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Division III basketball (Posting Up) => Men's Basketball => Multi-Regional Topics => Topic started by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 11, 2012, 07:58:58 AM

Title: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 11, 2012, 07:58:58 AM

So the championship game will be played on Sunday, April 7th in Atlanta - but there's no real plan or schedule for the rest of the tournament.

I like the exposure, but somehow this seems like a debacle waiting to happen.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 12, 2012, 12:14:14 AM
There's a plan but the NCAA hasn't seen fit to include it in their Division I-centric coverage. We're not printing what we've been told without better confirmation but it is interesting.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: KnightSlappy on May 12, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 12, 2012, 12:14:14 AM
There's a plan but the NCAA hasn't seen fit to include it in their Division I-centric coverage. We're not printing what we've been told without better confirmation but it is interesting.

Does it include rounds of 8 and four in Salem?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 13, 2012, 03:11:36 PM
It does.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 12:31:04 PM
I can see it now...

Thank you UWSP, Amherst, F&M and IWU...

Do you wish to give your microphone time at this press conference to players from Duke?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hickory_cornhusker on May 14, 2012, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 12:31:04 PM
I can see it now...

Thank you UWSP, Amherst, F&M and IWU...

Do you wish to give your microphone time at this press conference to players from Duke?

I don't think it will be quite that bad. I more fear that they will just ask the D3 players endless questions about the D1 Final Four, or questions forcing the D3 players to validate their presence in Atlanta that weekend or being able to say they are under the D3 banner.

I don't fear this one because I absolutely believe it will happen: There will be at least one article written slamming the D3 and/or D2 schools for their talent level.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on May 14, 2012, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on May 14, 2012, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 12:31:04 PM
I can see it now...

Thank you UWSP, Amherst, F&M and IWU...

Do you wish to give your microphone time at this press conference to players from Duke?


I don't fear this one because I absolutely believe it will happen: There will be at least one article written slamming the D3 and/or D2 schools for their talent level.

Being the D3 fan that I am it's difficult to express how 'unhappy' that would/will make me
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Flying Dutch Fan on May 14, 2012, 03:32:29 PM
hopefan - I hear you.  The very thought of all of this makes it difficult for me to express how ridiculous this is - at least from a fan's point of view. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 04:02:20 PM
So the NCAA will validate the experiences and the cultures of the National Championships of D-II and D-III student-athlete competition by bringing them to the National Championship of D-1 to be the off-day entertainment? 

Hmmm? Does that work?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Flying Dutch Fan on May 14, 2012, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 04:02:20 PM
So the NCAA will validate the experiences and the cultures of the National Championships of D-II and D-III student-athlete competition by bringing them to the National Championship of D-1 to be the off-day entertainment? 

Hmmm? Does that work?

That would be a big fat NO in my book.  In fact, in some ways it says the NCAA is trying to invalidate the existing championship expereince in DII and DIII. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 20, 2012, 06:32:52 PM
For those interested... more information about the championship game in Atlanta can be found here: http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/05/dutcher-interview-2013-title-game (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/05/dutcher-interview-2013-title-game)

I talked with Dan Dutcher, Vice President for Division III, who answered a number of questions surrounding the decision and the event. Hope it provides you with a little bit of insight. I hope to provide a few more interviews in the coming months as more details are ironed out.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 20, 2012, 07:23:59 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 20, 2012, 06:32:52 PM
For those interested... more information about the championship game in Atlanta can be found here: http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/05/dutcher-interview-2013-title-game (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/05/dutcher-interview-2013-title-game)

I talked with Dan Dutcher, Vice President for Division III, who answered a number of questions surrounding the decision and the event. Hope it provides you with a little bit of insight. I hope to provide a few more interviews in the coming months as more details are ironed out.
Excellent interview...

First thoughts and questions:

Trying to learn from the experiences with lacrosse and ice hockey... (about the 9:00 mark of the interview)

(My gleanings as an outsider from the postings on the D3sports.com websites is that the lacrosse "family" is in many ways unique in collegiate athletics.  That does not seem translatable from lacrosse or ice hockey basketball.)

The temporal gap in the playoffs is addressed about 13:00.

Thoughts of how to give the Salem experience is about 15:30.

Dave's summaries and final comments at 20:00.

Next podcast update will be in about a month.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on May 21, 2012, 01:31:22 AM
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on May 14, 2012, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 04:02:20 PM
So the NCAA will validate the experiences and the cultures of the National Championships of D-II and D-III student-athlete competition by bringing them to the National Championship of D-1 to be the off-day entertainment? 

Hmmm? Does that work?

That would be a big fat NO in my book.  In fact, in some ways it says the NCAA is trying to invalidate the existing championship expereince in DII and DIII.
Whatever role the D3 title has in Salem, it was far worse than "off-day entertainment for the D-1 final four".  Put the game in front of the most eyeballs possible and let the players show what D3 is all about.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 21, 2012, 11:23:12 AM
Ralph - as one who follows lacrosse almost as closely as I do football and basketball... I would agree with your assessment that the lacrosse world is far more of a family across divisions then almost any other sport in the NCAA. Heck, when a D3 tournament game has a D1 coach as it's NCAA Representative and the sport's handbook encompasses all three divisions, then the attitude and committment is certainly different.

For those reasons and because of the history of Memorial Day Weekend, the lacrosse world is able to celebrate their championship weekend in grand style. I have been to many lacrosse championship weekends in several locations and it is very different than anything else I have experienced in the NCAA... but the fan base, institutions, coaches, and players help make it that way.

With all that being said, and with the understanding that no sport including hockey and basketball could duplicate what lacrosse has built and accomplished, I think the NCAA can take a page from that weekend to model other ideas, even on just one-time or short-period time frames.

No, the basketball weekend will not compare to lacrosse which is also a tight-knit family... but it may at least be able to take some of what works in promotions, schedules, events, and focus of the spotlight to help D3 and D2 still get the just due they deserve.

I personally look forward to seeing the games in Atlanta (it will mark the first time in my life I have been to the D1 Final Four) and experiencing the entire weekend. However, I hope this is a one-time event (women will have their event in the near future) and that D3 (along with D2) gets to go back to what as worked, arguably, for "our" division and "our" family.

Also, thanks for listening to the podcast... I promise more in the future... my "schedule" now allows it! :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: rlk on May 21, 2012, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: AO on May 21, 2012, 01:31:22 AM
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on May 14, 2012, 04:20:11 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 14, 2012, 04:02:20 PM
So the NCAA will validate the experiences and the cultures of the National Championships of D-II and D-III student-athlete competition by bringing them to the National Championship of D-1 to be the off-day entertainment? 

Hmmm? Does that work?

That would be a big fat NO in my book.  In fact, in some ways it says the NCAA is trying to invalidate the existing championship expereince in DII and DIII.
Whatever role the D3 title has in Salem, it was far worse than "off-day entertainment for the D-1 final four".  Put the game in front of the most eyeballs possible and let the players show what D3 is all about.

Agreed.

Salem was a big deal for me (as an MIT alum/fan).  It was a lot bigger, louder, and brighter (at least 2 stops brighter!) than Rockwell Cage.  But that's still small potatoes compared to a pro or D1 arena, and Salem is definitely more difficult to get to than a big city.  Flying to Roanoke involves a puddle jumper from somewhere else, and ground transportation was a bit hard to come by if you didn't want to rent a car.

The idea of giving D1 package holders free admission to the D2/D3 finals is a good one.  It's otherwise an off day for them, and if they want to take in some more college basketball, it's a great opportunity for them to do so.  Those who don't may just learn that it's their loss.

If the semifinalist D1 teams can be "encouraged" to attend the D2/D3 finals, that would also help build interest.

The rounds of 8 and 4 in Salem sound tricky to me.  That's 6 games.  The most obvious ways to do it would be to play all four quarterfinals on Friday and the semis on Saturday, or two quarterfinals on Friday and two on Saturday, with the two semifinal games on Sunday.  It's possible to play four games in one day -- the inaugural Koch Classic (which I managed) in the fall of 1986 at MIT did this, with two women's and two men's games -- but it made for an extremely long day of basketball.  The other way requires three days in Salem and has the Sunday problem.  The other problem either way is that it disrupts the pod structure of the early rounds of the tournament, and results in the finalists likely having to make four trips (rounds of 64 and 32, round of 16, rounds of 8 and 4, and round of 2).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 21, 2012, 11:47:50 AM
Quote from: rlk on May 21, 2012, 11:32:28 AM
The rounds of 8 and 4 in Salem sound tricky to me.  That's 6 games.  The most obvious ways to do it would be to play all four quarterfinals on Friday and the semis on Saturday, or two quarterfinals on Friday and two on Saturday, with the two semifinal games on Sunday.  It's possible to play four games in one day -- the inaugural Koch Classic (which I managed) in the fall of 1986 at MIT did this, with two women's and two men's games -- but it made for an extremely long day of basketball.  The other way requires three days in Salem and has the Sunday problem.  The other problem either way is that it disrupts the pod structure of the early rounds of the tournament, and results in the finalists likely having to make four trips (rounds of 64 and 32, round of 16, rounds of 8 and 4, and round of 2).

Salem can already do this... they host nearly the entire ODAC men's and women's basketball tournament in the last weekend of the regular season every year. That is 8 women and 8 men's teams and games played over three days. So the feasability and the scheduling for Salem wouldn't be an issue.

As far as the schedule, they would have to go with four games on Friday and two games on Saturday (or Saturday/Sunday - though I doubt that will be the best option due to schools like Hope, Calvin, Wheaton (Ill.) and others that have religious restrictions about games on Sundays and could be in that situation). 2/2/2 isn't fair to those two teams on Saturday who have to turn around and play on Sunday when the other two got a day off - plus if costs are a factor that is an extra night of hotel rooms.

The real question that won't be answered for awhile will be how Salem will be able to still create the incredible experience for the championship weekend with eight teams. Banquet/Community Service/Atmosphere and several others are things they have enjoyed providing for the student-athletes and the student-athletes have said they enjoy having. Some of that is going to have to be sacrificed next season... how much and what will be determined once the official schedule comes out and those in Salem and the ODAC have a chance to hash things out.

Finally... the only real question left is... what happens to the NABC All-Star Game... that is something that I can't even figure out in my head... so I can't imagine what those at the NABC are thinking.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hickory_cornhusker on May 21, 2012, 04:28:40 PM
How many teams have a no play on Sunday rule? Would it be possible to get all of them on one side of the bracket (Let's call this side Bracket A)?

Hickory_Cornhusker's Idea (I think D3 soccer used something similar this year or last when I believe Loras hosted the men's and women's regional pod.)
Friday night play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket A at 6 and 8.

Saturday afternoon play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket B at 1 and 3.
Saturday night play the Final Four game in Bracket A at 7.

Sunday afternoon play the Final Four game for Bracket B at 2.



This would solve the no play on Sunday rule. There would be no 4 games in one day. There would also be no extra day to prepare advantage for the Final Four games.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 21, 2012, 04:44:11 PM
Putting all those schools on the same side of the bracket just so they don't play on Sunday wouldn't be competitively fair... not to mention the fact, the brackets are somewhat regionalized to begin with... so you can't take schools from the Northeast, East, Mid-Atlantic, and Atlantic, for example, and put them on the same side with the South, West, Great Lakes, and Midwest... there would be FAR too many travel problems in the earlier rounds.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 22, 2012, 12:43:52 AM
Not that it matters because it won't be scheduled this way, I honestly don't think it matters if two teams in one semifinal played back-to-back nights and the two teams in the other semifinal played with a night off in between. With all the time off between the semifinals and the championship game, it doesn't matter where there's a day here or there.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: northb on May 22, 2012, 07:10:50 AM
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on May 21, 2012, 04:28:40 PM
How many teams have a no play on Sunday rule? Would it be possible to get all of them on one side of the bracket (Let's call this side Bracket A)?

Hickory_Cornhusker's Idea (I think D3 soccer used something similar this year or last when I believe Loras hosted the men's and women's regional pod.)
Friday night play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket A at 6 and 8.

Saturday afternoon play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket B at 1 and 3.
Saturday night play the Final Four game in Bracket A at 7.

Sunday afternoon play the Final Four game for Bracket B at 2.



This would solve the no play on Sunday rule. There would be no 4 games in one day. There would also be no extra day to prepare advantage for the Final Four games.
So your idea is to purposely pit the Christian schools against each other?

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hickory_cornhusker on May 22, 2012, 12:07:51 PM
Quote from: northb on May 22, 2012, 07:10:50 AM
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on May 21, 2012, 04:28:40 PM
How many teams have a no play on Sunday rule? Would it be possible to get all of them on one side of the bracket (Let's call this side Bracket A)?

Hickory_Cornhusker's Idea (I think D3 soccer used something similar this year or last when I believe Loras hosted the men's and women's regional pod.)
Friday night play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket A at 6 and 8.

Saturday afternoon play the 2 Elite 8 games in Bracket B at 1 and 3.
Saturday night play the Final Four game in Bracket A at 7.

Sunday afternoon play the Final Four game for Bracket B at 2.



This would solve the no play on Sunday rule. There would be no 4 games in one day. There would also be no extra day to prepare advantage for the Final Four games.
So your idea is to purposely pit the Christian schools against each other?

Not necessarily. There are several Christian schools that are allowed to play on Sunday. Let's say we have five schools in the bracket that can't play on Sunday. We scatter them among the 31 slots (assuming there are 62 teams again next year) on the left side of the bracket. Then we fill in the rest of the bracket appropriately from there going by geography, seeding, etc. Odds are there will be several teams in Bracket A that are allowed to play on Sunday.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 21, 2012, 04:44:11 PM
Putting all those schools on the same side of the bracket just so they don't play on Sunday wouldn't be competitively fair... not to mention the fact, the brackets are somewhat regionalized to begin with... so you can't take schools from the Northeast, East, Mid-Atlantic, and Atlantic, for example, and put them on the same side with the South, West, Great Lakes, and Midwest... there would be FAR too many travel problems in the earlier rounds.

You're think if we were to play this out in a normal year. Next year the travel is different. Once you get down to 8 teams it doesn't matter if Emory is playing St. Thomas that round and Williams is playing Chapman. They all are going to be played in Salem. All you have to worry about is holding sections of 8 together (or 7).

I went through the 2012 tourney and split the quads up. First to Saturday, second to Sunday, third to Saturday, etc.  Then I put paired up quads that were in the same group as them. I know I broke a few rules doing this. Hope is playing on Sunday. I just did it to prove you can rip the current regions apart and put them back together without much travel when you only need to worry about 8 teams traveling instead of 16.These are the groups I ended up with:

Saturday
Wooster   GL
Maryville   S
Randolph-Macon   S
Capital   GL
Bye   
Virginia Wesleyan   S
St. Mary's MD   MA
Bethany   GL

Cabrini   MA
Castleton State   NE
Hobart   E
Ohio Wesleyan   GL
Hartwick   E
Farmingdale State   A
MIT   NE
Skidmore   E

UW-River Falls   W
Edgewood   MW
Wheaton   MW
Gustavus Adolphus   W
Wash U   MW
Buena Vista   W
North Central   MW
Rose-Hulman   MW

Middlebury   NE
Morrisville State   E
Albertus Magnus   NE
St. Joe's LI   A
Bye   
Amherst   NE
NYU   E
Misericordia   MA


Sunday
Transylvania   MW
Carroll   MW
Wittenberg   GL
Birmingham-Southern   S
Hope   GL
Westminster MO   MW
UW-Stevens Point   W
Illinois Wesleyan   MW

Franklin and Marshall   MA
York PA   MA
Western Connecticut   NE
Christopher Newport   S
William Patterson   A
Becker   NE
Messiah   MA
Scranton   MA

Staten Island   A
Ithaca   E
Rhode Island College   NE
Salem State   NE
Oswego State   E
Endicott   NE
Eastern Connecticut   NE
Medaille   E

UW-Whitewater   W
Northwestern   W
C-M-S   W
St. Thomas   W
Mary Hardin Baylor   S
Trinity TX   S
Whitworth   W
McMurry   S


Is it perfect? No. There a few issues. Birmingham-Southern and C-M-S being in different quads then the rest of the outliers causes a potential issue if they make it through their quad and the Texas Quad will have to travel regardless. But otherwise there isn't a big jump in travel if you creating two distinct brackets.

As for the competitive part. I didn't look at the rankings at all when I was piecing this together. But the only real issue would end up if two schools who can't play on Sunday are ranked #1 and #2. Otherwise they could be split up real easily if you have one who can and one who can't. Or if you have two teams that can.




I am still really curious to know how many schools have a "Don't play on Sunday" rule. That number would make it easier to determine how much of a problem this could be.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: northb on May 25, 2012, 02:07:28 PM
Think about it if we reversed it the other way--if there were schools that were overtly athiest, and the NCAA said that such schools HAD to play in certain brackets, based only on the fact that they were overtly athiest.  The ACLU would be all over that one!

I think the best way is the way it is done now--accomodate the schools with reasonable requests, but set your bracket on basketball only.  Well, basketball and distance and plane fare, etc.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on July 25, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2012/July/New+format+developed+for+2013+DIII+mens+basketball+tourney).  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on July 26, 2012, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on July 25, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2012/July/New+format+developed+for+2013+DIII+mens+basketball+tourney).  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.

or any weekend?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: KnightSlappy on July 26, 2012, 08:42:12 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on July 25, 2012, 11:30:26 PM
Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2012/July/New+format+developed+for+2013+DIII+mens+basketball+tourney).  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.

I think this is the best option as long as the NCAA loosens up the travel budget a little bit. There's going to be more early-round flights if they hope to seed the tournament fairly.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on July 26, 2012, 09:54:23 AM
With only one back-to-back night on the schedule, depth may not be as important this year as it has in the past. We'll also probably see a lot of schools hosting games that may have never hosted a game before. That will be cool.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on July 26, 2012, 10:18:26 AM
QuoteQuote from: gordonmann on Yesterday at 11:30:26 pm

    Since I'm a social media recluse, this may be already be old news.  The Division III management council approved a format for next year's Division III men's basketball tournament.  It still needs the Presidents Council's final approval in August.  The proposed format is:

    First round: Saturday, March 2nd at host institutions
    Second round: Saturday, March 9th at host institutions
    Third round: Saturday, March 16th at host institutions
    Quarterfinals: Friday, March 22 at Salem
    Semifinals: Saturday, March 23 at Salem
    National championship: Sunday, April 7 (two weeks later) in Atlanta

    The selection date doesn't change.  There won't be any four team pods the first weekend of the tournament.  Eight teams will go to Salem instead of four.


or any weekend?

Correct, though you might think of the quarterfinals as an eight-team pod, I guess.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 26, 2012, 12:38:55 PM
This topic will certainly be part of a conversation with the new men's basketball committee chair Mike DeWitt coming up early next week on another Hoopsville On Demand podcast. You can also learn more on what I think is a well written article (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2012/July/New+format+developed+for+2013+DIII+mens+basketball+tourney) from the NCAA's Gary Brown.

Part of the conversation with Mike DeWitt will center around travel and early round games and what the committee hopes to do with those games and some of the concerns they have executing their plan.

If you have any particular questions you would like to possibly hear Coach DeWitt answer, please feel free to leave them here or email me at dave.mchugh@d3sports.com. I will do my best to ask them. You have until Sunday morning to submit them :).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on July 26, 2012, 01:20:50 PM
Dave, a possible question:

Has there ever been any consideration given to 'linking' conferences in adjoining regions so all games would be in-region?  There are a few conferences (esp. MIAA) for whom this would be extremely beneficial.  For example, the CCIW is fortunate to be located where in-region choices are plentiful, but many CCIW teams are located closer to many MIAA teams than ANY in-region OOC opponent (esp. for the W. Michigan MIAA teams), but are still slightly beyond the 200-mile limit.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 26, 2012, 05:49:29 PM

I know they're going to one game per week to stretch out the tournament and leave less of a layoff for the championships game, but that really messes up a team's schedule moving from (often) three games a week to one.

Ideally, if they decide to keep this format in future years, maybe they can push the end of the regular season another week, so they can make the tournament a bit more "normal."
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: NCF on July 26, 2012, 06:25:20 PM
I think this is going to be a great experience for all!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on July 26, 2012, 06:31:57 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on July 26, 2012, 05:49:29 PM

I know they're going to one game per week to stretch out the tournament and leave less of a layoff for the championships game, but that really messes up a team's schedule moving from (often) three games a week to one.

Ideally, if they decide to keep this format in future years, maybe they can push the end of the regular season another week, so they can make the tournament a bit more "normal."

I agree.  After many years of the whole tourney lasting 17 days, a 36 day tourney is gonna feel weird! :P

newcardfan, I hope so (and I'm keeping an open mind), but not having a 'real' Final Four just doesn't feel right to me.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: John Gleich on July 26, 2012, 08:20:55 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on July 26, 2012, 05:49:29 PM

I know they're going to one game per week to stretch out the tournament and leave less of a layoff for the championships game, but that really messes up a team's schedule moving from (often) three games a week to one.

Ideally, if they decide to keep this format in future years, maybe they can push the end of the regular season another week, so they can make the tournament a bit more "normal."

This will make game prep much more interesting.

With the exception of the teams who get a bye, each team needs to prepare for their Friday night game and have both potential Saturday opponents in mind.

Now, each team will have one focus... their upcoming weekend opponent, for the first three weekends and then only have to worry about double-prep at Salem.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: NCF on July 26, 2012, 09:02:05 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on July 26, 2012, 06:31:57 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on July 26, 2012, 05:49:29 PM

I know they're going to one game per week to stretch out the tournament and leave less of a layoff for the championships game, but that really messes up a team's schedule moving from (often) three games a week to one.

Ideally, if they decide to keep this format in future years, maybe they can push the end of the regular season another week, so they can make the tournament a bit more "normal."

I agree.  After many years of the whole tourney lasting 17 days, a 36 day tourney is gonna feel weird! :P

newcardfan, I hope so (and I'm keeping an open mind), but not having a 'real' Final Four just doesn't feel right to me.
since it's only a one year deal for now, if it doesn't work, they can come up with a different plan for the 100th!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 27, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
Hoops Fan, this is a one-year deal. The men's committee actually wanted a slightly different format to allow for the first two rounds to be played in the traditional format, all-be-it a week later than normal. If this were to be done more often, the regular season schedule would be adjusted accordingly and the only reason it wasn't adjusted this year was because the NCAA had delays getting all their ducks in a row in getting this proposal approved - so the '12-'13 season was already in motion scheduling wise (especially for conferences).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 29, 2012, 11:48:20 PM
Here is the interview with the new Men's Basketball Committee Chair, Mike DeWitt (found on the front page of D3hoops.com):
www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: pjunito on January 15, 2013, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 29, 2012, 11:48:20 PM
Here is the interview with the new Men's Basketball Committee Chair, Mike DeWitt (found on the front page of D3hoops.com):
www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out)

So.... Has the new format been made official?  If so, when will discussions about either changing it or keeping it begin? April, May?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on January 15, 2013, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: pjunito on January 15, 2013, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 29, 2012, 11:48:20 PM
Here is the interview with the new Men's Basketball Committee Chair, Mike DeWitt (found on the front page of D3hoops.com):
www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out)

So.... Has the new format been made official?  If so, when will discussions about either changing it or keeping it begin? April, May?

The format is official for 2013. I don't know when discussion will happen, but I would expect 2014 to return to the traditional format. Beyond that we will see, but I suspect this won't be a permanent change mostly due to the extension of the season, which pretty clearly goes contrary to D-III philosophy. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 15, 2013, 03:51:24 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on January 15, 2013, 03:28:52 PM
Quote from: pjunito on January 15, 2013, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 29, 2012, 11:48:20 PM
Here is the interview with the new Men's Basketball Committee Chair, Mike DeWitt (found on the front page of D3hoops.com):
www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out)

So.... Has the new format been made official?  If so, when will discussions about either changing it or keeping it begin? April, May?

The format is official for 2013. I don't know when discussion will happen, but I would expect 2014 to return to the traditional format. Beyond that we will see, but I suspect this won't be a permanent change mostly due to the extension of the season, which pretty clearly goes contrary to D-III philosophy. Just my opinion.
As we had in the old 48-team brackets, there will be 32 teams that get to host a playoff game!  That is a big plus for this year!

This year, you truly do not want a first round bye!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 15, 2013, 04:26:35 PM
Ralph - you are right - first round byes will stink. I believe that is one of the reasons the men's committee suggested skipping a weekend and then having two games the following weekend, the Round of 16 by itself; followed by Salem for the Elite 8... but the championships group and the president's council disagreed...

The format for this year is obviously official... for the future I have heard talk from both sides of sticking with the idea of keeping the championship with the D1 Final Four and others who are just as strong about going back to the "old ways."

The key thing here is the fact that this isn't going to happen unless the women get on board throughout the NCAA as well. There is no way D3 presidents will agree to having two different basketball seasons so the men can have the Final Four experience and the women go about the same way as always. They also aren't going to want teams playing conference games at different times.

I also know from the recent Hoopsville interview that the women do not have any plans of moving their tournament next season... so that should mean everything is back to normal next year and there is great debate about the future :).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on January 15, 2013, 04:45:34 PM
There was talk that the women may get the same opportunity in a one-shot deal in 2017, which would be the 35th anniversary of the NCAA Division I women's basketball championship. Don't know if that was anymore than a vague suggestion.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on January 15, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
Yep, the women are headed to UW-Stevens Point for the 2014 national semifinals (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/11/uwsp-to-host-womens-final-four).  But it's just a one-year arrangement for now.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 15, 2013, 08:59:22 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on January 15, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
Yep, the women are headed to UW-Stevens Point for the 2014 national semifinals (http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/11/uwsp-to-host-womens-final-four).  But it's just a one-year arrangement for now.
By making it a one-year deal, that gives another year for the NCAA to plan for a "35th year" arrangement.  If the 2017 deal comes into being, then it will be very easy for UWSP or someone else to get the 2015/2016 deal.  The contract for 2018/2019 could be let in the future.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 16, 2013, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on January 15, 2013, 04:45:34 PM
There was talk that the women may get the same opportunity in a one-shot deal in 2017, which would be the 35th anniversary of the NCAA Division I women's basketball championship. Don't know if that was anymore than a vague suggestion.
It is talk... from everything I have heard there is nothing in the works per se except for what we obviously see with the decision for the 2014 final four.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on January 19, 2013, 11:37:05 PM
We have the Pre-Championship Manual for the 2013 NCAA tournament. Here are some key points of interest...

* The first regional rankings will be released Wednesday, February 6
* The NCAA tournament selections will be announced on Monday via the Internet, like last year
* The breakdown of bids is the same as last year: 42 conference winners + 1 Pool B + 19 Pool C = 62 teams
* Two schools declared eligibility for the NAIA or NCCAA tournament instead of the NCAA: Maranatha Baptist and Nebraska Wesleyan
* There are 13 teams eligible for the 1 Pool B bid: Birmingham-Southern, Centre, Finlandia, Hendrix, Huntingdon, Maine-Presque Isle, Millsaps, Oglethorpe, Rhodes, Rust, Sewanee, St. Joseph's (Brooklyn), UC Santa Cruz
* There are seven teams that are provisional members of the NCAA and ineligible for the tournament: Berry, Covenant, Houghton, Sarah Lawrence, Southern Virginia, SUNY Canton and Valley Forge Christian
* Caltech is also ineligible for the tournament (insert punchline here). Baldwin-Wallace isn't listed in the handbook as ineligible for the NCAA tournament, but the school administration has said their teams won't participate in the postseason.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 19, 2013, 11:45:32 PM
I won't even bother with a punchline, but did they explain why Caltech is not eligible?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: KnightSlappy on January 20, 2013, 10:09:52 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on January 19, 2013, 11:37:05 PM
We have the Pre-Championship Manual for the 2013 NCAA tournament. Here are some key points of interest...

* The first regional rankings will be released Wednesday, February 6
* The NCAA tournament selections will be announced on Monday via the Internet, like last year
* The breakdown of bids is the same as last year: 42 conference winners + 1 Pool B + 19 Pool C = 62 teams
* Two schools declared eligibility for the NAIA or NCCAA tournament instead of the NCAA: Maranatha Baptist and Nebraska Wesleyan
* There are 13 teams eligible for the 1 Pool B bid: Birmingham-Southern, Centre, Finlandia, Hendrix, Huntingdon, Maine-Presque Isle, Millsaps, Oglethorpe, Rhodes, Rust, Sewanee, St. Joseph's (Brooklyn), UC Santa Cruz
* There are seven teams that are provisional members of the NCAA and ineligible for the tournament: Berry, Covenant, Houghton, Sarah Lawrence, Southern Virginia, SUNY Canton and Valley Forge Christian
* Caltech is also ineligible for the tournament (insert punchline here). Baldwin-Wallace isn't listed in the handbook as ineligible for the NCAA tournament, but the school administration has said their teams won't participate in the postseason.

Games against these opponents still count as in-region, but they're not counted for purposes of Pool B totals or for calculating the 62 tournament slots, corrrect?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on January 20, 2013, 10:30:20 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 19, 2013, 11:45:32 PM
I won't even bother with a punchline, but did they explain why Caltech is not eligible?

http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2012/07/ncaa-cites-caltech-for-institutional-control
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 20, 2013, 01:53:11 PM
To follow up, per Mike DeWitt on Thursday's Hoopsville, they will most likely still regionally rank Baldwin-Wallace despite their decision to not play in the post-season as to not punish teams that play them. If they were not to rank BW, then teams would not benefit from a regionally ranked opponent.

Now, this isn't completely official, but that is what DeWitt says he believes his committees (national and Great Lakes) will do with Baldwin-Wallace. Thus, they will actually be in a position to be put on the Pool C table, but then removed because they will not participate.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 20, 2013, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on January 20, 2013, 10:09:52 AM
Quote from: gordonmann on January 19, 2013, 11:37:05 PM
We have the Pre-Championship Manual for the 2013 NCAA tournament. Here are some key points of interest...

* The first regional rankings will be released Wednesday, February 6
* The NCAA tournament selections will be announced on Monday via the Internet, like last year
* The breakdown of bids is the same as last year: 42 conference winners + 1 Pool B + 19 Pool C = 62 teams
* Two schools declared eligibility for the NAIA or NCCAA tournament instead of the NCAA: Maranatha Baptist and Nebraska Wesleyan
* There are 13 teams eligible for the 1 Pool B bid: Birmingham-Southern, Centre, Finlandia, Hendrix, Huntingdon, Maine-Presque Isle, Millsaps, Oglethorpe, Rhodes, Rust, Sewanee, St. Joseph's (Brooklyn), UC Santa Cruz
* There are seven teams that are provisional members of the NCAA and ineligible for the tournament: Berry, Covenant, Houghton, Sarah Lawrence, Southern Virginia, SUNY Canton and Valley Forge Christian
* Caltech is also ineligible for the tournament (insert punchline here). Baldwin-Wallace isn't listed in the handbook as ineligible for the NCAA tournament, but the school administration has said their teams won't participate in the postseason.

Games against these opponents still count as in-region, but they're not counted for purposes of Pool B totals or for calculating the 62 tournament slots, corrrect?

I believe their games will count for NCAA opponents, they have just not made themselves eligibile for NCAA post-season play. So those games should count for in-region.

As for the 62 teams in the tournament, from what I can tell from the info in the handbook, the number for the tournament is based on those eligible for post-season play - so those two not being eligible does not count towards the field.

Here is the breakdown:
There are 415 institutions sponsoring men's basketball - if we stuck to that number, the 6.5 ratio would give us a complete bracket of 64 teams (63.8 rounded up).
Remove the 7 provisional institutions not eligible and you have 408 which would give you 63 (62.7 rounded up).
Now remove Maranatha Baptist and Nebraska Wesleyan and you are down to 406 which is 62 (62.4 rounded down).
Just as a side note, the handbook has 405 eligible for post season and indicates Cal Tech is not eligible per the NCAA... but does NOT indicate Baldwin-Wallace is ineligible - though this does not affect the bracket make-up.

Another thing that jumps out to be in the handbook is that they list the dates for the tournament for the next few years - through 2016. They do NOT have it set-up to take the championship game to the D1 Final Four. So I would say we are looking at this special circumstance for only this year and it wouldn't return for quite some time.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 20, 2013, 03:33:00 PM
I suspect the difference between Baldwin Wallace and Caltech is Caltech has been all the way through the enforcement process, while BW's punishment is self-inflicted.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 20, 2013, 04:15:08 PM
The NCAA has historically truncated (not rounded up ) the number of bids allocated.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on January 25, 2013, 11:44:48 AM
Dave,
  What and why is the directive of NJAC(NJ?) schools not hosting postseason competition. Bobby Hurley mentioned last nite that the Stevens men's soccer team would have hosted the regional that was assigned to York(they then lost to Scranton on a neutral field instead of having a home game).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 25, 2013, 11:53:49 AM
Because NJ legislators decided to legalize sports betting - especially individual game betting - which the NCAA has it its bylaws as being something they are against and will not allow states that have it to host NCAA tournament events. You will notice not one NCAA tournament event is ever hosted in Nevada. Delaware and either New Hampshire or Vermont have the same laws on the books for a very long time, but they do not have betting in the state. New Jersey now does and thus the NCAA has now banned the state from hosting tournament events.

Besides what Bobby Hurley talked about, the Div. II and III women's lacrosse final fours have been moved out of the state with Stevenson now hosting the events with four months of prep time.

In the women's tournament, this may not have a large an affect as you still have the pods every weekend. However, on the men's side with all individual games the first three weekends, there is a real chance of bracketing and scheduling hurdles to deal with. I could see a NJ team that should be hosting either going to a low-ranked team for the game OR maybe even another host actually getting a pod of games any of those weekends.

FYI - I also talked with Mike DeWitt and other NCAA people over the last few months about this and if you would like a link to those interviews, head here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC9FEE641A2DD2ED3. Mike's first interview is in that playlist and we discuss it as well in his interview a week ago on Hoopsville.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 25, 2013, 12:21:12 PM
Here's the NCAA boilerplate:
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2012/10/new-jersey-banned-from-hosting
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on January 25, 2013, 04:06:10 PM
Dave/Pat,
  Thanks for the responses. Rhetorical question: what happens when all states legislate sports betting-no more NCAA championships?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 25, 2013, 04:14:14 PM
Great question! That isn't likely to happen, of course, but say if a couple of bordering states decided to do so, it would cost the NCAA quite a bit to move championships in D-II and D-III out of those states in any given year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 11, 2013, 12:10:29 PM
For those of you I know what to know, there is a change in how the NCAA is calculating the SOS numbers... and it is for the better: Men's Strength of Schedule calculations changed (http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2013/02/11/mens-strength-of-schedule-calculations-changed/)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 22, 2013, 01:11:16 AM
A thought occurred to me (it occasionally happens! ;)):

With the national tourney so spread out time-wise, will we still get a full traditional bracket?

After all, if match ups were juggled after seeing who made the second and third rounds, 2-3 flights might be saved, making the bean-counters ecstatically happy!

I suspect they will still do the full brackets (many would be extremely pissed if they did not), but I could sorta understand if they didn't.

Pat, Gordon, anyone - any word?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on February 22, 2013, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 22, 2013, 01:11:16 AM
A thought occurred to me (it occasionally happens! ;)):

With the national tourney so spread out time-wise, will we still get a full traditional bracket?

After all, if match ups were juggled after seeing who made the second and third rounds, 2-3 flights might be saved, making the bean-counters ecstatically happy!

I suspect they will still do the full brackets (many would be extremely pissed if they did not), but I could sorta understand if they didn't.

Pat, Gordon, anyone - any word?

I would imagine that even though they won't be using 'pods' they will still seed or group teams together in sensible travel pods to avoid flights in the 2nd round.

The opportunity is there for a wonderful national tournament but I would seriously doubt they do it.  They certainly will not reseed after the first round.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 09:44:23 AM
One piece of the puzzle can be solved by having UMHB and Trinity TX win their tourneys and no Pool C being given to CTX or UT-Dallas.  That was either an orphan game or 2 flights.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 10:11:05 AM
Another orphan game will be the SCIAC champ and Whitworth as NWC champ.

I don't think that Whitman gets a Pool C bid.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: algernon on February 22, 2013, 10:49:08 AM
Quote from: sac on February 22, 2013, 02:02:59 AM
I would imagine that even though they won't be using 'pods' they will still seed or group teams together in sensible travel pods to avoid flights in the 2nd round.

Do you think they will be looking at "travel pods" of 8 teams, with the hope of avoiding plane flights as much as possible for the first 3 rounds on the March Saturdays of 3/2, 3/9, and 3/16?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on February 22, 2013, 01:05:20 PM
Mr. Ypsi:

Pat and Dave hopefully can answer your question. Honestly I haven't followed those kinds of issues as closely this year as in the past.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 22, 2013, 01:17:36 PM

I think we're only going to see two flights before Salem.  SCIAC champ to Whitworth and then the winner to someplace else (or maybe someone else to Whitworth).

They usually figure out a way to make those Texas teams drive somewhere in the second round - it'll just be easier with more host teams this year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 22, 2013, 02:26:04 PM
They aren't going to reseed - that flies in the face of so many things like a traditional bracket that they aren't going to do it.

However, don't be surprised if you see teams shipped to the islands for games (since a flight is going to be necessary anyway) and teams shipped out of those islands to avoid those traditional battles in early rounds. They have the ability to make these moves.

They also have the ability to maybe balance out or shift where is playing who later in the tournament since 8 teams are traveling to Salem. This could set-up some great match-ups in Salem to determine the final four and then the championship game. I think this where we could really see some great creativity. It still might mean teams close to each other or within 500 miles playing in the Sweet 16, but if it means an Amherst-Illinois Wesleyan game in the Elite 8... I will take it.

From what I have gathered, the NCAA is not punishing the committee with the flights needed to Salem because of the unique nature of the tournament. In other words, they aren't going to hamstring them in the earlier rounds per flights just because up to six or seven flights will be needed for Salem. However, there is also the knowledge that they could say no on games the committee really wants - there isn't necessarily going to be an open book on flights.

I am not a huge fan of the drawn out nature of the tournament... but I am a huge fan of what the possibilities could really be with the single-round games at individual sites the first three weekends before eight teams get to Salem to decide the championship game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 02:31:16 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 22, 2013, 01:17:36 PM

I think we're only going to see two flights before Salem.  SCIAC champ to Whitworth and then the winner to someplace else (or maybe someone else to Whitworth).

They usually figure out a way to make those Texas teams drive somewhere in the second round - it'll just be easier with more host teams this year.
I think that there will be at least three flights for the first round and for the Round of 32/16.

NWC-SCIAC Pool A's game
ASC Pool A versus Trinity as SCAC Pool A winner to Round of 32/16.
NWC/SCIAC winner to Round of 32/16.

If Colorado College wins that SCAC Pool A, then there will be three flights in the first round and as least 2 flights in the second round.

The bean-counters are hoping that Colorado College does not win the SCAC Pool A bid.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 02:32:24 PM
I agree with Dave on this one.  Having 32 playoff games on D-3 campuses in the first round is a real winner!

That is likely 16 more schools that get to host a playoff game!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
62 teams = 2 teams with byes and waiting two weeks to play, right?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 22, 2013, 03:24:54 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
62 teams = 2 teams with byes and waiting two weeks to play, right?

That's correct -- it's really 30 campuses with home games but that's the most we've had since 1997, I believe. I'm excited for all those schools that get to host games this year who otherwise wouldn't. I liked that setup better than the pods.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 03:43:02 PM
Sorry for the mathematical imprecision...    :(    :-[

I agree with Pat. Under the old system, you had about 16 teams that should have just been glad to be in the playoffs, 16 teams good enough to deserve a  home game, and 16 teams that earned a first round bye, before hosting a game.

IMHO, the best 30-odd teams in the country deserve to host a playoff game, especially because i don't see that much diffference between #16, the last team to host a 4-team tourney and #17 or even #30 who goes on the road.  I think that the quality starts to fall off this next tier at about #30 to #33.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2013, 04:47:55 PM
I like that half the tourney teams get to host, but like many of us, it really drags on!  I'm sure it's nearly impossible, but a Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday would be great. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Hugenerd on February 22, 2013, 04:54:56 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2013, 04:47:55 PM
I like that half the tourney teams get to host, but like many of us, it really drags on!  I'm sure it's nearly impossible, but a Saturday-Wednesday-Saturday would be great.

Its going to drag on either way in this format.  The championship game is being played at the D1 final four, which means the championship won't be played until April 7. Thats 5 weekends between the start of the tourney and the championship game.  If you tried compressing it more, you would just have an even longer break between the national semis and championship game (which is already two weeks):

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on February 22, 2013, 05:04:41 PM
It's definitely going to be a drag on the marriage as I have so many weekends that I have to convince my wife to let me watch basketball instead of going out somewhere.  Still trying to figure out how I can tastefully watch Round 1 next weekend while sitting in my uncle's funeral.   ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 23, 2013, 01:19:16 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 03:43:02 PM
IMHO, the best 30-odd teams in the country deserve to host a playoff game, especially because i don't see that much diffference between #16, the last team to host a 4-team tourney and #17 or even #30 who goes on the road.  I think that the quality starts to fall off this next tier at about #30 to #33.

Well the best 30 teams won't host... remember New Jersey :).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on February 23, 2013, 04:38:44 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 23, 2013, 01:19:16 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 22, 2013, 03:43:02 PM
IMHO, the best 30-odd teams in the country deserve to host a playoff game, especially because i don't see that much diffference between #16, the last team to host a 4-team tourney and #17 or even #30 who goes on the road.  I think that the quality starts to fall off this next tier at about #30 to #33.

Well the best 30 teams won't host... remember New Jersey :).

They can send a couple of those New Jersey teams north to Cortland and Plattsburgh. ;D  We'll take em in.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 11:18:06 AM
Okay, let's start the list of who is in.  It is a very simple table. Just "QUOTE"  the previous table and insert the new Pool A in the second [td ]   team name   [ /td].

