The D3 soccer vs D1 soccer debate

Started by PaulNewman, September 07, 2022, 01:28:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PaulNewman

I am someone who definitely buys that D3 soccer is closer to D1 soccer than most other D3 versus D1 comparisons.  That said, imo how close has been exaggerated.  To be clear, I'm not talking about D3 players who could sit on a D1 bench as a walk-on or semi-walk-on.  The threshold should be D3 players who would regularly play (starters and consistent subs) and have some impact on a D1 team, and not just for the very bottom 30-40 D1 programs.  Imo, there are some that could but not many...maybe 2-3 dozen out of hundreds and hundreds...and certainly not the percentages some have suggested.

Let's consider two very prominent success examples familiar to most.  Hector Gomez is at middling mid-major Cleveland State.  He's played in all three games with real minutes (47, 50, 31) but NO starts.  He has yet to score or earn an assist.  A 1st team AA at OWU last year Hector would quite credibly be in the conversation for D3 NPOY.

Speaking of D3 NPOYs, German Giammattei is indeed at Maryland, one of the premier D1 programs.  He's doing quite well with 3 starts in 4 games played.  Minutes in order so far are 57, 54, 42, and 25.  He came on as a sub in his most recent contest versus Virginia with a significant reduction in minutes but he did get his first goal and first assist of the young season.

So these are legit examples of guys who are definitely making an impact but neither looks on track for All-Conference or AA-type honors.  And both were at the very tippy-top of D3. 

Would love for those with knowledge of other D3 guys making the move to D1 over the past 5 or years and detailing what happened for them.

I also was thinking about the D1 claims while watching some of the elite D3 teams over the past several days.  I had zero confusion about whether they were playing at a D3 or D1 level.  The speed of play and amount of time on the ball for D1 are significantly different than higher-end D3.




PaulNewman

From Maryland website...

One of the most accomplished players in Division III men's soccer history, Giammattei is the only D-III player to ever win consecutive USC National Player of the Year honors and just the second to win it twice overall...helped the Mammoths to consecutive national championship game appearances...two-time first-team All-American...started 60 matches in his career, totaling 45 goals and 12 assists...served as a captain in the 2021 campaign and scored 12 goals and 4 assists en route to USC National Player of the Year honors...named a first-team All-American, first-team All-Region and first-team All-NESCAC...voted the D3Soccer.com Forward of the Year...had a historic sophomore campaign in 2019, scoring 26 goals and adding five assists...tied the NESCAC single season scoring record and set the Amherst single season scoring and points record...was the NESCAC Rookie of the Year after tallying seven goals and three assists as a freshman...in his three-year career, the Mammoths went 50-10-5 overall and 21-5-4 in conference games

https://umterps.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/german-giammattei/10433


Gregory Sager

North Park has had three D3-to-D1 players within the past half-dozen years. The first was CB Ricky Pimentel. After a year at NPU he transferred seven miles south to Illinois-Chicago. As a scholarship player at UIC in 2016 he started three games for the Flames and came off of the bench in a handful of others. Two of those starts, against Northwestern and Valparaiso, saw him play the entire 90 minutes. UIC went on to finish a game above .500 that season. He missed North Park, so he transferred back the next season and eventually became a United Soccer Coaches All-American pick and the CCIW Defensive Player of the Year, and was a cornerstone of the Vikings' 2017 national runner-up squad.

Gustav Ericsson, who was a standout freshman midfielder on that 2017 team, transferred to San Diego and was on scholarship for the Toreros as a sophomore in 2018. He appeared in 18 contests for USD and made eight starts, and assisted on the game-winning goal at Gonzaga. The Toreros finished the season 7-7-5. Then, as Pimentel had before him, Gustav transferred back to North Park, where he went on to be named a 2021 d3soccer.com All-American and last season's CCIW DPOY. He's now serving as a GA for the Vikings while he finishes up his master's degree.

