FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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emma17

WooClone15,
I don't know your family situation, so I'll use mine. I have three kids in college. Although none of them play football, if any one of them were treated in the way the victim reportedly was treated by five football players, there is no way on this planet I would have silently waited for DuPage to clear its schedule while all five were allowed to play football in 2017 AND 2016.

Unless of course, I had reason to believe justice was served prior to the 2016 season.

wally_wabash

Quote from: emma17 on September 22, 2017, 12:04:14 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 22, 2017, 11:55:52 AM
Quote from: emma17 on September 22, 2017, 10:48:24 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on September 22, 2017, 09:04:18 AM
Quote from: emma17 on September 22, 2017, 02:58:24 AM
I ask this because I wonder if the victim and family didn't enter into an agreement with Wheaton College last year for this matter to be put to bed, only to now have a change of heart for some reason.

I don't get why you think that this hypothetical agreement happened so matter-of-factly.  Wheaton entering into some kind of backroom handshake deal to keep the whole thing quiet makes all of it infinitely worse, doesn't it?  Why would they (Wheaton) want to do that?  There is no upside to that play.

I'm not sure if this is a serious question but I'll answer.
1. The reason I think there is a good chance an agreement of some sort was reached last year is because the length of time that has passed beteeen the event and the charges being brought. I feel it's a more likely explanation than the idea that DuPage was just too busy to devote full resources immediately.
2. Companies and individuals all across this planet, probably since man first walked it, have looked for a cooperative resolution of matters (i.e. agreement) to avoid court involvement (several on this board can quote the scripture that applies). What you refer to in a negative way as a "backroom handshake deal" is actually how the overwhelming majority of disputes are handled. I realize this applies more often to civil cases, but rest assured agreements are made all of the time that involve assurances of privacy about events that one party or the other want to keep out of the public.

Aside from the "let's just let this be our little secret" approach to this incident being ethically distasteful (to say the least), for there to be some kind of nondisclosure agreement without any of it being legally contracted is unbelievably foolish.  I'm not saying there's no way something like what you're describing didn't happen, but I'm finding it incredibly hard to see that Wheaton wouldn't have protected itself better with a legally binding NDA.  Surely the administration there isn't that naive.

You and I will have to disagree about agreements being ethically distasteful. I see no reason why bringing this issue to criminal court makes it any more ethically tasteful.

Exactly.

You didn't read what I wrote.  In the context of this specific incident, the kind of agreement you're suggesting is pretty gross.  Not all agreements are distasteful.  But this isn't a couple of buddies figuring out how to split the check when a shared appetizer got ordered.  This would be a situation where a victim of some degree of assault is being asked to forfeit their rights in order to protect the institution from some bad pub.  That's very much not ok and I really hope that kind of thing is not business as usual at Wheaton (or anyplace for that matter). 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

WooClone15

Quote from: emma17 on September 22, 2017, 12:13:13 PM
WooClone15,
I don't know your family situation, so I'll use mine. I have three kids in college. Although none of them play football, if any one of them were treated in the way the victim reportedly was treated by five football players, there is no way on this planet I would have silently waited for DuPage to clear its schedule while all five were allowed to play football in 2017 AND 2016.

Unless of course, I had reason to believe justice was served prior to the 2016 season.
That's fine; you could have gone public with what happened, but I don't think you can say the parents would have acted the same way you would have. Therefore, I don't think the fact that they haven't spoken out means it is more likely that there was some kind of agreement.


New Tradition

Quote from: ncc_fan on September 22, 2017, 12:57:46 AM
Quote from: iwumichigander on September 22, 2017, 12:36:39 AM
I am with Q - the touchdown should have counted.  I would tell which touchdown and which player but my brain is tired from slugging through the other subject posts.

