MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

Started by Pat Coleman, February 24, 2005, 09:17:07 PM

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tomt4525

Hunter Plamann is transferring to Oshkosh...good work per usual Shinetime.

tomt4525

#21346
UWSP has been so underwhelming on the recruiting trail compared to their counterparts, it's really hard to continue to have optimism that they can compete in the WIAC.

Greek Tragedy

Oh well, I always thought it was their M.O. to come to the party late and get those "late" recruits.
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Titan Q


Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: tomt4525 on June 04, 2020, 08:30:59 PM
UWSP has been so underwhelming on the recruiting trail compared to their counterparts, it's really hard to continue to have optimism that they can compete in the WIAC.

I know I have mentioned this in the past, but the restrictions they have on recruiting I think are still in place ... and Semling still under a "show of cause" means the school has to double- and triple-check so many things he is doing that it has a natural slow down and such to it (thus why so many schools won't hold on to a coach who is under a "show of cause" other than the PR side of things).

Remember, there were parts of the NCAA report that pointed to recruiting violations - more than just illegal practices.

UWSP also lost a heck of a recruiter in Dernbach. I don't think UWSP's struggles should be that surprising, really.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

tomt4525

#21350
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 05, 2020, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: tomt4525 on June 04, 2020, 08:30:59 PM
UWSP has been so underwhelming on the recruiting trail compared to their counterparts, it's really hard to continue to have optimism that they can compete in the WIAC.

I know I have mentioned this in the past, but the restrictions they have on recruiting I think are still in place ... and Semling still under a "show of cause" means the school has to double- and triple-check so many things he is doing that it has a natural slow down and such to it (thus why so many schools won't hold on to a coach who is under a "show of cause" other than the PR side of things).

Remember, there were parts of the NCAA report that pointed to recruiting violations - more than just illegal practices.

UWSP also lost a heck of a recruiter in Dernbach. I don't think UWSP's struggles should be that surprising, really.

I do understand they have some recruiting limitations due to the investigation, I read the report extensively.  I don't really see the recruiting restrictions that were put on UWSP hindering any D3 school much.  The biggest restriction as far as recruiting goes was there was no official visits allowed for 4 years I believe, which is still ongoing.  What constitutes an official visit for a D3 school?  Paying for a meal??  If there is more to a D3 official visit that I'm aware of, then yes that would hurt the recruiting efforts for UWSP.

Dernbach was a huge loss, as seen by what he's been doing at La Crosse.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish UWSP would have given the head job to Dernbach after Semling's suspension was done.  Dernbach had that year's team playing much better than Semling ever did.

Last year, I can remember back to a Pointer Hoops Radio Show where Semling was talking about their recruiting efforts.  And, per usual, he was very excited about their prospective players they were recruiting and talked about how many players they wanted to bring in and talked specifically about Coach Hockett as a recruiter.  Semling said that they wanted to bring in 5-6 of the best freshman they could get along with a couple transfers to help balance out the class.  He also said, "Hockett is the best recruiter he has ever had on staff," which obviously included Dernbach who has arguably been the best recuiter in the WIAC the past few years.  That year they brought in 2 guys and 0 transfers.

As far as UWSP's recruiting demise not really being a surprise, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with that statement.  The past few years they had the unknown of what punishment was going to be coming down from the investigation, so very slow recruiting is understandable for those years.  This year was their first year with a full season where there was no black cloud of the what if's on them.  Not to mention, they lose 5 of their top 6 guys so there is an open competition for playing time..as well as the tradition of 4 National Titles, one of the best fan bases in the country and also one of the best D3 venues to play basketball in.  So, I expected an uptick this season.  It didn't happen, and I've been more than unimpressed with Semling's "best recruiting assistant ever", Coach Hockett, because of that.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 15, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
Basically there can be nothing paid for if it is not an official visit. So getting rid of official visits means the student-athlete is on their own in terms of expenses across the board. There also may be a restriction on whether they can spend the night and such, but I'd have to go back to my notes (buried in a box after this off-season's massive water problems at home) or look it all up again.

From a previous time you asked, Tom.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

--- I removed the part Pat already quoted for me. ---

Nothing against Semling, but anything he's saying on radio can probably be taken with a grain of salt. He's going to try and tout his program, his recruiting, and his staff. He could be glazing over the truths in hopes of success.

Per the "no surprise," they were starting to show signs of struggles even with Dernbach there due to the ongoing investigation. That isn't because of Dernbach or Semling weren't trying hard, but restrictions put in by the school were already in place and the simple fact the investigation was ongoing I am told by those who know was already causing an impact - recruits were not as turned on to visit or attend. I am of course not there, but that is from people I trust talking to me about the dynamics in general.

