2017 Season - National Perspective

Started by D3soccerwatcher, August 11, 2017, 10:25:42 PM

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Mr.Right

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.


Frankly I really do not care about rankings all that much. Consistency in doing something I do care about. I never said they do not do their job or do not know what they are talking about. I just find it odd that a team goes 1-0-1 against their opponent and proceeds to advance to the NCAA Final while also having a better overall record yet finishes behind them in the polls. Your explanation was that because Chicago outshot North Park 20-5 and had a clear goal called back it was obvious that they were the better team and therefore deserved to be ranked ahead of North Park. My point to you was since when do these pollsters start looking at how a team played in a certain game to decide a ranking. I just do not buy that is what happens throughout the season and if it doesn't then why should it apply at the end of a season.

firstplaceloser

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.

im going to go out on a limb here and say you are one of the ones who voted Chicago ahead of NPU...    you are very passionate about the NCAA it's cool to hve someone like that around here. but all we think is they screwed that one up a little. not the end of the world

Flying Weasel

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Exactly.  We had this discussion two years ago I think.  Some people seem to want to neuter the poll and make it little more than a summary of the the NCAA tournament as if they can't just go to the completed tournament bracket to find out who advanced how far.  First, that's not what a poll is, and two, if that's what you want, you have the NSCAA USC "poll".

firstplaceloser

Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2017, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Exactly.  We had this discussion two years ago I think.  Some people seem to want to neuter the poll and make it little more than a summary of the the NCAA tournament as if they can't just go to the completed tournament bracket to find out who advanced how far.  First, that's not what a poll is, and two, if that's what you want, you have the NSCAA USC "poll".

I absolutely understand what you are and saying and I agree the tournament shouldn't determine your final ranking but the #1 and 2 spot should go to the two teams who battled all season to make it to that point. 3-25 can be determined however their hearts desire

Gregory Sager

I'm the only one who posts here who actually has skin in this game in terms of a rooting interest with regard to the two sides in question, and you know what? I'm fine with Chicago being placed ahead of North Park. I also would've been just as OK with it if it had been the other way around, with NPU being voted #2 and Chicago #3. You can make a good case either way.

I'm not at all put out by d3soccer.com's verdict. Perhaps I just don't get as worked up about polls as I used to. All that matters to me is that NPU had a magnificent year that went all the way to the final match of the season, and that, rather than a despondent air of letdown, there's a palpable feeling of excitement and expectation on campus that this was merely the beginning of an era in which the Vikings will be at a different level than they were before.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Flying Weasel

#650
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.


Frankly I really do not care about rankings all that much. Consistency in doing something I do care about. I never said they do not do their job or do not know what they are talking about. I just find it odd that a team goes 1-0-1 against their opponent and proceeds to advance to the NCAA Final while also having a better overall record yet finishes behind them in the polls. Your explanation was that because Chicago outshot North Park 20-5 and had a clear goal called back it was obvious that they were the better team and therefore deserved to be ranked ahead of North Park. My point to you was since when do these pollsters start looking at how a team played in a certain game to decide a ranking. I just do not buy that is what happens throughout the season and if it doesn't then why should it apply at the end of a season.

At least for the coaches on the panel, it would be perfectly natural if they had more time to watch the games in the tournament and see how teams play and vote based on a lot more than the scores/results.  During the season they have their own practices to plan and run and their own games to play. Not to mention, there are hundreds of games occurring midweek and again on the weekend, and for every game one gets to check in on, there's dozens of other simultaneous games involving potential Top 25 teams that cannot be watched even if there's streaming video. The tournament, and more so as it moves on to Sectionals and Final Four, presents an opportunity that does not exist throughout the regular season: (1) Most coaches' teams are eliminated from the tournament or didn't make the tournament, so they have a bit more time to really take in games other than their own, (2) there are fewer and fewer games, but each typically involving two teams of interest, and (3) the games all are being streamed live. So, yes, I think it's unavoidable that coaches would be able to do a better job of rating teams based on how they played in the tournament, not just on final scores, unlike for all the other weekly rankings leading up to the tournament.  It might be inconsistent, but it's a product of reality.

[Deleted second paragraph because in hindsight it was over the top and unnecessary and apparently has distracted form the my main point which is made in the first paragraph.]

Flying Weasel

Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:49:20 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2017, 11:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Exactly.  We had this discussion two years ago I think.  Some people seem to want to neuter the poll and make it little more than a summary of the the NCAA tournament as if they can't just go to the completed tournament bracket to find out who advanced how far.  First, that's not what a poll is, and two, if that's what you want, you have the NSCAA USC "poll".

