Author Topic: 2017 Season - National Perspective  (Read 106216 times)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #705 on: December 12, 2017, 02:39:50 pm »
Setting aside sports that are sponsored by fewer than half of the UAA's schools (e.g., wrestling and women's golf), you have to go all the way back to the 2009-10 school year to find NYU winning a UAA title in anything (for the record, it was men's cross-country).

Not so -- the Violets won the 2010-11 men's soccer title. http://uaasports.info/sports/msoc/MScoccer_Records.pdf

OK, fine ... six years and counting. ;)

It should be a posting requirement that all of us admit something we had wrong at least once a year.

I'm saving that for a much bigger mistake than being off by a year in the ongoing NYU title drought. ;)

All of the nit-picking (and I was absolutely right in terms of my nit-picking of course) obscures that NYU actually is an interesting case, for a number of reasons....

-- Located in the heart of arguably the greatest city on the planet

Oh, I'll argue that with you all the livelong day, if you'd like. :D

-- No campus really

-- Soccer teams practices and plays far away from "campus"

-- Large enrollment but virtually no interest in terms of athletic teams in terms of student support (and that's in comparison to a slew of or even most D3 schools where the majority of the student body -- large, medium, small or tiny -- have not thought about their school's men's (or women's) soccer program for even 10 seconds

-- The costs which even compared to other "I can't believe college costs 70K a year" places is astronomical

The only two UAA campuses I've been to are the U of C and Wash U, so I can't speak as to the location of the athletics facilities of the other six schools. For all I know, NYU soccer may be an outlier, in both senses of the term (distant from campus, and unique in being distant from campus among UAA athletics facilities). But, again, I'm not just talking about soccer here. This may be a men's soccer board, but that one sport doesn't exist in isolation, at NYU or any other school.

The "virtually no interest in terms of athletic teams in terms of student support" holds true throughout the UAA. The vast majority of U of C undergrads go through their entire sojourn on campus without ever seeing a Maroons sporting event ... and I daresay that there may be students who aren't even aware that the U of C sponsors intercollegiate athletics. And, of course, the astronomical costs of NYU are comparable to its peer institutions as well.

-- And now a woman as coach for a men's program (which actually seems fitting for NYU and NYC)

That is unique. The question is whether or not NYU was recruiting the same numbers in terms of soccer players prior to her hire three years ago.

A data point of only one on NYU --but we knew a prospie interested in NYU who was told by the program that everyone interested in playing comes to tryouts, the team is selected then, and there is no admissions bump for prospective players.

Interesting.

Speaking of odd places for good D3 soccer teams, I wonder what percentage of the U Chicago student body A) even knows that the men's and/or women's team were in the Final Four and B) have ever attended a game where they stayed for more than 15 minutes.

A) I'm guessing that it's pretty low, but I have a friend in the U of C athletic department whom I'll ask who can give me a more informed guess. B) I've been to soccer matches at Stagg Field, and there's typically no more than a tiny handful of U of C students in the stands. I counted about ten or so the last time I was there for a soccer match. The Maroons averaged 155 for home attendance this season (including four D3 tourney matches at Stagg), and the biggest chunk of the Maroons portion of that average, by far, consisted of alumni and families.

It's a stark contrast to regular Maroons opponents such as North Park, Wheaton, and Loras that really pack 'em in the stands.

it goes without saying that the Maroons deserve better, both men and women.

While I'm just pondering the universe for a few minutes, I just wondered to myself why more players or very recent players aren't posting, especially knowing how the competitive juices flow and some of the stuff players have to read from fools like myself.  We have the new Tufts addition which has been great, but we want more.

That's not a soccer thing, that's a general athletics thing. Very, very few recent football, basketball, or baseball players participate on d3boards.com, either. I think that part of the explanation for that lies in the fact that young people have more going on in their lives than do us old duffers. The other part is that a lot of recent student-athletes feel the need for some separation from that recently-sundered part of their identity. A lot of the ex-jocks who post start up again after having been away from their respective programs for a few years.

