Top 25 talk

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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: PeterEscobar on August 28, 2017, 07:49:57 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on August 28, 2017, 08:35:53 AM
And all because you are a D1 transfer doesn't guarantee immediate success. But, like I said, we'll see what they look like at the beginning of December. I still think they'll be ranked outside the Top 15.
Agree just because someone is a DI transfer, it does not guarantee success. However, if just one of the three is an impact player you are looking at a team with two all-conference seniors, a point guard who just won six straight NCAA tournament games and another impact player. In the NEWMAC, which looks to have MIT and Springfield competing on a regional level and WPI seemingly always a lock for 20 wins, that bodes well.

They've got a great coach and tons of experience - Comenale is also a much better player than he needed to show last year.  I think he's one of those guys who can really excel in a system where they're counting on him to score more.  He can shoot lights out, but he's also long and quick and has a pretty good handle.  Obviously, it's a huge drop off losing all those guys and I won't be giving them the benefit of the doubt to start the year, but that cupboard is not entirely bare.
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Greek Tragedy

Augustana arguably lost more the previous year than Babson  did this past year and Augustana was ranked #18 in this past season's preseason poll.
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nescac1

I do think Babson's schedule is weaker than it appears on paper.  Last year was the deepest and most balanced I've seen in New England, as reflected by the tourney results (5 of the top 11 in the final poll, four teams in the elite 8, two in the final four, and the national champion, hard to do much better).  But a LOT of teams were unusually senior-heavy.  The region will be fairly wide open this season, I think, with lots of surprises.

WPI is usually sollid but really trending down ... 17-9 was their worst year in awhile, and the two guys who graduated were the top scorers and rebounders on the team; no double-digit scorers returning.  Endicott's whole starting five graduated and they figure to be WAY down.  Amherst graduated six of its top eight guys (although still have plenty of young talent on hand as always).  Becker should be pretty good but does lose one of its two stars from a top-heavy team.  Bates loses its twin big men.  MIT should be good but there is usually unexpected roster attrition due to the academic load there, so who knows.  Brandeis has a great incoming frosh class but really only one strong returning player and probably won't pose much of a threat.  Tufts will still be tough, but unlikely to be as good as last season.  At Bowdoin could be a very tough game this year and Springfield I think is a major sleeper and is my pick to win NEWMAC if everyone is back -- Jake Ross is absolutely legit, I thought as a frosh he was even better than Flannery,  and the entire roster returns including a really talented rising sophomore class that should be much tougher this year.  But the bottom half of NEWMAC looks very weak.   And Babson avoids three of what I consider the top-five preseason squads in the region: Williams, Middlebury, and Nichols. 

Babson should still be able to post a gaudy W-L record even if they are significantly down from last year's elite level, especially if they have better injury luck.  It was really amazing that Babson was able to pull out that title run with two starters out with injuries ... they basically played six guys down the stretch last year, and this year with the impressive additions figure to be deeper, at least.  They probably warrant a top 10-12 pre-season ranking, something in that range, I figure. 

PeterEscobar

Quote from: nescac1 on August 29, 2017, 01:16:39 PM
I do think Babson's schedule is weaker than it appears on paper.  Last year was the deepest and most balanced I've seen in New England, as reflected by the tourney results (5 of the top 11 in the final poll, four teams in the elite 8, two in the final four, and the national champion, hard to do much better).  But a LOT of teams were unusually senior-heavy.  The region will be fairly wide open this season, I think, with lots of surprises.

WPI is usually sollid but really trending down ... 17-9 was their worst year in awhile, and the two guys who graduated were the top scorers and rebounders on the team; no double-digit scorers returning.  Endicott's whole starting five graduated and they figure to be WAY down.  Amherst graduated six of its top eight guys (although still have plenty of young talent on hand as always).  Becker should be pretty good but does lose one of its two stars from a top-heavy team.  Bates loses its twin big men.  MIT should be good but there is usually unexpected roster attrition due to the academic load there, so who knows.  Brandeis has a great incoming frosh class but really only one strong returning player and probably won't pose much of a threat.  Tufts will still be tough, but unlikely to be as good as last season.  At Bowdoin could be a very tough game this year and Springfield I think is a major sleeper and is my pick to win NEWMAC if everyone is back -- Jake Ross is absolutely legit, I thought as a frosh he was even better than Flannery,  and the entire roster returns including a really talented rising sophomore class that should be much tougher this year.  But the bottom half of NEWMAC looks very weak.   And Babson avoids three of what I consider the top-five preseason squads in the region: Williams, Middlebury, and Nichols. 