I absolutely understand what you are and saying and I agree the tournament shouldn't determine your final ranking but the #1 and 2 spot should go to the two teams who battled all season to make it to that point. 3-25 can be determined however their hearts desire

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.  How many times have we all commented about some semifinal (any sport, any level of play) that that was the true final.  Heck, sometimes that can happen in the quarterfinals.  I think most of us can agree that the better team (no matter how we each determine that) doesn't always win.  I think we all believe upsets occur.  How many of us have commented on how cruel the soccer gods can be?  And that's why I firmly believe that the best team does not always even reach the final.  And since I firmly believe that, I don't think the No. 1 vote needs to go to the champion, nor always should go to the champion.  Sure, the champion gets the benefit of the doubt and if it's a close call, being the champion is a huge tie-breaker, but championships and rankings are two separate things.  The champions have their reward and their respect--they had their moment in the spotlight, they got to live the experience of winning the championship (and get to re-live it in their minds for the rest of their lives), they have the medals and trophy, they get to wear the T-shirts and rings, they get to be called champions for the rest of their lives, their name is etched in history and in the record books, they get to play the next season as defending champions (no one talks in terms of defending No. 1 ranked team). No ranking can top any of that and no ranking is needed to validate them as champions.  So why not let polls be what they by definition are: a collection of opinions.

Mr.Right

Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 09, 2017, 12:28:14 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 10:47:36 PM
You actually don't know who watches what or how much they do or don't watch. Don't need to give you a paragraph.. you already know that and basically said so.

I seems to me that maybe because the polls or others don't agree with you that they must not have done their job or know what they are talking about. I don't know the voters on the D3soccer poll, but being one who has voted in my fair share of national polls, most voters I know don't mail these things in.

Clearly, you didn't like the results earlier... but that's in the past. Now they probably did what you wish they had done earlier... and you find fault.

Just a guess.


Frankly I really do not care about rankings all that much. Consistency in doing something I do care about. I never said they do not do their job or do not know what they are talking about. I just find it odd that a team goes 1-0-1 against their opponent and proceeds to advance to the NCAA Final while also having a better overall record yet finishes behind them in the polls. Your explanation was that because Chicago outshot North Park 20-5 and had a clear goal called back it was obvious that they were the better team and therefore deserved to be ranked ahead of North Park. My point to you was since when do these pollsters start looking at how a team played in a certain game to decide a ranking. I just do not buy that is what happens throughout the season and if it doesn't then why should it apply at the end of a season.

At least for the coaches on the panel, it would be perfectly natural if they had more time to watch the games in the tournament and see how teams play and vote based on a lot more than the scores/results.  During the season they have their own practices to plan and run and their own games to play. Not to mention, there are hundreds of games occurring midweek and again on the weekend, and for every game one gets to check in on, there's dozens of other simultaneous games involving potential Top 25 teams that cannot be watched even if there's streaming video. The tournament, and more so as it moves on to Sectionals and Final Four, presents an opportunity that does not exist throughout the regular season: (1) Most coaches' teams are eliminated from the tournament or didn't make the tournament, so they have a bit more time to really take in games other than their own, (2) there are fewer and fewer games, but each typically involving two teams of interest, and (3) the games all are being streamed live. So, yes, I think it's unavoidable that coaches would be able to do a better job of rating teams based on how they played in the tournament, not just on final scores, unlike for all the other weekly rankings leading up to the tournament.  It might be inconsistent, but it's a product of reality.

Mr. Right, you know the realities of Division III soccer and yet your comments seem to be at odds with those realities. Maybe some day when D-III soccer goes big time and there are several websites dedicated to it and dozens of full-time sports writers and columnists who cover it, then there can be a Top 25 panel made up of media members whose job it is to watch as many games as possible and to have a full grasp of the national landscape. And maybe there will be a cable channel dedicated to D-III sports with highlights and analysis of dozens of key midweek and weekends games readily available for all coaches to see so they can be more informed for their vote in a coaches poll.  Maybe someday there will be 25 Mr. Right wannabes who have the interest and time to watch dozens of games each week and can band together to start their own Top 25 poll which will produce the one true ranking each week.  In the meantime, maybe we can cut the coaches a little slack for voting based more on results than games watched during the season and then doing their best to take more into account in their vote for the final rankings.