(Or, if you don't have the time or don't want to fool with the table, just post the team and the conference on the message board and one of geeky-nerd types will fill it in at the next update.  Thanks.  :) )


Conference     Team
AMCC
ASC
Capital AC
Centennial
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCC
CUNYAC
E8
GNAC
--
HCAC
ICAC
LAND
LL
LEC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     
MAC-Freedom
MASCAC
MIAA
MIAC
--
NAC
NATHC
NCAC
NECC
NEAC
--
NESCAC
NEWMACWPI
NJACRamapo
NWC
OAC
--
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
SKY
--
SLIAC
SUNYAC
UAA
UMAC
USA South
--
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on February 23, 2013, 12:09:03 PM
Good work. Beat me to the punch! Guess thats what I get for working on a Saturday.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 04:45:26 PM

Conference     Team
AMCC
ASC
Capital AC
Centennial
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYAC
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCAC
ICAC
LAND
LL
LEC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAA
MIAC
--
NACHusson
NATHC
NCAC
NECCElms
NEAC
--
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
OAC
--
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
SKY
--
SLIAC
SUNYAC
UAA
UMAC
USA South
--
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 23, 2013, 04:48:08 PM
WPI has been inserted prematurely - they are only a finalist, not yet the winner (don't make me sic Hugenerd on you! ;D)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Hugenerd on February 23, 2013, 04:59:16 PM
MIT falls to Springfield, after leading for about the first 38 minutes of the game.

WPI vs. Springfield tomorrow for the NEWMAC championship.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 05:06:53 PM

In the E8, Ithaca over Stevens to give Sean Rossi on more chance at the national tournament (he's one heck of a point guard).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: KnightSlappy on February 23, 2013, 05:20:00 PM
Conference     Team
AMCC
ASC
Capital AC
Centennial
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYAC
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCAC
ICAC
LANDCatholic
LL
LEC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAA
MIAC
--
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCAC
NECCElms
NEAC
--
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
OAC
--
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
SKY
--
SLIAC
SUNYAC
UAA
UMAC
USA South
--
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 05:26:58 PM
Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
Centennial
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCAC
ICAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAA
MIAC
MWCSt. Norbert
--
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCAC
NECCElms
NEAC
--
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
OAC
--
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
SKY
--
SLIAC
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMAC
USA SouthChristopher Newport
--
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 08:01:30 PM
The home page at www.d3hoops.com says that there are 42 (Men's) Automatic bids to give.

I can only find 41 men's conferences. If someone can find whom I left out, then please add them.

(The GSAC has never had a Men's AQ.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 23, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 08:01:30 PM
The home page at www.d3hoops.com says that there are 42 (Men's) Automatic bids to give.

I can only find 41 men's conferences. If someone can find whom I left out, then please add them.

(The GSAC has never had a Men's AQ.)

New rule: Caltech gets an auto bid - those hi-tech pranksters did it again! ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Hugenerd on February 23, 2013, 08:10:34 PM
I dont know which one you missed, but should be 42, right?  42 As + 1 B + 19 Cs = 62 team field.

By the way, you have 42 listed above, you have 6 teams instead of 5 in one group:

MAC-Commonwealth     
MAC-Freedom
MASCAC
MIAA
MIAC
MWC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 08:40:42 PM
+1! Hugenerd!  Thanks!  It is always good to have a proofreader!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 08:42:49 PM
Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
Centennial
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCAC
ICAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAA
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCAC
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OAC
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKY
SLIAC
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMAC
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Hugenerd on February 23, 2013, 08:46:45 PM
No problem
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 08:47:56 PM
I added the MWC on when I saw it missing - that's why there was six in that group for a while.


Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAA
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OAC
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMAC
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 23, 2013, 09:01:56 PM
I added the MWC on when I saw it missing - that's why there was six in that group for a while.


Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
ICAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OAC
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYSUNY-Purchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMAC
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC

Veteran SLIAC observers say Spalding is a level ahead of previous SLIAC winners, and could win a game for the first time in SLIAC post-season history.

HoF coach Dennie Bridges of IWU said (in an honest, but not very PC way) that playing the SLIAC champ in the first round was a 'speed-bump'. ;))
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 09:18:17 PM

Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OAC
ODAC-
Pres AC
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMAC
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 09:25:48 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 23, 2013, 09:18:17 PM

Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OAC
ODAC-
Pres ACSt Vincent
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMACNorthwestern MN
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 09:40:51 PM

Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OACMarrietta
ODAC-
Pres ACSt Vincent
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMAC
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 09:50:29 PM
Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OACMarietta
ODAC-
Pres ACSt Vincent
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMACNorthwestern MN
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIAC
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 09:53:12 PM

Outside the CCIW (ongoing) and the two west coast games, I think that's all for the night.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 09:54:26 PM

Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIW
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWC
--
OACMarietta
ODAC-
Pres ACSt Vincent
SCAC
SCIAC
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMACNorthwestern MN
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIACWhitewater
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 23, 2013, 10:02:21 PM
Now we check Titan Q and the guys on the Pool C board to see how much damage has been done.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 23, 2013, 10:14:42 PM
Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASC
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIWNorth Central
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIAC
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIAC
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEAC
NESCAC
NEWMAC
NJACRamapo
NWCWhitworth
--
OACMarietta
ODAC-
Pres ACSt Vincent
SCAC
SCIACRedlands
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMACNorthwestern MN
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIACWhitewater
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 12:47:24 AM
If we get a Trinity at UMHB pairing and a Redlands at Whitworth pairing, then I would like to see both of those winnres (?UMHB and Whitworth) sent someplace unusual, for example to the East Region.

That would make for an interesting contrast in styles of play.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njachoopsfan on February 24, 2013, 12:56:37 AM
What are the chances that the selection committee allows Ramapo to host at a neutral site which I believe is Nyack College
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njachoopsfan on February 24, 2013, 01:00:27 AM
what is the web address for the selection show tomorrow
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 24, 2013, 01:09:08 AM
Selection show is on Monday and we'll have a page for it right here on D3hoops.com.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on February 24, 2013, 01:12:05 AM
Quote from: njachoopsfan on February 24, 2013, 01:00:27 AM
what is the web address for the selection show tomorrow

NCAA.com, but D3 hoops will link it on the home page as well.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 24, 2013, 10:59:24 AM
Quote from: njachoopsfan on February 24, 2013, 12:56:37 AM
What are the chances that the selection committee allows Ramapo to host at a neutral site which I believe is Nyack College

Doubt it... they haven't made any decision like this for any other sport so far... and it adds another factor of a facility actually not in control of that institution so too many "what ifs" that no one has dealt with. I could see maybe one place hosting two games with Ramapo being involved... but that is about the only "odd" thing we might see in the first weekend.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 24, 2013, 11:32:45 AM
So I will retract my statement a bit... turns out the NCAA has agreed they would be interested in paying some of the hosts costs to host at a neutral site... and Stevens has gone down this road as well... so clearly there is a chance of Nyack College hosting a game for Ramapo... we shall see if the NCAA thinks it is worthy of doing. Though, now I suspect it will happen since I was against in the first place LOL.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on February 24, 2013, 02:15:23 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 24, 2013, 01:09:08 AM
Selection show is on Monday and we'll have a page for it right here on D3hoops.com.

2 things: 1) Is there going to be another projected bracket like there was last year.
2) Any chance the NCAA is going to have the show archived??  I don't think I'll be home tomorrow until about 1:45 or 2 Eastern, so I was hoping I'd get to watch the selections since I'll miss the men's ones live.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 24, 2013, 02:20:21 PM
Two thoughts... yes projections will come out on D3hoops later... and secondly, you don't have to watch the archive if you just go to D3hoops.com where we will have the bracket - saves you time :).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: pjunito on February 24, 2013, 03:28:39 PM
Watching the show is fun; the brackets give you all the information one would need. However, the show gives you a sense of excitement!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njf1003 on February 24, 2013, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: pjunito on February 24, 2013, 03:28:39 PM
Watching the show is fun; the brackets give you all the information one would need. However, the show gives you a sense of excitement!
Also you have to watch the show to see how badly they can butcher the pronunciations of various schools....
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on February 24, 2013, 03:32:19 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 24, 2013, 02:20:21 PM
Two thoughts... yes projections will come out on D3hoops later... and secondly, you don't have to watch the archive if you just go to D3hoops.com where we will have the bracket - saves you time :).

That's true, but watching the show is always fun too.............even if its on a 3 hour tape delay and you already know the field
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 24, 2013, 04:42:49 PM
Just leave yourself the time to tune in to Hoopsville starting at 3 PM EST ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: KnightSlappy on February 24, 2013, 05:36:44 PM
Pool A should be all set:

Conference     Team
AMCCPenn State - Behrend
ASCConcordia-Texas
Capital ACSt. Mary's (MD)
CentennialDickinson
CSACCabrini
--
CCIWNorth Central
CCCCurry
CUNYACStaten Island
E8Ithaca
GNACAlbertus Magnus
--
HCACRose-Hulman
IIACDubuque
LANDCatholic
LLHobart
LECRIC
--
MAC-Commonwealth     Alvernia
MAC-FreedomDelaware Valley
MASCACFitchburg State
MIAACalvin
MIACSt Thomas
--
MWCSt. Norbert
NACHusson
NATHCAurora
NCACOhio Wesleyan
NECCElms
--
NEACMorrisville State
NESCACAmherst
NEWMACWPI
NJACRamapo
NWCWhitworth
--
OACMarietta
ODACRandolph-Macon
Pres ACSt Vincent
SCACTrinity
SCIACRedlands
--
SKYPurchase
SLIACSpalding
SUNYACCortland State
UAAWashU
UMACNorthwestern MN
--
USA SouthChristopher Newport
WIACWhitewater

Pool B is going to be Centre
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 09:51:16 PM
Just a thought on how to let St Thomas host a round of 32/16.

UMAC at St Thomas
UMHB versus bye.          flight to St Thomas

Redlands at Whitworth  (one flight and St Thomas)
Trinity at CTX  (bus)  flight to St Thomas
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on February 24, 2013, 10:07:40 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 09:51:16 PM
Just a thought on how to let St Thomas host a round of 32/16.

UMAC at St Thomas
UMHB versus bye.          flight to St Thomas

Redlands at Whitworth  (one flight and St Thomas)
Trinity at CTX  (bus)  flight to St Thomas
who is this unknown UMAC team??  Is their championship game tomorrow morning?  Why give the #1 Tommies the most difficult first round matchup?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 11:18:29 PM
Quote from: AO on February 24, 2013, 10:07:40 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 09:51:16 PM
Just a thought on how to let St Thomas host a round of 32/16.

UMAC at St Thomas
UMHB versus bye.          flight to St Thomas

Redlands at Whitworth  (one flight and St Thomas)
Trinity at CTX  (bus)  flight to St Thomas
who is this unknown UMAC team??  Is their championship game tomorrow morning?  Why give the #1 Tommies the most difficult first round matchup?
Sorry about that AO.  Northwestern MN is the UMAC winner.  Third year in a row...right?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 11:57:03 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 11:18:29 PM
Quote from: AO on February 24, 2013, 10:07:40 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 09:51:16 PM
Just a thought on how to let St Thomas host a round of 32/16.

UMAC at St Thomas
UMHB versus bye.          flight to St Thomas

Redlands at Whitworth  (one flight and St Thomas)
Trinity at CTX  (bus)  flight to St Thomas
who is this unknown UMAC team??  Is their championship game tomorrow morning?  Why give the #1 Tommies the most difficult first round matchup?
Sorry about that AO.  Northwestern MN is the UMAC winner.  Third year in a row...right?
Better yet,  switch the bracket and have Texas teams play in the first 2 weekends.

Emory can only bus to Centre.  If they beat Centre, then every other game is flight.  Pair them with Whitworth in the second weekend and you have a 50/50 chance of being "right".  Whitworth will have likely had 2 home games.

... Just trying to break up the log jam at the top of the West Region...  and not having much luck, as Titan Q and Dave lamented on Hoopsville.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on February 25, 2013, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 11:57:03 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 11:18:29 PM
Quote from: AO on February 24, 2013, 10:07:40 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2013, 09:51:16 PM
Just a thought on how to let St Thomas host a round of 32/16.

UMAC at St Thomas
UMHB versus bye.          flight to St Thomas

Redlands at Whitworth  (one flight and St Thomas)
Trinity at CTX  (bus)  flight to St Thomas
who is this unknown UMAC team??  Is their championship game tomorrow morning?  Why give the #1 Tommies the most difficult first round matchup?
Sorry about that AO.  Northwestern MN is the UMAC winner.  Third year in a row...right?
Better yet,  switch the bracket and have Texas teams play in the first 2 weekends.

Emory can only bus to Centre.  If they beat Centre, then every other game is flight.  Pair them with Whitworth in the second weekend and you have a 50/50 chance of being "right".  Whitworth will have likely had 2 home games.

... Just trying to break up the log jam at the top of the West Region...  and not having much luck, as Titan Q and Dave lamented on Hoopsville.
yes, 3rd year in a row.  Hopefully not the 3rd year in a row sent to the champ in the first round.  This year Northwestern should be about a 12 seed (Massey has about 14 AQs ranked lower and none of them have a win over an opponent like Wheaton).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 25, 2013, 12:40:55 PM
The bracket: http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2013/bracket-released
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 25, 2013, 12:49:07 PM
Gaffe alert from the NCAA.com broadcast.

Centre was Pool B. The SAA did not have the AQ this year!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 25, 2013, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 25, 2013, 12:49:07 PM
Gaffe alert from the NCAA.com broadcast.

Centre was Pool B. The SAA did not have the AQ this year!


Yeah, that was funny.  I wonder if was Freudian - the SAA winner was defacto Pool B champ anyway.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 25, 2013, 12:55:45 PM
Shades of Jerod...

"That lower right corner bracket"  from the old Hoopsville intro...

Is Cortland State the weakest link in that lower right projected field of 32?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on February 25, 2013, 01:07:10 PM
Who does host 2nd round games?   Top team in the bracket?  or to be determined?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on February 25, 2013, 01:09:07 PM
TBD after the first round is played. Same goes for round 3.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SevenTen on February 25, 2013, 01:09:56 PM
Quote from: hopefan on February 25, 2013, 01:07:10 PM
Who does host 2nd round games?   Top team in the bracket?  or to be determined?

Officially it hasn't been determined... but looking at the bracket it seems maybe there's a trend towards the top team in the bracket being the "higher rated" team.  Not sure if that plays out throughout since I don't know all the teams from various regions.  Just a quick look assumption.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SevenTen on February 25, 2013, 01:11:56 PM
Wow.  WashU, Whitewater, North Central, and Illinois Wesleyan all in the same 8 team grouping... yeesh.  Only the #2, #3, #6 and #12 teams in the nation per Massey's ratings:  http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2013&sub=11620

Basically what I was concerned about.  Not having the ability to create "central hosting sites" means compressing the tournament into 8 little geographic tournaments which doesn't spread the top teams across the nation all that well.

Who the heck hosts the second and third round games of that group if the first round is chalk?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on February 25, 2013, 01:42:18 PM
Most brackets built by civilized nations have top seeds planted in the corners.  In this case: RHIT, Amherst, Rhode Island, and Cortland State (the latter two assumed as the highest seeds because they are hosting those bottom most pairings).  Sometimes in 64 entry brackets, the top seeds on the bottom half sit at the top of the bottom half, in this case UMHB and Washington U.  You might be able to assume that as long as those teams keep winning, they'll keep hosting.  But then again, you really never know what kind of polish the NCAA is going to give to a D-III event (it has unfortunately seemed to be less and less recently). 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on February 25, 2013, 01:55:05 PM
Quote from: SevenTen on February 25, 2013, 01:11:56 PM
Wow.  WashU, Whitewater, North Central, and Illinois Wesleyan all in the same 8 team grouping... yeesh.  Only the #2, #3, #6 and #12 teams in the nation per Massey's ratings:  http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2013&sub=11620

Basically what I was concerned about.  Not having the ability to create "central hosting sites" means compressing the tournament into 8 little geographic tournaments which doesn't spread the top teams across the nation all that well.

Who the heck hosts the second and third round games of that group if the first round is chalk?

This really isn't different from past years.  There just isn't a good way to separate teams in this area of the country because there are always so many.  The options to separate the WIAC/CCIW/UAA teams like the  NESCAC/ODAC teams just isn't there in the midwest.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 25, 2013, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: sac on February 25, 2013, 01:55:05 PM
Quote from: SevenTen on February 25, 2013, 01:11:56 PM
Wow.  WashU, Whitewater, North Central, and Illinois Wesleyan all in the same 8 team grouping... yeesh.  Only the #2, #3, #6 and #12 teams in the nation per Massey's ratings:  http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2013&sub=11620

Basically what I was concerned about.  Not having the ability to create "central hosting sites" means compressing the tournament into 8 little geographic tournaments which doesn't spread the top teams across the nation all that well.

Who the heck hosts the second and third round games of that group if the first round is chalk?

This really isn't different from past years.  There just isn't a good way to separate teams in this area of the country because there are always so many.  The options to separate the WIAC/CCIW/UAA teams like the  NESCAC/ODAC teams just isn't there in the midwest.

Yeah, pretty much every year the (geographical) upper midwest produces a 'bracket of death'.

With the change coming next year of ALL d3 games counting as regional (as long as at least 70 are current in-region), does anyone know if that will change the in-region RRO calculation.  Sac was bemoaning the near impossibility of Hope getting many RROs due to their dearth most years in the MIAA; it would certainly help the situation if they could pick up RROs in Chicagoland (this year they would already add Wheaton, NCC, and IWU (and Aurora?)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: (509)Rat on February 25, 2013, 02:08:23 PM
I keep checking the bracket to make sure it isn't some cruel joke. The one where they give Whitworth the most favorable draw I've ever seen and then release the "real" bracket that sends them to UST in the second round...

They've already beaten Redlands and UMHB. Hope they get out of the first round so we can see them against a team from a very strong (and far away) conference.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: KnightSlappy on February 25, 2013, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: SevenTen on February 25, 2013, 01:11:56 PM
Wow.  WashU, Whitewater, North Central, and Illinois Wesleyan all in the same 8 team grouping... yeesh.  Only the #2, #3, #6 and #12 teams in the nation per Massey's ratings:  http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&yr=2013&sub=11620

Basically what I was concerned about.  Not having the ability to create "central hosting sites" means compressing the tournament into 8 little geographic tournaments which doesn't spread the top teams across the nation all that well.

Who the heck hosts the second and third round games of that group if the first round is chalk?

And then there's the group with St. Thomas, UW-Stevens Point, Calvin, and Wheaton. They're Massey's #1, #4, #8, and #10. Also appearing in that group are Rose-Hulman (Massey #23) and St. Norbert (Massey #28).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on February 25, 2013, 02:15:38 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on February 25, 2013, 02:08:23 PM
I keep checking the bracket to make sure it isn't some cruel joke. The one where they give Whitworth the most favorable draw I've ever seen and then release the "real" bracket that sends them to UST in the second round...

They've already beaten Redlands and UMHB. Hope they get out of the first round so we can see them against a team from a very strong (and far away) conference.

It's ur pick on the fantasy MB.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njachoopsfan on February 26, 2013, 12:43:12 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the 2011 NCAA Division III Men's Basketball Championship Handbook.  I need to check the order the introductions, anthem etc.  for my game on Saturday.   I was able to google it in 2011, but can't find it this year
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 26, 2013, 12:51:29 PM
I assume you meant 2013? And your school should have access to that information. Usually it is a countdown on the clock to five minutes left... national anthem... then starting lineups (and I have been told they have gone away from alternating starting lineups to more traditional ones) all to be done for tip off which is to happen at the scheduled time.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on February 26, 2013, 12:53:54 PM
Quote from: njachoopsfan on February 26, 2013, 12:43:12 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the 2011 NCAA Division III Men's Basketball Championship Handbook.  I need to check the order the introductions, anthem etc.  for my game on Saturday.   I was able to google it in 2011, but can't find it this year

http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2013/mens-basketball-championships-handbook
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 26, 2013, 12:56:45 PM
Yeah... it isn't in there, Bob :(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on February 26, 2013, 12:59:39 PM
That information is part of the "Host Operations Manual" which is on the NCAA.org site but it's behind the password wall. Your school and/or your SID should have it.

I have an old document. For a single game it looks like this:

Single Game Schedule
6 p.m. Floor available for team warm-up—55-minute countdown begins.
6:40 p.m. Officials meet with team captains.
6:55 p.m. Timer sounds buzzer–teams clear floor.
Presentation of colors and national anthem.
Player introductions/crowd-control statement.
7 p.m. Tip-off.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njachoopsfan on February 26, 2013, 01:10:08 PM
The one on D3Hoops is only the pre-championship manual.   I have the 2011 manual and just wanted to make sure there were no format changes and there don't appear to be any.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 26, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
The only format change I have learned, but can't determine as of yet because I haven't looked it up, is that instead of alternating the starting line-ups between the teams for each "position," you can now announce one team completely followed by the other (home).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on February 26, 2013, 01:17:02 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 26, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
The only format change I have learned, but can't determine as of yet because I haven't looked it up, is that instead of alternating the starting line-ups between the teams for each "position," you can now announce one team completely followed by the other (home).
Can you turn off the lights and play ayo technology (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxUIFxDN35g)?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njachoopsfan on February 26, 2013, 01:19:23 PM
Are you sure about that one?  I find it hard to believe that the NCAA would actually stray away from that.  Maybe someone out there has the manual they can attach a link to
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on February 26, 2013, 02:18:03 PM
Quote from: njachoopsfan on February 26, 2013, 01:19:23 PM
Are you sure about that one?  I find it hard to believe that the NCAA would actually stray away from that.  Maybe someone out there has the manual they can attach a link to

They have strayed away from alternating introductions. The D-I Final Four last year didn't alternate introductions, so that CBS could do their little video montages to go with it. Since they stopped doing it at D-I, they've given the other levels more leeway.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 26, 2013, 02:49:38 PM
Quote from: njachoopsfan on February 26, 2013, 01:19:23 PM
Are you sure about that one?  I find it hard to believe that the NCAA would actually stray away from that.  Maybe someone out there has the manual they can attach a link to

That is what I have learned... I am following up.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on February 26, 2013, 04:15:02 PM
I believe it's still in the Host Manual to do alternating introductions, but I know if you ask nicely and want to do one team at a time, the NCAA rep on site might approve it. Providing, of course, you treat both teams equally.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 02:08:25 PM

Tournament is underway.  R-MC and Stevens playing at Lehman College.  That is a small, compact gym.  Great coverage from Emprie8.tv, though.  Quality presentation.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 02:30:07 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2013, 02:08:25 PM

Tournament is underway.  R-MC and Stevens playing at Lehman College.  That is a small, compact gym.  Great coverage from Emprie8.tv, though.  Quality presentation.

However, it's a pretty terrible game.  Really sloppy.  I don't see either of these teams going far in the tournament.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 02, 2013, 03:15:28 PM
What the hell is RMC doing??  They can't hit a perimeter shot at all, yet they keep shooting them.  What was once a 16 point RMC lead; 42-26, is now tied at 46 due to a 20-4 Stevens run.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 03:27:02 PM
Quote from: 7express on March 02, 2013, 03:15:28 PM
What the hell is RMC doing??  They can't hit a perimeter shot at all, yet they keep shooting them.  What was once a 16 point RMC lead; 42-26, is now tied at 46 due to a 20-4 Stevens run.

It's either poor coaching or intentionally defiant execution.  Either way it's bad basketball.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 02, 2013, 03:30:49 PM
Turned into a good game but poorly played basketball.  Tied at 56 3:49 left.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 03:50:49 PM

Macon is the first winner of this year's tournament, knocking out Stevens by hitting FTs down the stretch.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2013, 03:59:36 PM
I'm with 7. It was an exciting game, but I don't think it was a well-played one. Lots of guys in the second half got to the rim (bad defense) but didn't finish (bad offense). And there were a lot of wide-open midrange shots (bad defense) that weren't knocked down (bad offense).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 02, 2013, 04:03:36 PM
St. Vincent is making its first NCAA appearance, any other schools making their first appearance?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2013, 04:11:34 PM
This year's virgins:

Concordia (TX)
Fitchburg State
Randolph
St. Vincent
Spalding
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 05:05:48 PM

Our last two teams into the tourney are down by 17 and 13 at the half of their first games.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 02, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2013, 05:05:48 PM

Our last two teams into the tourney are down by 17 and 13 at the half of their first games.

On the football site we've kept a running tally of the playoff performance of the teams the NCAA selects over our objections. I believe there's only been one team that's ever done anything significant in the postseason in a year where we projected them out but the NCAA took them anyway. (Ithaca, 2000 or 2001.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 05:23:17 PM

Whitewater gave up most of a huge halftime lead to Dubuque - only up 7 with less than 10 minutes to go.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 05:25:19 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2013, 05:23:17 PM

Whitewater gave up most of a huge halftime lead to Dubuque - only up 7 with less than 10 minutes to go.

And Whitewater hits back to back threes to go back up 13.  This may not be an upset watch after all.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 05:28:10 PM

Pretty impressed with WW 6'7" freshman Darnell Harris.  He's got a lot of potential.  Big, athletic, just sunk two threes in a row.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 05:31:59 PM

Cortland, Emory, CNU, and Whitewater all up comfortably now late in the second half.

I guess Stevens was technically an upset, but at least no outright surprises so far.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 02, 2013, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2013, 05:28:10 PM

Pretty impressed with WW 6'7" freshman Darnell Harris.  He's got a lot of potential.  Big, athletic, just sunk two threes in a row.

AH, my fifth round draft pick! ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Spence on March 02, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
Incredible atmosphere at Dickinson College for the Dickinson/Marietta game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 02, 2013, 08:52:57 PM
CABRINI WINS 80-78 over Hampden-Sydney!!!  :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: realist on March 02, 2013, 09:35:09 PM
Calvin did what they had to do to start showing the GL comm. what they are capable of doing.  72 points against the toughest defense in D3. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2013, 09:38:31 PM
Quote from: realist on March 02, 2013, 09:35:09 PM
Calvin did what they had to do to start showing the GL comm. what they are capable of doing.  72 points against the toughest defense in D3.

They got my attention.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 02, 2013, 09:56:45 PM
Final Four teams from 2012 go 3-1. With MIT the lone team to lose.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 02, 2013, 10:03:36 PM
So far in the first round,

Nice games by Curry, Wesley, Hobart, and Spalding.

Fitchburg is tied with Rochester at the half.

Bracket-busted on my pick sheet -- Randolph, Hampden-Sydney, Springfield and Ramapo (Morrisville State from the NEAC?  You gotta be kiddin'.)

I drank the ODAC Kool-aid!

Concordia-Texas beat Trinity in its debut!  No surprise to me.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 02, 2013, 10:36:01 PM
Ralph,

Rochester won 91-86.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: (509)Rat on March 02, 2013, 11:15:08 PM
Whitworth down 57-50. Redlands over 50% from 3 (9-17). Perfect storm up in Spokane. Unless Redlands goes cold, they look like they'll upset the Pirates
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: (509)Rat on March 02, 2013, 11:47:35 PM
Redlands goes cold, thankfully. Whitworth's Farnsworth a complete non-factor, but Gebbers and McCargar win the battle of the backcourts, score 21 each.

Emory used a ton of on ball pressure in the halfcourt to cruise in round one. Should be another tight one in Spokane next week.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 03, 2013, 12:17:03 AM

Just noticed that Randolph-Macon gets to drive back to Virginia tonight, then, next week, make the 495 mile drive to Worcester for the second round.  Ouch.

Williams vs Catholic.  I sure hope it's not in DC.  I would hate to have it so close and not be able to go.  Send it to MA!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Matt Letourneau on March 03, 2013, 01:38:39 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2013, 12:17:03 AM

Just noticed that Randolph-Macon gets to drive back to Virginia tonight, then, next week, make the 495 mile drive to Worcester for the second round.  Ouch.

Williams vs Catholic.  I sure hope it's not in DC.  I would hate to have it so close and not be able to go.  Send it to MA!

No...don't do that!  Send it to DC   :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 03, 2013, 04:29:05 AM
The SUNYAC and the NESCAC get to play each other twice next Saturday. Plattsburgh State a winner on Saturday over Husson will travel to #2 Amherst to take on the Lord Jeffs.

#23 Cortland State will face off against #7 Middlebury at a site TBD. I'm thinking the NCAA will even things out and send Middlebury over to Cortland. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ethelred the Unready on March 03, 2013, 06:08:54 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2013, 04:11:34 PM
This year's virgins:

Concordia (TX)
Fitchburg State
Randolph
St. Vincent
Spalding

SUNY Morrisville has been before?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 03, 2013, 08:43:51 AM
Quote from: Ethelred the Unready on March 03, 2013, 06:08:54 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2013, 04:11:34 PM
This year's virgins:

Concordia (TX)
Fitchburg State
Randolph
St. Vincent
Spalding

SUNY Morrisville has been before?

Yes, last year:
http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Morrisville_State/men/2011-12/index
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 03, 2013, 09:33:40 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2013, 12:17:03 AM

Just noticed that Randolph-Macon gets to drive back to Virginia tonight, then, next week, make the 495 mile drive to Worcester for the second round.  Ouch.

Williams vs Catholic.  I sure hope it's not in DC.  I would hate to have it so close and not be able to go.  Send it to MA!

Talking to the former wolfpac and we noticed a long trip too. Cabrini gets to travel to and from Hampden Sydney which is 313 miles to probably to Ohio Wesleyan(#2 regional in Great Lakes) which is 476 miles away. If they are able to win that game (another obvious upset ;D) they get the opportunity to either travel to Dickinson which is only 108 miles or Wooster (#1 GL) at a 425 mile clip.  :o

For me of course it would be a lot more miles to travel.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: David Collinge on March 03, 2013, 10:22:05 AM
What happens if Calvin or Wheaton advances to the championship game, scheduled on a Sunday?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 03, 2013, 10:30:09 AM
Quote from: David Collinge on March 03, 2013, 10:22:05 AM
What happens if Calvin or Wheaton advances to the championship game, scheduled on a Sunday?

It would be played on Monday.  With this year's 2 week gap between Salem and Atlanta, there would be plenty of time for arrangements.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 03, 2013, 10:34:50 AM
Frankly with the D-I championship game on Monday night, a possible Monday afternoon D-III title game might draw (slightly) better attendance. There's a lot more casual fans hanging around looking for something to do on Monday. On Sunday most fans are nursing hangovers and playing golf. (Not that I would have first hand experience with such things.  ;) )

That's assuming that any D-I fans will attend the D-III game in any event.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 03, 2013, 12:22:56 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 03, 2013, 12:17:03 AM

Just noticed that Randolph-Macon gets to drive back to Virginia tonight, then, next week, make the 495 mile drive to Worcester for the second round.  Ouch.

Williams vs Catholic.  I sure hope it's not in DC.  I would hate to have it so close and not be able to go.  Send it to MA!


Are home teams posted somewhere? They make an announcement?

When are the host sights announced?

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 12:42:02 PM
Per Middlebury and Cortland State... Cortland finished #2 in the regional rankings... Middlebury was #5 - outside of breaking down the SOS numbers, Cortland would get the nod. It is also speculated that because Middlebury is hosting the skiing championships, the school did not put in to host the second weekend.

Per the Sunday game... it would be moved to 12:00 PM Sunday at Phillips Arena. Also, keep in mind the DII and DIII championship games are free to everyone, including as part of the package for those fans who purchased D1 Final Four tickets... so I think the draw will be pretty good on a dead Sunday or a Monday which game doesn't start until probably 9 PM.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 01:33:17 PM
Hosts this coming weekend: UW-Stevens Point, St. Thomas, Virginia Wesleyan, Williams, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Whitworth, Alvernia, Rhode Island, Amherst, WPI, Wooster, Ohio Wesleyan, Wash, North Central, Rochester, Cortland State.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on March 03, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
How bad is the pairing of North Central vs UW-Whitewater in round 2?  For perspective, I tried to project which teams would be the true top 8 seeds in the tournament, based on criteria but not taking geography into account.  I came up with the following...


#1  Amherst (NE): 25-2 (.926)/.585/9-1
#2  St. Thomas (W): 26-1 (.963)/.548)/7-1
#3  WPI (NE): 25-2 (.926)/.568/5-2
#4  North Central (MW): 22-3 (.880)/.551/6-2
#5  Williams (NE): 21-4 (.840)/.577/5-4
#6  UW-Whitewater (W): 22-4 (.846)/.588/5-3
#7  Rochester (E): 20-4 (.833)/.575/7-3
#8  Alvernia (MA): 23-4 (.852)/.552/5-2
-----
#9 UW-Stevens Point (W): 21-5 (.808)/.586/7-2


I think it's pretty fair to say that both NCC and UWW are in the top 8 of the 2013 tournament field, based strictly on the criteria.  In a perfect world they would not meet until round 4 at the earliest.

This is by far the most unfair and unfortunate round 2 matchup as I see it.  It seems like we see these types of early round pairings in the West and Midwest all too often, but we rarely do on the east coast.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: jaybird44 on March 03, 2013, 02:42:13 PM
On the women's side yesterday:  Hope vs. Ohio Northern, the #2 and #3 ranked teams in the country, in the 2nd round of the tournament.

I understand the geographic and financial limitations under which the NCAA operates, but there has to be a better way to separate those top 5 or top 10 teams so it doesn't look like such a haphazard mockery of a traditional championship tournament.  If that means paying for 2-3 extra flights, I would believe that would be money well spent to try and avoid a situation where clusters of top-ranked teams are forced into basketball cannibalism...and perhaps a final 8 or final 4 bereft of top-shelf teams that would make those rounds potentially more competitive.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 03, 2013, 02:55:42 PM
I don't think the women's committee put together the best bracket it could have, even given the NCAA limitations.

One simple, quick and free change that could have been made with competitive balance in mind would have been to swap the position of the ONU/Hanover game and the Thomas More/Carthage game in the bracket.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 02:57:46 PM
I hate to harp on this... but there are only a few tournaments in the NCAA that are "traditional." But I will say the women did a horrible job with match-ups and looking ahead at games (which they admit they don't forecast possibly scenarios). On the men's side it isn't great, but I know the men's committee worked hard to try and solve the issue. Not a lot of choices in the Midwest/West with so many good teams getting in a not a lot of upsets that placed more teams within 500 miles so you can creatively bus teams around. As we have been saying on the CCIW board... Pat and I did our mock bracket and spent well over an hour trying to get creative with the Midwest/West and still had NCC vs. Wash U as a potential second round game and Transylvania vs. Wheaton as a first round game along with other not so great match-ups early on.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on March 03, 2013, 03:15:56 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 02:57:46 PM
I hate to harp on this... but there are only a few tournaments in the NCAA that are "traditional." But I will say the women did a horrible job with match-ups and looking ahead at games (which they admit they don't forecast possibly scenarios). On the men's side it isn't great, but I know the men's committee worked hard to try and solve the issue. Not a lot of choices in the Midwest/West with so many good teams getting in a not a lot of upsets that placed more teams within 500 miles so you can creatively bus teams around. As we have been saying on the CCIW board... Pat and I did our mock bracket and spent well over an hour trying to get creative with the Midwest/West and still had NCC vs. Wash U as a potential second round game and Transylvania vs. Wheaton as a first round game along with other not so great match-ups early on.

What would have been wrong about Wheaton/Transylvania in round 1?  Just curious.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 03:17:40 PM
Nothing wrong... just not a match-up I would have loved... I would rather give Wheaton a slightly less tough an opponents - as with IWU.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 03, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 03:17:40 PM
Nothing wrong... just not a match-up I would have loved... I would rather give Wheaton a slightly less tough an opponents - as with IWU.

Um, IWU played Transy in round one, and IWU was ranked higher in the region than Wheaton. ???
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
Thus my comment "I would rather give Wheaton a slightly less tough an opponents - as with IWU."
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 03, 2013, 04:27:47 PM
Quote from: jaybird44 on March 03, 2013, 02:42:13 PM
On the women's side yesterday:  Hope vs. Ohio Northern, the #2 and #3 ranked teams in the country, in the 2nd round of the tournament.

I understand the geographic and financial limitations under which the NCAA operates, but there has to be a better way to separate those top 5 or top 10 teams so it doesn't look like such a haphazard mockery of a traditional championship tournament.  If that means paying for 2-3 extra flights, I would believe that would be money well spent to try and avoid a situation where clusters of top-ranked teams are forced into basketball cannibalism...and perhaps a final 8 or final 4 bereft of top-shelf teams that would make those rounds potentially more competitive.

The GL was unique on the women's side this year because they had 5 of the top 10 in the country in their region probably.

The committee moved DePauw into a bracket that avoids all of those schools until the final, and moved  Calvin (probably #4 or #5 in the final poll) out to the West.

It has always been a problem in the GL/MW/W of avoiding 2nd round matchups of highly ranked teams.  They at least attempted some moves which might make sense based on the NCAA's criteria, but not to the d3hoops poll.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 04:54:58 PM
sac - they could have swapped an entire 4-team pod on the women's side from the Mid-Atlantic/Atlantic with an entire 4-team pod from the Northeast/East and balanced the upper left bracket without changing one thing with mileage. As for the lower left... there they could have easily swapped the Ohio Northern pod with Thomas More or Simpson ones and had better balance.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 06:07:41 PM
RMC to WPI...about 7---8 miles short of flying.  Thoughts of appealing to the NCAA if there are "detours" from Ashland to WPI (there are) which would bring the distance over.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 06:13:38 PM
To fly RMC? Don't think so... based on the official mileage... not if there are detours :). By the way... the official mileage from campus to campus is 496.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 03, 2013, 06:18:30 PM
Doesn't matter what the actual driving mileage is on the road, only what the NCAA mileage chart shows.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 06:19:52 PM
So in the "best interests of the student/athlete" here is a hypothetical:  RMC beats WPI and Amhurst wins...again another bus trip??
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
Best interests is a 500 mile limit... there is also a financial responsibility to consider.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: iwumichigander on March 03, 2013, 07:05:55 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
Best interests is a 500 mile limit... there is also a financial responsibility to consider.
And 30 teams that lost this weekend will tell you that long bus trip better than 'one and done'
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: monsoon on March 03, 2013, 07:14:28 PM
The lack of the 4-team-pod this year certainly complicated the geography options of the bracket.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
Did the NCAA consider the "economics" of their 75th anniversary anomoly...and not not the amount of time the student athlete could miss class??  Perhaps a "special dispensation" ($$) should be considered this year on the men's side...but then again the NCAA doesn't seem to be able to forsee and adapt (Abeit temporary) solutions to fit the "best interset of the student athlete".
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 03, 2013, 08:16:58 PM
Quote from: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
Did the NCAA consider the "economics" of their 75th anniversary anomoly...and not not the amount of time the student athlete could miss class??  Perhaps a "special dispensation" ($$) should be considered this year on the men's side...but then again the NCAA doesn't seem to be able to forsee and adapt (Abeit temporary) solutions to fit the "best interest of the student athlete".
The NCAA is paying for the post-season.  The alternative would be to move to the NAIA where each institution raises its own money.

The NAIA Championship in Division I Men's basketball is in Kansas City, MO.  ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 03, 2013, 08:23:35 PM
Quote from: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
Did the NCAA consider the "economics" of their 75th anniversary anomoly...and not not the amount of time the student athlete could miss class??  Perhaps a "special dispensation" ($$) should be considered this year on the men's side...but then again the NCAA doesn't seem to be able to forsee and adapt (Abeit temporary) solutions to fit the "best interset of the student athlete".

Are you saying Macon is leaving earlier for a Saturday game than it would for the Friday games we normally have in this bracket? :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 08:28:07 PM
Not saying Macon is leaving earlier...they only play one game per weekend...and potentially could leave "earlier" 3 weeks in a row...then potentially a 4th and then???
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 03, 2013, 09:47:00 PM
I understand the economics, but wish the 500-mile rule was more like 400 (which would no doubt mean several more flights per year).  A 496 mile bus ride is basically an all day affair!  (And I realize that they are not riding yellow school buses - still, it is brutal.  I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to calculate home-court advantage for someone being bussed that far vs. flying?)

EDIT: On the other hand, the bean counters would then make the upper midwest area matchups even more brutal than they already are - forget I said anything! :P)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 03, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
It used to be 400. But then again, we'd just be getting crappier brackets.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 03, 2013, 09:51:29 PM
I was going to say Ypsi... if you want a shorter radius... we are going to get into more geographic and regional games and less creativity because I doubt the NCAA would reduce the bus mileage and then ADD flights.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 03, 2013, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 03, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
It used to be 400. But then again, we'd just be getting crappier brackets.

Yeah, I thought of that and edited my post JUST before you posted! ;D

Maybe we should raise it to 700 - current highway buses are pretty darned comfortable! :D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 03, 2013, 10:08:00 PM
And then there was the revenue from the previous NCAA March Madness contract that allocated one bid for every 7.5 schools (not 6.5 schools).  That meant fewer Pool C bids.  We really had some good teams sitting on the table when the last Pool C bid was let.

That was not good!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 04, 2013, 11:03:46 AM

You also have to remember that they'll go back to pods next year.  In a normal d3 tournament, they'd likely be meeting somewhere in PA to play, so both teams would be driving.  Then again, they might bring all four teams to WPI - you never know.

Driving is part of the gig sometimes.  Win more games, less chance of a long drive.  Pretty simple formula.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 04, 2013, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: FanJacket on March 03, 2013, 07:48:21 PM
Did the NCAA consider the "economics" of their 75th anniversary anomoly...and not not the amount of time the student athlete could miss class??  Perhaps a "special dispensation" ($$) should be considered this year on the men's side...but then again the NCAA doesn't seem to be able to forsee and adapt (Abeit temporary) solutions to fit the "best interset of the student athlete".

Speaking of which, any word on the broadcasting of the D2 and D3 championship games?  Are they going to get CBS airtime or will it be CBS Sports Network or the same old internet broadcast again?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 04, 2013, 11:06:56 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 04, 2013, 11:03:46 AM

You also have to remember that they'll go back to pods next year.  In a normal d3 tournament, they'd likely be meeting somewhere in PA to play, so both teams would be driving.  Then again, they might bring all four teams to WPI - you never know.