I think most of the UAA schools would consider themselves within the "liberal arts" genre or at least having a major liberal arts component so when I refer to LACs, I am referring to the US News category of LACs where in general the high end of enrollment is 2800-3200 (Wesleyan, Oberlin come to mind).  Tufts might not be quite as pre-med heavy as Wash U and Hopkins (I know, Centennial) or maybe even Emory but I think of Tufts and Emory as very, very similar.  Carnegie is sort of its own deal.  Chicago is super-intellectual.  Rochester and Case are sort of hybrids with everything, and Brandeis is sort of its own deal.  Anyway, culturally as a New England school and athletically Tufts obviously fits well in the NESCAC but I could Tufts fitting just as well as a UAA school.

The usual classification employed by higher-education people is to distinguish research universities from liberal arts colleges. The UAA schools are research universities, with the accent upon graduate schools, faculty research and publishing, the extensive use of TAs in teaching undergrads, etc. In other words, it goes beyond curriculum and specific disciplines, although, of course, research universities tend to be more STEM-oriented than are liberal arts colleges because they're larger and more comprehensive in terms of academic disciplines. Liberal arts colleges are more focused upon undergraduate education than graduate education, and the overall academic accent tends to be less STEM-oriented (although of course the hard sciences are always present to some degree) and more classically liberal-arts-oriented (humanities, social sciences, and fine arts are as prominent, or more so, than are hard sciences).
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The Cove

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #706 on: December 12, 2017, 02:47:27 pm »
I know, but still in a pretty stealthy kind of way for the most part.  I'm surprised some of you aren't more like some of us 50-somethings in terms of not  being able to contain yourselves, being a little more boisterous and reacting to things you read, etc, etc, etc.

As for you, I'm not sure who you are but certainly myself and a couple of your former teammates have taken guesses at who you might be  ;)

One thing:  if you're gonna recap events from 2013, 2014, 2015, etc you've got to be sure your data points are 100% accurate and chronological  ;)

That said, may you find the "Middle Path" in all of your future endeavors.

And let's hope Lowry, Carmona and company with maybe a returning Stengel can keep our Lords in the mix.

I can only guess the participation is stealthy because young contributors fear being "outed" (excuse the word choice here). Especially if they themselves have been discussed on this forum at some point.

lol. I welcome the guesses but I have a sneaky suspicion those guesses are all way off the mark... just like my game recaps ;)

On Lowry, I just pray he finally gets the national recognition he deserves next year!

Ummm...I've got some pretty smart guys including a pretty smart All-American getting a Ph.D. assisting me.

What was your take on the Tufts-Kenyon Elite 8 game?  The Lords left too many goals out on field the previous day versus Trinity?  Bad karma having to play Tufts again on their field?  Could have gone either way, like the year before, as D4_Pace suggested?
[/quote]

Oh, it absolutely could have gone either way, I feel. Going in, both teams matched up well across the board and played similar styles (physical but with enough quick passing to match). I can't be sure, but I also believe both teams also had one clear chance each before the last second goal. That's how the sport works sometimes, though, I suppose!

Offline PaulNewman

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #707 on: December 12, 2017, 02:55:35 pm »
Thank you, Professor Sager.  I never did understand the difference between research universities and LACs.  Good lecture.  You must be a blast with the family playing board games, lol.

Offline d4_Pace

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #708 on: December 12, 2017, 03:08:56 pm »
I agree with the Cove that the two teams matched up well.  Both games were settled on a goal out of basically nothing. 

Also I think Henry Myers had to be this year's biggest AA snub.  Any explanation from the lords faithful?  Late-season struggle, injury, etc..

Offline PaulNewman

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #709 on: December 12, 2017, 04:50:26 pm »
I agree with the Cove that the two teams matched up well.  Both games were settled on a goal out of basically nothing. 

Also I think Henry Myers had to be this year's biggest AA snub.  Any explanation from the lords faithful?  Late-season struggle, injury, etc..