This is the most asinine and unnecessary response. I understand your point and do understand the realities of D3 Soccer but to slam me for my addiction and knowledge of D3 Soccer on top of making your point only proves that I hit a small nerve that you feel every year to have to proclaim the D3soccer poll superior to the NSCAA poll.





Flying Weasel

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 09, 2017, 01:36:08 AM
This is the most asinine and unnecessary response. I understand your point and do understand the realities of D3 Soccer but to slam me for my addiction and knowledge of D3 Soccer on top of making your point only proves that I hit a small nerve that you feel every year to have to proclaim the D3soccer poll superior to the NSCAA poll.

OK, I went over the top with the hyperbole and facetiousness to make a point.  And you are probably right that is was unnecessary.  However, I did not slam your knowledge and addiction to D-III soccer, at least that was not my intent and I apologize if that is how my post could be interpreted. In a niche such as D-III soccer, it's quite possible that at the moment you have the broadest and deepest knowledge of the D-III landscape. I respect that for what it is.  In fact, because of the highly knowledgeable fans on this message board, I think it would be great to have a fan's Top 25, but since I don't have the time to organize it, I've never suggested it—until now, I guess.

In a previous decade, I was addicted (OK, I still am to some extent, but family and work life no longer allows me to feed my addiction like I once could) and I had a healthy knowledge of the D-III landscape back then.  Of course, that was before games were being webcast, so there were much greater limitations to what you could learn and know from across the whole nation. But it was fair to think that I probably had as good or better a handle of the national scene than many of the voters for the Top 25, just as that is probably the case today for you and some other addicts (and I use the term endearingly) and super-fans on this message board. And back then, in both my shortsightedness and pride, I sometimes had unrealistic expectations of the voters and leveled unfair criticisms at them. I'm more understanding and less critical these days, while still having some issues/criticisms (e.g. do some voters make any reasonable attempt to take into account strength of schedule when comparing W-L-T records and ranking teams throughout the season?!?).

I simply thought your particular criticism—that how they voted in the final poll, though seemingly more in line with how you want them to vote, was still wrong because you adjudged it to be inconsistent with the "incorrect" way they voted during the regular season—was either not talking into account or was ignoring some of the potential reasons/explanations for a shift (what you characterize as an inconsistency) in their approach. I thought it fair to mention those reasons and explanations.  I'm not denying an inconsistency on the part of some voters, nor agreeing that one exists.  But I think it reasonable, in light of the realities, that some shift would occur, and that it would be for the benefit of a better final ranking.

As to the D3soccer.com poll vs. NSCAA poll, I don't remember making any proclamations of superiority, now or on any kind of annual basis (correct me, if my memory is failing me that badly).  Unless making the simple observation that those who prefer the final rankings to reflect NCAA tournament finish will be more satisfied with the NSCAA rankings than the D3soccer.com rankings is considered a proclamation of superiority.  I prefer the D3soccer.com approach over the NSCAA's rigid framework that they largely though not strictly adhere to during the regular season and their approximate, though not strict, reflection of NCAA tournament advancement in their final rankings. Most years, somewhere along the way some discussion of the rankings comes up where it seems clear that someone hasn't yet heard or discovered how the NSCAA national rankings work, and if no one else steps up to help enlighten that person, I share that insight. From there, each person can reach their own conclusions.  I think D3soccer.com's approach gives it a better chance than the NSCAA to do an accurate ranking, but it's still only as good as its voters and I rarely think D3soccer.com has nailed the rankings.

Ryan Harmanis

Figured I'd briefly chime in on the NPU-Chicago rankings debate.

I put NPU second, Chicago third. I think Chicago is better - the semifinal was more than just one team having an off-day, Chicago was clearly better. If that had been their only game I'd have put Chicago second. If NPU had been 12-5-4 and were a Cinderella maybe I'd have put Chicago second. But, to me, at some point results overtake who I think is better when it comes to rankings. NPU went 1-0-1 against Chicago and never conceded a goal, and they went 20-2-2 overall. And the first game between Chicago and NPU was, at a minimum, even. So, with little to choose between the teams on resume, and two full games between the two, I went with NPU.

I think either position is defensible. I can relate to being the better team and losing. 3/4 of my NCAA trips ended in games where we were easily the better team. But that's part of the sport. I would guess we'd have won a rematch handily each time, but if you get a second shot and still can't do it, hard to have too many complaints about being ranked behind that team. Put concretely, if Team X is clearly better than Team Y, then they should win at least one out of two games against them. We've all picked a sport where you don't have the luxury of a seven-game series.

