FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:13:40 AM

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tigerFanAlso2

Jk

Congrats on a great season and I agree, W&L got hosed.

Hasa

9-1 is a great season, my fears about the at-large were realized.

odac has earned no respect nationally. maybe W&L can do something about that this year.

Another frustrating end to the hsc season. maybe next year. thanksgiving has officially been ruined AGAIN !!!!

jknezek

Things that tick me off --

Undefeated ODAC teams in the AQ era
Bwater 2001 -- home playoff game
Bwater 2002 -- bye week and home playoff games
H-SC 2009 -- home playoff game
W&L 2015 -- SHAFTED

Other home playoff games?
Bwater 2003 with loss
Bwater 2005 with loss
H-SC 2010 ODAC runner up, loss to W&L. W&L goes on road, H-SC stays home...
H-SC 2013 with 2 losses, lucks into a Maryville pairing

It's not like W&L is an unknown quantity, they have made the playoffs 4x in the last 10 seasons. They have had the 7 or 8 seed 3x, not unusual since they've had multiple losses although other teams escapes that fate this year (ONU, Salisbury) and even get to host (Franklin, Cortland), and they have gotten closer in difficult games each time. But now they are undefeated and they still can't crack a home game while other teams get handed first round gifts (looking at you Albright, Cortland, and Franklin, what a joke).

I know people are really excited about this bracket and the way it sets up different pairings in the second round, but I really think they screwed W&L and gifted some name teams (and even some non-name teams?? Albright with a loss for crap's sake gets Norwich 6-4?) first round games this year. These were preventable gifts if you make a more equitable bracket, even accounting for 500 miles.

HSCTiger fan

I fully expected WL to be at home. It makes no sense to me that they aren't. I was curious if the NCAA uses average home attendance?  HSC has been fortunate with home games but they have also ranked very high nationally in attendance.
Hampden Sydney College
ODAC Champions 77, 82, 83, 87, 07, 09, 11, 13, 14
NCAA Playoffs - 77, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, 14
The "Game" 60 wins and counting...
11/18/2018 Wally referred to me as Chief and admitted "I don't know about that!"

hasanova

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 16, 2015, 12:26:07 AM
Quote from: hasanova on November 15, 2015, 07:04:14 PM
d3football.com says Whitworth and Guilford had nearly identical resumes and I agree, but Whitworth lost to Linfield 52-10 and Guilford lost their only game 20-17 in the rain and on the road when our star QB was knocked out with a possible concussion early in the second quarter and the W&L Generals hit a school-record 51-yard FG.  I understand LC is RR #2 and W&L is RR #5, but this is a classic case of a team that got robbed.

I'd say it's pretty clear Linfield is better than Whitworth.  I don't think that's so obvious in Guilford's case with W&L.  I also don't understand how at-large teams such as ONU got in with 2 losses and SJF got in with three!  They say life isn't fair and here's your proof.  Boo NCAA ... you blew it!  Linfield and Whitworth are paired again because of the NCAA's inane travel rules. No offense meant to Whitworth, but I'd like to see Linfield lay another beatdown on the Pirates just to prove a team that gets trounced by 42 is probably not going to fare very well in a rematch.

C'est la vie.   On to hoops for me.

Yeah, but man, Guilford didn't play anyone nearly on the level of Linfield. Congrats on not losing by 42 but good teams lose to Linfield and St. Thomas and Mount Union and UW-Firstplaceteamnamehere by 42 points. That's what the rest of D-III is like -- if you just play in the ODAC/USAC pond, you might get away with some things that you don't when playing a top seed type.
I do understand that, Pat.  Shame on GC for not playing a tougher schedule.  I wish it wasn't about the economics of travel, but I really think it is for now. 

jknezek

Quote from: HSCTiger fan on November 16, 2015, 09:33:01 AM
I fully expected WL to be at home. It makes no sense to me that they aren't. I was curious if the NCAA uses average home attendance?  HSC has been fortunate with home games but they have also ranked very high nationally in attendance.

Nope. Nothing to do with the criteria. The committee simply looked at W&L, looked at teams with 500 miles and decided teams with losses deserved home games more.

hasanova

Quote from: HSCTiger fan on November 15, 2015, 11:09:11 PM
I didn't mean to imply you're happy with anyone getting injured. I was talking about the outcome of the game.  I can see how you may have interrupted it that way.  I'm sorry I got you all fired up. I like what you have to say 99% of the time and seldom point out the small percentage I do not. GC got to end their season on a 6 game win streak.  Only 1 team in the playoffs will get to claim that.  They have a lot to be proud of.
We're cool.  Thanks.