Babson should still be able to post a gaudy W-L record even if they are significantly down from last year's elite level, especially if they have better injury luck.  It was really amazing that Babson was able to pull out that title run with two starters out with injuries ... they basically played six guys down the stretch last year, and this year with the impressive additions figure to be deeper, at least.  They probably warrant a top 10-12 pre-season ranking, something in that range, I figure.
Agree pretty much across the board here, except for Ross being better than Flannery but that's neither here nor there in this thread. Definitely was not lobbying for Babson to be ranked #1 again haha but definitely agree with 10-12 ranking seeming fair to start the season.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on August 29, 2017, 12:53:17 PM
Augustana arguably lost more the previous year than Babson  did this past year and Augustana was ranked #18 in this past season's preseason poll.

This is a good point, but also raises an interesting point of view: I didn't vote for Augustana in the preseason because I felt they lost far too much. I, and others of the same mentality, was offset by some who ranked them very highly.

I would also say that the big difference between what Augustana lost (in numbers) is that Babson lost a far better individual (player of the year) which I think makes a bigger impact potentially. Not positive how I will vote for Babson because I haven't broken it all down, but the loss of players plus Flannery is a key factor.

And yeah... not sure I can put Ross on the same level as Flannery.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

sac

#10985
Augustana entered the tournament unranked, they were #18 in the pre-season poll

Greek Tragedy

Dave,

If I had a vote, I wouldn't have voted for Augie either. As for quality over quantity, Babson had the POTY, but Augie did graduate 1st and 2nd team All-Americans.  ;D
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BaboNation

This is my first ever post, though I've followed the board since I first came upon it a few years ago.
(There are a LOT of great posters on this board, and the D3 Hoops crew is first-rate).

I'm a Babson grad from many years ago and I'm on Cloud 9.  Never in my wildest dreams did I ever envision the possibility of the school ever winning a national championship in basketball.  Athletically it was always highly competitive in soccer, but basketball ... not so much.   And the facilities back in the day, were less than ideal to put it charitably.

I grew up with Peavey Gym, which at the time was probably on a par with the typical middle school gym in terms of seating and general facilities.  It was pretty bad.  I remember the side with no seats had about 4 or 5 feet between the line and the unforgiving masonry wall.  Many people (even students back then) don't know that in the Celtics heydey they held training camps at the college (from 1959-1966 - all championship years) and even had an exhibition game there.   I can only imagine what Russell, Cousy, etc. thought about the showers.

As for this past year's team I have to start - where else - with Joey Flannery.   I only got to see him play live once (I live out of state), but I've watched him play numerous times through game streaming.  A player of the year?  At Babson?  If I hadn't seen it myself I never would have believed it.

In Flannery's first 2 years his skill level was obvious but I don't think the surrounding cast and tempo best suited his game.   I'm not trying to diminish any players but it was a much slower paced offense which featured positioning the bigs at the low post and methodically working for shots around the rim.  Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but Joey's game is best when the action is faster and the points come from anywhere on the court.

The addition of Nelson to the roster was huge.  He could post up or take his man outside.  My only fear ever with him was his penchant to get it early foul trouble on a team with little depth.

Bradley Jacks really came into his own as well.  When he went down I thought Babson would have all it could handle just winning the NEWMAC post-season, let alone making any deep run in the NCAAs.  When he returned in March he was obviously still hurt, a shell of the defensive force he was in December and early January.

Comenale was a perfect fit.  Great in the up-tempo offense, helps spacing on the floor, can't be left alone above the arc, and plays better when the games get late.

Bohmiller was a tough loss.  I knew they'd miss his offense but I especially thought it would cripple the team's already limited depth.

As the team moved deeper and deeper into the post-season I kept thinking, yeah it has been a great season but if only they had a healthy Bradley and Sam they'd really be able to make some noise.