Interesting debate, though, and reflects that everyone can view rankings differently. I try to balance which teams I think are better/best with which teams deserve higher rankings based on their body of work. Given that we work with limited information, that's not always possible.

The only national champion since I've been involved that I would not have voted No. 1 overall was Middlebury 2007. I would have put Trinity No. 1.

PaulNewman

#655
For me this last page and a half is a classic example of how a back and forth on the internet can go astray based on one or two misunderstandings that then spiral (and I've been as guilty as anyone in this regard in the past).  In other words, it's sometimes hard to determine when there is a real difference of opinion (I've had plenty of those also) versus getting caught up in misunderstandings.

First of all, I'm not sure anyone cares about the polls or their outcome as much as taking the trouble to post about it suggests.  In the big picture, I don't care at all who is ranked #2 or #3.  That said, I also was surprised, and I say that as someone (like most here perhaps) who does believe Chicago was "better" than NPU.  Since I've been following, the final polls (both) generally have mirrored the Final Four outcomes with maybe the 4th team in the D3 poll getting downgraded to #5 or #6 but the finalists usually being #1 and #2.  The one thing nobody mentioned is that NPU climbed the highest in the D3 poll, so maybe that was a factor.

I do not buy that most voters put Chicago ahead because they "looked better" in the national semi.  Of course soccer may be the only sport where we have this odd thing about not losing but also not advancing (ties), so maybe that factors in, but I can't think of another sport where we say UCLA looked better in that Final Four semi but lost to UK and so UCLA ends up ranked higher.  Anyway, I don't think there is some difference between not seeing enough games during the season versus having more observation time in the tournament.  Just doesn't make sense, especially without getting into accounting for things like good or bad draws.  Did any voters take into account how great JCU looked in Round 1, for example?  I don't expect that from voters during the season or at the end of the season. 

I don't think a fan poll would address any of this either.  As I said, I personally think Chicago was better but as a poll voter, I would have voted NPU #2.

I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.  Sometimes I think there is a bit of tension between the formal journalistic offerings on the site (which almost without fail are superb) and the informal but often regular contributions from persons like Mr.Right (and some others).  Both make the site what it is and something that so many of us truly enjoy.  And in this particular year Mr.Right's contribution (talking about the columns/articles and message board only) was as large and appreciated as anyone's this side of Mr. Blooter.

Flying Weasel

It seems like most on here are admitting to be of the opinion that Chicago is "better" but also saying they would vote NPU in at No. 2 anyway.  And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to have their own idea of what a ranking is meant to convey or represent.  But if the ranking is based on an opinion poll and most of us are of the opinion that Chicago is "better", than is there any good reason to (a) not expect a majority of the voters to also share the opinion that Chicago is "better" and to (b) not expect voters to vote their opinion in an opinion poll?

I too question how much voters' approach really changed from the regular season to the final poll, but if there was any shift or change for any of them, I think it can easily be explained by the realities I pointed out, not by ill motives or incompetence that merit criticism.  Just my opinion.  Those who think it merits criticism are free to do so--never said they weren't--I just presented a differring perspective.

For me, John Carroll not being ranked higher was a little surprising, but probably shouldn't have been.  There was a lot of talk on here among us fans about how good they had looked and how unfair it was that they had to face another Final Four contender in the second round already when that kind of match-up shouldn't occur before the Sweet 16 at the earliest and was maybe better suited for an Elite 8 match.  The voters weren't part of those conversations as far as I know, so I shouldn't have assumed that the small sample size on this board could be predictive of how the voters would see things.  Nevertheless, I think John Carroll may have been short-changed a little bit due to the tendency to rank teams along the general lines of tournament advancement.

There are plenty of reasons (some stronger than others, and some maybe not fair or valid) for voters to have put Chicago ahead of North Park.  And how Chicago "looked better" in the semifinal could certainly be one of them for those who watched the game.  I didn't see the regular season game between the two teams, but I did see the semifinal and Chicago was very impressive apart from not finding the back of the net more than the one time that the linesman completely got it wrong on the offside call.  So if my opinion of Chicago was bolstered by the semifinal, I have no reason to think the same couldn't be the case for Top 25 voters.

And yes, I got carried away with my post and have deleted the part that went over the top and distracted from the main point I was trying to make.