And the refs blew the offsides call on the NCC guy who blocked Augie's field goal attempt in the waning seconds of the 2005 de facto CCIW championship game.   ::)

ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHH!!!!!! 
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AndOne

Quote from: emma17 on September 22, 2017, 02:58:24 AM
Quote from: AndOne on September 21, 2017, 03:15:34 PM
Emma,

I believe there are certain crimes that once reported have to be pursued. If there were no injuries at all or no serious injuries, he probably could have told the police to forget it. I'm not sure if the police, after seeing the degree of injuries could just let it be dropped. Another thing to remember about this case is that the charged offenses are felonies as opposed to misdemeanors. It would not be surprising if misdemeanors could be dropped at the victim's discretion, but that felonies have to be investigated and prosecuted.
But let's say it could be ended at that point and was. The College would then still have been required to report it to police. It's a state law that if a college becomes aware of any violent injuries sustained by a student, that they have to report it. They have/would have had no choice. 
I hope that gives you closure with regard to your question.  :)

So hold on. You're earlier post stated a "certain reason" with a #2 reason as a sort of backup. Are you now saying your "certain reason" is no longer certain and now relying on your #2 backup reason to support your point?
Regardless of which certainty you feel applies, I'll ask the same question. If there wasn't a formal complaint by the victim, can the DA press forward with criminal charges?
Even if Wheaton College was required to report the event to the police- and did, is that enough for the DA to press forward if the victim himself wasn't going to participate/cooperate with criminal charges?
I ask this because I wonder if the victim and family didn't enter into an agreement with Wheaton College last year for this matter to be put to bed, only to now have a change of heart for some reason.

OK, Maybe this will do it.

1. When the ER nurse(s) saw the injuries on the victim's body, they questioned him about them and he hesitated (embarrassed?) at first, but then advised the nursing staff that he was beaten. They then called the police who came directly to the hospital to begin their investigation and compile their initial reports that were subsequently turned over to the States Atty. As this DID happen, it is what I referred to as the "certain" reason things couldn't have been kept hushed up so a "secret" agreement between the victim and school could have been made.
2. IF #1 hadn't happened, the "possible" reason could have come into play because under State and possibly Frderal law, when a college becomes aware that a student has sustained any type of non-accidental injury they are required to report it to local authorities.
3. The legal theory is that the States Atty represents ALL the citizens, victims included. Also, when the charges are felonies, as in this case, the victim does NOT have a choice as to whether or not charges are filed. It's entirely up to the States Atty. The victim can make a request, but the final determination belongs to the SA. If the charge(s) are misdemeanors, and the victim does not want to press charges, they usually are not brought. But in a felony case, not so much.
So, the bottom line is that neither the victim nor Wheaton had a legal choice to make any type of secret agreement not to pursue charges. To do so, or even to attempt to do so by Wheaton's not reporting the injuries if the hospital hadn't, would have been illegal in itself.
I rest my case.  :)

ChicagoHopeNut

Quote from: izzy stradlin on September 22, 2017, 02:40:37 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/documents-show-wheaton-college-doubted-story-alleged-hazing/story?id=50023705

That is an interesting read. The article seems to suggest that the letter to the alleged victim focused on whether or not a "sexual assault" occurred and Wheaton concluded the allegations of "sexual assault" were not believable but did conclude other allegations were accurate. The article says the letter references the alleged victim being "bound and blindfolded."

A lot of missing pieces but some holes are being plugged in my mind as to how Wheaton and the SA reached different conclusions.

Has anyone heard who the "outside firm" Wheaton hired was? I assume law firm but that has never been explicit. Whatever firm it is may be really happy its name remains a secret.
Tribes of primitve hunters, with rhinestone codpieces rampant, should build pyramids of Chevy engines covered in butterscotch syrup to exalt the diastolic, ineffable, scintillated and cacophonous salamander of truth which slimes and distracts from each and every orifice of your holy refrigerator.

shepherd

Romans 1:29
They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are GOSSIPS,

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also GOSSIPS and busybodies, saying what they should not.

2 Corinthians 12:20
20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, GOSSIP, conceit, and disorder.



Proverbs 26:17
17 Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own
    is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears.

Proverbs 11:9
With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.