Driving is part of the gig sometimes.  Win more games, less chance of a long drive.  Pretty simple formula.
Live in Texas or the northwest and play one and hopefully two games in the area and then be flown three hours away.  ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 04, 2013, 01:45:41 PM
The games will be broadcast on CBS Sports Network and simulcast on NCAA.com. Usually NCAA.com will have its own broadcast as well, but I have been told by those at Turner (where I have been trying unsuccessfully to secure a gig for any games even in Salem) that this year they will simulcast.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 04, 2013, 02:26:00 PM
So at least we get a TV broadcoast this year on the men's side at least.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2013, 11:15:33 AM
Home teams were 24-6 with two of those losses being Stevens (played at Lehman College) and Ramapo (played at Nyack). Rose-Hulman, Trinity (TX), Hampden-Sydney and Springfield also failed to protect homecourt.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 05, 2013, 12:06:51 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2013, 11:15:33 AM
Home teams were 24-6 with two of those losses being Stevens (played at Lehman College) and Ramapo (played at Nyack). Rose-Hulman, Trinity (TX), Hampden-Sydney and Springfield also failed to protect homecourt.

Here's hoping my team(Cabrini) keeps winning on the road!  :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 05, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
I know this is OT, but since we were just talking about getting the championship game on TV.

Looking through my DVR guide I've found four NAIA conference championship games on TV in the last 2 days.  And of course both division 2 & division 1 NAIA men's and women's championship games are on CBSSports.  Why doesn't some D-3 conference get there championship games on Fox College Sports??  Granted, it's invisible and will pretty much be watched by no one except me, but at least it's a start and gets airtime.  I saw the WIAC championship game on FCS last year, but didn't notice it this year.  Anyone know why none of the conferences get their championship games to FCS??
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: 7express on March 05, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
I know this is OT, but since we were just talking about getting the championship game on TV.

Looking through my DVR guide I've found four NAIA conference championship games on TV in the last 2 days.  And of course both division 2 & division 1 NAIA men's and women's championship games are on CBSSports.  Why doesn't some D-3 conference get there championship games on Fox College Sports??  Granted, it's invisible and will pretty much be watched by no one except me, but at least it's a start and gets airtime.  I saw the WIAC championship game on FCS last year, but didn't notice it this year.  Anyone know why none of the conferences get their championship games to FCS??

Lackluster PR?  I imagine the ratings those games would get is roughly equivalent to whatever taped show they run it its place.  Why send a crew out to do a live game when it's going to cost more money and be harder to convince sponsors to buy time for?

I'm not sure if that's it or not - but at some point it's a pure cost calculation that we're just not going to win.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ethelred the Unready on March 06, 2013, 05:29:50 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 05, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Quote from: 7express on March 05, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
I know this is OT, but since we were just talking about getting the championship game on TV.

Looking through my DVR guide I've found four NAIA conference championship games on TV in the last 2 days.  And of course both division 2 & division 1 NAIA men's and women's championship games are on CBSSports.  Why doesn't some D-3 conference get there championship games on Fox College Sports??  Granted, it's invisible and will pretty much be watched by no one except me, but at least it's a start and gets airtime.  I saw the WIAC championship game on FCS last year, but didn't notice it this year.  Anyone know why none of the conferences get their championship games to FCS??

Maybe they could just pick up the "local" feed.  I've seen/heard some pretty entertaining college announcers

Lackluster PR?  I imagine the ratings those games would get is roughly equivalent to whatever taped show they run it its place.  Why send a crew out to do a live game when it's going to cost more money and be harder to convince sponsors to buy time for?

I'm not sure if that's it or not - but at some point it's a pure cost calculation that we're just not going to win.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 06:27:09 AM
Just fixing the quotes... ???  ::)  ;)


Quote from: 7express on March 05, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
I know this is OT, but since we were just talking about getting the championship game on TV.

Looking through my DVR guide I've found four NAIA conference championship games on TV in the last 2 days.  And of course both division 2 & division 1 NAIA men's and women's championship games are on CBSSports.  Why doesn't some D-3 conference get there championship games on Fox College Sports??  Granted, it's invisible and will pretty much be watched by no one except me, but at least it's a start and gets airtime.  I saw the WIAC championship game on FCS last year, but didn't notice it this year.  Anyone know why none of the conferences get their championship games to FCS??


Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 05, 2013, 08:07:31 PM
Lackluster PR?  I imagine the ratings those games would get is roughly equivalent to whatever taped show they run it its place.  Why send a crew out to do a live game when it's going to cost more money and be harder to convince sponsors to buy time for?

I'm not sure if that's it or not - but at some point it's a pure cost calculation that we're just not going to win.

Quote from: Ethelred the Unready on March 06, 2013, 05:29:50 AM
Maybe they could just pick up the "local" feed.  I've seen/heard some pretty entertaining college announcers
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 10:01:56 AM
Thought it would be interesting to see how the regionally ranked teams have done in the tourney in the 1st round.  I've included the Pool A teams that weren't regionally ranked as well.



         ATL               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.      RESULTS   
   1      Ramapo      NJAC      LOST to Morrisville State 86-78   
   2      Old.Westbury      SKY         
   3      Rutgers.Newark  POOL C      NJAC       LOST to Christopher Newport 84-72   
   4      RicardStockton      NJAC         
   5      SUNY.Purchase      SKY      LOST to WPI 80-67   
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Staten.Island      CUNYAC      LOST to Catholic 67-61   
                        
         EAST               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1      Rochester  POOL C      UAA      BEAT Fitchburg State 91-86; vs. Ithaca   
   2      SUNY.Cortland      SUNYAC      BEAT  Elms 85-59; vs. Middlebury   
   3      Stevens   POOL C      E8      LOST to Randolph-Macon 69-60   
   4      Plattsburgh.State  POOL C      SUNYAC      BEAT Husson 84-63; vs. Amherst   
   5      Hobart       LL       LOST to RIC 62-59 OT   
   6      Oswego.State      SUNYAC         
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Morrisville State       NEAC      BEAT Ramapo 86-78; vs. RIC    
                        
         DROPPING OUT               
   NR      Ithaca        E8      BEAT  Springfield 89-77; vs. Rochester   
   NR      NYU      UAA         
   NR      SUNY.Geneseo      SUNYAC         
                        
         GT LK               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1      Wooster  POOL C      NCAC      BEAT Penn. St.-Behrend 62-44; vs. Dickinson   
   2      Ohio.Wesleyan       NCAC      BEAT St. Vincent 84-75; vs. Cabrini   
   3      St.Vincent        PrAC       LOST to Ohio Wesleyan 84-75   
   4      Thomas.More       PrAC         
   5      Capital      OAC         
   6      Calvin        MIAA      BEAT  Rose-Hulman 72-52; vs. Stevens Point   
                        
         DROPPING OUT               
   NR      Marietta      OAC       LOST to Dickinson 80-65   
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Penn St.-Behrend      AMCC       LOST to Wooster 62-44   
                        
         MID-ATL               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1       Alvernia       MACC      BEAT  Albertus Magnus 97-78; vs. St. Mary's   
   2       Catholic       LAND      BEAT  Staten Island 67-61; vs. Williams   
   3      Albright      MACC         
   4      St.Mary's(Md.)        CAC      BEAT  MIT 85-76; vs. Alvernia   
   5      Wesley  POOL C      CAC       LOST to Williams 79-78   
   6      Scranton      LAND         
   7      DeSales      MACF         
   8      Salisbury       CAC         
   9      Frank&Marsh      CC         
                        
         DROPPING OUT               
   NR      Cabrini      CSAC      BEAT  Hampden-Sydney 80-78; vs. Ohio Wesleyan   
   NR       Dickinson       CC      BEAT  Marietta 80-65; vs. Wooster   
   NR      Arcadia      MACC         
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
          Delaware Valley       MACF       LOST to ViWU 76-61   
                        
         MW               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1      Illinois.Wesleyan    POOL C      CCIW      BEAT Transylvania 80-71; vs. Washington U.   
   2      WashingtonU.      UAA      BEAT Spalding 70-61; vs. IWU   
   3      Wheaton  POOL C      CCIW      BEAT St. Norbert 59-58; vs. St. Thomas   
   4      North Central.(IL)      CCIW      BEAT Centre 66-50; vs. Whitewater   
   5      Transylvania  POOL C      HCAC       LOST to IWU 80-71   
   6      Rose.Hulman       HCAC       LOST to Calvin 72-52   
   7      St.NorbertSt.Norbert      MWC       LOST to Wheaton 59-58   
   8      Augustana       CCIW         
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Aurora      NATHCON       LOST to St. Thomas 91-62   
                        
         NE               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1      Amherst      NESCAC      vs. Plattsburgh State   
   2      WPI      NEWMAC      BEAT SUNY-Purchase 80-67; vs. RMC   
   3      Williams POOL C      NESCAC      BEAT Wesley 79-78; vs. Catholic   
   4      RIC        LEC      BEAT Hobart 62-59 OT; vs. Morrisville State   
   5      Middlebury POOL C      NESCAC      BEAT Curry 68-66; vs. Cortland State   
   6      MIT  POOL C      NEWMAC       LOST to St. Mary's 85-76   
   7      Springfield  POOL C      NEWMAC       LOST to Ithaca 89-77   
   8      Brandeis      UAA         
   9      Curry      CCC       LOST to Middlebury 68-66   
   10      Westfield State      MASCAC         
   11      East.Conn.State      LEC         
   12      Tufts      NESCAC         
                        
         DROPPING OUT               
   NR      Albertus.Magnus      GNAC       LOST to Alvernia 97-78   
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Fitchburg State      MASCAC       LOST to Rochester 91-66   
         Husson      NAC       LOST to Plattsburgh St. 84-63   
         Elms      NECC       LOST to Cortland St. 85-59   
                        
         SOUTH               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1      Virginia.Wesleyan POOL C      ODAC      BEAT Delaware Valley 76-61; vs. Christopher Newport   
   2      Hampden.Sydney  POOL C      ODAC       LOST to Cabrini 80-78   
   3      MHB  POOL C      ASC      vs. Concordia-Texas   
   4      Chris.Newport       USAC      BEAT Rutgers-Newark 84-72; vs. VWU    
   5      Emory  POOL C      UAA      BEAT Randolph 77-56; vs. Whitworth   
   6      Concordia(TX)       ASC      BEAT Trinity-Texas 87-83; vs. MHB   
   7      Texas.Dallas      ASC         
   8      Randolph  POOL C      ODAC       LOST to Emory 77-56   
                        
         DROPPING OUT               
   NR       Lynchburg      ODAC         
   NR      Guilford      ODAC         
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Randolph-Macon       ODAC      BEAT Stevens 69-60; vs WPI   
         Trinity       SCAC       LOST to Concordia-Texas 87-83   
         Spalding       SLIAC       LOST to Washington U. 70-61   
                        
         Centre POOL B      SAA       LOST to North Central 66-50   
         WEST               
   RNK3      TEAM      CONF.         
   1      St.Thomas       MIAC      BEAT Aurora 91-62; vs. Wheaton   
   2      Stevens.Point POOL C      WIAC      BEAT Northwestern 71-54; vs. Calvin   
   3      Whitewater       WIAC      BEAT Dubuque 58-42; vs. North Central   
   4      Whitworth       NWC      BEAT Redlands 75-69; vs. Emory   
   5      Buena.Vista       IIAC         
   6      Stout      WIAC         
   7      Con.Moorhead      MIAC         
   8      Augsburg      MIAC         
   9      Whitman      NWC         
                        
         DROPPING OUT               
   NR      Luther      IIAC         
                        
         NEVER RANKED               
         Dubuque       IIAC       LOST to Whitewater 58-42   
         Redlands       SCIAC       LOST to Whitworth 75-69   
         Northwestern       UMAC       LOST to Stevens Point 71-54   
                        
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 10:17:22 AM
Just looking at the regionally ranked teams and not the SOS or anything like that, I'm trying to figure out what were true upsets in the 1st round.

I suppose Calvin over RHIT on the road was a slight upset, if any. 
Even though on the road, not sure if Concordia-Texas's win over Trinity was much of an upset.
Morrisville State over Ramapo was definitely an upset.
Randolph-Macon over Stevens is one.
I really don't think Dickinson over Marietta is one since it was at Dickinson.
Hampden-Sydney losing to Cabrini at home is one.
Ithaca winning on the road at Springfield is a slight upset.

What do you think?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on March 06, 2013, 11:40:40 AM
 The underrated MA had a good 1st round going 5-1 for ever-ranked teams vs. other regions and the loss was a 1-pointer on the road:

   MID-ATL   

   RNK3   TEAM                   CONF.   
   1         Alvernia               MACC   BEAT  Albertus Magnus 97-78; vs. St. Mary's   
   2         Catholic               LAND    BEAT  Staten Island 67-61; vs. Williams   
   3         Albright               MACC         
   4         St.Mary's(Md.)     CAC      BEAT  MIT 85-76; vs. Alvernia   
   5         Wesley  POOL C    CAC     LOST to Williams 79-78   
   6         Scranton              LAND
   7         DeSales               MACF 
   8         Salisbury             CAC   
   9         Frank&Marsh        CC       

   DROPPING OUT   
   NR      Cabrini                 CSAC     BEAT  Hampden-Sydney 80-78; vs. Ohio Wesleyan   
   NR      Dickinson             CC         BEAT  Marietta 80-65; vs. Wooster   
   NR      Arcadia                MACC   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 06, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 10:17:22 AM
Just looking at the regionally ranked teams and not the SOS or anything like that, I'm trying to figure out what were true upsets in the 1st round.

I suppose Calvin over RHIT on the road was a slight upset, if any. 
Even though on the road, not sure if Concordia-Texas's win over Trinity was much of an upset.
Morrisville State over Ramapo was definitely an upset.
Randolph-Macon over Stevens is one.
I really don't think Dickinson over Marietta is one since it was at Dickinson.
Hampden-Sydney losing to Cabrini at home is one.
Ithaca winning on the road at Springfield is a slight upset.

What do you think?

Using efficiency/schedule adjusted efficiency I had only 3

Dickenson over Marietta.....but a home court adjustment might have made that a toss up
Cabrini over Hampden-Sydney
Ithaca over Springfield.....was actually a pretty big upset
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 06, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: sac on March 06, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 10:17:22 AM
Just looking at the regionally ranked teams and not the SOS or anything like that, I'm trying to figure out what were true upsets in the 1st round.

I suppose Calvin over RHIT on the road was a slight upset, if any. 
Even though on the road, not sure if Concordia-Texas's win over Trinity was much of an upset.
Morrisville State over Ramapo was definitely an upset.
Randolph-Macon over Stevens is one.
I really don't think Dickinson over Marietta is one since it was at Dickinson.
Hampden-Sydney losing to Cabrini at home is one.
Ithaca winning on the road at Springfield is a slight upset.

What do you think?

Using efficiency/schedule adjusted efficiency I had only 3

Dickenson over Marietta.....but a home court adjustment might have made that a toss up
Cabrini over Hampden-Sydney
Ithaca over Springfield.....was actually a pretty big upset

sac,
Are you saying you don't think Morrisville State over Ramapo was an upset?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 06, 2013, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 06, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: sac on March 06, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 10:17:22 AM
Just looking at the regionally ranked teams and not the SOS or anything like that, I'm trying to figure out what were true upsets in the 1st round.

I suppose Calvin over RHIT on the road was a slight upset, if any. 
Even though on the road, not sure if Concordia-Texas's win over Trinity was much of an upset.
Morrisville State over Ramapo was definitely an upset.
Randolph-Macon over Stevens is one.
I really don't think Dickinson over Marietta is one since it was at Dickinson.
Hampden-Sydney losing to Cabrini at home is one.
Ithaca winning on the road at Springfield is a slight upset.

What do you think?

Using efficiency/schedule adjusted efficiency I had only 3

Dickenson over Marietta.....but a home court adjustment might have made that a toss up
Cabrini over Hampden-Sydney
Ithaca over Springfield.....was actually a pretty big upset

sac,
Are you saying you don't think Morrisville State over Ramapo wasn't an upset?

Morrisville's eff was 1 point higher than Ramapo, adjusting for schedule Ramapo was 6 higher.   Its a close one.

The three I listed were the only 3 where the winner had a lower eff and adjusted eff. 

Whether I personally think it was an upset is a different question. ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on March 06, 2013, 02:16:08 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Yep, this is painful.  If you win you get rewarded with sitting around another week.   :'(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 06, 2013, 03:08:12 PM
If I was the home team, I'm not sure if I'd even practice on Monday and Tuesday. Maybe a light shooting workout and film on Tuesday, full practice Wednesday and Thursday, and your 90 minute NCAA workout on Friday. I wonder how teams are treating it.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on March 06, 2013, 03:14:56 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on March 06, 2013, 03:08:12 PM
If I was the home team, I'm not sure if I'd even practice on Monday and Tuesday. Maybe a light shooting workout and film on Tuesday, full practice Wednesday and Thursday, and your 90 minute NCAA workout on Friday. I wonder how teams are treating it.

Calvin has been on the road but they took a similar approach last week and will again this week according to the Hoospville interview with Kevin Vande Streek last Sunday night. Although if I remember correctly, coach said they went light on Monday, completely off on Tuesday then hard on Wednesday.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 06, 2013, 03:46:03 PM
NCAA won-lost records by region

Atlantic              0-4

East                  5-2

Great Lakes       3-3

Mid Atlantic       5-2

Midwest            4-4

Northeast         4-7

South              5-5

West               4-3
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 06, 2013, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Just 4 1/2 weeks to go ::)

lets never do this again.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 06, 2013, 04:03:46 PM
Quote from: sac on March 06, 2013, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Just 4 1/2 weeks to go ::)

lets never do this again.

The NCAA will probably drag this format out again when the 100th anniversary rolls around in 25 years. I doubt that I'll be around to witness it though. ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 06, 2013, 04:03:46 PM
Quote from: sac on March 06, 2013, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Just 4 1/2 weeks to go ::)

lets never do this again.

The NCAA will probably drag this format out again when the 100th anniversary rolls around in 25 years. I doubt that I'll be around to witness it though. ;D

Oh, such pessimism!  You'd only be 89 or 90 - my mom's still going strong at 95 (and my died died last spring at 93)! ;D

(Of course, unlike me, they never smoked or drank. :P)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 06, 2013, 04:52:44 PM
I would put more money on there not being an NCAA or something entirely different in 25 years, than on celebrating 100 years.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Knightstalker on March 06, 2013, 04:55:24 PM
Quote from: sac on March 06, 2013, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 06, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: sac on March 06, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 10:17:22 AM
Just looking at the regionally ranked teams and not the SOS or anything like that, I'm trying to figure out what were true upsets in the 1st round.

I suppose Calvin over RHIT on the road was a slight upset, if any. 
Even though on the road, not sure if Concordia-Texas's win over Trinity was much of an upset.
Morrisville State over Ramapo was definitely an upset.
Randolph-Macon over Stevens is one.
I really don't think Dickinson over Marietta is one since it was at Dickinson.
Hampden-Sydney losing to Cabrini at home is one.
Ithaca winning on the road at Springfield is a slight upset.

What do you think?

Using efficiency/schedule adjusted efficiency I had only 3

Dickenson over Marietta.....but a home court adjustment might have made that a toss up
Cabrini over Hampden-Sydney
Ithaca over Springfield.....was actually a pretty big upset

sac,
Are you saying you don't think Morrisville State over Ramapo wasn't an upset?

Morrisville's eff was 1 point higher than Ramapo, adjusting for schedule Ramapo was 6 higher.   Its a close one.

The three I listed were the only 3 where the winner had a lower eff and adjusted eff. 

Whether I personally think it was an upset is a different question. ;)

If the NCAA had allowed Ramapo to host Moo-Ville at the Bradley Center Moo-Ville would not have won.  The NCAA in it's narrow-mindedness regarding the sports betting issue in NJ screwed Ramapo.  The NCAA can't even police its own people properly.  NJ had not enacted sports betting yet because there was a Federal court decision that had to be made.  The law would have not allowed betting on any games involving NJ colleges or universities and illegal sports betting ie organized crime happens in every state and is much more likely to impact games then legal sports betting.  The undefeated 5th ranked MSU women are really getting screwed, they should be hosting games also.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2013, 05:15:56 PM
The law is on the books... that is the key. The federal court decision to be made was per a lawsuit from the major pro sports AND the NCAA... it is in accordance to the 1992 federal law that prohibits many types of gambling in all states except Oregon, Montana, Nevada and Delaware where such laws allowing it were already on the books (even though Nevada was the only one using the laws). New Jersey was actually given a year after that law was passed to allow sports betting and be exempt as well, but chose not to do so.

The NCAA does not disallow any teams or venues from hosting events in Oregon, Montana or Delaware because sports betting, while being on the books and grandfathered in, is not actually done. You will notice the NCAA does not allow any tournament under the direction of the NCAA to be hosted in Nevada. The difference is that New Jersey passed a law that goes against the federal law and against NCAA bylaws (again the other states were grandfathered in) and if it wasn't for a lawsuit or court action would actually have sports betting taking place at this time.

When Delaware thought about acting on it's own laws... the NCAA warned them that if they did, any hosting opportunities for schools like Delaware State, Univ. of Delaware, and most importantly Wesley, would be pulled. When New Jersey then thought about passing this law... the NCAA and the schools in the state warned the legislature that if they did so, the NCAA would enact these bans - the state moved forward and so did the NCAA.

So please explain to me how the NCAA is narrow-minded in this issue? If you are saying this is unfair to Division III and possibly Division II teams where games are not usually bet on, I would agree. Thus the reason that apparently the Division III President's Council is looking into the matter and will most likely appeal to the NCAA that the line was drawn too far and should be pulled backward. Furthermore, if the NCAA and the major pro sports continue to win their case (two federal courts have now ruled against New Jersey) including, most likely, all the way to the Supreme Court, then New Jersey will be forced to get rid of the law and then the NCAA will pull the restrictions back since sports betting will no longer be an issue.

What I am basically saying is, this isn't new on the NCAA's part. It is in the by-laws and it is in their actions for a very long time. Does it hurt the Division III athletes? Absolutely... but that is something I think New Jersey legislature should be looking at themselves about, not people blaming the NCAA for something that isn't new. Of course, if New Jersey ends up winning their case (and the more people I talk to the less likely that seems), then a Pandora's Box will open with plenty more states probably enacting similar laws (as slots has shown with neighboring states) and then the NCAA is going to be in a major tough spot.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2013, 05:33:48 PM

NJ won't have to get rid of the law.  I lived there and voted on it.  The text of the law as presented says sports gambling will be legal if federal law allows it.

If the court case is shot down, the NJ law will still be on the books unless they do another vote to repeal.

I'm not sure how the NCAA will handle things when/if the court case is over, but the law remains.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 06, 2013, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 06, 2013, 03:46:03 PM
NCAA won-lost records by region

Atlantic              0-4

East                  5-2

Great Lakes       3-3

Mid Atlantic       5-2

Midwest            4-4

Northeast         4-7

South              5-5

West               4-3

What does this look like if you take out games played between two teams from the same region?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2013, 05:44:21 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 06, 2013, 05:33:48 PM

NJ won't have to get rid of the law.  I lived there and voted on it.  The text of the law as presented says sports gambling will be legal if federal law allows it.

If the court case is shot down, the NJ law will still be on the books unless they do another vote to repeal.

I'm not sure how the NCAA will handle things when/if the court case is over, but the law remains.

Could be interesting, but if federal law and the courts prohibit it, then they couldn't push forward and thus the concern would be over from the standpoint of the pro sports and the NCAA... but it could be looked at from other angles to be sure.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 06, 2013, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2013, 05:15:56 PM
If you are saying this is unfair to Division III and possibly Division II teams where games are not usually bet on, I would agree. Thus the reason that apparently the Division III President's Council is looking into the matter and will most likely appeal to the NCAA that the line was drawn too far and should be pulled backward.

This is my position. The state of New Jersey is hardly reaping a financial impact from Ramapo hosting games. If we were talking about a D-I Regional at the Meadowlands Arena it'd be different. But 1,000 fans for a D-III game shouldn't be on the radar.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2013, 05:55:14 PM
Well... I certainly agree... I think this is more like a line has to be drawn and for two reasons the NCAA drew it all the way: they haven't had to draw the line before and they probably wanted to send a message. Sure... not thinking about who this really hurts is probably a strong case... but I think they also are saying that when they say all NCAA events... they mean all NCAA events.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 06, 2013, 06:00:25 PM
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/03/05/new-jersey-colleges-can-temporarily-host-ncaa-events-after-betting-law-stalls

A federal court last week threw out a New Jersey law that legalized sports betting last year, but not before college teams were adversely affected by the National Collegiate Athletic Association's crackdown on competition there.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 06, 2013, 06:22:59 PM
Yeah - I alluded to that... but New Jersey still has a chance to appeal (it was the second time a court has gone against New Jersey) and until it is actually out of the court system it is going to affect the student-athletes. As Frank and I discussed on Sunday's Hoopsville... there is a very good chance this goes all the way to the Supreme Court, but we are talking at least a year at this point.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 06, 2013, 07:21:25 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 06, 2013, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 06, 2013, 03:46:03 PM
NCAA won-lost records by region

Atlantic              0-4

East                  5-2

Great Lakes       3-3

Mid Atlantic       5-2

Midwest            4-4

Northeast         4-7

South              5-5

West               4-3

What does this look like if you take out games played between two teams from the same region?
One less win and one less loss for each of the games played intra-region...   ;)

And no change for the Atlantic Region.   ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 06, 2013, 07:41:25 PM
The West would be 1-0!  ::)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Knightstalker on March 06, 2013, 08:41:50 PM
Dave, living in NJ all my life I know what the law was and I know what the federal law is.   I also think it is something that should be up to individual states, not the federal government, but that is political and I won't go there.  When I refer to the narrow-mindedness of the NCAA, I am talking about the one size fits all way they tend to look at things.  The NJ Legislature and Governor Christie did address the NCAA about this back when they made their ruling.  What really bothers me is the NCAA can't seem to keep from tripping over their own feet, look at the investigation in the University of Miami and how they bungled that.  The NCAA's decision to not let the facts get in the way of their bungling never ceases to amaze me.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 06, 2013, 08:53:21 PM
The South went 3-3 in inter-region games.

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Potential MHB schedule

3 games in 3 days (conf. tourney, I think)
2 weeks off
2nd round game
Week off
Sweet 16
Week off
2 games in 2 days (elite 8/final 4)
2 weeks off
Final

What are the chances MHB and Amherst come out flat?


Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: NittanyLion95 on March 07, 2013, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Potential MHB schedule

3 games in 3 days (conf. tourney, I think)
2 weeks off
2nd round game
Week off
Sweet 16
Week off
2 games in 2 days (elite 8/final 4)
2 weeks off
Final

What are the chances MHB and Amherst come out flat?

This Plattsburgh State alum hopes the chances are pretty good! ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Andy Archibald on March 07, 2013, 12:54:49 PM
Quote from: NittanyLion95 on March 07, 2013, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Potential MHB schedule

3 games in 3 days (conf. tourney, I think)
2 weeks off
2nd round game
Week off
Sweet 16
Week off
2 games in 2 days (elite 8/final 4)
2 weeks off
Final

What are the chances MHB and Amherst come out flat?

This Plattsburgh State alum hopes the chances are pretty good! ;D


It will be intresting to see how The Cru responds to having 13 full days off. It is a long time between games but in all cases they should be fully rested. (if that really means much) Having the game against a fairly heated conference rival that beat them 13 days ago should help to get them going.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: imderekpoe on March 07, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
I can see on the Civic Center site the game times in Salem (noon, 2:30, 5:30, 8:00).  Have the bracket quadrants already been assigned a specific game time, or will that not be decided until the match-ups are known?  I'm guessing that maybe games 1 & 2 are on one side of the bracket and games 3 & 4 are the other side?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 01:21:12 PM
NJAC: 0-2
SKY: 0-1
CUNYAC: 0-1
NCAC: 2-0
UAA: 3-0
SUNYAC: 2-0
E8: 1-1
LL: 0-1
NEAC: 1-0
PrAC: 0-1
MIAA: 1-0
OAC: 0-1
AMCC: 0-1
MACC: 1-0
LAND: 1-0
CAC: 1-1
CSAC: 1-0
CC: 1-0
MACF: 0-1
CCIW: 3-0
HCAC: 0-2
MWC: 0-1
NATHCON: 0-1
NESCAC: 2-0 Amherst-bye
NEWMAC: 1-2
LEC: 1-0
CCC: 0-1
GNAC: 0-1
MASCAC: 0-1
NAC: 0-1
NECC: 0-1
ASC: 1-0 MHB-bye
USAC: 1-0
SCAC: 0-1
SLIAC: 0-1
SAA: 0-1
MIAC: 1-0
WIAC: 2-0
NWC: 1-0
IIAC: 0-1
SCIAC: 0-1
UMAC: 0-1
ODAC: 2-2
ASC: 0-1
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: (509)Rat on March 07, 2013, 01:22:32 PM
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgifstumblr.com%2Fimages%2Fim-bored_1030.gif&hash=76231f21738fa6bfef0e69c9f48b64342fbd1249)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 01:30:41 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on March 07, 2013, 01:22:32 PM
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgifstumblr.com%2Fimages%2Fim-bored_1030.gif&hash=76231f21738fa6bfef0e69c9f48b64342fbd1249)

Hence my last post...bored too!

P.S. disregard the ASC 0-1 at the end...hard to edit on phone!

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 01:57:55 PM
NEW GAME TO PASS THE TIME

I think we did something similar in the past.

NAME A 10-MAN ALL-STATE ROSTER

I will try to work on Wisconsin's today.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 07, 2013, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: imderekpoe on March 07, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
I can see on the Civic Center site the game times in Salem (noon, 2:30, 5:30, 8:00).  Have the bracket quadrants already been assigned a specific game time, or will that not be decided until the match-ups are known?  I'm guessing that maybe games 1 & 2 are on one side of the bracket and games 3 & 4 are the other side?

Generally this is decided once the matchups are set. It's both art and science, based on who the teams are, how far they're traveling, what the fan base might be, etc.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 02 Warhawk on March 07, 2013, 04:01:23 PM
Out of curiosity, why are these games so far a part? Is it to give each school a week to make travel accomidations?

Even during the regular season most teams played twice a week.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 07, 2013, 04:04:52 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on March 07, 2013, 04:01:23 PM
Out of curiosity, why are these games so far a part? Is it to give each school a week to make travel accomidations?

Even during the regular season most teams played twice a week.

By the time the finals were set, I'd assume it was too late to change the dates of the whole post-season.  With the finals coming a full 5 weeks after the start of the tourney, there has to be 'down time' somewhere, so may as well space out the games so as not to have one or more huge gaps.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 07, 2013, 05:09:56 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on March 07, 2013, 04:01:23 PM
Out of curiosity, why are these games so far a part? Is it to give each school a week to make travel accomidations?

Even during the regular season most teams played twice a week.

Still catching up from football season huh?

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/07/2013-tournament-spread-out
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2013, 06:39:31 PM
There were two things that forced this time shift... the fact that the NCAA wanted to celebrate the 75th Anniversary of basketball with all the title games in Atlanta - and the decision coming late enough that the entire season could not be shifted... AND the fact the D1 Final Four was shifted back a week apparently because of Easter which is the "fifth" weekend of March and would have forced a Monday, April 1st title game - but that date... the fact the first full weekend of April was not the finish time-frame is more my theory than Easter because a number of sporting events are played/competed on holidays in this country.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 07, 2013, 07:14:32 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 06, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
Bah - this tourney schedule feels like football season!  Games just once a week, then a long wait for the next one. :(

Potential MHB schedule:

After 10 games in January 2013,

here is the schedule since 02/01/2013.


02/07/2013  Schreiner
02/09/2013  Texas Lutheran
02/14/2013  HPU
02/16/2013  Sul Ross State


3 games in 3 days ( ASC conf. tourney)
2 weeks off
2nd round game
Week off
Sweet 16
Week off
2 games in 2 days (elite 8/final 4)
2 weeks off
Final

What are the chances MHB and Amherst come out flat?
:)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SevenTen on March 07, 2013, 07:54:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2013, 06:39:31 PM
There were two things that forced this time shift... the fact that the NCAA wanted to celebrate the 75th Anniversary of basketball with all the title games in Atlanta - and the decision coming late enough that the entire season could not be shifted... AND the fact the D1 Final Four was shifted back a week apparently because of Easter which is the "fifth" weekend of March and would have forced a Monday, April 1st title game - but that date... the fact the first full weekend of April was not the finish time-frame is more my theory than Easter because a number of sporting events are played/competed on holidays in this country.

Strangely enough, it's actually the Masters golf tournament that drives all of this.  The Masters always finishes the second Sunday in April.  In this case, March 31st falls on a Sunday which means that it's two Sunday's later (4/14/13) making it the latest it can be.  Since CBS broadcasts both the D1 Tournament and the Masters, the D1 tournament always finishes up on the Monday night of the Masters week.  They would never overlap them on the same weekend. 

So for example, next year the Masters will end 4/13 meaning the NCAA final four is the week before.  Now in a few years after the calendar rolls the Masters and NCAA will be earlier.  In 2018, April 1st is a Sunday which makes April 8th the second Sunday and thus the final day of the Masters.  The D1 tournament will thus end Monday, April 2nd which is the earliest it can ever be.

When in doubt, always assume it's TVs fault. =)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2013, 10:27:39 PM
I certainly can't say that isn't the case... but I also would say it wouldn't kill CBS to have them on the same week time period. My high school classmate is the VP for remote operations for CBS Sports and having talked him about his schedule from time to time during the year... I would be pretty sure he would LOVE to get a few extra days before dealing with the Master - I am sure his family would appreciate that too :).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 08, 2013, 10:51:55 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 07, 2013, 06:39:31 PM
There were two things that forced this time shift... the fact that the NCAA wanted to celebrate the 75th Anniversary of basketball with all the title games in Atlanta - and the decision coming late enough that the entire season could not be shifted... AND the fact the D1 Final Four was shifted back a week apparently because of Easter which is the "fifth" weekend of March and would have forced a Monday, April 1st title game - but that date... the fact the first full weekend of April was not the finish time-frame is more my theory than Easter because a number of sporting events are played/competed on holidays in this country.

Easter's a little bit different as far as holidays go.  You try and tell someone's Italian Grandma in NY or Philly that you're going to watch basketball at her house on the day between Good Friday and Easter and see if you come out of that conversation alive.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 08, 2013, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 01:57:55 PM
NEW GAME TO PASS THE TIME

I think we did something similar in the past.

NAME A 10-MAN ALL-STATE ROSTER

I will try to work on Wisconsin's today.

I told you I was bored. Here's a quick look...not too familiar with MWC or NathCon.  Threw in Thompson from Carthage and CCIW

Chas Cross - Platteville - 17.4 pts/9.8 rebs Conference Player of the Year
Alex Oman - Stout - 14.9/4.8
Zach Peterson - River Falls - 13.8/7.1
Trevor Hass - Stevens Point - 12.4/4.6
Quadrell Young - Whitewater - 10.8/3.63 assists/1.88 steals
Jake Schwartz - Lakeland - 20.7/10.4 Conference Player of the Year
Justin Ward - Lakeland - 16.3/8.2
Taylor Koth - Ripon College - 24.6/9.4 Conference Player of the Year
James Lazarcik - Beloit - 16.2/11.4
Mitch Thompson - Carthage - 13.8/6.9
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: John Gleich on March 08, 2013, 02:46:28 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 08, 2013, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 01:57:55 PM
NEW GAME TO PASS THE TIME

I think we did something similar in the past.

NAME A 10-MAN ALL-STATE ROSTER

I will try to work on Wisconsin's today.

I told you I was bored. Here's a quick look...not too familiar with MWC or NathCon.  Threw in Thompson from Carthage and CCIW

Chas Cross - Platteville - 17.4 pts/9.8 rebs Conference Player of the Year
Alex Oman - Stout - 14.9/4.8
Zach Peterson - River Falls - 13.8/7.1
Trevor Hass - Stevens Point - 12.4/4.6
Quadrell Young - Whitewater - 10.8/3.63 assists/1.88 steals
Jake Schwartz - Lakeland - 20.7/10.4 Conference Player of the Year
Justin Ward - Lakeland - 16.3/8.2
Taylor Koth - Ripon College - 24.6/9.4 Conference Player of the Year
James Lazarcik - Beloit - 16.2/11.4
Mitch Thompson - Carthage - 13.8/6.9

FWIW, I'd still throw Tyler Tillema on this list. Even injured, he's better than half the guys on that list!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on March 08, 2013, 03:29:12 PM
This is pretty rough, guys.  I didn't think the time between rounds would be quite this interminable, but it really is.  Special anniversaries or no, they really can't ever stretch the tournament out like this again.  Maybe it's different for folks following teams in the field, but as fan in general it's super, super hard to stay invested/interested in this tournament. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ethelred the Unready on March 08, 2013, 03:34:02 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 08, 2013, 02:13:14 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 07, 2013, 01:57:55 PM
NEW GAME TO PASS THE TIME

I think we did something similar in the past.

NAME A 10-MAN ALL-STATE ROSTER

I will try to work on Wisconsin's today.

I told you I was bored. Here's a quick look...not too familiar with MWC or NathCon.  Threw in Thompson from Carthage and CCIW

Chas Cross - Platteville - 17.4 pts/9.8 rebs Conference Player of the Year
Alex Oman - Stout - 14.9/4.8
Zach Peterson - River Falls - 13.8/7.1
Trevor Hass - Stevens Point - 12.4/4.6
Quadrell Young - Whitewater - 10.8/3.63 assists/1.88 steals
Jake Schwartz - Lakeland - 20.7/10.4 Conference Player of the Year
Justin Ward - Lakeland - 16.3/8.2
Taylor Koth - Ripon College - 24.6/9.4 Conference Player of the Year
James Lazarcik - Beloit - 16.2/11.4
Mitch Thompson - Carthage - 13.8/6.9

Can we do this by region?  Since NY is divided into East and Mid-Atlantic I'll attempt "East" NY off the top of my head

John DiBartolomeo - Rochester - 23.4/5.7/5.4 - UAA Player of the Year - Jostens Finalist
Jake Simmons - Buff State - 21/4
Rod Epps - Buff State - 20/4/2
Richie Bonney - Hobart - 19.5/8.7
Carl Yaffe - NYU - 15/7.6
Mickey Davis - Morrisville - 17.5/6
Kevin Donohoe - Union - 19.7/8 - Jostens Finalist
Matt Devine - New Paltz - 21/7
Jared Sudderly - Hartwick - 18/7
Sean Rossi - Ithaca - 8/7assts - DIII record holder for career assists

I forgot there was another Jostens Finalist in NY.  Jason Norsen from St John Fisher deserves t be on this list somewhere
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 08, 2013, 04:42:53 PM
It only gets worse from here unless you were MHB or Amherst with two full weeks off.  Normally, it's Fri/Sat (or Thurs/Sat) and then Fri/Sat. This year we get Sat. and then Sat...so really, we only get an added day.  Granted, after tomorrow, we usually have four games in and this year just two!  Admittedly, it's always slow Sunday through Friday anyway.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 08, 2013, 04:53:54 PM
The good news is at this slow pace of the tournament, Pat Coleman can fly from Atlanta directly to Appleton, Wisconsin for the D-III World Series.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 08, 2013, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on March 08, 2013, 04:53:54 PM
The good news is at this slow pace of the tournament, Pat Coleman can fly from Atlanta directly to Appleton, Wisconsin for the D-III World Series.

LOL and I am half tempted to fly straight to Philly for the lacrosse championship weekend :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: nescac1 on March 08, 2013, 10:48:52 PM
I'd be pretty confident going up against any state with the best from Massachusetts.  Tremendous balance with stars at center (Mayer/Kaasila/Tashman), point (Toomey / Kates / Berthiaume) and wing scorers (Epley / Jones / Coppola / Workman). 

Aaron Toomey, Amherst
Willy Workman, Amherst
Michael Mayer, Williams
Taylor Epley, Williams
Alex Berthiaume, Springfield
Mitchell Kates, MIT
Will Tashman, MIT
Sedale Jones, Curry
Marco Coppola, WPI
Peter Kaasila, Amherst

Gabriel Moton of Brandeis, Ryan Kolb of WPI, Nate Robertson of Williams, Ben Ferris of Tufts all could make a solid case as well.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 09, 2013, 01:21:32 AM
That's definitely a who's who of fantasy leaguers!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 03:00:48 PM

So is the game start delayed or is the live feed just not working?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 09, 2013, 03:12:23 PM
Live stats are running... not sure why the video from Cortland State is down.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 04:02:23 PM

Williams feed isn't working either.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frodotwo on March 09, 2013, 04:08:40 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 04:02:23 PM

Williams feed isn't working either.

None of them are  ???
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 04:45:53 PM

Middlebury wins 67-64 to be the first team moving on to the Sweet Sixteen.

Williams over Catholic by 3 (41-38) at the half.  Amherst over Plattsburgh 50-37 (also at the half).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 05:22:15 PM

Williams-Catholic feed now working.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 05:35:12 PM
Amherst over Plattsburgh 89-72.

Williams over Catholic.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 07:13:35 PM

Ohio Wesleyan has a really high quality video feed - also the commentators are very good.  I'm pretty sure they're students, but they know what they're doing.  No graphics, but the scoreboard is very clear on one side of the court.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 07:28:37 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 07:13:35 PM

Ohio Wesleyan has a really high quality video feed - also the commentators are very good.  I'm pretty sure they're students, but they know what they're doing.  No graphics, but the scoreboard is very clear on one side of the court.

Great game, as well.  These teams are very similar.  Both have a lot of scorers, led by a very talented guard.  The OWU big men are more complete players, which I think will be the difference.  It's great seeing Cabrini's aggressiveness going against Wesleyan's discipline.  Fun game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 07:40:32 PM

OWU 39, Cabrini 37 at the half.  Crazy end.