HSCTiger fan

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 16, 2015, 12:26:07 AM
Quote from: hasanova on November 15, 2015, 07:04:14 PM
d3football.com says Whitworth and Guilford had nearly identical resumes and I agree, but Whitworth lost to Linfield 52-10 and Guilford lost their only game 20-17 in the rain and on the road when our star QB was knocked out with a possible concussion early in the second quarter and the W&L Generals hit a school-record 51-yard FG.  I understand LC is RR #2 and W&L is RR #5, but this is a classic case of a team that got robbed.

I'd say it's pretty clear Linfield is better than Whitworth.  I don't think that's so obvious in Guilford's case with W&L.  I also don't understand how at-large teams such as ONU got in with 2 losses and SJF got in with three!  They say life isn't fair and here's your proof.  Boo NCAA ... you blew it!  Linfield and Whitworth are paired again because of the NCAA's inane travel rules. No offense meant to Whitworth, but I'd like to see Linfield lay another beatdown on the Pirates just to prove a team that gets trounced by 42 is probably not going to fare very well in a rematch.

C'est la vie.   On to hoops for me.

Yeah, but man, Guilford didn't play anyone nearly on the level of Linfield. Congrats on not losing by 42 but good teams lose to Linfield and St. Thomas and Mount Union and UW-Firstplaceteamnamehere by 42 points. That's what the rest of D-III is like -- if you just play in the ODAC/USAC pond, you might get away with some things that you don't when playing a top seed type.

Linfeild, St Thomas, MU, UW is not a representation of "what the rest of D-III is like". If anything those teams are the direct opposite of what the rest of D-III is like.
Hampden Sydney College
ODAC Champions 77, 82, 83, 87, 07, 09, 11, 13, 14
NCAA Playoffs - 77, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, 14
The "Game" 60 wins and counting...
11/18/2018 Wally referred to me as Chief and admitted "I don't know about that!"

pg04

#19267
Quote from: jknezek on November 16, 2015, 09:20:23 AM

It's not like W&L is an unknown quantity, they have made the playoffs 4x in the last 10 seasons. They have had the 7 or 8 seed 3x, not unusual since they've had multiple losses although other teams escapes that fate this year (ONU, Salisbury) and even get to host (Franklin, Cortland), and they have gotten closer in difficult games each time. But now they are undefeated and they still can't crack a home game while other teams get handed first round gifts (looking at you Albright, Cortland, and Franklin, what a joke).

I know people are really excited about this bracket and the way it sets up different pairings in the second round, but I really think they screwed W&L and gifted some name teams (and even some non-name teams?? Albright with a loss for crap's sake gets Norwich 6-4?) first round games this year. These were preventable gifts if you make a more equitable bracket, even accounting for 500 miles.

I don't think there are "jokes" or any gifts. Let's look at things objectively. Obviously, the committees do not respect the body of work in the ODAC. And winning a conference undefeated does not equal having a home game. Look at Western New England. They are 10-0 but have an even tougher challenge traveling to Johns Hopkins.

The signs that GC did not get in, and W&L is not at home should signal that the teams need to do better in scheduling to make up for the poor league. W&L's non-conference was horrendous, the first two teams being a combined 3-17, followed by the Apprentice school. Not going to shoot off any fireworks.

Now let's look at two of the schools you mention:

Cortland: Won the E8. Given the strength of the conference, the winner will almost always get a round 1 home game. But beyond that, they played an OAC team and won. And they beat Framingham State, a team that is regionally ranked AND won their conference (also, by the way, forced to be playing on the road due to their poor conference - against Wesley!!)

Albright; Their loss is to a 2-loss Del Val team (who was 10th in the regional rankings last week and probably stayed ranked) and the MAC gets, again, more credit than the ODAC. But even beyond that, they beat Salisbury, presumably regionally ranked and a conference champion.

I think W&L was close to a home game, but if you look at the last released regional rankings, TMC was ahead of them and that didn't change with this week's results. 

ExTartanPlayer

#19268
Quote from: jknezek on November 16, 2015, 09:20:23 AM
I know people are really excited about this bracket and the way it sets up different pairings in the second round, but I really think they screwed W&L and gifted some name teams (and even some non-name teams?? Albright with a loss for crap's sake gets Norwich 6-4?) first round games this year. These were preventable gifts if you make a more equitable bracket, even accounting for 500 miles.

I think you're well within your rights to feel that W&L got shafted.

