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D3soccer.com => Men's soccer => Topic started by: PaulNewman on August 26, 2019, 08:24:35 PM

Title: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on August 26, 2019, 08:24:35 PM
I didn't know teams could play this early (and I assume this wasn't an exhibition game), but you just never know what you are gonna get for a game at Crestview Hills, KY (home of the Thomas More Fights Saints).  Or maybe you do know what you're gonna get.  Centre beats TMC 2-1 and both teams shared a bunch of yellows and at least three reds.

Let the madness begin lol.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Caz Bombers on August 26, 2019, 09:35:36 PM
counted for Thomas More but it was an exhibition for Centre. I bet those cards count though.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on August 26, 2019, 11:08:31 PM
Rowan over Eastern in a scrimmage tonight 2-0.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on August 27, 2019, 03:10:00 PM
Do we know if there will be a top 25 preseason poll for the men as there is for the women?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on August 27, 2019, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on August 27, 2019, 03:10:00 PM
Do we know if there will be a top 25 preseason poll for the men as there is for the women?

I'm assuming it will be released in the next day or so before the season kicks off. I believe there are more voters for the men's poll than the women's so I'm guessing the delay is waiting on votes to come in. I could be wrong. I'm a much bigger fan of the D3Soccer.com preseason rankings because they are usually voted on by a panel versus the United Soccer Coaches poll because that one simply rolls forward from the end of the previous season.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on August 27, 2019, 05:09:28 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on August 26, 2019, 08:24:35 PM
I didn't know teams could play this early (and I assume this wasn't an exhibition game), but you just never know what you are gonna get for a game at Crestview Hills, KY (home of the Thomas More Fights Saints).  Or maybe you do know what you're gonna get.  Centre beats TMC 2-1 and both teams shared a bunch of yellows and at least three reds.

Let the madness begin lol.
With TM you know what you're going to get  ;) ;) ;) ;)

Looks like their NAIA conference has several games already in the books.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on August 29, 2019, 02:36:17 PM
https://www.d3soccer.com/top25/men/2019/preseason

Men's preseason ranking released. Pretty good write-ups on each team.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on August 29, 2019, 03:01:28 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on August 27, 2019, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on August 27, 2019, 03:10:00 PM
Do we know if there will be a top 25 preseason poll for the men as there is for the women?

I'm assuming it will be released in the next day or so before the season kicks off. I believe there are more voters for the men's poll than the women's so I'm guessing the delay is waiting on votes to come in. I could be wrong. I'm a much bigger fan of the D3Soccer.com preseason rankings because they are usually voted on by a panel versus the United Soccer Coaches poll because that one simply rolls forward from the end of the previous season.

Well we at D3soccer.com (https://www.d3soccer.com/) are glad you are a fan of our preseason rankings because we have lost all of them from 2012 through 2018 and if you know where they are, we'd love to have them back to include in our Top 25 archive (https://www.d3soccer.com/top25/men/archive) page.  PM me with details.

I kid, I kid.  Prior to this season, D3soccer.com (https://www.d3soccer.com/) has only ever done preseason rankings once . . . in 2011.  That year it was a poll of our weekly Top 25 panelists.  This year it is NOT a poll, but rather an in-house staff-developed ranking. 

We'd love to be able to offer a preseason ranking every year, but only if it can be done well and be meaningful.  In other words, only if it can be based on the consideration of factors such as graduation/retention of players/starters/standouts, percentage of goals and assists attributable to returning players, class distribution, positional distribution of returning players and starters, coaching changes, etc. And there's even more nuanced ways of looking at this type of data. In a perfect world, you'd also know about key losses to injury and players returning from a red-shirt year, and you'd have a feel for the strength/potential of incoming recruiting class.

This year is a trial run of sorts for us to . . .
• see the extent of the effort and challenge to gather and compile the available relevant data
• see if the data can be summarized in a way that allows for meaningful and efficient analysis
• evaluate if it feels like it would be reasonable for our weekly Top 25 panel to effectively review and compare the sizable summary of data to arrive at a ranking in the limited time they have, especially when they are in the middle of gearing up for a new season.
• gage the confidence level in making a ranking based primary on the numerical data versus doing additional research into the things not captured or completely reflected in the mere numerical data, and how much investment in additional research is required to reach a satisfactory level of confidence to develop and publish a ranking
• etc. . . .
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on August 29, 2019, 03:03:16 PM
Just sent you guys an e-mail, Christan, but I'll say this publicly as well: Thanks for all of your work on this.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on August 29, 2019, 06:22:18 PM
Well, yet another failed attempt to refrain from posting....and always tapping out on that score so quickly!

The new D3 poll looks to be very well done and obviously took quite a bit of work.

I'm guessing RH had a hand in some of the Kenyon/Case/OWU portions as well as others, and insightful comments as always.  Maybe he didn't though because Kenyon didn't play OWU in the NCAA 2nd round as last year was the first in a very long time when OWU didn't make the tournament.

The analogy about Case perhaps starting a run similar to Kenyon's overall made sense.  I think the one difference is that the UAA top to bottom is tougher and harder to prognosticate.  I think we can say that Case made a brilliant hire and they gave him some time to build something.  Seems like a good guy too.

I'm surprised to see Kenyon rated so highly.  The comments are true in terms of raw results compared to other programs since 2013/14....few have won more.  Kenyon lost one game all last year but only ended up with a Sweet 16 to show for it.  The year before was supposed to be a great one but Myers tore his ACL in the NCAA 1st round and Kenyon was dismissed by Otterbein in a comedy of errors.  The Lords are either the most snake-bitten team or biggest chokers of the last half-decade...and perhaps along with F&M the most overdue to reach a Final Four. 

I thought last year would be the start of a decline or at least when OWU would re-overtake Kenyon as the top program in that part of the world.  I think some others thought so too.  That definitely could happen this year.  Myers was a tough graduation and now they are without Lowry, Anderson and a handful of other productive players in last year's graduating class.  Brown definitely passed the test last year and I think this year is another big one in terms of whether they are at a point in the program where they reload or have to rebuild.  Brown brought in another big class (the biggest since 2011) with 15 frosh.  Two are from Iceland, one from the UK and another from Poland.  They should have great depth and definitely have some speed with guys like Carson and Upton back for their soph years. 

P.S.  OWU legend Travis Wall moved on to be head coach at St Olaf.  Will be interesting to see if Bianco or Wall end up at OWU if and when Coach Martin steps aside.  I would think Case and the UAA would be hard to leave but especially as an alum of OWU and given its standing as one of the special programs in the country that opportunity might be too enticing to pass up.  Of course Martin might coach for another 10-15 years.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d3commenter on August 30, 2019, 08:28:03 AM
Opening weekend is upon us
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on August 30, 2019, 09:43:34 AM
Well done review of Tufts.  Every year some of us seem to think Tufts is overrated or just not as good as advertised and yet they seem to exceed already very high expectations almost every year.  And in general they also seem to get a little better each year.  I agree with the suggestion that this year's edition might be the strongest ever.  Shapiro has been a marvel, turning the program from an afterthought to "will they sneak in the tournament" to will they win the whole thing yet again.  The attacking line-up described in the review is indeed frightening.  IMHO Tufts is now equal to Messiah as a program and currently enjoys a decent margin of superiority over the rest of the current field.  So yes, until proven otherwise, the clear and obvious #1 team in the country.  Any loss, during the season or in the tournament, will be a surprise.

Gestalt shifts are also huge.  Some teams look at reaching the Final Four or winning a title as a huge mountain to climb.  Tufts now I think presumes they are going to win and the task looks so very doable from their vantage point.  One or maybe two very manageable games in the opening weekend (which generally gives top New England teams attractive matchups).  Get two solid wins (now likely at home) in the second weekend against squads they are favored to beat and they're in the Final Four.  And we all know what they've done once they get there.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on August 30, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
PaulNewman, I think it's hard to argue with your assessment of Tufts as a truly established national power.  Over the past 5-6 years they have outperformed Messiah in terms of advancing deep into...and winning several times...the NCAA tournament.  It wasn't that long ago that they were virtually an automatic "W" each season for most of the other NESCAC teams.

However, I don't completely agree with your statement that "every loss would be a surprise".  At the risk of stating the obvious, the NESCAC is highly competitive and most teams can beat any other team on a given day.  As one example, Bowdoin had Tufts dead to rights last year until Tufts scored a fluky last second goal that sent the game into OT.  Yeah I know, great teams always find a way to win...but you can't always count on Lady Luck to fall your way every time... 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tufts lost 2 or more NESCAC games this season.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on August 30, 2019, 05:25:30 PM
Quote from: truenorth on August 30, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
PaulNewman, I think it's hard to argue with your assessment of Tufts as a truly established national power.  Over the past 5-6 years they have outperformed Messiah in terms of advancing deep into...and winning several times...the NCAA tournament.  It wasn't that long ago that they were virtually an automatic "W" each season for most of the other NESCAC teams.

However, I don't completely agree with your statement that "every loss would be a surprise".  At the risk of stating the obvious, the NESCAC is highly competitive and most teams can beat any other team on a given day.  As one example, Bowdoin had Tufts dead to rights last year until Tufts scored a fluky last second goal that sent the game into OT.  Yeah I know, great teams always find a way to win...but you can't always count on Lady Luck to fall your way every time... 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tufts lost 2 or more NESCAC games this season.

Percentages are on your side, but they did go undefeated a year ago.  No slight intended towards the rest of the NESCAC, but there is a gap between Tufts and the next best NESCAC squads, just as there is a gap imho between Tufts and the rest of the country.  I think they will be better than last year even if the records doesn't reflect that.  Which doesn't mean a Colby or a Conn Coll can't get a sneak win over the Jumbos or that they get knocked out of the NCAA tourney in Pks or a late goal.  3 titles in 5 years.  The other two years they lost in Sweet 16 and Elite 8 on last second and OT goals.  Could have been five in a row or could have been zero.  You have to be fortunate too.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on August 30, 2019, 07:01:57 PM
If you're looking for a good game with atmosphere and great commercials catch the seemingly odd opening day matchup with Roanoke @ Lynchburg.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: deutschfan on August 30, 2019, 07:21:46 PM
An excellent game earlier was Hobart v. Messiah.  Messiah won their last meeting 1-0 in the NCAAs in 2017.  Hobart's 12 seniors with long memories and looking for national recognition return the favor today.  Messiah faces a tough Ithaca squad this weekend and could easily be 0-2 by Labor Day.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on August 30, 2019, 07:49:41 PM
Yep. It could be a long season for the Falcons... or it could be like 10 when they started with a loss to the Statesmen and then ran the table for another title.
We may only have to wait another few hours to have a more informed opinion on the matter.
A program this strong though could lose the weekend and turn it around very easily.

Ithaca is a very bad opponent tomorrow for the Falcons.
They should have participated in last years dance, and might have done better than many who went, but this year their destiny is in their hands and a win tomorrow would do a lot for their confidence and the league as a whole.

Already a few good games in this very very young season.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on August 30, 2019, 07:51:13 PM
Quote from: deutschfan on August 30, 2019, 07:21:46 PM
An excellent game earlier was Hobart v. Messiah.  Messiah won their last meeting 1-0 in the NCAAs in 2017.  Hobart's 12 seniors with long memories and looking for national recognition return the favor today.  Messiah faces a tough Ithaca squad this weekend and could easily be 0-2 by Labor Day.
Hobart played very well on both ends, Messiah pretty well defensively but not as well offensively. Before seeing the starting lineups, I thought the Falcons might come away from this road trip with one win (probably tomorrow) and one tie. They usually take several games to get their one-touch game tuned up each year, and Hobart always comes ready to play.

What I didn't expect, is that four starters didn't play a single minute. I assume they must be injured--if so, I hope not for very long--but they nevertheless didn't play. These include the two best players on the team (IMO), outside back Shay Quintin (who is also a crucial piece of the offense), AA MF (last year mostly a CB) Luke Groothoof, who was expected to be the leading scorer this year, his brother Jonathan Groothoff (10 assists last year from the wing), and Brit Haseltine, who didn't start last year only because he played behind Nick West. Except for Quintin, they all scored goals during the tournament, so they are certainly expected to carry the load this year, especially on the offensive end where the Falcons looked sub-par today.

So, with no intent to take anything away from the victors, who deserved to win, I don't think we know where the Falcons are yet this year. Far from it. I only hope that this season is not a repeat of last season, when most starters not named West spent at least some time, often significant time, on the injured list. They rarely played full strength last year, including in the tournament, and that trend continued today--and presumably tomorrow as well.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: NokeAlum15 on August 30, 2019, 07:58:38 PM
Roanoke and Lynchburg playing a non-conference match in Lynchburg.

At the half:  Roanoke 4  Lynchburg 0
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on August 30, 2019, 10:47:11 PM
Well, the last time Messiah lost on opening day was to . . . . . Hobart, back in 2010 and has already been mentioned, they then ran the table to a national title with a 23-1-0 record.  That won't be happening this year. Way too many injuries for a squad that even healthy may have struggled some this year.  First, perhaps the most costly injury (and the one I heard a rumor about prior to today) is to All-American Luke Groothoff who could miss a good chunk of the season. What was news to me today was that three seniors are out injured.  Jonathan Groothoff (Luke's older brother) is lost for the whole season, playing career over unless he'd redshirt. His wing play and service (10 assists in 2018) will be sorely missed. Then there's leftback and 4-year starter Shay Quintin who also missed a third of last season and Brit Haseltine, Nick West's replacement.  So for now it's 8 of last year's starters who they are without (5 to graduation, 3 to injury) and a sub who scored 6 goals and was to be a starter this year. I'm not seeing any Nick West-like 30-goal tear coming to compensate for the injuries to a squad that already had question marks.  Going to be a lot of growing pains for Messiah this season.

As to today's game--not impressed with either Hobart or Messiah.  I have the wife and four kids with me, so I don't get to watch as concentrated and distraction-free as I'd like, so my impressions are more general than specific. I looked like on the goal that Messiah just failed to mark the scorer on a corner kick oops, long throw-in from the left that went to the far side of the 6-yard box.  Neither side really created many good scoring chances.  Messiah had a lot of poor first touches, lost the ball on the dribble too much, and weren't quick and decisive enough with the ball--things you hope are just first week, knocking the rust off issues. I did like what I saw from freshman Jake Lent-Koop at centerback.  Despite only two freshmen in the starting line-up for the Falcons, a fair portion of the game saw 4 to 6 freshmen on the field at a time.  Hobart on the other hand had 10 upperclassmen in their line-up.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: deutschfan on August 31, 2019, 04:58:13 PM
Messiah starts 0-2 with zero goals in two games.  Offense was as anemic as the scoreline.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on August 31, 2019, 05:22:28 PM
Here's an interesting tidbit.  CNU defeated Greensboro 4-0 in their opener, and 31 players saw time (29 field player and 2 GKs).  Most interestingly, 25 of the 29 saw double digit minutes.  I've always been a proponent of emptying the bench when the game is one-sided, but very few coaches actually do it.  Kudos to Chezem for doing so in his first game as a head coach.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on August 31, 2019, 09:14:06 PM
Well, Messiah looked much, much better today.  Moved some players around.  Still trying to figure out the best line-up after four preseason injuries, three in the past week, so players are being tried in new positions to cover for those out.  And on the whole, I though Messiah was playing better up until their unfortunate own goal (scrum in box, third clearance attempt ricochets off back of teammate and into the goal). The goal obviously lifted Ithaca and after they survived a short Messiah push to equalize, the Bombers had their best spell of the game with the ball in Messiah's half a lot and threatening to double their advantage with a goal of their own.  The Falcons survived without conceding and were about to make it a 50-50 game again before pushing hard for an equalizer in the final minutes.

After leaving yesterday's game somewhat pessimistic, today's performance was encouraging. Especially if Ithaca is a legitimate Top 25 team and when you consider that at times Messiah had 7 freshman on the field together. However, two losses significantly narrows the room for error to make the NCAA tournament, especially when your Strength of Schedule isn't great (on paper I would think Messiah's SoS will be lower this year, but you never know). At least an easier schedule, if in fact it is, could help minimize the consequences of the injuries and youth/inexperience until they start getting players back. Despite being encouraged by the Falcons overall play, finishing remains a question mark.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2019, 10:58:27 AM
I elected to post on this thread because the OAC deserves some national attention.  The early results are impressive....JCU over Kenyon, Capital over CWRU, Mt Union over CMU (at CMU), ONU over Hope (at Hope), Otterbein over SLU.  I may be missing a couple.  Two seasons ago the OAC had a tremendous season but this edition of the conference may have the potential to exceed those results.  Stay hungry, though, as it appears most of the results noted so far this year easily could have gone the other way or ended in draws.  JCU, Capital, ONU and Mt Union (based on early returns) appear to be the class of the OAC and will be interesting to see how those four shake out.  I'm guessing Otterbein and Marietta are a full step below those but still decent and competitive.  JCU appears to be the leader in the clubhouse in Great Lakes right now with the wins over Rochester and Kenyon looming large as two likely ranked wins which gives those wins extra significance (for Kenyon as a rival Great Lakes team the loss was almost like a double loss when thinking about what would be required to land over JCU when it comes time for the truly meaningful regional rankings the last 3 weeks of the season).  At any rate, we will have an better sense of JCU after a few more games and when we see how the OAC shakes out for JCU with Capital, ONU and Mt Union looking like real challengers.  The JCU-OWU match will be big for Great Lakes too.

I'm curious from anyone who knows whether there has been a sea change in recruiting in Ohio with attractive recruits being spread out more.  Kenyon historically hasn't relied heavily on Ohio for recruiting but they have snagged at least a few good ones the last couple of years.  I always assumed that OWU had the pick of the litter every year (after any D1-bound kids peeled off), and that other Ohio NCAC and OAC schools fought over whoever was left after OWU (and perhaps ONU to some extent).  The Battling Bishops seem to still fill their cupboard pretty nicely but I'm wondering if there is more of a distribution among Ohio colleges than 5 to 10 years ago.  OWU of course also always gets a good to very good out-of-state haul.

I missed the first part of the Kenyon-Colorado College game but apparently the Lords came out flying but then sputtered and found themselves down 1-0 in the 2nd half (and easily could have been down 2-0).  Credit to Kenyon for hanging in and getting a solid win but they have a very long way to go.  Colorado looked good but not great.  The Lords need to be much stronger and effective in the midfield.  They are really missing John Penas and I might have missed it but I haven't heard the voice of the Lords, Clayton Coffman, say if he is injured or how badly.  He would help them play quicker and with better possession.  They are not a big or muscular team and they must play faster and more cleanly with better chances created in the final third.  So far way too many long balls and too many glaring defensive lapses.  The GK is undersized and athletic...generally solid but occasionally seems to lose his mind and get caught way out of position.  Tempered expectations are in order, but in fairness I've never seen Brown have so many players that he's trying to figure out.  They are playing a ton of kids, but as long as they stick together, they will be better once a lineup and sub pattern crystallizes.  Speaking of Clayton Coffman, he does a great job calling the games imho.  One correction....he said Kenyon had not lost two games in a row since 2014.  Not true as that squad was 18-2-2 (and ranked #2 in the country for a good part of the season).  You have to go back to 2011 to find consecutive losses. 

Great slate of games today....

Centre @ Haverford (intriguing matchup especially for Centre who I can't recall playing anyone that far East)

Babson @ Brandeis (a New England staple and one where D3soccer.com's own Blooter will be providing on-scene commentary (assuming he isn't in a layover in Reykjavik)

W&L @ Hopkins (great game and a frontrunner for game of the day)

Cortland @ Rowan (oh well, there's another contender for game of day)

North Park @ Chicago (enough said)

Mary Washington @ Montclair

SLU @ Oneonta

Gettysburg @ Christopher Newport

Maryville @ Lynchburg (are the Hornets already in trouble?)

Transy @ Hope

Wheaton (Ill) @ Kenyon

Colorado Coll @ OWU

York @ E'town

Ohio Northern @ Calvin (intriguing after ONU's win at Hope)

Vassar @ Stevens

C-M-S @ Texas-Dallas (C-M-S trying to consolidate huge win over Trinity (TX))

Bonus games for Mid-Atlantic folks....NYU @ Drew and Dickinson @ Lebanon Valley

And of course, opening weekend in the good 'ol NESCAC....

Bates @ Hamilton (tough first game travel-wise for the Bobcats but Bates is my sleeper team in NESCAC this year)

Conn Coll @ Colby (can the Mules build off last year's miracle run into the NCAA tourney?)

Tufts @ Williams (I reiterate that I don't see anyone other than perhaps Amherst getting 3 points versus the Jumbos)

Bowdoin @ Amherst

Middlebury @ Wesleyan (Wesleyan needs and/or is due for a good season but I don't see that happening)

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 07, 2019, 11:38:12 AM
Maybe not the "best" game of the weekend, but the Gettysburg/CNU game is still VERY interesting to me.  Gburg smacked Catholic, who was the big favorite to win the Landmark but then lost to TCNJ who was picked to finish 9th in the NJAC.  Was Catholic overrated? TCNJ underrated? Will Gburg be hot/cold again all season like last year when they finished 8-8-1 but beat ranked Hopkins on the road and drew with ranked RUN also on the road? And how will CNU be under first year coach Chezem? Will they find their winning ways again after having their first losing season in 23 years?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2019, 12:11:38 PM
I was thinking about this the other day and forgot to post it....

Mike Singleton is one of the really good coaches in D3.  A UPenn product, he had a decent to good run at MIT (where I'm sure recruiting is challenging), and now he is turning also very academically competitive W&L kind of quietly into a national power.  He reminds me of Tufts' Shapiro a little bit, albeit perhaps more reserved and introverted.  It's hard to imagine anyone other than Tufts or Messiah duplicating what Shapiro has done (3 titles in 5 years and a favorite to get #4 this year), but W&L should be strong as long as Singleton stays there.  That Lexington, VA area is gorgeous but likely is a tougher sell for some recruits than Tufts which is just outside Boston.  Anyway, I will always remember what Singleton said to a group of parents at a ODP tryout in his role as State Coach of Massachusetts -- "If any of you are here with thoughts that this will lead to a college scholarship please leave now and put the money in a college fund."  That was about 13-14 years ago.

Speaking of coaches, who are some of the other best young coaches in D3?  Bianco for CWRU has to be up there.  Margolis at Brandeis.  Serpone at Amherst.

Messiah has a great coaching tree but I don't know where all of them are.  OWU has at least a few out there.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2019, 07:38:43 PM
Kenyon survives in 2OT on the old ridiculous confusion fake argument free kick play.  Wheaton probably deserved to win.  Kenyon even in OT doesn't seem to know how to play compact defense as Wheaton had huge open spaces and got in behind the D and in on the GK multiple times.  Kenyon does have a bunch of kids who can score, though.  First goal came from a frosh who I don't know but who is from the town next door 3 miles away.

Curious about the W&L game if anyone has details.

A lot of interesting results today.

Oh, and All American Sam Justice who was the best defender in the country in 2014 texted me earlier to correct what I said about two consecutive losses.  They lost two -- to Case in OT and away at DePauw -- back to back in  the 20-3 2016 season that ended in heartbreak in the 109th minute courtesy of Mr. Majumder.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: ChrisJS on September 08, 2019, 02:05:33 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2019, 10:58:27 AM
I elected to post on this thread because the OAC deserves some national attention.  The early results are impressive....JCU over Kenyon, Capital over CWRU, Mt Union over CMU (at CMU), ONU over Hope (at Hope), Otterbein over SLU.  I may be missing a couple.  Two seasons ago the OAC had a tremendous season but this edition of the conference may have the potential to exceed those results.  Stay hungry, though, as it appears most of the results noted so far this year easily could have gone the other way or ended in draws.  JCU, Capital, ONU and Mt Union (based on early returns) appear to be the class of the OAC and will be interesting to see how those four shake out.  I'm guessing Otterbein and Marietta are a full step below those but still decent and competitive.  JCU appears to be the leader in the clubhouse in Great Lakes right now with the wins over Rochester and Kenyon looming large as two likely ranked wins which gives those wins extra significance (for Kenyon as a rival Great Lakes team the loss was almost like a double loss when thinking about what would be required to land over JCU when it comes time for the truly meaningful regional rankings the last 3 weeks of the season).  At any rate, we will have an better sense of JCU after a few more games and when we see how the OAC shakes out for JCU with Capital, ONU and Mt Union looking like real challengers.  The JCU-OWU match will be big for Great Lakes too.

I'm curious from anyone who knows whether there has been a sea change in recruiting in Ohio with attractive recruits being spread out more.  Kenyon historically hasn't relied heavily on Ohio for recruiting but they have snagged at least a few good ones the last couple of years.  I always assumed that OWU had the pick of the litter every year (after any D1-bound kids peeled off), and that other Ohio NCAC and OAC schools fought over whoever was left after OWU (and perhaps ONU to some extent).  The Battling Bishops seem to still fill their cupboard pretty nicely but I'm wondering if there is more of a distribution among Ohio colleges than 5 to 10 years ago.  OWU of course also always gets a good to very good out-of-state haul.

I missed the first part of the Kenyon-Colorado College game but apparently the Lords came out flying but then sputtered and found themselves down 1-0 in the 2nd half (and easily could have been down 2-0).  Credit to Kenyon for hanging in and getting a solid win but they have a very long way to go.  Colorado looked good but not great.  The Lords need to be much stronger and effective in the midfield.  They are really missing John Penas and I might have missed it but I haven't heard the voice of the Lords, Clayton Coffman, say if he is injured or how badly.  He would help them play quicker and with better possession.  They are not a big or muscular team and they must play faster and more cleanly with better chances created in the final third.  So far way too many long balls and too many glaring defensive lapses.  The GK is undersized and athletic...generally solid but occasionally seems to lose his mind and get caught way out of position.  Tempered expectations are in order, but in fairness I've never seen Brown have so many players that he's trying to figure out.  They are playing a ton of kids, but as long as they stick together, they will be better once a lineup and sub pattern crystallizes.  Speaking of Clayton Coffman, he does a great job calling the games imho.  One correction....he said Kenyon had not lost two games in a row since 2014.  Not true as that squad was 18-2-2 (and ranked #2 in the country for a good part of the season).  You have to go back to 2011 to find consecutive losses. 

Great slate of games today....

Centre @ Haverford (intriguing matchup especially for Centre who I can't recall playing anyone that far East)

Babson @ Brandeis (a New England staple and one where D3soccer.com's own Blooter will be providing on-scene commentary (assuming he isn't in a layover in Reykjavik)

W&L @ Hopkins (great game and a frontrunner for game of the day)

Cortland @ Rowan (oh well, there's another contender for game of day)

North Park @ Chicago (enough said)

Mary Washington @ Montclair

SLU @ Oneonta

Gettysburg @ Christopher Newport

Maryville @ Lynchburg (are the Hornets already in trouble?)

Transy @ Hope

Wheaton (Ill) @ Kenyon

Colorado Coll @ OWU

York @ E'town

Ohio Northern @ Calvin (intriguing after ONU's win at Hope)

Vassar @ Stevens

C-M-S @ Texas-Dallas (C-M-S trying to consolidate huge win over Trinity (TX))

Bonus games for Mid-Atlantic folks....NYU @ Drew and Dickinson @ Lebanon Valley

And of course, opening weekend in the good 'ol NESCAC....

Bates @ Hamilton (tough first game travel-wise for the Bobcats but Bates is my sleeper team in NESCAC this year)

Conn Coll @ Colby (can the Mules build off last year's miracle run into the NCAA tourney?)

Tufts @ Williams (I reiterate that I don't see anyone other than perhaps Amherst getting 3 points versus the Jumbos)

Bowdoin @ Amherst

Middlebury @ Wesleyan (Wesleyan needs and/or is due for a good season but I don't see that happening)

Hi I'm new here as a poster but have followed posts here on and off for a while as my son (Thomas Sloan) played soccer for Mount Aloysius for two seasons in the AMCC then another two seasons for Marietta in the OAC where he graduated this year. He also had the chance to move to a NCAC side but chose Marietta.

On the point of recruitment strategy in Ohio, I know for a fact that Marietta are looking to the UK. My son was the first ever in their soccer program but it seemed to work well and they have since brought in another three British players.

I'm also aware Heidelberg are looking to the UK also as I met both Heidelberg and Marietta coaches when they travelled to St George's Park in the UK last year for a series of soccer trials organised by international sports recruiters.

This isn't new of course, in the AMCC Mt Aloysius and Medaille have brought over players in recent years. I also recall a couple of the season ago the North Park starting line up in the NCAA final sounded like a Scandinavian touring team.

I think international players and UK players especially bring a different dynamic to the game, specifically in areas around aggression, mentality and soccer "savviness". The amount of times I've screamed "put it in row Z!" at the TV screen while watching a game, only to groan as someone has been caught in possession in a really dangerous area of the pitch and a goal has ensued.

Technically, I've been impressed with american players and I would suggest that they are generally better than their UK teammates in this respect and are also fitter, but sometimes lack the right decision making ability and would rather try a Cruyf turn, a hollywood pass or a 35 yard shot than a simple pass or a punt upfield. It may not be pretty but sometimes the best option imho.

I can't vouch for other teams in Ohio in terms of their recruitment but suspect they don't look internationally to the same degree and I haven't come across many British players in the OAC at least.

It's early in the season but the OAC looks to have a decent number of competitive teams again, like a couple of seasons ago, with JCU and Capital currently having the edge in my opinion over Mt Union, then ONU, Marietta, Heidelberg and Otterbein at roughly the same level.

Anyway, looking forward to watching the season unfold even without my son's involvement 🙂

Chris
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2019, 03:32:54 PM
Johns Hopkins should rise to #2 in the country after wins against W&L and Montclair St 5-2 and 2-0.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 08, 2019, 04:16:29 PM
#13 NYU should drop from #13 to #130 after going 0-3  :D
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 08, 2019, 04:25:55 PM
I think amherst is really underrated this year. This is their most talented group since the title team in 15. Winning 3-0 versus bowdoin has to be the most impressive nescac result of the week, and given that they play Tufts at home on their small, slow grass field, I think they are at least co-favorites to win the nescac.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on September 08, 2019, 05:59:24 PM
D3Soccer had them ranked 10th preseason so def not underrated.  But yes, they'll be a strong side this year and will probably be in the top 25 for most of the season
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 09, 2019, 07:36:10 AM
Paul - the most significant change for OAC and some NCAC teams is the influx of new, young Ohio coaches.  Not only are the new coaches deeply rooted in Ohio soccer, they all have strong pedigrees as former players.  These coaches use their roots to create pipelines, which not only offer solid candidates but become less strenuous for the coach to recruit.  Success strengthens interest, current players connect to recruits from the feeder programs from which they came - makes the coaches life a little easier.

Coach Poe at Mt. Union is just getting started; Coach Van der Sluijs at Wilmington will mine Dayton and Cincinnati. Coach Griffiths at Otterbein, former MLS player, ran a very successful club program 10 miles away from Otterbein - very well connected to central Ohio. Coach Zidron at Wooster (three tough, 1 goal losses this season - do not be fooled by their record) - Cincinnati HS player, long connection with Denison - in his 5th year. Coach Yost is affiliated with one of the strongest boy's clubs in the Midwest, having gone to nationals 3-4 years now?  Ohio Premier's coaches include Yost, Griffiths, Matt Weiss (OWU asst), Billy Thompson (storied college and professional career, Capital asst) and until taking the St. Olaf job, Travis Wall.

