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D3soccer.com => Men's soccer => Topic started by: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM

Title: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
Here's my best guess at 2017 picks for each D3 conference.  Plus my Top 5 overall preseason picks.  Let's get the conversation started.

Allegheny Mountain Collegiate Conference – PENN STATE-BEHREND
American Southwest Conf -  TEXAS-DALLAS
Capital Athletic Conf – MARY WASHINGTON
Centennial Conf – FRANKLIN & MARSHALL
City Univ of NY Athletic Conf – STATEN ISLAND
College Conf of Illinois & Wisconsin – CARTHAGE
Colonial States Athletic Conf – IMMACULATA
Commonwealth Coast Conf – GORDON
Empire 8 Conf – HOUGHTON
Great Northeast Athletic Conf – ST. JOSEPH'S (MAINE)
Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conf – TRANSYLVANIA
Iowa Intercollegiate Athletic Conf – LORAS
Landmark Conf – SCRANTON
Liberty League – VASSAR
Little East Conf – MASS-BOSTON
Massachusetts State Collegiate Athletic Conf – WORCESTER STATE
Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Assoc – CALVIN
Middle Atlantic Conf Commonwealth – MESSIAH
Middle Atlantic Conf Freedom – EASTERN
Midwest Conf – ST NORBERT
Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conf – ST THOMAS
New England Women's & Men's Athletic Conf – BABSON
New England Collegiate Conf - NEWBURY
New England Small College Athletic Conf – AMHERST
New Jersey Athletic Conf – ROWAN
North Atlantic Conf – THOMAS
North Coast Athletic Conf – KENYON
North Eastern Athletic Conf – MORRISVILLE STATE
Northern Athletic Collegiate Conf – BENEDICTINE
Northwest Conf – WHITWORTH
Ohio Athletic Conf – OHIO NORTHERN
Old Dominion Athletic Conf – LYNCHBERG
President's Athletic Conf – GROVE CITY
Skyline Conf – MOUNT SAINT MARY
Southern Athletic Conf – OGLETHORPE
Southern Cal Inter Athletic Conf – REDLANDS
Southern Collegiate Athletic Conf – TRINITY (TEXAS)
St Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conf – WESTMINSTER (MO)
State Univ of NY Athletic Conf – SUNY CORTLAND
Univ Athletic Assoc – CHICAGO
Upper Midwest Athletic Conf – UW-SUPERIOR
USA South Athletic Conf – MARYVILLE (TENN)

My preseason TOP 5 (in no particular order).  Ask me again tomorrow and this list could change – but here's my thinking as of right now.
CALVIN
MESSIAH
FRANKLIN & MARSHALL
ROWAN
KENYON

TUFTS – did not make my conference list because they have never won the NESCAC in the modern history of the conference's championship play.  However, they are the reigning national champs, so they must also be mentioned here as a top preseason pick.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Caz Bombers on August 11, 2017, 11:39:44 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
Here's my best guess at 2017 picks for each D3 conference.  Plus my Top 5 overall preseason picks.  Let's get the conversation started.


Skyline Conf – MERCHANT MARINE


USMMA's 2017 men's soccer season has been cancelled. Ongoing federal investigation into sexual harassment/hazing/assault matters, relating to both the soccer team and the academy at large. Ugly stuff.

Anyway, Mount Saint Mary or Old Westbury would seem to be the new best bets in this conference.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on August 12, 2017, 01:03:18 AM
Quote from: Caz Bombers on August 11, 2017, 11:39:44 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
Here's my best guess at 2017 picks for each D3 conference.  Plus my Top 5 overall preseason picks.  Let's get the conversation started.


Skyline Conf – MERCHANT MARINE


USMMA's 2017 men's soccer season has been cancelled. Ongoing federal investigation into sexual harassment/hazing/assault matters, relating to both the soccer team and the academy at large. Ugly stuff.

Anyway, Mount Saint Mary or Old Westbury would seem to be the new best bets in this conference.

Wow!  I missed that when I was going through the conferences.  I'll have to move my pick to Mount Saint Mary.  Thanks!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on August 12, 2017, 08:53:24 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM


New England Collegiate Conf - DANIEL WEBSTER



Daniel Webster folded last year.

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Daniel-Webster-College-in-New-Hampshire-Officially-Shuts-Down-425120194.html
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on August 12, 2017, 11:50:35 PM
Quote from: OldNed on August 12, 2017, 08:53:24 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM


New England Collegiate Conf - DANIEL WEBSTER



Daniel Webster folded last year.

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Daniel-Webster-College-in-New-Hampshire-Officially-Shuts-Down-425120194.html

Thank you for that update. I will change my pick for the NECC to REGIS.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Caz Bombers on August 13, 2017, 10:22:47 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 12, 2017, 11:50:35 PM
Quote from: OldNed on August 12, 2017, 08:53:24 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM


New England Collegiate Conf - DANIEL WEBSTER



Daniel Webster folded last year.

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Daniel-Webster-College-in-New-Hampshire-Officially-Shuts-Down-425120194.html

Thank you for that update. I will change my pick for the NECC to REGIS.

Regis switched to the GNAC for this season. Wanna try for Door Number Three?  ;D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on August 13, 2017, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: Caz Bombers on August 13, 2017, 10:22:47 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 12, 2017, 11:50:35 PM
Quote from: OldNed on August 12, 2017, 08:53:24 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM


New England Collegiate Conf - DANIEL WEBSTER



Daniel Webster folded last year.

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Daniel-Webster-College-in-New-Hampshire-Officially-Shuts-Down-425120194.html

Thank you for that update. I will change my pick for the NECC to REGIS.

Regis switched to the GNAC for this season. Wanna try for Door Number Three?  ;D

After a bit of research I see that you are certainly correct.  Thank you!  So Door Number Three it is...NEWBURY.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on August 14, 2017, 06:58:41 PM
Unreal...I had not known about this Merchant Marine mess...That is serious stuff to have the President CANCEL a season completely.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d3soccerfreak on August 14, 2017, 11:06:20 PM
Anyone think Montclair State could challenge for the NJAC title? They are usually a tough squad year in and year out.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: franklyspeaking on August 15, 2017, 07:41:17 AM
Montclair has an "ok" team and they really did not add much this year.  Rowan will be the clear favorite in the NJAC.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dog Face on August 15, 2017, 09:26:05 AM
On the NECC discussion above, look for Dean College to make some serious noise.  Not sure how the rules work given their transition to D3 (whether or not there is a transition period before they can compete in post-season play), but they'll be strong in that conference.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on August 16, 2017, 12:32:36 PM
Quote from: Dog Face on August 15, 2017, 09:26:05 AM
On the NECC discussion above, look for Dean College to make some serious noise.  Not sure how the rules work given their transition to D3 (whether or not there is a transition period before they can compete in post-season play), but they'll be strong in that conference.

I would tend to agree with this statement because Dean has had some very talented sides in the JC ranks BUT their admission standards will be changing because of the move to D3 and I think they will struggle to attract the same talented skilled players they have in the past. There could be some growing pains here and also I do not think the conference they are joining will help there cause any either.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on August 21, 2017, 04:35:48 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
Plus my Top 5 overall preseason picks.  Let's get the conversation started.

My preseason TOP 5 (in no particular order).  Ask me again tomorrow and this list could change – but here's my thinking as of right now.
CALVIN
MESSIAH
FRANKLIN & MARSHALL
ROWAN
KENYON

TUFTS – did not make my conference list because they have never won the NESCAC in the modern history of the conference's championship play.  However, they are the reigning national champs, so they must also be mentioned here as a top preseason pick.

I'd guess something like this...

1. Tufts (hard not to have them slotted here)
2. Messiah (have to be the favorites for this season)
3. Calvin (A quality side that keeps getting better)
4. Rowan (Loaded once again)
5. Amherst (Lost some key pieces but hard to pick against them)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. Thomas, Trinity, Chicago, Kenyon, Brandeis 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on August 21, 2017, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on August 21, 2017, 04:35:48 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
Plus my Top 5 overall preseason picks.  Let's get the conversation started.

My preseason TOP 5 (in no particular order).  Ask me again tomorrow and this list could change – but here's my thinking as of right now.
CALVIN
MESSIAH
FRANKLIN & MARSHALL
ROWAN
KENYON

TUFTS – did not make my conference list because they have never won the NESCAC in the modern history of the conference's championship play.  However, they are the reigning national champs, so they must also be mentioned here as a top preseason pick.

I'd guess something like this...

1. Tufts (hard not to have them slotted here)
2. Messiah (have to be the favorites for this season)
3. Calvin (A quality side that keeps getting better)
4. Rowan (Loaded once again)
5. Amherst (Lost some key pieces but hard to pick against them)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. Thomas, Trinity, Chicago, Kenyon, Brandeis

I did not have Amherst in the my Top 5 mix because they graduated 3 of their 4 top scorers from last year and graduated about 50% of their goals overall.  They also lost a few key defenders.  I just think they will need this year to rebuild a bit, hence I still have them winning the NESCAC (mostly because Tufts just never wins it for some reason), but not in my top 5 overall.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on August 23, 2017, 08:41:14 AM
Keep an eye on Vassar.  They didn't lose much to graduation and 3 of their 4 loses were 1 goal (SLU, Hobart, E-Town).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on August 23, 2017, 09:39:23 AM
Keep an eye on Pfeiffer... should be NCAA tourney eligible in two years.  2015 D2 Champs open vs Lynchburg and Noke during this early transition period...

Not sure if going D3 helps their cause and could see them being like NC Wesleyan in the future, with the foreign pool of players
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on August 23, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
D2 Pfeiffer won the NCAA D2 Title under former Rutgers coach Bob Reasso. That team was filled with mid 20's Spanish players and while very entertaining to watch I doubt they will be getting those type of players thru admissions in D3.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on August 23, 2017, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on August 23, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
D2 Pfeiffer won the NCAA D2 Title under former Rutgers coach Bob Reasso. That team was filled with mid 20's Spanish players and while very entertaining to watch I doubt they will be getting those type of players thru admissions in D3.

Side note: Never saw Pfeiffer play, but Rutger's style under Reasso was simply awful.  Players staying in their running lanes up and down the field and lots of long ball.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Clotpoll on August 24, 2017, 08:45:20 PM
Amen. Reasso just a disastrously bad manager.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on August 24, 2017, 09:55:42 PM
There's no way Pfeiffer will be able to get in players remotely close to the quality of their current squad once they have to adhere to d3 eligibility rules.  They'll be a non-factor once they're ncaa eligible in a few years I think.  It should be interesting to see what sort of results they get in the meantime while they churn through their current enrollment though.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on August 25, 2017, 10:07:14 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 21, 2017, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on August 21, 2017, 04:35:48 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM
Plus my Top 5 overall preseason picks.  Let's get the conversation started.

My preseason TOP 5 (in no particular order).  Ask me again tomorrow and this list could change – but here's my thinking as of right now.
CALVIN
MESSIAH
FRANKLIN & MARSHALL
ROWAN
KENYON

TUFTS – did not make my conference list because they have never won the NESCAC in the modern history of the conference's championship play.  However, they are the reigning national champs, so they must also be mentioned here as a top preseason pick.

I'd guess something like this...

1. Tufts (hard not to have them slotted here)
2. Messiah (have to be the favorites for this season)
3. Calvin (A quality side that keeps getting better)
4. Rowan (Loaded once again)
5. Amherst (Lost some key pieces but hard to pick against them)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. Thomas, Trinity, Chicago, Kenyon, Brandeis

I did not have Amherst in the my Top 5 mix because they graduated 3 of their 4 top scorers from last year and graduated about 50% of their goals overall.  They also lost a few key defenders.  I just think they will need this year to rebuild a bit, hence I still have them winning the NESCAC (mostly because Tufts just never wins it for some reason), but not in my top 5 overall.

Completely understandable and I don't blame you. For me it's just hard to pick against a team that has only lost 4 times in the last 6 years.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on August 28, 2017, 08:44:02 AM
Opening Weekend Notable Match-ups

9/1
Chicago vs Whitworth
Kenyon vs CMU
Calvin vs OWU
Grove City vs ONU
Roanoke vs UMass Boston
Leb Val vs Muhles
Lynchburg vs Pfeiffer
Etown vs Morrisville St
Gordon vs Montclair St
St. Mary's (Md) vs Gettsyburg
Babson vs SLU
RUC vs Lycoming
Stevens vs Kean
Endicott vs MIT
Wheaton (Ill) vs St. Olaf

9/2
MW vs Messiah
CNU vs W&L
Rowan vs Lycoming
Cortland vs Brandeis
Salisbury vs Gettysburg
Dickinson vs Morrisville St
Rochester vs Misericordia

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on August 28, 2017, 11:30:59 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on August 28, 2017, 08:44:02 AM
Opening Weekend Notable Match-ups

9/1
Chicago vs Whitworth
Kenyon vs CMU
Calvin vs OWU
Grove City vs ONU
Roanoke vs UMass Boston
Leb Val vs Muhles
Lynchburg vs Pfeiffer
Etown vs Morrisville St
Gordon vs Montclair St
St. Mary's (Md) vs Gettsyburg
Babson vs SLU
RUC vs Lycoming
Stevens vs Kean
Endicott vs MIT
Wheaton (Ill) vs St. Olaf

9/2
MW vs Messiah
CNU vs W&L
Rowan vs Lycoming
Cortland vs Brandeis
Salisbury vs Gettysburg
Dickinson vs Morrisville St
Rochester vs Misericordia

Also on 9/2:
Loras vs Wheaton (Ill)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on August 28, 2017, 08:39:47 PM
Ah yes great addition!  :D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: KICKIN95 on August 30, 2017, 06:03:42 PM
Loras has absolutely dominated Wheaton in this "Derby" with the DuHawks compiling an extremely impressive 7-1-1 record against the Thunder. 6-0 in the "Rock Bowl" and 1-1-1 away. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on August 31, 2017, 12:24:19 PM
Quote from: Dubuquer on August 28, 2017, 11:30:59 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on August 28, 2017, 08:44:02 AM
Opening Weekend Notable Match-ups

9/1
Chicago vs Whitworth
Kenyon vs CMU
Calvin vs OWU
Grove City vs ONU
Roanoke vs UMass Boston
Leb Val vs Muhles
Lynchburg vs Pfeiffer
Etown vs Morrisville St
Gordon vs Montclair St
St. Mary's (Md) vs Gettsyburg
Babson vs SLU
RUC vs Lycoming
Stevens vs Kean
Endicott vs MIT
Wheaton (Ill) vs St. Olaf

9/2
MW vs Messiah
CNU vs W&L
Rowan vs Lycoming
Cortland vs Brandeis
Salisbury vs Gettysburg
Dickinson vs Morrisville St
Rochester vs Misericordia

Also on 9/2:
Loras vs Wheaton (Ill)

9/1 Messiah plays Chapman. They made it to 2nd round of NCAA last season. Not a pushover for Messiah.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on August 31, 2017, 09:09:28 PM
Quote from: rudy on August 31, 2017, 12:24:19 PM
Quote from: Dubuquer on August 28, 2017, 11:30:59 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on August 28, 2017, 08:44:02 AM
Opening Weekend Notable Match-ups

9/1
Chicago vs Whitworth
Kenyon vs CMU
Calvin vs OWU
Grove City vs ONU
Roanoke vs UMass Boston
Leb Val vs Muhles
Lynchburg vs Pfeiffer
Etown vs Morrisville St
Gordon vs Montclair St
St. Mary's (Md) vs Gettsyburg
Babson vs SLU
RUC vs Lycoming
Stevens vs Kean
Endicott vs MIT
Wheaton (Ill) vs St. Olaf

9/2
MW vs Messiah
CNU vs W&L
Rowan vs Lycoming
Cortland vs Brandeis
Salisbury vs Gettysburg
Dickinson vs Morrisville St
Rochester vs Misericordia

Also on 9/2:
Loras vs Wheaton (Ill)

9/1 Messiah plays Chapman. They made it to 2nd round of NCAA last season. Not a pushover for Messiah.

It looks like Chapman has never won the SCIAC conference. They have made the national tournament 3 times since 2000, bowing out twice in the first round and once in the second round.  They were shut out 6 times last year and they are not ranked in the top 25 in the national preseason poll (although it looks like they may have picked up a few votes).  While Chapman certainly looks to be a well above average team, at least on paper I would think Messiah would be expected to play to a win in this one. Someone with more knowledge of the Caiifornia soccer scence will be able to add more insight that I can't see from researching online.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 01, 2017, 08:11:31 PM
Final from Chicago:

University of Chicago   2
Whitworth.                  1

Uninspiring opener for the Maroons against what seemed to be a talented and game Whitworth side.  Whitworth controlled possession for what seemed like the first 70 minutes or so but still trailed 1-0 at half on a goal by chicagos sophomore tommy tenuta set by cross from Matthew Koh. Whitworth scored midway thru 2nd on header off a set piece to grab momentum, but chicagos depth and liberal substitutions seemed to wear Whitworth down a bit and that gave max Lopez the opening he needed to score in the 86 minute.  Due to some nagging early season injuries, looked as if Chicago was without a few back line starters from last year.

Something about those teams out west that seem to give Chicago fits. Last game last year in round of sixteen Redlands gave them fits and ended up advancing 3-2.  I was at the game today and was pretty impressed Whitworth. Good cohesive groups that plays a nice brand of possession soccer.  I do know that they have won their conference the last three years thus getting in the tournament. Lost first round last year to Trinity.

Although Chicago seemed uninspired,  they are loaded with offensive weapons and three all Americans down the middle of the pitch in Lopez, copotosto, and keeper Hill Bonin.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 01, 2017, 08:32:28 PM
W&L beats Greensboro 2-1 at CNU despite playing the entire second half a man down due to an end of first half red card. I didn't see it, so no comment, but a long time to play a man down and they did well. Might be some tired legs tomorrow against CNU.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on September 02, 2017, 09:12:05 AM
Quote from: 4samuy on September 01, 2017, 08:11:31 PM
Final from Chicago:

University of Chicago   2
Whitworth.                  1

Uninspiring opener for the Maroons against what seemed to be a talented and game Whitworth side.  Whitworth controlled possession for what seemed like the first 70 minutes or so but still trailed 1-0 at half on a goal by chicagos sophomore tommy tenuta set by cross from Matthew Koh. Whitworth scored midway thru 2nd on header off a set piece to grab momentum, but chicagos depth and liberal substitutions seemed to wear Whitworth down a bit and that gave max Lopez the opening he needed to score in the 86 minute.  Due to some nagging early season injuries, looked as if Chicago was without a few back line starters from last year.

Something about those teams out west that seem to give Chicago fits. Last game last year in round of sixteen Redlands gave them fits and ended up advancing 3-2.  I was at the game today and was pretty impressed Whitworth. Good cohesive groups that plays a nice brand of possession soccer.  I do know that they have won their conference the last three years thus getting in the tournament. Lost first round last year to Trinity.

Although Chicago seemed uninspired,  they are loaded with offensive weapons and three all Americans down the middle of the pitch in Lopez, copotosto, and keeper Hill Bonin.

I'll agree the first half effort from Chicago was lackluster but they recovered after a rough 20-25 minutes. The second half was a rout. The Maroons outshot Whitworth 11-1 and missed 2 absolute sitters one-on-one with the GK. Lopez hit the crossbar with a rocket as well. Final shoulda been 4-1. Chicago was pressing with such ferocity in the second half that most of Whitworth's back passes was almost picked and the Pirates frequently panicked and booted the ball out of bounds trying to connect. Lopez was nearly uncontainable with the ball at his feet and in traffic. Bottom line, it was first game of the year and those tend to be loose affairs.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 11:15:18 AM
Bummer this season for Rowan is i hear one of their All Americans is out this year with an injury ...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: deutschfan on September 02, 2017, 11:54:55 AM
Chicago v Whitworth was unwatchable. Ugly soccer on both sides. Followed that with Costa Rica game.  May be time to start following baseball.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 03, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds

There was no video stream for this one. Were you at the game? Can you elaborate more on what you thought? This was a very nice win for Lycoming on the road.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 03, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 03, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds

There was no video stream for this one. Were you at the game? Can you elaborate more on what you thought? This was a very nice win for Lycoming on the road.


Yeah i was there. It was a very very entertaining game to say the least. Rowan's goals in the run of play were beautiful. Lycoming was very very tough and pretty much "NJACed" Rowan. Lycoming was given a penalty as well. the ref did a tremendous job keeping a physical game under control. Rowan without Doherty is in trouble...BUT the transfer from Ramapo #10 is legit.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2017, 08:46:01 AM

Opening Weekend Notable Match-ups

9/1
Chicago vs Whitworth (2-1)
Kenyon vs CMU (2-1 2OT)
Calvin vs OWU (2-1 2OT)
Grove City vs ONU (1-1 2OT)
Roanoke vs UMass Boston (0-0 2OT)
Leb Val vs Muhles (1-2)
Lynchburg vs Pfeiffer (1-0)
Etown vs Morrisville St (7-1)
Gordon vs Montclair St (0-1)
St. Mary's (Md) vs Gettsyburg (1-2)
Babson vs SLU (3-2)
RUC vs Lycoming (0-2)
Stevens vs Kean (5-2)
Endicott vs MIT (0-0 2OT)
Wheaton (Ill) vs St. Olaf (3-0)

9/2
MW vs Messiah (1-3)
CNU vs W&L (1-2)
Rowan vs Lycoming (2-3)
Cortland vs Brandeis (3-2)
Salisbury vs Gettysburg (0-1 2OT)
Dickinson vs Morrisville St (8-2)
Rochester vs Misericordia (2-1)
Wheaton vs Loras (1-2)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2017, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 03, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 03, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds

There was no video stream for this one. Were you at the game? Can you elaborate more on what you thought? This was a very nice win for Lycoming on the road.


Yeah i was there. It was a very very entertaining game to say the least. Rowan's goals in the run of play were beautiful. Lycoming was very very tough and pretty much "NJACed" Rowan. Lycoming was given a penalty as well. the ref did a tremendous job keeping a physical game under control. Rowan without Doherty is in trouble...BUT the transfer from Ramapo #10 is legit.

Sounds like a great game. Wish I could have seen it! Were they evenly matched? Will Rowan be able to adapt without Doherty? 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2017, 09:19:27 AM
Shooter's Top 25 Poll
1) Tufts (DNP)
2) Calvin (2-0-0)
3) Messiah (2-0-0)
4) St. Thomas (2-0-0)
5) Chicago (2-0-0)
6) Amherst (DNP)
7) Trinity (Tx) (2-0-0)
8) Cortland St. (2-0-0)
9) Rutgers Newark (2-0-0)
10) W&L (2-0-0)
11) Oneonta St. (2-0-0)
12) Babson (2-0-0)
13) Lynchburg (1-0-1)
14) Haverford (1-0-0)
15) Vassar (2-0-0)
16) Scranton (2-0-0)
17) John Carroll (2-0-0)
18) Aurora (2-0-0)
19) Dickinson (2-0-0)
20) Rochester (2-0-0)
21) Lycoming (2-0-0)
22) Endicott (1-0-1)
23) Brandeis (1-1)
24) Rowan (1-1)
25) UMass-Boston (0-0-2)
RV: Eastern, Gettysburg, Hopkins, F&M, Etown, York, CNU, CMU, ONU, OWU, MSU, RUC, Emory, Geneva, PSU-Behrand, Wash U, Carthage, Loras, Springfield, Chapman

The top 15 are relatively easy based off last year's finish and this year's start. 16-22 are reserved for good wins and strong starts to this season. 23-RV are for strong teams that may have gotten tripped up by another strong team but that L in the loss column sees them on the outside looking in or possibly an undefeated start but vs weaker opponents. I am sure we will see many of these teams creep back in the top 25.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 06, 2017, 07:49:06 AM
Does anybody know when the first rankings/polls will actually be released? Tuesdays? Wednesdays? I feel like this flip flops each year and for each website.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on September 06, 2017, 09:23:42 AM
Due to being behind schedule and short-staffed, the D3soccer.com Top 25 will only start next week.

Whenever the season basically starts on a weekend, there's a debate whether it makes sense to do a poll that Monday (or Tuesday in case of Labor Day) or wait a week.  Since D3soccer.com does not do a preseason Top 25, I usually lean towards doing a Top 25 even after just a weekend of games. This year that really wasn't an option for us, unfortunately.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 06, 2017, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on September 06, 2017, 09:23:42 AM
Due to being behind schedule and short-staffed, the D3soccer.com Top 25 will only start next week.

Whenever the season basically starts on a weekend, there's a debate whether it makes sense to do a poll that Monday (or Tuesday in case of Labor Day) or wait a week.  Since D3soccer.com does not do a preseason Top 25, I usually lean towards doing a Top 25 even after just a weekend of games. This year that really wasn't an option for us, unfortunately.

Completely understand Christian! Thanks for clarifying and I think most will agree that we love the website and hope it keeps going for years to come! You guys do a tremendous job for the D3 soccer community and it's much appreciated by all.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 06, 2017, 07:34:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2017, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 03, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 03, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds

There was no video stream for this one. Were you at the game? Can you elaborate more on what you thought? This was a very nice win for Lycoming on the road.


Yeah i was there. It was a very very entertaining game to say the least. Rowan's goals in the run of play were beautiful. Lycoming was very very tough and pretty much "NJACed" Rowan. Lycoming was given a penalty as well. the ref did a tremendous job keeping a physical game under control. Rowan without Doherty is in trouble...BUT the transfer from Ramapo #10 is legit.

Sounds like a great game. Wish I could have seen it! Were they evenly matched? Will Rowan be able to adapt without Doherty?


Rowan is in trouble without him. you can tell they don't have the same creativity as they used to. it's like the heart of the team just isn't there. and i know a few players personally, they are worried.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 07, 2017, 11:17:38 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 06, 2017, 07:34:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2017, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 03, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 03, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds

There was no video stream for this one. Were you at the game? Can you elaborate more on what you thought? This was a very nice win for Lycoming on the road.


Yeah i was there. It was a very very entertaining game to say the least. Rowan's goals in the run of play were beautiful. Lycoming was very very tough and pretty much "NJACed" Rowan. Lycoming was given a penalty as well. the ref did a tremendous job keeping a physical game under control. Rowan without Doherty is in trouble...BUT the transfer from Ramapo #10 is legit.

Sounds like a great game. Wish I could have seen it! Were they evenly matched? Will Rowan be able to adapt without Doherty?


Rowan is in trouble without him. you can tell they don't have the same creativity as they used to. it's like the heart of the team just isn't there. and i know a few players personally, they are worried.

A 7-0 win last night seems like they are rebounding nicely. I can't imagine they would be worried with losing one player. Yes he is arguably the best player on that team but they have tons of depth and playmakers. Will be intrigued to see how it pans our for them this year! Rowan was definitely a preseason favorite for NCAA Final 4 before losing Doherty.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 07, 2017, 11:20:27 AM
St. Lawrence @ Oneonta St tomorrow...is this a must win for SLU?? Or at least a must to to get a result?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on September 07, 2017, 11:46:45 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 07, 2017, 11:17:38 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 06, 2017, 07:34:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 05, 2017, 08:48:21 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 03, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 03, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 02, 2017, 09:35:14 PM
this lycoming vs rowan game is actually insane. goals back and forth. rowan keeper with the worst mistake i've ever seen. just let a free kick go in from 35yds

There was no video stream for this one. Were you at the game? Can you elaborate more on what you thought? This was a very nice win for Lycoming on the road.


Yeah i was there. It was a very very entertaining game to say the least. Rowan's goals in the run of play were beautiful. Lycoming was very very tough and pretty much "NJACed" Rowan. Lycoming was given a penalty as well. the ref did a tremendous job keeping a physical game under control. Rowan without Doherty is in trouble...BUT the transfer from Ramapo #10 is legit.

Sounds like a great game. Wish I could have seen it! Were they evenly matched? Will Rowan be able to adapt without Doherty?


Rowan is in trouble without him. you can tell they don't have the same creativity as they used to. it's like the heart of the team just isn't there. and i know a few players personally, they are worried.

A 7-0 win last night seems like they are rebounding nicely. I can't imagine they would be worried with losing one player. Yes he is arguably the best player on that team but they have tons of depth and playmakers. Will be intrigued to see how it pans our for them this year! Rowan was definitely a preseason favorite for NCAA Final 4 before losing Doherty.

A 7-0 win against an Albright team who has won a total of 3 games the past 2 seasons  ;D 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Part_Bart on September 07, 2017, 12:47:01 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 07, 2017, 11:20:27 AM
St. Lawrence @ Oneonta St tomorrow...is this a must win for SLU?? Or at least a must to to get a result?

Oneonta also has much to do.  The SUNYAC will be very good at the top: Cortland looked quite impressive this past weekend beating Brandeis, and then being able to beat a very very well organized Eastern Connecticut (who kept 10 behind the ball until after they went down).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 07, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 07, 2017, 11:20:27 AM
St. Lawrence @ Oneonta St tomorrow...is this a must win for SLU?? Or at least a must to to get a result?


I would say they need at least a draw because a loss will force them to win the LL unless they string about 9-10 wins in a row
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 08, 2017, 07:54:30 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 07, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 07, 2017, 11:20:27 AM
St. Lawrence @ Oneonta St tomorrow...is this a must win for SLU?? Or at least a must to to get a result?


I would say they need at least a draw because a loss will force them to win the LL unless they string about 9-10 wins in a row

I echo what Mr. Right says. A loss puts them in a win conference or bust situation but a draw still keeps them alive for the time being.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on September 08, 2017, 09:30:23 AM
Doherty played against Albright. He is not out for the year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
For those of with little do there is an interesting slate of games this afternoon and tonight, with maybe the best being Carnegie Mellon at Redlands in the nightcap at 9:00 pm EST.

Wheaton (Ill) at Puget Sound is another interesting intersectional tilt, and other notables include DePauw at Wash U, Calvin at CWRU, St Thomas vs Capital (at OWU), and the already mentioned SLU at Oneonta.  Sleeper options include Kzoo at Ohio Northern and UW-W at Augsburg.

BTW, I currently have Calvin pegged at the #1 team in the country, followed closely by Chicago.  I have Messiah in that mix as well but we can't just ignore the Haverford loss.  Tufts is in the process of re-creating itself but I expect them to again be a prominent concern come tourney-time.  The board here seems a little unsettled on what to do with Rowan, but that's another team sure to be knocking around the top 5 most of the season.  Who will be this year's surprise elite team?  W&L?  Bowdoin (as some in NESCACville seem to be predicting)? Lynchburg? Lycoming?

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 08, 2017, 12:19:16 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
Who will be this year's surprise elite team?  W&L?  Bowdoin (as some in NESCACville seem to be predicting)? Lynchburg? Lycoming?

I liked what I saw from W&L vs. CNU, and I thought G'burg looked dangerous. Still early, but both are definitely on my radar.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 01:01:32 PM
Random, gratuitous prediction....St Thomas leaves Delaware, OH with two L's this weekend.

STU has a huge roster but I can't tell if they have a huge number of returnees.  A quick glance suggested maybe not.  Newbies should be aware that the preseason ranking is based entirely on last year's finish and should not be interpreted as any kind of prediction of how any particular team will fare in 2017.  STU also has the burden of showing that last year's magical run was not a "one and done" kind of deal.  Not sure of the last time they made the tournament before last year.

Addendum:  The website references last postseason win of any type (conference or NCAA) prior to 2015 occurring in 1991 with a win over Macalester.  The D3soccer data on participants last year indicates last NCAA appearance before last year was 1995 with 6 total appearances all-time.  Last year's run was truly remarkable.  It's difficult to remember just how much of a favorite Chicago was to advance out of that quadrant with probably Redlands as the next favorite.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 08, 2017, 02:45:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 01:01:32 PM
Random, gratuitous prediction....St Thomas leaves Delaware, OH with two L's this weekend.

STU has a huge roster but I can't tell if they have a huge number of returnees.  A quick glance suggested maybe not.  Newbies should be aware that the preseason ranking is based entirely on last year's finish and should not be interpreted as any kind of prediction of how any particular team will fare in 2017.  STU also has the burden of showing that last year's magical run was not a "one and done" kind of deal.  Not sure of the last time they made the tournament before last year.

Addendum:  The website references last postseason win of any type (conference or NCAA) prior to 2015 occurring in 1991 with a win over Macalester.  The D3soccer data on participants last year indicates last NCAA appearance before last year was 1995 with 6 total appearances all-time.  Last year's run was truly remarkable.  It's difficult to remember just how much of a favorite Chicago was to advance out of that quadrant with probably Redlands as the next favorite.


"Re: Should do better, bounceback candidates, emerging programs, etc
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2017, 09:37:24 am »
Haven't read everything in this thread but has St. Thomas been mentioned as a potential candidate for emerging programs? Went from 9-8-2 in 2014 to 12-7-1 and losing in the conference final in 2015 to 20-2-3 in 2016 and the Final 4. According to their website and schedule release, St. Thomas graduated six seniors but is expected return over 60% of their goal scoring and their top goalie. I think they can be considered an emerging team at this point."

See above from my post earlier this summer. Looks like they lost half the starters but return a majority of the scoring power and top GK. Capital and OWU will be good tests for them.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 09:15:06 PM
Calvin is so incredibly efficient.  CWRU was leading in shots but Calvin up 3-0.

Capital takes STU 2-0.  Cap GK made some great saves.  STU fought valiantly , and maybe a little overly aggressively, last 25 minutes. 

Chicago crushes St Norbert 7-1 although shots comparison doesn't reflect that scoreline.

Kenyon only musters a 1-0 win over Spalding.  24-4 on shots but only 6 on goal.  Anemic offense a concern, as is apparent movement of arguably best CB in D3 being moved further up the field each game.  That suggests they need him up front, which isn't great although he will surely help.  Imagine Calvin moving Vegter to attacking mid.  Kenyon defense will remain solid, but still....

OWU pounds Millikin 4-1 with a typical OWU offensive output of 32 to 8 in shots.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 08, 2017, 09:35:41 PM
 speaking of efficient,  Chicago took 18 shots against a pretty good St Norbert side, 12 on goal and scored on 7. Lopez with a hat trick. The three headed monster of Lopez,Koh and Adeyoson scored 5 of the seven.  Interesting note,  Chicago sat their entire  starting backline IMHO due to the fact that they have a back to back at #22 Carthage tomorrow night and a couple of minor injuries.  Chicago has played its first three games outside of the Central region, Whitworth (west), Knox and St Norbert(north). I like that and with the UAA schedule that will add, I believe 3 0r 4 more regions.  It will be interesting to see how the backline is set up tomorrow.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 09:56:47 PM
Puget Sound prevails over Wheaton (Ill) in late action, with Wheaton scoring in 89th minute for 2-1 final outcome.

Wash U up 3-0 on DePauw.

The UAA may have one of its better years.  CMU is looking very good.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 09, 2017, 07:53:36 AM
Just glancing at teams schedules....Who will end up having the toughest schedule this year? The best SOS ?

I would have to say CWU's schedule is extremely challenging on paper and if the pieces fall into place they might end up with a .645-.650 SOS.

at DePauw
v Calvin
v John Carroll
at Ohio Wesleyan
v Lycoming
at Kenyon
v Brandeis
v Oberlin
at Wash U
at Chicago
v North Park
v Rochester
v Emory
v Carnegie Mellon

There is absolutely no let up..Is Marietta any good? They have them also.

I see 2 cupcakes:

Mount Union
Brooklyn

and 1 average team:

NYU


With that schedule almost all their wins will be v Ranked. They could finish with 6 and maybe 7 losses and make the NCAA's...Will be interesting come November and when the first Regional Rankings come out.

The only possible issue i see is that they only have 5 Away games in that mix of teams. They might need to get 2 wins away from home from that mix.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 09, 2017, 11:23:29 AM
OWU is hosting the tournament but the Capital games are being played at Cap. And yes, Niswonger's saves were ridiculous last night - St. T probably would have had 3-4 goals on any other night. Soccer is a cruel mistress - in Cap's loss to St. Mary's the St. M keeper made three outstanding saves (I shook his hand after the match).

One of the St. T twins commented how frustrating it was to play against the formation Cap used. Said he gets it and gave the Cap team credit for their execution. Very classy group of lads.

But ST. T will need some time to replace those defenders - I'm sure they're frustrated with the goals conceded.


Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2017, 09:15:06 PM
Calvin is so incredibly efficient.  CWRU was leading in shots but Calvin up 3-0.

Capital takes STU 2-0.  Cap GK made some great saves.  STU fought valiantly , and maybe a little overly aggressively, last 25 minutes. 

Chicago crushes St Norbert 7-1 although shots comparison doesn't reflect that scoreline.

Kenyon only musters a 1-0 win over Spalding.  24-4 on shots but only 6 on goal.  Anemic offense a concern, as is apparent movement of arguably best CB in D3 being moved further up the field each game.  That suggests they need him up front, which isn't great although he will surely help.  Imagine Calvin moving Vegter to attacking mid.  Kenyon defense will remain solid, but still....

OWU pounds Millikin 4-1 with a typical OWU offensive output of 32 to 8 in shots.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 09, 2017, 12:53:50 PM
Are there no D3s in the state of Florida? Never thought of that before but can't think of one. Any theories on how or why that is in a state that big with so many schools?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 09, 2017, 01:23:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 09, 2017, 12:53:50 PM
Are there no D3s in the state of Florida? Never thought of that before but can't think of one. Any theories on how or why that is in a state that big with so many schools?

You need enough to make a full conference all at once. There aren't that many smaller schools and all the secondary state schools believe in big time football. The state is huge North to South. You just can't have a team midway down the state in a conference with tears in GA or AL, it's just too far.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 10, 2017, 06:51:58 PM
W&L conceded an own goal with less than 3 minutes to play in regulation. Tough way to head into overtime but the Generals and F&M Dips go out on a 2-2 tie. Good game. Pretty even. I think overall W&L had a little bit more of the play, especially in the second half when they pulled in 2 goals off corners to take a 2-1 lead, but definitely a tough way to end.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on September 10, 2017, 07:11:55 PM
JCU might deserve some national attention. Started 4-0. Three of the teams they beat (Kenyon, Medaille, and Penn State-Behrend) have them as the only loss. Play OWU next week, should be exciting.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 10, 2017, 08:10:39 PM
Quote from: jknezek on September 10, 2017, 06:51:58 PM
W&L conceded an own goal with less than 3 minutes to play in regulation. Tough way to head into overtime but the Generals and F&M Dips go out on a 2-2 tie. Good game. Pretty even. I think overall W&L had a little bit more of the play, especially in the second half when they pulled in 2 goals off corners to take a 2-1 lead, but definitely a tough way to end.
Agreed -  the similarities in style of play, the type of players on each side - looked like mirror images.  First half favored F&M - W&L came out to start the second half with much more energy.  That second goal directly from the corner was a beaut.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 10, 2017, 08:17:07 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on September 10, 2017, 07:11:55 PM
JCU might deserve some national attention. Started 4-0. Three of the teams they beat (Kenyon, Medaille, and Penn State-Behrend) have them as the only loss. Play OWU next week, should be exciting.
Don't look past Case!  Watched the game today - wanted to see if Medaille was for real.  They weren't today.  Didn't get shot until the 40th minute - their defense was non-existent. They played better in the second half - two goal-saving plays by JCU's defense and keeper in the last ten minutes. But JCU was ready to go from the opening whistle - Medaille was not.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 11, 2017, 09:14:32 AM
Shooter's Top 25 Poll-Week 2
1) Tufts (3-0-0)
2) Calvin (4-0-0)
3) Chicago (4-0-0)
4) Rutgers Newark (5-0-0)
5) Amherst (1-0-0)
6) Oneonta St. (4-0-0)
7) Trinity (Tx) (4-0-0)
8) Haverford (3-0-1)
9) W&L (3-0-1)
10) Messiah (3-1-0)
11) Scranton (4-0-0)
12) St. Thomas (4-1-0)
13) Lynchburg (3-0-1)
14) Cortland St. (4-1-0)
15) John Carroll (4-0-0)
16) Kenyon (4-1-0)
17) Lycoming (5-0-0)
18) Rowan (4-1)
19) Endicott (2-0-1)
20) Carnegie Mellon (3-1-0)
21) Gettysburg (4-0-0)
22) Loras (3-1-0)
23) Brandeis (2-1)
24) Springfield (4-0-0)
25) Dickinson (3-1-0)

RV: UMass-Boston, Rochester, Eastern, Hopkins, F&M, Capital, ONU, OWU, CWR, Aurora, Wartburg, Geneva, PSU-Behrend, Wash U, Carthage, Union, St. John Fisher, RPI, Stockton, W&P, Cal Lutheran
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on September 11, 2017, 11:04:45 AM
A little dose of revenge for Scranton knocking off Cortland in 2OT. Scranton lost to Cortland in the NCAA's last year...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 11, 2017, 11:07:28 AM
Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 11, 2017, 11:04:45 AM
A little dose of revenge for Scranton knocking off Cortland in 2OT. Scranton lost to Cortland in the NCAA's last year...

That is a nice win for the Royals especially on the road if I read correctly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 11, 2017, 10:48:54 PM
Not a bad list Shooter, however I would mix in the regions a little more as the NCAA will as time goes on. I agree with Chicago at # 3 based on last years Final and their unfortunate exit in the round of 16. However, I would note that of their first 4 games, 3 were against tournament teams from last year and from three different regions in Whitworth, St Norbert and Carthage. What does that mean? Not much I guess, because each season stands on its own, but I think all will be regionally ranked (yes, I know a long way away) which will enhance strength of schedule.  I know I'm most likely looking ahead,  But Chicagos next three, at Loras, at Aurora and at Wheaton, will test the grit of Chicago. I've see Tufts, Calvin and Chicago play and all have their strengths and challenges, but the quick counter of Chicago is very difficult to defend .  If they get their nicked up back line healthy,  They will be a tough out come tournament time
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 12, 2017, 01:32:29 PM
http://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Rankings/College_Rankings/NCAA_DIII_MEN/web/rankings/ncaa/diii_men.aspx

United Soccer Coaches NCAA Division III Men - National - Poll 1 - September 12, 2017

Rank   School   Prev.   W-L-T
1   Tufts University   1   3-0-0
2   Calvin College   2   4-0-0
3   University Of Chicago   9   4-0-0
4   Trinity University (Texas)   12   4-0-0
5   SUNY Oneonta   14   4-0-0
6   Lycoming College   NR   5-0-0
7   John Carroll University   NR   4-0-0
8   Haverford College   18   4-0-0
9   Washington & Lee University   24   3-0-1
10   Amherst College   10   1-0-0
11   University of St. Thomas   3   4-1-0
12   Oglethorpe University   NR   4-0-0
13   Wartburg College   NR   3-0-1
14   SUNY Cortland   13   3-1-0
15   Kenyon College   5   4-1-0
16   Messiah College   11   3-1-0
17   Rutgers University-Newark   8   5-0-0
18   Carthage College   22   2-1-0
19   Loras College   NR   3-1-0
20   Colorado College   NR   2-1-1
21   Carnegie Mellon University   20   3-1-0
22   Franklin & Marshall College   6   2-1-1
23   Union College   NR   4-0-0
24   Rowan University   17   4-1-0
25   University Of Massachusetts-Boston   15   2-0-2
Records shown are as of games through Sept. 10, 2017

Also receiving votes: North Park University, University of Texas-Dallas, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Washington University (Mo.)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 12, 2017, 04:58:10 PM
http://d3soccer.com/top25/men/2017/week2

September 12, 2017
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 2
Through games of Sunday, September 10, 2017

#   School (1st Pl. Votes)   Record   Pts.   Prev.
1   Calvin (5)   4-0-0   934   —
2   Tufts (11)   3-0-0   908   —
3   Chicago   4-0-0   866   —
4   Trinity (Texas)   4-0-0   814   —
5   Lycoming   5-0-0   783   —
6   Rutgers-Newark   5-0-0   776   —
7   Amherst   1-0-0   738   —
8   Oneonta State   4-0-0   668   —
9   John Carroll   4-0-0   635   —
10   Haverford   3-0-1   611   —
11   Kenyon   4-1-0   505   —
12   Messiah   3-1-0   502   —
13   Scranton   4-0-0   471   —
14   Johns Hopkins   4-0-0   435   —
15   Washington and Lee   3-0-1   382   —
16   St. Thomas   4-1-0   360   —
17   Rowan   4-1-0   350   —
18   Carnegie Mellon   3-1-0   308   —
19   Cortland State   4-1-0   294   —
20   Brandeis   2-1-0   248   —
21   Gettysburg   4-0-0   226   —
22   Wartburg   3-0-1   196   —
23   Lynchburg   3-0-1   184   —
24   Stockton   5-0-0   182   —
25   Loras   3-1-0   150   —
Receiving Votes: Washington U. 149, Connecticut College 118, Geneva 112, Fredonia State 96, Capital 96, Williams 85, Aurora 78, Springfield 78, North Park 75, Oglethorpe 59, Simpson 45, Christopher Newport 28, Franklin and Marshall 26, Oswego State 16, St. Joseph's (Maine) 14, Benedictine 14, Bowdoin 9, Marietta 2, Eastern 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2017, 01:50:05 PM
The Great Lakes region looks to be the most competitive so far. Any thoughts on other regions?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 13, 2017, 03:08:26 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 13, 2017, 01:50:05 PM
The Great Lakes region looks to be the most competitive so far. Any thoughts on other regions?

Hold that thought until after this weekend.  OWU, Capital have yet to play another GL team; others mentioned in the rankings may have played 1 GL team?  Many of the top-tier GL teams play one-another over the next 10-14 days, taking us to the beginning of conference play.  We shall see . . .
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on September 13, 2017, 10:30:14 PM
Just watched Chicago take down Loras 3-0.  Chicago scored in the first few minutes of each half and then scored again with 3 seconds left in the game. Loras keeper stopped a PK, too. The final score belies how even the game was, though. Chicago's strikers are just so freakishly efficient. Any team that lets them turn with the ball and run at them will pay the price. For what it's worth I've never been to a game where there there did not seem to be one single fan from the visiting team there. Maybe that's common in the UAA where teams are spread across the country but Dubuque is only 3 hours from Chicago...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on September 13, 2017, 10:42:44 PM
Quote from: Dubuquer on September 13, 2017, 10:30:14 PM
Just watched Chicago take down Loras 3-0.  Chicago scored in the first few minutes of each half and then scored again with 3 seconds left in the game. Loras keeper stopped a PK, too. The final score belies how even the game was, though. Chicago's strikers are just so freakishly efficient. Any team that lets them turn with the ball and run at them will pay the price. For what it's worth I've never been to a game where there there did not seem to be one single fan from the visiting team there. Maybe that's common in the UAA where teams are spread across the country but Dubuque is only 3 hours from Chicago...
People probably didn't want to get home after midnight on a Wednesday.
You'll be hard pressed to find a better forward group in the nation than Chicago's. Lopez can score at any moment and demands double coverage. Koh runs past any defender you put on him. Adeosun has great dribbling and creativity. Once their defense sharpens up, they could be back to last year's form quickly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 12:01:01 AM
Rutgers Newark play Camden next... i can not remember the last time Camden lost to newark.. that could be trouble for them. i hope Newark get their first NJAC this year, but they tend to struggle against Camden. the game is in newark so they may help a little. should be very interesting might make the trip to see that. or watch online
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on September 15, 2017, 09:39:14 AM
would anyone volunteer to do a "How They Fared" of the d3soccer top 25? They do something similar on the Basketball board; of course I am not volunteering myself.

This is what the basketball one looks like:

How They Fared (Complete) -- final report for 2016-17

Top 25
Rank      Pts      Team   W-L      Results
#1   615   Babson   25-2   def. Springfield, 67-62; LOST to #31 MIT, 62-65
#2   610   Whitman   27-0   def. George Fox, 105-75; def. #4 Whitworth, 86-83 OT
#3   573   Christopher Newport   25-2   def. Marymount, 78-53; def. #20 Salisbury, 63-62
#4   518   Whitworth   23-4   def. Linfield, 76-64; LOST at #2 Whitman, 83-86 OT
#5   492   Washington U.   20-5   LOST to Chicago, 74-81
#6   489   UW-River Falls   24-3   def. UW-La Crosse, 68-55; def. UW-Oshkosh, 60-59
#7   476   Ramapo   25-2   def. Rowan, 110-101; def. #21 New Jersey City, 67-64
#8   458   Marietta   24-4   def. Heidelberg, 94-80 OT; def. Mount Union, 100-78; def. Baldwin Wallace, 83-74
#9   446   Middlebury   24-3   def. (n) Trinity (Conn.), 76-60; def. (n) T#35 Williams, 84-62
#10   400   Rochester   21-4   LOST at Emory, 62-63
#11   374   Benedictine   23-4   def. Wisconsin Lutheran, 72-63; def. Concordia (Wis.), 93-89 2nd
#12   349   Tufts   20-6   LOST to T#35 Williams, 65-81
#13   326   St. Norbert   19-5   LOST to Lake Forest, 70-73
#14   252   Denison   22-5   def. DePauw, 85-79; LOST to (n) Wooster, 77-87
#15   251   Neumann   25-2   def. Rosemont, 87-69; def. Gwynedd Mercy, 77-53
#16   240   Hanover   23-3   def. Transylvania, 78-76; def. Mount St. Joseph, 58-51
#17   207   Susquehanna   21-5   LOST at Moravian, 69-81
#18   204   Hope   21-6   def. Alma, 63-45; LOST to Calvin, 83-86
#19   158   UW-Whitewater   21-6   def. UW-Stout, 78-69; LOST at UW-Oshkosh, 61-75
#20   123   Salisbury   20-7   def. York (Pa.), 86-80 2OT; LOST at #3 Christopher Newport, 62-63
#21   86   New Jersey City   21-7   won at TCNJ, 77-69; LOST at #7 Ramapo, 64-67
#22   70   Ohio Wesleyan   21-7   def. Kenyon, 89-81; def. Wittenberg, 77-68; LOST to Wooster, 72-76
#23   67   Amherst   17-7   IDLE
#24   50   Augustana   19-8   LOST at Illinois Wesleyan, 77-107; def. (n) North Park, 86-70; LOST to North Central (Ill.), 64-69
#25   42   Lycoming   23-4   def. Lebanon Valley, 88-64; def. Albright, 76-62
Others receiving votes
Rank      Pts      Team   W-L      Results
#26   38   Swarthmore   22-5   def. Ursinus, 86-66; def. Dickinson, 68-64
#27   36   St. John Fisher   22-5   def. Nazareth, 76-69; def. Stevens, 80-69
#28   31   Endicott   22-6   def. Salve Regina, 110-64; def. Eastern Nazarene, 84-66; LOST at Nichols, 64-67
#29   28   Wesleyan   19-6   IDLE
#30   25   UW-Eau Claire   18-8   LOST to UW-La Crosse, 66-76
#31   21   MIT   21-6   def. (n) WPI, 63-61; won at #1 Babson, 67-62
#32   18   Guilford   23-5   def. (n) Hampden-Sydney, 63-53; def. (n) Virginia Wesleyan, 67-64; def. (n) Emory and Henry, 64-54
T#33   9   Albertus Magnus   23-4   def. Anna Maria, 92-67; def. Mount Ida, 107-68; def. Lasell, 101-83
T#33   9   Bethel   21-6   def. T#35 Carleton, 57-53; def. St. John's, 79-75
T#35   8   Carleton   18-9   def. Augsburg, 66-63; LOST at T#33 Bethel, 53-57
T#35   8   Williams   19-8   won at #12 Tufts, 81-65; LOST to (n) #9 Middlebury, 62-84
T#37   4   Brockport   19-7   LOST to (n) SUNY Oneonta, 72-85
T#37   4   Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   22-4   won at Occidental, 70-66 OT; def. Pomona-Pitzer, 70-64; def. Cal Lutheran, 77-71
T#37   4   Staten Island   21-6   def. (n) Baruch, 71-54; won at CCNY, 77-66
T#40   2   Scranton   21-6   def. Catholic, 75-68; def. Moravian, 68-63
T#40   2   St. Thomas   19-7   LOST to St. John's, 78-80
T#42   1   Hardin-Simmons   22-6   def. (n) East Texas Baptist, 89-80; def. (n) Texas-Dallas, 76-61; won at LeTourneau, 104-92
T#42   1   Ripon   20-5   def. (n) Cornell, 80-79; def. (n) Lake Forest, 81-72
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 12:30:09 PM
can tonight be possibly the game of the year? Rowan host messiah. i will absolutely be attending.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 15, 2017, 01:18:57 PM
https://herosports.com/rankings/college-d3-mens-soccer

For whatever it's worth...
1   Chicago ( 5-0)
2   Calvin ( 5-0)
3   Oneonta St ( 4-0)
4   John Carroll ( 5-0)
5   Messiah ( 4-1)
6   Lycoming ( 6-0)
7   Trinity (TX) ( 5-0)
8   Amherst ( 1-0)
9   Gettysburg ( 4-0)
10   Rutgers-Newark ( 5-0)
11   Johns Hopkins ( 5-0)
12   Puget Sound ( 2-1)
13   North Park ( 3-1)
14   Haverford ( 4-0-1)
15   Wartburg ( 3-0-1)
16   Rowan ( 5-1)
17   Skidmore ( 2-0-1)
18   Carnegie Mellon ( 3-1)
19   Oberlin ( 3-1-1)
20   Oswego St ( 4-0-1)
21   Geneva ( 4-0)
22   Kenyon ( 4-1-1)
23   Oglethorpe ( 4-1)
24   Springfield ( 4-0)
25   WashU ( 3-0-1)
26   Drew ( 5-0-1)
27   Transylvania ( 5-0)
28   Mary Hardin-Baylor ( 4-1)
29   St. Joseph's (ME) ( 4-0)
30   Williams ( 2-0)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:22:51 PM
That poll has Tufts at #58...not entirely accurate  ???
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 15, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:22:51 PM
That poll has Tufts at #58...not entirely accurate  ???

I think this is just a mathematical calculation ...not a poll.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:31:09 PM
https://www.masseyratings.com/csoc/ncaa-d3/ratings


Massey Ratings

Team   Record      

1. Chicago-5-0
2. Amherst-1-0
3. Tufts-3-0
4. Calvin-5-0
5. Messiah-4-1
6. Trinity TX-5-0
7. Lycoming-6-0
8. SUNY Oneonta-4-0
9. John Carroll-5-0
10. Haverford-4-0-1
11. Williams-2-0
12. Johns Hopkins-5-0
13. Scranton-5-0
14. Kenyon-4-1-1
15. Rutgers-Newark-5-0
16. Wash & Lee-4-0-1
17. Rowan-5-1
18. Carnegie Mellon-3-1
19. CT College-3-0   
20. Lynchburg3-1-1   
21. Cortland St-5-1   
22. Brandeis-3-1
23. Washington MO-3-0-1
24. Springfield-4-0   
25. MA Boston-2-0-2

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:32:57 PM
Quote from: rudy on September 15, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:22:51 PM
That poll has Tufts at #58...not entirely accurate  ???

I think this is just a mathematical calculation ...not a poll.

Yes it uses the Bennett Ranking System...Massey Ratings are also statistically based and Tufts is #3 in that poll...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:33:54 PM
Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 15, 2017, 09:39:14 AM
would anyone volunteer to do a "How They Fared" of the d3soccer top 25? They do something similar on the Basketball board; of course I am not volunteering myself.

This is what the basketball one looks like:

How They Fared (Complete) -- final report for 2016-17

Top 25
Rank      Pts      Team   W-L      Results
#1   615   Babson   25-2   def. Springfield, 67-62; LOST to #31 MIT, 62-65
#2   610   Whitman   27-0   def. George Fox, 105-75; def. #4 Whitworth, 86-83 OT
#3   573   Christopher Newport   25-2   def. Marymount, 78-53; def. #20 Salisbury, 63-62
#4   518   Whitworth   23-4   def. Linfield, 76-64; LOST at #2 Whitman, 83-86 OT
#5   492   Washington U.   20-5   LOST to Chicago, 74-81
........cont.

This is a nice idea if someone stays on top of it each week.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 12:30:09 PM
can tonight be possibly the game of the year? Rowan host messiah. i will absolutely be attending.

Does Amherst face Tufts? Because if so then no this is not the game of the year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: oldonionbag on September 15, 2017, 02:11:40 PM
Amherst always faces Tufts. Usually a great clash, showcasing very different styles of play.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on September 15, 2017, 02:44:16 PM
Quote from: rudy on September 15, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 15, 2017, 01:22:51 PM
That poll has Tufts at #58...not entirely accurate  ???

I think this is just a mathematical calculation ...not a poll.

In taking a quick look at things, it makes me wonder what the criteria is for some of their calculations.  For example, I sorted on the Defense column to see which teams would be ranked highest defensively.  To my surprise, the two top ranked teams defensively are Colorado College (2-1-1) and Dallas (1-1-1).  Colorado has allowed one goal and Dallas has allowed 3 goals, yet there are a number of teams (Marietta, Randolph-Macon, Tufts, St. Joseph's of Maine among others) that have not yet given up any goals on the season. 

It seems to me like some of their calculations are screwy just from looking at things on the surface. Does anyone have any in-depth knowledge of how these calculations are made up?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on September 15, 2017, 02:50:28 PM
Here's a link with some of the details about the Bennett Rankings.
https://herosports.com/news/ncaa-womens-soccer/why-bennettrank-is-the-best-college-soccer-ranking-system

One thing that stood out to me was when they say "We really need 5+ games as a minimum data set to prime our mathematical models correctly, and we need to have all teams in the division playing at least a few games within their division." This makes sense to me that early season might skew some of the calculations, but as the season goes along the numbers will make more sense.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 15, 2017, 07:54:05 PM
Messiah up 1-0 @ HT vs. Rowan.  Messiah has lots of time in the midfield and as usual, they seem content to simply possess the ball. Rowan seems to be sitting back and trying unsuccessfully to counter. I would think Rowan may think about playing some high pressure in the 2H.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 09:22:25 PM
messiah 3-2 in 2OT #6 for rowan missed a Pk then gave the ball up for the game winner. great game though
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on September 15, 2017, 09:27:57 PM
Video wasn't working.for.me
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 09:35:59 PM
sad part is rowan was giving it to them and messiah was worried. messiah refuses to play balls in behind and just let themselves get pressed and rowan capitalized. rowan with doherty awake is an entire different team than doherty quiet on the field. first half and second half were a different rowan teams. messiah has definitely lost that elienstatus and just play good soccer. #6 for amessiah best player on the field. rarely turned the ball over and controlled the game. probably best midfielder in the nation right now.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 15, 2017, 10:00:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 09:35:59 PM
sad part is rowan was giving it to them and messiah was worried. messiah refuses to play balls in behind and just let themselves get pressed and rowan capitalized. rowan with doherty awake is an entire different team than doherty quiet on the field. first half and second half were a different rowan teams. messiah has definitely lost that elienstatus and just play good soccer. #6 for amessiah best player on the field. rarely turned the ball over and controlled the game. probably best midfielder in the nation right now.

I agree - 2nd half was a different story.  As I predicted at HT, Rowan came out pressing. Made a big difference. And Messiah, like so many possession teams, simply refuses to shoot the damn ball.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 15, 2017, 10:16:46 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 15, 2017, 10:00:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 09:35:59 PM
sad part is rowan was giving it to them and messiah was worried. messiah refuses to play balls in behind and just let themselves get pressed and rowan capitalized. rowan with doherty awake is an entire different team than doherty quiet on the field. first half and second half were a different rowan teams. messiah has definitely lost that elienstatus and just play good soccer. #6 for amessiah best player on the field. rarely turned the ball over and controlled the game. probably best midfielder in the nation right now.

I agree - 2nd half was a different story.  As I predicted at HT, Rowan came out pressing. Made a big difference. And Messiah, like so many possession teams, simply refuses to shoot the damn ball.

Messiah outshot Rowan 16-14. So i guess Rowan also refuses to shoot the ball? I don't understand the criticism. Rowan is a top 20 team..regardless of polls. Going on the road to play them should be a tough game. Messiah dominated first half and Rowan had the better play in second half. Both goals for Rowan were not in the run of play...a free kick goal and a throw in with nifty flick and goal. Any team would be challenged to go beat Rowan on their home turf. I'd give both teams credit for giving it all they had and expect both teams to be in the tournament when all is said and done.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on September 15, 2017, 10:45:41 PM
I'm curious...how does anyone have a crystal ball and know that a specific player...let alone a specific team...is the "best in the nation" among over 200 teams and over 5,000 D3 players?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: truenorth on September 15, 2017, 10:45:41 PM
I'm curious...how does anyone have a crystal ball and know that a specific player...let alone a specific team...is the "best in the nation" among over 200 teams and over 5,000 D3 players?


playing your whole life and coaching and competing at the highest level of D3 soccer and watching my fair share of D3 games this year (so far) i think i can accurately pick a player to be one of the best players in the nation at his position. he's a division one athlete and soccer player. it's that simple.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 11:02:08 PM
Quote from: rudy on September 15, 2017, 10:16:46 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 15, 2017, 10:00:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 09:35:59 PM
sad part is rowan was giving it to them and messiah was worried. messiah refuses to play balls in behind and just let themselves get pressed and rowan capitalized. rowan with doherty awake is an entire different team than doherty quiet on the field. first half and second half were a different rowan teams. messiah has definitely lost that elienstatus and just play good soccer. #6 for amessiah best player on the field. rarely turned the ball over and controlled the game. probably best midfielder in the nation right now.



I agree - 2nd half was a different story.  As I predicted at HT, Rowan came out pressing. Made a big difference. And Messiah, like so many possession teams, simply refuses to shoot the damn ball.

Messiah outshot Rowan 16-14. So i guess Rowan also refuses to shoot the ball? I don't understand the criticism. Rowan is a top 20 team..regardless of polls. Going on the road to play them should be a tough game. Messiah dominated first half and Rowan had the better play in second half. Both goals for Rowan were not in the run of play...a free kick goal and a throw in with nifty flick and goal. Any team would be challenged to go beat Rowan on their home turf. I'd give both teams credit for giving it all they had and expect both teams to be in the tournament when all is said and done.

i don't think we were really criticizing anyone of the teams. just giving our honest outlook from being at the game. they are both top 10 teams(my crystal ball just told me). messiah just doesn't take many risks which is fine but they let rowan press them in the second half which put them
on their heels. i wouldn't be surprised if this was a sweet 16 elite 8 matchup
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 15, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
I'm shocked Messiah had 16 shots, but if that's the case, they should have had 30.  Way too many times they were in the box and tried to play one extra pass.  Too much ticky tack inside the 18. Their left wing or MF (#11 maybe?) had several opportunities to shoot but frequently turned it around to restart.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 15, 2017, 11:34:29 PM
Trinity (TX) record home winning streak comes to a shocking end tonight as they lose an OT tilt to the University of Dallas, 3-2. Chima Ogueri had a brace and scored the winner on a breakaway.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 15, 2017, 11:35:24 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: truenorth on September 15, 2017, 10:45:41 PM
I'm curious...how does anyone have a crystal ball and know that a specific player...let alone a specific team...is the "best in the nation" among over 200 teams and over 5,000 D3 players?


playing your whole life and coaching and competing at the highest level of D3 soccer and watching my fair share of D3 games this year (so far) i think i can accurately pick a player to be one of the best players in the nation at his position. he's a division one athlete and soccer player. it's that simple.

The player in question, JR MF Samuel Ruiz Plaza, is indeed the most highly skilled Falcon on this year's roster. I can't say whether he was the best player on the field today, since I was unable to get the stream to work at all. However, in the games I did see this year he has been the dominant player, and last year (on those rare occasions when he played healthy) he was often the dominant player, though on several occasions it was D3 POY Jacob Bender, who was IMO perhaps the greatest all-around player in Falcon history. Plaza is also a two-way player. Last year vs Etown he marked Gilbert Waso, who is probably the most dangerous player in the region, and pretty much took Waso out of the game.

And yes, Plaza is a D1 level player, though not the only one on the roster. He was a regional HS AA and All-Midwest as well. He doesn't have the size to be target or the speed to be a winger, but his ball skills are high level and his motor also. The Falcon most like him in recent years is Brian Ramirez, who might have been the best overall player on the most recent great Falcon teams. Ramirez was more dangerous on free kicks, but otherwise they are about even. Ramirez has been playing professionally in Sweden and Guatemala: https://twitter.com/bxila



Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 11:39:23 PM
Quote from: Falconer on September 15, 2017, 11:35:24 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: truenorth on September 15, 2017, 10:45:41 PM
I'm curious...how does anyone have a crystal ball and know that a specific player...let alone a specific team...is the "best in the nation" among over 200 teams and over 5,000 D3 players?


playing your whole life and coaching and competing at the highest level of D3 soccer and watching my fair share of D3 games this year (so far) i think i can accurately pick a player to be one of the best players in the nation at his position. he's a division one athlete and soccer player. it's that simple.

The player in question, JR MF Samuel Ruiz Plaza, is indeed the most highly skilled Falcon on this year's roster. I can't say whether he was the best player on the field today, since I was unable to get the stream to work at all. However, in the games I did see this year he has been the dominant player, and last year (on those rare occasions when he played healthy) he was often the dominant player, though on several occasions it was D3 POY Jacob Bender, who was IMO perhaps the greatest all-around player in Falcon history. Plaza is also a two-way player. Last year vs Etown he marked Gilbert Waso, who is probably the most dangerous player in the region, and pretty much took Waso out of the game.

And yes, Plaza is a D1 level player, though not the only one on the roster. He was a regional HS AA and All-Midwest as well. He doesn't have the size to be target or the speed to be a winger, but his ball skills are high level and his motor also. The Falcon most like him in recent years is Brian Ramirez, who might have been the best overall player on the most recent great Falcon teams. Ramirez was more dangerous on free kicks, but otherwise they are about even. Ramirez has been playing professionally in Sweden and Guatemala: https://twitter.com/bxila

couldn't have said it any better. i know talent when i see it and that kid is legit
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 15, 2017, 11:43:27 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 15, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
I'm shocked Messiah had 16 shots, but if that's the case, they should have had 30.  Way too many times they were in the box and tried to play one extra pass.  Too much ticky tack inside the 18. Their left wing or MF (#11 maybe?) had several opportunities to shoot but frequently turned it around to restart.

Since I didn't see the game, I can't comment on how they looked tonight. However, the tendency to over-pass is a core Falcon affliction, not just this year but in many other years as well. The shots not taken that I most often notice are open ones from just outside the box, not inside the box. Several players have the ability to bury those, but for some reason will look for someone else closer to the goal who might not be open. A frustrating thing to watch from the stands. Nothing bad can happen when you take those, so why not?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 11:58:14 PM
Quote from: Falconer on September 15, 2017, 11:43:27 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 15, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
I'm shocked Messiah had 16 shots, but if that's the case, they should have had 30.  Way too many times they were in the box and tried to play one extra pass.  Too much ticky tack inside the 18. Their left wing or MF (#11 maybe?) had several opportunities to shoot but frequently turned it around to restart.

Since I didn't see the game, I can't comment on how they looked tonight. However, the tendency to over-pass is a core Falcon affliction, not just this year but in many other years as well. The shots not taken that I most often notice are open ones from just outside the box, not inside the box. Several players have the ability to bury those, but for some reason will look for someone else closer to the goal who might not be open. A frustrating thing to watch from the stands. Nothing bad can happen when you take those, so why not?


Perfect example was when Ramirez took that shot in the 2013 final and it deflected off our defenders head and in. have to shoot whenever it's open
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 16, 2017, 12:54:37 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 15, 2017, 11:34:29 PM
Trinity (TX) record home winning streak comes to a shocking end tonight as they lose an OT tilt to the University of Dallas, 3-2. Chima Ogueri had a brace and scored the winner on a breakaway.


That's a Pool C berth gone. Didn't Dallas beat Trinity once a year or 2 ago and had a 1-0-0 RvR and snatched a Pool C out of the West. People were complaining that they got a Pool C with only 1 game v ranked.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 16, 2017, 08:14:21 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 15, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
I'm shocked Messiah had 16 shots, but if that's the case, they should have had 30.  Way too many times they were in the box and tried to play one extra pass.  Too much ticky tack inside the 18. Their left wing or MF (#11 maybe?) had several opportunities to shoot but frequently turned it around to restart.

Fair assessment. But I have seen many teams just take shots that have  very low percentage chance of scoring on so sometimes being patient and looking for a better shot is not a bad thing. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on September 16, 2017, 08:45:34 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 16, 2017, 12:54:37 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on September 15, 2017, 11:34:29 PM
Trinity (TX) record home winning streak comes to a shocking end tonight as they lose an OT tilt to the University of Dallas, 3-2. Chima Ogueri had a brace and scored the winner on a breakaway.


That's a Pool C berth gone. Didn't Dallas beat Trinity once a year or 2 ago and had a 1-0-0 RvR and snatched a Pool C out of the West. People were complaining that they got a Pool C with only 1 game v ranked.

They did defeat Trinity on their home turf two years ago but their body of work (8-8-2) didn't qualify them for a Pool C.   Colorado College in 2012 was the last SCAC team to be awarded a Pool C (despite losing in the second round of the conference championships) but they didn't defeat Trinity that season.

First home loss for Trinity since 2013, btw.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 16, 2017, 10:34:30 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 15, 2017, 09:35:59 PM
sad part is rowan was giving it to them and messiah was worried. messiah refuses to play balls in behind and just let themselves get pressed and rowan capitalized. rowan with doherty awake is an entire different team than doherty quiet on the field. first half and second half were a different rowan teams. messiah has definitely lost that elienstatus and just play good soccer. #6 for amessiah best player on the field. rarely turned the ball over and controlled the game. probably best midfielder in the nation right now.

IMO Messiah dominated the first half. Rowan dominated the second half. Overtime was neutral. #6 for Rowan blew the game with missing the PK but Rowan couldn't find a way to hold on for 5 more minutes at the end of the 2nd half and seal up a 2-1 victory. Instead they gave up an awful goal at the hands of the GK's awful mistake. Even then they still had chances to escape and win but the longer you let any Messiah team hang around or don't capitalize on your golden chances they will eventually punish you and Messiah did just that.

Both teams are very good and will be in NCAA's but both teams have some serious work to do if they want to be discussed as Final 4 contenders. Defensively they both are a train wreck and both teams goalies are the team's worst players.

Messiah has 2 shutouts in 6 games and give up an average of 1 goal per game (6 total). Rowan has 3 shutouts in 7 games and give up 1.29 goals per game (9 total).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 16, 2017, 02:30:12 PM
Kind of random, but while watching the Messiah game last night I wondered if any schools come close to Messiah and OWU in terms of brothers who have played for the programs.  That says a lot, although in case of Messiah at least some of that must be related to mission-based nature of the college.

Btw, on the game, for a team with national title aspirations that's a game Rowan can't lose.  While I would vote for the Falcons as the better, smoother soccer team, you just can't lose that one at home after taking the lead in very impressive fashion, giving up a bad late goal, and then blowing a PK in OT.  Especially with HOME FIELD...and a reminder that last year as a national title favorite could not handle the moment against Tufts on home field either.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 16, 2017, 02:36:33 PM
Another random observation while I'm hypomanic....I don't think he's even a soccer person, but has there ever been a better screen name than BillyRayJimBob?  Or maybe only us Southerners will appreciate that.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on September 16, 2017, 08:01:21 PM
Claudio Reyna like mistake in back by Camden and Newark rips a shot in upper 90..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 16, 2017, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 16, 2017, 08:01:21 PM
Claudio Reyna like mistake in back by Camden and Newark rips a shot in upper 90..

Aww.. let's not make that what Claudio Reyna is remembered for please. That guy carried the National Team through some lean times. We could use a few more like him now.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 16, 2017, 09:28:10 PM
Newark beats Camden for the first time since 2012. they will surely be relieved
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 16, 2017, 09:33:12 PM
a lot of upsets tonight. Middlebury over Amherst. Kenyon tied. Tufts ties. Calvin wins 2-0 and look like the most consistent team as of yet. also Corrland st over St lawrence is a pretty convincing W
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 18, 2017, 02:48:10 PM
MAF Top 10
1. Calvin (6-0-0)
2. Chicago (6-0-0)
3. Rutgers Newark (5-0-0)
4. Lycoming (7-0-0)
5. Tufts (4-0-1)
6. John Carroll (6-0-0)
7. Messiah (5-1-0)
8. Oneonta St. (4-0-1)
9. Hopkins (6-0-0)
10. W&L (5-0-1)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ryan Harmanis on September 19, 2017, 07:31:40 PM
How last week's Top 25 fared:

#1    Calvin (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   at Trine (3-1-1) * •   W 3-0
   Sep. 16   Hope (2-4-0) * •   W 2-0
         
#2    Tufts (4-0-1)      
   Sep. 16   Connecticut College (3-0-2) * •   T 0-0
   Sep. 17   Trinity (Conn.) (1-3-0) * •   W 2-0
         
#3    Chicago (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   at #25 Loras (4-2-0) •   W 3-0
   Sep. 16   at Aurora (5-3-0) •   W 6-0
         
#4    Trinity (Texas) (6-1-0)      
   Sep. 12   Schreiner (2-5-0) * •   W 2-0
   Sep. 15   University of Dallas (3-1-1) * •   L 2-3
   Sep. 17   Colorado College (3-2-1) * •   W 2-0
         
#5    Lycoming (7-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   Medaille (4-3-0) •   W 2-0
   Sep. 16   at #13 Scranton (5-1-0) •   W 3-1
         
#6    Rutgers-Newark (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 16   Rutgers-Camden (2-4-1) * •   W 2-0
         
#7    Amherst (1-1-0)      
   Sep. 16   Middlebury (4-1-0) * •   L 0-1
         
#8    Oneonta State (4-0-1)      
   Sep. 16   at Vassar (3-2-1) •   T 1-1
         
#9    John Carroll (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   at Case Western Reserve (3-2-1) •   W 1-0
   Sep. 16   Ohio Wesleyan (3-3-0) •   W 5-4
         
#10    Haverford (4-1-1)      
   Sep. 13   Stevens (4-3-0) •   W 1-0
   Sep. 16   at #14 Johns Hopkins (6-0-0) * •   L 0-2
         
#11    Kenyon (4-1-2)      
   Sep. 13   at Marietta (4-1-1) •   T 0-0
   Sep. 16   Thomas More (3-2-1) •   T 1-1
         
#12    Messiah (5-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   Dickinson (3-2-1) •   W 4-0
   Sep. 15   at #17 Rowan (6-2-0) •   W 3-2
         
#13    Scranton (5-1-0)      
   Sep. 12   at Misericordia (0-6-0) •   W 2-0
   Sep. 16   #5 Lycoming (7-0-0) •   L 1-3
         
#14    Johns Hopkins (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   York (Pa.) (2-3-1) •   W 4-1
   Sep. 16   #10 Haverford (4-1-1) * •   W 2-0
         
#15    Washington and Lee (5-0-1)      
   Sep. 12   at Southern Virginia (3-4-0) •   W 7-0
   Sep. 16   Capital (4-2-0) •   W 4-0
         
#16    St. Thomas (6-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   Saint Mary's (Minn.) (4-3-0) * •   W 2-1
   Sep. 16   at St. John's (1-3-1) * •   W 5-1
         
#17    Rowan (6-2-0)      
   Sep. 13   Hood (4-3-0) •   W 5-0
   Sep. 15   #12 Messiah (5-1-0) •   L 2-3
   Sep. 16   New Jersey City (4-2-1) * •   W 6-0
         
#18    Carnegie Mellon (4-1-0)      
   Sep. 15   Westminster (Pa.) (3-4-1) •   W 4-0
         
#19    Cortland State (6-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   Alfred (1-4-0) •   W 3-0
   Sep. 16   St. Lawrence (2-3-1) •   W 3-1
         
#20    Brandeis (4-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   WPI (4-2-0) •   W 2-1
   Sep. 16   Elms (0-5-0) •   W 6-0
         
#21    Gettysburg (5-0-0)      
   Sep. 16   at Washington College (1-5-0) * •   W 3-0
         
#22    Wartburg (3-1-1)      
   Sep. 17   Macalester (4-2-1) •   L 0-1
         
#23    Lynchburg (4-1-1)      
   Sep. 14   Mary Washington (4-1-1) •   L 1-2
   Sep. 17   at Oglethorpe (4-2-0) •   W 1-0
         
#24    Stockton (6-0-1)      
   Sep. 13   at Arcadia (4-1-1) •   T 0-0
   Sep. 16   Kean (3-2-1) * •   W 1-0
         
#25    Loras (4-2-0)      
   Sep. 13   #3 Chicago (6-0-0) •   L 0-3
   Sep. 17   Carthage (3-2-1) •   W 4-0
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on September 19, 2017, 09:38:01 PM
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on September 19, 2017, 07:31:40 PM
How last week's Top 25 fared:

#1    Calvin (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   at Trine (3-1-1) * •   W 3-0
   Sep. 16   Hope (2-4-0) * •   W 2-0
         
#2    Tufts (4-0-1)      
   Sep. 16   Connecticut College (3-0-2) * •   T 0-0
   Sep. 17   Trinity (Conn.) (1-3-0) * •   W 2-0
         
#3    Chicago (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   at #25 Loras (4-2-0) •   W 3-0
   Sep. 16   at Aurora (5-3-0) •   W 6-0
         
#4    Trinity (Texas) (6-1-0)      
   Sep. 12   Schreiner (2-5-0) * •   W 2-0
   Sep. 15   University of Dallas (3-1-1) * •   L 2-3
   Sep. 17   Colorado College (3-2-1) * •   W 2-0
         
#5    Lycoming (7-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   Medaille (4-3-0) •   W 2-0
   Sep. 16   at #13 Scranton (5-1-0) •   W 3-1
         
#6    Rutgers-Newark (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 16   Rutgers-Camden (2-4-1) * •   W 2-0
         
#7    Amherst (1-1-0)      
   Sep. 16   Middlebury (4-1-0) * •   L 0-1
         
#8    Oneonta State (4-0-1)      
   Sep. 16   at Vassar (3-2-1) •   T 1-1
         
#9    John Carroll (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   at Case Western Reserve (3-2-1) •   W 1-0
   Sep. 16   Ohio Wesleyan (3-3-0) •   W 5-4
         
#10    Haverford (4-1-1)      
   Sep. 13   Stevens (4-3-0) •   W 1-0
   Sep. 16   at #14 Johns Hopkins (6-0-0) * •   L 0-2
         
#11    Kenyon (4-1-2)      
   Sep. 13   at Marietta (4-1-1) •   T 0-0
   Sep. 16   Thomas More (3-2-1) •   T 1-1
         
#12    Messiah (5-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   Dickinson (3-2-1) •   W 4-0
   Sep. 15   at #17 Rowan (6-2-0) •   W 3-2
         
#13    Scranton (5-1-0)      
   Sep. 12   at Misericordia (0-6-0) •   W 2-0
   Sep. 16   #5 Lycoming (7-0-0) •   L 1-3
         
#14    Johns Hopkins (6-0-0)      
   Sep. 13   York (Pa.) (2-3-1) •   W 4-1
   Sep. 16   #10 Haverford (4-1-1) * •   W 2-0
         
#15    Washington and Lee (5-0-1)      
   Sep. 12   at Southern Virginia (3-4-0) •   W 7-0
   Sep. 16   Capital (4-2-0) •   W 4-0
         
#16    St. Thomas (6-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   Saint Mary's (Minn.) (4-3-0) * •   W 2-1
   Sep. 16   at St. John's (1-3-1) * •   W 5-1
         
#17    Rowan (6-2-0)      
   Sep. 13   Hood (4-3-0) •   W 5-0
   Sep. 15   #12 Messiah (5-1-0) •   L 2-3
   Sep. 16   New Jersey City (4-2-1) * •   W 6-0
         
#18    Carnegie Mellon (4-1-0)      
   Sep. 15   Westminster (Pa.) (3-4-1) •   W 4-0
         
#19    Cortland State (6-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   Alfred (1-4-0) •   W 3-0
   Sep. 16   St. Lawrence (2-3-1) •   W 3-1
         
#20    Brandeis (4-1-0)      
   Sep. 13   WPI (4-2-0) •   W 2-1
   Sep. 16   Elms (0-5-0) •   W 6-0
         
#21    Gettysburg (5-0-0)      
   Sep. 16   at Washington College (1-5-0) * •   W 3-0
         
#22    Wartburg (3-1-1)      
   Sep. 17   Macalester (4-2-1) •   L 0-1
         
#23    Lynchburg (4-1-1)      
   Sep. 14   Mary Washington (4-1-1) •   L 1-2
   Sep. 17   at Oglethorpe (4-2-0) •   W 1-0
         
#24    Stockton (6-0-1)      
   Sep. 13   at Arcadia (4-1-1) •   T 0-0
   Sep. 16   Kean (3-2-1) * •   W 1-0
         
#25    Loras (4-2-0)      
   Sep. 13   #3 Chicago (6-0-0) •   L 0-3
   Sep. 17   Carthage (3-2-1) •   W 4-0

Thanks for taking the time to do this!!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ryan Harmanis on September 19, 2017, 09:41:27 PM
Quote from: NEPAFAN on September 19, 2017, 09:38:01 PM
Thanks for taking the time to do this!!

Thanks, but the real credit goes to the top people at D3soccer.com.  I just copied/pasted what they'd already compiled.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2017, 08:10:29 AM
Big games around the nation today

#2 Chicago @ Wheaton (Ill.)
#9 Mesisah @ York
#15 Haverford @ #18 Scranton
F&M @ #19 Rowan
Leb Val @ #20 Gettysburg
Roger Williams @ Wheaton (Mass.)
Dickinson @ Mary Wash
Wartburg @ St. Olaf
Emory @ Maryville (Tenn.)
Rose-Hulman @ DePauw
Case Western @ Ohio Wesleyan
Loras @ Elmhurst


In bold are the top 3 games to tune into tonight (in my opinion)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on September 20, 2017, 08:40:31 AM
The Case at OWU game has huge implications for the Great Lakes Region. Both the teams are slightly on the outside looking in, and this game should clear things up. Prediction. 2-1 Case on a late winner.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 21, 2017, 01:02:41 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2017, 08:10:29 AM
Big games around the nation today

#2 Chicago @ Wheaton (Ill.)
#9 Mesisah @ York
#15 Haverford @ #18 Scranton
F&M @ #19 Rowan
Leb Val @ #20 Gettysburg
Roger Williams @ Wheaton (Mass.)
Dickinson @ Mary Wash
Wartburg @ St. Olaf
Emory @ Maryville (Tenn.)
Rose-Hulman @ DePauw
Case Western @ Ohio Wesleyan
Loras @ Elmhurst


In bold are the top 3 games to tune into tonight (in my opinion)

F&M downed 3-0. They are likely going to have to win conference playoffs to get NCAA tournament bid at the rate they are going.  Rowan didn't want to lose to another PA team at home...they must have been fired up for this game.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 22, 2017, 08:27:04 AM
Notable games happening this weekend (Friday-Sunday):


Friday:
#22 Brandeis @ #5 Tufts
#8 Oneonta St @ #14 Cortland St
Grove City @ #13 CMU

Saturday:
Elmhurst @ #2 Chicago
#3 Lycoming @ Case Western
#7 Hopkins @ #20 Gettysburg
F&M @ #15 Haverford
#16 Amherst @ Williams
Montclair @ RUC
Hobart @ Skidmore
Capital @ Thomas More
Etown @ Drew
CNU @ York
Rose-Hulman @ ONU
OWU @ Oberlin

Sunday:
#6 John Carroll @ #13 CMU
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on September 22, 2017, 08:34:38 AM
Montclair vs RUC for last place in the NJAC! Shocking!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 22, 2017, 09:58:20 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 22, 2017, 08:27:04 AM
Notable games happening this weekend (Friday-Sunday):


Friday:
#22 Brandeis @ #5 Tufts
#8 Oneonta St @ #14 Cortland St
Grove City @ #13 CMU

Saturday:
Elmhurst @ #2 Chicago
#3 Lycoming @ Case Western
#7 Hopkins @ #20 Gettysburg
F&M @ #15 Haverford
#16 Amherst @ Williams
Montclair @ RUC
Hobart @ Skidmore
Capital @ Thomas More
Etown @ Drew
CNU @ York
Rose-Hulman @ ONU
OWU @ Oberlin

Sunday:
#6 John Carroll @ #13 CMU

Friday:
#22 Brandeis @ #5 Tufts
#8 Oneonta St @ #14 Cortland St

Grove City @ #13 CMU

Saturday:
Elmhurst @ #2 Chicago
#3 Lycoming @ Case Western
#7 Hopkins @ #20 Gettysburg
F&M @ #15 Haverford
#16 Amherst @ Williams

Montclair @ RUC
Hobart @ Skidmore
Capital @ Thomas More
Etown @ Drew
CNU @ York
Rose-Hulman @ ONU
OWU @ Oberlin

Sunday:
#6 John Carroll @ #13 CMU

In bold are the games I feel are the must watch games of the weekend. As for the Mid-Atlantic region, huge games in the Centennial with JHU vs Getty and F&M vs Fords. Drew vs Etown is a big clash as well and Lyco on the road in non-conference action vs Case Western won't be an easy task. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 01:55:35 PM
#3/#4 ranked Lycoming down 1-0 at half at Case Western Reserve.  Possession has got to be 75% - 25% is favor of CWR.  Lycoming is about as straight an up and down team as I have seen in quite some time.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
Lycoming absolutely lays an egg at unranked Case Western Reserve with a a 1-0 loss.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 23, 2017, 04:21:48 PM
W&L takes down undefeated (though mostly untried) Randolph-Macon 3-2 at Macon. Just caught the last 10-12 minutes and even though all 5 goals came in the second half I didn't see any of them! Macon looked game though pretty direct. That could have just been chasing the last goal. I think they will do well in the ODAC though again W&L gave up an own goal. Second time this season.

W&L goes to Lynchburg Wednesday. That should be a pretty important game for ODAC tournament seedings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 23, 2017, 04:44:23 PM
Amherst also ties Williams. that type of schedule they play makes room for little error and this is two blemishes in a row. and they have Newark in a week
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on September 23, 2017, 05:28:09 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 23, 2017, 04:44:23 PM
Amherst also ties Williams. that type of schedule they play makes room for little error and this is two blemishes in a row. and they have Newark in a week

Amherst should get healthy against Pine Manor, although facing Tufts at home the day before hosting Newark could present a challenge.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on September 23, 2017, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 01:55:35 PM
#3/#4 ranked Lycoming down 1-0 at half at Case Western Reserve.  Possession has got to be 75% - 25% is favor of CWR.  Lycoming is about as straight an up and down team as I have seen in quite some time.