I had the same thought about Myers but I've done more than enough shilling for Kenyon over the years so I just let it go.  He suffered an leg injury in the first 5 minutes in the 1st round game against Transylvania so he didn't play against Otterbein which obviously didn't help but they still had plenty enough to advance (if you look at the stats).  With Myers, I would have liked their chances against St Thomas and even North Park but there are no do-overs.  Actually Myers, Carmona and Lowry were all good AA candidates.  I'm convinced Lowry is one of the best, least heralded players in the country (although he did allow Majumder to make that turn at the six with Myers and Wynn on the other side with absolutely no one for Tufts to cover at all so no clue why Kenyon didn't have a man on either side of him at that point in the game).  Hard to see all that hard work over several months with a Final Four trip on the line come down to something like that (but also very, very similar to what happened to Tufts this year as I mentioned before in the exact same minute of the game...109th).  Give Majumder credit, though.  3 goals against Kenyon in 2 games.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #710 on: December 12, 2017, 04:58:42 pm »
Thank you, Professor Sager.  I never did understand the difference between research universities and LACs.  Good lecture.  You must be a blast with the family playing board games, lol.

The only board games I've been allowed to play with my family were Candyland and Uncle Wiggly, both of which my nephews and nieces have long since outgrown. ;)
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Offline truenorth

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #711 on: December 13, 2017, 12:57:23 pm »
The d1 vs d3 argument is always tough.  I think generally speaking the top d3 teams would fall somewhere in the 50-75 range of d1 teams depending on the season.  2014 Messiah may have pushed ever higher (they actually beat or tied Georgetown in a spring scrimmage).  I think the biggest difference is resources and schedule.  The NESCAC has no spring season whereas d1 schools have a full spring schedule with coaches.  I also think strength and conditioning programs are generally much more professional at d1 programs than most d3 schools.  But any given year the top 10 or so d3 teams would probably be near the top of the patriot and ivy leagues.

I've weighed in on this one in the past.  My older son played for a Brown team that was perennially ranked in the top 20 in D1.  My younger son played for a Bowdoin team that was ranked #5 in D3 at the end of the regular season and went to the final four in 2010.  My sons and I generally agreed that the starting 11 for that Bowdoin team could probably have hung in there for 45 minutes against the better Ivy teams, but would have faded in the second half as the superior depth and overall skill level of the Ivy teams prevailed.  I don't think that overall equation has changed much over the last seven years...

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #712 on: December 15, 2017, 01:30:27 pm »
Figured I'd briefly chime in on the NPU-Chicago rankings debate.

I put NPU second, Chicago third. I think Chicago is better - the semifinal was more than just one team having an off-day, Chicago was clearly better. If that had been their only game I'd have put Chicago second. If NPU had been 12-5-4 and were a Cinderella maybe I'd have put Chicago second. But, to me, at some point results overtake who I think is better when it comes to rankings. NPU went 1-0-1 against Chicago and never conceded a goal, and they went 20-2-2 overall. And the first game between Chicago and NPU was, at a minimum, even. So, with little to choose between the teams on resume, and two full games between the two, I went with NPU.

I think either position is defensible. I can relate to being the better team and losing. 3/4 of my NCAA trips ended in games where we were easily the better team. But that's part of the sport. I would guess we'd have won a rematch handily each time, but if you get a second shot and still can't do it, hard to have too many complaints about being ranked behind that team. Put concretely, if Team X is clearly better than Team Y, then they should win at least one out of two games against them. We've all picked a sport where you don't have the luxury of a seven-game series.

Interesting debate, though, and reflects that everyone can view rankings differently. I try to balance which teams I think are better/best with which teams deserve higher rankings based on their body of work. Given that we work with limited information, that's not always possible.

The only national champion since I've been involved that I would not have voted No. 1 overall was Middlebury 2007. I would have put Trinity No. 1.


Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #713 on: December 17, 2017, 05:19:21 pm »
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.
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Offline Mr.Right

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #714 on: December 18, 2017, 12:45:08 pm »
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.