Christan Shirk

Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 11:28:20 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 08, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Quote from: firstplaceloser on December 08, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
I agree 100% also how can chicago finish above NPU. don't the teams play a final 4 to determine who is 1 and 2? usually 3 and 4 are an easier determination.

The NCAA has a tournament to determine who wins it for the NCAA... not a national poll which isn't even involved. A national poll isn't obligated to take that information and plot it out accordingly especially when the bracket doesn't include only the best teams and in a way that would help make sure the top teams get to the end (not arguing for changing the tournament, just pointing out the differences).

No voter should be obligated to vote how the tournament finishes outside of the top team - though, I know of times it has been an interesting conversation.

Chicago dominated North Park in their semifinal appearance. Because North Park advanced on a shoot-out that went eight frames, they are automatically better and should be ranked higher than Chicago? The Maroons outshot the Vikings 20-5 (18-1 after regulation, I think). The Maroons actually scored on the Vikings, despite the call being incorrect. And North Park was searching for answers throughout the game.

If I was voting (and I used to), I would have had Chicago ahead of North Park in the final rankings as well. I am sure the voters saw the same game most of us saw and the only way I would have ranked North Park ahead of Chicago was if they won the national championship (interestingly if that had happened, I would have put Chicago second as well).

Quote from: Mr.Right on December 08, 2017, 02:54:27 PM
Yea I would think so especially with north park defeating Chicago in the regular season as well.

That game in most voter's minds is going to be irrelevant compared to the most recent game. The poll is about now, not October.

im going to go out on a limb here and say you are one of the ones who voted Chicago ahead of NPU...    you are very passionate about the NCAA it's cool to hve someone like that around here. but all we think is they screwed that one up a little. not the end of the world

I can unequivocally and authoritatively state that Mr. Dave McHugh is not a member of the D3soccer.com men's or women's Top 25 panels.   However, given the clear demonstration of his reason, level-headedness, and grasp on reality, maybe we should consider inviting him back.  :D
Christan Shirk
Special Consultant and Advisor
D3soccer.com

Christan Shirk

With regard to the D3soccer.com Top 25 poll and voters, we have never given our voters s specific set of criteria to follow or apply at any time of the season (regular season or final poll).  We ask them to use their own good judgement and discernment, to make their own considerations, and vote their opinion. We do encourage them to take strength-of-schedule into account, but we do not suggest (or discourage) consulting any specific SOS computations (e.g. NCAA, Bennett/Hero Sports, Massey Ratings)(I  personally think each of them has their flaws, but each also probably has its merits.) We suggest two questions for them to ask themselves while recognizing there are many other considerations and ways of comparing teams and completing one's ballot: (1) If these teams played in the next few days, all things being equal and neutral, who in your judgement is more likely to win? (2) If these teams played a series of ten games, who in your judgement is more likely to win more often?

Specifically with regard to the final poll after the NCAA Tournament, we ask our voters to judge teams on their full body of work. We clearly communicate to them that we are not interested in a final ranking that merely reflects the teams' advancement and finish in the NCAA tournament. The tournament matches are part of teams' full body of work, and we leave it up to each voter to decide to what extent if at all he/she gives extra weight to tournament matches. We let them know that they should feel free
• to consider a team who picked up a rare tie or loss (maybe even their only one of the season) at the "wrong" time in the tournament to be better than a team who advanced further than them but on the whole did not have as good a season,
• to consider the bracketing, recognizing that some teams were dealt tougher match-ups in the early rounds and a tougher path to the final,
• to consider an upset to be just that--the better team being beaten by a inferior team on that day, and 
• even to cast a No. 1 vote for a team other than the NCAA champion.
Christan Shirk
Special Consultant and Advisor
D3soccer.com

firstplaceloser

I found Mr.Right's initial observations and questions on this topic rather benign, so in that regard I thought the reaction was over the top.  This was by far, IMHO, Mr.Right's "best year," and speaking of consistency he was quite so this year.  Sometimes I think there is a bit of tension between the formal journalistic offerings on the site (which almost without fail are superb) and the informal but often regular contributions from persons like Mr.Right (and some others).  Both make the site what it is and something that so many of us truly enjoy.  And in this particular year Mr.Right's contribution (talking about the columns/articles and message board only) was as large and appreciated as anyone's this side of Mr. Blooter.

I will 100% give Mr Right the credit he deserves this year. we don't agree often but that's what makes it great. and whoever said something about how words get twisted on here is so right. I am also surprised this topic is this popular. everyone and every player knows rankns are just rankings.