Lycoming had a red card 20 minutes into that game which probably skewed the possesion stats.  Lycoming are definitely more of a direct sort of team but that red has to be taken into account
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: UAA Insider on September 23, 2017, 07:47:53 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on September 23, 2017, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 01:55:35 PM
#3/#4 ranked Lycoming down 1-0 at half at Case Western Reserve.  Possession has got to be 75% - 25% is favor of CWR.  Lycoming is about as straight an up and down team as I have seen in quite some time.

Lycoming had a red card 20 minutes into that game which probably skewed the possesion stats.  Lycoming are definitely more of a direct sort of team but that red has to be taken into account

Their coach received the red.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on September 23, 2017, 08:32:01 PM
ahh, didn't see that.  Thanks for the clarification  :)   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 24, 2017, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 01:55:35 PM
#3/#4 ranked Lycoming down 1-0 at half at Case Western Reserve.  Possession has got to be 75% - 25% is favor of CWR.  Lycoming is about as straight an up and down team as I have seen in quite some time.

Not sure what game you were watching. I would say Case had the better of play for the first 15 minutes and then got the goal they deserved. Once that happened it seemed that Lycoming decided not to sit in and they had the better of play for the remainder of the game. Case may have had 2 or 3 decent chances the rest of the game after scoring compared to Lycoming having chance after chance. I would not consider this laying an egg by any means. Case is in a strong conference, was at home, and motivated for a big win. Overall from watching most of this game (switching back and forth to others yesterday online) I thought Lycoming was clearly the dominant team and got unlucky to not find the back of the net. Case is a solid team and did well defensively to hold on for the win. Great win for Case and a tough loss for Lycoming. But laying an egg and stating that they had 25% possession is just flat out false.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 24, 2017, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
Lycoming absolutely lays an egg at unranked Case Western Reserve with a a 1-0 loss.

Laying an egg? I wouldn't go that far. Stats favored Lycoming throughout and from MAF post seems like they were the better team and were unfortunate not to come away with a result. Keep in mind that Case Western is no pushover. They will have an opportunity to compete this year in the UAA and although I don't see them winning it, I would not be surprised if they finish top 3 in that conference.

What was the red card for? The box score shows a yellow and then a red at the same time Case Western scored. I would assume it had something to do with the goal?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on September 24, 2017, 11:55:44 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 24, 2017, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
Lycoming absolutely lays an egg at unranked Case Western Reserve with a a 1-0 loss.

Laying an egg? I wouldn't go that far. Stats favored Lycoming throughout and from MAF post seems like they were the better team and were unfortunate not to come away with a result. Keep in mind that Case Western is no pushover. They will have an opportunity to compete this year in the UAA and although I don't see them winning it, I would not be surprised if they finish top 3 in that conference.

What was the red card for? The box score shows a yellow and then a red at the same time Case Western scored. I would assume it had something to do with the goal?

I thought laid an egg refers to scoring no goals. A "0" is an egg.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2017, 08:04:15 AM
MAF Top 10
1. Calvin (8-0-0)
2. Chicago (8-0-0)
3. Rutgers Newark (9-0-0)
4. Tufts (5-0-1)
5. Hopkins (8-0-0)
6. Messiah (7-1-0)
7. John Carroll (6-0-1)
8. W&L (6-0-1)
9. Lycoming (7-1-0)
10. St. Thomas (7-1-0)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2017, 08:15:56 AM
Quote from: bestfancle on September 24, 2017, 11:55:44 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 24, 2017, 11:09:10 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
Lycoming absolutely lays an egg at unranked Case Western Reserve with a a 1-0 loss.

Laying an egg? I wouldn't go that far. Stats favored Lycoming throughout and from MAF post seems like they were the better team and were unfortunate not to come away with a result. Keep in mind that Case Western is no pushover. They will have an opportunity to compete this year in the UAA and although I don't see them winning it, I would not be surprised if they finish top 3 in that conference.

What was the red card for? The box score shows a yellow and then a red at the same time Case Western scored. I would assume it had something to do with the goal?

I thought laid an egg refers to scoring no goals. A "0" is an egg.

If that is what is meant by this then yes they 100% laid an egg!  ;D I can't speak for Shooter but I took this as hinting that they played poorly or got completely outplayed, both of which did not happen. Case dug deep and gutted out a solid win and they should receive praise for that. It may have saved the season for them. Still big games remaining in conference play.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2017, 10:06:06 AM
Games of the Week

Tuesday:
Case Western @ #17 Kenyon
NYU @ Drew

Wednesday:
#9 Messiah @ Etown
#11 W&L @ Lynchburg
#23 Stockton @ #19 Rowan
York @ Leb Val
Skidmore @ Williams
Thomas More @ Denison
Dickinson @ F&M
Capital @ OWU
Dubuque @ UW Platteville
Chapman @ Redlands
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 25, 2017, 10:42:20 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2017, 08:04:15 AM
MAF Top 10
1. Calvin (8-0-0)
2. Chicago (8-0-0)
3. Rutgers Newark (9-0-0)
4. Tufts (5-0-1)
5. Hopkins (8-0-0)
6. Messiah (7-1-0)
7. John Carroll (6-0-1)
8. W&L (6-0-1)
9. Lycoming (7-1-0)
10. St. Thomas (7-1-0)

I agree with pretty much all of these teams. May have the order a little different. Also look for Trinity (Tx), CMU, and Cortland St to all creep into the mix for top 10 discussion.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 25, 2017, 12:18:19 PM
I've watched a bunch of W&L games, as an alum, and I think you guys are high. They are a good team. No one can look past them. But they just aren't quite elite. Just like the last few years. I expect to see them win a game or two in the tournament if they stay healthy all season and earn a bid. But inside the top 10? The record may say yes, but the eyeball test for me says not quite. They were basically straight up, at home, with F&M. Probably should have won except for the own goal. Most seasons that would be a real good sign of top 10 status. I'm not so sure this season. I think they are as good as they've been, and when push has come to shove, they've been in that 15-25 range. Still seems about right.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 25, 2017, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 24, 2017, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 01:55:35 PM
#3/#4 ranked Lycoming down 1-0 at half at Case Western Reserve.  Possession has got to be 75% - 25% is favor of CWR.  Lycoming is about as straight an up and down team as I have seen in quite some time.

Not sure what game you were watching. I would say Case had the better of play for the first 15 minutes and then got the goal they deserved. Once that happened it seemed that Lycoming decided not to sit in and they had the better of play for the remainder of the game. Case may have had 2 or 3 decent chances the rest of the game after scoring compared to Lycoming having chance after chance. I would not consider this laying an egg by any means. Case is in a strong conference, was at home, and motivated for a big win. Overall from watching most of this game (switching back and forth to others yesterday online) I thought Lycoming was clearly the dominant team and got unlucky to not find the back of the net. Case is a solid team and did well defensively to hold on for the win. Great win for Case and a tough loss for Lycoming. But laying an egg and stating that they had 25% possession is just flat out false.

Any time a Top 4 ranked team in the nation loses to an unranked team (not even regionally ranked) with a .500 record, and further does it by putting up a "goose egg" (i.e. getting shut out), that IMO is laying an egg.  I could understand that not being the case if their opponent simply "parked the bus", but CWRU certainly did not do that.

As for my assessment of time of possession, I wasn't talking about shots, or being more dangerous, or number of chances, or the "better of play", or even who the better team was overall –  I was strictly talking  about the time of possession.  While the NUMBER of possessions was even between the two teams, in my assessment the TIME of possession was well in favor of CWRU.  Whenever Lycoming won the ball they VERY QUICKLY pushed it directly up field and frequently ended in a shot attempt without a goal – the result of which was... loss of possession.  CWRU conversely built from the back and connected passes through the midfield, and it didn't always result in a shot – but they had the ball for considerably longer periods of time.  So my assessment of time of possession was well in favor of CWRU.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 26, 2017, 06:58:28 AM
Quote from: jknezek on September 25, 2017, 12:18:19 PM
I've watched a bunch of W&L games, as an alum, and I think you guys are high. They are a good team. No one can look past them. But they just aren't quite elite. Just like the last few years. I expect to see them win a game or two in the tournament if they stay healthy all season and earn a bid. But inside the top 10? The record may say yes, but the eyeball test for me says not quite. They were basically straight up, at home, with F&M. Probably should have won except for the own goal. Most seasons that would be a real good sign of top 10 status. I'm not so sure this season. I think they are as good as they've been, and when push has come to shove, they've been in that 15-25 range. Still seems about right.

Went to the Capital game. I like to find pro's and con's in every result - my son's HS coach called me a "romantic" - he's not wrong - but my assessment of W&L based on this game and watching the F&M game online:
Your middies - #5,6 & 7 - are the best unit I've seen - but they turned off a bit to start the second half.  They won ALL 50/50 and second-ball challenges. Scoring again off a corner - set pieces accounting for 40% of goals - is a good thing.


They showed the skill, toughness and attitude needed to make a solid NCAA run.  Like all NCAA champs - got to bring it 6 straight games, and one mistake/turn-off can be the end.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 26, 2017, 08:41:06 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 25, 2017, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 24, 2017, 08:27:21 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 23, 2017, 01:55:35 PM
#3/#4 ranked Lycoming down 1-0 at half at Case Western Reserve.  Possession has got to be 75% - 25% is favor of CWR.  Lycoming is about as straight an up and down team as I have seen in quite some time.

Not sure what game you were watching. I would say Case had the better of play for the first 15 minutes and then got the goal they deserved. Once that happened it seemed that Lycoming decided not to sit in and they had the better of play for the remainder of the game. Case may have had 2 or 3 decent chances the rest of the game after scoring compared to Lycoming having chance after chance. I would not consider this laying an egg by any means. Case is in a strong conference, was at home, and motivated for a big win. Overall from watching most of this game (switching back and forth to others yesterday online) I thought Lycoming was clearly the dominant team and got unlucky to not find the back of the net. Case is a solid team and did well defensively to hold on for the win. Great win for Case and a tough loss for Lycoming. But laying an egg and stating that they had 25% possession is just flat out false.

Any time a Top 4 ranked team in the nation loses to an unranked team (not even regionally ranked) with a .500 record, and further does it by putting up a "goose egg" (i.e. getting shut out), that IMO is laying an egg.  I could understand that not being the case if their opponent simply "parked the bus", but CWRU certainly did not do that.

As for my assessment of time of possession, I wasn't talking about shots, or being more dangerous, or number of chances, or the "better of play", or even who the better team was overall –  I was strictly talking  about the time of possession.  While the NUMBER of possessions was even between the two teams, in my assessment the TIME of possession was well in favor of CWRU.  Whenever Lycoming won the ball they VERY QUICKLY pushed it directly up field and frequently ended in a shot attempt without a goal – the result of which was... loss of possession.  CWRU conversely built from the back and connected passes through the midfield, and it didn't always result in a shot – but they had the ball for considerably longer periods of time.  So my assessment of time of possession was well in favor of CWRU.

That is fair D3SW and I would only argue then that possession was tighter than 75/25. More like 55/45 in my opinion. The first 15-20 minutes it may have been 75/25 but after that it became much more even. As for possession I think both teams just have different styles and doesn't make one better or worse than the other. This goes back to the fun debates between Amherst and Messiah and both team's vastly different styles but similar success in winning games.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 26, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
For purposes of comparison with the rankings being released today, here are the current top 25 from the Massey Ratings and Hero Sports...

Massey:
1. Chicago
2. Calvin
3. Hopkins
4. Tufts
5. Messiah
6. John Carroll
7. Newark
8. CT College
9. CMU
10. W&L
11. Lycoming
12. Cortland St
13. Springfield
14. Rowan
15. Fords
16. Oneonta St
17. Trinity (Tx)
18. Lynchburg
19. Amherst
20. Brandeis
21. Middlebury
22. Wash U
23. Drew
24. Williams
25. Wesleyan (Ct)

Hero Sports:
1. Chicago
2. John Carroll
3. Calvin
4. CMU
5. Oneonta St
6. Hopkins
7. Messiah
8. Trinity (Tx)
9. Lycoming
10. W&L
11. CT College
12. Rowan
13. Newark
14. Drew
15. Springfield
16. Cortland St
17. North Park
18. Tufts
19. OWU
20. Fords
21. Texas Tyler
22. CNU
23. Kenyon
24. Skidmore
25. Mary Hardin-Baylor
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 26, 2017, 09:24:09 AM
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 26, 2017, 06:58:28 AM

Went to the Capital game. I like to find pro's and con's in every result - my son's HS coach called me a "romantic" - he's not wrong - but my assessment of W&L based on this game and watching the F&M game online:

       
  • First half of F&M they were on their heels, reacting it seemed to me.  I didn't understand the penetrating run that led to the shot and goal - someone needs to step.  An uncontested shot is not the GK's friend but getting inside the near post seemed a bit shaky.
  • Great start to the second half - much more energy and purpose. Two goals from corners - the second going directly in off the kick.  A third corner barely missing the same spot.
  • The OG was a heart-breaker - the only worse thing I saw this year was the JCU goal with one second left on Sunday.  I'm amazed CMU came out and played a strong OT.  While not the result they wanted, that OT is a "micro-moment" that tells you something about the character of a team.
  • First half vs Cap - total domination.  Stat sheet had two shots for Cap - I saw one. High press was effective.  Also - playing like a 4-2-4 - more like a 4-1-1-4: forced a team playing a 5 back to have their backs mark and chase runners (when they decided that was important to do . . .).  the top mid making diagonal runs across the field to the ball side, receiving - usually without a man on, and setting up shop on the top of the D.  Hit the woodwork couple times, keeper had to make some big saves, got the deserved PK.
  • Second half - there's where W&L needs to look at the video.  Cap finally played a bit - got the ball wide and down the wings.  They are one of the fastest teams I've seen and when they play to their strength they can cause defense fits.  I didn't think W&L's backs were particularly fast - not to say they are slow but relative to Cap's attackers they couldn't run with them. 6 times Cap got in behind the defense and sent 4 crosses on the ground, two in the air: one save, one muffed shot and four balls sent to Roanoke.  6 minutes into the second half the score could have been 3-1 Cap.
Your middies - #5,6 & 7 - are the best unit I've seen - but they turned off a bit to start the second half.  They won ALL 50/50 and second-ball challenges. Scoring again off a corner - set pieces accounting for 40% of goals - is a good thing.


They showed the skill, toughness and attitude needed to make a solid NCAA run.  Like all NCAA champs - got to bring it 6 straight games, and one mistake/turn-off can be the end.

This ties out with a lot of what I saw so thanks for the comments. Same against RMC this weekend. The Yellowjackets are a good team, they'll win a lot of games, but if the Generals are truly making for a Sweet 16/Elite 8 level, they should have done much better. A win is a win, and honestly saying W&L is a top 15-25 team is a massive compliment. It puts them inside what? The top 8% or 6% of D3 teams? But when I watch those Sweet 16, Elite 8, and Final 4 games, I see more speed, more killer instinct, especially off run of play, and usually a bit more depth.

W&L certainly has some great pieces. And Coach Singleton has taken a consistently good program and made it a nationally competitive program. I'm not complaining or knocking the coaches or athletes because they are a heck of a lot better than when I was nicely told after freshman year by Coach Pirhanian that I probably wasn't going to have the right stuff! So I have a lot of respect for the players and the team.

But, I just don't quite see the same quality I see in those final games, those real elite, National Championship if the ball rolls the right way, type teams. Not far off, but not quite there. I'm hopeful though, and very proud of the team, and happy to watch as much as I can!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 08:46:13 AM
i'm very curious about this, does anyone really think Stockton is a Top 25 team..?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on September 28, 2017, 10:23:46 AM
I watched the game last night and Rowan absolutely destroyed Stockton. In my opinion Stockton is NOT a top 25 team. They simply are not athletic enough to compete with the top teams. Their back line is not very strong and they lack a goal scorer. The pack it in and look to counter but the speedy winger that chased everything is average to good but definitely not a top player in the conference let alone the region and the country. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 28, 2017, 11:21:33 AM
Never bought Stockton being a Top 25 team.  Schedule was too weak to reward them with a spot in the Week 2 and 3 rankings coming off a .500 season in 2016.  Drew had similar early season success against a weak schedule (a 6-0 home win over Muhlenberg being the highlight), but had to wait until getting that 6-0 win over Elizabethtown to crack the Top 25 in Week 4.  That seemed a more reasonable wait-and-see approach given the strength of schedule.  Of course, once ranked in Week 2, Stockton wasn't going anywhere as log as they kept winning, and they even were given the benefit of the doubt (that I didn't think they had earned) in the Week 3 rankings after a tie with Arcadia.  Now coming off a 2-0-0 week that included a win over a previously unbeaten Moravian team (what to make of Moravian?  Weak schedule overall, scoreless tie against a struggling Montclair St side, respond to loss to Stockton with surprising 2-0 road win at Scranton) they climbed in the rankings.  I think it was pre-mature to rate Stockton that high, but the results in NJAC play were probably going to sort that out sooner or later, and the 0-3 loss to Rowan (Shots 5-16, SOG 1-9, corners 1-7) seems to support that they were overrated.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 28, 2017, 02:04:54 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Calvin (9-0-0)
2. Chicago (9-0-0)
3. Tufts (6-0-1)
4. Newark (11-0-0)
5. Hopkins (9-0-0)
6. Messiah (8-1-0)
7. Lycoming (9-1-0)
8. CMU (6-1-1)
9. Trinity (Tx) (8-1-0)
10. St. Thomas (8-1-0)
11. Rowan (9-2-0)
12. Cortland St. (8-1-0)
13. Springfield (7-0-0)
14. CT College (6-0-2)
15. Lynchburg (7-1-1)
-----------------------------------
RV: Wash U, Kenyon, Amherst, Brandeis, Drew, W&L, St. Joe's (Maine), Oneonta St, Haverford, Transylvania, Heidelberg
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on September 28, 2017, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 28, 2017, 02:04:54 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Calvin (9-0-0)
2. Chicago (9-0-0)
3. Tufts (6-0-1)
4. Newark (11-0-0)
5. Hopkins (9-0-0)
6. Messiah (8-1-0)
7. Lycoming (9-1-0)
8. CMU (6-1-1)
9. Trinity (Tx) (8-1-0)
10. St. Thomas (8-1-0)
11. Rowan (9-2-0)
12. Cortland St. (8-1-0)
13. Springfield (7-0-0)
14. CT College (6-0-2)
15. Lynchburg (7-1-1)
-----------------------------------
RV: Wash U, Kenyon, Amherst, Brandeis, Drew, W&L, St. Joe's (Maine), Oneonta St, Haverford, Transylvania, Heidelberg

No JCU  ??? What?

They go into CMU, while higher ranked, and get a tie. They have no losses and should be higher than CMU!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: DonkeyTouch on September 28, 2017, 02:19:00 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on September 28, 2017, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 28, 2017, 02:04:54 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings
1. Calvin (9-0-0)
2. Chicago (9-0-0)
3. Tufts (6-0-1)
4. Newark (11-0-0)
5. Hopkins (9-0-0)
6. Messiah (8-1-0)
7. Lycoming (9-1-0)
8. CMU (6-1-1)
9. Trinity (Tx) (8-1-0)
10. St. Thomas (8-1-0)
11. Rowan (9-2-0)
12. Cortland St. (8-1-0)
13. Springfield (7-0-0)
14. CT College (6-0-2)
15. Lynchburg (7-1-1)
-----------------------------------
RV: Wash U, Kenyon, Amherst, Brandeis, Drew, W&L, St. Joe's (Maine), Oneonta St, Haverford, Transylvania, Heidelberg

No JCU  ??? What?

They go into CMU, while higher ranked, and get a tie. They have no losses and should be higher than CMU!

I'm 100% certain that's just an oversight. CMU is one thing - but there is no way Shooter thinks that Kenyon, Transy, and Heidelberg deserve RV consideration and that JCU isn't among the top 5 Great Lakes teams.

Right Shooter? (he types... hopefully)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 28, 2017, 07:28:27 PM
 :o YES!!! They should be slotted after Hopkins and before Messiah my mistake! Definitely an oversight. Thanks for the catch.  :D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
As of right now, what are the top 5 conferences this year?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 29, 2017, 08:14:47 AM
Weekend Games to Watch

Saturday
#2 Chicago @ Rochester
Muhles @ #4 Hopkins
#5 Tufts @ #21 Amherst
Alvernia @ #7 Messiah
#8 Cortland St @ Plattsburgh St
#13 St. Thomas @ Macalester
#14 Fords @ Gettysburg
Brockport St @ #15 Oneonta St
#17 Wash U @ Emory
#19 Springfield @ Clark
#20 CT Coll @ Williams
#22 Drew @ Moravian
Denison @ #24 Kenyon
Fredonia St @ Buffalo St
Eastern @ Manhattanville
Rose-Hulman @ Transylvania
Thomas More @ Grove City
Otterbein @ Capital
Scranton @ Etown
Wooster @ OWU

Sunday
#3 Newark @ #21 Amherst
#23 Brandeis @ Case Western


In bold are the must see games of the weekend in my opinion!! Great weekend of soccer ahead as conference play starts to kick into full gear.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on September 29, 2017, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
As of right now, what are the top 5 conferences this year?

If I had to give it a crack, and I may be way off...

1. UAA
2. NJAC
3a. NESCAC
3b. CC
5. MACC

Just missed OAC and ODAC
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC11 on September 29, 2017, 01:53:39 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on September 29, 2017, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
As of right now, what are the top 5 conferences this year?

If I had to give it a crack, and I may be way off...

1. UAA
2. NJAC
3a. NESCAC
3b. CC
5. MACC

Just missed OAC and ODAC

Yes, with the understanding that the eventual National Champion will probably come from the NESCAC.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TwoLeftFeet on September 29, 2017, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
As of right now, what are the top 5 conferences this year?

For what it is worth, I suppose now is as good a time as any to look at the Massey conference ratings, given most of the games to date are inter-conference:

1. UAA
2. NESCAC
3. SUNY
4. NJAC
5. Cent.
6. OAC
7. LL
8. NEWMAC
9. MAC-C
10. Landmk

I find it odd that NESCAC has the highest win rate (0.883) and the highest SoS rating (1.8), yet places second to the UAA (Win 0.785 / SoS  1.15 ).  Is it because he is weighting individual results based on the opponent's ranking, and perhaps the UAA has higher quality wins, despite overall having a lesser track record in both wins and SoS?  Full rankings are here: https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2017&sub=11620&c=1 (https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=csoc2017&sub=11620&c=1)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on September 29, 2017, 03:49:51 PM
For comparison's sake, here are the top 10 conferences according to Bennett Rankings

1. UAA
2. NESCAC
3. Liberty
4. Ohio Athletic
5. Centennial
6. SUNYAC
7. CCIW
8. Northwest
9. WIAC
10. Landmark
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 29, 2017, 04:03:33 PM
Quote from: NESCAC11 on September 29, 2017, 01:53:39 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on September 29, 2017, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
As of right now, what are the top 5 conferences this year?

If I had to give it a crack, and I may be way off...

1. UAA
2. NJAC
3a. NESCAC
3b. CC
5. MACC

Just missed OAC and ODAC

Yes, with the understanding that the eventual National Champion will probably come from the NESCAC.

The National Champion will not come from the NESCAC.  NESCAC vs the field?  Count me in.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on September 29, 2017, 04:04:10 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on September 29, 2017, 03:49:51 PM
For comparison's sake, here are the top 10 conferences according to Bennett Rankings

1. UAA
2. NESCAC
3. Liberty
4. Ohio Athletic
5. Centennial
6. SUNYAC
7. CCIW
8. Northwest
9. WIAC
10. Landmark

I'm a fan of both the Liberty League and the Bennett Rankings, but the algorithm seems to be a little off so far this season.  I think the LL is "down" this year and would put it somewhere closer to 10 than 1 (like the Massey Ratings do) and would move the NJAC into the top 5 (as Massey also does!). 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on September 29, 2017, 07:44:31 PM
Quote from: paclassic89 on September 29, 2017, 03:49:51 PM
For comparison's sake, here are the top 10 conferences according to Bennett Rankings

1. UAA
2. NESCAC
3. Liberty
4. Ohio Athletic
5. Centennial
6. SUNYAC
7. CCIW
8. Northwest
9. WIAC
10. Landmark

There is NO way that the NJAC is not a ten 10 conference lol
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 30, 2017, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 29, 2017, 08:14:47 AM
Weekend Games to Watch

Saturday
#2 Chicago @ Rochester
Muhles @ #4 Hopkins
#5 Tufts @ #21 Amherst
Alvernia @ #7 Messiah
#8 Cortland St @ Plattsburgh St
#13 St. Thomas @ Macalester
#14 Fords @ Gettysburg
Brockport St @ #15 Oneonta St
#17 Wash U @ Emory
#19 Springfield @ Clark
#20 CT Coll @ Williams
#22 Drew @ Moravian
Denison @ #24 Kenyon
Fredonia St @ Buffalo St
Eastern @ Manhattanville
Rose-Hulman @ Transylvania
Thomas More @ Grove City
Otterbein @ Capital
Scranton @ Etown
Wooster @ OWU

Sunday
#3 Newark @ #21 Amherst
#23 Brandeis @ Case Western


In bold are the must see games of the weekend in my opinion!! Great weekend of soccer ahead as conference play starts to kick into full gear.


At half

Chicago  4
Rochester 0
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 30, 2017, 11:56:34 AM
Quote from: 4samuy on September 29, 2017, 04:03:33 PM
Quote from: NESCAC11 on September 29, 2017, 01:53:39 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on September 29, 2017, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on September 28, 2017, 10:15:31 PM
As of right now, what are the top 5 conferences this year?

If I had to give it a crack, and I may be way off...

1. UAA
2. NJAC
3a. NESCAC
3b. CC
5. MACC

Just missed OAC and ODAC

Yes, with the understanding that the eventual National Champion will probably come from the NESCAC.

The National Champion will not come from the NESCAC.  NESCAC vs the field?  Count me in.


Im down also on that bet...Not this year..Nescac is down
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 30, 2017, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: 4samuy on September 30, 2017, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 29, 2017, 08:14:47 AM
Weekend Games to Watch

Saturday
#2 Chicago @ Rochester
Muhles @ #4 Hopkins
#5 Tufts @ #21 Amherst
Alvernia @ #7 Messiah
#8 Cortland St @ Plattsburgh St
#13 St. Thomas @ Macalester
#14 Fords @ Gettysburg
Brockport St @ #15 Oneonta St
#17 Wash U @ Emory
#19 Springfield @ Clark
#20 CT Coll @ Williams
#22 Drew @ Moravian
Denison @ #24 Kenyon
Fredonia St @ Buffalo St
Eastern @ Manhattanville
Rose-Hulman @ Transylvania
Thomas More @ Grove City
Otterbein @ Capital
Scranton @ Etown
Wooster @ OWU

Sunday
#3 Newark @ #21 Amherst
#23 Brandeis @ Case Western


In bold are the must see games of the weekend in my opinion!! Great weekend of soccer ahead as conference play starts to kick into full gear.


At half

Chicago  4
Rochester 0


Wow...Is UR that bad or Chicago that good or both?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 30, 2017, 12:17:27 PM
Not sure. There is a technical error with the feed so haven't seen any of the play.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 30, 2017, 03:27:58 PM
Hopkins manages to score in the 2 OT on a very nice combination to get a wide open shot, thus beating the Muhls 1-0. I didn't see all of this one, walking away several times to get some chores done, so my opinion isn't worth much. Also, there was a strong wind that made scoring tougher on one end of the field. With those qualifications stated, Hopkins really didn't look as good as their ranking. This year Muhlenberg isn't a very good team, and they were able consistently to frustrate Hopkins while still being dangerous once in a while. In the latter part of the first half, both teams were playing a lot kickball.

On a different day, I imagine Hopkins would have looked quite a bit better. Definitely not impressive today.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 30, 2017, 03:59:20 PM
Falconer, come on now. Hopkins might have looked much better if they weren't playing a tippy top D1 outfit like Muhlenberg.  ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on October 01, 2017, 12:32:25 AM
I watched the entire Hopkins game on Saturday afternoon.  It was the first time I saw them this year and I was not very impressed with their play and the way they were not able to readily handle an unranked, sub-.500 team. I expected to see a lot more from the #4 ranked team in the nation.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 01, 2017, 08:02:02 PM
Shooter's Power Rankings (10/1)
1. Calvin (10-0-0)
2. Chicago (10-0-0)
3. John Carroll (9-0-1)
4. Hopkins (10-0-0)
5. Messiah (9-1-0)
6. Newark (12-1-0)
7. Tufts (7-1-1)
8. Lycoming (10-1-0)
9. CMU (7-1-1)
10. Trinity (Tx) (10-1-0)
11. St. Thomas (9-1-0)
12. Rowan (10-2-0)
13. Cortland St. (8-1-0)
14. Springfield (8-0-0)
15. Lynchburg (8-1-1)
-----------------------------------
RV: CT College, Kenyon, Amherst, Brandeis, Drew, St. Joe's (Maine), Oneonta St, CNU, Transylvania, Heidelberg
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:20:03 PM
Posting on another thread made me think of this...top programs last 10 years...

1) Messiah
2) Loras
3) Amherst
4) Calvin
5) Trinity? OWU? SLU? Wheaton (Ill)?

If was just last 5 years and not 10....Tufts certainly gets into the top 5....others in discussion Brandeis, Kenyon, F&M, maybe Haverford
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:22:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:20:03 PM
Posting on another thread made me think of this...top programs last 10 years...

1) Messiah
2) Loras
3) Amherst
4) Calvin
5) Trinity? OWU? SLU? Wheaton (Ill)?

If was just last 5 years and not 10....Tufts certainly gets into the top 5....others in discussion Brandeis, Kenyon, F&M, maybe Haverford

ADDENDUM:  Ah, forgot Oneonta State!  Slide them into #5 for past 10....and move the others to #6 with a question mark...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: HooksLeft on October 02, 2017, 01:00:56 AM
Hey all, been a long time since I've posted so I'd like to begin by saying thank you to everyone who keeps the chain going while the rest of us watch from the sidelines. Even though I'm now a handful of years out of school I still find this board to be a fantastic extension of the on-the-field excitement.

That being said, I have chosen to break my silence for an absolutely heart-breaking reason. As some of you may or may not know, today's game between Amherst and Rutgers-Newark was packed with drama but marred by racism that has become all too prevalent in today's society. Before I attempt to recap the specific events, I want to mention that I wasn't there and I was unable to stream the game. What I have to say is based on what I've heard from those in attendance. Therefore I apologize if I describe anything incorrectly. I welcome anyone with more information to let their voice be heard because I think this topic goes far beyond sports rivalries.

Fikayo Ajayi, a great player and even better person, was called a ni**** by one of the RUN players in the first few minutes of OT. His response, and justifiably so in my opinion, was to confront the RUN player with pointed language of his own (F bombs, etc.), which led to a scuffle and a yellow card for Fikayo and the deplorable RUN player. The referee did not hear the original insult from the RUN player but had heard the response from Fikayo, which led the RUN coach to suggest that Fikayo was the only one deserving of a yellow card. After everyone had been calmed down the game was allowed to continue and moments later Fikayo received a second yellow and was sent off. I'm not sure what the second offense was for but I imagine emotions were still running extremely high. Thankfully karma prevailed and soon Amherst was able to net the game winner, sending RUN home with nothing but a huge loss.

Now... I HOPE we can all agree that what the RUN player did was terrible... that should be a given. However, what I want to address are two things that bubbled to the surface following the game.
1) is that the referee later claimed to the Amherst coaching staff that he believed Fikayo had made up the insult. That it had never occurred. To this I have to say ARE YOU F***ING KIDDING ME. Why would someone make that up? Short answer - they wouldn't. And even if the referee is ignorant enough to believe that the insult was fabricated, WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT TO HIS COACH!!!! If you didn't hear it then I can understand that you would be hesitant to dish out punishment purely based on the opposing players reaction, but for me a ref suggesting that the player made it up is NEVER appropriate.
2) The RUN coach not only complained about his player receiving a yellow, but he was bold enough to suggest that the player would not have said such a thing because he was hispanic and went to church on a weekly basis. THIS. IS. ABSURD. Suggesting someone can't be racist because they are also a minority? That they are immune to accusations of racism because they worship a higher power on a weekly basis? This is ignorance at its finest. I understand that a coach is inclined to protect and defend his players but for me racism is where respectable coach's need to draw the line. If you are a collegiate soccer coach then your job should revolve around two things: winning as many soccer games as possible and grooming your student athletes to become the best person they can be. If todays events was any indication I would say that RUN is failing miserably at the latter.

I don't post this to start a debate and I don't plan to reply to any thread that stems from this post. All I would like to do is make sure that things like this do not go unnoticed. Everyone should be held accountable for their actions and I hope that the Rutgers-Newark players and staff are held accountable for theirs.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 02, 2017, 11:34:34 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:22:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:20:03 PM
Posting on another thread made me think of this...top programs last 10 years...

1) Messiah
2) Loras
3) Amherst
4) Calvin
5) Trinity? OWU? SLU? Wheaton (Ill)?

If was just last 5 years and not 10....Tufts certainly gets into the top 5....others in discussion Brandeis, Kenyon, F&M, maybe Haverford

ADDENDUM:  Ah, forgot Oneonta State!  Slide them into #5 for past 10....and move the others to #6 with a question mark...

I'd put Amherst #2, Calvin #3, Loras #4, Oneonta St #5.

There has not been a dominant team from the South Atlantic as we have witnessed various shifts in power with the growth of Newark and W&L, resurgence of Rowan; Camden, Montclair St, CNU probably the top 3 and most consistent over the last 10 years.  Can you justify placing one team from the SA in top 10, I'm not so certain, but there are three programs deserving of top 15-20.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 02, 2017, 11:51:49 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 02, 2017, 11:34:34 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:22:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 01, 2017, 11:20:03 PM
Posting on another thread made me think of this...top programs last 10 years...

1) Messiah
2) Loras
3) Amherst
4) Calvin
5) Trinity? OWU? SLU? Wheaton (Ill)?

If was just last 5 years and not 10....Tufts certainly gets into the top 5....others in discussion Brandeis, Kenyon, F&M, maybe Haverford

ADDENDUM:  Ah, forgot Oneonta State!  Slide them into #5 for past 10....and move the others to #6 with a question mark...

I'd put Amherst #2, Calvin #3, Loras #4, Oneonta St #5.

There has not been a dominant team from the South Atlantic as we have witnessed various shifts in power with the growth of Newark and W&L, resurgence of Rowan; Camden, Montclair St, CNU probably the top 3 and most consistent over the last 10 years.  Can you justify placing one team from the SA in top 10, I'm not so certain, but there are three programs deserving of top 15-20.

Understandable, but Final fours are so hard to make and without double-checking I think Loras has more than anyone else besides Messiah over past 10 years.

Amherst had seasons of being unbeaten or one loss while Calvin had a couple of relatively down years. 

I thought about Montclair and others from SA.  Can't see an argument for top 5-6, but maybe the back end of top 10 or like you said, several in the top 15-20 range.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on October 02, 2017, 12:59:41 PM
Does anyone know what happened at Stevens in recent years? I recall them being a top 20 team for a run of 10 years or so, and then in seems they dropped once Devin Rensing left.  Did he go coach somewhere else?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 02, 2017, 02:22:29 PM
Ah I would slide Tufts and Williams into the Top 5 the last 10 years. Tufts with 2 National Championships certainly trumps Haverford? with no Final 4's and Williams with 3 Final 4's in 09', 12' and 13' certainly trumps SLU's 0.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 02, 2017, 02:26:38 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on October 02, 2017, 12:59:41 PM
Does anyone know what happened at Stevens in recent years? I recall them being a top 20 team for a run of 10 years or so, and then in seems they dropped once Devin Rensing left.  Did he go coach somewhere else?

I think his brother is the Head Coach at Michigan State maybe he left to assist him but I remember him getting a D1 Head Coaching job to leave Stevens. He used to scrimmage his brother's MSU squad when at Stevens.. I think he got the Colgate job? or an Ivy? Patriot League?  Something like that
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 02, 2017, 03:40:08 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 02, 2017, 02:22:29 PM
Ah I would slide Tufts and Williams into the Top 5 the last 10 years. Tufts with 2 National Championships certainly trumps Haverford? with no Final 4's and Williams with 3 Final 4's in 09', 12' and 13' certainly trumps SLU's 0.

That's why I broke it down into 10 year and 5 year intervals. No question Tufts is #1 or at worst #2 on a 5 year interval.  Not sure about a 10 year interval when they did nothing for the first seven years of last decade.  Williams certainly is in the argument for the 10 year but not the 5.  I guess the 5th spot for the 10 year is very debatable, maybe between OWU, Williams, Oneonta.  I don't see any of those trumping Messiah, Loras, Amherst, Calvin...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on October 02, 2017, 03:49:03 PM
Lets stretch it to 20 years:
This means for an entire generation a program has been Balling...

How many teams on that list??

Messiah for sure.
Have been strong even before the won the first in 00.

Wheaton IL.

OWU
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ryan Harmanis on October 02, 2017, 09:32:48 PM
OWU is likely in that top 5 even for the last ten years.  From '07-'16, NCAAs every year, two Final Fours ('11/'14), including one title, an Elite Eight ('10), and two other years ('09/'13) with a good chunk of the year #1 in the polls (only to lose in the second round).

If we're going 20, I don't know enough about other programs, but OWU has five Final 4s and two titles.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 03, 2017, 11:19:40 AM
D3Soccer Poll
Through games of Sunday, October 1, 2017

#   School (1st Pl. Votes)   Record   Pts.   Prev.
1   Calvin (12)   10-0-0   984   1
2   Chicago (8)   10-0-0   976   2
3   Johns Hopkins   10-0-0   884   4
4   John Carroll   9-0-1   809   6
5   Messiah   9-1-0   807   7
6   Cortland State   10-1-0   772   8
7   Trinity (Texas)   10-1-0   698   9
8   Rutgers-Newark   12-1-0   680   3
9   Amherst   4-1-1   675   21
10   Tufts   7-1-1   646   5
11   Lycoming   10-1-0   624   10
12   Carnegie Mellon   7-1-1   549   12
13   Oneonta State   7-1-1   525   15
14   St. Thomas   9-1-0   491   13
15   Rowan   10-2-0   489   16
16   Springfield   8-0-0   413   19
17   Drew   10-0-1   390   22
18   Brandeis   7-2-0   389   23
19   Connecticut Col.   6-0-3   236   20
20   Heidelberg   8-0-0   213   25
21   Kenyon   7-2-2   206   24
22   Lynchburg   8-1-1   170   —
23   Gettysburg   7-2-0   113   —
24   Washington & Lee   6-2-1   94   11
25   Haverford   6-2-2   92   14
Dropped out: No. 17 Washington U., No. 18 Stockton

Receiving Votes: Washington U. 81, North Park 70, Transylvania 54, Christopher Newport 44, Simpson 42, Redlands 42, St. Joseph's (Maine) 34, Scranton 22, Stockton 12, Emory 10, Wartburg 10, Bowdoin 6, Williams 4, Cal Lutheran 4, Maryville (Tenn.) 2, Randolph-Macon 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 04, 2017, 08:30:46 PM
at the haverford vs camden game. haverford is not impressing me at all
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on October 04, 2017, 08:37:40 PM
Teams normally have a 4 year window to do serious damage.
I am not saying the window has closed yet on the Fords, but it is extremely difficult to stay on top for much past that4 year span because the window eventually closes.
Now there are a very few teams that manage to kick down the door and win a title before that window closes (Tufts comes to mind) and if you do then you are talking a decade or more of dominance.

I always felt like Calvin should have won a title over the last 6 years and unfortunately fell short.
I think the last 2-3 years the Fords were on a very serious mission in the Mid Atlantic and Nationally, but with the reemergence of Messiah and Lycoming looking legit it might be a tougher road for them the next few years.

They are now, in my opinion atleast, seen in the same light as the big boyz in the region.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 04, 2017, 08:57:39 PM
Overtime in camden 0-0. camden put the pressure on in the 2nd half
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on October 05, 2017, 02:46:17 PM
In the bigger picture beyond college soccer, I remain optimistic about the long-term future of the USMNT.  It's always two steps forward and one step back, but I believe the talent pool is growing and we'll become increasingly competitive.  Here's an article my son just sent me.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/10/5/16425234/usmnt-u17-world-cup-josh-sargent-tim-weah-andrew-carleton
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 06, 2017, 10:39:36 AM
Quote from: truenorth on October 05, 2017, 02:46:17 PM
In the bigger picture beyond college soccer, I remain optimistic about the long-term future of the USMNT.  It's always two steps forward and one step back, but I believe the talent pool is growing and we'll become increasingly competitive.  Here's an article my son just sent me.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/10/5/16425234/usmnt-u17-world-cup-josh-sargent-tim-weah-andrew-carleton

Great read -- thanks for sharing this, truenorth. I fully agree that the talent pool is growing, along with the writer's assertion that "formalizing" the process (and providing opportunities) for young players to makes it easier for talent to be identified and developed, particularly the belief that the "next Pulisic" will be identified in less time than the gap between Donovan and Pulisic.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on October 06, 2017, 02:48:39 PM
Quote from: Falconer on September 30, 2017, 03:27:58 PM
Hopkins manages to score in the 2 OT on a very nice combination to get a wide open shot, thus beating the Muhls 1-0. I didn't see all of this one, walking away several times to get some chores done, so my opinion isn't worth much. Also, there was a strong wind that made scoring tougher on one end of the field. With those qualifications stated, Hopkins really didn't look as good as their ranking. This year Muhlenberg isn't a very good team, and they were able consistently to frustrate Hopkins while still being dangerous once in a while. In the latter part of the first half, both teams were playing a lot kickball.

On a different day, I imagine Hopkins would have looked quite a bit better. Definitely not impressive today.

Saturday was alumni day, where the old farts form up teams and play on the turf the morning of the game. Second year they've done this formally. I had to miss it this year, but went last year and got a number of reports back from 'mates.

I'm torn on this brand of soccer they play. They employ it fairly successfully against decent teams (beat Haverford, lost to Messiah), but it's just very reliant on pretty much putting the other team in bunker mode and then methodically trying to break down the wall. That's just a) hard to watch (boo hoo) and b) asking for trouble against patient/well-coached teams.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 06, 2017, 10:29:04 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 06, 2017, 02:48:39 PM
Quote from: Falconer on September 30, 2017, 03:27:58 PM
Hopkins manages to score in the 2 OT on a very nice combination to get a wide open shot, thus beating the Muhls 1-0. I didn't see all of this one, walking away several times to get some chores done, so my opinion isn't worth much. Also, there was a strong wind that made scoring tougher on one end of the field. With those qualifications stated, Hopkins really didn't look as good as their ranking. This year Muhlenberg isn't a very good team, and they were able consistently to frustrate Hopkins while still being dangerous once in a while. In the latter part of the first half, both teams were playing a lot kickball.

On a different day, I imagine Hopkins would have looked quite a bit better. Definitely not impressive today.

Saturday was alumni day, where the old farts form up teams and play on the turf the morning of the game. Second year they've done this formally. I had to miss it this year, but went last year and got a number of reports back from 'mates.

I'm torn on this brand of soccer they play. They employ it fairly successfully against decent teams (beat Haverford, lost to Messiah), but it's just very reliant on pretty much putting the other team in bunker mode and then methodically trying to break down the wall. That's just a) hard to watch (boo hoo) and b) asking for trouble against patient/well-coached teams.


I have not seen Hopkins play this year but am intrigued after reading some of these posts..I am confused about this post though. How exactly would you want them to play? It is very difficult for any team to break down a well organized defense that has the ability to counter with talent like Messiah has. I guess my question is how would you rather they play against this? In the NCAA's and in their conference tournament they will be seeing this every game
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 07, 2017, 08:00:15 PM
Chicago loses 3-0 to Emory, and none of the goals came late in the game.

Did anyone see this coming?

Did anyone see the game who can offer comments?

This has to put Chicago out of the top five and move others up. Messiah and Hopkins should both leapfrog Chicago for the time being.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 07, 2017, 08:27:08 PM
What about 10-1-2 Buffalo State giving Cortland a 1-0 loss today and out shooting them. That gives Buff State a win over a regionally ranked team. the problem is their out of conference schedule looks really weak. They might need a result v Oneonta  or even a draw and will find themselves regionally ranked in 2 weeks with a good shot for a Pool C.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 08, 2017, 12:51:17 PM
Shooter's Top 15

1. Calvin (12-0-0)---They just keep cruising along. Can't see them dropping a game which may hurt them come NCAA's.
2. Messiah (11-1-0)---Hard not to slot the Falcons here. 2 tough ones remaining with Lyco & LVC back to back.
3. Newark (14-1-0)---4 of the last 5 will really show us how good this team is. For now they are top 5 worthy to me.
4. St. Thomas (11-1-0)---Not a lot of love for the Tommies but I think they are as good as anybody right now!
5. Tufts (8-1-1)---They are the defending champs. Can't leave them outside the top 5 with the current resume.
6. Chicago (11-1-0)---Some holes need patched up as Emory dismantled them over the weekend. Not a far drop but I am cautious.
7. Lycoming (12-1-0)---Similar to St. Thomas, Lyco is flying under the radar which is exactly what they like. 9 days until a dance with Messiah.
8. Amherst (5-1-2)---This team is a roller coaster right now. Always a tough out but need to see more consistent play.
9. Hopkins (11-1-1)---A rough week of results sees JHU trending the wrong way.
10. Oneonta St. (9-1-1)---Cortland's slip up allows the Red Dragons to fly forward.
11. Drew (12-0-1)---This might be the biggest surprise of the season. Look for Drew to run the table in conference play.
12. Rowan (12-2-0)---Hard to fault them for 2 top 10 losses but they won't jump into the top 10 anytime soon.
13. Cortland St. (11-2-0)---Still believe they are going to be Elite 8 good come NCAA's.
14. Brandeis (9-2-0)---Like a fine wine they get better with age, or in this case as the season goes on. Final 4 talent on this team!
15. Trinity Tx (11-1-0)---A few tight results make me question how good they are this year.

RV: Lynchburg (10-1-1), John Carroll (10-1-1), CT College (8-0-3), Springfield (10-0-0), Buffalo St (10-1-2), CNU (9-2-0), Emory (9-2-0), CMU (8-2-1), Kenyon (8-2-2), St. Joseph's (10-0-1)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 09, 2017, 08:59:29 AM
For comparison purposes as rankings will be released tomorrow afternoon.

Massey Top 15
1. Messiah
2. Tufts
3. Calvin
4. Springfield
5. Chicago
6. Lycoming
7. CT College
8. Rowan
9. Brandeis
10. John Carroll
11. Oneonta St
12. Hopkins
13. Lynchburg
14. Cortland St
15. Amherst
---------------------------
Drew, Newark, CMU, Trinity, Emory

Hero Sports Top 15
1. Messiah
2. Chicago
3. Calvin
4. Oneonta St
5. North Park
6. Lycoming
7. Tufts
8. Rowan
9. John Carroll
10. Trinity
11. Emory
12. Springfield
13. CMU
14. CT College
15. Hopkins
-----------------------
Drew, Brandeis, Cortland, Ogelthorpe, Gettysburg
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 09, 2017, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 08, 2017, 12:51:17 PM
Shooter's Top 15

1. Calvin (12-0-0)---They just keep cruising along. Can't see them dropping a game which may hurt them come NCAA's.
2. Messiah (11-1-0)---Hard not to slot the Falcons here. 2 tough ones remaining with Lyco & LVC back to back.
3. Newark (14-1-0)---4 of the last 5 will really show us how good this team is. For now they are top 5 worthy to me.
4. St. Thomas (11-1-0)---Not a lot of love for the Tommies but I think they are as good as anybody right now!
5. Tufts (8-1-1)---They are the defending champs. Can't leave them outside the top 5 with the current resume.
6. Chicago (11-1-0)---Some holes need patched up as Emory dismantled them over the weekend. Not a far drop but I am cautious.
7. Lycoming (12-1-0)---Similar to St. Thomas, Lyco is flying under the radar which is exactly what they like. 9 days until a dance with Messiah.
8. Amherst (5-1-2)---This team is a roller coaster right now. Always a tough out but need to see more consistent play.
9. Hopkins (11-1-1)---A rough week of results sees JHU trending the wrong way.
10. Oneonta St. (9-1-1)---Cortland's slip up allows the Red Dragons to fly forward.
11. Drew (12-0-1)---This might be the biggest surprise of the season. Look for Drew to run the table in conference play.
12. Rowan (12-2-0)---Hard to fault them for 2 top 10 losses but they won't jump into the top 10 anytime soon.
13. Cortland St. (11-2-0)---Still believe they are going to be Elite 8 good come NCAA's.
14. Brandeis (9-2-0)---Like a fine wine they get better with age, or in this case as the season goes on. Final 4 talent on this team!
15. Trinity Tx (11-1-0)---A few tight results make me question how good they are this year.

RV: Lynchburg (10-1-1), John Carroll (10-1-1), CT College (8-0-3), Springfield (10-0-0), Buffalo St (10-1-2), CNU (9-2-0), Emory (9-2-0), CMU (8-2-1), Kenyon (8-2-2), St. Joseph's (10-0-1)

Nice list Shooter. I won't have St. Thomas that high in my rankings but your logic makes sense.

MAF Power Rankings 10/9
1. Calvin
2. Messiah
3. Tufts
4. Chicago
5. Oneonta St
6. Amherst
7. Newark
8. Lycoming
9. Rowan
10. Trinity
11. St. Thomas
12. St. Joseph's
13. Heidelberg
14. Springfield
15. John Carroll
-----------------------
Next 10 (no order): Drew, Simpson, Transylvania, CT College, Dean, Hopkins, Brandeis, Kenyon, Lynchburg, Cortland St

RV: Gettysburg, Mary Wash, Buffalo St, Bowdoin, Johnson & Wales, North Park, Maryville, Mary-Hardin Baylor, CNU, CMU, Geneva, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein, St. Norbert, Emory, Redlands, Dickinson, Rochester, UMass-Boston, Williams, UW-Platteville   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: backyarddawg on October 09, 2017, 10:24:40 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 04, 2017, 08:57:39 PM
Overtime in camden 0-0. camden put the pressure on in the 2nd half

Not sure if we watched the same game but thought Camden got lucky to draw vs Haverford. They have not been great his year but to be 7-2-3 with their schedule and a lack of goal scoring shows they have some grit.  Not sure any team in the region has played their schedule.

vs Messiah, Neutral vs Etown, vs Steven's, @ Hopkins, @ Scranton, @ Getty, vs F&M, @ Muhl's, @ Camden, @ Drew, @ Dickinson
Many teams with this schedule would have more then 2 losses.

If they can find the back of the net, they will become dangerous late.  Big week for them @ Drew and @ WAC.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on October 10, 2017, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 06, 2017, 10:29:04 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 06, 2017, 02:48:39 PM
Quote from: Falconer on September 30, 2017, 03:27:58 PM
Hopkins manages to score in the 2 OT on a very nice combination to get a wide open shot, thus beating the Muhls 1-0. I didn't see all of this one, walking away several times to get some chores done, so my opinion isn't worth much. Also, there was a strong wind that made scoring tougher on one end of the field. With those qualifications stated, Hopkins really didn't look as good as their ranking. This year Muhlenberg isn't a very good team, and they were able consistently to frustrate Hopkins while still being dangerous once in a while. In the latter part of the first half, both teams were playing a lot kickball.

On a different day, I imagine Hopkins would have looked quite a bit better. Definitely not impressive today.

Saturday was alumni day, where the old farts form up teams and play on the turf the morning of the game. Second year they've done this formally. I had to miss it this year, but went last year and got a number of reports back from 'mates.

I'm torn on this brand of soccer they play. They employ it fairly successfully against decent teams (beat Haverford, lost to Messiah), but it's just very reliant on pretty much putting the other team in bunker mode and then methodically trying to break down the wall. That's just a) hard to watch (boo hoo) and b) asking for trouble against patient/well-coached teams.


I have not seen Hopkins play this year but am intrigued after reading some of these posts..I am confused about this post though. How exactly would you want them to play? It is very difficult for any team to break down a well organized defense that has the ability to counter with talent like Messiah has. I guess my question is how would you rather they play against this? In the NCAA's and in their conference tournament they will be seeing this every game

Well, you kind of have to watch it, but I'll take a stab:

It's TOO methodical. And by just having the 2 backs pass it 30-40 yards, you aren't allowing for the option of a center back cutting off the pass and testing the middle. By the time the ball is switched, a decent tandem of strikers is going to shut it down and funnel to the wings, or force the guy receiving the ball to cut inside to a waiting central middie.

They are basically trying to sneak past guarded gates, with those guards fully aware of what you are doing. And by the time they're over half-field, there's not enough movement off the ball in the middle and final third and they get snuffed out against a decently organized back line.

And they don't really shift tactics--it's not like they decided to play this way against a tough Messiah team. This is just what they do under this coach.

When you see a scoreless draw against a not very good Swat and barely eking out a 1-0 2OT win at home to Muhlenberg, you see the downside of this system. There's just not a lot of margin for error when you play a system that is so predictable.

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on October 10, 2017, 01:20:26 PM
D3Soccer.com Rankings:

#   School (1st Pl. Votes)   Record   Pts.   Prev.
1   Calvin (20)       12-0-0   1000   1
2   Messiah   11-1-0   942   5
3   Trinity (Texas)   12-1-0   824   7
4   Chicago   11-1-0   800   2
5   Tufts   8-1-1   768   10
6   Rutgers-Newark   14-1-0   758   8
7   Johns Hopkins   11-1-1   729   3
8   Lycoming   12-1-0   702   11
9   Amherst   5-1-2   624   9
10   John Carroll   10-1-1   592   4
11   Oneonta State   9-1-1   572   13
12   Cortland State   11-2-0   570   6
13   St. Thomas   12-1-0   514   14
14   Rowan   12-2-0   512   15
15   Brandeis   9-2-0   448   18
16   Springfield   10-0-0   430   16
17   Drew   12-0-1   418   17
18   Heidelberg   9-0-1   358   20
19   Connecticut Col.   8-0-3   346   19
20   Carnegie Mellon   8-2-1   317   12
21   Lynchburg   10-1-1   210   22
22   Kenyon   8-2-2   201   21
23   Emory   9-2-0   156   —
24   Gettysburg   9-2-0   150   23
25   North Park   10-1-0   80   —
Dropped out: No. 24 Washington and Lee, No. 25 Haverford

Receiving Votes: Transylvania 66, Simpson 44, Christopher Newport 38, Bowdoin 34, St. Joseph's (Maine) 22, Redlands 18, Haverford 10, Buffalo State 8, Mary Hardin-Baylor 4, Maryville (Tenn.) 4, University of Dallas 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 10, 2017, 06:23:28 PM
Among recent (last decade) prominent programs, has there been any player(s) who were an All-American at CB one year and then an AA as a striker the next?

Kenyon's Henry Myers has a chance and at minimum will be first team all conference and the favorite for NCAC POY.

Maybe Coach Brown knows a little more than me, after all ;).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 11, 2017, 08:13:16 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 10, 2017, 06:23:28 PM
Among recent (last decade) prominent programs, has there been any player(s) who were an All-American at CB one year and then an AA as a striker the next?

Kenyon's Henry Myers has a chance and at minimum will be first team all conference and the favorite for NCAC POY.

Maybe Coach Brown knows a little more than me, after all ;).

I have a near miss to offer. In 2015, Jacob Bender was third team Aa as a defender. Last year he was POY as a MF. He never played striker, but both of those seasons he was easily the most dangerous attacker on the team. In 2016 they would bring him forward into the box when goals were scarce.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 11, 2017, 09:33:41 AM
Quote from: Falconer on October 11, 2017, 08:13:16 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 10, 2017, 06:23:28 PM
Among recent (last decade) prominent programs, has there been any player(s) who were an All-American at CB one year and then an AA as a striker the next?

Kenyon's Henry Myers has a chance and at minimum will be first team all conference and the favorite for NCAC POY.

Maybe Coach Brown knows a little more than me, after all ;).

I have a near miss to offer. In 2015, Jacob Bender was third team Aa as a defender. Last year he was POY as a MF. He never played striker, but both of those seasons he was easily the most dangerous attacker on the team. In 2016 they would bring him forward into the box when goals were scarce.

That's a good one. 

Myers as a play-every-game frosh sub was an attacking mid. I am sure he was recruited as an attacking mid.  He was converted to CB his soph year because Justice, Carney, Ernst, Scott all graduated and there was still very strong returning offensive talent (Amolo, Glassman, Jeon, Lee, Eudy, etc).  He formed one of the nation's top CB combos over past two years with Lowry who is now a junior while Myers is a senior.  Of course as cruel fate would have it they were knocked out in the Elite 8 the last two years by Calvin and Tufts on very late CB blunders.  I was not a fan of moving Myers and Kenyon's losses (and draws) so far this year have happened mostly on balls splitting the CBs.  At any rate, I suppose a team's best player (or at least one of the best) can become a key piece in any attempted balancing acts.  In truth, Myers has played everywhere from CB to attacking mid to probably holding mid to striker at various points this season.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 11, 2017, 10:57:22 PM
Messiah heading to a consensus #1 ranking with Calvin being held to a draw by Hope.

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 11, 2017, 11:03:59 PM
Very strange year with this group of teams struggling and in some cases really struggling....Wheaton (Ill), SLU, Haverford, F&M, OWU, W&L, ONU (although ONU blew out wildly overrated Heidelberg tonight), Loras, Wheaton (MA), Babson, etc, etc
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 12, 2017, 12:10:30 PM
#1 Calvin gets the first blemish of the year thanks to Hope with a 1-1 road tie.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on October 12, 2017, 12:23:30 PM
I'd keep an eye on CNU.  They've quietly won 9 in a row after losing back-to-back games in early Sept to ranked W&L and Rowan (both by 1 goal) and are now 10-2. They sit 6th in the South Atlantic and seem to be flying under the radar.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 13, 2017, 01:24:57 PM
Some games to watch today!

Brandeis at UR
NYU at Emory
CT College at Endicott
CMU at Chicago
Buffalo St at Plattsburgh St
RIT at RPI
Ithaca at Skidmore
Hobart at Union
Case at Wash U
Wartburg at Luther
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 14, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
looking forward to Rowan vs Newark tonight! gotta say i'm pulling for the profs here
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 04:58:02 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 14, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
looking forward to Rowan vs Newark tonight! gotta say i'm pulling for the profs here

where is it being played? I might tune into that one..I like RUN stream if its at RUN
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on October 14, 2017, 05:18:10 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 04:58:02 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 14, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
looking forward to Rowan vs Newark tonight! gotta say i'm pulling for the profs here

where is it being played? I might tune into that one..I like RUN stream if its at RUN

Looks like the game is at Rowan.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 05:28:40 PM
Ok thanks..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 14, 2017, 07:53:18 PM
this rowan vs run game isn't very entertaining. was expecting much better soccer
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 08:01:50 PM
Just uned in..looks like 0-0 at the Half..will check out the 2nd Half
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 14, 2017, 08:05:18 PM
doherty missed a point blank shot and newark had a few chances. pretty even both teams hesitant to really open play
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 08:17:13 PM
Newark moving the ball pretty well until they get into the final 3rd where Rowan has a size and athleticism advantage
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 08:19:28 PM
Also, Rowan looks to be sitting compact defensively with numbers and only willing to attack with 4 or 5.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 14, 2017, 08:32:40 PM
yeah it's the same thing going back and worth. if anyone is going to score it will be rowan
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 08:44:30 PM
I agree..while RUN has skill I really like rowan's athleticism, size and skill BUT why don't they take more chances and send guys forward? They are worried about RUN on the counter and yes RUN has the skill to be good on the counter but I just think if the rowan coach had more guts and let his boys loose they would get a goal or 2.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 09:00:36 PM
RUN at Rowan 0-0 Heading to OT...Not sure if there is a game winner in this game unless the game starts to get stretched and either team decides they want to go out and win this thing. If I was playing RUN I would press the crap out of their backs and take chances and force giveaways that would give my team numerous scoring chances. It's interesting because if these two teams were not playing so cautiously they both could score a ton of goals.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 14, 2017, 09:14:05 PM
Rowan gets the game winner as they defeat RUN 1-0. #9 with the goal and from i saw in the 2nd half and OT he had blazing fast speed and nice skill..Kid is a legit player. Good win for Rowan as they will be hosting in the NCAA's for at least the 1st/2nd Round. I thought RUN were actually pretty disciplined as I was expecting an undisciplined skillful bunch. They have skill but lack size and their GK would scare me. Rowan was winning everything in the air and come November that will hurt RUN IMO.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on October 15, 2017, 12:17:50 AM
I agree. Rowan was able to shut down RUN all American Foward. They took over in the second half. #9 is a transfer from Montclair that had 11 goals as a freshman for them 2 years ago. Now he's at Rowan as a sophomore and is a total stud. Rowan added 6 new starters to the team that went 17-3-1 and graduated only 2 players. Their early season losses were to top 10 teams. They definitely have momentum after the big win tonight.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 07:36:27 PM
rowan spent the off-season recruiting the NJACs best players. stole #9 from Montclair. stole #10 Ryan campbell from Ramapo as well as another ramapo player. not saying it's a bad thing but they took care of business last off season. rowan has the talent to make a run as long as they are playing at their home turf. home field advantage is HUGE is November. nothing is better than playing for your fans and school at a NCAA sanctioned event.  Rowan is more than likely going to meet Newark in the Finals of NJAC conference tournament so we will see. best of luck to both teams
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on October 15, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Sounds like Rowan is your typically academically oriented D3 school... ::)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 07:52:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 07:36:27 PM
rowan spent the off-season recruiting the NJACs best players. stole #9 from Montclair. stole #10 Ryan campbell from Ramapo as well as another ramapo player. not saying it's a bad thing but they took care of business last off season. rowan has the talent to make a run as long as they are playing at their home turf. home field advantage is HUGE is November. nothing is better than playing for your fans and school at a NCAA sanctioned event.  Rowan is more than likely going to meet Newark in the Finals of NJAC conference tournament so we will see. best of luck to both teams

Rowan has exactly the set-up you described last year....home field all the way to the Final Four.  They could not beat Tufts on home field in the 2nd round.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on October 15, 2017, 09:39:13 PM
Rowan has turned from a teaching school from its inception to an engineering school with the change from Glassboro State to Rowan. The cumulative GPA of the team is above 3.0!

The Rowan University men's and women's soccer teams received the United Soccer Coaches Team Academic Award for the 2016-17 academic year. The recipients were announced on Thursday.

The Profs were one of just 195 programs across all divisions to earn the award in both genders. A total of 813 teams (282 men, 531 women) were honored for posting a team grade point average (GPA) of 3.0 or higher.

As for Tufts last year! Rowan didn't beat them obviously, but they only graduated one starter. Rowan is still a year away from having the Coaching staffs first recruiting class are seniors. That class has two sophomore all-Americans!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 10:12:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 07:52:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 07:36:27 PM
rowan spent the off-season recruiting the NJACs best players. stole #9 from Montclair. stole #10 Ryan campbell from Ramapo as well as another ramapo player. not saying it's a bad thing but they took care of business last off season. rowan has the talent to make a run as long as they are playing at their home turf. home field advantage is HUGE is November. nothing is better than playing for your fans and school at a NCAA sanctioned event.  Rowan is more than likely going to meet Newark in the Finals of NJAC conference tournament so we will see. best of luck to both teams

Rowan has exactly the set-up you described last year....home field all the way to the Final Four.  They could not beat Tufts on home field in the 2nd round.


yes you are correct but they were not this deep and they lost to Tufts.. can't really fault them on that one
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 10:16:00 PM
Congrats to Rowan for that academic success.

What I take from the last few posts is that D3 isn't supposed to be just about ultra-elite New England private colleges, BUT, it also isn't supposed to be a breeding ground for transfer havens and soccer factories.  And regarding the latter, and as I've commented before, my main reaction is that kids sometimes spending 6-7 years exhausting their D3 eligibility on D3 especially...and bouncing around schools specifically because of soccer just seems plain silly to me (likely involving some denial about the relative importance of one's soccer "career").  You can't chase the feeling of being the star high school quarterback forever.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 10:18:10 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 10:12:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 07:52:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 07:36:27 PM
rowan spent the off-season recruiting the NJACs best players. stole #9 from Montclair. stole #10 Ryan campbell from Ramapo as well as another ramapo player. not saying it's a bad thing but they took care of business last off season. rowan has the talent to make a run as long as they are playing at their home turf. home field advantage is HUGE is November. nothing is better than playing for your fans and school at a NCAA sanctioned event.  Rowan is more than likely going to meet Newark in the Finals of NJAC conference tournament so we will see. best of luck to both teams

Rowan has exactly the set-up you described last year....home field all the way to the Final Four.  They could not beat Tufts on home field in the 2nd round.


yes you are correct but they were not this deep and they lost to Tufts.. can't really fault them on that one

I don't fault them but they were strong favorites to get to the Final Four and seriously compete for a title.  What was their national ranking going into the tournament last year?  There was a reason Rowan was going to host to the Final Four.  Tufts barely made the tournament.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 10:38:23 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 10:18:10 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 10:12:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 07:52:26 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 15, 2017, 07:36:27 PM
rowan spent the off-season recruiting the NJACs best players. stole #9 from Montclair. stole #10 Ryan campbell from Ramapo as well as another ramapo player. not saying it's a bad thing but they took care of business last off season. rowan has the talent to make a run as long as they are playing at their home turf. home field advantage is HUGE is November. nothing is better than playing for your fans and school at a NCAA sanctioned event.  Rowan is more than likely going to meet Newark in the Finals of NJAC conference tournament so we will see. best of luck to both teams

Rowan has exactly the set-up you described last year....home field all the way to the Final Four.  They could not beat Tufts on home field in the 2nd round.


yes you are correct but they were not this deep and they lost to Tufts.. can't really fault them on that one

I don't fault them but they were strong favorites to get to the Final Four and seriously compete for a title.  What was their national ranking going into the tournament last year?  There was a reason Rowan was going to host to the Final Four.  Tufts barely made the tournament.


yeah i agree with you 100%. Tufts is a tournament team that can beat anyone that's all i was saying. they won titles with 5-7 losses. BUT that's no excuse for Rowan. i think the thing that rowan has this year that they didn't last year and that's depth. their subs change the game and that's what you need. injuries start popping up now that it's the end of the season. i remember 2013 late injuries KILLED us going into elite 8 and final four. they need a lucky draw and they need to host and take care of business. they could even see newark in the Elite 8 game!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 16, 2017, 12:19:06 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 10:16:00 PM
What I take from the last few posts is that D3 isn't supposed to be just about ultra-elite New England private colleges, BUT, it also isn't supposed to be a breeding ground for transfer havens and soccer factories.

Agreed. As an aside, in looking at the list (https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Awards/Recipients/2016-17_College_Team_Academic_Award_Winners.aspx) of award-winning schools, there are a number of impressive average team GPAs -- ones that stood out to me included Case Western (3.50), Colorado College (3.52), Haverford (3.51), Vassar (3.57), WashU (3.53), W&L (3.66), and MIT (3.59!). All very good schools in their own rights, so to have athletes maintaining those GPAs (major difficulty nonwithstanding) while playing soccer is really impressive.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 16, 2017, 09:10:26 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 16, 2017, 12:19:06 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 10:16:00 PM
What I take from the last few posts is that D3 isn't supposed to be just about ultra-elite New England private colleges, BUT, it also isn't supposed to be a breeding ground for transfer havens and soccer factories.

Agreed. As an aside, in looking at the list (https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Awards/Recipients/2016-17_College_Team_Academic_Award_Winners.aspx) of award-winning schools, there are a number of impressive average team GPAs -- ones that stood out to me included Case Western (3.50), Colorado College (3.52), Haverford (3.51), Vassar (3.57), WashU (3.53), W&L (3.66), and MIT (3.59!). All very good schools in their own rights, so to have athletes maintaining those GPAs (major difficulty nonwithstanding) while playing soccer is really impressive.

My first reaction is that we are in an age of massive grade inflation.  I think colleges know that parents don't want to spend 65-70K a year and see their kids bring home a 2.75 or 2.5 semester.  My own kids certainly benefited.  That said, 3.66 and 3.59 for an entire team at schools like W&L and MIT is very impressive and hard to comprehend.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:16:45 AM
Personally I think Rowan has more hype than they should. I have watched them play a couple times so far this season. Are they a good team? Of course they are. Do they have Final 4 caliber talent? Most certainly. But are they disciplined enough to mentally make a run of 6 straight games to a final? I don't think they are. They have 3 solid wins and 2 tough losses. I don't know if they have challenged themselves enough this year to prepare them for the treacherous journey of the NCAA tournament.

We saw it last year with a disappointing second round exit at home with all the national title hype. We saw it the previous year (2015) with a disappointing first round exit to Dickinson. I firmly believe last year's Rowan team was better than this year's Rowan team despite the lack of depth last year compared to this year. That would worry me if I were a Prof fan.

I am still not sure why they didn't challenge themselves more in the non-conference. Messiah, Lycomimg, and CNU are all great tests (1-2-0) but other than that they played 6 legit cupcakes and an under-performing F&M side. The NJAC is way down this year and that will hurt them come tournament time.

A lot depends on the draw, match-ups, health, and most importantly luck! We will see what happens for the Profs but I wouldn't be surprised to be talking about another 1st or 2nd round exit this year in about a month. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:37:26 AM
Shooter's Top 15
1. Calvin (13-0-1)---Despite being tripped up at Hope they still haven't lost and are a promising pick come NCAA's. 
2. Messiah (13-1-0)---Tuesday will tell us a lot and a win at Lyco will bump them to #1.
3. Tufts (10-1-1)---Allowed 1 goal all year. Hard to imagine anyone stopping these guys in November. 
4. St. Thomas (14-1-0)---Still nobody wants to talk about the Tommies! Top 4 in my book.
5. Chicago (13-1-0)---Nice bounce back this week and top 5 caliber keeps them right on the edge.
6. Lycoming (14-1-0)---A huge test as they host Messiah on Tuesday.
7. Oneonta St. (11-1-1)---The Red Dragons are off to a great start and look dangerous.
8. Rowan (14-2-0)---Massive win over Newark propels the Profs into the top 10.
9. Drew (14-0-1)---They refuse to lose! Look for an undefeated season heading into playoffs.
10. Trinity Tx (14-1-0)---Still uneasy about them but they keep winning and always have quality teams come NCAA's. 
11. Newark (15-2-0)---Battled hard at Rowan but fell short. Drops them slightly.
12. Springfield (13-0-0)---The last remaining unblemished team!
13. St. Joseph's (13-0-1)---Haven't given up a goal all year. That's impressive.
14. Cortland St. (13-2-0)---Still a dangerous squad. Look for them to be in the SUNYAC final vs Oneonta come early November.
15. Lynchburg (12-1-1)---Would not want to see this team come NCAA's.

RV: North Park (11-1-1), John Carroll (12-1-1), Hopkins (11-1-2), Gettysburg (11-2-0), Dean (10-0-2), Buffalo St (12-1-2), CNU (11-2-0), Brandeis (10-3-0), Mary Washington (11-2-1), Kenyon (10-2-2)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: franklyspeaking on October 16, 2017, 09:54:05 AM
Rowan is a very good team, where that takes them in the end will not change the fact that they are very good.  You stated the NJAC is down this year, that is certainly true.  Some of the soccer being played is just not good at all.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on October 16, 2017, 10:22:11 AM
SUNYAC looks powerful this year, could be the year they have 3 contenders for a National title.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:16:45 AM
Personally I think Rowan has more hype than they should. I have watched them play a couple times so far this season. Are they a good team? Of course they are. Do they have Final 4 caliber talent? Most certainly. But are they disciplined enough to mentally make a run of 6 straight games to a final? I don't think they are. They have 3 solid wins and 2 tough losses. I don't know if they have challenged themselves enough this year to prepare them for the treacherous journey of the NCAA tournament.

I wonder how often teams from the power conferences like NJAC, NESCAC, UAA, etc. schedule more than three or four Top 25-caliber non-conference opponents in a given season.  Who's on Tufts' and Amherst's and Connecticut's non-conference schedules?  Who's on Brandeis', Chicago's, Carnegie Mellon's non-conference schedules? Do any of them have a tougher non-conference schedule? Now Rowan couldn't know that Lycoming would bounce back to be this strong, so a little lucky there, but likewise, they couldn't know F&M would drop-off so much (due in part to losing Ugo Okolie for the season).  And Messiah wasn't on the schedule until Mount St. Vincent cancelled on the Messiah and they went looking for a replacement game.  But in the end, Rowan had Messiah, F&M, CNU and Lycoming on their non-conference schedule.  Now you are correct that the NJAC isn't as strong this year and so that hinders their preparation to make an NCAA run. As to cupcakes, it's only Albright and today's opponent Brooklyn that are ridiculous.  You're not going to be able to find Top 50 teams for every game date on your non-conference schedule.  I'm no Rowan fan--farthest from it--but I wouldn't be so critical of their schedule.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:16:45 AM
Personally I think Rowan has more hype than they should. I have watched them play a couple times so far this season. Are they a good team? Of course they are. Do they have Final 4 caliber talent? Most certainly. But are they disciplined enough to mentally make a run of 6 straight games to a final? I don't think they are. They have 3 solid wins and 2 tough losses. I don't know if they have challenged themselves enough this year to prepare them for the treacherous journey of the NCAA tournament.

I wonder how often teams from the power conferences like NJAC, NESCAC, UAA, etc. schedule more than three or four Top 25-caliber non-conference opponents in a given season.  Who's on Tufts' and Amherst's and Connecticut's non-conference schedules?  Who's on Brandeis', Chicago's, Carnegie Mellon's non-conference schedules? Do any of them have a tougher non-conference schedule? Now Rowan couldn't know that Lycoming would bounce back to be this strong, so a little lucky there, but likewise, they couldn't know F&M would drop-off so much (due in part to losing Ugo Okolie for the season).  And Messiah wasn't on the schedule until Mount St. Vincent cancelled on the Messiah and they went looking for a replacement game.  But in the end, Rowan had Messiah, F&M, CNU and Lycoming on their non-conference schedule.  Now you are correct that the NJAC isn't as strong this year and so that hinders their preparation to make an NCAA run. As to cupcakes, it's only Albright and today's opponent Brooklyn that are ridiculous.  You're not going to be able to find Top 50 teams for every game date on your non-conference schedule.  I'm no Rowan fan--farthest from it--but I wouldn't be so critical of their schedule.

There is no middle ground though. They played 3 very good teams, F&M who is the only tweener, then the others are all soft cupcakes.

Keystone, Albright, Frostburg, F&M, Hood, Muhlenberg, Brooklyn combined record of 38-49-11. Subtract Keystone who is currently 9-4-1 but plays a super weak schedule and you're looking at 29-45-10! 

Sure they couldn't predict that the NJAC would be down and sure they play 3 solid teams plus F&M, but then to turnaround and play 6 gimme games isn't impressive to me. And better yet, they lost to 2 of the 3 hard games they had to play. Why would that make me believe they are capable of making a final 4 when they play 3 hard non-conference games and lose twice?

Clearly Rowan is a top 15 team everyday of the week. They have a great combo of size, athleticism, and speed mixed with talented players. But defensively they struggle verse above average teams giving up 7 goals in in the 3 games to CNU, Messiah and Lycoming. Sure you Prof lovers will argue that they have the most goals scored in men's soccer for D1, D2, and D3 to date and that's great but Tufts has proven that defense will get you the crown at the end of the year. Come NCAA's giving up 2+ goals a game will come back to haunt you. Last fun fact of this post...Rowan has given up 2+ goals in 6 games this season. Tufts has given up 1 goal all year........   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 16, 2017, 01:34:50 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:16:45 AM
Personally I think Rowan has more hype than they should. I have watched them play a couple times so far this season. Are they a good team? Of course they are. Do they have Final 4 caliber talent? Most certainly. But are they disciplined enough to mentally make a run of 6 straight games to a final? I don't think they are. They have 3 solid wins and 2 tough losses. I don't know if they have challenged themselves enough this year to prepare them for the treacherous journey of the NCAA tournament.

I wonder how often teams from the power conferences like NJAC, NESCAC, UAA, etc. schedule more than three or four Top 25-caliber non-conference opponents in a given season.  Who's on Tufts' and Amherst's and Connecticut's non-conference schedules?  Who's on Brandeis', Chicago's, Carnegie Mellon's non-conference schedules? Do any of them have a tougher non-conference schedule? Now Rowan couldn't know that Lycoming would bounce back to be this strong, so a little lucky there, but likewise, they couldn't know F&M would drop-off so much (due in part to losing Ugo Okolie for the season).  And Messiah wasn't on the schedule until Mount St. Vincent cancelled on the Messiah and they went looking for a replacement game.  But in the end, Rowan had Messiah, F&M, CNU and Lycoming on their non-conference schedule.  Now you are correct that the NJAC isn't as strong this year and so that hinders their preparation to make an NCAA run. As to cupcakes, it's only Albright and today's opponent Brooklyn that are ridiculous.  You're not going to be able to find Top 50 teams for every game date on your non-conference schedule.  I'm no Rowan fan--farthest from it--but I wouldn't be so critical of their schedule.

There is no middle ground though. They played 3 very good teams, F&M who is the only tweener, then the others are all soft cupcakes.

Keystone, Albright, Frostburg, F&M, Hood, Muhlenberg, Brooklyn combined record of 38-49-11. Subtract Keystone who is currently 9-4-1 but plays a super weak schedule and you're looking at 29-45-10! 

Sure they couldn't predict that the NJAC would be down and sure they play 3 solid teams plus F&M, but then to turnaround and play 6 gimme games isn't impressive to me. And better yet, they lost to 2 of the 3 hard games they had to play. Why would that make me believe they are capable of making a final 4 when they play 3 hard non-conference games and lose twice?

Clearly Rowan is a top 15 team everyday of the week. They have a great combo of size, athleticism, and speed mixed with talented players. But defensively they struggle verse above average teams giving up 7 goals in in the 3 games to CNU, Messiah and Lycoming. Sure you Prof lovers will argue that they have the most goals scored in men's soccer for D1, D2, and D3 to date and that's great but Tufts has proven that defense will get you the crown at the end of the year. Come NCAA's giving up 2+ goals a game will come back to haunt you. Last fun fact of this post...Rowan has given up 2+ goals in 6 games this season. Tufts has given up 1 goal all year........

It's a fair assessment to have Shooter but I like Flying Weasel's point on UAA and NESCAC schedules etc and that they most likely don't have overall strong non-conference slates either. Rowan is NCAA Sweet 16 good for sure in my opinion.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:16:45 AM
Personally I think Rowan has more hype than they should. I have watched them play a couple times so far this season. Are they a good team? Of course they are. Do they have Final 4 caliber talent? Most certainly. But are they disciplined enough to mentally make a run of 6 straight games to a final? I don't think they are. They have 3 solid wins and 2 tough losses. I don't know if they have challenged themselves enough this year to prepare them for the treacherous journey of the NCAA tournament.

I wonder how often teams from the power conferences like NJAC, NESCAC, UAA, etc. schedule more than three or four Top 25-caliber non-conference opponents in a given season.  Who's on Tufts' and Amherst's and Connecticut's non-conference schedules?  Who's on Brandeis', Chicago's, Carnegie Mellon's non-conference schedules? Do any of them have a tougher non-conference schedule? Now Rowan couldn't know that Lycoming would bounce back to be this strong, so a little lucky there, but likewise, they couldn't know F&M would drop-off so much (due in part to losing Ugo Okolie for the season).  And Messiah wasn't on the schedule until Mount St. Vincent cancelled on the Messiah and they went looking for a replacement game.  But in the end, Rowan had Messiah, F&M, CNU and Lycoming on their non-conference schedule.  Now you are correct that the NJAC isn't as strong this year and so that hinders their preparation to make an NCAA run. As to cupcakes, it's only Albright and today's opponent Brooklyn that are ridiculous.  You're not going to be able to find Top 50 teams for every game date on your non-conference schedule.  I'm no Rowan fan--farthest from it--but I wouldn't be so critical of their schedule.

There is no middle ground though. They played 3 very good teams, F&M who is the only tweener, then the others are all soft cupcakes.

Keystone, Albright, Frostburg, F&M, Hood, Muhlenberg, Brooklyn combined record of 38-49-11. Subtract Keystone who is currently 9-4-1 but plays a super weak schedule and you're looking at 29-45-10! 

Sure they couldn't predict that the NJAC would be down and sure they play 3 solid teams plus F&M, but then to turnaround and play 6 gimme games isn't impressive to me. And better yet, they lost to 2 of the 3 hard games they had to play. Why would that make me believe they are capable of making a final 4 when they play 3 hard non-conference games and lose twice?

Clearly Rowan is a top 15 team everyday of the week. They have a great combo of size, athleticism, and speed mixed with talented players. But defensively they struggle verse above average teams giving up 7 goals in in the 3 games to CNU, Messiah and Lycoming. Sure you Prof lovers will argue that they have the most goals scored in men's soccer for D1, D2, and D3 to date and that's great but Tufts has proven that defense will get you the crown at the end of the year. Come NCAA's giving up 2+ goals a game will come back to haunt you. Last fun fact of this post...Rowan has given up 2+ goals in 6 games this season. Tufts has given up 1 goal all year........   

Their two losses to three of their top non-conference opponents isn't a reason to say they couldn't make a Final Four run, because both those games could have gone either way, and the Messiah one especially could have and should have been won and if re-played very well may have been won. The more concerning thing is the two goals conceded to a several average/mediocre opponents over halfway into the season.  But Im not arguing about Rowan's chances to make a Final Four run, my point is that I'd guess that your criticism of Rowan's scheduling would apply to at least half the team's in the Top 25 if put under the same scrutiny.  Looking through it's hard to say that Tufts, Rutgers-Newark, Hopkins, Lyco, Amherst, Springfield, Drew, Heidelberg, Connecticut, Gettysburg, etc. have any better non-conference schedules.  You strip away their top few opponents and they too all full of teams that would be cupcakes by the standard you used for Rowan's opponents (a standard I don't agree with as I would differentiate between average, mediocre, soft opponents and cupcakes).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 04:15:42 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 16, 2017, 10:27:51 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 09:16:45 AM
Personally I think Rowan has more hype than they should. I have watched them play a couple times so far this season. Are they a good team? Of course they are. Do they have Final 4 caliber talent? Most certainly. But are they disciplined enough to mentally make a run of 6 straight games to a final? I don't think they are. They have 3 solid wins and 2 tough losses. I don't know if they have challenged themselves enough this year to prepare them for the treacherous journey of the NCAA tournament.

I wonder how often teams from the power conferences like NJAC, NESCAC, UAA, etc. schedule more than three or four Top 25-caliber non-conference opponents in a given season.  Who's on Tufts' and Amherst's and Connecticut's non-conference schedules?  Who's on Brandeis', Chicago's, Carnegie Mellon's non-conference schedules? Do any of them have a tougher non-conference schedule? Now Rowan couldn't know that Lycoming would bounce back to be this strong, so a little lucky there, but likewise, they couldn't know F&M would drop-off so much (due in part to losing Ugo Okolie for the season).  And Messiah wasn't on the schedule until Mount St. Vincent cancelled on the Messiah and they went looking for a replacement game.  But in the end, Rowan had Messiah, F&M, CNU and Lycoming on their non-conference schedule.  Now you are correct that the NJAC isn't as strong this year and so that hinders their preparation to make an NCAA run. As to cupcakes, it's only Albright and today's opponent Brooklyn that are ridiculous.  You're not going to be able to find Top 50 teams for every game date on your non-conference schedule.  I'm no Rowan fan--farthest from it--but I wouldn't be so critical of their schedule.

There is no middle ground though. They played 3 very good teams, F&M who is the only tweener, then the others are all soft cupcakes.

Keystone, Albright, Frostburg, F&M, Hood, Muhlenberg, Brooklyn combined record of 38-49-11. Subtract Keystone who is currently 9-4-1 but plays a super weak schedule and you're looking at 29-45-10! 

Sure they couldn't predict that the NJAC would be down and sure they play 3 solid teams plus F&M, but then to turnaround and play 6 gimme games isn't impressive to me. And better yet, they lost to 2 of the 3 hard games they had to play. Why would that make me believe they are capable of making a final 4 when they play 3 hard non-conference games and lose twice?

Clearly Rowan is a top 15 team everyday of the week. They have a great combo of size, athleticism, and speed mixed with talented players. But defensively they struggle verse above average teams giving up 7 goals in in the 3 games to CNU, Messiah and Lycoming. Sure you Prof lovers will argue that they have the most goals scored in men's soccer for D1, D2, and D3 to date and that's great but Tufts has proven that defense will get you the crown at the end of the year. Come NCAA's giving up 2+ goals a game will come back to haunt you. Last fun fact of this post...Rowan has given up 2+ goals in 6 games this season. Tufts has given up 1 goal all year........   

Their two losses to three of their top non-conference opponents isn't a reason to say they couldn't make a Final Four run, because both those games could have gone either way, and the Messiah one especially could have and should have been won and if re-played very well may have been won. The more concerning thing is the two goals conceded to a several average/mediocre opponents over halfway into the season.  But Im not arguing about Rowan's chances to make a Final Four run, my point is that I'd guess that your criticism of Rowan's scheduling would apply to at least half the team's in the Top 25 if put under the same scrutiny.  Looking through it's hard to say that Tufts, Rutgers-Newark, Hopkins, Lyco, Amherst, Springfield, Drew, Heidelberg, Connecticut, Gettysburg, etc. have any better non-conference schedules.  You strip away their top few opponents and they too all full of teams that would be cupcakes by the standard you used for Rowan's opponents (a standard I don't agree with as I would differentiate between average, mediocre, soft opponents and cupcakes).

