Author Topic: Future of Division III  (Read 817712 times)

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2880 on: November 23, 2021, 10:00:34 am »
monsoon,
Here is the statement on their site:  "At the conclusion of the 2020-21 academic year, AU will transition from the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA), the River States Conference (RSC) and the Appalachian Athletic Conference (AAC)."

It is interesting that the release you quoted doesn't mention anything about seeking a D3 conference affiliation.   They were approved for D3 provisional status starting this year (thus leaving NAIA and the conferences mentioned) with the fourth year waived, are playing a lot of D3 schools in the region, but are participating in NCCAA championships starting this year (since ineligible for NCAA championships).

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2881 on: November 23, 2021, 11:04:51 am »
This isn't the future of D3 in particular, but reflects a trend impacting D3 schools - I was surfing Wittenberg's site after the post about their football coach retiring and their numbers are WAY down.   According to the Witt by the numbers site, their Fall 2021 enrollment is 1254 FTE.  In Fall 2020 it was 1445, a year earlier 1577 (per this story).  Pat has them at 1842; in 2016 they were a little over 1900.   Don't know too many schools who can survive a plummet like that for long.  Their endowment is somewhere north of $100M, and there's a $100M campaign underway that is well on its way to completion, so they have the resources to survive for the short-term - but absent getting a handle on why enrollment has declined so precipitously over the last five years, a long-term future is less assured.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2882 on: November 28, 2021, 10:57:53 pm »
I know it won't mean this, but would be cool if some of these changes would open the door to make it easier for some D3 schools to elevate 1-2 programs to the Division 1 level. A lot of schools would benefit from additional exposure and a prorated revenue boost if they were allowed to have women's basketball or men's soccer serve as an adjunct member of a D1 conference.

D3 very clearly went the other way 25-30 years ago, and about 10 years ago shut down the idea altogether going forward. I believe all of the grandfathered programs in men's soccer and almost all of them in lax have now shifted. JHU Lax, Hobart Lax (though I think they shifted back and forth once, maybe?), and Colorado College women's soccer might be the last of them. There are still a few Ice Hockey schools, mainly in the northeast, and then a bunch of schools in non-D3 sports like Rifle, Gymnastics, Bowling, Fencing and Skiing.

I think most schools found it was a massive money drain. Building D1 facilities, staff, and compliance departments for 1 sport simply wasn't worth what little exposure and money they got in those sports that aren't the big 2 of football and basketball. The ones that hang on have deep pockets and history, like JHU lacrosse, or are involved in small Olympic sport programs mostly.

The entire idea of DIII having schools add individual sports in DI is over. Those schools as mentioned that are grandfathered in and were allowed because ice hockey needed growth exist and their numbers won't increase.

Remember another key ... the D1 and D3 budgets have to be separate and D1 can't benefit D3 directly. Case in point, at Hopkins they built an entire building for lacrosse, but that isn't used for DIII athletes. Also, the new field is certainly used for other sports other than lacrosse, BUT ... anyone who watches Hopkins football will tell you it is one of the stranger looking fields ... because it is designed mainly for lacrosse.

But DIII schools adding DI sports just isn't going to happen anymore.
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Offline smedindy

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2883 on: November 30, 2021, 12:07:20 pm »
This isn't the future of D3 in particular, but reflects a trend impacting D3 schools - I was surfing Wittenberg's site after the post about their football coach retiring and their numbers are WAY down.   According to the Witt by the numbers site, their Fall 2021 enrollment is 1254 FTE.  In Fall 2020 it was 1445, a year earlier 1577 (per this story).  Pat has them at 1842; in 2016 they were a little over 1900.   Don't know too many schools who can survive a plummet like that for long.  Their endowment is somewhere north of $100M, and there's a $100M campaign underway that is well on its way to completion, so they have the resources to survive for the short-term - but absent getting a handle on why enrollment has declined so precipitously over the last five years, a long-term future is less assured.

