a good idea of how good you are outside your league, and a better chance of being correctly seeded come playoff time. It also lets you look at other game plans that you may not see in your league but might want to borrow. Plus playing games that spread out your footprint are a good way of expanding your recruiting areas and allowing potential recruits and player families to come see a game every few years. Personally I think it's one of the downfalls of scheduling 3 VA OOC games, or 3 USASC games, is that you limit the potential benefits of OOC competition.

When W&L plays Sewanee just about every player parent from the deep South comes and has a big tailgate and forms a close bond. The same happens in reverse when W&L plays in PA. Those northeastern parents get a chance to come and see. We don't draw as well from West of VA, but the few we get can come see the Generals play in Centre.

When done right, having a couple of OOC games is really beneficial. It can be a challenge to schedule, but there are plenty of 8 team leagues and tons of D3 schools within driving distance. Putting together a good OOC schedule shouldn't be hard for ODAC teams. Other conferences, those in the South and West, have my sympathy.


D3MAFAN

Quote from: jknezek on June 06, 2013, 06:24:42 PM
I have no desire to see a 10 team league and 1 OOC. Having a variety of OOC games gives your team and your league a chance to ramp up to conference play, a good idea of how good you are outside your league, and a better chance of being correctly seeded come playoff time. It also lets you look at other game plans that you may not see in your league but might want to borrow.

I agree, having a 10 team league can somewhat limit how you can grade a conference as a whole. You may have conferences that could be really good (i.e OAC, NCAC) or not as good at times (CC) due to each team within that conference only having 1 OOC game. You can never tell if the conference is really top heavy with little parity within or conferences such as the ODAC that have good parity. However, at least in Division III we have a playoff that can help with smoothing things out at the end.

tigerfanalso

JK

We'll have to agree to disagree on the OOC deal, give me one really good OOC game and than bring on the ODAC.
As I said, will not happen for several reasons.

jknezek

Quote from: tigerfanalso on June 07, 2013, 01:26:41 PM
JK

We'll have to agree to disagree on the OOC deal, give me one really good OOC game and than bring on the ODAC.
As I said, will not happen for several reasons.

Fair enough. The ODAC is pretty much tapped out in terms of members for most sports. Football is a bit low, but I think you'll only see another football member added if Catholic leaves for some reason.

hasanova

I'm pretty sure Guilford's OOC schedule the past few years has been dictated by lower travel costs and rivalries that are hard to change.   Let's face it, Greensboro is 5 miles away, Averett is right across the state line in Danville, Methodist is a couple of hours away in Fayetteville and trips to Buena Vista (SVU) did not require overnight stay.  Besides, during the last decade, Guilford was looking for a chance to win, not a decimation by a top team. :)

With that said, I have heard some rumblings of another opponent in the AU slot after this season.