OWU fouls Fran Rafferty on a three with three seconds to go.  He hits them all to cut it to two.  Then OWU launches a three quarter court prayer which looked to be going off the front rim when Cabrini's Goran Dulac jumped up, hand through the net, to knock it away.  The refs let it go, but it could have easily been called a goaltend.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 07:43:43 PM
Wooster all over Dickinson: 47-23 at the half.  All other games in progress are reasonably close.

RMC is up 9 at the half over WPI, but I'd call that 'reasonably close'. ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 07:43:43 PM
Wooster all over Dickinson: 47-23 at the half.  All other games in progress are reasonably close.

Wooster and Amherst might be the only blowouts we get today.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: David Collinge on March 09, 2013, 07:56:13 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 07:13:35 PM

Ohio Wesleyan has a really high quality video feed - also the commentators are very good.  I'm pretty sure they're students, but they know what they're doing.  No graphics, but the scoreboard is very clear on one side of the court.

The Yoder brothers are not students although they both were in the not-too-distant past. It could be called a semi-professional webcast; OWU has next to no media facilities and the brothers more or less sit in the stands a few rows up from midcourt. They do a fabulous job.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 08:29:12 PM

These Cabrini guys are just absolutely fearless.  Terrific coaching job.  Both last year and this one, they're playing well above the talent on the floor.  Relentless.  Very impressed.

Four point lead with about 5 minutes to go.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: David Collinge on March 09, 2013, 08:42:43 PM
Wooster ousts Dickinson 80-54.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: donho on March 09, 2013, 08:48:09 PM
Macon ousts WPI 79-68.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
Cabrini pulls it out.  Aaron Walton-Moss with almost a triple double (only 9 assists).  Jeremy Knowles grabbed the ball right out of Andy Winters' hands with 6 seconds to go and then nailed two clutch FTs to essentially seal it.  OWU had a chance to tie at the buzzer, but didn't get a great look.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 08:57:21 PM

Randy-Mac are the real road warriors this year.  First round trip to NY (350 miles), second round trip to WPI (497) and now a third round trip to Amherst (450).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 08:58:07 PM

Also, Sean Rossi lives!  Ithaca ousts Rochester 70-68.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: David Collinge on March 09, 2013, 09:02:48 PM
Cabrini will next face Wooster, very probably at Wooster. A rematch of a Sweet 16 game of 2 seasons ago, won by Wooster 94-77. Wooster went on to lose the championship final, just as Cabrini did the following season.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 08:58:07 PM

Also, Sean Rossi lives!  Ithaca ousts Rochester 70-68.

DiBartolemeo scored two points, both FTs.  Crazy.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 09:04:19 PM

RIC and Morrisville State in OT.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: donho on March 09, 2013, 09:05:42 PM
 Hoops Fan, thats great. We will be 40 miles closer to home!!!! :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 09:13:56 PM

Morrisville State!


I might get to see them next week at St. Mary's!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 09, 2013, 09:15:30 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 09:13:56 PM

Morrisville State!


I might get to see them next week at St. Mary's!
Morrisville State 65, RIC 61 OT.
I guess that I am the first to call the Morrisville State Mustangs the real dark horse in the Sweet 16.

(Ba-da-dum!)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 09, 2013, 09:24:16 PM
What a wacky tournament so far!

I donn't think many had them beating Ramapo and almost no one had them beating RIC.
Randolph-Macon travels from Virginia-New York back to Virginia up to Worcester, MA and pulls off 2 wins.
Ithaca beats Rochester in Rochester
Cabrini wins 2 road games
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 09, 2013, 09:26:40 PM
Morrisville State leads Rhode island 62-61 with 15 seconds to go in overtime. Mo State at the line for free throws and they make them both to go up by three. Rhode Island comes down and throws up a 3 point attempt to tie the game but it doesn't go down and the Mustangs get the rebound. Rhode Island fouls with 2 seconds left. Jordan Prior hits both free throws and the Mustangs win 66-61. A big upset as the Mustangs will now go to the round of 16 for the first time in school history.

Jailaan Kinsey of Morrisville hit a big 3 pointer with 26 seconds to go in regulation to tie the game. Rhode Island with plenty of time to go for the game winner had the ball stolen by the Mustangs Rhamel Williams with 6 seconds left.

The Mustangs then came from behind in overtime 3 times and finally took the lead for good on 2 free throws by Prior with 46 seconds to go.  Mustangs' Brandon Hanks promptly stole the ball on the Anchormen's possession and fed Prior for a layup to give them a 62-58 lead with 30 seconds left.. Rhode Island could never catch up.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 09, 2013, 09:31:42 PM
Damn, MHB already has 94 points and there's still more then 10 minutes left to play.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: northb on March 09, 2013, 09:46:52 PM
Calvin 67
UWSP 58
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 09, 2013, 09:47:50 PM
Another barnburner as North Central goes to the line up 61-60 over Whitewater with 17 seconds to go. Vince Kmiec makes them both to give the Cardinals a 3 point lead. Whitewater takes a timeout to set up a play for the tie with 14 ticks left. Whitewater attempts a three and misses and Raridon is fouled. He makes 1 of 2 to ice the game and North Central advances 64-60 over Whitewater.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 09, 2013, 09:50:12 PM
Illinois Wesleyan defeats Washington U by a score of 71-67.

Next week North Central and Illinois Wesleyan will go at it one more time.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 09, 2013, 09:53:29 PM
Wheaton making one last push now only trails St Thomas 64-58 with 1:16 left to play.


It's now a final as St. Thomas wins 68-58  over Wheaton.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 10:00:14 PM
Woohoo - the Bracket of Death will be a CCIW rematch!  IWU trailed WashU 0-1, then again by 1 with about 4 minutes left in the game; otherwise led the whole way, though never comfortably.  NCC in a back-and-forth duel with UWW, but wins at the end.

Now c'mon Wheaton!  Let's match NESCAC with three in the sweet 16! ;D  (Though I do have the Tommies winning it all, so I'm a bit conflicted! ;))
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 10:05:08 PM
There's going to be some flights going on next weekend.  As far as I can tell:


Calvin and St. Thomas are over 500 miles apart.

I think Williams and VWC are over 500, although it's very close.

MHB and whoever wins the late game are obviously over 500.


That could be three flights (although, honestly, it's almost easier and less stressful for Williams or VWC to drive even if it's over 500 miles).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 10:11:00 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:05:08 PM

That could be three flights (although, honestly, it's almost easier and less stressful for Williams or VWC to drive even if it's over 500 miles).

I'm just saying, sure it's a ten hour bus ride - but the alternative is getting up at 5am to be at the airport at 5:30 for a 7am flight (because there's only two flights into Albany each day and the other one lands after midnight).  Fly to Charlotte, sit in the airport three hours, then fly up to Albany, where you have to get on a bus and drive the hour to Williamstown.

It's ten hours of travel either way.  I'd take the bus, personally - at least you could get some decent sleep and not have to wake up butt early.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: toad22 on March 09, 2013, 10:14:23 PM
The official NCAA map has Va. Wesleyan - Williams at a few miles over 500.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: John Gleich on March 09, 2013, 10:15:47 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:11:00 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:05:08 PM

That could be three flights (although, honestly, it's almost easier and less stressful for Williams or VWC to drive even if it's over 500 miles).

I'm just saying, sure it's a ten hour bus ride - but the alternative is getting up at 5am to be at the airport at 5:30 for a 7am flight (because there's only two flights into Albany each day and the other one lands after midnight).  Fly to Charlotte, sit in the airport three hours, then fly up to Albany, where you have to get on a bus and drive the hour to Williamstown.

It's ten hours of travel either way.  I'd take the bus, personally - at least you could get some decent sleep and not have to wake up butt early.

That was the tale of the Whitman women who played at Williams this weekend... the vid is (or was this morning) on the front page.

Though, obviously, they don't have the option of driving...


Quote from: toad22 on March 09, 2013, 10:14:23 PM
The official NCAA map has Va. Wesleyan - Williams at a few miles over 500.

I think teams have the option to decline the flight. I seem to vaguely recall someone doing that in the last decade... not common, but possible. Maybe to the Final Four?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 10:17:33 PM
Don't know for sure about VWC/Williams, but posters on the ODAC board say it is 'only' 450 from RMC to Amherst.  Haven't consulted a map, but seems like it might come in just under 500.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 10:30:22 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 10:17:33 PM
Don't know for sure about VWC/Williams, but posters on the ODAC board say it is 'only' 450 from RMC to Amherst.  Haven't consulted a map, but seems like it might come in just under 500.

Google maps has it at like 435.  I don't have the official program, but it's closer than WPI, so it will be drivable for them.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 09, 2013, 10:32:18 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 08:57:21 PM

Randy-Mac are the real road warriors this year.  First round trip to NY (350 miles), second round trip to WPI (497) and now a third round trip to Amherst (450).

Cabrini is a close second. Hampden-Sydney(313 miles), Ohio Wesleyan (476) and Wooster(425). A lot of frequent driver miles!  ;D The Ohio and PA turnpikes are going to love that! Hope they have EZ Pass!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 09, 2013, 10:34:43 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:30:22 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 10:17:33 PM
Don't know for sure about VWC/Williams, but posters on the ODAC board say it is 'only' 450 from RMC to Amherst.  Haven't consulted a map, but seems like it might come in just under 500.

Google maps has it at like 435.  I don't have the official program, but it's closer than WPI, so it will be drivable for them.
According to https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles (https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles) Virginia Wesleyan to Williams is 532 miles
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 10:38:01 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 09, 2013, 10:34:43 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:30:22 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 09, 2013, 10:17:33 PM
Don't know for sure about VWC/Williams, but posters on the ODAC board say it is 'only' 450 from RMC to Amherst.  Haven't consulted a map, but seems like it might come in just under 500.

Google maps has it at like 435.  I don't have the official program, but it's closer than WPI, so it will be drivable for them.
According to https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles (https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles) Virginia Wesleyan to Williams is 532 miles

Google had 534, not too far off.  I'd still choose to drive - unless the NCAA will shell out for an extra night in the hotel so the team could travel thursday.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 09, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
You can also charter flights from smaller airports.

It's 2013, flying isn't that difficult.  This isn't some Indiana Jones trek to Southeast Asia in the 1930's. :) ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 09, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
Quote from: sac on March 09, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
You can also charter flights from smaller airports.

It's 2013, flying isn't that difficult.  This isn't some Indiana Jones trek to Southeast Asia in the 1930's.

You're saying the NCAA will spring for a direct charter for the D3 sweet sixteen?  I find that hard to believe.  Albany's already a pretty small airport and I don't think there's one closer that could handle more than a two seater.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: realist on March 09, 2013, 10:50:22 PM
Not sure what other road teams have done, but Calvin went to RHIT on Thursday night, and they planned to do the same this weekend to UWSP.  Grand Rapids to MSP is about a 1 hour flight, and several every day.  Nice to see some new names cracking the 16.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 09, 2013, 10:58:40 PM
Last week home teams won 24 times while the road teams only won 6 games. This week we're at 8 road wins with one game still being played.

Cabrini, Calvin, Randloph-Macon, Ithaca and Morrisville State winning both games on the road.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 10, 2013, 12:15:22 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
Quote from: sac on March 09, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
You can also charter flights from smaller airports.

It's 2013, flying isn't that difficult.  This isn't some Indiana Jones trek to Southeast Asia in the 1930's.

You're saying the NCAA will spring for a direct charter for the D3 sweet sixteen?  I find that hard to believe.  Albany's already a pretty small airport and I don't think there's one closer that could handle more than a two seater.

The NCAA has done so in the past.  Whitworth men flew to Holland, MI on a charter from Spokane, in Holland they picked up the Hope women and flew them to Brownsville, Texas in 2008.

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive, economical planes available.  Not everything has to be jet service from a major airport.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 10, 2013, 12:17:32 AM
Quote from: sac on March 10, 2013, 12:15:22 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
Quote from: sac on March 09, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
You can also charter flights from smaller airports.

It's 2013, flying isn't that difficult.  This isn't some Indiana Jones trek to Southeast Asia in the 1930's.

You're saying the NCAA will spring for a direct charter for the D3 sweet sixteen?  I find that hard to believe.  Albany's already a pretty small airport and I don't think there's one closer that could handle more than a two seater.

The NCAA has done so in the past.  Whitworth men flew to Holland, MI on a charter from Spokane, in Holland they picked up the Hope women and flew them to Brownsville, Texas in 2008.

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive, economical planes available.  Not everything has to be jet service from a major airport.

Well, I hope they hook them up, although I doubt they're getting closer to Williamstown than Albany - but a direct flight from Norfolk would be good.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 10, 2013, 12:26:16 AM
Quote from: sac on March 10, 2013, 12:15:22 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
Quote from: sac on March 09, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
You can also charter flights from smaller airports.

It's 2013, flying isn't that difficult.  This isn't some Indiana Jones trek to Southeast Asia in the 1930's.

You're saying the NCAA will spring for a direct charter for the D3 sweet sixteen?  I find that hard to believe.  Albany's already a pretty small airport and I don't think there's one closer that could handle more than a two seater.

The NCAA has done so in the past.  Whitworth men flew to Holland, MI on a charter from Spokane, in Holland they picked up the Hope women and flew them to Brownsville, Texas in 2008.

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive, economical planes available.  Not everything has to be jet service from a major airport.
Correction, respectfully.

Brownwood  Tx, 160 miles southwest of Dallas, 140 miles northwest of Austin, in west central Texas.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 10, 2013, 12:32:41 AM
Quote from: sac on March 10, 2013, 12:15:22 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 09, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
Quote from: sac on March 09, 2013, 10:44:44 PM
You can also charter flights from smaller airports.

It's 2013, flying isn't that difficult.  This isn't some Indiana Jones trek to Southeast Asia in the 1930's.

You're saying the NCAA will spring for a direct charter for the D3 sweet sixteen?  I find that hard to believe.  Albany's already a pretty small airport and I don't think there's one closer that could handle more than a two seater.

The NCAA has done so in the past.  Whitworth men flew to Holland, MI on a charter from Spokane, in Holland they picked up the Hope women and flew them to Brownsville, Texas in 2008.

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive, economical planes available.  Not everything has to be jet service from a major airport.

The NCAA will only pay for a charter over a certain distance. (I think that range is 900 miles.) If Williams or Virginia Wesleyan wants to fly charter rather than commercial, it will almost certainly have to pick up the distance.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 10, 2013, 12:34:48 AM
Quote from: 7express on March 09, 2013, 09:31:42 PM
Damn, MHB already has 94 points and there's still more then 10 minutes left to play.
Concordia TX plays and "up-tempo/let's score so we can get back on defense" style of game.

CTX had 87.2 possessions per game this season, so these types of games are very common with them.  If you can run with them, then the scores can get out of hand, but you have to have a deep bench of good athletes.  Also, the officials tonight were calling plenty of fouls.

UMHB won the season series 3-1.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dark Knight on March 10, 2013, 08:57:18 AM
When is the last time there was no WIAC team in the round of 16?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wooscotsfan on March 10, 2013, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Dark Knight on March 10, 2013, 08:57:18 AM
When is the last time there was no WIAC team in the round of 16?

It occurred in 2009 when 3 WIAC teams made the tournament (UWSP, UWW, UWP) and they all lost in the 2nd round with none of them reaching the Sweet 16.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 10, 2013, 11:09:54 AM
Quote from: Dark Knight on March 10, 2013, 08:57:18 AM
When is the last time there was no WIAC team in the round of 16?

Actually, not too long ago...

2012
First Round
3/2--Edgewood 75, UW-River Falls 67 (at River Falls)
3/2--Illinois Wesleyan 69, UW-Stevens Point 61 (at Holland, MI)
3/2--UW-Whitewater 83, Northwestern (MN) 68

Second Round (at Whitewater)
3/3--UW-Whitewater 91, St. Thomas (MN) 62
Sectional Semifinal (at Whitewater)
3/9--UW-Whitewater 67, Wheaton (IL) 56

Sectional Final (at Whitewater)
3/10--UW-Whitewater 76, Virginia Wesleyan 62

Final Four (at Salem, VA)
3/16--UW-Whitewater 71, Massachusetts Institute of Technology 56
3/17--UW-Whitewater 63, Cabrini (PA) 60
UW-Whitewater National Champions

2011
First Round
3/4--Illinois Wesleyan 83, UW-River Falls 76 (at St. Paul, MN)
3/4--UW-Stevens Point 70, St. Norbert 49 (at Mequon)

Second Round (at Mequon)
3/5--UW-Stevens Point 76, Luther (IA) 56
Sectional Semifinal (at Rock Island, IL)
3/11--St. Thomas (MN) 66, UW-Stevens Point 64

2010
First Round
3/5--UW-Stevens Point 59, Carleton (MN) 58 (at Stevens Point)
3/5--UW-Whitewater 75, Defiance (OH) 71 (at Wooster, OH)

Second Round
3/6--UW-Stevens Point 63, St. Norbert 48 (at Stevens Point)
3/6--Wooster (OH) 87, UW-Whitewater 78 (at Wooster, OH)

Sectionals (at Stevens Point)
3/12--UW-Stevens Point 74, Texas-Dallas 67
3/13--UW-Stevens Point 72, Illinois Wesleyan 56

Final Four (at Salem, VA)
3/19--UW-Stevens Point 72, Randolph-Macon (VA) 60
3/20--UW-Stevens Point 78, Williams (MA) 73
UW-Stevens Point National Champions

2009
First Round
3/6--UW-Platteville 83, Hope (MI) 59 (at Wheaton, IL)
3/6--UW-Stevens Point 61, Cornell (IA) 53 (at St. Paul, MN)
3/6--UW-Whitewater 81, Elmhurst (IL) 79 (Overtime) (at Elmhurst, IL)

Second Round
3/7--Wheaton (IL) 74, UW-Platteville 69 (Overtime) (at Wheaton, IL)
3/7--St. Thomas (MN) 53, UW-Stevens Point 50 (at St. Paul, MN)
3/7--Washington (MO) 73, UW-Whitewater 70 (at Elmhurst, IL)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 10, 2013, 11:46:06 AM
I guess you can say 2009 was a disappointing year.  But Platteville lost to Wheaton and Whitewater lost to Wash. U.  Wash U. then beat Wheaton and then St. Thomas in the Elite 8 (after St. Thomas had beaten Point in the 2nd round) on their way to the National Championship.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 10, 2013, 09:06:51 PM
 :( SIGH :(  Now begins another 'football' week - no games 'til Saturday!

The women prep for the FF; we prep for the Sweet Sixteen. :P

(Am I correct in assuming that the men, but not the women, were involved in this schedule because the NCAA came so late to the women's game?  The women's 50th will be in 2032 - I wonder if they'll replicate this? ;)  And how many of us will still be around to care? ;D)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 10, 2013, 09:34:57 PM
There's talk about doing it for the 35th women's.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 10, 2013, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 10, 2013, 09:34:57 PM
There's talk about doing it for the 35th women's.

So 2017?

I'll hope to stick around at least that long, and hope to be able to bemoan the Titan women having to wait forever for their next game! ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 10, 2013, 09:55:41 PM
Well... there is indications of something brewing maybe in 2015... UWSP only has the hosting for 2014 and while I can't get anything confirmed from those on the committee, the suspicion is that having the women do the same thing the men have done. I am under the impression that is the 35th Anniversary... but I thought it was happening far sooner than 2017.

Now, if the women do it... they will have hindsight on the men's side to thank. More time to plan it so it will maybe affect when the season starts, finishes, or when conference tournaments are run... so there is less time between the end of the season and the title game. The men were already stuck having this approved later than most thought it would be and schedules already set for the year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 10, 2013, 10:03:37 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 10, 2013, 09:55:41 PM
Well... there is indications of something brewing maybe in 2015... UWSP only has the hosting for 2014 and while I can't get anything confirmed from those on the committee, the suspicion is that having the women do the same thing the men have done. I am under the impression that is the 35th Anniversary... but I thought it was happening far sooner than 2017.

Now, if the women do it... they will have hindsight on the men's side to thank. More time to plan it so it will maybe affect when the season starts, finishes, or when conference tournaments are run... so there is less time between the end of the season and the title game. The men were already stuck having this approved later than most thought it would be and schedules already set for the year.

The first NCAA women's b'ball championship was 1982.  Prior to that it was the AIAW.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 10, 2013, 10:17:03 PM
Yeah... I hear ya... I just thought the timeline was shorter.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 10, 2013, 11:32:56 PM
The 2015 D1 Women's Final Four is at the Forum in Tampa Bay.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvTJWc1jNQVVXLCuqQ0aN72MGfPemkg4RkxRo_5AQua9pLaqp4JA)

By my count the 35th anniversary would be 2016.  The women's D1 Final Four is at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis that year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 10, 2013, 11:59:52 PM
Quote from: sac on March 10, 2013, 11:32:56 PM
The 2015 D1 Women's Final Four is at the Forum in Tampa Bay.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvTJWc1jNQVVXLCuqQ0aN72MGfPemkg4RkxRo_5AQua9pLaqp4JA)

By my count the 35th anniversary would be 2016.  The women's D1 Final Four is at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis that year.

Yeah - I took 1982 and added 35.  But the 35th championship would be 2016. :-[

We may have to wait several extra weeks to see that Hope/IWU showdown for the title! ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 11, 2013, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: sac on March 10, 2013, 11:32:56 PM
The 2015 D1 Women's Final Four is at the Forum in Tampa Bay.

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvTJWc1jNQVVXLCuqQ0aN72MGfPemkg4RkxRo_5AQua9pLaqp4JA)

By my count the 35th anniversary would be 2016.  The women's D1 Final Four is at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis that year.

Isn't that going to be really slippery with all that ice?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2013, 06:40:42 AM
T minus THREE weeks until the Final!  ???  >:(  :'(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: 7express on March 16, 2013, 03:19:36 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 16, 2013, 06:40:42 AM
T minus THREE weeks until the Final!  ???  >:(  :'(

I love how the D-3 tournament starts 2 weeks before the D-2 tournament does and 3 weeks before the D-1 tournament does, yet will end 3 hours before the D-2 does and about 17 hours before the D-1 ends.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 05:41:21 PM

Rough out for Ithaca.  Accidental foul with six seconds to go and a one point lead.  Middlebury hits both and wins by 1.

Amherst made short work of RMC; it seems like all the travel may have caught up with them - looked very lethargic out there in the first half.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 08:12:17 PM

Wooster apparently wasn't ready for the web traffic a Sweet Sixteen broadcast would bring.  I can't get the thing to load for more than thirty seconds before it freezes.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 08:49:31 PM

Three NESCAC teams and Cabrini on to Salem, plus St. Mary's seems to have that game locked up, dominating from the opening tip.

Looks like the NCAA only has to pay for six flights to Salem.  Not terrible.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 16, 2013, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2013, 08:12:17 PM

Wooster apparently wasn't ready for the web traffic a Sweet Sixteen broadcast would bring.  I can't get the thing to load for more than thirty seconds before it freezes.

Probably the worst broadcast I've seen online. :'( :o Sound was non-existent. Constantly buffered. It wasn't until late in the second half did I see the stream go longer than 30 seconds.  >:(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 08:58:20 PM
Quote from: mailsy on March 16, 2013, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2013, 08:12:17 PM

Wooster apparently wasn't ready for the web traffic a Sweet Sixteen broadcast would bring.  I can't get the thing to load for more than thirty seconds before it freezes.

Probably the worst broadcast I've seen online.  Sound was non-existent. Constantly buffered. It wasn't until late in the second half did I see the stream go longer than 30 seconds.

I had sound all the way through, even when the picture didn't come in.  I also got the first 18 minutes without buffering and the last ten or so.

If that was the worst broadcast you've seen, you clearly skipped the Amherst game earlier.  I had to mute it about two minutes in.  Oof.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2013, 08:49:31 PM

Three NESCAC teams and Cabrini on to Salem, plus St. Mary's seems to have that game locked up, dominating from the opening tip.

Looks like the NCAA only has to pay for six flights to Salem.  Not terrible.


Hold your horses there, buddy.  Morrisville has cut the deficit to 12 with ten minutes remaining.  It's not over yet.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 09:04:46 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2013, 08:49:31 PM

Three NESCAC teams and Cabrini on to Salem, plus St. Mary's seems to have that game locked up, dominating from the opening tip.

Looks like the NCAA only has to pay for six flights to Salem.  Not terrible.


Hold your horses there, buddy.  Morrisville has cut the deficit to 12 with ten minutes remaining.  It's not over yet.

No, it's definitely over.  Morrisville got a favorable match-up with RIC, but they've been outclassed at St. Mary's.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 09:10:22 PM

Deberg 5-7 from deep to give St Thomas a twelve point lead.  Bryan Powell of Calvin came back with his own 5-7 including NBA-range threes on three straight possessions.  Craziness in St. Paul.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2013, 09:27:53 PM
I enjoyed the Frank Rossi/Eric Stark broadcast from St Mary's MD.

Thanks, and I hope your drive home is easy.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 09:38:15 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2013, 09:27:53 PM
I enjoyed the Frank Rossi/Eric Stark broadcast from St Mary's MD.

Thanks, and I hope your drive home is easy.

I thought it was a very good broadcast.  Multiple cameras, replay, and solid announcers.  The game, on the other hand, let's just say I'm glad I didn't do the five hour round trip drive tonight.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 09:47:34 PM


Dave, time to get the old blog rolling again.  Fans of the #1 team in the country, playing at home, run on the court three times! before the game is actually over.

Have some respect people.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 16, 2013, 09:57:53 PM


Well, I've got four of the seven on my bracket - if Whitworth wins I'll have 5/8 with all four of my final four still alive.  Not a bad year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 16, 2013, 10:12:45 PM
Round 1, Home teams 24-6. Round 2, 8-8. Round 3, back to home teams winning, 6-1 2. With only Mary Hardin Baylor the last road team to have a chance to win. Cabrini being the true road warrior this year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: mailsy on March 16, 2013, 11:27:05 PM
What time are the 4 games to be played on Friday?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2013, 11:48:47 PM
Congratulations to UMHB, 71-63 winners over Whitworth.

UMHB is the 3rd ASC team to go to the Elite 8.  (McMurry in 2000, UT-Dallas in 2009).

I can never recall an ASC men's team ever hosting a Sweet 16 game (frequently due to geographical isolation) in the entire history of the conference's participation in D-III.

Congratulations to the CRU.  They will match very well against St Mary's.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 18, 2013, 12:20:47 AM
Does Salem have a website for the Elite Eight next weekend?  Will the games on Friday and Saturday be streamed, and if so, how can I find the links?  Thanks, WB.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 18, 2013, 10:23:34 AM
Quote from: mailsy on March 16, 2013, 11:27:05 PM
What time are the 4 games to be played on Friday?

St. Thomas vs Williams 12 pm
St. Marys vs MHB 2:30
Amherst vs Cabrini 5:30
NCC cs Middlebury 8:00
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Drake Palmer on March 18, 2013, 01:25:01 PM
At the risk of being terrorized by other posters  ;), but I've checked the D3hoops site and I've not noticed if the national quarterfinals games will be webcast. Does anyone know?

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 18, 2013, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: Drake Palmer on March 18, 2013, 01:25:01 PM
At the risk of being terrorized by other posters  ;), but I've checked the D3hoops site and I've not noticed if the national quarterfinals games will be webcast. Does anyone know?

I'm sure they will be, but nothing up on scoreboard yet.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 18, 2013, 02:12:23 PM
NCAA.com will be broadcasting all of the games including the All-Star game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 18, 2013, 02:22:41 PM
Dave mentioned this on Hoopsville last night:

Hoopsville with Dave and Pat Coleman would be on before the first game and between the NCAA broadcasts, with updates, recaps, pregame info on the next game and possible guest coaches. Sounds like a nonstop day of D3hoops.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 18, 2013, 11:25:54 PM
Just for the sake of reference, let's look at each of the Elite Eight teams' road thus far, using the latest d3hoops.com poll and the Massey Ratings:

St. Thomas (#1 d3h / #1 Massey)
UNR / #76 Aurora
#22 / #11 Wheaton (IL)
#12 /  #4 Calvin
d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #30

Williams (#8 d3h / #8 Massey)
UNR  / #43 Wesley
#9 / #22 Catholic
#25 / #20 Virginia Wesleyan
d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #28

Mary Hardin-Baylor (UNR d3h / #17 Massey)
-- bye --
UNR / #18 Concordia (TX)
#6 / #14 @ Whitworth
d3h avg. = #29 / Massey avg. = #16 or #148 (including bye)

St. Mary's (MD) (#11 d3h / #10 Massey)
#24 / #67 MIT
#26 / #23 @ Alvernia
UNR / #121 Morrisville State
d3h avg. = #30 / Massey avg. = #70

Amherst (#2 d3h / #5 Massey)
-- bye --
UNR / #66 Plattsburgh State
UNR / #16 Randolph-Macon
d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #41 or #165 (including bye)

Cabrini (#30 d3h / #26 Massey)
#16 / #9 @ Hampden-Sydney
#21 / #30 @ Ohio Wesleyan
#20 / #31 @ Wooster
d3h avg. = #19 / Massey avg. = #23

North Central (#3 d3h / #2 Massey)
UNR / #65 Centre
#5 / #3 vs. UW-Whitewater
#10 / #7 Illinois Wesleyan
d3h avg. = #18 / Massey avg. = #25

Middlebury (#7 d3h / #19 Massey)
UNR / #123 Curry
UNR / #29 @ Cortland State
UNR / #74 Ithaca
d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #79

(For all teams unranked by d3hoops.com, I assigned a #40 value, since 39 teams received votes in the last poll. For the two teams that received byes, the second Massey number includes a #413 ranking for the open slot, since there are 412 D3 men's basketball teams rated by Massey.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 18, 2013, 11:26:49 PM

Now, let's look at the Elite Eight in terms of their aggregate opponent rankings/ratings:


St. Thomas:d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #30
Williams:d3h avg. = #25 / Massey avg. = #28
Mary Hardin-Baylor:d3h avg. = #29 / Massey avg. = #16 or #148 (including bye)
St. Mary's (MD):d3h avg. = #30 / Massey avg. = #70
Amherst:d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #41 or #165 (including bye)
Cabrini:d3h avg. = #19 / Massey avg. = #23
North Central:d3h avg. = #18 / Massey avg. = #25
Middlebury:d3h avg. = #40 / Massey avg. = #79

A few things jump out:

* Cabrini's run is really impressive. The Cavaliers are the greatest road warriors since Mel Gibson. Not only have they faced the second-most highly-ranked teams (d3hoops.com), just barely behind NCC, and most highly-rated teams (Massey) on average, they've won all three of those games on the road. Cabrini needs to get much more of a shout-out from the d3boards.com regulars (myself included) for this remarkable feat than it's gotten thus far.

* Aside from Cabrini, North Central (representing the so-called "Bracket of Death") has had the toughest road to Salem. Williams and St. Thomas follow next, in close proximity to each other. St. Mary's and Mary Hardin-Baylor have had it comparatively easy, although I'd argue that UMHB's two-thousand-mile flight to beat Whitworth in the home gym of the Pirates more than cancels out the benefit of having a first-round bye.

* Amherst and Middlebury have had the two easiest roads to the Elite Eight, by either the d3hoops.com or Massey standard. Even if you were to take away Amherst's first-round bye and force the Lord Jeffs to play either one of what would've been the two likeliest choices for their first-round opponent if this was a 63-team bracket rather than a 62-team bracket -- the Brandeis Judges, who were unranked in the latest d3hoops.com poll and currently sit at #48 in the Massey Ratings, or the Springfield Pride, who are unranked and #97 -- Amherst's tourney strength of schedule doesn't improve much by either standard, and it certainly doesn't vault them past any of the other seven Elite Eight teams by comparison.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2013, 06:31:08 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 18, 2013, 11:26:49 PM

* Amherst and Middlebury have had the two easiest roads to the Elite Eight, by either the d3hoops.com or Massey standard. Even if you were to take away Amherst's first-round bye and force the Lord Jeffs to play either one of what would've been the two likeliest choices for their first-round opponent if this was a 63-team bracket rather than a 62-team bracket -- the Brandeis Judges, who were unranked in the latest d3hoops.com poll and currently sit at #48 in the Massey Ratings, or the Springfield Pride, who are unranked and #97 -- Amherst's tourney strength of schedule doesn't improve much by either standard, and it certainly doesn't vault them past any of the other seven Elite Eight teams by comparison.

And Middlebury has won by 2 at home, 4 on the road and 1 at home. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2013, 11:00:07 AM
I saw that Lakeland's Jake Schwartz was on the poll to be voted in as one of the last two players for the all-star team. Then I was disappointed when he didn't get enough votes. I see now that he did make the East squad. How did that happen?

It would have been great to see SEVEN games in just two days this weekend. How different are the prices this year with four games on Friday and three on Saturday? Looks like they could charge for an afternoon session and an evening session.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 19, 2013, 11:30:36 AM

I think I've seen all but one of Cabrini's tournament games over the past three years, about a third of those in person.  The thing that jumps out at me over and over is their absolute fearlessness.  Road or home doesn't really matter because these guys genuinely play like whatever they try is going to work out.  They step up in big moments and don't get down in tough ones.  This is prime coaching pure and simple.  Whatever Kahn is doing to instill this kind of confidence in these guys is outstanding.

I'd compare it to the way last year's Kentucky team played - the big difference being Kentucky was the most talented team on the floor every time out.  These Cabrini guys are good, but they weren't the most talented team in Wooster on Saturday, they just didn't care.

I began watching them because they're close to where I live - I honestly came in seeing them as sort of villains, certainly outsiders and I think these boards have shown some of the rhetoric against them.  However, over three years, they've won me over.  I have a lot of respect for the approach they take to the game.

I think Amherst is the worst possible matchup for them - a team that can run as well, if not better, with better talent overall.  At the same time, there's no way I'd count them out.  I think this will be THE game to watch on Friday.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 19, 2013, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2013, 11:00:07 AM
I saw that Lakeland's Jake Schwartz was on the poll to be voted in as one of the last two players for the all-star team. Then I was disappointed when he didn't get enough votes. I see now that he did make the East squad. How did that happen?

It would have been great to see SEVEN games in just two days this weekend. How different are the prices this year with four games on Friday and three on Saturday? Looks like they could charge for an afternoon session and an evening session.

Greek,

Jake Schwartz was chosen as a 1st Team All District Player from the Midwest Region. The NABC All Star Game features players that were 1st Team selections from the different regions. They take 2 players from each district to form the All Star Teams. That's how Jake made the team. 2 of the Midwest 1st teamers are from North Central and they can't be on the All Star team since they are still playing in the tournament. That only leaves 4 other players from the 1st team (the 1st team has 6 players on it) to consider for the All Star game choices.

Here's the link to all the NABC All District Selections:
http://static.psbin.com/z/e/dtmf3oj4do2ttt/2013_NABC_Division_III_All-District_Teams_and_Coaches.pdf
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
There is a good chance that of the two players selected ahead of him to play... one or both decided not to make the trip. So instead of being on the outside looking in after the fan vote, he is playing since he was the next in line.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2013, 02:55:02 PM
I think magic misunderstood me, but Dave cleared things up. Thanks.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 19, 2013, 05:39:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
There is a good chance that of the two players selected ahead of him to play... one or both decided not to make the trip. So instead of being on the outside looking in after the fan vote, he is playing since he was the next in line.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2013, 02:55:02 PM
I think magic misunderstood me, but Dave cleared things up. Thanks.

Not sure that Dave cleared things up.

I looked at the rosters listed for the All Star game and both the players that were selected by the fan voting, Spencer Niekamp from Capital and Jake Galow of Rhodes were listed on the teams. Niekamp was put on the West team and Galow was on the East team (listed as Andrew Galow instead of Jake Galow). If, as Dave states, one of these players decided not to make the trip, then why are they listed on the team? ???  That was why I said that Jake Schwarz made the team for being a Midwest Region 1st team All District selection. Each All Star team has 9 players on the roster. If one of the players that was chosen in the fan voting decided not to go and that player was still listed on one of the All Star teams just to show that he was one of those chosen by the fans, then whichever team he's on would have 10 players listed so that they would still have 9 available for the game. Otherwise 1 team would only have 8 actual players. That makes me think that I'm correct when I stated the reason that Jake Schwarz is on the All Star team. We'll know for sure on Saturday I guess. ;)   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 19, 2013, 06:38:41 PM
I discovered that of the 6 players selected to the NABC's Midwest District 1st Team the only player that is playing in the All Star game is Jake Schwarz. Normally 2 senior players are selected from the 1st team of each of the 8 regions and then there are 2 players chosen by the fan voting. That gives us the 18 players, divided into 2  nine player teams.

In the Midwest Region two of the six players are on North Central and since they are still alive in the NCAA tournament they can't play in the All Star game. Two other players on the 1st Team are juniors and can't play in the game for that reason. That only leaves Jake Schwarz and Taylor Koth from Ripon as the two senior 1st team players available from the Midwest region. Koth apparently chose not to make the trip (I'm guessing here) because he's not on the All Star teams. The other player from the Midwest who is playing in the All Star game is Ethan Spurlin from Translyvania, who interestingly, was not a 1st or 2nd team NABC selection. Spurlin was a D3hoops All Midwest Region 3rd team this year and was selected for a number of honors last year as well. He's a good choice to round out the All Star teams.

So it would appear that Jake Schwarz is on the All Star team for the reason I mentioned in my first post in answer to the Greek's question. He isn't replacing a fan voted player. 8-) I guess I didn't misunderstand you after all Greek! ;D     
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 06:42:10 PM
I am not saying the fan voted players aren't making the trip... I am saying the NABC has two guys from the East Region they have selected... so Jake Schwartz's opportunity is put up for a vote and he doesn't get in. However, the players in his region ahead of him or else where decide they can't make the trip, so Schwartz is added to the group. I also know with the number of teams in Salem and the decision NOT to reserve places for players on these teams as in years past for the final four... so they may have had to fill in some spots.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 19, 2013, 08:23:03 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 06:42:10 PM
I am not saying the fan voted players aren't making the trip... I am saying the NABC has two guys from the East Region they have selected... so Jake Schwartz's opportunity is put up for a vote and he doesn't get in. However, the players in his region ahead of him or else where decide they can't make the trip, so Schwartz is added to the group. I also know with the number of teams in Salem and the decision NOT to reserve places for players on these teams as in years past for the final four... so they may have had to fill in some spots.

Dave,
Not sure what you saying about 2 guys from the East region. How does the East region come into play with the Midwest region? And  what I'm saying is Jake Schwarz didn't replace anybody for any reason. He was selected as one of only 2 seniors from the Midwest District 1st team. Nobody from his region or elsewhere could possibly be ahead of him according to the selection process the NABC has chosen to follow. I think it's pretty cut and dried.

I also believe that 2 years ago or last year the decision was made not to add players to the All Star rosters from the losing teams that were at Salem. That isn't something that's being done this year for the first time.

This statement sure sounded like you thought he might be replacing a fan voted player who chose not to make the trip. Especially the bolded part ;D Notice I wrote you said... might be replacing... not that you said.. would be replacing. 

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
There is a good chance that of the two players selected ahead of him to play... one or both decided not to make the trip. So instead of being on the outside looking in after the fan vote, he is playing since he was the next in line.

I believe when you posted that, in reply to the Greek's question, you were throwing that out there as an option and I understand that it could have been the reason that Schwarz was on the team. However I believe the facts support what I  mentioned for his selection as the correct reason that he's on the All Star team. That's all I'm saying.     
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 19, 2013, 08:35:54 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 19, 2013, 08:23:03 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 06:42:10 PM
I am not saying the fan voted players aren't making the trip... I am saying the NABC has two guys from the East Region they have selected... so Jake Schwartz's opportunity is put up for a vote and he doesn't get in. However, the players in his region ahead of him or else where decide they can't make the trip, so Schwartz is added to the group. I also know with the number of teams in Salem and the decision NOT to reserve places for players on these teams as in years past for the final four... so they may have had to fill in some spots.

Dave,
Not sure what you saying about 2 guys from the East region. How does the East region come into play with the Midwest region? And  what I'm saying is Jake Schwarz didn't replace anybody for any reason. He was selected as one of only 2 seniors from the Midwest District 1st team. Nobody from his region or elsewhere could possibly be ahead of him according to the selection process the NABC has chosen to follow. I think it's pretty cut and dried.

I also believe that 2 years ago or last year the decision was made not to add players to the All Star rosters from the losing teams that were at Salem. That isn't something that's being done this year for the first time.

This statement sure sounded like you thought he might be replacing a fan voted player who chose not to make the trip. Especially the bolded part ;D Notice I wrote you said... might be replacing... not that you said.. would be replacing. 

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
There is a good chance that of the two players selected ahead of him to play... one or both decided not to make the trip. So instead of being on the outside looking in after the fan vote, he is playing since he was the next in line.

I believe when you posted that, in reply to the Greek's question, you were throwing that out there as an option and I understand that it could have been the reason that Schwarz was on the team. However I believe the facts support what I  mentioned for his selection as the correct reason that he's on the All Star team. That's all I'm saying.     

No offense, magicman, but Schwarz would never have been in the voting if he were in the top two. What is far more likely is that when North Central won on Saturday, Derek Raridon became unavailable to play in the game, making Schwarz the next choice.

Raridon, Koth and Schwarz were all seniors on the NABC team, as was Mark Lessen.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 19, 2013, 09:29:04 PM
Pat,

I stated in an earlier post that  of the six players on the NABC 1st team from the Midwest Region 4 of them couldn't be in the All Star game. Raridon and Gamble were on North Central and still playing in the tournament. I stated that 2 other players on the 1st team were juniors. That only left 2 seniors Schwarz and Koth but only one of them, Schwarz, was on the team. I went to the D3hoops team page for Eureka to check on Mark Lesson and the link to their website brought up a crazy looking page that I have now found is outdated. (You need to change that link) I brought up an article from that page that stated Lesson was a junior but didn't realize the article was from last year. So there were 3 seniors that could have played in the All Star game but only Schwarz is on the team.  I realize that if Raridon and Gamble were not still playing that one of them, Raridon I'm sure, (maybe both) would have been selected for the All Star game and possibly Schwarz wouldn't be playing.