Jesse Anamoo, who was a CCIW first-teamer for North Park last season as a freshman striker, transferred to Santa Clara this summer. He scored the first goal of the year this season for the Broncos, albeit in an exhibition game against Sacramento State. He has started SCU's first two games of the regular season, and then came off of the bench in the third that the Broncos have played to date, although he has yet to register a point.

(When Jesse said goodbye to his Vikings teammates last spring, Gustav said, "See you back here next year." ;) )
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

PaulNewman

Thanks, Greg.  I was thinking there had been at least 2-3 from North Park.

oacalum

James Hoover was at John Carroll last year as a freshman and transferred to Cleveland State over the summer. Played in 22 games last year, starting 10 of them, and finished with 6 goals and 3 assists. He has played just 5 minutes for CSU this year so far in their first 4 games.

PaulNewman

Quote from: oacalum on September 07, 2022, 05:03:04 PM
James Hoover was at John Carroll last year as a freshman and transferred to Cleveland State over the summer. Played in 22 games last year, starting 10 of them, and finished with 6 goals and 3 assists. He has played just 5 minutes for CSU this year so far in their first 4 games.

Thanks for chiming in.

Obviously don't know what may have factored into his decision, but a review of roster gives an idea what he's up against.  I counted 7 D1 transfers...mostly from top 15-20 programs...Pittsburgh, Akron x2, Indiana, Kentucky, Bowling Green, Presbyterian.  Also 3 D2 transfers and 7 internationals (Germany x3, Spain, Serbia, Macedonia, Canada).

ECSUalum

Pat Agyemang lead URI in scoring after having 2 brilliant years at ECSU

Ejay

Oladayo Thomas from Gettysburg to Santa Clara. 

2018 - Centennial Conference Rookie of the Year when he scored eight goals.
2019 - Led the Centennial Conference with 15 goals including eight game-winners.

@ Santa Clara
2020 - Honorable Mention All-WCC - led the team with 4 goals
2021 - First Team All-WCC & United Soccer Coaches All-West Region First Team - led conference with 9 goals and 8 assists
2022 - Started 1 of 3 games thus far. 0 goals, 11 shots

PaulNewman

@ECSUalum and @Ejay...thanks for adding Agyemang and Thomas.  Looks like their moves definitely worked out for them.  Agyemang has played very little so far this year so I assume he's dealing with an injury of some sort.  Can either of you provide some backstory on these guys?  I'm curious how they ended up at ECSU and Gettysburg.  Were they lightly recruited or unknown prior to college?  Did they actively choose those schools or more so sort of fell into them?  Did they initially reject legit D1 offers to start out D3?  ECSU to URI feels a little more straightforward while Gettysburg to Santa Clara is a huge move.

Saint of Old

1 word.
Acclimation.
There are LEVELS to football.

Despite those levels, if a straight up D1 player plays in D3 for 2 years out of HS, it will take him time to acclimate to the highte pace.

Diego Maradona took time to get right in Serie A and Napoli because at the time the football, good football was being played in Italy not Spain.

Now the gap is definitely there (generally speaking) but it is not as big as some people think.

The gap between D1 and D3 is not MLS to Prem it is more League 1 v Prem to be honest.

Also, we know D3 kids going to D1 and maintaining, while I have seen many D1 kids come to lowly D3 and struggle, or would have struggled more had coaches not given them the benefit of the doubt due to pedigree.

It is a player by player, case by case analysis, but this gap is not as big as people think.


PaulNewman

Here ya go...not 100% sure this is GG based on jersey numbers but fits written description of play....and in an all important tell Max Clivio of Tufts "liked" it.  This deep dive level journalism does not come cheap.

https://twitter.com/MarylandMSoccer/status/1567201751526162433?t=iIEnaUDcDk30d-yUISyEVA&s=19

Gotberg

#11
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best

Ejay

I'm actually more interested in the players who move from D1 to D3. I'm sure they were all excited in HS to talk about their D1 commitment, but now that they're in D3, how are the doing? Dominating? Role player?

