MBB: New Jersey Athletic Conference

Started by njachoopsfan, March 16, 2005, 01:15:46 PM

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NJBALLERZ

Thank you Phil... I am glad someone on these boards has some common sense.

Big W for Montclair last night over NJCU. Montclair is the only undefeated team remaining in league play. They travel to TCNJ this weekend. Montclair found a special player in transfer Akbar Hoffman... the 2014 HS Graduate has been scoring at will.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: phil on December 05, 2018, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: jmcozenlaw on December 03, 2018, 10:20:05 AM

The "worse academic institution" argument rings so hollow in my opinion. I've got several wealthy clients who did not go to "elite" academic institutions. In fact, three of them didn't even finish college (one is worth north of $210 million). Tiny little DelVal, in bucolic Doylestown, just posted the statistics from the 2016-2017 academic year regarding the first time pass rate for the CPA Exam. Of the 104 colleges and universities who offer an Accounting major/minor, DelVal was #5 in the PA with a 92.8% pass rate. They were above schools like Villanova, Temple, Pitt, Penn State, Moravian, Bucknell, Lehigh and others.

As my accountant (from the old Bloomsburg State University) always tells me, "a debit is a debit...................a credit is a credit. Whether you are learning it from a TA in a building with Ivy on it or in a state school, from a tenured professor, who actually worked in the business.................it's all the same".

Stop the "worse academic institution" nonsense. I went to Swarthmore and it has never impressed any of my clients. The return that I deliver on their investments each year is all that they care about. If I went to Whatsamatter U, I'd still be managing their risk capital. Because I'm good, not because I'm a Swatty. Now let me get back to my day job.................after starting the day with a killer triple leveraged short natural gas play (DGAZ) from Thursday. Cha ching!! ;)

Not everybody who fails to get a college degree winds up with a $210 million net worth. A credit is indeed a credit – and with some hard work a degree will give you a chance for success in your field of choice upon graduation. Usually it helps to graduate. Swarthmore 4-year grad rate = 89%. NJCU 4-year grad rate = 7%. If I were a parent, I'd definitely be questioning the wisdom of moving from Rowan to NJCU in order to play a sport you'll be leaving behind upon graduation. Now get that guy with the $210M in touch with Mr. Coleman!

Considering where I know you got those numbers ... I would read the finer-print a bit more. That is first-time, full-time, students at NJCU who finished their degree within four years. That doesn't count transfers coming in, that doesn't account for those who take more than four years (more common generally across the country), or other factors. Furthermore, NJCU and many of the New Jersey schools are very popular for students who are doing many other things like working full-time during any or all of their educational time. As a result, they are taking maybe five or six years to graduate - and if you noticed those numbers NJCU is right in the average around the country.

BTW - transfers are a data number that gets lost in a LOT of graduation rate break-downs. Transfering, as Ryan pointed out, is pretty popular in New Jersey because a vast majority of the schools are commuter schools. Students are doing a lot more than going to school.

NJCU isn't actually for you if you were the parent - it's more set-up for those who don't have parents who can afford to pay college.

Your comparison of Swat in this case missed the point presented by jmcoeznlaw about Swat. He wasn't comparing graduation rates. He was pointing out the name on the degree means nothing in the grand scheme of things once everyone enters the "real" world.

Back to the bigger point ... let's stop using personal points of view as a benchmark and barometer for how schools and and conferences should conduct themselves. Just because you don't like the practice doesn't mean it should be banned. I don't like Winter Squash, but not surprisingly that dislike won't get it banned from store shelves or ripped out of the food chain. Even if I was in charge of agriculture, it isn't changing the fact winter squash is going to be cultivated and sold - and eaten. The idea that because someone doesn't like transferring from one school to another, especially for sports, and thus it should be banned ... is disingenuous in so many ways.

(BTW the fact one only named four transfers to complain about ... is even more glaring.)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: NJBALLERZ on December 06, 2018, 02:28:27 PM
Thank you Phil... I am glad someone on these boards has some common sense.