The Albright/Norwich pairing is a weird one.  I think Albright has a decent case to host - you can make an argument that they should have been #1 in the final East regional rankings, although they were probably #2 behind Wesley - but it is kind of weird that they got the Norwich gift (and then the Mount hammer next).  I assume that the committee had decided Mount was going to be the hub of an East-centric bracket and was just trying to piece together who played who in that bracket.  What's a little weird there is that you can infer that Wesley and Johns Hopkins are the (unofficial) 2 and 3 seeds in that quadrant with Albright the (unofficial) 4 seed - so why didn't they send Norwich to Wesley or Hopkins (Google Maps says both are just inside the 500-mile range from Norwich) and send either Framingham State or Western New England to Albrighht?  I don't know.  Presumably they don't have Albright seeded higher than Wesley, that makes little sense because Albright will play Mount in round 2.

Anyways - in a vacuum, I think Albright hosting is OK with me.  The geography will never allow teams 1-through-16 to guarantee themselves a home game. 

Where I think you do have a right to be kind of salty is actually that W&L is traveling to Thomas More.  I have nothing against TMC - they're in my team's league - but by the criteria W&L's profile is probably a little better (slightly better SOS and 1 RR win vs. 0 RR wins...unless St. John Fisher made it into the final East rankings, which is possible).  Could easily argue that this should be TMC going to W&L.
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

jknezek

All right. Trying to get over my fit of pique. W&L has an 11th game, and that is something to celebrate, regardless of how they got jobbed out of it being in Lexington.

So... TMC has been an offensive juggernaut this season. They haven't put less than 36 points on the board all season. W&L has only allowed 36 points once, that was opening week when Averett got some late points and hit exactly that number, and only one other game have the Generals allowed over 30, a late score for Catholic. So when the first team defense has been on the field, W&L has given yards but not points. They will have to keep that trend going against TMC to have a shot in this game which will be difficult as TMC ranks 4th in Red Zone offense and 5th in scoring offense.

Offensively both teams are good. TMC ranks 7th in total offense, W&L 10th. TMC ranks about 50th against the rush. W&L is the top ranked rushing team in DIII by almost 100 yards per game on average. I think W&L will need to slow this game down a bit. Neither team has been a TOP hog, with W&L ranking about 100th and TMC ranking about 170th in DIII, so both rely more on big plays and quick strikes to generate large numbers of points. W&L will need to use their offense to grind out drives and shorten the game, keeping TMC off the field and making them work a little harder for the points they will score.

If this game turns into a complete track meet, I don't like the General's chances. But if W&L can hold TMC around 35-40 points, I think the offense can be efficient enough to give the Generals a chance. As usual, W&L will need between 300 and 400 rushing yards and 50 to 150 passing yards. If they can get in the mid range of those numbers I'll be thrilled. With TMC only allowing about 300 yards per game, W&L is going to have to do something the Saints aren't capable of handling to get those numbers up.

I'll skip the obvious about penalties and turnovers, but W&L can't afford them. An option offense can't make up the gap or get behind the chains. Get out early and grind it out Generals. Make them chase. It'll be a long afternoon if W&L falls behind early.

A bit concerned Charlie Nelson hasn't played two weeks in a row. He picked up a knock late against E&H, frankly he shouldn't have been in the game at that point, so I hope he can come back for this game. Though I will say Matt Sgro has been a more than capable back up, I'd like to see Charlie running the game plan to its full potential.

I do wonder about next year. Charlie will be a senior, Matt a junior. Matt brings something a little different to the table and I could see Coach Abel trying to find a way to have them both on the field at the same time.

pg04

That's the spirit. Most teams (including my own) don't even get close to making it into the tournament, so to make it, no matter what, is something. And if you can get that win on the road, which is very possible, then who knows what could happen right?

ExTartanPlayer

Quote from: jknezek on November 16, 2015, 10:42:13 AM
If this game turns into a complete track meet, I don't like the General's chances. But if W&L can hold TMC around 35-40 points

Good post.  I just have to laugh at how a game where you hold the opposition to around 35-40 points is not a track meet, lol.  Man, times have changed.  40 points used to be a good offense's two-game output!  Now it passes for a merely average day.
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

jknezek

Quote from: pg04 on November 16, 2015, 10:21:58 AM

I don't think there are "jokes" or any gifts. Let's look at things objectively. Obviously, the committees do not respect the body of work in the ODAC. And winning a conference undefeated does not equal having a home game. Look at Western New England. They are 10-0 but have an even tougher challenge traveling to Johns Hopkins.