Cincinnati becomes a very interesting market now that Thomas More is out of D3.  They featured 20+ Cincy kids every year - there is some formal arrangement with the Archdiocese of Cincinnati and Thomas More where Catholic HS students having some type of preferred entry to TM.  The logical choice for D3 kids to go would be Mt. St. Joseph, but as that program really struggles those players will be looking elsewhere.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on September 09, 2019, 10:16:29 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2019, 03:32:54 PM
Johns Hopkins should rise to #2 in the country after wins against W&L and Montclair St 5-2 and 2-0.

Strong wins, likely #7 in nation.   #1 in Mid Atlantic region

Rowan case is interesting, great result vs Cortland St and drops to CSI the following day...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 10, 2019, 02:34:10 PM
First USC poll is out. (https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 10, 2019, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 10, 2019, 02:34:10 PM
First USC poll is out. (https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/rankings/college-rankings/ncaa-diii-men/)

Wonder when Trinity(TX) was last unranked (and can't disagree).  ]
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 10, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
Watching some of Amherst today.  Opining based on streaming video (versus live) lowers the value of opining, but nevertheless Amherst does not appear to be in Tufts' class and does not look like the #2 team in the land.  That's not to say that Amherst won't dig out a win versus Tufts at home or in the NESCAC tourney, and that's also not to say that Amherst won't be a load for the rest of the NESCAC to handle.  My guess is that there is a risk of making too much out of the 3-0 win versus Bowdoin as this Polar Bear edition may not be your grandfather's Bowdoin (so to speak) or put another way, not 2010 or even 2018 Bowdoin.  Of course early results tend to be overvalued because what else do we have thus far, but still....for me, Tufts is a full step above the rest of the NESCAC and their biggest opponent may be themselves (injuries, looking past someone, championship fatigue, etc).  BTW, Messiah (or Tufts) fans, is there such as thing as "championship fatigue"?

The D3 soccer rankings are light years beyond the other poll, partly because D3 soccer actually thinks about it.  Four Great Lakes teams in the top 10 and six in the top 20?  Nice, but perhaps a little generous (and that's not even counting usual top 25 Carnegie Mellon).  #6 is way too high for Kenyon at this point, but being dropped entirely out of the top 25 in the other poll was way off as well.  A single or even two losses didn't keep other teams from keeping a favorable ranking in that poll.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 10, 2019, 07:22:54 PM
Hope up 2-0 on Chicago....looks like two scores within 35 seconds in the 5th and 6th minutes.  Great video.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on September 10, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2019, 07:22:54 PM
Hope up 2-0 on Chicago....looks like two scores within 35 seconds in the 5th and 6th minutes.  Great video.

Beautifully struck free kick pulls one back for Chicago just before the half.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 10, 2019, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
Watching some of Amherst today.  Opining based on streaming video (versus live) lowers the value of opining, but nevertheless Amherst does not appear to be in Tufts' class and does not look like the #2 team in the land.  That's not to say that Amherst won't dig out a win versus Tufts at home or in the NESCAC tourney, and that's also not to say that Amherst won't be a load for the rest of the NESCAC to handle.  My guess is that there is a risk of making too much out of the 3-0 win versus Bowdoin as this Polar Bear edition may not be your grandfather's Bowdoin (so to speak) or put another way, not 2010 or even 2018 Bowdoin.  Of course early results tend to be overvalued because what else do we have thus far, but still....for me, Tufts is a full step above the rest of the NESCAC and their biggest opponent may be themselves (injuries, looking past someone, championship fatigue, etc).  BTW, Messiah (or Tufts) fans, is there such as thing as "championship fatigue"?

The D3 soccer rankings are light years beyond the other poll, partly because D3 soccer actually thinks about it.  Four Great Lakes teams in the top 10 and six in the top 20?  Nice, but perhaps a little generous (and that's not even counting usual top 25 Carnegie Mellon).  #6 is way too high for Kenyon at this point, but being dropped entirely out of the top 25 in the other poll was way off as well.  A single or even two losses didn't keep other teams from keeping a favorable ranking in that poll.

Good take on Amherst, Paul — they look good but not quite on Tufts' level. I do think Tufts will be a bit more average defensively this year, but they have enough offense and a strong enough midfield that it won't really matter. Amherst will definitely score goals, but probably not as many as Tufts. I was pretty surprised to see Brandeis in the USC top 25 — and I was equally stunned to see TEN other teams with losses in the top 25 considering these are the first rankings.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 10, 2019, 09:41:04 PM
I would also say to not underestimate the fact that Tufts ended Amherst's season last year, in rather convincing fashion at that. Coach serpone is a master motivator and you can guarantee the Amherst players have been reminded of that 3-0 loss during every sprint, morning lift, and training session the past 8 months. I remember how pumped we were to get another shot at kenyon after they knocked out us out the year before.

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: EastCoastSoccer on September 11, 2019, 12:18:16 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on September 10, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2019, 07:22:54 PM
Hope up 2-0 on Chicago....looks like two scores within 35 seconds in the 5th and 6th minutes.  Great video.

Beautifully struck free kick pulls one back for Chicago just before the half.

Besides about 15-20 minutes in the first half, Chicago completely dominated that game in possession. It takes a lot to come back from 2-0 in the first five minutes against a well coached and organized Hope side. This Chicago team is different with only two seniors, but seems to be carrying that chip on their shoulder to each and every game. It will be interesting to see what they can do this year.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 11, 2019, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: EastCoastSoccer on September 11, 2019, 12:18:16 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on September 10, 2019, 07:49:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 10, 2019, 07:22:54 PM
Hope up 2-0 on Chicago....looks like two scores within 35 seconds in the 5th and 6th minutes.  Great video.

Beautifully struck free kick pulls one back for Chicago just before the half.

Besides about 15-20 minutes in the first half, Chicago completely dominated that game in possession. It takes a lot to come back from 2-0 in the first five minutes against a well coached and organized Hope side. This Chicago team is different with only two seniors, but seems to be carrying that chip on their shoulder to each and every game. It will be interesting to see what they can do this year.

Again, watching by video may be deceptive, but my impression is that Hope was equal to or better than Chicago throughout the match.  Chicago cuts the lead to 2-1 with 13 seconds left in the 1st half off a free kick and doesn't get an equalizer until 1:23 left in regulation.  Hope also had multiple other good chances to score over the course of the game.  I didn't watch every second of the 2nd half but I didn't have the impression that Hope was parking the bus.  Stats were basically even with the exception of Chicago having more shots in the 2nd period while chasing an equalizer.  Great dramatic comeback win for the Maroons and heartbreak for Hope.

My take on Amherst above may be way off the mark especially if they have the overall talent suggested.  My bias towards Tufts is that the Jumbos have won 3 out of the last 5 national titles and this year's edition very well may be their strongest squad yet with at least two-deep talent at almost every position.

I am curious about the vindication factor that D4Pace suggests.  Does that account for Tufts getting by Kenyon in the 109th minute (off a kind of trick play that the Tufts kids said had never worked before) and 108 minutes of a 0-0 game with the Lords missing a point blank chance to win themselves in the 108th minute (Koval wide right from the six)?  Brandeis getting a sort of out of the blue winner in OT against Tufts in 2017?  Can Serpone get Amherst any more pumped up than he usually does?  Anyway, I can definitely see Amherst getting a win in the regular season or even a NESCAC semi or final, but I'd still have my money on Tufts in a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 tilt.  Tufts has a bigger team than Amherst overall and can't be bullied by the Mammoths, and I'll have to be convinced that Tufts doesn't have the edge in overall skill and team cohesion/chemistry.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Will this be the year where a powerhouse program doesn't win it all? It seems like that's what we are in the making of here early on.

Tufts is a handful to deal with but only takes one team to knock them off come tournament time.
Messiah not the Messiah of the early and mid-2000's and have been suspect since 2013 team won it all.
Amherst once again strong but only one team is winning it from the NESCAC if any do.
Centennial and UAA schools are always hyped but haven't taken that last step. Is this the year they do?
Outsiders with a real chance may come from the SUNYAC or out west this year? Cortland and Oneonta have had much success and Trinity is always a threat despite their early woes. Does the Midwest have anyone besides Loras, Chicago, and St. Thomas that can be a threat? Can the South Atlantic or Great Lakes provide a team that looks destine to compete like the Rutgers Camden or Ohio Wesleyan's of old?

Lots of what ifs and unknowns but I think we are in the making of a special season where some of the more non-traditional teams make deep runs into the NCAA tourney and may even pull off the miracle of beating a powerhouse school like Tufts. Time will tell  ;D
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 11, 2019, 04:21:27 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on August 27, 2019, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on August 27, 2019, 03:10:00 PM
Do we know if there will be a top 25 preseason poll for the men as there is for the women?

I'm assuming it will be released in the next day or so before the season kicks off. I believe there are more voters for the men's poll than the women's so I'm guessing the delay is waiting on votes to come in. I could be wrong. I'm a much bigger fan of the D3Soccer.com preseason rankings because they are usually voted on by a panel versus the United Soccer Coaches poll because that one simply rolls forward from the end of the previous season.

I just noticed that the USC preseason poll, because it's actually just a re-post of the previous season's final poll, showed a non-Division III team as receiving votes in the Division III poll.  UT-Tyler actually was already NOT a Division III member last season as they began the reclassification process to Division II.  But they played one last season in the ASC and basically a Division III schedule last year.  However, this year they are playing in a Division II conference and a full Division II schedule and yet were receiving votes in the Division III preseason poll ! ! !   Why do they pretend that they do a preseason poll?!?!  No one requires them to do a preseason poll, so if they aren't going to actually do one, why go through with the whole charade?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 11, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Will this be the year where a powerhouse program doesn't win it all? It seems like that's what we are in the making of here early on.

Tufts is a handful to deal with but only takes one team to knock them off come tournament time.
Messiah not the Messiah of the early and mid-2000's and have been suspect since 2013 team won it all.

You seem to have forgotten that Messiah won it all again in 2017.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PMAmherst once again strong but only one team is winning it from the NESCAC if any do.
Centennial and UAA schools are always hyped but haven't taken that last step. Is this the year they do?
Outsiders with a real chance may come from the SUNYAC or out west this year? Cortland and Oneonta have had much success and Trinity is always a threat despite their early woes. Does the Midwest have anyone besides Loras, Chicago, and St. Thomas that can be a threat?

Once the new backline has settled in and a couple of key players come back from injury within the next couple of weeks, North Park should be very good. And Calvin looks like it's picking up the pace after a slow start; the Knights have been too good for too long to ignore.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PMCan the South Atlantic or Great Lakes provide a team that looks destine to compete like the Rutgers Camden or Ohio Wesleyan's of old?

I'm very impressed by John Carroll's early-season body of work.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PMLots of what ifs and unknowns but I think we are in the making of a special season where some of the more non-traditional teams make deep runs into the NCAA tourney and may even pull off the miracle of beating a powerhouse school like Tufts. Time will tell  ;D

New blood is a good thing for any college sport. It's a sign of a more competitive environment.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 12, 2019, 02:55:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 11, 2019, 08:48:22 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Will this be the year where a powerhouse program doesn't win it all? It seems like that's what we are in the making of here early on.

Tufts is a handful to deal with but only takes one team to knock them off come tournament time.
Messiah not the Messiah of the early and mid-2000's and have been suspect since 2013 team won it all.

You seem to have forgotten that Messiah won it all again in 2017.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PMAmherst once again strong but only one team is winning it from the NESCAC if any do.
Centennial and UAA schools are always hyped but haven't taken that last step. Is this the year they do?
Outsiders with a real chance may come from the SUNYAC or out west this year? Cortland and Oneonta have had much success and Trinity is always a threat despite their early woes. Does the Midwest have anyone besides Loras, Chicago, and St. Thomas that can be a threat?

Once the new backline has settled in and a couple of key players come back from injury within the next couple of weeks, North Park should be very good. And Calvin looks like it's picking up the pace after a slow start; the Knights have been too good for too long to ignore.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PMCan the South Atlantic or Great Lakes provide a team that looks destine to compete like the Rutgers Camden or Ohio Wesleyan's of old?

I'm very impressed by John Carroll's early-season body of work.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PMLots of what ifs and unknowns but I think we are in the making of a special season where some of the more non-traditional teams make deep runs into the NCAA tourney and may even pull off the miracle of beating a powerhouse school like Tufts. Time will tell  ;D

New blood is a good thing for any college sport. It's a sign of a more competitive environment.

Love the comments! How could I miss Calvin?! My mistake definitely should have included them in the Mid-West section. I am intrigued by North Park and also to see if Wheaton can get going again. As for the Messiah comment. 10 titles in 14 years and a 5th of the last 6 at that point in 2013 is far different than 1 in the last 5. A great accomplishment no doubt but certainly a different vibe surrounding the Falcons in the last half decade compared to 2000 thru 2013. I should even make it 2014 as that team should have won it but Tufts started the dynasty and it's been all Jumbos ever since! 100% agree on the new blood statement as well! Makes it interesting and exciting to see what programs can flourish and how long can they sustain it.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 12, 2019, 03:07:16 PM
There was nothing suspect at all about that 2017 Messiah team, which clearly was first in class and deserved to win it all.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 12, 2019, 03:07:16 PM
There was nothing suspect at all about that 2017 Messiah team, which clearly was first in class and deserved to win it all.

Greg--I don't think MAF is trying to discredit the 2017 Messiah team at all. I read it as the program was stronger earlier on and lately it hasn't been as strong by their standards and expectations. I would like to add that I think the competition is a little better and more widespread amongst teams lately, making it even more difficult for powerhouses like Messiah to continue that kind of dominance we saw from 2000-2013 as MAF had mentioned.

Some teams to watch this year that I haven't seen mentioned are Stevens, Oneonta and Christopher Newport. Stevens has been consistently good and made some nice runs in NCAA's but Oneonta and CNU have been down a touch from previous years but have started this campaign strong. Look for them to get back to their winning ways and be dangerous foes come tournament time. Centre also picking up some nice early season results. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 13, 2019, 10:45:41 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AM
Some teams to watch this year that I haven't seen mentioned are Stevens, Oneonta and Christopher Newport.

I've mentioned Stevens and CNU as teams of interest this year.  I think Stevens conference move is a huge win for them, though I think they lost a nice player in Kochman who was the 3rd or 4th leading scorer last year as a freshman. They have a local rival game with RUN this weekend and then travel to F&M for a huge game on Wed.

And I'm intrigued with CNU as they have a new coach and are coming off their first losing season in 25 years! They're headed to Texas this weekend for two big games against Trinity and Hardin Simmons. Two wins there could define their season, though admittedly Trinity seems to be down this year.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 12, 2019, 03:07:16 PM
There was nothing suspect at all about that 2017 Messiah team, which clearly was first in class and deserved to win it all.

Greg--I don't think MAF is trying to discredit the 2017 Messiah team at all. I read it as the program was stronger earlier on and lately it hasn't been as strong by their standards and expectations.

Sorry, but there's really no other way to read the phrase, "... and have been suspect ever since 2013 team won it all." The 2017 team is included within that phrase, thanks to the term "ever since", is it not?

Nobody's arguing about the first part of his statement, which is that the Messiah dynasty of the first decade and a half of this century is kaput. That's an incontrovertible fact. But when you win the national championship -- and, what's more, when you deserve to win the national championship -- as the Falcons did two seasons ago, there is no way in the world that you should be put under the damning rubric of the word "suspect".

Your milder reading of MAF's intent may be more along the lines of what he truly meant, but I don't know MAF. All I can go by is what he actually wrote, and what he actually wrote about the 2017 Messiah team is incorrect.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AMI would like to add that I think the competition is a little better and more widespread amongst teams lately, making it even more difficult for powerhouses like Messiah to continue that kind of dominance we saw from 2000-2013 as MAF had mentioned.

Not to keep pushing back, but MAF's a little ambivalent on that point. On the one hand, he's advocating for that better-competition-and-more-diffused-success angle you mentioned. On the other hand, however, he's very much of the mind that this has not interfered at all with the creation of a genuine dynasty -- Tufts, this time, rather than Messiah.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 13, 2019, 12:41:54 PM
Mr. Sager, I agree with everything you wrote EXCEPT the phrase with emphasis of "deserved to win".  Are you saying deserved in a singular sense, or would you agree there might have been at least a handful of deserving teams (like most years).  For instance, I think many of us considered Chicago deserving that year and if North Park had prevailed against Messiah I certainly wouldn't have called NP undeserving.  Or are you arguing something far more literal...that if you win the title you deserve it, so then the idea of a non-deserving winner becomes meaningless?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 12:54:12 PM
No, I meant it in the second sense, that Messiah was among the crème de la crème. I agree with you that it wouldn't have been out of the blue for Chicago or NPU or Brandeis (or Tufts, I presume, although I didn't see the Jumbos that season) to have walked away with the Walnut & Bronze two autumns ago in Greensboro.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 13, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 12, 2019, 03:07:16 PM
There was nothing suspect at all about that 2017 Messiah team, which clearly was first in class and deserved to win it all.

Greg--I don't think MAF is trying to discredit the 2017 Messiah team at all. I read it as the program was stronger earlier on and lately it hasn't been as strong by their standards and expectations.

Sorry, but there's really no other way to read the phrase, "... and have been suspect ever since 2013 team won it all." The 2017 team is included within that phrase, thanks to the term "ever since", is it not?

Nobody's arguing about the first part of his statement, which is that the Messiah dynasty of the first decade and a half of this century is kaput. That's an incontrovertible fact. But when you win the national championship -- and, what's more, when you deserve to win the national championship -- as the Falcons did two seasons ago, there is no way in the world that you should be put under the damning rubric of the word "suspect".

Your milder reading of MAF's intent may be more along the lines of what he truly meant, but I don't know MAF. All I can go by is what he actually wrote, and what he actually wrote about the 2017 Messiah team is incorrect.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AMI would like to add that I think the competition is a little better and more widespread amongst teams lately, making it even more difficult for powerhouses like Messiah to continue that kind of dominance we saw from 2000-2013 as MAF had mentioned.

Not to keep pushing back, but MAF's a little ambivalent on that point. On the one hand, he's advocating for that better-competition-and-more-diffused-success angle you mentioned. On the other hand, however, he's very much of the mind that this has not interfered at all with the creation of a genuine dynasty -- Tufts, this time, rather than Messiah.

Never talked poorly on the Messiah 2017 team or the program in general in fact it's always been the opposite. I also never said they weren't deserving so please don't put false words in my mouth. And so you think the competition has gotten worse over the last 5 or 6 years? Interesting. I think there is far more continuity both regionally and nationally between teams than ever before. Teams are beating the Messiahs and Tufts more frequently than the powerhouses of old that never dropped more than a game and went on to win it all. Heck Messiah already has 3 blemishes this season and we are only 5 games in! Nothing in my post was meant to be argumentative or spark a cruel debate but was hopeful in hearing other people's thoughts on the D3 landscape this year. I think you can see from my previous posts and +/- score that I don't rub people the wrong way often but I guess I can't speak for you Mr. Sager. By all means my deepest and sincere apologies to you and yours. Wish you nothing but the best! 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 13, 2019, 02:40:53 PM
Interesting coincidence maybe or planned but there have already been 7 games between SUNYAC / NJAC teams within the first 2 weeks. The SUNYAC has an impressive 5-2-0 record v NJAC in 2019. One of the NJAC's Wins was Rowan and that Win could be huge down the line.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 13, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 12, 2019, 03:07:16 PM
There was nothing suspect at all about that 2017 Messiah team, which clearly was first in class and deserved to win it all.

Greg--I don't think MAF is trying to discredit the 2017 Messiah team at all. I read it as the program was stronger earlier on and lately it hasn't been as strong by their standards and expectations.

Sorry, but there's really no other way to read the phrase, "... and have been suspect ever since 2013 team won it all." The 2017 team is included within that phrase, thanks to the term "ever since", is it not?

Nobody's arguing about the first part of his statement, which is that the Messiah dynasty of the first decade and a half of this century is kaput. That's an incontrovertible fact. But when you win the national championship -- and, what's more, when you deserve to win the national championship -- as the Falcons did two seasons ago, there is no way in the world that you should be put under the damning rubric of the word "suspect".

Your milder reading of MAF's intent may be more along the lines of what he truly meant, but I don't know MAF. All I can go by is what he actually wrote, and what he actually wrote about the 2017 Messiah team is incorrect.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2019, 08:18:59 AMI would like to add that I think the competition is a little better and more widespread amongst teams lately, making it even more difficult for powerhouses like Messiah to continue that kind of dominance we saw from 2000-2013 as MAF had mentioned.

Not to keep pushing back, but MAF's a little ambivalent on that point. On the one hand, he's advocating for that better-competition-and-more-diffused-success angle you mentioned. On the other hand, however, he's very much of the mind that this has not interfered at all with the creation of a genuine dynasty -- Tufts, this time, rather than Messiah.

Never talked poorly on the Messiah 2017 team or the program in general in fact it's always been the opposite. I also never said they weren't deserving so please don't put false words in my mouth.

I'm not putting false words in your mouth. In fact, I've quoted your words repeatedly:

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2019, 03:46:39 PM
Messiah not the Messiah of the early and mid-2000's and have been suspect since 2013 team won it all.

My argument has always been with your calling the 2017 Messiah team "suspect". If what you're saying is that a team could be suspect yet still deserving of a national title ... well, OK, it's your words, but that statement doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 13, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
And so you think the competition has gotten worse over the last 5 or 6 years? Interesting.

I never said that. In fact, I'm agnostic on the issue. I simply don't see enough coast-to-coast D3 men's soccer to formulate what I would consider to be an educated opinion regarding competitiveness on the grand scale. After all, there's 416 D3 men's soccer programs to eyeball! I'm willing to do some D3 tourney research on the topic, because I find your theory intriguing, although looking at old tourney brackets is not the same thing at all as watching a steady diet of Maine-to-California soccer.

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 13, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
I think there is far more continuity both regionally and nationally between teams than ever before. Teams are beating the Messiahs and Tufts more frequently than the powerhouses of old that never dropped more than a game and went on to win it all. Heck Messiah already has 3 blemishes this season and we are only 5 games in! Nothing in my post was meant to be argumentative or spark a cruel debate but was hopeful in hearing other people's thoughts on the D3 landscape this year. I think you can see from my previous posts and +/- score that I don't rub people the wrong way often but I guess I can't speak for you Mr. Sager. By all means my deepest and sincere apologies to you and yours. Wish you nothing but the best!

You misunderstand me. You didn't "rub me the wrong way" at all. On the contrary, I enjoyed your post and I liked and appreciated the lead-in into further conversation that you provided. I simply objected to your referring to the 2017 Messiah team as "suspect" ... and I'm trying to figure out how you square the circle of calling D3 men's soccer more competitive across the board over the past five seasons while also maintaining that Tufts has been a genuine dynasty during that time.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 13, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
I'm trying to figure out how you square the circle of calling D3 men's soccer more competitive across the board over the past five seasons while also maintaining that Tufts has been a genuine dynasty during that time.

Just because you have a so-called dynasty doesn't mean the overall product isn't better. Is the level of competition from #2-#20 greater in the past 5 years than it was previously? I don't have an opinion but I would think MAF would argue the bar has been raised across the board, which makes Tufts success all the more impressive.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 13, 2019, 04:28:21 PM
A couple more thoughts especially since I have been one of the posters touting the superiority of Tufts and have been cited for overestimating them throughout seasons the past 3-4 years.  I learned my lesson in 2014 when early in the season I questioned what Shapiro was doing with Gus Santos and they were struggling a bit and then of course went on to win their first national title. 

I think the question of whether there's been some slippage at the very top or just more teams that are very competitive is very much open.  Maybe it's both, or maybe neither.  I don't know enough about the 2000s and whether during Messiah's grand run there was another handful of very good teams and teams that challenged Messiah each year along the way (like games that could have gone either way and I'm reminded of the many references to I think 2010 and Lynchburg.

I do believe Tufts is in the midst of at least a mini-dynasty.  In 5 years they've won more national titles than historically famed programs like OWU and Wheaton.  Just a remarkable run.  BUT, it could have been different.  I was curious about the 20-0 and 21-1 type seasons.  Messiah was 20-2 in 2017 so that meets the high bar but if you look closer they got by Castleton (yes, Castleton) 1-0, then Hobart 1-0, then Stevens 3-2, UR 2-0, Brandeis 3-2 and NP 2-1.  They could have lost one of those or the year before they could have beaten Calvin on their home field and challenged in 2016.  They should have won in 2014 as that inho was one of, if not the best, D3 team I've seem in my 8-10 years of following closely, BUT, Tufts got them on that Muhlenberg field, played an almost flawless game, got the very early goal they needed, and then went on the very DESERVEDLY take the championship.  That Tufts team entered the tourney at 11-2-4 (not overwhelmingly impressive while keeping in mind that NESCAC schools play less games).  Anyway, and this is where fortune plays a role, who knows if Tufts would have won ANY titles if they didn't get by Messiah that day, and perhaps Messiah would have had two more.  The Jumbos looked even less overwhelming in 2016, as they entered the tourney (with questions about even getting in) at a mediocre-looking 9-5-2.  They went on the road and beat Rowan and then due to a series of unpredictable events received home field for the sectional.  They struggled to get by UMass-Boston, and that with UMass playing without 2-3 of their studs including their best player after the Haverford debacle.  Who knows if they would have beaten Haverford at Haverford.  Then the next day they get their grudge match with Kenyon that couldn't host because of some vicious bacteria that ate up the field in Gambier (and there was no way the NCAA was going to send two Boston teams and Kenyon to Trinity (TX) when by season results Trinity probably should have hosted).  The Lords demolished that Trinity squad with a sterling record and the Tufts game could have gone either way (109th minute GW) just as could have occurred the year before in Gambier.  Tufts won two titles in finals against Calvin and I think most of us would say that a split of those titles would have been fair (while acknowledging that 'fair' is perhaps not exactly the right word.  Tufts won fair and square and they took whatever good fortune there was cashed in.  Momentum grows momentum and now we have a juggernaut.  No one will be shocked if Tufts hoists the trophy again this year.  BTW, the 2018 version of Tufts was closer to the ideal of undefeated or 1-loss seasons, as they finished 18-0-3.  Amherst was 18-1-2 in winning the title in 2015.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 13, 2019, 04:41:48 PM
W&L appears to be rebounding nicely....up 5-1 on Emory with 14-15 min to go.

Some good games tonight and again tomorrow.  Rowan at Chicago, Chris Newport at Trinity, and St. Thomas at C-M-S stand out, but there are other potential good ones with Wartburg at GAC, Oglethorpe at Lynchburg, Knox at Centre, Loras at St. John's, Dominican at Wash U, Carthage at St. Olaf, and Puget Sound at Chapman.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 13, 2019, 04:42:06 PM
I think you can both believe (a) that the level of play has risen across the board and there's more parity than ever making it harder then ever to be consistently at or near the top, and (b) acknowledge that Tufts has nevertheless managed to do just that.

Certainly the overall talent/skill level has risen across Division III over the past two decades (from the time the Messiah dynasty was just getting started to the present). What the average player today can do is far ahead of what the average player could do 20 years ago. In general, today's top players are better than the top players back than; however, I think the gap between the top players and the average player has shrunk significantly.

Whether there is more parity at the top and more teams year-in, year-out who are good enough to be in the Top 10/Top 25/Top 40 conversations, that's not as clear to me.  It would seem so.  But is it more a case of increased turnover in who the Top 40 teams are year to year and shorter runs in the Top 25 for all but the very top programs?  In any given year, are there defintely more teams with realistic shot at the national title now than 20 years ago?  It feels like it, but I'm not sure.

Consequently, I am not completely convinced that what Tufts has done over the last 5 years is more difficult and impressive than what Messiah did in any 5-year stretch you want to pick out. Maybe it is. The one thing that does strike me as more impressive about Tufts is how they came out of nowhere almost.  Messiah was a team that was usually in the Top 25 conversation for a decade and a half before winning their first title. Messiah went to two Final Four in the late 80's. Messiah was a known quantity and had a certain level of pedigree, even if they weren't yet one of the elite programs like Ohio Wesleyan or Wheeaton were back then.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 13, 2019, 05:05:42 PM
For context re:Messiah...

2011 -- Beat eventual champ OWU first game of season and finished 18-1-1 with shock exit courtesy of Neumann

2012 -- Title - 23-0-2

2013 -- Title -- 24-1-1

2014 -- 21-1-1 (exit via Tufts)

2015 -- only "down" year at 14-5-1

2016 -- 19-1-3 (upset by Calvin in Sweet 16 in Grantham on 108th minute GW by Jacob Witte who got GW in 84th minute the year before in Elite 8 Kenyon game)

2017 -- Title -- 24-2

2018 -- 19-1-3 (undefeated and strongly favored to at least get to Final Four but exited in Elite 8 versus UR)

2019 -- Substantial injuries thus far

P.S.  I was very happy for Rochester last year but a Messiah vs Tufts semi would have been great drama....interesting that they have not met again since 2014
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 13, 2019, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 13, 2019, 05:05:42 PM

2018 -- 19-1-3 (undefeated and strongly favored to at least get to Final Four but exited in Elite 8 versus UR)

2019 -- Substantial injuries thus far

P.S.  I was very happy for Rochester last year but a Messiah vs Tufts semi would have been great drama....interesting that they have not met again since 2014

This is all accurate, but I said at the time, when Messiah's 4-year MF engine Samuel Ruiz Plaza went out for the season before the 16-8 games, they were probably toast. In other words, they weren't going to make it to the Final Four, or if somehow they did, they weren't going to win it. I had commented that, the 3 players I most feared losing, in order, were West (duh, as I said at the time), Ruiz Plaza, and Luke Groothoff. They are the same 3 men who ended up on the AA list. There might have been, somewhere, a better point guard than Ruiz Plaza, but I simply did not see anyone better, not even Bryce Ikeda of Rochester (taking nothing away from a guy who fully deserved the accolades). Which is saying something. It's really, really hard to get ready for games at that level when you suddenly lose someone like that. Rochester, to their credit, surprised the Falcons by pressuring the CBs to impede the ball from moving up field, but I have to think that Ruiz Plaza's skills and experience were partly why that strategy was so effective in that game.

On top of that, a high level CB, Cooper Robbins, missed (I think) the whole tournament (or almost all of it) with a concussion protocol. Other guys were also hurt, but those two injuries were huge, occurring when they did. If somehow the Falcons had ended up playing Tufts, it wouldn't have been the matchup everyone's been waiting for--it wouldn't have been the full "Varsity" starting for the Falcons. I think I also said that, at the time. At least Cooper has been healthy so far in 2019, but neither Groothoff brother has yet played a single minute; and Luke was expected to move up front and be the leading scorer, as he was in the spring games.

The injuries so far this year seem no less important and widespread than those at any point last season, but at least they are coming at a time when you still keep playing after a loss. Last year, the Falcons' injured list almost the entire season was populated at any one time with 2-4 starters, almost everyone other than West. If that continues, it will be a very long season in Grantham, perhaps even a season in which (if they fail to win the AQ) their season ends in early November.