As far as there being no black cloud last season, do you think the fact the investigation is now over suddenly the black cloud is removed? This is a bit of an extreme, b ut the SMU debacle has lasted with them for a very long time. UWSP is still under that cloud as long as Semling is still under his Show of Cause, the restrictions and punishments are still in place, and the school still is mandated to talk about it (part of the punishment; they have to reveal this information). Add in the simple fact that every coach recruiting against them would be CRAZY not to be mentioning the problems, investigation, and much more when recruiting against UWSP - even well after things are back to "normal."

You can have all the "bells and whistles" (though, I'd argue many in the WIAC plus others have the same crowd atmosphere, championship traditions, etc.), but that doesn't mean getting in trouble as UWSP has done (especially a second time for basically the same thing) isn't going to make those bells and whistles less significant.

I think this is going to take several years to come out from under, unfortunately. UWSP has been a proud program, but they are taking a licking from this. Maybe they figure it out soon and this is a moot point, but time will tell.

Side note: the current financial and academic climate has made things challenging on everyone. That is going to further hamper UWSP I suspect as every school will take a bit of a hit as students and their families reevaluate a LOT in the coming months and years.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

tomt4525

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 05, 2020, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 15, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
Basically there can be nothing paid for if it is not an official visit. So getting rid of official visits means the student-athlete is on their own in terms of expenses across the board. There also may be a restriction on whether they can spend the night and such, but I'd have to go back to my notes (buried in a box after this off-season's massive water problems at home) or look it all up again.

From a previous time you asked, Tom.

That didn't really answer the question...which is why I asked again....for official visits only can they pay for a hotel and stay overnight??  Can they pay for meals??  Can they pay for nothing for the official and unofficial visits??

If UWSP isn't able to have recruits stay overnight on visits, I could see that being a big deterrent on landing commitments from kids who have a lot of other options and taking overnight visits at those schools.  If they are just missing out on a free meal, I don't see that as a big deal.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

#21354
Quote from: tomt4525 on June 05, 2020, 05:49:22 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 05, 2020, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 15, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
Basically there can be nothing paid for if it is not an official visit. So getting rid of official visits means the student-athlete is on their own in terms of expenses across the board. There also may be a restriction on whether they can spend the night and such, but I'd have to go back to my notes (buried in a box after this off-season's massive water problems at home) or look it all up again.

From a previous time you asked, Tom.

That didn't really answer the question...which is why I asked again....for official visits only can they pay for a hotel and stay overnight??  Can they pay for meals??  Can they pay for nothing for the official and unofficial visits??

If UWSP isn't able to have recruits stay overnight on visits, I could see that being a big deterrent on landing commitments from kids who have a lot of other options and taking overnight visits at those schools.  If they are just missing out on a free meal, I don't see that as a big deal.

Other things not allowed based on there being no official visits:

- no mileage for the travel to and from the campus
- no hotel rooms for parents for any overnight (if relevant)
- no meals for that overnight stay
- and as I understand it, no student could spend the night anyway

Edit: recruit could not spend the night on campus unless the school is doing that for regular applicants. Athletics/Team cannot pay for the visit.

Another key in all of this: the team cannot arrange the visit by any recruit whether for an overnight or a simple stay. Again, the recruit can tell the team and coaches they are coming, but there can't be any arrangement and plan making about their visit from the team or athletic's perspective (i.e. seeing particular parts of campus, meeting with players officially, seeing professors, etc.). It is more, "I'm coming to visit on Monday." (End edit)

And I'll go out on a limb on this one: one of the big hooks Semling and staff seemed to be using was the illegal practices to evaluate and get recruits playing with the team. That has been cracked down on obviously. Maybe that was a significant part of the system and made an important impact for finding the talent and getting them on board and into the school. That being gone, maybe the biggest advantage is no longer helping UWSP win the recruiting wars. (Complete speculation.)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

UWBadgers

One point that hasn't been mentioned is that Stevens Point was very successful in grabbing some of the top kids from the Oshkosh and Fox Valley areas in the past. Now that Oshkosh has greatly improved over the past few years, Stevens Point can no longer take the top few division 3 players in that area.