I agree. WNE got an even harder seed. I don't think 10-0 guarantees you a home game W&L had a win over an RRO, SOS of 142, and is the top ranked rushing offense in DIII (not criteria, but indicative of some kind of ability). WNE has no RROs, and a 222 SOS. By the criteria they are significantly worse off than W&L.

Quote from: pg04 on November 16, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
The signs that GC did not get in, and W&L is not at home should signal that the teams need to do better in scheduling to make up for the poor league. W&L's non-conference was horrendous, the first two teams being a combined 3-17, followed by the Apprentice school. Not going to shoot off any fireworks.
Agreed. I've harped on the ODAC, and especially W&L and Guilford's OOCs, all season. I do think Guilford has a bit of an excuse with two OOC rivalry games and budget constraints. W&L has only the one OOC rivalry game (Sewanee going on 60 years pretty much) and nothing but self-set budget restraints. There is little excuse for playing both Averett and Apprentice. Uggh.

Quote from: pg04 on November 16, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
Cortland: Won the E8. Given the strength of the conference, the winner will almost always get a round 1 home game. But beyond that, they played an OAC team and won. And they beat Framingham State, a team that is regionally ranked AND won their conference (also, by the way, forced to be playing on the road due to their poor conference - against Wesley!!)
This is part of what ticks me off. In the years where the ODAC beats the crap out of each other, which is more often than not, the champion is "weak" and set a horrible seed. In years where the E8 beats the crap out of each other it's because the whole conference is a powerhouse and the champion deserves a home game. BS. The E8 this year was down. Competitive like the ODAC, but down. SJF getting destroyed by TMC is pretty good indication of that league since they stormed back to have a shot at the end. The E8 champ should be on the road. They were 1-0 RRO? Great, so was W&L. Their RRO won the conference? The only reason W&L's didn't was because W&L was in the way. That argument is as circular as one we find on other boards...

Quote from: pg04 on November 16, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
Albright; Their loss is to a 2-loss Del Val team (who was 10th in the regional rankings last week and probably stayed ranked) and the MAC gets, again, more credit than the ODAC. But even beyond that, they beat Salisbury, presumably regionally ranked and a conference champion.
And why should the MAC get more credit this year? Only reason Del Val stayed in the rankings was because the rest of the East couldn't win football games when it counted. Del Val lost to f'ing Wilkes for crying out loud. No one in other regions takes those hideous losses and stays in the rankings this year, but because the East was... ugly... Del Val probably stayed in. Lucky Albright. Salisbury has a similar problem, though I give them credit for beating Wesley. Still, the South solved their ETBU problem. Yes they beat HSU but they had a hideous loss to McMurry. Presumably they didn't stay in the rankings (Hendrix probably took their spot) after UMHB finished them. The East again craps the bed and a team that got buried by CNU stays in the rankings with one good win. Congratulations.

Quote from: pg04 on November 16, 2015, 10:21:58 AM
I think W&L was close to a home game, but if you look at the last released regional rankings, TMC was ahead of them and that didn't change with this week's results.
I have no problem with TMC having a home game, though by the criteria they are essentially the same resume as W&L. If SJF made it through the bed crapper known as the East Region Rankings they are 1-0, like W&L. They had a weaker SOS. Same winning percentage, though one more pure DIII game. No head to head or common opponents. No previous year playoff experience. These two teams have similar resumes, though arguably W&L's is mildly better though probably doesn't pass an eye test.

No I have no problem with TMC having a home game. I have a problem with W&L travelling there when Franklin, Cortland, and Albright with multiple losses are hosting games. Oh... their conference was a meat grinder. Yeah, the ODAC has heard that before and been shafted. Somehow these programs get gifts instead... Norwich, 6-4 at Albright? Ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous.

pg04

I think that you make good points, was just trying to look at it through their eyes, as in the end I think W&L was probably as close as you could get to getting a home game. One of these small dominoes maybe was the difference. I know it sucks to not play at home when you think you deserve it.

As for the pairing of Norwich with Albright, I thought that was crap as well. I think Norwich should have been sent to Wesley or Johns Hopkins, both would have been within range. Albright should have gotten a team like Western New England or Framingham. I would have matched Cortland and St. Lawrence as well. But St. Lawrence got shafted, in my mind, to be sent directly to Mount Union in the first round.

pg04

Maybe shafted is the wrong term for St. Lawrence, but I didn't think they deserved that fate immediately. I thought the winner of Cortland/St. Lawrence would get sent there (in my mind's bracket).