Just to throw this out there: of all the Falcons' tournament games in the period PN listed (2011-2019), IMO their single most impressive effort was the 2017 Elite Eight win over Rochester. This is based not only on the quality of the opposition and the statistics, but on the eye test: it was played on the backup turf field (owing to ponding on the main field), with fans just a few feet from the players, so fans could see everything happen right in front of them. Nothing escaped your view. And, to my eye, it was almost total domination of a very talented, exceptionally well coached opponent that in some other year might have won it all. For very large stretches in that game, Falcon feet were the only ones touching the ball--not even the occasional foot in to knock it away briefly. Rochester simply never had a chance to tie or win, and that was the Falcons' doing, not any failing on Rochester's part. At halftime, I mingled with the Rochester fans (who were classy and appreciative of the level of soccer being played that whole weekend by all the teams), and they were saying that they hadn't expected Messiah to be more skilled than Chicago--but that's what they were seeing evidence of. We'll never know if that opinion would have emerged from a Chicago-Messiah game later on, but that's what most surprised them about the Falcons.

I am convinced that if the Tufts-Messiah game had taken place that year (obviously a hypothetical, since Brandeis knocked out Tufts in 2 OT before the Final Four), the Falcons would have won--probably coming from behind, as they often did that year, and absolutely not in PKs after a scoreless tie, since that team scored at least one goal in every game. But, again, we'll never really know.

None of this, if true (other views may well differ from mine), detracts or is intended to detract from the legitimacy of Tufts' current dynasty. They are presently sitting on top of the mountain, they earned it, they probably will continue to do so again this year, and unless the Falcons heal up and get it together there won't be a Jumbo-Falcon game 2019 either. As much as I'd love to see it.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 13, 2019, 06:34:52 PM
Paul we have been robbed of the Tufts-messiah rematch two years in a row. The 2017 tufts team that had conceded only 1 goal (off the amherst long throw) all season lost in the 109th minute on a fluky back pass goal at home in the elite 8. Would have been a classic unstoppable offense, in which nick west was scarily enough the second or third option, against arguably the best defensive side in dIII history

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 13, 2019, 06:36:18 PM
hahaha falconer we were thinking about the same thing. Although i'm going to contradict you that Tufts would have won in 1-0 game because they hadn't conceded a goal from the run of play all season. Something even more impressive than not being shut out all season.

Also Tufts was nursing even more injuries that year.  The elite 8 game was without two of their best players, AA Tyler Kulscar, future AA gavin tasker, future AA Joe Braun was limited to less than 20 minutes, and the starting GK was out as well.   
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 13, 2019, 10:47:50 PM
CNU and Trinity draw 1-1. And if I'm reading the box score correctly, Trinity went down to 10 men in the 57 minutes and then 9 men in the 66th minute before getting the equalizer in the 83rd minute.  That's a great result for Trinity and a poor result for CNU after grabbing a 15th minute lead.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on September 13, 2019, 10:49:10 PM
A hard fought contest between Chicago and visiting Rowan ends in a 1-1 draw.  Both teams represented their respective conferences well and should be a factor come tournament time.  I've got to say that I kind of missed the commentary of the "dynamic duo" the Maroons have had doing their webcasts on occasion the past couple of seasons.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 11:24:21 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 13, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 13, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
I'm trying to figure out how you square the circle of calling D3 men's soccer more competitive across the board over the past five seasons while also maintaining that Tufts has been a genuine dynasty during that time.

Just because you have a so-called dynasty doesn't mean the overall product isn't better. Is the level of competition from #2-#20 greater in the past 5 years than it was previously? I don't have an opinion but I would think MAF would argue the bar has been raised across the board, which makes Tufts success all the more impressive.

Well, let's let MAF make that argument, then. Meanwhile, I'm still combing through the old D3 tourney brackets, trying to see what sort of comparisons we can make between eras.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 14, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 13, 2019, 10:47:50 PM
CNU and Trinity draw 1-1. And if I'm reading the box score correctly, Trinity went down to 10 men in the 57 minutes and then 9 men in the 66th minute before getting the equalizer in the 83rd minute.  That's a great result for Trinity and a poor result for CNU after grabbing a 15th minute lead.

CNU had the game-winner with 5 seconds left in 2OT waved off on an offsides call.

Maybe this can help get Trinity back on track, though they have been extremely offensively challenged this year.  Holding a quality side like CNU to 3 SOG down 1 and then 2 men for that length of time is some nice defensive work. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 14, 2019, 09:58:45 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 14, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
CNU had the game-winner with 5 seconds left in 2OT waved off on an offsides call.

I just watched the video, and with multiple angles and slow motion, no less! He looked onside to me - they got robbed.
https://www.trinitytigers.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/live/190913_CNU
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 14, 2019, 10:57:03 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 14, 2019, 09:58:45 AM
I just watched the video, and with multiple angles and slow motion, no less! He looked onside to me - they got robbed.
https://www.trinitytigers.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/live/190913_CNU

VAR! (Unless Mike Dean is your VAR, then you'll get nothing, as he demonstrated this morning.)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on September 14, 2019, 04:21:14 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on September 13, 2019, 06:34:52 PM
Paul we have been robbed of the Tufts-messiah rematch two years in a row. The 2017 tufts team that had conceded only 1 goal (off the amherst long throw) all season lost in the 109th minute on a fluky back pass goal at home in the elite 8. Would have been a classic unstoppable offense, in which nick west was scarily enough the second or third option, against arguably the best defensive side in dIII history

Fluky back pass is a bit much. Missed clearance by Mieth more like it, and a good finish to boot ;)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 04:34:39 PM
It was a fluky goal scored off a backpass to the goalie. I don't know how else to describe it. Obviously a great finish but it was just a nothing clearance by the right back that 999999/100000 times is handled easily
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 14, 2019, 05:46:03 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 04:34:39 PM
It was a fluky goal scored off a backpass to the goalie. I don't know how else to describe it. Obviously a great finish but it was just a nothing clearance by the right back that 999999/100000 times is handled easily

D4, fluky is in the eyes of the beholder...or which sidelines you happen to be on when the "fluke" happens.  I always remember the handful of plays that should have made the difference when my team loses.  And when we win I don't remember or at least am completely oblivious to "flukes" that resulted in a win.  Just how being a fan (and/or an alum) works.  In terms of the one you're talking about, what was Tufts doing in a tie  Elite 8 game late in two overtimes on their home field, and same question for why with such intense motivation the game the year before didn't yield a more dominant, cleaner victory instead of reliance on a "fluke" in that same 109th minute?  Didn't the GW versus Messiah come on an equally routine failed clearance ending with a goal that was a scenario unlikely to happen 99 times out of a 100?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 06:17:50 PM
Paul couple points to unpack there. Tufts didn't have a dominant victory the year before because kenyon was a really good team, and that Tufts team didn't dominate anybody all year. That team was less talented on paper than the 2014, 2017, 2018 teams but had the most incredible ability to just simply win games.  I can readily admit the goal against kenyon was a bit of a fluke. A flicked header on a long throw that splits two defenders and falls to the Nate who scuffs it and it goes in. 

The only reason I would call the brandeis goal a fluke is that in general a back pass to a goalie and a clearance is one of the more routine things that happens in soccer.  The shot itself was great and while unlikely I wouldn't call that a fluke.  It was more the blind lump up the field and the failed clearance aspect. 

Completely valid point that the game was still tied at 0-0 in the 109th minute. There were plenty of opportunities to put it away earlier that weren't taken and that always leaves you open to something happening. 

In regards to the Messiah goal it wasn't really a failed clearance. It was a good ball into the box that was then cleared out to the top of the box.  Sure every single goal in soccer is inherently an unlikely event. That's why sabermetrics has failed to take hold like in other sports. Its a game of chaos and a series of unlikely events coming together perfectly a few times every ninety minutes.  So every single beautiful goal or shot could be called a fluke. But I think generally a half volley in the top corner isn't what comes to mind.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 14, 2019, 06:39:07 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 06:17:50 PM
Paul couple points to unpack there. Tufts didn't have a dominant victory the year before because kenyon was a really good team, and that Tufts team didn't dominate anybody all year. That team was less talented on paper than the 2014, 2017, 2018 teams but had the most incredible ability to just simply win games.  I can readily admit the goal against kenyon was a bit of a fluke. A flicked header on a long throw that splits two defenders and falls to the Nate who scuffs it and it goes in. 

The only reason I would call the brandeis goal a fluke is that in general a back pass to a goalie and a clearance is one of the more routine things that happens in soccer.  The shot itself was great and while unlikely I wouldn't call that a fluke.  It was more the blind lump up the field and the failed clearance aspect. 

Completely valid point that the game was still tied at 0-0 in the 109th minute. There were plenty of opportunities to put it away earlier that weren't taken and that always leaves you open to something happening. 

In regards to the Messiah goal it wasn't really a failed clearance. It was a good ball into the box that was then cleared out to the top of the box.  Sure every single goal in soccer is inherently an unlikely event. That's why sabermetrics has failed to take hold like in other sports. Its a game of chaos and a series of unlikely events coming together perfectly a few times every ninety minutes.  So every single beautiful goal or shot could be called a fluke. But I think generally a half volley in the top corner isn't what comes to mind.

You missed my larger point that who we're cheering has a huge impact on perception and memory.  There is an element of fortune in all of this, which is partly why I've argued that Tufts could have won 5 out of 5 or 0 out of 5. 

Are you recalling the fluke of Tufts even having that 2016 game at home?  The UMass factor?  Have you ever thought about Kenyon's near walk-off goal a minute before (on what wasn't a fluke)?  And how was that Tufts team weaker other than coming in 9-5-2?  I mean different in terms of roster?

And I'm confused by the Messiah reference.  It was a ball that had been cleared but wasn't a clear failure?  And yes, great half-volley goal, but how many times does that land top corner out of 20 tries?  Did Messiah have any near misses in that game?  Any posts?  Any missed point-blank chances?

Just to be clear about my point....when Kenyon knocked Wabash out of the NCAC tourney last year on a a literally last second shot I was ecstatic....didn't shed a tear for Wabash, and didn't think about CMU's bad luck when the Lords scored with 30 secs left to tie their NCAA game.  Similarly, CWRU didn't waste much time thinking they were fortunate to advance on PKs.  Calvin didn't apologize or even claim good fortune in 2015 when a routine pass with no pressure somehow skipped through two AA CBs with a whiff leading to an open net.  How much time did you guys spend in the locker room afterwards wondering how in the world Lowry let Nate turn that close to goal or why Clougher didn't jump the flick on?  When my team wins on a wild buzzer beater in March Madness I celebrate and move ahead....the last thing I do is think about any ways we should have lost the game.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on September 14, 2019, 08:21:54 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 14, 2019, 09:58:45 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 14, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
CNU had the game-winner with 5 seconds left in 2OT waved off on an offsides call.

I just watched the video, and with multiple angles and slow motion, no less! He looked onside to me - they got robbed.
https://www.trinitytigers.com/sports/msoc/2019-20/live/190913_CNU

This is garbage mechanics...

Put the flag up to get the Refs attention and talk about it...  Very tough call, but still needs to be addressed and discussed.

In real time, I'm letting that go unless I'm 100% certain #20 did not touch the ball first.

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 14, 2019, 09:08:15 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 14, 2019, 06:39:07 PM

And I'm confused by the Messiah reference.  It was a ball that had been cleared but wasn't a clear failure?  And yes, great half-volley goal, but how many times does that land top corner out of 20 tries?  Did Messiah have any near misses in that game?  Any posts?  Any missed point-blank chances?
Yes. In the closing minutes, FR Colby Thomas had two point-blank shots go awry. Memory is a bit foggy, but I think one hit the crossbar and the other went over the top or was blocked/saved. I wasn't there live, so didn't have a good view of it. Perhaps someone who did see it live can fill in the blanks.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 10:06:19 PM
Oh yeah he absolutely smashed the crossbar and the other one was rolling in until it was slide off the line by a tufts defender.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 10:15:58 PM
Tufts with their best performance of the year tonight against Brandeis.  After a lackluster performance midweek against Keene they were up for it tonight. This is on par with Amherst as the biggest rivalry, and for whatever reason the deis game seems to get even more chippy.  Tonight it boiled over early on.  After the Tufts goal on the corner a meelee broke out and resulted in a brandeis player being sent off. 

Given that Brandeis had to play 60+ minutes down a man its hard to use this game to gauge either team.  Overall, Tufts managed the game, kept the ball, found the second goal, and gave nothing to brandeis while integrating a ton of new players. 

Brandeis was solid but down to ten men posed no real attacking threat. I thought the right back had a good game dealing with constant pressure from tasker and the tufts outside backs. Dylan Hennessy on the other side is one of the top defenders in the country. Brandeis will be a tough team to play all year, but might struggle in the two penalty boxes where ultimately games are won.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on September 14, 2019, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on September 14, 2019, 10:15:58 PM
Tufts with their best performance of the year tonight against Brandeis.  After a lackluster performance midweek against Keene they were up for it tonight. This is on par with Amherst as the biggest rivalry, and for whatever reason the deis game seems to get even more chippy.  Tonight it boiled over early on.  After the Tufts goal on the corner a meelee broke out and resulted in a brandeis player being sent off. 

Given that Brandeis had to play 60+ minutes down a man its hard to use this game to gauge either team.  Overall, Tufts managed the game, kept the ball, found the second goal, and gave nothing to brandeis while integrating a ton of new players. 

Brandeis was solid but down to ten men posed no real attacking threat. I thought the right back had a good game dealing with constant pressure from tasker and the tufts outside backs. Dylan Hennessy on the other side is one of the top defenders in the country. Brandeis will be a tough team to play all year, but might struggle in the two penalty boxes where ultimately games are won.

Always a great game when these two get together, shoutout to Tufts for absolutely locking everything down after going up a man. Didn't give Brandeis  much room to operate, class way to finish it out. Tufts is the real deal, and should be treated as such. Deis needs a full 90 to compete, because if they make a mistake, it will be punished, and usually is.

Deis needs to relax and move forward. The Tufts game would be great to win, but one of the roads to the Final Four will go through Medford, as long as they keep being strong. They need to focus up and not drop any more New England games, and then compete in a surprisingly open UAA.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 14, 2019, 10:42:15 PM
Caught from about 20' to 50'. Pretty comprehensive victory for Tufts, even without the red card. On that note, it looked like the ball went in off Walter from the corner and Daly hugged him celebrating, to which Walter reacted angrily and Daly got shoved over, and somehow Breiter got involved and got sent off. The whole incident was regrettable IMHO but entirely predictable, as rivalry games are when the back-and-forth escalates and ultimately you give the ref a decision to make when you get involved with things like that.

Even beforehand, I didn't see Brandeis winning it. Perhaps I have underestimated them so far but the test today was on a different level than even the Babson rivalry game, the only Brandeis rivalry that is comparable with Brandeis-Tufts. Realistically, I thought Tufts would be too streetwise and physical. The Judges look more dynamic than they did last year, and 3-2-1 given their early run of games isn't terrible, and they are in and around the top 25, but there is still a big gap between them and the top 5-10 teams on current form. That said, the UAA is looking surprisingly open, so while they have some improvements to make they are realistically positioned to compete this year in conference.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 15, 2019, 08:20:09 AM
CNU hosed again, losing in OT to Hardin Simmons on what looked like an offside. So instead of coming home 1-0-1 they come home 0-1-1. That flight is gonna suck and I'd hate to be Lynchburg, their next opponent.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 15, 2019, 09:24:58 PM
Who is #2 in the country?  I can't come up with a team, so I'll pose a different question....who could knock Tufts out in the NCAA tourney presuming they play at their level and don't get stopped in PKs after outshooting some team 32-4?  I'm going to say, in no particular order, Amherst and possibly one other NESCAC team that may emerge (Conn?  Williams?), Oneonta St, Cortland St, Johns Hopkins, Rowan, Chicago and maybe W&L.  And Messiah if fully healthy.  I'm not familiar enough with Stevens to have an opinion on them.  There are teams talented enough but not physical enough. There are probably some teams physical enough that aren't talented enough.  And the necessary physicality doesn't necessarily mean the needed size.  I suppose it's possible that Amherst is the best bet.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on September 15, 2019, 10:19:34 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 15, 2019, 09:24:58 PM
Who is #2 in the country?  I can't come up with a team, so I'll pose a different question....who could knock Tufts out in the NCAA tourney presuming they play at their level and don't get stopped in PKs after outshooting some team 32-4?  I'm going to say, in no particular order, Amherst and possibly one other NESCAC team that may emerge (Conn?  Williams?), Oneonta St, Cortland St, Johns Hopkins, Rowan, Chicago and maybe W&L.  And Messiah if fully healthy.  I'm not familiar enough with Stevens to have an opinion on them.  There are teams talented enough but not physical enough. There are probably some teams physical enough that aren't talented enough.  And the necessary physicality doesn't necessarily mean the needed size.  I suppose it's possible that Amherst is the best bet.

I think that all of the teams you mentioned (and probably a few more) have to potential to go all the way.  No team is heads and tails above all others, and in a one-and-done situation, the possibilities of minor (and even major) upsets are salient.  That's one of the things that makes the tournament so exciting!
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 16, 2019, 11:20:53 AM
Loras vs Chicago on Friday night should be an interesting (and telling) one.  I've given up on using early season games to try to decide how good Loras actually is since their style doesn't lend itself to that. I'm sure they would again be national leaders in goals scored per pass completed.  The only metric that matters, though, is wins and so far this season they've been winning, often with goals late in the game when presumably they've worn down the other team.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 16, 2019, 12:09:17 PM
Quote from: Dubuquer on September 16, 2019, 11:20:53 AM
Loras vs Chicago on Friday night should be an interesting (and telling) one.  I've given up on using early season games to try to decide how good Loras actually is since their style doesn't lend itself to that. I'm sure they would again be national leaders in goals scored per pass completed.  The only metric that matters, though, is wins and so far this season they've been winning, often with goals late in the game when presumably they've worn down the other team.


What is the story with Loras in 2019? They look to be off to a fast start and compared to the past few seasons it has to be welcome but what to make of them?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 17, 2019, 04:19:25 PM
I suspect that the Loras team has had a bit of a mental re-adjustment (courtesy of Rothert) after their last few years of sub-par performances and the new attitude is paying off.  I just saw that the United Soccer Coaches moved them up to #9 and I have a very hard time believing that they are that good, but maybe time will prove me wrong.  They play the same style they always have and have lots of decent players who have a high work rate and wear teams down.  I don't see any superstars on the team, just consistency across the board and little dropoff when players from the bench are called on.  As I said earlier, this week's game against Chicago will be telling.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on September 19, 2019, 10:00:10 AM
a couple of interesting results out of the MIAC last night that should shake thing sup on the national level a bit out of the North Region...

Macalester dumps Augsburg 4-1. While I suspect the game was a bit more even than the score line suggests, MAC appears to have been quite clinical in front of goal last night and the Auggies struggled to put their shots on target. MAC is certainly battle tested, having played a difficult schedule- drawing with U of C, Wash U and Luther, and getting two big wins back to back against Carthage and Augsburg in the last 4 days. The Auggies have looked pretty strong all year, excluding last nights performance. And have a tough match next as they host St. Thomas on Saturday. It will be interesting to see if they can bounce back with against the Thommies. 

Gustavus improves to 5-1 after defeating St. Thomas 2-1 last night, at UST. UST seems to be on a downward slide, can they right the ship? They've arguably played the most difficult schedule in the MIAC so far - Wash U, U of C, Luther, Wartburg, Claremont-M-S, Redlands, GAC - but have failed to get the result in all but 1 match so far. The Thommies are talented, but seem to be lacking the attacking fire power this year. GAC, who's non-conference schedule was rather weak, has at the very least, dispatched those opponents as one would expect and they have 3 of the top attacking players (Statistically) in the nation (Returning AA, Matt Gibbons; D1 Transfer Cole Schwartz; First Year Raphael Cattelin. After a poor defensive showing against Central (7-0-1) on the weekend, Gustavus looked stout at both ends of the field against UST last night, and are a very fun team to watch in the attacking third. If the team can continue to play as they did last night, the Gusties will doubt have a shot at a deep run this year. 

Carelton, picked first in the MIAC coaches poll, is humming along at 5-1, and while they seem to be off the radar a bit nationally, are not a team to be taken lightly and will surely be in the hunt for the MIAC title. The Carley's easily beat a hapless Bethel sided to open conference play last night 3-0. Knights returning stud, Brennan Johnson, is making quick work of the stat sheet, with 3 goals and 6 assists on the season so far, really pulling all the strings in the attack for this years team. Defensively they've only conceded 2 goals and maybe one of the best defensive units in the country.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 19, 2019, 10:58:13 AM
Thanks for the North report above.  Helpful.

Something I've wondered about but never asked....why are there always a big docket of games on Tues and Weds but never on Thurs?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on September 19, 2019, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2019, 10:58:13 AM
Thanks for the North report above.  Helpful.

Something I've wondered about but never asked....why are there always a big docket of games on Tues and Weds but never on Thurs?

I suspect its to allow players enough recovery time to get ready for the weekend slate of games. Although there are a fair amount of back to back games on the weekends, that would totally undermine that theory. I suppose the Sat/Sun, back to back game days, are meant to avoid players missing class, etc.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 19, 2019, 11:58:35 AM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on September 19, 2019, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 19, 2019, 10:58:13 AM
Thanks for the North report above.  Helpful.

Something I've wondered about but never asked....why are there always a big docket of games on Tues and Weds but never on Thurs?

I suspect its to allow players enough recovery time to get ready for the weekend slate of games. Although there are a fair amount of back to back games on the weekends, that would totally undermine that theory. I suppose the Sat/Sun, back to back game days, are meant to avoid players missing class, etc.

Yeah, I thought about that and I think you're probably right about back to back weekend games or the UAA pattern of Friday/Sunday, and, lol, I was thinking Tuesday and Thursday were the same amount of rest to or from a Saturday until a check on the math revealed that a Tuesday game provides two rest days from Saturday instead of just one for a Thursday. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2019, 09:04:16 AM
Just saw Zinn's Contenders and was surprised to not see Hobart listed. Great job overall and I like the spin on this column and the reasoning for the picks. It's a good refresher from a normal poll. Keep em coming Zinn!  ;D

Also, Chicago vs Loras tonight is a big game for both teams. Can't wait to tune in!
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2019, 10:36:33 AM
Shooter's Top 25
1. Tufts (5-0-0)
2. John Carroll (7-0-0)
3. Amherst (5-0-0)
4. Calvin (6-1-0)
5. Kenyon (6-1-0)
6. Hobart (6-1-0)
7. Loras (6-0-1)
8. Hopkins (5-1-0)
9. RPI (6-1-0)
10. Ithaca (6-1-0)
11. Conn Coll (6-0-0)
12. F&M (5-1-0)
13. Chicago (2-0-4)
14. Hardin Simm (7-0-0)
15. Mary Wash (4-1-2)
16. Stevens (6-1-0)
17. CNU (3-1-2)
18. Rowan (4-1-2)
19. Montclair (6-2-0)
20. Cortland (4-2-0)
21. Oneonta (5-1-0)
22. TCNJ (7-1-0)
23. Messiah (4-2-1)
24. W&L (5-1-0)
25. Roanoke (5-0-1)
RV: PSU-Behrend, Catholic, Central, St. Mary's, W. Conn, Gustavus Adolphus, Skidmore, St. Joe's (Me), UW-Superior, Middlebury, Centre, Haverford, Kalamazoo, North Park, UW-Whitewater, MHB, Willamette

Went heavy on the New England and East regions as I think they are the two best regions currently and sport the most depth. Mid-Atlantic and South Atlantic would be next followed by the Great Lakes. The North, Central and West round it out.   
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 20, 2019, 11:00:40 AM
Nice list Shooter. My only knock is W&L (5-1) at #24 when they beat your #15 UWM (4-1-2).
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 11:41:26 AM
I think U of C is getting way too much credit based on the quality of their team the last couple years. With only 2 wins on the season, they are clearly not at the same level, and haven't earned a spot in the top 25 based on their performance in 2019.

Luther and Central out of the ARC are both very strong this year and probably deserve some consideration. You could definitely include Macalester on the that RV list and maybe Carleton. Puget Sound out of the NWC and St. Norbert from the MWC are both off to a solid start and probably belongs in the conversation as well.   
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 20, 2019, 12:14:38 PM
I don't know about "way too much credit" for Chicago. A #10 ranking is probably too high at the moment, but the Maroons are definitely a Top 25 team even at this point. And they will get better as the less-experienced players settle in, because the talent is clearly there and a schedule that tough is going to bring about faster maturity in those less-experienced players.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on September 20, 2019, 01:25:59 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 11:41:26 AM
I think U of C is getting way too much credit based on the quality of their team the last couple years. With only 2 wins on the season, they are clearly not at the same level, and haven't earned a spot in the top 25 based on their performance in 2019.

Luther and Central out of the ARC are both very strong this year and probably deserve some consideration. You could definitely include Macalester on the that RV list and maybe Carleton. Puget Sound out of the NWC and St. Norbert from the MWC are both off to a solid start and probably belongs in the conversation as well.

U of C has played some heavy hitters early and only played two matches at home.   I give them the benefit of the doubt here and would not have them below 15th nationally (at the very worst).  Will be interesting to see how all these 2OT games prep them as the season progresses.
   
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on September 20, 2019, 05:57:24 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 20, 2019, 01:25:59 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 11:41:26 AM
I think U of C is getting way too much credit based on the quality of their team the last couple years. With only 2 wins on the season, they are clearly not at the same level, and haven't earned a spot in the top 25 based on their performance in 2019.

Luther and Central out of the ARC are both very strong this year and probably deserve some consideration. You could definitely include Macalester on the that RV list and maybe Carleton. Puget Sound out of the NWC and St. Norbert from the MWC are both off to a solid start and probably belongs in the conversation as well.

U of C has played some heavy hitters early and only played two matches at home.   I give them the benefit of the doubt here and would not have them below 15th nationally (at the very worst).  Will be interesting to see how all these 2OT games prep them as the season progresses.


I'd say UChicago will have played the toughest schedule in the nation by the end of the regular season. The issue at this point is we still don't know who they are. The Rowan and Wheaton games should have been wins based on how the games were played, and if those had gone down as Ws, everyone would feel more assured about them.
The issue is now they have road games at Loras and Calvin where they are definite underdogs. A split in those contests would be big for their resume. But a week from now, they could just as easily be 2-2-4 and needing a lot of work to even be considered for postseason.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on September 20, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
What I'm really bracing for mentally is 3 hours from now if/when Loras fans (who were as quiet as church mice last season) come out of the woodwork to beat their collective chests about beating a Top 10 team and that they are destined for the Final Four once again ...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 06:45:15 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on September 20, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
What I'm really bracing for mentally is 3 hours from now if/when Loras fans (who were as quiet as church mice last season) come out of the woodwork to beat their collective chests about beating a Top 10 team and that they are destined for the Final Four once again ...

SPOT ON Blue jays! lol

U of C certainly has a great SOS - no argument here. But if you can't produce a 'W' in at least some of those games, are they really a top 15 team, or even a top 25 team? I'm not sold on it yet. This year's squad has yet to earn that distinction in my opinion. Doesn't mean they won't, just that they haven't yet...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 20, 2019, 07:56:09 PM
Loras and Chicago tied 0-0 at half.  Chicago has had possession. Loras has had the better chances. Chicago without Lopez, Koh and Adeosun is not close to the same.  Loras played almost the whole roster in the first half. We will see if that plays dividends later in the game.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on September 20, 2019, 09:11:12 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 06:45:15 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on September 20, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
What I'm really bracing for mentally is 3 hours from now if/when Loras fans (who were as quiet as church mice last season) come out of the woodwork to beat their collective chests about beating a Top 10 team and that they are destined for the Final Four once again ...

SPOT ON Blue jays! lol

U of C certainly has a great SOS - no argument here. But if you can't produce a 'W' in at least some of those games, are they really a top 15 team, or even a top 25 team? I'm not sold on it yet. This year's squad has yet to earn that distinction in my opinion. Doesn't mean they won't, just that they haven't yet...

Of course, they have produced a W in two of those games.   And what's also relevant is that they haven't produced any Ls in any those games.  Every game they've played has been against a top-100 team in the Massey ratings, so their winning % against top-100 teams, as I write this, is .667--exactly the same as (to pick a team not entirely at random) GAC, which is 2-1 vs. top-100 and 3-0 vs. sub-250 teams.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 09:25:12 PM
 I haven't once said GAC should be ranked in the top 25. Frankly, they haven't earned it yet...their most notable win was this week against a St Thomas team that has also struggled to get wins. But hey, their schedule is really strong, so maybe they should be in the top 25 too.

To Chicago's credit, they did pick up a nice win tonight over a strong Loras side.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 20, 2019, 09:47:10 PM
Chicago picks up the win tonight, 2-1.  The Maroons do not have the firepower that they've had in recent years but they managed to capitalize on two Loras miscues.    I thought it was a very even game.  I think Loras had the better chances overall and missed a couple great opportunities.  I had not been impressed by what I had seen of the Duhawks yet this season but I left this game thinking that they are at least a top 25 team.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on September 20, 2019, 10:11:17 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on September 20, 2019, 09:25:12 PM
I haven't once said GAC should be ranked in the top 25. Frankly, they haven't earned it yet...their most notable win was this week against a St Thomas team that has also struggled to get wins. But hey, their schedule is really strong, so maybe they should be in the top 25 too.

Well, of course they should.  The Tommies are 1-3-3 and Chicago was 2-0-4 (now 3-0-4), so exactly the same.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 21, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
Kudos to the couple of folks who saw this coming before now....I assumed Calvin was due for a down year (for them) especially with those dag-gum Vegter men finally out of the picture, but here the Knights are yet again sitting in a prime position to make another great run.  They will just keep winning game after game and we'll turn around and realize they are favorites in a big Sweet 16 match.  Souders is right there with Shapiro in terms of best coaches in D3.

And I want to encourage our friends from Loras.  I like when super-fans post, and Loras legitimately was the #2 to #4 program in the country for a long stretch (sort of like Calvin before Calvin became this last half-decade's Calvin).  We so rarely get posters from beyond Ohio, Chicago and Minnesota I think the site benefits when schools from the West, less talked about areas of the Midwest, and the South (Lynchburg, Roanoke, CNU, etc) get steady support. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: D3Grad on September 21, 2019, 02:15:27 PM
I agree with Gustie that GAC, MAC, Carleton should get a bit more recognition.  They are all solid teams this year and GAC has shown to be quite capable of playing at a high level.  They thing that irks me about the MIAC schools like GAC is they schedule some soft non conference games that do nothing but pad the stats.  They and the rest of the MIAC would greatly benefit from playing teams from other regions that are good.
St. Thomas is certainly having a down year when it comes to their record and stats.  All of the players who had significant roles in the 2016 and 2017 tournament runs are gone.  The new team is organized but lacks an identity.  They do not have anyone who is stepping up to score goals or run the midfield unlike previous years with the Oliver twins and Bottum. Maybe they bit off more they can chew with their early season schedule but I think they can learn from this and maybe it won't be this year but rather a year or two from now where they make a run again. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on September 21, 2019, 04:03:30 PM
Agreed. GAC and Carleton in particular need to improve their scheduling. MAC, Augsburg and UST all did a fairly decent job mixing in some big non-conference games. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 21, 2019, 09:34:41 PM
Loras is taking out frustrations from yesterday's loss and is crushing hapless Iowa Wesleyan 6-0 at the half.  The deep bench guys produced a couple beautiful goals.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 22, 2019, 11:15:53 AM
John Carroll at Carnegie Mellon today at 3pm. Big match for both teams and will be tuning into this one.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 23, 2019, 10:26:42 AM
Let's give this a shot...

