Ties and Overtime

Started by jknezek, October 11, 2022, 02:51:29 PM

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Hopkins92

I never had the "good fortune" of going that deep in the post-season, but... Folks might recall the UCLA-American final in the 80s that went an absurd amount of OTs and is certainly what led to the rule change that implemented PKs at some point in the late 80s or early 90s.

Living in the DMV, we were pulling for American and that game went something like 6 or 7 OTs. It was played out on the west coast somewhere and was airing on something very random, but me and my buddies stayed up to the bitter end. Crazy crazy game. Horrible to watch as a fan as the players could barely run after the 4th OT.

jknezek

When I was a kid in New Jersey, sometime in the early 90s, our club league had a rule that a tiebreaking game to win the league had to be decided in golden goal overtimes after complaints one year about PKs being crappy. One year we ended up in a tiebreaker game. At the time we were U14, so we played 70 minute games and then 10 minute golden goal overtimes. It went 8 overtime periods before we finally lost 1-0. Somewhere between 140 and 150 minutes of soccer, plus whatever the ref's discretion was. Looking back on it, it was borderline abusive and when it ended I don't think either team cared very much. We just wanted to go home.

The next season penalty kicks were added after 2 golden goal OT periods. Maybe it wasn't the longest game ever played in the league, maybe some of the older kids going 90 minutes might have had a few less OTs but a few more minutes, but it was the most OTs ever played in the league. They sent both teams a plaque, and since my dad was the coach he kept it for a while. As far as I know, the PK rule remains and Ocean Township United and Wall Soccer Club 1991 or 1992 Fall season U14s hold the record for most overtimes played in a Monmouth-Ocean Soccer Association game.

And yes, I don't think I'll ever forget. It wasn't quite as bad as the tournament we played a few years later where it got so backed up our semi-final was played at noon and our final started at 2 p.m. (90 minute games), but I'm pretty sure neither one was a good experience.

Hopkins92

Yeah... Unpopular opinion incoming...

As a goalie, I actually like PKs. :D Allowed me to (potentially) do something rare for a goalie, which is to pretty definitively win a game for my boys.

So, when people complain that "it's a lousy way to decide a game" I keep my mouth shut, but inside I'm saying "eh, it's not the worst thing in the world." And part of what has me saying that is the UCLA-AU game and knowing that at a certain point, infinite OTs aren't soccer either. It's torture. At some point, you need to finish the darn thing. 

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Hopkins92 on November 18, 2022, 09:55:00 AM
I never had the "good fortune" of going that deep in the post-season, but... Folks might recall the UCLA-American final in the 80s that went an absurd amount of OTs and is certainly what led to the rule change that implemented PKs at some point in the late 80s or early 90s.

Living in the DMV, we were pulling for American and that game went something like 6 or 7 OTs. It was played out on the west coast somewhere and was airing on something very random, but me and my buddies stayed up to the bitter end. Crazy crazy game. Horrible to watch as a fan as the players could barely run after the 4th OT.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-12-15-sp-622-story.html
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gray Fox

Why not just remove a player every few minutes?
Fierce When Roused

coach analytics

I would like soccer to evolve and try something different like hockey.  I would have an extensive OT period but play 9v9 or 8v8. It would open up the game an increase the chance of a goal significantly.

SierraFD3soccer

Quote from: coach analytics on November 20, 2022, 06:43:34 PM
I would like soccer to evolve and try something different like hockey.  I would have an extensive OT period but play 9v9 or 8v8. It would open up the game an increase the chance of a goal significantly.

Yup with a golden goal as well.

camosfan

the game is the most popular in the world, this is the only place where fans have problem with a tie!

Gregory Sager

Quote from: camosfan on November 21, 2022, 12:02:19 PM
the game is the most popular in the world, this is the only place where fans have problem with a tie!

That doesn't matter.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Hopkins92

Only place I'd tweak is to go back to the golden goal during the playoffs. Some of you folks... We have now covered a lot of this turf in at least 2 cycles on this thread... Just sayin'.

coach analytics

Quote from: camosfan on November 21, 2022, 12:02:19 PM
the game is the most popular in the world, this is the only place where fans have problem with a tie!



I do not have a huge problem with a tie but determining the national champions or World Cup champions or even tournament advancement on 5 PKs is so stupid!

BaboNation

I'd favor a small rule variation for OT that wouldn't radically alter soccer as we know it.  Eliminate any pass back to the GK if he is in the box. 
We probably wouldn't drastically reduce ties but the OTs would be more compelling.

Kuiper

Simple Coach's recent podcast, where he discussed the data on ties, made me wonder if conference-level data would show more variation.  For example, NESCAC is very competitive, has more strong teams historically, and typically gets more bids to the NCAA tournament.  SCIAC, by contrast, in Region X, is usually more top heavy and in many years only gets one automatic bid to the NCAA tournament and that's it.  You can develop hypotheses that would argue there should be more ties in either one (e.g., (1) ties are more prevalent in top heavy conferences as weaker teams try to hold on or they are more prevalent in conferences that are strong from top to bottom since no team can breakthrough for a score, or, conversely (2) where you have to win to get a chance for a Pool C bid, there will be fewer ties and where you need to just hold serve to stay in contention for a Pool C bid, there will be more ties).

So, I compared the ties and percentages in NESCAC and SCIAC for 2022 and 2021, covering all games involving their teams, including out of conference (this was a rough late night exercise, so I may have miscounted ties/games by a couple):

                                       2022                                                                 2021

NESCAC                         32 ties/133 games (24.06%)                               12/133 (9.02%)

SCIAC                            23/93 (24.73%)                                                  7/96 (7.29%)

Surprisingly, at least to me, the percentages were very similar.  Perhaps the variables both contribute to lots of ties (top heavy conferences produce ties among the strong and weak teams and balanced conferences produce ties among the equally matched teams).  Alternatively, maybe it's a coastal thing  ;D 

My guess is that if I compared more conferences, I would find some variation.  The hypothesis is that the decision to go for a tie in certain cases might be cultural among coaches and players and some areas of the country might not make that strategic choice.  I didn't have time to test it, but I did take a quick look just at 2022 for the SCAC in the Southwest and they only had 17 ties and a 15.32% tie rate.

camosfan

Do people go for a tie , or they just did not win?