Here's the link for the Eureka website that you should substitute for the one you have:

http://eurekareddevils.com/index.aspx?path=mbball&tab=basketball(m)   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 19, 2013, 09:36:17 PM
Magicman,

Gamble is a junior, not a senior. Might need to recheck your calculations. The seniors are as I listed them in my post: Raridon, Koth, Schwarz and Lessen.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 20, 2013, 02:24:42 AM
I never checked on Gamble to see if he was a junior or a senior since he couldn't play in the All Star game it didn't matter what class he was.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SUMMIT!!!!! on March 20, 2013, 02:08:48 PM
making my first hoops trip to Salem, and first where I will have some down time. Any recommendations on non-chain eateries?anything worth checking out as far as sightseeing?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 20, 2013, 02:19:32 PM
Eateries - plenty of a great places.

In Salem, Mac and Bob's is a must go: http://www.macandbobs.com/ (http://www.macandbobs.com/)
In Roanoke, Awful Arthur's is good, Corned Beef and Company is a cool place of different kinds of food depending on where you are in the place - almost everywhere I have gone in downtown Roanoke (all within a few blocks of each other) are terrific.

Hoopsville will be at the Pine Room inside Hotel Roanoke tomorrow night, if you want to try a quaint hotel bar.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 20, 2013, 04:33:08 PM
Quote from: miacmaniac on March 20, 2013, 02:08:48 PM
making my first hoops trip to Salem, and first where I will have some down time. Any recommendations on non-chain eateries?anything worth checking out as far as sightseeing?

Also a great Cajun place down the road from Awful Arthur's in Roanoke. Out by the airport you'll have lots of the chain places, so you'd need to come downtown to find something more local.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SUMMIT!!!!! on March 20, 2013, 05:11:54 PM
thanks...any word on Mama Maria's? or El Cubanito? aslso Blue Apron?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 20, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
I haven't been to any of those, but if they are in downtown Roanoke, they tend to be good. Great place to hang out, have some drinks and food.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on March 20, 2013, 06:20:24 PM
I think Keith McMillian and I ate at Mama Maria's a couple years ago before the Stagg Bowl.  I had a rabbit dinner that was really tasty.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SUMMIT!!!!! on March 20, 2013, 10:03:41 PM
thanks guys. Im staying in Salem, the ticket lady at the Civic Center recommended Mama Marias and the Cuban place
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 21, 2013, 07:35:47 PM
After all the hoopla on these boards discussing the merits of the Pool C candidates, and even the annual "Let's see if we can predict the bracket" bracket, the board suddenly goes deafeningly silent with the actual Elite Eight right around the corner.  It's as if the main focus here isn't the basketball itself, and what looks to be a really interesting tournament, but rather who was able to out-reason each other on choosing the 62 participants.  And with that part over, are the lights now out? 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 21, 2013, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 21, 2013, 07:35:47 PM
After all the hoopla on these boards discussing the merits of the Pool C candidates, and even the annual "Let's see if we can predict the bracket" bracket, the board suddenly goes deafeningly silent with the actual Elite Eight right around the corner.  It's as if the main focus here isn't the basketball itself, and what looks to be a really interesting tournament, but rather who was able to out-reason each other on choosing the 62 participants.  And with that part over, are the lights now out?

There's about 8-12 of us who are here all the time.  Most of the rest of the posters become eerily silent once their teams are out.  This is pretty normal.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 21, 2013, 08:17:50 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2013, 07:55:55 PM
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 21, 2013, 07:35:47 PM
After all the hoopla on these boards discussing the merits of the Pool C candidates, and even the annual "Let's see if we can predict the bracket" bracket, the board suddenly goes deafeningly silent with the actual Elite Eight right around the corner.  It's as if the main focus here isn't the basketball itself, and what looks to be a really interesting tournament, but rather who was able to out-reason each other on choosing the 62 participants.  And with that part over, are the lights now out?

There's about 8-12 of us who are here all the time.  Most of the rest of the posters become eerily silent once their teams are out.  This is pretty normal.
That's because the tourney should be over now and everyone has hit the wall because we don't have the stamina for this longer season
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 21, 2013, 08:56:03 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 21, 2013, 08:17:50 PM
That's because the tourney should be over now and everyone has hit the wall because we don't have the stamina for this longer season

You gotta pace yourself.  Cut out the long nights agonizing about whether or not So-and-So Tech will make the tourney, get to host, or have to travel 489 miles on dirt roads to play at Mary Jane State. :)

At any rate, I'm looking forward to watching two or three of the games tomorrow.  I like this Elite Eight (DII does it every year) and wish some consideration would be given to making it permanent.  Maybe opening round single games, then four-team pods, then the Elite Eight, but finished off in Salem.  Or vice versa on the early rounds.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 22, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Personally, I like the D-II format. 8-team regionals on Friday-Saturday-Monday, leading to an 8-team final the following week.

I do acknowledge that the MAJOR drawback is only eight teams in the country get to host, and often the top-seeded team may not have a facility capable of hosting an 8-team tournament. That's probably a big enough reason for me to ultimately vote against it, but as a concept I like it.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njf1003 on March 22, 2013, 11:21:43 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on March 22, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Personally, I like the D-II format. 8-team regionals on Friday-Saturday-Monday, leading to an 8-team final the following week.

I do acknowledge that the MAJOR drawback is only eight teams in the country get to host, and often the top-seeded team may not have a facility capable of hosting an 8-team tournament. That's probably a big enough reason for me to ultimately vote against it, but as a concept I like it.

I don't like the D2 format in that the regionals often end up being conferences beat up on each other for the 3rd/4th/5th time so the opponents all know each other well.
I like the D3 design of the bracket in avoiding rematches as long as possible!
I also agree that few D3 teams would have facilities to host. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 12:18:24 PM
Is anybody else having trouble getting the game online?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: njf1003 on March 22, 2013, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 12:18:24 PM
Is anybody else having trouble getting the game online?
I have it here fine.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 12:21:00 PM
Never mnid. I went straight to the ncaa.com site to get on.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 22, 2013, 12:39:26 PM
I'm having no problems outside of occasional short buffering.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2013, 12:53:48 PM
NCAA changed that link twice today. Here's the final version:
http://www.ncaa.com/championship/liveplayer/player?gameId=291615?ncaa_mid=gamecenter:williams-st-thomas-mn:mml
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 01:01:07 PM

I think the broadcast is really well done.  They're doing a great job with it.  I would appreciate some replays (they were able to manage it at St. Mary's), but over all a quality production.

I especially appreciate that they don't seem to have told the announcers when they were coming back from commercial, so we were treated to a dig on the intelligence of Williams football players, which was pretty funny.

Great game so far.  Williams really taking it to St. Thomas.  Looking forward to a great day.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 01:33:05 PM

Looks like they've got the replay working for the second half - and presumably the rest of the day.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 22, 2013, 01:33:25 PM
Commercials are being run by the home entity, so the crew here doesn't know when they are running. However, they probably should kill their mics during the timeouts :).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 02:02:34 PM

St. Thomas defends two Williams chances to tie the game in the last nine seconds  - wins 82-79.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 02:41:01 PM

Pat very visible typing away behind the St. Mary's bench.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 22, 2013, 02:50:43 PM
St. Thomas was fortunate, that final minute was atrocious.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 03:20:14 PM
I'm with HF. I think that the production today is really solid.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 04:17:31 PM

LaGuerre misses a pretty good look at the buzzer, MHB wins 69-66.

Bad year for me to get off their bandwagon.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 22, 2013, 04:19:00 PM
St Mary's loses to Mary Hardin-Baylor  69-66 in another barnburner. 2 great games so far today. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
Congrats to UMHB ... and congrats to Ralph Turner! This will be the first time ever that an ASC squad, or any team from Texas, for that matter, has made it to the Final Four.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 04:20:41 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 22, 2013, 04:19:00 PM
St Mary's loses to Mary Hardin-Baylor  69-66 in another barnburner. 2 great games so far today.

Yep. Small crowd in Salem thus far, but they're getting their money's worth.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on March 22, 2013, 04:52:31 PM
 UMHB chooses defend rather than foul in final seconds; survives despite a great look by St. Mary's
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2013, 04:53:00 PM
Thanks, GS!  I had to work all afternoon and did not get to see the game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 22, 2013, 06:37:30 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 04:20:41 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 22, 2013, 04:19:00 PM
St Mary's loses to Mary Hardin-Baylor  69-66 in another barnburner. 2 great games so far today.

Yep. Small crowd in Salem thus far, but they're getting their money's worth.

Thats too bad. A chance to see SEVEN games in two days is hard to pass up. I was considering coming even with no WIAC team in the Elite 8, but alas, kitchen and bathroom renovations are needed.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 07:45:50 PM

After the statement I made about Cabrini's fearlessness, they (outside of Walton-Moss and Rafferty) really seemed scared in the first half against Amherst.  It cost them.  Once you're down to a team like Amherst, it's tough to come back.  Valiant effort in the second half, though, but Amherst is looking like a juggernaut.  I'd really like to see how they match up against North Central.

This should be a great Final Four.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2013, 08:09:48 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 22, 2013, 07:45:50 PM

After the statement I made about Cabrini's fearlessness, they (outside of Walton-Moss and Rafferty) really seemed scared in the first half against Amherst.  It cost them.  Once you're down to a team like Amherst, it's tough to come back.  Valiant effort in the second half, though, but Amherst is looking like a juggernaut. I'd really like to see how they match up against North Central.

This should be a great Final Four.

Yes, go NCC! 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2013, 09:02:39 PM
At the half, NCC 40, Midd 37.  Vince Kmiec on fire with 17 points.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: cciwrabblerouser on March 22, 2013, 09:39:39 PM
i'll be very curious to get the attendance numbers in salem.  i'm not sure this 75th anniversary change-up has been good for the teams or the fans.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 22, 2013, 09:45:03 PM
Williams/St. Thomas  1334
http://athletics.williams.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/files/stthomas.htm

St. Mary's/MHB  1470
http://www.smcmathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2012-13/boxscores/20130322_pdwf.xml

Cabrini/Amherst  1505
https://www3.amherst.edu/~sports/current/m-bball/mb12-30.htm


These numbers are fairly suspicious to me.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 22, 2013, 09:47:47 PM
I've been watching these in and out all day, North Central is easily the best defensive team among these 8 teams.

I couldn't believe how much space St. Thomas and Williams gave each other.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 22, 2013, 09:51:45 PM
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2013, 09:45:03 PM
Williams/St. Thomas  1334
http://athletics.williams.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/files/stthomas.htm

St. Mary's/MHB  1470
http://www.smcmathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2012-13/boxscores/20130322_pdwf.xml

Cabrini/Amherst  1505
https://www3.amherst.edu/~sports/current/m-bball/mb12-30.htm


These numbers are fairly suspicious to me.

Salem doesn't tend to cook the books... but it is more of a paid attendance than at the gate.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 22, 2013, 09:54:41 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 22, 2013, 09:51:45 PM
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2013, 09:45:03 PM
Williams/St. Thomas  1334
http://athletics.williams.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/files/stthomas.htm

St. Mary's/MHB  1470
http://www.smcmathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2012-13/boxscores/20130322_pdwf.xml

Cabrini/Amherst  1505
https://www3.amherst.edu/~sports/current/m-bball/mb12-30.htm


These numbers are fairly suspicious to me.

Salem doesn't tend to cook the books... but it is more of a paid attendance than at the gate.

I realize its a big place and the cameras haven't panned to the one side of the arena all day but its never looked like that many people were in there at any one time today.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 10:03:19 PM

NCC 77 Middlebury 65.  Quick start for Midd, but they got worn down in the end.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on March 22, 2013, 10:08:10 PM
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2013, 09:45:03 PM
Williams/St. Thomas  1334
http://athletics.williams.edu/sports/mbkb/2012-13/files/stthomas.htm

St. Mary's/MHB  1470
http://www.smcmathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2012-13/boxscores/20130322_pdwf.xml

Cabrini/Amherst  1505
https://www3.amherst.edu/~sports/current/m-bball/mb12-30.htm


These numbers are fairly suspicious to me.

Those numbers can't be right...the crowds were awful all day (even more awful than those numbers).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 22, 2013, 10:14:48 PM

It would make sense if those are paid attendance numbers, that they're rising with each game.  Perhaps some schools didn't return their unsold allotment?  Maybe a whole heap of people were planning to only come Saturday?  I have no idea.

We couldn't see one side of the court on the footage, but it didn't look like there were many people there at all.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 22, 2013, 10:15:50 PM
I think its just difficult for people to commit both time and money to making two long trips within two weeks.

I doubt I could have a trip to both Salem and Atlanta. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on March 22, 2013, 10:20:36 PM
It looked so empty in there it was kind of embarrassing as a D3 fan.  I'm on record as being a huge Salem fan, and I think that staff does an amazing job, but it might be time to find a new venue. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 10:24:22 PM
Bob, I'm not so sure it's Salem's fault as much as it may be the fault of the odd format. I think that sac has a point; a lot of fans might've been sitting on their hands in terms of setting aside this weekend for a long road trip when the whole point is that they might have to -- get to, actually -- make two such road trips on consecutive weekends.

And I say that as someone who's never been all that convinced that Salem is an ideal location. I just think that this is an anomalous year, and that it's hard to compare it to other years.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on March 22, 2013, 10:53:04 PM
Being a first time watcher, I was a bit surprised at how empty it was. I was at the Idaho state championships the past two years watching the nephew and there was at least 2-3K at every game and 8k for the finals.  I realize this wasn't the finals but I figured you'd get more than 1500 for the games when there is 8 teams there.

As for the location, I can't speak to the experience at all but as a fan in Sacramento it would have cost me $1200 and 9 hours to get there.  18 hours of travel for 1 guaranteed game was a bit too much to bite off. Would be nice if it was a bit more accessible a location for folks flying in from the West.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: madzillagd on March 22, 2013, 10:53:04 PMWould be nice if it was a bit more accessible a location for folks flying in from the West.

No offense, but a lot of us have been arguing for years that the geographic locales to which they should be catering are the midwest and the northeast. That's where the two largest clumps of D3 schools are located. Somewhere in western Pennsylvania or northern Ohio would be ideal. Any decent-sized (but not too big) venue, really, located between Erie and Toledo.

Put a Final Four in a town like that, and it's within driving distance for the vast majority of D3 fans.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on March 22, 2013, 11:11:33 PM
My point was that it would be nice if it was a short distance from a major airport, regardless of where it is in the country.  From where I was coming - to go on Southwest (the cheapest) would have taken 2 layovers and the closest airport was 180 miles away - so a 3 hour drive once I landed.  Or I could fly on Delta/United/etc. and get to Roanoke after 2 layovers and at the cheapest $1200.  Stick it near a major airport in the Midwest or NE and it cuts the travel time in half and the cost in half. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 22, 2013, 11:12:22 PM
Why, Greg, Wooster would be glad to host! :)

Another thing about the numbers today in Salem; the broadcasters made mention of the fact that they did not clear the gym, even between games two and three.  So, there is at least some overlap in the numbers; even if they're not cooked, a fair amount of people are being counted twice, or more.

When I was down there two years ago, the crowds were pretty good, much larger than what they appeared to be today.  Pretty disappointing.  I thought they'd do well with eight teams going to Salem, and actually wondered if they could handle the numbers.  Turns out that even at Wooster they wouldn't have half filled the joint.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 11:25:07 PM
I think that at some point a few years ago in one of these Multi-Regional Topics rooms we actually studied all of the potential available arenas in northeastern Ohio. The proximity to Cleveland Hopkins Int'l Airport would be a nice bonus for the likes of madzilla and, in this year's case, Texas-based fans of the Cru.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: John Gleich on March 23, 2013, 12:01:39 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: madzillagd on March 22, 2013, 10:53:04 PMWould be nice if it was a bit more accessible a location for folks flying in from the West.

No offense, but a lot of us have been arguing for years that the geographic locales to which they should be catering are the midwest and the northeast. That's where the two largest clumps of D3 schools are located. Somewhere in western Pennsylvania or northern Ohio would be ideal. Any decent-sized (but not too big) venue, really, located between Erie and Toledo.

Put a Final Four in a town like that, and it's within driving distance for the vast majority of D3 fans.

It also doesn't help that there were ZERO ODAC schools in the Elite 8. That could have bumped up the whole conference's interest... and the overall attendance.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2013, 01:37:16 AM
Quote from: Titan Q on March 22, 2013, 10:20:36 PM
It looked so empty in there it was kind of embarrassing as a D3 fan.  I'm on record as being a huge Salem fan, and I think that staff does an amazing job, but it might be time to find a new venue.

Bob - I really don't think this anything to do with Salem... it has EVERYTHING to do with a drawn out schedule and an odd format. In fact, the NCAA and others have been so impressed with how this is going in general (not necessarily attendance) that there are serious talks about looking at an Elite 8 Weekend with a champion at the end.

However, I am in NO way surprised by the attendance for the same reasons stated: when two of these teams head on to Atlanta... people want to set aside their financial committeemen to that endeavor.

If anything, this weekend may have cemented Salem being D3 men's basketball's home because they have made this event seem seamless and easy.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2013, 01:48:50 AM
Attendance is paid attendance. 1,629 people paid for tickets to today's session. Nobody said they were all here at the same time. Clearly they weren't.

Agreed that the attendance never looked good, but taking fewer people and spreading them over four games and 10 hours isn't likely to look as good as two games and four hours.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 23, 2013, 02:27:02 AM
Pat or Dave, has any other city/conference put in a seriously considered bid lately?  I can't guarantee that a final four in the Twin Cities, Chicago or Boston would be a whole lot better, but it would be fun to at least try another site every twenty years.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: cciwrabblerouser on March 23, 2013, 08:32:50 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2013, 10:24:22 PM
Bob, I'm not so sure it's Salem's fault as much as it may be the fault of the odd format. I think that sac has a point; a lot of fans might've been sitting on their hands in terms of setting aside this weekend for a long road trip when the whole point is that they might have to -- get to, actually -- make two such road trips on consecutive weekends.

And I say that as someone who's never been all that convinced that Salem is an ideal location. I just think that this is an anomalous year, and that it's hard to compare it to other years.

i was going to say the exact same thing, but mr. sager beat me to it.  the format does not lend itself to big crowds in salem.  that's why i wondered out loud if going this direction was a good idea or not.

the posted attendance figures may very well have been tickets sold, but too many of those people came disguised as empty seats.  and to send eight teams to salem for anything less than the national championship just make sense when all of yesterday's game would normally be played at on-campus sites, in front of packed houses filled with rowdy and passionate fans.

well, hopefully this one-year experience will be thoroughly evaluated before the powers-that-be decide to do something like this again.

as for locations -- may i suggest columbus or pittsburgh.  one advantage of heading to salem is that the weather is less likely to be nasty in central virginia that it is further north...and certainly cleveland or anywhere close to lake erie could have disastrous results.  that's a tough question -- and i don't blame the good people of salem for the poor turn-out.  they are NOT hosting the national championship this year!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 23, 2013, 09:46:31 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2013, 01:48:50 AM
Attendance is paid attendance. 1,629 people paid for tickets to today's session. Nobody said they were all here at the same time. Clearly they weren't.

Agreed that the attendance never looked good, but taking fewer people and spreading them over four games and 10 hours isn't likely to look as good as two games and four hours.

1629 paid admissions over the course of the whole day?  That's horrible.

As for Columbus, Ohio, I'd personally love it, and a great unused facility now sits open all winter: St. John's Arena at Ohio State.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2013, 11:02:17 AM
I am not aware of any serious bids. There was scuttlebutt a few years ago that I think a Texas location had put in a bid or was considering it, but I didn't hear more about that and Salem's bid keeps getting renewed with some ease.

No one at Salem and no one else will disagree that location per transportation is no ideal, but that seems to be outweighed by all of the positives Salem brings to the table.

I will not rehash so many things about this conversation, but I will say, Wooster Booster, that St. John's Arena is not the type of place or location the NCAA is going to consider. 5,000 seat facilities are great... anything bigger is overkill... and being on a D1 campus seems a bit backwards.

Finally, I will leave you on this. I have been amazed this weekend how coaches, players and others talk about Salem like Omaha in the D1 baseball tournament. Even though there is no title here, everyone talks about the fact that the goal is always to get to Salem - not the final four or whatever - and that the city, the venue, etc. are the goal at the beginning of the season... and winning in Salem is important... and seeing Salem... playing in Salem... everything is Salem. Just something I wanted to share.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 11:09:43 AM
Not only am I in the minority here, but I'm probably the only one who thinks this...made easier because Stevens Point wasn't in the Elite 8.  I'm not sure how a fan CAN'T attend the Elite 8.  You get SIX games in addition to an all-star game in just TWO days.  I honestly don't understand when I did attend the Final Four, that fans from other teams didn't stick around or come early to watch the other game...even when their team lost.  It's a great opportunity to see some quality basketball. Yeah, they are totally bummed that their team didn't make the Final, but, especially if you are the 2nd game, why not come early?  You drove or fly all that way, get your money's worth.  And this year, with three extra games, it's tough not to attend.

Yes, on the flip side, you are spending money here instead of the possibility of going to the Final and seeing a Championship hoisted.  But when money comes into play, and what I get for that money spent, I'd almost be tempted to go to Salem and see SEVEN games than spend nearly the same amount and see one championship game.  I would also think this way if Stevens Point was in the Elite 8. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 11:17:02 AM
Another thing about the attendance...

What is the history of support for the schools that were in the Elite 8?  Do they travel well?  It seemed when Point went the year Williams and Amherst played each other in the semi-final, Amherst had half the amount of fans Williams did. 

What about MHB, Middlebury and St. Mary's?  How as Cabrini's support last year or when St. Thomas won it the previous year?  I know IWU travels well, but what about NCC?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 23, 2013, 11:59:42 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2013, 11:02:17 AM
I am not aware of any serious bids. There was scuttlebutt a few years ago that I think a Texas location had put in a bid or was considering it, but I didn't hear more about that and Salem's bid keeps getting renewed with some ease.

No one at Salem and no one else will disagree that location per transportation is no ideal, but that seems to be outweighed by all of the positives Salem brings to the table.

I will not rehash so many things about this conversation, but I will say, Wooster Booster, that St. John's Arena is not the type of place or location the NCAA is going to consider. 5,000 seat facilities are great... anything bigger is overkill... and being on a D1 campus seems a bit backwards.

Finally, I will leave you on this. I have been amazed this weekend how coaches, players and others talk about Salem like Omaha in the D1 baseball tournament. Even though there is no title here, everyone talks about the fact that the goal is always to get to Salem - not the final four or whatever - and that the city, the venue, etc. are the goal at the beginning of the season... and winning in Salem is important... and seeing Salem... playing in Salem... everything is Salem. Just something I wanted to share.

Well, I'll maintain that getting to Salem is the goal at the beginning of the season because that's where the event is, not because there is anything magical about the site.  It's a medium-sized basketball facility; there are lots of them around.  As far as the city, honestly, is there anything special?  Do they do a good job running the event?  Yes.  But with 1,600 fans in attendance, exactly how hard is that to do?

You don't like St. John's because it's too big and on a D1 campus?  Well, for one, it's barely on the campus and who cares if it is?  It's a classic old building that is terrific for smaller events.  Until the building of the Schottenstein Center, it was used for years for the high school state tournaments.  It's still used for OSU volleyball and is perfect for that.  Two or three thousand, four thousand, people fit comfortably in the lower levels with excellent views.  Parking is abundant.  Restaurants and reasonable lodging abound.  I have no idea if OSU would be interested in this, but I was just throwing it out there, and it would be a darned fine site.  It's centered between the east and midwest where most DIII schools reside and much easier to fly into than Salem.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 23, 2013, 12:06:40 PM
I'm opposed to tosu hosting because I'm opposed to tosu being associated with The Division III Student Athlete.

plus, just ick.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on March 23, 2013, 12:22:38 PM
#2 Amherst vs #3 North Central, 7:30pm (Central)...


Amherst (28-2, 10-0 NESCAC, 1st)
G - Aaron Toomey, 6-1/170 Jr - 17.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 5.1 apg, 2.5 A/TO
G - Tom Killian, 6-4/180 Jr - 7.3 ppg, 4.1 rpg
F - Willy Workman, 6-6/195 Sr - 12.4 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 4.0 apg
F - Allen Wiliamson, 6-4/201 Sr - 11.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg
C - Peter Kaasila, 6-9/260 Sr - 13.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg

G - David Kalema, 6-0/170 Jr - 9.2 ppg, 2.7 rpg
F - Ben Pollack, 6-7/225 Fr -  4.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg
G - Connor Green, 6-4/195 Fr - 9.1 ppg, 3.1 rpg


North Central (28-3, 11-3 CCIW, 2nd)
G - Pat Rourke, 6-3/155 Jr - 3.4 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.8 A/TO
G - Vince Kmiec, 6-4/185 Jr - 11.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.7 apg
F - Derek Raridon, 6-6/190 Sr - 14.4 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.6 apg
F - Aaron Tiknis, 6-6/200 Sr - 9.6 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 3.4 apg
C - Landon Gamble, 6-6/240 Jr - 14.3ppg, 5.8 rpg

F - Jack Burchett, 6-6/205 So - 5.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg
F - Charlie Rosenberg, 6-5/230 Jr - 4.7 ppg, 2.4 rpg
G - Brandon Williams, 6-1/170 Jr - 3.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.6 apg
G - Jack Merrithey, 5-9/145 So - 3.1 ppg


Tournament roads...

Amherst
Round 1 - bye
Round 2 - Plattsburgh St, 89-67
Round 3 - Randolph-Macon, 93-76
Round 4 - Cabrini, 101-82

North Central
Round 1 - Centre, 66-50
Round 2 - #5 UW-Whitewater, 64-60
Round 3 - #10 Illinois Wesleyan, 83-73
Round 4 - #7 Middlebury, 77-65


Massey ratings: North Central #2, Amherst #5
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on March 23, 2013, 12:25:21 PM
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 23, 2013, 11:59:42 AM
Well, I'll maintain that getting to Salem is the goal at the beginning of the season because that's where the event is, not because there is anything magical about the site.

Right.  Salem has a brand that has been developed over the course of 17 years.  If the venue changed, the new location would build up a brand over time and people would talk about getting to that place the same way.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on March 23, 2013, 01:17:29 PM
Lack of popularity means failure only when popularity is the goal.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 23, 2013, 02:37:12 PM
Salem does not have a great brand for D3 basketball.  I'm sure they do a good job, but clearly, there are very few fans who know about it.  I bet if you took a poll of all the d3 players in the nation the vast majority would have no idea the final four takes place in Salem.  The game isn't on tv, and with a lot of repeat teams playing in it every year, most players won't have played against a final four team during their time in college.

If you do everything right, but you have a bad location, the student-athlete experience will suffer.  They want to see their friends, family and fans there.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: old_hooper on March 23, 2013, 03:10:32 PM
I am sure it has been said before that if it were in a more neutral location for people.  Been to Salem different times coming from the west coast and it is extremely difficult to get there, not to mention expense.  Some place close to Chicago or Ohio would make more sense.  Salem does a terrific job but it might be time to seriously consider a different venue.  Unfortunately regardless of where it is, this is not about money it will bring to any town or city because it is not that significant.  If it were in a location like Chicago or say Columbus, you have major airports and it is well within driving distance for many DIII schools and fans.  I am sure there are a number of venues that would meet the criteria to have a two day event to accommodate 3000 fans.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 03:31:12 PM
Quote from: AO on March 23, 2013, 02:37:12 PM
Salem does not have a great brand for D3 basketball.  I'm sure they do a good job, but clearly, there are very few fans who know about it.  I bet if you took a poll of all the d3 players in the nation the vast majority would have no idea the final four takes place in Salem.  The game isn't on tv, and with a lot of repeat teams playing in it every year, most players won't have played against a final four team during their time in college.

If you do everything right, but you have a bad location, the student-athlete experience will suffer.  They want to see their friends, family and fans there.

I could be completely wrong, but I totally disagree with this.  I'm not saying Salem should be the place for the Final Four, but I think to have a designated place is something to have, whether it be Salem or in the middle of Ohio.  I remember when Stevens Point was in the NAIA, it was cool to go down to Kansas City for the tournament.  That was the ultimate goal, Kansas City...just like the ultimate goal for D3 is Salem. 

Quote from: old_hooper on March 23, 2013, 03:10:32 PM
I am sure it has been said before that if it were in a more neutral location for people.  Been to Salem different times coming from the west coast and it is extremely difficult to get there, not to mention expense.  Some place close to Chicago or Ohio would make more sense.  Salem does a terrific job but it might be time to seriously consider a different venue.  Unfortunately regardless of where it is, this is not about money it will bring to any town or city because it is not that significant.  If it were in a location like Chicago or say Columbus, you have major airports and it is well within driving distance for many DIII schools and fans.  I am sure there are a number of venues that would meet the criteria to have a two day event to accommodate 3000 fans.

I have to disagree with this too! If you have 3000 fans come to say, Oshkosh's Kolf gym (5,000 capacity), it would be significant.  With the monies from hotels, eating out etc, it would help the community.  Sure, if it's Chicago, Columbus or a bigger city, I don't think it makes much of a difference. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 23, 2013, 04:27:39 PM

The money issue is why it isn't held in a larger city.  The d3 championships might not make waves in Philadelphia, but in Salem, VA this is a pretty big boost to local hotels and restaurants.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2013, 05:38:27 PM
Hotel prices in Salem are also significantly less expensive than in the big cities... we can talk round and round about this as we always do... but one thing is for sure... the attendance is not high on the list for determining factors when choosing Salem.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
The scoreboard page does not have a live stats link to the games. Is there one?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 23, 2013, 05:58:10 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2013, 05:38:27 PM
...but one thing is for sure... the attendance is not high on the list for determining factors when choosing Salem.

Well, I don't understand why it isn't.  I mean, there are dozens of possible sites that could equal or surpass Salem in anything else that they could possibly provide, and in the same breath would offer easier accessibility.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 23, 2013, 06:29:33 PM
This is very simple... someone or some group has to come up with a bid and present it to the NCAA. If that bid is worthy of surplanting Salem even for just one two-year opportunity, I am sure the NCAA will offer it to them. However, we can talk and talk and talk about locations that could be good for all kinds of reasons, but until someone steps up and presents a bid that is worthy of consideration, we are not leaving Salem.

For example, I think the Van Noord Arena at Calvin would be a very worthy location, though transportation to Grand Rapids isn't ideal... but it isn't bad. However, I know that Calvin is not in a situation to bid on such an event from a manpower scenario. So while I think it would be neat to have the games there and think they have some positives... they aren't going to bid so the point is moot in that case.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 06:50:32 PM
Is Orr hurt? 0-1 fgs. and thats it!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: crufootball on March 23, 2013, 06:57:22 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 06:50:32 PM
Is Orr hurt? 0-1 fgs. and thats it!

Hurt by 2 pretty quick fouls and Coach DeWeese appears to be saving him for the 2nd half.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 07:15:39 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 23, 2013, 08:02:08 PM
UMHB 74,
St Thomas 67.

Way to go CRU!

Congratulations!

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on March 23, 2013, 08:05:08 PM
Great win UMHB, congrats.  Didn't let the first half foul trouble sink them and the freshman kept them in it. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 23, 2013, 08:07:39 PM

Well, I was pimping this team four years ago - it finally paid off.  Really great game.  I can't believe there's another one coming up.  Great day of basketball.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 23, 2013, 08:11:32 PM
Gary Stewart (on Hoopsville) is right about the officiating.

Calls are looser in the ASC.  The CRU adapted well.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 23, 2013, 08:24:05 PM

So with both the d2 and d3 championships in the same place at the same time, can the two winners stick around for a head-to-head matchup?  You know, just for fun?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: kiko on March 23, 2013, 08:30:02 PM
On the question of the tournament location, I'll point to what I wrote last fall:

Quote from: kiko on August 03, 2012, 10:50:16 PM
The ideal location would have magnificent volunteers who understand what the D3 experience is all about, a beautiful facility, lots to do outside of the games, a high demand for tickets irrespective of which teams qualified (MSP would not draw those mythical 5,000 fans if Puget Sound and Amherst followed Trinity and Wittenberg on the Final Four dance card), easy and relatively inexpensive air access for out-of-town fans, relatively close proximity to many schools in the core D3 geographic footprint, and high levels of local media interest.  And probably other stuff as well.  Oh, and to put a cherry on top, let's also say they have to be able to deliver this for both football and basketball because there is something intangibly nice that the promised land be the same place for both sports.

Salem delivers very well on some of these and not so well on others.  But I don't imagine that any locale would deliver all of these dimensions.  The question becomes how you (er, the NCAA) prioritize the tradeoffs among each of these variables.  It would seem to me that 3,000 is pretty much the ceiling we can expect for attendance absent a local (immediate vicinity) team, and you can't bank on their being one of these in the field.  Other places might muster the volunteer support, but I take those who have experienced Salem first-hand at their word that it would be hard to improve upon what Salem has to offer here.

I don't know that any other venue is going to offer better media coverage than the status quo -- the local paper provides decent coverage, and probably more column inches than you'd get out of someplace big enough to support a AAA or major league baseball team.  I'm not sure what other local media you'd find in another location that is either not present or ignoring the tourney in Salem.  ESPN / other cable properties aren't staying away because of the location, and any city big enough to have more local media outlets to provide coverage almost assuredly has bigger things to cover.

One additional thought -- I like that the tournament returns to the same location every year.  For my money, the idea that a single point on the map -- be it the Rose Bowl, the Peoria Civic Center for HS basketball, Williamsport, Salem, etc. -- becomes the focus and the goal year-in and year-out is something that fosters a strong tradition and sense of culture moreso than something that moves around and becomes a different experience each year.

Two other thoughts:

(1) I don't think it is realistic to expect big attendance from the afternoon session on a weekday.  If this were D1 and therefore there was greater interest, maybe.  But not for something as narrow in its general appeal as D3.

(2) One thing that has not been mentioned that relates to the 'paying for two road trips in three weekends' aspect of this year's tourney is that hotel prices for Atlanta will be crazy high due to the demand of fans for the D1 tournament.  We're actually a little fortunate in that our teams will learn that they have Destination ATL in their future one week before fans of the D1 final four teams do (they will find out that they are going to Atlanta only after next weekend's games).  So we will get a jump on securing access to any available rooms, but even with this, a lot of the inventory will be snapped up already, and whatever is still available will be priced at a significant premium.  So two road trips is tough, and the second road trip will be a fairly hefty investment.

On the question of The Ohio State University hosting the tourney, they would have zero interest in a D3 event.  If this venue were used, it would be because the OAC were hosting and the OAC rented their facility.  Personally, even if the arena were a more appropriate size, I think it is a terrible idea.  It's our event -- I have no interest in there being any D1 affiliation with the D3 tournament.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 23, 2013, 09:50:34 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 23, 2013, 08:24:05 PM

So with both the d2 and d3 championships in the same place at the same time, can the two winners stick around for a head-to-head matchup?  You know, just for fun?

D2's down to its final 8, 7 #1 seeds and a #2 seed from their 8 Regions.  Tight!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 23, 2013, 10:37:46 PM
As Dave McHugh noted on Hoopsville, the two teams going to Atlanta got the first round byes!

;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 23, 2013, 10:41:29 PM

Is it just me or did it seem like Amherst could have put this one away much earlier if they hadn't thrown away half their possessions on quick, ill-advised threes?  Talent overcomes a lack of discipline in this one.

Also, according to live stats, Toomey didn't have a single assist in this game.  I wonder what the pre-game odds on that one would have been?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 23, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
Purple Power isn't content to just be in football... three of the Final Four and both in the championship game don purple.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: John Gleich on March 24, 2013, 06:50:01 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 23, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
Purple Power isn't content to just be in football... three of the Final Four and both in the championship game don purple.

It's more than just that... The last three champions (Whitewater, St. Thomas, and Stevens Point) wear purple. In fact, in the last 10 year, only Wash U (Christmas colors) and Virginia Wesleyan) haven't worn purple. And this year, the champ will continue the streak of amazingness.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 24, 2013, 07:43:50 PM
Quote from: John Gleich on March 24, 2013, 06:50:01 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 23, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
Purple Power isn't content to just be in football... three of the Final Four and both in the championship game don purple.

It's more than just that... The last three champions (Whitewater, St. Thomas, and Stevens Point) wear purple. In fact, in the last 10 year, only Wash U (Christmas colors) and Virginia Wesleyan) haven't worn purple. And this year, the champ will continue the streak of amazingness.

You guys just couldn't keep this under your hats.  Word is now out that Wabash, Allegheny, Ohio Wesleyan, and Denison have changed their school colors.  Those good people at Wittenberg will likely catch on by the end of the decade.  Wooster is doomed.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on March 24, 2013, 07:57:00 PM
 And it's the 30th anniversary of the PURPLE Royals of Scranton winning the national championship; hopefully, we'll be back soon, having beaten 3 of this year's elite 8(Middlebury, North Central, Cabrini) in the last 2 seasons.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2013, 08:19:12 PM
Quote from: John Gleich on March 24, 2013, 06:50:01 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 23, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
Purple Power isn't content to just be in football... three of the Final Four and both in the championship game don purple.

It's more than just that... The last three champions (Whitewater, St. Thomas, and Stevens Point) wear purple. In fact, in the last 10 year, only Wash U (Christmas colors) and Virginia Wesleyan) haven't worn purple. And this year, the champ will continue the streak of amazingness.

The complete and utter purpleness of D3 football at the championship-game level is long-standing, though. For nine straight years the D3 football championship game, the Stagg Bowl, has been an all-purple affair. For seven years it was UWW vs. Mount Union, and then this past year it was UST vs. Mount Union. The irony is that, in the year before the seven years of UWW vs. UMU, that nine-year reign of the color of royalty began when it was doubly repped in the Stagg Bowl, but not by the Warhawks, the Purple Raiders, or the Tommies. It was repped back in the 2004 Stagg Bowl by Linfield and -- wait for it -- Mary Hardin-Baylor.

There's been at least one purple team in every Stagg Bowl held in this millennium. Only twice in the last twenty years (1995 and 1999) has there failed to be a purple team in the Stagg Bowl. The purple Stagg Bowl schools included during that time span are Mount Union, Albion, Linfield, Mary Hardin-Baylor, UW-Whitewater, and St. Thomas. It's an almost-crazy coincidence, since purple is not a very common color among American colleges and universities.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2013, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 24, 2013, 07:57:00 PM
And it's the 30th anniversary of the PURPLE Royals of Scranton winning the national championship; hopefully, we'll be back soon, having beaten 3 of this year's elite 8(Middlebury, North Central, Cabrini) in the last 2 seasons.

The very first D3 men's basketball tournament was won back in 1975 by (now D2) LeMoyne-Owen College, as the Magicians defeated Rowan, 57-54.

Guess which color the Magicians wore, and still wear?

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.commercialappeal.com%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphotos%2F2011%2F11%2F02%2Fmwowens5_t607.jpg&hash=a00a259882c6660b333f709d36edf95450a0e9ae)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on March 24, 2013, 09:20:06 PM
Meanwhile Rick Reilly wrote this past week that a purple team has never won the Division I title. So there's proof that Mount Union and Amherst should move to D1.

(I'm totally kidding...unless it helps Trinity win more basketball games).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2013, 09:23:38 PM
Quote from: AO on March 23, 2013, 02:37:12 PM
Salem does not have a great brand for D3 basketball.  I'm sure they do a good job, but clearly, there are very few fans who know about it.  I bet if you took a poll of all the d3 players in the nation the vast majority would have no idea the final four takes place in Salem.  The game isn't on tv, and with a lot of repeat teams playing in it every year, most players won't have played against a final four team during their time in college.

If you do everything right, but you have a bad location, the student-athlete experience will suffer.  They want to see their friends, family and fans there.

Maybe at Northwestern they don't know but out here in the rest of the world, people do. :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on March 24, 2013, 09:57:58 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2013, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 24, 2013, 07:57:00 PM
And it's the 30th anniversary of the PURPLE Royals of Scranton winning the national championship; hopefully, we'll be back soon, having beaten 3 of this year's elite 8(Middlebury, North Central, Cabrini) in the last 2 seasons.

The very first D3 men's basketball tournament was won back in 1975 by (now D2) LeMoyne-Owen College, as the Magicians defeated Rowan, 57-54.

Guess which color the Magicians wore, and still wear?

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.commercialappeal.com%2Fmedia%2Fimg%2Fphotos%2F2011%2F11%2F02%2Fmwowens5_t607.jpg&hash=a00a259882c6660b333f709d36edf95450a0e9ae)

Well, I might as well add that Scranton won in 76, also; maybe the non-purple championships < 10?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Andy Archibald on March 24, 2013, 11:12:49 PM
Extremely excited about The Cru headed to the National Championship! Booking flights and excited about going to Atlanta. Wish it wasn't two weeks away but we will take it!

GO CRU!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 25, 2013, 04:42:38 AM
Wasn't sure where the best place was to post this, but figured this was as good a spot as any. Also not sure if anyone else posted about this.

Andy Enfield, the coach of the Florida Gulf Coast Eagles, who everyone knows by now is the 1st #15 seed to advance to the Sweet Sixteen in DI, is a graduate of DIII Johns Hopkins University. Not only did he go there, he is the all time leading scorer for the  Blue Jays with over 2000 career points. He holds 16 JHU records and holds the NCAA record for career free throw percentage with a 92.5% mark over 4 seasons. He was 431x466 from the line. He also owns the top two single season point totals for JHU. Here is the link to his bio from the Florida Gulf Coast University website. I wonder which big time college will come knocking when this season's over. Maybe UCLA? ;D Hard to believe he'll be at FGCU for very long, unless he's got a lot of "Mark Few" in him.

http://www.fgcuathletics.com/mbasketball/coaches/


Here's a link to a story on the Johns Hopkins website about their Hall of Famer's success. This article was written before FGCU won their first game against Georgetown. Now that they've won 2 games and made the Sweet Sixteen the website will probably have another story. 8-)

http://www.hopkinssports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/032213aab.html   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 25, 2013, 09:41:37 AM
Thanks, magicman.  Incredible parity has hit D-1!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on March 25, 2013, 09:54:37 AM
Isn't a basketball player's membership in the Johns Hopkins Athletics Hall of Fame more or less analogous to the most humid spot in the Atacama?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 25, 2013, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2013, 09:23:38 PM
Quote from: AO on March 23, 2013, 02:37:12 PM
Salem does not have a great brand for D3 basketball.  I'm sure they do a good job, but clearly, there are very few fans who know about it.  I bet if you took a poll of all the d3 players in the nation the vast majority would have no idea the final four takes place in Salem.  The game isn't on tv, and with a lot of repeat teams playing in it every year, most players won't have played against a final four team during their time in college.