MAF Top 25
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. John Carroll
5. Kenyon
6. F&M
7. Loras
8. Hardin Simmons
9. Conn College
10. Hopkins
11. Middlebury
12. Haverford
13. RPI
14. Oneonta
15. Stevens
16. Chicago
17. Ithaca
18. Rochester
19. W&L
20. Hobart
21. PSU Behrend
22. UW-Whitewater
23. Mary Wash
24. Roanoke
25. Western Conn
RV: Eastern Conn, W. NE, Mass Boston, Cortland, Union, Messiah, Gettysburg, Catholic, Stockton, Rowan, Salisbury, Camden, TCNJ, St. Mary's, Ramapo, Centre, CNU, Mount Union, ONU, Capital, Adrian, Kalamazoo, Wheaton, Central, Gustavus Adolphus, Wartburg, Luther, Dubuque, Pudget Sound, Belhaven, Tx Dallas, Southwestern     
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: NokeAlum15 on September 23, 2019, 02:31:43 PM
Yikes!  Think Oglethorpe has had enough of the ODAC?   0-3 vs W&L, Lburg and Noke.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 23, 2019, 04:01:01 PM
I'm puzzled by how high some are on Hardin-Simmons. 

Sure, they are undefeated, but there are 16 undefeated teams that are not ranked.  Now, I don't think those teams have deserved to be ranked up until now except maybe Roanoke who beat Lynchburg and tied ranked Mary Washington.

And it can't be because HSU has played a strong schedule: their opponents are a combined 12-27-8 (.340) and if you remove the one NAIA school their D-III opponents are a combined 10-20-7 (.365). They have only played one team that is over .500 (Christopher Newport at 3-1-3).

It seems like their initial ranking was based mostly on defeating Trinity (Tx.) 3-1. But they were outshot by the visiting Tigers 16-4 (SOG 7-3) and benefited from an own goal. Credit to the Cowboys for converting 2 of their 4 shots, but that box score certainly didn't suggest to me that HSU was a Top 25 team.  And the coach's (USC) rankings after that game only had HSU at #8 in the West Region and unranked nationally, which seemed reasonable to me, unlike the D3soccer.com Top 25 that had HSU at #14, the only West Region team ranked.

After the narrow double-overtime win against Christopher Newport a week later, HSU vaulted to #1 in the West and #8 nationally in the USC polls and climbed to #10 in the D3soccer.com rankings. But they were outshot 19-9 (SOG 12-7) by the long-travelling Captains who played a double-overtime game at Trinity (Tx.) the night before. In the second half it was the visitors out-shooting HSU 12-4 in search of a game-winner. And according to one poster on here, the Cowboys' winning goal in the second overtime period may have been offside.

And we now know that Trinity is in the midst of their worst slump since the mid-90's, so some of the shine on that victory is lost.

On paper, that doesn't add up to Top 25 to me, but I haven't seen them play.  With Shooter and MAF also placing them mid to high in their rankings I figured I'd ask what you guys see in Hardin-Simmons.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 23, 2019, 06:00:53 PM
I believe Mr. Zinner at least in his last offering also had Hardin-Simmons ranked highly, and now I can't seem to find a link to his columns anywhere on the site.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 23, 2019, 09:31:41 PM
MAF, Loras at #7 and Chicago at #16 after Chicago beat the Duhawks?

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 23, 2019, 10:26:42 AM
Let's give this a shot...

MAF Top 25
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. John Carroll
5. Kenyon
6. F&M
7. Loras
8. Hardin Simmons
9. Conn College
10. Hopkins
11. Middlebury
12. Haverford
13. RPI
14. Oneonta
15. Stevens
16. Chicago
17. Ithaca
18. Rochester
19. W&L
20. Hobart
21. PSU Behrend
22. UW-Whitewater
23. Mary Wash
24. Roanoke
25. Western Conn
RV: Eastern Conn, W. NE, Mass Boston, Cortland, Union, Messiah, Gettysburg, Catholic, Stockton, Rowan, Salisbury, Camden, TCNJ, St. Mary's, Ramapo, Centre, CNU, Mount Union, ONU, Capital, Adrian, Kalamazoo, Wheaton, Central, Gustavus Adolphus, Wartburg, Luther, Dubuque, Pudget Sound, Belhaven, Tx Dallas, Southwestern 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 23, 2019, 06:00:53 PM
I believe Mr. Zinner at least in his last offering also had Hardin-Simmons ranked highly, and now I can't seem to find a link to his columns anywhere on the site.

Yeah, I can't find it, either.  If a mod happens to read this, where did Zinn's column go?

Also, regarding H-S:  Massey has them at #49.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 24, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Yeah, I can't find it, either.  If a mod happens to read this, where did Zinn's column go?

Also, regarding H-S:  Massey has them at #49.

You can still find it by searching "Zinn's Contenders" in the search box. ;)

https://d3soccer.com/columns/men-zinns-contenders/2019-1_Mid-September
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Welcome2TheNJAC on September 24, 2019, 11:17:27 AM
Harsh on the NJAC teams... Rowan tying both Haverford at #12 and Chicago #16 but not top 25?
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 23, 2019, 10:26:42 AM
Let's give this a shot...

MAF Top 25
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. John Carroll
5. Kenyon
6. F&M
7. Loras
8. Hardin Simmons
9. Conn College
10. Hopkins
11. Middlebury
12. Haverford
13. RPI
14. Oneonta
15. Stevens
16. Chicago
17. Ithaca
18. Rochester
19. W&L
20. Hobart
21. PSU Behrend
22. UW-Whitewater
23. Mary Wash
24. Roanoke
25. Western Conn
RV: Eastern Conn, W. NE, Mass Boston, Cortland, Union, Messiah, Gettysburg, Catholic, Stockton, Rowan, Salisbury, Camden, TCNJ, St. Mary's, Ramapo, Centre, CNU, Mount Union, ONU, Capital, Adrian, Kalamazoo, Wheaton, Central, Gustavus Adolphus, Wartburg, Luther, Dubuque, Pudget Sound, Belhaven, Tx Dallas, Southwestern 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 12:56:30 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on September 24, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Yeah, I can't find it, either.  If a mod happens to read this, where did Zinn's column go?

Also, regarding H-S:  Massey has them at #49.

You can still find it by searching "Zinn's Contenders" in the search box. ;)

https://d3soccer.com/columns/men-zinns-contenders/2019-1_Mid-September

That works well when you can remember the full name of the column!  It didn't work so well when I typed in "Zinn," which gave me a lot of links related to Howard Zinn (who didn't have much to say about D3 soccer, AFAIK).
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: Welcome2TheNJAC on September 24, 2019, 11:17:27 AM
Harsh on the NJAC teams... Rowan tying both Haverford at #12 and Chicago #16 but not top 25?

Losing to Staten Island may have something to do with that.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 24, 2019, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 12:56:30 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on September 24, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Yeah, I can't find it, either.  If a mod happens to read this, where did Zinn's column go?

Also, regarding H-S:  Massey has them at #49.

You can still find it by searching "Zinn's Contenders" in the search box. ;)

https://d3soccer.com/columns/men-zinns-contenders/2019-1_Mid-September

That works well when you can remember the full name of the column!  It didn't work so well when I typed in "Zinn," which gave me a lot of links related to Howard Zinn (who didn't have much to say about D3 soccer, AFAIK).

I did the same thing, and that was after I couldn't find him anywhere where columnists and their columns usually are found.  I started wondering about something juicy and conspiratorial, like Shapiro wanted it shut down for whatever reason.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 24, 2019, 01:40:31 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 12:56:30 PM
That works well when you can remember the full name of the column!  It didn't work so well when I typed in "Zinn," which gave me a lot of links related to Howard Zinn (who didn't have much to say about D3 soccer, AFAIK).
Fair enough. At first, I thought that the search function worked well, compared to many websites' Google widgets, which do seemingly nothing as far as helping with internal searches — I get a pile of irrelevant results with them usually; then I realized that I did know the column name and that's probably why I found it easily. That is pretty odd that it's not there, though. I'll drop a line to the relevant overlords (I have no posting superpowers, and I'm fine with that).

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2019, 01:14:54 PM
I did the same thing, and that was after I couldn't find him anywhere where columnists and their columns usually are found.  I started wondering about something juicy and conspiratorial, like Shapiro wanted it shut down for whatever reason.

Not sure how relevant this is but it's what I thought of when I read this and I'm going to leave it here anyway. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on September 24, 2019, 01:58:36 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 24, 2019, 01:14:54 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 12:56:30 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on September 24, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on September 24, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Yeah, I can't find it, either.  If a mod happens to read this, where did Zinn's column go?

Also, regarding H-S:  Massey has them at #49.

You can still find it by searching "Zinn's Contenders" in the search box. ;)

https://d3soccer.com/columns/men-zinns-contenders/2019-1_Mid-September

That works well when you can remember the full name of the column!  It didn't work so well when I typed in "Zinn," which gave me a lot of links related to Howard Zinn (who didn't have much to say about D3 soccer, AFAIK).

I did the same thing, and that was after I couldn't find him anywhere where columnists and their columns usually are found.  I started wondering about something juicy and conspiratorial, like Shapiro wanted it shut down for whatever reason.

Sorry, about that guys!  No conspiracy unless the Managing Editor is hiding something from me!  I will make sure that Zinn's Contenders get's its column homepage/archive published.  If it depends on me it might not happen today--wife's 40th birthday and three kids with soccer practices tonight--but it will be up soon.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: NokeAlum15 on September 25, 2019, 08:42:16 AM
What am I missing in yesterday's USC rankings?  Noke ranked #4 in South Atlantic, which I'm fine with.  But to have Oglethorpe (who Noke beat 2-0 on Sunday) receiving more votes than Roanoke?

Something seems off there.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 25, 2019, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 23, 2019, 04:01:01 PM
[...]
And we now know that Trinity is in the midst of their worst slump since the mid-90's, so some of the shine on that victory is lost.


Possibly worth noting that Trinity(TX) finally made a change in goal prior to last weekend's game against Dallas, a side that defeated them once in both 2018 and 2017, and won 6-0.   Makes a difference when your keeper stops most of his shots, and this was the first clean sheet of the year.  The six goals also were as many as the team had scored combined in the first five games of the season.   

Unfortunately, the schedule for the rest of the regular season consists solely of SCAC opponents, so we won't be able to see if things are really back on track until the playoffs, should Trinity qualify for them. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 25, 2019, 07:43:44 PM
Big win for Calvin over Chicago.  I only saw the last 15 minutes or so and missed what happened for the red card for Calvin.  I will say that I was very surprised to see so much gamesmanship from the Knights.  Fake, dramatic falls to draw fouls and free kicks not deserved.  Chicago had a game tying goal negated by an offsides call.  Very competitive match as these two schools have had some intense matches and took turns knocking each other out of the NCAA tourney.  I don't know why I'm always so surprised about how competitive Calvin can be (some kind of weird double standard?), but they definitely compete like crazy and don't let the complimentary words from Souders fool ya.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: EastCoastSoccer on September 25, 2019, 10:14:52 PM
A tale of two halves. Calvin definitely got the better of the play from the Maroons in the first half, but the Chicago side came back and gave it to them in the second half. Two interesting calls on Calvin's second goal and the Maroons goal that was called back late in the second half. The second Calvin goal looked surely to be offside, but no call. On the goal called back for the Maroons, it looked as if the maroon player just beat the Calvin defender to the ball.

Without a doubt, these two teams will make a deep run in the tournament. Two top five teams for sure with a great rivalry. It will be interesting to see where they end up meeting one another again.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 27, 2019, 08:45:21 PM
Buff St loses in OT - but their tying goal with one second left in regulation is what kids dream about. The link below takes you to their video page - move ahead till 30 seconds left in second half

https://potsdambears.com/sports/2015/9/3/MSOC_0903151230.aspx
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 27, 2019, 08:50:46 PM
A bicycle-kick goal from the edge of the box with one second left? That's pretty cool.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 27, 2019, 11:25:18 PM
1:59 into the video for those looking.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 27, 2019, 11:39:59 PM
With tonight's 4-0 win over Texas Lutheran, Trinity(TX) coach Paul McGinlay reached 500 wins in less time than anyone in NCAA men's soccer history (all divisions), per the school.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: WUPHF on September 28, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 27, 2019, 11:25:18 PM
1:59 into the video for those looking.

Or, the easy way: https://twitter.com/i/status/1177799253403602944
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 28, 2019, 09:15:09 PM
Tufts looks bored to me.  As I've said I like how Bates is trending and the Bobcats have a chance to make some noise in the next couple of seasons.  I would think this is the year they develop some confidence, realize they can compete with the top NESCAC sides, and then begin next year with higher expectations.  I'm sure Tufts will be fine....the Jumbos are waiting for November and Shapiro no doubt will shake things up if he thinks his team needs a bit of a wake-up call.

Big win for Middlebury.  They needed a win like that to believe that they should be considered real contenders. 

Can someone familiar with Mary Washington and Catholic provide some color on those teams?

Piggybacking on posts in the Mid Atlantic and GL threads, JCU ran into the kind of team that I see them having trouble beating in a NCAA sectional.  We all knew Messiah would be good and get better, especially with players returning from injuries, and while I think the Falcons will be contenders I don't see them as overwhelmingly dynamic and dangerous as in past years.  I don't think the gap between Messiah and some of the teams JCU has squeaked by is as big as suggested in the GL thread.  First, who knows what happens if JCU gets to the half 0-0 as they should have done with an error gifting Messiah a goal which gave the Falcons an edge for the rest of the contest.  I have touted JCU and they clearly are top of GL at least for now, but I don't think the GL has any teams that are among the 6-8 squads most likely to reach the Final Four.  But I'm not sure anyone can fairly rate how good teams like Rochester and Kenyon will be or could be based on their second games of the season.  I mean Kenyon had one blowout game versus lightweight NAIA side Ohio Christian and then faced JCU in Don Shula Stadium with a very new and inexperienced team far from having any identity (and the game still could have gone either way with the Lords having the lead twice).  JCU is very good and their run so far has been fantastic and they have a high floor, but I'm not sure how high their ceiling is.  Can JCU make a run to a a Sweet 16 or even an Elite 8?  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't peg them to reach the Final Four presuming they have to get by a team like Messiah, Calvin, Tufts, Amherst, Rowan, Hopkins, Chicago, W&L, etc (teams with explosive offenses).  I haven't watched every JCU game, but they seem very reliant on set pieces to score.  Messiah really limited free kick chances and for the most part kept Turritin out of danger areas.

So Tufts remains a very clear #1.  I suppose Amherst has solidified the #2 position for now.  And after that?  It's got to be Calvin.  I know it's not JCU or Kenyon.  Messiah has top 5 potential but I don't think they are there just yet.  I like Chicago and Rowan (although Rowan let Montclair equalize late).  Hopkins and F&M are chugging along.  And I really like W&L as my sleeper pick (quietly having an outstanding season).
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 30, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2019, 09:15:09 PM
Tufts looks bored to me.  As I've said I like how Bates is trending and the Bobcats have a chance to make some noise in the next couple of seasons.  I would think this is the year they develop some confidence, realize they can compete with the top NESCAC sides, and then begin next year with higher expectations.  I'm sure Tufts will be fine....the Jumbos are waiting for November and Shapiro no doubt will shake things up if he thinks his team needs a bit of a wake-up call.

Big win for Middlebury.  They needed a win like that to believe that they should be considered real contenders. 

Can someone familiar with Mary Washington and Catholic provide some color on those teams?

Piggybacking on posts in the Mid Atlantic and GL threads, JCU ran into the kind of team that I see them having trouble beating in a NCAA sectional.  We all knew Messiah would be good and get better, especially with players returning from injuries, and while I think the Falcons will be contenders I don't see them as overwhelmingly dynamic and dangerous as in past years.  I don't think the gap between Messiah and some of the teams JCU has squeaked by is as big as suggested in the GL thread.  First, who knows what happens if JCU gets to the half 0-0 as they should have done with an error gifting Messiah a goal which gave the Falcons an edge for the rest of the contest.  I have touted JCU and they clearly are top of GL at least for now, but I don't think the GL has any teams that are among the 6-8 squads most likely to reach the Final Four.  But I'm not sure anyone can fairly rate how good teams like Rochester and Kenyon will be or could be based on their second games of the season.  I mean Kenyon had one blowout game versus lightweight NAIA side Ohio Christian and then faced JCU in Don Shula Stadium with a very new and inexperienced team far from having any identity (and the game still could have gone either way with the Lords having the lead twice).  JCU is very good and their run so far has been fantastic and they have a high floor, but I'm not sure how high their ceiling is.  Can JCU make a run to a a Sweet 16 or even an Elite 8?  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't peg them to reach the Final Four presuming they have to get by a team like Messiah, Calvin, Tufts, Amherst, Rowan, Hopkins, Chicago, W&L, etc (teams with explosive offenses).  I haven't watched every JCU game, but they seem very reliant on set pieces to score.  Messiah really limited free kick chances and for the most part kept Turritin out of danger areas.

So Tufts remains a very clear #1.  I suppose Amherst has solidified the #2 position for now.  And after that?  It's got to be Calvin.  I know it's not JCU or Kenyon.  Messiah has top 5 potential but I don't think they are there just yet.  I like Chicago and Rowan (although Rowan let Montclair equalize late).  Hopkins and F&M are chugging along.  And I really like W&L as my sleeper pick (quietly having an outstanding season).

As a W&L alum I agree they are having a good season so far. However, they are still not on that top tier in my opinion. They are a very complete team where everyone is good, but they are missing that transcendent difference maker that is generally a hallmark of the top tier teams. I think they will have a very solid season and depending on match ups could progress a few rounds in the tournament, but I don't expect they can consistently compete yet with the true elites.

This is the same feeling I've had for the last 4, maybe 5, seasons. And it's one I'm not particularly sad about. W&L was always something of a sleeping giant and Coach Singleton has woken them. I would be very upset if he moved on after the progress he has made. But breaking into that final tier, let alone staying there, is extremely difficult. I'm very pleased with them being a top 25 team, and I think they deserve that right now. But top 5 or 8? Eh... it's a stretch.

Still, I expect them to do well in the ODAC season, with hosting both Lynchburg and Roanoke on the horizon.Those teams are no slouches and the ODAC conference season should be interesting this year with 3 very good teams. Unfortunately after those 3, there appears to be almost no middle class to the ODAC...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 30, 2019, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 28, 2019, 09:15:09 PM
Tufts looks bored to me.  As I've said I like how Bates is trending and the Bobcats have a chance to make some noise in the next couple of seasons.  I would think this is the year they develop some confidence, realize they can compete with the top NESCAC sides, and then begin next year with higher expectations.  I'm sure Tufts will be fine....the Jumbos are waiting for November and Shapiro no doubt will shake things up if he thinks his team needs a bit of a wake-up call.

Big win for Middlebury.  They needed a win like that to believe that they should be considered real contenders. 

Can someone familiar with Mary Washington and Catholic provide some color on those teams?

Piggybacking on posts in the Mid Atlantic and GL threads, JCU ran into the kind of team that I see them having trouble beating in a NCAA sectional.  We all knew Messiah would be good and get better, especially with players returning from injuries, and while I think the Falcons will be contenders I don't see them as overwhelmingly dynamic and dangerous as in past years.  I don't think the gap between Messiah and some of the teams JCU has squeaked by is as big as suggested in the GL thread.  First, who knows what happens if JCU gets to the half 0-0 as they should have done with an error gifting Messiah a goal which gave the Falcons an edge for the rest of the contest.  I have touted JCU and they clearly are top of GL at least for now, but I don't think the GL has any teams that are among the 6-8 squads most likely to reach the Final Four.  But I'm not sure anyone can fairly rate how good teams like Rochester and Kenyon will be or could be based on their second games of the season.  I mean Kenyon had one blowout game versus lightweight NAIA side Ohio Christian and then faced JCU in Don Shula Stadium with a very new and inexperienced team far from having any identity (and the game still could have gone either way with the Lords having the lead twice).  JCU is very good and their run so far has been fantastic and they have a high floor, but I'm not sure how high their ceiling is.  Can JCU make a run to a a Sweet 16 or even an Elite 8?  Absolutely.  But I wouldn't peg them to reach the Final Four presuming they have to get by a team like Messiah, Calvin, Tufts, Amherst, Rowan, Hopkins, Chicago, W&L, etc (teams with explosive offenses).  I haven't watched every JCU game, but they seem very reliant on set pieces to score.  Messiah really limited free kick chances and for the most part kept Turritin out of danger areas.

So Tufts remains a very clear #1.  I suppose Amherst has solidified the #2 position for now.  And after that?  It's got to be Calvin.  I know it's not JCU or Kenyon.  Messiah has top 5 potential but I don't think they are there just yet.  I like Chicago and Rowan (although Rowan let Montclair equalize late).  Hopkins and F&M are chugging along.  And I really like W&L as my sleeper pick (quietly having an outstanding season).

Catholic is favored to win the Landmark this year and are off to a nice start in non-conference action. I have seen them play a couple times and they are strong from front to back and seem to have decent depth. I am interested to see how they do against Etown and Drew as those will be the more telling conference games for them. They just beat Scranton on the road the other day to open up conference, whom is a favorite to make the conference playoffs as well, so they seem to be full steam ahead. They are 8-1-1 with nice results against Lycoming, Mary Washington, Dickinson, and Lynchburg. Eastern, Drew, and Etown all left to play.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 30, 2019, 01:16:00 PM
MAF Top 25
1. Tufts
2. Calvin
3. Amherst
4. Kenyon
5. F&M
6. Loras
7. Middlebury
8. Hardin Simmons
9. Hopkins
10. Oneonta St
11. John Carroll
12. RPI
13. Ithaca
14. W&L
15. Hobart
16. PSU Behrend
17. Conn College
18. Rochester
19. Messiah
20. Mary Wash
21. Cortland St
22. UW-Whitewater
23. Roanoke
24. Rowan
25. W. New England
RV: Western Conn, Eastern Conn, St. Joe's (Me), Bowdoin, Mass Boston, MIT, Wesleyan, Buff St, Union, Gettysburg, Catholic, Stevens, Swarthmore, Muhlenberg, Stockton, Salisbury, Camden, TCNJ, Ramapo, Centre, CNU, Mount Union, ONU, Capital, Chicago, North Park, Adrian, Kalamazoo, Wheaton, Central, Simpson, Carleton, Gustavus Adolphus, Luther, Dubuque, Tx Dallas, Southwestern, CMS
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on September 30, 2019, 04:38:41 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 30, 2019, 01:16:00 PM
MAF Top 25
1. Tufts
2. Calvin
3. Amherst
4. Kenyon
5. F&M
6. Loras
7. Middlebury
8. Hardin Simmons
9. Hopkins
10. Oneonta St
11. John Carroll
12. RPI
13. Ithaca
14. W&L
15. Hobart
16. PSU Behrend
17. Conn College
18. Rochester
19. Messiah
20. Mary Wash
21. Cortland St
22. UW-Whitewater
23. Roanoke
24. Rowan
25. W. New England
RV: Western Conn, Eastern Conn, St. Joe's (Me), Bowdoin, Mass Boston, MIT, Wesleyan, Buff St, Union, Gettysburg, Catholic, Stevens, Swarthmore, Muhlenberg, Stockton, Salisbury, Camden, TCNJ, Ramapo, Centre, CNU, Mount Union, ONU, Capital, Chicago, North Park, Adrian, Kalamazoo, Wheaton, Central, Simpson, Carleton, Gustavus Adolphus, Luther, Dubuque, Tx Dallas, Southwestern, CMS

I was wondering what you see in WNEC.  All seven of their wins are against teams that aren't in Massey's top 250.  They have a close loss to Babson and a tie against Brandeis, which might be good results for a team ranked in the 100s but not for a #25.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 01, 2019, 12:51:39 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. Kenyon
5. F&M
6. Oneonta St
7. Hopkins
8. Chicago
9. Messiah
10. John Carroll
-------------------------
11. Hobart
12. Ithaca
13. Loras
14. Rochester
15. W&L
16. Middlebury
17. Cortland St
18. Rowan
19. Conn College
20. Mary Wash
--------------------------
21. Hardin-Simmons
22. PSU Behrend
23. Catholic
24. St. Joe's (Me)
T25. RPI/Roanoke/Eastern Conn

NE: 6 teams
East 6 teams
MA: 4 teams
SA: 4 teams
GL: 3 teams
Cent: 2 teams
North: 1 team
West: 1 team
27 total with 3 coming in at T25

I view it in 3 tiers. The first tier are the title contenders, the second tier the competitors, and the third tier is everchanging and can make a run at it but unlikely.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: discnerd on October 01, 2019, 02:20:38 PM
Discnerd's Top 25 (https://discnerd.wordpress.com/2019/09/30/d3-soccer-for-september-30-2019/)


RankingTeamRatingConference
1Mary Washington7.464111CAC
2Amherst7.172172NESCAC
3Tufts6.804878NESCAC
4Washington and Lee6.46249ODAC
5Johns Hopkins6.303254CC
6Roanoke6.280562ODAC
7Covenant5.790168USAC
8Calvin4.774913MIAA
9Christopher Newport4.746544CAC
10Hardin-Simmons4.704277ASC
11Catholic4.607719LAND
12Loras4.53231ARC
13Connecticut College4.529007NESCAC
14Eastern Connecticut4.34873LEC
15Gustavus Adolphus4.082904MIAC
16Middlebury4.080217NESCAC
17Gettysburg4.028624CC
18Franklin and Marshall4.027184CC
19Messiah3.986144MACC
20Oglethorpe3.818965SAA
21Oneonta State3.630584SUNYAC
22Rutgers-Camden3.443313NJAC
23Hobart3.373135LL
24Ithaca3.359468LL
25RPI3.355243LL

Rating is found by having a large number of voters voting for their first place team.  Have each voter look at the outcome of a randomly chosen game their team has played.  They switch to the other team with a probability related to the margin of victory of the game.  Do that several thousand times for all voters and the distribution of voters settles to a steady state.  Rating is normalized so that each team starts with one voter.


Full rankings are linked to from the post that is linked in the title.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on October 05, 2019, 10:23:22 PM
Looks like Christopher Newport is officially back.  Big 2-0 win over #11 UMW to push them to 6-1-3 on the year - which really should be 7-0-2 if not for some horrible officiating in Texas.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 05, 2019, 10:40:00 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 01, 2019, 12:51:39 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. Kenyon
5. F&M
6. Oneonta St
7. Hopkins
8. Chicago
9. Messiah
10. John Carroll
-------------------------
11. Hobart
12. Ithaca
13. Loras
14. Rochester
15. W&L
16. Middlebury
17. Cortland St
18. Rowan
19. Conn College
20. Mary Wash
--------------------------
21. Hardin-Simmons
22. PSU Behrend
23. Catholic
24. St. Joe's (Me)
T25. RPI/Roanoke/Eastern Conn

NE: 6 teams
East 6 teams
MA: 4 teams
SA: 4 teams
GL: 3 teams
Cent: 2 teams
North: 1 team
West: 1 team
27 total with 3 coming in at T25

I view it in 3 tiers. The first tier are the title contenders, the second tier the competitors, and the third tier is everchanging and can make a run at it but unlikely.


Based on the results since 2004 you are a pretty safe bet if you include Messiah and top of NESCAC in the top tier. Only in 2011 did a team outside that group win the national championship. Calvin and Chicago have  been knocking on the door so maybe this is their year.  But I wouldn't be surprised if recent history repeats itself. Should be an  entertaining tournament.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 07, 2019, 09:52:39 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 01, 2019, 12:51:39 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. Kenyon
5. F&M
6. Oneonta St
7. Hopkins
8. Chicago
9. Messiah
10. John Carroll
-------------------------
11. Hobart
12. Ithaca
13. Loras
14. Rochester
15. W&L
16. Middlebury
17. Cortland St
18. Rowan
19. Conn College
20. Mary Wash
--------------------------
21. Hardin-Simmons
22. PSU Behrend
23. Catholic
24. St. Joe's (Me)
T25. RPI/Roanoke/Eastern Conn

NE: 6 teams
East 6 teams
MA: 4 teams
SA: 4 teams
GL: 3 teams
Cent: 2 teams
North: 1 team
West: 1 team
27 total with 3 coming in at T25

I view it in 3 tiers. The first tier are the title contenders, the second tier the competitors, and the third tier is everchanging and can make a run at it but unlikely.

Shooter's Power Rankings 10/7
1. Tufts
2. Amherst
3. Calvin
4. Kenyon
5. F&M
6. Oneonta St
7. Hopkins
8. Chicago
9. Messiah
10. Ithaca
-------------------------
11. RPI
12. W&L
13. John Carroll
14. PSU Behrend
15. Roanoke
16. Middlebury
17. Rochester
18. Catholic
19. Conn College
20. Loras
--------------------------
21. Hardin-Simmons
22. Hobart
23. Cortland
24. St. Joe's (Me)
T25. Rowan/Mary Wash

NE: 5 teams
East 6 teams
MA: 4 teams
SA: 4 teams
GL: 3 teams
Cent: 2 teams
North: 1 team
West: 1 team
26 total with 2 coming in at T25

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: discnerd on October 07, 2019, 11:25:01 AM
Discnerd's top 25 (No blog post yet)


RankingTeamRatingConference
1Amherst8.36372NESCAC
2Johns Hopkins6.43538CC
3Tufts5.77251NESCAC
4Mary Washington5.70079CAC
5Calvin5.56714MIAA
6Christopher Newport5.54331CAC
7Washington and Lee5.41844ODAC
8Covenant5.21568USAC
9Roanoke5.19344ODAC
10Franklin and Marshall4.37823CC
11Connecticut College4.26196NESCAC
12Middlebury4.2084NESCAC
13Oneonta State3.98324SUNYAC
14Catholic3.88338LAND
15Gettysburg3.87416CC
16Chicago3.67177UAA
17Ithaca3.64101LL
18Hardin-Simmons3.58038ASC
19Rowan3.53541NJAC
20Oglethorpe3.5039SAA
21Bates3.46997NESCAC
22RPI3.46353LL
23Claremont-Mudd-Scripps3.31492SCIAC
24Messiah3.30124MACC
25Ohio Wesleyan3.18641NCAC
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 09, 2019, 01:14:38 PM
Upset special for tonight....Keene State travels to Troy,NY and gives RPI its 2nd loss of the season...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 09, 2019, 01:17:51 PM
Upset Special in games I have absolutely no insight on.........St.Mary's(MD) will travel to Christopher Newport and defeat the Captains for the first time in over a decade...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 10, 2019, 09:02:47 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2019, 01:14:38 PM
Upset special for tonight....Keene State travels to Troy,NY and gives RPI its 2nd loss of the season...

RPI was up 3-0 in the first 25min. Think this game and the CNU game both ended 3-1. RPI seems to be the real deal this season.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 10, 2019, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 10, 2019, 09:02:47 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2019, 01:14:38 PM
Upset special for tonight....Keene State travels to Troy,NY and gives RPI its 2nd loss of the season...

RPI was up 3-0 in the first 25min. Think this game and the CNU game both ended 3-1. RPI seems to be the real deal this season.


LOL....RPI is def for real I just thought the opposite would happen but Keene St laid an egg....12th minute PK prob did not help

St.Mary's had CNU 1-1 into the 66th minute and then collapsed...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 11, 2019, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 10, 2019, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 10, 2019, 09:02:47 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2019, 01:14:38 PM
Upset special for tonight....Keene State travels to Troy,NY and gives RPI its 2nd loss of the season...

RPI was up 3-0 in the first 25min. Think this game and the CNU game both ended 3-1. RPI seems to be the real deal this season.