I seriously doubt they would be harassed. You might get one or two cantankerous parents or whatever but it is what it is I guess. For the sake of transparency I think at the very least we could get a list of the schools they are affiliated with. For D3Soccer contributors they could just list D3Soccer.com and maybe the town they are from. I would think the site would want to do this so us posters and especially those that care about rankings that we are getting fair representation from each region.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #715 on: December 18, 2017, 12:48:55 pm »
Thank you for being completely honest about how and why you voted like you did. Also, I would of voted the same exact way as yourself and given basically the same explanation for doing so. A little more clarity and transparency in who and why they vote on this site would be much appreciated. Instead of the site proclaiming that they have an eclectic and diverse voting body it would be nice to see who the voters actually are? Kind of like the NCAA giving us who is on each Committee that they have.

You won't get from the D3sports network the list of voters on any poll and I doubt D3soccer will do the same. The premise is simple: we don't want the voters being harassed or cajoled about how they vote or who they should be voting for by fans, colleagues (coaches, media members, the like), or others. They don't need to have that to deal with when paying attention to their Top 25 work. So at least for the D3sports network ... you won't get voter's names unless they reveal them like myself.

As for the NCAA... they give us who is on each committee for a heck of a lot of other reasons. However, the simple thing is this: they are the NCAA and not a media organization. Now, the AP certainly releases their voters... but they are all media members, so there are difference expectations. We aren't going to throw coaches or SIDs or others under the bus. Not fair to them especially since many rather not have their names out there for the reasons described.


I seriously doubt they would be harassed. You might get one or two cantankerous parents or whatever but it is what it is I guess. For the sake of transparency I think at the very least we could get a list of the schools they are affiliated with. For D3Soccer contributors they could just list D3Soccer.com and maybe the town they are from. I would think the site would want to do this so us posters and especially those that care about rankings that we are getting fair representation from each region.

Your words basically prove my point. "at the very least we could get the list of schools they are affiliated with." Why? "Maybe the town they are from." Why?

If D3soccer is like the D3sports network it was once affiliated with, they are making sure their poll is fairly balanced how they deem it should be... not to you or any body else's parameters. They don't answer to you ultimately. You already point out more than a few times how you think voters are wrong... you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out. You haven't shown otherwise.
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Offline blooter442

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #716 on: December 18, 2017, 01:01:47 pm »
you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out.

This seems a little unnecessarily aggressive. I can see both sides of the coin -- why some would prefer to keep the voters anonymous while others think it would improve transparency -- and think both have merits, but we don't need to go making assumptions about what a given poster would or wouldn't do.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #717 on: December 18, 2017, 02:19:44 pm »
you are the kind of person we wouldn't want knowing who the voters are in the D3sports network because I suspect you would call them out.

This seems a little unnecessarily aggressive. I can see both sides of the coin -- why some would prefer to keep the voters anonymous while others think it would improve transparency -- and think both have merits, but we don't need to go making assumptions about what a given poster would or wouldn't do.

How I read his words makes me wonder if he would search out voters, ask how they vote, and question their voting stance. He already has in this open forum without knowing the voters.
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Offline D3soccerwatcher

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #718 on: December 18, 2017, 08:02:36 pm »
Only 21 NCAA D3 schools have ever won the National Championship since the inception of the D3 national tournament in 1974.  Only 9 schools have won the National Championship more than once.  And only 8 schools have won the National Championship in the last 20 years.  Here’s the breakdown:

Messiah (11 Championships)
UNC Greensboro (5) – no longer D3
Babson (3)
UC San Diego (3) – no longer D3
Lock Haven (2) – no longer D3
Ohio Wesleyan (2)
Rowan (2)
Tufts (2)
Wheaton Ill (2)
Amherst (1)
Bethany (1)
Brandeis (1)
Brockport State (1)
Elizabethtown (1)
Kean (1)
Middlebury (1)
Richard Stockton (1)
St Lawrence (1)
TCNJ (1)
Trinity (1)
Williams (1)

Offline EB2319

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Re: 2017 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #719 on: December 19, 2017, 10:07:16 am »
Only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 every season since 2010.  Name them...
Since 2010, only 2 teams have finished the year in the D3 Top 25 having lost 7 games in the season. Name them...
Since 2010, one team has finished the season ranked 3rd 3x.  Name them...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 10:15:58 am by EB2319 »