When they fell behind Whitman by 25 I felt as I did in the Superbowl (lifelong Pats fan here) ... it was a great run but this is where it ends.  I turned off the game til the start of the second half and watched the epic comeback in awe.  Everyone contributed but Rice had the best game I've ever seen him play.

In the title game I thought Augustana's depth might wear Babson down, particularly if Nelson got in foul trouble.  With a lead late in the game I permitted myself to imagine a national championship.  And then I suffered through the missed front-end free throws, including one from Mr. Automatic!  Even after Joey's block and a second on the clock I worried until the final whistle.

Magical.

As for the future, I have no illusions about Babson's prospects.  Flannery was a once in a generation transcendent talent for the school.  Regionally and nationally there are powerhouses that seem destined to be in the mix for years to come.  Some of them were on Babson's run in '17: Amherst, Whitman, and Augustana.

If I were forced to make a pick for 2018 champion it would be Augustana.  They have a solid program, can play with anyone in the country and they are due.


John Gleich

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 17, 2017, 11:40:18 AM
Let's keep something in mind... no team... NO TEAM... has gone from preseason to championship as the number one team in every poll in the history of the D3hoops.com MBB Top 25. That isn't a knock on the voters. That is an indication of a number of things including how hard it is to rank teams, how many top teams there are, and how it could be anyone's night at any given time in men's basketball.

Only three schools have started and ended the year at #1 too:

2004-05 - UWSP
2007-08 - Wash U
2008-09 - Wash U

And 12 years, the title was won by a team that hadn't been ranked #1 all season (until they hoisted the Walnut and Bronze).
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

NCAA appearances: 2018, '15, '14, '13, '12, '11, '10, '09, '08, '07, '05, '04, '03, '00, 1997

WIAC/WSUC Champs: 2015, '14, '13, '11, '09, '07, '05, '03, '02, '01, '00, 1993, '92, '87, '86, '85, '84, '83, '82, '69, '61, '57, '48, '42, '37, '36, '35, '33, '18

Twitter: @JohnGleich

4samuy

#10989
Not sure how much they follow D 3 Hoops, but just got a peek at Street and Smiths preseason top 10.

1. Babson (31-2)
2. Ramapo (26-3)
3. Williams (23-9)
4. Whitman (31-1)
5. Augustana (24-9)
6. Wisconsin Whitewater (22-7)
7. Hanover (26-4)
8. St. Johns (19-9)
9. Swarthmore (23-6)
10. North Central (18-11)

nescac1

#10990
That's actually pretty solid -- better than Street and Smiths usually does, I'd say.  Babson at number 1 seems kind of nuts, I know they have some interesting guys coming in but in light of losing Flannery plus some other firepower, they belong in the bottom of the top ten, at best, probably a bit lower.  Ramapo is also too high.  I'd say that Whitman, Augustana, Williams, Whitewater, Hanover, and North Central are all rock-solid choices for top ten slots, and all will almost surely be in the D3hoops top ten to start the season.  Ramapo, St. Johns, and Swarthmore are also solid choices who will start the year, likely, as top-15 D3hoops squads at worst.  The biggest omissions are Marietta, River Falls and Wash U.  I'd probably put those three in the top ten in place of Swarthmore, Babson and St. John's, but certainly, all of Street & Smith's inclusions in the top ten teams are defensible, even if the order is a bit off.   Other than Babson, all of the squads pegged by Street and Smith return most, if not all, of their firepower from last season. 

WUPHF

#10991
Hanover at No. 7 seems a little generous, but they did get two impressive wins in the tourney and return a lot.  Who knows?

nescac1

Hanover seems legit to me -- a four loss, Sweet 16 team that loses only one guy and features a likely first-team (at worst second) pre-season all American ...

AndOne

Babson lost 3 guys who started in the championship game. Still #1 after that? Don't think so.

Re Hanover - keep in mind they were lucky to win their 2nd round game by a single point over a North Central team that was playing without one of it's pre-season All-Americans. A good team that will have a high number of wins due to playing in a weaker conference. But, number 7 in the country, NOT!

WUPHF

Hanover does lose a 14 points, 7 rebounds per game center in Corey Muchmore.  They may have someone else ready to step up, but this is a big loss.

I'll simply say that I do not know.