Author Topic: MBB: Centennial Conference  (Read 864706 times)

Offline Pat Coleman

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • Administrator
  • All-American
  • *****
  • Posts: 36806
  • Karma: +4443/-2184
  • Check the front page or FAQs before you ask.
    • View Profile
    • D3sports.com
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6765 on: April 26, 2018, 11:18:58 am »
I think I do sometimes criticize but I'm far more likely to say nothing in the cases where it might be called for. You're probably right. :)
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Let's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6766 on: April 26, 2018, 02:26:59 pm »
I think I do sometimes criticize but I'm far more likely to say nothing in the cases where it might be called for. You're probably right. :)

Yeah... kind of where Pat is. There are times one like myself might criticize, but I'm more likely not to say anything at all. To that point, I work hard to develop relationships with coaches for a lot of reasons - mainly to make sure our coverage is the best possible - if I went around being critical all of the time ... that wouldn't work well.

I will defend if I feel defense is warranted. Otherwise, won't say much.

And yes, my comparison wasn't of Dunne and Seretti, it was of a comment made in the same vain about Seretti that is now being posted by Dunne.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline CCHoopster

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
  • Karma: +28/-11
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6767 on: April 27, 2018, 11:14:13 am »
To be fair to Dave, he is not really comparing Dunne and Seretti, he's simply pointing out that wvcfan said the same thing about Seretti that he is saying now about Dunne.  And as the kids would say these days, that message hasn't aged well, as we've seen Seretti have a dominant run.  I will say one other thing, though I'm new to posting, I've lurked for long enough to know this - Dave and Pat aren't going to criticize any coaches on here.  They do such a great job with the D3 site, and having interactions with many of the coaches gets you to know them personally.  Therefore they tend to defend the coaches when something negative gets posted, which i totally understand, just pointing it out.

I know, I was adding to the general topic, not challenging Dave.

Offline CCHoopster

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
  • Karma: +28/-11
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6768 on: April 27, 2018, 11:16:56 am »
Actually, I was more supporting a post or two of mine (along with adding to the general topic of the two coaches in the same breath) from before on the GC hire. No offense to DM intended or challenging anyone. Sorry if it came across as such!

Offline jmcozenlaw

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 588
  • Karma: +65/-32
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6769 on: April 27, 2018, 12:08:58 pm »
I kind of find it hard to believe that choice at Gettysburg was the best option based off of past performance.  I echo the fact that this particular coach has only 1 winning season out of 5 years as a head coach.  And that one winning season came with players he did not even recruit.  You would think that a coach from a smaller division III conference would have applied that was located geographically closer then New York.  These jobs attract hundreds of applications. I scratch my head with this hire.

Not sure you have the best track record with these kinds of things...

It had been awhile since I had seen a post of yours... so I was curious why it stuck out ... then I remembered (was reminded) this nugget:

Nothing against coach Seretti, but he does not have a winning record from PSU Altoona.  He does have head coaching experience which is a plus.  Coach Csensits was a division I assistant with no head coaching experience, so that is an upgrade.  However, Dickinson is a great athletic institution.  Why cant they win?  They won the Centennial conference championship and had their last NCAA tournament appearance back in 1997.  You mean to tell me this is the best coaching candidate that applied?  I really have to wander about Dickinsons administration.  What their thought process is and do they really care about their basketball program like Fand M, Johns Hopkins, Ursinus and Gettysburg does.

I can't blame a poster to a Division III message board for getting a 2009 prediction wrong.........................when "experts", who make their living "knowing all" make preseason picks for the Eagles to come in last place in the division (and win the Super Bowl) and putting the Sixers over/under at 39.5 (and now head into the second round of the playoffs, with a potential conference final appearance four wins away). I'll give wvcfan1 a little break. ;)

Besides, a not-too-be-named-here D-III women's coach went from almost being axed for years worth of very bad behavior......................to recently getting a head coaching job at the D-1 level...............so I'm going to refrain from coaching commentary as (1) I/we know nothing (outside of Pat and Dave) and (2) What I/we think really means nothing at the end of the day. :)

Offline kate

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 2214
  • Karma: +189/-161
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6770 on: May 09, 2018, 05:44:32 pm »
But, JM, that "not to be named head D3 coach" took over a usually so, so Women's team, and turned them into big time winners, probably to the consternation of many.   I was proud though.

Offline victorborga

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6771 on: May 10, 2018, 08:04:37 am »
Interesting to note, that Dan Engelstad, who was bypassed by at least two Cent schools, and likely 3 or 4, in the last 2 offseasons, was just hired at D1 Mount St Mary's.  Tell me politics aren't at play in most of these small school decisions and i'll tell you to guess again. 