Here's a link about Witt's enrollment:

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/wittenberg-clark-state-enrollment-declines-mirror-national-trend/VD6WFH36GZH3XDCJQIVY5DPDFE/

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2884 on: November 30, 2021, 12:59:02 pm »
This isn't the future of D3 in particular, but reflects a trend impacting D3 schools - I was surfing Wittenberg's site after the post about their football coach retiring and their numbers are WAY down.   According to the Witt by the numbers site, their Fall 2021 enrollment is 1254 FTE.  In Fall 2020 it was 1445, a year earlier 1577 (per this story).  Pat has them at 1842; in 2016 they were a little over 1900.   Don't know too many schools who can survive a plummet like that for long.  Their endowment is somewhere north of $100M, and there's a $100M campaign underway that is well on its way to completion, so they have the resources to survive for the short-term - but absent getting a handle on why enrollment has declined so precipitously over the last five years, a long-term future is less assured.

Here's a link about Witt's enrollment:

https://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/wittenberg-clark-state-enrollment-declines-mirror-national-trend/VD6WFH36GZH3XDCJQIVY5DPDFE/

Unfortunately, that story reports Wittenberg's 2020 numbers as 2021 numbers.   If you look at the actual Witt by the Numbers site linked in my message the decrease from 2020 (1445) to 2021 (1254) is more like 13% than the reported 8.3%.

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2885 on: December 07, 2021, 08:42:09 am »
The NCAA has published the results of a survey taken of the membership after the recent constitutional rework meetings.   I haven't had the time to go through it in detail but there are definitely some nuggets in there, such as

Quote
Division 3 is not asking for more of Division 1’s revenue. Division 3 is calling out the fact that our membership is larger than Division 2, and that Division 2 also brings in zero revenue. We don’t want D1’s money -- we want equity with D2 […] we’d like D2 to agree to part with some of their funding in a show of good faith. –DIII, New England Women’s and Men’s Conference

I think the chance of D2 voluntarily giving up one cent of their money is about the same as Santa coming down my chimney in a few weeks.   

Then there's also this
Quote
There is significant concern over the limitation of revenue sources to 1996 for Divisions II and III. The specific argument is that, “we need a guarantee model that is financially feasible in the future. If we don’t have access to proper revenue streams, then we can’t meet the needs of our student-athletes.” I don’t think the percentage is nearly as big of a deal to our institutions as the basis. –DII, Conference Carolinas

It must be clear and unambiguous that Division II and III allocations do not include any new revenue and are tied to the revenue sources available when the provision was first adopted. –I, Sun Belt Conference

Forget Santa coming down the chimney, it would be Santa, all the reindeer, the elves, and the sleigh showing up in my living room before D1 will share any of the huge revenue gains they have seen since the mid-90s.

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2886 on: December 07, 2021, 10:36:11 am »
The NCAA has published the results of a survey taken of the membership after the recent constitutional rework meetings.   I haven't had the time to go through it in detail but there are definitely some nuggets in there, such as

Quote
Division 3 is not asking for more of Division 1’s revenue. Division 3 is calling out the fact that our membership is larger than Division 2, and that Division 2 also brings in zero revenue. We don’t want D1’s money -- we want equity with D2 […] we’d like D2 to agree to part with some of their funding in a show of good faith. –DIII, New England Women’s and Men’s Conference

I think the chance of D2 voluntarily giving up one cent of their money is about the same as Santa coming down my chimney in a few weeks.   

Then there's also this
Quote
There is significant concern over the limitation of revenue sources to 1996 for Divisions II and III. The specific argument is that, “we need a guarantee model that is financially feasible in the future. If we don’t have access to proper revenue streams, then we can’t meet the needs of our student-athletes.” I don’t think the percentage is nearly as big of a deal to our institutions as the basis. –DII, Conference Carolinas

It must be clear and unambiguous that Division II and III allocations do not include any new revenue and are tied to the revenue sources available when the provision was first adopted. –I, Sun Belt Conference

Forget Santa coming down the chimney, it would be Santa, all the reindeer, the elves, and the sleigh showing up in my living room before D1 will share any of the huge revenue gains they have seen since the mid-90s.

Yeah, but what are the membership numbers these days?  Does D1 and D3 combined make up 2/3rds of the votes?  If so, they can force that change in exchange for something D1 wants.
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Offline jknezek

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2887 on: December 07, 2021, 10:39:54 am »

Yeah, but what are the membership numbers these days?  Does D1 and D3 combined make up 2/3rds of the votes?  If so, they can force that change in exchange for something D1 wants.

They do. According to the NCAA.org site, D1 350, D2 310, D3 438.

