MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

Started by sac, February 19, 2005, 11:51:56 AM

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ziggy

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 03:58:19 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:51:37 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 03:47:25 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 02:59:08 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 02:52:05 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 02:49:16 PM
I looked up the two basketball coaches you mentioned plus Izzo. Here are their conference records:

Coach
Vande Streek          0.755
Knight (Indiana)      0.700
Izzo                  0.685
Weber                 0.578


Wanna include S.o.S? Pretty sure there's more above .500 in the Big Ten than in the MIAA.

I don't want to include SOS actually. That's why I chose conference winning percentage. It's a measure of what each coach "has done" relative to the league they're in.

There's no way you can compare D1 power conferences to D3 conferences. There are no similarities to speak of. That's why I asked for D3 coaches in the first place.

The comparison is the fact that the D1 coaches we're comparing him to played in conferences that had more than 3 or 4 teams any given year with above .500 records. That's completely comparable. If KVS is recording 16 to 19 wins per year (we'll exclude this years  sad excuse for a season) and he's doing it against teams that aren't even at the Mendoza line, the wins don't MEAN anything.

All but one MIAA team was above the Mendoza line this year.

All but one?

Albion   7   7   62.9   66.7      11   14   62.8   66.6
Alma   5   9   75.9   81.5      9   16   76.9   81.5
K-zoo   3   11   64.4   72.6      8   17   67.6   74.7
Olivet   2   12   66.1   81.9      4   21   65.2   79.3

If by one, you mean 4.

Ah yes, using a colloquial phrase and displaying no knowledge of its meaning. Classic!

Knight2Day

Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

Knight2Day

If Calvin were in the WIAC, the MACC, or the UAA my opinion would be different

KnightSlappy

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

Knight2Day

Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

I would argue it is an average conference at BEST and the problem is that people on our board talk like it is some proud conference sending 2 teams to the NCAA's every year (especially Calvin fans defending KVS). Yes, team should be happy to win the conference, but not if it means NOT making the NCAA's year after year. When the better part of a conference year after year is at or below .500, it is not a quality conference. Ask Hope's team this year if playing in the MIAA helped them. They had arguably the best team in the country and lost in the second round because the conference schedule didn't begin to adequately prepare them for a deep run. But we Calvin fans sit and point at the couple of MIAA regular season championships we have. 10 out of 10 I would take having been Hope the last 5 years and have gone to the NCAA's rather than win the regular season title. At least when they won the MIAA tourny, they cut down the nets..in their rivals house.

KnightSlappy

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

I would argue it is an average conference at BEST and the problem is that people on our board talk like it is some proud conference sending 2 teams to the NCAA's every year (especially Calvin fans defending KVS). Yes, team should be happy to win the conference, but not if it means NOT making the NCAA's year after year. When the better part of a conference year after year is at or below .500, it is not a quality conference. Ask Hope's team this year if playing in the MIAA helped them. They had arguably the best team in the country and lost in the second round because the conference schedule didn't begin to adequately prepare them for a deep run. But we Calvin fans sit and point at the couple of MIAA regular season championships we have. 10 out of 10 I would take having been Hope the last 5 years and have gone to the NCAA's rather than win the regular season title. At least when they won the MIAA tourny, they cut down the nets..in their rivals house.

I know of three online computer ranking systems that rate teams and conferences. MIAA ranked in the top half (11, 18, 20 out of 42 leagues) in each of them this season. That's not average at best. That's above average.

Knight2Day

Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

I would argue it is an average conference at BEST and the problem is that people on our board talk like it is some proud conference sending 2 teams to the NCAA's every year (especially Calvin fans defending KVS). Yes, team should be happy to win the conference, but not if it means NOT making the NCAA's year after year. When the better part of a conference year after year is at or below .500, it is not a quality conference. Ask Hope's team this year if playing in the MIAA helped them. They had arguably the best team in the country and lost in the second round because the conference schedule didn't begin to adequately prepare them for a deep run. But we Calvin fans sit and point at the couple of MIAA regular season championships we have. 10 out of 10 I would take having been Hope the last 5 years and have gone to the NCAA's rather than win the regular season title. At least when they won the MIAA tourny, they cut down the nets..in their rivals house.

I know of three online computer ranking systems that rate teams and conferences. MIAA ranked in the top half (11, 18, 20 out of 42 leagues) in each of them this season. That's not average at best. That's above average.

I guess I just have higher expectations than a computer ranking system then. Maybe we should start using the BCS system for college basketball since it has a better idea of talent level than human cognitive ability.

KnightSlappy

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:32:21 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

I would argue it is an average conference at BEST and the problem is that people on our board talk like it is some proud conference sending 2 teams to the NCAA's every year (especially Calvin fans defending KVS). Yes, team should be happy to win the conference, but not if it means NOT making the NCAA's year after year. When the better part of a conference year after year is at or below .500, it is not a quality conference. Ask Hope's team this year if playing in the MIAA helped them. They had arguably the best team in the country and lost in the second round because the conference schedule didn't begin to adequately prepare them for a deep run. But we Calvin fans sit and point at the couple of MIAA regular season championships we have. 10 out of 10 I would take having been Hope the last 5 years and have gone to the NCAA's rather than win the regular season title. At least when they won the MIAA tourny, they cut down the nets..in their rivals house.

I know of three online computer ranking systems that rate teams and conferences. MIAA ranked in the top half (11, 18, 20 out of 42 leagues) in each of them this season. That's not average at best. That's above average.

I guess I just have higher expectations than a computer ranking system then. Maybe we should start using the BCS system for college basketball since it has a better idea of talent level than human cognitive ability.

I would love a strict computer system to choose at-large NCAA teams!

How many different D3 teams did you see this year?

I also had the MIAA as #17 in D3 RPI. So there's a fourth.