Warren Thompson

Quote from: Go Thunder on September 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Romans 1:29
They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are GOSSIPS,

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also GOSSIPS and busybodies, saying what they should not.

2 Corinthians 12:20
20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, GOSSIP, conceit, and disorder.



Proverbs 26:17
17 Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own
    is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears.

Proverbs 11:9
With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.



Go Thunder: without intending to be flippant, anti-Wheaton, and anti-Christianity, I would be grateful if you could explain how the Biblical texts you quote above are relevant to the current problem at Wheaton.

~ wt

lmitzel

Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on September 22, 2017, 04:10:29 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on September 22, 2017, 02:40:37 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/documents-show-wheaton-college-doubted-story-alleged-hazing/story?id=50023705

That is an interesting read. The article seems to suggest that the letter to the alleged victim focused on whether or not a "sexual assault" occurred and Wheaton concluded the allegations of "sexual assault" were not believable but did conclude other allegations were accurate. The article says the letter references the alleged victim being "bound and blindfolded."

A lot of missing pieces but some holes are being plugged in my mind as to how Wheaton and the SA reached different conclusions.

For me the shoulder injury is a really interesting topic. If the accuser has no record of shoulder tears pre-incident and there isn't a huge time gap between his last doctor visit and March 2016, Wheaton could really end up with a lot of egg on its face since they seem certain he hid something from them.
Quote from: Warren Thompson on September 22, 2017, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Go Thunder on September 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Romans 1:29
They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are GOSSIPS,

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also GOSSIPS and busybodies, saying what they should not.

2 Corinthians 12:20
20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, GOSSIP, conceit, and disorder.



Proverbs 26:17
17 Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own
    is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears.

Proverbs 11:9
With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.



Go Thunder: without intending to be flippant, anti-Wheaton, and anti-Christianity, I would be grateful if you could explain how the Biblical texts you quote above are relevant to the current problem at Wheaton.

~ wt

Not to defend his cherry-picking from the Bible, but I think our discussion of possible legal ramifications is "gossip" to him, judging by his use of all caps. But I personally think he's full of it; I don't see how any of this is gossip.
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Gregory Sager

You're casting that question into the howling wind, WT. He will not answer you.

Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on September 22, 2017, 04:10:29 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on September 22, 2017, 02:40:37 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/documents-show-wheaton-college-doubted-story-alleged-hazing/story?id=50023705

That is an interesting read. The article seems to suggest that the letter to the alleged victim focused on whether or not a "sexual assault" occurred and Wheaton concluded the allegations of "sexual assault" were not believable but did conclude other allegations were accurate. The article says the letter references the alleged victim being "bound and blindfolded."

A lot of missing pieces but some holes are being plugged in my mind as to how Wheaton and the SA reached different conclusions.

Has anyone heard who the "outside firm" Wheaton hired was? I assume law firm but that has never been explicit. Whatever firm it is may be really happy its name remains a secret.

I'm actually more curious about the discrepancy regarding the alleged victim's injuries to his shoulders, because I think that that's a more tangible aspect to the difference of opinion between Wheaton's findings and the findings of local law enforcement. After all, if the alleged assailants were grabbing at the kid's clothing, while one of them (Spielman, apparently) was making sexual threats, then the alleged victim could've interpreted what his tormentors were doing to him in grabbing at his clothing as being sexual in nature, even if that wasn't the actual intent behind the grabbing.

The shoulder injuries, on the other hand, are based upon cut-and-dried medical evidence rather than subjective statements regarding intent as far as the sex stuff is concerned. Wheaton said in its "Letter of Decision" that it believed the testimony of the alleged victim's roommate, who told the independent investigator that the alleged victim arrived at Wheaton with a bum shoulder. The alleged victim's lawyer, however, said that this was not true, and that the victim was participating in football drills and weight training prior to the attack -- and that he came out of the attack with two damaged shoulders, not one. And the lawyer says that the police have acquired the medical file that proves it.

That medical file might turn out to be the smoking gun as far as the aggravated assault charges are concerned.