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2888 on: December 07, 2021, 11:37:04 am »

Yeah, but what are the membership numbers these days?  Does D1 and D3 combined make up 2/3rds of the votes?  If so, they can force that change in exchange for something D1 wants.

They do. According to the NCAA.org site, D1 350, D2 310, D3 438.

Very interesting thought.  But why would D1 support D3 over D2 - or perhaps, what quid could D3 offer D1 pro quo, because the next time D1 does anything out of the goodness of their heart would be the first?

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2889 on: December 07, 2021, 12:36:46 pm »

Yeah, but what are the membership numbers these days?  Does D1 and D3 combined make up 2/3rds of the votes?  If so, they can force that change in exchange for something D1 wants.

They do. According to the NCAA.org site, D1 350, D2 310, D3 438.

Very interesting thought.  But why would D1 support D3 over D2 - or perhaps, what quid could D3 offer D1 pro quo, because the next time D1 does anything out of the goodness of their heart would be the first?

There's some merit in apportioning money based on membership, right?  An even split is still more per school for D2 than for D3.  You might not want to vote against your own interests as a D2 school, but there's at least rationale for D1 coming along, especially if they get something out of it.
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Offline Inkblot

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2890 on: December 16, 2021, 03:18:27 pm »
https://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1471571689720930308

"Each division shall determine whether to allow an institution to classify a sport in a division other than the division in which it holds membership..."

That could be a significant change... but it seems like a decision on this inherently involves multiple divisions.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2891 on: December 16, 2021, 04:09:26 pm »
https://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1471571689720930308

"Each division shall determine whether to allow an institution to classify a sport in a division other than the division in which it holds membership..."

That could be a significant change... but it seems like a decision on this inherently involves multiple divisions.

It won't change anything in DIII ... there is no interest in opening the door back up again. DIII put that in place... DIII is going to keep it in place. They have already given a little more autonomy to those who have DI programs with how they run those programs, that is about as much leash as they are going to allow as a division.
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Offline TheChucker

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2892 on: December 18, 2021, 01:29:10 pm »
Does anyone know if D3 players can participate in NIL funds? Could Bobby Joe's car dealership in Timbuktu D3 town steer some money via NIL towards D3 athletes? There are all kinds of shenanigans happening with NIL in D1 right now. Players/schools are getting creative in finding ways to fund athletes.

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2893 on: December 18, 2021, 01:46:23 pm »
Does anyone know if D3 players can participate in NIL funds? Could Bobby Joe's car dealership in Timbuktu D3 town steer some money via NIL towards D3 athletes? There are all kinds of shenanigans happening with NIL in D1 right now. Players/schools are getting creative in finding ways to fund athletes.

Schools and conferences need to develop their own policies on how to do it - namely that the school doesn't arrange it nor does the student athlete use the school name/logo etc in their advertising.  We've already seen some places get into trouble with athletes wearing school uniforms in advertising and I know the NCAA has taken aim at deals where every member of the team gets a set amount of money.

It'll take a while to figure it out, but there are definitely d3 players with NIL deals right now.

The one that's made the most sense to me are apparel companies that give promo codes to athletes and then split proceeds on items bought with that code.
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Offline TheChucker

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2894 on: December 18, 2021, 03:42:33 pm »
Does anyone know if D3 players can participate in NIL funds? Could Bobby Joe's car dealership in Timbuktu D3 town steer some money via NIL towards D3 athletes? There are all kinds of shenanigans happening with NIL in D1 right now. Players/schools are getting creative in finding ways to fund athletes.

Schools and conferences need to develop their own policies on how to do it - namely that the school doesn't arrange it nor does the student athlete use the school name/logo etc in their advertising.  We've already seen some places get into trouble with athletes wearing school uniforms in advertising and I know the NCAA has taken aim at deals where every member of the team gets a set amount of money.

It'll take a while to figure it out, but there are definitely d3 players with NIL deals right now.

The one that's made the most sense to me are apparel companies that give promo codes to athletes and then split proceeds on items bought with that code.

The promo code thing is a great idea. It's common among youth sports organizations to do that.

Another idea popping into my head would be athletes doing self-made video podcasts and promoting merchandise with promo codes in a similar fashion. The viewership might be small for most, but some interesting industrious/entrepreneurial athletes could probably get some popularity.