Offline sunny

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Karma: +59/-8
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6772 on: May 10, 2018, 09:00:50 am »
Interesting to note, that Dan Engelstad, who was bypassed by at least two Cent schools, and likely 3 or 4, in the last 2 offseasons, was just hired at D1 Mount St Mary's.  Tell me politics aren't at play in most of these small school decisions and i'll tell you to guess again.

Or he just wasn't the right fit. Different strokes for different folks.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6773 on: May 10, 2018, 01:31:27 pm »
Yeah... maybe politics rear's it's end from time to time... but usually it comes down to the right fit. There are other factors like pay, too. I know a few jobs where you would think an upgrade is coming and it turns out pay is a problem.

IN this case with Englestad, also remember he is a former assistant coach at Mount St. Mary's and was very much liked and appreciated during his time there. Sometimes previous experiences and connections make a difference as well.

He wasn't the right fit at previous tries (including Centennial jobs), but no surprise he got the MSM job. I suspect he may have been at play for Gettysburg, but pulled himself out of the hunt when the Mount opened. (Didn't consider that, did you.)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline victorborga

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6774 on: May 11, 2018, 01:35:43 am »
2 things here, as I definitely respect your points.  First, you may have more inside info on this, but look at the timeline on the Gettysburg hire, Dunne named on April 10, Christian named at Siena on May 2.  I wouldn't doubt for a second that Engelstad would pull out of Gettysburg if he knew the Mount would open, but thats a pretty long gap of time as far as the coaching carousel goes.  He would've had to pull out of the Burg roughly April 6/7 ish, that's close to a month before the Mount was even open.  I'm not calling bs on your claim, just seems hard to fathom. 

Second, and this goes for either you or sunny..  In total seriousness, explain to me what you guys mean when you say he may not have been the right fit.  The Mount is geographically close to virtually the entire Cent, so that can't be it.  This isn't Billy Gillespie being tasked with facing the pressure of Big Blue Nation in Kentucky, or Eric Mangini unprepared to deal with the New York media as coach of the Jets.  We're hiring a D3 coach here, not the US men's national team successor to Coach K.   I was an assistant at this level, I respect what D3 coaches do, but let's not oversell what we/they do.  Are you saying he isn't the right hire for a high academic institution?  The 'right fit' just seems like a go-to comeback when somebody knows/thinks a mistake might have been made.  I don't know Engelstad personally, but i respect his resume and i know for a fact he interviews well.  MSM must agree, I know he was liked there, but they're not going to just give him the job straight from D3 unless he blows them away in an interview..

Ok, sorry for rambling, good debate is healthy  lol

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11442
  • Karma: +590/-338
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6775 on: May 11, 2018, 06:45:47 am »

Recruiting-wise, there's not a ton of difference between d3 and low d1 - the big question is how you handle the different atmosphere and expectations of student-athletes and the program, which you can definitely know from experience as an assistant - if it's the right experience.

For me, the big questions with Dan at the Cent schools was always the academics.  That changes recruiting far more than talent level and while he was at Holy Cross for a little while, I'm not sure that part of the equation made sense.  You've also got the question of a young, well-thought-of coach who might not be around for too long - my impression has been the Cent schools would rather hire somebody who can establish a long track record.

A lot of things go into these decisions beyond just what you can produce on the court.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6776 on: May 11, 2018, 02:11:33 pm »
2 things here, as I definitely respect your points.  First, you may have more inside info on this, but look at the timeline on the Gettysburg hire, Dunne named on April 10, Christian named at Siena on May 2.  I wouldn't doubt for a second that Engelstad would pull out of Gettysburg if he knew the Mount would open, but thats a pretty long gap of time as far as the coaching carousel goes.  He would've had to pull out of the Burg roughly April 6/7 ish, that's close to a month before the Mount was even open.  I'm not calling bs on your claim, just seems hard to fathom.

The timeline was pointed out to me by someone else... I can't keep track of the all the timelines to be sure and thought these crossed over. The Sienna job was a ton of "crazy" along with others at D1... and maybe it wasn't as obvious. That said, there is certainly a chance Englestad was reading the tea leaves. I can't get into some info I know off the record, but I feel I can say this safely: the report that Englestad was involved in the Gettysburg job as much as he was ... doesn't add up with the information I have. I don't know right now if he even applied nor do I know if they were interested. I just can say, he wasn't involved as much as previous reported.

Second, and this goes for either you or sunny..  In total seriousness, explain to me what you guys mean when you say he may not have been the right fit.  The Mount is geographically close to virtually the entire Cent, so that can't be it.  This isn't Billy Gillespie being tasked with facing the pressure of Big Blue Nation in Kentucky, or Eric Mangini unprepared to deal with the New York media as coach of the Jets.  We're hiring a D3 coach here, not the US men's national team successor to Coach K.   I was an assistant at this level, I respect what D3 coaches do, but let's not oversell what we/they do.  Are you saying he isn't the right hire for a high academic institution?  The 'right fit' just seems like a go-to comeback when somebody knows/thinks a mistake might have been made.  I don't know Engelstad personally, but i respect his resume and i know for a fact he interviews well.  MSM must agree, I know he was liked there, but they're not going to just give him the job straight from D3 unless he blows them away in an interview..