Very true about the two losses out of three not being a factor to say they couldn't or won't make a final 4 run. I guess my point I am trying to get at (which I have done poorly thus far) is if Rowan is so good and they think they are so good then why wouldn't they challenge themselves more this season? If this is the year for them to win it all why would they play such a lackluster schedule? Why wouldn't they replace Albright or Frostburg with a team like Elizabethtown or Roanoke? Teams that are going to be good and a test but on paper Rowan should be able to handle. This isn't about other teams schedules like you mentioned. Those teams aren't claiming to be national champion favorites before the season even started. And no one on these boards were pushing for any of those above teams you listed to be final 4 favorites...at least I wasn't besides Amherst and Tufts. I just view it as a lot of talk and not a lot to back up the hype yet. They may very well run the table and make it to the final 4 but from what I have seen the defense struggles, the goalie struggles, and they are hot headed and ultimately undisciplined. I am not yet sold. They have the talent, athleticism, size, speed and skill but a shaky defense and lack of discipline will not go a long way in the tournament.     
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 16, 2017, 04:19:26 PM
Just for kicks, if I had to choose right now, my final 4 teams would be Tufts, Messiah, St. Thomas, and Oneonta St. These 4 will most likely change 296239 times before the bracket ever gets released and then they will change 2392472392 more times when there is a bracket!  ;D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on October 16, 2017, 10:55:25 PM
Shooter. Your clearly a Messiah homer. Your speaking from an uneducated perspective when it comes to scheduling. We will see what the SOS numbers look like soon enough. Coach Baker is in his fourth season in charge after taking over on the day before preseason in 2014! Under his guidance the program has gone 10-9, 16-6, 17-3-1 and this year looking at 17-2 entering the playoffs. With two losses that  fall flat on the shoulders of the keeper who is no longer starting. All I can say is your right Rowan hasn't done it yet in the Baker era. But they have taken over the NJAC and put themselves in position to again have Home field advantage. They had a team full of sophomores last year let's see what they get done with more upperclassmen playing this year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 08:49:45 AM
Quote from: Go2Goal on October 16, 2017, 10:55:25 PM
Shooter. Your clearly a Messiah homer. Your speaking from an uneducated perspective when it comes to scheduling. We will see what the SOS numbers look like soon enough. Coach Baker is in his fourth season in charge after taking over on the day before preseason in 2014! Under his guidance the program has gone 10-9, 16-6, 17-3-1 and this year looking at 17-2 entering the playoffs. With two losses that  fall flat on the shoulders of the keeper who is no longer starting. All I can say is your right Rowan hasn't done it yet in the Baker era. But they have taken over the NJAC and put themselves in position to again have Home field advantage. They had a team full of sophomores last year let's see what they get done with more upperclassmen playing this year.

You're* (Must be that NJ education  ;) )

How does anything in my statements make me a "Messiah" homer? Is it because Messiah actually challenged themselves in the non-conference? Haverford did as well. Does that make me a "Haverford" homer?

My statements have not discredited that the Profs are a solid team. In my opinion they are not Final 4 good like many people claim. They are undisciplined and struggle defensively. That's not a recipe for success in NCAA's.

And I will try one last time with this emphasis...if Rowan thinks and says and taunts that they are the best team in the country then why were they scared to schedule a little more competition than 4 games (6 total not counting 2 NJAC games) where they won by 5+ goals? Do you honestly think those 4 games will help them more than playing a team like Etown or Eastern or York or Virginia Wesleyan? Anybody with about a .500 record or better that is half decent. Those 4 teams of winning by 5+goals is a joke. Maybe you have 1 or 2 of those games a year but 6??? And you want to say they challenged themselves enough? LOL. They boast the most goals scored in D3 but that's because they played a bunch of cupcakes and almost half of the 64 goals they have came verse only 4 teams!

Finally, I think Rowan is a VERY GOOD team! I am not taking that away from them. But in my opinion they will not make the Final 4 unless they get a favorable draw which we won't know for a couple weeks yet. Lack of discipline and defense will not win you a championship.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: Go2Goal on October 16, 2017, 10:55:25 PM
Shooter. Your clearly a Messiah homer.

Shooter, a Messiah homer?!?!? You apparently haven't been paying attention.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: Go2Goal on October 16, 2017, 10:55:25 PM
Shooter. Your clearly a Messiah homer.

Shooter, a Messiah homer?!?!? You apparently haven't been paying attention.

Case and point. Thank you FW  ;D

Will you be at the Messiah/Lyco match today? Keep us posted if so! I will be watching from a computer screen.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 12:01:00 PM

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 08:49:45 AMAnd I will try one last time with this emphasis...if Rowan thinks and says and taunts that they are the best team in the country then why were they scared to schedule a little more competition than 4 games (6 total not counting 2 NJAC games) where they won by 5+ goals? Do you honestly think those 4 games will help them more than playing a team like Etown or Eastern or York or Virginia Wesleyan? Anybody with about a .500 record or better that is half decent. Those 4 teams of winning by 5+goals is a joke. Maybe you have 1 or 2 of those games a year but 6??? And you want to say they challenged themselves enough? LOL. They boast the most goals scored in D3 but that's because they played a bunch of cupcakes and almost half of the 64 goals they have came verse only 4 teams!

Since the Rowan team and fans are not taunting or saying anything on this message board, it might help the rest of us to understand why you have gone out of your way to single out Rowan for this critique if you referenced where Rowan is saying and taunting that they are the best team in the country.

Having Albright and Brooklyn on their schedule is ridiculous (Messiah had Mount St. Vincent last year and again this year until MSV cancelled, and most teams, even title-contenders have game like that on the non-conference schedule). But you're going to have a go at Rowan for scheduling Frostburg State and Hood? Based on recent seasons, both those teams met your criteria of about a .500 record or better and half decent. Rowan couldn't know that Frostburg State would have their worst season by far since 2010.  Frostburg hadn't conceded more than 3 goals in a game since 2013 and didn't concede more than 2 goals in a game in 2014 and 2015. And Hood was a team on the rise over the past few seasons, and if they had maintained what they accomplished last year or had continued their rise, that would have been a fine opponent to fill out the schedule.


Frostburg State in recent years:
2016: 9-10-1  |  CAC 5th Place  |  worst defeat L 0-3 (one time)
2015: 11-5-2  |  CAC 4th Place  |  worst defeat L 1-2 or L 0-1
2014: 10-6-3  |  CAC 3rd place  |  worst defeat L 0-1
2013: 13-7-0  |  CAC 3rd Place
2012: 12-3-4  |  CAC 3rd Place
2011: 11-3-5  |  CAC 4th Place

Based on that, who could have predicted they would be 4-9-2 this season and capable of conceding 7 goals in a game?


Hood in recent years:
2016: 11-5-2  |  Commonwealth 4th Place  |  worst defeat L 0-2 or L 2-3
2015: 12-9-0
2014: 8-9-1
2013: 5-11-1

A bit less to be sure they would be a decent side in 2017, but not unreasonable to expect them to be over .500 (they are 7-7-1) and able to keep most all games reasonably close (besides the Rowan game they only have one other loss by more than a single goal).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 12:05:20 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: Go2Goal on October 16, 2017, 10:55:25 PM
Shooter. Your clearly a Messiah homer.

Shooter, a Messiah homer?!?!? You apparently haven't been paying attention.

Case and point. Thank you FW  ;D

Will you be at the Messiah/Lyco match today? Keep us posted if so! I will be watching from a computer screen.

Nope. At work.  Not sure I'll even be able to follow the game much.  I wish this game could be a weekend game.  When E-town was the main rival in the conference, that game was always on the weekend near the end of the season. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 12:01:00 PM

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 08:49:45 AMAnd I will try one last time with this emphasis...if Rowan thinks and says and taunts that they are the best team in the country then why were they scared to schedule a little more competition than 4 games (6 total not counting 2 NJAC games) where they won by 5+ goals? Do you honestly think those 4 games will help them more than playing a team like Etown or Eastern or York or Virginia Wesleyan? Anybody with about a .500 record or better that is half decent. Those 4 teams of winning by 5+goals is a joke. Maybe you have 1 or 2 of those games a year but 6??? And you want to say they challenged themselves enough? LOL. They boast the most goals scored in D3 but that's because they played a bunch of cupcakes and almost half of the 64 goals they have came verse only 4 teams!

Since the Rowan team and fans are not taunting or saying anything on this message board, it might help the rest of us to understand why you have gone out of your way to single out Rowan for this critique if you referenced where Rowan is saying and taunting that they are the best team in the country.

Having Albright and Brooklyn on their schedule is ridiculous (Messiah had Mount St. Vincent last year and again this year until MSV cancelled, and most teams, even title-contenders have game like that on the non-conference schedule). But you're going to have a go at Rowan for scheduling Frostburg State and Hood? Based on recent seasons, both those teams met your criteria of about a .500 record or better and half decent. Rowan couldn't know that Frostburg State would have their worst season by far since 2010.  Frostburg hadn't conceded more than 3 goals in a game since 2013 and didn't concede more than 2 goals in a game in 2014 and 2015. And Hood was a team on the rise over the past few seasons, and if they had maintained what they accomplished last year or had continued their rise, that would have been a fine opponent to fill out the schedule.


Frostburg State in recent years:
2016: 9-10-1  |  CAC 5th Place  |  worst defeat L 0-3 (one time)
2015: 11-5-2  |  CAC 4th Place  |  worst defeat L 1-2 or L 0-1
2014: 10-6-3  |  CAC 3rd place  |  worst defeat L 0-1
2013: 13-7-0  |  CAC 3rd Place
2012: 12-3-4  |  CAC 3rd Place
2011: 11-3-5  |  CAC 4th Place

Based on that, who could have predicted they would be 4-9-2 this season and capable of conceding 7 goals in a game?


Hood in recent years:
2016: 11-5-2  |  Commonwealth 4th Place  |  worst defeat L 0-2 or L 2-3
2015: 12-9-0
2014: 8-9-1
2013: 5-11-1

A bit less to be sure they would be a decent side in 2017, but not unreasonable to expect them to be over .500 (they are 7-7-1) and able to keep most all games reasonable close (besides the Rowan game they only have one other loss by more than a single goal).
.

Great perspective FW and you are right that one can't predict but only hope when it comes to schedules. The same can be said for teams that scheduled Misericordia like Messiah. 12-5-3 last year and 1-12-1 so far this year. That makes sense so that is a valid point on your end.

As for the taunting and saying this and that I referenced the Rowan team and supporters. Check out the team's social media pages, player quotes, etc. It is one thing to be confident and have goals and it is another to be arrogant. Messiah I am sure has the same goals and aspirations but display it in a professional manner. I can't say the same for Rowan. Once again I am not trying to take away from the team's success I just personally don't think they are going to survive in NCAA's and get to the Final 4 for the multiple reasons I have stated already. That's all. Great team. Top 10 or 15 caliber. Just wish they would have challenged themselves more this year but scheduling is difficult as you pointed out. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 12:09:09 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 12:05:20 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 17, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2017, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: Go2Goal on October 16, 2017, 10:55:25 PM
Shooter. Your clearly a Messiah homer.

Shooter, a Messiah homer?!?!? You apparently haven't been paying attention.

Case and point. Thank you FW  ;D

Will you be at the Messiah/Lyco match today? Keep us posted if so! I will be watching from a computer screen.

Nope. At work.  Not sure I'll even be able to follow the game much.  I wish this game could be a weekend game.  When E-town was the main rival in the conference, that game was always on the weekend near the end of the season.

I agree and the same for me. Will be streaming this one on the smartphone!!  :)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
After watching Rowan for the 1st time this year play RUN I must say they are a legit team. Best in the country? No Can beat anyone on a given day? Yes Can be beaten in early NCAA rounds by anyone on a given day? Yes...I agree with firstplacecloser that Rowan plays very well on their home carpet and in front of their own fans like most teams do. I would be interested to see them play on grass. Last year I watched RUN a couple times on their home carpet and they looked fantastic but then in the NCAA's on Amherst grass field against Brandeis they looked a shell of what I saw earlier in the year. Now that has to do with the quality of opponent also but NJAC teams just do not play a ton of grass games. It would behoove Rowan to win the double in the NJAC and get to host all the way to the Final 4.  Yes they had this advantage last year and were beaten but this is a new year and they will want that chance again.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 17, 2017, 08:35:25 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
After watching Rowan for the 1st time this year play RUN I must say they are a legit team. Best in the country? No Can beat anyone on a given day? Yes Can be beaten in early NCAA rounds by anyone on a given day? Yes...I agree with firstplacecloser that Rowan plays very well on their home carpet and in front of their own fans like most teams do. I would be interested to see them play on grass. Last year I watched RUN a couple times on their home carpet and they looked fantastic but then in the NCAA's on Amherst grass field against Brandeis they looked a shell of what I saw earlier in the year. Now that has to do with the quality of opponent also but NJAC teams just do not play a ton of grass games. It would behoove Rowan to win the double in the NJAC and get to host all the way to the Final 4.  Yes they had this advantage last year and were beaten but this is a new year and they will want that chance again.

yea the only way Rowan goes to F4 is hosting. we hosted 2013 and honestly only beat montclair for that sole reason. plus i just want those games to be 20 minutes away from me haha. but i also agree with whoever said rowan's loses were solely on the goalie bc o was there for both of those games and can tell you it's true. they may very well have to beat RUN again. and also the last time Rowan was NJAC champs was like 2002. RUN i don't think they ever won a conference title. in recent years the NJAC playoffs are insane and almost impossible to predict correctly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on October 18, 2017, 04:23:49 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 16, 2017, 12:19:06 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 15, 2017, 10:16:00 PM
What I take from the last few posts is that D3 isn't supposed to be just about ultra-elite New England private colleges, BUT, it also isn't supposed to be a breeding ground for transfer havens and soccer factories.

Agreed. As an aside, in looking at the list (https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Awards/Recipients/2016-17_College_Team_Academic_Award_Winners.aspx) of award-winning schools, there are a number of impressive average team GPAs -- ones that stood out to me included Case Western (3.50), Colorado College (3.52), Haverford (3.51), Vassar (3.57), WashU (3.53), W&L (3.66), and MIT (3.59!). All very good schools in their own rights, so to have athletes maintaining those GPAs (major difficulty nonwithstanding) while playing soccer is really impressive.


Both of Hopkins' teams received this distinction this year with the men pulling a 3.50 and the women a 3.6

/proud alum
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 18, 2017, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on October 18, 2017, 04:23:49 PM

Both of Hopkins' teams received this distinction this year with the men pulling a 3.50 and the women a 3.6

/proud alum

Ah, how did I miss that? Hopkins certainly belongs in that group -- impressive indeed.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 18, 2017, 04:57:39 PM
Men's Regional Rankings are out:

http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/Men/regional-rankings-1

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 18, 2017, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 18, 2017, 04:57:39 PM
Men's Regional Rankings are out:

http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/Men/regional-rankings-1

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3

How Calvin ranks fourth in the Central region is beyond my comprehension. I know, I know, SOS is everything, but sometimes the numbers just don't tell the full truth, do they? No way any of those teams beats Calvin on a neutral, dry grass pitch. Chicago would give them a good game, perhaps, but this it nuts.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 18, 2017, 05:44:04 PM
Quote from: Falconer on October 18, 2017, 05:40:36 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 18, 2017, 04:57:39 PM
Men's Regional Rankings are out:

http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/Men/regional-rankings-1

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3

How Calvin ranks fourth in the Central region is beyond my comprehension.

Strength of Schedule.  Strength of Schedule.  Strength of Schedule.

The committee likes Strength of Schedule.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 06:42:03 PM
I forget are they doing RvR for just that weeks teams or is it where once ranked always ranked
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 06:47:40 PM
One other question....Will the second week bring around a ton of movement because RvR was not included this week? In New England you have an undefeated Springfield only ranked #6 but they have beaten 3 ranked teams in Stevens, Gordon and UMASS Boston.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 18, 2017, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 06:42:03 PM
I forget are they doing RvR for just that weeks teams or is it where once ranked always ranked

http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/about
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 07:28:50 PM
Hmmm..That is a first...So we do not have an answer yet
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 18, 2017, 08:14:26 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 07:28:50 PM
Hmmm..That is a first...So we do not have an answer yet

The Championship Manual has only ever given the criteria for making at-large selections and then has always said that the regional rankings are done using the same criteria as for the at-large selections. That worked in the past when the "results vs. ranked" criteria was written such that it could be applied to both selections and rankings.  However, the new "results vs. ranked" criteria for this season specifically says that a "ranked team" is defined based on both the third weekly rankings and the final rankings (that are done before making the at-large selections, but only published afterwards).  Obviously, you can't use RvR data based on future rankings, so none of the four rankings can follow the exact literal criteria that the at-large selections will be based on.  But they may follow it in principle; that is, the RvR data for the weekly rankings might be based on the prior two rankings (if two prior rankings exist).  But until we get clarification from the committee, we can't be sure.  Now, for the 2nd weekly rankings, there is only one prior ranking, so we can assume that RvR data used for determining the rankings next week will be based on who was ranked in this week's rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 08:37:08 PM
Ok thanks for the clarification. That is what I thought but wanted to make sure. Maybe that is why they changed for a year or 2 to once-ranked always ranked to make it easier. I remember we had teams with 5-6-7-8 wins v ranked opponents and it made it seem very watered down. I imagine they got a ton of complaints from coaches and admin about it because it did not last long
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gotberg on October 18, 2017, 10:19:22 PM
North Park defeated Chicago at Chicago tonight, 1-0.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 19, 2017, 01:32:09 AM
NPU held the Maroons to only one shot in the first half, as the North Siders outshot the South Siders for the match, 10-8, with each side registering three shots on frame. Each side had one great chance that was stoned by the opposing keeper; after Vikings playmaker Peder Olsen had sent a bouncing ball forward into the box that was finished by Matias Warp only a minute into the second half to break a scoreless tie, the CCIW's leading scorer, Carel Kawele, found himself in a breakaway seven minutes later that was thwarted when Chicago keeper Hill Bonin came off the line to make a diving stop. In the 77th minute, Nicco Capotosto of the Maroons sent a free kick into the box that Max Lopez headed, looking for top shelf from point-blank range, but NPU keeper Mathias Stulen managed to punch it up over the crossbar.

This was the signature win that North Park (12-1-1) has been looking for all season. The Vikings came into the match ranked second in the Central Region behind Chicago, which is now 13-2, so the two Windy City sides will no doubt switch places in the next ranking, should NPU knock off Case Western Reserve this coming weekend.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: just4kix on October 19, 2017, 04:16:46 PM
Ryan - I enjoyed your column and proposal to eliminate long throws.  Not sure if it's practical, but I'd like to see some real consideration for it at this level.

I will add a few more reasons why I dislike long throws in DIII (and high school for that matter):

1. They are relatively even more dangerous on a too-narrow field (usually due to lack of real estate, but perhaps a coach with a proficient long-thrower might be tempted to move the sidelines in a bit?)

2. Too much pressure on refs to make judgments about contact in the box.

3. More contact = more chance for injuries

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 20, 2017, 08:25:58 AM
Calvin at #4 in the Central Region is a crime. The NCAA committee can claim they know they are doing but that clearly proves they don't have a single clue. Arguably the best team in the country and they are slotted 4th in their respective region! Does the committee even watch these teams play? That's the job right...? Terrible to see.

And don't give me the "they value SOS" bull crap. SOS is certainly a big factor but also watching the teams should be another and I have watched Calvin numerous times over the past 2 seasons and they are remarkable. Such a shame that some of us do more than the actual NCAA committee does in terms of watching these teams.

I have other bones to pick which I will wait until the RvR comes out but Calvin is the most glaring issue this time around. Absolutely awful from the NCAA "know-it-alls." What a crime! #SaveCalvin
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 20, 2017, 08:56:47 AM
To go further, I have watched multiple teams play multiple times this year (some ranked some not ranked). Out of the teams I have watched multiple times this is how I would rank them for my top 10...

1. Messiah (1st in Mid-Atlantic)---These kids are good and getting better as the season goes on. They find ways to keep winning which is a valuable trait to have come NCAA's.

2. Tufts (1st in New England)---The Jumbos are incredible. So difficult to break down in the back hence the 1 goal allowed all season. Depth, athleticism, skill and quality of coaching paired with experience and defense will have them looking for a 3rd title in 4 years.

3. Calvin (4th in Central)---These kids can flat out play. Anyone that thinks otherwise can hit the road! I am always in awe watching them and think they are a heavy favorite to get back to the Final 4...unless the committee screws them!

4.  St. Thomas (1st in North)---I love this team. How they are so overlooked in the D3 Poll is beyond me. 12th place? Really? You're going to punish them for losing to a quality Capital team early on but reward Hopkins for a terrible 0-1-2 run of form when it counts...? Come on D3Soccer Poll you're better than that! The Tommies will make another run!!!! I'd bet Mr. Right 150 bananas on it  ;)

5. Lycoming (4th in Mid-Atlantic)---Speed and athleticism mixed with a strong defense and aggression will make them difficult to beat. After watching them arguably outplay Messiah I think everyone can agree they are a serious contender come NCAA's...unless the committee screws them!

6. Chicago (1st in Central)---Offensively dangerous and will be overly prepared come NCAA's after the gauntlet of the UAA. Look for Chicago to make a nice push in the tournament.

7. Oneonta St. (1st in East)---How can you not include the Red Dragons? Fierce, fast and ferocious! Only caught a glimpse of them this season but I am confident slotting them here from that glimpse.       

8. Rowan (1st in South Atlantic)---Ah yes Rowan. Just because I don't think they will make the Final 4 doesn't mean I can't value the quality they do have. Offensive firepower mixed with confidence will take them far but defensive struggles and potential over confidence might trip them up. If they can clean some things up in the back look for them to compete.

9. Springfield (6th in New England)---Quality wins over multiple teams has me head scratching at the poor regional ranking. The record also agrees with how talented they are. Let's see how they do in NCAA's...if the committee doesn't screw them too!

10. St. Joe's-Maine (Not ranked in New England) ---This team hasn't allowed a goal all year....still undefeated and a nice win over Bowdoin proving once again they can compete with the best of the NESCAC when needed...this has me confident they can compete with the very best. Not being regionally ranked is yet another crime...0 goals...0 losses...2nd round NCAA's last year and fully reloaded and looking stronger this year yet still no respect. Just flat out terrible by the committee.   

RV (11-25): Trinity (Tx), Brandeis, John Carroll, Lynchburg, Amherst, Cortland, North Park, Buffalo St, Drew, Dean, Newark, Hopkins, Kenyon, W&L, and Oglethorpe.     
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 09:53:07 AM

Drew at #7 is interesting.    Could a team that reaches conference finals, potentially finishing 18-1-1, be on the bubble? 

.515 SOS with Catholic and Goucher remaining which should drop it even further.   

Throw in a conference playoff game vs a team with a weak SOS and OOWP, I'm not so sure they qualify to stay in the rankings.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Go2Goal on October 20, 2017, 10:00:35 AM
Make up your mind Shooter. Your crying for Calvin who has played one of the softest schedules in the country by teams currently ranked in the region. Only 5 of the 45 ranked teams have played easier schedules than Calvin.
Last week your all over Rowan for not having a tougher schedule. Yet the numbers show only 9 of the 45 ranked teams played a tougher schedule than Rowan year to date. And by the way Rowan has a higher SOS than Messiah! Lol
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on October 20, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 09:53:07 AM

Drew at #7 is interesting.    Could a team that reaches conference finals, potentially finishing 18-1-1, be on the bubble? 

.515 SOS with Catholic and Goucher remaining which should drop it even further.   

Throw in a conference playoff game vs a team with a weak SOS and OOWP, I'm not so sure they qualify to stay in the rankings.

Didn't that happen to E-Town in 2015? They were something like 16-2 and didn't get a bid having lost in in conference final. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 20, 2017, 10:57:24 AM
The one I don't get is Springfield who appears to have a very reasonable SoS and yet still suffered vis a vis rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: redsoccer06 on October 20, 2017, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on October 20, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 09:53:07 AM

Drew at #7 is interesting.    Could a team that reaches conference finals, potentially finishing 18-1-1, be on the bubble? 

.515 SOS with Catholic and Goucher remaining which should drop it even further.   

Throw in a conference playoff game vs a team with a weak SOS and OOWP, I'm not so sure they qualify to stay in the rankings.

Didn't that happen to E-Town in 2015? They were something like 16-2 and didn't get a bid having lost in in conference final.

Ended the season 17-2-1 with wins over Dickinson and Messiah. Drew will definitely be on the bubble even if they reach their conference final because the relative strength of the Landmark conference this year is so weak and arguably their only quality win came over Haverford. Not saying that Drew's SOS will drop this far, but teams with an SOS under .500 aren't even being considered for at large bids. SJC in Maine is 14-0-1 this year without even conceding a goal, but their SOS is under .500, so they aren't even regionally ranked.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEFutbol90 on October 20, 2017, 11:12:18 AM
They are not only undefeated and yet to concede this year, but also statistically show they have players that can compete with some of the regions best teams based on where some players stand with individual stats. Dating back to last year as well they posted impressive defense numbers on the way to reaching the 2nd round for the first time in program history. While I understand they do not take last year into account and the fact they are in one of the worst conferences in the nation, there are two teams ranked in the first regional poll that SJC beat (Johnson & Whales/Bowdoin). After only losing 1 non-impactful player last year, and set to lose only 1 starter this year, with reinforcements ready to play this is a program on the brink of shaking up the order for some of the upper echelon teams in NE.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 20, 2017, 12:29:44 PM
Quote from: Go2Goal on October 20, 2017, 10:00:35 AM
Make up your mind Shooter. Your crying for Calvin who has played one of the softest schedules in the country by teams currently ranked in the region. Only 5 of the 45 ranked teams have played easier schedules than Calvin.
Last week your all over Rowan for not having a tougher schedule. Yet the numbers show only 9 of the 45 ranked teams played a tougher schedule than Rowan year to date. And by the way Rowan has a higher SOS than Messiah! Lol

You're so caught up with this Rowan thing. Give it a rest. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Didn't think questioning why they played awful teams instead of average teams was a huge deal but apparently for you Jersey Homers it is. If I had any significant issue with Rowan they wouldn't be in my top 10...ever consider that?

Have you watched Calvin? Did you not see them run away to the final before being beat by Tufts? They aren't in a strong conference like Rowan so the SOS will be noticeably different. That's not a good comparison on your behalf it's like apples and oranges. I am assuming you are on the NCAA committee then if you think Calvin shouldn't be higher than #4 in their respective region......
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 12:46:29 PM
I think Calvin could be slotted as high as #2, but Chicago should definitely be #1.    I don't have a problem with North Park at #2, but Calvin should at the very least, be ahead of Washington.

Keep in mind, I think when E-town did not make the tournament with 2 losses, their SOS was similar to Calvin...   Calvin will win the AQ and not have to worry.  At the same time, even if they failed to earn the AQ... I cannot see them dropping below #4 in their region at ANY point.   If Dominican or Aurora bump them from a numbers game perspective, then the system has a major problem.

2015 E-town:  17-2-1      SOS .525   RvR 2-1    NO BID
2017 Calvin:   14-0-1       SOS .530   RvR 0-0


Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2017, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 12:46:29 PM
I think Calvin could be slotted as high as #2, but Chicago should definitely be #1.    I don't have a problem with North Park at #2, but Calvin should at the very least, be ahead of Washington.

??? North Park beat Chicago on Chicago's home pitch less than 48 hours ago. The Maroons still have a better SOS than does NPU (whose SOS, in turn, is significantly better than Calvin's), but the Vikings are now 12-1-1 to Chicago's 13-2. Head-to-head has to count for something.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3 Dad on October 20, 2017, 02:06:49 PM
Playing in a poor conference is always going to bring Calvin's SOS down. In fairness they did schedule Case Western, OWU, and Oberlin in the preseason and those squads maybe haven't been as strong as people thought they'd be early on. It puts a lot of pressure to be perfect in the league, and the league tournament. Last year they lost two regular season games and probably had to win their league tournament just to make the field, but no doubt their SOS hurts them when the seeding and match-ups are announced. I'm sure they'll have to go on the road again this year against top ten teams early on in tournament.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 20, 2017, 05:35:37 PM
A big part of the problem with the MIAA is the fact that the league plays a double round-robin schedule, which isn't the norm for D3 soccer. It not only dramatically reduces the number of non-conference matches that MIAA teams can play, it also holds down the SOS of the league's better teams by forcing them closer to .500.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 08:03:17 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 09:53:07 AM

Drew at #7 is interesting.    Could a team that reaches conference finals, potentially finishing 18-1-1, be on the bubble? 

.515 SOS with Catholic and Goucher remaining which should drop it even further.   

Throw in a conference playoff game vs a team with a weak SOS and OOWP, I'm not so sure they qualify to stay in the rankings.


And Last Guy makes an appearance.....So Last Guy how is the reffing going? You reffing High School games yet or are you still doing 6th Grade Girls games on the line?

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 09:29:30 PM
Trinity(TX) playing some beautiful futbol tonight. Granted it is against a horrible team(Centenary) but Trinity has not allowed the other team to touch the ball in the 1st half..A complete performance and excellent picture of keepaway as they lead 2-0 but by the looks of how weak Centenary is this one could finish 8-0. I wish just for one year the committee would allow Trinity to host a quad with a New England, Mid Atlantic and East teams. I think if that happened every year when Trinity has deserved to host but forced to travel we would have seen a few different National Champions.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 10:12:34 PM
One last observation for the night...RUN at 15-2-0 looked on paper to be a Pool C lock and after seeing them twice on the stream they are definitely an NCAA team BUT they have 1 RvR Win against Stevens and who knows if Stevens will even last in the Regional Rankings. They were Regionally Ranked #6 in the South Atlantic behind 5 teams with extremely high SOS. The best being Emory at .642 and the worst being Oglethorpe at .577. There is no way RUN at .544 can get close to those 5 teams in SOS. Also, without any ranked teams that they could possibly face until they meet Rowan in the NJAC Final it looks quite possible that RUN is AQ or bust. So this might be the team that went out of its way to play an extremely weak non-conference schedule assuming that the NJAC would pump its SOS up. Their non-conference SOS is a measly .519. IMO this Non-Conference SOS is a very important criterion and am very glad they introduced it this year. I just am blown away that this is not Primary criteria. Seems to me this could be one of the more important piece of info we have.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 20, 2017, 10:29:19 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 10:12:34 PM
One last observation for the night...RUN at 15-2-0 looked on paper to be a Pool C lock and after seeing them twice on the stream they are definitely an NCAA team BUT they have 1 RvR Win against Stevens and who knows if Stevens will even last in the Regional Rankings. They were Regionally Ranked #6 in the South Atlantic behind 5 teams with extremely high SOS. The best being Emory at .642 and the worst being Oglethorpe at .577. There is no way RUN at .544 can get close to those 5 teams in SOS. Also, without any ranked teams that they could possibly face until they meet Rowan in the NJAC Final it looks quite possible that RUN is AQ or bust. So this might be the team that went out of its way to play an extremely weak non-conference schedule assuming that the NJAC would pump its SOS up. Their non-conference SOS is a measly .519. IMO this Non-Conference SOS is a very important criterion and am very glad they introduced it this year. I just am blown away that this is not Primary criteria. Seems to me this could be one of the more important piece of info we have.


RUN does this to themselves every year. newark and montclair used to play teams like Hood and score 8 goals and brag about it. it only hurts themselves bc when they play higher quality teams they look awful.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
Yea I remember RUC always challenged themselves with their schedule. The coach was willing to play anyone anywhere at least back between 2012-2104. Not sure if he will do it now but they do have a .569 SOS so it looks like he still challenges his team even if they are not as strong.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 21, 2017, 12:21:08 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
Yea I remember RUC always challenged themselves with their schedule. The coach was willing to play anyone anywhere at least back between 2012-2104. Not sure if he will do it now but they do have a .569 SOS so it looks like he still challenges his team even if they are not as strong.

2012 was a pretty tough schedule. 2013 was fairly tough but we were just so strong that year. after Mike Ryan graduated they fell off sadly. even the lower njac teams play tougher schedule than RUN and Montclair. Kudos to Rowan this year with their schedule. thoroughly deserved
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 21, 2017, 12:23:22 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
Yea I remember RUC always challenged themselves with their schedule. The coach was willing to play anyone anywhere at least back between 2012-2104. Not sure if he will do it now but they do have a .569 SOS so it looks like he still challenges his team even if they are not as strong.

from 2012-2013 we had a 56 games streak that was snapped in the loss to Messiah. At home i would've played any team in the country on any given day, went almost 2 years without losing at home. that's why homefield advantage is so important come NCAA time. nothing is better than waking
up in your bed at the tournament site.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on October 21, 2017, 11:43:50 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 21, 2017, 12:23:22 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 10:37:43 PM
Yea I remember RUC always challenged themselves with their schedule. The coach was willing to play anyone anywhere at least back between 2012-2104. Not sure if he will do it now but they do have a .569 SOS so it looks like he still challenges his team even if they are not as strong.

from 2012-2013 we had a 56 games streak that was snapped in the loss to Messiah. At home i would've played any team in the country on any given day, went almost 2 years without losing at home. that's why homefield advantage is so important come NCAA time. nothing is better than waking
up in your bed at the tournament site.

I agree with the home field as I think most people would agree.  The fact is, all tournament teams have to hit the road (with final four teams On a neutral site) at some point.  Other factors, is it men's hosting year or women's hosting year, is a particular facility available to host etc.  come into play as well.  It got me thinking and I came up with the "worthless stat of the day".  8 of the top 25 d3soccer.com teams have WON every road game they've played this year.  Lotta factors involved obviously, most importantly being strength of opponent and number of road games played, But it does say something about getting on planes, busses and the traveling And having a mindset to overcome to get the he job done in every road game you've played!

Trinity 8-0
St Joseph's 8-0
Chicago 7-0
Rowan 6-0
Gettysburg 6-0
Springfield  5-0
Chris. Newport 5-0
Lynchburg    4-0
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 21, 2017, 12:24:37 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 20, 2017, 08:03:17 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 20, 2017, 09:53:07 AM

Drew at #7 is interesting.    Could a team that reaches conference finals, potentially finishing 18-1-1, be on the bubble? 

.515 SOS with Catholic and Goucher remaining which should drop it even further.   

Throw in a conference playoff game vs a team with a weak SOS and OOWP, I'm not so sure they qualify to stay in the rankings.


And Last Guy makes an appearance.....So Last Guy how is the reffing going? You reffing High School games yet or are you still doing 6th Grade Girls games on the line?
[/quote

Stuck grinding it out for HS... Every. Single. Day... Only getting turn backs for college at this point, because I committed to games back in April.  HS seems down this year in Philadelphia, Montgomery, Delaware counties this season.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 06:16:17 PM
Lebanon Valley hanging tough with Messiah as it is 0-0 about 15 minutes in. They try to play futbol a bit and look like a decent outfit..It id hard to tell on the stream but they look to be in a 4-3-3 which against Messiah I am not so sure about but we will see.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:09:14 PM
Jeez...Lebanon Valley misses a sitter 6 feet from the goal..They are hanging tough still 0-0 about 10 minutes into the 2nd Half
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:14:54 PM
Lebanon Valley starting to amp the pressure up as they are attacking Messiah's goal with purpose....

Wow it pays off as a nice cross from the flank gets slotted home by LVC. The kid was wide open on the backpost as a Messiah defender lost his man for sure...1-0 LVC..lets see how they play this as a win here would be HUGE and possibly get them a Pool C...Let's see if they sit in now for the next half-hour
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:25:57 PM
Messiah gets one back...60th minute 1-1
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on October 21, 2017, 07:33:12 PM
I've seen Messiah on a few occassions this year, but tonight is the first time I've watched for an extended period.  Very impressed with their ability to keep the ball on a string and possess. Seem very structured and cohesive,  but I do question whether or not they have a "difference maker" on the offensive end.  Some one who has the technical skills, creativeness and pace to be dangerous and affect opposing teams game plans. They may have and I could be missing it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on October 21, 2017, 07:36:26 PM
As soon as I post, a left footed strike by Kirby Robbins.  Is he the guy?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:37:05 PM
This game getting stretched with about 13 minutes left...End to End by both sides
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on October 21, 2017, 07:36:26 PM
As soon as I post, a little footed strike by Kirby Robbins.  Is he the guy?

I am no Messiah expert I just decided to tune in tonight to see how they would play after a tough game at Lycoming. They have plenty of skill and creativity IMO but seem to be lacking a clear finisher...Like Chicago's Lopez with his head..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:41:44 PM
WOW...LVC clanks one off the post...tons of drama still left in this one
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 07:48:34 PM
1-1 LVC at Messiah heading to OT...GK for LVC playing very well
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 21, 2017, 08:14:29 PM
Messiah wins it in the 105th minute 2-1 over LVC...Tough loss for LVC as you could say they deserved a draw but maybe they will see them again in the conference tournament
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 21, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
I think Messiah really missed Plaza tonight. Not sure if he will miss more games but he controls the center of the field. Hopefully he will be back soon.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 21, 2017, 08:37:13 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 21, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
I think Messiah really missed Plaza tonight. Not sure if he will miss more games but he controls the center of the field. Hopefully he will be back soon.

For certain. When was he injured? How?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 21, 2017, 08:42:33 PM
Quote from: Falconer on October 21, 2017, 08:37:13 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 21, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
I think Messiah really missed Plaza tonight. Not sure if he will miss more games but he controls the center of the field. Hopefully he will be back soon.

For certain. When was he injured? How?

Don't know. Just noticed he didn't play tonight. He has had nagging injury I think last year and this year. Maybe just needs a rest hopefully.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 22, 2017, 02:55:36 PM
Horrendous own goal by CWRU gives North Park the win 3-2.

Kudos to CWRU's Coach Bianco (via OWU) for playing the nation's toughest schedule.  And CWRU must be the best school in the country that hardly anyone ever talks about.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 22, 2017, 03:07:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2017, 02:55:36 PM
Horrendous own goal by CWRU gives North Park the win 3-2.

Kudos to CWRU's Coach Bianco (via OWU) for playing the nation's toughest schedule.  And CWRU must be the best school in the country that hardly anyone ever talks about.

I don't know if luck is the right word, but Case has had some brutal fortunes in the last few years. Eight one-goal losses last year, losing back-to-back away games in OT (including one in 2OT) on the final UAA weekend two years ago after being in the running for the conference title for most of the season, and now losing today in that manner after almost upsetting Chicago on the road last weekend. As for the school itself, it -- at least on the East Coast -- doesn't have a lot of fanfare, but it's a very good school.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 22, 2017, 03:13:05 PM
Not the sharpest win of the season for NPU, but the Vikings will take it. That would've been a long five and a half hours on the busride home for them if they had faltered.

Now they can start to concentrate on Wednesday night. The Park needs to take care of business at home when the Vikings host North Central, which is currently 5-1-0 in CCIW play to NPU's 5-0-1, with one match apiece left after that. In other words, NPU can sew up the conference title and home-pitch advantage in the tourney by beating the Cardinals on Wednesday.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on October 22, 2017, 09:38:18 PM
One team that has really fallen off the national radar after their near-miss in 2015 is Loras (for good reason!)  They struggled last year and didn't even make the NCAAs.  And this year they struggled even more and were 4-5 at one point, having lost 3 in a row.  They came home from an embarrassing 3-1 loss to Nebraska Wesleyan, having not brought many of their top players (for having broken team rules following a loss to crosstown rival Dubuque).  Since then they have won 7 in a row and have looked like a different team.  While they will have to win the Iowa Conference tournament to get into the NCAAs if they do that they could be dangerous.

It's pretty well known that Loras has played a very direct style of soccer in the past and, while successful, that style has taken its share of criticism here.  This team is not that same one-trick pony.  This is my 10th year living in Dubuque and following Loras and I've never seen a Duhawk team with the level of individual skill from top to bottom that this one has.  They can string together passes in tight spaces and take opposing players on and making them look silly. In one 30 second sequence today defenders were nutmegged 3 times.  They are very young with a lot of first-years and sophomores starting and, in traditional Rothert fashion, play 25+ guys in a given game.  It seems to me that, in addition to some egregious defensive lapses, some of their early struggles this year might have been due to not knowing who they were: were they the direct-playing team of the past or were they going to be the more creative team that their personnel allowed for?  Even my non-soccer-aficionado wife is enjoying watching the team this year after getting frustrated with last year's kickball. 

Watching today's game against St Scholastica I noticed the Duhawks even had a couple quick re-starts, one of which led directly to a goal.  In the past they've never done that; every free-kick would get sent straight into the box.  Anyway, this got me thinking, are there teams out there that have been known to make significant changes in their playing styles from year to year (not due to a coaching change)?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 23, 2017, 09:14:41 PM
Rochester quietly having a nice season.  And also Lynchburg.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 24, 2017, 09:00:31 AM
Shooter's Top 15
1. Messiah (15-1-0)
2. Tufts (12-1-1)
3. Calvin (15-0-1)
4. St. Thomas (15-1-0)
5. Chicago (13-2-0)
6. Oneonta St. (12-1-2)
7. Lycoming (15-2-0)
8. Rowan (15-2-1)
9. Springfield (13-0-1)
10. St. Joe's (15-0-1)
11. Trinity Tx (16-1-0)
12. Drew (16-0-1)
13. Lynchburg (14-1-1)
14. North Park (13-1-1)
15. Cortland St (15-2-0)

16-25: Newark (17-2-0), Amherst (10-2-2), JHU (13-1-2), CT College (9-1-4), Kenyon (12-2-2), Buffalo St. (13-1-3), CNU (12-2-1), John Carroll (13-2-1), Brandeis (11-3-0), Otterbein (13-2-0)

RV: J&W (14-1-1), W&L (11-3-1), UR (10-2-2), Gettysburg (12-3-0), Transylvania (13-1-0), Ogelthorpe (13-2-1), Dean (12-1-2), DeSales (12-1-2), Bowdoin (10-3-1) CMU (10-3-1), Leb Val (10-3-1), UW-Platteville (10-3-1), Redlands (11-3-2), St. Norbert (13-3-1), Williams (8-2-4)     
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 24, 2017, 09:21:48 AM
Paul Newman's Own Top 15

1)  Tufts
2)  Messiah
3)  Calvin
4)  Lycoming
5)  Rowan
6)  Chicago
7)  Trinity (TX)
8)  St Thomas
9)  Oneonta St
10) Lynchburg
11) North Park
12) Rutgers-Newark
13) Kenyon
14) Drew
15) Cortland St

RV -- Amherst, Bowdoin, JHU, Buff State, CNU, JCU, Brandeis, UR, Redlands, Gettysburg, Conn College, Springfield
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 24, 2017, 11:18:36 AM
I still do not understand how the Alleghany Mountain Collegiate Conference plays all these games at 11:30am or 1:00pm on weekdays...I guess class is not priority as we have a Medaille at Penn State Behrend match slated to kick off in 15 minutes..Unreal...Unless it is travel as Medaille is in Buffalo and Penn State Behrend in Erie...Total distance is only an 1 1/2 hours...Looks like the game will decide the winner of the regular season in this conference
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 24, 2017, 12:00:23 PM
What is the best region this year? New England is always loaded but the Mid and South Atlantic's look strong as well. Great Lakes a little sluggish in the second half of the season as well as the East. The North, Central, and West all rounding out the next grouping. If I had to rank them I would align them as so:

1. New England
2. Mid-Atlantic
3. South Atlantic
4. Great Lakes
5. East
T6. Central
T6. North
8. West
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 24, 2017, 12:20:10 PM
I do not think New England is #1 this year. IMO they are way down this year. I think the Mid-Atlantic would be #1 and possibly the South and Great Lakes at #2 and #3. Even the East could be #3. New England would be #4 in my book.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2017, 04:26:35 PM
Men's Regional Rankings are out:

http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/Men/regional-rankings-2 (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/Men/regional-rankings-2)

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3 (http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 25, 2017, 04:30:11 PM
It seems that Tuesday's results were not factored in. Is that normal? I always thought it was results up to the day the rankings come out.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2017, 04:32:43 PM
No.  It has always been results thru Sunday.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 25, 2017, 04:33:30 PM
Oh that is right..Ok thanks
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2017, 04:33:52 PM
Loras makes huge jump from unranked to #2 in North.  That's the biggest thing I saw on a first glance.

That's the effect of now having RvR which didn't exist last week.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on October 25, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
I think it's odd that Loras and UW-Platteville (#2 and #3 in the North) are 20 miles apart and didn't play each other this year. That would have been a good game.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 26, 2017, 01:09:30 AM
North Park clinched the CCIW championship and home pitch in the conference tourney by downing second-place North Central tonight, 3-0. The Vikings, who now find themselves in first place in the Central Region rankings, trading places with Chicago atop the region after having beaten the Maroons last Wednesday, advance to 14-1-1 on the season.

NPU's archrival and fellow traditional CCIW power Wheaton went in the opposite direction, as WC suffered a shocking draw at the hands of lowly Millikin tonight, 2-2. That eliminates Wheaton (4-3-1 in CCIW) from contention for a spot in the four-team CCIW tourney, as fourth-place Carthage (4-2-1) owns the tiebreaker with one league match remaining for the Red Men. After making the first 15 CCIW tourneys, Wheaton's streak is snapped, and WC will instead clean out the lockers after the final regular-season match on Saturday. The last time Wheaton's season ended without at least one extra match tacked on to the end of the schedule was 1992.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 26, 2017, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 24, 2017, 12:20:10 PM
I do not think New England is #1 this year. IMO they are way down this year. I think the Mid-Atlantic would be #1 and possibly the South and Great Lakes at #2 and #3. Even the East could be #3. New England would be #4 in my book.

I don't disagree with that! From the eyeball test and not considering any AQ bids, looks like the top 5 in NE are almost locks. Top 4 in the East are heavy favorites to be locks as well as the top 4 in the Mid-Atlantic and South-Atlantic. Top 3 in GL and North are locks and Calvin still at 4th behind Benedictine could cause some issues in the Central. The West has 2 locks and could get a 3rd.

From there the AQ's will spread out and take some of these teams away and once that happens I then agree Mr. Right that the Mid-Atlantic and South Atlantic probably have the best chance to get more teams in after the AQ's take shape. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 26, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
Also since I have seen some others do rankings I will give you the special edition of "MAF Top 10"

MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Springfield
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Kenyon, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, Buff St, UR, Ogelthorpe
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 26, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
I don't have a strong opinion either was, but curious your reasons for rating Oneonta St. in the Top 10 and ahead of Cortland St.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 26, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
I don't have a strong opinion either was, but curious your reasons for rating Oneonta St. in the Top 10 and ahead of Cortland St.

I feel that Oneonta St is the better team right now and historically have been more effective come November so for those reasons I have them ahead of Cortland right now. I was impressed when I watched both briefly this season and both should make NCAA's and have a good crack at a run to a Sweet 16/Elite 8. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 27, 2017, 10:24:06 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 26, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
I don't have a strong opinion either was, but curious your reasons for rating Oneonta St. in the Top 10 and ahead of Cortland St.

I feel that Oneonta St is the better team right now and historically have been more effective come November so for those reasons I have them ahead of Cortland right now. I was impressed when I watched both briefly this season and both should make NCAA's and have a good crack at a run to a Sweet 16/Elite 8. 

I asked because . . .

(a) Cortland St. won the head-to-head match-up 4-2 with a statistical advantage as well (shots 19-10, SOG 11-4, corners 10-2), and

(b) Out of conference, Cortland beat Brandeis which is a bit more impressive than Oneonta beating Stevens who is sub-.500 outside of the Empire 8 (both games coming opening weekend); both beat St. Lawrence handily at home in early-to-mid September; and Cortland beat Hobart away while Oneonta only tied Vassar away.

Now, you do have Cortland State's home loss to Scranton back the second week of the season.  And Oneonta escaped Buffalo State with a scoreless tie, while Cortland came back home from Buffalo with a 1-0 loss.

I haven't seen either of them play (and don't have an horse in this race), so could only go by what's on paper, and on that basis Cortland State would seem to have the slight edge if any edge was to be had by either side.  So when you had Oneonta State higher, out of curiosity/interest (not to be argumentative) I figured I'd ask.  Given their success in the past 5 to 7 years, I'd tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Oneonta over Cortland, too.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Part_Bart on October 27, 2017, 11:21:46 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 27, 2017, 10:24:06 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 27, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 26, 2017, 12:32:24 PM
I don't have a strong opinion either was, but curious your reasons for rating Oneonta St. in the Top 10 and ahead of Cortland St.

I feel that Oneonta St is the better team right now and historically have been more effective come November so for those reasons I have them ahead of Cortland right now. I was impressed when I watched both briefly this season and both should make NCAA's and have a good crack at a run to a Sweet 16/Elite 8. 

I asked because . . .

(a) Cortland St. won the head-to-head match-up 4-2 with a statistical advantage as well (shots 19-10, SOG 11-4, corners 10-2), and

(b) Out of conference, Cortland beat Brandeis which is a bit more impressive than Oneonta beating Stevens who is sub-.500 outside of the Empire 8 (both games coming opening weekend); both beat St. Lawrence handily at home in early-to-mid September; and Cortland beat Hobart away while Oneonta only tied Vassar away.

Now, you do have Cortland State's home loss to Scranton back the second week of the season.  And Oneonta escaped Buffalo State with a scoreless tie, while Cortland came back home from Buffalo with a 1-0 loss.

I haven't seen either of them play (and don't have an horse in this race), so could only go by what's on paper, and on that basis Cortland State would seem to have the slight edge if any edge was to be had by either side.  So when you had Oneonta State higher, out of curiosity/interest (not to be argumentative) I figured I'd ask.  Given their success in the past 5 to 7 years, I'd tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Oneonta over Cortland, too.

For what its worth, Cortland beat Hobart on a huge GK flub and Oneonta had more run of play on Vassar, making this a suspect comparison.  Having seen Oneonta play once, and Cortland twice, it confuses me how their head-to-head went down so one-sided.  Pretty sure we'll see them both in the SUNYAC final and I'd tip towards Oneonta.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: just4kix on October 27, 2017, 04:01:03 PM
The Cortland-Oneonta game itself might have paradoxically been a suspect comparison.  I was able to tune into the stream after Cortland had taken a 1-0 lead and watched Oneonta run circles around them for the remainder of the first half, scoring once to even it.  I had to sign off, but concluded Oneonta was the better side and would likely prevail.  I saw that they scored early in the second half to take a 2-1 lead and decided I was pretty astute.  Yeah, not so much.

I did not see the half of the game that Cortland dominated (first 15 minutes + last 30), but obviously they did.  If there's a rematch, I sure hope I can catch all 90 minutes (or more) because it promises to be good stuff.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on October 27, 2017, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: Part_Bart on October 27, 2017, 11:21:46 AM
For what its worth, Cortland beat Hobart on a huge GK flub and Oneonta had more run of play on Vassar, making this a suspect comparison. 

It's neither here nor there for this argument (there aren't many teams I would pick over Oneonta right now!), but Vassar did outshoot Oneonta 18 (8 on goal) to 12 (5 on goal) and the corners were even in their early season draw.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: just4kix on October 27, 2017, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: Ommadawn on October 27, 2017, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: Part_Bart on October 27, 2017, 11:21:46 AM
For what its worth, Cortland beat Hobart on a huge GK flub and Oneonta had more run of play on Vassar, making this a suspect comparison. 

It's neither here nor there for this argument (there aren't many teams I would pick over Oneonta right now!), but Vassar did outshoot Oneonta 18 (8 on goal) to 12 (5 on goal) and the corners were even in their early season draw.

I wasn't disputing that point in any way.  We are all about gathering relevant information.

I was pointing out that the lopsided result in the head-to-head matchup (which ought to be the most relevant information) may be a bit misleading.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 27, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
See you guys. Good luck in tournament! I'm out of here.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/paul-newman-daytona-rolex-sells-230249233.html
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 29, 2017, 07:27:44 PM
Shooter's Top 15: Playoff Edition
1. Messiah (17-1-0)
2. Calvin (17-0-1)
3. St. Thomas (17-1-0)
4. Tufts (13-1-2)
5. Chicago (15-2-0)
6. Oneonta St. (13-1-2)
7. Lycoming (16-2-0)
8. Rowan (16-2-1)
9. Trinity Tx (18-1-0)
10. St. Joe's (16-0-1)
11. Drew (17-0-1)
12. North Park (15-1-1)
13. Cortland St (15-2-0)
14. Lynchburg (15-1-2)
15. Springfield (13-1-1)

16-25: Newark (18-2-0), JHU (14-1-2), Kenyon (14-2-2), John Carroll (15-2-1), Amherst (11-3-2), Buffalo St. (14-2-3), CNU (13-2-1), Brandeis (12-4-0), Otterbein (15-2-0), W&L (13-3-1)

RV: J&W (15-1-2), UR (11-2-3),  Transylvania (15-1-0), Ogelthorpe (14-2-1), Dean (14-1-2), Bowdoin (10-3-3), CMU (10-3-3),UW-Platteville (11-3-2), Redlands (13-3-2), St. Norbert (14-3-2), Simpson (15-2-2)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on October 29, 2017, 08:10:07 PM
Love these bold predictions.  I think it's a bit easier to accurately predict outcomes in the Premier League where the 20 teams are well known, there is a clear balance of power, and the games are played on regulation size pitches.

In D3 college soccer it comes down to some combination of overall team strength and preparedness, momentum coming into the tournament, and no small amount of luck.  I would suggest that it might actually work against a team like Calvin to have no losses coming into the tournament.  One major setback in a tournament game, and they may not have the experience or mental toughness to make the comeback...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 08:28:31 PM
Quote from: truenorth on October 29, 2017, 08:10:07 PM
Love these bold predictions.  I think it's a bit easier to accurately predict outcomes in the Premier League where the 20 teams are well known, there is a clear balance of power, and the games are played on regulation size pitches.

In D3 college soccer it comes down to some combination of overall team strength and preparedness, momentum coming into the tournament, and no small amount of luck.  I would suggest that it might actually work against a team like Calvin to have no losses coming into the tournament.  One major setback in a tournament game, and they may not have the experience or mental toughness to make the comeback...

I'm just having fun of course.  Calvin may stumble, but it will not be because they don't have the experience or mental toughness.  Their runs to a national semi and a national final the past two years attest to that.  They might be the mentally toughest team in the country and they have a masterful and inspirational coach.

As for Tufts, I am amazed that folks still doubt.  What else does a team have to do to be recognized as the top team or at least one of top 2-3 in the country?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 08:33:15 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 15

1) Tufts
2) Calvin
3) Messiah
4) St Thomas
5) Chicago
6) Trinity (TX)
7) Rowan
8) Lycoming
9) Kenyon
10) Lynchburg
11) Oneonta St
12) Drew
13) Cortland St
14) Bowdoin
15) North Park/Johns Hopkins/Rutgers-Newark (TIE)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on October 29, 2017, 08:41:40 PM
Agreed on Tufts.  Their two national titles in the past three years clearly demonstrate that a team with talent, cohesiveness and sheer determination can get it done, regardless of what their record is coming in to the tournament.  As an occasional college soccer observer located in New England, I admittedly know nothing about Calvin, but runs to the semis and finals in the past two years certainly indicates that they're legit.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 30, 2017, 09:51:14 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.


Tufts-Rowan-Messiah-Trinity/Calvin.... the generic Final Four(Five) prediction at this point.

Tufts over Messiah
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.

Don't necessarily disagree as I think the Jumbos are incredible this season but I couldn't reward them for adding another blemish to the resume. As for predictions in the tournament a lot of that will hinge on what kind of draw a team may get. Certainly Tufts will be the favorite in almost any circumstance but I'd rather not predict a final 4 until the brackets are released. Although LastGuy has a nice final 4/5 listed.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 30, 2017, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.

Don't necessarily disagree as I think the Jumbos are incredible this season but I couldn't reward them for adding another blemish to the resume. As for predictions in the tournament a lot of that will hinge on what kind of draw a team may get. Certainly Tufts will be the favorite in almost any circumstance but I'd rather not predict a final 4 until the brackets are released. Although LastGuy has a nice final 4/5 listed.


do we really think NESCAC is the best Conference or has their conference gone down in the last year? don't get me wrong they are a very strong conference but i say this in regards to Amherst this season... i will also never forgive Amherst for dropping the elite 8 in 2013 to Williams and messiah played a freebie in the semis. but they have not been consistent, neither has Brandeis this year. in the last few years i agree they are top programs in the country but idk what it is this year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 30, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
I would argue that the UAA has been stronger than the NESCAC this season but both are top 3 leagues this year. Toss up for which is the most competitive.

I'd rank them like this...

1. UAA
2. NESCAC
3. OAC
4. Centennial
T5. Commonwealth/NJAC
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 30, 2017, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 30, 2017, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.

Don't necessarily disagree as I think the Jumbos are incredible this season but I couldn't reward them for adding another blemish to the resume. As for predictions in the tournament a lot of that will hinge on what kind of draw a team may get. Certainly Tufts will be the favorite in almost any circumstance but I'd rather not predict a final 4 until the brackets are released. Although LastGuy has a nice final 4/5 listed.


do we really think NESCAC is the best Conference or has their conference gone down in the last year? don't get me wrong they are a very strong conference but i say this in regards to Amherst this season... i will also never forgive Amherst for dropping the elite 8 in 2013 to Williams and messiah played a freebie in the semis. but they have not been consistent, neither has Brandeis this year. in the last few years i agree they are top programs in the country but idk what it is this year.


Nescac is down this year...I would also give it to UAA...Ahh 2013 Amherst was not 2012 Amherst...Williams was just as good they just decided to play Messiah straight up and had an off game..Very poor GK'ing. Amherst would of played Messiah differently but would have still lost in 2013 to Messiah prob 2 or 3-0. Messiah was that good that year. Your failure to beat them is all on you bud no one else..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 30, 2017, 01:46:40 PM
When are the NCAA selections made? Next Monday?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 30, 2017, 02:03:42 PM
Yeah, whether NESCAC is THE toughest or ONE OF THE toughest kind of misses my overall point.  Tufts has allowed one own goal in a tough conference and also with an out of conference slate that included teams like Brandeis.

As for the UAA, my knee-jerk reaction agrees, but.....After Chicago (which has its own surprise losses), who isn't beatable?  Brandeis?  UR?  CMU and Emory have not set the world on fire.  Wash U faded badly.  Credit to Case for being one of the best 6-8-2 teams ever, but they are still 6-8-2 or whatever the record is.  And then there's NYU.  I could still make a case for the NESCAC.  And no other conference comes close to those top two, at least this year. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 30, 2017, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 30, 2017, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.

Don't necessarily disagree as I think the Jumbos are incredible this season but I couldn't reward them for adding another blemish to the resume. As for predictions in the tournament a lot of that will hinge on what kind of draw a team may get. Certainly Tufts will be the favorite in almost any circumstance but I'd rather not predict a final 4 until the brackets are released. Although LastGuy has a nice final 4/5 listed.


do we really think NESCAC is the best Conference or has their conference gone down in the last year? don't get me wrong they are a very strong conference but i say this in regards to Amherst this season... i will also never forgive Amherst for dropping the elite 8 in 2013 to Williams and messiah played a freebie in the semis. but they have not been consistent, neither has Brandeis this year. in the last few years i agree they are top programs in the country but idk what it is this year.


Nescac is down this year...I would also give it to UAA...Ahh 2013 Amherst was not 2012 Amherst...Williams was just as good they just decided to play Messiah straight up and had an off game..Very poor GK'ing. Amherst would of played Messiah differently but would have still lost in 2013 to Messiah prob 2 or 3-0. Messiah was that good that year. Your failure to beat them is all on you bud no one else..

That 2013 Messiah team is arguably the best team ever. No one was stopping them and they could have easily put up 4 or 5 on Camden in the final. They out shot them 32-18 but credit to Camden for battling until the end and giving themselves a chance. Any other year and it may very well have been them winning it all. One of the better finals that I have seen over the years.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on October 30, 2017, 06:56:57 PM
I'm sure some people will throw me under the bus for this...but...how about comparing MAC Commonwealth to NESCAC this year?  Both have two teams in the top 15 nationally.  And MAC Commonwealth has a very strong Lebanon Valley College who took Messiah to 2OT, plus solid and very under rated Alvernia and Arcadia. MACC has three teams in the Mid-Atlantic Top 5 and NESCAC has three teams in the NE Top 5 (four in the Top 6).  Some might also want to consider NJAC, but the top team in the NJAC has two losses - both to MAC Commonwealth teams. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 30, 2017, 08:35:05 PM
Wow.  By the end of this season the OAC and MACC will be considered the top two conferences in the country. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 07:53:38 AM
Quote from: rudy on October 30, 2017, 01:46:40 PM
When are the NCAA selections made? Next Monday?

Yes November 6th.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 07:56:00 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2017, 10:07:47 PM
See you guys. Good luck in tournament! I'm out of here.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/paul-newman-daytona-rolex-sells-230249233.html

Paul--Congrats on the new adventure. Best of luck!  ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 31, 2017, 09:22:39 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 30, 2017, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on October 30, 2017, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on October 30, 2017, 10:50:46 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2017, 07:55:30 PM
Tufts is a clear #1, and IMO it's not a close call. A single own goal allowed all season in the toughest conference in the country with an above average out of conference schedule.

Tufts will beat Messiah in the Elite 8 and then lose decisively to Calvin in a national semifinal.

Don't necessarily disagree as I think the Jumbos are incredible this season but I couldn't reward them for adding another blemish to the resume. As for predictions in the tournament a lot of that will hinge on what kind of draw a team may get. Certainly Tufts will be the favorite in almost any circumstance but I'd rather not predict a final 4 until the brackets are released. Although LastGuy has a nice final 4/5 listed.


do we really think NESCAC is the best Conference or has their conference gone down in the last year? don't get me wrong they are a very strong conference but i say this in regards to Amherst this season... i will also never forgive Amherst for dropping the elite 8 in 2013 to Williams and messiah played a freebie in the semis. but they have not been consistent, neither has Brandeis this year. in the last few years i agree they are top programs in the country but idk what it is this year.


Nescac is down this year...I would also give it to UAA...Ahh 2013 Amherst was not 2012 Amherst...Williams was just as good they just decided to play Messiah straight up and had an off game..Very poor GK'ing. Amherst would of played Messiah differently but would have still lost in 2013 to Messiah prob 2 or 3-0. Messiah was that good that year. Your failure to beat them is all on you bud no one else..

That 2013 Messiah team is arguably the best team ever. No one was stopping them and they could have easily put up 4 or 5 on Camden in the final. They out shot them 32-18 but credit to Camden for battling until the end and giving themselves a chance. Any other year and it may very well have been them winning it all. One of the better finals that I have seen over the years.

i love how out of that entire post you say something like"your failure to beat them is all on you bud." you seem to always have something to say if you don't agree with someone. but let's get back to the more important convo... i believe Messiahs conference, Chicago's, tufts conference are probably top 3 not in that order. i was just trying to get you to look at it differently. i could see a messiah tufts final being probably one of the best finals in d3 history. maybe even throw calvin in the mix against one of those teams.

and side note a 2-1 loss in 2OT to " the best d3 team" in history is absolutely fine with me. at least we got there...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 31, 2017, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on October 31, 2017, 12:25:14 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

i think it's the consistency that Calvin has brought in the last few years. they continually do the right things
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 31, 2017, 12:37:23 PM
I seem to have something to say whether I agree or disagree.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 12:54:10 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?     
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 31, 2017, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 12:54:10 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?   

If you take into account last year then sure you could keep that #1.  But really they are not worthy of #1 right now based on the schedule they played IMO. Based on THIS years results and schedule.  They do have one tie against an average team.  Messiah and Tufts have both beaten quality teams...Messiah has one blemish early in season and Tufts a few blemishes (1 loss and 2 ties) but have only allowed 1 goal all year!  If Calvin were 17-0-1 and had played the likes of Rowan, Lyco, John Hopkins, Amherst, Bowdoin, Brandeis, etc then I would be more inclined to give them the nod.    Sure they are a team that could win it all this year but I think you earn your rankling by playing and beating top teams..not by beating mediocre teams all year.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 31, 2017, 07:11:06 PM
One way to figure out how good a team is to try and imagine who is gonna a beat them. I can't see Tufts, Messiah and Calvin losing to anyone other than one of the others in that group.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on October 31, 2017, 08:26:02 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 31, 2017, 07:11:06 PM
One way to figure out how good a team is to try and imagine who is gonna a beat them. I can't see Tufts, Messiah and Calvin losing to anyone other than one of the others in that group.

You can't see Messiah losing to Rowan, yet they would have lost to Rowan had they been able to convert their PK. Not to mention, Rowan was clearly the better team in the 2nd half.  I get the love for Messiah and their history, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they lose to a handful of teams - even within the region
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 31, 2017, 10:17:55 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on October 31, 2017, 08:26:02 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 31, 2017, 07:11:06 PM
One way to figure out how good a team is to try and imagine who is gonna a beat them. I can't see Tufts, Messiah and Calvin losing to anyone other than one of the others in that group.

You can't see Messiah losing to Rowan, yet they would have lost to Rowan had they been able to convert their PK. Not to mention, Rowan was clearly the better team in the 2nd half.  I get the love for Messiah and their history, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they lose to a handful of teams - even within the region

Even as a Messiah supporter I would have to agree.  I could see probably 10-15 different teams with potential of winning it all this year..including  Rowan and RUN from NJ.   Most top ranked teams in each region could lose a tight game on any given day to another team ranked high in the region.   I think Messiah would play Rowan better at home than at their place..but Rowan is a tough game no matter what.  There is no team so clearly dominant that they are the clear favorites to win it all IMO. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 01, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 12:54:10 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?   

If you take into account last year then sure you could keep that #1.  But really they are not worthy of #1 right now based on the schedule they played IMO. Based on THIS years results and schedule.  They do have one tie against an average team.  Messiah and Tufts have both beaten quality teams...Messiah has one blemish early in season and Tufts a few blemishes (1 loss and 2 ties) but have only allowed 1 goal all year!  If Calvin were 17-0-1 and had played the likes of Rowan, Lyco, John Hopkins, Amherst, Bowdoin, Brandeis, etc then I would be more inclined to give them the nod.    Sure they are a team that could win it all this year but I think you earn your rankling by playing and beating top teams..not by beating mediocre teams all year.

Based on this year's results......they are 17-0-1!!!! And MAF has a point though. They cannot control the schedule when it comes to conference and they get hurt by having to play each team twice in conference. So they cannot schedule as many tough opponents in the non-conference slate to help challenge themselves. 3/4 non-conference games they had were against what many would consider, at the beginning of the year, tough teams. How it has actually turned out with Oberlin, CWRU, and OWU all under performing is unfortunate.

Furthermore, they have proven that they can beat good teams as MAF stated. They have gotten to the Final and Final 4 by beating high quality teams. I am confused why you don't think they could be #1? It's understandable that you feel Messiah or Tufts should be 1st and many would agree with you, but why shouldn't Calvin also be considered? We aren't talking about a 3 or 4 blemish team here but rather an unbeaten team that is performing better, on paper, than last year's national runner-up as MAF also pointed out.

Then you contradict yourself and say there are 10-15 teams that could beat Messiah or Tufts on any given night or have the potential to, so that indicates to me that the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year and that's even more evidence that Calvin could and should be considered. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on November 01, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
Tufts and Messiah will always get the nod because they are championship programs.

It is a bias built into our sport.
Hence: Germany, Italy, Uruguay, England, Spain, France, Brazil and Argentina will always "seem" better than others even when they are not at their best.

People used to say Messiah played in a  weak conference, now they don't.
People used to talk a whole lot more smack about Amherst ( myself included) before they climbed the hill. Now they don't.

Easiest way for Calvin to shut the doubters up is to win one, this year is a perfect opportunity for them.



Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEFutbol90 on November 01, 2017, 09:58:54 AM
Not that St.Joes (Me) is in high regard on a national scale yet they do have a chance of breaking two NCAA records today. They tied the national record by Drew University for 17 straight shutouts in the first round of the GNAC playoffs against Suffolk and have a chance to break it today against Regis in the conference Semis. Also Blake Mullen the Monks 6 foot 7 goalie is 3 minutes and change away from breaking the all time consecutive shutout minutes record. While this is still a relatively small program their recruitment the last two years has made this a program to watch now and in the future. Should be another great day of playoff soccer all around the country!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 01, 2017, 11:16:34 AM
Quote from: NEFutbol90 on November 01, 2017, 09:58:54 AM
Not that St.Joes (Me) is in high regard on a national scale yet they do have a chance of breaking two NCAA records today. They tied the national record by Drew University for 17 straight shutouts in the first round of the GNAC playoffs against Suffolk and have a chance to break it today against Regis in the conference Semis. Also Blake Mullen the Monks 6 foot 7 goalie is 3 minutes and change away from breaking the all time consecutive shutout minutes record. While this is still a relatively small program their recruitment the last two years has made this a program to watch now and in the future. Should be another great day of playoff soccer all around the country!

They might not get a ton of love nationally, but -- even putting aside my Maine homer bias -- that is impressive. Regardless of the schedule you play, records like those are difficult to break.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 01, 2017, 11:38:20 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 01, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 12:54:10 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2017, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 31, 2017, 08:00:59 AM
MAF Top 10 Power Rankings
1. Calvin
2. Tufts
3. Messiah
4. St. Thomas
5. Lycoming
6. Chicago
7. Trinity
8. Oneonta St
9. Kenyon
10. Rowan
---------------------
11-25 (no order): Springfield, Amherst, JC, JHU, Newark, Drew, Lynchburg, St. Joe's, Brandeis, North Park, Bowdoin, Cortland, UR, Ogelthorpe, Otterbein

Not much has changed from last week  :)

The problem I have with Calvin is they have played a weak schedule.  Maybe through no fault of their own given their league and location.  Messiah and Tufts have had a much stronger schedule and are battle tested.   Hard to put them #1 when they really have not beaten any top teams.

Calvin never plays a hard schedule given they are in a poor conference and they have to play each team twice. Double whammy!

They were in the title game last year with practically the same schedule and went 23-3 (2 regular season losses and then to Tufts in the final). 24-1-1 the year before and lost to Loras in the Final 4. 18-2-3 the year before that and got knocked out of NCAA's in PKs.

So this team is doing better than last year's team and you think they don't deserve to be ranked #1? What else do they have to do? Oh yeah they are 1 of 3 remaining teams to not lose yet. They beat Messiah last year in the tournament (which that Messiah team was better than the current Messiah team in my opinion), and they are consistently making the NCAA tournament (this year will be 5 of the last 6 years) and making runs in the tournament once they get there against the best of the best. Here is the run they had to the final last year...defeated Ohio Northern, CMU, Messiah, F&M, and Brandeis before losing in a battle to Tufts. The previous year they defeated Mt. Aloysius, Ohio Wesleyan, F&M, and Kenyon before losing in the Final 4 to Loras.

So my point is this, sure I agree that they play a weak schedule. The numbers don't lie on that. Even then the SOS isn't that bad and they were unfortunate that the limited non-conference portion they get, due to playing each conference opponent twice, didn't have any of those teams get ranked. Typically they could bank on a few of OWU, Oberlin, or CWRU getting ranked. They have proven consistency over more than the last half decade and make deep tournament runs as of late. Sure we don't rank on "historical performance" but yes we actually do factor that in. Until Calvin loses why shouldn't they be ranked #1? They lost in the finals last year which meant they came into the season at #2. Why would a 17-0-1 record not qualify them to jump 1 spot?   

If you take into account last year then sure you could keep that #1.  But really they are not worthy of #1 right now based on the schedule they played IMO. Based on THIS years results and schedule.  They do have one tie against an average team.  Messiah and Tufts have both beaten quality teams...Messiah has one blemish early in season and Tufts a few blemishes (1 loss and 2 ties) but have only allowed 1 goal all year!  If Calvin were 17-0-1 and had played the likes of Rowan, Lyco, John Hopkins, Amherst, Bowdoin, Brandeis, etc then I would be more inclined to give them the nod.    Sure they are a team that could win it all this year but I think you earn your rankling by playing and beating top teams..not by beating mediocre teams all year.

Based on this year's results......they are 17-0-1!!!! And MAF has a point though. They cannot control the schedule when it comes to conference and they get hurt by having to play each team twice in conference. So they cannot schedule as many tough opponents in the non-conference slate to help challenge themselves. 3/4 non-conference games they had were against what many would consider, at the beginning of the year, tough teams. How it has actually turned out with Oberlin, CWRU, and OWU all under performing is unfortunate.

Furthermore, they have proven that they can beat good teams as MAF stated. They have gotten to the Final and Final 4 by beating high quality teams. I am confused why you don't think they could be #1? It's understandable that you feel Messiah or Tufts should be 1st and many would agree with you, but why shouldn't Calvin also be considered? We aren't talking about a 3 or 4 blemish team here but rather an unbeaten team that is performing better, on paper, than last year's national runner-up as MAF also pointed out.

Then you contradict yourself and say there are 10-15 teams that could beat Messiah or Tufts on any given night or have the potential to, so that indicates to me that the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year and that's even more evidence that Calvin could and should be considered. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.

I didn't shoot myself in the foot at all.   Just because I think a team should not be ranked #1 unless they actually beat a few strong teams THIS year doesn't mean I can't also believe any of the top 10-15 teams can beat each other on any given day.  Your logic is flawed. BTW I'm not the only one to think this way if you look at the D3 Soccer poll.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 01, 2017, 12:02:26 PM
Clarification time...

When I said Tufts, Messiah and Calvin were three teams I could only picture losing to one of the others in that group, I should have instead said those are the teams I wouldn't be surprised to see losing to the others or that of course they could lose to 15-20 teams on a given day but that as a fan of any of them I would want to avoid the other two specifically.  Didn't mean to rile a Rowan fan or any other fans.  I'll use my fave, Kenyon.  The Lords could beat any of those three teams on a given day but I don't think any of them will shake in their boots if they see Kenyon in their draw.  If Messiah plays Tufts in a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 game, regardless of what you may read here, Falcons fans are going to be extremely anxious about that game.  That's more what I meant.

As for Calvin, in any given season one can question their record and competition, although the history makes that rather silly IMO.  In my view, there is no reason to question the program itself, AT ALL, unless a national title is the barometer for everyone.  National finals in 2011 and 2016, Final Four in 2015, and I think another Final Four within the past 8-9 years.  As I think MAF liad out, just look at their rusn and who they beat the past two seasons in NCAA play.  I'll simply say this....play them at your own risk.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 01, 2017, 12:14:35 PM
Quote from: Saint of Old on November 01, 2017, 09:45:06 AM
Tufts and Messiah will always get the nod because they are championship programs.

It is a bias built into our sport.
Hence: Germany, Italy, Uruguay, England, Spain, France, Brazil and Argentina will always "seem" better than others even when they are not at their best.

People used to say Messiah played in a  weak conference, now they don't.
People used to talk a whole lot more smack about Amherst ( myself included) before they climbed the hill. Now they don't.

Easiest way for Calvin to shut the doubters up is to win one, this year is a perfect opportunity for them.


AMEN. couldn't have said it anymore perfect than this.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 01, 2017, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 01, 2017, 12:02:26 PM
Clarification time...

When I said Tufts, Messiah and Calvin were three teams I could only picture losing to one of the others in that group, I should have instead said those are the teams I wouldn't be surprised to see losing to the others or that of course they could lose to 15-20 teams on a given day but that as a fan of any of them I would want to avoid the other two specifically.  Didn't mean to rile a Rowan fan or any other fans.  I'll use my fave, Kenyon.  The Lords could beat any of those three teams on a given day but I don't think any of them will shake in their boots if they see Kenyon in their draw.  If Messiah plays Tufts in a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 game, regardless of what you may read here, Falcons fans are going to be extremely anxious about that game.  That's more what I meant.




As for Calvin, in any given season one can question their record and competition, although the history makes that rather silly IMO.  In my view, there is no reason to question the program itself, AT ALL, unless a national title is the barometer for everyone.  National finals in 2011 and 2016, Final Four in 2015, and I think another Final Four within the past 8-9 years.  As I think MAF liad out, just look at their rusn and who they beat the past two seasons in NCAA play.  I'll simply say this....play them at your own risk.


you make very good points here. drawing a team like tufts is a nightmare. just like Loras, York(pa), Oneonta St, Montclair 4-5 years ago is the same thing. Teams that could easily end your season on any given day. i for one would not want to see Calvin Messiah Lycoming Tufts could even throw Rowan in there for this year. i think we are in for a treat in this years NCAA tournament.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 01, 2017, 12:23:24 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 01, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year

Does everyone honestly think it's improbable for anyone outside of #1-4 to win this year? Would it really shock you if RUN or Rowan, or Lycoming or Drew, or Cortland or Oneonta or handful of other teams made a run and won it all? Nobody is going to cake walk to the final.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: oldonionbag on November 01, 2017, 02:06:39 PM
Good point...considering the Jumbos were on the bubble last year. We all know how that ended!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 01, 2017, 02:53:07 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on November 01, 2017, 12:23:24 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 01, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
the #1 ranking really isn't that strong this year

Does everyone honestly think it's improbable for anyone outside of #1-4 to win this year? Would it really shock you if RUN or Rowan, or Lycoming or Drew, or Cortland or Oneonta or handful of other teams made a run and won it all? Nobody is going to cake walk to the final.

Agree completely. Whatever team is left standing will need some good fortune and maybe even come down to PK shootout along the way. Tufts scraped by a few games last year to win it. Kenyon game easily could have turned out differently for Tufts.  Teams with the best defense and goal keeping are the favorite imo.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on November 01, 2017, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: oldonionbag on November 01, 2017, 02:06:39 PM
Good point...considering the Jumbos were on the bubble last year. We all know how that ended!
Yes, here's one anecdotal example.  My son played on a very good Bowdoin team that went to the final four in 2010, along with Messiah, Wisconsin Oshkosh, and Lynchburg.  Of the four teams, Lynchburg had the most pedestrian record coming into the NCAA tournament at 14-5-1.  They were playing on inspiration after one of their teammates died during preseason and one of their key starters had suffered a season ending injury.

Although Bowdoin outplayed them in the semis and led 1-0 through 88 minutes, Lynchburg scored the equalizer in the 89th minute and won in OT.  Lynchburg then legitimately outplayed a 21-1-0 Messiah team in the final and led through 85 minutes, before conceding a controversial equalizer and losing in OT.

Either Bowdoin or Lynchburg could very conceivably have won the final that year.  So, again, no matter how good the regular season record is or how storied the program is, anything can happen in the late stages of the national tournament.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 01, 2017, 04:50:56 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Tufts
13-1-2
0.607
3-1-2
13-1-2
1
2.
Amherst
11-3-2
0.619
4-1-1
11-3-2
2
3.
Brandeis
12-4-0
0.630
5-4-0
12-4-0
3
4.
Springfield
13-1-1
0.554
3-0-1
13-1-1
4
5.
Bowdoin
10-3-3
0.585
2-1-3
10-3-3
5
6.
Middlebury
11-5-0
0.613
3-3-0
11-5-0
8
7.
Connecticut College
9-3-4
0.602
1-2-3
9-3-4
6
8.
Williams
8-3-5
0.605
0-3-3
8-3-5
7
9.
Clark
9-4-3
0.531
1-2-0
9-5-3
--
10.
Endicott
11-4-3
0.521
1-2-1
11-4-3
--
11.
Mass-Boston
9-5-3
0.556
0-1-1
9-5-3
9
12.
Gordon
12-5-1
0.531
0-2-0
12-5-1
11

EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Cortland State
15-2-0
0.580
4-2-0
15-2-0
1
2.
Oneonta State
13-1-2
0.593
2-1-2
13-1-2
2
3.
Rochester
11-2-3
0.586
3-2-2
11-2-3
4
4.
Buffalo State
14-2-3
0.561
2-0-2
14-2-3
3
5.
Plattsburgh State
12-6-1
0.597
1-5-0
12-6-1
--
6.
Hobart
8-4-4
0.573
1-2-1
8-4-4
5
7.
Vassar
9-4-3
0.561
0-2-1
9-4-3
8
8.
Brockport State
10-6-3
0.583
0-3-1
10-6-3
7

MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Messiah
17-1-0
0.595
7-1-0
17-1-0
1
2.
Lycoming
16-2-0
0.548
4-1-0
16-2-0
2
3.
Johns Hopkins
14-1-2
0.545
3-1-0
14-1-2
4
4.
Gettysburg
13-4-0
0.545
2-2-0
13-4-0
3
5.
Dickinson
10-5-2
0.587
4-4-0
10-5-2
5
6.
Drew
17-0-1
0.521
3-0-0
17-0-1
6
7.
Haverford
10-4-3
0.591
4-4-0
10-4-3
7
8.
Franklin and Marshall
9-5-2
0.596
2-4-2
9-5-2
--
9.
Lebanon Valley
11-4-1
0.535
1-2-0
11-4-1
8
10.
Elizabethtown
10-6-1
0.576
0-4-0
10-6-1
10

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Lynchburg
14-1-2
0.577
2-1-1
15-1-2
1
2.
Rowan
16-2-1
0.594
2-2-0
16-2-1
2
3.
Oglethorpe
14-1-1
0.566
2-1-0
14-2-1
3
4.
Washington and Lee
13-3-1
0.564
3-1-0
13-3-1
4
5.
Rutgers-Newark
18-2-0
0.558
1-2-0
18-2-0
6
6.
Emory
11-5-1
0.636
2-3-1
11-5-1
5
7.
Christopher Newport
12-2-1
0.540
1-2-0
13-2-1
7
8.
Mary Washington
13-4-1
0.552
1-3-0
13-4-1
8
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 01, 2017, 04:52:26 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
John Carroll
15-2-1
0.592
3-2-1
15-2-1
1
2.
Otterbein
15-2-0
0.560
4-1-0
15-2-0
3
3.
Kenyon
14-2-2
0.572
2-2-1
14-2-2
2
4.
Carnegie Mellon
10-3-3
0.636
2-3-3
10-3-3
4
5.
Thomas More
12-4-2
0.567
1-1-1
12-4-2
7
6.
Capital
11-6-1
0.586
3-4-0
11-6-1
8
7.
Ohio Northern
12-5-2
0.574
2-3-0
12-5-2
5
8.
Heidelberg
11-4-1
0.541
2-3-0
11-4-1
6

CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Chicago
15-2-0
0.641
6-2-0
15-2-0
2
2.
North Park
14-1-1
0.569
2-0-0
15-1-1
1
3.
Dominican
12-4-0
0.526
2-1-0
12-4-0
--
4.
Calvin
17-0-1
0.511
--
17-0-1
4
5.
Benedictine
14-5-0
0.532
0-3-0
14-5-0
3
6.
Aurora
12-7-0
0.531
1-5-0
12-8-0
--

NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
St. Thomas
17-1-0
0.562
3-1-0
17-1-0
1
2.
Loras
12-5-0
0.572
2-1-0
12-5-0
2
3.
Luther
10-4-4
0.577
1-3-2
10-4-4
5
4.
St. Norbert
14-3-2
0.526
2-2-0
14-3-2
6
5.
UW-Platteville
11-3-2
0.561
0-2-1
11-3-2
3
6.
Simpson
15-2-2
0.524
0-2-0
15-2-2
7
7.
Macalester
10-5-2
0.557
0-2-1
10-5-2
4

WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 01, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Trinity (Texas)
18-1-0
0.529
5-1-0
18-1-0
1
2.
Colorado College
11-3-4
0.540
2-2-2
11-3-5
4
3.
Mary Hardin-Baylor
13-2-1
0.529
1-1-1
13-2-1
3
4.
Texas-Tyler
10-2-2
0.543
1-1-0
10-2-3
2
5.
Redlands
13-3-2
0.543
0-3-0
13-3-2
5
6.
University of Dallas
11-3-2
0.497
1-2-1
12-3-2
6
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 02, 2017, 11:02:24 AM
NE and Mid-Atlantic Regions will get the most bids this year depending on the outcomes of the conference tournaments. The East, GL, and South Atlantic will follow. The Central, North and West bring up the rear. The West is a nightmare and will be lucky to be represented at all after Trinity and Colorado College. Once the AQ's begin to take shape then we will be able to see which regions will get what but I can't see the West getting many at all this year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
Pool C's -- Amherst, Cortland St, John Carroll.....only 16 spots left...or is it 15?  The bubble is already getting smaller and tighter.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 11:21:48 PM
Falconer, I'll go with Schilling...after considerable research.  You failed to mention Kenyon won 2-1 in 1996!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 03, 2017, 07:47:15 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
Pool C's -- Amherst, Cortland St, John Carroll.....only 16 spots left...or is it 15?  The bubble is already getting smaller and tighter.
Lycoming or Messiah will get one from.mid Atlantic after Saturday game.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: backyarddawg on November 03, 2017, 08:01:36 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
Pool C's -- Amherst, Cortland St, John Carroll.....only 16 spots left...or is it 15?  The bubble is already getting smaller and tighter.


Pool C
John Carroll, Amherst, Cortland.

I believe Brandeis and Buffalo State get one so five.

Tonight either Hopkins or Dickinson will get one.

6 will be gone after tonight leaving 13 spots.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 03, 2017, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 11:21:48 PM
Falconer, I'll go with Schilling...after considerable research.  You failed to mention Kenyon won 2-1 in 1996!
Nicely done, Paul, nicely done. As far as I know, Messiah and Kenyon have played just twice, with the other game (as you know) being in the tournament just a few years ago. Both were in Grantham. 1996 was at or near the end of the coaching career of the late Layton Shoemaker, a longtime friend of mine. Because one of his players (Schlling) had a brother (it might be a twin, but I don't trust my memory on that part) who played for Kenyon, Layton promised to arrange a game. I love that: it's what all college sports should be about, namely, the cultivation of relationships that last and enrich us.

Thanks for taking the challenge. I enjoyed offering it. If you ever have one for me, I'll try to do as well as you did with it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: backyarddawg on November 03, 2017, 08:39:37 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 03, 2017, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 11:21:48 PM
Falconer, I'll go with Schilling...after considerable research.  You failed to mention Kenyon won 2-1 in 1996!
Nicely done, Paul, nicely done. As far as I know, Messiah and Kenyon have played just twice, with the other game (as you know) being in the tournament just a few years ago. Both were in Grantham. 1996 was at or near the end of the coaching career of the late Layton Shoemaker, a longtime friend of mine. Because one of his players (Schlling) had a brother (it might be a twin, but I don't trust my memory on that part) who played for Kenyon, Layton promised to arrange a game. I love that: it's what all college sports should be about, namely, the cultivation of relationships that last and enrich us.

Thanks for taking the challenge. I enjoyed offering it. If you ever have one for me, I'll try to do as well as you did with it.