GoKnights68

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

]I would argue it is an average conference at BEST and the problem is that people on our board talk like it is some proud conference sending 2 teams to the NCAA's every year (especially Calvin fans defending KVS). Yes, team should be happy to win the conference, but not if it means NOT making the NCAA's year after year. When the better part of a conference year after year is at or below .500, it is not a quality conference. Ask Hope's team this year if playing in the MIAA helped them. They had arguably the best team in the country and lost in the second round because the conference schedule didn't begin to adequately prepare them for a deep run. But we Calvin fans sit and point at the couple of MIAA regular season championships we have. 10 out of 10 I would take having been Hope the last 5 years and have gone to the NCAA's rather than win the regular season title. At least when they won the MIAA tourny, they cut down the nets..in their rivals house.

That's only happened 3 times since 2000.

Knight2Day

Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:34:31 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:32:21 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:27:58 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Mendoza line is .200

Correction noted. Regardless, my point is that the MIAA is a junk conference. Gone are the days when we had 2 or 3 teams in the top 25.

A 'junk' conference? The MIAA was probably average or a bit above last year. Agreed, it's definitely not the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, or NESCAC. But it's absolutely not a 'junk conference'.

I would argue it is an average conference at BEST and the problem is that people on our board talk like it is some proud conference sending 2 teams to the NCAA's every year (especially Calvin fans defending KVS). Yes, team should be happy to win the conference, but not if it means NOT making the NCAA's year after year. When the better part of a conference year after year is at or below .500, it is not a quality conference. Ask Hope's team this year if playing in the MIAA helped them. They had arguably the best team in the country and lost in the second round because the conference schedule didn't begin to adequately prepare them for a deep run. But we Calvin fans sit and point at the couple of MIAA regular season championships we have. 10 out of 10 I would take having been Hope the last 5 years and have gone to the NCAA's rather than win the regular season title. At least when they won the MIAA tourny, they cut down the nets..in their rivals house.

I know of three online computer ranking systems that rate teams and conferences. MIAA ranked in the top half (11, 18, 20 out of 42 leagues) in each of them this season. That's not average at best. That's above average.

I guess I just have higher expectations than a computer ranking system then. Maybe we should start using the BCS system for college basketball since it has a better idea of talent level than human cognitive ability.

I would love a strict computer system to choose at-large NCAA teams!

How many different D3 teams did you see this year?

I also had the MIAA as #17 in D3 RPI. So there's a fourth.

Are you kidding me? Use a computer system to decide who makes the NCAA tourny? And how many did I see? A friend plays for NPU, watched 3 of his games (vs. Coe, Loras, and Fontbonne), watched every team in the conference play vs the Knights, and watched the live feed for the Hope tourny games. I would say that covers 14 different teams.

On a different note, you still haven't explained to me why I should be happy with MIAA regular season titles instead of the NCAA tourny..or a 17-29 record vs. hope....

HopeConvert

Quote from: ziggy on April 02, 2012, 03:48:42 PM
Quote from: gohope on April 02, 2012, 03:42:04 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on April 02, 2012, 03:09:32 PM
FWIW, Shaka Smart has compiled a .704 winning percentage in three years in the CAA (no league titles).

Yeah, there might not be any league titles, but his teams have really helped me in my basketball pools!!   :)

With peaking, timing is everything!

That's what she said.

With piquing, timing is everything.

But GK already knew that.
One Mississippi, Two Mississippi...

sac

If you are comparing D3 resumes, KVS should be compared with.....

Grey Giovanne, Augustana
Bosko Djurickovic, Carthage
Steve Moore, Wooster
Bill Brown, Wittenberg
Pat Miller, Whitewater
Mike Moran, John Carroll

All guys who have coached at programs for a minimum of 10 years during KVS' tenure at Calvin, all with varying degrees of success within their conference and nationally. 


KnightSlappy

#33657
Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:40:41 PM
Are you kidding me? Use a computer system to decide who makes the NCAA tourny?

For the at-large teams? Absolutely.

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:40:41 PM
And how many did I see? A friend plays for NPU, watched 3 of his games (vs. Coe, Loras, and Fontbonne), watched every team in the conference play vs the Knights, and watched the live feed for the Hope tourny games. I would say that covers 14 different teams.

The other 96% of Division III wants to know how your 'human cognitive ability' knows how to rank them.

Quote from: Knight2Day on April 02, 2012, 04:40:41 PM
On a different note, you still haven't explained to me why I should be happy with MIAA regular season titles instead of the NCAA tourny..or a 17-29 record vs. hope....

Don't think I ever stated it like that. My stance has never been to be 'happy' with the last five years or so, just that KVS does not deserve to be fired. And that some perspective beyond West Michigan is beneficial.

KnightSlappy

Quote from: sac on April 02, 2012, 04:44:21 PM
If you are comparing D3 resumes, KVS should be compared with.....

Grey Giovanne, Augustana
Bosko Djurickovic, Carthage
Steve Moore, Wooster
Bill Brown, Wittenberg
Pat Miller, Whitewater
Mike Moran, John Carroll

All guys who have coached at programs for a minimum of 10 years during KVS' tenure at Calvin, all with varying degrees of success within their conference and nationally.

Thanks! These are the types of names I want. Hopefully I can do some leg work (I'll take help) and compile overall records, league records, tourney appearances, and tourney records for the above (plus others if you got them).

sac

and I still say the most telling stat about Calvin's last 7 years (actually 10 years) is zero MVP's.  Calvin has lacked that one player that could take a team from good to great.  Frequently that is all it has taken to produce a difference of finishing 1st or 2nd in the MIAA and having a deeper NCAA run.

Aultman was that type of guy in 2005, but Travis DePree just had a better year to get the MVP.