If you do everything right, but you have a bad location, the student-athlete experience will suffer.  They want to see their friends, family and fans there.

Maybe at Northwestern they don't know but out here in the rest of the world, people do. :)
The rest of the world being the 500 in attendance at any one point Friday, and the maybe couple thousand viewing the games online?  Did you ask the Mary Hardin-Baylor players when they knew about Salem?  It's Salem Virginia in a venue best known for being the location of the Borat Rodeo Scene (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=770_1189777102).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
Considering the UMHB football program has played for a title in Salem and has been a contender to return ever since, I suspect the UMHB players know full well. I see the football and basketball players interact on Twitter so I know they talk. :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 25, 2013, 11:38:22 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
Considering the UMHB football program has played for a title in Salem and has been a contender to return ever since, I suspect the UMHB players know full well. I see the football and basketball players interact on Twitter so I know they talk. :)
I'd also bet that most of the football players were well into the playoffs before learning of Salem unless the coach made a special point of telling them.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
Talking about 12 years ago or so when they first made the playoffs? That's certainly possible. UMHB has only had football since 1997.

Salem is not going to have the sports cultural impact of Omaha but I look at it this way -- we get about 10 times as many questions asking where the women's Final Four is as we do for the men's Final Four. And considering that two-thirds of our traffic is men's, that suggests there's a great deal of recognition that Salem is the destination in MBB.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 25, 2013, 12:06:37 PM
Quote from: AO on March 25, 2013, 11:38:22 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
Considering the UMHB football program has played for a title in Salem and has been a contender to return ever since, I suspect the UMHB players know full well. I see the football and basketball players interact on Twitter so I know they talk. :)
I'd also bet that most of the football players were well into the playoffs before learning of Salem unless the coach made a special point of telling them.
Salem has been the focus of ASC and Texas D-III football from the very beginning.

The provincial nature of which Texans view their football (Dallas Cowboys - America's Team! Friday Night Lights? State Championship high school football games that draw 50,000 fans?  High school football stadia that cost up to $60M (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/highschool/08/30/allen-high-football-stadium.ap/index.html)) means that Salem has been the desired destination since HSU and Trinity were the "kings of the hill", trying to win the Stagg.

The poignancy of a story line will be if Coach DeWeese brings the Walnut-and-Bronce home before UMHB football Coach Fredenburg.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 25, 2013, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
Talking about 12 years ago or so when they first made the playoffs? That's certainly possible. UMHB has only had football since 1997.

Salem is not going to have the sports cultural impact of Omaha but I look at it this way -- we get about 10 times as many questions asking where the women's Final Four is as we do for the men's Final Four. And considering that two-thirds of our traffic is men's, that suggests there's a great deal of recognition that Salem is the destination in MBB.
I'm talking about the 2012 team.  Texas football players know about JerryWorld, they don't know about Salem.  You're going to have a rough time building a brand when the game isn't on TV, the venue isn't memorable and the atmosphere is often worst than the typical first round game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: AO on March 25, 2013, 12:13:12 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
Talking about 12 years ago or so when they first made the playoffs? That's certainly possible. UMHB has only had football since 1997.

Salem is not going to have the sports cultural impact of Omaha but I look at it this way -- we get about 10 times as many questions asking where the women's Final Four is as we do for the men's Final Four. And considering that two-thirds of our traffic is men's, that suggests there's a great deal of recognition that Salem is the destination in MBB.
I'm talking about the 2012 team.  Texas football players know about JerryWorld, they don't know about Salem.  You're going to have a rough time building a brand when the game isn't on TV, the venue isn't memorable and the atmosphere is often worst than the typical first round game.

Well, then I think you're just mistaken. No, no doubt that a high school football or basketball player doesn't generally come in knowing about Salem, but if a program has any serious aspirations of getting that far, it will get those players informed by the time practice starts, if not sooner.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 25, 2013, 12:35:38 PM
Stagg Bowl?  I think that is the Brand.

What type of Brand do you build for the Pro Football Hall of Fame in ... ? Canton Ohio?  Who goes to Canton OH?  Just south of Cleveland?  You know, the mistake by the lake?

Why not move the Pro Football Hall of Fame to ... Orlando?  Next to Disney World and Universal Pictures.

Hey, and take the Baseball Hall of Fame from Cooperstown and move it to Orlando, too.  I am sure that it will get more attendance, especially in wintertime!  I have been to Cooperstown.  It is in the middle of nowhere!

Sarcasm off.   :)

I give players credit for having the understanding of doing what they need to do get to the National Championship game, wherever it is.  That is especially the case in programs that have been to the playoffs in recent seasons.


And what Pat said.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2013, 12:39:50 PM
Quote from: magicman on March 25, 2013, 04:42:38 AM
Wasn't sure where the best place was to post this, but figured this was as good a spot as any. Also not sure if anyone else posted about this.

Andy Enfield, the coach of the Florida Gulf Coast Eagles, who everyone knows by now is the 1st #15 seed to advance to the Sweet Sixteen in DI, is a graduate of DIII Johns Hopkins University. Not only did he go there, he is the all time leading scorer for the  Blue Jays with over 2000 career points. He holds 16 JHU records and holds the NCAA record for career free throw percentage with a 92.5% mark over 4 seasons. He was 431x466 from the line. He also owns the top two single season point totals for JHU. Here is the link to his bio from the Florida Gulf Coast University website. I wonder which big time college will come knocking when this season's over. Maybe UCLA? ;D Hard to believe he'll be at FGCU for very long, unless he's got a lot of "Mark Few" in him.

http://www.fgcuathletics.com/mbasketball/coaches/


Here's a link to a story on the Johns Hopkins website about their Hall of Famer's success. This article was written before FGCU won their first game against Georgetown. Now that they've won 2 games and made the Sweet Sixteen the website will probably have another story. 8-)

http://www.hopkinssports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/032213aab.html   

The school's only been in existence for 17 years.  They've only been in d1 for a few seasons.  They have a campus right on the beach (there's literally a beach in the middle of campus) in a pretty attractive recruiting location.  I'd be more apt to ask what conference is going to come calling.  They'll certainly be able to step up from the Atlantic Sun if the coach sticks around.  They've got the makings of a strong program if they can build on this success.

Besides, everyone knows UCLA is coming for another d3 coaching prospect - VCU's Shaka Smart.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on March 25, 2013, 01:38:28 PM
Certainly the typical hs football player in Ohio or Wisconsin knows about the Stagg Bowl - most probably in mid-western points in between..
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
I talk to a lot of players and coaches over the years and even the ones with .500 records know about Salem and that the goal is Salem. I knew of a team that hung up a picture of what they thought was the Salem Civic Center back in the late 90's to remind the team what their goal was - I didn't truly understand Salem as a non-basketball player at the time... but they did.

AO - you can pretend that Salem is not on the minds of basketball or football players, but if you actually did a national poll you would probably be shocked to find how many know where the ultimate goal is every season. Having interviewed many players in Salem over the years, they don't talk like, "oh, Salem, now I understand!" They talk about this being the ultimate goal. Not the final four, but getting to Salem. This year was the biggest example of that. Countless players and coaches talked that while a championship would not be crowned in Salem this year... the goal was still Salem. These teams know more about their school's, conference's, state's, region's ability or inability to get to Salem than even those "in the know" remember.

I agree that Salem may never get to the echelon of Omaha (for many reasons like television), but when people in men's basketball say the word "Salem"... not many people have to ask what they are talking about.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on March 25, 2013, 02:16:36 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2013, 02:14:15 PM
I talk to a lot of players and coaches over the years and even the ones with .500 records know about Salem and that the goal is Salem. I knew of a team that hung up a picture of what they thought was the Salem Civic Center back in the late 90's to remind the team what their goal was - I didn't truly understand Salem as a non-basketball player at the time... but they did.

AO - you can pretend that Salem is not on the minds of basketball or football players, but if you actually did a national poll you would probably be shocked to find how many know where the ultimate goal is every season. Having interviewed many players in Salem over the years, they don't talk like, "oh, Salem, now I understand!" They talk about this being the ultimate goal. Not the final four, but getting to Salem. This year was the biggest example of that. Countless players and coaches talked that while a championship would not be crowned in Salem this year... the goal was still Salem. These teams know more about their school's, conference's, state's, region's ability or inability to get to Salem than even those "in the know" remember.

I agree that Salem may never get to the echelon of Omaha (for many reasons like television), but when people in men's basketball say the word "Salem"... not many people have to ask what they are talking about.

Wait, did they actually hang a picture of some other building?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2013, 02:22:50 PM
Yeah... the Roanoke Civic Center LOL. Right valley, wrong building!  ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 25, 2013, 02:36:46 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2013, 02:22:50 PM
Yeah... the Roanoke Civic Center LOL. Right valley, wrong building!  ;D
Exactly my point, the teams that talk about "Salem", are just using it as a synonym for "championship", they're not excited about the Salem area local media coverage, or all the great volunteers. 

I would also think a majority of coaches are not talking about Salem with their team prior to getting there.   One game at a time.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2013, 02:42:21 PM
AO - I suggest you actually talk to players and make it a large sample size... you couldn't be more wrong.

And my example was in the 90's before internet searching was as easy as it was today. They knew that the goal was Salem... they just found the wrong "civic center" which is located about ten miles away. If anything, that proves they had their minds on Salem - and I promise you the coaches had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 25, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2013, 02:42:21 PM
AO - I suggest you actually talk to players and make it a large sample size... you couldn't be more wrong.

And my example was in the 90's before internet searching was as easy as it was today. They knew that the goal was Salem... they just found the wrong "civic center" which is located about ten miles away. If anything, that proves they had their minds on Salem - and I promise you the coaches had nothing to do with it.
You'd be in a better position to talk to players from multiple regions.  If you went to a random d3 school and asked the players where the final four is located and who won the title last year, how many would get it right?  If you happened to go to a top 50 team with a thought of making it, maybe you'd get 40% of players who could get both right, but I have serious doubts about everybody else.  I'm not proposing that another location could become a better brand, but I just don't think that's much of an argument for retaining Salem as the permanent home of the final four.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 25, 2013, 03:02:27 PM
Quote from: AO on March 25, 2013, 02:36:46 PM
...the teams that talk about "Salem" are just using it as a synonym for "championship", they're not excited about the Salem area local media coverage or all the great volunteers.
I agree.  If the location was changed, DIII coaches would be speaking of "New Location" as their goal, not Salem, without missing a beat.  It's all just code for what they want to be doing at this time of year, which is to still be playing.  They don't much care where it is, as long as the games are meaningful and they're fighting for a championship.

I have nothing against Salem and how they handle the event, although I think some discussion could be given to making all of the seating general admission, first come first serve.  But the location and accessibility of the city isn't the best.  I understand that if no one steps up with a bid it's not moving.  It's just that I would like to see that happen, in a spot a bit more centralized and closer to a major airport.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: SUMMIT!!!!! on March 25, 2013, 08:40:41 PM
for what its worth- Ive experienced Salem now twice, once for football and now for MBB. Yes, its a tad isolated geographically and not the easiest place to find a cheap easy flight but you can do it pretty economically if you look around-- I flew in/out of Richmond, a most scenic 3 hr drive with LOTS of sightseeing ideas along the route. That said, the people of Salem- the civic leaders on down to the wait staff at every eatery and bar in town are genuinely appreciative of the visitors and go far to try to make it an experience you wont forget. Same is true for what is done for the players and coaches. Trust me, 30 years from now, the players who were there this weekend will all remember it as one of the best weekends of their lives, and thats true for all 8 teams, not just Amherst and MHB. I hope Salem continues to host the championships for years to come. As others on here have said, the name Salem is synonymous with championships in the minds of d3 football and MBB people of all stripes- players, coaches, fans, alums. NO other city can make that claim in any sport, at any level of NCAA.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 25, 2013, 08:52:29 PM
Quote from: miacmaniac on March 25, 2013, 08:40:41 PM
for what its worth- Ive experienced Salem now twice, once for football and now for MBB. Yes, its a tad isolated geographically and not the easiest place to find a cheap easy flight but you can do it pretty economically if you look around-- I flew in/out of Richmond, a most scenic 3 hr drive with LOTS of sightseeing ideas along the route. That said, the people of Salem- the civic leaders on down to the wait staff at every eatery and bar in town are genuinely appreciative of the visitors and go far to try to make it an experience you wont forget. Same is true for what is done for the players and coaches. Trust me, 30 years from now, the players who were there this weekend will all remember it as one of the best weekends of their lives, and thats true for all 8 teams, not just Amherst and MHB. I hope Salem continues to host the championships for years to come. As others on here have said, the name Salem is synonymous with championships in the minds of d3 football and MBB people of all stripes- players, coaches, fans, alums. NO other city can make that claim in any sport, at any level of NCAA.

I agree with everything until this - Appleton (d3) and Omaha (d1) have at least that degree of recognition in baseball.

Whether there are also others in other sports or other levels, I don't know.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 25, 2013, 09:26:13 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 25, 2013, 08:52:29 PM
Quote from: miacmaniac on March 25, 2013, 08:40:41 PM
for what its worth- Ive experienced Salem now twice, once for football and now for MBB. Yes, its a tad isolated geographically and not the easiest place to find a cheap easy flight but you can do it pretty economically if you look around-- I flew in/out of Richmond, a most scenic 3 hr drive with LOTS of sightseeing ideas along the route. That said, the people of Salem- the civic leaders on down to the wait staff at every eatery and bar in town are genuinely appreciative of the visitors and go far to try to make it an experience you wont forget. Same is true for what is done for the players and coaches. Trust me, 30 years from now, the players who were there this weekend will all remember it as one of the best weekends of their lives, and thats true for all 8 teams, not just Amherst and MHB. I hope Salem continues to host the championships for years to come. As others on here have said, the name Salem is synonymous with championships in the minds of d3 football and MBB people of all stripes- players, coaches, fans, alums. NO other city can make that claim in any sport, at any level of NCAA.

I agree with everything until this - Appleton (d3) and Omaha (d1) have at least that degree of recognition in baseball.

Whether there are also others in other sports or other levels, I don't know.
Dallas and Frisco, Texas roll out the red carpet for the FCS championship. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 09:27:45 PM
For two years ... might need to give it some time before it merits that kind of mention.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: iwufans on March 25, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Only 500 fans? I thought the attendance looked light, but hoped the fans were all sitting on the opposite side of the camera.  We have had at least half that ourselves.  Were folks choosing to wait until Atlanta???  As fans who have visited the Final Four in Salem several times, I can tell you it is an enjoyable experience that we always look forward to.  We enjoy walking into arena and seeing the championship banners hanging.    We enjoy the drive through the mountains, the warmer weather, the friendly reception and friendly southern welcome we receive.  We can't wait to go back.   As far as name recognition...how many outside of D III realize there is another level of besides I and II?   As fans of Division III how can you NOT be aware of Salem.   I guess you are aware of anything as much as you choose to make yourself aware.   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 25, 2013, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: iwufans on March 25, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Only 500 fans? I thought the attendance looked light, but hoped the fans were all sitting on the opposite side of the camera.  We have had at least half that ourselves.  Were folks choosing to wait until Atlanta???  As fans who have visited the Final Four in Salem several times, I can tell you it is an enjoyable experience that we always look forward to.  We enjoy walking into arena and seeing the championship banners hanging.    We enjoy the drive through the mountains, the warmer weather, the friendly reception and friendly southern welcome we receive.  We can't wait to go back.   As far as name recognition...how many outside of D III realize there is another level of besides I and II?   As fans of Division III how can you NOT be aware of Salem.   I guess you are aware of anything as much as you choose to make yourself aware.

Fixed it for you! ;D

The vast majority of fans don't know squat about d2.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: iwufans on March 25, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Only 500 fans? I thought the attendance looked light, but hoped the fans were all sitting on the opposite side of the camera.  We have had at least half that ourselves.  Were folks choosing to wait until Atlanta???

It's believed that's part of it.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on March 25, 2013, 10:42:48 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: iwufans on March 25, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Only 500 fans? I thought the attendance looked light, but hoped the fans were all sitting on the opposite side of the camera.  We have had at least half that ourselves.  Were folks choosing to wait until Atlanta???

It's believed that's part of it.

No one ever brought it up but there really wasn't a team in Salem that's known for traveling fans.

Didn't 6 teams have to fly into Salem? 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 26, 2013, 12:43:49 AM
Just out of curiosity, exactly what does it mean, anyway, to put in a "bid" to host an event such as this?

I'm asking because a couple of weeks ago a friend and I were talking about the DII Women's Elite Eight being held so far away in San Antonio.  Both being fans of a very good Ashland team, we would have gone had it been closer.  At any rate, he seemed to believe that the people who "bid" and got the tournament actually "bid" a dollar amount to get it, the money going to the NCAA.  I said I was pretty sure that it didn't work that way, but I don't really know.  Anybody know, without going into major detail or revealing state secrets, how it does work?  Is it the same for all divisions?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on March 26, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
I believe most are simply decided by the better team hosting assuming they filed the papers before the tournament to host. Not sure how they choose different championship sites or the early round sites in men's D1 but they tend to be the same handful of places just rotated around (or with Salem the same every year)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 26, 2013, 06:14:58 AM
Quote from: sac on March 25, 2013, 10:42:48 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2013, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: iwufans on March 25, 2013, 09:33:31 PM
Only 500 fans? I thought the attendance looked light, but hoped the fans were all sitting on the opposite side of the camera.  We have had at least half that ourselves.  Were folks choosing to wait until Atlanta???

It's believed that's part of it.

No one ever brought it up but there really wasn't a team in Salem that's known for traveling fans.

Didn't 6 teams have to fly into Salem? 

I actually brought it up earlier, I guess it got lost in the shuffle...or no one is listening to me!  ???  :o  :-[  ;) 

And John Gleich mentioned the absence of the ODAC teams, potentially raising the attendance had one made it.

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 23, 2013, 11:17:02 AM
Another thing about the attendance...

What is the history of support for the schools that were in the Elite 8?  Do they travel well?  It seemed when Point went the year Williams and Amherst played each other in the semi-final, Amherst had half the amount of fans Williams did. 

What about MHB, Middlebury and St. Mary's?  How as Cabrini's support last year or when St. Thomas won it the previous year?  I know IWU travels well, but what about NCC?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 26, 2013, 07:44:47 AM

Of course it also helps attendance if you get a school with 10,000 undergrads to Salem.  Cabrini's got 1600 and only recently have they made serious attempts to build a strong athletics program.  St. Mary's is about the same size, plus with one of their best players injured didn't have a ton of prospects to win the weekend.  And those are the two closest schools.

MHB was very far from home, as was St. Thomas.  The three NESCAC schools combined have about the same enrollment as the Tommies.

I've never taken NCC fans as those who travel a great deal.


I'm not sure the prospects for attendance were all that great.  To me it's much more about making the experience a positive for the players.  I know the all-star participants were all gushing about how much they enjoyed what Salem put on for them.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2013, 04:07:22 PM
And St. Mary's played at 2:30 on a Friday afternoon, to boot.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 26, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
I guess what I want is reassurance that we will view this experiment as "Been there, Done that and T-shirts are on sale from the NCAA (at a discount) while supplies last".

Was it worth having 8 teams go to Salem?

Was it worth having 30 first round teams to host?

Did we blow the travel budget?

Does the long drawn out process run counter to the philosophy of D-III?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on March 26, 2013, 04:20:59 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 26, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
Did we blow the travel budget?

Does the long drawn out process run counter to the philosophy of D-III?
The whole concept of a national tournament runs counter to the philosophy of D3 in the minds of many of the D3 presidents.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2013, 04:40:26 PM
Probably true among some portion, but not all of the 25% that voted in favor of continuing to explore D-IV or a subdivision of D-III.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 26, 2013, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 26, 2013, 04:13:51 PM
I guess what I want is reassurance that we will view this experiment as "Been there, Done that and T-shirts are on sale from the NCAA (at a discount) while supplies last".

Was it worth having 8 teams go to Salem?

Was it worth having 30 first round teams to host?

Did we blow the travel budget?

Does the long drawn out process run counter to the philosophy of D-III?

From what I have gathered... 8 teams in Salem was a huge hit to the point that many entities are looking into hosting the Elite 8, Final 4 and then the championship in the future.

30 first round hosts? Not sure that is something people love considering the two byes got two weeks between games... but I am not positive this wouldn't be explored if the Elite 8 weekend moves froward.

Didn't blow the travel budget. There were only two flights in the first rounds, Salem was exempt.

Lots of things tend to fly in the face of the D3 philosophy... thus if they EVER wanted to move the D3 title game to the D1 Final Four (and I doubt they will), they will probably move the entire season to adjust for the drawn out nature of the tournament this year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: woosterbooster on March 26, 2013, 06:09:46 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 26, 2013, 05:48:00 PM
From what I have gathered... 8 teams in Salem was a huge hit to the point that many entities are looking into hosting the Elite 8, Final 4 and then the championship in the future.

Dave, didn't you just say a few days ago, in response to one of my posts, that no one else had as yet stepped up and offered to supplant Salem as the host for DIII basketball?  Are you now saying that, if it were to continue to be an eight-team event, an Elite 8 with a Championship game, that there are other places with new-found interest in doing so?  If this is so, I see that as hopeful news.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 26, 2013, 06:33:22 PM
Thanks, Dave. That was the insightful informative answer for which I was hoping.

Moving the season back a week would help D3football.com wind down a bit.

Moving back 2 weeks would take Thanksgiving out of play.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on March 26, 2013, 06:36:10 PM
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 26, 2013, 12:43:49 AM
Just out of curiosity, exactly what does it mean, anyway, to put in a "bid" to host an event such as this?

I'm asking because a couple of weeks ago a friend and I were talking about the DII Women's Elite Eight being held so far away in San Antonio.  Both being fans of a very good Ashland team, we would have gone had it been closer.  At any rate, he seemed to believe that the people who "bid" and got the tournament actually "bid" a dollar amount to get it, the money going to the NCAA.  I said I was pretty sure that it didn't work that way, but I don't really know.  Anybody know, without going into major detail or revealing state secrets, how it does work?  Is it the same for all divisions?

Putting in a bid means you detail all of the costs you will need the NCAA to cover if you are awarded the right to host. Additionally you lay out all the details of your hosting plan including facility, location, ease of travel, hotels, community support, advertising, emergency procedures, staff and volunteer coverage, area restaurants and probably a dozen more things I didn't think of off the top of my head.

The championships committee looks at your total package including the costs and decides who hosts. If you are selected, then the NCAA will cover your expenses as you laid them out in your bid. So it pays to be accurate.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on March 26, 2013, 08:00:00 PM
Well, we have a big delay now of two weeks before the Final.  This part of the scheduling is the worst part.  I think, with the D3 Final played at the D1 tourney, they could've done this slightly better.  Before my suggestion, I do realize Salem had to get something out of this since they weren't hosting the actual Final, plus they wanted to get the all-star game in as well.

With a schedule of one game a week on a Saturday, I think it would've made perfect sense to have the Elite 8 round this past weekend and then the Final 4 round next weekend and then the Final the following weekend, as scheduled.  It really puts a damper on things when you play once a week and then play twice in two days and then have two full weeks off before playing again.  Many teams don't even have that long of a break during the Christmas holiday/semester break.

I don't have a solution on how we would fit Salem in there with my suggested schedule, but a two-week gap is just too long!  ::)

I doubt you want to fly out four teams to Salem just to play the semi-final round, so I guess the way they did it was the only way to do it. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 26, 2013, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 26, 2013, 06:09:46 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 26, 2013, 05:48:00 PM
From what I have gathered... 8 teams in Salem was a huge hit to the point that many entities are looking into hosting the Elite 8, Final 4 and then the championship in the future.

Dave, didn't you just say a few days ago, in response to one of my posts, that no one else had as yet stepped up and offered to supplant Salem as the host for DIII basketball?  Are you now saying that, if it were to continue to be an eight-team event, an Elite 8 with a Championship game, that there are other places with new-found interest in doing so?  If this is so, I see that as hopeful news.

Entities as in the NABC, the NCAA, the ODAC, other coaches, etc., etc., etc., etc. No other hosts I am aware of.

As for the schedule, remember two key things: the D1 weekend was moved back a year meaning a normal schedule would have had the D3 title weekend on conference championship weekend this year; the schedule was late in being decided on, so there was less they could do with the six weeks between the end of the season and a title game. Also, the NCAA didn't want to screw Salem who was awarded the opportunity to host the final four. That building is booked accordingly and saying to them thanks, but we have another plan less than a year out isn't good business. Salem was actually able to move the weekend a week to allow a more stretched out tournament... not sure what would have happened if Salem couldn't have done this.

By the way, remember that the two week gap right now is the same gap Amherst and UMHB have already experienced - I think they are up for this :). Also, with the distractions in Atlanta... two weeks won't feel like two weeks.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 09:29:18 AM
I wouldn't mind "the Salem experience" expanding to include the elite 8 in future years. I don't think that was the "problem" this year in terms of attendance. I attribute it more to it not being the final destination. The motivation for a fanbase to invest the time and expense into making the trip is far less when a national championship is not on the line.

If Salem does go to on to host the final three rounds, I would like to see the tournament take on the following format:

First round: single games played on campus (30-32 hosts)
Second-Third Round: four-team pods (8 hosts)
Elite 8-Nat'l Championship at Salem
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: magicman on March 27, 2013, 10:41:23 AM
Quote from: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 09:29:18 AM
I wouldn't mind "the Salem experience" expanding to include the elite 8 in future years. I don't think that was the "problem" this year in terms of attendance. I attribute it more to it not being the final destination. The motivation for a fanbase to invest the time and expense into making the trip is far less when a national championship is not on the line.

If Salem does go to on to host the final three rounds, I would like to see the tournament take on the following format:

First round: single games played on campus (30-32 hosts)
Second-Third Round: four-team pods (8 hosts)
Elite 8-Nat'l Championship at Salem

I was going to say the same thing ziggy. I like the fact that it gives more schools a chance to host an NCAA tournament game by having single first round games. Eight 4 team pods to get to Salem and then Salem would be an 8 game extravaganza (with the All Star game). It would make for a nice weekend of DIII hoops.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 27, 2013, 10:44:03 AM
Playing three games on the weekend would be the ultimate challenge for a team.  Depth would prevail in many years.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on March 27, 2013, 10:49:10 AM
Fantastic weekend of D3 hoops... the problem I would have, and anybody having to travel a significant distance would have, is that it would necessitate 2 extra days off over the current format... ie, with a long day's drive, and hopefully for many people who fly, it's possible to travel on Friday and get to motel and Friday night twin-bill under current Salem setup......  however, if we go to four games Thursday, semis Friday, Final Saturday, travel would have to be done on Wednesday, hence 3 days off...  heck, might as well take the whole week off and enjoy the build up!!!! ;D ;D ;D



Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 10:51:18 AM
They wouldn't want to play three days in a row. It would have to be Friday, Saturday, Monday. Taking Sunday off gives the guys the chance to bounce back for the title game, plus it eliminates us ever having to worry about what to do if Calvin, Hope, Wheaton, Messiah or another team which won't play on Sunday advances.

As for whether it's 30/32 or 16 first-weekend hosts, remember that if we go to 30/32 hosts then we run the risk of having more geographic issues with our bracket.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
I also think the one-game weekend in the first round will be a concern per the two weeks off the bye teams would have to endure. I am not sure the committee or others were thrilled with the idea of having those two weeks off... so, if they could a pod in the first weekend eliminates that and just sets up a simple one-game round the second weekend. That being said, I have also heard from some that both options have their pros and cons, so everything is on the table (except as Pat noted the Sunday game for a championship... that isn't going to happen).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
I also think the one-game weekend in the first round will be a concern per the two weeks off the bye teams would have to endure. I am not sure the committee or others were thrilled with the idea of having those two weeks off... so, if they could a pod in the first weekend eliminates that and just sets up a simple one-game round the second weekend. That being said, I have also heard from some that both options have their pros and cons, so everything is on the table (except as Pat noted the Sunday game for a championship... that isn't going to happen).

Yeah, it definitely works better if/when the field goes to 64 teams. I still like the idea of having a lot of hosting opportunities and would rather the neutral court matchups come in the second weekend than the first. Like you said, pros and cons either way.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 01:01:02 PM
Quote from: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
I also think the one-game weekend in the first round will be a concern per the two weeks off the bye teams would have to endure. I am not sure the committee or others were thrilled with the idea of having those two weeks off... so, if they could a pod in the first weekend eliminates that and just sets up a simple one-game round the second weekend. That being said, I have also heard from some that both options have their pros and cons, so everything is on the table (except as Pat noted the Sunday game for a championship... that isn't going to happen).

Yeah, it definitely works better if/when the field goes to 64 teams. I still like the idea of having a lot of hosting opportunities and would rather the neutral court matchups come in the second weekend than the first. Like you said, pros and cons either way.

Well... it will happen... I just can't remember the exact timing with the addition of more teams.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2013, 01:02:01 PM
I realize it is an awfully small sample to be drawing conclusions, but since the two teams who had the two week layoff this year are the two teams going to Atlanta, it's kind of difficult to conclude that the layoff was harmful! ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: fantastic50 on March 27, 2013, 01:19:31 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
I also think the one-game weekend in the first round will be a concern per the two weeks off the bye teams would have to endure. I am not sure the committee or others were thrilled with the idea of having those two weeks off... so, if they could a pod in the first weekend eliminates that and just sets up a simple one-game round the second weekend. That being said, I have also heard from some that both options have their pros and cons, so everything is on the table (except as Pat noted the Sunday game for a championship... that isn't going to happen).

I think there would be fewer travel issues involved with having single games on the first weekend.  If the single games were on the second weekend (round of 16), this would require a bit more work to avoid the possibility of flights.  As a result, I expect that we would see more rematches of regular-season games (because pods of four teams would be paired geographically).  Personally, I really like the 2/2/2 format that we have used in previous years, but I am biased by my team getting to host frequently.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2013, 01:02:01 PM
I realize it is an awfully small sample to be drawing conclusions, but since the two teams who had the two week layoff this year are the two teams going to Atlanta, it's kind of difficult to conclude that the layoff was harmful! ;)

While I agree... I also know each coach was VERY worried how their team would fare as a result of the extra time off... something I know the committee had a concern about as well.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 02:23:29 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 01:01:02 PM
Quote from: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 12:35:40 PM
Yeah, it definitely works better if/when the field goes to 64 teams. I still like the idea of having a lot of hosting opportunities and would rather the neutral court matchups come in the second weekend than the first. Like you said, pros and cons either way.

Well... it will happen... I just can't remember the exact timing with the addition of more teams.

As for 64 teams, we don't have a date for that yet because there aren't enough teams in the pipeline to join Division III. We need 410 schools in order to get to 63 teams and 416 schools in order to get to 64.

If the NCAA's numbers are to be trusted, this year we had 405 eligible for the tournament. Maranatha and Nebraska Wesleyan declared for the NAIA championship, according to the handbook, and I doubt we will get them back in any time soon. Next year, William Peace's new MBB team will be eligible for the NCAA Tournament, and Covenant and Berry should be full members of Division III, giving us 408. There were also a bunch of programs in their first year as provisional members this year, including Southern Virginia, Houghton, Sarah Lawrence, SUNY Canton. If two of them make it through (and nobody else leaves D-III) then we'd get to 410 in 2016-17. After that, it tends to be a year lag before we get the bid we're entitled to.

Also worth keeping an eye on: Wilson College, a full D-III member, announced it would begin admitting male undergraduates. I would presume a men's basketball team would follow. But right now, we only have enough schools in the pipeline to get to 63 teams, not to the 64th.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on March 27, 2013, 03:54:26 PM
Plus Centenary LA in 2014-15 and minus Mississippi College in 2013-14, which is going to D-II.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Hah, that didn't take long:

http://www.wilson.edu/news/detail.aspx?pageaction=ViewSinglePublic&LinkID=1523&ModuleID=31
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 04:13:46 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Hah, that didn't take long:

http://www.wilson.edu/news/detail.aspx?pageaction=ViewSinglePublic&LinkID=1523&ModuleID=31

Guessing he'll use the "playing time" card a lot on the recruiting trail.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: ziggy on March 27, 2013, 04:13:46 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Hah, that didn't take long:

http://www.wilson.edu/news/detail.aspx?pageaction=ViewSinglePublic&LinkID=1523&ModuleID=31

Guessing he'll use the "playing time" card a lot on the recruiting trail.

That and the male-to-female ratio.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Hah, that didn't take long:

http://www.wilson.edu/news/detail.aspx?pageaction=ViewSinglePublic&LinkID=1523&ModuleID=31

I was going to say... because I already knew the job was open for awhile. :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 10:56:56 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 27, 2013, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Hah, that didn't take long:

http://www.wilson.edu/news/detail.aspx?pageaction=ViewSinglePublic&LinkID=1523&ModuleID=31

I was going to say... because I already knew the job was open for awhile. :)

If you know and don't say anything, it isn't very useful. :) Seriously, I only found out a few days ago they were adding men.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 28, 2013, 12:22:44 AM
I heard about it a few weeks ago and discussed it with someone... but to be honest, I was doing so much I forgot you weren't the person I was talking to :) - sorry!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on April 01, 2013, 12:21:57 PM
OT D1 bracket question
  2 of the play-in games didn't involve 16 seeds: Boise-LaSalle(13 seed) and Middle Tenn-St. Mary's(11 seed). Why was this? St. Mary's, for example, would have had to win one more game than either 16 seed W. Kentucky or Southern to win the championship.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on April 01, 2013, 12:31:06 PM
Quote from: ronk on April 01, 2013, 12:21:57 PM
OT D1 bracket question
  2 of the play-in games didn't involve 16 seeds: Boise-LaSalle(13 seed) and Middle Tenn-St. Mary's(11 seed). Why was this? St. Mary's, for example, would have had to win one more game than either 16 seed W. Kentucky or Southern to win the championship.
Because it should be the last 8 at large teams in the play in games but the NCAA would never do that. We're lucky that they do it 2 and 2 since back when there was just one play-in game it was the 16 seeds rather than the at-large teams.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on April 01, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
OK, thanks-sounds like a compromise; didn't comprehend what the rationale might be.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 01, 2013, 01:14:37 PM
When they expanded to 68 they promised that they wouldn't put the 8 "worst" teams in those first four games (partly for TV ratings too). So four of the teams are the four the committee judged to be the worst in the field of 68, but the other four teams are the four lowest ranked at-large teams. Since the lowest at-large team is generally seeded higher than the lowest automatic qualifier, they slide those four into whatever seed number they likely should be. Usually 11-14 depending on how the brackets shake out.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 01, 2013, 03:22:56 PM
Quote from: ronk on April 01, 2013, 12:21:57 PM
OT D1 bracket question
  2 of the play-in games didn't involve 16 seeds: Boise-LaSalle(13 seed) and Middle Tenn-St. Mary's(11 seed). Why was this? St. Mary's, for example, would have had to win one more game than either 16 seed W. Kentucky or Southern to win the championship.

There are a couple of ways to look at it.  The NCAA doesn't want people to think of those Tuesday/Wednesday games in Dayton as play-in games, so they called them first round games.  You can think of it as 60 teams having been given a bye to the second round.  It's silly, but that would be how the wizards in Indy want you to think of it. 

I'm actually surprised that with the creation of a new league next year they didn't shoehorn a 69th team in somehow.  That's how we got beyond 64 in the first place...when a group of teams split off from the WAC to form the MWC, the rest of D1 hoops didn't want the new automatic bid to take away from the at-large pool.  So they added an AQ and had 65 teams and made some poor league champion from a low-major league pay the freight by having to play for the right to be in the field of 64, which they had already earned by winning their league. 

I generally dislike the first four games, but the NCAA has struck a bit of luck with those games by seeing some of those teams become big stories by having tournament success (Virginia Commonwealth to the Final Four in 2011, LaSalle to the Sweet 16 this year) so those games aren't going anywhere. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 01, 2013, 04:44:49 PM
Wichita State in the Final Four...

Are they truly a "Mid-Major"?  How come all of these mid-majors haven't gotten the memo to fold like a cheap chair,  to shut up and go sit in the corner? 

Harvard?  FCGU?  Lots of parity in D-1.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 01, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
It's a Randolph-Macon grad ('85)...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 04, 2013, 01:08:45 PM
Mary Hardin-Baylor is playing Amherst, right?  ???

For the last two weeks the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has Amherst playing St. Mary's! Duh!

No respect!  >:(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 07, 2013, 12:53:13 PM
Amherst is hot!

Thanks to the Dave & Buster's North Dallas for the satellite link!

Lord Jeffs, 25-12 with 12 minutes left in the half.  Getting ugly.   :(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:11:28 PM
I love the way James Allen goes to the hoop.. and the difference is single digits now!!  Not sold on all the Orr 3 point attempts though...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 07, 2013, 01:12:15 PM
I can't believe they didn't put it online.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 07, 2013, 01:14:30 PM
Amherst 33-28. 3 mins left.

And before I can get the score typed, 38-28!   The Lord Jeffs are 6-18 from outside.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:15:23 PM
I'm watching on DirecTV  Chanel 613 CBSSports...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:19:36 PM
Ralph, you desrve all the excitement of this championship game with your dedication to the ASC and D3 sports ... wish you could have been in Atlanta to enjoy all the glitz...     8 points at half is not overwhelming....   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:20:52 PM
Sign from Cru fan: "Amherst likes Nickelback" :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
Wonder if the D3 championship participants were able to score tickets for the D1 semis......
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:28:41 PM
Yes, each of the teams was introduced on the court during one of the semifinal games.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:30:02 PM
There must be something in the water down here.  Check out the stats from the top players from the six teams that have played here this weekend so far.

Aaron Toomey (Amherst): 3 points, 1-5 FG, 10 minutes through one half (two fouls)
Kitrick Bell (UMHB): 2 points, 1-3 FG, 4 rebounds through one half
Michael Carter-Williams (Syracuse): 2 points, 1-6 FG, 35 minutes
Trey Burke (Michigan): 7 points, 1-8 FG, 38 minutes
Peyton Siva (Louisville): 7 points, 1-9 FG, 34 minutes
Malcolm Armstead (Wichita State): 2 points, 1-10 FG, 29 minutes
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:34:26 PM
They just showed 6 or 7 D1 coaches who came from D3... Bo Ryan was named and I recognized him anyway... but who were the rest of the guys?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 07, 2013, 01:37:45 PM
Now the live stats aren't working either.  Ways to go NCAA.

We can watch online feeds of first round games in gyms with 100 people, but broadcasting the championship game from an 18,000 seat arena is out.

Do they really think people are going to sign up for cbssports to watch one game?

They could have at least put it on the big network - surely Bull Riding is not a big ratings grab.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:42:07 PM
Trivia.. Dan Bonner, broadcasting the game on CBS sports went to my HS (Avonworth HS in the suburbs of Pittsburgh)...  heck, I may have been his hero, as I was a senior on a 20-3 team when he was an 8th grader.... he went on to play at Virginia, I went on to play at RPI!!!   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on April 07, 2013, 01:44:41 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on April 07, 2013, 01:37:45 PM
Now the live stats aren't working either.  Ways to go NCAA.

We can watch online feeds of first round games in gyms with 100 people, but broadcasting the championship game from an 18,000 seat arena is out.

Do they really think people are going to sign up for cbssports to watch one game?

They could have at least put it on the big network - surely Bull Riding is not a big ratings grab.
And the fact that the D2 championship will be on the big network.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:46:41 PM
A bank of lights just went out here. We'll see if they delay the restart of the game coming out of the time out. <Minor delay but not Superbowl redux)

The other coaches included Steve Moore of Wooster, Mark Edwards of Washington U. and Mark Slessinger of New Orleans (an Assistant at Aurora).
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 07, 2013, 01:46:56 PM
Quote from: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:19:36 PM
Ralph, you desrve all the excitement of this championship game with your dedication to the ASC and D3 sports ... wish you could have been in Atlanta to enjoy all the glitz...     8 points at half is not overwhelming....
Thanks hopefan.

It is kinda lonely in this part of D3.  Very few D3 fans understand this part of the country.  I am glad that Pat Coleman did Tour de Texas several years ago.

I posted that the "stars" aligned for UMHB to make it this far.  They caught Whitworth early (third round). Coach DeWeese had already played (and lost) at Whitworth in November so the trip and the gym were not "new" to UMHB.  UMHB got to "sneak up" on Whitworth as a previously beaten underdog.   UMHB caught the Elite 8 and Final Four on a geographically neutral site; everyone was far from home.  Usually the ASC team is the only who has flown beyond the second round.

UMHB has a playoff history so there is no "gee wow' we are in the playoffs effect to overcome"  Coach DeWeese was the coach that I always wanted to beat most.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:52:20 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:46:41 PM
A bank of lights just went out here. We'll see if they delay the restart of the game coming out of the time out. <Minor delay but not Superbowl redux)

The other coaches included Steve Moore of Wooster, Mark Edwards of Washington U. and Mark Slessinger of New Orleans (an Assistant at Aurora).