Get over yourself. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean they or you are the ones with common sense. That isn't how this works.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

hoya73

I think this conversation has veered off from shedding light to just adding heat.  I do think Dave's comments generally about the nature of many NJAC schools is correct and that this is a conference where expanding educational opportunities to as many as possible is a good thing.  Putting that aside, Dave, don't you think that at least prohibiting mid-season transfer and immediate eligibility deserves some consideration?  I think it's a bit unseemly to face a player in one uniform in the first semester and then twice more in a different uniform in the second semester.  I don't think that necessarily furthers the behavior we should be striving for.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: hoya73 on December 07, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
I think this conversation has veered off from shedding light to just adding heat.  I do think Dave's comments generally about the nature of many NJAC schools is correct and that this is a conference where expanding educational opportunities to as many as possible is a good thing.  Putting that aside, Dave, don't you think that at least prohibiting mid-season transfer and immediate eligibility deserves some consideration?  I think it's a bit unseemly to face a player in one uniform in the first semester and then twice more in a different uniform in the second semester.  I don't think that necessarily furthers the behavior we should be striving for.

I don't have an opinion. I haven't seen it be a big deal and I have not seen it have a direct impact on the rest of the season - if it has happened, it is very, very rare. Schools and conferences are welcome to consider it - we've pointed out the WIAC has restrictions - but in DIII, I am not a fan ... as Ryan has pointed out ... of restricting students their options just because they play sports. In Division III, sports isn't supposed to be front and center in general. If they aren't getting special treatment to get on campus, why would we put in restrictions to make it difficult to leave campus and go to another?
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh



There is plenty to distract this time of the season. Finals, holidays, even weather. Staying focused on each practice and game is just a bit more challenging in December.

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jmcozenlaw

Quote from: phil on December 05, 2018, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: jmcozenlaw on December 03, 2018, 10:20:05 AM

The "worse academic institution" argument rings so hollow in my opinion. I've got several wealthy clients who did not go to "elite" academic institutions. In fact, three of them didn't even finish college (one is worth north of $210 million). Tiny little DelVal, in bucolic Doylestown, just posted the statistics from the 2016-2017 academic year regarding the first time pass rate for the CPA Exam. Of the 104 colleges and universities who offer an Accounting major/minor, DelVal was #5 in the PA with a 92.8% pass rate. They were above schools like Villanova, Temple, Pitt, Penn State, Moravian, Bucknell, Lehigh and others.

As my accountant (from the old Bloomsburg State University) always tells me, "a debit is a debit...................a credit is a credit. Whether you are learning it from a TA in a building with Ivy on it or in a state school, from a tenured professor, who actually worked in the business.................it's all the same".

Stop the "worse academic institution" nonsense. I went to Swarthmore and it has never impressed any of my clients. The return that I deliver on their investments each year is all that they care about. If I went to Whatsamatter U, I'd still be managing their risk capital. Because I'm good, not because I'm a Swatty. Now let me get back to my day job.................after starting the day with a killer triple leveraged short natural gas play (DGAZ) from Thursday. Cha ching!! ;)

Not everybody who fails to get a college degree winds up with a $210 million net worth. A credit is indeed a credit – and with some hard work a degree will give you a chance for success in your field of choice upon graduation. Usually it helps to graduate. Swarthmore 4-year grad rate = 89%. NJCU 4-year grad rate = 7%. If I were a parent, I'd definitely be questioning the wisdom of moving from Rowan to NJCU in order to play a sport you'll be leaving behind upon graduation. Now get that guy with the $210M in touch with Mr. Coleman!

Mr. Coleman has plenty of money. ;)

jmcozenlaw

Quote from: NJBALLERZ on December 06, 2018, 02:28:27 PM
Thank you Phil... I am glad someone on these boards has some common sense.

Big W for Montclair last night over NJCU. Montclair is the only undefeated team remaining in league play. They travel to TCNJ this weekend. Montclair found a special player in transfer Akbar Hoffman... the 2014 HS Graduate has been scoring at will.