LOL....RPI is def for real I just thought the opposite would happen but Keene St laid an egg....12th minute PK prob did not help

St.Mary's had CNU 1-1 into the 66th minute and then collapsed...

It was worth a shot!  :D
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 12, 2019, 09:39:00 AM
Cortland St has looked to have hit a bit of a wall going in to today's match v Oneonta. They are sitting at  6-3-2 (2-1-1) 4th Place in SUNYAC with no Home games remaining. They play Oneonta today and then travel up to a recently improved Plattsburgh side who just swiped 6pts on the road last weekend in league play at Geneseo  and at Brockport giving up only 1 Goal all weekend.  Cortland has some decent Wins on their resume but right now they need to find results in their own league or are in real danger of missing the VERY important SUNYAC Top 2 seeds which get a free pass into Conference Semi's.

Oneonta has Won 6 straight and besides a hiccup at RPI they would be clean. Not as impressed with Oneonta's schedule as Byrne looks to have added an xtra cupcake or 3.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: discnerd on October 14, 2019, 01:16:22 PM
Discnerd's top 25 (https://discnerd.wordpress.com/2019/10/14/d3-soccer-rankings-for-october-14/)


RankRank.diffTeamConferenceRatingRating.diff
10AmherstNESCAC7.4310.184
20CalvinMIAA5.826-1.143
31Christopher NewportCAC5.752-0.958
4-1Johns HopkinsCC5.614-1.241
50Washington and LeeODAC5.324-1.163
61RoanokeODAC5.2850.267
7-1Mary WashingtonCAC5.076-0.614
80Franklin and MarshallCC4.8780.385
90Connecticut CollegeNESCAC4.6510.216
1018Oneonta StateSUNYAC4.4661.246
116OglethorpeSAA4.1630.302
12-1ChicagoUAA3.95-0.232
131CovenantUSAC3.9-0.206
141MessiahMACC3.874-0.101
158TuftsNESCAC3.7680.2
16-3CatholicLAND3.633-0.49
171RowanNJAC3.531-0.294
18-6GettysburgCC3.496-0.66
1921Buffalo StateSUNYAC3.430.81
201Claremont-Mudd-ScrippsSCIAC3.395-0.28
21-11MiddleburyNESCAC3.39-0.866
228RPILL3.3540.229
23-3Gustavus AdolphusMIAC3.24-0.56
24-8IthacaLL3.229-0.732
252CentreSAA3.142-0.271
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: YoungBuck on October 16, 2019, 06:40:30 PM
(Maybe Meaningful) Stat of the Day:

Of the top 16 teams on Massey Ratings, only #12 Tufts and #16 RPI have a multiple goal loss to a team outside of the top 11.  Here is the full list of multiple goal defeats from the top 16:

#16 RPI - #45 Dickinson (0-3)
#14 Oglethorpe - #7 Roanoke (0-2)
#12 Tufts - #51 Babson (0-2)
#9 Mary Wash - #11 Christopher Newport (0-2)
#2 W&L - #6 Hopkins (2-5)

In D3 soccer, where a good team can fall victim to an unlucky 1 goal defeat for any of a number of reasons (amateur referees, grass fields, wind, exam season, bus seats, traffic), multiple goal victories/defeats can give more value to a win/loss.  This should bode well for a competitive second and third weekend of the NCAA Tournament, as well as indicating strong potential for more movement at the top before the month is over.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 17, 2019, 09:04:40 AM
Quote from: YoungBuck on October 16, 2019, 06:40:30 PM
(Maybe Meaningful) Stat of the Day:

Of the top 16 teams on Massey Ratings, only #12 Tufts and #16 RPI have a multiple goal loss to a team outside of the top 11.  Here is the full list of multiple goal defeats from the top 16:

#16 RPI - #45 Dickinson (0-3)
#14 Oglethorpe - #7 Roanoke (0-2)
#12 Tufts - #51 Babson (0-2)
#9 Mary Wash - #11 Christopher Newport (0-2)
#2 W&L - #6 Hopkins (2-5)

In D3 soccer, where a good team can fall victim to an unlucky 1 goal defeat for any of a number of reasons (amateur referees, grass fields, wind, exam season, bus seats, traffic), multiple goal victories/defeats can give more value to a win/loss.  This should bode well for a competitive second and third weekend of the NCAA Tournament, as well as indicating strong potential for more movement at the top before the month is over.

What's going on with Tufts lately?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on October 21, 2019, 12:44:27 PM
When are the first NCAA Regional Rankings set to be released?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on October 21, 2019, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on October 21, 2019, 12:44:27 PM
When are the first NCAA Regional Rankings set to be released?

Pretty sure it's this Wednesday.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: discnerd on October 22, 2019, 09:53:09 PM
discnerd's top 25


RankRank.diffTeamConferenceRatingRating.diff
10AmherstNESCAC6.745-0.686
21Christopher NewportCAC6.0480.296
31Johns HopkinsCC5.9510.337
4-2CalvinMIAA5.697-0.13
52Mary WashingtonCAC5.6180.542
6-1Washington and LeeODAC5.208-0.115
71Franklin and MarshallCC4.539-0.338
87TuftsNESCAC4.2360.469
91Oneonta StateSUNYAC4.105-0.361
104MessiahMACC4.0510.177
110OglethorpeSAA3.965-0.197
121CovenantUSAC3.887-0.013
135GettysburgCC3.8230.327
148RPILL3.7830.429
15-3ChicagoUAA3.724-0.226
16-10RoanokeODAC3.702-1.584
17-8Connecticut CollegeNESCAC3.278-1.373
181Buffalo StateSUNYAC3.253-0.176
196CentreSAA3.1740.032
20-4CatholicLAND3.172-0.46
215Ohio WesleyanNCAC3.1630.073
2212Montclair StateNJAC3.1350.325
236HaverfordCC3.1240.16
240IthacaLL3.111-0.118
25-4MiddleburyNESCAC3.069-0.321
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 23, 2019, 04:17:52 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Amherst
11-0-2
0.614
--
11-0-2
--
2.
Tufts
9-2-2
0.605
--
9-2-2
--
3.
Middlebury
7-1-5
0.602
--
7-1-5
--
4.
Connecticut College
7-3-2
0.616
--
7-3-2
--
5.
Brandeis
8-3-4
0.601
--
8-3-4
--
6.
WPI
8-2-4
0.576
--
8-2-4
--
7.
Babson
9-4-2
0.553
--
9-4-2
--
8.
Keene State
10-5-0
0.572
--
10-5-0
--
9.
Williams
5-3-4
0.585
--
5-3-4
--
10.
Bates
8-4-1
0.556
--
8-4-1
--
11.
Hamilton
6-5-2
0.639
--
6-5-2
--
12.
MIT
7-2-5
0.542
--
7-2-5
--

EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
RPI
13-1-1
0.559
--
13-1-1
--
2.
Oneonta State
13-2-0
0.577
--
13-2-0
--
3.
Ithaca
11-2-2
0.560
--
11-2-2
--
4.
Hobart
10-4-1
0.591
--
10-4-1
--
5.
Skidmore
6-4-4
0.576
--
6-4-4
--
6.
Plattsburgh State
8-6-0
0.573
--
8-6-0
--
7.
Cortland State
7-5-2
0.579
--
7-5-2
--
8.
Vassar
7-5-1
0.575
--
7-6-1
--

MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Johns Hopkins
10-2-1
0.658
--
10-2-1
--
2.
Franklin and Marshall
12-2-0
0.612
--
12-2-0
--
3.
Messiah
11-2-2
0.598
--
11-2-2
--
4.
Swarthmore
9-2-3
0.600
--
9-2-3
--
5.
Haverford
7-3-3
0.629
--
7-3-3
--
6.
Gettysburg
8-4-1
0.633
--
8-4-1
--
7.
Elizabethtown
9-4-1
0.561
--
9-4-1
--
8.
Muhlenberg
8-4-2
0.567
--
8-4-2
--
9.
Catholic
13-2-1
0.521
--
13-2-1
--
10.
Lycoming
8-6-0
0.620
--
8-6-0
--

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Christopher Newport
9-2-3
0.636
--
9-2-3
--
2.
Mary Washington
10-3-2
0.637
--
10-3-2
--
3.
Washington and Lee
10-2-2
0.603
--
10-2-2
--
4.
Roanoke
11-1-2
0.550
--
12-1-2
--
5.
Oglethorpe
11-3-0
0.558
--
11-3-0
--
6.
Centre
12-3-1
0.572
--
12-3-1
--
7.
Rowan
8-3-3
0.605
--
8-3-3
--
8.
TCNJ
10-2-3
0.568
--
10-2-3
--
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 23, 2019, 04:18:51 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
John Carroll
11-2-2
0.622
--
11-2-2
--
2.
Kenyon
9-1-2
0.594
--
11-1-2
--
3.
Ohio Wesleyan
9-3-3
0.617
--
9-3-3
--
4.
Ohio Northern
10-4-1
0.613
--
11-4-1
--
5.
Mount Union
8-2-3
0.574
--
8-2-3
--
6.
Otterbein
9-5-0
0.565
--
9-5-0
--
7.
Hanover
6-4-1
0.562
--
7-5-1
--
8.
Capital
6-4-3
0.556
--
6-4-3
--

CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Calvin
14-1-0
0.597
--
15-1-0
--
2.
Chicago
8-1-4
0.666
--
8-1-4
--
3.
North Park
10-4-0
0.601
--
10-4-0
--
4.
Kalamazoo
7-2-2
0.586
--
8-2-2
--
5.
Wheaton (Ill.)
9-4-2
0.596
--
9-4-2
--
6.
Hope
10-5-0
0.587
--
10-5-0
--
7.
North Central (Ill.)
9-4-1
0.576
--
9-4-1
--

NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Luther
10-3-1
0.613
--
11-3-1
--
2.
Central
11-2-2
0.577
--
11-2-2
--
3.
Loras
12-4-1
0.585
--
12-4-1
--
4.
St. Thomas
9-3-3
0.592
--
9-3-3
--
5.
Gustavus Adolphus
12-3-0
0.546
--
12-3-0
--
6.
St. Norbert
11-4-2
0.567
--
11-4-2
--
7.
Knox
11-3-2
0.540
--
11-3-2
--

WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 23, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Trinity (Texas)
8-2-2
0.618
--
8-3-2
--
2.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
10-3-1
0.561
--
10-3-1
--
3.
Colorado College
7-5-0
0.586
--
10-5-0
--
4.
Whitman
8-4-0
0.529
--
10-5-0
--
5.
UC Santa Cruz
3-2-2
0.566
--
6-6-2
--
6.
Hardin-Simmons
11-2-0
0.485
--
13-2-0
--
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on October 23, 2019, 10:50:26 PM
Loras goes down 4-0 to Dubuque in the first 25 minutes and comes back to win 5-4 in OT.  That was one epic crosstown rivalry game that will be talked about for a while.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 23, 2019, 11:35:45 PM
Chicago kissed its sister for the fifth time this season, as the Maroons drew 1-1 with Carthage down on the South Side.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: YoungBuck on October 24, 2019, 02:52:56 PM
Meaningless Stat of the Day:

The Centennial Conference is currently having a season for the ages.  As of 10/24, 7 teams are ranked inside the top 50 on Massey:

#3 Hopkins, #4 F&M, #21 Gettysburg, #22 Swarthmore, #29 Haverford, #41 Muhlenberg, #45 Dickinson.

Since 2010, only 6 times has a conference finished the season with 7 or more teams inside the Massey top 50.  Of those 6 conferences, 3 produced the national champion, and 5 produced a final 4 participant:

NESCAC 2018 - 8 (Tufts - Champion)
UAA 2018 - 7 (Chicago - Final 4)
NESCAC 2016 - 8 (Tufts - Champion)
NESCAC 2015 - 7 (Amherst - Champion)
NESCAC 2013 - 7 (Williams - Final 4)
NESCAC 2011 - 7 (Amherst - Sweet 16)

NESCAC currently has 5 teams inside the top 50, with 3 (#52 Bates, #54 Bowdoin, #55 Hamilton) just outside.  Can the Centennial leverage its depth at the top this year into its first ever national championship?  Or will it be business as usual for the NESCAC?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on October 24, 2019, 03:50:22 PM
You need to re-brand, YoungBuck. These are pretty consistently not "meaningless."
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 24, 2019, 07:42:50 PM
Quote from: YoungBuck on October 24, 2019, 02:52:56 PM
Meaningless Stat of the Day:

The Centennial Conference is currently having a season for the ages.  As of 10/24, 7 teams are ranked inside the top 50 on Massey:

#3 Hopkins, #4 F&M, #21 Gettysburg, #22 Swarthmore, #29 Haverford, #41 Muhlenberg, #45 Dickinson.

Since 2010, only 6 times has a conference finished the season with 7 or more teams inside the Massey top 50.  Of those 6 conferences, 3 produced the national champion, and 5 produced a final 4 participant:

NESCAC 2018 - 8 (Tufts - Champion)
UAA 2018 - 7 (Chicago - Final 4)
NESCAC 2016 - 8 (Tufts - Champion)
NESCAC 2015 - 7 (Amherst - Champion)
NESCAC 2013 - 7 (Williams - Final 4)
NESCAC 2011 - 7 (Amherst - Sweet 16)

NESCAC currently has 5 teams inside the top 50, with 3 (#52 Bates, #54 Bowdoin, #55 Hamilton) just outside.  Can the Centennial leverage its depth at the top this year into its first ever national championship?  Or will it be business as usual for the NESCAC?

I'd note that the UAA accomplished that feat with just eight members, compared to 10 for the Centennial and 11 for the NESCAC.

But you're right.  The Centennial has broken the UAA-NESCAC hegemony, as they're quite clearly better this year than the UAA (which could actually be a one-bid league this year if Brandeis stumbles down the stretch and none of the other teams goes on a hot streak), and Massey currently rates them just a smidge ahead of the NESCAC.

Also, nice handle.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 25, 2019, 10:43:55 AM
MAF Top 25
1. Amherst
2. Calvin
3. Tufts
4. Kenyon
5. JHU
6. RPI
7. Messiah
8. Oneonta St
9. F&M
10. John Carroll
11. Chicago
12. W&L
13. Ithaca
14. Middlebury
15. Hobart
16. Trinity (Tx)
17. Conn College
18. Roanoke
19. Ohio Wesleyan
20. CNU
21. Luther
22. Central
23. Mary Wash
24. Loras
25. PSU Behrend
RV: Babson, Brandeis, St. Joe's (Me), Swarthmore, Gettysburg, Catholic, Ogelthorpe, Centre, ONU, Mount Union, North Park, Kalamazoo, St. Thomas, Gustavus Adolphus, CMS, Hardin-Simmons
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: YoungBuck on October 25, 2019, 12:11:22 PM
Re: Zinn's Contenders - Late October

Thanks for the column Mr. Zinner, I love the format, and as usual it was very well written.  Hard to argue with your rankings, given the difficulty of staying on top of 20-25 relevant teams across the country, and the unpredictable nature of D3 soccer in general, so a job well done on putting together a very respectable list. 

As I've written before on this thread (in a MSOTD), I think that while good teams might suffer 1-goal defeats throughout the year, a multiple goal defeats (especially by 3+) can paint a picture of a team being obviously outmatched in a game and not belonging among the top tier.  That 3-0 loss to an 8-6 Dickinson team makes me questions RPI's invitation to the top 10.  That being said, I don't really love the resume's of any of the other teams 11-20, so again, job well done to you. 

I don't know if PSU-Behrend belongs on this list, especially at #15 above the likes of CNU and Mary Washington.  Hard to argue with 15-1, but they've hardly beaten any giant killers this year.  Massey has them at #82, just ahead of #83 Wesleyan, whose current residence in the NESCAC basement should give an indication of Behrend's true level.  Yes, they made the sweet 16 last year (where they were given the smack down by Calvin), but they were definitely outplayed by JCU in the second round and probably should have been knocked out there.  Given their location between the Great Lakes and Mid-Atlantic teams, the likes of Messiah, F&M, Hopkins, Kenyon, and JCU will be surely hoping they keep winning and get placed in their pod for a potentially easier second round matchup.

All that aside, thanks again for the column, and I'll be looking forward to your rankings heading into the tournament.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2019, 01:05:22 PM
I was going to start a new thread titled Zinn's Contenders Comments Corner, but then I saw YoungBuck's post above and will just post here.

A little minor nit-picking since I know many of us try to write with a little flair so some occasional hyperbole for effect is to be expected...

Calvin has "haters"?  That's news to me.  I would like to see some different teams reach the Final Four, but it's hard to have a problem with Calvin and one can even feel a trace of empathy given that the Knights have been on the front stoop of the ultimate prize several times.

"If adversity makes you stronger, then a lot of adversity makes you superman??"  If Tufts has experienced a lot of adversity, then count me in.  That's the kind of adversity I want. 

After the first handful of picks I think it's hard to pick the next group of contenders.  Zinn may recall that in his maiden offering he tapped OWU as his surprise standout team.  OWU's recent play matches that sentiment, and IMO the Battling Bishops deserve to at least be in that second group.  I also think Oneonta, W&L, CNU, Mary Washington and maybe Roanoke are being underrated.  Of course one of the challenges with these kinds of analyses and prognostications is that it is almost impossible for any one person to have a good handle on all of the better teams from each region.  And of course, for the most part, when posters say "People say..." or "Many thought back in September..." or whatever, they are using something another poster wrote about their own team(s) or an opponent of their own team(s).  The body of knowledge and impressions to draw from are very interdependent between all of us.  In other words, the forum in many instances serves as the research base for responses, commentary, columns, etc.  I enjoy this aspect of the site and the contributors, so no criticism about that intended.

At any rate, even if my team isn't involved, I would prefer to see some fresh blood at the Final Four....like F&M, Hopkins, W&L, CNU or a real wild card like Mary Washington (who I still think no one has told much about). 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2019, 01:05:22 PMCalvin has "haters"?  That's news to me.

You've never met anybody affiliated with Hope, then.

I have encountered plenty of Hope fans who will root against or disparage Calvin even when it's to the detriment of the MIAA, and thus indirectly to Hope itself. And it holds true in reverse, too, among Calvin fans.

Don't get me wrong -- Hope and Calvin fans respect each other's schools and each other's teams, and they will even admit that the close affinity of the two schools and the myriad crossovers that they have in terms of families and friends make them very much sister schools. But on both sides They. Do. Not. Like. The. Rival. School. At. All.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2019, 03:32:06 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2019, 01:05:22 PMCalvin has "haters"?  That's news to me.

You've never met anybody affiliated with Hope, then.

I have encountered plenty of Hope fans who will root against or disparage Calvin even when it's to the detriment of the MIAA, and thus indirectly to Hope itself. And it holds true in reverse, too, among Calvin fans.

Don't get me wrong -- Hope and Calvin fans respect each other's schools and each other's teams, and they will even admit that the close affinity of the two schools and the myriad crossovers that they have in terms of families and friends make them very much sister schools. But on both sides They. Do. Not. Like. The. Rival. School. At. All.

Fair enough, but in the context of the article I don't think Mr. Zinner was referring to Hope (or any other school rivals) but rather the "media" here on this site.  I for one expected Calvin to drop a notch and I was wrong, but it wasn't about hating.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2019, 04:09:00 PM
Do we know that the posters here are his only fan-based observers, though?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2019, 04:52:02 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2019, 04:09:00 PM
Do we know that the posters here are his only fan-based observers, though?

I'm guessing his reference to Calvin haters was a play on comments about Calvin from posters (like myself) earlier in the season.  I don't presume that's his only source, but certainly I think that's more likely for schools he knows less about.  Although he has played against Calvin, I doubt he has sources from Hope outside this site (and I can't recall any recent Hope posters other than Messiah Nation which tends to embrace schools with either a Christian mission and/or are part of the Messiah coaching tree).  He obviously can speak for himself, but I think he's more likely to have personal, anecdotal and/or additional sources in terms of New England/NESCAC with perhaps some familiarity with Jersey, UAA schools and maybe OWU/Kenyon.  To the extent that any of us rely heavily on the site we have a fairly skewed group here (which is a great group but also very limited....The NESCAC crowd, some Messiah and general Mid-Atlantic fans, a couple of Chicago posters, our Brandeis correspondent, the W&L guy, yourself, a Kenyon guy, one or two OWUers, a Denison fan, the Ohio region savant otherwise wise known as Domino1195, and a few NJAC observers, with a shout out occasionally for Trinity (TX) and Loras). 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2019, 05:13:16 PM
Speaking of Carthage being hard to figure (with wins over top teams and head-scratching losses) check out Brockport St that early on beat Clarkson 5-1 when Clarkson was on a roll and Oneonta within the past week, but just lost to Houghton and sits at 8-7-2 with some other surprising defeats.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 09:29:39 AM
Any school that has 2 buildings with the Devos name on them probably has some haters...As far as the futbol yea I think most fans on here feel for Calvin like the football fans in the 90's did for the Bills. 70% felt bad for them and 30% could care less. Personally,  I go back and forth on Calvin each year not sure how to feel about it.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 10:30:11 AM
How about Oneonta St blasting Potsdam off the field yesterday 9-1(6-1) at the Half. Sets up today's important match between the leagues 2 best playing teams at the moment as Plattsburgh visits today. OH and btw its winner take all as the winner will get the SUNYAC Regular Season crown, rights to host the league Championship and IMO a POOL C.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 26, 2019, 10:30:43 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 09:29:39 AM
Any school that has 2 buildings with the Devos name on them probably has some haters...

BTW, that's not a factor in the Calvin/Hope archrivalry, as the DeVos family has given very generously to both schools. Hope's state-of-the-art 3,400-seat basketball/volleyball arena, which opened 14 years ago, is called DeVos Fieldhouse.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 10:36:51 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 26, 2019, 10:30:43 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 09:29:39 AM
Any school that has 2 buildings with the Devos name on them probably has some haters...

BTW, that's not a factor in the Calvin/Hope archrivalry, as the DeVos family has given very generously to both schools. Hope's state-of-the-art 3,400-seat basketball/volleyball arena, which opened 14 years ago, is called DeVos Fieldhouse.


Totally get it...I should mention in fairness that Calvin has a reputation of being very inclusive and diverse within the Christian academic community but yea the DeVos line was more a jab....moving on
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 11:37:49 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 26, 2019, 10:30:11 AM
How about Oneonta St blasting Potsdam off the field yesterday 9-1(6-1) at the Half. Sets up today's important match between the leagues 2 best playing teams at the moment as Plattsburgh visits today. OH and btw its winner take all as the winner will get the SUNYAC Regular Season crown, rights to host the league Championship and IMO a POOL C.

Scratch that just saw Plattsburgh is 8-6-0 so they most likely will need to win their tournament as well. I will say Plattsburgh are 7-0-0 in their last 7 games with 6 straight shutouts...
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: D3Grad on October 26, 2019, 02:07:36 PM
I will say St. Thomas has shown significant improvement since the worrisome 1-3-3 start to the season.  Since then they have rattled of 9 straight wins.  The team has dramatically improved their offensive presence.  There have been numerous player, position, and formation changes that may contribute to the success.  They are hitting their stride at the right time going into conference playoffs and hopefully NCAA tournament.  I wonder if the MIAC gets 2 teams into the postseason with the success of the ARC conference in the region.  I hypothesize St. Thomas might get a bid if they lose conference final to Gustavus due to recent success and SOS.  If the reverse happens and St. Thomas beats Gustavus in the conference final does Gustavus get a bid?  The low SOS leads me to say no but not sure.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: stlawus on October 26, 2019, 10:51:41 PM
Oneonta going all in on this season as Hernandez is a senior.   There is no such thing as a window closing for Oneonta but if there's ever been a prime opportunity for them get a natty it's this year.   Hernandez is unstoppable right now and they need to cash in on his wondrous senior campaign.   
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: discnerd on October 29, 2019, 01:56:11 PM
Discnerd's Top 25 (https://discnerd.wordpress.com/2019/10/29/d3-soccer-rankings-for-october-28/)


RankRank.diffTeamConferenceRatingRating.diff
11Christopher NewportCAC6.4970.449
2-1AmherstNESCAC6.321-0.424
31CalvinMIAA5.760.063
4-1Johns HopkinsCC5.625-0.327
54Oneonta StateSUNYAC4.7610.656
61Franklin and MarshallCC4.7450.206
71TuftsNESCAC4.3350.098
82MessiahMACC4.0680.017
98Connecticut CollegeNESCAC4.030.753
101OglethorpeSAA4.0180.053
11-6Mary WashingtonCAC3.672-1.947
121GettysburgCC3.641-0.182
131RPILL3.63-0.153
146CatholicLAND3.6090.436
15-3CovenantUSAC3.509-0.378
160RoanokeODAC3.393-0.308
1717Eastern ConnecticutLEC3.3920.573
18-3ChicagoUAA3.367-0.357
193Montclair StateNJAC3.3470.212
206HobartLL3.250.251
2125St. Mary's (Md.)CAC3.1140.618
2211SwarthmoreCC3.0880.249
23-2Ohio WesleyanNCAC3.07-0.093
24-6Buffalo StateSUNYAC3.018-0.235
25-19Washington and LeeODAC2.99-2.218
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: YoungBuck on October 29, 2019, 03:39:05 PM
Stat of the Day:

Of the top 10 teams in this weeks USSC Poll, only Amherst has less than 5 players with multiple goals.  While NESCAC fans may cite good competition and strong opposition defense, Hopkins, F&M, Tufts, Chicago, and John Carroll all have scored fewer total goals than Amherst, but have achieved a greater offensive balance:

1. Amherst (36 goals scored - 4 players with multiple goals)
2. Calvin (62 - 12)
3. Hopkins (28 - 9)
4. F&M (30 - 6)
5. Tufts (32 - 10)
6. Chicago (24 - 7)
7. John Carroll (34 - 9)
8. RPI (37 - 7)
9. Luther (47 - 8)
10. Oneonta (49 - 8)

Amherst's Giammattei (17 goals - 47% of team's goals), RPI's Gaudiano (15 goals - 41%), and Oneonta's Hernandez (20 goals - 41%) have all accounted for more than 40% of their team's production this year.  Meanwhile, no one on Hopkins, Tufts, or Chicago has hit the 5 goal mark.  F&M and JCU have 2 or 3 main goal scoring threats, but have also found good production throughout their rosters this year.  Calvin and Luther seem to have found an elusive combination of offensive potency and balance, albeit against relatively weak schedules.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 29, 2019, 09:49:21 PM
Calvin's schedule isn't weak. The Knights have played five matches thus far against NCAA-regionally-ranked opponents: Ohio Wesleyan, Ohio Northern, Chicago, Hope, and Kalamazoo. It's not Murderer's Row or anything, but it's good enough for an SOS that's just a shade under .600. Heaven knows that the abandonment of the double round-robin starting two years ago was the best decision that the people who run the MIAA could've ever made, and Ryan Souders seems to be making the most of that decision. Massey ranks Calvin's SOS 48th in the nation, which is better than RPI's or SUNY Oneonta's.

Luther had the 13th highest SOS of the 66 teams ranked in this past week's NCAA regional rankings, and three of Luther's opponents (St. Thomas, Central, and Loras) are RR. But the Norse have an SOS that's only ranked 100th by Massey, which may not be weak in the strict sense of the word -- after all, it's in the top quarter percentile in a division that has 419 teams -- but it's not at all impressive by national standards. The one thing that I'll say for Luther's schedule is that the Norse have hardly played any losing teams this season; only four of their 16 opponents to date (Johnson & Wales CO, St. Scholastica, Coe, and Nebraska Wesleyan) are under .500 at the moment.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: YoungBuck on October 30, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 29, 2019, 09:49:21 PM
Calvin's schedule isn't weak. The Knights have played five matches thus far against NCAA-regionally-ranked opponents: Ohio Wesleyan, Ohio Northern, Chicago, Hope, and Kalamazoo. It's not Murderer's Row or anything, but it's good enough for an SOS that's just a shade under .600. Heaven knows that the abandonment of the double round-robin starting two years ago was the best decision that the people who run the MIAA could've ever made, and Ryan Souders seems to be making the most of that decision. Massey ranks Calvin's SOS 48th in the nation, which is better than RPI's or SUNY Oneonta's.

Luther had the 13th highest SOS of the 66 teams ranked in this past week's NCAA regional rankings, and three of Luther's opponents (St. Thomas, Central, and Loras) are RR. But the Norse have an SOS that's only ranked 100th by Massey, which may not be weak in the strict sense of the word -- after all, it's in the top quarter percentile in a division that has 419 teams -- but it's not at all impressive by national standards. The one thing that I'll say for Luther's schedule is that the Norse have hardly played any losing teams this season; only four of their 16 opponents to date (Johnson & Wales CO, St. Scholastica, Coe, and Nebraska Wesleyan) are under .500 at the moment.

While you're right about the overall SoS numbers of Calvin and Luther, just looking at SoS misses the spirit of the post.  Calvin's 62 goal number, while impressive, looks a bit more pedestrian when you take away the 16 combined goals they scored against Massey #303 Olivet and #238 Greenville.  Same for Luther's 47 goals if you take away the 12 goals against #382 Buena Vista and #230 NE Wesleyan.  While they both added plenty of tough games to boost their overall SoS, these games against BAD teams artificially boost their goal totals.  That being said, kudos to Calvin and Luther for blowing those teams out of the water, the same of which cannot be said for Tufts, Hopkins, and F&M against the likes of Trinity, Neumann, and Ursinus.   
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on October 30, 2019, 02:02:11 PM
Hey, Neumann tied Scranton and beat a 9-7 Randolph-Macon!