I would be interested in seeing a map of where the top 50 or so players in the state are coming from. My hunch is that there aren't nearly as many within an hour radius of Stevens Point as there has been in the state. Especially now that Oshkosh controls the east.

tomt4525

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 05, 2020, 05:54:39 PM
Quote from: tomt4525 on June 05, 2020, 05:49:22 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 05, 2020, 05:38:13 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 15, 2020, 12:28:39 PM
Basically there can be nothing paid for if it is not an official visit. So getting rid of official visits means the student-athlete is on their own in terms of expenses across the board. There also may be a restriction on whether they can spend the night and such, but I'd have to go back to my notes (buried in a box after this off-season's massive water problems at home) or look it all up again.

From a previous time you asked, Tom.

That didn't really answer the question...which is why I asked again....for official visits only can they pay for a hotel and stay overnight??  Can they pay for meals??  Can they pay for nothing for the official and unofficial visits??

If UWSP isn't able to have recruits stay overnight on visits, I could see that being a big deterrent on landing commitments from kids who have a lot of other options and taking overnight visits at those schools.  If they are just missing out on a free meal, I don't see that as a big deal.

Other things not allowed based on there being no official visits:

- no mileage for the travel to and from the campus
- no hotel rooms for parents for any overnight (if relevant)
- no meals for that overnight stay
- and as I understand it, no student could spend the night anyway

Edit: recruit could not spend the night on campus unless the school is doing that for regular applicants. Athletics/Team cannot pay for the visit.

Another key in all of this: the team cannot arrange the visit by any recruit whether for an overnight or a simple stay. Again, the recruit can tell the team and coaches they are coming, but there can't be any arrangement and plan making about their visit from the team or athletic's perspective (i.e. seeing particular parts of campus, meeting with players officially, seeing professors, etc.). It is more, "I'm coming to visit on Monday." (End edit)

And I'll go out on a limb on this one: one of the big hooks Semling and staff seemed to be using was the illegal practices to evaluate and get recruits playing with the team. That has been cracked down on obviously. Maybe that was a significant part of the system and made an important impact for finding the talent and getting them on board and into the school. That being gone, maybe the biggest advantage is no longer helping UWSP win the recruiting wars. (Complete speculation.)

With this information, I can definitely see why UWSP's recruiting has been dreadful.  Not being able to organize the visit would really take away from that experience and I can see why UWSP loses most of these recruiting battles.  I don't see that changing unfortunately until UWSP is allowed to have official visits again in a few years.  Even then, will they have fallen even farther behind the top of the conference to be able to consistently win some of these battles for the top in state kids?

As far as playing pickup with current members of the team as a recruiting strategy...I'm not sure on exact rules with that but I have talked with numerous prospective recruits in the past 5 years and every school they visit, they have played pickup with current players.  You can call it a "practice" if you'd like, but it's an open gym with current players and the recruits jumping in and playing.  That's what was happening and quite frankly, happens at all these midwestern schools if not the country.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


The open gym stuff is a little different.  The real value for a coach in a closed practice like the ones at UWSP (do we still have to say alleged?) is that, even if the coaches are passive observers, you can have the players introduce a defense or some offensive sets and see how the recruits pick it up and fit in.  Talent scouting isn't too difficult from afar, but some of those other dynamics you just can't know until everyone's on the court.

I doubt that's as much an issue, though, as the visits.  You're essentially relying on the admissions dept to set everything up. As I understand it, MBB can't even send over a list of names for admissions to flag as basketball recruits.  Coaches can tell the players to tell admissions, but there's absolutely zero catering of the visit to basketball (although I think the players can still request meetings with the coach like any other student might - Dave might have to clarify that one, for me).

In a super competitive environment like the WIAC, that's a huge, huge disadvantage.

Plus you can't even rely on maybe some of the grey area stuff another school could get away with, because all the oversight with the show-cause has to be documented.  A team captain could play some open gym games with a recruit and give the coach an evaluation on the sly most places - that's not technically supposed to happen, but we all know it does - that kind of thing is doubly (triply) hard for UWSP during the probation.

Plus, as charming a guy as Bob is, he's competing with a lot of younger coaches now, and that really does make a difference in recruiting. That relatability factor is huge.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
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Titan Q

Quote from: UWBadgers on June 05, 2020, 06:58:57 PM
One point that hasn't been mentioned is that Stevens Point was very successful in grabbing some of the top kids from the Oshkosh and Fox Valley areas in the past. Now that Oshkosh has greatly improved over the past few years, Stevens Point can no longer take the top few division 3 players in that area.
Agree.  Oshkosh's emergence as a national power, and a force on the recruiting trail, has to be a big factor.

tomt4525

Madison West G/F, Dayne Armwald, has committed to Whitewater.