ECSUalum

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2022, 02:07:29 PM
@ECSUalum and @Ejay...thanks for adding Agyemang and Thomas.  Looks like their moves definitely worked out for them.  Agyemang has played very little so far this year so I assume he's dealing with an injury of some sort.  Can either of you provide some backstory on these guys?  I'm curious how they ended up at ECSU and Gettysburg.  Were they lightly recruited or unknown prior to college?  Did they actively choose those schools or more so sort of fell into them?  Did they initially reject legit D1 offers to start out D3?  ECSU to URI feels a little more straightforward while Gettysburg to Santa Clara is a huge move.

ECSU Stats
Scoring Statistics
Scoring Statistics
Season   GP           GS           G           A          PTS         SH          SH%SOG   SOG%   GW   PK-ATT   MIN
2018           19           18           9           3           21          43          0.209   26   0.605   4   0-0          1015
2019           20           20          21           7           49          86          0.244   58   0.674   6   1-1          1267
Total           39           38          30          10           70         129          0.233   84   0.651   10   1-1          2282

Biography
2018: LEC Rookie of the Year...LEC First-Team...3x LEC Rookie of the Week on Oct. 28th, Oct. 1st, and Sept. 17th...appeared in 19 games, 18 as a starter...lead the team with 9 goals and 21 points and contributing 3 assists... points while averaging 53.4 minutes per game...in LEC regular season, appeared in 8 games, 7 as a starter...scoring 4 goals and 1 assist for 9 points...had a season high of 5 points, 2 goals, and 1 assist against two different teams...ranked 4th in the LEC for goals...

High School:played soccer and ran indoor track all four years... played volleyball for three years... was a varsity starter in soccer for two years, indoor track for three years and volleyball for three years... Named all conference in the 2017 soccer season... named all state in indoor track (2017-2018)... named all state in volleyball in his senior year...helped beat hillhouse in state tournament by scoring two goals and had one assist.. helped volleyball team make it to semi-finals... made it to the New England championship in indoor track...was named captain of soccer team... contributed 17 goals and 12 assists in his senior year soccer season.. helped senior year soccer team place 2nd in the conference and 8th in the state.

PERSONAL: born Patrick K. Agyemang November 7, 2000... Parents: Emelia and Patriac... Siblings: Enoch, Emmanuel... Major: Health Science... Career Objectives: Physical Therapy/Nurse... Residence: East Hartford, CT...

URI info
Career Honors & Awards

2022 Atlantic 10 Preseason All-Conference Team
2022 United Soccer Coaches Division I Players to Watch List
2021 Atlantic 10 All-Conference First Team
2021 Atlantic 10 All-Championship Team
2x College Soccer News National Team of the Week (Sept. 21, 2021; Nov. 8, 2021)
TopDrawerSoccer National Team of the Week (Sept. 21, 2021)
2x Atlantic 10 Player of the Week (Sept. 20, 2021; Oct. 25, 2021)
2021 (Redshirt Junior)

Led the team in goals (10), assists (6) and total points (26).
Scored his first goal of the season in URI's 2-0 win over Central Connecticut.
Scored an 88th-minute equalizer in Rhody's 1-1 double-overtime draw with Providence.
Assisted on Isak Oystese's game-winning goal at Merrimack.
Recorded a hat trick, scoring all three Rhody goals in a 3-1 victory over Brown
Picked up an assist in URI's double-overtime win against #22 VCU.
Had an assist at UAlbany.
Scored in a win over St. Bonaventure.
Recorded a goal and an assist in URI's win over La Salle.
Scored URI's only goal of the game at #4 Saint Louis.
Registered two goals and an assist to lead Rhode Island to a 3-1 win over Davidson in the A-10 Quarterfinals.
Assisted on the lone goal of the game for the Rams in a 2-1 A-10 semifinal loss to Duquesne




PaulNewman

Lol @ECSU....I can find all that.  You didn't answer a single question I asked. But nice cut and paste.