(Kidding, your point is valid... Hop needed a pretty late goal to eke out a 2-1 home win against 4-11-1 Neumann.)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 30, 2019, 02:36:27 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Amherst
12-0-2
0.608
5-0-2
12-0-2
1
2.
Tufts
10-2-2
0.611
6-2-1
10-2-2
2
3.
Connecticut College
9-3-2
0.606
2-3-2
9-3-2
4
4.
Middlebury
7-2-5
0.609
2-2-2
7-2-5
3
5.
Brandeis
9-3-4
0.585
2-3-1
9-3-4
5
6.
Williams
7-3-4
0.577
4-3-1
7-3-4
9
7.
Babson
10-5-2
0.570
2-3-2
10-5-2
7
8.
WPI
10-2-4
0.577
0-0-4
10-2-4
6
9.
Bates
8-5-1
0.567
2-4-0
8-5-1
10
10.
Keene State
12-5-0
0.564
0-2-0
12-5-0
8
11.
Endicott
9-5-2
0.553
1-2-0
9-5-2
--
12.
Eastern Connecticut
14-2-0
0.494
3-1-0
14-2-0
--

EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
RPI
13-1-2
0.570
5-0-1
13-1-2
1
2.
Oneonta State
15-2-0
0.554
3-1-0
15-2-0
2
3.
Hobart
12-4-1
0.566
5-2-0
12-4-1
4
4.
Ithaca
11-3-2
0.557
3-1-2
11-3-2
3
5.
Rochester
9-5-0
0.553
2-3-0
9-5-0
--
6.
Vassar
8-5-1
0.584
1-2-0
8-6-1
8
7.
Clarkson
8-4-3
0.545
4-1-2
8-4-3
--
8.
Skidmore
6-5-4
0.579
2-2-2
6-5-4
5

MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Johns Hopkins
12-2-1
0.619
4-2-1
12-2-1
1
2.
Franklin and Marshall
13-2-0
0.604
4-1-0
13-2-0
2
3.
Messiah
13-2-2
0.573
3-2-1
13-2-2
3
4.
Swarthmore
10-2-3
0.602
2-1-2
10-2-3
4
5.
Gettysburg
9-5-1
0.631
3-4-1
9-5-1
6
6.
Dickinson
9-6-0
0.626
4-5-0
9-6-0
--
7.
Haverford
7-5-3
0.625
2-2-2
7-5-3
5
8.
Elizabethtown
10-4-2
0.549
1-3-0
10-4-2
7
9.
Catholic
15-2-1
0.518
1-1-1
15-2-1
9
10.
Lycoming
10-6-0
0.586
0-5-0
10-6-0
10

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Washington and Lee
11-2-3
0.605
3-1-2
11-2-3
3
2.
Christopher Newport
11-2-3
0.606
3-2-2
11-2-3
1
3.
Mary Washington
11-3-3
0.633
2-2-2
11-3-3
2
4.
Roanoke
11-1-3
0.558
1-0-2
12-1-3
4
5.
Oglethorpe
12-3-0
0.559
2-2-0
12-3-0
5
6.
Centre
13-3-1
0.569
3-3-0
13-3-1
6
7.
Ramapo
10-1-5
0.584
1-0-2
10-1-5
--
8.
Rowan
8-4-3
0.611
2-0-2
8-4-3
7
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 30, 2019, 02:36:59 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
John Carroll
13-2-2
0.614
4-2-1
13-2-2
1
2.
Kenyon
11-1-2
0.573
3-1-1
13-1-2
2
3.
Ohio Wesleyan
10-4-3
0.619
5-3-2
10-4-3
3
4.
Ohio Northern
11-4-2
0.596
3-3-1
12-4-2
4
5.
Mount Union
9-2-4
0.546
1-1-1
9-2-4
5
6.
Otterbein
11-5-0
0.560
1-3-0
11-5-0
6
7.
Hanover
8-4-1
0.550
2-3-0
9-5-1
7
8.
Capital
7-4-4
0.556
1-2-2
7-4-4
8

CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Calvin
16-1-0
0.582
4-1-0
17-1-0
1
2.
Chicago
8-1-5
0.661
4-1-3
8-1-5
2
3.
North Park
12-4-0
0.611
2-3-0
12-4-0
3
4.
Kalamazoo
8-3-2
0.594
3-2-0
9-3-2
4
5.
North Central (Ill.)
10-5-1
0.591
2-2-0
10-5-1
7
6.
Wheaton (Ill.)
10-4-2
0.590
1-3-1
10-4-2
5
7.
Hope
12-5-0
0.573
1-4-0
12-5-0
6

NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Central
13-2-2
0.583
3-0-1
13-2-2
2
2.
Luther
12-3-1
0.587
2-2-0
13-3-1
1
3.
Loras
14-4-1
0.580
1-4-0
14-4-1
3
4.
St. Norbert
12-4-2
0.563
2-1-0
12-4-2
6
5.
St. Thomas
10-3-3
0.582
0-3-1
10-3-3
4
6.
Gustavus Adolphus
13-3-0
0.540
1-1-0
13-3-0
5
7.
Dubuque
9-5-2
0.567
1-3-0
9-5-2
--

WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 30, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
10-3-2
0.559
2-1-0
10-3-2
2
2.
Colorado College
9-5-0
0.576
2-2-0
12-5-0
3
3.
Trinity (Texas)
8-3-2
0.614
0-3-1
9-4-2
1
4.
Whitman
10-4-0
0.543
1-1-0
12-5-0
4
5.
Hardin-Simmons
11-2-1
0.491
2-0-0
13-2-1
6
6.
Redlands
7-3-3
0.517
1-0-3
7-4-3
--
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 01, 2019, 07:38:59 PM
As we think about teams' chances of gaining an at-large berth, something to keep in mind is that the men's tournament has been expanded to 64 teams this year and that means 21 Pool C at-large berths, two more than recent years.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 02, 2019, 08:59:20 PM
Chicago is first team to book their place in the 2019 NCAA Tournament.  With last night's win over Case Western, they are now guaranteed a share of the UAA title, and because they hold the head-to-head tie-breaker over 2nd place NYU, Chicago has locked up the UAA automatic berth.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2019, 09:11:32 PM
Quote from: YoungBuck on October 30, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 29, 2019, 09:49:21 PM
Calvin's schedule isn't weak. The Knights have played five matches thus far against NCAA-regionally-ranked opponents: Ohio Wesleyan, Ohio Northern, Chicago, Hope, and Kalamazoo. It's not Murderer's Row or anything, but it's good enough for an SOS that's just a shade under .600. Heaven knows that the abandonment of the double round-robin starting two years ago was the best decision that the people who run the MIAA could've ever made, and Ryan Souders seems to be making the most of that decision. Massey ranks Calvin's SOS 48th in the nation, which is better than RPI's or SUNY Oneonta's.

Luther had the 13th highest SOS of the 66 teams ranked in this past week's NCAA regional rankings, and three of Luther's opponents (St. Thomas, Central, and Loras) are RR. But the Norse have an SOS that's only ranked 100th by Massey, which may not be weak in the strict sense of the word -- after all, it's in the top quarter percentile in a division that has 419 teams -- but it's not at all impressive by national standards. The one thing that I'll say for Luther's schedule is that the Norse have hardly played any losing teams this season; only four of their 16 opponents to date (Johnson & Wales CO, St. Scholastica, Coe, and Nebraska Wesleyan) are under .500 at the moment.

While you're right about the overall SoS numbers of Calvin and Luther, just looking at SoS misses the spirit of the post.  Calvin's 62 goal number, while impressive, looks a bit more pedestrian when you take away the 16 combined goals they scored against Massey #303 Olivet and #238 Greenville.  Same for Luther's 47 goals if you take away the 12 goals against #382 Buena Vista and #230 NE Wesleyan.  While they both added plenty of tough games to boost their overall SoS, these games against BAD teams artificially boost their goal totals.  That being said, kudos to Calvin and Luther for blowing those teams out of the water, the same of which cannot be said for Tufts, Hopkins, and F&M against the likes of Trinity, Neumann, and Ursinus.   
Quote from: YoungBuck on October 30, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 29, 2019, 09:49:21 PM
Calvin's schedule isn't weak. The Knights have played five matches thus far against NCAA-regionally-ranked opponents: Ohio Wesleyan, Ohio Northern, Chicago, Hope, and Kalamazoo. It's not Murderer's Row or anything, but it's good enough for an SOS that's just a shade under .600. Heaven knows that the abandonment of the double round-robin starting two years ago was the best decision that the people who run the MIAA could've ever made, and Ryan Souders seems to be making the most of that decision. Massey ranks Calvin's SOS 48th in the nation, which is better than RPI's or SUNY Oneonta's.

Luther had the 13th highest SOS of the 66 teams ranked in this past week's NCAA regional rankings, and three of Luther's opponents (St. Thomas, Central, and Loras) are RR. But the Norse have an SOS that's only ranked 100th by Massey, which may not be weak in the strict sense of the word -- after all, it's in the top quarter percentile in a division that has 419 teams -- but it's not at all impressive by national standards. The one thing that I'll say for Luther's schedule is that the Norse have hardly played any losing teams this season; only four of their 16 opponents to date (Johnson & Wales CO, St. Scholastica, Coe, and Nebraska Wesleyan) are under .500 at the moment.

While you're right about the overall SoS numbers of Calvin and Luther, just looking at SoS misses the spirit of the post.  Calvin's 62 goal number, while impressive, looks a bit more pedestrian when you take away the 16 combined goals they scored against Massey #303 Olivet and #238 Greenville.  Same for Luther's 47 goals if you take away the 12 goals against #382 Buena Vista and #230 NE Wesleyan.  While they both added plenty of tough games to boost their overall SoS, these games against BAD teams artificially boost their goal totals.  That being said, kudos to Calvin and Luther for blowing those teams out of the water, the same of which cannot be said for Tufts, Hopkins, and F&M against the likes of Trinity, Neumann, and Ursinus.

Sure, but you said "offensive potency and balance, albeit against relatively weak schedules", not "relatively weak teams".
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.

Could end up Calvin and Chicago both get #1s.  Calvin typically gets placed with OWU, JCU, Kenyon, etc 

And I think JHU or F&M could definitely snare that Jersey regional.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
Btw, I'm sure Mr. Shirk has addressed this in an article, but I had no clue that there is/was a ACAA tournament and with unusual travel.  The men played at Presentation of Mary Academy in Hudson, NH.  Santa Cruz, UW-W and Finlandia all to New Hampshire along with relative local Pine Manor in Massachusetts.  They money spent must be as much or more as any other conference tourney and maybe the NCAA tourney too.  Pine Manor lost in the semis but had a phenomenal season (which I think is the kind of school that no one can be sure will still be open from year to year).
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 03, 2019, 10:08:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
Btw, I'm sure Mr. Shirk has addressed this in an article, but I had no clue that there is/was a ACAA tournament and with unusual travel.

Yes, that was covered in the What's New in 2019? (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/columns/christan-shirk/2019/new-in-2019) article (halfway through the Conference Musical Chairs section) and in the similar article before last season as well.

Yes, a very unusual arrangement.  And a very expensive proposition for the conference tournament. 

BTW, Pine Manor was the conference tournament host, but held the games Presentation of Mary Academy in Hudson, NH as you mentioned.  The women's tournament was hosted by UC Santa Cruz with Mills (just up the road in Oakland), Finlandia (Upper Penisula Michigan) and Pratt (Brooklyn, NY) participating.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2019, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.

When did it jump from 62 to 64? I have not seen this changed noted anywhere for this year.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2019, 10:07:05 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.

Could end up Calvin and Chicago both get #1s.  Calvin typically gets placed with OWU, JCU, Kenyon, etc 

And I think JHU or F&M could definitely snare that Jersey regional.

Will know more later but my guess right now would be these teams battling it out:

Amherst/Tufts
JHU/Oneonta/F&M
JC/Kenyon
Calvin/Chicago
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 04, 2019, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2019, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.

When did it jump from 62 to 64? I have not seen this changed noted anywhere for this year.

See page 17 of the Pre-Championships 2019-20 Manual. It's been out for months now.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2019-20D3XSO_PreChampsManual.pdf
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 04, 2019, 01:02:37 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 04, 2019, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2019, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.

When did it jump from 62 to 64? I have not seen this changed noted anywhere for this year.

See page 17 of the Pre-Championships 2019-20 Manual. It's been out for months now.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2019-20D3XSO_PreChampsManual.pdf

Months might be an exaggeration, . . . at least for the general public as the manual is typically only available on-line in very late-September or in October.  And this year was no different.  And that's why I did not mention this change in the What's New in 2019? (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/columns/christan-shirk/2019/new-in-2019) article on D3soccer.com back at the beginning of the season.  I think the numbers would have allowed them 63 teams last year, but for some reason it stayed at 62.  The D-III Manual specifies an access ratio of about 6.5, which gives some flexibility, but traditionally they have rounded down to arrive at the size of the tournament field.  This year they rounded up to reach the full, maximum 64-team field.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 04, 2019, 01:54:28 PM
I saw it appear online in late September, and it's now November 4, so I'm using the word "months" a bit elastically. :D

As for the field not being raised to 63 teams in the past, I think it was Dave McHugh over on the men's basketball section of d3boards.com who said that he'd been told by an NCAA official that field size in the postseason tournament of any given sport only goes up by increments of two, presumably for reasons of bracket balance.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 04, 2019, 03:11:50 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Amherst
2. Calvin
3. Tufts
4. Messiah
5. Oneonta
6. Kenyon
7. Hopkins
8. Chicago
9. RPI
10. F&M
-------------------------
11. John Carroll
12. Roanoke
13. Conn College
14. Central
15. W&L
16. Luther
17. CNU
18. Loras
19. Middlebury
-------------------------
20. Catholic
21. Centre
22. Swarthmore
23. North Park
24. Mary Wash
25. St. Thomas
RV: Brandeis, Williams, St. Joes (Me), Ithaca, Rochester, Ogelthorpe, Ramapo, Ohio Northern, PSU-Behrend, Kalamazoo, Gustavus Adolphus, St. Norbert, Trinity (Tx)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 05, 2019, 12:58:34 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 04, 2019, 01:02:37 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 04, 2019, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2019, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on November 03, 2019, 05:41:42 PM
With only a week of pre tournament soccer left who are the four favorites for 1 seeds and home field until the final four. Given the expansion to 64 there will be no more first round byes so being the top 2 seeds is less consequential. 

I think as of now it is:
New England + New York bracket-Amherst
New England+New Jersey+Pennsylvania-Tufts/JHU+F&M
Midwest 1 (Greater Chicago + Michigan): Calvin
Midwest 2 (Ohio+ Iowa+Maybe texas/california: JCU + Kenyon

Its always hard to predict with geography playing such a role but this is my best bet.

When did it jump from 62 to 64? I have not seen this changed noted anywhere for this year.

See page 17 of the Pre-Championships 2019-20 Manual. It's been out for months now.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/soccer/d3/common/2019-20D3XSO_PreChampsManual.pdf

Months might be an exaggeration, . . . at least for the general public as the manual is typically only available on-line in very late-September or in October.  And this year was no different.  And that's why I did not mention this change in the What's New in 2019? (https://d3soccer.prestosports.com/columns/christan-shirk/2019/new-in-2019) article on D3soccer.com back at the beginning of the season.  I think the numbers would have allowed them 63 teams last year, but for some reason it stayed at 62.  The D-III Manual specifies an access ratio of about 6.5, which gives some flexibility, but traditionally they have rounded down to arrive at the size of the tournament field.  This year they rounded up to reach the full, maximum 64-team field.

Great info thank you!  ;D
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 05, 2019, 01:49:43 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 04, 2019, 03:11:50 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Amherst
2. Calvin
3. Tufts
4. Messiah
5. Oneonta
6. Kenyon
7. Hopkins
8. Chicago
9. RPI
10. F&M
-------------------------
11. John Carroll
12. Roanoke
13. Conn College
14. Central
15. W&L
16. Luther
17. CNU
18. Loras
19. Middlebury
-------------------------
20. Catholic
21. Centre
22. Swarthmore
23. North Park
24. Mary Wash
25. St. Thomas
RV: Brandeis, Williams, St. Joes (Me), Ithaca, Rochester, Ogelthorpe, Ramapo, Ohio Northern, PSU-Behrend, Kalamazoo, Gustavus Adolphus, St. Norbert, Trinity (Tx)

MAF Top 25
1. Amherst
2. Calvin
3. Messiah
4. Tufts
5. Kenyon
6. Oneonta
7. Hopkins
8. W&L
9. F&M
10. Chicago
11. John Carroll
12. CNU
13. Middlebury
14. RPI
15. Conn College
16. Roanoke
17. PSU Behrend
18. Catholic
19. Mary Wash
20. St. Joe's (Me)
21. Ogelthorpe
22. Central
23. Ramapo
24. Ohio Wesleyan
25. Ithaca
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
An interesting development is taking place in the SLIAC. This school year the member schools of the league instituted new sportsmanship rules penalizing teams that draw excessive sportsmanship infractions in their various sports (ejections in baseball and softball, Class A technical fouls in men's and women's basketball, etc.). In men's and women's soccer, the new rule instituted by the SLIAC is that any team that has accumulated 35 yellow cards or more cannot take part in the league's postseason tournament.

Right away this has had an impact. Iowa Wesleyan, which has either 36 or 40 yellows (depending upon whether you're looking at the SLIAC stats or the explanatory tweet sent out by IWU), has been disqualified from appearing in the SLIAC tourney. This is pretty significant, as the Tigers won the SLIAC title with an 8-0-1 record this season. Instead, Principia (7-2 in SLIAC play) will be the #1 seed in the SLIAC tourney. Since Iowa Wesleyan's chances of drawing a Pool C berth are nonexistent, the season is over for the Tigers.

IWU appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

To the best of my knowledge, the SLIAC is the first and only league in D3 to have implemented sportsmanship rules of this nature.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 05, 2019, 03:05:10 PM
Yes - as Sager indicated, the NCAA (Division III committees essentially) rather have brackets increase in size via even numbers for bracket balance and other things. They don't like adding one this year, adding one next year, adding ... etc. Just works easier that way.

There are exceptions especially for rapidly growing sports (see lacrosse) where sometimes the addition has to come a bit quicker and not perfectly, but that doesn't tend to be one team at a time. The other exception would also be if the addition one is seen as the only addition for a bit of time - like three or four years - something they can easily see coming in terms of membership. They wouldn't punish the sport to add one when the next addition might not come for four or five years.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 05, 2019, 03:19:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
An interesting development is taking place in the SLIAC. This school year the member schools of the league instituted new sportsmanship rules penalizing teams that draw excessive sportsmanship infractions in their various sports (ejections in baseball and softball, Class A technical fouls in men's and women's basketball, etc.). In men's and women's soccer, the new rule instituted by the SLIAC is that any team that has accumulated 35 yellow cards or more cannot take part in the league's postseason tournament.

Right away this has had an impact. Iowa Wesleyan, which has either 36 or 40 yellows (depending upon whether you're looking at the SLIAC stats or the explanatory tweet sent out by IWU), has been disqualified from appearing in the SLIAC tourney. This is pretty significant, as the Tigers won the SLIAC title with an 8-0-1 record this season. Instead, Principia (7-2 in SLIAC play) will be the #1 seed in the SLIAC tourney. Since Iowa Wesleyan's chances of drawing a Pool C berth are nonexistent, the season is over for the Tigers.

IWU appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

To the best of my knowledge, the SLIAC is the first and only league in D3 to have implemented sportsmanship rules of this nature.

Never a fan of blanket rules like this. Yellow cards aren't necessarily bad sportsmanship plays. I generally led my youth club and h.s. teams in yellow cards, I also was, at least at the time, what was called the "marking back." I was always assigned man to man on the opposing team's best offensive mid or striker. Not a style of play you see very often anymore, but most of my youth coaches learned soccer, if they even bothered to learn anything, from VHS tapes. I would say I played hard, but I didn't play with bad sportsmanship. I never received a straight red but I racked up a lot of professional fouls. It's part of the game as a defender. That's why yellows are given, as warnings.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
An interesting development is taking place in the SLIAC. This school year the member schools of the league instituted new sportsmanship rules penalizing teams that draw excessive sportsmanship infractions in their various sports (ejections in baseball and softball, Class A technical fouls in men's and women's basketball, etc.). In men's and women's soccer, the new rule instituted by the SLIAC is that any team that has accumulated 35 yellow cards or more cannot take part in the league's postseason tournament.

Right away this has had an impact. Iowa Wesleyan, which has either 36 or 40 yellows (depending upon whether you're looking at the SLIAC stats or the explanatory tweet sent out by IWU), has been disqualified from appearing in the SLIAC tourney. This is pretty significant, as the Tigers won the SLIAC title with an 8-0-1 record this season. Instead, Principia (7-2 in SLIAC play) will be the #1 seed in the SLIAC tourney. Since Iowa Wesleyan's chances of drawing a Pool C berth are nonexistent, the season is over for the Tigers.

IWU appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

To the best of my knowledge, the SLIAC is the first and only league in D3 to have implemented sportsmanship rules of this nature.

Wow!  That is very interesting.

From the SLIAC Sportsmanship Guidelines (https://www.sliac.org/information/Manual/Sportsmanship_Guidelines_-__Team_and_Individual_Limits.pdf)
QuoteTeam Sportsmanship Guidelines
Soccer----Maximum accumulated number of institution cards allowed before a team is disqualified from SLIAC
post-season play.       35 - Yellow cards      8 - Red Cards

Not quite sure how to interpret the combined yellow and red cards limits.  Does a team with 35 yellows and 8 reds get to play in the tournament, but a team with 36 yellows and no reds does not?  That doesn't seem fair or logical.  And I wonder how double yellows in a game that result in a red are counted: as two yellows or as one red?  Certainly not as two yellows and one red, right?

Given that different schools play a different number of non-conference games, shouldn't the limit be an average number per game?

BTW, the SLIAC stats do not include stats from Iowa Wesleyan's three games against non-Division III opponents.  They picked up 5 yellow cards in those games. Iowa Wesleyan had seven games in which they picked up 3 to 5 yellow cards.

Looking nationally, according to the NCAA statistics (which often has missing and/or duplicate box scores), seven men's teams have accumulated more yellow cards than Iowa Wesleyan and 21 total teams have exceeded the 35 yellow card threshold as of Sunday, November 4th.  The most red cards for a team is five.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/545
YELLOW CARDS
Last updated November 5, 2019 - Through games November 4, 2019
1   Rowan  48
2   Neumann  45
-   Piedmont  45
4   Cobleskill St.  44
5   Salisbury  42
6   Greensboro  41
7   Minn.-Morris  40
8   Iowa Wesleyan  39
9   Muskingum  38
10 Rutgers-Camden  37
-  Alvernia  37
-  Muhlenberg  37
-  La Roche  37
-  Huntingdon  37
-  Lasell  37
16 Beloit  36
-  Capital  36
-  Kean  36
-  Curry  36
-  Ozarks (AR)  36
-  Ferrum  36

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Buddham on November 05, 2019, 03:51:20 PM
35 cautions (or 8 reds) over a season for a team is plenty of leeway for the occasional tactical foul. League might also have (or consider having) a per player limit before a suspension. How the team exceeded 30 cautions and didn't rein themselves in is entirely on them. Perhaps they forgot about the new rule?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on November 05, 2019, 03:51:34 PM
Given the vagaries of refereeing styles, and as mentioned the variance in the number of out of conference games... Seems like a tally that sticks to conference games would be the most logical and fair.

Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 04:07:02 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 05, 2019, 03:05:10 PM
Yes - as Sager indicated, the NCAA (Division III committees essentially) rather have brackets increase in size via even numbers for bracket balance and other things. They don't like adding one this year, adding one next year, adding ... etc. Just works easier that way.

There are exceptions especially for rapidly growing sports (see lacrosse) where sometimes the addition has to come a bit quicker and not perfectly, but that doesn't tend to be one team at a time. The other exception would also be if the addition one is seen as the only addition for a bit of time - like three or four years - something they can easily see coming in terms of membership. They wouldn't punish the sport to add one when the next addition might not come for four or five years.

Division III Men's Soccer Tournament Field Size (2005-2015)
(since tournament field was expanded, i.e. the 6.5 access ratio was implemented, starting in 2005)
2005  -  57-team field
2006  -  57
2007  -  57
2008  -  58
2009  -  59
2010  -  60
2011  -  61
2012  -  62
2013  -  61
2014  -  61
2015  -  61
2016  -  62
2017  -  62
2018  -  62
2019  -  64

So there's been an odd (unbalanced???) number of teams over half the time.  And they didn't have a problem with adding (or subtracting) just one team per year looking at 2007 thru 2013.  They could have stepped up by two every other year during that stretch, but did not.

The "unbalance", if you want to call it that, lasts for the first round only, of a 6-round tournament.  I don't see what the big deal would be with an odd number of teams and byes, and why they'd want to avoid it.  And it doesn't seem they have avoided it.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
An interesting development is taking place in the SLIAC. This school year the member schools of the league instituted new sportsmanship rules penalizing teams that draw excessive sportsmanship infractions in their various sports (ejections in baseball and softball, Class A technical fouls in men's and women's basketball, etc.). In men's and women's soccer, the new rule instituted by the SLIAC is that any team that has accumulated 35 yellow cards or more cannot take part in the league's postseason tournament.

Right away this has had an impact. Iowa Wesleyan, which has either 36 or 40 yellows (depending upon whether you're looking at the SLIAC stats or the explanatory tweet sent out by IWU), has been disqualified from appearing in the SLIAC tourney. This is pretty significant, as the Tigers won the SLIAC title with an 8-0-1 record this season. Instead, Principia (7-2 in SLIAC play) will be the #1 seed in the SLIAC tourney. Since Iowa Wesleyan's chances of drawing a Pool C berth are nonexistent, the season is over for the Tigers.

IWU appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

To the best of my knowledge, the SLIAC is the first and only league in D3 to have implemented sportsmanship rules of this nature.

Wow!  That is very interesting.

From the SLIAC Sportsmanship Guidelines (https://www.sliac.org/information/Manual/Sportsmanship_Guidelines_-__Team_and_Individual_Limits.pdf)
QuoteTeam Sportsmanship Guidelines
Soccer----Maximum accumulated number of institution cards allowed before a team is disqualified from SLIAC
post-season play.       35 - Yellow cards      8 - Red Cards

Not quite sure how to interpret the combined yellow and red cards limits.  Does a team with 35 yellows and 8 reds get to play in the tournament, but a team with 36 yellows and no reds does not?  That doesn't seem fair or logical.

The disqualification meted out to the Tigers indicates that there's no crossover in terms of card types. The rule is either 35 yellows or eight reds; no combination thereof is involved. The SLIAC explicitly disqualified IWU on the basis of the yellow-card accumulation.

Iowa Wesleyan, incidentally, has picked up only one red card this season. The two national leaders in this dubious category are Mitchell and Neumann, who, as you noted, have five apiece.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 03:46:51 PMAnd I wonder how double yellows in a game that result in a red are counted: as two yellows or as one red?  Certainly not as two yellows and one red, right?

I didn't see anything specific about that, but my guess is that a double-yellow DQ is considered a yellow and a red by the SLIAC, since that's how it reads in the scorebook.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 03:46:51 PMGiven that different schools play a different number of non-conference games, shouldn't the limit be an average number per game?

That sounds reasonable.

Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 03:46:51 PMBTW, the SLIAC stats do not include stats from Iowa Wesleyan's three games against non-Division III opponents.  They picked up 5 yellow cards in those games. Iowa Wesleyan had seven games in which they picked up 3 to 5 yellow cards.

Looking nationally, according to the NCAA statistics (which often has missing and/or duplicate box scores), seven men's teams have accumulated more yellow cards than Iowa Wesleyan and 21 total teams have exceeded the 35 yellow card threshold as of Sunday, November 4th.  The most red cards for a team is five.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/545
YELLOW CARDS
Last updated November 5, 2019 - Through games November 4, 2019
1   Rowan  48
2   Neumann  45
-   Piedmont  45
4   Cobleskill St.  44
5   Salisbury  42
6   Greensboro  41
7   Minn.-Morris  40
8   Iowa Wesleyan  39
9   Muskingum  38
10 Rutgers-Camden  37
-  Alvernia  37
-  Muhlenberg  37
-  La Roche  37
-  Huntingdon  37
-  Lasell  37
16 Beloit  36
-  Capital  36
-  Kean  36
-  Curry  36
-  Ozarks (AR)  36
-  Ferrum  36

I'm curious as to whether or not this new rule is going to catch on elsewhere. It does seem to me that, if it is going to be emulated by other leagues, it ouoght to be tweaked a little, at least as far as men's soccer is concerned.

Quote from: Buddham on November 05, 2019, 03:51:20 PM
35 cautions (or 8 reds) over a season for a team is plenty of leeway for the occasional tactical foul. League might also have (or consider having) a per player limit before a suspension. How the team exceeded 30 cautions and didn't rein themselves in is entirely on them. Perhaps they forgot about the new rule?

Given the fact that Iowa Wesleyan is clearly the best team in the league -- after all, the Tigers won the league by a game and a half -- I agree that the onus is on the Tigers for not adjusting their play (or their demeanor) to the new rule later on in the season, when IWU was in the driver's seat in the standings but was coming dangerously close to the 35-yellow suspension line.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 05, 2019, 03:51:34 PM
Given the vagaries of refereeing styles, and as mentioned the variance in the number of out of conference games... Seems like a tally that sticks to conference games would be the most logical and fair.

In terms of tweaking the rule, that seems by far the most sensible adjustment.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 05, 2019, 04:20:23 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 04:07:02 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 05, 2019, 03:05:10 PM
Yes - as Sager indicated, the NCAA (Division III committees essentially) rather have brackets increase in size via even numbers for bracket balance and other things. They don't like adding one this year, adding one next year, adding ... etc. Just works easier that way.

There are exceptions especially for rapidly growing sports (see lacrosse) where sometimes the addition has to come a bit quicker and not perfectly, but that doesn't tend to be one team at a time. The other exception would also be if the addition one is seen as the only addition for a bit of time - like three or four years - something they can easily see coming in terms of membership. They wouldn't punish the sport to add one when the next addition might not come for four or five years.

Division III Men's Soccer Tournament Field Size (2005-2015)
(since tournament field was expanded, i.e. the 6.5 access ratio was implemented, starting in 2005)
2005  -  57-team field
2006  -  57
2007  -  57
2008  -  58
2009  -  59
2010  -  60
2011  -  61
2012  -  62
2013  -  61
2014  -  61
2015  -  61
2016  -  62
2017  -  62
2018  -  62
2019  -  64

So there's been an odd (unbalanced???) number of teams over half the time.  And they didn't have a problem with adding (or subtracting) just one team per year looking at 2007 thru 2013.  They could have stepped up by two every other year during that stretch, but did not.

The "unbalance", if you want to call it that, lasts for the first round only, of a 6-round tournament.  I don't see what the big deal would be with an odd number of teams and byes, and why they'd want to avoid it.  And it doesn't seem they have avoided it.
The additions to the brackets has been more of a recent development - say the last five years - because bids were just being added for the smallest of reasons. However, even in your example there are periods of time where the addition of one made sense. Between 2013 and last season just one team was added which helped get the bracket to an even number as well. But that is a six year period before we saw two additions.

But you also show why throwing a bid in there wasn't probably the best idea. From 2008 to 2012 a single bid was added each year. Maybe there was good reason for that, but in 2013 they had to retract a bid. When you look at membership even sport-specific one can see the trends of increase or decrease in numbers. If they had that thinking in 2011-2013 I would contend they would have never gotten to 62 thus immediately removing a bid the next year.

That also adds confusion to the entire process. "Wait, I thought the bracket was at 62? What happened?!"

Every time a bid is added, there are significant costs added to the bracket. One can save on costs if the bids are added strategically or sensibly - not just thrown because the math comes close to allowing it. When looking at membership and sponsorship, usually we all can see if addition and even subtraction is needed. Sure, the subtraction is sometimes harder to see coming, but you can build that in if necessary in the math.

Again, the decision to calm down additional bids is more of a recent way of thinking - and it is a division-wide thinking for all sports. It comes because of things like what you showed between 2012 and 2014. It also comes because at that time DIII went through a budget surplus to a deficit almost in the blink of an eye and serious questions of how the money was being spent had to be asked. Questions like: do we simply throw bids to sports whenever they get close to the sponsorship number or do we make sure we make smart decisions with those total bids.

Men's basketball went through it a few years ago. There was an argument to be made that the bracket could be at 63. The NCAA (Division III specifically) held off knowing they would go to 64 the next season (if memory serves). It would both help keep the bracket balanced, allow for the surprise of losing membership, and allow for budgets to be ready for the change.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 04:20:36 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 04:07:02 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 05, 2019, 03:05:10 PM
Yes - as Sager indicated, the NCAA (Division III committees essentially) rather have brackets increase in size via even numbers for bracket balance and other things. They don't like adding one this year, adding one next year, adding ... etc. Just works easier that way.

There are exceptions especially for rapidly growing sports (see lacrosse) where sometimes the addition has to come a bit quicker and not perfectly, but that doesn't tend to be one team at a time. The other exception would also be if the addition one is seen as the only addition for a bit of time - like three or four years - something they can easily see coming in terms of membership. They wouldn't punish the sport to add one when the next addition might not come for four or five years.