First sentence = clown comment from the clown section. :)

jmcozenlaw

Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 04, 2018, 11:18:13 PM
Any of those clients want to support a network of news websites?  ;D

;)

jmcozenlaw

I did notice how phil and the ballerz character didn't touch the CPA Pass Rate comment and how little DelVal was #5 (out of 104 colleges and universities) in PA with the highest pass rate, besting many, eh hemm, more "prestigious" institutions. Again, a debit is a debit and a credit is a credit. This stuff is so darned fundamental. I can hear my Bloomsburg State College educated C.P.A. laughing from one of his other homes, down in Key West. A PA state school..................imagine that. ;)

CCHoopster

What's the scoop in the NJAC? Is there a clear cut top 1 or 2? MSU?

hoya73

Cozen--please relax.  A credit is a credit but a credit is not relevant to the discussion here.  It was a discussion about how liberal transfer rules ought to be.  Everyone agrees that all of the NJAC institutions produce many successful graduates and afford great opportunities.

CC--it looks to be a brutally competitive year.  Several teams that could be very good.  MSU may in fact emerge as the strongest team (not sure about JCU or Willy P right now) but there will be a lot of bloodletting that will hamper at large bid prospects, as always.  Very few gimmes out there.

phil

Quote from: jmcozenlaw on December 09, 2018, 06:15:09 PM
I did notice how phil and the ballerz character didn't touch the CPA Pass Rate comment and how little DelVal was #5 (out of 104 colleges and universities) in PA with the highest pass rate, besting many, eh hemm, more "prestigious" institutions. Again, a debit is a debit and a credit is a credit. This stuff is so darned fundamental. I can hear my Bloomsburg State College educated C.P.A. laughing from one of his other homes, down in Key West. A PA state school..................imagine that. ;)
jmcozenlaw, I defer to you. DVC's CPAs in training can sleep peacefully tonight knowing their collective futures are assured.

A credit is a credit? While you're entitled to your opinion, I find it oversimplified and in some instances, just plain wrong. You've decided what researchers have argued for years. You ignore the very real recruiting practices of some blue-chip companies, especially on Wall Street and among consulting companies, that only look at graduates of elite schools. What about the connections you make and the alumni network you have at your disposal when you're a business major and graduate from one of those "eh hemm, more 'prestigious' institutions". Then there's the statistics of career earnings of those who attended a tier 1 vs. a tier 2 university. Who has a better chance, given the same GPA, of being accepted to medical school?
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/weekinreview/19steinberg.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/05/does-it-matter-where-you-go-to-college/257227/

Not everybody is trying to become a CPA, not all majors have a test at the end of them to decide that you're fit to enter the workplace, and not every manager is enlightened enough to look at two resumes and put the candidates on an even playing field no matter where they graduated from... especially when you're trying to find your first post-college employment.

I went to high school (and jr. high) with the founder of JANA partners, LLC. Last I looked his net worth was $1.4B. He got his CPA from that dang "hoity-toity" Lehigh, and then followed it up with even "hoitier and toitier" Wharton. While he doesn't own a house in Key West, he does have a couple houses in the Hamptons and broke the record for the most expensive home ever sold in the United States when he paid $137 million for another Hamptons property in 2014. (See I can smugly cite examples just like you).

Yup, a debit is a debit if you're a CPA, and for the rest of us a credit is a credit... sometimes, but definitely not all the time. And, full disclosure, the person who handles my money here in Texas, is a Glassboro State grad.

Now back to the subject of this thread... I have no opinion about NJAC players transferring between schools. As Dave pointed out, NJCU has a mission unlike many other schools and he's absolutely correct. I made a mistake choosing them as an example in my earlier post. The players transferring could be transferring for all the reasons which were cited by Dave and Ryan. This is DIII, and not exactly a problem. You want a problem? Look what's going on in D1 since the NCAA relaxed the transfer rules. I'm living in a softball world because of my youngest daughter... the Oregon Coach quits takes the the head coach position at Texas and half the team transfers with him. He effectively gutted a 2018 World Series team – not to mention what he did to Oregon recruiting in the process. Look for this rule to be amended by the NCAA – and soon.