Gordon.. no these coaches were introduced as D1 coaches coming from D3... not D3 current coaches...not Mark Edwards etc...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:54:45 PM
Not true unless Steve Moore took another job.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:57:19 PM
Well, don't know Coach Moore on sight, but I'll guarantee you Mark Edwards wasn't in the group I saw... wonder if we're talking the same group?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 07, 2013, 01:59:37 PM
Yeah, maybe not. You were right on Edwards. He was interviewed at the time I was typing.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 02:06:37 PM
If MHB keeps taking it to the basket, and if they can start making free throws, they can stay in this game....
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 02:08:05 PM
Orr, Allen, Todd  44 of 51 MHB points...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 02:16:40 PM
But with 4 minutes left, and MHB starting to force up bad shots, I'm afraid it's over.....
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 07, 2013, 02:22:08 PM
The fat lady is clearing her throat.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: BUBeaverFan on April 07, 2013, 10:14:21 PM
UT-Arlington arena 2 miles from Cowboy Stadium. 7,000 seating capacity sounds like a good option for DIII, DII championships in 2014. I know Salem is set to host but it seemed like a good thing this year to have all three together.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 07, 2013, 10:33:56 PM
Quote from: BUBeaverFan on April 07, 2013, 10:14:21 PM
UT-Arlington arena 2 miles from Cowboy Stadium. 7,000 seating capacity sounds like a good option for DIII, DII championships in 2014. I know Salem is set to host but it seemed like a good thing this year to have all three together.
The new arena is better than Texas Hall, where you literally played on a stage of an auditorium.

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2006/12/unbeaten-ut-dallas-tops-d-i-school

I still don't like detracting from Salem and the really long drawn out schedule.  We lost some momentum.

Why do we need our championship experience "validated' at the venue of another classification?  Lacrosse is one thing.  Hoops is different.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 07, 2013, 10:36:13 PM
Mark Edwards was in the halftime group but the camera lingered so lovingly on that Bo Ryan guy that Edwards wasn't really seen. :)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ronk on April 08, 2013, 12:44:10 AM
Quote from: hopefan on April 07, 2013, 01:42:07 PM
Trivia.. Dan Bonner, broadcasting the game on CBS sports went to my HS (Avonworth HS in the suburbs of Pittsburgh)...  heck, I may have been his hero, as I was a senior on a 20-3 team when he was an 8th grader.... he went on to play at Virginia, I went on to play at RPI!!!

I saw Dan Bonner play in the Dapper Dan(was it named for Dan Bonner?) game his senior year; I also saw Magic Johnson in the same game, but don't remember if it was the same year; probably still have the program around the house somewhere.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 08, 2013, 09:35:12 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 07, 2013, 10:33:56 PM
Quote from: BUBeaverFan on April 07, 2013, 10:14:21 PM
UT-Arlington arena 2 miles from Cowboy Stadium. 7,000 seating capacity sounds like a good option for DIII, DII championships in 2014. I know Salem is set to host but it seemed like a good thing this year to have all three together.
The new arena is better than Texas Hall, where you literally played on a stage of an auditorium.

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2006/12/unbeaten-ut-dallas-tops-d-i-school

I still don't like detracting from Salem and the really long drawn out schedule.  We lost some momentum.

Why do we need our championship experience "validated' at the venue of another classification?  Lacrosse is one thing.  Hoops is different.
If validation means double the Salem attendance and potentially better television coverage, validate away. 

I don't understand the D1 hate.  If D3 is about the student-athlete experience, every D3 student I've met loves the D1 game and would be more than happy to share in some of their spotlight.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on April 08, 2013, 10:26:40 AM
In terms of the validation comment, I think validation is something the fans consider but I don't think it's on the minds of the teams.  These guys would love to have the opportunity to rub shoulders with some of the top people in the game if basketball in general every year. Not only are there coaching greats there but think of the dozens of former players hanging around. Seems like a great idea to me.  A lot of the D3 coaches take advantage of this every year as a chance to hang with their peers, I don't see why it would be a bad thing to have the players get that same experience.

That being said, the schedule would definitely need some tweaking.  The NESCAC doesn't start practices until 11/1 every year, maybe the rest of the country does the same thing and we push games back 2 more weeks.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?

Wow, you really did disengage didn't you? It was at Phillips Arena (Atlanta Hawks) which seats about 18,200. I believe Pat reported an attendance for the D-III game was about 6,700. From all accounts it was a good crowd that was into the game. The Georgia Tech pep band provided music and entertained.

I'm not opposed to this setup at all, but the scheduling is going to be a bear to overcome. I'm not sure the best way to do it.

- Shift regular season back to align dates with D-I? Now your starting the D-III season in mid-December. Many conferences align schedules with their women's programs for travel/doubleheader purposes, so that messes that up.
- Extend D-III season beyond the current 19 weeks? Not in line with D-III philosophy and probably wouldn't be approved by a majority of schools. Puts a larger strain on athletic staff, trainers, budget, etc. Plus you open up a can of worms from other sports that might want longer seasons.

How do you format a 6-round tournament?
- Ideally you would find a way to play the entire Final Four in one place, like Friday semifinals and a Sunday final, but will the NCAA brass go for that? Especially if you do the same for D-II? Doubtful.
- Play a single first round game, then a four-team pod and another four-team pod before the final for a four-week long tournament? Not bad, but now someone is probably playing a national semifinal on their home floor. That's probably not good.
- How about an 8-team pod, then a 4-team pod, then the final? Fewer opportunities to host. Still playing a semifinal on a home court.

I liked it (and so did Dan Wetzel (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--brilliant-decision-by-ncaa-to-host-division-ii-iii-title-games-in-final-four-city-221424582.html;_ylt=AsNIRkSeSCPzUgT1ap9tpZoLcykA;_ylu=X3oDMTFoZnA0Y2I3BG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGhvcgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFCbG9nSW5kZXg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)), but the logistic hurdles are going to be big, if this is going to be a regular thing.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 08, 2013, 10:39:37 AM
Pardon my cynicism, but I respectfully ask you to consider this.  Would Dan Wetzel say something bad about a format or a D-III philosopophical tenet about which he has given 10 nanosecods of serious consideration?

We were one of the added attractions to the celebration.  If Wheaton IL had made the Finals, then the schedule would have been challenged.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 08, 2013, 10:45:46 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?

Wow, you really did disengage didn't you? It was at Phillips Arena (Atlanta Hawks) which seats about 18,200. I believe Pat reported an attendance for the D-III game was about 6,700. From all accounts it was a good crowd that was into the game. The Georgia Tech pep band provided music and entertained.

I'm not opposed to this setup at all, but the scheduling is going to be a bear to overcome. I'm not sure the best way to do it.

- Shift regular season back to align dates with D-I? Now your starting the D-III season in mid-December. Many conferences align schedules with their women's programs for travel/doubleheader purposes, so that messes that up.
- Extend D-III season beyond the current 19 weeks? Not in line with D-III philosophy and probably wouldn't be approved by a majority of schools. Puts a larger strain on athletic staff, trainers, budget, etc. Plus you open up a can of worms from other sports that might want longer seasons.

How do you format a 6-round tournament?
- Ideally you would find a way to play the entire Final Four in one place, like Friday semifinals and a Sunday final  (my it alics  RT), but will the NCAA brass go for that? Especially if you do the same for D-II? Doubtful.
- Play a single first round game, then a four-team pod and another four-team pod before the final for a four-week long tournament? Not bad, but now someone is probably playing a national semifinal on their home floor (I think that UMB benefited from "neutral floors" beginning at the Elite 8 [RT] ). That's probably not good.
- How about an 8-team pod, then a 4-team pod, then the final? Fewer opportunities to host. Still playing a semifinal on a home court.I liked it (and so did Dan Wetzel (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--brilliant-decision-by-ncaa-to-host-division-ii-iii-title-games-in-final-four-city-221424582.html;_ylt=AsNIRkSeSCPzUgT1ap9tpZoLcykA;_ylu=X3oDMTFoZnA0Y2I3BG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGhvcgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFCbG9nSW5kZXg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)), but the logistic hurdles are going to be big, if this is going to be a regular thing.

Thanks for the comments. +1!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 10:50:23 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?

The game was at Philips Arena (home of the Atlanta Hawks) and the attendance for the D3 games was reported at 6,500 - all in the lower bowl with the upper level curtained off. Here is a photo I saw yesterday in a Yahoo article.

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Fbt%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FlQ2yL39gLMENslA3k3DiUQ--%2FYXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTQxMA--%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Fos%2F388%2F2013%2F04%2F07%2FDivision-III-crowd-jpg_220817.jpg&hash=eeecd33c294971abefbbaaa404f46be1573b600d)

From reading around these parts since this format was announced, it seemed like this would be a one-time deal. Considering the reaction to the actual event, I'm not so sure. Consider this from UMHB's Ken DeWeese:
Quote"If this format doesn't become permanent then we are not doing a service to the student athletes in Division II and Division III level," said Mary Hardin-Baylor coach Ken DeWeese. "This is the greatest atmosphere in the world for college basketball players. Each team should have the opportunity to aspire to it, regardless of where the Final Four is.
"For Division II and Division III, this is the best thing that has happened."

I am also against a stand-alone national championship game so if the NCAA wants to make this a regular or semi-regular thing I think it has to come at the expense of Salem with the semi-final games being played at the DI Final Four on Friday.

As for a return to the way things have been in Salem or a modified All-NCAA Final Four, I am indifferent so long as the tournament schedule can be adjusted so that the championship game is not played five weeks after the tournament starts.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 08, 2013, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?

Wow, you really did disengage didn't you? It was at Phillips Arena (Atlanta Hawks) which seats about 18,200. I believe Pat reported an attendance for the D-III game was about 6,700. From all accounts it was a good crowd that was into the game. The Georgia Tech pep band provided music and entertained.

I liked it (and so did Dan Wetzel (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--brilliant-decision-by-ncaa-to-host-division-ii-iii-title-games-in-final-four-city-221424582.html;_ylt=AsNIRkSeSCPzUgT1ap9tpZoLcykA;_ylu=X3oDMTFoZnA0Y2I3BG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGhvcgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFCbG9nSW5kZXg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)), but the logistic hurdles are going to be big, if this is going to be a regular thing.
Logistics schmistics, this is worth doing.

Imagine if the final four was in the home state of one of the D3 schools, or even if one of the D1 final four teams shared a state with a D3 team. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Bucket on April 08, 2013, 11:01:31 AM
Nice piece on the game by John Feinstein in today's Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/willy-stuff-helps-amherst-to-division-iii-national-title/2013/04/07/595e54de-9fc8-11e2-82bc-511538ae90a4_story.html
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 11:09:31 AM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?

Wow, you really did disengage didn't you? It was at Phillips Arena (Atlanta Hawks) which seats about 18,200. I believe Pat reported an attendance for the D-III game was about 6,700. From all accounts it was a good crowd that was into the game. The Georgia Tech pep band provided music and entertained.

I liked it (and so did Dan Wetzel (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--brilliant-decision-by-ncaa-to-host-division-ii-iii-title-games-in-final-four-city-221424582.html;_ylt=AsNIRkSeSCPzUgT1ap9tpZoLcykA;_ylu=X3oDMTFoZnA0Y2I3BG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGhvcgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFCbG9nSW5kZXg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)), but the logistic hurdles are going to be big, if this is going to be a regular thing.
Logistics schmistics, this is worth doing.

Imagine if the final four was in the home state of one of the D3 schools, or even if one of the D1 final four teams shared a state with a D3 team.

I just said the logistic hurdles were big. I didn't say impossible or not worth doing.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: realist on April 08, 2013, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 09:57:06 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to having all the championships together, but the D3 Final 4 and championship game has to be played the same weekend. I didn't like the Elite8 and Final Four played one weekend and thw Final a different weekend. Most importantly and probably the biggest complaint, it can't drag on so long.

BTW, where was the game played, whats the capacity and what was the attendence like? Atmosphere?

Wow, you really did disengage didn't you? It was at Phillips Arena (Atlanta Hawks) which seats about 18,200. I believe Pat reported an attendance for the D-III game was about 6,700. From all accounts it was a good crowd that was into the game. The Georgia Tech pep band provided music and entertained.

I liked it (and so did Dan Wetzel (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--brilliant-decision-by-ncaa-to-host-division-ii-iii-title-games-in-final-four-city-221424582.html;_ylt=AsNIRkSeSCPzUgT1ap9tpZoLcykA;_ylu=X3oDMTFoZnA0Y2I3BG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dGhvcgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFCbG9nSW5kZXg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)), but the logistic hurdles are going to be big, if this is going to be a regular thing.
Logistics schmistics, this is worth doing.

Imagine if the final four was in the home state of one of the D3 schools, or even if one of the D1 final four teams shared a state with a D3 team.

That has already happened.   :)  Calvin won D3 championship in 2000 the same year Michigan State won D1 championship.   

MSU at one time was a member of the MIAA.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
D1 Final Four Sites
2014---Cowboys Stadium, Dallas, TX
2015---Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, IN
2016---Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
D1 Final Four Sites
2014---Cowboys Stadium, Dallas, TX
2015---Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, IN
2016---Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX

A DIII Final Four at Hinkle Fieldhouse? Oh baby! Bankers Life Fieldhouse (Pacers) and IUPUI would be the downtown options. UIndy (DII) is south of downtown but not a good venue.

With all due respect to our national runner-up, a DIII Final Four in the state of Texas two out of three years isn't a great idea. However, Indianapolis would fabulous. Maybe a rotation between Salem and the DI Final Four based on location could be considered?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:40:44 AM
Quote from: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
D1 Final Four Sites
2014---Cowboys Stadium, Dallas, TX
2015---Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, IN
2016---Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX

A DIII Final Four at Hinkle Fieldhouse? Oh baby! Bankers Life Fieldhouse (Pacers) and IUPUI would be the downtown options. UIndy (DII) is south of downtown but not a good venue.

With all due respect to our national runner-up, a DIII Final Four in the state of Texas two out of three years isn't a great idea. However, Indianapolis would fabulous. Maybe a rotation between Salem and the DI Final Four based on location could be considered?
I wouldn't have guessed that Atlanta was a very good D3 location either. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
The West Coast is way overdue for a Final Four, its been 18 years now and will be 22 by the 2017 final.  The NCAA has held every Final Four since 1997 in a dome, Phoenix is really the only West Coast location with a dome now.


Recent Final Four sites aren't exactly D3 friendly locations with Atlanta, New Orleans and Houston the last 3.  Combined with the 3 above that's one trip to the middle of 'D3 country' in 6 years.  The six years previous it was 3. 

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:40:44 AM
Quote from: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
D1 Final Four Sites
2014---Cowboys Stadium, Dallas, TX
2015---Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, IN
2016---Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX

A DIII Final Four at Hinkle Fieldhouse? Oh baby! Bankers Life Fieldhouse (Pacers) and IUPUI would be the downtown options. UIndy (DII) is south of downtown but not a good venue.

With all due respect to our national runner-up, a DIII Final Four in the state of Texas two out of three years isn't a great idea. However, Indianapolis would fabulous. Maybe a rotation between Salem and the DI Final Four based on location could be considered?
I wouldn't have guessed that Atlanta was a very good D3 location either.

What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:40:44 AM
Quote from: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
D1 Final Four Sites
2014---Cowboys Stadium, Dallas, TX
2015---Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, IN
2016---Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX

A DIII Final Four at Hinkle Fieldhouse? Oh baby! Bankers Life Fieldhouse (Pacers) and IUPUI would be the downtown options. UIndy (DII) is south of downtown but not a good venue.

With all due respect to our national runner-up, a DIII Final Four in the state of Texas two out of three years isn't a great idea. However, Indianapolis would fabulous. Maybe a rotation between Salem and the DI Final Four based on location could be considered?
I wouldn't have guessed that Atlanta was a very good D3 location either.

What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?
how much of that crowd is going to travel to Salem?

Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:41:56 AM
The West Coast is way overdue for a Final Four, its been 18 years now and will be 22 by the 2017 final.  The NCAA has held every Final Four since 1997 in a dome, Phoenix is really the only West Coast location with a dome now.


Recent Final Four sites aren't exactly D3 friendly locations with Atlanta, New Orleans and Houston the last 3.  Combined with the 3 above that's one trip to the middle of 'D3 country' in 6 years.  The six years previous it was 3. 
the new Metrodome should be a strong contender to host sometime between 2017 and 2020. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 11:55:35 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:40:44 AM
Quote from: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
D1 Final Four Sites
2014---Cowboys Stadium, Dallas, TX
2015---Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, IN
2016---Reliant Stadium, Houston, TX

A DIII Final Four at Hinkle Fieldhouse? Oh baby! Bankers Life Fieldhouse (Pacers) and IUPUI would be the downtown options. UIndy (DII) is south of downtown but not a good venue.

With all due respect to our national runner-up, a DIII Final Four in the state of Texas two out of three years isn't a great idea. However, Indianapolis would fabulous. Maybe a rotation between Salem and the DI Final Four based on location could be considered?
I wouldn't have guessed that Atlanta was a very good D3 location either.

What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?

And the other factor is that if we're talking about the DIII Final Four potentially moving with the DI Final Four, it becomes more of a destination and travel for the fanbases should be considered. As a single game and possibly a one time event, that wasn't considered for this year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: crufootball on April 08, 2013, 11:58:39 AM
Just getting back in from Atlanta and the best way to describe the weekend is WOW.

Obviously I would have preferred a different result but I was beyond excited for our guys to get to play in that environment. Now I have never been to Salem so I have nothing to compare it too but to me our guys got to feel "big time" for a change and I wish more often other D3 players could get that type of spot light on them.

That being said I agree that things would have to be altered to make this a permanent switch but it is something that needs to be considered no matter the location. As a Texan, I think it would be great if 2 out of the next 3 years the D3 championship was in our backyards, perhaps it would help get more attention for all of D3 sports in the South since we normally are the ones that always have to get on a double digit hour bus ride or a plane to get the games.

P.S. My personal favorite feature might have to be the Mary Hardin Baylor and Amherst hot dogs they sold at one of the concession stands.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 08, 2013, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?
how much of that crowd is going to travel to Salem?

I guess all I'm asking is would people be as impressed with the turnout if only 4,000 showed up in Dallas or Houston?


....and for all I know they might get more in Dallas or Houston.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?
how much of that crowd is going to travel to Salem?

I guess all I'm asking is would people be as impressed with the turnout if only 4,000 showed up in Dallas or Houston?


....and for all I know they might get more in Dallas or Houston.

The best chance for success (as defined as a large crowd) is to make it easy on the people in town for the DI Final Four. This was accomplished in two important ways this weekend: free admission and the proximity of the two venues.

The NCAA could offer free admission no matter where the game is played but they have no control over where the buildings are within the host city. The fact that the Georgia Dome and Philips Arena are adjacent to one another likely played at least a small role in the overall attendance number.

I see Indianapolis and Houston as opportunities to replicate the experience, but Arlington is not set up as well. I know it was mentioned that UT-Arlington is only a couple miles away but even that distance is likely to keep some neutral butts out of the seats.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on April 08, 2013, 12:23:15 PM
For me it's not so much about how many people show up for the actual game.  I think you are going to do better for a free game at the D1 tournament than you will at Salem most years in general, but I don't think that really is the point.  To me it's all about giving the players the best possible experience and I think being able to attend and be recognized during the Final Four is huge.  I encourage anybody that hasn't checked out the Amherst tumblr site to do so http://lordjeffs.tumblr.com/    There's a lot there that can't be duplicated in Salem. 

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 08, 2013, 12:24:09 PM
Given the success this had this year, I think we as Division III MUST figure out a way to make it happen again, a little more on our terms. Perhaps we can give a little and have a four-week tournament and a 20-week season, then push the start of the season back as well to line up better. Of course, women's basketball would have to move its season as well, because of the way conference play works.

However, I agree that there may be a novelty aspect to this, and it might not be the solution for the next 20 years, so I would say let's aim toward doing it in 2015 and 2016 as another two-year trial run and see how it does. I am sure it would do well in Indianapolis. But how about Houston?

I was very impressed with how many Amherst people came out. More Amherst fans in that building than in all their other Final Four trips combined. I would like us to try to do this again. I came in a cynic and came out convinced that we need to give it another try. If the two years works, then keep extending that deal until it no longer becomes a big deal.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 08, 2013, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?
how much of that crowd is going to travel to Salem?

I guess all I'm asking is would people be as impressed with the turnout if only 4,000 showed up in Dallas or Houston?


....and for all I know they might get more in Dallas or Houston.
last time they had the final four in Houston, most of the non-game festivities were right next to the NBA arena at the downtown convention center.  I would suspect this would be the case for most of the cities with domes outside of downtown.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 01:47:51 PM
I wonder if the NCAA would continue to commit the time and resources they did if it becomes a regular thing.  If it happens, after a few years I could imagine pretty soon the D-III championship experience getting trimmed and trimmed until it's not what it was this year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 08, 2013, 02:30:25 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 01:47:51 PM
I wonder if the NCAA would continue to commit the time and resources they did if it becomes a regular thing.  If it happens, after a few years I could imagine pretty soon the D-III championship experience getting trimmed and trimmed until it's not what it was this year.

I agree that's a possibility, which is why I would only advocate we extend the concept out for a couple years at a time.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 08, 2013, 04:11:03 PM
If given the option would the D3 Presidents/AD's give approval if the D3 tournament schedule couldn't change?  (In other words, still a drawn out 6 week thing)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AndOne on April 08, 2013, 04:34:46 PM
Quote from: madzillagd on April 08, 2013, 12:23:15 PM
For me it's not so much about how many people show up for the actual game.  I think you are going to do better for a free game at the D1 tournament than you will at Salem most years in general, but I don't think that really is the point.  To me it's all about giving the players the best possible experience and I think being able to attend and be recognized during the Final Four is huge.  I encourage anybody that hasn't checked out the Amherst tumblr site to do so http://lordjeffs.tumblr.com/    There's a lot there that can't be duplicated in Salem.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 08, 2013, 12:24:09 PM
Given the success this had this year, I think we as Division III MUST figure out a way to make it happen again, a little more on our terms. Perhaps we can give a little and have a four-week tournament and a 20-week season, then push the start of the season back as well to line up better. Of course, women's basketball would have to move its season as well, because of the way conference play works.

However, I agree that there may be a novelty aspect to this, and it might not be the solution for the next 20 years, so I would say let's aim toward doing it in 2015 and 2016 as another two-year trial run and see how it does. I am sure it would do well in Indianapolis. But how about Houston?

I was very impressed with how many Amherst people came out. More Amherst fans in that building than in all their other Final Four trips combined. I would like us to try to do this again. I came in a cynic and came out convinced that we need to give it another try. If the two years works, then keep extending that deal until it no longer becomes a big deal.

Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 08, 2013, 02:30:25 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on April 08, 2013, 01:47:51 PM
I wonder if the NCAA would continue to commit the time and resources they did if it becomes a regular thing.  If it happens, after a few years I could imagine pretty soon the D-III championship experience getting trimmed and trimmed until it's not what it was this year.

I agree that's a possibility, which is why I would only advocate we extend the concept out for a couple years at a time.

I'm responding in reverse order of the associated quotes..........

* No matter whether the NCAA would eventually "trim" the experience to some degree, we are getting ahead of ourselves in attempting to look that far into the future. Keeping the horse ahead of the cart would require that this year's experience needs to be duplicated as closely as possible as soon a possible which, of course, would be next year. Rather than worrying about what "trimming" might be done years done the road, what needs to be accomplished in the short term is how best to take advantage of, and capitalize on, this year's success next year.

* If I am not mistaken, Pat has historically been a pretty staunch proponent of the Salem experience. Has anyone been to Salem more often? For him to say "we as Division III MUST figure out a way to make it happen again" is a pretty strong endorsement of continuing this year's setup, even if only on a short term "trial" basis.

* As madzillagd indicated, the main thing is giving the players the best possible experience. Not only do I agree, but I think that part of providing the "best" experience for the players involves making it as easy and pleasurable for the player's families, friends, and fans to be part of the experience in being there to support and cheer on the players, while at the same time having options available for them during times other than when the games are actually taking place.

I was fortunate enough to be present for the Elite Eight in Salem this year, and wouldn't have missed it. The Salem/Roanoke area is nice, and the people, both around town and at the arena were very hospitable. However, there were certainly some drawbacks:

* Due to the limited number of airlines/flights going into Roanoke, tickets are very expensive. A ticket from Chicago to Atlanta is only about 38% of a ticket to Salem. Hotel rooms might well be more expensive in any big city, but with the savings on air fare, you have a lot of room to work with. And, if I would have gone to Atlanta, a rental car wouldn't have been necessary.

* Not a whole lot to do in Salem all day Sat. Considered visiting Appomattox, but that was about a 3 1/2 hour round trip drive, not including time spent at the site. The downtown of almost any big city would certainly provide a bundle of worthwhile things to do during "down time" between games.

* Yikes! Salem is in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. 58 degrees and sunny on Sat, then 6 inches of snow on Sun with the airport closed and all flights cancelled from about noon Sun to 10:00 Mon morning. Probably a rare occurance at this time of year, but thats not gonna happen in Atlanta, Dallas, or Houston.  :)   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on April 08, 2013, 05:23:09 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 05:01:49 PM

   CONF      TEAMS      CON TOT   
   NESCAC      3       10-2   

???

5-0
3-1
3-1
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 08, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
If you're showing the tournament results by conferences, you have a couple mistakes. The GNAC went 0-1 with Albertus Magnus losing in the first round. The MACC went 1-1 with Alvernia beating Albertus Magnus in the first round and then losing to St. Mary's.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 05:53:38 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on April 08, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
If you're showing the tournament results by conferences, you have a couple mistakes. The GNAC went 0-1 with Albertus Magnus losing in the first round. The MACC went 1-1 with Alvernia beating Albertus Magnus in the first round and then losing to St. Mary's.

I will work on it, my math skills and memory are a little off...Sorry.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 05:57:04 PM
Quote from: madzillagd on April 08, 2013, 05:23:09 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 08, 2013, 05:01:49 PM

   CONF      TEAMS      CON TOT   
   NESCAC      3       10-2   

???

5-0
3-1
3-1

I was working on it before the final, forgot to adjust accordingly...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on April 08, 2013, 06:39:16 PM
Does being a side show at Atlanta beat being a centerpiece at Salem?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: frank uible on April 08, 2013, 06:39:16 PM
Does being a side show at Atlanta beat being a centerpiece at Salem?

That's a matter of perspective. I'm guessing the Amherst and UMHB players and fans did not feel like a side show on bit. To the college basketball fan at large and the national media, it probably was. To that I would say the side show is leaps and bounds better than irrelevance. Division III and II were part of the public consciousness in a way that has not been matched by tournaments past.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: commish on April 08, 2013, 07:33:28 PM
FWIW - Just a quote from someone who was there ...

Though his Crusaders came out on the short end of the score, Mary Hardin-Baylor head coach Ken DeWeese felt strongly about continuing to play for the DIII title in such locales. So much so, in fact, that after reporters in the postgame news conference had finished with their questions, DeWeese asked to get on his "soapbox."

"NCAA was great," he began. "If this format does not become permanent, we're not doing the service for the student-athletes in the Division II and Division III levels that we possibly can. This is the greatest atmosphere in the world. If we don't, I think we're slighting our student-athletes.

"The experiences these guys have had, the way the NCAA people and the city of Atlanta have treated us, it is something each team should have an opportunity to aspire to get to. For Division II and Division III in college basketball, this is the best thing that's ever happened."
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AndOne on April 08, 2013, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: frank uible on April 08, 2013, 06:39:16 PM
Does being a side show at Atlanta beat being a centerpiece at Salem?

Frank----

Aside from what I suspect are very much right on point posts from Ziggy and Commish above, why don't you address letters to the basketball teams at Amherst and UMHB and ask them 2 questions:

1. Did you feel like a sideshow in Atlanta.
2. Was your experience in Salem any more enriching than the feeling you were left with in Atlanta?

They are the only people with the answers that really matter.  ;)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on April 08, 2013, 09:01:59 PM
So it's settled. Salem should be scuttled as soon as feasible.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 08, 2013, 09:02:41 PM
I have re-assessed this from an ASC-Centric perspective.

Having the Elite8 and Final 4 games at "neutral site" Salem helps the ASC.

We have the best chance of getting home games thru the first three rounds.

In the 16 years of the ASC participation in D-III, the men have never hosted in the second weekend.  This gives them the best shot at neutralizing the geographical disparities.

Go for it!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on April 08, 2013, 09:18:22 PM
If certain colleges or conferences find themselves in the minority and sufficiently object to this new reality, then they can decline to participate - possibly like NESCAC does in football. They will survive as will the majority without them.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 08, 2013, 10:34:11 PM
Quote from: ziggy on April 08, 2013, 12:20:40 PM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 12:05:09 PM
Quote from: AO on April 08, 2013, 11:48:38 AM
Quote from: sac on April 08, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
What can't be answered is how much of that crowd was there for the novelty of it and how much would return each year if the option were available.  How much of that crowd was there because Phillips Arena is right across the street and right in the middle of NCAA festivities?
how much of that crowd is going to travel to Salem?

I guess all I'm asking is would people be as impressed with the turnout if only 4,000 showed up in Dallas or Houston?


....and for all I know they might get more in Dallas or Houston.

The best chance for success (as defined as a large crowd) is to make it easy on the people in town for the DI Final Four. This was accomplished in two important ways this weekend: free admission and the proximity of the two venues.

The NCAA could offer free admission no matter where the game is played but they have no control over where the buildings are within the host city. The fact that the Georgia Dome and Philips Arena are adjacent to one another likely played at least a small role in the overall attendance number.

I see Indianapolis and Houston as opportunities to replicate the experience, but Arlington is not set up as well. I know it was mentioned that UT-Arlington is only a couple miles away but even that distance is likely to keep some neutral butts out of the seats.

They'll still stay in Downtown Dallas hotels and drive out to the stadium.  There's not enough rooms near the football stadium to house an event like this.  They could play downtown and still have lots of people around.

I also suspect, as (if) the tradition builds, that more people will show up.  Why not bring your HS team or your youth team down to watch some free championship basketball?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 08, 2013, 10:46:50 PM
Hixon said similar nice things about the experience in Atlanta in his postgame news conference but also took pains to note that the format as it stands doesn't work and needs to be changed.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: frank uible on April 09, 2013, 09:16:46 AM
If the NESCAC football season ran for 5+ months as the NESCAC basketball season does, the NESCAC Presidents would throw a hissy fit.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 09, 2013, 11:23:40 AM
I really don't think you have to change the schedule.  Making 2 teams wait 3 weeks to play in the title game is not a big deal.   The final two teams are always going to have the depth to get a good run during practice.  Plus, you give fans and families a better opportunity to make travel arrangements.   Don't listen to Tom Petty, waiting is the easiest part.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 09, 2013, 12:19:03 PM
If the tickets were free, was it general admission/sit where you want?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 09, 2013, 12:27:31 PM
Sort of.

Certain areas of the arena were closed, like the upper bowl and one section reserved for the coaches attending the NABC conference.

There was a designated section for each team's fan section and the fans were initially concentrated on one side of the court for television purposes.  But beyond those parameters, I think people could sit where they wanted.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Andy Archibald on April 09, 2013, 01:58:35 PM
I absolutely loved having the game in the same location as the D1 Final Four. Although i have never been to a championship game in Salem, i cant imagine how the atmosphere could compare to the D1 location. Getting to go downtown and visiting Bracket Town, catching the Braves game on Saturday night made it one awesome weekend.

I sure hope the NCAA can find a way to make this the norm going into the future!

Also, it was great finally getting to meet Pat before the game started.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 09, 2013, 04:37:18 PM
Hopefully I've corrected my mistakes.  If not, please inform me!



   CONF      TEAM      REC   
   NESCAC      Amherst       5-0   
   ASC      MHB       4-1   
   CCIW      NCC       4-1   
   MIAC      St. Thomas       4-1   
   CSAC      Cabrini       3-1   
   NESCAC      Middlebury       3-1   
   CAC      St. Mary's       3-1   
   NESCAC      Williams       3-1   
   MIAA      Calvin       2-1   
   E8      Ithaca       2-1   
   CCIW      IWU       2-1   
   NEAC      Morrisville       2-1   
   ODAC      RMC       2-1   
   ODAC      VWC       2-1   
   NWC      Whitworth       2-1   
   NCAC      Wooster       2-1   
   MACC      Alvernia       1-1   
   LAND      Catholic       1-1   
   USAC      CNU       1-1   
   ASC      Concordia-TX       1-1   
   SUNYAC      Cortland St.       1-1   
   CC      Dickinson       1-1   
   UAA      Emory       1-1   
   NCAC      Ohio Wes.       1-1   
   SUNYAC      Plattsburgh St.       1-1   
   LEC      RIC       1-1   
   UAA      Rochester       1-1   
   WIAC      Stevens Point       1-1   
   UAA      Wash. U.       1-1   
   CCIW      Wheaton       1-1   
   WIAC      Whitewater       1-1   
   NEWMAC      WPI       1-1   
   GNAC      Albertus Mag.       0-1   
   NATHCON      Aurora       0-1   
   SAA      Centre       0-1   
   CCC      Curry       0-1   
   MACF      Delaware Valley       0-1   
   IIAC      Dubuque       0-1   
   NECC      Elms       0-1   
   MASCAC      Fitchburg St.       0-1   
   LL      Hobart       0-1   
   ODAC      HSC       0-1   
   NAC      Husson       0-1   
   OAC      Marietta       0-1   
   NEWMAC      MIT       0-1   
   UMAC      Northwestern       0-1   
   AMCC      P.S. Behrend       0-1   
   NJAC      Ramapo       0-1   
   ODAC      Randolph       0-1   
   SCIAC      Redlands       0-1   
   HCAC      RHIT       0-1   
   NJAC      Rutgers       0-1   
   SLIAC      Spalding       0-1   
   NEWMAC      Springfield       0-1   
   MWC      St. Norbert       0-1   
   PrAC      St. Vincent       0-1   
   CUNYAC      Staten Island       0-1   
   E8      Stevens       0-1   
   SKY      SUNY-Purchase       0-1   
   HCAC      Transylvania       0-1   
   SCAC      Trinity       0-1   
   CAC      Wesley       0-1   
                  
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 09, 2013, 04:53:48 PM


   REGION      RECORD   
   Atlantic       0-4   
   East       7-7   
   Great Lakes       5-6   
   Mid-Atlantic       9-7   
   Midwest       8-8   
   Northeast       13-11   
   South       11-11   
   West        8-7   
            
            
   Pool A       40-41   
   Pool B       0-1   
   Pool C       21-19   
            
            
   Home record       24-6 (1st Rd.)   
   Home record       10-6 (2nd Rd.)   
   Home record       6-2 (3rd Rd.)   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 09, 2013, 04:57:28 PM


   CONF      CON TOT   
   NESCAC       11-2   
   CCIW       7-3   
   ASC       5-2   
   MIAC       4-1   
   ODAC       4-4   
   CSAC       3-1   
   CAC       3-2   
   NCAC       3-2   
   UAA       3-3   
   MIAA       2-1   
   NEAC       2-1   
   NWC       2-1   
   E8       2-2   
   SUNYAC       2-2   
   WIAC       2-2   
   CC       1-1   
   LAND       1-1   
   LEC       1-1   
   MACC       1-1   
   USAC       1-1   
   NEWMAC       1-3   
   AMCC       0-1   
   CCC       0-1   
   CUNYAC       0-1   
   GNAC       0-1   
   IIAC       0-1   
   LL       0-1   
   MACF       0-1   
   MASCAC       0-1   
   MWC       0-1   
   NAC       0-1   
   NATHCON       0-1   
   NECC       0-1   
   OAC       0-1   
   PrAC       0-1   
   SAA       0-1   
   SCAC       0-1   
   SCIAC       0-1   
   SKY       0-1   
   SLIAC       0-1   
   UMAC       0-1   
   HCAC       0-2   
   NJAC       0-2   
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 09, 2013, 10:36:15 PM
These teams were never regionally ranked...they didn't fair too well.



   CONF      TEAM      REC   
   AMCC      P.S. Behrend       0-1   
   CUNYAC      Staten Island       0-1   
   IIAC      Dubuque       0-1   
   MACF      Delaware Valley       0-1   
   MASCAC      Fitchburg St.       0-1   
   NAC      Husson       0-1   
   NATHCON      Aurora       0-1   
   UMAC      Northwestern       0-1   
   NEAC      Morrisville       2-1   
   NECC      Elms       0-1   
   ODAC      RMC       2-1   
   SAA      Centre       0-1   
   SCAC      Trinity       0-1   
   SCIAC      Redlands       0-1   
   SLIAC      Spalding       0-1   

These teams were the only team to represent their conference and knocked the regular season conference winner out of the NCAA tourney.



   CONF      TEAM      REC   
   AMCC      P.S. Behrend       0-1   
   CC      Dickinson       1-1   
   GNAC      Albertus Mag.       0-1   
   IIAC      Dubuque       0-1   
   MACF      Delaware Valley       0-1   
   MASCAC      Fitchburg St.       0-1   
   NAC      Husson       0-1   
   OAC      Marietta       0-1   
   SKY      SUNY-Purchase       0-1   


AMCC-Hilbert and La Roche tied for 1st.
CC-Franklin and Marshall won the league.
GNAC-Anna Maria topped the league.
IIAC-Buena Vista and Luther tied for 1st.
MACF-DeSales won the league.
MASCAC-Westfield State won the league, but Fitchburg State actually finished 4th with a losing conference record.
NAC-Maine-Farmington won the league
OAC-Capital won the league.
SKY-SUNY-Old Westbury won the league.  Purchase finished 13-4, 1/2 game behind Farmingdale and Mount St. Mary's.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 10, 2013, 07:51:01 AM
Greatly appreciated research, Greek!

Thanks for compiling the information.

As usual, I want to remind everyone that the ASC went 4-1 against non-ASC opponents.  UMHB knocked Concordia TX (CTX) out in the second round, the earlier of the two intra-conference rematches in the playoffs.  (NCC knocked off IWU in the third round, when one might expect the rematch among foes from the same region of an 8-region tourney.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 10, 2013, 09:46:44 PM
I've finally had a chance to listen/watch the conversation Pat, Dave, and Gordon had regarding this tournament (an excellent conversation, btw).  All made fantastic points and I'll chip in a couple here. 

First, that they entered this year's tournament and the whole Atlanta thing with some fairly serious skepticism and came away from the weekend enthusiastic about continuing this in the future tells you how exceptional the weekend was.  If it was just ok or a little better than what the Salem experience, I don't think the conversation is the same.  It had to be truly outstanding in order to get that kind of position reversal.  If those gentlemen are sold on this, then that's good enough for me. 

Obviously going forward you can't continue on with a tournament that takes a month and a half start to finish.  I couldn't stay invested in this year's tournament as a casual observer because there was just zero momentum to it.  Maybe that's a me problem, but I don't think I'm alone on that.  Whether the answer is delaying the start of the regular season by a couple of weeks or delaying the start of the tournament, getting this thing down to a 4-week event is necessary.  Realizing that doing so involves getting D-III women and the men and women of D-II on board, it seems that the overwhelming sentiment is that this needs to happen.  I think putting the D-II and D-III games in the same city on the same weekend as the D-I championship was a boon and they should probably want to be doing the same thing on the women's side at all levels.  If the event was that good for everybody involved, getting everybody on board maybe won't be as daunting as it seems. 

Selfishly, I would love to see this happen in Indy the next time around as I'm a stone's throw away.  Division III would definitely have to sacrifice a little bit of their calendar to make it happen...you're going to wind up with basketball significantly overlapping the spring sports calendar, but again, I think that's a small price to pay if the event was THAT good, which it seems to have been. 

Hopefully they can get this worked out and the D-I Final Four weekend can be an annual celebration of championship basketball for all divisions.  Again, I come back to having so many people who follow and cover D-III who went into the 2013 championship tournament skeptical and were then sold on this as a proof positive sign that this was good for our game.  It may take a couple of years to get back to it, but that planning should start ASAP so that we can make this a regular thing starting in 2015. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 10, 2013, 10:07:53 PM
Not so fast on making this a 'regular' thing.  How much of the great weekend was due to its uniqueness?

Pat has expressed the opinion that this should definitely be tried again on an experimental basis, but that there is no assurance the crowds, etc., would continue once the novelty wears off - maybe, maybe not.

And it just cannot be another 6-week tourney!! :o  As sac expressed it, "it feels like basketball season ended a month ago."
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 10, 2013, 10:39:40 PM
Very fair regarding the is it special because it is unique aspect.  With almost everything, it's hard to beat the first time.  This is a little different, IMO, because of the skepticism that a lot of people had going into it.  I think the NCAA treats the D-II and D-III games and those teams every year the way they treated them in Atlanta, the event could very well be annually awesome. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 10, 2013, 11:39:40 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on April 10, 2013, 09:46:44 PM
  Division III would definitely have to sacrifice a little bit of their calendar to make it happen...you're going to wind up with basketball significantly overlapping the spring sports calendar, but again, I think that's a small price to pay if the event was THAT good, which it seems to have been. 
What's a spring sport?  We're supposed to get a foot of snow tomorrow.

The momentum was absolutely a "you" problem.  The momentum built up a lot more for the 16 teams that would have ordinarily been eliminated after the first weekend.  The momentum also built up a lot more for Amherst and Mary-Hardin Baylor who brought great crowds to Atlanta. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 11, 2013, 12:22:01 AM
The momentum was not just a "you" problem. This tournament definitely dragged.

I hope the NCAA would always treat the other two title games the same way it did this year, but I am sure that cost a lot of money. If it ever started scaling back, that's when I would worry.

The distance for both teams to Atlanta was somewhat counterbalanced by the extra week. In 2015, at least, Indianapolis has a chance at being a more central location. Houston in 2016 is unlikely to be so. But ... seriously, we need to do this again.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on April 11, 2013, 04:03:39 AM
Yep, there was no momentum at all.