Division III Men's Soccer Tournament Field Size (2005-2015)
(since tournament field was expanded, i.e. the 6.5 access ratio was implemented, starting in 2005)
2005  -  57-team field
2006  -  57
2007  -  57
2008  -  58
2009  -  59
2010  -  60
2011  -  61
2012  -  62
2013  -  61
2014  -  61
2015  -  61
2016  -  62
2017  -  62
2018  -  62
2019  -  64

So there's been an odd (unbalanced???) number of teams over half the time.  And they didn't have a problem with adding (or subtracting) just one team per year looking at 2007 thru 2013.  They could have stepped up by two every other year during that stretch, but did not.

The "unbalance", if you want to call it that, lasts for the first round only, of a 6-round tournament.  I don't see what the big deal would be with an odd number of teams and byes, and why they'd want to avoid it.  And it doesn't seem they have avoided it.

My impression is that it's a recently-implemented D3 policy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if D3 tournament budget allotments have something to do with this, too, since, as D-Mac indicated, there's an "other things" apart from the issue of bracket balance.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 04:23:24 PM
And, once again, someone says what I was about to say a few seconds quicker than I did. ;)

(Since D-Mac's the one who talked to the committee members and/or NCAA officials about this issue, I naturally defer to him, anyway.)
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 05:02:50 PM
Yeah, I can't remember clearly what happened back in 2011-2013 that it went up and back down. I think I may have concluded it was a counting/mathematical error, actually.  They used to show their math in the Pre-Championships Manual, and I would regularly find errors in their numbers and send them an e-mail.  The cynic in me figured they stopped showing their math so they couldn't be corrected anymore. Usually the mistakes didn't change the final rounded number, but I vaguely remember one year being fairly certain they goofed. Or maybe it was more simply a case of them rounding up that one year instead of rounding down as they did every other year (well, until this year).

D3soccer.com does the math every year to see if it supports the field size and the number of Pool B and C at-large berths, and it almost always has checked out.  The 2016 jump from 61 to 62 from came when the math said it should, not a year early or a year late.  I'm not saying they weren't looking to get to an even number, as I have no clue about that, but it would have happened that year regardless of any effort to move to and stick to even-numbered field sizes.

I get the desire to limit how often you change the tournament field size from a planning and budgeting standpoint, and have no problem with that.  I just don't see why "balance" has any need to be a consideration, especially once the tournament field is nearing the maximum 64-team size.  If D-Mac says it is a consideration based on talking to committee members, I also defer to him, but find it completely unnecessary and ridiculous.  It is only "unbalanced" for the first round, and for nearly 90% of the tournament teams there is absolutely no difference if there are three byes or two byes.  I think it reasonable to say that the field size should only be adjusted every two or three or four years (take your pick), but I can't begin to understand why you'd feel the need to jump in increments of two from even number to even number, again, especially when the number of byes is about half the number of 1st/2nd Round pods or less.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on November 05, 2019, 09:52:35 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2019, 03:46:51 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
An interesting development is taking place in the SLIAC. This school year the member schools of the league instituted new sportsmanship rules penalizing teams that draw excessive sportsmanship infractions in their various sports (ejections in baseball and softball, Class A technical fouls in men's and women's basketball, etc.). In men's and women's soccer, the new rule instituted by the SLIAC is that any team that has accumulated 35 yellow cards or more cannot take part in the league's postseason tournament.

Right away this has had an impact. Iowa Wesleyan, which has either 36 or 40 yellows (depending upon whether you're looking at the SLIAC stats or the explanatory tweet sent out by IWU), has been disqualified from appearing in the SLIAC tourney. This is pretty significant, as the Tigers won the SLIAC title with an 8-0-1 record this season. Instead, Principia (7-2 in SLIAC play) will be the #1 seed in the SLIAC tourney. Since Iowa Wesleyan's chances of drawing a Pool C berth are nonexistent, the season is over for the Tigers.

IWU appealed the decision, but the appeal was denied.

To the best of my knowledge, the SLIAC is the first and only league in D3 to have implemented sportsmanship rules of this nature.

Wow!  That is very interesting.

From the SLIAC Sportsmanship Guidelines (https://www.sliac.org/information/Manual/Sportsmanship_Guidelines_-__Team_and_Individual_Limits.pdf)
QuoteTeam Sportsmanship Guidelines
Soccer----Maximum accumulated number of institution cards allowed before a team is disqualified from SLIAC
post-season play.       35 - Yellow cards      8 - Red Cards

Not quite sure how to interpret the combined yellow and red cards limits.  Does a team with 35 yellows and 8 reds get to play in the tournament, but a team with 36 yellows and no reds does not?  That doesn't seem fair or logical.  And I wonder how double yellows in a game that result in a red are counted: as two yellows or as one red?  Certainly not as two yellows and one red, right?

Given that different schools play a different number of non-conference games, shouldn't the limit be an average number per game?

BTW, the SLIAC stats do not include stats from Iowa Wesleyan's three games against non-Division III opponents.  They picked up 5 yellow cards in those games. Iowa Wesleyan had seven games in which they picked up 3 to 5 yellow cards.

Looking nationally, according to the NCAA statistics (which often has missing and/or duplicate box scores), seven men's teams have accumulated more yellow cards than Iowa Wesleyan and 21 total teams have exceeded the 35 yellow card threshold as of Sunday, November 4th.  The most red cards for a team is five.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/soccer-men/d3/current/team/545
YELLOW CARDS
Last updated November 5, 2019 - Through games November 4, 2019
1   Rowan  48
2   Neumann  45
-   Piedmont  45
4   Cobleskill St.  44
5   Salisbury  42
6   Greensboro  41
7   Minn.-Morris  40
8   Iowa Wesleyan  39
9   Muskingum  38
10 Rutgers-Camden  37
-  Alvernia  37
-  Muhlenberg  37
-  La Roche  37
-  Huntingdon  37
-  Lasell  37
16 Beloit  36
-  Capital  36
-  Kean  36
-  Curry  36
-  Ozarks (AR)  36
-  Ferrum  36

Having seen Rowan play in person this year, it does not surprise me at all that they are the leaders in yellows. It's as much rugby as soccer when stepping on the pitch with the Profs.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on November 06, 2019, 01:49:06 PM
1   Amherst College   - 20
2   Calvin University - 9
3   Johns Hopkins University - 12
4   Franklin & Marshall College - 13
5   Tufts University - 10
6   University Of Chicago - 20
7   John Carroll University - 14
8   Messiah College   - 6
9   Kenyon College - 20
10   SUNY Oneonta
11   Washington & Lee University - 12
12   Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute - 12
13   Claremont-McKenna-Harvey Mudd-Scripps Colleges - 18
14   Central College
15   University Of Mary Washington - 17
16   Luther College
17   Roanoke College - 28
18   Connecticut College - 17
19   North Park University - 18
20   Penn State University-Behrend - 22
21   Catholic University
22   Colorado College - 20
23   Christopher Newport University - 24
24   University of Texas-Dallas
25   Ithaca College - 27

I couldn't find a few, scanning the rankings, but the overall picture is interesting to me. Messiah with only 6 cards on the year is astounding.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on November 06, 2019, 02:02:03 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 06, 2019, 01:49:06 PM
1   Amherst College   - 20
2   Calvin University - 9
3   Johns Hopkins University - 12
4   Franklin & Marshall College - 13
5   Tufts University - 10
6   University Of Chicago - 20
7   John Carroll University - 14
8   Messiah College   - 6
9   Kenyon College - 20
10   SUNY Oneonta - 24
11   Washington & Lee University - 12
12   Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute - 12
13   Claremont-McKenna-Harvey Mudd-Scripps Colleges - 18
14   Central College - 16
15   University Of Mary Washington - 17
16   Luther College - 22
17   Roanoke College - 28
18   Connecticut College - 17
19   North Park University - 18
20   Penn State University-Behrend - 22
21   Catholic University - 19
22   Colorado College - 20
23   Christopher Newport University - 24
24   University of Texas-Dallas - 20
25   Ithaca College - 27

I couldn't find a few, scanning the rankings, but the overall picture is interesting to me. Messiah with only 6 cards on the year is astounding.

Hopkins, I filled in your listing with the YC numbers missing - they are bolded above
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 06, 2019, 02:10:34 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Amherst
14-0-2
0.582
4-0-2
14-0-2
1
2.
Tufts
12-2-2
0.595
6-2-0
12-2-2
2
3.
Connecticut College
10-3-3
0.603
3-3-3
10-3-3
3
4.
Williams
8-3-5
0.580
4-3-2
8-3-5
6
5.
WPI
11-2-4
0.576
1-1-3
11-2-4
8
6.
Middlebury
7-2-7
0.614
1-2-4
7-2-7
4
7.
Babson
12-5-2
0.557
2-5-1
12-5-2
7
8.
Brandeis
9-5-4
0.581
1-4-1
9-5-4
5
9.
Endicott
11-5-2
0.545
1-3-0
11-5-2
11
10.
Bates
9-6-1
0.565
1-5-0
9-6-1
9
11.
Eastern Connecticut
16-2-0
0.493
3-1-0
16-2-0
12
12.
Keene State
13-6-0
0.540
0-3-0
13-6-0
10

EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
RPI
14-2-2
0.576
6-2-2
14-2-2
1
2.
Ithaca
12-4-2
0.562
3-2-1
12-4-2
4
3.
Rochester
11-5-0
0.567
4-2-0
11-5-0
5
4.
Hobart
13-4-1
0.561
3-3-1
13-4-1
3
5.
Vassar
9-6-1
0.592
2-4-0
9-7-1
6
6.
Oneonta State
15-2-0
0.551
0-1-0
15-2-0
2
7.
Cortland State
8-6-3
0.581
1-3-1
8-6-3
--
8.
Clarkson
10-4-3
0.527
3-1-2
10-4-3
7

MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Johns Hopkins
14-2-1
0.613
4-2-1
14-2-1
1
2.
Franklin and Marshall
15-2-0
0.602
5-1-0
15-2-0
2
3.
Messiah
14-2-2
0.569
4-2-0
14-2-2
3
4.
Swarthmore
11-3-3
0.593
2-3-1
11-3-3
4
5.
Haverford
9-5-3
0.624
2-3-2
9-5-3
7
6.
Gettysburg
10-6-1
0.622
3-4-1
10-6-1
5
7.
Catholic
16-2-1
0.526
3-1-1
16-2-1
9
8.
Dickinson
10-7-0
0.624
3-6-0
10-7-0
6
9.
Lycoming
12-6-0
0.572
1-4-0
12-6-0
10
10.
Elizabethtown
10-5-2
0.568
0-4-0
10-5-2
8

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Washington and Lee
13-2-3
0.575
3-1-2
13-2-3
1
2.
Christopher Newport
12-2-3
0.597
3-2-2
12-2-3
2
3.
Mary Washington
12-3-3
0.622
2-2-2
12-3-3
3
4.
Centre
14-3-1
0.572
2-2-0
14-3-1
6
5.
Ramapo
11-1-5
0.579
1-0-1
11-1-5
7
6.
Rowan
10-4-3
0.609
1-1-2
10-4-3
8
7.
Roanoke
13-1-3
0.543
1-0-2
14-1-3
4
8.
Oglethorpe
13-3-0
0.549
2-2-0
13-3-0
5
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 06, 2019, 02:11:34 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
John Carroll
15-2-2
0.596
5-2-1
15-2-2
1
2.
Kenyon
13-1-2
0.565
3-1-1
15-1-2
2
3.
Ohio Wesleyan
12-4-3
0.589
5-3-2
12-4-3
3
4.
Ohio Northern
12-5-2
0.601
4-4-1
13-5-2
4
5.
Mount Union
10-3-4
0.544
2-1-1
10-3-4
5
6.
Otterbein
12-6-0
0.565
2-5-0
12-6-0
6
7.
Hanover
10-4-1
0.528
2-3-0
11-5-1
7
8.
Capital
8-5-4
0.557
1-3-2
8-5-4
8

CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Calvin
17-1-0
0.574
4-1-0
18-1-0
1
2.
Chicago
10-1-5
0.638
5-1-3
10-1-5
2
3.
North Park
13-4-1
0.607
3-3-1
13-4-1
3
4.
Kalamazoo
10-3-2
0.569
3-2-0
11-3-2
4
5.
North Central (Ill.)
11-5-2
0.580
2-2-0
11-5-2
5
6.
Wheaton (Ill.)
10-4-4
0.597
1-3-2
10-4-4
6
7.
Hope
13-5-0
0.573
1-4-0
13-5-0
7

NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Luther
13-4-1
0.587
4-2-0
14-4-1
2
2.
Central
14-2-2
0.560
3-1-0
14-2-2
1
3.
St. Thomas
11-3-3
0.579
0-3-2
11-3-3
5
4.
Loras
14-5-1
0.585
1-4-0
14-5-1
3
5.
Gustavus Adolphus
15-3-0
0.530
1-1-0
15-3-0
6
6.
St. Norbert
14-4-2
0.537
1-1-0
14-4-2
4
7.
Knox
14-3-2
0.532
1-2-1
14-3-2
--

WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2019

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
12-3-2
0.556
2-1-2
12-3-2
1
2.
Colorado College
9-5-0
0.572
2-2-0
13-5-0
2
3.
Trinity (Texas)
9-4-2
0.591
0-3-1
10-5-2
3
4.
Texas-Dallas
13-3-2
0.495
2-1-0
14-3-2
--
5.
Hardin-Simmons
12-3-1
0.492
2-0-0
14-3-1
5
6.
Redlands
9-3-3
0.508
0-0-3
9-4-3
6
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2019, 08:43:13 PM
There is perhaps no clearer lesson about the reality that "the criteria are the criteria" than the apparent oddities of Ithaca and Swat looking pretty good for Pool Cs after both had been declared done within the past 24 hours.  I wouldn't even be shocked to see Haverford and/or Wheaton and/or ONU get in.  Other recent examples of teams not even making their conference tourneys and then getting bids are RPI and OWU.  It's reasonable to think that a team not making their conference tourney doesn't deserve a bid, but that's not how it works.  Another oddity or perhaps unintended consequence is that having a great record and finishing first isn't always rewarded, especially in terms of SoS.  In the NCAC Kenyon's SoS will take another mild hit because of Oberlin's sub-500 record while OWU gets a boost from drawing Wabash.   And assuming OWU prevails tonight against Wabash the #2 team will get a big boost by playing Kenyon again while the boost for the Lords playing OWU will be more modest.  And then there is a situation where ONU loses in the OAC quarters but is spared another ranked loss because Marietta isn't ranked and isn't going to be ranked.  If ONU had advanced and then lost they would have most likely picked up a ranked loss.  One could even argue that Kenyon might have been better off losing to Oberlin today to keep their RvR intact, as playing OWU again exposes them to another ranked loss.  Of course, as the rules experts will remind us when they sniper in, just keep winning, win your AQ, and all will be fine.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 07, 2019, 10:19:57 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2019, 08:43:13 PM
There is perhaps no clearer lesson about the reality that "the criteria are the criteria" than the apparent oddities of Ithaca and Swat looking pretty good for Pool Cs after both had been declared done within the past 24 hours.  I wouldn't even be shocked to see Haverford and/or Wheaton and/or ONU get in.  Other recent examples of teams not even making their conference tourneys and then getting bids are RPI and OWU.  It's reasonable to think that a team not making their conference tourney doesn't deserve a bid, but that's not how it works.  Another oddity or perhaps unintended consequence is that having a great record and finishing first isn't always rewarded, especially in terms of SoS.  In the NCAC Kenyon's SoS will take another mild hit because of Oberlin's sub-500 record while OWU gets a boost from drawing Wabash.   And assuming OWU prevails tonight against Wabash the #2 team will get a big boost by playing Kenyon again while the boost for the Lords playing OWU will be more modest.  And then there is a situation where ONU loses in the OAC quarters but is spared another ranked loss because Marietta isn't ranked and isn't going to be ranked.  If ONU had advanced and then lost they would have most likely picked up a ranked loss.  One could even argue that Kenyon might have been better off losing to Oberlin today to keep their RvR intact, as playing OWU again exposes them to another ranked loss.  Of course, as the rules experts will remind us when they sniper in, just keep winning, win your AQ, and all will be fine.

I think we will see lots of movement from the 3rd to the final rankings across each region. There is already so much that has happened from even before these rankings were posted based upon the date when the games were played and accounted for in the 3rd rankings. So Ithaca sitting at what the regional ranking has looks way different than what they are looking at now. The same goes for Clarkson as they will have 2 head to head wins over Ithaca, a boost in SOS (is it enough of a boost though?) and similar RvR and overall resumes. They have to jump a few spots IMO. Oneonta has to be in a panic right now looking at that region but I think it will shift dramatically from what we already know and the same will go for other regions.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2019, 07:07:34 PM
Love how JCU plays at Home. They spread out their opponent(Marietta)  to the touch and they interchange very well. They keep the ball  on the carpet and are sending wide guys and defenders forward at the same time..Very entertaining stuff so far.


Update---Still 0-0 but Marietta is growing into the game and are a decent team on the defensive end. They are starting to force JCU to hit long balls into the path of their strikers which has had mixed results so far.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 08, 2019, 03:59:59 PM
Shatil Khoury's goal in Wednesday's CCIW semifinal between North Park and Elmhurst has gone viral on Instagram. It's had 21,000 views as of a couple of hours ago, about 11,000 likes, and over 40 comments. The goal's been dubbed "the Flip and Rip".

https://twitter.com/VikingsNPU/status/1192484134540783616/video/1
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 08, 2019, 04:05:26 PM
Here's a column from d3hoops.com about the SLIAC's new sportsmanship rules. Although it's written by a basketball writer and is published on the basketball site, it does deal extensively with the ramifications of the new rule from the perspective of soccer:

https://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/index
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: YoungBuck on November 08, 2019, 10:23:25 PM
https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/franklin-marshall-game-postponed-after-students-stage-a-sit-in/article_5152e590-0298-11ea-a936-cb3fefec5cc3.html

F&M had to cancel a basketball game this evening after students protested the Halloween costume choices of a group of basketball and soccer players worn and posted online last weekend.  They are also hosting the CC tournament this weekend, and I'd imagine tomorrow's games will see similar protests.  Definitely not what this program needs heading into the NCAAs.  I don't really know enough to speak on the issue and how it relates to students on F&M's campus, but figured this issue might interrupt games for 4 teams with Pool C and AQ aspirations (F&M, Gettysburg, Dickinson, Hopkins), and figured it warranted posting on the big thread.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on December 20, 2019, 12:12:21 PM
Pretty interesting look (https://www.facebook.com/d3soccer/photos/a.1789611971050014/2908318815845985/?type=3&theater) on D3soccer's Facebook page at the geographic spread of programs around the country. I knew the West required some traveling for teams to play opponents, but, man — did not fully appreciate the paucity of local competition west of the Mississippi.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 20, 2019, 01:04:14 PM
It's not bad for the ARC schools in eastern Iowa such as Loras, Luther, and Dubuque, because they're close enough to the large clusters of schools around Chicago and Milwaukee to be able to travel to those metro areas for an evening game and still get back to campus at a respectable hour. And of course the Twin Cities schools on the western side of the Mississippi are hardly more disadvantaged than those on the eastern side.

But, yeah, the farther away from the Father of Waters you get on the western side, the sparser the potential competition.

Travel is no picnic for D3 schools in the South, either.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 08, 2020, 07:38:29 AM
Trinity(TX)---

In late September this article comes out in a local San Antonio news outlet that Paul McGinlay gets his 500th win after recovering from open heart surgery.

https://foxsanantonio.com/sports/max-sports/trinity-soccer-coach-bounces-back-from-open-heart-surgery-to-earn-500th-career-win

So everything rolling smoothly....

Then, in what reads as a former disgruntled player, this op-ed in Trinity's school paper comes out after the season finishes. This is the most egregious act one could do before transferring out to your next school. Kid might as well have sucker punched McGinlay in the gut on his way out the door. It is basically a hit piece. While some of his complaints might be valid you most certainly do not air them in an op-ed for public consumption. Ugly stuff


https://www.trinitonian.com/my-experience-with-the-trinity-mens-soccer-team/



Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on January 08, 2020, 08:54:08 AM
It's a signed opinion piece. I don't mind it but I also have a degree in print journalism and was an editor of my college paper way back when. The author took responsibility, pointed out the good and the bad, and said there are things to work on. If it was anonymous or a true slam piece I'd be more skeptical, but this is simply what it represents to be. One player who decided that the program was both good and bad and wanted to make his voice heard in the hopes that change could be affected based on his experience.

He doesn't extrapolate much to the rest of the team, he doesn't say anything egregious about the coaches other than a struggle to communicate, and his bones to pick are well established issues in many competitive and collegiate programs. Over recruiting is an issue and sexual misconduct claims on campus are significant anywhere you look but hardly a month goes by without an NCAA team somewhere being implicated.

The piece would have been more impactful and credible if he wasn't on his way out the door when writing it, but he probably wouldn't have been welcome back had he not been leaving anyway. I hope he raised these concerns privately first, but if they weren't addressed after being raised privately, a public acknowledgment isn't necessarily a bad route to take.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: jknezek on January 08, 2020, 08:54:08 AM
It's a signed opinion piece. I don't mind it but I also have a degree in print journalism and was an editor of my college paper way back when. The author took responsibility, pointed out the good and the bad, and said there are things to work on. If it was anonymous or a true slam piece I'd be more skeptical, but this is simply what it represents to be. One player who decided that the program was both good and bad and wanted to make his voice heard in the hopes that change could be affected based on his experience.

He doesn't extrapolate much to the rest of the team, he doesn't say anything egregious about the coaches other than a struggle to communicate, and his bones to pick are well established issues in many competitive and collegiate programs. Over recruiting is an issue and sexual misconduct claims on campus are significant anywhere you look but hardly a month goes by without an NCAA team somewhere being implicated.

The piece would have been more impactful and credible if he wasn't on his way out the door when writing it, but he probably wouldn't have been welcome back had he not been leaving anyway. I hope he raised these concerns privately first, but if they weren't addressed after being raised privately, a public acknowledgment isn't necessarily a bad route to take.

I agree with all of this, and I'll add that the author of the opinion piece, Joshua Lai, was on the Academic Honor Roll for both semesters he played for Trinity (TX) and was on the Dean's List last spring. I think that this enhances his credibility; he's clearly not just a typical disgruntled jock badmouthing his program with respect to other issues in an attempt at misdirection from his true hidden complaint, a lack of consistent playing time for him. He's a serious student at a well-respected school ... or at least he was.

I'll be curious to see where he lands. As legitimate as his criticisms may be, his next coach may be wary of him in light of this.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on January 08, 2020, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
I'll add that the author of the opinion piece, Joshua Lai, was on the Academic Honor Roll for both semesters he played for Trinity (TX) and was on the Dean's List last spring. I think that this enhances his credibility; he's clearly not just a typical disgruntled jock badmouthing his program with respect to other issues in an attempt at misdirection from his true hidden complaint, a lack of consistent playing time for him.

I think that's yet to be determined. Just because he's strong in the classroom, doesn't mean he's not bitter about playing time and possessed a belief that his role would increase this year...
2017 - 14 GP, 0 starts
2018 - 18 GP, 1 start
2019 - 9 GP, 0 starts

"In my experience, expressions of favoritism are also not uncommon. These expressions are not always based on that player's performance. Players should get picked because they play well, not because they are liked by coach, and that is a principle I feel can not be disputed.

I'm never one to complain about playing time, but it certainly adds to the frustration of the experience when certain players are being afforded opportunities that other players deserve.

My own experience with the management of Trinity Soccer has been a mixed bag. I can't recall an instance where I have spoken to Coach Paul McGinlay individually about my experience with the program or role in the team. I've sat outside his office for an hour, waiting to speak to him, only to leave out of frustration. "


In any event, he sounds like an intelligent kid and I'm sure he'll find success wherever his path takes him.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 08, 2020, 01:59:50 PM
I agree with many of the opinions here counter to Mr. Right. Just because a student-athlete voices his or her opinions doesn't make it a "hit piece." As said earlier, if the person decided to be anonymous and not stand behind their words, then that argument could be stronger. However, this person said this is me, here are my thoughts, here are my frustrations, and here is why I am leaving. Take it or leave it.

There are women at Buffalo State who felt their opinions weren't being heard. They walked off the team in protest. They stood behind their thoughts and feelings as well. Let's not belittle college students, who are adults after all, for things they stand behind unless there are extreme acts on their part. What this gentleman did is a tent poll of our country. One doesn't have to agree with him, but to call this a "hit piece" is a mis-characterization in my opinion.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on January 08, 2020, 11:35:22 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
I'll add that the author of the opinion piece, Joshua Lai, was on the Academic Honor Roll for both semesters he played for Trinity (TX) and was on the Dean's List last spring. I think that this enhances his credibility; he's clearly not just a typical disgruntled jock badmouthing his program with respect to other issues in an attempt at misdirection from his true hidden complaint, a lack of consistent playing time for him.

I think that's yet to be determined. Just because he's strong in the classroom, doesn't mean he's not bitter about playing time and possessed a belief that his role would increase this year...
2017 - 14 GP, 0 starts
2018 - 18 GP, 1 start
2019 - 9 GP, 0 starts

"In my experience, expressions of favoritism are also not uncommon. These expressions are not always based on that player's performance. Players should get picked because they play well, not because they are liked by coach, and that is a principle I feel can not be disputed.

I'm never one to complain about playing time, but it certainly adds to the frustration of the experience when certain players are being afforded opportunities that other players deserve.

My own experience with the management of Trinity Soccer has been a mixed bag. I can't recall an instance where I have spoken to Coach Paul McGinlay individually about my experience with the program or role in the team. I've sat outside his office for an hour, waiting to speak to him, only to leave out of frustration. "


In any event, he sounds like an intelligent kid and I'm sure he'll find success wherever his path takes him.

I think that you missed my point. The word "hidden" in my post was there for a reason. He's not disguising his motives for writing the opinion piece. On the contrary, he's up-front about his agenda, which includes the fact that he's basically been ignored by his coach -- but which isn't confined to that.

His academic record indicates that he's not simply in school to play soccer. If he had been, then playing time would've been much more likely to be the only driving force behind this rather drastic step. As it is, his dedication to his studies thus lends credence to his insistence that a number of different things have bothered him about the program, favoritism and a lack of communication that he experienced firsthand being among them.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 02:30:07 PM
I'm not sure I'm seeing the relevance of being a good student with how one judges the article and its motivations.  I don't know if I would call it a "hit piece," but on the other hand it was a pretty bold move.  I wonder how devoted fans of some other highly esteemed (legendary?) coaches and programs would feel if this was their school, and if a good student from your school posted something similar.  And since he did post this, and is an adult, then he is open to whatever responses people have.  And certainly we can question aspects of what he wrote, like "I waited an hour, got frustrated,, and left."  Over 2.5 years he couldn't get the coach to meet with him?  Did he email?  Make an appointment?  he has called out McGinley in a very public way.  It's fair to wonder about motivations.  Are we going to criticize every top D3 program or aspiring to the top program for emphasizing winning?  There is probably no complaint more common among athletes than the playing time one.  Maybe some teammates will chime in.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 03:07:09 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 02:30:07 PM
I'm not sure I'm seeing the relevance of being a good student with how one judges the article and its motivations.

Again, it's because it reduces the odds that he's simply pulling the classic rhetorical move of using specious arguments to disguise his true agenda. He's not in school simply to play soccer, so therefore it's a lot less likely that his primary motivation as a student centers around what he considers to be an appropriate amount of playing time and is thus throwing in all of the stuff about sexual misconduct, over-recruiting, and the head coach's closed door as misdirection.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 02:30:07 PMI don't know if I would call it a "hit piece," but on the other hand it was a pretty bold move.  I wonder how devoted fans of some other highly esteemed (legendary?) coaches and programs would feel if this was their school, and if a good student from your school posted something similar.

I'd be pretty ticked off if this came from an NPU player. But I'd start asking a lot of questions of people in or close to the soccer program to see how much credence the complainant had, rather than defensively dismiss it out of hand.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 02:30:07 PMAnd since he did post this, and is an adult, then he is open to whatever responses people have.  And certainly we can question aspects of what he wrote, like "I waited an hour, got frustrated,, and left."  Over 2.5 years he couldn't get the coach to meet with him?  Did he email?  Make an appointment?

Yep. These are all valid questions. Opinion pieces tend to be selective about the facts, especially when the topic personally involves the author. I certainly hope that nobody has drawn any conclusions about Coach McGinlay or the Trinity (TX) program based solely upon one disaffected former player's opinions.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 02:30:07 PMhe has called out McGinley in a very public way.  It's fair to wonder about motivations.  Are we going to criticize every top D3 program or aspiring to the top program for emphasizing winning?

I'm not sure where we're being led to do that by this opinion piece.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 02:30:07 PMThere is probably no complaint more common among athletes than the playing time one.  Maybe some teammates will chime in.

That would be very helpful ... but it doesn't appear to me that the Trinity (TX) program has a following on these soccer boards. Perhaps a lurker or two with ties to the Tigers program will surprise us.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Sorry, but his primary motivation isn't disguised at all and has nothing to do with his GPA.  He's very clearly disgruntled about playing time.  He couches things and flip-flops a bit so as not to come across as too aggressive, but then he goes on to throw more gasoline on the fire with the side complaints.  Again, many athletic teams have poor reputations on campus, but imho he is obviously taking his parting shot and the talk about the team's reputation is part of bolstering his case.  And then he shares that when he does talk to the coach about leaving the coach was very helpful and apparently accessible.  And I'm not sure why this rubs me the wrong way, as I am far, far from a nationalist, but the guy is from New Zealand and was getting a great education at a great school. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 09, 2020, 07:17:08 AM
IMO it is a hit piece before walking out the door. He basically threw a molotov cocktail into the Trinity Men's Soccer lockeroom. Why not write this during the season? Or better yet the day after McGinlay recovered from open heart surgery? Try being man enough to write the piece and walk around campus for a couple months afterwards. Then he would of grabbed my attention and maybe a little respect..The whole thing is just classless.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 09, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Sorry, but his primary motivation isn't disguised at all and has nothing to do with his GPA.  He's very clearly disgruntled about playing time.  He couches things and flip-flops a bit so as not to come across as too aggressive, but then he goes on to throw more gasoline on the fire with the side complaints.  Again, many athletic teams have poor reputations on campus, but imho he is obviously taking his parting shot and the talk about the team's reputation is part of bolstering his case.  And then he shares that when he does talk to the coach about leaving the coach was very helpful and apparently accessible.  And I'm not sure why this rubs me the wrong way, as I am far, far from a nationalist, but the guy is from New Zealand and was getting a great education at a great school.

I disagree that it is his primary motivation. He was clearly at Trinity (TX) to get an education. And, for the third time, I didn't say that the lack of playing time was not a motivation for him. I said that he didn't disguise it -- using other excuses for bailing when you're really just ticked off about not getting on the field/floor is typical disgruntled-jock behavior -- which adds to his credibility. And even with that, as I said, it's an opinion piece by a college kid; it needs to be taken with a grain of salt just for that.