QuoteThe letter also asserted that the alleged victim had failed to disclose an earlier high school shoulder injury – which the college says was reported to investigators by his former roommate. That "omission," the administrators wrote, resulted in "significant concern about [the alleged victim's] credibility...and led us to wonder if other parts of the....story were exaggerated."

"The victim did not have an existing shoulder injury the night of the attack," counters Ekl, who says the young man was participating in football drills and weight training around the time of the incident. He says the alleged victim had never suffered a shoulder injury prior to the attack and his entire medical file was provided to police before the criminal charges were approved.

"The victim suffered two labrum tears – one in each shoulder," Ekl said. "This does not occur from playing around and incidental contact. While the victim had his arms taped behind his back, he was drug around by the defendants which caused the tears to the labrum. No other possible explanation exists."
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: lmitzel on September 22, 2017, 05:17:17 PM
For me the shoulder injury is a really interesting topic. If the accuser has no record of shoulder tears pre-incident and there isn't a huge time gap between his last doctor visit and March 2016, Wheaton could really end up with a lot of egg on its face since they seem certain he hid something from them.

He would've needed to have a full physical exam done before he would've been cleared for spring football drills, which his lawyer said that he was participating in around the time of the attack. That physical would've had to have taken place after he came to college; i.e., after his alleged high-school shoulder injury. Schools are very hardcore about enforcing the requirement to have a physical taken, not just because of the pertinent NCAA bylaw:

Quote17.1.5 Mandatory Medical Examination.
  • Prior to participation in any practice, competition or out-of-season conditioning activities (or in Division I, permissible voluntary summer conditioning or individual workouts, or permissible required summer athletic activities in basketball and football), student-athletes who are beginning their initial season of eligibility and students who are trying out for a team shall be required to undergo a medical examination or evaluation administered or supervised by a physician (e.g., family physician, team physician). A nurse practitioner whose state medical licensure allows for health care practice independent of physician supervision may complete the medical examination without supervision by a physician. The examination or evaluation must be administered within six months prior to participation in any practice, competition or out-of-season conditioning activities. In following years, an updated history of the student-athlete's medical condition shall be administered by an institutional medical staff member (e.g., sports medicine staff, team physician) to determine if additional examinations (e.g., physical, cardiovascular, neurological) are required. The updated history must be administered within six months prior to the student-athlete's participation in any practice, competition or out-of-season conditioning activities for the applicable academic year. (Adopted: 1/8/07 effective 5/1/07, Revised: 8/5/08, 6/5/15, 10/29/15)
... but because of the insurance headache for the school that would be involved if a student-athlete suffered an injury affected by an undisclosed pre-existing medical condition.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

AndOne

Quote from: Warren Thompson on September 22, 2017, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Go Thunder on September 22, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Romans 1:29
They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are GOSSIPS,

1 Timothy 5:13
Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also GOSSIPS and busybodies, saying what they should not.

2 Corinthians 12:20
20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, GOSSIP, conceit, and disorder.



Proverbs 26:17
17 Whoever meddles in a quarrel not his own
    is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears.

Proverbs 11:9
With his mouth the godless man would destroy his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.



Go Thunder: without intending to be flippant, anti-Wheaton, and anti-Christianity, I would be grateful if you could explain how the Biblical texts you quote above are relevant to the current problem at Wheaton.

~ wt

I think this is his way of saying non-believers/outsiders are picking on and casting false aspersions on Wheaton, and that in the end the false claims of the non believers will be cast off and Wheaton will emerge triumphant. Just a hunch.  ::)

Gregory Sager

It's just my opinion, of course, but I think that we'd all be better off if we just stopped talking about Go Thunder's posts. After all, he doesn't seem to be paying any attention to ours.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

CardinalAlum

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 22, 2017, 05:59:58 PM
It's just my opinion, of course, but I think that we'd all be better off if we just stopped talking about Go Thunder's posts. After all, he doesn't seem to be paying any attention to ours.

Amen...
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