Hope to see the series continue yearly for Messiah vs Ford.  The programs seem to challenge themselves with non-conference schedules so let's hope this stays.  Messiah leads 2-1.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 03, 2017, 08:01:36 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
Pool C's -- Amherst, Cortland St, John Carroll.....only 16 spots left...or is it 15?  The bubble is already getting smaller and tighter.


Pool C
John Carroll, Amherst, Cortland.

I believe Brandeis and Buffalo State get one so five.

Tonight either Hopkins or Dickinson will get one.

6 will be gone after tonight leaving 13 spots.

Now you and rudy are doing a different project, projecting ahead, which also would be interesting.  Obviously at least several more definite Pool Cs are coming, like the Messiah vs Lycoming loser.  I was just counting the ones that already have happened.  I agree Brandeis is a definite.  Not so sure about Buff State.  And some others we might think are sure things could be dependent on outcomes over the next 3 days.  What if Oglethorpe loses.  And if Capital if beats Otterbein, which I would bet on.  OWU could definitely beat Kenyon.  I could go on.  At least a couple of teams that seem like sure fire Pool Cs are going to be left out.

P.S Once you start counting out 18 to 19 Pool Cs and the absolute locks already in place those slots evaporate in a hurry.  Even teams like Kenyon and Otterbein that seem like they should be locks could be in trouble.  Imagine if Springfield also loses, and so on.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 09:43:19 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 03, 2017, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 11:21:48 PM
Falconer, I'll go with Schilling...after considerable research.  You failed to mention Kenyon won 2-1 in 1996!
Nicely done, Paul, nicely done. As far as I know, Messiah and Kenyon have played just twice, with the other game (as you know) being in the tournament just a few years ago. Both were in Grantham. 1996 was at or near the end of the coaching career of the late Layton Shoemaker, a longtime friend of mine. Because one of his players (Schlling) had a brother (it might be a twin, but I don't trust my memory on that part) who played for Kenyon, Layton promised to arrange a game. I love that: it's what all college sports should be about, namely, the cultivation of relationships that last and enrich us.

Thanks for taking the challenge. I enjoyed offering it. If you ever have one for me, I'll try to do as well as you did with it.

I can't imagine I'll come up with one that good, but I'll try. 

Here's one....without looking, can you name the minute Kenyon missed the sitter off a cross to take the lead in the 2nd half in 2013?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 03, 2017, 11:30:29 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 03, 2017, 08:01:36 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
Pool C's -- Amherst, Cortland St, John Carroll.....only 16 spots left...or is it 15?  The bubble is already getting smaller and tighter.


Pool C
John Carroll, Amherst, Cortland.

I believe Brandeis and Buffalo State get one so five.

Tonight either Hopkins or Dickinson will get one.

6 will be gone after tonight leaving 13 spots.

Now you and rudy are doing a different project, projecting ahead, which also would be interesting.  Obviously at least several more definite Pool Cs are coming, like the Messiah vs Lycoming loser.  I was just counting the ones that already have happened.  I agree Brandeis is a definite.  Not so sure about Buff State.  And some others we might think are sure things could be dependent on outcomes over the next 3 days.  What if Oglethorpe loses.  And if Capital if beats Otterbein, which I would bet on.  OWU could definitely beat Kenyon.  I could go on.  At least a couple of teams that seem like sure fire Pool Cs are going to be left out.

P.S Once you start counting out 18 to 19 Pool Cs and the absolute locks already in place those slots evaporate in a hurry.  Even teams like Kenyon and Otterbein that seem like they should be locks could be in trouble.  Imagine if Springfield also loses, and so on.

A couple good teams with very good records that may be on the bubble if they lose in the conference finals...Mr Right commented on RUN already. 

RUN vs Rowan
Drew vs ETown

RUN is #5 (out of  8)  in region and Drew is #6 (out of 10).   

For Drew..ahead of them are Messiah, Lyco, Hopkins, Gettysburg, Dickinson
Messiah vs Lyco - one will get AQ and the other at large
Hopkins vs Dickinson in Cent Conf Semis (Friday)
Gettysburg vs F&M (Friday)

Projecting ahead..at least one team ahead of Drew will be in the Cent conference finals (Dickinson/Hopkins winner and possibly 2 if Gettysburg wins).  It would be in Drew's best interest for F&M to NOT win the conference finals!  Of course if they beat ETown then it will not matter.  But I'm sure tonight they would like to see an F&M loss to insure at least one AQ  will go to a team ranked ahead of them just in case they lose their final with ETown.

Just an exercise in looking at the possibilities..maybe pointless right now but for the sake of speculating..what the heck..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on November 03, 2017, 11:35:25 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: backyarddawg on November 03, 2017, 08:01:36 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
Pool C's -- Amherst, Cortland St, John Carroll.....only 16 spots left...or is it 15?  The bubble is already getting smaller and tighter.


Pool C
John Carroll, Amherst, Cortland.

I believe Brandeis and Buffalo State get one so five.

Tonight either Hopkins or Dickinson will get one.

6 will be gone after tonight leaving 13 spots.

Now you and rudy are doing a different project, projecting ahead, which also would be interesting.  Obviously at least several more definite Pool Cs are coming, like the Messiah vs Lycoming loser.  I was just counting the ones that already have happened.  I agree Brandeis is a definite.  Not so sure about Buff State.  And some others we might think are sure things could be dependent on outcomes over the next 3 days.  What if Oglethorpe loses.  And if Capital if beats Otterbein, which I would bet on.  OWU could definitely beat Kenyon.  I could go on.  At least a couple of teams that seem like sure fire Pool Cs are going to be left out.

P.S Once you start counting out 18 to 19 Pool Cs and the absolute locks already in place those slots evaporate in a hurry.  Even teams like Kenyon and Otterbein that seem like they should be locks could be in trouble.  Imagine if Springfield also loses, and so on.

Otterbein reminds me of JCU's 2014 team. Should they be in if they lose, probably, will they be in, probably.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 11:42:22 AM
rudy, your scenarios provide a perfect example that could lead to panic for Pool Cs.  Will anyone be shocked if F&M wins the AQ?  Or shocked if several more favorites falter in their conference tourneys?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 03, 2017, 01:19:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 09:43:19 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 03, 2017, 08:35:20 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2017, 11:21:48 PM
Falconer, I'll go with Schilling...after considerable research.  You failed to mention Kenyon won 2-1 in 1996!
Nicely done, Paul, nicely done. As far as I know, Messiah and Kenyon have played just twice, with the other game (as you know) being in the tournament just a few years ago. Both were in Grantham. 1996 was at or near the end of the coaching career of the late Layton Shoemaker, a longtime friend of mine. Because one of his players (Schlling) had a brother (it might be a twin, but I don't trust my memory on that part) who played for Kenyon, Layton promised to arrange a game. I love that: it's what all college sports should be about, namely, the cultivation of relationships that last and enrich us.

Thanks for taking the challenge. I enjoyed offering it. If you ever have one for me, I'll try to do as well as you did with it.

I can't imagine I'll come up with one that good, but I'll try. 

Here's one....without looking, can you name the minute Kenyon missed the sitter off a cross to take the lead in the 2nd half in 2013?

The way you word this, it must have been pretty late. Was that an OT game? I can't do better without looking it up...

One of the nice things about being a Falcon fan is that you get to watch some terrific games with top teams, in which both teams bring their A game and either one has one or two opportunities to put the other side away. I recall that game with Kenyon as a barn burner, so I'll go with this hunch and wait for the full truth from you.   :D

Obviously, Paul, you and other Kenyon fans would have been just a small group in the Falcon ocean, but I hope you felt welcome nonetheless. I've often overheard cordial exchanges involving fans of the visitors, and I've sometimes made a point myself of greeting parents and friends of visiting players. A lot of us respect people who've driven some distance to support their team, and we even (if often quietly) appreciate good, clean plays by the visiting team--and good strategies well implemented. It's a very intelligent crowd, after decades of watching beautiful futbol.

(Etown games are the exception, since many people on both sides wear shirts indicating their loyalties and carry bunches of marshmallows to throw at someone's face. The fans can get heated. I never throw stuff, but I do wear something appropriate and always get hit several times. I could do without the marshmallows.)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
Falconer, from the Messiah recap.....

"Kenyon even played as the aggressor for a long stretch of the frame, and came close to going ahead in the 73rd minute."

I've said this before, but that evening, even in defeat where an incredible victory seemed possible, was one of the highlights of all of my time following soccer and certainly one of the top 2-3 experiences in all of the years of watching my own kid play.  It was a bitterly cold evening, like colder than I've ever been at a game (as there was a rare arctic mass over all of the Northeast and I believe much of the Midwest), but the atmosphere was fantastic.  I'll likely never find myself at Shoemaker Field again but it was an experience I'll never forget.

BTW, Ramirez scored the winner in the 89th minute off a failed Kenyon clearance.  McCarty I think intentionally kept Kenyon from subbing as the Lords were exhausted.  All American CB Justice had saved a Thompson ball off the line just a few minutes before.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 03, 2017, 01:37:38 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
Falconer, from the Messiah recap.....

"Kenyon even played as the aggressor for a long stretch of the frame, and came close to going ahead in the 73rd minute."

I've said this before, but that evening, even in defeat where an incredible victory seemed possible, was one of the highlights of all of my time following soccer and certainly one of the top 2-3 experiences in all of the years of watching my own kid play.  It was a bitterly cold evening, like colder than I've ever been at a game (as there was a rare arctic mass over all of the Northeast and I believe much of the Midwest), but the atmosphere was fantastic.  I'll likely never find myself at Shoemaker Field again but it was an experience I'll never forget.

BTW, Ramirez scored the winner in the 89th minute off a failed Kenyon clearance.  McCarty I think intentionally kept Kenyon from subbing as the Lords were exhausted.  All American CB Justice had saved a Thompson ball off the line just a few minutes before.

Thank you very much for those memories, Paul. Ramirez was a rare talent. An older brother played winger for the Falcons, but wasn't quite as good. I think there may be another brother who played at a very high level in central America, but I am not confident of that part.

I was actually on Kenyon's field once, but not for a game. I had business a few miles away, stayed with a friend who is a triathlete, and we cycled through the campus one spring morning.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 03, 2017, 02:03:15 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
Falconer, from the Messiah recap.....

"Kenyon even played as the aggressor for a long stretch of the frame, and came close to going ahead in the 73rd minute."

I've said this before, but that evening, even in defeat where an incredible victory seemed possible, was one of the highlights of all of my time following soccer and certainly one of the top 2-3 experiences in all of the years of watching my own kid play.  It was a bitterly cold evening, like colder than I've ever been at a game (as there was a rare arctic mass over all of the Northeast and I believe much of the Midwest), but the atmosphere was fantastic.  I'll likely never find myself at Shoemaker Field again but it was an experience I'll never forget.

BTW, Ramirez scored the winner in the 89th minute off a failed Kenyon clearance.  McCarty I think intentionally kept Kenyon from subbing as the Lords were exhausted.  All American CB Justice had saved a Thompson ball off the line just a few minutes before.

I was also at that game and can confirm that it was as exciting as it was cold.  Both games (the next night against F&M) were absolutely frigid.   

Have you seen the video recap?  It shows the cross that you might be talking about.  I remember holding my breath against a foul being called on that play. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 02:16:15 PM
Thanks Dave B...I sent you a PM.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 03, 2017, 06:11:13 PM
The SCAC may only get one school to the NCAAs after Colorado College loses in the opening round of the SCAC tourney to the #6 (of 6) seeded Southwestern, 0-1.  The Tigers fall to (11-4-5); Southwestern improves to 6-11-3.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2017, 10:01:35 PM
And the upsets keep rolling in....Hopkins out and a very likely Pool C...F&M leading Gettysburg and likely would be even odds or better versus Dickinson...Colorado College out....St Norbert out.....Oglethorpe does manage to get by Berry in OT but will be challenged hard by Centre.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: The Cove on November 04, 2017, 08:47:24 AM
I was also at that game and can confirm that it was as exciting as it was cold.  Both games (the next night against F&M) were absolutely frigid.   

Have you seen the video recap?  It shows the cross that you might be talking about.  I remember holding my breath against a foul being called on that play.
[/quote]

As a fellow attendee, one of the sights of that game was seeing Sam Justice, with a clear hamstring injury (torn?) hobbling to the sideline to take off his wrapping and return to play. I think he played 90 minutes on that injury and kept Kenyon close in what could have been another route for Messiah. Especially after Messiah's early round scores and after they scored a brace before Kenyon even touched the ball.

Also worth noting: Jordan Glassman was injured for the game and Kenyon ended up playing with only one striker — unheard of for them as of late.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2017, 01:21:42 PM
Bubble teams alert..Trinity TX down 1-0 10 minutes into 2nd Half...Mayhem erupts as Trinity pushing #'s forward and Austin gets a breakaway going the other way. Trinity's GK comes charging out and prevents a goal by pushing him down. Gets a straight red. Trinity down to 10 men.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 04, 2017, 02:00:20 PM
Trinity ties it at 84' on a PK from Christian Sakshaug.  4' to play.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 04, 2017, 02:07:58 PM
And wins after a handball is called in the box with 13.9 seconds remaining.    Brady Johnston with the game winner. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 04, 2017, 02:51:01 PM
OWU over Kenyon in PKs, with both goalkeepers saving multiple PKs (OWU swapped its keeper out IIRC.) 3 OWU misses and 4 Kenyon misses — not sure if it was good goalkeeping or lackluster penalties? Think it might have been a bit of both.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2017, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 04, 2017, 02:51:01 PM
OWU over Kenyon in PKs, with both goalkeepers saving multiple PKs (OWU swapped its keeper out IIRC.) 3 OWU misses and 4 Kenyon misses — not sure if it was good goalkeeping or lackluster penalties? Think it might have been a bit of both.

Another freak show for Kenyon.  Never seen a team miss their first 3 PKs (OWU) and win.  Kenyon had a 2 goal lead with 2 kicks left.  Carmona has got to take a friggin PK.  Sickening.  Kenyon had chance after chance after chance, especially in the OTs. 5 corners in a row at one point.  Breakaways.  OWU karma strikes again.  Give OWU credit.  Played a smart game.  Fought hard.  Gave themselves a chance.  At least Kenyon didn't lose but there is just no way to explain this.  Hats off to Lowry.  By far the best player on the field and almost took the game in his own hands going coast to coast a couple of times and of course buried his PK after OWU got back to even.

P.S. Kenyon shots 18-8 and corners 11-1.  Unreal.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 04, 2017, 03:51:42 PM
MIAC: 3 goals in 84 seconds. St. Thomas 4-2 up on Macalester with around 10 left.

Landmark: Drew up 3-1 on Etown, around 15 left.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on November 04, 2017, 04:23:32 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2017, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 04, 2017, 02:51:01 PM
OWU over Kenyon in PKs, with both goalkeepers saving multiple PKs (OWU swapped its keeper out IIRC.) 3 OWU misses and 4 Kenyon misses — not sure if it was good goalkeeping or lackluster penalties? Think it might have been a bit of both.

Another freak show for Kenyon.  Never seen a team miss their first 3 PKs (OWU) and win.  Kenyon had a 2 goal lead with 2 kicks left.  Carmona has got to take a friggin PK.  Sickening.  Kenyon had chance after chance after chance, especially in the OTs. 5 corners in a row at one point.  Breakaways.  OWU karma strikes again.  Give OWU credit.  Played a smart game.  Fought hard.  Gave themselves a chance.  At least Kenyon didn't lose but there is just no way to explain this.  Hats off to Lowry.  By far the best player on the field and almost took the game in his own hands going coast to coast a couple of times and of course buried his PK after OWU got back to even.

P.S. Kenyon shots 18-8 and corners 11-1.  Unreal.

First half was balanced - Kenyon's production fell off significantly with 20 min left - 9 subs will do that to a team. Second half OWU dropped 5+ into defensive positions - seemed they were looking to KFTM midway through the second half.

PK's are tough for everyone. Today's kicks were very poor - one good save by the OWU keeper - but most saves were on shots the were 5 yards from the midpoint of the goal line.

OWU's keeper played his best game of the year - of the games I've seen. I'd say Kenyon had maybe 4 quality chances - OWU keeper made 2-3 very good saves.

And another Pool C bid bites the dust . . .
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 04, 2017, 09:28:24 PM
Cal-Lutheran over Redlands in 2OT.

Messiah gets one back with 1:44 left...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 09:35:17 PM
DOWN GOES MESSIAH!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2017, 09:39:26 PM
Wow I did not catch that game..So each team won on the others field. I will say Lycoming is a beast of a team and can beat any D3 team that I have seen this year...They press like mad and have the physical horses to wear u down. That would be a team that is kinda flying under the national radar
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:18:07 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2017, 09:39:26 PM
Wow I did not catch that game..So each team won on the others field. I will say Lycoming is a beast of a team and can beat any D3 team that I have seen this year...They press like mad and have the physical horses to wear u down. That would be a team that is kinda flying under the national radar

It all depends on the officiating, Mr Right. If they get someone who "let's them play," I.e., doesn't call blatant fouls and doesn't card players for knocking people down without playing for the ball, they can beat absolutely anyone, anywhere, whether the name on the jersey is Messiah, Calvin, Chicago, or Tufts. Get top level officiating, and it's another game entirely.later round tournament games are usually very well officiated. It will be interesting to see how far they can go, if that tendency holds. It usually helps Messiah--and it should. Rules are supposed to be enforced. consistent failure to do so is, in effect, a decision to favor one team over another. Yes,let them play--but card deliberate fouling, so that if it doesn't stop someone will be playing a man down.

I guess you mean that Lyco was under your radar, since they have been ranked very high all season, with some impressive wins. I think they will be 5-1 RvR after tonight, and Messiah 7-2. But those numbers of course aren't necessarily stable. This year, at least, I think both teams would be sitting atop NESCAC. Great year for Lyco, excellent year for Messiah, and a down year in New England. Of course we know who will win it all: Amherst, right, since they lost in the quarter final?  ;D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on November 04, 2017, 10:42:17 PM
Lycoming won the conference in 2015 and 2013
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

Messiah lost to Lycoming in the 2013 semi-finals (at home) and also in 2015 (at Lycoming).  I don't view 2013 the same way, because Lycoming packed it in, parked the bus and made it to PKs.  But in 2015 and tonight they played Messiah straight up.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn’t win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don’t “let em play” are usually the ones who “don’t get assigned games” i hear it all too often, parents can’t stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

Messiah lost to Lycoming in the 2013 semi-finals (at home) and also in 2015 (at Lycoming).  I don't view 2013 the same way, because Lycoming packed it in, parked the bus and made it to PKs.  But in 2015 and tonight they played Messiah straight up.

i meant Lycoming reminds me of my 2013 team arnold rutgers Camden
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

Messiah lost to Lycoming in the 2013 semi-finals (at home) and also in 2015 (at Lycoming).  I don't view 2013 the same way, because Lycoming packed it in, parked the bus and made it to PKs.  But in 2015 and tonight they played Messiah straight up.

i meant Lycoming reminds me of my 2013 team arnold rutgers Camden

I know.  I was just answering the very first question in your post.

Not that this has anything to do with your point (which I agree with), but Lycoming came to R-C in the first round of the NCAA that year (2013).  I think you beat them 4-0.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 11:03:09 PM
Quote from: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

Messiah lost to Lycoming in the 2013 semi-finals (at home) and also in 2015 (at Lycoming).  I don't view 2013 the same way, because Lycoming packed it in, parked the bus and made it to PKs.  But in 2015 and tonight they played Messiah straight up.

i meant Lycoming reminds me of my 2013 team arnold rutgers Camden

I know.  I was just answering the very first question in your post.

Not that this has anything to do with your point (which I agree with), but Lycoming came to R-C in the first round of the NCAA that year (2013).  I think you beat them 4-0.

yeah it was second round 4-0. i think it was 4-0 within 20 minutes then we got benched. but i remember them being very big and athletic. we just played the same exact way they did but a lot better and they couldn't really do much. it's funny bc we beat York in the round of 32 3-1 that year as well and they also beat Messiah. Montclair also played messiah and lost 4-2 i think.

i think Lycomings rise is absoluely amazing and awesome for their program.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 11:16:16 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 11:03:09 PM
Quote from: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:59:32 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: Dave B on November 04, 2017, 10:43:40 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

Messiah lost to Lycoming in the 2013 semi-finals (at home) and also in 2015 (at Lycoming).  I don't view 2013 the same way, because Lycoming packed it in, parked the bus and made it to PKs.  But in 2015 and tonight they played Messiah straight up.

i meant Lycoming reminds me of my 2013 team arnold rutgers Camden

I know.  I was just answering the very first question in your post.

Not that this has anything to do with your point (which I agree with), but Lycoming came to R-C in the first round of the NCAA that year (2013).  I think you beat them 4-0.

yeah it was second round 4-0. i think it was 4-0 within 20 minutes then we got benched. but i remember them being very big and athletic. we just played the same exact way they did but a lot better and they couldn't really do much. it's funny bc we beat York in the round of 32 3-1 that year as well and they also beat Messiah. Montclair also played messiah and lost 4-2 i think.

i think Lycomings rise is absoluely amazing and awesome for their program.

2013 was the first year for their current coach and they did well, but I don't think they were over .500 by much.  But he has done a great job with recruiting and yes, they've really come a long way.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2017, 12:48:05 AM
North Park adds the CCIW tournament trophy to the CCIW championship trophy proper, as the Vikings took down Carthage tonight, 4-0. NPU will now sweat out the next 36 hours, waiting to see whether or not the Vikings will host next weekend or have to go on the road.

Quote from: Mr.Right on October 18, 2017, 10:07:03 PM
North Park beats Chicago 1-0. Chicago looked the better side but did not play their best game at least from what I saw in the 2nd Half. That loss really will not hurt them at all as it might affect hosting in later NCAA rounds but that North Park side can be beaten and I assume will be beaten within the next two weeks in conference or out.

Over the past two and a half weeks since NPU beat Chicago, the Vikings have played five matches and won them all.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: futballfan20 on November 05, 2017, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.

Lycoming plays a fast physical game regardless of who they play and that was no different tonight. To suggest a "Hack a Shaq" game or the post in the mid-Atlantic thread of targeting a certain player is, at best, making excuses for a dissapointing loss. While I will admit that the officiating was very poor this game Lycoming scored on two set pieces and played a very tough defensive game and that was why the result was what it was. Lyco's center back #23 who was snubbed of the Defensive MVP in the commonwealth  played a very tough game against Messiahs offense and put a goal away himself. Refs should not play a factor in the result of a match and there were no blatant missed calls that drastically changes the game. Unlike in the first match up in Williamsport where the ref missed two potential hand balls in the box and a Lycomings forward getting kicked in the face on a clear goal scoring opportunity. I understand opposing fan bases will always disagree on calls throughout the game. But Lycoming plays hard, not dirty and there is a big difference. Either way hopefully both teams will be playing for the next couple weeks and who knows there might be a chapter 3.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 08:25:48 AM
Quote from: futballfan20 on November 05, 2017, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.

Lycoming plays a fast physical game regardless of who they play and that was no different tonight. To suggest a "Hack a Shaq" game or the post in the mid-Atlantic thread of targeting a certain player is, at best, making excuses for a dissapointing loss. While I will admit that the officiating was very poor this game Lycoming scored on two set pieces and played a very tough defensive game and that was why the result was what it was. Lyco's center back #23 who was snubbed of the Defensive MVP in the commonwealth  played a very tough game against Messiahs offense and put a goal away himself. Refs should not play a factor in the result of a match and there were no blatant missed calls that drastically changes the game. Unlike in the first match up in Williamsport where the ref missed two potential hand balls in the box and a Lycomings forward getting kicked in the face on a clear goal scoring opportunity. I understand opposing fan bases will always disagree on calls throughout the game. But Lycoming plays hard, not dirty and there is a big difference. Either way hopefully both teams will be playing for the next couple weeks and who knows there might be a chapter 3.

that type of play is mistaken as dirty. there are very few teams that actually go out there and try to hurt you or play dirty. we dealt with it all year
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 05, 2017, 08:58:07 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 08:25:48 AM
Quote from: futballfan20 on November 05, 2017, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn’t win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don’t “let em play” are usually the ones who “don’t get assigned games” i hear it all too often, parents can’t stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.

Lycoming plays a fast physical game regardless of who they play and that was no different tonight. To suggest a "Hack a Shaq" game or the post in the mid-Atlantic thread of targeting a certain player is, at best, making excuses for a dissapointing loss. While I will admit that the officiating was very poor this game Lycoming scored on two set pieces and played a very tough defensive game and that was why the result was what it was. Lyco's center back #23 who was snubbed of the Defensive MVP in the commonwealth  played a very tough game against Messiahs offense and put a goal away himself. Refs should not play a factor in the result of a match and there were no blatant missed calls that drastically changes the game. Unlike in the first match up in Williamsport where the ref missed two potential hand balls in the box and a Lycomings forward getting kicked in the face on a clear goal scoring opportunity. I understand opposing fan bases will always disagree on calls throughout the game. But Lycoming plays hard, not dirty and there is a big difference. Either way hopefully both teams will be playing for the next couple weeks and who knows there might be a chapter 3.

that type of play is mistaken as dirty. there are very few teams that actually go out there and try to hurt you or play dirty. we dealt with it all year

If you read my words carefully, you will see that I made no accusation that anyone on Lycoming's team last night was trying to hurt anyone. Had I concluded that from seeing the game, I would have said so in clear, unambiguous language, and I'd have identified players by number. I have seen that--probably all of us have--but I certainly didn't see it last night. Nor did I expect to. That's all for the good.

However, there were numerous cheap shots, in which people were run over, pulled down, or pushed down in ways that did not simply result from going for the ball--in several instances, the ball itself just wasn't part of the act. Many of those plays were seen by the officials and simply ignored. My anger was directed at the officiating, and properly so. A decent job of officiating can stop that stuff entirely or mostly, but such competence wasn't on display last night. That's all for the bad.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on November 05, 2017, 10:41:23 AM
Last 4 years of watching DIII soccer, 52 years on the field, 9 red cads as a player (that I can remember), 30 years as a HS,college and USSF referee: Charging is an under-called foul in college soccer.  Said another way - taking the body first, taking the body while the ball is "not within playing distance" - happens.  "Within playing distance" is defined by each referee, and the higher the stakes of a particular game, the more the referee "let's them play".

Earlier this year I posted a link in another discussion - of the Tufts Calvin game.  Somewhere about 15 minutes in a Tuft's player runs through a Calvin player, thumps his chest looking over the fallen player - referee doesn't flinch.  There's your definition - on this day, with this ref.  Would I have called a foul?  Probably.

As players go through their 4 years: freshman sit on the ground, arms extended, palms facing up - staring at the ref.  Ain't getting the call buddy - welcome to college soccer.  Freshman and sophomores lead their teams in YC for dissent - still not going to get the call buddy.  Hopefully by the time they become juniors they figure it out.  Parents of country club soccer players bemoan the loss of "the beautiful game" - how their U17 and U18 teams would tika-taka their way through opponents.  To be sure there are moments when teams can play pretty.  But from here on out - don't count on it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: RetiredWarrior on November 05, 2017, 11:33:53 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 05, 2017, 08:58:07 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 08:25:48 AM
Quote from: futballfan20 on November 05, 2017, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.

Lycoming plays a fast physical game regardless of who they play and that was no different tonight. To suggest a "Hack a Shaq" game or the post in the mid-Atlantic thread of targeting a certain player is, at best, making excuses for a dissapointing loss. While I will admit that the officiating was very poor this game Lycoming scored on two set pieces and played a very tough defensive game and that was why the result was what it was. Lyco's center back #23 who was snubbed of the Defensive MVP in the commonwealth  played a very tough game against Messiahs offense and put a goal away himself. Refs should not play a factor in the result of a match and there were no blatant missed calls that drastically changes the game. Unlike in the first match up in Williamsport where the ref missed two potential hand balls in the box and a Lycomings forward getting kicked in the face on a clear goal scoring opportunity. I understand opposing fan bases will always disagree on calls throughout the game. But Lycoming plays hard, not dirty and there is a big difference. Either way hopefully both teams will be playing for the next couple weeks and who knows there might be a chapter 3.

that type of play is mistaken as dirty. there are very few teams that actually go out there and try to hurt you or play dirty. we dealt with it all year

If you read my words carefully, you will see that I made no accusation that anyone on Lycoming's team last night was trying to hurt anyone. Had I concluded that from seeing the game, I would have said so in clear, unambiguous language, and I'd have identified players by number. I have seen that--probably all of us have--but I certainly didn't see it last night. Nor did I expect to. That's all for the good.

However, there were numerous cheap shots, in which people were run over, pulled down, or pushed down in ways that did not simply result from going for the ball--in several instances, the ball itself just wasn't part of the act. Many of those plays were seen by the officials and simply ignored. My anger was directed at the officiating, and properly so. A decent job of officiating can stop that stuff entirely or mostly, but such competence wasn't on display last night. That's all for the bad.

I don't want to comment on the officiating too much because it is hard to say from a biased perspective. But I do want to point out on play in the first half, if I believe correctly. It was in the middle of the field on Lycoming's half and one of the Messiah players went two feet, studs up, straight through one of the Lycoming players. It is not the actual act that got under my skin perhaps because Lycoming admittedly had some hard slide tackles as well... but the fact that the ref didn't give clear yellow, and on a different day a possible red. The ref also proceeded to joke and laugh and then fist bump the Messiah player. Through the own admittance of the Messiah commentators it was a very unprofessional passage of play. I didn't even think much of it until the Messiah commentators pointed it out, and fair play to them for being unbiased for that one play.

My point being there were uncalled plays both ways. Yes, Lycoming is very physical and isn't afraid to take a card... but it is never out of intent to hurt another player. I can promise you that and to say that is a unfair and unknowledgeable because no one knows these kids well enough to make that kind of strong statement. 

They went into Grantham and played their game. They didn't allow Messiah to get into a rhythm and it was the key to their victory. On the point that they sat in after the first 2 goals... DUH!!!! That's how they play! Defend and press un-relentlessly, get a goal, defend some more and wait for the opponent to expose themselves trying to go forward, and score more on their deadly counter. They are not concerned with possession or making 1,000 passes, they care about WINNING.

Congrats to Lycoming! Can't wait to possibly see this as a rematch in a final 4 or elite 8 game!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 04:05:57 PM
Quote from: Falconer on November 05, 2017, 08:58:07 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 08:25:48 AM
Quote from: futballfan20 on November 05, 2017, 01:39:48 AM
Quote from: Falconer on November 04, 2017, 10:45:30 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
when was the last time Messiah didn't win the conference ..? his lycominng team resembles the way RUC played in 2013. press hard, getting stuck in, and work your *** off or sit the bench. this could be their year for a final 4 run. they just proved they have it. i would love to see lycoming play in the NJAC.

when it comes to reffing the ones who don't "let em play" are usually the ones who "don't get assigned games" i hear it all too often, parents can't stand seeing a high intensity physical game.

As I said the other day, Lycoming had nothing to prove before coming to Grantham tonight. They are as good this year as anyone in the country. It had occurred to me to suggest that they'd fit right in as an NJAC team, but I felt I should leave that hornet's nest untouched this time. Many here will recall the Rowan-Lyco game in 2016 as just another day in the NJAC--is this not so?

As for physical play, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, as long as it's not dirty. But, it should be called for what it is. When NBA teams would play "hack a Shaque," the fouls were called and free throws were taken. Teams knew there would be a penalty for playing that way, and they took a calculated risk. All well and good. That doesn't favor one team over another, as long as the fouls are called on both ends. In soccer, however, so much depends on what a given official will choose not to see. That's not just, IMO. Let a team decide to mug people, if they want to play that way, but let them be penalized with free kicks and (where warranted) cards of bright colors. Not to pull cards when players pull people down or knock them over, without going for the ball (something I saw at lease half a dozen times tonight), is IMO simple incompetence, if not dishonesty. If you think a team is offside, you call it. If you see a team mugging people, you call it. It's pretty simple, or at least it should be. There should be no more hesitation to call fouls and pull cards than there is to call back a play.

Lycoming plays a fast physical game regardless of who they play and that was no different tonight. To suggest a "Hack a Shaq" game or the post in the mid-Atlantic thread of targeting a certain player is, at best, making excuses for a dissapointing loss. While I will admit that the officiating was very poor this game Lycoming scored on two set pieces and played a very tough defensive game and that was why the result was what it was. Lyco's center back #23 who was snubbed of the Defensive MVP in the commonwealth  played a very tough game against Messiahs offense and put a goal away himself. Refs should not play a factor in the result of a match and there were no blatant missed calls that drastically changes the game. Unlike in the first match up in Williamsport where the ref missed two potential hand balls in the box and a Lycomings forward getting kicked in the face on a clear goal scoring opportunity. I understand opposing fan bases will always disagree on calls throughout the game. But Lycoming plays hard, not dirty and there is a big difference. Either way hopefully both teams will be playing for the next couple weeks and who knows there might be a chapter 3.

that type of play is mistaken as dirty. there are very few teams that actually go out there and try to hurt you or play dirty. we dealt with it all year

If you read my words carefully, you will see that I made no accusation that anyone on Lycoming's team last night was trying to hurt anyone. Had I concluded that from seeing the game, I would have said so in clear, unambiguous language, and I'd have identified players by number. I have seen that--probably all of us have--but I certainly didn't see it last night. Nor did I expect to. That's all for the good.

However, there were numerous cheap shots, in which people were run over, pulled down, or pushed down in ways that did not simply result from going for the ball--in several instances, the ball itself just wasn't part of the act. Many of those plays were seen by the officials and simply ignored. My anger was directed at the officiating, and properly so. A decent job of officiating can stop that stuff entirely or mostly, but such competence wasn't on display last night. That's all for the bad.

i was actually agreeing with you as well... lol just saying people view hard physical play as "dirty"
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 04:14:17 PM
probably should've made myself s little more clear. i was reffing state cup finals all day so wasnt around much.

IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM was i saying that Lycoming plays "dirty or cheap" i was not there so i can't even comment on the officiating. what i meant was that some people see hard pressing and hard tackles as "dirty." You could even say most NJAC schools play that way but like i said there are very few kids who play the game to go out and actually hurt people. saw it with umass boston that one year in the NCAAs.

going back and reading what i said i did not infer that Lycoming was dirty. like at all .. not quite sure how you came to that conclusion but i apologize anyway.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2017, 04:25:06 PM
A much better effort from Trinity (TX) who avenge their only defeat of the season in the SCAC championship final, 4-0 over the University of Dallas (13-4-2) on the Crusaders' home field behind a strong effort from backup keeper McCaleb Taylor (6 saves).   Trinity (20-1) should host ASC champion Mary Hardin-Baylor (15-2-1) in another Tiger-Crusader battle.   The teams played earlier in the season with Trinity coming away with a 2-0 victory in the season opener for both squads. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2017, 06:21:23 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 05, 2017, 04:14:17 PM
going back and reading what i said i did not infer that Lycoming was dirty. like at all .. not quite sure how you came to that conclusion but i apologize anyway.

"Imply", not "infer". ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on November 05, 2017, 06:34:27 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 05, 2017, 10:41:23 AM
Last 4 years of watching DIII soccer, 52 years on the field, 9 red cads as a player (that I can remember), 30 years as a HS,college and USSF referee: Charging is an under-called foul in college soccer.  Said another way - taking the body first, taking the body while the ball is "not within playing distance" - happens.  "Within playing distance" is defined by each referee, and the higher the stakes of a particular game, the more the referee "let's them play".

Earlier this year I posted a link in another discussion - of the Tufts Calvin game.  Somewhere about 15 minutes in a Tuft's player runs through a Calvin player, thumps his chest looking over the fallen player - referee doesn't flinch.  There's your definition - on this day, with this ref.  Would I have called a foul?  Probably.

As players go through their 4 years: freshman sit on the ground, arms extended, palms facing up - staring at the ref.  Ain't getting the call buddy - welcome to college soccer.  Freshman and sophomores lead their teams in YC for dissent - still not going to get the call buddy.  Hopefully by the time they become juniors they figure it out.  Parents of country club soccer players bemoan the loss of "the beautiful game" - how their U17 and U18 teams would tika-taka their way through opponents.  To be sure there are moments when teams can play pretty.  But from here on out - don't count on it.

I'm just going to say there's some problems with US soccer and the idea that trucking guys all over the field is "Big Boy" soccer is problematic. I have a similar resume. I had one red card. Never came close as a coach. Refs need to control the game and all too often they let things devolve into who is willing to push the limits of "dirty." That's not about the beautiful game, it's calling the game somewhere near what the rules call for.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on November 05, 2017, 06:59:12 PM
http://d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2017/at-large-analysis-and-predictions

Interesting. Already developed my arguments - let the debates begin . . .
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on November 05, 2017, 07:16:51 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 05, 2017, 06:34:27 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on November 05, 2017, 10:41:23 AM
Last 4 years of watching DIII soccer, 52 years on the field, 9 red cads as a player (that I can remember), 30 years as a HS,college and USSF referee: Charging is an under-called foul in college soccer.  Said another way - taking the body first, taking the body while the ball is "not within playing distance" - happens.  "Within playing distance" is defined by each referee, and the higher the stakes of a particular game, the more the referee "let's them play".

Earlier this year I posted a link in another discussion - of the Tufts Calvin game.  Somewhere about 15 minutes in a Tuft's player runs through a Calvin player, thumps his chest looking over the fallen player - referee doesn't flinch.  There's your definition - on this day, with this ref.  Would I have called a foul?  Probably.

As players go through their 4 years: freshman sit on the ground, arms extended, palms facing up - staring at the ref.  Ain't getting the call buddy - welcome to college soccer.  Freshman and sophomores lead their teams in YC for dissent - still not going to get the call buddy.  Hopefully by the time they become juniors they figure it out.  Parents of country club soccer players bemoan the loss of "the beautiful game" - how their U17 and U18 teams would tika-taka their way through opponents.  To be sure there are moments when teams can play pretty.  But from here on out - don't count on it.

I'm just going to say there's some problems with US soccer and the idea that trucking guys all over the field is "Big Boy" soccer is problematic. I have a similar resume. I had one red card. Never came close as a coach. Refs need to control the game and all too often they let things devolve into who is willing to push the limits of "dirty." That's not about the beautiful game, it's calling the game somewhere near what the rules call for.

Where does it start - with officials calling the muggings on corner kicks or the coaches who teach their players to do it? The coaching pedagogy has embraced the violence - the Thesis of the beautiful game has been challenged by the Antithesis of coaching - do what you need to win. The Synthesis is what we have today. Spain - tika-taka: the player with the most RC in domestic league play? Sergio Ramos - 19 last time I looked.

I chose refereeing versus coaching after my playing days were done because we need(still do) more former players to become refs. I quit college refereeing in my prime - 1992 at age 35 : disgusted with coaches and equally at the referee associations, dominated by guys who never played and had ZERO feel for the game. One guy in central Ohio had a handicapped parking sticker and still does centers in HS district finals!

One person cannot correct the evolution (devolution) of The Game. I do what I can game by game - but competitive coaches willing to look the other way and condone physicality are the problem. And there are more of them than those who want the violence to stop.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 05, 2017, 11:27:00 PM
While we await the formal D3 analysis, here's my take, and I'm surprised because just yesterday I thought there was little room out there for Pool C's.

Locks and virtual locks IMO -- Amherst, Brandeis, Springfield, Midd, Bowdoin.....Messiah, Hopkins....Cortland, UR, Buff St....Rowan, W&L....JCU, Kenyon....

That's 14....

Now come teams with lots of losses, high SOS and or high number of ranked wins, and, IMO, tough to separate....

Dickinson, Gettysburg, Haverford, Conn Coll, Emory, CMU, Capital....and then ONU, Luther...and maybe Colorado Coll or Tex-Tyler...

Anyway, 5 open slots for those teams remaining means there will be surprises.  Frankly, Capital looks surprisingly good for one of those. Strong SOS and 4 ranked wins and 5 wins if OWU ends up ranked.  Compare to Dickinson and Emory for example.

Will be interesting, as always.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 06:32:35 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2017, 11:27:00 PM
While we await the formal D3 analysis, here's my take, and I'm surprised because just yesterday I thought there was little room out there for Pool C's.

Locks and virtual locks IMO -- Amherst, Brandeis, Springfield, Midd, Bowdoin.....Messiah, Hopkins....Cortland, UR, Buff St....Rowan, W&L....JCU, Kenyon....

That's 14....

Now come teams with lots of losses, high SOS and or high number of ranked wins, and, IMO, tough to separate....

Dickinson, Gettysburg, Haverford, Conn Coll, Emory, CMU, Capital....and then ONU, Luther...and maybe Colorado Coll or Tex-Tyler...

Anyway, 5 open slots for those teams remaining means there will be surprises.  Frankly, Capital looks surprisingly good for one of those. Strong SOS and 4 ranked wins and 5 wins if OWU ends up ranked.  Compare to Dickinson and Emory for example.

Will be interesting, as always.

I probably should have included St Norbert and CNU for the on the bubble although I think they are on the wrong side, along with ONU, Luther, and the West teams (although Mr.Right is right that they may throw in an extra West squad for balance and partly on the theory of less opportunities for ranked wins). I think the 5 chosen from 15 to 19 should come from those first 7 teams listed on the bubble.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 06, 2017, 08:01:01 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 04, 2017, 09:35:17 PM
DOWN GOES MESSIAH!

Ah Selection Monday is upon us! Maybe the only good Monday of the year  ;D

Now that tensions have died down and I was able to digest the gravity of the game let me add my opinion on to what we witnessed Saturday night in Grantham. Unbelievable game by two of the very best in the nation. That was as good as any Division 1 soccer game I have watched this year. The Warriors came out flying with intensity that Messiah could not match and it showed with 2 goals in less than 20 minutes. The stat line favored the Warriors through the first 25 minutes, out-shooting Messiah 8-2 and gaining 2-0 advantage on the scoreboard! When was the last time that happened to a Messiah team let alone on their home surface. For the last 15 minutes Messiah finally started to settle in but this may be because of the mass subbing that the Warriors were able to do towards the end of the half. Once again Lycoming's depth was a big advantage over Messiah's small bench.

Onto the second half! Messiah came out gunning as expected and started to push for that first and pivotal goal, but Lycoming answered every charge they threw at them. The 2 CB's for Lycoming were incredible and I don't know if I have seen a duo that good in the back this year. The first time around they were clearly solid players and defenders but they stood out to me during this game. With that being said, the GK for Lycoming also made some crucial saves in the second half after not being challenged once in the first half. I recall him making multiple diving saves as the pressure mounted and he gobbled up everything that came his way. In the 88th minute the Falcons finally got on the board and gave us all an exciting final 2 minutes of the game, but Lycoming closed it out and stood victorious while earning the AQ.

WHAT A GAME!!!!

I see many different posts about the officiating and weather. Keep in mind both teams had to play in the same conditions with the same officials. I actually thought the official did a nice job in the sense that he was consistent. Someone in this thread earlier stated that if he or she calls X a foul and not Y in the first 15 minutes then you know how the game is going to be called and have to adapt to that. Messiah did not adapt well to that style of officiating, which was letting the teams play. I thought he did a good job with keeping the flow of the game going which should have actually benefited the Falcons offense. As for the rain it clearly affected Messiah and not in a good way. But they were not the only team playing on a slick muddy surface so it's hard to blame anything on the rain.

Why did Messiah not throw numbers forward more towards the end of the game? I am sure they were concerned with Lycoming's ability to counter but they were down 2 goals!!! At that point, in my opinion, it's all or nothing. I was disappointed to see Messiah's lack of urgency down the stretch to get back in this game. Or was it Lycoming's ability to shut down the Messiah offense that it just seems like they weren't urgent enough? Regardless, the goal in the final 2 minutes was simply a consolation. All in all Lycoming out played Messiah for 90 minutes and thoroughly earned this victory. I thought it was a magnificent match that had a little bit of everything for the spectators. I would have to say this was the best game I have watched so far this season. And lastly, I feel that both of these teams have the chance to go far in the NCAA tournament. For the sake of the region, I hope one of them wins it all!  :)   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 06, 2017, 08:17:29 AM
Here are 14 teams I think are on the bubble for the final 3 spots. The list is sorted by SOS which seems to be soooo important to the committee. I took a few liberties as I don't think all honestly have a chance, but I included them anyway for comparison sake. You're splitting hairs with many of these, so there will be teams who will feel shafted.

1st   2nd   3rd   School   Record   SoS   RvR   Results   Region
4   5   6   Emory   12-5-1 (.694)   0.641   2-3-1   W3-2 Rochester (H)   SA
3   4   4   Carnegie Mellon   10-4-3 (.676)   0.629   1-3-3   L2-1 Case Western Reserve (A)   GL
6   —   5   Plattsburgh State   13-7-1 (.643)   0.615   2-6-0   W3-1 Cortland State (A); L2-1 Oneonta State (A)   E
7   8   6   Capital   12-7-2 (.619)   0.608   4-5-1   W2-0 Heidelberg (H); T1-1 John Carroll (A); L1-0 Otterbein (A)   GL
5   7   8   Williams   8-3-5 (.656)   0.605   0-3-3   D.N.P.   NE
3   6   7   Connecticut College   9-3-4 (.688)   0.602   2-2-3   D.N.P.   NE
6   5   5   Dickinson   11-6-3 (.625)   0.601   4-6-1   W5-0 Haverford (A); T2-2 Johns Hopkins (A); L1-0 Franklin and Marshall (N)   MA
5   7   7   Haverford   10-5-3 (.639)   0.591   3-5-0   L5-0 Dickinson (H)   MA
2   2   4   Texas-Tyler   11-3-2 (.750)   0.562   1-2-0   W1-0 Texas-Dallas (H); L1-0 Mary Hardin-Baylor (A)   W
3   3   4   Gettysburg   13-5-0 (.722)   0.550   2-4-0   L1-0 Franklin and Marshall (N)   MA
6   5   5   Redlands   14-4-2 (.750)   0.549   0-3-0   W3-0 Pomona-Pitzer (H); L2-1 Cal Lutheran (H)   W
8   7   7   Christopher Newport   13-3-1 (.794)   0.546   1-3-0   W3-0 Salisbury (H); L3-1 Mary Washington (H)   SA
—   3   5   Benedictine   14-6-0 (.700)   0.540   1-4-0   L2-1 Dominican (A)   C
4   6   4   St. Norbert   14-4-2 (.750)   0.529   2-2-0   L2-1 Lake Forest (H)   N

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 06, 2017, 08:24:10 AM
Pool C At-Large Predictions
1. Messiah
2. Amherst
3. Cortland
4. Brandeis
5. Rowan
6. John Carroll
7. Springfield
8. Hopkins
9. Kenyon
10.W&L
11. Bowdoin
12. Rochester
13. Buffalo St
14. Middlebury
15. CT College
16. Dickinson
17. Emory
18. Colorado College
19. Luther
-------------------------------------
Left Out
CMU
Capital
St. Norbert
Gettysburg
ONU
Tx Tyler
CNU
Plattsburgh
Haverford
Heidleberg



Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on November 06, 2017, 08:28:01 AM
With Capital, CMU, and ONU dominating the "Bubble", it is hard to not see one of them getting in and adding to the Great Lakes total. As of right now we have Otterbein, Thomas More, and OWU. JCU and Kenyon are basically locks.

I'm not sure what team makes it (ONU less likely than CMU or Capital), but I could see one of the three in for sure.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2017, 09:11:18 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 06, 2017, 08:24:10 AM
Pool C At-Large Predictions
1. Messiah
2. Amherst
3. Cortland
4. Brandeis
5. Rowan
6. John Carroll
7. Springfield
8. Hopkins
9. Kenyon
10.W&L
11. Bowdoin
12. Rochester
13. Buffalo St
14. Middlebury
15. CT College
16. Dickinson
17. Emory
18. Colorado College
19. Luther
-------------------------------------
Left Out
CMU
St. Norbert
Gettysburg
ONU
Tx Tyler
CNU
Plattsburgh
Haverford
Heidleberg

Can't see CoCo getting a bid after losing to an unheralded Southwestern in the first round of the SCAC tourney.   That is probably the final nail in their coffin - IMO they needed to win that game and U of Dallas in the semis to have a shot.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 06, 2017, 09:35:28 AM
Pool C At-Large Predictions
1. Messiah
2. Amherst
3. Cortland
4. Rowan
5. Brandeis
6. John Carroll
7. Hopkins
8. Springfield
9. W&L
10. Kenyon
11. Buffalo St
12. Bowdoin
13. Rochester
14. Middlebury
15. Dickinson
16. CT College
17. Capital
18. Emory
19. Gettysburg

Bubble Burst
CMU
Plattsburgh
Colorado
Luther

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2017, 01:56:27 PM
OFFICIAL

POOL C At-Large Berths (19)
Amherst
Bowdoin
Brandeis
Buffalo State
Capital
Connecticut College
Cortland State
Dickinson
Emory
John Carroll
Johns Hopkins
Kenyon
Messiah
Middlebury
Rochester
Rowan
Springfield
Texas-Tyler
Washington and Lee

POOL B At-Large Berth (1)
UW-Platteville
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 06, 2017, 01:58:03 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 06, 2017, 01:56:27 PM
POOL C At-Large Berths (19)
Amherst
Bowdoin
Brandeis
Buffalo State
Capital
Connecticut College
Cortland State
Dickinson
Emory
John Carroll
Johns Hopkins
Kenyon
Middlebury
Rochester
Rowan
Springfield
Texas-Tyler
Washington and Lee

And Messiah...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 2xfaux on November 06, 2017, 02:01:22 PM
So both the Messiah men and women are shut out? 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 06, 2017, 02:03:11 PM
Quote from: 2xfaux on November 06, 2017, 02:01:22 PM
So both the Messiah men and women are shut out?

No, they're both in.  The men were left off of the At large list on D3Soccer.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 2xfaux on November 06, 2017, 02:05:39 PM
And the women as well.

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 06, 2017, 02:28:00 PM
Apologies to anyone truly thrown by the initial absence of Messiah men and women in the Pool C berth lists on D3soccer.com, although most probably knew they were in and just were picking up on my mistake. We got them corrected fairly quickly, but slightly embarrassing nonetheless. Just simple human error on my part, a Messiah alum, and completely bizarre and coincidental that it was Messiah mistakenly omitted both times as I had them both on my hand-written list as I watched the announcements, but somehow missed typing them into the webpage initially.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on November 06, 2017, 02:45:48 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 06, 2017, 02:28:00 PM
Apologies to anyone truly thrown by the initial absence of Messiah men and women in the Pool C berth lists on D3soccer.com, although most probably knew they were in and just were picking up on my mistake. We got them corrected fairly quickly, but slightly embarrassing nonetheless. Just simple human error on my part, a Messiah alum, and completely bizarre and coincidental that it was Messiah mistakenly omitted both times as I had them both on my hand-written list as I watched the announcements, but somehow missed typing them into the webpage initially.

That's ok.  We know you were just checking to see if we were paying attention.   ;D

And - thanks for all you do on the website.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 06, 2017, 02:56:15 PM
Also, while I am one here, let me say "Job well done" to our lead columnist Ryan Harmanis on his at-large predictions (http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/ryan-harmanis/2017/at-large-analysis-and-predictions).  He basically nailed 17 or 18 of the 19 at-large selections, depending on how you want to score it with the 3 of 6 Pick 'em he offered for the final bubble teams.  The miss was going with Gettysburg instead of Texas-Tyler.  If an at-large was going to come from the West (with geography/bracketing being weighed in addition to merit for the final couple selections), Colorado College seemed to be highest-ranked Pool C option, but on second thought Colorado is in the middle of D-III nowhere making a Texas team a much more attractive selection.  He did one better than I, as I did not think Connecticut would be on the bubble, much less the right side of the bubble.  However, I was convinced that Dickinson was getting selected before Gettysburg, while Ryan saw it as a coin-flip.  In either case, once again the Regional Rankings did a great job fore-shadowing the at-large selections, eliminating significant surprises, and making it relatively easy to successfully predict the selections.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
Paul Newman didn't do too bad.  From posts last night.....

"Locks and virtual locks IMO -- Amherst, Brandeis, Springfield, Midd, Bowdoin.....Messiah, Hopkins....Cortland, UR, Buff St....Rowan, W&L....JCU, Kenyon....

That's 14....

Now come teams with lots of losses, high SOS and or high number of ranked wins, and, IMO, tough to separate....

Dickinson, Gettysburg, Haverford, Conn Coll, Emory, CMU, Capital....and then ONU, Luther...and maybe Colorado Coll or Tex-Tyler...

Frankly, Capital looks surprisingly good for one of those. Strong SOS and 4 ranked wins and 5 wins if OWU ends up ranked.  Compare to Dickinson and Emory for example.

Mr.Right is right that they may throw in an extra West squad for balance and partly on the theory of less opportunities for ranked wins). I think the 5 chosen from 15 to 19 should come from those first 7 teams listed on the bubble."

Paul Newman's initial bracket thoughts....

Starting with my primary region of interest, JCU has just about the toughest draw in the tournament.  Someone early in the season predicted the Blue Streaks would win the national title.  If they do, they will have earned it.  I'll be surprised if they beat OWU, shocked if they beat Calvin, and then triple shocked if they beat Chicago (presuming form holds and no major upsets which of course will happen somewhere in the overall bracket).  That would just get them to the Elite 8, with a team like Lynchburg or Trinity (TX) looming just to get to Greensboro.  Mind you, I watched the JCU OAC tourney game with Capital and was extremely impressed.  They have a handful of real danger players.  JCU is VERY good but the draw is a monster.  With a few exceptions, most teams could lose any game in front of them, and that is certainly true for Kenyon.  I have strong family ties to Transy but I won't be pulling for the Pioneers.  Kenyon beat Otterbein earlier in the season and it's tough to beat a very good team twice.  All that said, I like Kenyon's draw a lot.  Very fair opportunity and I don't see anyone in that whole quadrant that just scares the heck out of me.  In the upper portion of the quad, North Park has a golden opportunity and likely will not have a better chance than they are getting this year.  I don't see a real threat for them until the Elite 8 other than W&L, and W&L has to get there first.  St Thomas has a decent path, although you have to wonder what might happen in a possible 2nd round tilt with under-the-radar but perennial powerhouse Loras.

Elsewhere, a Tufts versus Rowan Sweet Sixteen matchup no doubt at Tufts would be a tasty treat for all of us D3 fans.  But can Rowan get by Johns Hopkins??? Talk about a heck of a 2nd round matchup.  Lycoming has a tricky 2nd round game versus Drew or surging F&M, and then does anyone want to bet against Brandeis surviving the Newark-Bowdoin winner?  A Tufts-Brandeis clash would be a New England classic, and while many are going to pick Lycoming to get through, I'm not sure Tufts is a great matchup for them since Tufts can match and exceed Lycoming's physicality (and Tufts most likely would be at home).  I think Lycoming has to hope they get Rowan or Hopkins instead.

I don't see anyone bothering Messiah much to at least the Elite 8, and even then I don't see a challenger I would bet on.  Messiah has a very attractive draw.  Cortland, Oneonta and Amherst are all good, but I don't see any of them beating Messiah if the Falcons play a reasonably strong game.  How tasty would a Tufts versus Messiah national semi be???

It's put up or shut up time for Chicago.  A good draw at least to the Sweet 16, and then maybe Calvin waiting (although Calvin and OWU tend to alternate years in what has become an almost yearly affair).  Not sure Chicago would be good enough for Calvin and on the other hand likely would have too much firepower for OWU or JCU.  At the bottom of that quad, will Trinity finally break through?  Lynchburg is tough as nails, but they also aren't going to blow teams out so they will be at risk of getting nicked before getting to Trinity, and maybe by the Dickinson- Emory victor. 

My Final Four?  Well, looks like most of us are going to include our own teams, so I'll go with....Kenyon, Trinity, Tufts, Messiah.

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 06, 2017, 08:53:45 PM
I am sorry but I really think Chicago got screwed. They should be sitting right where North Park is and North Park should be where Chicago is. The only reason they are not is because North Park beat them 1-0 about 3 weeks ago. I happened to catch the 2nd Half of that game and Chicago was the better side. I mean I just do not understand how North Park jumped Chicago in the Final ranking without either team losing. Chicago has a significant SOS advantage and RvR advantage. It doesn't make much sense except for 1 game that happened 3 weeks ago that jumped North Park over Chicago this week. Also, the North Park pod looks significantly weaker than any other pod by a long shot.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 06, 2017, 09:05:21 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 06, 2017, 08:53:45 PM
I am sorry but I really think Chicago got screwed. They should be sitting right where North Park is and North Park should be where Chicago is. The only reason they are not is because North Park beat them 1-0 about 3 weeks ago. I happened to catch the 2nd Half of that game and Chicago was the better side. I mean I just do not understand how North Park jumped Chicago in the Final ranking without either team losing. Chicago has a significant SOS advantage and RvR advantage. It doesn't make much sense except for 1 game that happened 3 weeks ago that jumped North Park over Chicago this week. Also, the North Park pod looks significantly weaker than any other pod by a long shot.

I'm in agreement, but I think this will be a good test for Chicago in that they have (less) to lose than last year being on the road. They had what seemed to be a cakewalk to the Final 4 last year and, bad luck against Redlands or not, I still felt they should have won that game. Following that failure, there will be a lot of doubters this year, but the Maroons don't have the same kind of pressure they faced last year being No. 1 and undefeated going into mid-November. I think -- as a result -- Chicago plays with a chip on its shoulder and maybe gets over the hump, although Calvin and North Park would certainly be daunting opponents at any time, not to mention this late in the game (no pun intended).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 09:25:49 PM
Anybody have a read of what D3 team Jonny "Utes" Utah follows? Or, for that matter, robertgoulet?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Caz Bombers on November 06, 2017, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 09:25:49 PM
Anybody have a read of what D3 team Jonny "Utes" Utah follows? Or, for that matter, robertgoulet?

have never seen a soccer-related post from Jonny, but the answer to the first half of your question is Ithaca.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 10:04:31 PM
Quote from: Caz Bombers on November 06, 2017, 09:58:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 09:25:49 PM
Anybody have a read of what D3 team Jonny "Utes" Utah follows? Or, for that matter, robertgoulet?

have never seen a soccer-related post from Jonny, but the answer to the first half of your question is Ithaca.

Thanks!  Must be a good story there!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 06, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 06, 2017, 08:53:45 PM
I am sorry but I really think Chicago got screwed. They should be sitting right where North Park is and North Park should be where Chicago is. The only reason they are not is because North Park beat them 1-0 about 3 weeks ago. I happened to catch the 2nd Half of that game and Chicago was the better side. I mean I just do not understand how North Park jumped Chicago in the Final ranking without either team losing. Chicago has a significant SOS advantage and RvR advantage. It doesn't make much sense except for 1 game that happened 3 weeks ago that jumped North Park over Chicago this week.

Not true.

First of all, by your own admission you only watched the second half. NPU dominated play in the first half, outshooting the Maroons 5-1 and getting the only shot on frame of the half.

Second, the committee had already jumped North Park ahead of Chicago after the Vikings beat the Maroons (Oct. 25 ranking) and then jumped Chicago right back ahead of North Park the following week (Nov. 1 ranking), so this was old news.

Third, the committee made a mistake in forming the previous week's ranking in which it had jumped Chicago ahead of North Park, assigning an RvR win over Aurora that shouldn't have been credited, because Aurora hadn't been ranked the week before -- and (properly) not doing the same for NPU, which had also beaten Aurora. Hey, it happens sometimes.

Fourth, and most importantly, you're only looking at two criteria, SOS (which Chicago clearly dominated) and RvR (in which Chicago does not have a significant advantage; in fact, if you're going by RvR winning percentage, Chicago doesn't have any advantage at all, since the Maroons were 7-2-0 RvR, and the Vikings were 4-0-0 RvR). There are three other primary criteria involved in the process. One is head-to-head, which is in NPU's column. Another is win-loss % against D3 opponents, and NPU wins that criterion, .917 to .889. Finally, there's record vs. D3 common opponents, which favors Chicago, 8-0 to 8-1.

In other words, two criteria clearly favor North Park, and two clearly favor Chicago. I suspect that the committee might have the leeway to interpret the RvR criterion either cumulatively or by winning percentage, as that's the case for the D3 sport that I follow most closely, men's basketball, but I don't know for sure that that's the case. If it's cumulative, Chicago takes it by dint of having played nine regionally-ranked opponents to North Park's four. But if it's winning percentage, then NPU takes the criterion, 1.000 to .777. If the committee doesn't have that leeway, then it's automatically going to go by RvR winning percentage. Regardless, that's how the committee went, anyway, with NPU owning the edge in three of the five criteria. Also, if the committee added any extra weight to one or other of the criteria, it was clearly head-to-head -- particularly since North Park beat Chicago on the home pitch of the Maroons.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 10:27:58 PM
As I ponder Mr. Sager's 19,000+ posts and Hall of Fame status, I realize that I almost certainly will not earn a gold jacket.

That said, the tournament is a blast, and really a blast if your team is in the field.  Best time of the year.....until....it's not.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 06, 2017, 10:57:23 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 10:27:58 PM
As I ponder Mr. Sager's 19,000+ posts and Hall of Fame status, I realize that I almost certainly will not earn a gold jacket.

That's OK. You make a much better salad dressing than I ever could. ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 11:06:08 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 06, 2017, 10:57:23 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2017, 10:27:58 PM
As I ponder Mr. Sager's 19,000+ posts and Hall of Fame status, I realize that I almost certainly will not earn a gold jacket.

That's OK. You make a much better salad dressing than I ever could. ;)

Haha, well-played.  +k...as though you need +k's.

And the secret to the salad dressing is in the subcontracting.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on November 06, 2017, 11:48:22 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 06, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 06, 2017, 08:53:45 PM
I am sorry but I really think Chicago got screwed. They should be sitting right where North Park is and North Park should be where Chicago is. The only reason they are not is because North Park beat them 1-0 about 3 weeks ago. I happened to catch the 2nd Half of that game and Chicago was the better side. I mean I just do not understand how North Park jumped Chicago in the Final ranking without either team losing. Chicago has a significant SOS advantage and RvR advantage. It doesn't make much sense except for 1 game that happened 3 weeks ago that jumped North Park over Chicago this week.

Not true.

First of all, by your own admission you only watched the second half. NPU dominated play in the first half, outshooting the Maroons 5-1 and getting the only shot on frame of the half.

Second, the committee had already jumped North Park ahead of Chicago after the Vikings beat the Maroons (Oct. 25 ranking) and then jumped Chicago right back ahead of North Park the following week (Nov. 1 ranking), so this was old news.

Third, the committee made a mistake in forming the previous week's ranking in which it had jumped Chicago ahead of North Park, assigning an RvR win over Aurora that shouldn't have been credited, because Aurora hadn't been ranked the week before -- and (properly) not doing the same for NPU, which had also beaten Aurora. Hey, it happens sometimes.

Fourth, and most importantly, you're only looking at two criteria, SOS (which Chicago clearly dominated) and RvR (in which Chicago does not have a significant advantage; in fact, if you're going by RvR winning percentage, Chicago doesn't have any advantage at all, since the Maroons were 7-2-0 RvR, and the Vikings were 4-0-0 RvR). There are three other primary criteria involved in the process. One is head-to-head, which is in NPU's column. Another is win-loss % against D3 opponents, and NPU wins that criterion, .917 to .889. Finally, there's record vs. D3 common opponents, which favors Chicago, 8-0 to 8-1.

In other words, two criteria clearly favor North Park, and two clearly favor Chicago. I suspect that the committee might have the leeway to interpret the RvR criterion either cumulatively or by winning percentage, as that's the case for the D3 sport that I follow most closely, men's basketball, but I don't know for sure that that's the case. If it's cumulative, Chicago takes it by dint of having played nine regionally-ranked opponents to North Park's four. But if it's winning percentage, then NPU takes the criterion, 1.000 to .777. If the committee doesn't have that leeway, then it's automatically going to go by RvR winning percentage. Regardless, that's how the committee went, anyway, with NPU owning the edge in three of the five criteria. Also, if the committee added any extra weight to one or other of the criteria, it was clearly head-to-head -- particularly since North Park beat Chicago on the home pitch of the Maroons.

North Park should thank their lucky stars for the cake walk they got, anything less than Elite 8 will be a big disappointment. Kenyon will probably be there to meet them, which should prove a tasty match-up. We'll see if NPU's skills win out over any potential nerves. On paper, this is probably NPU's most talented team and this is a draw they have to take advantage of.
I thought the big RR results and SOS advantage would favor Chicago ultimately in the bracket over NPU, but those are the breaks.
The Chicago-JCU-Calvin-OWU sectional draw is rough, gonna be some wars on the pitch. I still think Calvin is fave to win national title this year, but if you're gonna trip them up, gotta do it early in the tournament. They seem to gain steam and confidence with each passing round.
As the forwards go, so goes Chicago. You give Lopez any space or opportunity for headers, he's gonna score. Koh's straight-line speed bends entire defenses, and on turf he's even scarier.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
When do the final NCAA Regional Rankings get released to the public? There were no real snubs but one thing that caught my eye was Texas Tyler getting in which had to be for geographic reasons. Why not give Trinity the 1st round bye and omit Texas Tyler and put a different, more deserving team in one of the other quads? Don't think anyone would have complained about that.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 10:18:28 AM
The final regular season poll until the post-season poll on December 5th.

November 7, 2017
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 10
Through games of Sunday, November 5, 2017

#   School (1st Pl. Votes)   Record   Pts.   Prev.
1   Calvin (13)   19-0-1   979   2
2   Trinity (Texas) (4)   20-1-0   909   3
3   Tufts (1)   15-1-2   891   4
4   Lycoming   18-2-0   888   5
5   Messiah   18-2-0   859   1
6   St. Thomas   19-1-0   760   7
7   Chicago   16-2-0   749   8
8   Rutgers-Newark   20-2-0   669   12
9   Oneonta State   15-1-2   667   11
10   Drew (1)   19-0-1   598   13
11   Johns Hopkins   14-1-3   579   9
12   North Park   17-1-1   549   14
13   Cortland State   15-3-0   539   6
14   Lynchburg   17-1-2   509   16
15   Rowan   17-3-1   503   10
16   John Carroll   15-2-2   360   15
17   St. Joseph's (Me.)   18-0-1   324   19
18   Amherst   11-3-2   313   18
19   Kenyon   15-2-3   282   17
20   Brandeis   13-4-0   273   21
21   Otterbein   17-2-0   240   23
22   Oglethorpe   16-2-1   231   24
23   Springfield   14-1-2   167   22
24   Transylvania   17-1-0   141   25
25   Chris. Newport   14-3-1   55   20
Dropped out: none

Receiving Votes: Buffalo State 29, Mary Washington 29, Loras 21, Washington and Lee 13, Rochester 11, Mary Hardin-Baylor 11, Randolph-Macon 8, Johnson and Wales 6, Cal Lutheran 4, Franklin and Marshall 2, Willamette 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:27:53 AM
Two issues with the rankings.

I am far from a Tufts fan, despite the impressions of some, but I can work through my feelings to give them their due, and I can't imagine any argument where they aren't the #1 team in the country in a poll.

And how can Calvin be #1 and not even be able to host a friggin pod?  I know the technical answer but that answer just doesn't make any sense. 

In any case, especially with Messiah losing at home to Lycoming, IMO Tufts and Calvin are #1 and #2 in the country. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
When do the final NCAA Regional Rankings get released to the public? There were no real snubs but one thing that caught my eye was Texas Tyler getting in which had to be for geographic reasons. Why not give Trinity the 1st round bye and omit Texas Tyler and put a different, more deserving team in one of the other quads? Don't think anyone would have complained about that.

The NCAA traditionally does not release the set of regional rankings used for playoff selection. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:27:53 AMI am far from a Tufts fan, despite the impressions of some, but I can work through my feelings to give them their due, and I can't imagine any argument where they aren't the #1 team in the country in a poll.

So all opinions on how good Calvin is and how good Tufts is are wrong if they don't find Tufts to be the best and Calvin to be second best?


Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:27:53 AMAnd how can Calvin be #1 and not even be able to host a friggin pod?  I know the technical answer but that answer just doesn't make any sense. 

Well, wouldn't the answer be (not sure if it's technical or not) that D3soccer.com is not the NCAA men's soccer committee.  Two different entities, with different criteria, different opinions and assessments.    If D3soccer.com was the organizer of the tournament, Calvin would be hosting a 1st/2nd Round pod. 

I think that answer makes sense.  What doesn't make sense is questioning the lack of compatibility and correspondence between (a) the D3soccer.com rankings and (b) the NCAA men's soccer committee's tournament bracketing.  There is no reason, intention, or expectation for two things coming from two separate and independent entities to be completely compatible and congruent. Should the NCAA ignore their own rankings and consult the D3soccer.com rankings to set brackets, seeding, and hosting for their tournament?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 11:26:08 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
When do the final NCAA Regional Rankings get released to the public? There were no real snubs but one thing that caught my eye was Texas Tyler getting in which had to be for geographic reasons. Why not give Trinity the 1st round bye and omit Texas Tyler and put a different, more deserving team in one of the other quads? Don't think anyone would have complained about that.

The NCAA traditionally does not release the set of regional rankings used for playoff selection.

They released this information last year and are suppose to continue to do so to provide clarity on selections. The data sheets are released on the NCAA website but the Final Regional Rankings have not been updated from the 3rd rankings yet.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 06, 2017, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 06, 2017, 08:53:45 PM
I am sorry but I really think Chicago got screwed. They should be sitting right where North Park is and North Park should be where Chicago is. The only reason they are not is because North Park beat them 1-0 about 3 weeks ago. I happened to catch the 2nd Half of that game and Chicago was the better side. I mean I just do not understand how North Park jumped Chicago in the Final ranking without either team losing. Chicago has a significant SOS advantage and RvR advantage. It doesn't make much sense except for 1 game that happened 3 weeks ago that jumped North Park over Chicago this week.

Not true.

First of all, by your own admission you only watched the second half. NPU dominated play in the first half, outshooting the Maroons 5-1 and getting the only shot on frame of the half.

Second, the committee had already jumped North Park ahead of Chicago after the Vikings beat the Maroons (Oct. 25 ranking) and then jumped Chicago right back ahead of North Park the following week (Nov. 1 ranking), so this was old news.

Third, the committee made a mistake in forming the previous week's ranking in which it had jumped Chicago ahead of North Park, assigning an RvR win over Aurora that shouldn't have been credited, because Aurora hadn't been ranked the week before -- and (properly) not doing the same for NPU, which had also beaten Aurora. Hey, it happens sometimes.

Fourth, and most importantly, you're only looking at two criteria, SOS (which Chicago clearly dominated) and RvR (in which Chicago does not have a significant advantage; in fact, if you're going by RvR winning percentage, Chicago doesn't have any advantage at all, since the Maroons were 7-2-0 RvR, and the Vikings were 4-0-0 RvR). There are three other primary criteria involved in the process. One is head-to-head, which is in NPU's column. Another is win-loss % against D3 opponents, and NPU wins that criterion, .917 to .889. Finally, there's record vs. D3 common opponents, which favors Chicago, 8-0 to 8-1.

In other words, two criteria clearly favor North Park, and two clearly favor Chicago. I suspect that the committee might have the leeway to interpret the RvR criterion either cumulatively or by winning percentage, as that's the case for the D3 sport that I follow most closely, men's basketball, but I don't know for sure that that's the case. If it's cumulative, Chicago takes it by dint of having played nine regionally-ranked opponents to North Park's four. But if it's winning percentage, then NPU takes the criterion, 1.000 to .777. If the committee doesn't have that leeway, then it's automatically going to go by RvR winning percentage. Regardless, that's how the committee went, anyway, with NPU owning the edge in three of the five criteria. Also, if the committee added any extra weight to one or other of the criteria, it was clearly head-to-head -- particularly since North Park beat Chicago on the home pitch of the Maroons.



This is all fine and good and I am not slamming North park I am just curious HOW North Park jumped Chicago in the Final Rankings if neither team lost and quite frankly Chicago and tougher games...Anyone?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 11:31:40 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2017, 11:05:25 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
When do the final NCAA Regional Rankings get released to the public? There were no real snubs but one thing that caught my eye was Texas Tyler getting in which had to be for geographic reasons. Why not give Trinity the 1st round bye and omit Texas Tyler and put a different, more deserving team in one of the other quads? Don't think anyone would have complained about that.

The NCAA traditionally does not release the set of regional rankings used for playoff selection. 

Starting last year, like had been done prior to 2011, the committee was to release their fourth regional rankings--done Sunday after the completion of the conference tournaments, but not release until after announcing the tournament field.

From page 13 of the 2017 Division III Soccer Pre-Championship Manual (http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2017/2017-NCAA-Division-III-Soccer_Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf):
QuoteMonday, Nov. 6
Women's – 64-team field announced, 1 p.m. Eastern time
Men's – 62-team field announced, 1:30 p.m. Eastern time.
Final regional ranking released.

From page 18 of the 2017 Division III Soccer Pre-Championship Manual (http://www.d3soccer.com/ncaa-publications/2017/2017-NCAA-Division-III-Soccer_Pre-Championships-Manual.pdf):
QuoteMen's Soccer Regional Ranking
The men's soccer committee will release regional rankings on the following dates:
● Wednesday, Oct. 18
● Wednesday, Oct. 25
● Wednesday, Nov. 1
● Monday, Nov. 6

Last year they did release their fourth rankings (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2016/men/regional-rankings-F) which D3soccer.com has posted here (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2016/men/regional-rankings-F).  It's not clear why they have not yet released their fourth rankings this year, but the data sheets used to do the fourth rankings have been released.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Upstatesoc on November 07, 2017, 11:35:31 AM
Surprised SUNYAC got to host three first round site. Too bad Messiah has to play on such a lousy football turf surface that Buff State has. Needs to be REPLACED!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:27:53 AMI am far from a Tufts fan, despite the impressions of some, but I can work through my feelings to give them their due, and I can't imagine any argument where they aren't the #1 team in the country in a poll.

So all opinions on how good Calvin is and how good Tufts is are wrong if they don't find Tufts to be the best and Calvin to be second best?


Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:27:53 AMAnd how can Calvin be #1 and not even be able to host a friggin pod?  I know the technical answer but that answer just doesn't make any sense. 

Well, wouldn't the answer be (not sure if it's technical or not) that D3soccer.com is not the NCAA men's soccer committee.  Two different entities, with different criteria, different opinions and assessments.    If D3soccer.com was the organizer of the tournament, Calvin would be hosting a 1st/2nd Round pod. 

I think that answer makes sense.  What doesn't make sense is questioning the lack of compatibility and correspondence between (a) the D3soccer.com rankings and (b) the NCAA men's soccer committee's tournament bracketing.  There is no reason, intention, or expectation for two things coming from two separate and independent entities to be completely compatible and congruent. Should the NCAA ignore their own rankings and consult the D3soccer.com rankings to set brackets, seeding, and hosting for their tournament?

A little chippiness....I get a free kick from about 35 yards out.

The first thing about Tufts was rhetorical.  Of course anyone can have their opinions.  I haven't seen any opinions or analysis on why Tufts wouldn't be or shouldn't be #1 and/or why other teams should be.  I'd love to hear some cogent arguments.  For me, which I said described previously, Tufts, in addition to be defending national champs which early in the season seems to carry some weight for some, has given up an own goal in a conference (despite what some argued as weak just a week or two ago) that just got 5 bids, whose one loss all season is to an own goal, etc, etc.

As to the second point, that also is rhetorical to some degree.  There is a flaw somewhere when not just one national poll, but two have Calvin #1 and in the top 3 or so all season and then the NCAA has them a weak 4th in just their own weak region.  Regardless of who "owns" the polls there is disconnect and cognitive dissonance between the polls -- and also for that matter general consensus among most observers here -- and the treatment/formula by the NCAA when it comes to a Calvin (which gets treated the same as a PS-Behrend or St Joes of Maine).  Maybe two consecutive Final Fours should weigh in at some point.  The point is the disconnect.  I understand the procedural and criterion issues.

ADDENDUM:  And, I would venture to say, that the very cmte members for the NCAA regional rankings and the national cmte responsible for seedings and bracketing KNOW that they are underseeding Calvin simultaneous with doing it.  [The point was not that by virtue of any poll they should be influenced, but I was more using the polls to make the broader point about how Calvin is perceived by basically everyone....the polls are in that sense merely incidental.]  Hardly ANYONE, from any organization, with any reasonable objectives, would conclude that Calvin gets properly seeded (over the past 3 years let's say).  They (the NCAA cmtes) are a slave to their criteria which in the case of Calvin and occasionally other teams they know are faulty.  As to whether they should follow their criteria to the letter anyway, against their own joint instincts apart from those criteria, is a whole different question, and one where reasonable folks might differ.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 12:51:06 PM
The Regional Rankings should be up on the NCAA website shortly.  D3soccer.com inquired and was told that the men's and women's committee did submit the fourth rankings for posting on the NCAA website yesterday.  They are looking into it to make sure they get posted.  Once they are available, they will also get posted on D3soccer.com.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2017, 12:58:17 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 12:51:06 PM
The Regional Rankings should be up on the NCAA website shortly.  D3soccer.com inquired and was told that the men's and women's committee did submit the fourth rankings for posting on the NCAA website yesterday.  They are looking into it to make sure they get posted.  Once they are available, they will also get posted on D3soccer.com.

Maybe they forgot the rules were changed a couple of years ago like I did  ;)  thanks to all for the clarification!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 11:31:40 AM

Last year they did release their fourth rankings (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2016/men/regional-rankings-F) which D3soccer.com has posted here (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2016/men/regional-rankings-F). 

Fascinating to go back and see Tufts entered the tournament last year at 9-5-2.  Very similar to where Conn College is at this year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 01:23:30 PM
So the Final Poll shows Conn College jumping Bowdoin without playing and North Park jumping Chicago with neither team losing. I am utterly baffled
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 01:24:40 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Tufts
15-1-2
0.613
4-1-2
15-1-2
1
2.
Amherst
11-3-2
0.621
4-1-1
11-3-2
2
3.
Brandeis
13-4-0
0.622
4-4-0
13-4-0
3
4.
Springfield
14-1-2
0.566
5-0-0
14-1-2
4
5.
Middlebury
12-6-0
0.627
4-4-0
12-6-0
6
6.
Connecticut College
9-3-4
0.605
2-2-3
9-3-4
7
7.
Bowdoin
10-4-3
0.593
2-3-3
10-4-3
5
8.
Johnson and Wales
15-2-2
0.524
1-1-0
15-2-2
--
9.
Williams
8-3-5
0.600
0-3-3
8-3-5
8
10.
Endicott
13-4-3
0.533
1-2-1
13-4-3
10
11.
St. Joseph's (Maine)
18-0-1
0.499
2-0-0
18-0-1
--
12.
Gordon
13-6-1
0.544
0-3-1
13-6-1
12

EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Oneonta State
15-1-2
0.598
4-1-2
15-1-2
2
2.
Cortland State
15-3-0
0.586
5-2-0
15-3-0
1
3.
Buffalo State
14-2-3
0.557
3-0-2
14-2-3
4
4.
Rochester
11-3-3
0.588
2-3-2
11-3-3
3
5.
Hobart
10-4-4
0.577
2-2-1
10-4-4
6
6.
Plattsburgh State
13-7-1
0.610
2-6-0
13-7-1
5
7.
Stevens
11-6-2
0.584
2-4-0
11-6-2
--
8.
Vassar
10-5-3
0.572
0-3-1
10-5-3
7

MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Messiah
18-2-0
0.608
7-2-0
18-2-0
1
2.
Lycoming
18-2-0
0.572
5-1-0
18-2-0
2
3.
Johns Hopkins
14-1-3
0.553
4-1-2
14-1-3
3
4.
Franklin and Marshall
11-5-2
0.607
4-5-2
11-5-2
8
5.
Dickinson
11-6-3
0.604
4-6-1
11-6-3
5
6.
Drew
19-0-1
0.522
3-0-0
19-0-1
6
7.
Gettysburg
13-5-0
0.547
2-4-0
13-5-0
4
8.
Haverford
10-5-3
0.595
4-5-0
10-5-3
7
9.
Lebanon Valley
11-5-1
0.547
1-3-0
11-5-1
9
10.
Elizabethtown
10-7-2
0.583
1-4-0
10-7-2
10

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Lynchburg
16-1-2
0.602
3-1-1
17-1-2
1
2.
Rowan
17-3-1
0.616
3-3-0
17-3-1
2
3.
Oglethorpe
16-1-1
0.576
1-1-0
16-2-1
3
4.
Rutgers-Newark
20-2-0
0.579
2-2-0
20-2-0
5
5.
Washington and Lee
14-4-1
0.580
3-2-1
14-4-1
4
6.
Emory
12-5-1
0.637
2-3-1
12-5-1
6
7.
Mary Washington
15-4-1
0.566
2-3-0
15-4-1
8
8.
Christopher Newport
13-3-1
0.547
1-3-0
14-3-1
7
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 01:29:54 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Otterbein
17-2-0
0.570
7-1-0
17-2-0
2
2.
John Carroll
15-2-2
0.597
4-2-2
15-2-2
1
3.
Kenyon
15-2-3
0.580
2-2-2
15-2-3
3
4.
Thomas More
14-4-2
0.580
1-1-1
14-4-2
5
5.
Capital
12-7-2
0.609
4-5-2
12-7-2
6
6.
Carnegie Mellon
10-4-3
0.623
1-3-3
10-4-3
4
7.
Marietta
11-6-3
0.556
2-3-3
11-6-3
--
8.
Ohio Northern
12-6-2
0.575
2-4-1
12-6-2
7

CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
North Park
16-1-1
0.573
4-0-0
17-1-1
2
2.
Chicago
16-2-0
0.633
7-2-0
16-2-0
1
3.
Dominican
14-4-0
0.542
2-2-0
14-4-0
3
4.
Calvin
19-0-1
0.527
--
19-0-1
4
5.
Benedictine
14-6-0
0.542
1-4-0
14-6-0
5
6.
Aurora
12-7-0
0.536
2-4-0
12-8-0
6

NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
St. Thomas
19-1-0
0.573
4-1-0
19-1-0
1
2.
Loras
13-5-1
0.589
3-2-1
13-5-1
2
3.
Luther
11-4-5
0.581
1-2-3
11-4-5
3
4.
St. Norbert
14-4-2
0.534
2-2-0
14-4-2
4
5.
UW-Platteville
11-3-2
0.562
1-2-1
11-3-2
5
6.
Macalester
12-6-2
0.576
0-3-1
12-6-2
7
7.
Simpson
15-3-2
0.531
0-3-0
15-3-2
6

WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - November 06, 2017

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Trinity (Texas)
20-1-0
0.542
6-1-0
20-1-0
1
2.
Mary Hardin-Baylor
15-2-1
0.544
2-1-1
15-2-1
3
3.
Cal Lutheran
13-4-2
0.532
2-1-1
13-4-2
--
4.
Texas-Tyler
11-3-2
0.565
1-2-0
11-3-3
4
5.
Colorado College
11-4-4
0.536
2-2-2
11-4-5
2
6.
Redlands
14-4-2
0.557
1-4-1
14-4-2
5
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 01:35:49 PM
Wow, so OWU didn't get ranked.   Capital jumped CMU without that extra win.  Calvin is denied a win and therefore has none. Kenyon doesn't get another win but keeps the Heidelberg loss even though Heidelberg dropped out.  A single variable can have a large ripple effect.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 01:38:37 PM
I would be willing to guess that this would be the only year a 7 loss team can get a Pool C. I guess that is how weak the bubble was BUT 7 losses for me is 1 to many.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on November 07, 2017, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 01:35:49 PM
Wow, so OWU didn't get ranked.   Capital jumped CMU without that extra win.  Calvin is denied a win and therefore has none. Kenyon doesn't get another win but keeps the Heidelberg loss even though Heidelberg dropped out.  A single variable can have a large ripple effect.

Yes Paul, and if OWU gets ranked, Otterbein probably doesn't hop JCU and their spots are probably flipped. Big implications if JCU runs into Calvin in the 2nd round.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on November 07, 2017, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 01:35:49 PM
Wow, so OWU didn't get ranked.   Capital jumped CMU without that extra win.  Calvin is denied a win and therefore has none. Kenyon doesn't get another win but keeps the Heidelberg loss even though Heidelberg dropped out.  A single variable can have a large ripple effect.

Yes Paul, and if OWU gets ranked, Otterbein probably doesn't hop JCU and their spots are probably flipped. Big implications if JCU runs into Calvin in the 2nd round.

Well, I think Otterbein might have jumped them anyway with a 7-1 RvR vs even a 5-2-2 for JCU.  Hard not to feel like that is a little inflated for Otterbein but they won all of their games, so that's the deal when you get to count the teams that drop out after being ranked in Week 3 and then add wins for teams that enter in Week 4.  JCU I think was unfortunate more for the double hit of OWU and Calvin, a huge rivalry game with a perennial power and then Calvin, another perennial power and #1 in two polls.  Will you be shocked, though, if JCU beats OWU and Otterbein loses to Medaille?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Texas Tyler getting in was an absolute crime. Luther, Gettysburg, CMU, and Haverford all have much better resumes than them. I am sure those teams are bitter towards the committee.

Washington & Lee is hosting as the #5 team from their region? But Newark is ahead of them and has to travel to Boston to play Bowdoin and potentially Brandeis??? Someone explain that one to me. What a blunder. It gets better though. Ogelthorpe is ahead of both of them regionally and gets matched up with W&L at W&L!!! How is that even possible?  ::) Also how Newark isn't ahead of Ogelthorpe in the region is another head scratcher. The South Atlantic is a mess.



Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Texas Tyler getting in was an absolute crime. Luther, Gettysburg, CMU, and Haverford all have much better resumes than them. I am sure those teams are bitter towards the committee.

Washington & Lee is hosting as the #5 team from their region? But Newark is ahead of them and has to travel to Boston to play Bowdoin and potentially Brandeis??? Someone explain that one to me. What a blunder. It gets better though. Ogelthorpe is ahead of both of them regionally and gets matched up with W&L at W&l!!! How is that even possible?  ::) Also how Newark isn't ahead of Ogelthorpe in the region is another head scratcher. The South Atlantic is a mess.

Two words (or four)...Geographic convenience, travel costs.

Last year they sent much higher ranked (and I mean by the NCAA) Trinity to Tufts.  And yes, that's an advantage.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:19:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Texas Tyler getting in was an absolute crime. Luther, Gettysburg, CMU, and Haverford all have much better resumes than them. I am sure those teams are bitter towards the committee.

