Pool C -- 2011

Started by Ralph Turner, October 09, 2011, 04:31:59 PM

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DanPadavona

Quote from: K-Mack on November 10, 2011, 09:30:59 PM
To be fair, it's No. 3 out of 16. If the NEFC wanted, it could be like everyone else and have an automatic bid for every eight teams.

Absolutely, which would be par for the course in Eastern region. That we are handing out an automatic bid to the ECFC is rather insane, especially when you consider what happened to Norwich against the bottom of the E8.

What's needed imo is some type of criteria or a probationary period for these automatic bids. For instance, if you form a conference with a team which has won a playoff game in the last 5 years, you are fine. But if nobody in your conference has done anything in the playoffs in recent history, you get put on probation. If your conference fails to win a single NCAA playoff game after x-seasons, you lose that Pool A automatic bid and have to re-qualify by future playoff performance as a Pool B.

I think the biggest problem in Eastern Region isn't that we lack a MUC or a UWW. It's that we send one very questionable conference champion to the playoffs every season, and now one completely undeserving team to the playoffs. In most seasons, two of the Eastern Region teams in the playoffs don't belong there and everyone knows it.
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wally_wabash

Quote from: BashDad on November 11, 2011, 04:04:15 PM
Please tweet that map, Wally. I just want to see it.

Done...it may not live up to the hype.   :)
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wally_wabash

Quote from: DanPadavona on November 11, 2011, 04:26:04 PM
What's needed imo is some type of criteria or a probationary period for these automatic bids. For instance, if you form a conference with a team which has won a playoff game in the last 5 years, you are fine. But if nobody in your conference has done anything in the playoffs in recent history, you get put on probation. If your conference fails to win a single NCAA playoff game after x-seasons, you lose that Pool A automatic bid and have to re-qualify by future playoff performance as a Pool B.

I can't say I agree with this.  This makes access to the tournament extremely reliant on your tournament draw.  For instance...for a long time, Trinity would win the SCAC and get paired up with UMHB because they pretty much had to be.  Should Trinity and the entire SCAC get shut out because of geography and the NCAA's financial restrictions?  Also, this year we're going to have two SCIAC teams playing in the first round.  How equitable is it to everybody else that somebody from the SCIAC is guaranteed to win? 

What's great about this tournament is that everybody has a chance to qualify.  Its access is fair and open to everybody.  It is a tournament of conference champions, as it should be. 
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smedindy

But I believe you are one of the lone contrarians not adding CWRU into the playoffs, so throwing CWRU and leaving out Illinois College means this:

1. I think CWRU becomes the 5 or 6 in the UWW bracket.

2. That may push either Benedictine or IWU to the St. Thomas bracket OR

3. That may push Thomas More to the UMHB bracket which means that JHU or Salisbury could go to the UMU bracket.

smedindy

Quote from: DanPadavona on November 11, 2011, 04:26:04 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 10, 2011, 09:30:59 PM
To be fair, it's No. 3 out of 16. If the NEFC wanted, it could be like everyone else and have an automatic bid for every eight teams.

Absolutely, which would be par for the course in Eastern region. That we are handing out an automatic bid to the ECFC is rather insane, especially when you consider what happened to Norwich against the bottom of the E8.


That's totally against the spirit of D-3 and the NCAA. They are members in full standing and their conference is accredited by the NCAA and has enough members in it to warrant representation. Therefore they should and must be allowed to participate.

I hated, hated, hated the play-in game when the NCAA D-1 men's hoops tourney was 65 because it penalized teams that did what they were supposed to do.

If the NCAA decided that the SWAC or MEAC couldn't participate in the D-1 tournament, then there would be no Hampton winning as a 15 seed.

I don't care if the ECFC loses their playoff game by 100 - they belong in the playoffs because they met the criteria.

wally_wabash

Quote from: smedindy on November 11, 2011, 04:41:07 PM
But I believe you are one of the lone contrarians not adding CWRU into the playoffs, so throwing CWRU and leaving out Illinois College means this:

1. I think CWRU becomes the 5 or 6 in the UWW bracket.

2. That may push either Benedictine or IWU to the St. Thomas bracket OR

3. That may push Thomas More to the UMHB bracket which means that JHU or Salisbury could go to the UMU bracket.

That I am.  Other projections will just use the RR's as a master list, which is probably the most fair thing to do...I'm definitely taking some liberty and using the RR's as more of a guide.  I also think that of the teams that really need to win tomorrow to get in, CWRU is super ripe to be one of those teams that plays their way out...on the road against a sneaky Tartan team.  Just a feeling I have. 

But if we put CWRU in, that would knock out my last team in (Illinois College) which kind of starts the dominos in my projected field of 32.  The beauty is that CWRU is in a flexible spot and doesn't have to necessarily go straight to the North-ish quadrant.  I kind of like putting them into the UMU quadrant, pushing Wesley to the UMHB quadrant, which pushes Centre to the UWW quadrant, and then maybe IWU to the St. Thomas quadrant.  I think that keeps things still relatively balanced and doesn't create more flights.  There are definitely plenty of options. 
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wesleydad

smed, i only say that based on the number of projections that have widener in the playoffs which only happens if they win.  i just dont see it.