And I fail to see how his nationality is relevant to anything at all.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 09, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Sorry, but his primary motivation isn't disguised at all and has nothing to do with his GPA.  He's very clearly disgruntled about playing time.  He couches things and flip-flops a bit so as not to come across as too aggressive, but then he goes on to throw more gasoline on the fire with the side complaints.  Again, many athletic teams have poor reputations on campus, but imho he is obviously taking his parting shot and the talk about the team's reputation is part of bolstering his case.  And then he shares that when he does talk to the coach about leaving the coach was very helpful and apparently accessible.  And I'm not sure why this rubs me the wrong way, as I am far, far from a nationalist, but the guy is from New Zealand and was getting a great education at a great school.

I disagree that it is his primary motivation. He was clearly at Trinity (TX) to get an education. And, for the third time, I didn't say that the lack of playing time was not a motivation for him. I said that he didn't disguise it -- using other excuses for bailing when you're really just ticked off about not getting on the field/floor is typical disgruntled-jock behavior -- which adds to his credibility. And even with that, as I said, it's an opinion piece by a college kid; it needs to be taken with a grain of salt just for that.

And I fail to see how his nationality is relevant to anything at all.

I meant his primary motivation FOR WRITING THE PIECE.  He trashed the coach and the program, even with his waffling.  He said the coach was very helpful in the transfer process, and then after the coach was so helpful he STILL proceeded to do what he did.  He has every right to do it, but that doesn't make it smart or something to endorse.  At Trinity to get an education?  Sure, but the primary reason he was there?  Do you know that?  I would guess he considered at least a handful of schools and picked Trinity specifically because of the soccer team.  And I'm guessing he knew Trinity had a long history of being very competitive and not subverting program success for the personal development of every player.  And btw, if primary reason was the education at Trinity, why did he leave?  The idea that he had some credibility or integrity for owning (sort of) that he was disgruntled about playing time and playing time others got strikes me as pretty ludicrous, and then of course he goes on to lob even more serious charges against the program.  I would have been more impressed by a piece that investigated and exposed sexual misconduct without complaints about playing time.

As for the last thing, maybe it's not relevant.  But a thank you instead of a trash job would have been appreciated, I'm sure.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Maybe those of you assuming his motivations (Mr. Right and PaulNewman) should contact the student and ask him his motivations ... instead of just assuming he was being a jerk on his way out the door. I find that most students are far more nuanced than you seem to give them credit for ... ever.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
Yeah, going to side with Paul on this one. Some points:

1) Did he bring any of these concerns to the AD? If he feels so strongly that he is going to transfer (no small amount of work goes into that effort), and he felt compelled to publicly go after the coach and the program, surely he felt obligated to talk to school officials about the issues with the program, no? 

2) He states that he waited for quite a spell and wasn't seen, on one occasion. That's his example of negligence? Like many here, I played 4 years at a D3 school, serving as captain for 2 of those years. Not once did I request a one on one meeting, and neither of the coaches I played for did 1 on1 pre or post season briefings. It did not strike me as odd or insulting or negligent in any way. (Now, I did use this as a learning experience and when I began coaching many years later, I held these meetings with the club players I coached, but that's a different story.)

Now, if he'd emailed and received no response; or if he'd tried to set up multiple meetings to no avail... I'm listening. But he either did a poor job of fleshing this out, or he's being extremely sensitive on this point. Especially with a coach with such a long tenure, who is fairly set in his ways (assumption on my part), it's really not a red flag that he's not having 1 on 1

3) The most glaring thing to me is a complete lack of FACTS in this opinion piece. And before anyone starts, I have a background in communications and journalism. Opeds that lack anything other than opinions are pretty useless, quite frankly. The most obvious area he could've honed in on was the issue of over-recruitment. That's EASY to present... In fact, I'm sure any number of you all could go out and look at the size of the freshman class over the last 3-4 years to check on this. But as a casual reader, I'm looking at that accusation and saying "put that in context, give me some numbers, what are you SAYING?"

Lastly, throwing out the sexual misconduct issue is like rolling a grenade into the room and strolling away. I sure hope he didn't have any good friends on that team, because that insinuation and accusation is enough to ruin the reputation of a couple dozen people, not to mention the coaching staff. And, again, we are left with nothing more than innuendo on that front, as opposed to examples of the culture that he hints around.

That's irresponsible, plain and simple. 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
And let me add this, as folks are seemingly hung up on his motivations... whether this was a "hit piece" or not.

I'll take a different angle: What was his point? Was he trying to affect change? So that no other player has to experience what he experienced. If that was his goal, the lack of tangible facts and a coherent through-line make it extremely difficult for the AD or the school administration to actually do anything. And if that wasn't his motivation... Bringing issues outside of the locker room goes against the unwritten code of every sport, regardless of the level. You may disagree with that code, but what this kid did was off the charts in terms of the norms of athletics.

So, again, you guys look at it rather benignly. I'm not going to characterize it as a hit piece, but I sure do question his motivation. The coach helped you transfer. On your way out the door you talk about over recruitment and favoritism, which are EXTREMELY strong accusations against ANY coach or program. Throw in a nice sprinkling of sexual misconduct by the players and I really wonder what some of you think this guy was up to.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 09, 2020, 02:56:26 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 09, 2020, 11:17:11 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 08, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Sorry, but his primary motivation isn't disguised at all and has nothing to do with his GPA.  He's very clearly disgruntled about playing time.  He couches things and flip-flops a bit so as not to come across as too aggressive, but then he goes on to throw more gasoline on the fire with the side complaints.  Again, many athletic teams have poor reputations on campus, but imho he is obviously taking his parting shot and the talk about the team's reputation is part of bolstering his case.  And then he shares that when he does talk to the coach about leaving the coach was very helpful and apparently accessible.  And I'm not sure why this rubs me the wrong way, as I am far, far from a nationalist, but the guy is from New Zealand and was getting a great education at a great school.

I disagree that it is his primary motivation. He was clearly at Trinity (TX) to get an education. And, for the third time, I didn't say that the lack of playing time was not a motivation for him. I said that he didn't disguise it -- using other excuses for bailing when you're really just ticked off about not getting on the field/floor is typical disgruntled-jock behavior -- which adds to his credibility. And even with that, as I said, it's an opinion piece by a college kid; it needs to be taken with a grain of salt just for that.

And I fail to see how his nationality is relevant to anything at all.

I meant his primary motivation FOR WRITING THE PIECE.  He trashed the coach and the program, even with his waffling.  He said the coach was very helpful in the transfer process, and then after the coach was so helpful he STILL proceeded to do what he did.  He has every right to do it, but that doesn't make it smart or something to endorse.

I never said that his opinion piece was smart, nor did I endorse it. I simply agreed with jknezek's comments:

Quote from: jknezek on January 08, 2020, 08:54:08 AM
It's a signed opinion piece. I don't mind it but I also have a degree in print journalism and was an editor of my college paper way back when. The author took responsibility, pointed out the good and the bad, and said there are things to work on. If it was anonymous or a true slam piece I'd be more skeptical, but this is simply what it represents to be. One player who decided that the program was both good and bad and wanted to make his voice heard in the hopes that change could be affected based on his experience.

He doesn't extrapolate much to the rest of the team, he doesn't say anything egregious about the coaches other than a struggle to communicate, and his bones to pick are well established issues in many competitive and collegiate programs. Over recruiting is an issue and sexual misconduct claims on campus are significant anywhere you look but hardly a month goes by without an NCAA team somewhere being implicated.

The piece would have been more impactful and credible if he wasn't on his way out the door when writing it, but he probably wouldn't have been welcome back had he not been leaving anyway. I hope he raised these concerns privately first, but if they weren't addressed after being raised privately, a public acknowledgment isn't necessarily a bad route to take.

In other words, I applauded Lai for at least having the guts to put his name underneath his opinion in the school paper, and I agreed that his complaints are commonplace within collegiate programs (including, sadly, the matter of sexual misconduct), and I agreed as well with jknezek's sentiment that he hoped Lai raised his concerns privately with the coaching staff before going public with them. That is not me saying that it was a smart thing to do -- in fact, I even raised the point in my first post that Lai's public criticism of Coach McGinlay and his program could have repercussions for the kid if he is trying to transfer to another school with the intention of playing soccer there -- nor is it an endorsement of his opinion piece.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PMAt Trinity to get an education?  Sure, but the primary reason he was there?  Do you know that?

Not with 100% certitude, but, given the fact that he has repeatedly been honored for his outstanding classroom work at a school with a very good academic reputation, the evidence is pretty solid that his education is his priority. It seems pretty clear to me that he didn't come halfway around the world just to play soccer.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PMI would guess he considered at least a handful of schools and picked Trinity specifically because of the soccer team.  And I'm guessing he knew Trinity had a long history of being very competitive and not subverting program success for the personal development of every player.

I agree that it's likely that he knew that Trinity (TX) has a long history of being very competitive, if for no other reason than it would've been a primary part of the sales pitch of whoever recruited him, whether it was Coach McGinlay or an assistant. As to whether or not he was aware of the Tigers' "not subverting program success for the personal development of every player," that's pretty amorphous and somewhat subjective. He seems to indicate that the Tigers program was a lot more hardcore about putting winning above everything else than he had initially thought:

QuoteTrinity Men's Soccer is based on the foundational belief to win at all costs. While this is reasonable for a professional team, full of hardened individuals who are paid to compete, the effects are different for a college soccer team. In pursuit of this ultimate goal, the management of the program has proven themselves willing to disregard its players.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PMAnd btw, if primary reason was the education at Trinity, why did he leave?

Who knows? He never states why. Any response that I -- or you -- make in that regard would be sheer speculation.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PMThe idea that he had some credibility or integrity for owning (sort of) that he was disgruntled about playing time and playing time others got strikes me as pretty ludicrous, and then of course he goes on to lob even more serious charges against the program.  I would have been more impressed by a piece that investigated and exposed sexual misconduct without complaints about playing time.

Well, then, we will simply disagree about this. By no means do I endorse the piece, for a number of reasons (not the least of which is the fact that it is just one person's side of the story), but I will at least give him credit for being up-front about his reasons rather than trying to hide them, as so many student-athletes do in his situation.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 12:04:57 PMAs for the last thing, maybe it's not relevant.  But a thank you instead of a trash job would have been appreciated, I'm sure.

I still don't get where you're coming from with regard to the fact that he's a Kiwi. Are you implying that an international player owes a thank-you on his way out the door that an American player doesn't?
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 09, 2020, 04:07:41 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
Yeah, going to side with Paul on this one. Some points:

1) Did he bring any of these concerns to the AD? If he feels so strongly that he is going to transfer (no small amount of work goes into that effort), and he felt compelled to publicly go after the coach and the program, surely he felt obligated to talk to school officials about the issues with the program, no? 

That's just it -- we don't know that. This was raised at the very beginning of this discussion by jknezek. We're debating in a vacuum in terms of whether or not Lai raised these concerns privately.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
2) He states that he waited for quite a spell and wasn't seen, on one occasion. That's his example of negligence? Like many here, I played 4 years at a D3 school, serving as captain for 2 of those years. Not once did I request a one on one meeting, and neither of the coaches I played for did 1 on1 pre or post season briefings. It did not strike me as odd or insulting or negligent in any way. (Now, I did use this as a learning experience and when I began coaching many years later, I held these meetings with the club players I coached, but that's a different story.)

That's just anecdotal to your experience at Johns Hopkins two decades ago, though. It doesn't address the situation at Trinity (TX) in 2019. We don't know: a) what sort of expectations Lai was led to believe Coach McGinlay gave in terms of an open-door policy; b) if his expectations were accurate in that regard, i.e., if what he believed was or wasn't an accurate depiction of what he had been told; and c) if his expectations were different from reality; i.e., whether or not he had been told something that wasn't true.

Some coaches do one-on-ones. Some don't. I don't think that we can generalize in this regard.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PMNow, if he'd emailed and received no response; or if he'd tried to set up multiple meetings to no avail... I'm listening. But he either did a poor job of fleshing this out, or he's being extremely sensitive on this point. Especially with a coach with such a long tenure, who is fairly set in his ways (assumption on my part), it's really not a red flag that he's not having 1 on 1

I certainly agree that there is an obvious gap in his tale here. Modern college students practically live on their phones. It strikes me as obvious that he would've texted or e-mailed the coach ... and it's puzzling why he doesn't mention any attempt to communicate with the coach other than waiting for an hour outside of the coach's office. (Did he even make an appointment to meet with the coach? That's one of the first thoughts I had when I read his piece.)

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM3) The most glaring thing to me is a complete lack of FACTS in this opinion piece. And before anyone starts, I have a background in communications and journalism. Opeds that lack anything other than opinions are pretty useless, quite frankly. The most obvious area he could've honed in on was the issue of over-recruitment. That's EASY to present... In fact, I'm sure any number of you all could go out and look at the size of the freshman class over the last 3-4 years to check on this. But as a casual reader, I'm looking at that accusation and saying "put that in context, give me some numbers, what are you SAYING?"

I totally agree with you here.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PMLastly, throwing out the sexual misconduct issue is like rolling a grenade into the room and strolling away. I sure hope he didn't have any good friends on that team, because that insinuation and accusation is enough to ruin the reputation of a couple dozen people, not to mention the coaching staff. And, again, we are left with nothing more than innuendo on that front, as opposed to examples of the culture that he hints around.

That's irresponsible, plain and simple.

Well, there's more going on in his reference to sexual misconduct than a simple grenade lob on his part. The "insinuation and accusation" didn't start with Lai; it started with the Clothesline Project that he mentioned. The specifics are in this Trintonian article, which predates Lai's piece and which includes a mention that the men's soccer team had been called out on one of the t-shirts in the Clothesline Project. (https://www.trinitonian.com/clothesline-project-gives-voice-to-survivors/)

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
And let me add this, as folks are seemingly hung up on his motivations... whether this was a "hit piece" or not.

I'll take a different angle: What was his point? Was he trying to affect change? So that no other player has to experience what he experienced. If that was his goal, the lack of tangible facts and a coherent through-line make it extremely difficult for the AD or the school administration to actually do anything.

Well, if we take his post at face value, he spells out in his final paragraph that he was trying to affect change:

QuoteI do believe that Trinity men's soccer team has substantial issues that need to be addressed. That being said, this program has offered me the opportunity of a lifetime, and I will always be thankful to the coaching staff and my teammates for allowing be to be part of such an experience. In terms of next steps, I am hopeful that Trinity Men's Soccer will do a better job of establishing a better on-campus reputation. I also acknowledge the substantial time and effort it takes for a coaching staff to manage a men's varsity athletic team. It is no easy task and at no given moment will every team member be happy. However, in the case of Trinity Men's Soccer, more can be done.

You're right that it is too vague and non-specific to be actionable by the AD or anybody else.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PMAnd if that wasn't his motivation... Bringing issues outside of the locker room goes against the unwritten code of every sport, regardless of the level. You may disagree with that code, but what this kid did was off the charts in terms of the norms of athletics.

I suspect that we're all aware of the code. But, since Lai said that he that he has taken steps towards transferring, whether he does transfer or not my guess is that he's just burning a bridge behind him that he's already crossed. I doubt that, after having read the piece, any of us expects to see Josh Lai's name on the 2020 Trinity (TX) roster.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PMSo, again, you guys look at it rather benignly. I'm not going to characterize it as a hit piece, but I sure do question his motivation. The coach helped you transfer. On your way out the door you talk about over recruitment and favoritism, which are EXTREMELY strong accusations against ANY coach or program. Throw in a nice sprinkling of sexual misconduct by the players and I really wonder what some of you think this guy was up to.

I can't speak for anybody else, but my read is that this is an intelligent young man who has an assortment of complaints about the soccer program of which he was a part, some personal and some general. And he felt strongly enough about those complaints to publicly vent them upon his departure from the program -- and that, as people his age tend to do, he didn't fully think through what he was doing, or how he was doing it, or all of the possible ramifications of it when he submitted the piece to the Trintonian. But that doesn't mean that, therefore, there isn't any truth at all in what he was saying, or that we have some sort of clear window into his motivation. At best we can only examine it in the context of how other student-athletes have expressed similar complaints.

(I speak from experience when I say that 20-year-olds don't always exhibit clarity and/or sound judgment with regard to publicly expressing their opinion for the record. As the former editor of my college newspaper, I was overcome with dread the day that NPU put all of its back issues of the newspaper in an online archive. ;))
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Maybe those of you assuming his motivations (Mr. Right and PaulNewman) should contact the student and ask him his motivations ... instead of just assuming he was being a jerk on his way out the door. I find that most students are far more nuanced than you seem to give them credit for ... ever.

'd-mac,' maybe we can do a nuance challenge over the off-season.  And I'm not sure what your 'ever' means at the end there?  That I personally haven't appreciated nuance in student-athletes...like 'ever'?  Do you have more evidence for that? 

I wasn't trying to write a nuanced account of what he did, but I certainly could do so.  Was he naive?  Courageous?  Courageously naive?  Did he see a sexual harassment problem that he sat on for a year and half and then just added that on since he was writing something anyway?  Can we agree that he didn't describe anything that doesn't happen to kids on rosters of most competitive programs?  The piece actually was a little hard to follow....thanking everyone, including the soccer program, for a wonderful couple of years that were among the best in his life...and then very personally calling out the coach and the program on multiple levels.  BTW, it looks like he got plenty of chances to play and prove himself. Maybe he was on his way to having a break-out junior campaign.

I don't need to contact the student.  We have what he wrote, and based on that, it is clear that he was dissatisfied with his role on the soccer team, that he believes he deserved a larger role, that some of his teammates received unearned favoritism....and now, in hindsight, he has determined that the program is overly focused on winning, over-recruits, and contributes to a sexual harassment problem on campus.  Again, nothing really new or germane to Trinity alone.  And I'm not disputing what he presented in terms of accuracy, except to say his experiences and observations obviously are from his slant.  I know kids from my son's team from several years ago and kids from other teams who could have written something very, very similar.  How many kids and parents in high school allege the exact same sort of things in terms of why a kid isn't playing enough, or starting, or getting the All Conference awards driven by coach nominations?

I know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion, but all of us are free to express our thoughts without reflexively deferring to those who present as having the right, definitive and corrective answer every time.

BTW, I feel fairly safe in saying he didn't discuss his concerns with the coach other than whatever he said when they met about his request for transfer assistane.  He told us about waiting and leaving one time, and then the transfer meeting.  One would think he would have mentioned any other significant encounters in between, especially since he did basically say "well, when said I was transferring then he did [finally] help me."

And finally, did any of what was written jive with anything anybody else knows about McGinlay?  My impression from a great distance is that he is a highly respected guy who is viewed as having a great deal of class.  There certainly have been no threads here talking negatively about him the way some coaches have been discussed on the site.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 08:24:01 PM
A couple of more thoughts and I will have more than said my piece.

Mr.Right originally posted what he did with a link to a clip and interview with Coach McGinlay that highlighted him having and recovering from open heart surgery in the months leading up to the 2019 season and the celebration of his 500th win.  As I believe Mr. Sager said, we don't appear to have a slew of Trinity posters on the site (although there is one).  I wonder what the response would be here if the same article had been written by an OWU player (regarding Coach Martin), or Tufts, or Rochester, or W&L, or....North Park. 

I am totally aware of the power deferential between players, especially frosh and sophs, and coaches, and maybe especially legendary coaches.  I would guess Coach Martin has had players cut and players who quit because they were unhappy.  I bet there are even a couple of ex-Tufts players who don't think Shapiro walks on water.  The commitment to being on a D3 team is large and staying on a team for four years when you aren't playing for many won't make much sense.  And of course we have the schools which not only "over-recruit" but way, way over-roster.  College sports even at the D3 level may turn out to be different than what a lot of kids imagined.  I am not unsympathetic to players becoming disillusioned, having legit gripes, and/or transferring. 

That said, if you can write an article for your school newspaper, and naive or not, he knew it was a big deal, then one presumably can find a way to speak with his or her coach.  Any coach should be willing to meet with a player one to one to hear concerns, to review what the player can do to be more competitive on the team, etc.  Was McGinlay even in his office when the player waited outside?  Did McGinlay peer out and see the kid and just ignore him?  Any other attempts to make an actual appointment?  Or how about when leaving the practice pitch after a practice approaching the coach and asking if you can have 15 minutes with the coach at some point over the next week or two?  A player sees his coach every single day....not that hard to ask to have a meeting.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 10, 2020, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That is extremely unfair. I've never insinuated any such thing. I don't understand why you had to make this personal.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 08:24:01 PMAs I believe Mr. Sager said, we don't appear to have a slew of Trinity posters on the site (although there is one).  I wonder what the response would be here if the same article had been written by an OWU player (regarding Coach Martin), or Tufts, or Rochester, or W&L, or....North Park.

I've already given my response to that:

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 03:07:09 PMI'd be pretty ticked off if this came from an NPU player. But I'd start asking a lot of questions of people in or close to the soccer program to see how much credence the complainant had, rather than defensively dismiss it out of hand.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 10, 2020, 03:05:21 PM
Having gotten a quick sort-of mention as the Trinity(TX) supporter that occasionally chimes in here - have no insight into the situation, the young man making the accusations, or Coach McGinlay himself, just follow the program as a non-sports playing alumnus and send the athletic department a couple of bucks every now and then.  I did see the article when published last month.  It's obviously unfortunate all-around, and many of you have made the points - from multiple perspectives - better and more objectively than can I.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 10, 2020, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That is extremely unfair. I've never insinuated any such thing. I don't understand why you had to make this personal.

[/quote]

I was just gonna let this go, mainly because I'd rather not trigger yet another multi-quote, multi-counter (including allusions to what you feel you've already countered [and settled]....e.g. "....for the third time..."  And btw, just because you've said something for the third time that doesn't make you right or mean that another poster can't continue to challenge a point (and certainly you are no stranger to challenging points or presuming that the only reason someone could still disagree is because he hasn't understood you properly from the jump.

Fair?  Did you by chance apply fairness rather selectively?  Did you happen to read what I was responding to?  I wrote nothing to trigger that very personalized  (and grossly unfair) response. 

You also conveniently did not quote the rest of that sentence which read "...all of us are free to express our thoughts without reflexively deferring to those who present as having the right, definitive and corrective answer every time."

Forgive me if I have interpreted some of the posts of the self-anointed "experts" as intended to provide the definitive word on a topic such that opposing views should cease and desist, and that failing to do so will earn a certain ire and irritation with eventual suggestions of being a bad apple on the site.  You get irritated but then are never short of words in your repeatedly corrective replies.  Perhaps tedious for you, but no less tedious on the other side.

All that said, if I was unfair, I apologize.  Given a couple of similar scrapes with you in the past (last year), I have been very intent on being very fair to NPU and complimenting your work (and the other fellow's as well).
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 11, 2020, 09:35:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 10, 2020, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That is extremely unfair. I've never insinuated any such thing. I don't understand why you had to make this personal.



I was just gonna let this go,

... but of course you didn't. ::) :D

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMmainly because I'd rather not trigger yet another multi-quote, multi-counter (including allusions to what you feel you've already countered [and settled]....e.g. "....for the third time..."  And btw, just because you've said something for the third time that doesn't make you right or mean that another poster can't continue to challenge a point (and certainly you are no stranger to challenging points or presuming that the only reason someone could still disagree is because he hasn't understood you properly from the jump.

I didn't presume that you hadn't understood it properly. I figured that it was a matter of your simply missing it -- as you had missed my earlier bit about how I would've reacted if an NPU student-athlete had written that opinion piece.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMFair?  Did you by chance apply fairness rather selectively?

No, I didn't. I have posted on this site for over 20 years, and in all that time I have never presumed that anything that I have posted was supposed to settle a debate over a matter of opinion -- which is what this is. Never. There is no way that I can take your insinuation that I have a my-word-settles-it attitude about opinions as anything other than either an ad hominem retort dropped into the middle of a speculative debate over some kid's motives for writing a negative piece about his former team, or as a straight-out insult.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMDid you happen to read what I was responding to?  I wrote nothing to trigger that very personalized  (and grossly unfair) response.

Uh-uh. You don't get to take the high road here. You called me out, right out of the blue two days ago, not the other way around. This was a back-and-forth about various posters' respective interpretations of Josh Lai's letter to the Trinitonian. You crossed the line and made it personal with your remark about how once Dave McHugh and/or yours truly "chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion" -- as though he or I could (and do) bully people into submission on a chat board.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMYou also conveniently did not quote the rest of that sentence which read "...all of us are free to express our thoughts without reflexively deferring to those who present as having the right, definitive and corrective answer every time."

"Conveniently"? No. I didn't quote the rest of your sentence because: a) I agree with the substance of it in the abstract; b) I don't agree that I "present as having the right, definitive, and correct answer every time" in a matter that's open to interpretation and opinion; and c) it doesn't advance any sort of argument that needs to be refuted. It seemed to me to simply be you piling on to your accusation in the first part of the sentence.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMForgive me if I have interpreted some of the posts of the self-anointed "experts"

See? You're doing it again! I don't know why you keep doing it. I have to suspect that either you're so defensive that you feel the need to lash out at me like this whenever I disagree with you, or you're still harboring animosity from a previous disagreement. I would honestly like to be wrong about that, because I'm not looking to make an enemy out of you -- or out of anybody else, for that matter.

Look, I disagree with people on d3boards.com all the time. It doesn't mean anything personal; it doesn't mean that I'm trying to shout down their opinions or to shut them up altogether; and it certainly doesn't mean that I hold grudges. It's just me getting involved in a topic and indulging in some back-and-forth on it; no different, really, than what goes on in just about every sports talk show on radio or TV. Oh, and it doesn't mean that I refuse to admit when I'm wrong, either. There are plenty of times that I've done that as well.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMas intended to provide the definitive word on a topic such that opposing views should cease and desist, and that failing to do so will earn a certain ire and irritation with eventual suggestions of being a bad apple on the site.  You get irritated but then are never short of words in your repeatedly corrective replies.  Perhaps tedious for you, but no less tedious on the other side.

I only get irritated when a discussion is turned personal and/or political, or when I have to repeat the same point because it was missed previously ... or when Mr. Right threatens to punch me. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMAll that said, if I was unfair, I apologize.  Given a couple of similar scrapes with you in the past (last year), I have been very intent on being very fair to NPU and complimenting your work (and the other fellow's as well).

Well, that is appreciated on my part. Seriously and sincerely.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
Oh boy.  Exhibit A, B and C.

Maybe it's just a style thing, but YOU have some impact on how your posting is taken by others (just as I do) and how that style lends itself to a view that you contend is totally fallacious.  And by that I mean the parsing apart and responding point by point with an authoritarian, "know-it-all"  air along with suggestions that a poster either misunderstood or just missed your point.  And the selective parsing in such an atomistic manner can sometimes seriously distort that a poster is trying to communicate.  Even though you said you are sometimes wrong (see, I saw that), your first, second and third instinct is to presume the poster just simply missed or  misunderstood your point.  Sometimes you seem to presume that your point and especially the logic behind it are infallible.  And sometimes imo your inferences and logic do not follow, or certainly don't follow necessarily (like being a good student having some correlation, by definition, with credibility and a benign take on motivation).  It's actually possible to disagree with your reasoning even when one fully gets the reasoning....in other words, to disagree on the merits rather than just due to poster reading and comprehension errors.  And I would guess that I'm far from the only poster who has had similar reactions and responses to your posting over your 20+ years here.

I never claimed to take the high road, but here again, how do YOU get to decide what road I "get"?  The original hard foul (out of the blue) was offered by Mr. McHugh.  You were and are silent there, which seems telling.  That's where the line was crossed and things became personal.  I responded in kind.

And talk about speculating...  You decided that I'm either engaging in an ad hominen or just wanting to insult.  And you presume I'm either really defensive and/or "harboring animosity."  Wow.  That's what they call in the business 'wild analysis.' 
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 14, 2020, 11:08:47 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
Oh boy.  Exhibit A, B and C.

Maybe it's just a style thing, but YOU have some impact on how your posting is taken by others (just as I do) and how that style lends itself to a view that you contend is totally fallacious.  And by that I mean the parsing apart and responding point by point with an authoritarian, "know-it-all"  air along with suggestions that a poster either misunderstood or just missed your point.  And the selective parsing in such an atomistic manner can sometimes seriously distort that a poster is trying to communicate.  Even though you said you are sometimes wrong (see, I saw that), your first, second and third instinct is to presume the poster just simply missed or  misunderstood your point.  Sometimes you seem to presume that your point and especially the logic behind it are infallible.  And sometimes imo your inferences and logic do not follow, or certainly don't follow necessarily (like being a good student having some correlation, by definition, with credibility and a benign take on motivation).  It's actually possible to disagree with your reasoning even when one fully gets the reasoning....in other words, to disagree on the merits rather than just due to poster reading and comprehension errors.  And I would guess that I'm far from the only poster who has had similar reactions and responses to your posting over your 20+ years here.

Actually, you'd guess wrong in that regard. Of all the various places on d3boards.com where I post, you're the only one who gripes about my point-by-point posting methodology. (It didn't originate with me, BTW; it's called fisking, and in Internet terms it's been around for a long time.) I get into lots of debates on d3boards.com ... but you're the only one who wants to debate my style as well as my content.

I've never said that it wasn't possible to disagree with me on the merits of an issue. Heck, I've said as much in my previous posts here over the past few days. But most of this has more to do with your own issues rather than mine.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMI never claimed to take the high road, but here again, how do YOU get to decide what road I "get"?

It's easy. This was a completely above-board, non-personal discussion between the two of us until you put this in your response to Dave:

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That's where you made it personal. That's where the gauntlet was thrown down. QED.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMThe original hard foul (out of the blue) was offered by Mr. McHugh.  You were and are silent there, which seems telling.  That's where the line was crossed and things became personal.  I responded in kind.

By including me in your indictment? Does that seem fair? If you've got a beef with Dave, then direct it at Dave and nobody but Dave. Don't direct it at me as well, and then get all hot and bothered when I call you out for starting something.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMAnd talk about speculating...  You decided that I'm either engaging in an ad hominen or just wanting to insult.

You left me with very little choice in terms of drawing a conclusion when you attacked me without provocation.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMAnd you presume I'm either really defensive and/or "harboring animosity."  Wow.  That's what they call in the business 'wild analysis.'

Hardly. They're simply observations of how you've responded to me over the past two years. And this time you're the one who left off the tail end of the comment in question:

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 11, 2020, 09:35:19 PMI would honestly like to be wrong about that, because I'm not looking to make an enemy out of you -- or out of anybody else, for that matter.

I meant that, and still do.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on January 15, 2020, 08:31:58 AM
I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I'm getting tired of the PN/GS online skirmish here.  Any chance we can put this in our rearview mirrors and talk about soccer again?  Please?  ;D
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on January 15, 2020, 09:01:27 AM
Quote from: OldNed on January 15, 2020, 08:31:58 AM
I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I'm getting tired of the PN/GS online skirmish here.  Any chance we can put this in our rearview mirrors and talk about soccer again?  Please?  ;D

I was thinking this last night but then remembered it's the off season and there is almost nothing to talk about besides the odd coaching move or recruiting question. So we aren't really missing anything.

That being said, I do feel like the popcorn has gone a bit stale and they either need to whip out their... middle fingers?... and measure for the winner or do what my 8 year old twin boys do and play rock, paper, scissors for the last word while pretending to agree it's a draw.

It does appear all that is left is who gets the last word since the last couple posts had nothing substantive besides complaints about each other.
Title: Re: 2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on January 16, 2020, 01:57:45 PM
I'm trying to type out a non-snarky way to say that not everyone is a fan of fisking without making it personal.

So, nothing personal, GS, but I'm not a huge fan of that technique. I'd written out a longer post about why, but I don't want to make a big deal out of it... it's not a big deal.