Washington & Lee is hosting as the #5 team from their region? But Newark is ahead of them and has to travel to Boston to play Bowdoin and potentially Brandeis??? Someone explain that one to me. What a blunder. It gets better though. Ogelthorpe is ahead of both of them regionally and gets matched up with W&L at W&l!!! How is that even possible?  ::) Also how Newark isn't ahead of Ogelthorpe in the region is another head scratcher. The South Atlantic is a mess.

Two words (or four)...Geographic convenience, travel costs.

Last year they sent much higher ranked (and I mean by the NCAA) Trinity to Tufts.  And yes, that's an advantage.

No doubt. I am more flabbergasted by W&L hosting the easiest grouping that includes a team which is 2 slots ahead of them in their own region yet that team isn't hosting  AND Newark being sent to NE.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 07, 2017, 02:24:17 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Texas Tyler getting in was an absolute crime. Luther, Gettysburg, CMU, and Haverford all have much better resumes than them. I am sure those teams are bitter towards the committee.

Washington & Lee is hosting as the #5 team from their region? But Newark is ahead of them and has to travel to Boston to play Bowdoin and potentially Brandeis??? Someone explain that one to me. What a blunder. It gets better though. Ogelthorpe is ahead of both of them regionally and gets matched up with W&L at W&L!!! How is that even possible?  ::) Also how Newark isn't ahead of Ogelthorpe in the region is another head scratcher. The South Atlantic is a mess.

I think there are a lot more considerations going on than we know about, but I am inclined to agree with you. Including this year's, RUN will have been to Eastern Massachusetts three of its four years -- two years at Brandeis (2013 and 2017) and one at Babson (2014) -- in the NCAA tournament, albeit the trip to Babo was because Cortland was scheduled to host but couldn't. Another NJ school, Stevens, came to Brandeis in 2015, and RPI (who never should have gotten a bid, but that's another story) also came to Gordon Field, bypassing Amherst, which is 1 1/2 hours closer to Rensselaer. Of course, Amherst requires getting off I-90 (or I-91, I guess) and driving a bit on back roads, but it's still much closer to that part of NY than is Waltham, so certainly a bit of a head-scratcher. Meanwhile, Tufts has had to go to NJ for the first two rounds the last two years. I understand seeding certainly has something to do with it, and in no way to I profess to be an expert on site selection, but -- given that these schools have all offered to host -- it is a bit perplexing to me, as well, that a number of teams have had to travel past other host sites to get to where they're going if geography and costs are key.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 07, 2017, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Texas Tyler getting in was an absolute crime. Luther, Gettysburg, CMU, and Haverford all have much better resumes than them. I am sure those teams are bitter towards the committee.

Washington & Lee is hosting as the #5 team from their region? But Newark is ahead of them and has to travel to Boston to play Bowdoin and potentially Brandeis??? Someone explain that one to me. What a blunder. It gets better though. Ogelthorpe is ahead of both of them regionally and gets matched up with W&L at W&L!!! How is that even possible?  ::) Also how Newark isn't ahead of Ogelthorpe in the region is another head scratcher. The South Atlantic is a mess.

I'm wondering if Ogelthorpe didn't apply to host. Otherwise there were plenty of options to build them a pod. NC Wes, W&L, Lynchburg, Emory, Thomas More... all within driving distance.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:27:12 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:19:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
Texas Tyler getting in was an absolute crime. Luther, Gettysburg, CMU, and Haverford all have much better resumes than them. I am sure those teams are bitter towards the committee.

Washington & Lee is hosting as the #5 team from their region? But Newark is ahead of them and has to travel to Boston to play Bowdoin and potentially Brandeis??? Someone explain that one to me. What a blunder. It gets better though. Ogelthorpe is ahead of both of them regionally and gets matched up with W&L at W&l!!! How is that even possible?  ::) Also how Newark isn't ahead of Ogelthorpe in the region is another head scratcher. The South Atlantic is a mess.

Two words (or four)...Geographic convenience, travel costs.

Last year they sent much higher ranked (and I mean by the NCAA) Trinity to Tufts.  And yes, that's an advantage.

No doubt. I am more flabbergasted by W&L hosting the easiest grouping that includes a team which is 2 slots ahead of them in their own region yet that team isn't hosting  AND Newark being sent to NE.

I'm agreeing with you, but same region doesn't necessarily mean close.  Atlanta and Lexington, VA are quite far apart and without looking I'm guessing Lexington, VA is closer to the other two schools in the pod (and/or Oglethorpe has poor hosting facilities...like no hotels in the Greater Atlanta area).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:28:27 PM
Great point Blooter. Even aside from the costs, just seeding alone makes no sense. How does the #5 team from the SA host with the #3 team from SA travelling there and the #4 team go to NE?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:29:36 PM
Ogelthorpe not applying to host would make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 07, 2017, 02:32:59 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:29:36 PM
Ogelthorpe not applying to host would make a lot of sense.

To my mind it's the only thing that makes sense. Then W&L gets that pod because sending Ogelthorpe to W&L is nicer to the Petrals than sending them to Lynchburg. Once you establish that, W&L is the natural host over NC Wes, a bit of a geographic orphan and not ranked, and Mary Washington, also behind W&L but more importantly more than 500 miles from Ogelthorpe.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:37:13 PM
Okay I will be the first to do it! Here is the perfect bracket  ;)

Round of 32
North Park (given)
Westminister
Ogelthorpe
W&L
St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital
OWU
Calvin
Lynchburg
Dickinson
Trinity
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Tufts (given)
St. Joes
Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco
Drew
Brandeis
Bowdoin
Messiah
Buff St
Cortland St
Stevens
Oneonta St
CT College
Amherst
Springfield

Sweet 16
NP
W&L
St. Thomas
Kenyon
Chicago
Calvin
Lynchburg
Trinity
Tufts
Hopkins
Lycoming
Brandeis
Messiah
Cortland
Oneonta
Amherst

Elite 8
NP
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lynchburg
Tufts
Lycoming
Messiah
Amherst

Final 4
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lycoming
Amherst

Final
St. Thomas
Lycoming

Champion
Lycoming 2-2 (wins in PK's 5-4)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:47:18 PM
Given their low regional ranking I wasn't sure how CNU was going to fare in the poll when I voted for them.  Surprised to see they have a significant lead for most snubbed.  If I saw their schedule before the season and you told me they'd go 14-3-1, I'd say they had a 90-95% chance of getting a bid.  A schedule that out of conference included Rowan, W&L, Camden, NC Wes (canceled), Greensboro and Virginia Wesleyan. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 04:01:20 PM
Yes, when it comes to bracketing, there is info we don't have.  Who did or did not bid to host being among that info we are not privy to.  And sometimes we can forget about rotating hosting priority when both men's and women's teams are in NCAA's.  Sometimes the host is picked because they are the central team in the pod that doesn't require anyone to fly.

As to the limited budget and wanting to limit travel and flights, well, first, any complaints about not opening the purse strings more goes need to go to a different higher level of the NCAA than complaints specific to seeding and bracketing which are the responsibility of the D-III men's and women's soccer committees.  In other words, those imposing the financial constraints are not the same people who have to operate within those constraints in administrating the tournament.

Given the financial constraints imposed upon the D-III men's and women's soccer committees, I have much fewer complaints than others about the bracketing each year. Back in the 80's, 90's and into the 00's, the first two (or three) rounds were originally strictly regional and later roughly regional with the same teams meeting time and time again over the years. Around the same time that the tournament field really expanded in the mid-00's there was also a notable shift in bracketing with more and more inter-regional match-ups in the early rounds.  The expanded field made that possible, but given the travel cost concerns, it was not inevitable or necessary to mix things up like they started doing.  So I credit the committees for that. Yes, teams would drive past other host sites to get to where they were playing.  It was a great change to break up the stale repeated match-ups of both regular season games and previous NCAA tournaments.  It was a very welcomed development that made the tournament more interesting with match-ups that otherwise wouldn't happen.  It almost seems like there is some complaining now about sending teams to mixed-region pods.  Do you really want the alternative. 

Now I get wanting the top seeds to be rewarded with hosting or whatever gives them an advantage that they apparently have earned (such as a shorter drive if not hosting).  But for all the complaining about not enough money being made available for the tournament, why would we complain when they do spend some money to mix things up and create inter-regional match-ups in round 1 and 2?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 07, 2017, 04:29:47 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 04:01:20 PM
Yes, when it comes to bracketing, there is info we don't have.  Who did or did not bid to host being among that info we are not privy to.  And sometimes we can forget about rotating hosting priority when both men's and women's teams are in NCAA's.  Sometimes the host is picked because they are the central team in the pod that doesn't require anyone to fly.

As to the limited budget and wanting to limit travel and flights, well, first, any complaints about not opening the purse strings more goes need to go to a different higher level of the NCAA than complaints specific to seeding and bracketing which are the responsibility of the D-III men's and women's soccer committees.  In other words, those imposing the financial constraints are not the same people who have to operate within those constraints in administrating the tournament.

Given the financial constraints imposed upon the D-III men's and women's soccer committees, I have much fewer complaints than others about the bracketing each year. Back in the 80's, 90's and into the 00's, the first two (or three) rounds were originally strictly regional and later roughly regional with the same teams meeting time and time again over the years. Around the same time that the tournament field really expanded in the mid-00's there was also a notable shift in bracketing with more and more inter-regional match-ups in the early rounds.  The expanded field made that possible, but given the travel cost concerns, it was not inevitable or necessary to mix things up like they started doing.  So I credit the committees for that. Yes, teams would drive past other host sites to get to where they were playing.  It was a great change to break up the stale repeated match-ups of both regular season games and previous NCAA tournaments.  It was a very welcomed development that made the tournament more interesting with match-ups that otherwise wouldn't happen.  It almost seems like there is some complaining now about sending teams to mixed-region pods.  Do you really want the alternative. 

Now I get wanting the top seeds to be rewarded with hosting or whatever gives them an advantage that they apparently have earned (such as a shorter drive if not hosting).  But for all the complaining about not enough money being made available for the tournament, why would we complain when they do spend some money to mix things up and create inter-regional match-ups in round 1 and 2?

I do agree that inter-regional matchups are exciting and a nice change of pace. I enjoy seeing good teams that I haven't gotten to see before, and particularly enjoyed seeing Rutgers-Newark back in 2013. Yet while the RPI driving past Amherst to get to Brandeis was just one example, Amherst vs. RPI would in and of itself be an inter-regional matchup, no?

My view is simply that, if costs and geography are important -- while recognizing that potential matchups are contingent on the geography of those teams admitted (and acknowledging that controversial selections that appear to be tied to geography happen) -- it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to be having out-of-region teams travel further when there are host sites (whether in or out of a given region) in closer proximity. Even so, I can understand that applying that rule to the letter of the law would result in some pairings that probably wouldn't make for a structured bracket. And, it's funny to think how you can have two schools in close proximity be "out of (one another's) region," such as (random example) WConn. and SUNY Purchase. Different regions, but a 45-minute drive, so closer than the distance between many schools in a given state (unless you live in Rhode Island ;)).

Regardless, it fully makes sense that the cost constraints are contingent on the decisions of a higher level of the NCAA, and I don't think there can be any complaints directed at those in charge of seeding and devising the bracket. I can't say I'd do a better job.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 07, 2017, 04:34:56 PM
I know when it comes to the football tournament the implication we've been given by interviews with past committee members is that they should try and limit the first and second round flights as strictly as possible. That is done 2 or maybe 3 first round flights, and pods generally built to limit flights as much as competitively possible, through the first 3 rounds. So we usually end up with the geographic orphan conferences, the ASC, SCIAC, and NWC getting somewhat screwed in the early rounds as they play against each other, regardless of their true committee rankings, to limit flights in the first two rounds.

However, for the rest of the teams, so long as they are inside the 500 mile cut off for flying, teams can be sent just about anywhere to try and provide as fair a competition as the committee can design. So for each of the 4 8 team brackets, outside the orphan pod, the goal is to get a 1 seed as close to an 8 seed match up as the 500 miles can allow and so on for 2-7, 3-6, 4-5.

The committee does not seem constrained by mileage under 500 in setting up these possibilities, so teams generally teams will drive past possibilities to set up balance. A few years ago W&L went 492 miles or so, by the NCAA's TES system, to play Hobart. I don't know how many closer games they could have played, but that set up the "fairest" match up, according to the National Committee's seeding and views on the two teams.

I'd assume soccer works similarly. The National Committee is told to avoid as many flights as possible early in quite strong terms, but told that within the flight limit they should set up as fair a tournament as they think can be done with reasonable possibilities of avoiding flights in the later rounds.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:08:22 PM
I frankly haven't seen an inordinate amount of complaining. The questions raised and examples referenced seem perfectly understandable as questions. And the explanations are always helpful and appreciated. Also, mentioning that costs are a factor isn't necessarily a criticism, but more a statement of realities. And there are realities for a Trinity or Redlands or Whitworth that are, well, realities. And sometime brackets fall in unexpected ways. It wasn't Tufts' fault that hosting fell in their lap, but one can still make a comment that the good fortune wasn't necessarily "deserved," which, again, is different than blaming anyone. I didn't expect the NCAA to fly 3 teams to Trinity, but they did have to fly 2 teams to Boston. And then there are unforeseen events like Kenyon's field being overtaken by some grass ailment.  All of the elements of the tournament are fun to toss around. At NCAA March Madness time fans love to complain and obsess over all manner of things. These few weeks go by fast. I'll enjoy them even when it seems like I'm not.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 05:10:48 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on November 07, 2017, 01:52:15 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 01:35:49 PM
Wow, so OWU didn't get ranked.   Capital jumped CMU without that extra win.  Calvin is denied a win and therefore has none. Kenyon doesn't get another win but keeps the Heidelberg loss even though Heidelberg dropped out.  A single variable can have a large ripple effect.

Yes Paul, and if OWU gets ranked, Otterbein probably doesn't hop JCU and their spots are probably flipped. Big implications if JCU runs into Calvin in the 2nd round.

Well, I think Otterbein might have jumped them anyway with a 7-1 RvR vs even a 5-2-2 for JCU.  Hard not to feel like that is a little inflated for Otterbein but they won all of their games, so that's the deal when you get to count the teams that drop out after being ranked in Week 3 and then add wins for teams that enter in Week 4.  JCU I think was unfortunate more for the double hit of OWU and Calvin, a huge rivalry game with a perennial power and then Calvin, another perennial power and #1 in two polls.  Will you be shocked, though, if JCU beats OWU and Otterbein loses to Medaille?

You need to remember that when developing the fourth regional rankings, the RvR data available to the committee is results versus teams ranked in the third weekly rankings. You can't have RvR based on the fourth rankings when the fourth rankings haven't been completed yet.  So which teams eventually end up being ranked in the fourth rankings can't and does not impact the process for ranking/ordering the teams for the fourth rankings.

Which teams are ranked in the fourth ranking only impacts/changes one thing: the RvR data the committee uses for comparison across regions when making the at-large selections.  Teams do not get re-ordered/re-ranked based on this updated RvR that includes results against any new teams that entered the fourth rankings.

So, OWU getting ranked in the fourth ranking would not have impacted who was #1 and #2 in the region in the fourth ranking. Marietta getting ranked is not why Otterbein climbed to #1 and John Carroll dropped to #2. That happened becaue after JCU was eliminated by Capital and Otterbein defeated Marietta and Capital, Otterbein had a .895 win pct. and 5-1-0 RvR while JCU had a .842 win pct. and 3-2-2 RvR, and Otterbein won the head-to-head match.  Pretty straightforward to put Otterbein ahead of John Carroll based on the criteria being used. The updated RvR of 7-1-0 that includes Otterbein's two wins over Marietta would only have come into play if they were in Pool C instead of the AQ and were being compared against the Pool C teams from the other regions.

Now, when you look at data sheets (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/men/Data_11-6/Great%20Lakes_Men_Data_11-6-17.pdf) that accompany the fourth rankings (and the data D3soccer.com includes for your convenience on our NCAA regional ranking tables (http://www.d3soccer.com/rankings/2017/men/regional-rankings-F)), you are seeing what the national committee had when deliberating their at-large selections, not what the committees had when putting together the fourth rankings. That is, the data sheets that are released have the updated RvR which includes results against any new teams that entered the fourth rankings.  In D3soccer.com's At-Large Analysis and Predictions piece (http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2017/at-large-analysis-and-predictions), you can find the RvR's that would have been under consideration when developing the fourth rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
This is all fine and good and I am not slamming North park I am just curious HOW North Park jumped Chicago in the Final Rankings if neither team lost and quite frankly Chicago and tougher games...Anyone?

It's certainly a valid question, but, short of getting someone from the committee online or on the phone to explain it, any answer is going to be sheer speculation.

My guess is that the national committee ultimately decided to read RvR as a win-loss percentage criterion, perhaps because the question was coming up in other places besides the Central Region ranking. Or perhaps the bump upwards that NPU got in both overall winning percentage and SOS versus Chicago as a result of last week's results (in which North Park beat both North Central, now 8-7-1 in matches against teams other than NPU, and Carthage, now 13-6-1 in matches against teams other than NPU, while Chicago beat Washington MO, now 7-6-2 in matches against teams other than the U of C, in its only match of the week) was enough to tip the scales in North Park's favor. I have heard secondhand that North Central head coach Matt Klosterman, who is on the national committee, said that NPU and Chicago were extremely close in how the committee viewed them, which should come as no surprise to anyone who views the five primary criteria.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 11:36:41 AMAs to the second point, that also is rhetorical to some degree.  There is a flaw somewhere when not just one national poll, but two have Calvin #1 and in the top 3 or so all season and then the NCAA has them a weak 4th in just their own weak region.  Regardless of who "owns" the polls there is disconnect and cognitive dissonance between the polls -- and also for that matter general consensus among most observers here -- and the treatment/formula by the NCAA when it comes to a Calvin (which gets treated the same as a PS-Behrend or St Joes of Maine).  Maybe two consecutive Final Fours should weigh in at some point.  The point is the disconnect.  I understand the procedural and criterion issues.

A few thoughts:

1) I share Flying Weasel's conclusion that what you view as "flaws" are simply different ranking systems using different criteria for different purposes. The d3soccer.com and United Soccer Coaches polls are subjective attempts to construct genuine national power rankings. The NCAA isn't trying to do that. Although there still remains some subjectivity with which the committee has to deal, it's nevertheless subjectivity that is highly circumscribed by objective criteria (the five primary criteria and the four secondary criteria found on page 22 of the Pre-Championships Manual). The reason why should be obvious -- the more objective the ranking process, the fewer grounds people have to complain about it. After all, the criteria remain the same every year. There's no "cognitive dissonance", and the disconnect is easily explained by the fact that, again, they're different systems that use different criteria for different purposes. Keep in mind that the tournament isn't about getting the 62 best sides into the field. The tournament is about staging a playoff between 62 sides that fairly and faithfully represent the entire membership of D3 as much as possible, which is a different thing altogether. That's how the NCAA operates in all three divisions, in every sport in which it sponsors a championship tournament or meet.

2) Your characterization of Calvin being "a weak 4th in just their own weak region" is likewise subjective and doesn't fit the mandate of the D3 men's soccer national committee. First of all, the Central Region is one of the two smallest of the eight regions in D3 men's soccer, and as such it receives only six slots in its regional rankings, tied with the West for the smallest number of slots out of any of the eight regions. The heavily-populated Northeast Region, by comparison, has twelve ranking slots, and the Mid-Atlantic Region has ten. Yet the d3soccer.com and United Soccer Coaches national polls each rank three Central Region sides among their respective top 25s, which means that the Central Region has 12% of the ranked sides in those two national polls while only receiving 9% of the slots in the NCAA's regional rankings.

3) The issue here lies internally with Calvin as much as anything. Most of that problem is the MIAA's fault, because it's one of the rare leagues in D3 men's soccer that plays a double round-robin schedule. That completely hamstrings the scheduling ability of Calvin coach Ryan Souders and his seven peers, and it also drives the SOS of each MIAA side much closer to .500 than is the case for the vast majority of D3 leagues, which play single round-robin schedules and thus have a plenitude of non-conference matches. Only three times in 38 seasons has the MIAA managed to get two sides into the D3 men's soccer tournament, and this will be the sixth consecutive season in which there is only one MIAA representative. And it's no accident that Calvin was the only regionally-ranked side in all of D3 that did not play a match against a regionally-ranked opponent this season.

4) Previous seasons should not weigh in as factors in NCAA tournament selections and seedings. Each season ought to be taken as an independent set of data points.

I understand that the MIAA schools are on a peninsula, but there are enough D3 schools within driving distance of MIAA campuses to effectively create workable schedules. It's not an insurmountable obstacle, as obviously Calvin makes it work in men's soccer (and in volleyball as well, a sport in which Calvin is nationally dominant). But it is an obstacle whose consequences are self-imposed by the league, and because of it the best sides in the MIAA are always going to have strength-of-schedule issues and RvR issues, and, thus, will suffer in the regional rankings and in tournament seeding.

Souders obviously does try to schedule strategically with the mere four non-conference matches he's allotted; this season he had the Knights play perennial national power Ohio Wesleyan, a Lake Forest side that is an ideal scheduling partner for SOS purposes in that it's a strong program in a weak league, and two recently-solid programs in Case Western Reserve and Oberlin. But the latter two illustrate the difficulty of Souders' task; Oberlin had a down year, which happens, and CWRU had a subpar record because Spartans coach Brandon Bianco decided to have his boys run an absolute gauntlet of high-powered competition. Other coaches could afford to shrug off the SOS hits they get from scheduling Oberlin and CWRU; Calvin can't, because Souders has only four shots to get it right, and the overall performance of his non-conference foes is out of his hands when he schedules them a year or two in advance.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 11:36:41 AMADDENDUM:  And, I would venture to say, that the very cmte members for the NCAA regional rankings and the national cmte responsible for seedings and bracketing KNOW that they are underseeding Calvin simultaneous with doing it.

Proof, please.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 11:36:41 AM[The point was not that by virtue of any poll they should be influenced, but I was more using the polls to make the broader point about how Calvin is perceived by basically everyone....the polls are in that sense merely incidental.]  Hardly ANYONE, from any organization, with any reasonable objectives, would conclude that Calvin gets properly seeded (over the past 3 years let's say).

Disagree. By the standards with which the national committee operates -- standards that everybody knows ahead of time, are as objective as possible, and which don't change from year to year -- it appears that Calvin is being properly seeded. As is the case in volleyball, Calvin doesn't seem to be handicapped by that.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 11:36:41 AMThey (the NCAA cmtes) are a slave to their criteria which in the case of Calvin and occasionally other teams they know are faulty.  As to whether they should follow their criteria to the letter anyway, against their own joint instincts apart from those criteria, is a whole different question, and one where reasonable folks might differ.

What you consider to be committees that are "a slave to their criteria" [sic] is how the NCAA operates in each and every championship playoff in all three divisions, regardless of sport (in the sports that hold playoffs rather than meets, of course). You also appear to be projecting here; you're assuming that they have "joint instincts" against which they're operating. I don't see what your basis is for assuming that their "joint instincts", if they even have any, line up with yours.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 05:17:29 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 07, 2017, 04:34:56 PM
I know when it comes to the football tournament the implication we've been given by interviews with past committee members is that they should try and limit the first and second round flights as strictly as possible. That is done 2 or maybe 3 first round flights, and pods generally built to limit flights as much as competitively possible, through the first 3 rounds. So we usually end up with the geographic orphan conferences, the ASC, SCIAC, and NWC getting somewhat screwed in the early rounds as they play against each other, regardless of their true committee rankings, to limit flights in the first two rounds.

However, for the rest of the teams, so long as they are inside the 500 mile cut off for flying, teams can be sent just about anywhere to try and provide as fair a competition as the committee can design. So for each of the 4 8 team brackets, outside the orphan pod, the goal is to get a 1 seed as close to an 8 seed match up as the 500 miles can allow and so on for 2-7, 3-6, 4-5.

The committee does not seem constrained by mileage under 500 in setting up these possibilities, so teams generally teams will drive past possibilities to set up balance. A few years ago W&L went 492 miles or so, by the NCAA's TES system, to play Hobart. I don't know how many closer games they could have played, but that set up the "fairest" match up, according to the National Committee's seeding and views on the two teams.

I'd assume soccer works similarly. The National Committee is told to avoid as many flights as possible early in quite strong terms, but told that within the flight limit they should set up as fair a tournament as they think can be done with reasonable possibilities of avoiding flights in the later rounds.

Thanks for that insight.  It confirms what has seemed rather evident over the past 10+ years that 5 miles or 495 miles is largely inconsequential to the bracketing process.  It's when it goes over 500 that it's an issue due to having to pay for flights.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:22:27 PM
^^^^I'm still confused. So they don't matter for the Week 4 regional rankings but they are considered for at large selections? Is that what you're saying? All of us including RH had been considering the potential impact of, for example, OWU getting ranked in terms of giving a boost or not to some teams, with the understanding that OWU getting ranked would "count."
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 05:40:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:22:27 PM
^^^^I'm still confused. So they don't matter for the Week 4 regional rankings but they are considered for at large selections? Is that what you're saying? All of us including RH had been considering the potential impact of, for example, OWU getting ranked in terms of giving a boost or not to some teams, with the understanding that OWU getting ranked would "count."

Yes, that's what I am saying and unless I have misunderstood Ryan Harmanis' grasp of the process, I think he and I are on the same page.  He can correct me if that is not the case. 

We laid out the following breakdown of the process in Part I of our At-large Berth Analysis and Predictions piece (http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2017/at-large-analysis-and-predictions).
QuoteFollowing the release of the third weekly regional rankings the process is as follows.

• Conference championships are completed by 6:00 p.m. ET, Sunday, November 6.

• The NCAA compiles the data corresponding to the at-large selection criteria (win-loss-tie percentage against Division III opponents, results versus ranked Division III teams, Division III Strength-of-schedule) and provides it to Regional Advisory Committees.

• The Regional Advisory Committees do their fourth regional rankings in the same manner as the previous three weeks. The results versus ranked Division III teams (RvR) criteria is based on who was ranked in the third regional rankings that were released on Wednesday, November 1.

• The national committee makes adjustments to the regional rankings as they see fit but does not publish them until after they have announced the tournament field (including the at-large berth selections).

• An updated RvR is developed based on opponents were ranked in either the third or the just completed fourth regional rankings. This is the RvR that the national committee will use when comparing teams across regions on a national basis.

• Pool B teams (independent institutions and institutions that are members of conferences that do not receive an automatic berth in the tournament) in the final regional rankings are identified.

• The highest ranked Pool B candidate from each region is placed "on the board", the teams are discussed, and one team is selected for the lone Pool B berth.

• Pool C teams (teams who were not awarded their conference's automatic berth and unselected Pool B teams) in the final regional rankings are identified.

• The highest ranked Pool C candidate from each region is placed "on the board", the eight teams discussed, and one team is selected. The next highest ranked Pool C candidate from the selected team's region is added to the board and the process repeats until all 19 Pool C at-large berths have been awarded.

The potential boost teams could have gotten from OWU getting ranked was for their at-large resume when being compared with Pool C team across the nation, not for their regional rankings when compared to other teams form the region.  It's basically impossible (creates an infinite loop) to try to base the fourth rankings on the results of the same fourth rankings.  When the committees make their conference call Sunday afternoon to start working on the fourth rankings, the data sheets prepare for them could not possibly have RvR based on the fourth rankings because they haven't yet been done.  To have rankings that could consider results versus teams in the fourth rankings, the committee would have to do a fifth ranking.  And where does it stop.  As we understand the process it stops with the fourth rankings which consider results versus teams in the third rankings.  It is for at-large selection purposes, not ranking purposes, that the RvR expands to include teams ranked in either the third or fourth rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:41:14 PM
Wow.  This is getting tedious.  I know all the arguments about SoS and playing every team in the conference twice, etc, etc.  I think we are disagreeing primarily at some semantic level.  I could go into a very long response, but let's try this first.

The bracket comes out.  North Park is a top 4 seed and #1 in a quad but without a bye.  First round opponent?  The Calvin Knights.  You're not going to experience a single second of cognitive dissonance???  I think I've seen you talk before about North Park not getting proper respect at times.  That's the level at which I am commenting about Calvin, and the level at which I believe the cmte members would have some level of joint agreement off the record at least.  Or do you want to tell me that the cmte members truly believed a couple of weeks ago that Benedictine was stronger than Calvin.  It's not just about Souders and the MIAA or whatever.  It's not just Calvin that is impacted.  And, indeed, Calvin seems to handle this just fine.  It's the opponents that unfairly suffer.  And if Messiah drew Calvin in Round 1 I bet we'd see at least a couple of comments. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:44:08 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 05:40:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:22:27 PM
^^^^I'm still confused. So they don't matter for the Week 4 regional rankings but they are considered for at large selections? Is that what you're saying? All of us including RH had been considering the potential impact of, for example, OWU getting ranked in terms of giving a boost or not to some teams, with the understanding that OWU getting ranked would "count."

Yes, that's what I am saying and unless I have misunderstood Ryan Harmanis' grasp of the process, I think he and I are on the same page.  He can correct me if that is not the case. 

We laid out the following breakdown of the process in Part I of our At-large Berth Analysis and Predictions piece (http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2017/at-large-analysis-and-predictions).
QuoteFollowing the release of the third weekly regional rankings the process is as follows.

• Conference championships are completed by 6:00 p.m. ET, Sunday, November 6.

• The NCAA compiles the data corresponding to the at-large selection criteria (win-loss-tie percentage against Division III opponents, results versus ranked Division III teams, Division III Strength-of-schedule) and provides it to Regional Advisory Committees.

• The Regional Advisory Committees do their fourth regional rankings in the same manner as the previous three weeks. The results versus ranked Division III teams (RvR) criteria is based on who was ranked in the third regional rankings that were released on Wednesday, November 1.

• The national committee makes adjustments to the regional rankings as they see fit but does not publish them until after they have announced the tournament field (including the at-large berth selections).

• An updated RvR is developed based on opponents were ranked in either the third or the just completed fourth regional rankings. This is the RvR that the national committee will use when comparing teams across regions on a national basis.

• Pool B teams (independent institutions and institutions that are members of conferences that do not receive an automatic berth in the tournament) in the final regional rankings are identified.

• The highest ranked Pool B candidate from each region is placed "on the board", the teams are discussed, and one team is selected for the lone Pool B berth.

• Pool C teams (teams who were not awarded their conference's automatic berth and unselected Pool B teams) in the final regional rankings are identified.

• The highest ranked Pool C candidate from each region is placed "on the board", the eight teams discussed, and one team is selected. The next highest ranked Pool C candidate from the selected team's region is added to the board and the process repeats until all 19 Pool C at-large berths have been awarded.

The potential boost teams could have gotten from OWU getting ranked was for their at-large resume when being compared with Pool C team across the nation, not for their regional rankings when compared to other teams form the region.  It's basically impossible (creates an infinite loop) to try to base the fourth rankings on the results of the same fourth rankings.  When the committees make their conference call Sunday afternoon to start working on the fourth rankings, the data sheets prepare for them could not possibly have RvR based on the fourth rankings because they haven't yet been done.  To have rankings that could consider results versus teams in the fourth rankings, the committee would have to do a fifth ranking.  And where does it stop.  As we understand the process it stops with the fourth rankings which consider results versus teams in the third rankings.  It is for at-large selection purposes, not ranking purposes, that the RvRexpands to include teams ranked in either the third or fourth rankings.

OK, so it is correct to say that the extra wins or losses could have impacted Pool C selections which was the primary interest all along, and which could have resulted in a team in the same region being pushed ahead of another on the Pool C board.  RH alluded to such in his examples in his analysis of predictions and what could for example happen in GL.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:47:54 PM
And maybe this will help....I was not claiming that the cmte would secretly think they underseeded Calvin according to their mandate criteria...but rather, in terms of what they viewed as Calvin's ability, aside from those mandate criteria.

I'm only trying to get at the point that most here agree on and that isn't dependent on this poll or that poll or whatever....Calvin is perceived to be (with good reason) one of the top D3 soccer teams in the nation....period....and if you draw them, you likely are not jumping for joy.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 05:52:58 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:44:08 PM
OK, so it is correct to say that the extra wins or losses could have impacted Pool Co selections which was the primary interest all along, and which could have resulted in a team in the same region being pushed ahead of another on the Pool C board.  RH alluded to such in his examples in his analysis of predictions and what could for example happen in GL.

I've re-read what Ryan wrote in his predictions and I see nothing that suggests he thought OWU or Marietta being ranked would change any teams regional ranking and thus when their turn came up to be under consideration for an at-large berth against the top remaining Pool C candidate from the other regions.  As I read it, he suggests that wins against OWU or Marietta if they got ranked would help their at-large case (not their regional ranking case).

Quote7. John Carroll (15-2-2) - Of the remaining teams, John Carroll has the second-highest winning percentage and an above average record-versus-ranked. If Marietta or Ohio Wesleyan enters the final Great Lakes rankings, a fourth ranked win would only confirm JCU's bid.

Quote10. Kenyon (15-2-3) - The Lords have a balanced profile that should be more than enough. Kenyon is the only team left with a winning percentage over 0.800, and, like John Carroll, could pick up a third ranked win depending on the final rankings.

Quote18. Capital (12-7-2) - The SoS is stellar, and Capital has improved the record-versus-ranked to four (possibly five) wins, but two hurdles remain. First, if the Crusaders don't jump Carnegie Mellon, they might never be up for discussion. Second, seven losses might be too many. Capital has the exact same record that Wheaton (Mass.)—one of my big misses—had last year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 06:16:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:41:14 PM
Wow.  This is getting tedious.  I know all the arguments about SoS and playing every team in the conference twice, etc, etc.  I think we are disagreeing primarily at some semantic level.  I could go into a very long response, but let's try this first.

The bracket comes out.  North Park is a top 4 seed and #1 in a quad but without a bye.  First round opponent?  The Calvin Knights.  You're not going to experience a single second of cognitive dissonance???

First of all, that was never going to happen. Number-one seeds don't play opening-round opponents who were ranked #4 in their respective regions. Take a look at who the top seeds in each quadrant are playing this coming weekend:

* North Park drew a bye, and will play either regionally-unranked Westminster (MO) or #5 West UW-Platteville in the second round;

* Chicago will play regionally-unranked Lake Forest in the first round, and then (assuming a Maroons triumph) either #3 Central Dominican or #5 Great Lakes Capital in the second round;

* Tufts drew a bye, and will play either regionally-unranked Mitchell or #11 Northeast St. Joseph's (ME) in the second round; and

* Messiah will play regionally-unranked Castleton in the first round, and then (assuming a Falcons win) either #3 East Buffalo State or #5 East Hobart in the second round.

In other words, there's no way that Calvin would ever be scheduled to play a top seed any earlier than the second round.

But if it had happened that NPU had to play in the first round and had the possibility of facing Calvin in the second round, would I be experiencing cognitive dissonance? Nope. None whatsoever. I can say that truly and honestly, knowing that Calvin was the #4 side in its region, and, more importantly, why Calvin was the #4 side in its region. Given the ranking of the Knights, and fully understanding that their prowess on the pitch is in no dispute, somebody with a roughly equal regional rank was going to have to be the unlucky outfit that faced Calvin right off the bat, and it so happens that Thomas More (#4 Great Lakes) drew the short straw. But that makes sense in terms of bracketing, because it pits two #4s (i.e., two sides in the middle of the pack as far as the regional rankings go in the bracket's western half) against each other in the first round. The pod's host, John Carroll, earned hosting privileges as a #2, while regionally-unranked Ohio Wesleyan has to deal with playing the Blue Streaks on JCU's pitch. If anything, the committee's bracketeer(s) showed Calvin a little deference by putting the Knights in a pod hosted by a mere #2.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:41:14 PMI think I've seen you talk before about North Park not getting proper respect at times.  That's the level at which I am commenting about Calvin, and the level at which I believe the cmte members would have some level of joint agreement off the record at least.

Actually, it isn't. We're talking about two different things here. I've felt that North Park deserved more respect in terms of national attention as a quality program, not in terms of its earned status with regard to tournament seeding and hosting privileges. I've already said that NPU's favorable situation in this year's bracket may be in part the result of geography. Calvin? Everybody properly respects the Calvin men's soccer program. That's not an issue. But respect and qualifications are two entirely different things.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:41:14 PMOr do you want to tell me that the cmte members truly believed a couple of weeks ago that Benedictine was stronger than Calvin.

You keep injecting terms like "believed" and "instincts" into this conversation. Those are subjective terms. Once again, this is about how teams measure up according to predetermined, universally-accessible and -understood, objective criteria. So, no, I'm not telling you that the committee thought that Benedictine would beat Calvin if you lined up the two sides and let them go at it. What I'm telling you is that they never even considered that, because such matters were not within the purview of their task.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 05:41:14 PMIt's not just about Souders and the MIAA or whatever.  It's not just Calvin that is impacted.  And, indeed, Calvin seems to handle this just fine.  It's the opponents that unfairly suffer.  And if Messiah drew Calvin in Round 1 I bet we'd see at least a couple of comments.

As I've said, there's no way that Messiah would draw Calvin in the first round. And it's not "unfair"; it's the way that predetermined, universally-accessible and -understood, objective criteria work.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:23:07 PM
Christan, OK, I'll accept your explanation and accept that is what RH meant as well.  Still don't see how an extra win could have helped Capital vis-a-vis, let's say Conn College, but not CMU.  If all the teams under are under Pool C consideration they I still don't get why extra wins would be a barrier in your own region but not with any other region.

Strike the above, because I know the cmte has one team on the board at a time and that you don't get to the next team in the region unless the team before in the region already has been selected. I'll just conclude that it is odd for something to count versus the other teams in other regions but not within your own, and I was under the impression that RH was considering whether Cap might jump CMU based on extra wins.  I'll have to look at why in fact Cap did jump CMU.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PM
Mr. Sager, So you didn't answer the question, stating instead why that couldn't happen.  It could still happen in theory.  Calvin with a change in stats here or there could have landed last in their regional rankings or even been unranked.  But you approximate my point by conceding you could draw them in Round 2 and you state you wouldn't flinch in the least.  I'll have to take your word on that.  You're a better man than me, and perhaps many others, because I could see myself acknowledging that all of the criteria and procedures were followed correctly and meticulously and still feel unlucky at the very least (and likely something very akin to knee-jerk cognitive dissonance).

Elsewhere, you made my point, when you write..." I'm not telling you that the committee thought that Benedictine would beat Calvin if you lined up the two sides and let them go at it. "  That's basically all I was saying.

We can disagree about lack of respect -- "respect and qualifications are two entirely different things."  I never argued that they aren't different.  I argued that there can be an experience of dissonance between the two things.  In other words, I can accept the mandate criteria were followed, and I also can hold that the result is inconsistent with a team's known ability.

"...fully understanding that their prowess on the pitch is in no dispute" --- So you're agreeing there is no dispute.  I thought you weren't conceding that most would agree on that, which is all I was saying cmte members would say to each other aside from their task, which of course I would expect them to fulfill as mandated to do so.

How do you think the JCU and OWU fans are feeling seeing Calvin sitting there in the 2nd round?  Which, to repeat, is different than whether they understand that proper procedures were followed.

And I didn't say Messiah drawing Calvin would be "unfair."  I simply said Falcon fans wouldn't be pleased about it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on November 07, 2017, 06:50:07 PM
Yeah it is tough, as a JCU "fan" and really a Great Lakes/OAC "fan" in the tournament going forward.

I don't claim to know all the intricacies of seeding and placement, but seeing Calvin there was just surprising, because I believe Calvin to be much better than say Dominican/Capital or other teams in pod 2, game 2 of their respective regions in comparison to JCU's position.

I have to hope JCU plays really good, and Calvin suffers from travel, recovery on a back-to-back, and a tough away atmosphere. That being said, I think JCU/OWU does have a chance to beat Calvin, and I look forward to that match.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2017, 07:04:36 PM
This is a fascinating discussion.   Meanwhile, in the women's volleyball playoffs, four of the top six teams in the country are in one of the eight regionals.   How would you like to be #6 and find yourself in the same region as #1, #4, and #5?   That's what Claremont-Mudd-Scripps is facing, even while there's another regional without so much as a single top 25 team.   Even recognizing the disconnect between rankings and NCAA selection criteria, that's nuts, but that's what happens when travel dollars are a primary consideration.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 07:19:59 PM
Cristan, sorry, probably should have a separate thread.

I guess there are a couple of things I still don't follow.

I get why there isn't a RvR in Week 1 given no preceding ranking.  What I don't get is why the cmtes can't consider the final rankings in calculating RvR within region, and, beyond that, if you can't, why you could vis-a-vis teams in other regions.  On what principle would cmtes be prohibited from calculating RvR within regions given that there will be no further rankings?  It's my understanding that the very first task before selecting Pool C's is to come up with the final, final regional rankings.  Once the Week 4 rankings are completed, why would cmtes be prohibited from conducting a final tally based on who ended up ranked?  Because that would amount to a 5th ranking?  And is there any reason that 5th ranking shouldn't happen?

Finally, what if the head cmte goes around for a selection round and determined that the closest competitor for the next spot actually is within the same region?  Are you saying that the cmte is prohibited from considering two teams in the same region, perhaps based on looking at the data based on changes resulting from those 4th rankings?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 07:25:36 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
This is all fine and good and I am not slamming North park I am just curious HOW North Park jumped Chicago in the Final Rankings if neither team lost and quite frankly Chicago and tougher games...Anyone?

It's certainly a valid question, but, short of getting someone from the committee online or on the phone to explain it, any answer is going to be sheer speculation.

My guess is that the national committee ultimately decided to read RvR as a win-loss percentage criterion, perhaps because the question was coming up in other places besides the Central Region ranking. Or perhaps the bump upwards that NPU got in both overall winning percentage and SOS versus Chicago as a result of last week's results (in which North Park beat both North Central, now 8-7-1 in matches against teams other than NPU, and Carthage, now 13-6-1 in matches against teams other than NPU, while Chicago beat Washington MO, now 7-6-2 in matches against teams other than the U of C, in its only match of the week) was enough to tip the scales in North Park's favor. I have heard secondhand that North Central head coach Matt Klosterman, who is on the national committee, said that NPU and Chicago were extremely close in how the committee viewed them, which should come as no surprise to anyone who views the five primary criteria.



So wins against 2 average teams is going to bump you ahead of a win against 1 average team? Seems a bit questionable to me. It has nothing to do with hosting because Chicago is already hosting. If they had all the same criteria in front of them a week earlier and put Chicago #1 and North Park #2 then the only reasonable explanation for the bump for North Park would be the extra win because of a conference tournament. IDK I am not an expert on these things but that seems weak
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 07:40:53 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:23:07 PM
Christan, OK, I'll accept your explanation and accept that is what RH meant as well.  Still don't see how an extra win could have helped Capital vis-a-vis, let's say Conn College, but not CMU.  If all the teams under are under Pool C consideration they I still don't get why extra wins would be a barrier in your own region but not with any other region.

Strike the above, because I know the cmte has one team on the board at a time and that you don't get to the next team in the region unless the team before in the region already has been selected. I'll just conclude that it is odd for something to count versus the other teams in other regions but not within your own, and I was under the impression that RH was considering whether Cap might jump CMU based on extra wins.  I'll have to look at why in fact Cap did jump CMU.

One more observation.  The development of the fourth rankings, and thus the at-large pecking order of Pool C teams from a region, has not changed from prior years.  It has considered and continues to consider results versus teams ranked in the third rankings.  That part of the process has not changed one bit.  But in prior seasons, the RvR being considered for at-large deliberations and decisions across regions was based on teams ranked in the fourth rankings only.  Therefore, as teams waited for the tournament field announcements, they couldn't know what their and other teams RvR was because they didn't know who had made the fourth rankings. Combine that with the fact that for five years (2011-2015) those fourth rankings were not published even after the fact like, and you have the basis for concern about accountability and transparency in the process as well as more chance for surprise upon learning who was selected. 

So while you may have a point that it doesn't make sense to use different data to compare a team to its regional competitors than is used to compare the same team to rival at-large candidates from other regions, this is a by-product of enabling teams (and fans) to have much better knowledge of the data that will be used to make the at-large selections.  Sure a team's RvR can have a result or two added to it if a new team or two enters the fourth rankings, but the RvR based on who was ranked in the third rankings is locked in.  If you have 4 wins versus ranked teams based on the third rankings, you know that you will have all four of those wins on your resume for at-large deliberations.  You weren't guaranteed that previously when there was potential for surprise when a team didn't get selected because, unknowable to them, their RvR took a hit when a couple teams fell out of the fourth rankings.  Like John Carroll in 2014.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Caz Bombers on November 07, 2017, 07:44:16 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 07, 2017, 07:04:36 PM
This is a fascinating discussion.   Meanwhile, in the women's volleyball playoffs, four of the top six teams in the country are in one of the eight regionals.   How would you like to be #6 and find yourself in the same region as #1, #4, and #5?   That's what Claremont-Mudd-Scripps is facing, even while there's another regional without so much as a single top 25 team.   Even recognizing the disconnect between rankings and NCAA selection criteria, that's nuts, but that's what happens when travel dollars are a primary consideration.

The volleyball disconnect is even more pronounced in Division II, where the hard-cap regionalization model will make an undefeated team in the insane thunderdome of the Central region a #8 seed (or out altogether if they suffer their first loss in their conference tournament) while you could put together an East Region All-Star team that still might not win a single set off any team in the Central.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 07:58:12 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 07:19:59 PM
Cristan, sorry, probably should have a separate thread.

I guess there are a couple of things I still don't follow.

I get why there isn't a RvR in Week 1 given no preceding ranking.  What I don't get is why the cmtes can't consider the final rankings in calculating RvR within region, and, beyond that, if you can't, why you could vis-a-vis teams in other regions.  On what principle would cmtes be prohibited from calculating RvR within regions given that there will be no further rankings?  It's my understanding that the very first task before selecting Pool C's is to come up with the final, final regional rankings.  Once the Week 4 rankings are completed, why would cmtes be prohibited from conducting a final tally based on who ended up ranked?  Because that would amount to a 5th ranking?  And is there any reason that 5th ranking shouldn't happen?

Finally, what if the head cmte goes around for a selection round and determined that the closest competitor for the next spot actually is within the same region?  Are you saying that the cmte is prohibited from considering two teams in the same region, perhaps based on looking at the data based on changes resulting from those 4th rankings?

Read my previous reply. 

This is mostly about teams knowing as much as possible about their (and other teams') at-large resume as they await the announcements, thus minimizing the chance for being surprised by the at-large selections.  If the RvR is based solely on a ranking that the teams and fans don't get to see before hand (which was the case prior to this year and would be the case again if they did a fifth ranking as you suggest), then teams and fans can't get as good a feel for where their team stands and thus could be surprised by the at-large selections.

The whole point of the doing the regional rankings was to foreshadow the at-large selections and eliminate/minimize surprise at (and thus questioning of) the at-large selections.  And they have done a great job of fulfilling that purpose (the fact that we have consistently predicted 85 to 95% of the selections is testament to that).  However, the fact that one of the most important selection criteria, RvR, couldn't be known by the team and fans because it was based on a ranking that isn't published until after the fact, meant a chance for surprise that could be minimized further by expanding the RvR to include teams ranked in either the third or the (unknown until after the fact) fourth rankings.

This is about predictability.  This is a reaction to the John Carroll snub a few years.  They would have been selected if this year's RvR criteria had been in place.  But that year, they lost a couple wins versus ranked teams when two opponents were dropped from the fourth ranking.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 08:02:44 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PM
Mr. Sager, So you didn't answer the question, stating instead why that couldn't happen.

I think that stating why something can't happen is an answer to a question. If you ask me if Superman can fly faster than Green Lantern can, my reply will be that neither one of them is real. :D

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMIt could still happen in theory.

No, it couldn't, because that's not how bracketology works. When you create a bracket, you always match up the top teams with the bottom teams and the middle teams with the middle teams in the first round. That's true even in the somewhat-distorted landscape of D3 sports (OK, very distorted when talking about teams west of the Mississippi, as Ron pointed out). Calvin is squarely in the middle among the teams in the western half of D3 in terms of regional ranking. Therefore, the Knights ended up in the middle of the seeding in the western half of the bracket. Given their results to date this season, they could never have been paired up with a #1 seed in the first round.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMCalvin with a change in stats here or there could have landed last in their regional rankings or even been unranked.

That counterfactual makes the whole point moot, because when you talk about "a change in stats" you're talking about wins and losses. And a Calvin side that took more losses is clearly not the kind of Calvin side that you would be defending so ardently, because the Knights wouldn't have the W-L résumé to warrant it.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMBut you approximate my point by conceding you could draw them in Round 2 and you state you wouldn't flinch in the least.

I don't really see how it's "conceding" something when I'm the one who brought it up in the first place, but whatever. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMI'll have to take your word on that.  You're a better man than me, and perhaps many others, because I could see myself acknowledging that all of the criteria and procedures were followed correctly and meticulously and still feel unlucky at the very least (and likely something very akin to knee-jerk cognitive dissonance).

Oh, I'd definitely feel unlucky, no doubt about it. I suspect that if you asked Thomas More coach Eric Busener right now about having to play Calvin in the first round he'd put on a brave face and might say something about how you have to play good opponents in the tournament, anyway, and that there's no such thing as an easy path to Greensboro, or words to that effect. But privately he might very well be griping to his assistants about his side's draw in the bracket. As I said, I'd feel the same way if it was NPU rather than TMC that was in that situation. But it's possible to hold those two thoughts at the same time -- the thought that your side is unlucky for having to face Calvin in the first round, and the thought that it makes sense in terms of bracketing.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMElsewhere, you made my point, when you write..." I'm not telling you that the committee thought that Benedictine would beat Calvin if you lined up the two sides and let them go at it. "  That's basically all I was saying.

That's fine. I think that we agree on a truism there. But my point was that it had, and has, nothing to do with whether or not Calvin was treated fairly by the committee.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMWe can disagree about lack of respect -- "respect and qualifications are two entirely different things."  I never argued that they aren't different.  I argued that there can be an experience of dissonance between the two things.  In other words, I can accept the mandate criteria were followed, and I also can hold that the result is inconsistent with a team's known ability.

See, I don't consider those things to be dissonant at all. Nor do I expect consistency between them, because you don't expect consistency between apples and oranges. When you adopt objective criteria to use in constructing your bracket, as the NCAA has across the board in its various sports and divisions, by definition you have to remove subjective considerations of strength from the conversation. And that's true whether or not there's consensus around those subjective considerations. In other words, I have no problem keeping the two conversations apart from each other. Again, the NCAA doesn't hold men's soccer tournaments that are designed to include the 62 top sides in D3. The NCAA holds men's soccer tournaments that are first and foremost designed around equity and fairness in representation by demonstrable measurements for the entire D3 constituency.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PM"...fully understanding that their prowess on the pitch is in no dispute" --- So you're agreeing there is no dispute.  I thought you weren't conceding that most would agree on that, which is all I was saying cmte members would say to each other aside from their task, which of course I would expect them to fulfill as mandated to do so.

Nope. I wasn't saying that at all. I was simply saying that I'm not a mind-reader, and I'm pretty sure that you aren't one, either. When I say that Calvin's prowess isn't in dispute, I mean exactly that -- I have yet to read or hear anybody write or say that Calvin isn't a quality side in 2017, and that includes the members of the committee.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMHow do you think the JCU and OWU fans are feeling seeing Calvin sitting there in the 2nd round?  Which, to repeat, is different than whether they understand that proper procedures were followed.

I have no idea. I don't know about JCU, aside from bestfancle, but I do know that there are OWU fans who frequent these boards. You should ask them that question, not me.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 06:33:33 PMAnd I didn't say Messiah drawing Calvin would be "unfair."  I simply said Falcon fans wouldn't be pleased about it.

They probably wouldn't ... but, then again, they'd have the right to think that the Falcons were the victims of a conspiracy, or at least bad bracket construction, since Grantham and Grand Rapids are over 600 miles apart. :D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
Yeah, I would vote for, not a 5th ranking, but considering RvR based on the 4th rankings and not just the 3rd.  Sounds like you're saying they do that for at-large comparisons between regions but not within regions.  That just doesn't follow for me, but I'll leave that there until next year when my team or another I like gets snubbed  ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 08:05:20 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 07, 2017, 04:01:20 PM
Yes, when it comes to bracketing, there is info we don't have.  Who did or did not bid to host being among that info we are not privy to.  And sometimes we can forget about rotating hosting priority when both men's and women's teams are in NCAA's.  Sometimes the host is picked because they are the central team in the pod that doesn't require anyone to fly.

As to the limited budget and wanting to limit travel and flights, well, first, any complaints about not opening the purse strings more goes need to go to a different higher level of the NCAA than complaints specific to seeding and bracketing which are the responsibility of the D-III men's and women's soccer committees.  In other words, those imposing the financial constraints are not the same people who have to operate within those constraints in administrating the tournament.

Given the financial constraints imposed upon the D-III men's and women's soccer committees, I have much fewer complaints than others about the bracketing each year. Back in the 80's, 90's and into the 00's, the first two (or three) rounds were originally strictly regional and later roughly regional with the same teams meeting time and time again over the years. Around the same time that the tournament field really expanded in the mid-00's there was also a notable shift in bracketing with more and more inter-regional match-ups in the early rounds.  The expanded field made that possible, but given the travel cost concerns, it was not inevitable or necessary to mix things up like they started doing.  So I credit the committees for that. Yes, teams would drive past other host sites to get to where they were playing.  It was a great change to break up the stale repeated match-ups of both regular season games and previous NCAA tournaments.  It was a very welcomed development that made the tournament more interesting with match-ups that otherwise wouldn't happen.  It almost seems like there is some complaining now about sending teams to mixed-region pods.  Do you really want the alternative. 

Now I get wanting the top seeds to be rewarded with hosting or whatever gives them an advantage that they apparently have earned (such as a shorter drive if not hosting).  But for all the complaining about not enough money being made available for the tournament, why would we complain when they do spend some money to mix things up and create inter-regional match-ups in round 1 and 2?


Agree with this as by the late 90's it was just assumed that if you got out of New England you would be playing a NJAC school. I will say that these regional matchups every year did make for some really great rivalries that would have never occurred otherwise. Trivia question: Why did the NCAA in 2004 decide to expand the tournament to make for about 16 more Pool C's?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:10:43 PM
"it's possible to hold those two thoughts at the same time -- the thought that your side is unlucky for having to face Calvin in the first round, and the thought that it makes sense in terms of bracketing."

Exactly.

And Calvin very easily could have been #5.  I think they were at points last year.  And they could be unranked.  And not necessarily because of more losses.  They had just about the same record last year.

And all I said at the beginning was that the cmte would agree Calvin was a top side.  You call that mind-reading.  I call that common sense, especially when you say everyone here on this board is in agreement about that.  There is a dissonance between what we understand to be a general consensus and the criteria that I am agreeing with you the cmte must follow.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 08:17:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
Yeah, I would vote for, not a 5th ranking, but considering RvR based on the 4th rankings and not just the 3rd.  Sounds like you're saying they do that for at-large comparisons between regions but not within regions.  That just doesn't follow for me, but I'll leave that there until next year when my team or another I like gets snubbed  ;)

You're just messing with me, right?  Please don't tell me you don't grasp that you can't use data (RvR) based on the fourth rankings in the formulation of the fourth rankings.  Unless there is some staffer with a crystal ball, the data sheets that are provided to the committees Sunday afternoon when they sit down to formulate the fourth rankings can't possibly have RvR based on the yet to be done fourth rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:20:13 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 08:17:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
Yeah, I would vote for, not a 5th ranking, but considering RvR based on the 4th rankings and not just the 3rd.  Sounds like you're saying they do that for at-large comparisons between regions but not within regions.  That just doesn't follow for me, but I'll leave that there until next year when my team or another I like gets snubbed  ;)

You're just messing with me, right?  Please don't tell me you don't grasp that you can't use data (RvR) based on the fourth rankings in the formulation of the fourth rankings.  Unless there is some staffer with a crystal ball, the data sheets that are provided to the committees Sunday afternoon when they sit down to formulate the fourth rankings can't possibly have RvR based on the yet to be done fourth rankings.

OK, so maybe I am talking about a 5th ranking.  I really just meant using the 4th rankings to see where everyone ended up based on those....like how you are saying they are doing region vs region but not within region when selecting.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 07:25:36 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
This is all fine and good and I am not slamming North park I am just curious HOW North Park jumped Chicago in the Final Rankings if neither team lost and quite frankly Chicago and tougher games...Anyone?

It's certainly a valid question, but, short of getting someone from the committee online or on the phone to explain it, any answer is going to be sheer speculation.

My guess is that the national committee ultimately decided to read RvR as a win-loss percentage criterion, perhaps because the question was coming up in other places besides the Central Region ranking. Or perhaps the bump upwards that NPU got in both overall winning percentage and SOS versus Chicago as a result of last week's results (in which North Park beat both North Central, now 8-7-1 in matches against teams other than NPU, and Carthage, now 13-6-1 in matches against teams other than NPU, while Chicago beat Washington MO, now 7-6-2 in matches against teams other than the U of C, in its only match of the week) was enough to tip the scales in North Park's favor. I have heard secondhand that North Central head coach Matt Klosterman, who is on the national committee, said that NPU and Chicago were extremely close in how the committee viewed them, which should come as no surprise to anyone who views the five primary criteria.



So wins against 2 average teams is going to bump you ahead of a win against 1 average team? Seems a bit questionable to me. It has nothing to do with hosting because Chicago is already hosting. If they had all the same criteria in front of them a week earlier and put Chicago #1 and North Park #2 then the only reasonable explanation for the bump for North Park would be the extra win because of a conference tournament. IDK I am not an expert on these things but that seems weak

Well, you asked for speculation, and I provided some. And we're not talking about three average sides, since average by definition means .500. We're talking about two slightly-above-average sides (North Central = .531 for NPU's SOS, and Washington MO = .533 for the U of C's SOS) and one substantially-above-average side (Carthage = .675 for NPU's SOS), causing a bigger gain in SOS this past week for the Vikings than for the Maroons, plus NPU going 2-0 to improve from a .906 winning percentage to .917 (a boost of 11 percentage points) while the U of C went 1-0 to improve from a .882 winning percentage to an .889 winning percentage (a boost of 7 percentage points). Those are definitely miniscule movements in SOS and W%, but they may have been all that was necessary to sway the committee. Again, I don't know for a fact that this was their thinking. I'm just speculating, based upon the evidence at hand.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:20:13 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 08:17:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
Yeah, I would vote for, not a 5th ranking, but considering RvR based on the 4th rankings and not just the 3rd.  Sounds like you're saying they do that for at-large comparisons between regions but not within regions.  That just doesn't follow for me, but I'll leave that there until next year when my team or another I like gets snubbed  ;)

You're just messing with me, right?  Please don't tell me you don't grasp that you can't use data (RvR) based on the fourth rankings in the formulation of the fourth rankings.  Unless there is some staffer with a crystal ball, the data sheets that are provided to the committees Sunday afternoon when they sit down to formulate the fourth rankings can't possibly have RvR based on the yet to be done fourth rankings.

OK, so maybe I am talking about a 5th ranking.  I really just meant using the 4th rankings to see where everyone ended up based on those....like how you are saying they are doing region vs region but not within region when selecting.

And then you using a RvR criteria for both regional rankings and for at-large selections that can't be known by the teams and fans because it's based on a ranking unknown to them until after the fact.  The new RvR criteria was put in place precisely to eliminate this.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:27:23 PM
So they could publish that data as this site did but do it before the selections, the night before or that morning.

And based on what you are saying, teams STILL won't know if they are getting a Pool C because the new data will be considered region versus region.  I don't see the huge gain in terms of transparency if they are going to use the data for everything EXCEPT within region.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:28:41 PM
So, LAST YEAR, national finalist Calvin, as late as the 3RD RANKING, was ranked #6 out of 6 in Central.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 08:32:49 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:10:43 PM
"it's possible to hold those two thoughts at the same time -- the thought that your side is unlucky for having to face Calvin in the first round, and the thought that it makes sense in terms of bracketing."

Exactly.

And Calvin very easily could have been #5.  I think they were at points last year.  And they could be unranked.  And not necessarily because of more losses.  They had just about the same record last year.

And all I said at the beginning was that the cmte would agree Calvin was a top side.  You call that mind-reading.  I call that common sense, especially when you say everyone here on this board is in agreement about that.

Here's some words to live by: Never assume common sense in anybody.  :D Still, we don't have an argument here. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to put words into the mouths of committee members when I have no proof that they've said them.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:10:43 PMThere is a dissonance between what we understand to be a general consensus and the criteria that I am agreeing with you the cmte must follow.

This seems to be the only thing upon which we disagree. I don't experience dissonance in this regard, because these aren't two ideas that I consider to be in tension with each other. You do. So be it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:40:13 PM
Last thing on what you think we disagree on.  There are different kinds of dissonance....emotional versus intellectual is one, and shades  of those.  When folks first saw Kenyon ranked #7 or something in the first two weeks last year many experienced initial dissonance.  Upon studying what happened, that lessened, but as non-Spock humans, lessening doesn't always equal total absence.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Oh, I certainly agree that intellectual and emotional dissonance are two separate things. I'm simply saying that I experience neither one in the context of 2017 Calvin soccer. ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:49:56 PM
Gosh, do we really have to wait until Friday for these games to begin?  I'm feeling some dissonance about that.

Mr. Sager, best of luck to you and your Vikings!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:55:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Oh, I certainly agree that intellectual and emotional dissonance are two separate things. I'm simply saying that I experience neither one in the context of 2017 Calvin soccer. ;)

Obviously not a Calvin booster, or a team concerned with playing Calvin at the moment  ;)

And on the alleged improved transparency issue, I can't see how CMU could possibly feel their fate was more transparent than the prior process.  Were they less surprised when they didn't get in as a result of the new process?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 07, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Going to throw a few things at you guys have trying to scan through five pages of updates today (I am paying attention for a lot of reasons: I am advocate and cover DIII on the whole, not sure certain sports; I am going to be calling all the the games in Greesboro).

First off, how the vRRO and other data is used in the final rankings is a little more interesting than Christian has stated. I don't know if it's because no one realizes this or maybe the way I am reading it described isn't as in depth as I will put it.

For the final regional rankings, the regional committees can only consider the vRRO of Week 3. That is true across the board in all sports. Just as in Week 1 they CANNOT consider any vRRO considering there hasn't been any rankings to get that data from, they can only consider the previous week as a RAC. They then rank and hand those rankings to the national committee (by the way, they tend to do these rankings in the morning of the final day with other versions should certain games turn out differently). The national committee then makes adjustments as they see fit - as they always do.

Here is where things get interesting. These final rankings do then result in another data set of vRRO. The national committee will then consider that new set of vRRO and rearrange if they need to. This is how I understand all committees do in all sports. The fourth set of vRRO is considered and is used by the national committee to make any final changes to the final rankings. Basically, they create a fourth week's rankings, get a final data set of the vRRO, and make their final adjustments accordingly.

Not sure if that helps anyone, but that is how the fourth set of vRRO is used and, no, a fifth set is not suddenly created. It simply brings everything to a close.

I should also point out, the RACs only advise the national committee. They are "advisory" committees. Ultimately, the national committee decides the rankings based on their advice, but the national committee's efforts to keep the rankings as universal as possible.

Finally, no selection of any team is made with the idea of bracketing or travel costs. None. Bracketing is not considered until the teams are set and usually after a bit of a break by the national committee to refocus. It makes for a nice talking point, an easy explanation, and a place to put blame, but in no committee is the selection of a team ever done with the idea of reducing flights, easing a bracketing problem, etc. I have talked to more committee chairs (including men's soccer who I know well) in the NCAA and to a person they emphasis this "practice" as many fans think occurs is anything from true.

We can talk about costs and how it affects bracketing until we are blue in the face. I welcome all of you to listen to the D3football.com podcasts and our efforts at D3hoops.com, and especially Hoopsville, as we close in on each postseason. I, personally, have spent countless hours educating myself in hopes of educating everyone else on how this works. There are still problems. Women's volleyball this season, men's lacrosse nearly every season come to mind. However, we are so far removed from the old days, as Gregory Sager and others would remember, where there were a lot of things to question including the "old boys network" in play.

Is it perfect? No. It is Division III. There is a $30m operating budget 75% of goes to all the championships conducted with football, basketball, and soccer not surprisingly taking up the largest costs to run. DIII gets 3.18% of the entire NCAA budget and that isn't going to change. Considering those limitations, we do end up with some very solid brackets in a lot of sports now.

Let's enjoy it.

PS - anyone is welcome to PM me if they want more details, but don't want to bore everyone on this thread. LOL
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 07, 2017, 09:09:20 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:37:13 PM
Okay I will be the first to do it! Here is the perfect bracket  ;)

Round of 32
North Park (given)
Westminister
Ogelthorpe
W&L
St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital
OWU
Calvin
Lynchburg
Dickinson
Trinity
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Tufts (given)
St. Joes
Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco
Drew
Brandeis
Bowdoin
Messiah
Buff St
Cortland St
Stevens
Oneonta St
CT College
Amherst
Springfield

Sweet 16
NP
W&L
St. Thomas
Kenyon
Chicago
Calvin
Lynchburg
Trinity
Tufts
Hopkins
Lycoming
Brandeis
Messiah
Cortland
Oneonta
Amherst

Elite 8
NP
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lynchburg
Tufts
Lycoming
Messiah
Amherst

Final 4
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lycoming
Amherst

Final
St. Thomas
Lycoming

Champion
Lycoming 2-2 (wins in PK's 5-4)

at first i also wanted lycoming in the final four and i don't know why i changed it tbh.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 07, 2017, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:27:23 PM
So they could publish that data as this site did but do it before the selections, the night before or that morning.

And based on what you are saying, teams STILL won't know if they are getting a Pool C because the new data will be considered region versus region.  I don't see the huge gain in terms of transparency if they are going to use the data for everything EXCEPT within region.

You are correct that the final RvR data for at-large consideration cannot be known precisely, but the new RvR definition doesn't allow for as big a change from what can be known.  By reducing the change that is possible, the chance for surprise is reduced.

For example, if from the third to the fourth ranking two teams drop out and, naturally, two new ones come in, a team's RvR could change dramatically if the RvR goes from being based on one ranking to being based on the other.  Let's say Team A had wins against Teams D and E who were in the third rankings.  And then in the final week Team A defeats Team D a second time in the conference playoff.  Then, when the fourth rankings come out Team D and E are replaced by Teams X and Y, who both defeated Team A during the regular season.  Team A's RvR based on the third ranking was an impressive 4-1-0.  But based on the fourth rankings they lose the two wins over Teams D and E (and don't pick up that 2nd win vs. Team D), and instead pick up the two loses vs. Teams X and Y, for a much less impressive RvR of 2-3-0.  That's the kind of swing that we can clearly agree could cost Team A an at-large berth.  Team A thought they were well-positioned for a berth and couldn't predict that both Team D and E would drop from the rankings, nor that two teams they lost to would be the ones to replace them.  They were surprised when they didn't hear their name called when the tournament field was announced. 

However, under the new RvR definition, Team A would have known that they would hold onto their 2 wins over Teams D and E and would have known they would pick up the second win vs. Team D as well.  They wouldn't have known they would be picking up the two loses to Teams X and Y.  Their RvR for at-large selections would end up being 5-3-0.  Having your RvR change from 4-1-0 to 5-3-0 is much less drastic and costly than going from 4-1-0 to 2-3-0.  The additional two losses could be the difference in being selected or not, but much less likely than losing the 2 (really 3) wins in addition to picking up the losses as under the  previous RvR definition.  Still dealing with some unknown, but less unknown.  Still not completely predictable, but more predictable.  Still could have surprise when the at-large selections are announced, but less chance of that.

This is what the new RvR definition was attempting to accomplish.

I just made up that example, because I was too lazy to look up the exact details of John Carroll's situation in 2014.  But it was something along those lines of going from a pretty good winning RvR to a losing RvR.  The change in the RvR data used for the regional rankings versus that used for the at-large selections is perhaps an unintended consequence of trying to avoid another large surprise like the John Carroll snub produced.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:55:55 PMObviously not a Calvin booster, or a team concerned with playing Calvin at the moment  ;)

Two of my nephews and one of my nieces, as well as several friends of mine, are Calvin alumni. I certainly don't have anything against Calvin, that's for sure.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:49:56 PM
Gosh, do we really have to wait until Friday for these games to begin?  I'm feeling some dissonance about that.

Mr. Sager, best of luck to you and your Vikings!

Tack så mycket, as our Swedes say!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on November 07, 2017, 09:55:37 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 07, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Going to throw a few things at you guys have trying to scan through five pages of updates today (I am paying attention for a lot of reasons: I am advocate and cover DIII on the whole, not sure certain sports; I am going to be calling all the the games in Greesboro).

First off, how the vRRO and other data is used in the final rankings is a little more interesting than Christian has stated. I don't know if it's because no one realizes this or maybe the way I am reading it described isn't as in depth as I will put it.

For the final regional rankings, the regional committees can only consider the vRRO of Week 3. That is true across the board in all sports. Just as in Week 1 they CANNOT consider any vRRO considering there hasn't been any rankings to get that data from, they can only consider the previous week as a RAC. They then rank and hand those rankings to the national committee (by the way, they tend to do these rankings in the morning of the final day with other versions should certain games turn out differently). The national committee then makes adjustments as they see fit - as they always do.

Here is where things get interesting. These final rankings do then result in another data set of vRRO. The national committee will then consider that new set of vRRO and rearrange if they need to. This is how I understand all committees do in all sports. The fourth set of vRRO is considered and is used by the national committee to make any final changes to the final rankings. Basically, they create a fourth week's rankings, get a final data set of the vRRO, and make their final adjustments accordingly.

Not sure if that helps anyone, but that is how the fourth set of vRRO is used and, no, a fifth set is not suddenly created. It simply brings everything to a close.

I should also point out, the RACs only advise the national committee. They are "advisory" committees. Ultimately, the national committee decides the rankings based on their advice, but the national committee's efforts to keep the rankings as universal as possible.

Finally, no selection of any team is made with the idea of bracketing or travel costs. None. Bracketing is not considered until the teams are set and usually after a bit of a break by the national committee to refocus. It makes for a nice talking point, an easy explanation, and a place to put blame, but in no committee is the selection of a team ever done with the idea of reducing flights, easing a bracketing problem, etc. I have talked to more committee chairs (including men's soccer who I know well) in the NCAA and to a person they emphasis this "practice" as many fans think occurs is anything from true.

We can talk about costs and how it affects bracketing until we are blue in the face. I welcome all of you to listen to the D3football.com podcasts and our efforts at D3hoops.com, and especially Hoopsville, as we close in on each postseason. I, personally, have spent countless hours educating myself in hopes of educating everyone else on how this works. There are still problems. Women's volleyball this season, men's lacrosse nearly every season come to mind. However, we are so far removed from the old days, as Gregory Sager and others would remember, where there were a lot of things to question including the "old boys network" in play.

Is it perfect? No. It is Division III. There is a $30m operating budget 75% of goes to all the championships conducted with football, basketball, and soccer not surprisingly taking up the largest costs to run. DIII gets 3.18% of the entire NCAA budget and that isn't going to change. Considering those limitations, we do end up with some very solid brackets in a lot of sports now.

Let's enjoy it.

PS - anyone is welcome to PM me if they want more details, but don't want to bore everyone on this thread. LOL

This strikes me as a knowledgeable and rationale explanation.  Thanks for sharing and debunking some of the unsubstantiated suggestions in previous posts.

Also, I can only hope Calvin cruises to the national title given all the love and support that has been invested in recent posts on their behalf...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:03:22 PM
If your conclusion was that the discussion was based on Calvin's behalf you kind of missed the point.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 10:05:10 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:55:55 PMObviously not a Calvin booster, or a team concerned with playing Calvin at the moment  ;)

Two of my nephews and one of my nieces, as well as several friends of mine, are Calvin alumni. I certainly don't have anything against Calvin, that's for sure.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 07, 2017, 08:49:56 PM
Gosh, do we really have to wait until Friday for these games to begin?  I'm feeling some dissonance about that.

Mr. Sager, best of luck to you and your Vikings!

Tack så mycket, as our Swedes say!

You didn't overlook that what you said was a theoretical impossibility was in fact reality, right?  Calvin, Week 3, last year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 07, 2017, 10:42:03 PM
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 08, 2017, 07:44:03 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 07, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Here is where things get interesting. These final rankings do then result in another data set of vRRO. The national committee will then consider that new set of vRRO and rearrange if they need to. This is how I understand all committees do in all sports. The fourth set of vRRO is considered and is used by the national committee to make any final changes to the final rankings. Basically, they create a fourth week's rankings, get a final data set of the vRRO, and make their final adjustments accordingly.

Not sure if that helps anyone, but that is how the fourth set of vRRO is used and, no, a fifth set is not suddenly created. It simply brings everything to a close.

I know you know your stuff, so I am sure this is true.  And thanks for sharing your insight and knowledge.

So, than in essence their is a "fifth ranking", or call it a "modified fourth ranking" ("final changes" as you call it), or say it's merely the "at-large regional queue".  It's just semantics, I guess, except that the Pre-Championships Manual makes no mention of a fifth ranking or a modified fourth ranking, probably better to stick with the later description: "at-large regional queue".  Or I guess the initial fourth ranking could be considered a pre-fourth ranking, so that the final order is the official fourth ranking. 

Not sure why the Pre-Championship Manual couldn't spell the process out a bit more, a bit better.  If there is a sequence of two rankings/orderings of teams done Sunday afternoon/evening, than why not just say that in the manual.  And why not clearly say which ranking(s) the RvR data is based on for each of the four five rankings.

This leads to some questions. First, can these "final changes" involve teams moving in and out of the ranking/queue? Or is it only a matter of rearranging the same set of teams that were in the initial fourth ranking?

And, what are the rankings that they release after the tournament fields are announced?  The initial fourth rankings or the modified fourth rankings/fifth rankings/at-large qeue?

Anyway, Paul Newman, seems it does work the way you want it to.  That's fine with me, I just don't know what's so hard about spelling out the process in the Pre-Championships Manual.  And I'll concede that Ryan Harmanis may have been trying to relay to me the possibility of a "fifth" ranking or a reordering and I just couldn't be convinced enough to put that in writing on the website because nothing in the Pre-Championship Manual alluded to that extra step.  Of course the Manual doesn't explain that only one team for each region is on the board at one time.  It's seems to have become well known that it works like this, but again why not simply state that that's how the process works in the Pre-Championships Manual.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 08, 2017, 08:07:42 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 07, 2017, 09:09:20 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 07, 2017, 02:37:13 PM
Okay I will be the first to do it! Here is the perfect bracket  ;)

Round of 32
North Park (given)
Westminister
Ogelthorpe
W&L
St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital
OWU
Calvin
Lynchburg
Dickinson
Trinity
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Tufts (given)
St. Joes
Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco
Drew
Brandeis
Bowdoin
Messiah
Buff St
Cortland St
Stevens
Oneonta St
CT College
Amherst
Springfield

Sweet 16
NP
W&L
St. Thomas
Kenyon
Chicago
Calvin
Lynchburg
Trinity
Tufts
Hopkins
Lycoming
Brandeis
Messiah
Cortland
Oneonta
Amherst

Elite 8
NP
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lynchburg
Tufts
Lycoming
Messiah
Amherst

Final 4
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lycoming
Amherst

Final
St. Thomas
Lycoming

Champion
Lycoming 2-2 (wins in PK's 5-4)

at first i also wanted lycoming in the final four and i don't know why i changed it tbh.

Here is mine!

Round of 32
NP
Platteville
NCW
MW
St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital
JC
Calvin
Lynchburg
Emory
Trinity
MHB
Tufts
St. Joe's
Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco
F&M
Brandeis
Newark
Messiah
Hobart
Cortland
Midd
Oneonta
UR
Amherst
Endicott

Sweet 16
NP
MW
Loras
Kenyon
Chicago
Calvin
Emory
Trinity
St. Joe's
Rowan
Lyco
Brandeis
Messiah
Midd
Oneonta
Amherst

Elite 8
NP
Kenyon
Chicago
Trinity
Rowan
Brandeis
Messiah
Oneonta

Final 4
Kenyon
Trinity
Brandeis
Messiah

Final
Trinity
Messiah

Champion
Messiah 2-1 OT
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 08, 2017, 09:01:42 AM
                                                                  North Park                North Park       
Westmin. (Mo.) vs Wis.-Platteville                  Wisc-Platteville
                                                                                                                               W&L
N.C. Wesleyan vs Oglethorpe                        Ogelthorpe
Mary Washington vs Washington & Lee          W&L                         W&L     
                                                                                                                                                                 W&L
Wis.-Superior vs St. Thomas (Minn.)             St. Thomas                St. Thomas             
Cal Lutheran vs Loras                                  Loras
                                                                                                                               St. Thomas
Medaille vs Otterbein                                   Otterbein
Transylvania vs Kenyon                                Kenyon                      Kenyon


Chicago vs Lake Forest                                Chicago                      Chicago
Dominican vs. Capital                                  Dominican
                                                                                                                                Chicago
John Carroll vs OWU                                    John Carroll
Calvin vs Thomas Moore                              Calvin                         Calvin
                                                                                                                                                                 Lynchburg
Lynchburg vs. Penn St                                 Lynchburg                   Lynchburg
Dickinson vs. Emory                                    Dickinson

                                                                                                                                 Lynchburg
Trinity vs. Texas Tyler                                  Trinity                         Trinity
Mary Hardin vs. Willamentie                         Mary Hardin


                                                                 Tufts                           Tufts
St. Joe's vs Mitchell                                     St. Joes
                                                                                                                                   Rowan
Rowan vs Cabrini                                         Rowan                        Rowan
Johns Hopkins vs DeSales                            John Hopkins
                                                                                                                                                                  Rowan
Lycoming vs Lehman                                    Lycoming
F&M vs Drew                                               Drew                          Drew
                                                                                                                                   Drew
Brandeis vs West. Conn                                Brandeis
RNU vs Bowdoin                                          Rutgers-Newark          RNU



Messiah vs Castleton                                    Messiah                     Messiah
Buff State vs Hobart                                     Hobart
                                                                                                                                   Messiah
SUNY Cortland vs Mt. St. Mary                      Cortland                     Cortland
Middlebury vs Stevens                                  Middlebury
                                                                                                                                                                   Oneonta
SUNY Oneonta v WPI                                    Oneonta                    Oneonta
Rochester vs. Conn College                           Rochester
                                                                                                                                    Oneonta
Amherst vs Salem St                                    Amherst                     Amherst
Springfield vs Endicott                                  Springfield



SEMI-FINAL                       FINAL                  CHAMPION
W&L vs. Lynchburg             Lynchburg
Oneonta vs Rowan              Rowan                 Rowan
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 08, 2017, 09:48:14 AM
Clarification on Calvin, and then perhaps I can avoid mentioning that word for the rest of the tournament (although that seems unlikely I suppose).

I was only using Calvin as an example, and as an example of a team actually could be regionally ranked last or not at all and end up being a favorite against a #1 or #2 seed in a quadrant.  [Mr. Sager, that's what I meant by looking at the Week 3 regional rankings of 2016.]  I don't feel bad for Calvin, or, for that matter, their potential opponents this year (although maybe a touch for JCU).  As my wife asks when watching any game, "who hasn't won in a long time?," and then she cheers for the team that has never "made it" to whatever (like the Final Four in this case).  Calvin has had more than their fill, and they've knocked my own team out in the Elite 8.  They've had a bunch of recent Final Fours.  I was also annoyed in 2014 when they allowed a late PK to OWU to tie things up and then failed in PKs.  That's not to say my team would have beaten Calvin that year (although of course I think so), but their not advancing set up a match that was not a good one for my team.  I'll be perfectly happy if Thomas More knocks off Calvin in the 1st round.  Give other teams a chance.  Which is I how I feel as a rival fan of OWU as they found a way to make the last two tournaments against very improbable statistical odds.  Let someone else have a chance once in a while.  Which is how I'll feel if Tufts marches on to yet another title.  Give a Rowan or Trinity or Kenyon or F&M a turn after the last handful of years of knocking on the door.

I will say I do have a deep respect for Calvin as a program and especially the coach.  I don't pretend to fully understand the faith-based mission (of Calvin or similar schools), and honestly, I even find it a little alienating.  That said, I can't think of any coach I'd rather my kid play for than Coach Souders.  And I say that even though his insistence on gushing about every team and program after games I find a little over the top and irritating, but he proved that he is genuine when even after losing to Tufts he kept trying to re-engage Shapiro to re-congratulate Shapiro and Tufts after a very painful double OT defeat.  I'll never forget when trailing at the half after being really outplayed by OWU at OWU's famed Roy Rike Field in 2015 he joined his team out on the field in the huddle just before the 2nd half kickoff.  Not sure why that sticks so much in my mind but I've never seen that.  Anyway, while I'm saying there are things about Calvin and Souder's style that don't necessarily resonate for me personally, my impression is that he is a phenomenal leader and teacher of young men.  A coach can't do much better than that....and then of course he wins too.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 08, 2017, 09:51:16 AM
I can't say I disagree with the perspective of Rutgers-Newark, but funny to see some shade thrown (http://rutgersnewarkathletics.com/news/2017/11/6/mens-soccer-njac-champs-heading-to-mass-ncaa-1st-2nd-round.aspx) in their press release about the tournament this weekend.

"The Rutgers University-Newark men's soccer team - the 2017 New Jersey Athletic Conference Champions and owners of the most wins in the entire nation (20) - will surprisingly be on the road for the first weekend of the NCAA Division III Men's Soccer Championship, it was announced Monday by the national office."
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on November 08, 2017, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 08, 2017, 09:51:16 AM
I can't say I disagree with the perspective of Rutgers-Newark, but funny to see some shade thrown (http://rutgersnewarkathletics.com/news/2017/11/6/mens-soccer-njac-champs-heading-to-mass-ncaa-1st-2nd-round.aspx) in their press release about the tournament this weekend.

"The Rutgers University-Newark men's soccer team - the 2017 New Jersey Athletic Conference Champions and owners of the most wins in the entire nation (20) - will surprisingly be on the road for the first weekend of the NCAA Division III Men's Soccer Championship, it was announced Monday by the national office."

Blooter,

sure, they have the most wins in the country, but they've also played more games than just about anyone.  I did a quick scan on the national rankings and I only saw one other team (Carthage) that had played 22 games.  Some of the other top teams like Calvin, Drew, and Trinity might have matched or surpassed 20 wins if they had the opportunity to play 22 games.

That being said, yeah I think if I were a RUN fan I would be a little annoyed too that they have to go on the road. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 08, 2017, 10:16:49 AM
I'd be a little annoyed also, but when playing 22 games in the NJAC and surrounding area, ending up with only 4 against RROs is pretty sad. You will get at least 2 just from NJAC Conference and NJAC Conference Tournament play. That really doesn't say much about their schedule though of course that can be hard to predict. But still, out of 11 non-conf, non NJAC tourney games, you think they'd have stumbled on at least one or two more.

If you are 11-0 at home on the season though, you probably really want those early round home games. And then you see W&L hosting and it's got to be a little more salt on the wound.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 08, 2017, 10:54:20 AM
Ned and jknezek, I agree with you both that seeing the number of wins as being a perhaps misguided sticking point, given 22 regular-season games. Definitely more than the max of 19-20 that I've anecdotally seen around the national rankings. My point was more related to -- and, to be sure, there is no criteria re: hosting sites that says anything about NSCAA rankings being a determinant factor in seeding -- the fact that RUN is #9, Brandeis is #19, and WConn. and Bowdoin are unranked. But, as we've covered in other forums, geography can often trump "seeds," and NSCAA rankings do not constitute official "seeds" by any means, so putting a given pod in MA (as being somewhat central between NJ, CT, and ME) is understandable.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 08, 2017, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 08, 2017, 10:52:09 AM
Ned and jknezek, I agree with you both that seeing the number of wins as being a perhaps misguided sticking point, given 22 regular-season games. Definitely more than the max of 19-20 that I've anecdotally seen around the national rankings. My point was more related to -- and, to be sure, there is no criteria re: hosting sites that says anything about NSCAA rankings being a determinant factor in seeding -- the fact that RUN is #9, Brandeis is #19, and WConn. and Bowdoin are unranked. But, as we've covered in other forums, geography can often trump "seeds," so putting a given pod in MA (as being somewhat central between NJ, CT, and ME) is understandable.

Oh I didn't care about the NSCAA, I more looked at Regional Rankings. The two teams with the lowest percentage of games against RROs in the South Atlantic Region are both on the road in pods, despite being higher in the Regional Rankings than W&L. That's got to stick in your craw. Now I think Ogelthorpe has at least some excuse for their light RRO schedule, sitting on somewhat of a geographic island, but RUN really doesn't. Personally I think Ogelthorpe didn't apply to host, or they definitely got shafted for geography when it wasn't necessary. RUN... well, that area is rich with good teams. Sometimes you just get unlucky and I feel like they probably fall in that category this year with other teams in the PA/NJ area getting pods that in many years might have gone to them.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 08, 2017, 10:59:47 AM
I'd be a little miffed as a RUN fan too, but in fairness, the last two years Montclair and Rowan were all set to host through to the Final Four.  Neither could get by Tufts at home in the 2nd round.  Which, come to think of it, goes back to the point about ability of a team versus the seeding of a team.  At least in hindsight one might say MSU and Rowan were a tad unlucky to draw Tufts despite at least one of those years Tufts being viewed as borderline to get a bid at all.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 08, 2017, 11:03:08 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 08, 2017, 09:51:16 AM
I can't say I disagree with the perspective of Rutgers-Newark, but funny to see some shade thrown (http://rutgersnewarkathletics.com/news/2017/11/6/mens-soccer-njac-champs-heading-to-mass-ncaa-1st-2nd-round.aspx) in their press release about the tournament this weekend.

"The Rutgers University-Newark men's soccer team - the 2017 New Jersey Athletic Conference Champions and owners of the most wins in the entire nation (20) - will surprisingly be on the road for the first weekend of the NCAA Division III Men's Soccer Championship, it was announced Monday by the national office."