SUADC

Pool C could be shaken up if Widener can pull off one against Del Val. Each team is making big plays. This is a great game.

ExTartanPlayer

Quote from: smedindy on November 11, 2011, 04:46:44 PM
That's totally against the spirit of D-3 and the NCAA. They are members in full standing and their conference is accredited by the NCAA and has enough members in it to warrant representation. Therefore they should and must be allowed to participate.

I hated, hated, hated the play-in game when the NCAA D-1 men's hoops tourney was 65 because it penalized teams that did what they were supposed to do.

I don't care if the ECFC loses their playoff game by 100 - they belong in the playoffs because they met the criteria.

I completely agree; I was about to bring up the same parallel re: the play-in game.  The NCAA decided that rather than give up a few precious at-large spots (so some 19-13 team from the bottom of the Big Ten could make the tournament), they should penalize the teams that actually EARNED their guaranteed spot in the tournament by winning their conference.
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

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Ralph Turner

Thanks to Kean and Del Valley for taking care of business

DanPadavona

#265
Quote from: smedindy on November 11, 2011, 04:46:44 PM
That's totally against the spirit of D-3 and the NCAA. They are members in full standing and their conference is accredited by the NCAA and has enough members in it to warrant representation. Therefore they should and must be allowed to participate.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, Smed. And I do respect your opinion.

It is my opinion that the open invitation to any conference with 7 teams to be given an automatic bid is easily exploited, which in its own right would be against the spirit of D-3 and the NCAA. Any 7+ bottom feeding teams from competitive conferences can opt to join together and swallow a bid.

I believe this is exactly what the ECFC did. Note that the ECFC is a one sport conference: football. This is not an established conference with a history of multi-sport competition. 

None of the teams in the conference have anything in common geographically or academically as far as I can ascertain. The only commonality they seem to share is that they either were terrible football programs in their former conferences, or they had no program at all. Rather than choose to stay in conference (Norwich in the E8) and fight to improve, they took the easy way out and formed a conference with doormats worse than them.

If a high school senior takes all AP-Level courses and comes out with a 3.9 GPA, should she be usurped for Valedictorian by a student who skated by with joke senior year courses which "earned" a 4.0 GPA? Should Yale take the 4.0 GPA student because all that matters is GPA, and not the quality of the education?

This is where we disagree. I believe the ECFC is an example of beating the system, rather than achieving a goal. The danger is that any conference can be formed to take advantage of this NCAA rule. There should be qualifications, like any other endeavor in life, for being given a Pool A bid. Non-performers should be forced to improve if they wish to maintain automatic accreditation.


Quote from: smedindy on November 11, 2011, 04:46:44 PM
I don't care if the ECFC loses their playoff game by 100 - they belong in the playoffs because they met the criteria.

I care. I believe the NCAA and D3 stands for excellence and competitiveness. Trailing 50-0 at the half pretty much sums up that you are in over your head, and don't belong.
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DanPadavona

Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2011, 04:49:42 PM
Thanks to Kean and Del Valley for taking care of business

Especially Del Valley. 580 yards and 56 points against Widener - darn impressive!
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smedindy

#267
They didn't beat the system - they helped form a league where they would be competitive. More power to them. Remember they were kind of left out when the FFC went belly up.

The auto bid was a sidebar. It's not swallowing a bid. And their competitiveness in the playoffs shouldn't matter. You meet the criteria, you qualify. Period. This is just sports, man. And there is nothing wrong with them playing in the playoffs. It's a reward for a championship of a legitimate conference.

I just can't see Norwich scheming to say, "Hey let's for a conference so we can get an automatic bid!" That's comical! And I can't think of any team want to jump a conference SOLELY to get a bid. It's inane!






DanPadavona

#268
They do swallow a spot in the playoffs. That's one deserving team out, to make way for an undeserving team getting in without the least bit of on-field qualification. Do you really want to see Norwich play Mount Union? Is that what competition should be about?

And it is beating the system. If the only qualification for getting into an Ivy league school was an average of 90 or higher, no high school student would take a single challenging class. I'm tired of the "everyone gets a trophy" society. We should reward teams which work hard to get there, and not reward teams which dodge all true competition so they can sneak in the back door.

College should be about challenging yourself. It shouldn't be about figuring out the easiest way to slip by.
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DanPadavona

Quote from: smedindy on November 12, 2011, 07:37:25 PM
I just can't see Norwich scheming to say, "Hey let's for a conference so we can get an automatic bid!" That's comical! And I can't think of any team want to jump a conference SOLELY to get a bid. It's inane!

Is it? Explain to me why they left the Empire 8 then. Was it because they didn't respect Ithaca's academics, but they thought SUNY Maritime's academics were better to align with? Please. They bolted because they lost in the Empire 8 every year. And they joined a weak league because they wanted to win every year. You seriously don't see it?
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