Ok, sorry for rambling, good debate is healthy  lol

There are a lot of factors that I know can play a role having seen it somewhat close up. First off, the institution may have it's own goals or aspirations (high or low). I know of a search going on right now where I've been told they are only looking for assistant coaches and have told head coaches they have no chance. There is always the possibility that even if a coach like Dan is in the finals list, he doesn't have a chance because something else is going on behind the scenes and that even the most qualified person isn't going to be the choice.

There is pay. I can't speak for sure what Dan was being paid, or nearly any coach (except those I can look up at public institutions). I also can't always say what a coach has for "other responsibilities." What I can speak to is that the list of coaches I know who have turned down jobs, unknown to the public, because it was either a paycut, added responsibilities, cost of living increase (not really covered by the pay), recruiting budget, assistants situation (paid/unpaid, fulltime/part-time) etc., etc., etc.

You also have other factors involved like the type of institution, academics, expectations, admissions, etc. Sometimes the right fit has to be for all parties... and sometimes there are ulterior motives going on behind the scenes (I can speak to experience on that last one for sure; not on the record).


Recruiting-wise, there's not a ton of difference between d3 and low d1 - the big question is how you handle the different atmosphere and expectations of student-athletes and the program, which you can definitely know from experience as an assistant - if it's the right experience.

For me, the big questions with Dan at the Cent schools was always the academics.  That changes recruiting far more than talent level and while he was at Holy Cross for a little while, I'm not sure that part of the equation made sense.  You've also got the question of a young, well-thought-of coach who might not be around for too long - my impression has been the Cent schools would rather hire somebody who can establish a long track record.

I think the question about Dan and recruiting has always been overblown and misunderstood. I also think the idea that Dan may not be around long is a misnomer and a large assumption. One doesn't know where a coach could head. To be blunt, are we sure that Hopkins at Muhlenberg or Loeffler at Hopkins are going to be around for a long time? I think the Centennial schools are in a very different place now. They can't assume they are hiring someone who will retire at their school anymore. Those days are gone and the current turnover is going to prove that. I don't think Dunne stays at Gettysburg nor Kosmalski at Swarthmore or Goodman at Washington, either. Seretti will probably leave Dickinson in the near future as well.

If Dan was not getting gigs at Centennial schools because they were worried about him leaving in four years ... then they are going to make poor hiring choices overall. Those who end up staying in jobs for the "long-term" end up staying by chance more than design. Hiring by design, will never work.

A lot of things go into these decisions beyond just what you can produce on the court.

Very true.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline victorborga

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6777 on: May 12, 2018, 11:57:13 am »
Awesome feedback, thanks.  I just like to get the perspective of others on things like this.  I agree with almost all of what you two said,  though I agree with Dave that the recent hires at Muhlenberg, Hopkins, and probably even Haverford are not likely 'long haul' guys if they have their choice in the matter.  2 of them come from D1 schools, and the third from one of the few D3 conferences/leagues that we would consider better than the Cent, and I think all of them will be looking to trade up in a handful of years if they succeed and can find a good opportunity somewhere.. Kosmalski obviously fits in this category as well, he's just not a recent hire.   

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6778 on: May 14, 2018, 02:50:23 pm »
Awesome feedback, thanks.  I just like to get the perspective of others on things like this.  I agree with almost all of what you two said,  though I agree with Dave that the recent hires at Muhlenberg, Hopkins, and probably even Haverford are not likely 'long haul' guys if they have their choice in the matter.  2 of them come from D1 schools, and the third from one of the few D3 conferences/leagues that we would consider better than the Cent, and I think all of them will be looking to trade up in a handful of years if they succeed and can find a good opportunity somewhere.. Kosmalski obviously fits in this category as well, he's just not a recent hire.

I consider recent as anything in the last few years ... I also know Kosmalski has been looking elsewhere nearly every off season. Sometimes that searching is a matter of practice and keeping a name fresh... sometimes it indicates something else (or a combination of the two).
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Gabriel

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 497
  • Karma: +30/-26
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Centennial Conference
« Reply #6779 on: May 17, 2018, 12:01:21 pm »
Interesting conversation regarding coaches aspirations.  Some coaches just prefer D-III and are happy coaching where they are.  Obvious examples are the current longest tenured coaches in the CC in Glenn Robinson and Kevin Small---and until recently George Petrie.  Probably, all three have had opportunities to move on and have chosen not to---many times for family reasons but also because they are happy where they are.  I doubt that any of them have applied for other positions in recent years if ever.
Perhaps some of the recent hires feel the same way----and again, maybe not.  Guess we will just have to wait and see.