I have to LOL at having the balls to complain about travel when you're no better than fourth in your regional rankings.   
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 08, 2017, 11:11:41 AM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on November 08, 2017, 07:44:03 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 07, 2017, 09:04:00 PM
Here is where things get interesting. These final rankings do then result in another data set of vRRO. The national committee will then consider that new set of vRRO and rearrange if they need to. This is how I understand all committees do in all sports. The fourth set of vRRO is considered and is used by the national committee to make any final changes to the final rankings. Basically, they create a fourth week's rankings, get a final data set of the vRRO, and make their final adjustments accordingly.

Not sure if that helps anyone, but that is how the fourth set of vRRO is used and, no, a fifth set is not suddenly created. It simply brings everything to a close.

I know you know your stuff, so I am sure this is true.  And thanks for sharing your insight and knowledge.

So, than in essence their is a "fifth ranking", or call it a "modified fourth ranking" ("final changes" as you call it), or say it's merely the "at-large regional queue".  It's just semantics, I guess, except that the Pre-Championships Manual makes no mention of a fifth ranking or a modified fourth ranking, probably better to stick with the later description: "at-large regional queue".  Or I guess the initial fourth ranking could be considered a pre-fourth ranking, so that the final order is the official fourth ranking. 

Not sure why the Pre-Championship Manual couldn't spell the process out a bit more, a bit better.  If there is a sequence of two rankings/orderings of teams done Sunday afternoon/evening, than why not just say that in the manual.  And why not clearly say which ranking(s) the RvR data is based on for each of the four five rankings.

This leads to some questions. First, can these "final changes" involve teams moving in and out of the ranking/queue? Or is it only a matter of rearranging the same set of teams that were in the initial fourth ranking?

And, what are the rankings that they release after the tournament fields are announced?  The initial fourth rankings or the modified fourth rankings/fifth rankings/at-large qeue?

Anyway, Paul Newman, seems it does work the way you want it to.  That's fine with me, I just don't know what's so hard about spelling out the process in the Pre-Championships Manual.  And I'll concede that Ryan Harmanis may have been trying to relay to me the possibility of a "fifth" ranking or a reordering and I just couldn't be convinced enough to put that in writing on the website because nothing in the Pre-Championship Manual alluded to that extra step.  Of course the Manual doesn't explain that only one team for each region is on the board at one time.  It's seems to have become well known that it works like this, but again why not simply state that that's how the process works in the Pre-Championships Manual.

The thing to keep in mind is that there are no final rankings until the committee commits to them. So, there aren't any fifth rankings. They take the fourth week rankings from the RACs, make adjustments, and then to be fair to the updated information (vRRO) adjust a last time. It is just an extra step in the process. Yeah, there are a lot of things we wish the Pre-Championship Handbooks would spell out, but a lot of that is to allow the committees some latitude with a lot of the process. You write it out too detailed, you box the committees in to something that may not be wise.

I learn more talking to committee members than I do reading the handbook.

Also, keep in mind the committees are probably doing the work while games are taking place. That isn't always consistent, but I have found some commonalities. Let's use basketball as an example. I know the RACs in both genders are talking in the morning and doing their votes - again with different results based on variables for later results (Rankings 1, Rankings 2, Rankings 3). The national committee then works from the rankings the RACs sent per the outcome/scenarios that took place. On the men's side, they have been working for a few weeks on how they will pick and start the process while games are underway. Occasionally, stopping if they have to wait for games to finish to make a final decision on things. The men have actually had their picks done a short time after all games are complete. The women have waited a bit longer, but still start work in the afternoon.

And yes, teams could absolutely move in or out of the rankings at the very end when the national committee makes the final adjustments. The RACs actually vote on more than just the number posted for their regions. They have to because I know in both the men and women that someone not "ranked" got to the "table" near the end. The RACs may vote on double the number of teams they actually rank. So the national committee sees more teams ranked than are officially posted and can absolutely move a team in or out accordingly - thus possibly dramatically adjusting the vRRO.

The manual may not address specifically how the selections work, but it isn't a secret. I am not sure why it isn't described, that's up to the committees and the NCAA. One team from each region is at the "table" to be considered. The best team from the crop is picked and a team from that respective region replaces the team selected. Then the process starts all over again. No region can have multiple teams at the table at the same time.

Now, a committee may do some prep work and state who they know will be selected and plan for it ahead of time. They still go through the process, but to save time we all know teams that are slam-dunk at-large picks especially if there are upsets in conference tournaments. This allows the committees to work in detail on the harder selections later in the process.

I plan to talk to the men's committee chair in the near future. I will try and "glean" (for those who know what that means LOL) more info. I know individuals on both committees, so I can get more in the coming weeks as well.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 08, 2017, 11:39:24 AM
                                                                  North Park                Wisc-Platteville       
Westmin. (Mo.) vs Wis.-Platteville                  Wisc-Platteville
                                                                                                                               W&L
N.C. Wesleyan vs Oglethorpe                        Ogelthorpe
Mary Washington vs Washington & Lee          W&L                         W&L     
                                                                                                                                                                 St.Thomas
Wis.-Superior vs St. Thomas (Minn.)             St. Thomas                St. Thomas             
Cal Lutheran vs Loras                                  Loras
                                                                                                                               St. Thomas
Medaille vs Otterbein                                   Otterbein
Transylvania vs Kenyon                                Kenyon                      Kenyon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago vs Lake Forest                                Chicago                      Chicago
Dominican vs. Capital                                  Capital
                                                                                                                                Chicago
John Carroll vs OWU                                    John Carroll
Calvin vs Thomas Moore                              Calvin                         Calvin
                                                                                                                                                                 Chicago
Lynchburg vs. Penn St                                 Lynchburg                   Emory
Dickinson vs. Emory                                    Emory

                                                                                                                                 Trinity
Trinity vs. Texas Tyler                                  Trinity                         Trinity
Mary Hardin vs. Willamentie                         Mary Hardin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                 Tufts                           Tufts
St. Joe's vs Mitchell                                     St. Joes
                                                                                                                                   Tufts
Rowan vs Cabrini                                         Rowan                        Rowan
Johns Hopkins vs DeSales                            John Hopkins
                                                                                                                                                                  Lycoming
Lycoming vs Lehman                                    Lycoming
F&M vs Drew                                               Drew                          Lycoming
                                                                                                                                   Lycoming
Brandeis vs West. Conn                                Brandeis
RNU vs Bowdoin                                           Bowdoin                    Brandeis

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Messiah vs Castleton                                    Messiah                     Messiah
Buff State vs Hobart                                     Hobart
                                                                                                                                   Middlebury
SUNY Cortland vs Mt. St. Mary                      Cortland                     Middlebury
Middlebury vs Stevens                                  Middlebury
                                                                                                                                                                   Oneonta
SUNY Oneonta v WPI                                    Oneonta                    Oneonta
Rochester vs. Conn College                           Rochester
                                                                                                                                    Oneonta
Amherst vs Salem St                                    Amherst                     Amherst
Springfield vs Endicott                                  Endicott

SEMI-FINAL                       FINAL                  CHAMPION
St.Thomas vs. Chicago           Chicago
Oneonta vs Lycoming              Lycoming                 Chicago
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on November 08, 2017, 09:16:55 PM
http://gocardinalsports.com/news/2017/11/8/longtime-plattsburgh-state-head-mens-soccer-coach-chris-waterbury-announces-retirement.aspx

Waterbury retires.

This man was real class all round!!
A big shame that Cardinals did not dance this year.

He built a great program over 33 years and is retiring just shy of 500 wins.

Don't make coaches like this anymore.

He was a credit to Plattsburgh, SUNYAC, D3 and College soccer overall.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 14, 2017, 09:10:42 AM


Here is mine!

Round of 32

NP
Platteville

NCW
MW

St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital
JC
Calvin
Lynchburg
Emory
Trinity
MHB
Tufts
St. Joe's

Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco

F&M
Brandeis
Newark
Messiah
Hobart
Cortland

Midd
Oneonta
UR
Amherst

Endicott

Sweet 16

NP
MW
Loras
Kenyon

Chicago
Calvin
Emory

Trinity
St. Joe's
Rowan
Lyco

Brandeis
Messiah

Midd
Oneonta

Amherst

Elite 8
NP
Kenyon
Chicago
Trinity
Rowan

Brandeis
Messiah
Oneonta

Final 4
Kenyon
Trinity

Brandeis
Messiah

Final
Trinity
Messiah

Champion
Messiah 2-1 OT
[/quote]

Only half of my Elite 8 teams have survived  ::)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 14, 2017, 05:22:42 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 14, 2017, 09:10:42 AM


Here is mine!

Round of 32

NP
Platteville

NCW
MW

St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital
JC
Calvin
Lynchburg
Emory
Trinity
MHB
Tufts
St. Joe's

Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco

F&M
Brandeis
Newark
Messiah
Hobart
Cortland

Midd
Oneonta
UR
Amherst

Endicott

Sweet 16

NP
MW
Loras
Kenyon

Chicago
Calvin
Emory

Trinity
St. Joe's
Rowan
Lyco

Brandeis
Messiah

Midd
Oneonta

Amherst

Elite 8
NP
Kenyon
Chicago
Trinity
Rowan

Brandeis
Messiah
Oneonta

Final 4
Kenyon
Trinity

Brandeis
Messiah

Final
Trinity
Messiah

Champion
Messiah 2-1 OT

Only half of my Elite 8 teams have survived  ::)

For one..don't bet against Tufts.  They find a way to win.  Gotta have them in sweet 16 at least. I suspect they will also take out Hopkins this weekend to get to Elite 8 but that will be a good game.  I took a shot at Kenyon too..should have known better but had to take one underdog.   Hard to go against Calvin as well.   I only picked final 4 so can't fully compare results..

Kenyon - OUT
Messiah
Calvin
Tufts

Kenyon out so I got 3 left until this weekend.  Brandeis has a chance but I wouldn't count on it.   I think the winner of Tufts/Hopkins will move on to final 4.   Calvin and Chicago should be good..I think Calvin wins that one.  Chicago hopes to get over the hump this year but playing Calvin in sweet 16 does not help their chances (ask Messiah from last year..tough loss in 2OT with a minute or so to go before PKs..ugh)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 15, 2017, 08:46:04 AM
Still have 6/8 and 3/4 left but my champion is gone  :'(

Round of 32
North Park (given)
Westminister
Ogelthorpe
W&L
St. Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago
Capital

OWU
Calvin
Lynchburg

Dickinson
Trinity
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Tufts (given)
St. Joes

Rowan
Hopkins
Lyco
Drew
Brandeis

Bowdoin
Messiah
Buff St
Cortland St
Stevens
Oneonta St

CT College
Amherst
Springfield


Sweet 16
NP
W&L
St. Thomas

Kenyon
Chicago
Calvin

Lynchburg
Trinity

Tufts
Hopkins

Lycoming
Brandeis
Messiah

Cortland
Oneonta

Amherst

Elite 8
NP
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lynchburg
Tufts
Lycoming
Messiah
Amherst

Final 4
St. Thomas
Calvin
Lycoming
Amherst

Final
St. Thomas
Lycoming

Champion
Lycoming 2-2 (wins in PK's 5-4)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 15, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
Late to the party, but I have Messiah over Calvin....
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 15, 2017, 01:41:36 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 15, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
Late to the party, but I have Messiah over Calvin....

We have missed you  ;D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on November 15, 2017, 11:43:05 PM
I still have 5/8, 3/4, 2/2...

Round of 32:
North Park
Wis-Platteville
Oglethorpe
Wash & Lee
St Thomas
Loras
Otterbein
Kenyon
Chicago

Dominican
John Carroll
Calvin
Lynchburg
Emory
Trinity
MH Baylor
Tufts

Rowan
Johns Hopkins
Lycoming
Drew
Brandeis
Rutgers – Newark
Messiah

Buff State
SUNY - Cortland
Middlebury
SUNY – Oneonta
Rochester
Amherst
Springfield


SWEET 16:
North Park
Wash & Lee
St Thomas
Otterbein
Chicago
Calvin

Lynchburg
Trinity

Tufts
Rowan
Drew
Rutgers – Newark
Messiah
SUNY – Cortland
SUNUY – Oneonta

Amherst

ELITE 8:
North Park
ST Thomas
Calvin
Trinity
Rowan
Drew
Messiah
SUNY – Oneonta

FINAL 4:
North Park
Calvin
Rowan
Messiah

FINAL
Calvin
Messiah

CHAMPION:
Messiah
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: wingtips2 on November 16, 2017, 12:24:23 AM
Loving seeing the NJAC shut out of the Sweet 16.
Also loved seeing the three 'other' NESCAC schools get bounced early - just wish the other two could have joined them.

Predictions for the weekend:
Calvin over Chicago
MHB over Emory
Calvin over MHB

W&L over NP
Otterbein over StT
Otterbein over W&L

JHU over Tufts
Drew over Brandeis
JHU over Drew

Messiah over Stevens
Rochester over Amherst
Messiah over Rochester

Stay warm this weekend!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: franklyspeaking on November 16, 2017, 08:03:22 AM
Why such hate for the NJAC and NESCAC?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 16, 2017, 10:49:04 AM
Shooter's Sweet 16 Predictions
NP over W&L 2-1
St. Thomas over Otterbein 3-1
Calvin over Chicago 2-2 (PK's 4-3)
Emory over MHB 1-0
Tufts over Hopkins 2-1 OT
Brandeis over Drew 4-2
Messiah over Stevens 3-0
Amherst over UR 2-1 2OT
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 16, 2017, 11:34:41 AM
Predictions:
North Park over W&L 2-0
St. Thomas over Otterbein 2-1
Chicago over Calvin 1-0 OT
Emory over MHB 3-1
Tufts over JHU 3-0
Brandeis over Drew 2-1
Messiah over Stevens 1-0
Rochester over Amherst 2-1 2OT
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 16, 2017, 11:35:47 AM
Which Sweet 16 matchup have the most goals in it?

Just a total guess but it seems like Washington & Lee at North Park could be based on prior results...

Which Sweet 16 matchup(s) will have 0 goals in 110 minutes?

My guess would be either Tufts v Hopkins or Brandeis v Drew..

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 16, 2017, 11:38:25 AM
Quote from: franklyspeaking on November 16, 2017, 08:03:22 AM
Why such hate for the NJAC and NESCAC?

In the NESCAC's case, when you are on top of the mountain everyone wants to knock you down. For the NJAC I think it's some of the above but more the rough and tumble style reputation. These conferences tend to get the benefit of the doubt of being good, and tend to get more than a handful of at-larges. So there is probably more than a little schadenfreude when they don't live up to it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 16, 2017, 11:39:46 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2017, 11:35:47 AM
Which Sweet 16 matchup have the most goals in it?

My vote goes for Rochester-Amherst. Neither team has been particularly exceptional defensively, but both can score goals (even if their results this past weekend weren't barnburners).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 16, 2017, 01:16:34 PM
MAF Predictions
NP over W&L 1-1 (PKs 5-4)
St. Thomas over Otterbein 3-2
Calvin over Chicago 2-1 OT
MHB over Emory 2-1
Tufts over Hopkins 1-0 OT
Brandeis over Drew 2-1
Messiah over Stevens 1-0 2OT
Amherst over UR 2-0
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 2xfaux on November 16, 2017, 02:35:22 PM
I am not sure who will win these games but I am pretty sure this is the only sports board where someone said schadenfreude.  Great word and I think you are absolutely right. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 16, 2017, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: 2xfaux on November 16, 2017, 02:35:22 PM
I am not sure who will win these games but I am pretty sure this is the only sports board where someone said schadenfreude.  Great word and I think you are absolutely right.
Glad to entertain. Now I hope my boys can defy all these predictions and win at least one more game, tying their best ever finish.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 16, 2017, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: 2xfaux on November 16, 2017, 02:35:22 PM
I am not sure who will win these games but I am pretty sure this is the only sports board where someone said schadenfreude.  Great word and I think you are absolutely right.

Good thing you didn't bet on that. I used that word in the CCIW football room on Monday:

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 13, 2017, 06:49:14 PMYep. I echo your welcome to robertthebruce50, but he needs to know that the older non-Augie posters who were around during Augie's heyday aren't the least bit sorry to see Augie get some of the ol' what-goes-around-comes-around, and may actually be enjoying a touch of schadenfreude at Augustana's gridiron ineptitude. I like to think that every smile on the face of a North Park supporter at the end of the game in Rock Island two weeks ago erased the cleat-mark scars from the chest of a random former North Park defensive player that he'd gotten in an encounter with Bob Reade's Wing-T offense.

Quote from: jknezek on November 16, 2017, 03:12:00 PM
Glad to entertain. Now I hope my boys can defy all these predictions and win at least one more game, tying their best ever finish.

I don't take any of these predictions seriously, jknezek, and I doubt that you do, either. NPU and W&L are total strangers to each other, and it's hard to know what to expect. I did watch the overtimes of the Oglethorpe @ W&L match last weekend (man, is that a breathtaking view from your soccer stadium), but I'm not foolish enough to think that it gave me any real sort of a primer on the Generals. As for NPU ... well, nobody here other than me is an expert on the Vikings, no matter how much of a snippet of one match they happened to see, and nobody's going to take me as anything but a highly-biased partisan, anyway, so why should I bother?

You likely want your boys to win just as badly as I want NPU to prevail, so let's just mutually hope that NPU and W&L play an entertaining, clean, and injury-free match.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 16, 2017, 03:40:42 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 16, 2017, 03:33:00 PM
I don't take any of these predictions seriously, jknezek, and I doubt that you do, either. NPU and W&L are total strangers to each other, and it's hard to know what to expect. I did watch the overtimes of the Oglethorpe @ W&L match last weekend (man, is that a breathtaking view from your soccer stadium), but I'm not foolish enough to think that it gave me any real sort of a primer on the Generals. As for NPU ... well, nobody here other than me is an expert on the Vikings, no matter how much of a snippet of one match they happened to see, and nobody's going to take me as anything but a highly-biased partisan, anyway, so why should I bother?

You likely want your boys to win just as badly as I want NPU to prevail, so let's just mutually hope that NPU and W&L play an entertaining, clean, and injury-free match.

Yes. The soccer facility came out really nice with the new upperclass housing and the mountains in the background. W&L has spent 20+ years doing much needed improvements to all the athletic facilities and as near as I can tell they have all been revamped or completely built new. As much as a college is ever done with building, the athletic facilities are probably done for a while with the opening last year of a brand new swimming and diving facility.

The two overtimes just looked like 2 tired teams banging the ball back and forth and trying to get lucky. It was not very good soccer. I did not get to watch the whole game and picked it up just after the last goal was scored. I know Ogelthorpe scored on 2 PKs and I think once from the run of play and that W&L had the lead 3 times before getting dragged back each time. Doesn't really sound like the best game.

Considering the pair of losses to Lynchburg and the hideous loss to Bridgewater, I'm pleased with how well W&L has done, though there is no doubt they got a break in hosting that pod. I have no idea how well they will do against North Park, but I just don't have the feeling about this W&L team that I did about the team last year or the 2000 team (to date myself quite badly!). I hope they can win, and I certainly hope for a good game, but I really have no expectations. They have achieved what I had hoped for when the bracket first came out.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 16, 2017, 04:10:09 PM

lastguy Predictions
W&L over NP 2-1
St. Thomas over Otterbein 2-1
Calvin over Chicago 3-1
Emory over MHB 2-0
Tufts over Hopkins 2-0
Drew over Brandeis  1-1 PKs
Messiah over Stevens 3-1
Amherst over UR 2-1
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 16, 2017, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 16, 2017, 11:39:46 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 16, 2017, 11:35:47 AM
Which Sweet 16 matchup have the most goals in it?

My vote goes for Rochester-Amherst. Neither team has been particularly exceptional defensively, but both can score goals (even if their results this past weekend weren't barnburners).


You could be right but i think the opposite will happen. Amherst will play it cautious for about 70 minutes and in the mean time stifle any UR attacking hopes. Basically. Amherst will dictate the flow of play as they usually do to a point of ugliness that UR has not seen all year playing those skilled / attacking UAA sides. However, Messiah's field might give UR more room to maneuver and spread Amherst out a bit. I am just picturing Amherst sitting very compact and holding their shape as to allow UR nothing. Both teams will be giving the ball away all night and we will have a nice Ping-Pong battle. In turn the flow of the game will be miserable and ugly and just be a massive battle in the air. This is where your O/U  5 YC might be a good call.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 20, 2017, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 16, 2017, 11:34:41 AM
Predictions:
North Park over W&L 2-0
St. Thomas over Otterbein 2-1
Chicago over Calvin 1-0 OT
Emory over MHB 3-1
Tufts over JHU 3-0
Brandeis over Drew 2-1
Messiah over Stevens 1-0
Rochester over Amherst 2-1 2OT

Went 8/8 but only got 1 score correct (Rochester vs. Amherst). Wasn't able to make it out to the Tufts location games due to a family commitment that came up. What a slate of Final Four games we have though. And the possibility of an all UAA final?! Has there ever been two teams from the same conference in the National Championship? My guess would be that if there was one, it would be from the NESCAC or MAC. Busy at work so am not able to dig too deep into the research right now. But if anyone knows off the top of their head, kudos to you!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:47:51 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the 1990 D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.

Edited to add the year.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 20, 2017, 07:49:33 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

Came within a whisker last year with Tufts and Brandeis.  I know Medford and Waltham are not the same town, but Boston is so tiny that I believe Tufts and Brandeis are closer together than Chicago and No. Park.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 20, 2017, 08:43:16 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

Well, Chicago isn't a "town" -- it's a city, and the third largest municipality in the United States. ;) That said, I will assume you meant "town" colloquially, although I do know (as Buck O. pointed out) BC and BU have been in the same Frozen 4 in D1 hockey before, although I echo your sentiment that it is incredibly rare.

Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 20, 2017, 07:49:33 PM
Came within a whisker last year with Tufts and Brandeis.  I know Medford and Waltham are not the same town, but Boston is so tiny that I believe Tufts and Brandeis are closer together than Chicago and No. Park.

For my own curiosity, and fully realizing Waltham and Medford are different cities that are separated by two municipalities (Belmont and Arlington), I ran my own search. The straight-line distance between Brandeis and Tufts is 6.388 miles closer than Chicago and NPU, but the shortest drive from Brandeis to Tufts (according to Google Maps) is only 1.8 miles less than Chicago to North Park. Just goes to show how awful the roads are in Greater Boston! :P
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.

That's a good try, Buck O., but both attempts hit the post. Boston College isn't in Boston; it's in Chestnut Hill, a suburb of Boston, while Boston University is in the city itself. And, while it is true that Yale and Quinnipiac are closer to each other than NPU is to the U of C, they are nevertheless located in different municipalities; Yale is in New Haven proper, while Quinnipiac is in the New Haven suburb of Hamden.

Thus, the question still stands: Are NPU and the U of C the first two NCAA schools from the same municipality to appear in the same Final Four?

Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 20, 2017, 07:49:33 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

Came within a whisker last year with Tufts and Brandeis.  I know Medford and Waltham are not the same town, but Boston is so tiny that I believe Tufts and Brandeis are closer together than Chicago and No. Park.

Again, the question wasn't about distance.

Quote from: blooter442 on November 20, 2017, 08:43:16 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

Well, Chicago isn't a "town" -- it's a city, and the third largest municipality in the United States. ;)

Of course it's a town -- a toddlin' town. Or are you calling Frank Sinatra a liar?

(That's never a safe course of action, even though he's been dead for almost two decades.)

Quote from: blooter442 on November 20, 2017, 08:43:16 PM
That said, I will assume you meant "town" colloquially, although I do know (as Buck O. pointed out) BC and BU have been in the same Frozen 4 in D1 hockey before, although I echo your sentiment that it is incredibly rare.

Well, yeah. I think that we can safely put a "Duh!" there about my using the word "town" colloquially. Nevertheless, both North Park and the U of C call the same municipality home, which was the point here before you smokescreened us with the "town" stuff. ;) I'm just curious as to whether or not this particular quirk has ever taken place in an NCAA Final Four.

Quote from: blooter442 on November 20, 2017, 08:43:16 PMFor my own curiosity, and fully realizing Waltham and Medford are different cities that are separated by two municipalities (Belmont and Arlington), I ran my own search. The straight-line distance between Brandeis and Tufts is 6.388 miles closer than Chicago and NPU, but the shortest drive from Brandeis to Tufts (according to Google Maps) is only 1.8 miles less than Chicago to North Park. Just goes to show how awful the roads are in Greater Boston! :P

That's what you get for letting cows seeking their pasture design your cities and villages.

Chicago's grid is a marvel of expediency by comparison, but I'm sure that the advantage of traveling in straight lines is more than wiped out by comparative traffic density. According to Google Maps, you can get from Tufts to Brandeis (or vice-versa) in 25 minutes. You're going to need more than a half-hour to get from NPU to the U of C, or from the U of C to NPU -- significantly more if it's rush hour -- regardless of whether you take the Kennedy and Dan Ryan expressways or Lake Shore Drive. (Google Maps is totally unreliable as to Chicago drive times.)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:24:38 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?

I don't have an opinion for a just this year award, but for a 4 year period in aggregate I would think there aren't many better candidates that Josh Ocel of Brandeis. For a 3 year period Kenyon's Henry Myers would have to be in the mix.

As for the Final Four, the group strikes me as one of the most even since I've been following (past 6-7 years). I would not be surprised at all by any of the 4 winning. I'm tempted to pick Chicago because of the relief for them of clearing the psychological hurdle of getting there.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 08:51:27 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Of course it's a town -- a toddlin' town. Or are you calling Frank Sinatra a liar?

(That's never a safe course of action, even though he's been dead for almost two decades.)

For someone who seems to value technicalities so much, I find it funny that you would cite Sinatra. Obviously this was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but still funny nonetheless.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Well, yeah. I think that we can safely put a "Duh!" there about my using the word "town" colloquially. Nevertheless, both North Park and the U of C call the same municipality home, which was the point here before you smokescreened us with the "town" stuff. ;) I'm just curious as to whether or not this particular quirk has ever taken place in an NCAA Final Four.

Yes, the intention was clear. I should have said "know" rather than "will assume."

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
That's what you get for letting cows seeking their pasture design your cities and villages.

True. I have lamented this many times.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?

Lopez for me. 19 goals on the year (4 in UAA play) so far for a team with one of the most difficult schedules in the country (.633 SoS). Scored in both the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 matches, as well as the 1st Round. Clearly a big-game player who can produce despite very much being a "marked man."
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AM
Mr. Sager,

Congrats on the incredible season for North Park and the first trip to the Final Four for the Vikings.  Wish my team was there instead or that my team would have at least gotten a crack at the Vikings.  Was this kind of season anticipated?  What are the ingredients that made this season so special, while acknowledging that North Park has enjoyed a long history of success in men's soccer?

Also, could you tell us more about North Park, the institution, as especially us Easterners are likely far less familiar with the school than the other participants?  How did the connection with Sweden get started and what has been key to the continued connection over many years?  What are the school's calling cards academically and socially?

As regards the soccer team, is the average team age older than most D3 teams?  Do some of the players from Sweden come over in their mid-20s or generally at 18/19?

Lastly, given the discussion about the uniqueness of two teams within the same city limits, do North Park and U Chicago have any kind of significant sports rivalry that precedes the high stakes battles this season in men's soccer?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on November 21, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?

Lopez for me. 19 goals on the year (4 in UAA play) so far for a team with one of the most difficult schedules in the country (.633 SoS). Scored in both the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 matches, as well as the 1st Round. Clearly a big-game player who can produce despite very much being a "marked man."

Co-sign. He had a hat trick against Emory in the Elite 8, but two were wiped off by a foul and an offside.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 21, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?

Lopez for me. 19 goals on the year (4 in UAA play) so far for a team with one of the most difficult schedules in the country (.633 SoS). Scored in both the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 matches, as well as the 1st Round. Clearly a big-game player who can produce despite very much being a "marked man."

Co-sign. He had a hat trick against Emory in the Elite 8, but two were wiped off by a foul and an offside.

I agree, as well. I know D3soccer.com does Forward, Midfielder and Defender of the Year.

Forward: Max Lopez, Chicago
Midfielder: Josh Ocel, Brandeis
Defender: Trent Vegter, Calvin
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 10:48:07 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 21, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?

Lopez for me. 19 goals on the year (4 in UAA play) so far for a team with one of the most difficult schedules in the country (.633 SoS). Scored in both the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 matches, as well as the 1st Round. Clearly a big-game player who can produce despite very much being a "marked man."

Co-sign. He had a hat trick against Emory in the Elite 8, but two were wiped off by a foul and an offside.

I agree, as well. I know D3soccer.com does Forward, Midfielder and Defender of the Year.

Forward: Max Lopez, Chicago
Midfielder: Josh Ocel, Brandeis
Defender: Trent Vegter, Calvin

Excellent.  Done.  And saved D3soccer.com a ton of work ad heartache  ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

He is my #3 for DPOY. #2 is Kyle Thomas from Lycoming.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

Coleman definitely deserves AA status, and given Tufts' overall defensive record I'm sure Coleman will garner some votes for DPOY.  That said, he is not the overall dynamic phenomenon that Vegter is.  Vegter is in a different category.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 11:32:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

Coleman definitely deserves AA status, and given Tufts' overall defensive record I'm sure Coleman will garner some votes for DPOY.  That said, he is not the overall dynamic phenomenon that Vegter is.  Vegter is in a different category.

Completely agree with Paul. Coleman had a breakout year and as much as I would love for a NESCAC player to win the award, Vegter might be the best D3 defender I've seen. Him and Lanahan are the best two in my memory. As Paul said, Coleman will get some form of AA recognition, as he should, but I just don't see him winning DPOY.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 11:32:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

Coleman definitely deserves AA status, and given Tufts' overall defensive record I'm sure Coleman will garner some votes for DPOY.  That said, he is not the overall dynamic phenomenon that Vegter is.  Vegter is in a different category.

Completely agree with Paul. Coleman had a breakout year and as much as I would love for a NESCAC player to win the award, Vegter might be the best D3 defender I've seen. Him and Lanahan are the best two in my memory. As Paul said, Coleman will get some form of AA recognition, as he should, but I just don't see him winning DPOY.

Admittedly, I don't know Vegter. Looking at results, he led a defense which allowed 10 goals in 23 games. Coleman anchored a defense that allowed 2 goals in 21 games while playing a much tougher schedule than Vegter. It all depends on your perspective. In looking at Vegter's offensive stats it certainly would appear he is a dynamic player out of the back (4g, 10a). That being said, I think Coleman will get some significant consideration.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 11:32:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

Coleman definitely deserves AA status, and given Tufts' overall defensive record I'm sure Coleman will garner some votes for DPOY.  That said, he is not the overall dynamic phenomenon that Vegter is.  Vegter is in a different category.

Completely agree with Paul. Coleman had a breakout year and as much as I would love for a NESCAC player to win the award, Vegter might be the best D3 defender I've seen. Him and Lanahan are the best two in my memory. As Paul said, Coleman will get some form of AA recognition, as he should, but I just don't see him winning DPOY.

Admittedly, I don't know Vegter. Looking at results, he led a defense which allowed 10 goals in 23 games. Coleman anchored a defense that allowed 2 goals in 21 games while playing a much tougher schedule than Vegter. It all depends on your perspective. In looking at Vegter's offensive stats it certainly would appear he is a dynamic player out of the back (4g, 10a). That being said, I think Coleman will get some significant consideration.

You could be right in terms of the award.  Athlete to athlete there is no comparison and that's not a knock on Coleman who was the definition of superb, steady competence.  Vegter is a freak athlete and one of the top talents (at any position) in D3 over the past handful of years....and, amazingly, he's got another year left.  Seems like he and Ocel have been playing forever.

How about this for Tufts and NESCAC fans.....most underrated or under the radar best player....speaking of the sparkling Tufts defense, how about Sterling Weatherbie? 

Btw, does anybody know who scored the so-called Giant Slayer goal?  I hear about it from time to time on the site and was just wondering.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 21, 2017, 12:54:31 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
Btw, does anybody know who scored the so-called Giant Slayer goal?  I hear about it from time to time on the site and was just wondering.

Tufts v. Messiah 2014?  Jason Kayne.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on November 21, 2017, 01:59:41 PM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 11:32:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

Coleman definitely deserves AA status, and given Tufts' overall defensive record I'm sure Coleman will garner some votes for DPOY.  That said, he is not the overall dynamic phenomenon that Vegter is.  Vegter is in a different category.

Completely agree with Paul. Coleman had a breakout year and as much as I would love for a NESCAC player to win the award, Vegter might be the best D3 defender I've seen. Him and Lanahan are the best two in my memory. As Paul said, Coleman will get some form of AA recognition, as he should, but I just don't see him winning DPOY.

Admittedly, I don't know Vegter. Looking at results, he led a defense which allowed 10 goals in 23 games. Coleman anchored a defense that allowed 2 goals in 21 games while playing a much tougher schedule than Vegter. It all depends on your perspective. In looking at Vegter's offensive stats it certainly would appear he is a dynamic player out of the back (4g, 10a). That being said, I think Coleman will get some significant consideration.

I was at the Chicago-Calvin game this past weekend and had mentioned that Chicago, after scoring early, was consistently making Calvin build from the back. This was the first time I had seen Vegter in person and have to say he was an absolute stud.  I guess you can question how many goals one team gives up vs another, but I can see how this kid had 10 A and 4G.  As Calvin would spread the pitch Vegter would be putting left footed lasers 50 yds down field and no more than 10 ft off the ground right onto the boots of his wings.  It really was an amazing display. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEFutbol90 on November 21, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
Speaking of AA Teams I know it is a long ways away in terms of announcements, but I was wondering what comes into play other than the normal statistics? Not to beat a broken drum, but a player like Brett Mattos (St.Joes, Maine) comes in at 20 goals on 68 shots and Remillard (WNE) with 23 at 85 shots or Alonso Fragoso (Marian) with 23 goals on 80 shots, but 2-3 less games than most at the top. My point about shots to goals was a bit more compelling a few weeks ago as Mattos compiled 19 shots in his last 4 games(Post-Season), but prior to that he was at 18 goals on just 49 shots.


How much does SOS, conference, statistics comparisons like shots/goals, etc. play a part in these and does small school have as big as an effect as it does on gaining other national or even regional attention. A situation similar to this could be Denali Sexton (Colby Sawyer:2015) who had 18 goals/13 assists in 2015 which ranked well into the upper echelon of D3 soccer stats that year, albeit with little team success that year. Was left off any AA teams but made NSCAA 3rd team. Something I imagine is in Mattos and one or two other Monks near futures.

I love the integrity and significance of the All-American Teams, but I can't help but think how many special players, seasons, accomplishments go unnoticed.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 02:59:15 PM
Quote from: NEFutbol90 on November 21, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
Speaking of AA Teams I know it is a long ways away in terms of announcements, but I was wondering what comes into play other than the normal statistics? Not to beat a broken drum, but a player like Brett Mattos (St.Joes, Maine) comes in at 20 goals on 68 shots and Remillard (WNE) with 23 at 85 shots or Alonso Fragoso (Marian) with 23 goals on 80 shots, but 2-3 less games than most at the top. My point about shots to goals was a bit more compelling a few weeks ago as Mattos compiled 19 shots in his last 4 games(Post-Season), but prior to that he was at 18 goals on just 49 shots.


How much does SOS, conference, statistics comparisons like shots/goals, etc. play a part in these and does small school have as big as an effect as it does on gaining other national or even regional attention. A situation similar to this could be Denali Sexton (Colby Sawyer:2015) who had 18 goals/13 assists in 2015 which ranked well into the upper echelon of D3 soccer stats that year, albeit with little team success that year. Was left off any AA teams but made NSCAA 3rd team. Something I imagine is in Mattos and one or two other Monks near futures.

I love the integrity and significance of the All-American Teams, but I can't help but think how many special players, seasons, accomplishments go unnoticed.

I can definitely understand how it would be frustrating to put up incredible stats on a team that doesn't play the most difficult schedule. That said, it can work the other way where a guy plays in a tough league, puts up pretty good stats, but misses out to someone who has inflated numbers. (Not saying one omission is less worse than the other, but just outlining the point.)

Thinking of 2012, when Kamali Webson of Roger Williams was named a 2nd team All-American (NSCAA) for a team that conceded 1.01 goals per game. I watched him quite a bit that year, and I even played against him in a few small-sided games. Very good imposing player.

Was he a good center back? Absolutely. Was he an All-American caliber center back. Don't think so. Sure, he had 6 goals and 1 assist from center back, which is impressive, but I can think of a few other center backs who played much more difficult schedules (and conceded less goals) that I would have had as an AA selection before him.

Again, this isn't to say it's "just" for a guy racking up double-figures in goals on a .500 SoS team to be left off, just that it can very much go both ways. I myself would have Remillard on an AA team, and, as it pertains to the Monks, I'd have Mullen in goal on an AA team. The guy gave up one goal on 53 shots, and made 10 saves against Tufts. Very impressive.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 06:35:47 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AM
Mr. Sager,

Congrats on the incredible season for North Park and the first trip to the Final Four for the Vikings.  Wish my team was there instead or that my team would have at least gotten a crack at the Vikings.

Thanks, PN. And I'm happy to answer some of your questions.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMWas this kind of season anticipated?

I'd say yes and no. No, in the sense that the CCIW coaches picked NPU to finish third in the league in the coaches poll. That was possibly in part because the leading scorer for the Vikings, Gianfranco DeCarne, had opted to leave school in order to try to land a spot overseas in the Italian leagues, but mostly because Carthage appeared to be on the cusp of national relevance and the league's mentors were still favoring fading Wheaton on sheer momentum and force of habit. But it's also true that the Vikings hadn't won the CCIW regular-season title in a decade (although they've finished in the top three almost every season since), or the CCIW tourney title since 2010, and North Park hadn't been to the national tournament since 2014. There may have been a sense that NPU was yesterday's papers as far as the CCIW was concerned.

But the Vikings did return three players who made All-CCIW in 2016 (not including CB Gustav Leander, who broke his leg in August and didn't see action for NPU this season until the CCIW tournament final against Carthage two weeks ago). Also, CB Ricky Pimentel, who had made the All-CCIW first team as a freshman in 2015 but then had gone on to play for D1 Illinois-Chicago last season (he actually started in three matches for the Flames), had decided to transfer back to NPU, so there was plenty of hope coming into this season that the Vikings could exceed those expectations. That was also true in part because Carthage's star CB had signed with Queens Park Rangers (he currently plays on their under-23 team), and Wheaton was in obvious decline. Regardless, in the preseason when I talked to head coach John Born, he seemed unusually optimistic about his own team. He told me that this was going to be the deepest side he'd ever fielded -- but what he didn't tell me was that he'd brought in several new Scandinavians with very high skill levels who had the potential to take NPU over the top and into the terra incognita that awaited beyond the first weekend of the D3 tourney.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMWhat are the ingredients that made this season so special, while acknowledging that North Park has enjoyed a long history of success in men's soccer?

Depth and balance. The depth isn't as noticeable this deep into the tourney, since everybody shortens their rotation, but it has played a key role in NPU's 20-match non-losing streak and 10-match winning streak. The Vikings began the season with three starters and a key reserve out with injuries, and they never missed a beat. The balance is top-notch as well, not just in terms of the team not having any apparent weaknesses, but also in the blend of players that John Born has shaped into a team. NPU has always had a mixture of American and Swedish players (now American, Swedish, and Norwegian players) during John Born's tenure, with some of the American players in turn coming from Chicagoland's Polish and Hispanic immigrant communities, and there's been varying results with that over the years in terms of team chemistry. To generalize, the Swedes usually provided the skill and the Americans provided the heart. Now, he's got Scandinavian players who are as passionate about North Park soccer as are their American teammates, and Americans who have highly accomplished abilities and soccer technique. And the team is seamless and tightly-knit; there are no cliques, either ethnic or otherwise. They definitely have an all-for-one, one-for-all spirit.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMAlso, could you tell us more about North Park, the institution, as especially us Easterners are likely far less familiar with the school than the other participants?  How did the connection with Sweden get started and what has been key to the continued connection over many years?  What are the school's calling cards academically and socially?

North Park University is the only four-year school of the Evangelical Covenant Church, a small evangelical denomination of about 235,000 worshipers that is now very multi-ethnic but which originally sprang out of the late nineteenth-century revival movement in Sweden and among Swedish immigrants to the United States. The denominational seminary, North Park Theological Seminary, is located on the NPU campus. North Park has about 2,000 undergraduates, with a resident-to-commuter ratio of about 40:60, and 1,000 graduate students. It's primarily a small liberal-arts college in the classic D3 tradition, but the graduate schools give NPU a legitimate university status as well.

To quote from the NPU website, "The University's academic programs and learning environment are informed by three institutional values. Our community is: Christian – We nurture faith, balancing commitment and freedom; City-centered – We engage Chicago as a dynamic place of learning and service; Intercultural – We embrace and value all people, celebrate the global cultural tapestry, and support the reconciling mandate of the Christian gospel."

When the school moved from Minneapolis to its present location on the banks of the North Branch of the Chicago River in 1894, the surrounding area was strictly rural, characterized by dirt roads and small vegetable farms owned by Swedish immigrants. It soon was swallowed up by the nearby city of Chicago as it expanded north, and it now sits at the border of two distinct neighborhoods; North Park, a mostly-white bedroom community for Chicago's professional class, and Albany Park, a first-landing neighborhood for immigrants that is a bewildering mosaic of humanity. Within a ten-minute walk of the NPU campus you will encounter Nigerian, Assyrian, Romanian, and Puerto Rican churches; a mosque; a synagogue; two Arab sweets shops; innumerable Korean mom-and-pop stores (NPU is within Chicago's Koreatown); Mexican taquerias, Salvadoran pupuserias, and Guatemalan eateries; community centers for Chicago's Cambodian and Ecuadorian immigrant populations; and Ethiopian, Thai, Chinese, Swedish, Persian, Brazilian restaurants, among others. The U.S. Census Bureau has identified North Park's zip code as the most diverse zip code between the two coasts.

It's the kind of neighborhood that really brings to the fore NPU's oft-stated claim that the biggest and best classroom that the school has to offer is the city in which it's located. And with Chicago's world-famous el only a five-minute walk from campus (the Brown Line, to be specific), the city is right at the feet of North Park students. It's a pretty exciting environment to attend college.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMHow did the connection with Sweden get started and what has been key to the continued connection over many years?

Because of the school's heritage and religious affiliation, for generations it largely had a student body made up of Swedish-Americans. Everywhere you looked there were blonde kids named Johnson, Anderson, Carlson, Peterson, Erickson, etc., with the occasional Bergstrom or Lundquist or Holmgren thrown in for variety. That's largely changed in recent years, but the school has always sought to maintain strong ties to the motherland. There aren't more than a half-dozen colleges and universities in the U.S. that still offer Swedish as a major (even other Swedish-American colleges such as Augustana and Gustavus Adolphus only offer the more generic Scandinavian Studies major), but North Park is one of them. There has been an exchange program with NPU's sister school in the southern Swedish city of Jönköping since the 1970s, and NPU's Center for Scandinavian Studies has worked with the admissions department to recruit students from Sweden and Norway for almost as long. The irony is that I doubt most of North Park's Scandinavian students come over because of the whole heritage thing; it's the city of Chicago itself, the school's international business program, and the endless possibilities for internships that really draw them.

Since even before men's soccer transitioned from a club sport to a varsity program in 1981 there were Swedes on the soccer team. Some of North Park's best players in the era before John Born were Swedes, such as four-time All-CCIW first-teamer Magnus Ramstrom in the early 1990s. But there weren't any intentional efforts undertaken to recruit Swedish players before Born was hired in 1999. He realized immediately that North Park was in an ideal situation to import players from that soccer-crazed country, and set about making recruiting contacts over there. The upgrade in the team's skill level once the program began bringing in specifically-recruited Swedes was immediately apparent, and in the mid-2000s Born was able to parlay that upgrade in tandem with a great crop of American players to break Wheaton's perennial stranglehold on CCIW soccer and forge a legitimate rivalry with Wheaton that remains white-hot to this day. And, of course, as the Swedes attain both academic and athletic success at NPU and return home singing the praises of the school and the program -- and of Chicago, a city that's still overlooked by Europeans, who tend to think of American cities in terms of NYC and LA alone -- it's only helped make recruiting in Sweden even easier. A key to this is that one of NPU's Swedish stars, former All-American Kris Grahn, has settled in Chicago, married an American, and has become John Born's associate head coach and right-hand man. He's not there strictly to recruit and coach the Scandinavians, but his presence certainly helps in that respect.

A big shift in the past two or three years is that there is now a very strong Norwegian element in the program as well. The CCIW's Player of the Year (Matias Warp), the CCIW's Newcomer of the Year (Peder Olsen), and the second-team All-CCIW goalkeeper (Mattias Stulen) are all North Park players from Norway. NPU has eight Swedes and five Norwegians on this season's roster. While I knew all about Swedish soccer, I had no idea until a couple of years ago just how strong Norwegian soccer is as well. Like their Swedish cousins, Norwegian children start kicking soccer balls as soon as they learn how to walk. They've fit perfectly into the mix in the NPU program, too.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMWhat are the school's calling cards academically and socially?

The old joke is that North Park produces "teachers, preachers, and nurses". There aren't a lot of captains of industry or highly-influential politicians and professionals who've emerged from the alumni ranks, which has definitely kept NPU's endowment a modest one. But the world needs educators and health professionals, too, and NPU's education and nursing departments are considered to be top-notch within the Chicagoland area. It also has a really solid music school, and the business programs on both the undergrad and graduate levels are improving as well, as the school learns how to take better advantage of the amazing resource of being located in a world-class economic powerhouse of a city. NPU has chosen in particular to focus upon educating non-profit business leadership as its calling card in its business school.

Socially, it's an interesting place. Lots of Covenant kids from all across the country, lots of Chicagoland suburban kids, a very large international-student community, and a lot of young people from the city itself and the inner-ring working-class suburbs who are the first people in their families to attend college. It's a very diverse campus; less than half of the student population consists of white middle-class Americans. North Park is an avowedly Christian school, but it's not heavy-handed about it; there are no religious requirements for admission, chapels are not mandatory, Christian-based course requirements are comparatively modest, and nobody blinks an eye over things like evolution being taught in biology classes. The Christian aspect of the school is strongly reflected in the push to get students to perform community service of some sort as a part of their educational process, and to recognize the dignity and worth of people from other backgrounds as a Gospel-based value. NPU is a dry campus, and it has no fraternities or sororities.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMAs regards the soccer team, is the average team age older than most D3 teams?  Do some of the players from Sweden come over in their mid-20s or generally at 18/19?

The average age is probably older than most D3 teams, but not by a tremendous amount. The Scandinavian players tend to be a year or three out of high school, although some of them do come over at 18. The edge in experience and physical maturity does help, although it varies from year to year with each particular crop of Swedes and Norwegians.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 09:51:12 AMLastly, given the discussion about the uniqueness of two teams within the same city limits, do North Park and U Chicago have any kind of significant sports rivalry that precedes the high stakes battles this season in men's soccer?

No, they really don't. North Park's rival is Wheaton, although it's a one-sided rivalry in every sport but men's soccer; North Parkers despise Wheaton, and Wheaties are barely aware that NPU even exists, unless they're soccer fans, in which case they're very aware that North Park exists. Chicago's stated rival is its closest UAA neighbor, Washington (MO) down in St. Louis, but, honestly, I question just how much juice there is in that rivalry. The undergraduate population of the U of C appears to be blissfully ignorant, for the most part, of the fact that the school even has sports. The stereotype that U of C students essentially live in Regenstein Library has more than a grain of truth to it. There's a popular t-shirt on campus that bears the slogan, "University of Chicago: Where Fun Goes To Die". That's the U of C in a nutshell.

North Park and Chicago play each other in lots of sports, and have for years. But there's no real rivalry there, any more than North Park has a rivalry with other closely-located non-CCIW schools such as Dominican, Concordia (IL), Lake Forest, or Illinois Tech.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on November 21, 2017, 07:13:49 PM
Great stuff, Gregory Sager! +k for sure (adding to your massive total).  Thank you for the extensive overview of North Park.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on November 21, 2017, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.

That's a good try, Buck O., but both attempts hit the post. Boston College isn't in Boston; it's in Chestnut Hill, a suburb of Boston, while Boston University is in the city itself.

I'd like to check with the VAR, because I think my first attempt hit the post ... and went in!  Chestnut Hill is not a suburb of Boston.  Part of it is in Newton, part is in Brookline, and part is in Boston.

My recollection, from when I used to drive around that area more often than I do now, is that the Boston-Newton town line more or less bisects BC's main campus, so that the eastern half is in Boston and the western half is in Newton.  And Google Maps seems to back that up.  (Type "Boston" or "Newton" into Google Maps and see where the boundary line falls.)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on November 21, 2017, 07:41:42 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 21, 2017, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.

That's a good try, Buck O., but both attempts hit the post. Boston College isn't in Boston; it's in Chestnut Hill, a suburb of Boston, while Boston University is in the city itself.

I'd like to check with the VAR, because I think my first attempt hit the post ... and went in!  Chestnut Hill is not a suburb of Boston.  Part of it is in Newton, part is in Brookline, and part is in Boston.

My recollection, from when I used to drive around that area more often than I do now, is that the Boston-Newton town line more or less bisects BC's main campus, so that the eastern half is in Boston and the western half is in Newton.  And Google Maps seems to back that up.  (Type "Boston" or "Newton" into Google Maps and see where the boundary line falls.)

One more:  UCLA and USC seem to play in the water polo championship games most years (four out of the last six).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PM
Mr. Sager...wow!  You did your school proud.  An impressive and persuasive description/endorsement of NPU.

One further question, if you know.  All of the immigrant communities you cited as living in North Park and creating that impressively diverse zip code make sense intuitively, to me at least, except for Sweden.  What were Swedes in the 1890s fleeing?  I think of Sweden as a wealthy and very attractive country to live in, and in some ways perhaps preferable to our grand USA.  Maybe that was not the case in the 1890s as I know virtually nothing about the history of Sweden, or perhaps the affiliation with that specific religious faith was the key.

Did you know former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme was a Kenyon grad, overlapping with yours truly (re:  the real Paul Newman)?  He wrote a senior thesis about the United Auto Workers union.  He was assassinated in Sweden in 1986...."His murder by an unapprehended assailant on a street in Stockholm on 28 February 1986 was the first of its kind in modern Swedish history, and the first assassination of a national leader since Gustav III. It had a great impact across Scandinavia.[1] Local convict and addict Christer Pettersson was convicted of the murder in the first instance court tingsrätten, but was acquitted on appeal to the Svea hovrätt." (Wikipedia)

RE:  U Chicago and is reputation for brutal misery.....all the more impressive that such talented soccer players can manage the rigors of the school with the commitment necessary to compete at a high level.  I think of Swarthmore and Hopkins as perhaps similar for really smart kids with perhaps a bit of a masochistic streak.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 21, 2017, 07:54:37 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 21, 2017, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.

That's a good try, Buck O., but both attempts hit the post. Boston College isn't in Boston; it's in Chestnut Hill, a suburb of Boston, while Boston University is in the city itself.

I'd like to check with the VAR, because I think my first attempt hit the post ... and went in!  Chestnut Hill is not a suburb of Boston.  Part of it is in Newton, part is in Brookline, and part is in Boston.

My recollection, from when I used to drive around that area more often than I do now, is that the Boston-Newton town line more or less bisects BC's main campus, so that the eastern half is in Boston and the western half is in Newton.  And Google Maps seems to back that up.  (Type "Boston" or "Newton" into Google Maps and see where the boundary line falls.)

I very much support your cause Buck, but I grew up in Newton, and we always considered BC to be in Newton.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 21, 2017, 07:41:42 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 21, 2017, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 20, 2017, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 20, 2017, 07:21:25 PM
I'm more interested in the fact that this Final Four includes two schools that are located in the same town. I strongly doubt that any NCAA championship in any sport has ever had that happen in a Final Four. I certainly can't think of one.

BC and BU were in the D-1 Frozen Four (along with Wisconsin and Colgate).  Also, Yale and Quinnipiac, who met in the 2013 final, are only eight miles apart, which is closer than NP is to UC.

That's a good try, Buck O., but both attempts hit the post. Boston College isn't in Boston; it's in Chestnut Hill, a suburb of Boston, while Boston University is in the city itself.

I'd like to check with the VAR, because I think my first attempt hit the post ... and went in!  Chestnut Hill is not a suburb of Boston.  Part of it is in Newton, part is in Brookline, and part is in Boston.

My recollection, from when I used to drive around that area more often than I do now, is that the Boston-Newton town line more or less bisects BC's main campus, so that the eastern half is in Boston and the western half is in Newton.  And Google Maps seems to back that up.  (Type "Boston" or "Newton" into Google Maps and see where the boundary line falls.)

One more:  UCLA and USC seem to play in the water polo championship games most years (four out of the last six).

That one seems to be pretty cut-and-dried. Thanks for the research, Buck O.

Water polo. I had a feeling that if it was going to be anything, it'd be an obscure sport with a small participatory base.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 12:11:45 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on November 21, 2017, 07:13:49 PM
Great stuff, Gregory Sager! +k for sure (adding to your massive total).  Thank you for the extensive overview of North Park.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PM
Mr. Sager...wow!  You did your school proud.  An impressive and persuasive description/endorsement of NPU.

Thanks, both of you!

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PMOne further question, if you know.  All of the immigrant communities you cited as living in North Park and creating that impressively diverse zip code make sense intuitively, to me at least, except for Sweden.

Swedes don't really live there anymore, especially in working-class Albany Park south of campus. There are plenty of Swedish-Americans in the North Park neighborhood north of the campus, to be sure, but no Swedish immigrants. Sweden basically stopped losing its sons and daughters to the New World after World War One.

The children who attend the elementary school that borders NPU to the south speak 37 different languages in their various homes. Swedish isn't one of the 37.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PMWhat were Swedes in the 1890s fleeing?  I think of Sweden as a wealthy and very attractive country to live in, and in some ways perhaps preferable to our grand USA.  Maybe that was not the case in the 1890s as I know virtually nothing about the history of Sweden, or perhaps the affiliation with that specific religious faith was the key.

Sweden was still a poor country back in the late 1800s, although not Ethiopian-famine poor, and the modern democracy that now characterizes Sweden was only beginning to emerge from the oligarchy that had traditionally run the nation since it became a constitutional monarchy during the Napoleonic era. It was also a primarily agrarian country that had a burgeoning population and a limited amount of arable land, with a relatively short growing season (Sweden's pretty far north, as the main areas that sent immigrants to the U.S. were from the same latitude as Juneau, AK, the Canadian semi-province of Labrador, and Siberia's Kamchatka Peninsula). Once word started trickling back via letters home from the earliest immigrants to the U.S. that there was abundant land to be found over here that the Americans were practically giving away, the trickle began to turn into a flood. And once major Swedish immigrant settlements began to arise in big cities such as Chicago, Minneapolis, and Seattle, as well as such smaller cities as Jamestown, NY, Worcester, MA, and Rockford, IL, where laborers and skilled tradesmen could find good-paying work easily through the immigrant community, the prospect of moving to America became even more attractive. Sweden did have a state church (and continued to have one until 2000), and like all countries that had state churches it was at least inconvenient and uncomfortable to be a religious dissenter, although open persecution never really existed. So that was a contributing factor as well, although the main reasons behind Swedish immigration during the peak period (roughly 1870-1910) were economic.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PMDid you know former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme was a Kenyon grad, overlapping with yours truly (re:  the real Paul Newman)?  He wrote a senior thesis about the United Auto Workers union.  He was assassinated in Sweden in 1986...."His murder by an unapprehended assailant on a street in Stockholm on 28 February 1986 was the first of its kind in modern Swedish history, and the first assassination of a national leader since Gustav III. It had a great impact across Scandinavia.[1] Local convict and addict Christer Pettersson was convicted of the murder in the first instance court tingsrätten, but was acquitted on appeal to the Svea hovrätt." (Wikipedia)

I didn't know that Palme was a Kenyon grad, although it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that he wrote his senior thesis about the UAW. His tenure as PM in Sweden was kind of a tense time for Swedish/American relations, which I saw firsthand at North Park. Several Swedes were pretty aggressive on campus in terms of pointing fingers at us Americans and telling us how rotten and corrupt we all were, and explaining to us in a very condescending fashion how we ought to run our country. That was a long time ago, though, and Sweden is a very different -- and far less homogenous -- country now than it used to be. The vast majority of the Swedes I've met over the years have been very polite and mild-mannered, which leads me to believe that the Palmeist period was kind of an aberration that brought out the militant side of certain college-age Swedes.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PMRE:  U Chicago and is reputation for brutal misery.....all the more impressive that such talented soccer players can manage the rigors of the school with the commitment necessary to compete at a high level.  I think of Swarthmore and Hopkins as perhaps similar for really smart kids with perhaps a bit of a masochistic streak.

One thing's for sure at the U of C -- you play sports there for your own satisfaction and for the sake of your teammates, not because there's any sort of campus glory in it. I've met several Maroons and ex-Maroons over the years, and there's a refreshing lack of ego about them with regard to their athletic accomplishments. I suspect that toiling in anonymity at sports on a campus where excellence is measured in brainpower rather than musclepower gives you that healthy perspective about yourself as a student-athlete.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 12:11:45 AM
One thing's for sure at the U of C -- you play sports there for your own satisfaction and for the sake of your teammates, not because there's any sort of campus glory in it. I've met several Maroons and ex-Maroons over the years, and there's a refreshing lack of ego about them with regard to their athletic accomplishments. I suspect that toiling in anonymity at sports on a campus where excellence is measured in brainpower rather than musclepower gives you that healthy perspective about yourself as a student-athlete.

RE:  U Chicago students not caring a lick about the soccer teams or sports in general (or even having much awareness that there are sports teams).  While Chicago may be at the extreme end in this regard, I think the lack of general campus interest applies at many of these schools and perhaps with D3 overall other than the oft-mentioned exceptions like Messiah, OWU, etc where relatively large attendance is the norm.  My daughter played soccer in high school but she never cared to observe a single men's soccer match at Rochester in her 4 years.  She stopped by a women's match once for 15 minutes because a high school teammate/friend was there playing for a visiting school.

Beyond those with an immediate connection to players on teams and former players and parents, the reach of interest is pretty narrow.  It's a big deal to me as a former parent (although I'm often wondering how long that will last as my narcissistic attachment and over-identification dissipate more and more over time), and the tournament especially as it is happening is huge (with some natural drop in interest once "my team" exits).  I don't sense that D1 soccer is that different, and I barely follow D1 soccer at all.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on November 22, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 07:51:37 PM
Mr. Sager...wow!  You did your school proud.  An impressive and persuasive description/endorsement of NPU.

One further question, if you know.  All of the immigrant communities you cited as living in North Park and creating that impressively diverse zip code make sense intuitively, to me at least, except for Sweden.  What were Swedes in the 1890s fleeing?  I think of Sweden as a wealthy and very attractive country to live in, and in some ways perhaps preferable to our grand USA.  Maybe that was not the case in the 1890s as I know virtually nothing about the history of Sweden, or perhaps the affiliation with that specific religious faith was the key.

Did you know former Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme was a Kenyon grad, overlapping with yours truly (re:  the real Paul Newman)?  He wrote a senior thesis about the United Auto Workers union.  He was assassinated in Sweden in 1986...."His murder by an unapprehended assailant on a street in Stockholm on 28 February 1986 was the first of its kind in modern Swedish history, and the first assassination of a national leader since Gustav III. It had a great impact across Scandinavia.[1] Local convict and addict Christer Pettersson was convicted of the murder in the first instance court tingsrätten, but was acquitted on appeal to the Svea hovrätt." (Wikipedia)

RE:  U Chicago and is reputation for brutal misery.....all the more impressive that such talented soccer players can manage the rigors of the school with the commitment necessary to compete at a high level.  I think of Swarthmore and Hopkins as perhaps similar for really smart kids with perhaps a bit of a masochistic streak.

YUP!! Especially the engineering and pre-med kids at Hopkins. I was poli-sci and once you figured out how to write 25 page mid-term papers, it was fine. But those guys? Brutal. And while I suspect it was more myth than reality, there was a term called "throating" at Hopkins that was short for "cut throat." I guess for a time those classes were graded on a very strict curve system, so there were incentives to mess with people's lab results and to not share lecture notes and other stuff. Seemed to have been mostly rectified by the time I got there... But the culture was still VERY intense and stressful.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:58:22 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 22, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
YUP!! Especially the engineering and pre-med kids at Hopkins. I was poli-sci and once you figured out how to write 25 page mid-term papers, it was fine. But those guys? Brutal. And while I suspect it was more myth than reality, there was a term called "throating" at Hopkins that was short for "cut throat." I guess for a time those classes were graded on a very strict curve system, so there were incentives to mess with people's lab results and to not share lecture notes and other stuff. Seemed to have been mostly rectified by the time I got there... But the culture was still VERY intense and stressful.

Yeah, I've heard Hopkins is brutal for pre-meds so I don't think that's all myth.  My impression is that fellow pre-med mecca Wash U is a bit friendlier but the weed out is still pretty unforgiving.  The handful of kids who go to places like Hopkins, Wash U, Chicago, MIT, etc and play soccer (or any sport) AND pull 3.9+'s in pre-med are off the charts.  And, since some day they may be operating on your brain or heart, we of course want them to be off the charts.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:24:22 PM
Do we have a link to the goal Brandeis scored on Tufts besides the one from the Brandeis bench of which you cannot see anything... I have still not see the goal
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 12:31:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 12:11:45 AM
One thing's for sure at the U of C -- you play sports there for your own satisfaction and for the sake of your teammates, not because there's any sort of campus glory in it. I've met several Maroons and ex-Maroons over the years, and there's a refreshing lack of ego about them with regard to their athletic accomplishments. I suspect that toiling in anonymity at sports on a campus where excellence is measured in brainpower rather than musclepower gives you that healthy perspective about yourself as a student-athlete.

RE:  U Chicago students not caring a lick about the soccer teams or sports in general (or even having much awareness that there are sports teams).  While Chicago may be at the extreme end in this regard, I think the lack of general campus interest applies at many of these schools and perhaps with D3 overall other than the oft-mentioned exceptions like Messiah, OWU, etc where relatively large attendance is the norm.  My daughter played soccer in high school but she never cared to observe a single men's soccer match at Rochester in her 4 years.  She stopped by a women's match once for 15 minutes because a high school teammate/friend was there playing for a visiting school.

Oh, I absolutely agree. It's just more noticeable at a place like the U of C that has 6,000 undergraduates and an overall community (undergrads, grad students, faculty, and staff) that is bigger than any three other Illinois-based D3 schools combined. While I've only been down to Hyde Park to see three sports played there (men's soccer, men's basketball, and women's basketball), the number of Chicago students who attend those contests is roughly the same as the typical number you'd find at a CCIW school in those sports -- and CCIW schools have one-third the number of undergraduates as does the U of C. That's a striking difference.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:28:04 AMBeyond those with an immediate connection to players on teams and former players and parents, the reach of interest is pretty narrow.  It's a big deal to me as a former parent (although I'm often wondering how long that will last as my narcissistic attachment and over-identification dissipate more and more over time), and the tournament especially as it is happening is huge (with some natural drop in interest once "my team" exits).  I don't sense that D1 soccer is that different, and I barely follow D1 soccer at all.

Soccer is a little different than other major sports in that it's still an acquired taste for Americans in terms of spectating and viewership. (Of course, it's far more popular as a participatory sport, especially among young people, which is why the future is bright as far as D3 men's soccer attendance numbers are concerned.) I can name plenty of D3 schools here in the midwest that have great attendance for football, men's basketball, and even baseball that can't draw squat in terms of men's soccer. It's generally only the schools that have long traditions of soccer excellence (NPU, Wheaton, and Loras, for example) that draw well, and even having a well-established program is no guarantee in that regard; UW-Whitewater, which has been really solid for ages under Tony Guinn's leadership (13 tourney appearances in the last 19 seasons), barely averages 100 fans per match. And that's a school of about 11,000 undergraduate students.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:24:22 PM
Do we have a link to the goal Brandeis scored on Tufts besides the one from the Brandeis bench of which you cannot see anything... I have still not see the goal

I put an inquiry out to the Brandeis SID as well -- I didn't even get to see the JumboCast which missed the goal! He said that he'd try to get a snip, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Regardless, I suppose the Brandeis bench video is better than nothing.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 01:02:05 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 12:52:07 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:24:22 PM
Do we have a link to the goal Brandeis scored on Tufts besides the one from the Brandeis bench of which you cannot see anything... I have still not see the goal

I put an inquiry out to the Brandeis SID as well -- I didn't even get to see the JumboCast which missed the goal! He said that he'd try to get a snip, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Regardless, I suppose the Brandeis bench video is better than nothing.


Not really...It is basically nothing because you cannot see the goal at all and all you get is the Brandeis players running onto the field...It is maybe 1/2 of nothing
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: casualfan on November 22, 2017, 01:04:50 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 12:31:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 12:11:45 AM
One thing's for sure at the U of C -- you play sports there for your own satisfaction and for the sake of your teammates, not because there's any sort of campus glory in it. I've met several Maroons and ex-Maroons over the years, and there's a refreshing lack of ego about them with regard to their athletic accomplishments. I suspect that toiling in anonymity at sports on a campus where excellence is measured in brainpower rather than musclepower gives you that healthy perspective about yourself as a student-athlete.

RE:  U Chicago students not caring a lick about the soccer teams or sports in general (or even having much awareness that there are sports teams).  While Chicago may be at the extreme end in this regard, I think the lack of general campus interest applies at many of these schools and perhaps with D3 overall other than the oft-mentioned exceptions like Messiah, OWU, etc where relatively large attendance is the norm.  My daughter played soccer in high school but she never cared to observe a single men's soccer match at Rochester in her 4 years.  She stopped by a women's match once for 15 minutes because a high school teammate/friend was there playing for a visiting school.

Oh, I absolutely agree. It's just more noticeable at a place like the U of C that has 6,000 undergraduates and an overall community (undergrads, grad students, faculty, and staff) that is bigger than any three other Illinois-based D3 schools combined. While I've only been down to Hyde Park to see three sports played there (men's soccer, men's basketball, and women's basketball), the number of Chicago students who attend those contests is roughly the same as the typical number you'd find at a CCIW school in those sports -- and CCIW schools have one-third the number of undergraduates as does the U of C. That's a striking difference.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:28:04 AMBeyond those with an immediate connection to players on teams and former players and parents, the reach of interest is pretty narrow.  It's a big deal to me as a former parent (although I'm often wondering how long that will last as my narcissistic attachment and over-identification dissipate more and more over time), and the tournament especially as it is happening is huge (with some natural drop in interest once "my team" exits).  I don't sense that D1 soccer is that different, and I barely follow D1 soccer at all.

Soccer is a little different than other major sports in that it's still an acquired taste for Americans in terms of spectating and viewership. (Of course, it's far more popular as a participatory sport, especially among young people, which is why the future is bright as far as D3 men's soccer attendance numbers are concerned.) I can name plenty of D3 schools here in the midwest that have great attendance for football, men's basketball, and even baseball that can't draw squat in terms of men's soccer. It's generally only the schools that have long traditions of soccer excellence (NPU, Wheaton, and Loras, for example) that draw well, and even having a well-established program is no guarantee in that regard; UW-Whitewater, which has been really solid for ages under Tony Guinn's leadership (13 tourney appearances in the last 19 seasons), barely averages 100 fans per match. And that's a school of about 11,000 undergraduate students.

Regarding UW-Whitewater... UWW football tends to the lead the country in football attendance year after year (though that may not be the case as of late due to their recent decline).

One small note: Tony Guinn has only been leading the Warhawks since 2012. Guinn has 3 NCAA appearances in 6 seasons. Greg Henschel was the head man from 1999-2011 and he was in charge for 9 NCAA appearances in 13 seasons while also serving as Head Coach for the women from 2000-2011 and helping that program reach national prominence. He then accepted a Division I job with UW-Milwaukee Women but didn't last long there though and has not coached in college soccer since the 2014 season.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 01:10:01 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 01:02:05 PM
Not really...It is basically nothing because you cannot see the goal at all and all you get is the Brandeis players running onto the field...It is maybe 1/2 of nothing

Well I was working off of absolutely nothing in missing the broadcast...so the glass of nothing is half full for me! ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 01:15:51 PM
It's fine we all understand where your heart is....Still it would be nice to see the goal. I suppose I would have been more pissed if I happened to be watching the stream during the actual goal and the camera missed it..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2017, 01:29:19 PM
Quote from: casualfan on November 22, 2017, 01:04:50 PM
Regarding UW-Whitewater... UWW football tends to the lead the country in football attendance year after year (though that may not be the case as of late due to their recent decline).

Yep, and the Warhawks also draw really well for men's basketball, too. It's quite remarkable how much student support they get, considering that UWW is regarded as a "suitcase school". Nevertheless, this makes the lack of support for men's soccer even more glaring.

Quote from: casualfan on November 22, 2017, 01:04:50 PMOne small note: Tony Guinn has only been leading the Warhawks since 2012. Guinn has 3 NCAA appearances in 6 seasons. Greg Henschel was the head man from 1999-2011 and he was in charge for 9 NCAA appearances in 13 seasons while also serving as Head Coach for the women from 2000-2011 and helping that program reach national prominence. He then accepted a Division I job with UW-Milwaukee Women but didn't last long there though and has not coached in college soccer since the 2014 season.

Yes, I know (although I wasn't aware of what happened to Henschel). That's my bad for typing up the stuff about UWW and including Guinn's name, and then deciding to stick in the UWW tourney-appearance factoid without editing the post.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on November 22, 2017, 03:57:46 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 10:58:22 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 22, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
YUP!! Especially the engineering and pre-med kids at Hopkins. I was poli-sci and once you figured out how to write 25 page mid-term papers, it was fine. But those guys? Brutal. And while I suspect it was more myth than reality, there was a term called "throating" at Hopkins that was short for "cut throat." I guess for a time those classes were graded on a very strict curve system, so there were incentives to mess with people's lab results and to not share lecture notes and other stuff. Seemed to have been mostly rectified by the time I got there... But the culture was still VERY intense and stressful.

Yeah, I've heard Hopkins is brutal for pre-meds so I don't think that's all myth.  My impression is that fellow pre-med mecca Wash U is a bit friendlier but the weed out is still pretty unforgiving. 

As a Wash U alum, that's my impression as well.  (Although things may have changed in the 30 years since I graduated!)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on November 22, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on November 21, 2017, 01:59:41 PM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 11:32:26 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 21, 2017, 11:27:27 AM
Quote from: Bobcat1 on November 21, 2017, 11:11:58 AM
Conor Coleman of Tufts should be Defensive POY

Coleman definitely deserves AA status, and given Tufts' overall defensive record I'm sure Coleman will garner some votes for DPOY.  That said, he is not the overall dynamic phenomenon that Vegter is.  Vegter is in a different category.

Completely agree with Paul. Coleman had a breakout year and as much as I would love for a NESCAC player to win the award, Vegter might be the best D3 defender I've seen. Him and Lanahan are the best two in my memory. As Paul said, Coleman will get some form of AA recognition, as he should, but I just don't see him winning DPOY.

Admittedly, I don't know Vegter. Looking at results, he led a defense which allowed 10 goals in 23 games. Coleman anchored a defense that allowed 2 goals in 21 games while playing a much tougher schedule than Vegter. It all depends on your perspective. In looking at Vegter's offensive stats it certainly would appear he is a dynamic player out of the back (4g, 10a). That being said, I think Coleman will get some significant consideration.

I was at the Chicago-Calvin game this past weekend and had mentioned that Chicago, after scoring early, was consistently making Calvin build from the back. This was the first time I had seen Vegter in person and have to say he was an absolute stud.  I guess you can question how many goals one team gives up vs another, but I can see how this kid had 10 A and 4G.  As Calvin would spread the pitch Vegter would be putting left footed lasers 50 yds down field and no more than 10 ft off the ground right onto the boots of his wings.  It really was an amazing display.

Vegter is an absolute freak. He is the type of player that would be an AA at ANY position in D3 (besides goalie). In addition to Lanahan and Vegter, I would add tom carwile from Trinity a few years back. He anchored a defense that was top 3 in shutouts, goals allowed, and shots allowed AND he had like 10 goals and 5 assists or something ridiculous.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 22, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Vegter is an absolute freak. He is the type of player that would be an AA at ANY position in D3 (besides goalie). In addition to Lanahan and Vegter, I would add tom carwile from Trinity a few years back. He anchored a defense that was top 3 in shutouts, goals allowed, and shots allowed AND he had like 10 goals and 5 assists or something ridiculous.

Without opening a can of worms (maybe it's already been opened), I'd have Sam Williams on that list, too. Very good on the ball and all-round just a very good defender. All told, those four are the best that I've seen in D3.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 22, 2017, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

WOW 35-1 to a team with the best record and beat the team you have favorited. Interesting to see how it plays out
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 22, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Vegter is an absolute freak. He is the type of player that would be an AA at ANY position in D3 (besides goalie). In addition to Lanahan and Vegter, I would add tom carwile from Trinity a few years back. He anchored a defense that was top 3 in shutouts, goals allowed, and shots allowed AND he had like 10 goals and 5 assists or something ridiculous.

Without opening a can of worms (maybe it's already been opened), I'd have Sam Williams on that list, too. Very good on the ball and all-round just a very good defender. All told, those four are the best that I've seen in D3.

Haha.....now we've got a full scale argument.  The Messiah faithful will be coming out in droves for the older Robbins brother who played CB a few years ago.  I got to get in a vote for Sam Justice.  Wasn't there a Redlands CB who played in MLS in the last 2-3 years?

All that said, we have several posters who have no idea who the others are and who have zero to do with Calvin who recognize Vegter's talent.  I would guess he could have been a scholarship player at Michigan.  A lot of brothers at the forefront in D3 soccer.....Ocel, Robbins, Thompson, Vegter, Aoyama, Myers, Halliday, etc, etc.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 22, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 22, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Vegter is an absolute freak. He is the type of player that would be an AA at ANY position in D3 (besides goalie). In addition to Lanahan and Vegter, I would add tom carwile from Trinity a few years back. He anchored a defense that was top 3 in shutouts, goals allowed, and shots allowed AND he had like 10 goals and 5 assists or something ridiculous.

Without opening a can of worms (maybe it's already been opened), I'd have Sam Williams on that list, too. Very good on the ball and all-round just a very good defender. All told, those four are the best that I've seen in D3.

Haha.....now we've got a full scale argument.  The Messiah faithful will be coming out in droves for the older Robbins brother who played CB a few years ago.  I got to get in a vote for Sam Justice.  Wasn't there a Redlands CB who played in MLS in the last 2-3 years?

All that said, we have several posters who have no idea who the others are and who have zero to do with Calvin who recognize Vegter's talent.  I would guess he could have been a scholarship player at Michigan.  A lot of brothers at the forefront in D3 soccer.....Ocel, Robbins, Thompson, Vegter, Aoyama, Myers, Halliday, etc, etc.

Richie Marquez from the Union played at Redlands.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: letsGOswans! on November 22, 2017, 06:24:27 PM
Vegter's athleticism is indeed impressive. Best defender I have seen in D3 was the older Robbins brother from Messiah or Brewster from Bowdoin.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: martin on November 22, 2017, 06:40:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

Those odds collectively add up to 39.2%.  Is there a fifth team in the final four with a 60.8% chance of winning?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on November 22, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
Quote from: martin on November 22, 2017, 06:40:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

Those odds collectively add up to 39.2%.  Is there a fifth team in the final four with a 60.8% chance of winning?

I'm assuming those were odds as of the beginning of the tournament.  If not, then you're right, and I definitely want a lot of action at those odds.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 10:27:25 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 22, 2017, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

WOW 35-1 to a team with the best record and beat the team you have favorited. Interesting to see how it plays out


Hey if you like the odds for North Park by all means put some bananas down as I can give you a banana account #...In all seriousness the reason IMO they are heavy dogs is because I am not overly impressed with their schedule. I do not see many quality wins on that schedule. I also will say this past weekend was the FIRST time North Park played a back to back any yes they did defeat both teams and shut them out I truly believe their road to the Final 4 was much easier than that of the other 3 and it might show next weekend. Yes they did beat Chicago 1-0 a month ago but it was a very even game and I thought Chicago outplayed them in the 2nd Half. Like you said we will see how it plays out.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 10:35:29 PM
Quote from: martin on November 22, 2017, 06:40:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

Those odds collectively add up to 39.2%.  Is there a fifth team in the final four with a 60.8% chance of winning?


Yea Bowdoin I think....I did not collectively add them up to 100% just did them on the flip..But yea if you want in PM me and we can figure something out...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 10:37:00 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on November 22, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
Quote from: martin on November 22, 2017, 06:40:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

Those odds collectively add up to 39.2%.  Is there a fifth team in the final four with a 60.8% chance of winning?

I'm assuming those were odds as of the beginning of the tournament.  If not, then you're right, and I definitely want a lot of action at those odds.


OK but a minimum of 1 team only..Cannot put bananas on all 4..Sorry
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on November 22, 2017, 11:50:21 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 10:27:25 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on November 22, 2017, 05:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 22, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
2017 Championship Odds:

Chicago   6-1
Messiah   8-1
Brandeis  14-1
North Park  35-1

WOW 35-1 to a team with the best record and beat the team you have favorited. Interesting to see how it plays out


Hey if you like the odds for North Park by all means put some bananas down as I can give you a banana account #...In all seriousness the reason IMO they are heavy dogs is because I am not overly impressed with their schedule. I do not see many quality wins on that schedule. I also will say this past weekend was the FIRST time North Park played a back to back any yes they did defeat both teams and shut them out I truly believe their road to the Final 4 was much easier than that of the other 3 and it might show next weekend. Yes they did beat Chicago 1-0 a month ago but it was a very even game and I thought Chicago outplayed them in the 2nd Half. Like you said we will see how it plays out.

I think North Park is favored in this match-up. They are the most athletic side Chicago faced all year (more than Calvin even), which gave them fits defensively. Speed kills, and NPU has a ton of it. Their defense was very organized and even when Chicago woke up after halftime after sleepwalking through the first half, they had a hard time penetrating the back four. The game should have been a 1-1 tie, if not for NPU's save of the year on Lopez's top shelf header.
I'll be very curious to see how Greensboro's surface affects speed of play. Chicago's turf is one of the fastest in the nation, which the two teams last played on.
That said, factors that weigh against North Park: easiest road to Final 4 I've seen in years and cleaned out a sub-par CCIW this season; first time on this stage; Chicago out for revenge and hard to beat same team twice; will have to figure out how to assign multiple defenders to both Lopez and Koh; must deny Lopez in the air.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: The Cove on November 23, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 22, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Vegter is an absolute freak. He is the type of player that would be an AA at ANY position in D3 (besides goalie). In addition to Lanahan and Vegter, I would add tom carwile from Trinity a few years back. He anchored a defense that was top 3 in shutouts, goals allowed, and shots allowed AND he had like 10 goals and 5 assists or something ridiculous.

Without opening a can of worms (maybe it's already been opened), I'd have Sam Williams on that list, too. Very good on the ball and all-round just a very good defender. All told, those four are the best that I've seen in D3.

Haha.....now we've got a full scale argument.  The Messiah faithful will be coming out in droves for the older Robbins brother who played CB a few years ago.  I got to get in a vote for Sam Justice.  Wasn't there a Redlands CB who played in MLS in the last 2-3 years?

All that said, we have several posters who have no idea who the others are and who have zero to do with Calvin who recognize Vegter's talent.  I would guess he could have been a scholarship player at Michigan.  A lot of brothers at the forefront in D3 soccer.....Ocel, Robbins, Thompson, Vegter, Aoyama, Myers, Halliday, etc, etc.

This conversation takes me back to seeing Vegter play against Kenyon when he was a freshman left-back and watching him thrive in an extremely high-pressure situation. If I recall, Calvin's centre-back that year was equally as talented and helped shutout a strong Kenyon attack.

Adding to the family success, Vegter's brother, Travis, scored two great strikes against the Lords in 2013 in a crazy game that finished 4-2.

Re: Sam Justice, is he even the best Kenyon CB with Lowry, Myers, Nolan, and Fischer wearing purple and black so recently?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 23, 2017, 07:34:34 PM
Quote from: The Cove on November 23, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 22, 2017, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 22, 2017, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on November 22, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Vegter is an absolute freak. He is the type of player that would be an AA at ANY position in D3 (besides goalie). In addition to Lanahan and Vegter, I would add tom carwile from Trinity a few years back. He anchored a defense that was top 3 in shutouts, goals allowed, and shots allowed AND he had like 10 goals and 5 assists or something ridiculous.

Without opening a can of worms (maybe it's already been opened), I'd have Sam Williams on that list, too. Very good on the ball and all-round just a very good defender. All told, those four are the best that I've seen in D3.

Haha.....now we've got a full scale argument.  The Messiah faithful will be coming out in droves for the older Robbins brother who played CB a few years ago.  I got to get in a vote for Sam Justice.  Wasn't there a Redlands CB who played in MLS in the last 2-3 years?

All that said, we have several posters who have no idea who the others are and who have zero to do with Calvin who recognize Vegter's talent.  I would guess he could have been a scholarship player at Michigan.  A lot of brothers at the forefront in D3 soccer.....Ocel, Robbins, Thompson, Vegter, Aoyama, Myers, Halliday, etc, etc.

This conversation takes me back to seeing Vegter play against Kenyon when he was a freshman left-back and watching him thrive in an extremely high-pressure situation. If I recall, Calvin's centre-back that year was equally as talented and helped shutout a strong Kenyon attack.

Adding to the family success, Vegter's brother, Travis, scored two great strikes against the Lords in 2013 in a crazy game that finished 4-2.

Re: Sam Justice, is he even the best Kenyon CB with Lowry, Myers, Nolan, and Fischer wearing purple and black so recently?

LOL.  I hope you aren't one of Sam's teammates saying that.  In a word, yes....with Lowry a very close second.  Myers is a tremendous all around athlete who was a natural attacking mid moved to CB and then moved up top.  Like with Myers this year for the NCAA tourney, Sam's serious injury put a damper on the finish to his career which was unfortunate for him and the team.  Sam also was a NCAA Postgrad Scholar, a tremendous honor for any student-athlete...and one of the most modest and selfless people you will ever meet.

You failed to mention that in that 4-2 Calvin game Kenyon were the victors after being behind at the half 2-0.  That was just the 2nd game of the season (played in the OWU early season tournament) but was critical to saving Kenyon's NCAA hopes in 2013 after losing in OT the day before to Kean on a major miscue between a CB and the GK...which was Clougher's frosh year and the loss led to Clougher taking over GK duties from there.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: The Cove on November 23, 2017, 09:35:03 PM
Very well put, PaulNewman!

At the end of the day, Kenyon have succeeded in both recruiting and coaching excellent defenders in recent years — which has made it significantly easier for any goalkeepers. It also looks like that trend will continue with Lowry, Carpenter, and other significant talents returning next year!

And I meant no insult to Justice who was perhaps the physically strongest player I have ever seen. I merely hoped to compliment the other talented defenders on show (while adding a bit of facetious humor).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on November 24, 2017, 09:25:40 PM
Quote from: letsGOswans! on November 22, 2017, 06:24:27 PM
Vegter's athleticism is indeed impressive. Best defender I have seen in D3 was the older Robbins brother from Messiah or Brewster from Bowdoin.

Vegter is the best defender I have seen in several years.

Regarding defenders at Messiah, Robbins was awfully good (and so is his younger brother Cooper, a current sophomore), but IMO JD Binger from the last decade was better in the back--partly b/c he was faster and could run all day--and absolutely better as an attacker. Indeed, it wasn't unheard of for the Falcons to bring Binger up into the box late in crucial games in which they were trailing by one goal, knowing that he was as good in the MF as anyone else on the team.

The defensive POY in the MAC Commonwealth this year is Falcon CB Dakota Rosenberg. I was actually surprised by that choice--not b/c Rosenberg isn't really good (he is), but b/c Lycoming CB Thomas (who is 6'6'' tall) might have been my own first choice for that honor. Thomas has already been mentioned in this thread as a worthy candidate for national consideration. Now, perhaps I have been influenced in my thinking by the fact that Thomas is just so noticeable at that size, and b/c he always seems to be in the middle of everything happening defensively. IMO he' better defensively than his more well-known JR teammate Sinclair Tueno, but Tueno's offensive numbers are as impressive as Vegter's while Thomas' are not. On the other hand, I hadn't realized just how fast Rosenberg is until Rudy told us the other day that he is probably the second fastest Falcon, behind the blazing Nick West. I did notice last week against Rochester, that Rosenberg just flat ran down a Rochester forward who had 2-3 full strides on him about 40 yards from the end line, so I can believe that information. The fact that he almost never seems to do that therefore means, not that he can't do it, but that he plays such great position defense that he dosn't need to do it. In other words, he isn't flashy b/c he's subtle and smart.

I'm not making the case for Rosenberg on the national stage. But, perhaps he's just better than I have realized hitherto, and maybe he really is at least as good as Thomas, whose talent I've always seen and perhaps even envied as a fan of a rival team.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on November 25, 2017, 06:17:55 PM
I was checking out the women's bracket and their final four consists of four team with no more than 1 loss. two teams undefeated. other 2 with 1 loss. should be an interesting weekend for both sides
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEFutbol90 on November 28, 2017, 06:54:28 PM
United Soccer Coaches released their coaching staffs of the year today, and it is great to see St.Joes (Maine) coaching staff recognized for the incredible season they put together. Seeing first hand as I'm sure is consistent among all our favorite programs is a head coach that is uniquely driven to create an environment that is supportive, competitive, and most importantly professional. The way Coach Adrian Dubois has flipped this program is incredible as seen in the dramatic increase in wins, accolades, etc., but what he's done to provide an incredible support system for his players goes unnoticed. It is truly a family environment that is set up to support every player academically, socially, and athletically and this award for the entire staff stretches far beyond their guidance on the field. Congrats Coach Dubois and the rest of the Monks coaching staff!