My thoughts on how to incorporate the additional 3 weeks at the end of the season from usual... first would be making the tournament 4 weeks with just the first round on Sat/Sun then 4 team pods the second weekend, then Elite Eight/Final Four in Salem for week 3 then the championship the 4th week.
Next I'd push the start of the season back a week so it overlaps less with football. I know I didn't pay attention to preseason/first few games because I was still focused on football. Also it would allow the season to start after Thanksgiving rather than play a game or two then have a holiday.
The last week schools can throw in as needed to avoid having games during finals or any other important school events. After all, this is D3 where they are truly student-athletes
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 10:36:57 AM
I think nearly everyone will agree that we need the Final Four and Championship game needs to be played on the same weekend. A lot of posters have felt the attendence suffered at Salem because it wasn't thee destination without the Final there.  Personally, I would have loved to see the quarters and semis even if it risked not seeing my team in Atlanta.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 11, 2013, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 10:36:57 AM
I think nearly everyone will agree that we need the Final Four and Championship game needs to be played on the same weekend. A lot of posters have felt the attendence suffered at Salem because it wasn't thee destination without the Final there.  Personally, I would have loved to see the quarters and semis even if it risked not seeing my team in Atlanta.

Welp.  I've not been to Salem for a championship event (shame on me, I know), and while I'm sure that Salem is lovely, it's just not going to be able to offer the same experience as Atlanta or Indy or Houston or any of the other major cities that can host Final Fours (there aren't that many).  And especially if the NCAA is going to back the D-II and D-III title games in the way that they did this year.  You kind of feel bad for Salem in a way as they have done a fantastic job of sort of carving out a space as a D-III TitleTown, but they just can't compete with a large city and the backdrop of the D-I championship. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 12:09:03 PM
The NCAA is shelling out in real dollars what Salem contributes in "sweat-equity".

Pat Coleman's comment about budget cuts is pertinent.

Thinking the unthinkable, what does happen if a court suit goes thru with the need to "pay" the players?

The Big Ten commented about contemplating the D-III model instead.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: madzillagd on April 11, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
I have a very hard time believing the NCAA would not work out a model that is in their favor.  I could see them paying for the next couple of years where bids have already been completed.  However, for sites that have yet to be determined I could easily see them telling those potential cities - as part of hosting the D1 Final Four - you (the city) are responsible for picking up the tab and hosting the D2 and D3 games and/or requiring them to pay at least half of the bill.  That's not going to prevent any city from bidding.  Also, just because the games were free this year doesn't mean they have to be free in the future.  Slap a $5 ticket on a single game or $10 for both etc. and I still think you'd get about the same amount of fans as you would if it was free. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 11, 2013, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 12:09:03 PM
The NCAA is shelling out in real dollars what Salem contributes in "sweat-equity".

Pat Coleman's comment about budget cuts is pertinent.

Thinking the unthinkable, what does happen if a court suit goes thru with the need to "pay" the players?

The Big Ten commented about contemplating the D-III model instead.
The budget cuts would be taken out of each D1 athletic department.  I doubt that revenues would decrease or the portion given to D3 would decrease.   The big ten isn't going D3, that's just preposterous.  They love the TV money too much.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 12:38:11 PM
Wally,

You completely misunderstood my post. Some argued that attendence dropped because the Final wasn't being played the same weekend. If you don't have the opportunity to see your team win a championship or at least witness a Final, there is less appeal. It doesn't matter where the Elite 8 and semis are...there is no champioship game.

Sorry to confuse you.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 11, 2013, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: madzillagd on April 11, 2013, 12:18:36 PM
I have a very hard time believing the NCAA would not work out a model that is in their favor.  I could see them paying for the next couple of years where bids have already been completed.  However, for sites that have yet to be determined I could easily see them telling those potential cities - as part of hosting the D1 Final Four - you (the city) are responsible for picking up the tab and hosting the D2 and D3 games and/or requiring them to pay at least half of the bill.  That's not going to prevent any city from bidding.  Also, just because the games were free this year doesn't mean they have to be free in the future.  Slap a $5 ticket on a single game or $10 for both etc. and I still think you'd get about the same amount of fans as you would if it was free.

You had me until that last sentence. I think $5 or $10 more to the common D-I basketball fan hanging around on Sunday would be a roadblock. I think they'll just go to a bar and drink the $10 instead.

And really, there's no reason to charge admission. You can't even come close to covering the cost of the event with $5 ticket, so why bother. It won't even make a dent.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 11, 2013, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 10:36:57 AM
I think nearly everyone will agree that we need the Final Four and Championship game needs to be played on the same weekend. A lot of posters have felt the attendence suffered at Salem because it wasn't thee destination without the Final there.  Personally, I would have loved to see the quarters and semis even if it risked not seeing my team in Atlanta.

Simple solution if we do this again is to have the quarterfinal/semi in two different locations.  One in the East, one in the Midwest. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 11, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

An elite 8 in one location and final four in another still brings the problem of having two difficult and expensive travel weeks.  Something I think did affect attendance in Salem.  I was thinking split the elite 8 geographically to reduce travel for 5 or 6 of the teams.

Or better yet, add the Sweet sixteen and have 8 teams at one location, one in the East one in the Midwest.  With the winners heading to wherever the D1 Final is that season.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
Quote from: sac on April 11, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

An elite 8 in one location and final four in another still brings the problem of having two difficult and expensive travel weeks.  Something I think did affect attendance in Salem.  I was thinking split the elite 8 geographically to reduce travel for 5 or 6 of the teams.

Or better yet, add the Sweet sixteen and have 8 teams at one location, one in the East one in the Midwest.  With the winners heading to wherever the D1 Final is that season.
Okay, East is the Northeast, East, Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic Regions.  Except you probably might not host the event in New Jersey.

The West is the South, Great Lakes, Midwest and West Regions.  This only continues to concentrate the "Bracket of Death"...no dilution from the other schools on the west side of the Hudson River.

How much was the previous arrangement broken?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 11, 2013, 05:15:32 PM
Here's what I would do (I think. Subject to revision at any time.)...

Weekend 1 - First Round and Second Round, Four team pods, on campus of "top" seed (assuming adequate facility, geography, yada, yada).

Weekend 2 - Round of 16 and Round of 8, Four team pods, on campus of "top" seed (assuming adequate facility, geography, yada, yada).

Weekend 3 - National semifinals, two different neutral courts, best possible mid-point location chosen once we know the participating teams. We'd probably have to have a list of schools to declare ahead of time that they are willing and able to host a neutral site game on this weekend if called upon. As an example, this year, perhaps it would have been Wash U. hosting the St. Thomas/UMHB game and maybe Baldwin-Wallace hosting the NCC/Amherst game. Maybe the NCAA can allow host schools to keep a bigger share of the pie as an incentive for being willing to host a neutral site game.

Weekend 4 - National title game

So for all but 4 teams, the tournament schedule would be exactly what they've been used to. You avoid letting someone play a national semifinal game on their home floor. If you get lucky, those neutral site semifinal games may be within driving distance so that teams and fans don't have to take two flights in two weeks. If you're unlucky, you get Whitworth vs. Virginia Wesleyan and it doesn't matter where you play because everyone is flying anyway.

Bad news, no Salem.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 11, 2013, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
Quote from: sac on April 11, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
And still have a stand-alone Final?

How about the Elite 8 in one location and the Final Four and Championship the following weekend.

An elite 8 in one location and final four in another still brings the problem of having two difficult and expensive travel weeks.  Something I think did affect attendance in Salem.  I was thinking split the elite 8 geographically to reduce travel for 5 or 6 of the teams.

Or better yet, add the Sweet sixteen and have 8 teams at one location, one in the East one in the Midwest.  With the winners heading to wherever the D1 Final is that season.
Okay, East is the Northeast, East, Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic Regions.  Except you probably might not host the event in New Jersey.

The West is the South, Great Lakes, Midwest and West Regions.  This only continues to concentrate the "Bracket of Death"...no dilution from the other schools on the west side of the Hudson River.

How much was the previous arrangement broken?

You could still cross teams into the different brackets.  It might even save you a couple flights you might have had to get teams to Salem.

The idea I've put up there is just to get more fans closer to an Elite 8/Semi-final, so its not played in an empty Salem Civic Center every year.   More fans, not all of them.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 11, 2013, 06:33:09 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 12:38:11 PM
Wally,

You completely misunderstood my post. Some argued that attendence dropped because the Final wasn't being played the same weekend. If you don't have the opportunity to see your team win a championship or at least witness a Final, there is less appeal. It doesn't matter where the Elite 8 and semis are...there is no champioship game.

Sorry to confuse you.

No, not confused.  I just don't think that smaller crowds in Salem should have been a big surprise.  Like you've said, without the championship game, there just won't be quite the same amount of interest, even if you've got twice as many teams at that site as you would at a traditional D-III final four.  I'm also not sure that smaller crowds in Salem are a reason to not play the championship during the D-I championship weekend, at least for as long as that D-II/D-III championship doubleheader gets the kind of treatment (for both fans and teams) that it got in Atlanta. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 10:34:25 PM
We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   ;D
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 11, 2013, 10:50:16 PM
Yeah, I just noticed that, too.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 12, 2013, 12:41:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 10:34:25 PM
We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   ;D

Football posters sometimes bemoan "the saddest day of the year" when football boards get demoted.  Unless I'm totally misremembering, that usually takes a couple of weeks after Salem.  This was FOUR days after the final!

In fairness, the top four general categories are all football.  Of the top ten conference boards (by views), only CCIW and MIAA (men's) basketball break the monopoly of football.

The viewable stats on this site don't say, so I'm curious: what is the most viewed baseball board and the most viewed women's basketball board; and are either in the top, say, 30 overall sites?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 12, 2013, 12:59:53 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 12, 2013, 12:41:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 10:34:25 PM
We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   ;D

Football posters sometimes bemoan "the saddest day of the year" when football boards get demoted.  Unless I'm totally misremembering, that usually takes a couple of weeks after Salem.  This was FOUR days after the final!

Sigh. Instead of making crap up, why not check? 25 seconds on Google got me this:

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=7639.5

Three days after the Stagg Bowl.

Listen, as late as this tournament went, Ypsi, there is no way I could leave Posting Up above baseball any longer. This is already three weeks later in the season, right? Give me a break.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 12, 2013, 01:12:58 AM
Sorry, Pat. :-[

It IS much longer into the spring season than usual.

That post was meant as a shot at the football-centric posters, not at you.  (I'm sure if some bizarre circumstance delayed the football final to New Years Day, you would quickly shift to basketball at the top of the boards.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 12, 2013, 08:06:47 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on April 11, 2013, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 11, 2013, 10:36:57 AM
I think nearly everyone will agree that we need the Final Four and Championship game needs to be played on the same weekend. A lot of posters have felt the attendence suffered at Salem because it wasn't thee destination without the Final there.  Personally, I would have loved to see the quarters and semis even if it risked not seeing my team in Atlanta.

Welp.  I've not been to Salem for a championship event (shame on me, I know), and while I'm sure that Salem is lovely, it's just not going to be able to offer the same experience as Atlanta or Indy or Houston or any of the other major cities that can host Final Fours (there aren't that many).  And especially if the NCAA is going to back the D-II and D-III title games in the way that they did this year.  You kind of feel bad for Salem in a way as they have done a fantastic job of sort of carving out a space as a D-III TitleTown, but they just can't compete with a large city and the backdrop of the D-I championship.

My thought in this post is that you were stictly talking about Salem, itself, not the fact that there was no championship game played there this year. It seemed to ke you were comparing Salem to Atlanta, Indy and Houston. My point is that without a Final being played, the attendence suffered.

In hockey, D1 basketball, D3 in previous years, and probably other sports The Final Four is a destination, no matter where it is played. I think it can and ultimately should be that way.


[/quote]
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 12, 2013, 10:04:08 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on April 12, 2013, 12:59:53 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 12, 2013, 12:41:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 11, 2013, 10:34:25 PM
We know that basketball season is finally over.

The baseball message boards just got moved to the top of the order, tonight, April 11, 2013!   ;D

Football posters sometimes bemoan "the saddest day of the year" when football boards get demoted.  Unless I'm totally misremembering, that usually takes a couple of weeks after Salem.  This was FOUR days after the final!

Sigh. Instead of making crap up, why not check? 25 seconds on Google got me this:

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=7639.5

Three days after the Stagg Bowl.

Listen, as late as this tournament went, Ypsi, there is no way I could leave Posting Up above baseball any longer. This is already three weeks later in the season, right? Give me a break.
Sorry, guys.  However if UMHB had won the tourney, I might have wanted to keep the Hoops message board on top for another day or two!   ;)

Pigs almost flew!
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 12, 2013, 11:14:47 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 12, 2013, 08:06:47 AM
My thought in this post is that you were stictly talking about Salem, itself, not the fact that there was no championship game played there this year. It seemed to ke you were comparing Salem to Atlanta, Indy and Houston. My point is that without a Final being played, the attendence suffered.

In hockey, D1 basketball, D3 in previous years, and probably other sports The Final Four is a destination, no matter where it is played. I think it can and ultimately should be that way.

You're right that the final four in sports where we have become accustomed to having a final four is a destination.  I think what we saw last weekend is that maybe just maybe having the D-III title game being staged in the same city (emphasis on city) and against the same backdrop of the D-I championship weekend might be better.  So much better that we may in fact want to let go of the traditional D-III final four. 
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Titan Q on April 12, 2013, 11:40:42 AM
This is from an e-mail an IWU parent, who took his son to Atlanta for Final Four weekend, sent to me yesterday.  Just another perspective on this...

Bob,

No question to me that having the DII and DIII Championships on the Sunday of the Final Four weekend is absolutely the way to go. It makes getting to the championship game such a huge deal when those teams are side-by-side with the DI Final Four teams and coaches. Salem does a nice job – but the atmosphere and the environment is in no way close to what it was this past weekend. It just draws so much more attention to the DII and DIII games with the fans there and the TV coverage. Having those games on Sunday – "The Wait" day - is the perfect filler for a city full of basketball junkies. I'd say there were close to 10,000 fans at Phillips Arena for those games with far more casual fans than Salem would ever draw. So I say start the DIII season later, run it longer, give them a mini Christmas break – whatever it takes to fix the post season and make this a permanent arrangement. We were sitting with Ron Rose at the Amherst – MHBU game and he completely agrees that is the way to go.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 12, 2013, 11:45:42 AM
So why not just play the semis on Friday and Final on Sunday?

Fri. 12:00 pm D3 semi
Fri. 2:30 pm D3 semi

Fri. 6:00 pm D2 semi
Fri. 8:30 pm D2 semi

Sat. D1 semis

Sun. D3 and D2 Finals

Mon. D1Final
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 12, 2013, 11:48:02 AM
I agree with all of that, although I don't want to start the season after Thanksgiving weekend and I don't want to call a formal week off during Christmas because we definitely want kids to play games during times when they can't miss class.

I would be in favor of the season starting the day after Thanksgiving as a jumping-off point to this conversation, then let us play a 20-week season instead of 19 because we have at least two weeks off of classes in the winter anyway. That 20th week becomes the fourth week of the tournament. But we can't then let CBS push the NCAA Tournament back a week to fit its needs like it did this year. That would screw us all up.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 12, 2013, 11:49:19 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 12, 2013, 11:45:42 AM
So why not just play the semis on Friday and Final on Sunday?

Fri. 12:00 pm D3 semi
Fri. 2:30 pm D3 semi

Fri. 6:00 pm D2 semi
Fri. 8:30 pm D2 semi

Sat. D1 semis

Sun. D3 and D2 Finals

Mon. D1Final

Might be more expense than the NCAA is willing to put up with, involves an extra day in the arena. This year there was a Hawks game on that day, I believe. They had events for the players late Thursday night, and I think during the day Friday as well.

And also, this would leave no meaningful role for Salem, and I don't think that's a good idea either.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 12, 2013, 11:57:32 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 12, 2013, 11:45:42 AM
So why not just play the semis on Friday and Final on Sunday?

Fri. 12:00 pm D3 semi
Fri. 2:30 pm D3 semi

Fri. 6:00 pm D2 semi
Fri. 8:30 pm D2 semi

Sat. D1 semis

Sun. D3 and D2 Finals

Mon. D1Final

While it would be ideal, I don't think you're going to get that level of commitment from the NCAA. I just don't think they're going to bring 8 lower division teams into the site and rent out an arena for two full days.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 12, 2013, 12:28:02 PM
I previously suggested having the Elite 8 at Salem.

It has also been discussed by us the idea of moving the Final Four out of Salem, so why not near theD1 Final Four?

I'm just trying to have my cake and eat it too...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 12, 2013, 02:18:56 PM
Just getting back to all of this and thought I should put in my two-cents.

I have been a major skeptic... but I am all for the DIII title game being at the D1 Final Four as long as we are dragging out the season(s) and the experience the student-athletes got this time around is not diminished (police escorts, taking part the annual Salute Dinner with the D1 teams, press conference available via satellite, autograph sessions, introduced to the Final Four and Championship crowd at the Georgia Dome, etc.). The NCAA made sure this wasn't an afterthought for the most part (I have heard from some that the promotions outside of the arena and Georgia Dome could have used a bit more push and the local media didn't seem to care that much - I didn't see one camera at either of the D3 or D2 games Sunday - heck, I am not sure I saw the local papers either).

There are some things that have to be tackled like the schedule. Again, I think the four-week playoff schedule can be done mainly because of the women don't jump on board with their own version, we can still crown a D3 winner in the third weekend. However, I do not believe as has been suggested prior that a one-round game be played in the first weekend. We saw from this schedule that the two weeks off for the bye teams isn't fair or the right thing to do (and we aren't going to see a 64-team tournament for a long time). I suggest we go with a two-round weekend (pods) the first weekend, the Sweet 16 solo the second, then the Elite 8 and Final 4 the following (assuming in Salem).

I don't think multiple sites for the Elite 8 weekend is going to happen. The NCAA isn't going to pay for the extra facility needs and such and questionable travel; the NCAA and others loved having eight teams in one location because it made the event even better, so why split it up; if no other facility has been good enough to supplant Salem, why would they be good enough to host a split Elite 8? (By the way, Salem has another year on its bid and I have not heard anything to say anyone else has considered bidding on it.); you also need the flexibility of Salem hosting the championship if something falls through at the D1 site; also remember these sites would have to be determined a year or more ahead of time, so that will affect other decisions as well.

As for the Final Four being held at the D1 Final Four... not going to happen. There are the costs of housing four more teams from D2 and D3 and the events surrounding the entire weekend doesn't allow adding another round of games. This model is based on the men's lacrosse model and they don't play the final four for all divisions on Memorial Day Weekend either - nor will they.

There are costs to keep in mind for the future. The NCAA basically rented out the Phillips Arena for this, so each city has to have an arena somewhat close by that will work and the NCAA has to be willing to pay those extra costs every year. There were extra flights, hotel rooms, transportation, and practice and shoot-around facilities that needed to be found - granted some would have done it for free - but there are more costs and logistics to keep in mind.

Could the games be held at the same place at the D1 games? No... CBS has too much production work they are doing on Sunday and I really don't think it is fair for the teams to play in an arena not even close to what they are used to (the sight lines are ridiculous in a dome) nor does 6,000 people in the Georgia Dome feel the same as 6,000 people in Phillips Arena. This pretty much means we need another arena for these games.

I also think the games probably have to stay free. I don't think the attendance numbers dictate the NCAA can off-set costs or make money on this endeavor. Charging $5 this year would have brought in a little over $31,000 for the D3 game or over $70,000 for the entire day. I really can't imagine that would have offset much let alone the rental. That being said... any amount of money is a difference maker - I just don't think you get the same attendance if the game isn't free.

Quickly about Salem's attendance that maybe is forgotten... when it is the Final Four... schools tend to bus in students to see the games. They really didn't do that this year, instead students from at least UMHB got bussed in for Atlanta. That affects attendance to be sure and something certainly to be considered outside of the fact that games starting at Noon and teams from around the country are going to affect attendance.

As for the overall schedule, we have to get the season shifted and as noted that isn't just for men's basketball. Starting maybe the Friday or Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend might work, but remember that this anomaly with CBS, the Masters, and the NCAA probably is only for a few years, though who knows since this was the first time they shifted everything (and good thing because the opening round of the Masters last Thursday would have been LOUSY). I would be willing to see a 20 week season, but nothing longer and we have to keep the post-season more concise - six weeks every year is not worth the sacrifice just for something "cool."

One major thing about all of this... decisions have to be made in the VERY near future for the '14-'15 season (this isn't going to happen for next year). If we are going to do this and thus the schedules get shifted, schools and such need to know now so that tip-off tournaments and other events (besides even tackling conference schedules) get adjusted as well. As one who helps organize an early season tournament, we are already talking about the "what if" should the season get shifted for 2014 and how that will affect when we hold the tournament. This can NOT be even close to a last minute or late decision to shift things or the beginning of the seasons are going to be a mess.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 12, 2013, 03:07:17 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 12, 2013, 02:18:56 PM
I don't think multiple sites for the Elite 8 weekend is going to happen. The NCAA isn't going to pay for the extra facility needs and such and questionable travel; the NCAA and others loved having eight teams in one location because it made the event even better, so why split it up; if no other facility has been good enough to supplant Salem, why would they be good enough to host a split Elite 8? (By the way, Salem has another year on its bid and I have not heard anything to say anyone else has considered bidding on it.); you also need the flexibility of Salem hosting the championship if something falls through at the D1 site; also remember these sites would have to be determined a year or more ahead of time, so that will affect other decisions as well.

Quickly about Salem's attendance that maybe is forgotten... when it is the Final Four... schools tend to bus in students to see the games. They really didn't do that this year, instead students from at least UMHB got bussed in for Atlanta. That affects attendance to be sure and something certainly to be considered outside of the fact that games starting at Noon and teams from around the country are going to affect attendance.
Wouldn't 2 sites for elite8/final four possibly save several flights?  If 3 of the 4 are NESCAC teams again...

This way you're not playing at 11am and the fan buses are more likely to make the trip.

I don't think I'd support it as I'd like to see 2 teams from the same conference in the title game if they deserved it.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 12, 2013, 03:32:40 PM
I was in Pittsburgh yesterday and this morning. It's hosting the Frozen Four (D1 hockey title game) this year.  The games are at the Pittsburgh Penguins new arena and admission is free. That surprised me a little, though it's understandable when you look at the teams.  I doubt there's any casual fan interest in Yale, Quinnipiac, UMass-Lowell and St. Cloud State hockey.  I guess it shows that the NCAA is more interested in having some level of attendance than having a minor level of cost recovery, even in cases where there isn't a big money making event along side the title game.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Just Bill on April 12, 2013, 03:49:47 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on April 12, 2013, 03:32:40 PM
I was in Pittsburgh yesterday and this morning. It's hosting the Frozen Four (D1 hockey title game) this year.  The games are at the Pittsburgh Penguins new arena and admission is free. That surprised me a little, though it's understandable when you look at the teams.  I doubt there's any casual fan interest in Yale, Quinnipiac, UMass-Lowell and St. Cloud State hockey.  I guess it shows that the NCAA is more interested in having some level of attendance than having a minor level of cost recovery, even in cases where there isn't a big money making event along side the title game.

Free? Are you sure?

NCAA.com shows tickets for sale: http://www.ncaa.com/championships/icehockey-men/d1#!tickets_hospitality

Ticketmaster is selling tickets and StubHub has tickets for re-sale at $75.

They do a pre-sale campaign beginning a year in advance to sell tickets. Tickets for the 2014 Frozen Four are already on sale.

I'm not buying that they sold advanced tickets for a year, and then because they got four non-marquee teams, just decided to open up the gates for free.

Update:

http://wesa.fm/post/frozen-fours-three-games-are-just-start-fun

"Tickets to all three games are sold out, and online ticket resellers are asking anywhere from $20 to $200 for a seat at the semifinal games and more for the championship tilt Saturday. But for those who can’t get a ticket there is plenty of hockey action that can be taken in for free."
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 12, 2013, 05:46:54 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on April 12, 2013, 03:32:40 PM
I was in Pittsburgh yesterday and this morning. It's hosting the Frozen Four (D1 hockey title game) this year.  The games are at the Pittsburgh Penguins new arena and admission is free. That surprised me a little, though it's understandable when you look at the teams.  I doubt there's any casual fan interest in Yale, Quinnipiac, UMass-Lowell and St. Cloud State hockey.  I guess it shows that the NCAA is more interested in having some level of attendance than having a minor level of cost recovery, even in cases where there isn't a big money making event along side the title game.

Here's a crazy fact for you, this is the first Frozen Four in over 50 years without at least one of the major college hockey powers......Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, North Dakota, Denver, Boston College, Boston Univ.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: kiko on April 12, 2013, 10:11:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 12, 2013, 02:18:56 PM
There are some things that have to be tackled like the schedule. Again, I think the four-week playoff schedule can be done mainly because of the women don't jump on board with their own version, we can still crown a D3 winner in the third weekend. However, I do not believe as has been suggested prior that a one-round game be played in the first weekend. We saw from this schedule that the two weeks off for the bye teams isn't fair or the right thing to do (and we aren't going to see a 64-team tournament for a long time). I suggest we go with a two-round weekend (pods) the first weekend, the Sweet 16 solo the second, then the Elite 8 and Final 4 the following (assuming in Salem).

Remember that the two-week layoff for teams with byes was only one implication of the single-round-per-week schedule that we saw in the first three weeks of this year's tournament.  The other was that the tournament became much more regionalized than in a three-week format because the tournament committee was reduced to 500-mile pairings rather than creating pods that could encompass teams from a 1,000 mile radius.  As wonderful as the Atlanta experience was for the two lucky ducky finalists, from my perspective, the hyper-regional construct of the bracket -- which the committee, as you know, had no real way around based on who qualified this year -- was a giant step backward.

With this in mind, if we end up with a four week format, as many here are suggesting, and we know that the final weekend will involve only the two championship game qualifiers, I would vastly prefer a 1-2-2-1 construct where the single round is played the first weekend.  This would give the committee much more flexibility to separate teams than they had this year.  There weren't really any issues with powerhouses meeting in the first weekend this year, because with 31 games to pair up, you've got a lot of options.  But where the issues did arise were in rounds two (mostly) and three.  Scheduling a pod in the second weekend rather than an individual round would alleviate some of what we saw this year.

Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 12, 2013, 10:41:54 PM
Totally agree with kiko.

I do not understand the repeated emphasis on how unfair the two weeks off for the bye teams was.  Good grief, the two bye teams met for the title in Atlanta!! :o  (Must have meant it was unfair to everyone else!)

IF we link up with the d1 FF, 1-2-2-1 seems the best to me.  (Actually, I think a Fri-Sun FF in the d1 location is even better, but agree that it would never happen.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 13, 2013, 07:13:58 AM
I'm pretty sure thats what "they" meant...that it was unfair for everyone else. Advantage, bye teams. At least thats how I took it. If it was guaranteed the top two teams got byes, I wouldn't have much problem with it, but it doesn't.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 13, 2013, 08:52:15 AM

Yeah, you have to do pods the first weekend or the bracket options become might truncated.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: kiko on April 13, 2013, 10:32:10 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on April 13, 2013, 08:52:15 AM

Yeah, you have to do pods the first weekend or the bracket options become might truncated.

If you are choosing between the first two weekends, where one gets a pod and one gets a single game, pods are actually more critical in the second weekend.  You can find driveable matchups fairly easily when there are 60 teams playing in the first weekend.  The only constraint is that you need to construct the bracket in such a way that you ensure one of the teams that survives until Round 2 is the midpoint team, geographically speaking.  You of course want to ensure that hosting privileges in the second weekend are not based solely on geography, but the number of options will be fairly decent.

If you were to flip this, and have pods on the first weekend and single games in the round-of-sixteen, it would still be a regional bracket as everything would be constructed so that teams in the same group-of-eight from the original bracket would have to be within 500 miles of one another.  Said differently, it was the need to eliminate flights in the third round single game matchups rather than the first- or second-rounders that drove this year's bracket to be so regional.  The later you have single-game weekends scheduled in a tournament with a 500 mile geography requirement, the more regional the bracket will look.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: gordonmann on April 13, 2013, 11:14:41 AM
Just Bill:

Thanks for clarifying and correcting. I saw a sign in the Pittsburgh airport that read "Frozen Four - Free admission."  I made too big an assumption based on that sign, I guess.  Maybe the free admission is for something related, like the hockey version of Bracket Town.

Update: Apparently this is what the sign was referencing, not the games.

http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=664288

Sorry for the mistake.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 13, 2013, 04:27:38 PM
My point about the single games in the first weekend is that two teams will have to wait two weeks to play games and I am not exactly sure that is fair... based on the fact that Amherst got a huge amount of time to rest what they admitted was clearly injured players and time to regroup... also, many have said UMHB was a FAR different team than the team that played in the conference tournament and those two weeks certainly allowed them to get things back on track.

If it was the top two teams in the country that were getting byes... it wouldn't be as big deal due to the fact it was determined on merit. But sometimes these byes are based on geography only. There is always a real chance that a team in the northwest and a team in the south get the byes only because of location... not merit (i.e. UMHB). Heck, there is a chance that if UMHB WON their conference title game, Concordia may have missed out on the tournament and UMHB would be playing the first weekend against Trinity... that could have changed their run dramatically. I just don't think it is fair to give teams two weeks off when we have byes in place.

I understand that you get a little truncated with the Sweet 16 in terms of distance... however, I think you have more flexibility in terms of what the bracket is going to create and flights that will be allowed in that round... than you will on the first weekend. Honestly, you are going to be allowed more flights for a single-game Sweet 16 than the opening weekend of games, so both ways you are going to see some squeezing in terms of distance. However, to keep a team from having two weeks off, I will take a slightly squeezed Sweet 16 which in reality won't be nearly as bad as what we were forced into this year.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: kiko on April 13, 2013, 08:04:10 PM
Sounds like we are starting from different points... you are assuming the NCAA would be more lenient in allowing flights for teams not on geographic islands in the sweet sixteen round.  I am assuming the desire to avoid this expense will override any flexibility, and that if the decision comes down to  (a) investing in a flight and maintaining bracket balance, or (b) saving on that expense and skewing the bracket, then, well, we'll all be skewed.  ::)

From my perspective, the byes certainly helped the two finalists this year, but I hope we treat this as what it is -- a data point.  I don't think we can conclude from one year's results that the teams with the byes have an overwhelming advantage.  They helped this year, but I suspect some teams would not respond well to two weeks off.  (And I don't think you are suggesting that the byes were the major factor in these two schools landing in the final weekend, just that the byes came at a very good time for both of this year's bye teams.)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 13, 2013, 08:41:12 PM
Third weekly ranking, before the one that we did not see. Has anyone seen the final ranking?  Here are the results in the final week of the regular season.


South – NCAA data sheet
1 Virginia Wesleyan 16-5 19-6           Enters NCAA as Pool C      18-6/21-7
2 Hampden-Sydney 18-3 22-3         Enters NCAA  as Pool C  19-4/ 23-4
3 Mary Hardin-Baylor 21-4 21-4   Assume that they win the ASC tourney, 24-4/24-4
4 Christopher Newport 17-5 18-5     Enters NCAA as Pool A   20-5/21-5
5 Emory 17-6 17-6                       Finishes reg season Pool C 19-6/19-6
6 Concordia (Texas) 18-4 20-5  Assume they beat UTD & lose to UMHB in the ASC tourney (Pool C?) 20-5/22-6  (Record against RR teams would be 3-3 instead of 4-2.)
7 Texas-Dallas 19-6 19-6          Loses to CTX in second round of ASC; 20-7/20-7 
8 Randolph 14-5 20-5               Enters NCAA as Pool C bid 15-6/ 21-6

How do we know that CTX, with two more "results" versus regionally ranked teams, doesn't get a Pool C bid?  Remember that they also have a win over UWSP!

I think that Pool "C" CTX goes to Pool A Trinity just as they did.

Does UMHB leap passed VWC or HSC in the regional rankings?

I don't think that UMHB's winning the ASC tourney changes anything.

If anything, UMHB does not go on the road in Round 3.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 14, 2013, 03:15:23 PM
I did get the final regional rankings and have posted accordingly in the last six-plus weeks... here is how the South Region finished:

Virginia Wesleyan
Mary Hardin-Baylor
Emory
Christopher Newport
Hampden-Sydney
Concordia (TX)
Randolph-Macon
Randolph

IF Concordia had lost, they most likely fall behind RMC and maybe behind Randolph... who was actually, probably the last team into the tournament. So, Concordia could have been sitting on a very fragile bubble with less impressive criteria than Randolph had (off the top of my head) thanks in part to RMC's inclusion in the rankings thus boosting's Randolph's vRRO.

As you can see... UMHB finished second, HSC fell down three spots. I think UMHB's winning the conference could have even given them #1 in the region considering VWC lost in the conference tournament title game and that could have meant Whitworth (who finished fourth in their region) would have come to UMHB... though clearly #2 traveling to #4 did happen per Whitworth having a stronger SOS, I believe.

Per the first round... I am not saying the byes got Amherst and UMHB to the finals... but I think they had a significant affect (or is it effect... crap). Amherst was able to rest Toomey, Workman and others who Coach Hixon has several times admitted were pretty banged up and injured. They don't get an extra week to rest (Hixon kept them out of practice for about five days that bye week) and they may not be as strong and games against RMC could have been closer giving more chance for something to go the other direction.

From what everyone has told me and from what I could see, UMHB was not that solid a team in the conference tournament and the bye week CLEARLY gave them a chance to get back on the same page together. Playing that first week and most likely against Trinity who they barely beat in overtime 57-56 at the beginning of the season (Trinity was a better team late than early as well) could have been a factor and at least kept them less fresh (granted, if Concordia had gotten into the tournament as a Pool C... UMHB would have still gotten a bye).

Also per the first round byes... I am not that comfortable saying to teams that their reward is two weeks off. It didn't happen this year, but it could easily screw up a team and I am not that convinced that is worth the "reward" of not playing the first round. I also heard from several people that while their teams certainly benefited from the byes... neither Amherst or UMHB were all that happy to get the byes - meaning if this comes to a vote of what coaches think... they aren't going to accept having two weeks off between games, even if that means a slight challenge in the Sweet 16 per travel.

(Also, Pat and I saw coming a nasty possibility when Middlebury was still undefeated in late January. If the Panthers were able to stay undefeated through conference play and then were upset in the NESCAC quarterfinals <which take place the final weekend of conference games for everyone else>, they could have easily been rewarded with just one loss a first round bye. THAT would have meant the Panthers would have had the final weekend of the regular season off and then the first weekend of the tournament off - THREE WEEKS BETWEEN GAMES! That is a risky chance that either the committee doesn't reward Middlebury the bye because of the risk of the time off and someone else gets it just because or Middlebury has to figure out what to do with three weeks between games.)

Something else to keep in mind... I don't mind a more geographically base of games in the Sweet 16 if we can avoid some of that in the opening rounds. There is a better chance of some tough match-ups due to lack of teams in a region in the first round than any of us are going to want to see. I don't disagree that the Sweet 16 won't be perfect, but by that point of a tournament we are going to start seeing tough match-ups anyway... why screw up the beginning just for the hope we don't screw up the middle? We can avoid a bracket of death in the opening weekend with pods more than we can eventually with tough match-ups anyway in the Sweet 16. Because of travel and geography and regions we are going to eventually have to tackle these tough match-ups, even with a pod on the second weekend... I say better to avoid them until the Sweet 16 by giving the committee more flexibility in the opening weekend... then risk a tough match-up like St. Norbert/Wheaton or IWU/Transylvania in the first weekend.

Of course... I could change my mind tomorrow... but I also saw avoiding two weeks off for a team is more important to the coaches than avoiding what will probably happen anyway in the Sweet 16.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 14, 2013, 03:19:13 PM
A couple of other things to keep in mind for the future that can change a lot of things...

Besides the primary and secondary criteria basically merging with all games count if you play 70% in region, they are doing away with "once ranked always ranked" for vRRO. The regionally ranked teams will only be per who was ranked in the previous ranking (again, the first regional rankings will not have vRRO as always and the second rankings will have a vRRO per who was ranked in Week 1). I suspect this could lead to an extra regional ranking in January since the vRRO won't be flooded with results, but that hasn't been decided.

If you want to learn more, tune into my chat with Mike DeWitt during the season finale of Hoopsville: www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2012-13/april08 (http://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2012-13/april08)
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 14, 2013, 05:52:07 PM
Thanks, Dave.

Glad that it is over.  Looking forward to some sanity next season.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Ken Deweese on April 14, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
First TIME EVER to post  on D III Hoops.  I want to make clear that the experience UMHB Basketball had in Salem was excellent,  The people there were GREAT!  Their organizational structure is extremely effective, they are good, very good, at administering basketball tournaments.  I certainly did not mean to cast any doubt whatsoever on the great job the people of Salem do hosting the D III Final Four by saying that we need to keep the Final 2 playing at the D I Final Four site.  My comments were strictly based on the Final 4 being the grandest of basketball stages and the fact that the UMHB experience was remarkable from the NCAA staff to the Atlanta hosts.  At no point did I mean that Salem should be out of the picture.  I apologize for not making the point clear but the time for the losing coach in the NCAA press conference is not exactly unlimited.

As for being the only Texas team to make it to the final game, it is and will be hard for it to happen very often since we (Texas teams) always play each other in the 1st and 2nd rounds.  Until we are put in different parts of the bracket (eliminate the Texas POD), where Texas teams can advance without eliminating each other so early, it will be a very hard road becasue only 1 can survive for tournament advancement.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Not surprisingly, Baylor standout Brittney Griner was taken #1 in the WNBA draft.

I found it more than amusing to hear the national sports people talking about Griner's prospects in the NBA! They were comparing LeBron James to Griner (stats, not talent). Seriously? I don't ever see a woman playing in the NBA, even if there wasn't a WNBA. Griner wouldn't be able to compete in the developmental league. I don't see her putting up solid numbers at the D1 level either. I do believe she could be competitive at the D3 level. She does stand 6'8", if I remember correctly.

This reminds me of the talk about Mia Hamm playing in the MLS. Even she admitted there was no way she could compete.

The physical DNA of a woman is a lot different than a man, obviously.

What do you think?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: hopefan on April 17, 2013, 01:42:04 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Not surprisingly, Baylor standout Brittney Griner was taken #1 in the WNBA draft.

I found it more than amusing to hear the national sports people talking about Griner's prospects in the NBA! They were comparing LeBron James to Griner (stats, not talent). Seriously? I don't ever see a woman playing in the NBA, even if there wasn't a WNBA. Griner wouldn't be able to compete in the developmental league. I don't see her putting up solid numbers at the D1 level either. I do believe she could be competitive at the D3 level. She does stand 6'8", if I remember correctly.

This reminds me of the talk about Mia Hamm playing in the MLS. Even she admitted there was no way she could compete.

The physical DNA of a woman is a lot different than a man, obviously.

What do you think?

What might be more fun to speculate about would be:

liken it to the days of Bobby Riggs and Billy Jean King.. how would Brittany Griner fare agains a pro who is 20 years removed from the game... one on one, half court...

or, interesting to these pages... how would she fare against a current D3 men's center... not even an All American D3 men's center, but, for instance, a 6'6", 6'7" kid who starts for a SLIAC team... I'm not sure... I think I'd go with the SLIAC guy...
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: sac on April 17, 2013, 01:43:18 PM
Remember when ESPN used to talk less and show more actual sports highlights.  I do.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: AO on April 17, 2013, 01:59:08 PM
Quote from: hopefan on April 17, 2013, 01:42:04 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Not surprisingly, Baylor standout Brittney Griner was taken #1 in the WNBA draft.

I found it more than amusing to hear the national sports people talking about Griner's prospects in the NBA! They were comparing LeBron James to Griner (stats, not talent). Seriously? I don't ever see a woman playing in the NBA, even if there wasn't a WNBA. Griner wouldn't be able to compete in the developmental league. I don't see her putting up solid numbers at the D1 level either. I do believe she could be competitive at the D3 level. She does stand 6'8", if I remember correctly.

This reminds me of the talk about Mia Hamm playing in the MLS. Even she admitted there was no way she could compete.

The physical DNA of a woman is a lot different than a man, obviously.

What do you think?

What might be more fun to speculate about would be:

liken it to the days of Bobby Riggs and Billy Jean King.. how would Brittany Griner fare agains a pro who is 20 years removed from the game... one on one, half court...

or, interesting to these pages... how would she fare against a current D3 men's center... not even an All American D3 men's center, but, for instance, a 6'6", 6'7" kid who starts for a SLIAC team... I'm not sure... I think I'd go with the SLIAC guy...
She's slower and weaker than every D3 starting forward I've seen.  It's a silly comparison.  She could play against Men in a pick-up or all star type game without serious defense, but she would not be competitive in a game.   Maybe if she was a 7 footer.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 17, 2013, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: sac on April 17, 2013, 01:43:18 PM
Remember when ESPN used to talk less and show more actual sports highlights.  I do.

Want that about the same time MTV showed videos?  :'(
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: wally_wabash on April 17, 2013, 03:58:39 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on April 17, 2013, 01:13:21 PM
Not surprisingly, Baylor standout Brittney Griner was taken #1 in the WNBA draft.

I found it more than amusing to hear the national sports people talking about Griner's prospects in the NBA! They were comparing LeBron James to Griner (stats, not talent). Seriously? I don't ever see a woman playing in the NBA, even if there wasn't a WNBA. Griner wouldn't be able to compete in the developmental league. I don't see her putting up solid numbers at the D1 level either. I do believe she could be competitive at the D3 level. She does stand 6'8", if I remember correctly.

This reminds me of the talk about Mia Hamm playing in the MLS. Even she admitted there was no way she could compete.

The physical DNA of a woman is a lot different than a man, obviously.

What do you think?

There is an easy, easy, EASY way to answer this question.  Invite her to the predraft camp in Chicago and let her work out with and against other draft prospects.  I'm not talking about personal workouts in Waco where she dribbles around a folding chair and lays the ball in.  Let her go through that camp and evaluate her against NBA-hopeful-level competition.  We don't have to speculate on this.
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 18, 2013, 09:28:11 PM
Probably should be a separate conversation, no?
Title: Re: 2013 Division III NCAA Tournament
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 19, 2013, 10:23:16 AM
I didn't think it was worth opening up a new thread.