CCHoopster

Whether a debit is a debit or credit a credit, this is still DIII. No one is bound to any school. Want them to stay, give them the best experience possible. If they enjoy where they are , why leave? If money or academics must take precedent over your experience, that's life and you move on. These young men are paying to be there, they don't owe anything to anyone. The loyalty card doesn't work today.

irapthor

Quote from: phil on December 05, 2018, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: jmcozenlaw on December 03, 2018, 10:20:05 AM

The "worse academic institution" argument rings so hollow in my opinion. I've got several wealthy clients who did not go to "elite" academic institutions. In fact, three of them didn't even finish college (one is worth north of $210 million). Tiny little DelVal, in bucolic Doylestown, just posted the statistics from the 2016-2017 academic year regarding the first time pass rate for the CPA Exam. Of the 104 colleges and universities who offer an Accounting major/minor, DelVal was #5 in the PA with a 92.8% pass rate. They were above schools like Villanova, Temple, Pitt, Penn State, Moravian, Bucknell, Lehigh and others.

As my accountant (from the old Bloomsburg State University) always tells me, "a debit is a debit...................a credit is a credit. Whether you are learning it from a TA in a building with Ivy on it or in a state school, from a tenured professor, who actually worked in the business.................it's all the same".

Stop the "worse academic institution" nonsense. I went to Swarthmore and it has never impressed any of my clients. The return that I deliver on their investments each year is all that they care about. If I went to Whatsamatter U, I'd still be managing their risk capital. Because I'm good, not because I'm a Swatty. Now let me get back to my day job.................after starting the day with a killer triple leveraged short natural gas play (DGAZ) from Thursday. Cha ching!! ;)

Not everybody who fails to get a college degree winds up with a $210 million net worth. A credit is indeed a credit – and with some hard work a degree will give you a chance for success in your field of choice upon graduation. Usually it helps to graduate. Swarthmore 4-year grad rate = 89%. NJCU 4-year grad rate = 7%. If I were a parent, I'd definitely be questioning the wisdom of moving from Rowan to NJCU in order to play a sport you'll be leaving behind upon graduation. Now get that guy with the $210M in touch with Mr. Coleman!

Phil, I've respected you quite a bit over the years so I'm just going to assume you don't know the difference between your alma mater and others. The reason NJCU's 4-year graduation rate is 7% is because nearly every one of our students, whether they play a sport or not, needs to work. Work to pay for school entirely or partially. It's the real world. School isn't free and not everyone has a wealthy mom or dad to foot the bill.

I'd like to think I'm a pretty intelligent person. You see what I've done with my life...in college and pro sports and in politics. I went to William Paterson. I took me 5 1/2 years to graduate. Why? I was paying for school and rent entirely by myself and had to hold down a full-time job AND several part time jobs or I would not have finished school. So I counted against WP's 4-year graduation rate. If mom and dad were paying for school perhaps I could have finished in four years. But that wasn't the case.

NJCU has an excellent business school right on Exchange Place that is attracting students from all around the world, including a huge number of Chinese exchange students. Our criminal justice program is among the best in the country and the number of FBI agents and state police we turn out is pretty impressive. It's a way better education than we are given credit for. The recently retired VP of the NBA is one of our Hall of Famers. One of the top federal judges in this part of the country is a former football captain. Several of the top politicians in the state came out of our poli sci program.

So don't judge a school based on its 4-year graduation rate. It's a skewed number that some elitists in the media use that doesn't accurately paint a picture of what real life looks like. Real life has challenges. I'm living proof.
Ira Thor
Award-winning former 20-year SID and Assistant AD at New Jersey City University. Current Chief Communications Officer. NY/NJ and national professional and collegiate PA announcer, PBP announcer and commentator. D3hoops.com Top voter since 2002......Howell Township (NJ) Board of Education...Husband/father of 3. Hasbeen soccer goalkeeper.