Here is the press release by the Monks SID: http://www.gomonks.com/sports/msoc/2017-18/releases/20171128q5dy9n
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 29, 2017, 02:28:33 PM
Quote from: NEFutbol90 on November 28, 2017, 06:54:28 PM
United Soccer Coaches released their coaching staffs of the year today, and it is great to see St.Joes (Maine) coaching staff recognized for the incredible season they put together. Seeing first hand as I'm sure is consistent among all our favorite programs is a head coach that is uniquely driven to create an environment that is supportive, competitive, and most importantly professional. The way Coach Adrian Dubois has flipped this program is incredible as seen in the dramatic increase in wins, accolades, etc., but what he's done to provide an incredible support system for his players goes unnoticed. It is truly a family environment that is set up to support every player academically, socially, and athletically and this award for the entire staff stretches far beyond their guidance on the field. Congrats Coach Dubois and the rest of the Monks coaching staff!


Here is the press release by the Monks SID: http://www.gomonks.com/sports/msoc/2017-18/releases/20171128q5dy9n


Absolutely correct...That is a MASSIVE turnaround for this once dormant program..Now all you St.Joe's fans need to worry about it is if you can keep him..Not to be a downer but I am guessing he is not highly compensated at St.Joe's. Sometimes schools with limited budgets will add Assistant AD to his title or whatnot to get him some more money but who knows...You would have to think he will be applying to some openings at Top D3 schools or even some lower level D1 schools..AD's will take notice when you make something out of nothing and are always impressed by that in any sport.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on November 29, 2017, 06:20:49 PM
Here's the link for the regional teams that were announced:

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Awards/Awards_Central/web/Awards/Awards_Central_2017.aspx?hkey=a6159cd0-434d-4d80-8a85-433d7524d2fe
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on November 29, 2017, 09:50:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 29, 2017, 02:28:33 PM
Quote from: NEFutbol90 on November 28, 2017, 06:54:28 PM
United Soccer Coaches released their coaching staffs of the year today, and it is great to see St.Joes (Maine) coaching staff recognized for the incredible season they put together. Seeing first hand as I'm sure is consistent among all our favorite programs is a head coach that is uniquely driven to create an environment that is supportive, competitive, and most importantly professional. The way Coach Adrian Dubois has flipped this program is incredible as seen in the dramatic increase in wins, accolades, etc., but what he's done to provide an incredible support system for his players goes unnoticed. It is truly a family environment that is set up to support every player academically, socially, and athletically and this award for the entire staff stretches far beyond their guidance on the field. Congrats Coach Dubois and the rest of the Monks coaching staff!


Here is the press release by the Monks SID: http://www.gomonks.com/sports/msoc/2017-18/releases/20171128q5dy9n


Absolutely correct...That is a MASSIVE turnaround for this once dormant program..Now all you St.Joe's fans need to worry about it is if you can keep him..Not to be a downer but I am guessing he is not highly compensated at St.Joe's. Sometimes schools with limited budgets will add Assistant AD to his title or whatnot to get him some more money but who knows...You would have to think he will be applying to some openings at Top D3 schools or even some lower level D1 schools..AD's will take notice when you make something out of nothing and are always impressed by that in any sport.

Mr. Right,
I don't think you're being a downer in suggesting Coach Dubois may not be at St. Joe's much longer - I think it's a natural progression to think of what's next for him.  My son has one more year of eligibility, so I'm hoping he sticks around at least one more year, but after that I would like to see how well Coach Dubois could do at other top D3 schools or even D1 programs.  It's certainly been a fun ride...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on December 01, 2017, 03:50:44 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 21, 2017, 10:44:12 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 21, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 21, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on November 19, 2017, 12:18:40 AM
Candidates for National Player of the Year?

Lopez for me. 19 goals on the year (4 in UAA play) so far for a team with one of the most difficult schedules in the country (.633 SoS). Scored in both the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 matches, as well as the 1st Round. Clearly a big-game player who can produce despite very much being a "marked man."

Co-sign. He had a hat trick against Emory in the Elite 8, but two were wiped off by a foul and an offside.

I agree, as well. I know D3soccer.com does Forward, Midfielder and Defender of the Year.

Forward: Max Lopez, Chicago
Midfielder: Josh Ocel, Brandeis
Defender: Trent Vegter, Calvin

All three were named to the United Soccer Coaches first team, as expected; Connor Coleman who was mentioned later in the thread also received first team selection. Congrats to Ocel who was an AA for third straight year, very impressive. Surprised to not see Kyle Thomas (Lycoming) on any of the teams. His teammate Sainclair Tueno, incredible athlete, was named to the second team. Congratulations to all the receipients, this is something to be proud of.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 04, 2017, 10:43:59 AM
Shooter's Final Rankings
1. Messiah (24-2-0)
2. North Park (20-2-2)
3. Chicago (19-2-2)
4. Brandeis (17-5-0)
5. Tufts (15-2-4)
6. St. Thomas (22-2-0)
7. Calvin (21-1-1)
8. Hopkins (16-1-4)
9. Drew (21-1-1)
10. Otterbein (19-3-0)
11. Lycoming (19-3-0)
12. W&L (15-5-2)
13. Amherst (12-4-3)
14. Emory (15-5-2)
15. Rochester (14-4-3)
16. Newark (20-3-1)
17. Oneonta (15-2-3)
18. Stevens (13-7-2)
19. Mary Hardin-Baylor (17-3-1)
20. St. Joe's (19-0-2)
21. Trinity (21-2-0)
22. John Carroll (16-3-2)
23. Kenyon (16-3-3)
24. Lynchburg (18-2-2)
25. Springfield (15-1-3)
RV: Ogelthorpe (17-2-2), Cortland St (16-4-0), Loras (14-6-1), Rowan (17-4-1), Buffalo St (14-3-3), Transylvania (17-2-0)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on December 04, 2017, 01:13:33 PM
Now that I am back home and can say more about the season as a whole, I'll start by congratulating Brandeis, NPU, and Chicago for tremendous seasons. You don't get to the final four without deserving to be there. The Brandeis seniors in particular merit further congratulations for doing it multiple times! Judging from the stats and the descriptions (remember, I didn't see the game myself), Brandeis played awfully well, proving they belonged in the final four and almost pulling it off when they got the second goal with just 10 minutes remaining. I feel for them and for their fans. Josh Ocel might be the best player in D3 this season—he certainly has a strong case to make. If Brandeis had won, it would have been fun to see him against NPU. With an outstanding coach and a great tradition in what might now be the top conference in D3, I won't be surprised to find Brandeis on the top of the podium sooner or later. The same can obviously be said about Chicago and NPU, both of whom will return their best players, especially NPU—the youngest team (in terms of class standing) I can remember seeing in the final game. (One puzzle for me: according to the United Soccer Coaches web site, NPU first team AA MF Matias Warp is a SR. But, he's listed as just a sophomore on NPU's roster. Can someone sort this out?) Messiah loses a lot more to graduation (three SR AAs) than either Chicago or NPU. Anyone anticipating a Chicago-NPU final in 2018 wouldn't be just blowin' smoke.

And Calvin should be awfully strong again, too. Recall that just three weeks ago I picked Calvin to win it all, partly b/c I had been so impressed by them last fall, when they came from behind to beat Messiah in 2OT in Grantham. They had just dominated the Falcons for the larger part of that game, even though the Falcons almost put them away in the first half, when they scored their only goal and so narrowly missed getting two more. This means exactly what it appears to mean: I had doubts that this particular Falcon team would go all the way.

My doubts contradicted a prediction I made here, either early in 2016 or late in 2015. I can't find the pertinent thread, or I'd bring the prediction out of electronic limbo and give it new life. Having seen the talent of the current JR class (mainly West, Alejos, Ruiz Plaza, Bell, and Brautigam) on display for 20-30 games early in their careers, at that point I said that I would not be surprised if they won it all before they graduated. I should have had more faith in that conviction this fall. Even late in the season, however, I had not yet seen them play as a team at quite the level I believed they were capable of playing (see below). I knew they had high level talent, perhaps more than all but two or three classes in Falcon history. After all, this group started together several times in their first season—something that hadn't happened in Grantham for probably twenty years, if ever. For comparison, the great class of 2014-15 (the one everyone here remembers, the "Giant" killed by Kane's deflected shot in the first minute of the game with Tufts) had just a single freshman starter, Jack Thompson, a national HS AA (I think). Even Jeremy Payne, who was POY twice, started just two games as a freshman. No one else started more than once, including Brian Ramirez, arguably the most highly skilled player in the group. Carter Robbins didn't start even once. To be sure, the 2011 team was coming off three straight national championships, so the veterans were understandably fixed as starters, but the freshmen were in general much more talented, and once they all started as sophomores and juniors they won two titles. By comparison, three of the current juniors (all of them regional AAs in HS) started as freshmen almost right away, with Bell taking over in goal halfway through the season and Brautigam eventually getting 3 starts.

Their talent was supplemented by another very strong class right behind them, a class that produced two regular freshmen starters (Cooper Robbins and Shay Quintin), in addition to other players who would probably have started for almost any other team, especially Brit Haseltine and Jonathan Groothoff. This fall, it was Haseltine who made perhaps the single most impressive pass all season, the brilliant ball downfield to Kirby Robbins, whose own pass then set up West's last-second GW vs Hood. I expect Haseltine to start next year, either in Thomas' spot on the right wing or in Robbins' spot as target. He has all the tools.

But, it was the SRs who really stepped it up this year and made that crucial difference. Every SR starter probably had his best season this year. For once Colby Thomas was healthy, and he finally showed people he could go to his left from the right wing; Kirby Robbins made shots and plays he didn't make consistently in the past, becoming a truly dangerous striker against even the best defenses; Josh Bender had his best season ever as shut-down outside defender, and Dakota Rosenberg took home an AA award as a CB.

Nevertheless, it was not until the tournament, especially in the second weekend, that it all came together in a way I had not previously seen since 2013. They had played nearly as well toward the end of 2016, such that I was thinking of them as a final four team before the heartbreaking loss to Calvin, but not quite as well as they did this fall. In the sectional games against Stevens and Rochester, the Falcons were simply clinical at possession and shot selection—and that is always the key to gauging their level of play in any season. If they aren't at the top of their game in those aspects, then they just aren't at the top of their game anywhere else. The defense feeds off possession no less than the offense. It's because they couldn't consistently out-possess people in 2015 that the Falcons gave up four goals to CMU and four more to Rowan, both of them really good teams in their own right, but giving up four goals is something that had not happened even once since the beginning of the season in 1998! That was the only other time in my memory that the starting lineup had a comparable number of freshmen as they did in 2015. Brandt was just getting started; the talent was improving dramatically, but they were still very young and hadn't yet figured out how the system works.

The other crucial piece isn't visible with the eye test, because it's buried deep inside the heart and head. As I've said already a few times, this particular Falcon team had enormous resilience and determination, perhaps more than any other Falcon team this decade—though I hesitate to state or even imply that their predecessors lacked intensity or focus. They played one of the toughest schedules in recent memory (for Messiah, which is not in a particularly difficult conference despite having Lycoming and LVC), with truly excellent teams like JHU, Haverford (when they were playing like an excellent team), Rowan, and Lycoming (twice), along with some very good ones (Elizabethtown, Dickinson, Mary Washington, LVC). McCarty was certainly second-guessing himself about that, especially after a much weaker schedule last fall. Yet, the Falcons scored at least one goal in every single game, even though as a team they did not come near the level of scoring attained by several previous champions. That's a enormously important fact. To see what it means, I checked every other team in the final D3 top 10, plus JHU and Brandeis. Can anyone guess how many other teams in that group could also say that they scored in every game? The answer is just one: Trinity. For comparison, Tufts was shut out six (!) times this season, which is the main reason I wasn't worried about playing them, if they had gotten past Brandeis (who was shut out 3 times). Calvin wasn't shut out until their final game against Chicago, but Chicago was shut out 3 times (twice by NPU, although they admittedly had a legitimate goal called back the second time). NPU had just that one shutout vs Chicago, just as Lycoming had just one vs Messiah. Looking back only at past Falcon teams, we must go all the way back to 2010 to find a team that was never shut out; that team had just one blemish, a 2-1 opening game loss to Hobart before running the table—except that Lynchburg beat them fair and square in the final, only to have the Falcons tie it near the end of regulation on a crucial foul by the scorer that wasn't called against him. I still have an asterisk next to that title in my head; I regard Lynchburg as the real champion in 2010, so this year is actually 10, not 11, in the Falcons' Nest. Prior to that, we must go back to 2008 for a season without a shutout. That team had a 1-1 tie with TCNJ at home, a 2-1 loss to York (a common result in those days), a 1-1 tie vs Gettysburg (a common result in any decade, such that the two most recent games with GBurg have the same result), and a 1-1 tie with Stevens in the national final. That one went to the Falcons very easily in PKs, when backup GK Nick Blossey stoned 3 Stevens shooters. It wasn't luck—he had specifically trained just for that very role all season long. After losing to Salisbury on PKs back in 2003 (by a unbelievable score of something like 17-16, but I can't find a record of it), Brandt swore that would never happen again, so he took steps to prevent it.

In other words, the fact that the Falcons always scored at least one goal—and several times got that one goal or another GW goal very late in the game—is a very significant fact about this year's team. Just twice did they fail to win, both times going down 2-0 before getting one back. They did get one back. They just never quit. That was fully on display in the final four.

Taken together, what this means (at least to this longtime Falconer) is that Brad McCarty might have done his greatest coaching job this year. There is a natural tendency to award coach of the year to the man whose team wins the title. I can't criticize that, but IMO another coach is often more deserving of that award, all things considered. This year, however, I think McCarty is truly deserving of it. He took a very talented team (but not necessarily more talented than Chicago or NPU or Tufts or Calvin or Lycoming) all the way, but he did so by putting it all together in a more impressive manner than in many other Falcon seasons, whether the coach's name was Brandt or McCarty. Unlike some of those earlier Falcon teams, this team didn't demolish the best teams; they simply found a way to win, when perhaps they shouldn't have. Of course, the players deserve much of the credit: they didn't have to take the bull by the horns and face it down. They didn't have to keep giving up good shots for themselves to get even better ones for their teammates; they didn't have to keep playing as hard as they could, even late in the game when they were down on the scoreboard. They didn't have to trust the second team, which took a good chunk of the season before they really jelled. They kept the faith and did their best. But, that's the point: they did those things b/c they were taught to do those things. They might not always have been the more talented team, and they might always have played as well as they were capable of playing. But, they always believed in what they were doing, and never gave up. Coaching has everything to do with that. A very big shout out to Brad McCarty.

I'm sorry this is so long. Perhaps I'll add comments about the prospects for next year at some point, but I've said far more than I should for one day, so this might be my last comment for a while. In that case, my best wishes to all for a safe, joyous nine months before we meet again. I'll pay attention to any replies to these musings, but I will probably do so quietly. And, please don't copy all of this into your post—just include the one or two sentences that you need to address. Otherwise it will get tedious for everyone. Thanks for reading all this.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on December 04, 2017, 01:26:32 PM
I stupidly forgot to mention Danno Brandt, since he was a JR who wasn't really a JR. That's why he got left out. My major bad. He is a superb playmaker--that's his best role--and this year was a crucial cog in the wheel. My apologies to him and his teammates. I don't expect him to return for a final season, since he must have now enough credits to graduate. But, technically he's eligible for one more year, since he had a medical redshirt last fall at Wheaton. I'm delighted he came back to Messiah.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 04, 2017, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 04, 2017, 01:13:33 PM
For comparison, the great class of 2014-15 (the one everyone here remembers, the "Giant" killed by Kane's deflected shot in the first minute of the game with Tufts) had just a single freshman starter, Jack Thompson, a national HS AA (I think).


Just want to say that Kayne's shot didn't deflect (unless you count it skimming off the defender on the line's head). 

But congratulations to Messiah for winning this year.  That 2014 team was incredible, the best team I faced by a mile, but this year's group found a way to get in done. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on December 05, 2017, 12:24:39 PM
d4_pace.  Welcome.  Solid name

That 2014 Messiah team just might have been better than the 2013 squad... I still put the 2013 as one of their best in program history, regardless of record.   I have not witnessed a better front 6.

If Brandt did not use a season of eligibility at Palm Beach, will be protest for an additional year in 2019 if he continues his education?   I believe 10 semesters is the cut-off, with the need to apply for 6th year eligibility.    Are there circumstance where changing divisions extends that?

13 Messiah FR
14 Messiah SO
15 PBA
16 RS at Wheaton
17 Messiah JR
18 ???
19 Definitely out the question, correct?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 05, 2017, 01:20:27 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on December 05, 2017, 12:24:39 PM

d4_pace.  Welcome.  Solid name

That 2014 Messiah team just might have been better than the 2013 squad... I still put the 2013 as one of their best in program history, regardless of record.   I have not witnessed a better front 6.

If Brandt did not use a season of eligibility at Palm Beach, will be protest for an additional year in 2019 if he continues his education?

yeah I was going to say their 2013 team was better than 2014.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on December 05, 2017, 02:52:28 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 04, 2017, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 04, 2017, 01:13:33 PM
For comparison, the great class of 2014-15 (the one everyone here remembers, the “Giant” killed by Kane’s deflected shot in the first minute of the game with Tufts) had just a single freshman starter, Jack Thompson, a national HS AA (I think).


Just want to say that Kayne's shot didn't deflect (unless you count it skimming off the defender on the line's head). 

But congratulations to Messiah for winning this year.  That 2014 team was incredible, the best team I faced by a mile, but this year's group found a way to get in done. 


Thank you, d4. Someone on the team told me the shot was deflected, and who am I to say otherwise? But, you were there too, I gather, and your opinion is worth more than mine.  :D

That 2014 Tufts team was pretty darn good, too, and played the Falcons at least even on that day. Some on this board tend to downplay that team, even in one case saying that none of Tufts' starters could have played for Messiah. I beg to differ. I could name at least 3 or 4 who would have started for the Falcons, starting with Majumder. The only question would have been, exactly where would he have played? I think 2014 Tufts probably beats 2017 Messiah--but not in a shutout, which is why I also think 2017 Messiah beats 2017 Tufts, in a shutout. Of course we'll never know, will we? It'd be great if NESCAC and MAC teams took turns playing a weekend series on each other's fields, but I won't hold my breath since it's an awfully long bus ride in between.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on December 05, 2017, 03:09:17 PM

Deflected goals: see Messiah 2013 final four

1st goal vs Williams
1st goal vs Camden

Nearly identical situations for Ramirez... Shots off defender.   

Sometimes luck IS good, even when your team doesn't need it
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 05, 2017, 05:27:00 PM
What made the 2013 Messiah squad perhaps better than the 2014 version was Josh Wood.  Not only was he POY with his nose for goal, but having him in the lineup as the target allowed Jeremy Payne to play in the hole as an attacking mid which was where he was at his best. I think 2013 Messiah has a better shot of scoring and beating 2014 Tufts than 2014 Messiah.  That said, you replay the Tufts-Messiah Elite 8 match 10 times, 2014 Messiah is going score some goals and win 50% of the time or more and the "Giant Slayer" shot won't be repeated.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 05, 2017, 05:40:05 PM
Falconer,
It's funny that you Majumder was the first name you mentioned, since he didn't start for the 2014 team. 

In regards to playing each other during the regular season, we talked about how awesome it would be to go down and play at Messiah or have some of the other top teams come up to Medford for an early season tournament.  But with the NESCAC's stringent pre-season and opening weekend rules it was never feasible.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 05, 2017, 06:07:48 PM
Falconer, I think you were referring to me. IIRC I said I thought maybe 2-3 Tufts players might have started for Messiah. Of course the easiest method might be for you to suggest which 2014  Messiah players would not have started. You may also recall that I confused 2013 and 2014 Messiah squads which I conceded led me to overestimate in Messiah's favor. No question Tufts 2014 turned into a great team, but don't forget there was a real question of that team even getting a bid. I would contend that momentum meant a lot, beginning with the moment Mr. Kayne loves to remind us about, and continued in 2015, 2016 and even this year. Tufts now is a legit powerhouse. A couple of different bounces might have altered the trajectory, just like this year Messiah might have run into a tougher draw, especially in the sweet 16 and Elite 8, and of course a bounce Brandeis' way could have kept Messiah out of the Final.

You seem focused on Tufts with your focus on the importance of scoring and certainly there feels like a real rivalry is brewing. I was glad Brandeis knocked Tufts out but we also were thereby cheated out of a Messiah-Tufts rematch. It's hard to argue that Tufts would have been fortunate to reach the Final 4 without a  single goal, but Tufts might have had more offense in a more open game.  Messiah did leave teams a lot of space, especially on the counter, so who knows if Tufts would have scored and of course we don't know for sure that Messiah would have scored. Ultimately "what ifs" don't matter so congrats on another title, and maybe we will get another Messiah-Tufts showdown over the next couple of years.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 05, 2017, 08:20:19 PM
Quote from: Falconer on December 04, 2017, 01:13:33 PMThe same can obviously be said about Chicago and NPU, both of whom will return their best players, especially NPU—the youngest team (in terms of class standing) I can remember seeing in the final game. (One puzzle for me: according to the United Soccer Coaches web site, NPU first team AA MF Matias Warp is a SR. But, he's listed as just a sophomore on NPU's roster. Can someone sort this out?)

Warp has two years of eligibility remaining. However, like a lot of the Scandinavians that've played for North Park over the years, he arrived on campus with multiple college credits already in hand, since the gymnasium system in several European countries such as Norway and Sweden goes deeper into college-level curricula than is the case among American high schools, where AP class opportunities are sparser by comparison. I think that Matias will have enough credits in hand to graduate in May. Whether he does so or not, or whether he chooses to go on for a graduate degree at NPU that would allow him to continue playing (which is not uncommon among NPU student-athletes) remains to be seen.

It's part of the tradeoff that the NPU soccer program has made in bringing in Swedes and Norwegians. (It's true at NPU in general, in fact, since there are a lot of Swedes and Norwegians on campus who are not soccer players.) On the one hand, their high skill level and the fact that they're often a year or two or three older than their American peers has enabled NPU head coach John Born to plug them into the lineup immediately upon arrival without any of the usual growing pains associated with playing freshmen. On the other hand, it's meant that he's often only been able to get three years of playing time (or, in Warp's case, possibly only two) out of them before they graduate and return home to Scandinavia.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2017, 02:02:48 PM
December 8, 2017
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Final


#
School (1st Pl. Votes)
Record
Pts.
Prev.
1
Messiah (17)
24-2-0
1000
5
2
Chicago
19-2-2
946
7
3
North Park
20-2-2
908
12
4
Brandeis
17-5-0
842
20
5
Calvin
21-1-1
831
1
6
Tufts
15-2-4
786
3
7
St. Thomas
22-2-0
774
6
8
Johns Hopkins
16-1-4
646
11
9
Lycoming
19-3-0
626
4
10
Trinity (Texas)
21-2-0
602
2
11
Drew
21-1-1
600
10
12
Rutgers-Newark
20-3-1
466
8
13
Emory
15-5-2
431
14
Lynchburg
18-2-2
411
14
15
John Carroll
16-3-2
409
16
16
Oneonta State
15-2-3
404
9
17
Rochester
14-4-3
356
18
Otterbein
19-3-0
325
21
19
St. Joseph's (Maine)
19-0-2
318
17
20
Amherst
12-4-3
297
18
21
Cortland State
16-4-0
282
13
22
Rowan
17-4-1
261
15
23
Kenyon
16-3-3
211
19
24
Oglethorpe
17-2-2
151
22
25
Mary Hardin-Baylor
17-3-1
141

Dropped out: No. 23 Springfield, No. 24 Transylvania, No. 25 Christopher Newport

Receiving Votes: Springfield 104, Washington and Lee 73, Stevens 54, Buffalo State 19, Bowdoin 14, Carnegie Mellon 9, Transylvania 7, Christopher Newport 7, Loras 2, Middlebury 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:28:01 PM
Interesting that Sweet 16 side Stevens did not even make the cut. Granted they were over matched and did not have a great regular season but still were 13-7-2. In 2013, Williams made it to the Final 4 but had an equally unimpressive final record at 15-7-0 but they finished up ranked #8.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:28:01 PM
Interesting that Sweet 16 side Stevens did not even make the cut. Granted they were over matched and did not have a great regular season but still were 13-7-2. In 2013, Williams made it to the Final 4 but had an equally unimpressive final record at 15-7-0 but they finished up ranked #8.

I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on December 08, 2017, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

They likely looked at the NCAA semifinal as the better indicator, which UChicago controlled throughout and had their full complement of players, unlike the October matchup which did not feature Adeosun or Romero.
Also looking at body of work for the season, the Maroons played a harder schedule and also had a much tougher road to the Final Four. IMO the ranking is correct.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 09:02:56 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on December 08, 2017, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

They likely looked at the NCAA semifinal as the better indicator, which UChicago controlled throughout and had their full complement of players, unlike the October matchup which did not feature Adeosun or Romero.
Also looking at body of work for the season, the Maroons played a harder schedule and also had a much tougher road to the Final Four. IMO the ranking is correct.


yeah i'd have to agree that they def got it right. just do t think it's right in a way. you don't make a national final by accident. give them some respect. sheesh
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on December 08, 2017, 09:30:06 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 09:02:56 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on December 08, 2017, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

They likely looked at the NCAA semifinal as the better indicator, which UChicago controlled throughout and had their full complement of players, unlike the October matchup which did not feature Adeosun or Romero.
Also looking at body of work for the season, the Maroons played a harder schedule and also had a much tougher road to the Final Four. IMO the ranking is correct.


yeah i'd have to agree that they def got it right. just do t think it's right in a way. you don't make a national final by accident. give them some respect. sheesh

They were ranked third in the country.  Seems to me that's a lot of respect.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 10:16:50 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.



Funny how these "voters" take into account how the team played in a certain game to determine the final rankings. It would be nice if they did that all season instead of just the last few games of the year. I agree Chicago was the better team but since when do these voters(some not all) take into consideration how a team "looked" against another team. I would guess a lot of voters do not see more than a couple games a week during the season IF THAT...Seems a bit unfair to me and please do not give me a paragraph explaining how I do not know for sure who watches what games and how many they watch.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.


Frankly I really do not care about rankings all that much. Consistency in doing something I do care about. I never said they do not do their job or do not know what they are talking about. I just find it odd that a team goes 1-0-1 against their opponent and proceeds to advance to the NCAA Final while also having a better overall record yet finishes behind them in the polls. Your explanation was that because Chicago outshot North Park 20-5 and had a clear goal called back it was obvious that they were the better team and therefore deserved to be ranked ahead of North Park. My point to you was since when do these pollsters start looking at how a team played in a certain game to decide a ranking. I just do not buy that is what happens throughout the season and if it doesn't then why should it apply at the end of a season.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.

im going to go out on a limb here and say you are one of the ones who voted Chicago ahead of NPU...    you are very passionate about the NCAA it's cool to hve someone like that around here. but all we think is they screwed that one up a little. not the end of the world
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2017, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Exactly.  We had this discussion two years ago I think.  Some people seem to want to neuter the poll and make it little more than a summary of the the NCAA tournament as if they can't just go to the completed tournament bracket to find out who advanced how far.  First, that's not what a poll is, and two, if that's what you want, you have the NSCAA USC "poll".
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:49:20 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2017, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Exactly.  We had this discussion two years ago I think.  Some people seem to want to neuter the poll and make it little more than a summary of the the NCAA tournament as if they can't just go to the completed tournament bracket to find out who advanced how far.  First, that's not what a poll is, and two, if that's what you want, you have the NSCAA USC "poll".

I absolutely understand what you are and saying and I agree the tournament shouldn't determine your final ranking but the #1 and 2 spot should go to the two teams who battled all season to make it to that point. 3-25 can be determined however their hearts desire
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 09, 2017, 12:09:46 AM
I'm the only one who posts here who actually has skin in this game in terms of a rooting interest with regard to the two sides in question, and you know what? I'm fine with Chicago being placed ahead of North Park. I also would've been just as OK with it if it had been the other way around, with NPU being voted #2 and Chicago #3. You can make a good case either way.

I'm not at all put out by d3soccer.com's verdict. Perhaps I just don't get as worked up about polls as I used to. All that matters to me is that NPU had a magnificent year that went all the way to the final match of the season, and that, rather than a despondent air of letdown, there's a palpable feeling of excitement and expectation on campus that this was merely the beginning of an era in which the Vikings will be at a different level than they were before.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.


Frankly I really do not care about rankings all that much. Consistency in doing something I do care about. I never said they do not do their job or do not know what they are talking about. I just find it odd that a team goes 1-0-1 against their opponent and proceeds to advance to the NCAA Final while also having a better overall record yet finishes behind them in the polls. Your explanation was that because Chicago outshot North Park 20-5 and had a clear goal called back it was obvious that they were the better team and therefore deserved to be ranked ahead of North Park. My point to you was since when do these pollsters start looking at how a team played in a certain game to decide a ranking. I just do not buy that is what happens throughout the season and if it doesn't then why should it apply at the end of a season.

At least for the coaches on the panel, it would be perfectly natural if they had more time to watch the games in the tournament and see how teams play and vote based on a lot more than the scores/results.  During the season they have their own practices to plan and run and their own games to play. Not to mention, there are hundreds of games occurring midweek and again on the weekend, and for every game one gets to check in on, there's dozens of other simultaneous games involving potential Top 25 teams that cannot be watched even if there's streaming video. The tournament, and more so as it moves on to Sectionals and Final Four, presents an opportunity that does not exist throughout the regular season: (1) Most coaches' teams are eliminated from the tournament or didn't make the tournament, so they have a bit more time to really take in games other than their own, (2) there are fewer and fewer games, but each typically involving two teams of interest, and (3) the games all are being streamed live. So, yes, I think it's unavoidable that coaches would be able to do a better job of rating teams based on how they played in the tournament, not just on final scores, unlike for all the other weekly rankings leading up to the tournament.  It might be inconsistent, but it's a product of reality.

[Deleted second paragraph because in hindsight it was over the top and unnecessary and apparently has distracted form the my main point which is made in the first paragraph.]
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 12:59:38 AM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:49:20 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2017, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Exactly.  We had this discussion two years ago I think.  Some people seem to want to neuter the poll and make it little more than a summary of the the NCAA tournament as if they can't just go to the completed tournament bracket to find out who advanced how far.  First, that's not what a poll is, and two, if that's what you want, you have the NSCAA USC "poll".

I absolutely understand what you are and saying and I agree the tournament shouldn't determine your final ranking but the #1 and 2 spot should go to the two teams who battled all season to make it to that point. 3-25 can be determined however their hearts desire

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.  How many times have we all commented about some semifinal (any sport, any level of play) that that was the true final.  Heck, sometimes that can happen in the quarterfinals.  I think most of us can agree that the better team (no matter how we each determine that) doesn't always win.  I think we all believe upsets occur.  How many of us have commented on how cruel the soccer gods can be?  And that's why I firmly believe that the best team does not always even reach the final.  And since I firmly believe that, I don't think the No. 1 vote needs to go to the champion, nor always should go to the champion.  Sure, the champion gets the benefit of the doubt and if it's a close call, being the champion is a huge tie-breaker, but championships and rankings are two separate things.  The champions have their reward and their respect--they had their moment in the spotlight, they got to live the experience of winning the championship (and get to re-live it in their minds for the rest of their lives), they have the medals and trophy, they get to wear the T-shirts and rings, they get to be called champions for the rest of their lives, their name is etched in history and in the record books, they get to play the next season as defending champions (no one talks in terms of defending No. 1 ranked team). No ranking can top any of that and no ranking is needed to validate them as champions.  So why not let polls be what they by definition are: a collection of opinions.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 09, 2017, 01:36:08 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.


Frankly I really do not care about rankings all that much. Consistency in doing something I do care about. I never said they do not do their job or do not know what they are talking about. I just find it odd that a team goes 1-0-1 against their opponent and proceeds to advance to the NCAA Final while also having a better overall record yet finishes behind them in the polls. Your explanation was that because Chicago outshot North Park 20-5 and had a clear goal called back it was obvious that they were the better team and therefore deserved to be ranked ahead of North Park. My point to you was since when do these pollsters start looking at how a team played in a certain game to decide a ranking. I just do not buy that is what happens throughout the season and if it doesn't then why should it apply at the end of a season.

At least for the coaches on the panel, it would be perfectly natural if they had more time to watch the games in the tournament and see how teams play and vote based on a lot more than the scores/results.  During the season they have their own practices to plan and run and their own games to play. Not to mention, there are hundreds of games occurring midweek and again on the weekend, and for every game one gets to check in on, there's dozens of other simultaneous games involving potential Top 25 teams that cannot be watched even if there's streaming video. The tournament, and more so as it moves on to Sectionals and Final Four, presents an opportunity that does not exist throughout the regular season: (1) Most coaches' teams are eliminated from the tournament or didn't make the tournament, so they have a bit more time to really take in games other than their own, (2) there are fewer and fewer games, but each typically involving two teams of interest, and (3) the games all are being streamed live. So, yes, I think it's unavoidable that coaches would be able to do a better job of rating teams based on how they played in the tournament, not just on final scores, unlike for all the other weekly rankings leading up to the tournament.  It might be inconsistent, but it's a product of reality.

Mr. Right, you know the realities of Division III soccer and yet your comments seem to be at odds with those realities. Maybe some day when D-III soccer goes big time and there are several websites dedicated to it and dozens of full-time sports writers and columnists who cover it, then there can be a Top 25 panel made up of media members whose job it is to watch as many games as possible and to have a full grasp of the national landscape. And maybe there will be a cable channel dedicated to D-III sports with highlights and analysis of dozens of key midweek and weekends games readily available for all coaches to see so they can be more informed for their vote in a coaches poll.  Maybe someday there will be 25 Mr. Right wannabes who have the interest and time to watch dozens of games each week and can band together to start their own Top 25 poll which will produce the one true ranking each week.  In the meantime, maybe we can cut the coaches a little slack for voting based more on results than games watched during the season and then doing their best to take more into account in their vote for the final rankings.


This is the most asinine and unnecessary response. I understand your point and do understand the realities of D3 Soccer but to slam me for my addiction and knowledge of D3 Soccer on top of making your point only proves that I hit a small nerve that you feel every year to have to proclaim the D3soccer poll superior to the NSCAA poll.




Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 09, 2017, 01:36:08 AM
This is the most asinine and unnecessary response. I understand your point and do understand the realities of D3 Soccer but to slam me for my addiction and knowledge of D3 Soccer on top of making your point only proves that I hit a small nerve that you feel every year to have to proclaim the D3soccer poll superior to the NSCAA poll.

OK, I went over the top with the hyperbole and facetiousness to make a point.  And you are probably right that is was unnecessary.  However, I did not slam your knowledge and addiction to D-III soccer, at least that was not my intent and I apologize if that is how my post could be interpreted. In a niche such as D-III soccer, it's quite possible that at the moment you have the broadest and deepest knowledge of the D-III landscape. I respect that for what it is.  In fact, because of the highly knowledgeable fans on this message board, I think it would be great to have a fan's Top 25, but since I don't have the time to organize it, I've never suggested it—until now, I guess.

In a previous decade, I was addicted (OK, I still am to some extent, but family and work life no longer allows me to feed my addiction like I once could) and I had a healthy knowledge of the D-III landscape back then.  Of course, that was before games were being webcast, so there were much greater limitations to what you could learn and know from across the whole nation. But it was fair to think that I probably had as good or better a handle of the national scene than many of the voters for the Top 25, just as that is probably the case today for you and some other addicts (and I use the term endearingly) and super-fans on this message board. And back then, in both my shortsightedness and pride, I sometimes had unrealistic expectations of the voters and leveled unfair criticisms at them. I'm more understanding and less critical these days, while still having some issues/criticisms (e.g. do some voters make any reasonable attempt to take into account strength of schedule when comparing W-L-T records and ranking teams throughout the season?!?).

I simply thought your particular criticism—that how they voted in the final poll, though seemingly more in line with how you want them to vote, was still wrong because you adjudged it to be inconsistent with the "incorrect" way they voted during the regular season—was either not talking into account or was ignoring some of the potential reasons/explanations for a shift (what you characterize as an inconsistency) in their approach. I thought it fair to mention those reasons and explanations.  I'm not denying an inconsistency on the part of some voters, nor agreeing that one exists.  But I think it reasonable, in light of the realities, that some shift would occur, and that it would be for the benefit of a better final ranking.

As to the D3soccer.com poll vs. NSCAA poll, I don't remember making any proclamations of superiority, now or on any kind of annual basis (correct me, if my memory is failing me that badly).  Unless making the simple observation that those who prefer the final rankings to reflect NCAA tournament finish will be more satisfied with the NSCAA rankings than the D3soccer.com rankings is considered a proclamation of superiority.  I prefer the D3soccer.com approach over the NSCAA's rigid framework that they largely though not strictly adhere to during the regular season and their approximate, though not strict, reflection of NCAA tournament advancement in their final rankings. Most years, somewhere along the way some discussion of the rankings comes up where it seems clear that someone hasn't yet heard or discovered how the NSCAA national rankings work, and if no one else steps up to help enlighten that person, I share that insight. From there, each person can reach their own conclusions.  I think D3soccer.com's approach gives it a better chance than the NSCAA to do an accurate ranking, but it's still only as good as its voters and I rarely think D3soccer.com has nailed the rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ryan Harmanis on December 09, 2017, 10:39:55 AM
Figured I'd briefly chime in on the NPU-Chicago rankings debate.

I put NPU second, Chicago third. I think Chicago is better - the semifinal was more than just one team having an off-day, Chicago was clearly better. If that had been their only game I'd have put Chicago second. If NPU had been 12-5-4 and were a Cinderella maybe I'd have put Chicago second. But, to me, at some point results overtake who I think is better when it comes to rankings. NPU went 1-0-1 against Chicago and never conceded a goal, and they went 20-2-2 overall. And the first game between Chicago and NPU was, at a minimum, even. So, with little to choose between the teams on resume, and two full games between the two, I went with NPU.

I think either position is defensible. I can relate to being the better team and losing. 3/4 of my NCAA trips ended in games where we were easily the better team. But that's part of the sport. I would guess we'd have won a rematch handily each time, but if you get a second shot and still can't do it, hard to have too many complaints about being ranked behind that team. Put concretely, if Team X is clearly better than Team Y, then they should win at least one out of two games against them. We've all picked a sport where you don't have the luxury of a seven-game series.

Interesting debate, though, and reflects that everyone can view rankings differently. I try to balance which teams I think are better/best with which teams deserve higher rankings based on their body of work. Given that we work with limited information, that's not always possible.

The only national champion since I've been involved that I would not have voted No. 1 overall was Middlebury 2007. I would have put Trinity No. 1.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 09, 2017, 11:26:54 AM
For me this last page and a half is a classic example of how a back and forth on the internet can go astray based on one or two misunderstandings that then spiral (and I've been as guilty as anyone in this regard in the past).  In other words, it's sometimes hard to determine when there is a real difference of opinion (I've had plenty of those also) versus getting caught up in misunderstandings.

First of all, I'm not sure anyone cares about the polls or their outcome as much as taking the trouble to post about it suggests.  In the big picture, I don't care at all who is ranked #2 or #3.  That said, I also was surprised, and I say that as someone (like most here perhaps) who does believe Chicago was "better" than NPU.  Since I've been following, the final polls (both) generally have mirrored the Final Four outcomes with maybe the 4th team in the D3 poll getting downgraded to #5 or #6 but the finalists usually being #1 and #2.  The one thing nobody mentioned is that NPU climbed the highest in the D3 poll, so maybe that was a factor.

I do not buy that most voters put Chicago ahead because they "looked better" in the national semi.  Of course soccer may be the only sport where we have this odd thing about not losing but also not advancing (ties), so maybe that factors in, but I can't think of another sport where we say UCLA looked better in that Final Four semi but lost to UK and so UCLA ends up ranked higher.  Anyway, I don't think there is some difference between not seeing enough games during the season versus having more observation time in the tournament.  Just doesn't make sense, especially without getting into accounting for things like good or bad draws.  Did any voters take into account how great JCU looked in Round 1, for example?  I don't expect that from voters during the season or at the end of the season. 

I don't think a fan poll would address any of this either.  As I said, I personally think Chicago was better but as a poll voter, I would have voted NPU #2.

I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.  Sometimes I think there is a bit of tension between the formal journalistic offerings on the site (which almost without fail are superb) and the informal but often regular contributions from persons like Mr.Right (and some others).  Both make the site what it is and something that so many of us truly enjoy.  And in this particular year Mr.Right's contribution (talking about the columns/articles and message board only) was as large and appreciated as anyone's this side of Mr. Blooter.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 12:49:09 PM
It seems like most on here are admitting to be of the opinion that Chicago is "better" but also saying they would vote NPU in at No. 2 anyway.  And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to have their own idea of what a ranking is meant to convey or represent.  But if the ranking is based on an opinion poll and most of us are of the opinion that Chicago is "better", than is there any good reason to (a) not expect a majority of the voters to also share the opinion that Chicago is "better" and to (b) not expect voters to vote their opinion in an opinion poll?

I too question how much voters' approach really changed from the regular season to the final poll, but if there was any shift or change for any of them, I think it can easily be explained by the realities I pointed out, not by ill motives or incompetence that merit criticism.  Just my opinion.  Those who think it merits criticism are free to do so--never said they weren't--I just presented a differring perspective.

For me, John Carroll not being ranked higher was a little surprising, but probably shouldn't have been.  There was a lot of talk on here among us fans about how good they had looked and how unfair it was that they had to face another Final Four contender in the second round already when that kind of match-up shouldn't occur before the Sweet 16 at the earliest and was maybe better suited for an Elite 8 match.  The voters weren't part of those conversations as far as I know, so I shouldn't have assumed that the small sample size on this board could be predictive of how the voters would see things.  Nevertheless, I think John Carroll may have been short-changed a little bit due to the tendency to rank teams along the general lines of tournament advancement.

There are plenty of reasons (some stronger than others, and some maybe not fair or valid) for voters to have put Chicago ahead of North Park.  And how Chicago "looked better" in the semifinal could certainly be one of them for those who watched the game.  I didn't see the regular season game between the two teams, but I did see the semifinal and Chicago was very impressive apart from not finding the back of the net more than the one time that the linesman completely got it wrong on the offside call.  So if my opinion of Chicago was bolstered by the semifinal, I have no reason to think the same couldn't be the case for Top 25 voters.

And yes, I got carried away with my post and have deleted the part that went over the top and distracted from the main point I was trying to make.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on December 09, 2017, 01:51:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.

im going to go out on a limb here and say you are one of the ones who voted Chicago ahead of NPU...    you are very passionate about the NCAA it's cool to hve someone like that around here. but all we think is they screwed that one up a little. not the end of the world

I can unequivocally and authoritatively state that Mr. Dave McHugh is not a member of the D3soccer.com men's or women's Top 25 panels.   However, given the clear demonstration of his reason, level-headedness, and grasp on reality, maybe we should consider inviting him back.  :D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on December 09, 2017, 02:38:59 PM
With regard to the D3soccer.com Top 25 poll and voters, we have never given our voters s specific set of criteria to follow or apply at any time of the season (regular season or final poll).  We ask them to use their own good judgement and discernment, to make their own considerations, and vote their opinion. We do encourage them to take strength-of-schedule into account, but we do not suggest (or discourage) consulting any specific SOS computations (e.g. NCAA, Bennett/Hero Sports, Massey Ratings)(I  personally think each of them has their flaws, but each also probably has its merits.) We suggest two questions for them to ask themselves while recognizing there are many other considerations and ways of comparing teams and completing one's ballot: (1) If these teams played in the next few days, all things being equal and neutral, who in your judgement is more likely to win? (2) If these teams played a series of ten games, who in your judgement is more likely to win more often?

Specifically with regard to the final poll after the NCAA Tournament, we ask our voters to judge teams on their full body of work. We clearly communicate to them that we are not interested in a final ranking that merely reflects the teams' advancement and finish in the NCAA tournament. The tournament matches are part of teams' full body of work, and we leave it up to each voter to decide to what extent if at all he/she gives extra weight to tournament matches. We let them know that they should feel free
• to consider a team who picked up a rare tie or loss (maybe even their only one of the season) at the "wrong" time in the tournament to be better than a team who advanced further than them but on the whole did not have as good a season,
• to consider the bracketing, recognizing that some teams were dealt tougher match-ups in the early rounds and a tougher path to the final,
• to consider an upset to be just that--the better team being beaten by a inferior team on that day, and 
• even to cast a No. 1 vote for a team other than the NCAA champion.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 09, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.  Sometimes I think there is a bit of tension between the formal journalistic offerings on the site (which almost without fail are superb) and the informal but often regular contributions from persons like Mr.Right (and some others).  Both make the site what it is and something that so many of us truly enjoy.  And in this particular year Mr.Right's contribution (talking about the columns/articles and message board only) was as large and appreciated as anyone's this side of Mr. Blooter.

I will 100% give Mr Right the credit he deserves this year. we don't agree often but that's what makes it great. and whoever said something about how words get twisted on here is so right. I am also surprised this topic is this popular. everyone and every player knows rankns are just rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 09, 2017, 05:20:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 09, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.

While I'm not going to offer a full rebuttal to your claim, because I don't really focus upon all of the New England and NY/PA chatter that goes on here in a decidedly northeastern-centric set of soccer chatrooms, I do have to point out that Mr. Right said, subsequent to NPU's win at Chicago, that the Vikings would lose a match within the next two weeks -- and NPU then went on to win eight straight matches after beating the Maroons. He also had North Park going out in the second round of the tourney (i.e., the first time that they set foot on the pitch following their first-round bye) to UW-Platteville -- and NPU eviscerated the Pioneers in that second-round match, 6-1. He also had NPU as a 35-1 pick in the Final Four, which I think we can all agree looks pretty silly in retrospect.

Just offering a little counterpoint from the NPU point of view.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Laserpen123 on December 09, 2017, 10:40:08 PM
Where was the Final Four All-tournament team posted? Chicago mentioned in their recap that Koh and Abedian were on the team, but can't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 10, 2017, 10:54:01 AM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on December 09, 2017, 01:51:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:28:20 PM

im going to go out on a limb here and say you are one of the ones who voted Chicago ahead of NPU...    you are very passionate about the NCAA it's cool to hve someone like that around here. but all we think is they screwed that one up a little. not the end of the world

I can unequivocally and authoritatively state that Mr. Dave McHugh is not a member of the D3soccer.com men's or women's Top 25 panels.   However, given the clear demonstration of his reason, level-headedness, and grasp on reality, maybe we should consider inviting him back.  :D

I hadn't had a chance to get back to this "discussion" since I've been a bit busy with basketball and football seasons - this hobby can be a bitch sometimes LOL - but, to confirm what Christian said, I am not a voter in the D3soccer poll. I have been a voter in the D3hoops MBB poll for a number of years, voted in the D3soccer poll one or two seasons awhile back (can't remember when exactly LOL), and voted on other polls in my tenure.

You can knock what I say all you want, but my point of view will remain especially being a voter and talking to voters around the country in several polls. Assumptions by those who don't vote result in a range of emotions/reactions and in this case... it is SMH. :)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 10, 2017, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 09, 2017, 11:26:54 AM
For me this last page and a half is a classic example of how a back and forth on the internet can go astray based on one or two misunderstandings that then spiral (and I've been as guilty as anyone in this regard in the past).  In other words, it's sometimes hard to determine when there is a real difference of opinion (I've had plenty of those also) versus getting caught up in misunderstandings.

First of all, I'm not sure anyone cares about the polls or their outcome as much as taking the trouble to post about it suggests.  In the big picture, I don't care at all who is ranked #2 or #3.  That said, I also was surprised, and I say that as someone (like most here perhaps) who does believe Chicago was "better" than NPU.  Since I've been following, the final polls (both) generally have mirrored the Final Four outcomes with maybe the 4th team in the D3 poll getting downgraded to #5 or #6 but the finalists usually being #1 and #2.  The one thing nobody mentioned is that NPU climbed the highest in the D3 poll, so maybe that was a factor.

I do not buy that most voters put Chicago ahead because they "looked better" in the national semi.  Of course soccer may be the only sport where we have this odd thing about not losing but also not advancing (ties), so maybe that factors in, but I can't think of another sport where we say UCLA looked better in that Final Four semi but lost to UK and so UCLA ends up ranked higher.  Anyway, I don't think there is some difference between not seeing enough games during the season versus having more observation time in the tournament.  Just doesn't make sense, especially without getting into accounting for things like good or bad draws.  Did any voters take into account how great JCU looked in Round 1, for example?  I don't expect that from voters during the season or at the end of the season. 

I don't think a fan poll would address any of this either.  As I said, I personally think Chicago was better but as a poll voter, I would have voted NPU #2.

I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.  Sometimes I think there is a bit of tension between the formal journalistic offerings on the site (which almost without fail are superb) and the informal but often regular contributions from persons like Mr.Right (and some others).  Both make the site what it is and something that so many of us truly enjoy.  And in this particular year Mr.Right's contribution (talking about the columns/articles and message board only) was as large and appreciated as anyone's this side of Mr. Blooter.


Thank you I appreciate the backup..You have never been shy about giving opinions good and bad about the site and that is much appreciated. Their is a little tension for sure between us posters and the official writers / staff for whatever reason. To me the tension is pretty rare and not really a big deal but I would be curious to know why it does sometimes exist. Personally, I am not afraid to criticize the site or opinions of said writers when necessary and usually not very often and neither are you so maybe that has a little to do with it. I do appreciate their work because it is a great site and I love my role of being able to post when I want about what I want without limitations or deadlines. You could ask my boss and he would flat out say how bad I am with deadlines and commitments so I enjoy the role i have. I also do appreciate the role that the official writers have and the back office staff because without them we would not have a site and I know how hard it is to commit to something without getting much if anything in return. Also, yes I have to agree I have really been well behaved this year and have really tried to mellow out a bit. Thank you for noticing.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 10, 2017, 12:42:39 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 09, 2017, 01:36:08 AM
This is the most asinine and unnecessary response. I understand your point and do understand the realities of D3 Soccer but to slam me for my addiction and knowledge of D3 Soccer on top of making your point only proves that I hit a small nerve that you feel every year to have to proclaim the D3soccer poll superior to the NSCAA poll.

OK, I went over the top with the hyperbole and facetiousness to make a point.  And you are probably right that is was unnecessary.  However, I did not slam your knowledge and addiction to D-III soccer, at least that was not my intent and I apologize if that is how my post could be interpreted. In a niche such as D-III soccer, it's quite possible that at the moment you have the broadest and deepest knowledge of the D-III landscape. I respect that for what it is.  In fact, because of the highly knowledgeable fans on this message board, I think it would be great to have a fan's Top 25, but since I don't have the time to organize it, I've never suggested it—until now, I guess.

In a previous decade, I was addicted (OK, I still am to some extent, but family and work life no longer allows me to feed my addiction like I once could) and I had a healthy knowledge of the D-III landscape back then.  Of course, that was before games were being webcast, so there were much greater limitations to what you could learn and know from across the whole nation. But it was fair to think that I probably had as good or better a handle of the national scene than many of the voters for the Top 25, just as that is probably the case today for you and some other addicts (and I use the term endearingly) and super-fans on this message board. And back then, in both my shortsightedness and pride, I sometimes had unrealistic expectations of the voters and leveled unfair criticisms at them. I'm more understanding and less critical these days, while still having some issues/criticisms (e.g. do some voters make any reasonable attempt to take into account strength of schedule when comparing W-L-T records and ranking teams throughout the season?!?).

I simply thought your particular criticism—that how they voted in the final poll, though seemingly more in line with how you want them to vote, was still wrong because you adjudged it to be inconsistent with the "incorrect" way they voted during the regular season—was either not talking into account or was ignoring some of the potential reasons/explanations for a shift (what you characterize as an inconsistency) in their approach. I thought it fair to mention those reasons and explanations.  I'm not denying an inconsistency on the part of some voters, nor agreeing that one exists.  But I think it reasonable, in light of the realities, that some shift would occur, and that it would be for the benefit of a better final ranking.

As to the D3soccer.com poll vs. NSCAA poll, I don't remember making any proclamations of superiority, now or on any kind of annual basis (correct me, if my memory is failing me that badly).  Unless making the simple observation that those who prefer the final rankings to reflect NCAA tournament finish will be more satisfied with the NSCAA rankings than the D3soccer.com rankings is considered a proclamation of superiority.  I prefer the D3soccer.com approach over the NSCAA's rigid framework that they largely though not strictly adhere to during the regular season and their approximate, though not strict, reflection of NCAA tournament advancement in their final rankings. Most years, somewhere along the way some discussion of the rankings comes up where it seems clear that someone hasn't yet heard or discovered how the NSCAA national rankings work, and if no one else steps up to help enlighten that person, I share that insight. From there, each person can reach their own conclusions.  I think D3soccer.com's approach gives it a better chance than the NSCAA to do an accurate ranking, but it's still only as good as its voters and I rarely think D3soccer.com has nailed the rankings.


There was no need to delete your original post. I have broad shoulders and can take criticism. I certainly dish it out enough. I just was a bit perplexed at your almost personal attack on top of making your point. Your point has merit yet i still believe mine does as well. That is fine and we can agree to disagree on this one.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 10, 2017, 12:45:00 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 09, 2017, 05:20:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 09, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.

While I'm not going to offer a full rebuttal to your claim, because I don't really focus upon all of the New England and NY/PA chatter that goes on here in a decidedly northeastern-centric set of soccer chatrooms, I do have to point out that Mr. Right said, subsequent to NPU's win at Chicago, that the Vikings would lose a match within the next two weeks -- and NPU then went on to win eight straight matches after beating the Maroons. He also had North Park going out in the second round of the tourney (i.e., the first time that they set foot on the pitch following their first-round bye) to UW-Platteville -- and NPU eviscerated the Pioneers in that second-round match, 6-1. He also had NPU as a 35-1 pick in the Final Four, which I think we can all agree looks pretty silly in retrospect.

Just offering a little counterpoint from the NPU point of view.


I know it is amazing that sometimes I can be wrong in my predictions. I was purely not sold at all on North Park and I was wrong. I can admit when I am wrong.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 09, 2017, 05:20:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 09, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.

While I'm not going to offer a full rebuttal to your claim, because I don't really focus upon all of the New England and NY/PA chatter that goes on here in a decidedly northeastern-centric set of soccer chatrooms, I do have to point out that Mr. Right said, subsequent to NPU's win at Chicago, that the Vikings would lose a match within the next two weeks -- and NPU then went on to win eight straight matches after beating the Maroons. He also had North Park going out in the second round of the tourney (i.e., the first time that they set foot on the pitch following their first-round bye) to UW-Platteville -- and NPU eviscerated the Pioneers in that second-round match, 6-1. He also had NPU as a 35-1 pick in the Final Four, which I think we can all agree looks pretty silly in retrospect.

Just offering a little counterpoint from the NPU point of view.

I think occasionally posters react and "predict" based on the kind of attitude they they perceive other posters taking, especially posters of the "homerism" type, which of course describes almost all of us.  You have been a formidable poster over the past few weeks, which is great and an overall plus for the site but also inevitably creates exposure to potential reactions.  You and I had our own thing about Calvin's seeding, and as far as I can tell, we both strongly believe we proved ourselves right.  Humor helps, and let's concede that all of us take ourselves a little more seriously during the tournament.  At any rate, I would assume you would agree that Mr.RIght's reviews of the NESCAC schools looking ahead to next year were very well done (or at least you should know that his predictions relative to NPU were pretty ancillary to my overall point).

As for Northeast-centrism, I'm glad you raised that.  I've had the same thought before, which can leave the impression that the site skews that way.  There's nothing wrong with high participation levels.  The answer would be to get more PacWest, Trinity TX, Chicago and Michigan area, some CNU fans, ODAC fanatics, etc in the mix.  The internet work just as well across most of the country as it does in the Northeast corridor.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Saint of Old on December 10, 2017, 05:06:45 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 09, 2017, 05:20:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 09, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.

While I'm not going to offer a full rebuttal to your claim, because I don't really focus upon all of the New England and NY/PA chatter that goes on here in a decidedly northeastern-centric set of soccer chatrooms, I do have to point out that Mr. Right said, subsequent to NPU's win at Chicago, that the Vikings would lose a match within the next two weeks -- and NPU then went on to win eight straight matches after beating the Maroons. He also had North Park going out in the second round of the tourney (i.e., the first time that they set foot on the pitch following their first-round bye) to UW-Platteville -- and NPU eviscerated the Pioneers in that second-round match, 6-1. He also had NPU as a 35-1 pick in the Final Four, which I think we can all agree looks pretty silly in retrospect.

Just offering a little counterpoint from the NPU point of view.

I think occasionally posters react and "predict" based on the kind of attitude they they perceive other posters taking, especially posters of the "homerism" type, which of course describes almost all of us.  You have been a formidable poster over the past few weeks, which is great and an overall plus for the site but also inevitably creates exposure to potential reactions.  You and I had our own thing about Calvin's seeding, and as far as I can tell, we both strongly believe we proved ourselves right.  Humor helps, and let's concede that all of us take ourselves a little more seriously during the tournament.  At any rate, I would assume you would agree that Mr.RIght's reviews of the NESCAC schools looking ahead to next year were very well done (or at least you should know that his predictions relative to NPU were pretty ancillary to my overall point).

As for Northeast-centrism, I'm glad you raised that.  I've had the same thought before, which can leave the impression that the site skews that way.  There's nothing wrong with high participation levels.  The answer would be to get more PacWest, Trinity TX, Chicago and Michigan area, some CNU fans, ODAC fanatics, etc in the mix.  The internet work just as well across most of the country as it does in the Northeast corridor.

I agree.
Mr. Right is a fraud.
Who among us didn't know that NPU would of coarse make the finals and score first against Messiah.
We all knew that Brandies would beat Tufts and spoil a Messiah v. Tufts rematch.
Finally Mr. Right is always carrying on about how great of a team Williams are!!! What a homer :)

In all seriousness though, if any of us are batting a .333 on here we are perhaps the leading prophets on this sight.
I for one will say I love Mr. R's passion and love for d3 soccer over all as I do several other posters on here.
It really feels like a d3 family, regardless of which specific team us has beens and parents/fans cheer for.
I will miss all the fun comments and outlandish predictions on this board.

We always have next season.

P.S.
Apologies to many other regions.
I for one know how good the Midwest is, not many bigger Wheaton fans than myself.Texas brings it year in year out and are champions, and what can you say about PA, with Lycoming, back in the mix and the crusaders champs again.

Cant wait till next year!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 10, 2017, 09:52:14 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 10, 2017, 12:45:00 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 09, 2017, 05:20:41 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 09, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.

While I'm not going to offer a full rebuttal to your claim, because I don't really focus upon all of the New England and NY/PA chatter that goes on here in a decidedly northeastern-centric set of soccer chatrooms, I do have to point out that Mr. Right said, subsequent to NPU's win at Chicago, that the Vikings would lose a match within the next two weeks -- and NPU then went on to win eight straight matches after beating the Maroons. He also had North Park going out in the second round of the tourney (i.e., the first time that they set foot on the pitch following their first-round bye) to UW-Platteville -- and NPU eviscerated the Pioneers in that second-round match, 6-1. He also had NPU as a 35-1 pick in the Final Four, which I think we can all agree looks pretty silly in retrospect.

Just offering a little counterpoint from the NPU point of view.


I know it is amazing that sometimes I can be wrong in my predictions. I was purely not sold at all on North Park and I was wrong. I can admit when I am wrong.

I appreciate that! I respect your devotion to, and knowledge of, D3 soccer.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PM
I think occasionally posters react and "predict" based on the kind of attitude they they perceive other posters taking, especially posters of the "homerism" type, which of course describes almost all of us.

Oh, I freely admit that I bleed royal blue and gold -- it's pretty obvious -- but at the same time I don't claim to have the extensive knowledge of the broader D3 soccer landscape that others who post here have, so I've tried to restrain my comments to sides that I've seen firsthand. And I think that I can be pretty objective, all things considered -- f'rinstance, I was very upfront in stating that Chicago thoroughly outplayed NPU in the semifinal, and I never attempted to rebut the consensus that the Vikings had a comparatively easy road to the Final Four (it wasn't a cakewalk, though; St. Thomas is another outstanding midwestern program that I sense is underrated on these boards).

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PMYou have been a formidable poster over the past few weeks, which is great and an overall plus for the site but also inevitably creates exposure to potential reactions.

Understood. As you can probably tell from my number of posts, I've posted on d3boards.com since it began 20 years ago, although my contributions in the realm of soccer have been limited to the CCIW board for the most part until this season. I'm as familiar with the conversational dynamics here as is anybody.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PMYou and I had our own thing about Calvin's seeding, and as far as I can tell, we both strongly believe we proved ourselves right.  Humor helps, and let's concede that all of us take ourselves a little more seriously during the tournament.

I agree with you completely, but, at the same time, please try to see where I'm coming from on this. NPU is the new kid on the block as far as national attention goes, and with such familiar names as Messiah, Brandeis, Tufts, Stevens, Calvin, and Amherst getting into the latter rounds it was inevitable that the Vikings were going to be overlooked by a lot of people. That situation lent itself to a certain amount of zealousness on the part of the North Park faithful, me included.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PMAt any rate, I would assume you would agree that Mr.RIght's reviews of the NESCAC schools looking ahead to next year were very well done (or at least you should know that his predictions relative to NPU were pretty ancillary to my overall point).

I haven't read them, but I'll certainly take your word for it. He obviously has a wealth of knowledge about D3 soccer in New England.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 10, 2017, 03:49:22 PMAs for Northeast-centrism, I'm glad you raised that.  I've had the same thought before, which can leave the impression that the site skews that way.  There's nothing wrong with high participation levels.  The answer would be to get more PacWest, Trinity TX, Chicago and Michigan area, some CNU fans, ODAC fanatics, etc in the mix.  The internet work just as well across most of the country as it does in the Northeast corridor.

It is what it is. You can't force people to participate on the site. As great as it would be if every sport -- not just soccer -- had active posters in every room and for every conference, it just doesn't work out that way. The CCIW, for instance, has the busiest and most-trafficked room in men's basketball on d3boards.com, and the CCIW's football room gets very heavy participation and readership as well ... but for soccer and baseball the CCIW rooms don't get a lot of reads, and you can usually count the number of active posters in those rooms on one hand.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 11, 2017, 09:32:04 AM
Mr. Sager, well replied....as expected.

My main point about comments regarding heavy Northeast involvement is that it's not the fault of the Northeast posters who participate that more people don't participate from other areas (i.e. the board isn't intentionally Northeast heavy).  Interesting to hear that there is broader appear and/or differences for other sports.  I wonder why there is a difference.  Like, how come there isn't a Mr.Right or PaulNewman for Whitworth or Dominican or Christopher Newport?  Even in the Northeast, the fan base is pretty hit or miss.  There are some strong " Mid-Atlantic" and Jersey posters but not really a posting superfan specifically for recently very relevant programs like F&M, Haverford, Dickinson or even in crazed New England for schools like Wheaton (MA), MIT, Babson, WPI, etc except for generalized overflow interest from fans like blooter and Mr.Right who maintain an interest in what's happening across the whole region.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on December 11, 2017, 10:36:19 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 11, 2017, 09:32:04 AM
Mr. Sager, well replied....as expected.

My main point about comments regarding heavy Northeast involvement is that it's not the fault of the Northeast posters who participate that more people don't participate from other areas (i.e. the board isn't intentionally Northeast heavy).  Interesting to hear that there is broader appear and/or differences for other sports.  I wonder why there is a difference.  Like, how come there isn't a Mr.Right or PaulNewman for Whitworth or Dominican or Christopher Newport?  Even in the Northeast, the fan base is pretty hit or miss.  There are some strong " Mid-Atlantic" and Jersey posters but not really a posting superfan specifically for recently very relevant programs like F&M, Haverford, Dickinson or even in crazed New England for schools like Wheaton (MA), MIT, Babson, WPI, etc except for generalized overflow interest from fans like blooter and Mr.Right who maintain an interest in what's happening across the whole region.

Yeah, I've always wondered whether there are Babson/MIT/Wheaton (MA) players/alums/fans who read these boards but don't post -- I'm sure there are. It's very much a hit-or-miss kind of thing as far as which programs have fans who are active, and by that I mean posting regularly. I would certainly like to hear the perspectives from those folks, as well as those from outside the Northeast.

As for regional focus, I do keep up a bit with the Midwest and South UAA schools, and I've come to like watching heavyweights like Calvin and Messiah when I can for their style of play, but there are certainly huge gaps in my knowledge as far as teams outside of the Northeast region go (and teams in it, to be sure!).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 01:12:49 PM
The soccer boards on d3boards.com simply don't have that much traffic. That's why there's so many gaps in terms of fan coverage.

As of this moment, here's the number of posts in each of the five men's sports that have dedicated posting sections:

732,074 for football
394,285 for basketball
  68,576 for baseball
  34,706 for soccer
    1,708 for hockey
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PM
Was just commenting on a Brandeis post in the UAA thread and made me realize the quality of the opponents they face in their conference. I looked at this year's standings as I don't get to follow the UAA as much as I hope and saw NYU at the bottom. After looking at their UAA performance in recent years, I was shocked. NYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team? It made me think of University of Chicago in the sense that they're both in the middle of a big city with rigorous academics. NYU's campus is in Manhattan and I can't imagine they practice there, simply not enough space. Is that a contributing factor that might turn recruits off? I really hope it's not because they have a woman coach, as Kim Wyant is a largely decorated women's soccer figure. I know they made the Final 4 in the mid-late 2000's but ever since then, it seems like they have been underperforming. I'm sure someone has more knowledge about the program and I would appreciate it if they could share it, because I was completely surprised that they were not consistently at the top of the standings with the attractiveness of the university.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on December 11, 2017, 03:27:54 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PM
Was just commenting on a Brandeis post in the UAA thread and made me realize the quality of the opponents they face in their conference. I looked at this year's standings as I don't get to follow the UAA as much as I hope and saw NYU at the bottom. After looking at their UAA performance in recent years, I was shocked. NYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team? It made me think of University of Chicago in the sense that they're both in the middle of a big city with rigorous academics. NYU's campus is in Manhattan and I can't imagine they practice there, simply not enough space. Is that a contributing factor that might turn recruits off? I really hope it's not because they have a woman coach, as Kim Wyant is a largely decorated women's soccer figure. I know they made the Final 4 in the mid-late 2000's but ever since then, it seems like they have been underperforming. I'm sure someone has more knowledge about the program and I would appreciate it if they could share it, because I was completely surprised that they were not consistently at the top of the standings with the attractiveness of the university.

If I had to list reasons why recruits would not want to go to NYU, there are a couple of them.

1. The practices: like you said, they don't have room to practice. I believe they practice at the Manhattan Jasper's facility, which is a long way from campus. This is also where they play their home games, and they usually take a 45 min subway ride to get there. This in itself, having to commute 1.5 hours each day at such a rigorous school must not be fun at all. Better get used to studying on the train.
2. The school. A school like that does not get a lot of support from students. Just like at all the other UAA schools, there is a bit of a divide between the student athletes and the students. At Brandeis, its tough to get students to walk down the hill on a Friday night to watch the ranked men's team play, imagine trying to get them to drive 45 minutes for a home game.
3. The coach. Like you said, its unfortunate, but there are a lot of people who may not want to play for a woman coach. Add in their recent record, and there isn't really a reason why soccer should be on your top 5 reasons of going to NYU. Students who go there would go there for studies first and foremost, and then have soccer as a sort of extra curricular.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on December 11, 2017, 03:42:20 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 01:12:49 PM
The soccer boards on d3boards.com simply don't have that much traffic. That's why there's so many gaps in terms of fan coverage.

As of this moment, here's the number of posts in each of the five men's sports that have dedicated posting sections:

732,074 for football
394,285 for basketball
  68,576 for baseball
  34,706 for soccer
    1,708 for hockey

How long has each board been active?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PMNYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:57:19 PM
Quote from: NEPAFAN on December 11, 2017, 03:42:20 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 01:12:49 PM
The soccer boards on d3boards.com simply don't have that much traffic. That's why there's so many gaps in terms of fan coverage.

As of this moment, here's the number of posts in each of the five men's sports that have dedicated posting sections:

732,074 for football
394,285 for basketball
  68,576 for baseball
  34,706 for soccer
    1,708 for hockey

How long has each board been active?

Football since 1998*
Basketball since 1998*
Baseball since the first half of the '00s* (Pat Coleman would probably know the exact year)
Soccer since 2010
Hockey since 2011

*The d3boards.com format changed in 2005, so the archives only go back that far. In other words, football, basketball, and baseball only have a five-year head start on soccer as far as posting totals are concerned.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 11, 2017, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PMNYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.

I would agree with your overall point with one caveat.  Among academically very competitive schools with low to very low admit rates I would argue that size does matter.  A UAA with 5000-6000 students has more leeway in terms of number of recruits and stretching a little (if they want to) than a Haverford with just 1200 students.  The selectivity also limits the pool of potential recruits.

As an aside I'm sensing that there is a trend towards these mid-sized elite schools versus their LAC counterparts, which is not entirely unrelated to the current popularity of a school like Tufts which fits the UAA profile more than the NESCAC one.

As for NYU, I think that was a legit question, if for no other reason than the opportunity to study and play in NYC.  Aside from what already was noted, the costs of NYU (the school itself) + the city are astronomical.  And NYU is notoriously awful with aid.  One of my kids was dying to go to NYU and got in, but they offered us $1000 in aid so she picked the much more generous Univ of Rochester. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 04:24:48 PM
UAA and NESCAC rosters are exactly the same size on average (28.5 players), so it doesn't appear that UAA programs have more recruiting slots available than do their NESCAC counterparts.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 04:45:09 PM
Quote from: rolldeisroll on December 11, 2017, 03:27:54 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PM
Was just commenting on a Brandeis post in the UAA thread and made me realize the quality of the opponents they face in their conference. I looked at this year's standings as I don't get to follow the UAA as much as I hope and saw NYU at the bottom. After looking at their UAA performance in recent years, I was shocked. NYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team? It made me think of University of Chicago in the sense that they're both in the middle of a big city with rigorous academics. NYU's campus is in Manhattan and I can't imagine they practice there, simply not enough space. Is that a contributing factor that might turn recruits off? I really hope it's not because they have a woman coach, as Kim Wyant is a largely decorated women's soccer figure. I know they made the Final 4 in the mid-late 2000's but ever since then, it seems like they have been underperforming. I'm sure someone has more knowledge about the program and I would appreciate it if they could share it, because I was completely surprised that they were not consistently at the top of the standings with the attractiveness of the university.

If I had to list reasons why recruits would not want to go to NYU, there are a couple of them.

1. The practices: like you said, they don't have room to practice. I believe they practice at the Manhattan Jasper's facility, which is a long way from campus. This is also where they play their home games, and they usually take a 45 min subway ride to get there. This in itself, having to commute 1.5 hours each day at such a rigorous school must not be fun at all. Better get used to studying on the train.
2. The school. A school like that does not get a lot of support from students. Just like at all the other UAA schools, there is a bit of a divide between the student athletes and the students. At Brandeis, its tough to get students to walk down the hill on a Friday night to watch the ranked men's team play, imagine trying to get them to drive 45 minutes for a home game.
3. The coach. Like you said, its unfortunate, but there are a lot of people who may not want to play for a woman coach. Add in their recent record, and there isn't really a reason why soccer should be on your top 5 reasons of going to NYU. Students who go there would go there for studies first and foremost, and then have soccer as a sort of extra curricular.


I would have to totally agree. I think the bigger problem of the three would be the commuting every day if in fact that is what they do. I know they play their home games there but did not realize they also practiced there as well. That has got to be a massive inconvenience. To bad they couldn't do what St.John's does and put a field on top of a building on campus. I would imagine they have exhausted that option but just cannot make it work for whatever reason.

Roster size has nothing to do with it. With 26,000 Undergrads compared to Brandeis 3700 is a massive difference. As a coach you would have more "slots" or options as admissions would allow WAY more "tips"I would imagine. So you should be able to take more risks on players than say a Brandeis. Still I am not all familiar with NYU admissions and it is quite possible that they do not care about athletics and give coaches no more options than any other school.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
This story goes back 20+ years at this point, so calling it stale is being generous. However, in my senior class in h.s. the number 15 student, a close friend with a bunch of non-athletic extra-curriculars and a ridiculous SAT score, was denied a spot at Johns Hopkins. The number 65 student in our class, an all-conference football player, was offered and accepted a slot at JHU. He was a good student, a nice guy, a friend, but he wasn't her caliber academically and didn't have her test scores.

Huge schools like the UAA schools and, in this case JHU, can slide an athlete through that way. It doesn't hurt their stats at all to stretch on some athletes in a 1500+ person class. The sub 500 per class schools can't do that so easily, or at least not at the same volume, without hurting their rankings.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
This story goes back 20+ years at this point, so calling it stale is being generous. However, in my senior class in h.s. the number 15 student, a close friend with a bunch of non-athletic extra-curriculars and a ridiculous SAT score, was denied a spot at Johns Hopkins. The number 65 student in our class, an all-conference football player, was offered and accepted a slot at JHU. He was a good student, a nice guy, a friend, but he wasn't her caliber academically and didn't have her test scores.

Huge schools like the UAA schools and, in this case JHU, can slide an athlete through that way. It doesn't hurt their stats at all to stretch on some athletes in a 1500+ person class. The sub 500 per class schools can't do that so easily, or at least not at the same volume, without hurting their rankings.


Correct BUT it si not just Hopkins and "Huge" schools that do this. It is almost every school even in D3. That was point as a school like Amherst or Williams could only slide 3-4 guys and gals in that would otherwise have no shot of getting in. That is why if NYU adheres to that same philosophy than they should be able to slide maybe 10 kids in that would not be able to get in otherwise. That being said I have no clue about NYU admissions and it is possible that they only allow that 3-4 number to slide in...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 05:45:06 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
This story goes back 20+ years at this point, so calling it stale is being generous. However, in my senior class in h.s. the number 15 student, a close friend with a bunch of non-athletic extra-curriculars and a ridiculous SAT score, was denied a spot at Johns Hopkins. The number 65 student in our class, an all-conference football player, was offered and accepted a slot at JHU. He was a good student, a nice guy, a friend, but he wasn't her caliber academically and didn't have her test scores.

Huge schools like the UAA schools and, in this case JHU, can slide an athlete through that way. It doesn't hurt their stats at all to stretch on some athletes in a 1500+ person class. The sub 500 per class schools can't do that so easily, or at least not at the same volume, without hurting their rankings.


Correct BUT it si not just Hopkins and "Huge" schools that do this. It is almost every school even in D3. That was point as a school like Amherst or Williams could only slide 3-4 guys and gals in that would otherwise have no shot of getting in. That is why if NYU adheres to that same philosophy than they should be able to slide maybe 10 kids in that would not be able to get in otherwise. That being said I have no clue about NYU admissions and it is possible that they only allow that 3-4 number to slide in...

I agree. But someone said size doesn't matter and, to some small extent, I disagree. This is where it can matter. That's all.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 05:45:06 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 05:03:57 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
This story goes back 20+ years at this point, so calling it stale is being generous. However, in my senior class in h.s. the number 15 student, a close friend with a bunch of non-athletic extra-curriculars and a ridiculous SAT score, was denied a spot at Johns Hopkins. The number 65 student in our class, an all-conference football player, was offered and accepted a slot at JHU. He was a good student, a nice guy, a friend, but he wasn't her caliber academically and didn't have her test scores.

Huge schools like the UAA schools and, in this case JHU, can slide an athlete through that way. It doesn't hurt their stats at all to stretch on some athletes in a 1500+ person class. The sub 500 per class schools can't do that so easily, or at least not at the same volume, without hurting their rankings.


Correct BUT it si not just Hopkins and "Huge" schools that do this. It is almost every school even in D3. That was point as a school like Amherst or Williams could only slide 3-4 guys and gals in that would otherwise have no shot of getting in. That is why if NYU adheres to that same philosophy than they should be able to slide maybe 10 kids in that would not be able to get in otherwise. That being said I have no clue about NYU admissions and it is possible that they only allow that 3-4 number to slide in...

I agree. But someone said size doesn't matter and, to some small extent, I disagree. This is where it can matter. That's all.



Yes I am agreeing with you. As usual size does matter
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PMNYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.

You just selected four matchups (8 teams) all within 4,700 students of each other. We're talking about a university with 26,000 students! That is a 20,000 student difference from the highest enrollment you just listed. My point is not that the higher enrollment, the better your team should be. My point is with an enrollment significantly higher than that of your competition with the caliber of school you are attending, I would expect NYU to have a better soccer team. As someone pointed out earlier, sliding in a few recruits with sub-par academic performance in high school (in relation to other applicants) is easier at a school with higher enrollments than those with < 5,000 students as it is less of a percentage you are making an "exception" for. As for the reasons people have suggested for why recruits may not choose NYU, I now can see how practice can be a logistical nightmare travel-wise.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on December 11, 2017, 06:51:14 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PMNYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.

You just selected four matchups (8 teams) all within 4,700 students of each other. We're talking about a university with 26,000 students! That is a 20,000 student difference from the highest enrollment you just listed. My point is not that the higher enrollment, the better your team should be. My point is with an enrollment significantly higher than that of your competition with the caliber of school you are attending, I would expect NYU to have a better soccer team. As someone pointed out earlier, sliding in a few recruits with sub-par academic performance in high school (in relation to other applicants) is easier at a school with higher enrollments than those with < 5,000 students as it is less of a percentage you are making an "exception" for. As for the reasons people have suggested for why recruits may not choose NYU, I now can see how practice can be a logistical nightmare travel-wise.

Along these lines, if you are even checking out NYU at this point, you must be looking at academics first. Anyone looking to play soccer at a D3 school will be looking at other schools as well, that offer a better program. Thats just the truth of it. Factoring in the 1.5 hour commute which costs money, and valuable studying time, there is little to no time for fooling around and not doing schoolwork. At most schools, practices either go from 4-6 or 6-8. If they start at 4, they should be at the facilites by 3:30, which means they leave campus around 2:00. God forbid there is a train delay that causes 75% of your players to be late.

On the flip side if they end at 8:00, give them a half hour to shower and change, they dont get back to the "campus" until 9:00, and still have to eat. Starting homework at 10:00 each night isn't a great way to have success. There is just a lot wrong with the set-up, and unless they can change it, I don't see any big players going there. Maybe there will be some hidden gems that can bring the program up, and prove the coaches that didn't want them wrong, but it's unlikely
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 12:01:03 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 04:45:09 PMStill I am not all familiar with NYU admissions and it is quite possible that they do not care about athletics and give coaches no more options than any other school.

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 05:03:57 PMThat being said I have no clue about NYU admissions and it is possible that they only allow that 3-4 number to slide in...

This is exactly my point. You don't know how NYU manages its admissions policies. Presumably, NESCAC23 doesn't, either. You can't simply tally up enrollment totals and conclude, "Well, School X is a whole lot bigger than School Y, so it must be easier to recruit there ... so why can't School X do better?", without a working knowledge of how that school's admissions process works vis-a-vis the considerations given to athletics participation among applicants, among other things.

Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PMNYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.

You just selected four matchups (8 teams) all within 4,700 students of each other. We're talking about a university with 26,000 students! That is a 20,000 student difference from the highest enrollment you just listed. My point is not that the higher enrollment, the better your team should be. My point is with an enrollment significantly higher than that of your competition with the caliber of school you are attending, I would expect NYU to have a better soccer team. As someone pointed out earlier, sliding in a few recruits with sub-par academic performance in high school (in relation to other applicants) is easier at a school with higher enrollments than those with < 5,000 students as it is less of a percentage you are making an "exception" for.

And, again, unless you have insider knowledge of how NYU admissions works, your expectation is groundless. Look at the evidence, which goes far, far deeper than men's soccer. Here are the undergraduate enrollments of the UAA schools:


Brandeis    3,600
Carnegie Mellon    6,700
Case Western Reserve    5,100
Chicago    5,900
Emory    6,800
NYU  25,000
Rochester    6,300
Washington (MO)    7,500

Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country). That's right; in UAA-sponsored sports in which most or all of the league's schools compete, the Fighting Violets are now in a department-wide title drought that's seven years long and counting. That's not simply a matter of the soccer pitch being a 45-minute subway ride from campus. That's the entire athletics department, across the board. There are clearly administrative decisions that have been made at NYU that affect the school's ability to compete in sports within its league.

And that's why enrollment size tells you nothing about NYU sports.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on December 12, 2017, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 12:01:03 AM
Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country).

Not so -- the Violets won the 2010-11 men's soccer title. http://uaasports.info/sports/msoc/MScoccer_Records.pdf

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 09:49:42 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on December 12, 2017, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 12:01:03 AM
Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country).

Not so -- the Violets won the 2010-11 men's soccer title. http://uaasports.info/sports/msoc/MScoccer_Records.pdf

No, he meant except for that one  ;)

It should be a posting requirement that all of us admit something we had wrong at least once a year.

All of the nit-picking (and I was absolutely right in terms of my nit-picking of course) obscures that NYU actually is an interesting case, for a number of reasons....

-- Located in the heart of arguably the greatest city on the planet

-- No campus really

-- Soccer teams practices and plays far away from "campus"

-- Large enrollment but virtually no interest in terms of athletic teams in terms of student support (and that's in comparison to a slew of or even most D3 schools where the majority of the student body -- large, medium, small or tiny -- have not thought about their school's men's (or women's) soccer program for even 10 seconds

-- The costs which even compared to other "I can't believe college costs 70K a year" places is astronomical

-- And now a woman as coach for a men's program (which actually seems fitting for NYU and NYC)

The question that hasn't been answered is whether the NYU admissions department gives more or less leeway in terms of athletic recruiting compared to similarly prestigious schools.

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: midwest on December 12, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
A data point of only one on NYU --but we knew a prospie interested in NYU who was told by the program that everyone interested in playing comes to tryouts, the team is selected then, and there is no admissions bump for prospective players.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:15:59 AM
Quote from: midwest on December 12, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
A data point of only one on NYU --but we knew a prospie interested in NYU who was told by the program that everyone interested in playing comes to tryouts, the team is selected then, and there is no admissions bump for prospective players.

Interesting.

Speaking of odd places for good D3 soccer teams, I wonder what percentage of the U Chicago student body A) even knows that the men's and/or women's team were in the Final Four and B) have ever attended a game where they stayed for more than 15 minutes.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

I'd be curious to see some players and recent players share some stuff about how they made their choices....the school first, the soccer program first, how the combo worked, location, how much the coach was a dealmaker or dealbreaker, etc, etc...  I'm especially interested in my theory that there is a trend towards the UAA type and Tufts-type schools versus the LACs.  I don't necessarily agree, as I am a big LAC fan, but I think this might parallel a shift towards thinking a UAA type school is somehow a little more practical or career/professional oriented (in gross terms, like engineering versus philosophy).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

We're here... if one looks hard enough!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on December 12, 2017, 12:45:48 PM
Along with this topic, what percentage of D1 teams would the ELITE D3 teams beat? There is much debate about how "you went D1" even if you play at a crappy school, and that would be seen as "better" then someone who plays at a Messiah, Brandeis, or Tufts, for example. So how do you think the best 4-6 teams in D3 this year, let's say the Final Four teams, and Tufts and Calvin, just for arguments sake, would fare against D1 teams. Of course there would be a big gap in depth and size between these programs, but I feel like these 6 teams could put up a good fight against a good amount of D1 teams
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on December 12, 2017, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: rolldeisroll on December 12, 2017, 12:45:48 PM
Along with this topic, what percentage of D1 teams would the ELITE D3 teams beat? There is much debate about how "you went D1" even if you play at a crappy school, and that would be seen as "better" then someone who plays at a Messiah, Brandeis, or Tufts, for example. So how do you think the best 4-6 teams in D3 this year, let's say the Final Four teams, and Tufts and Calvin, just for arguments sake, would fare against D1 teams. Of course there would be a big gap in depth and size between these programs, but I feel like these 6 teams could put up a good fight against a good amount of D1 teams

This debate will never die (-;
Let's put it this way.  Pretty much all of Messiah's starting 11 and also some coming off the bench were also recruited to play at mid major, and even  higher, D1 schools (Syracuse, Vermont, Bucknell, BC, NC State, Loyola, etc, even Akron in the past!).  For their own personal reasons they chose Messiah.  That is likely similar at other top D3 soccer programs.   Messiah has played Ivy and other D1 schools in the off season many times (Bucknell) and either beat, tied, or lost close games.  They also play D2 schools locally.  Of course in off season both teams are playing deep into their bench as it is more of a scrimmage but no doubt a top D3 can compete with many D1 programs.  Top 25 D1 programs would be more of a challenge obviously.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument.

d4_Pace, you have catapulted yourself right to the top of my Tufts All-Time Faves Players List, even though I have no clue who you are.  While I am not happy about the lack of Final Four appearances and titles from 2014 thru 2016 for the Lords I think the Tufts-Kenyon rivalry is just the kind of intersectional deal that many of us crave and that is great for D3 soccer (and that many have said we'd like to see more often in the early season and not just very randomly in the tournament).  Kenyon could easily make a trip to New England at least every 2nd or 3rd year or so in that first week or two, especially when New England kids are on the roster, just as Kenyon and other schools should take advantage of the overseas allowance (and Kenyon hasn't done that either...and I'm not clear if NESCAC schools can or can't).  Recruiting at the top I'm sure is pretty fierce, so some small things and perks can be big, and for example I wonder if some coaches are hoping their teams do something similar to what you guys did in the cinematic realm.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

We're here... if one looks hard enough!

I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be  ;)

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological  ;)

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on December 12, 2017, 01:40:53 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 12:01:03 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 04:45:09 PMStill I am not all familiar with NYU admissions and it is quite possible that they do not care about athletics and give coaches no more options than any other school.

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 11, 2017, 05:03:57 PMThat being said I have no clue about NYU admissions and it is possible that they only allow that 3-4 number to slide in...

This is exactly my point. You don't know how NYU manages its admissions policies. Presumably, NESCAC23 doesn't, either. You can't simply tally up enrollment totals and conclude, "Well, School X is a whole lot bigger than School Y, so it must be easier to recruit there ... so why can't School X do better?", without a working knowledge of how that school's admissions process works vis-a-vis the considerations given to athletics participation among applicants, among other things.

Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 11, 2017, 02:19:37 PMNYU's enrollment, granted the multitude of programs they offer, is much larger than the average D3 school (26,000 undergrad students was the most recent number I found). How is it that a university of NYU's caliber with such a large enrollment, foreign student attractiveness, and in one of the most desirable cities in the world not have a better soccer team?

I'm always baffled when people quote enrollment figures as though they should be some sort of metric of a school's athletic success, or lack thereof. Unless a school has a coach who isn't doing his or her job, no coach in D3 creates a team from the student body at large. He or she recruits student-athletes who arrive on campus with the specific intention to play for that coach's team. In other words, enrollment size is irrelevant, because the players listed on the roster were specifically brought to that school to play that particular sport.

Take a look at this year's Final Four, and how each side got to Greensboro, in terms of enrollment:

Messiah (2800 undergrads) > Rochester (5100 undergrads)
North Park (1900 undergrads) > St. Thomas (5800 undergrads)
Chicago (5600 undergrads) > Emory (6600 undergrads)
Brandeis (3700 undergrads) > Tufts (5000 undergrads)

Enrollment size matters in high school in terms of sports. It doesn't matter in college.

You just selected four matchups (8 teams) all within 4,700 students of each other. We're talking about a university with 26,000 students! That is a 20,000 student difference from the highest enrollment you just listed. My point is not that the higher enrollment, the better your team should be. My point is with an enrollment significantly higher than that of your competition with the caliber of school you are attending, I would expect NYU to have a better soccer team. As someone pointed out earlier, sliding in a few recruits with sub-par academic performance in high school (in relation to other applicants) is easier at a school with higher enrollments than those with < 5,000 students as it is less of a percentage you are making an "exception" for.

And, again, unless you have insider knowledge of how NYU admissions works, your expectation is groundless. Look at the evidence, which goes far, far deeper than men's soccer. Here are the undergraduate enrollments of the UAA schools:


Brandeis    3,600
Carnegie Mellon    6,700
Case Western Reserve    5,100
Chicago    5,900
Emory    6,800
NYU  25,000
Rochester    6,300
Washington (MO)    7,500

Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country). That's right; in UAA-sponsored sports in which most or all of the league's schools compete, the Fighting Violets are now in a department-wide title drought that's seven years long and counting. That's not simply a matter of the soccer pitch being a 45-minute subway ride from campus. That's the entire athletics department, across the board. There are clearly administrative decisions that have been made at NYU that affect the school's ability to compete in sports within its league.

And that's why enrollment size tells you nothing about NYU sports.

Again, my point is not correlating overall enrollment to their performance. It is how surprised I was at how much larger their enrollment is than their competition, how attractive the university is (both location and academics), and with all this they seem to have underperformed in relation to similar (academic caliber) urban universities in big cities (Chicago, Emory, Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, etc.).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 02:01:27 PM
Paul, I agree that Tufts probably would make more sense as a UAA from a school profile, although I'm definitely glad we didn't have to fly across the country every other weekend.  I think one other factor I forgot to mention was the ability to go abroad.  I think about 60-70% of the guys went abroad during my time which was a huge attraction and one of the highlights of my experience.  That's also a huge selling point for d3 over most d1s. 

I also wish we could have the opportunity to play more of the out of region powers each year.  Unfortunately, the NESCAC starts a week later which eliminates the first weekend when Brandeis has played Trinity (tx) and Haverford within the last couple of years.  I sure wouldn't have minded the chance to go play out in California or Texas
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 02:05:05 PM
The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on December 12, 2017, 02:12:41 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 02:05:05 PM
The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues.

I think that last sentence may be a stretch. No question that the top 15 teams (the Messiahs, Calvins, Trinitys, etc.) in D3 could compete with the 75-100 range D1 teams on any given day. But the gap between the top of D1 and top of D3 is quite large IMO. I remember that Messiah spring game against G'Town. G'Town didn't play its starters for more than 10 min if I remember correctly but Messiah won 3-2 against the backups I believe which still shows the quality of top D3 teams. But to say they would finish around the top of the Patriot and Ivy Leagues might be a little too much.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 02:21:54 PM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on December 12, 2017, 02:12:41 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 02:05:05 PM
The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues.

I think that last sentence may be a stretch. No question that the top 15 teams (the Messiahs, Calvins, Trinitys, etc.) in D3 could compete with the 75-100 range D1 teams on any given day. But the gap between the top of D1 and top of D3 is quite large IMO. I remember that Messiah spring game against G'Town. G'Town didn't play its starters for more than 10 min if I remember correctly but Messiah won 3-2 against the backups I believe which still shows the quality of top D3 teams. But to say they would finish around the top of the Patriot and Ivy Leagues might be a little too much.

I agree.  Hard to think Tufts would beat Harvard, and my guess would be that Tufts might sometimes grind out a draw but would look like Bates or Colby versus Tufts in doing so (in terms of possession).  Also hard to think of Tufts finishing ahead of several Ivies in a league setting.  Sort of hope I'm wrong but don't think I am.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

We're here... if one looks hard enough!

I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be  ;)

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological  ;)

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

I can only imagine the stealthy contributions are for fear of being "outed" (excuse the word choice). Especially if the posters have been discussed on this forum in the past!

lol, I welcome the guess but I have a sneaky suspicion those guesses are way off the mark... just like my recaps ;)

As for Lowry,  I just pray that next year he gets the national recognition he has long deserved!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 02:28:55 PM
Quote from: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 02:23:26 PM
I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be  ;)

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological  ;)

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

I can only guess the participation is stealthy because young contributors fear being "outed" (excuse the word choice here). Especially if they themselves have been discussed on this forum at some point.

lol. I welcome the guesses but I have a sneaky suspicion those guesses are all way off the mark... just like my game recaps ;)

On Lowry, I just pray he finally gets the national recognition he deserves next year!
[/quote]

Ummm...I've got some pretty smart guys including a pretty smart All-American getting a Ph.D. assisting me.

What was your take on the Tufts-Kenyon Elite 8 game?  The Lords left too many goals out on field the previous day versus Trinity?  Bad karma having to play Tufts again on their field?  Could have gone either way, like the year before, as D4_Pace suggested?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 02:39:50 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on December 12, 2017, 08:46:28 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 12:01:03 AM
Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country).

Not so -- the Violets won the 2010-11 men's soccer title. http://uaasports.info/sports/msoc/MScoccer_Records.pdf

OK, fine ... six years and counting. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 09:49:42 AM
It should be a posting requirement that all of us admit something we had wrong at least once a year.

I'm saving that for a much bigger mistake than being off by a year in the ongoing NYU title drought. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 09:49:42 AM
All of the nit-picking (and I was absolutely right in terms of my nit-picking of course) obscures that NYU actually is an interesting case, for a number of reasons....

-- Located in the heart of arguably the greatest city on the planet

Oh, I'll argue that with you all the livelong day, if you'd like. :D

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 09:49:42 AM-- No campus really

-- Soccer teams practices and plays far away from "campus"

-- Large enrollment but virtually no interest in terms of athletic teams in terms of student support (and that's in comparison to a slew of or even most D3 schools where the majority of the student body -- large, medium, small or tiny -- have not thought about their school's men's (or women's) soccer program for even 10 seconds

-- The costs which even compared to other "I can't believe college costs 70K a year" places is astronomical

The only two UAA campuses I've been to are the U of C and Wash U, so I can't speak as to the location of the athletics facilities of the other six schools. For all I know, NYU soccer may be an outlier, in both senses of the term (distant from campus, and unique in being distant from campus among UAA athletics facilities). But, again, I'm not just talking about soccer here. This may be a men's soccer board, but that one sport doesn't exist in isolation, at NYU or any other school.

The "virtually no interest in terms of athletic teams in terms of student support" holds true throughout the UAA. The vast majority of U of C undergrads go through their entire sojourn on campus without ever seeing a Maroons sporting event ... and I daresay that there may be students who aren't even aware that the U of C sponsors intercollegiate athletics. And, of course, the astronomical costs of NYU are comparable to its peer institutions as well.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 09:49:42 AM-- And now a woman as coach for a men's program (which actually seems fitting for NYU and NYC)

That is unique. The question is whether or not NYU was recruiting the same numbers in terms of soccer players prior to her hire three years ago.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:15:59 AM
Quote from: midwest on December 12, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
A data point of only one on NYU --but we knew a prospie interested in NYU who was told by the program that everyone interested in playing comes to tryouts, the team is selected then, and there is no admissions bump for prospective players.

Interesting.

Speaking of odd places for good D3 soccer teams, I wonder what percentage of the U Chicago student body A) even knows that the men's and/or women's team were in the Final Four and B) have ever attended a game where they stayed for more than 15 minutes.

A) I'm guessing that it's pretty low, but I have a friend in the U of C athletic department whom I'll ask who can give me a more informed guess. B) I've been to soccer matches at Stagg Field, and there's typically no more than a tiny handful of U of C students in the stands. I counted about ten or so the last time I was there for a soccer match. The Maroons averaged 155 for home attendance this season (including four D3 tourney matches at Stagg), and the biggest chunk of the Maroons portion of that average, by far, consisted of alumni and families.

It's a stark contrast to regular Maroons opponents such as North Park, Wheaton, and Loras that really pack 'em in the stands.

it goes without saying that the Maroons deserve better, both men and women.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

That's not a soccer thing, that's a general athletics thing. Very, very few recent football, basketball, or baseball players participate on d3boards.com, either. I think that part of the explanation for that lies in the fact that young people have more going on in their lives than do us old duffers. The other part is that a lot of recent student-athletes feel the need for some separation from that recently-sundered part of their identity. A lot of the ex-jocks who post start up again after having been away from their respective programs for a few years.

Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

The usual classification employed by higher-education people is to distinguish research universities from liberal arts colleges. The UAA schools are research universities, with the accent upon graduate schools, faculty research and publishing, the extensive use of TAs in teaching undergrads, etc. In other words, it goes beyond curriculum and specific disciplines, although, of course, research universities tend to be more STEM-oriented than are liberal arts colleges because they're larger and more comprehensive in terms of academic disciplines. Liberal arts colleges are more focused upon undergraduate education than graduate education, and the overall academic accent tends to be less STEM-oriented (although of course the hard sciences are always present to some degree) and more classically liberal-arts-oriented (humanities, social sciences, and fine arts are as prominent, or more so, than are hard sciences).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 02:47:27 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 02:28:55 PM
Quote from: The Cove on December 12, 2017, 02:23:26 PM
I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be  ;)

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological  ;)

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

I can only guess the participation is stealthy because young contributors fear being "outed" (excuse the word choice here). Especially if they themselves have been discussed on this forum at some point.

lol. I welcome the guesses but I have a sneaky suspicion those guesses are all way off the mark... just like my game recaps ;)

On Lowry, I just pray he finally gets the national recognition he deserves next year!

Ummm...I've got some pretty smart guys including a pretty smart All-American getting a Ph.D. assisting me.

What was your take on the Tufts-Kenyon Elite 8 game?  The Lords left too many goals out on field the previous day versus Trinity?  Bad karma having to play Tufts again on their field?  Could have gone either way, like the year before, as D4_Pace suggested?
[/quote]

Oh, it absolutely could have gone either way, I feel. Going in, both teams matched up well across the board and played similar styles (physical but with enough quick passing to match). I can't be sure, but I also believe both teams also had one clear chance each before the last second goal. That's how the sport works sometimes, though, I suppose!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 02:55:35 PM
Thank you, Professor Sager.  I never did understand the difference between research universities and LACs.  Good lecture.  You must be a blast with the family playing board games, lol.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 03:08:56 PM
I agree with the Cove that the two teams matched up well.  Both games were settled on a goal out of basically nothing. 

Also I think Henry Myers had to be this year's biggest AA snub.  Any explanation from the lords faithful?  Late-season struggle, injury, etc..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 04:50:26 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 03:08:56 PM
I agree with the Cove that the two teams matched up well.  Both games were settled on a goal out of basically nothing. 

Also I think Henry Myers had to be this year's biggest AA snub.  Any explanation from the lords faithful?  Late-season struggle, injury, etc..

I had the same thought about Myers but I've done more than enough shilling for Kenyon over the years so I just let it go.  He suffered an leg injury in the first 5 minutes in the 1st round game against Transylvania so he didn't play against Otterbein which obviously didn't help but they still had plenty enough to advance (if you look at the stats).  With Myers, I would have liked their chances against St Thomas and even North Park but there are no do-overs.  Actually Myers, Carmona and Lowry were all good AA candidates.  I'm convinced Lowry is one of the best, least heralded players in the country (although he did allow Majumder to make that turn at the six with Myers and Wynn on the other side with absolutely no one for Tufts to cover at all so no clue why Kenyon didn't have a man on either side of him at that point in the game).  Hard to see all that hard work over several months with a Final Four trip on the line come down to something like that (but also very, very similar to what happened to Tufts this year as I mentioned before in the exact same minute of the game...109th).  Give Majumder credit, though.  3 goals against Kenyon in 2 games.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 12, 2017, 04:58:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 02:55:35 PM
Thank you, Professor Sager.  I never did understand the difference between research universities and LACs.  Good lecture.  You must be a blast with the family playing board games, lol.

The only board games I've been allowed to play with my family were Candyland and Uncle Wiggly, both of which my nephews and nieces have long since outgrown. ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on December 13, 2017, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 02:05:05 PM
The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues.

I've weighed in on this one in the past.  My older son played for a Brown team that was perennially ranked in the top 20 in D1.  My younger son played for a Bowdoin team that was ranked #5 in D3 at the end of the regular season and went to the final four in 2010.  My sons and I generally agreed that the starting 11 for that Bowdoin team could probably have hung in there for 45 minutes against the better Ivy teams, but would have faded in the second half as the superior depth and overall skill level of the Ivy teams prevailed.  I don't think that overall equation has changed much over the last seven years...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 15, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Ryan Harmanis on December 09, 2017, 10:39:55 AM
Figured I'd briefly chime in on the NPU-Chicago rankings debate.

I put NPU second, Chicago third. I think Chicago is better - the semifinal was more than just one team having an off-day, Chicago was clearly better. If that had been their only game I'd have put Chicago second. If NPU had been 12-5-4 and were a Cinderella maybe I'd have put Chicago second. But, to me, at some point results overtake who I think is better when it comes to rankings. NPU went 1-0-1 against Chicago and never conceded a goal, and they went 20-2-2 overall. And the first game between Chicago and NPU was, at a minimum, even. So, with little to choose between the teams on resume, and two full games between the two, I went with NPU.

I think either position is defensible. I can relate to being the better team and losing. 3/4 of my NCAA trips ended in games where we were easily the better team. But that's part of the sport. I would guess we'd have won a rematch handily each time, but if you get a second shot and still can't do it, hard to have too many complaints about being ranked behind that team. Put concretely, if Team X is clearly better than Team Y, then they should win at least one out of two games against them. We've all picked a sport where you don't have the luxury of a seven-game series.

Interesting debate, though, and reflects that everyone can view rankings differently. I try to balance which teams I think are better/best with which teams deserve higher rankings based on their body of work. Given that we work with limited information, that's not always possible.

The only national champion since I've been involved that I would not have voted No. 1 overall was Middlebury 2007. I would have put Trinity No. 1.


Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 17, 2017, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 15, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 18, 2017, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 17, 2017, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 15, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.


I seriously doubt they would be harassed. You might get one or two cantankerous parents or whatever but it is what it is I guess. For the sake of transparency I think at the very least we could get a list of the schools they are affiliated with. For D3Soccer contributors they could just list D3Soccer.com and maybe the town they are from. I would think the site would want to do this so us posters and especially those that care about rankings that we are getting fair representation from each region.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 18, 2017, 12:48:55 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 18, 2017, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 17, 2017, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 15, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.


I seriously doubt they would be harassed. You might get one or two cantankerous parents or whatever but it is what it is I guess. For the sake of transparency I think at the very least we could get a list of the schools they are affiliated with. For D3Soccer contributors they could just list D3Soccer.com and maybe the town they are from. I would think the site would want to do this so us posters and especially those that care about rankings that we are getting fair representation from each region.

Your words basically prove my point. "at the very least we could get the list of schools they are affiliated with." Why? "Maybe the town they are from." Why?

If D3soccer is like the D3sports network it was once affiliated with, they are making sure their poll is fairly balanced how they deem it should be... not to you or any body else's parameters. They don't answer to you ultimately. You already point out more than a few times how you think voters are wrong... you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out. You haven't shown otherwise.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on December 18, 2017, 01:01:47 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 18, 2017, 12:48:55 PM
you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out.

This seems a little unnecessarily aggressive. I can see both sides of the coin -- why some would prefer to keep the voters anonymous while others think it would improve transparency -- and think both have merits, but we don't need to go making assumptions about what a given poster would or wouldn't do.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 18, 2017, 02:19:44 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on December 18, 2017, 01:01:47 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 18, 2017, 12:48:55 PM
you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out.

This seems a little unnecessarily aggressive. I can see both sides of the coin -- why some would prefer to keep the voters anonymous while others think it would improve transparency -- and think both have merits, but we don't need to go making assumptions about what a given poster would or wouldn't do.

How I read his words makes me wonder if he would search out voters, ask how they vote, and question their voting stance. He already has in this open forum without knowing the voters.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on December 18, 2017, 08:02:36 PM
Only 21 NCAA D3 schools have ever won the National Championship since the inception of the D3 national tournament in 1974.  Only 9 schools have won the National Championship more than once.  And only 8 schools have won the National Championship in the last 20 years.  Here's the breakdown:

Messiah (11 Championships)
UNC Greensboro (5) – no longer D3
Babson (3)
UC San Diego (3) – no longer D3
Lock Haven (2) – no longer D3
Ohio Wesleyan (2)
Rowan (2)
Tufts (2)
Wheaton Ill (2)
Amherst (1)
Bethany (1)
Brandeis (1)
Brockport State (1)
Elizabethtown (1)
Kean (1)
Middlebury (1)
Richard Stockton (1)
St Lawrence (1)
TCNJ (1)
Trinity (1)
Williams (1)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on December 19, 2017, 10:07:16 AM
Only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 every season since 2010.  Name them...
Since 2010, only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 having lost 7 games in the season. Name them...
Since 2010, one team has finished the season ranked 3rd 3x.  Name them...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 19, 2017, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on December 19, 2017, 10:07:16 AM
Only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 every season since 2010.  Name them...
Since 2010, only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 having lost 7 games in the season. Name them...
Since 2010, one team has finished the season ranked 3rd 3x.  Name them...

Are we talking the USC/NSCAA Top 25 or the D3soccer.com Top 25? 

And for the third question, are you saying exactly 3rd three times or third or better?

Assuming we're talking the D3soccer.com Top 25 (which makes sense if you're starting from 2010),  I'm surprised it's only two teams that made it each year.  Of course, Loras missed this year, Messiah missed two years ago.  I think Calvin missed the first year after the coaching change following their 2011 finals appearance.  Oneonta State probably wasn't ranked in 2010 before their 2011 Final Four run.  Montclair State wasn't ranked this year and probably not last year, come to think of it.  That leaves Trinity (Tx.) and Amherst and I guess just those two if your question is accurate.

No idea about teams with 7 losses without looking.  5 and even 6 losses is fairly common, but 7 is rare.  Won't venture a guess.

As to finishing 3rd three times it's gotta be Loras or Oneonta State--two teams that made the Final Four a few times but never won it.  I'm almost positive that when Loras lost in OT to Messiah in the 2012 semifinal and then Messiah trounced Ohio Northern in the final, Loras got 2nd.  Ohh, and they certainly got 2nd two years ago when they lost to Amherst in the final.  So it's gotta be Oneonta.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on December 20, 2017, 09:46:19 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 19, 2017, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on December 19, 2017, 10:07:16 AM
Only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 every season since 2010.  Name them...
Since 2010, only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 having lost 7 games in the season. Name them...
Since 2010, one team has finished the season ranked 3rd 3x.  Name them...

Are we talking the USC/NSCAA Top 25 or the D3soccer.com Top 25? 

And for the third question, are you saying exactly 3rd three times or third or better?

Assuming we're talking the D3soccer.com Top 25 (which makes sense if you're starting from 2010),  I'm surprised it's only two teams that made it each year.  Of course, Loras missed this year, Messiah missed two years ago.  I think Calvin missed the first year after the coaching change following their 2011 finals appearance.  Oneonta State probably wasn't ranked in 2010 before their 2011 Final Four run.  Montclair State wasn't ranked this year and probably not last year, come to think of it.  That leaves Trinity (Tx.) and Amherst and I guess just those two if your question is accurate.

No idea about teams with 7 losses without looking.  5 and even 6 losses is fairly common, but 7 is rare.  Won't venture a guess.

As to finishing 3rd three times it's gotta be Loras or Oneonta State--two teams that made the Final Four a few times but never won it.  I'm almost positive that when Loras lost in OT to Messiah in the 2012 semifinal and then Messiah trounced Ohio Northern in the final, Loras got 2nd.  Ohh, and they certainly got 2nd two years ago when they lost to Amherst in the final.  So it's gotta be Oneonta.

Yes, D3Soccer Top 25.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on December 20, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on December 20, 2017, 09:46:19 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 19, 2017, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on December 19, 2017, 10:07:16 AM
Only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 every season since 2010.  Name them...
Since 2010, only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 having lost 7 games in the season. Name them...
Since 2010, one team has finished the season ranked 3rd 3x.  Name them...

Are we talking the USC/NSCAA Top 25 or the D3soccer.com Top 25? 

And for the third question, are you saying exactly 3rd three times or third or better?

Assuming we're talking the D3soccer.com Top 25 (which makes sense if you're starting from 2010),  I'm surprised it's only two teams that made it each year.  Of course, Loras missed this year, Messiah missed two years ago.  I think Calvin missed the first year after the coaching change following their 2011 finals appearance.  Oneonta State probably wasn't ranked in 2010 before their 2011 Final Four run.  Montclair State wasn't ranked this year and probably not last year, come to think of it.  That leaves Trinity (Tx.) and Amherst and I guess just those two if your question is accurate.

No idea about teams with 7 losses without looking.  5 and even 6 losses is fairly common, but 7 is rare.  Won't venture a guess.

As to finishing 3rd three times it's gotta be Loras or Oneonta State--two teams that made the Final Four a few times but never won it.  I'm almost positive that when Loras lost in OT to Messiah in the 2012 semifinal and then Messiah trounced Ohio Northern in the final, Loras got 2nd.  Ohh, and they certainly got 2nd two years ago when they lost to Amherst in the final.  So it's gotta be Oneonta.

Yes, D3Soccer Top 25.

  • Yes, Amherst and Trinity are the only teams to be ranked in the top 25 every year since 2010.


  • Yes, 7 losses is rare. Out of 200 teams ranked, it's only happened 2x. Loras was 16-7-1 in 2010 and ranked 21st. Williams was 15-7 and ranked 8th in 2013. Interesting how a good tournament run can move you from unranked to 8th, while a bad tournament loss can push you from #1 to #9 (OWU 19-1-3). I'm not sure I'd agree that 15-7 Williams was better than 19-1-3 OWU regardless of tournament results.


  • Yes, Oneonta is correct (3rd in 2011, 2014, 2105). Interestingly, they've only been ranked one other time - 16th this year.


Oneonta hasn't been a D3 soccer school for very long -- switched from D1 in 2006 and didn't become full D3 member until 2008, I believe --  so not being ranked prior to 2010 is consistent.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 20, 2017, 04:23:18 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on December 20, 2017, 09:46:19 AM
  • Yes, 7 losses is rare. Out of 200 teams ranked, it's only happened 2x. Loras was 16-7-1 in 2010 and ranked 21st. Williams was 15-7 and ranked 8th in 2013. Interesting how a good tournament run can move you from unranked to 8th, while a bad tournament loss can push you from #1 to #9 (OWU 19-1-3). I'm not sure I'd agree that 15-7 Williams was better than 19-1-3 OWU regardless of tournament results.

Well, if the national champion HAS TO BE ranked No. 1, than the same logic would require that all Final Four teams be ranked at least _________ (those who ascribe to this philosophy can fill in the blank.).  Tufts went from unranked to No.1 last year carrying five losses and two ties while Messiah, Chicago and Amherst only suffered one loss with 2 or 3 ties playing high SOS while a handful of other teams also had better final records and arguably better overall campaigns from start to finish than Tufts (Kenyon, Calvin, Trinity, etc.).  And in 2014, Tufts went from No. 20 to No. 1 based on their tournament run to the title. In 2010, Lynchburg went from unranked to No. 2 after their surprise run to the title game (that they lost after the non-call on Messiah's tying goal--otherwise I'm sure they would have been voted No. 1). In 2011, runner-up Calvin (with 6 losses and 2 ties) went from unranked to No. 2, ahead of three teams with just one loss and one tie each, but having one of those blemishes come at the wrong time.  For many, tournament finish is king when it comes to an end-of-season rating of teams, and, in that case, 15-7-0 Williams ahead of 19-1-3 Ohio Wesleyan makes perfect sense.

Quote
  • Yes, Oneonta is correct (3rd in 2011, 2014, 2105). Interestingly, they've only been ranked one other time - 16th this year.

I would have swore Oneonta was ranked in another year so I had to check your work (I assumed you were correct but had to see for myself), and Oneonta was the second highest "Receiving Votes" in 2012 and 2016 but not ranked.

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on December 21, 2017, 11:58:09 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 04:52:49 PM
This story goes back 20+ years at this point, so calling it stale is being generous. However, in my senior class in h.s. the number 15 student, a close friend with a bunch of non-athletic extra-curriculars and a ridiculous SAT score, was denied a spot at Johns Hopkins. The number 65 student in our class, an all-conference football player, was offered and accepted a slot at JHU. He was a good student, a nice guy, a friend, but he wasn't her caliber academically and didn't have her test scores.

Huge schools like the UAA schools and, in this case JHU, can slide an athlete through that way. It doesn't hurt their stats at all to stretch on some athletes in a 1500+ person class. The sub 500 per class schools can't do that so easily, or at least not at the same volume, without hurting their rankings.

I had no business getting into Hopkins. :D

(And, fwiw, when I applied undergrad enrollment was somewhere around 4,000... I know it's up these days, but can't be more than 6 or 7k.)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on December 21, 2017, 12:08:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument.

d4_Pace, you have catapulted yourself right to the top of my Tufts All-Time Faves Players List, even though I have no clue who you are.  While I am not happy about the lack of Final Four appearances and titles from 2014 thru 2016 for the Lords I think the Tufts-Kenyon rivalry is just the kind of intersectional deal that many of us crave and that is great for D3 soccer (and that many have said we'd like to see more often in the early season and not just very randomly in the tournament).  Kenyon could easily make a trip to New England at least every 2nd or 3rd year or so in that first week or two, especially when New England kids are on the roster, just as Kenyon and other schools should take advantage of the overseas allowance (and Kenyon hasn't done that either...and I'm not clear if NESCAC schools can or can't).  Recruiting at the top I'm sure is pretty fierce, so some small things and perks can be big, and for example I wonder if some coaches are hoping their teams do something similar to what you guys did in the cinematic realm.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

You guys probably know this, but Hopkins was in the UAA for basketball and some other sports all the way through 2001.

I've said this before on one of the threads, but I find the UAA to be a very strange conference in terms of logistics and cost. I'm certainly glad that when I was at Hopkins we weren't traveling all over the damn place playing games in Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, etc.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 21, 2017, 03:20:23 PM
Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on December 20, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
Oneonta hasn't been a D3 soccer school for very long -- switched from D1 in 2006 and didn't become full D3 member until 2008, I believe --  so not being ranked prior to 2010 is consistent.

Oneonta State men's soccer was one of the programs that was grandfathered in when the NCAA rule was made that restricted schools to only competing in one division, unless the sport in question was not offered in that division. Oneonta State has been a D3 member since the inception of the division back in 1973, but, as noted, it had an exception within the athletics department by competing in D1 in men's soccer until '06.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on December 21, 2017, 07:21:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 21, 2017, 12:08:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument.

d4_Pace, you have catapulted yourself right to the top of my Tufts All-Time Faves Players List, even though I have no clue who you are.  While I am not happy about the lack of Final Four appearances and titles from 2014 thru 2016 for the Lords I think the Tufts-Kenyon rivalry is just the kind of intersectional deal that many of us crave and that is great for D3 soccer (and that many have said we'd like to see more often in the early season and not just very randomly in the tournament).  Kenyon could easily make a trip to New England at least every 2nd or 3rd year or so in that first week or two, especially when New England kids are on the roster, just as Kenyon and other schools should take advantage of the overseas allowance (and Kenyon hasn't done that either...and I'm not clear if NESCAC schools can or can't).  Recruiting at the top I'm sure is pretty fierce, so some small things and perks can be big, and for example I wonder if some coaches are hoping their teams do something similar to what you guys did in the cinematic realm.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

You guys probably know this, but Hopkins was in the UAA for basketball and some other sports all the way through 2001.

I've said this before on one of the threads, but I find the UAA to be a very strange conference in terms of logistics and cost. I'm certainly glad that when I was at Hopkins we weren't traveling all over the damn place playing games in Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, etc.

It's not as though they're doing it every week.  It's two weekends per year, and they're all in major cities with reasonably large airports.  For example, Brandeis went to Cleveland to play a game one Sunday, and went to Rochester and Atlanta another weekend for a Friday/Sunday pair of games.  Personally, I think I'd prefer that to the long bus rides that are typical in many other conferences.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on December 22, 2017, 11:45:15 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on December 21, 2017, 07:21:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 21, 2017, 12:08:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument.

d4_Pace, you have catapulted yourself right to the top of my Tufts All-Time Faves Players List, even though I have no clue who you are.  While I am not happy about the lack of Final Four appearances and titles from 2014 thru 2016 for the Lords I think the Tufts-Kenyon rivalry is just the kind of intersectional deal that many of us crave and that is great for D3 soccer (and that many have said we'd like to see more often in the early season and not just very randomly in the tournament).  Kenyon could easily make a trip to New England at least every 2nd or 3rd year or so in that first week or two, especially when New England kids are on the roster, just as Kenyon and other schools should take advantage of the overseas allowance (and Kenyon hasn't done that either...and I'm not clear if NESCAC schools can or can't).  Recruiting at the top I'm sure is pretty fierce, so some small things and perks can be big, and for example I wonder if some coaches are hoping their teams do something similar to what you guys did in the cinematic realm.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

You guys probably know this, but Hopkins was in the UAA for basketball and some other sports all the way through 2001.

I've said this before on one of the threads, but I find the UAA to be a very strange conference in terms of logistics and cost. I'm certainly glad that when I was at Hopkins we weren't traveling all over the damn place playing games in Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, etc.

It's not as though they're doing it every week.  It's two weekends per year, and they're all in major cities with reasonably large airports.  For example, Brandeis went to Cleveland to play a game one Sunday, and went to Rochester and Atlanta another weekend for a Friday/Sunday pair of games.  Personally, I think I'd prefer that to the long bus rides that are typical in many other conferences.

That's a fair point. I hadn't ever really looked at their schedules closely.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on December 23, 2017, 11:26:12 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 22, 2017, 11:45:15 AM
Quote from: Buck O. on December 21, 2017, 07:21:07 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on December 21, 2017, 12:08:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on December 12, 2017, 01:05:13 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Paul Newman despite the Kenyon-Tufts rivalry you have been one of my favorite posters so I'll give it a shot.  First off, I do know of some other players that post more anonymously than I have, so they are out there.  In terms of choice...

I think you are right about the shift towards mid sized schools.  Most of the other NESCACs, Haverford, Swarthmore schools are smaller than my high school which I thought would be odd.  Second, I think Tufts being located right next to Boston is a huge advantage over the other NESCACs in terms of recruiting. Tufts is also kind of an anomaly in your LAC vs UAA type argument because the school advertises itself as a liberal arts university.  We are still part of the NESCAC and the majority of the school is in a liberal arts program.  But it also offers engineering and the hard science classes that attracted a couple guys on the team each year who would not have considered other NESCACs.
For me, I think soccer played a bigger factor than what other poster speculated.  I only was looking at "good" academic schools and knew that I would be able to fit in/take the classes I specifically wanted at any of the schools.  So while there was some small difference in the reputation of the schools I was considering, it was small enough to not play a significant role.  That meant the biggest thing was relationship with the coach, playing style, and potential to play right away, as well as potential for success.  But the final and most important factor was something less tangible or quantifiable, my experience on my official visit.  At certain schools the team dynamic or vibe was off, but at Tufts I instantly knew I wanted to be a part of that group of guys.  And I think that type of culture has remained the schools biggest selling point. 

The other big factor this post doesn't consider and is huge for the elite d3 schools is the d1 vs d3 debate.  But thats a whole other argument.

d4_Pace, you have catapulted yourself right to the top of my Tufts All-Time Faves Players List, even though I have no clue who you are.  While I am not happy about the lack of Final Four appearances and titles from 2014 thru 2016 for the Lords I think the Tufts-Kenyon rivalry is just the kind of intersectional deal that many of us crave and that is great for D3 soccer (and that many have said we'd like to see more often in the early season and not just very randomly in the tournament).  Kenyon could easily make a trip to New England at least every 2nd or 3rd year or so in that first week or two, especially when New England kids are on the roster, just as Kenyon and other schools should take advantage of the overseas allowance (and Kenyon hasn't done that either...and I'm not clear if NESCAC schools can or can't).  Recruiting at the top I'm sure is pretty fierce, so some small things and perks can be big, and for example I wonder if some coaches are hoping their teams do something similar to what you guys did in the cinematic realm.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

You guys probably know this, but Hopkins was in the UAA for basketball and some other sports all the way through 2001.

I've said this before on one of the threads, but I find the UAA to be a very strange conference in terms of logistics and cost. I'm certainly glad that when I was at Hopkins we weren't traveling all over the damn place playing games in Chicago, Atlanta, Boston, etc.

It's not as though they're doing it every week.  It's two weekends per year, and they're all in major cities with reasonably large airports.  For example, Brandeis went to Cleveland to play a game one Sunday, and went to Rochester and Atlanta another weekend for a Friday/Sunday pair of games.  Personally, I think I'd prefer that to the long bus rides that are typical in many other conferences.

That's a fair point. I hadn't ever really looked at their schedules closely.

Yeah its all done quite well. At most, 3 travel weekends the whole year, and it really makes you feel like a pro player I bet. St. Louis on Thursday/Friday, Chicago on Saturday/Sunday, fly home Sunday Night. Thats usually how a UAA weekend goes,
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on December 23, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 18, 2017, 12:48:55 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 18, 2017, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 17, 2017, 05:19:21 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 15, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.


I seriously doubt they would be harassed. You might get one or two cantankerous parents or whatever but it is what it is I guess. For the sake of transparency I think at the very least we could get a list of the schools they are affiliated with. For D3Soccer contributors they could just list D3Soccer.com and maybe the town they are from. I would think the site would want to do this so us posters and especially those that care about rankings that we are getting fair representation from each region.

Your words basically prove my point. "at the very least we could get the list of schools they are affiliated with." Why? "Maybe the town they are from." Why?

If D3soccer is like the D3sports network it was once affiliated with, they are making sure their poll is fairly balanced how they deem it should be... not to you or any body else's parameters. They don't answer to you ultimately. You already point out more than a few times how you think voters are wrong... you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out. You haven't shown otherwise.


This makes me laugh...You are way to sensitive. You are getting aggressive with me for one reason and one reason only because I criticized your call of the NCAA Semi Final and Final games. All I said was that is was obvious you were not fully prepared and I was not the only one to comment on it. It is not a big deal but at the time I thought it was a disservice to the players and teams involved. Anyway, I would never harass a voter on why and how they voted. I just really do not care about rankings that much and in my 3000 or so posts I bet I have talked about rankings maybe 20 times. Now though I will certainly follow it much more closely. If D3Soccer.com cannot give us a list of where or what region the voters are from than these rankings should be monitored and scrutinized much more closely. I will be sure to start next season.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 23, 2017, 11:15:10 PM
If D3soccer.com not revealing anything about their Top 25 voter demographics means you will be following the rankings more closely and talking about them on the message board, then I think you have just ensured that the website will not reveal anything!  What more could the website ask for than to have the most active poster on this message board driving conversation and interest in their Top 25?!?   ;D
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on December 27, 2017, 06:40:32 PM
Mr Righr has a point though, Dmac was triggered bc we didn't agree with their votes. get over it, opinions are exactly that. and we all have one. Mr Right is probably one of the most dedicated on this forum so he should be allowed to say whatever he wants about the voters. I can bet that he watches more D3 soccer than some of those voters.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on December 28, 2017, 12:29:28 AM
When does the NPOY award(s) come out (if the announcement has been made already)?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on December 28, 2017, 10:45:14 AM
And was there an announcement who was on the all-tournament team?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave B on December 28, 2017, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on December 28, 2017, 12:29:28 AM
When does the NPOY award(s) come out (if the announcement has been made already)?

The USC POY is Shae Bottum of St. Thomas.

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/web/News/Articles/December_2017/United_Soccer_Coaches_announces_National_Players_of_the_Year.aspx
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on December 30, 2017, 06:00:17 PM
To all who celebrate Christmas and/or enjoy the EPL, enjoy this belated gift. 😂🤣 (Probably belongs under the World/Euro forum, but I'm on my phone and am too lazy to go back.) https://youtu.be/SpKUEJOkWMg
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 03, 2018, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on December 30, 2017, 06:00:17 PM
To all who celebrate Christmas and/or enjoy the EPL, enjoy this belated gift. 😂🤣 (Probably belongs under the World/Euro forum, but I'm on my phone and am too lazy to go back.) https://youtu.be/SpKUEJOkWMg

This is hilarious. The Stevie Bruce one was the best...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 03, 2018, 03:53:49 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 03, 2018, 01:48:26 PM
This is hilarious. The Stevie Bruce one was the best...

That was a good one, I think the Harry Redknapp was my favorite -- he is such a character.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 11, 2018, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 23, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
This makes me laugh...You are way to sensitive. You are getting aggressive with me for one reason and one reason only because I criticized your call of the NCAA Semi Final and Final games. All I said was that is was obvious you were not fully prepared and I was not the only one to comment on it. It is not a big deal but at the time I thought it was a disservice to the players and teams involved. Anyway, I would never harass a voter on why and how they voted. I just really do not care about rankings that much and in my 3000 or so posts I bet I have talked about rankings maybe 20 times. Now though I will certainly follow it much more closely. If D3Soccer.com cannot give us a list of where or what region the voters are from than these rankings should be monitored and scrutinized much more closely. I will be sure to start next season.

Welp... took me awhile to get back here due to my schedule, but sadly I did.

Honestly, I never saw you criticize my preparations for the final four. In fact, this is the first time I have read those comments and I both laugh and am a little irked.

First off, I over prepare for broadcasts. You can ask anyone who works with me or seems me prep. I probably do too much work. I am not going to waste my time explaining my prep work, but you can certainly ask the SIDs and others at the schools involved if I prepared or not and you are welcome to ask my colleague who saw the work in front of me.

Did I screw up some names. Damn right I did. Pisses me off to no end and it will be something that sticks with me for years to come. I am my own worst critic and when I make the smallest of mistakes that many don't even notice, I rip myself a part for it.

I am sorry you think I did a disservice to the players and teams involved, but I assure you that is not the comments I received from those and many others involved.

As for your scrutiny of the polls, sad to hear you think they need to be monitored and scrutinized more closely. I know people do their best to vote accordingly and to have someone feel they need to call out mistakes is disappointing. Is it perfect? Heck, no. It never is even at the top levels of DI. I, for one, post my ballot publicly in basketball because I felt it necessary due to the amount of time I dedicate to talking about the top teams and the number of questions I receive. However, I am a much more public face than others and I wouldn't want them feeling they were being unfairly monitored in their voting. That's for the editors of the websites to do.

That said, those voters probably don't really care what you think. I have to keep that in mind.

And with that... back to basketball.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: irapthor on January 12, 2018, 10:48:28 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 11, 2018, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 23, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
This makes me laugh...You are way to sensitive. You are getting aggressive with me for one reason and one reason only because I criticized your call of the NCAA Semi Final and Final games. All I said was that is was obvious you were not fully prepared and I was not the only one to comment on it. It is not a big deal but at the time I thought it was a disservice to the players and teams involved. Anyway, I would never harass a voter on why and how they voted. I just really do not care about rankings that much and in my 3000 or so posts I bet I have talked about rankings maybe 20 times. Now though I will certainly follow it much more closely. If D3Soccer.com cannot give us a list of where or what region the voters are from than these rankings should be monitored and scrutinized much more closely. I will be sure to start next season.

Welp... took me awhile to get back here due to my schedule, but sadly I did.

Honestly, I never saw you criticize my preparations for the final four. In fact, this is the first time I have read those comments and I both laugh and am a little irked.

First off, I over prepare for broadcasts. You can ask anyone who works with me or seems me prep. I probably do too much work. I am not going to waste my time explaining my prep work, but you can certainly ask the SIDs and others at the schools involved if I prepared or not and you are welcome to ask my colleague who saw the work in front of me.

Did I screw up some names. Damn right I did. Pisses me off to no end and it will be something that sticks with me for years to come. I am my own worst critic and when I make the smallest of mistakes that many don't even notice, I rip myself a part for it.

I am sorry you think I did a disservice to the players and teams involved, but I assure you that is not the comments I received from those and many others involved.

As for your scrutiny of the polls, sad to hear you think they need to be monitored and scrutinized more closely. I know people do their best to vote accordingly and to have someone feel they need to call out mistakes is disappointing. Is it perfect? Heck, no. It never is even at the top levels of DI. I, for one, post my ballot publicly in basketball because I felt it necessary due to the amount of time I dedicate to talking about the top teams and the number of questions I receive. However, I am a much more public face than others and I wouldn't want them feeling they were being unfairly monitored in their voting. That's for the editors of the websites to do.

That said, those voters probably don't really care what you think. I have to keep that in mind.

And with that... back to basketball.

Mr. Right, can you explain in what way Dave was not prepared?

I can tell you, from working with him at the last two championships, he's extremely prepared. I have copies of the broadcast cards to prove it.

We do a ton behind the scenes to prepare. In the week before the championship, I spent hours on the phone with more than half the coaches in the semifinals (not every coach was available so I couldn't get everyone).

Every broadcaster prepares differently, but I thought Dave was very prepared. And he knows DIII better than almost anyone, which goes a long way.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 12, 2018, 03:52:19 PM
2017 D3soccer.com Men's All-Americans (http://d3soccer.com/awards/all-america/2017/2017-Mens-AA)

FIRST TEAM
Pos.   Player   Year   School
F   Max Lopez *   Jr.   Chicago
F   Fabio De Sousa   So.   Rutgers-Newark
F   Matthew Koh   Jr.   Chicago
M   Shae Bottum   Sr.   St. Thomas
M   Jesse Marinaro   Sr.   John Carroll
M   Josh Ocel **   Sr.   Brandeis
M   Tyler Kulcsar   Sr.   Tufts
D   Trent Vegter *   Jr.   Calvin
D   Conor Coleman   Sr.   Tufts
D   Dakota Rosenberg *   Sr.   Messiah
GK   Bryan See   Sr.   Johns Hopkins

SECOND TEAM
Pos.   Player   Year   School
F   Patrick Santini   Sr.   Gettysburg
F   Colby Thomas   Sr.   Messiah
M   Jacob Witte   Jr.   Calvin
M   Dayo Adeosun   So.   Chicago
M   Matias Warp   So.   North Park
M   Alberto Carmona   Jr.   Kenyon
D   Mike Swiercz   Sr.   Johns Hopkins
D   Bret Lowry   Jr.   Kenyon
D   Sainclair Tueno   Jr.   Lycoming
D   Riley Bubb   Sr.   Bowdoin
GK   Blake Mullen   Jr.   St. Joseph's (Maine)

THIRD TEAM
Pos.   Player   Year   School
F   Nick West   Jr.   Messiah
F   Shane Doherty   Jr.   Rowan
M   Jimmy Grace   Sr.   Chris. Newport
M   Cory Santangelo   Sr.   Oneonta State
M   Nicco Capotosto *   Jr.   Chicago
D   Dalton Gaumer   Jr.   St. Joseph's (Maine)
D   Matt Hinds   Sr.   Calvin
D   Jaden Lunger   Sr.   Otterbein
D   Caleb Vandergriff   Jr.   Mary Hardin-Baylor
D   Devonte Black   Sr.   Buffalo State
GK   Ben Woodhouse   Sr.   Brandeis

* previous D3soccer.com All-America honors

Forward of the Year: Lopez
Midfielder of the Year: Bottum
Defender of the Year: Vegter
Goalkeeper of the Year: See

2017 MEN'S COACH OF THE YEAR
John Born (20-2-0) - North Park - 2017 National Runner-up
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 12, 2018, 07:06:57 PM
Congrats to Matias Warp, and especially to COY John Born, of NPU! Well deserved!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 13, 2018, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: irapthor on January 12, 2018, 10:48:28 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 11, 2018, 10:51:00 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 23, 2017, 02:09:42 PM
This makes me laugh...You are way to sensitive. You are getting aggressive with me for one reason and one reason only because I criticized your call of the NCAA Semi Final and Final games. All I said was that is was obvious you were not fully prepared and I was not the only one to comment on it. It is not a big deal but at the time I thought it was a disservice to the players and teams involved. Anyway, I would never harass a voter on why and how they voted. I just really do not care about rankings that much and in my 3000 or so posts I bet I have talked about rankings maybe 20 times. Now though I will certainly follow it much more closely. If D3Soccer.com cannot give us a list of where or what region the voters are from than these rankings should be monitored and scrutinized much more closely. I will be sure to start next season.

Welp... took me awhile to get back here due to my schedule, but sadly I did.

Honestly, I never saw you criticize my preparations for the final four. In fact, this is the first time I have read those comments and I both laugh and am a little irked.

First off, I over prepare for broadcasts. You can ask anyone who works with me or seems me prep. I probably do too much work. I am not going to waste my time explaining my prep work, but you can certainly ask the SIDs and others at the schools involved if I prepared or not and you are welcome to ask my colleague who saw the work in front of me.

Did I screw up some names. Damn right I did. Pisses me off to no end and it will be something that sticks with me for years to come. I am my own worst critic and when I make the smallest of mistakes that many don't even notice, I rip myself a part for it.

I am sorry you think I did a disservice to the players and teams involved, but I assure you that is not the comments I received from those and many others involved.

As for your scrutiny of the polls, sad to hear you think they need to be monitored and scrutinized more closely. I know people do their best to vote accordingly and to have someone feel they need to call out mistakes is disappointing. Is it perfect? Heck, no. It never is even at the top levels of DI. I, for one, post my ballot publicly in basketball because I felt it necessary due to the amount of time I dedicate to talking about the top teams and the number of questions I receive. However, I am a much more public face than others and I wouldn't want them feeling they were being unfairly monitored in their voting. That's for the editors of the websites to do.

That said, those voters probably don't really care what you think. I have to keep that in mind.

And with that... back to basketball.

Mr. Right, can you explain in what way Dave was not prepared?

I can tell you, from working with him at the last two championships, he's extremely prepared. I have copies of the broadcast cards to prove it.

We do a ton behind the scenes to prepare. In the week before the championship, I spent hours on the phone with more than half the coaches in the semifinals (not every coach was available so I couldn't get everyone).

Every broadcaster prepares differently, but I thought Dave was very prepared. And he knows DIII better than almost anyone, which goes a long way.



Well I did not go to the Newhouse School of Broadcasting up at Syracuse BUT I would think the most important thing for a Play by Play guy would be to get every player that he thinks will start a game or enter a game as a sub into his head with their #.... Memorized...Memorized to the point I could recite it to my uninterested family at Thanksgiving over a fake game in my head. If the family puts up a fight and demands that he stop then maybe they get Tofurky instead of the real bird. That should be prepared beforehand as well. I should be able to spit name and number out before I even arrive at the Final 4. That to me would be the first check off my list if I was preparing for a game. You know the four teams 2 WEEKS IN ADVANCE. It is only 4 teams and maybe 15-16 kids a team. 60 Names and #'s. Not difficult..Just like memorizing Names and Dates in 10th Grade American History. I do not care if he had 50 Note Cards in front of him or 100 if he keeps naming the wrong player for the wrong team and doing it more than once without correcting it most of the time than the number of note cards does not matter. That to me is being unprepared and that is what I meant by it. I am watching 3 Soccer Games over 2 Days so I REALLY do not care if said person knows the most about D3 Sports and Schools. I want 2 things in my Soccer Play by Play Guy....1. Accurate names and #'s and 2. A serious knowledge of soccer. Thats all I ask....Part Time NSN guys do this every weekend very easily..He seems to be ok with the game but was unprepared with the names and #'s. Like I said in my first post it was not really a big deal but kind of like a slap in the face or a disservice was the wording I used to the players and teams involved and their families watching back home or whatever. It kind of felt like ehhhh its D3 Soccer and I am a Basketball guy that knows enough about soccer to wing it and kind of memorize last minute...Kind of like that kid you see in your class 2 hours before a test cramming and complaining to everyone who walks by him in the library that he is going to fail and has his head in his half ass notes. Just came across like that whether accurate or not.

The color guy i really had no complaints but a little more tactical analysis would be nice during the game. If the color guy does not attempt that during a game that tells me he is not completely comfortable with the game at more than a working knowledge. I want him to tell me what Team A is doing and why and what Team B plans on doing to counter it. If he talked to these coaches FOR HOURS in the weeks before the game than certainly he got into what the game plan was besides just getting individual strengths and weaknesses. If he even got that. Now if the Coach will not give him that information I would request at least a copy of a recent game from the SID to get my own feel for what the team might try to do. However, if the analyst is not getting any of this information from the coach than what the hell is he talking to him about for hours? How much Uncle Fred drank at Thanksgiving and the usual insults he flung across the table to every trembling sober family member.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 14, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.


Hey he asked for my opinion and I gave it. If the other poster was not so supercilious to begin with I would have kept my opinion to myself. Figures it would be you to start the NFL style Blitz that will come my way. I know sometimes you Fundamentalist Christians have a problem with facts so for the record I never went to Westfield State. It is a fine school with beautiful facilities but it is not my alma mater. Just remember my fluff is always better than your stuff
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 14, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.


Hey he asked for my opinion and I gave it. If the other poster was not so supercilious to begin with I would have kept my opinion to myself. Figures it would be you to start the NFL style Blitz that will come my way. I know sometimes you Fundamentalist Christians have a problem with facts so for the record I never went to Westfield State. It is a fine school with beautiful facilities but it is not my alma mater. Just remember my fluff is always better than your stuff

Boy, you're a real peach, I bet you're popular at parties...
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on January 14, 2018, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 14, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.


Hey he asked for my opinion and I gave it. If the other poster was not so supercilious to begin with I would have kept my opinion to myself. Figures it would be you to start the NFL style Blitz that will come my way. I know sometimes you Fundamentalist Christians have a problem with facts so for the record I never went to Westfield State. It is a fine school with beautiful facilities but it is not my alma mater. Just remember my fluff is always better than your stuff

Boy, you're a real peach, I bet you're popular at parties...

how typical... someone tells you explain how someone messed up than you get destroyed for saying it. it is starting to become more noticeable on here every year. I was given a whole bunch of sass few years back for saying how I really felt. get over it. we all have our fair knowledge and experience ma in D3 Soccer. but you must do back it up.

and I would love to attend a party with both of you LOL
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on January 14, 2018, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 14, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.


Hey he asked for my opinion and I gave it. If the other poster was not so supercilious to begin with I would have kept my opinion to myself. Figures it would be you to start the NFL style Blitz that will come my way. I know sometimes you Fundamentalist Christians have a problem with facts so for the record I never went to Westfield State. It is a fine school with beautiful facilities but it is not my alma mater. Just remember my fluff is always better than your stuff

Boy, you're a real peach, I bet you're popular at parties...

how typical... someone tells you explain how someone messed up than you get destroyed for saying it. it is starting to become more noticeable on here every year. I was given a whole bunch of sass few years back for saying how I really felt. get over it. we all have our fair knowledge and experience ma in D3 Soccer. but you must do back it up.

and I would love to attend a party with both of you LOL

It's also possible to have opinions without being an a-hole about it too. That's the issue.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: firstplaceloser on January 14, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on January 14, 2018, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 14, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.


Hey he asked for my opinion and I gave it. If the other poster was not so supercilious to begin with I would have kept my opinion to myself. Figures it would be you to start the NFL style Blitz that will come my way. I know sometimes you Fundamentalist Christians have a problem with facts so for the record I never went to Westfield State. It is a fine school with beautiful facilities but it is not my alma mater. Just remember my fluff is always better than your stuff

Boy, you're a real peach, I bet you're popular at parties...

how typical... someone tells you explain how someone messed up than you get destroyed for saying it. it is starting to become more noticeable on here every year. I was given a whole bunch of sass few years back for saying how I really felt. get over it. we all have our fair knowledge and experience ma in D3 Soccer. but you must do back it up.

and I would love to attend a party with both of you LOL

It's also possible to have opinions without being an a-hole about it too. That's the issue.

both are guilty in this scenario for doing that. but i'm just saying don't ask for someone's opinion
then get angry about it. you would rather him lie to you ??
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: irapthor on January 14, 2018, 10:06:13 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on January 14, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on January 14, 2018, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on January 14, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 14, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on January 14, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Mr.Right -
When your alma mater, Westfield State, lets you commentate a game, please give us all a heads-up.  We'll let you know what we think.  In the meantime, taking cheap potshots at the NCAA D3 Soccer Final Four commentators is unbecoming...even for you.  IMO they did a fine job.  Thank you gentlemen for your work that weekend...well done.


Hey he asked for my opinion and I gave it. If the other poster was not so supercilious to begin with I would have kept my opinion to myself. Figures it would be you to start the NFL style Blitz that will come my way. I know sometimes you Fundamentalist Christians have a problem with facts so for the record I never went to Westfield State. It is a fine school with beautiful facilities but it is not my alma mater. Just remember my fluff is always better than your stuff

Boy, you're a real peach, I bet you're popular at parties...

how typical... someone tells you explain how someone messed up than you get destroyed for saying it. it is starting to become more noticeable on here every year. I was given a whole bunch of sass few years back for saying how I really felt. get over it. we all have our fair knowledge and experience ma in D3 Soccer. but you must do back it up.

and I would love to attend a party with both of you LOL

It's also possible to have opinions without being an a-hole about it too. That's the issue.

both are guilty in this scenario for doing that. but i'm just saying don't ask for someone's opinion
then get angry about it. you would rather him lie to you ??



I have a degree in broadcasting from a program that has produced a lot of talent, have done games for 25 years as both PBP and color in six different sports, do PA for three professional teams and have broadcast games with some pretty famous people in the broadcasting world. And I actually coach the sport of soccer. So I'm not going to defend my knowledge, my effort or my preparedness for the championship as an analysis. I also didn't find out I was doing the games officially until the Sunday before so I had 6 days to prepare.

Whether I agree with him or not, he made a comment and I just wanted to see where his head was at. That's why I asked what his criticism was.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 15, 2018, 06:22:58 AM
I apologize to the PBP and Color Analyst as I kind of went off the rails a bit in my response to your question. I do understand we are all just trying are best in life and in what we do. I do appreciate your efforts for the games and I really have no leg to stand on for criticizing announcers since I have never attempted or have any experience in announcing. It was just a bad day and I kind exaggerated my critiques because of the tone the PBP guy took with me a page or 2 back about rankings. My bad.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 15, 2018, 09:01:47 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on January 15, 2018, 06:22:58 AM
I apologize to the PBP and Color Analyst as I kind of went off the rails a bit in my response to your question. I do understand we are all just trying are best in life and in what we do. I do appreciate your efforts for the games and I really have no leg to stand on for criticizing announcers since I have never attempted or have any experience in announcing. It was just a bad day and I kind exaggerated my critiques because of the tone the PBP guy took with me a page or 2 back about rankings. My bad.

Just want to point out that I appreciate when people can take responsibility, and I think this is a good example. This isn't to minimize the earlier dialogue, but rather to second that we are all doing our best and that, hopefully, when we do go off the rails, we can own up to it as done here. +K
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Jim Matson on January 16, 2018, 03:32:53 AM
Good stuff!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 16, 2018, 03:44:58 PM
While I appreciate the apology, I do want to state a couple of things:

- I am not a basketball guy they hired to wing-it at soccer. If you listened to the broadcasts, you would have heard Ira and I talking about our playing careers. I played soccer nearly my entire young life, through college. I played all positions including in college though I was primarily a keeper. I know soccer pretty well. I just happen to focus in public on basketball a lot, but that doesn't mean I am not focused on soccer. I have been a past voter for D3soccer.com, I am a coach of my kids, I have coached in the past, and like I said... extensively playing career.

- Not knowing numbers and names off the top of my head is a hard thing to criticize. You should see what traditional, network especially, broadcasters have around them to assist - like a spotter for that information - which makes a huge difference. We didn't have that.

I glazed over the rest because I spotted the apology first.

We did our best. I am not proud of my performance by any stretch of the imagination, but then as I have said I would be critical of something you might not have even noticed and thus would not be happy.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 16, 2018, 03:46:26 PM
Let me also add, broadcasters of this event in the past were far less knowledgeable. I got involved more in soccer because the games were not being done well especially understanding how to say even a school name or mascot (like Amherst, for example).
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 16, 2018, 06:46:57 PM
Quote from: Jim Matson on January 16, 2018, 03:32:53 AM
Good stuff!

Hey! A Hiker sighting! Our benevolent overlord is watching, after all! :D

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 16, 2018, 03:44:58 PM
While I appreciate the apology, I do want to state a couple of things:

- I am not a basketball guy they hired to wing-it at soccer. If you listened to the broadcasts, you would have heard Ira and I talking about our playing careers. I played soccer nearly my entire young life, through college. I played all positions including in college though I was primarily a keeper. I know soccer pretty well. I just happen to focus in public on basketball a lot, but that doesn't mean I am not focused on soccer. I have been a past voter for D3soccer.com, I am a coach of my kids, I have coached in the past, and like I said... extensively playing career.

- Not knowing numbers and names off the top of my head is a hard thing to criticize. You should see what traditional, network especially, broadcasters have around them to assist - like a spotter for that information - which makes a huge difference. We didn't have that.

I glazed over the rest because I spotted the apology first.

We did our best. I am not proud of my performance by any stretch of the imagination, but then as I have said I would be critical of something you might not have even noticed and thus would not be happy.

Without getting into detail, as the broadcaster for (and a hardcore fan of) the team whose fans had the biggest bone to pick with Dave in particular vis-a-vis Final Four names and numbers, I will say that, on balance, I thought that Dave and Ira did a really solid job. That's especially true if they didn't have a spotter in the booth in Greensboro, which is something of which I wasn't aware. Having a spotter, if not multiple spotters, makes a huge difference in a broadcaster's ability to call a game in an outdoor stadium. It does help a little when you have an on-air partner, but even in a two-man operation you can't get into a situation in which you correct each other on the air too much. That creates bad chemistry, and it's a distraction to the viewer. Helping a PBP guy negotiate uniform numbers and who has done what on the field is the task of a spotter, and a good one is worth his weight in gold to you if you're the person who is calling the game.

I'm not saying that in an "all of us broadcasters need to stick together" spirit, either. Anyone who reads the CCIW basketball room knows that I can be pretty hard on broadcasters at times, especially student broadcasters of the too-much-exuberance-not-enough-homework ilk. And I can be hard on myself, too. But those who have never sat behind a mic for ninety minutes don't realize just how hard it is -- especially when you have to slog your way through a four-match marathon the way that Dave and Ira did on the first night in Greensboro, and especially when you don't have a spotter.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on January 17, 2018, 11:29:53 AM
In other news, great to see D3soccer recognize Max Lopez as Forward of the Year, well deserved. He was a dominant player this year who commanded the defense's full attention at all times. His in-the-air skills are unmatched in D3, as at least half his goals this year were headers from all kinds of angles and distances.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 17, 2018, 03:31:01 PM
I have never had the opportunity in all my years of broadcasting many, many sports (basketball, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, football, and more) to have a spotter. Never. And a lot of solo broadcasts to boot.

Sometime I will enjoy that luxury.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: irapthor on January 18, 2018, 11:01:43 AM
Heck, I announced a DI men's volleyball match solo last week...forget a spotter, I didn't even have a partner. For 2 hours.

You should have seen the NCAA soccer championship broadcasts 2 years ago vs. today. It's night and day. Just glad to be a part of it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: irapthor on January 18, 2018, 11:01:43 AM
Heck, I announced a DI men's volleyball match solo last week...forget a spotter, I didn't even have a partner. For 2 hours.

I've never had either a spotter or a partner for volleyball. I don't know about you, Ira, but volleyball is by far the hardest sport for me to call -- and I'm sure that D1 men play the game at a much faster pace than do D3 women. But as hard as PBP announcers have it for volleyball, live stats operators have it even worse.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 18, 2018, 04:57:56 PM
Bryan Waggoner has been named head coach (http://athletics.wheatoncollege.edu/sports/msoc/2017-18/releases/20180102hmxdt0) at Wheaton (MA). He guided a nascent Randolph program (created 2007) to a surprise Sweet 16 appearance in 2011, and saw Corey Sindle, who was an assistant at Wheaton this past year, earn All-American honors twice. Good for the Lyons!
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 18, 2018, 05:10:38 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: irapthor on January 18, 2018, 11:01:43 AM
Heck, I announced a DI men's volleyball match solo last week...forget a spotter, I didn't even have a partner. For 2 hours.

I've never had either a spotter or a partner for volleyball. I don't know about you, Ira, but volleyball is by far the hardest sport for me to call -- and I'm sure that D1 men play the game at a much faster pace than do D3 women. But as hard as PBP announcers have it for volleyball, live stats operators have it even worse.

In my volleyball experience (calling for Navy on occasion).. I've just treated it like tennis. Let the point play out and discuss how it ended or what happened. Maybe interject if the point is getting crazy. Just can't keep up with the real-time play.

Not sure that's the right way to do it or not.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 05:47:18 PM
That's how I mostly do it as well, Dave, with drop-in comments to note a particularly strong attack or a great save or a diving pancake on a point in progress. And even with that abbreviated PBP, I still end up doing more talking on a per-minute basis than I do in any other sport.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 18, 2018, 08:43:04 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 05:47:18 PM
That's how I mostly do it as well, Dave, with drop-in comments to note a particularly strong attack or a great save or a diving pancake on a point in progress. And even with that abbreviated PBP, I still end up doing more talking on a per-minute basis than I do in any other sport.

Yep - same deal. Slide into more chat than most. Really crazy how that happens.

Same happens with me in soccer. I try and let the game breathe, but man sometimes it just feels you don't want to go on for ever not talking. I remind myself that while we are video, not everyone is watching it like it is on their TVs... that an audio-hybrid call is appropriate... but it gets tough.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
It's a rhythm thing. Soccer, like basketball sometimes, is a game that has rhythm and flow to it just as much for a broadcaster as it does for a player. Sometimes when I'm calling a soccer match I get the weird feeling that this must be what it's like to be a rapper. I just get into that zone of calling pass to pass, with interceptions and tackles and identifying field spots part of the flow as well, and I almost feel as though I'm reciting what I'm seeing in iambic pentameter. It's the weirdest thing. I punctuate with time and score, because NPU typically doesn't have graphics (our playoff matches were an exception, as we used an outside production company for those), but even those after awhile become part of the rhythm for me. It's almost self-hypnotic.

Basketball has a bit of that, more so than other sports, but it's choppier and more broken up than soccer. Of course, compared to soccer, every sport (with the exception of hockey, which I've never called) is choppy and broken up. I've come to realize that it's part of the fun of calling soccer matches; it's almost a quasi-musical experience if, as I do, you're pretty diligent about identifying each pass whenever possible. The other wonderful thing is that, if you know the game and you can see a play unfolding to become a scoring opportunity, you can modulate your voice and build up to it in a more natural way than you can for other sports.

Of course, it would be different with a partner. I've never worked with a partner for soccer, but I have for football and basketball.

With volleyball, half the time I'm just trying to catch my breath.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 19, 2018, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
It's a rhythm thing. Soccer, like basketball sometimes, is a game that has rhythm and flow to it just as much for a broadcaster as it does for a player. Sometimes when I'm calling a soccer match I get the weird feeling that this must be what it's like to be a rapper. I just get into that zone of calling pass to pass, with interceptions and tackles and identifying field spots part of the flow as well, and I almost feel as though I'm reciting what I'm seeing in iambic pentameter. It's the weirdest thing. I punctuate with time and score, because NPU typically doesn't have graphics (our playoff matches were an exception, as we used an outside production company for those), but even those after awhile become part of the rhythm for me. It's almost self-hypnotic.

Basketball has a bit of that, more so than other sports, but it's choppier and more broken up than soccer. Of course, compared to soccer, every sport (with the exception of hockey, which I've never called) is choppy and broken up. I've come to realize that it's part of the fun of calling soccer matches; it's almost a quasi-musical experience if, as I do, you're pretty diligent about identifying each pass whenever possible. The other wonderful thing is that, if you know the game and you can see a play unfolding to become a scoring opportunity, you can modulate your voice and build up to it in a more natural way than you can for other sports.

Really interesting analysis, and one I agree with -- the rhythm of soccer is a large part of what I find appealing.

I have mentioned before on these boards (on various topics) that I was very much a late-bloomer in terms of appreciating soccer. I did not really "get" the game growing up -- I thought it somewhat monotonous, or perhaps "shallow and pedantic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpbdGnJbneE)". People aimlessly running around a field kicking a ball (my interpretation of the game) didn't seem very interesting. However, my family has relatives in the North West of the UK who are big Liverpool fans, and when my dad and I went over to visit them when I was 12, they took us to Anfield. It was a fun experience, but I still wasn't hooked. A couple of years later I found myself playing FIFA with friends on a ski trip. It wasn't until that point that I came to know more about LFC, the players, etc. and I found it intriguing -- almost like a puzzle, if you will, as there was not a ton of media interest in the U.S. at the time. I have been back to the UK twice since then, 2014 and 2017, went to Anfield and White Hart Lane the first time and Selhurst Park and Vicarage Road the second, and really appreciated the experiences -- going to a professional game in Europe is like no other sport experience I've ever had.

I came to enjoy soccer once I began to understand how impressive certain parts of the game are. Hitting a shot upper 90, whether placed or powered, not only takes a good bit of skill but is also visually appealing. What really drew me to soccer, however, was my understanding that the game is (usually) moving: no timeouts, no TV breaks (aside from half), and a certain flow to the game that is unique. The fact that the clock is always running (particularly in pro matches) is emblematic of this. Watching an NFL or MLB game on TV is a chore to me -- my attention span does not appreciate the consistent stop-start nature of the NFL and the innumerable breaks, nor do I enjoy watching a batter go in and out of the batter's box. The NHL is probably the American sports league I watch the most, and I do follow the Bruins, although I am by no means a diehard. That said, I can watch soccer all day -- whatever the level, whoever the teams.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 19, 2018, 03:53:27 PM
I should mention that I can find plenty to enjoy about all eight sports (football, men's and women's soccer, women's volleyball, men's and women's basketball, baseball, and softball) that I announce. I don't think I could do justice to my job if I didn't.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on January 22, 2018, 10:44:16 PM
So for those of you that have been following (or anyone else that is interested).  Tufts has put out the last three episodes of the documentary following this team's season.  These three detail the program's first NESCAC Championship, the two NCAA shootout victories, and then the heart-breaking loss to Brandeis.  The last episode has all of the seniors talk about their feelings losing in OT and what the program meant to them (that part starts around 10 minutes in after the guys spoof radio show).  It gives a really good look into how much being a part of these programs means to the guys for everyone that never had a chance to play or for those of us wishing we could go back. 

Episode 13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCvPFFIcgY&t=3s

Episode 14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1D6SBm4yM

Episode 15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unImbWrWdZw

And if Conor Coleman's prediction at the end that "now we have finally cleared out the deadweight" is true then the rest of the country better look out. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 23, 2018, 09:16:18 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on January 22, 2018, 10:44:16 PM
So for those of you that have been following (or anyone else that is interested).  Tufts has put out the last three episodes of the documentary following this team's season.  These three detail the program's first NESCAC Championship, the two NCAA shootout victories, and then the heart-breaking loss to Brandeis.  The last episode has all of the seniors talk about their feelings losing in OT and what the program meant to them (that part starts around 10 minutes in after the guys spoof radio show).  It gives a really good look into how much being a part of these programs means to the guys for everyone that never had a chance to play or for those of us wishing we could go back. 

Episode 13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCvPFFIcgY&t=3s

Episode 14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1D6SBm4yM

Episode 15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unImbWrWdZw

And if Conor Coleman's prediction at the end that "now we have finally cleared out the deadweight" is true then the rest of the country better look out.

After seeing the Sweet 16 recapped in Episode 14, I had half-guessed that there wouldn't be a recap of the next game. Personally I wouldn't have blamed you all for not wanting to re-live that game, regardless of my interest. Fair play for seeing the series to its conclusion, and to the seniors for providing genuine reflection, and really well-done on the cinematography front.

Best part of the series recapped in the final episode: Kevin Halliday dancing to the Bro Safari/Dillon Francis song.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on January 24, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on January 23, 2018, 09:16:18 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on January 22, 2018, 10:44:16 PM
So for those of you that have been following (or anyone else that is interested).  Tufts has put out the last three episodes of the documentary following this team's season.  These three detail the program's first NESCAC Championship, the two NCAA shootout victories, and then the heart-breaking loss to Brandeis.  The last episode has all of the seniors talk about their feelings losing in OT and what the program meant to them (that part starts around 10 minutes in after the guys spoof radio show).  It gives a really good look into how much being a part of these programs means to the guys for everyone that never had a chance to play or for those of us wishing we could go back. 

Episode 13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCvPFFIcgY&t=3s

Episode 14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1D6SBm4yM

Episode 15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unImbWrWdZw

And if Conor Coleman's prediction at the end that "now we have finally cleared out the deadweight" is true then the rest of the country better look out.

After seeing the Sweet 16 recapped in Episode 14, I had half-guessed that there wouldn't be a recap of the next game. Personally I wouldn't have blamed you all for not wanting to re-live that game, regardless of my interest. Fair play for seeing the series to its conclusion, and to the seniors for providing genuine reflection, and really well-done on the cinematography front.

Best part of the series recapped in the final episode: Kevin Halliday dancing to the Bro Safari/Dillon Francis song.

I have heard through the grapevine that Brandeis filmed the whole year as well, and is putting out a recap of the whole year. Not sure what it'll be like though.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 25, 2018, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on January 22, 2018, 10:44:16 PM
So for those of you that have been following (or anyone else that is interested).  Tufts has put out the last three episodes of the documentary following this team's season.  These three detail the program's first NESCAC Championship, the two NCAA shootout victories, and then the heart-breaking loss to Brandeis.  The last episode has all of the seniors talk about their feelings losing in OT and what the program meant to them (that part starts around 10 minutes in after the guys spoof radio show).  It gives a really good look into how much being a part of these programs means to the guys for everyone that never had a chance to play or for those of us wishing we could go back. 

Episode 13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCvPFFIcgY&t=3s

Episode 14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1D6SBm4yM

Episode 15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unImbWrWdZw

And if Conor Coleman's prediction at the end that "now we have finally cleared out the deadweight" is true then the rest of the country better look out.


I watched the whole Episode 15 and I must say you have piqued my interest as now I kind of want start from the beginning...like a netflix series..Can you throw up a link to all of them if possible. Couple of observations just from this Episode 15

1. Whoever is behind the scenes doing all the editing / cutting / producing and whatnot has some talent and hopefully gets into this field whatever it might be.

2. Halliday and Zazzali are complete goofballs but in a funny way. Very quick and witty and they basically finish off e/o sentences. I am guessing when Zazzali is missing then Halliday has some great conversations with his shadow. If they could find a 3rd from the squad who can do impressions then maybe they could bring the whole show on the road. Maybe Zazzali fell asleep during geography class or the History of Indochina but I am hoping for the sake of the credibility of Tufts admissions that Zazzali was a Baseball Tip.

3. Johnson must just sweep the women off their feet with his exanimate personality. It is really hard to tell because of the editing but usually GK's are the craziest of the bunch in my experience. Maybe he is just not as quick as his peers or was a little camera shy. No all kidding aside he seems like a really good kid.

4. Zinner is mad serious. Looks like he has his game face on 24-7.

5. Kulcsar looks the complete opposite sounds completely burnt even when sober.

6. Coleman I still say might need a mild sedative before any serious interviews. I have trouble focusing in on what he is saying because I feel like he is almost like a spastic octopus and I am waiting for an arm or leg to come flying at the camera. No in all seriousness he seems to be like an octopus because they are known to have 3 hearts. He is seems like a true leader and willing to defend his teammates at any moment..


All good kids and I probably have it all wrong but anyway send the link if you can
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on January 25, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Mr. Right,
All of the videos were made by Dexter Eichhorst, which is why he didn't get as much screen time as the other seniors. 
Here is the link to the rest of the series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVR3PP-bb84&list=PLwNLoOR6fMWwf2ML1jxA8YGlKUAOuxP6e
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on January 29, 2018, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on January 25, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Mr. Right,
All of the videos were made by Dexter Eichhorst, which is why he didn't get as much screen time as the other seniors. 
Here is the link to the rest of the series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVR3PP-bb84&list=PLwNLoOR6fMWwf2ML1jxA8YGlKUAOuxP6e

Ok great thanks will take a look when I get enough time to watch them all in succession.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 29, 2018, 09:35:47 PM
Surfing YouTube this evening and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYCLuz_Jsnc) came up as a suggestion. (Have to say it, too, is well done.) Guess watching all 15 episodes does that to your viewing suggestions.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on January 31, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: rolldeisroll on January 24, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
I have heard through the grapevine that Brandeis filmed the whole year as well, and is putting out a recap of the whole year. Not sure what it'll be like though.

This appears to be true -- two trailers were brought to my attention today. It was also expressed that, much like is the case with Tufts, the Brandeis players read these boards religiously, which augments PaulNewman's opinion. Not a surprise, of course, but still worth noting!

Have to say, objectively very well done on the production side of things:

Brandeis vs. West. Conn (preview) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3yLJujBR_w&authuser=2)
Brandeis vs. Emory (preview) (https://youtu.be/G_fZ563fUCA)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on February 03, 2018, 02:03:13 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on January 31, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
Quote from: rolldeisroll on January 24, 2018, 01:42:00 PM
I have heard through the grapevine that Brandeis filmed the whole year as well, and is putting out a recap of the whole year. Not sure what it'll be like though.

This appears to be true -- two trailers were brought to my attention today. It was also expressed that, much like is the case with Tufts, the Brandeis players read these boards religiously, which augments PaulNewman's opinion. Not a surprise, of course, but still worth noting!

Have to say, objectively very well done on the production side of things:

Brandeis vs. West. Conn (preview) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3yLJujBR_w&authuser=2)
Brandeis vs. Emory (preview) (https://youtu.be/G_fZ563fUCA)



Bloots with the tease....In 53 seconds you can see how much Brandeis is going to miss Hernandez. Tremendous leader and played with some serious heart and toughness...He is going to be a tough one to replace..
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on February 03, 2018, 02:04:58 PM
Also, thanks to D3soccer.com for posting that story on Matt Stauffer. Tremendous mental toughness and you do not see many players like him. Such a tragic loss at the age of 22.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on February 11, 2018, 06:10:53 PM
Just saw that Brandeis put out their last trailer for their film...this one takes a look at their win at Emory...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfElmgVluPk/?taken-by=brandeissoccer

Just from looking at it, you can see that they are very close as teammates. Hennessey and Flahive play off each other well. Who is that on the narration though? Sounds familiar

Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on February 18, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
This may be my longest drought from the boards but I have been keeping tabs on the recruiting trail for teams around the region and stumbled upon this video for Lycoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aisIkaQjDqc

I imagine this is a recruiting video and it's well done. It is fascinating to see all these schools getting into this sort of tactic with documentaries and filming throughout the season. That has to be attractive if you're a recruit looking at schools. Something as simple as this could be that edge to the overall "WOW" factor these programs are trying to produce.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on March 04, 2018, 09:32:15 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on February 18, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
This may be my longest drought from the boards but I have been keeping tabs on the recruiting trail for teams around the region and stumbled upon this video for Lycoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aisIkaQjDqc

I imagine this is a recruiting video and it's well done. It is fascinating to see all these schools getting into this sort of tactic with documentaries and filming throughout the season. That has to be attractive if you're a recruit looking at schools. Something as simple as this could be that edge to the overall "WOW" factor these programs are trying to produce.

Interesting. They won the battle but lost the war. Good rivalry with Messiah.. Nice to have a conference game to circle each year.  Rivalries are what brings the best out of sports. Back in the 80s Celtics versus Lakers was what us Boston fans looked forward to as well as the players. Nobody wanted Houston Rockets Vs Celtics in the finals..ugh. too bad lycoming  was not able to make it to the final 4 and play Messiah again...that would have been intense
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on March 05, 2018, 09:03:16 AM
The quality of the Lycoming video is impressive. It also shows so clearly in the final segment how tall central defender Thomas actually is: he towers over the rest of his team. He's a big loss for 2018.

Except for the brief glimpse of the "payback" list on the whiteboard, however, you'd hardly know that Lycoming plays anyone other than Messiah--when they so obviously do play a lot of other top teams from this region. I can't imagine any other team, anywhere, making a video so focused on beating one specific team. Not even the Falcon's former conference rival, Etown, ever did such a thing, to the best of my knowledge. Does anyone know of a similar phenomenon elsewhere?

That fact underscores another fact, namely, that the Falcons always have a target on their backs, every time they take the field--even in the recent downturn when they failed to advance past the Sweet Sixteen or even qualify for the tournament. That says a lot about the toughness of the 2017 team, which (honestly) wasn't as deep in talent as the 2016 team (the one that Calvin defeated in Grantham) and was often having to overcome deficits on the scoreboard. Lycoming was probably more talented overall this past year. They took care of business in Grantham, yet they didn't make it to Greensboro. Maybe their next video needs to be a bit less single minded?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: luckylefty on March 07, 2018, 07:38:58 PM
In fairness, they play in the same conference. Their game against Haverford, or someone else is obviously important but a conference foe will always get more energy and emotion.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on March 08, 2018, 03:25:39 PM
Quote from: luckylefty on March 07, 2018, 07:38:58 PM
In fairness, they play in the same conference. Their game against Haverford, or someone else is obviously important but a conference foe will always get more energy and emotion.

I agree with you about aiming at the big conference rival, lefty, but making such a single-minded video does strike me as different, to say the least. Some time ago there was talk here about the very aggressive video produced by Rowan University. The Lycoming video seems equally aggressive to me, but where Rowan was (sort of) crowning themselves as (hopeful) national champions vs all comers, Lycoming is targeting one team. It's as if Rowan had focused on (say) RU-N or RU-C or Montclair, to the virtual exclusion of everyone else on their schedule.

I can't claim to have seen it all, in terms of promotional videos. Am I missing something? Has anyone else made a video putting one particular opponent in the bulls eye?
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on March 08, 2018, 04:54:42 PM
Quote from: Falconer on March 08, 2018, 03:25:39 PM
I agree with you about aiming at the big conference rival, lefty, but making such a single-minded video does strike me as different, to say the least. Some time ago there was talk here about the very aggressive video produced by Rowan University. The Lycoming video seems equally aggressive to me, but where Rowan was (sort of) crowning themselves as (hopeful) national champions vs all comers, Lycoming is targeting one team. It's as if Rowan had focused on (say) RU-N or RU-C or Montclair, to the virtual exclusion of everyone else on their schedule.

I can't claim to have seen it all, in terms of promotional videos. Am I missing something? Has anyone else made a video putting one particular opponent in the bulls eye?

Falconer, I have to say that I didn't think it was all that single-minded as far as Messiah's involvement. Sure, it focuses on the conference championship, and makes mention of Messiah losing its only game on Shoemaker this past year, but the way I read these comments I figured that it was a full-blown season review or documentary where the team aimed at Messiah from day one and then rolled the credits after the final whistle of the conference championship, which I would agree would be a bit peculiar as a combination. And while it did do the latter, it was, instead, a 3 1/2-odd minute video that was in my view more about Lycoming overcoming (rhyme unintended) their own doubters after a mediocre season last year. Messiah was definitely acknowledged and present, of course, but I didn't think they were as front-and-center as I expected going into the video. I will agree that the Rowan video was pretty aggressive and that rubbed me the wrong way, but maybe this video is more similar to the Rowan video than I thought. I don't know -- I guess I was just expecting are more "bulls-eye" video based on what I read here.

Regarding the subject matter, there are a number of D3 videos that review grudge matches and contain "locker room talk" (not of the Trumpian variety). The Tufts series from this past year features a review of the Amherst game in which the rivalry is definitely front-and-center and the players give candid accounts of how they feel. Brandeis' trailer of their battle against Emory makes mention of and even features a coach talking about their opponents' (perceived) dismissal of them. A locker room speech to get the guys fired up? Sure, but the point is that these things do exist elsewhere.

As for MAF, I have a feeling that you may have been more involved than simply "stumbling upon" the video. ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on March 08, 2018, 10:50:15 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on February 18, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
This may be my longest drought from the boards but I have been keeping tabs on the recruiting trail for teams around the region and stumbled upon this video for Lycoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aisIkaQjDqc

I imagine this is a recruiting video and it's well done. It is fascinating to see all these schools getting into this sort of tactic with documentaries and filming throughout the season. That has to be attractive if you're a recruit looking at schools. Something as simple as this could be that edge to the overall "WOW" factor these programs are trying to produce.

I found it interesting that a program would devote the overwhelming majority of a "recruiting" video to beating one team in one game.  However, in the 32 times Lycoming has played Messiah, Lycoming has won just 5 times, so I suppose I can somewhat understand why a single win against Messiah would demand the kind of attention given to it in this video.  I do think it underscores the obvious...many teams use Messiah as a measuring stick of where they think they might stand on the national stage...to the point that even a single win might become an internal rallying cry of sorts.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rolldeisroll on March 09, 2018, 04:27:34 PM
Brandeis put out this video before the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight games, but like it has been said, it wasn't necessarily targeting anyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5ZWktUVVa8

I don't know how much you want to target a certain team, as it gives them "bulletin board" material, if you know what I mean. I don't see any reason in giving another team more motivation then they already have. Sure, make the video, and distribute it amongst the players to get them hyped up. But no need to give Messiah any MORE reason to get up for next years game.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on March 12, 2018, 05:54:25 PM
Quote from: rolldeisroll on March 09, 2018, 04:27:34 PM
Brandeis put out this video before the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight games, but like it has been said, it wasn't necessarily targeting anyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5ZWktUVVa8

I don't know how much you want to target a certain team, as it gives them "bulletin board" material, if you know what I mean. I don't see any reason in giving another team more motivation then they already have. Sure, make the video, and distribute it amongst the players to get them hyped up. But no need to give Messiah any MORE reason to get up for next years game.

Where is the full vid? Is this just a tease or is this it? I will check out the Lycoming 1 now
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on March 13, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 12, 2018, 05:54:25 PM
Where is the full vid? Is this just a tease or is this it? I will check out the Lycoming 1 now

I don't know; I was told it was coming soon but that was a while ago. Hope to still see it.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 24, 2018, 04:44:18 PM
I'm a Messiah fan, but I don't see the big deal with the Lycoming video.  The video was made to commemorate their conference championship win, not the season as a whole or even any part of their season. At least that's how I took it. So by definition it is focused on their championship final opponent, Messiah. This was not their season highlight video (that can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU82qM5wn-U). And does anyone know that it is in fact a recruiting video or is that just speculation?  The video was done by a "professional" which doesn't seem to be the case for their season highlight videos, so maybe it was done partially for recruiting purposes. It would be a cool video to show recruits, but who knows if it was produced primarily or solely for that purpose.  (BTW, Lycoming's season highlight videos are posted by one of their asst. coaches--not sure if he's the one who produces them).

Ohh, and that wasn't a payback list on the whiteboard.  They apparently named their season the PAYBACK SEASON, but the list of teams was simply their scheduled opponents from 9/27 through 10/17 (the day when that clip of the video was filmed) and seems to be numbering the victims during their winning streak (which ended that day to Messiah at home). They wouldn't put Widener or Albright on a payback list--they hadn't lost to Widener since 2009, winning the last four encounters, and hadn't lost to Albright in the previous two seasons.

Only watched a little of the Tufts' videos, but it was an interesting glimpse into the life of D-III student-athletes.   If Brandeis ever publishes more to go along with the Believe - Documentary Intro, I will be interested to watch that.
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on March 30, 2018, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on February 18, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
This may be my longest drought from the boards but I have been keeping tabs on the recruiting trail for teams around the region and stumbled upon this video for Lycoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aisIkaQjDqc

I imagine this is a recruiting video and it's well done. It is fascinating to see all these schools getting into this sort of tactic with documentaries and filming throughout the season. That has to be attractive if you're a recruit looking at schools. Something as simple as this could be that edge to the overall "WOW" factor these programs are trying to produce.

I wouldn't say this is a recruiting video and also not sure what all the hooplah is about. I agree with FW that I don't think it's a knock on Messiah. Looks like the video was filmed over the course of the season so who knows what the angle would have been if the Falcons had won both matches. It does look well done though and I am sure they will use it for recruiting, but I do not think that was the sole purpose of this video. Most recruiting videos we see, like Eastern or Messiah have on their websites, tend to focus on the benefits of the program and why a student-athlete should consider the school. This video has none of those components. 
Title: Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on April 02, 2018, 02:47:44 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 30, 2018, 10:28:27 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on February 18, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
This may be my longest drought from the boards but I have been keeping tabs on the recruiting trail for teams around the region and stumbled upon this video for Lycoming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aisIkaQjDqc

I imagine this is a recruiting video and it's well done. It is fascinating to see all these schools getting into this sort of tactic with documentaries and filming throughout the season. That has to be attractive if you're a recruit looking at schools. Something as simple as this could be that edge to the overall "WOW" factor these programs are trying to produce.

I wouldn't say this is a recruiting video and also not sure what all the hooplah is about. I agree with FW that I don't think it's a knock on Messiah. Looks like the video was filmed over the course of the season so who knows what the angle would have been if the Falcons had won both matches. It does look well done though and I am sure they will use it for recruiting, but I do not think that was the sole purpose of this video. Most recruiting videos we see, like Eastern or Messiah have on their websites, tend to focus on the benefits of the program and why a student-athlete should consider the school. This video has none of those components.


Agree Shoots....Very well done..I really like that video and thought it was well done. I remember watching that game on the stream and it was pretty entertaining. I forgot how much it was pouring buckets..Good game