FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

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Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: smedindy on March 10, 2013, 07:39:17 PM
Sigma,

Athletics may bring in some males that normally wouldn't go to Oberlin. Not a huge amount, but some, and that's probably why they have kept football alive and at least breathing on its own. But they are probably the most competitive school in the NCAC (maybe Kenyon's just as tough to get in to) so it may not help that much.

However, as the NESCAC has shown (even if they don't play in the playoffs), you can have a very competitive school (admit %) and on the athletics field.

Yeah, at the d1 level, Stanford doesn't do too badly! ;D

And Michigan is probably only marginally easier to get into than Oberlin.

sigma one

Yep, Agree, Smed.  And NESCAC is a prime example.  Do they still give teams "slots"?  That's one way to promote a strong athletics program at quality, liberal, liberal arts schools.  I once heard the Admissions Director (Dean?) at Middlebury say something like--if we did not have the the first-year class that's coming this year, we would have another group behind them that looks the same.  And if we didin't have the second group, there is another group just like them waiting in the wings.
   Oberlin and Kenyon do fine is some other sports, and in the case of Kenyon, well, there's swimming.  But football needs numbers, and I've seen no evidence that either school is interested in allowing (that's the best word I can come up with) those numbers.  It's OK if a school doesn't want its intellectual image spoiled by football--or to believe that it will be.  Seems like classic snobby faculty and administrative intellectualism to me, and a dis-service to the fine Student- athletes who play the sport.  The era of rockheaded football players is long past, but a few places and people still keep the stereotype. 
     By the way, student-athletes who go to Oberlin, in the case of football, know the recent history of the institution--and go there, I'm guessing, thinking that they can change the status quo.  They go in knowing that they will get a superior education and play their sport.  But I can still appreciate Obieqb7's frustration about institutional support. 
     There's always the thinking that we can change things--good for them.   Watching Oberlin and Kenyon for a long time, I see them enter every game with desire and play hard all the way though frequently outmanned.  If I want to place the best light on it, there's a lesson in that, but then I'm not on the field on most Saturdays for four years feeling the heartbreak.  And when the stars align, they put together the talent and desire to rise up, e.g. 2012.

Obieqb7

Hey everyone,

Sorry, my computer has been all messed up over the past week or so =/ I have been meaning to get back on here to talk with you all more.

I am glad everyone understands where I was coming from with the issue of support for the football team, and athletics department in general, at Oberlin. When I mentioned that the administration is more interested in the liberal aspect of the education and school community, I think it came off the wrong way. I meant that the interests of many of the students lack athletics, especially football, because of their perception of us. Many of them view football players as the stereotypical "jock", somewhat similar to Boobie Miles from Friday Night Lights - and I am not kidding you. Many students actually believe that we are 'on scholarship' and can't read. Even though that sounds ridiculous, its somewhat saddening because its obvious that we earned admission to Oberlin, and that we have a lacking relationship between the athletics department and general student body. Coach Ramsey attended and played football at UC-Davis during the 1970s (oh what a hippie he still is!), and he offers insight on how to win the support of the student body, by offering support to them. I am hopeful that support from both ends start and that the student body and athletics department aren't so divided in the upcoming years. Oberlin is becoming less and less "hippie" every coming year. My freshman year, the school was pretty out there when it came to extreme liberals (I am talking 'fregans', acts of artistic expression through drawing on a canvas using dyed vomit, etc.). By the time my 5th year came around, the extremity of such acts kind of lessened and the perspective, whether its social or political, has become more moderate and level.

The administration attempts to show support at times, but they do nothing to support us in comparison with schools like Wabash, Witt, and even Wooster and Kenyon. Look at Kenyon's athletic facility - its insane compared to Oberlin's. We still play in the same stadium with the same stands that the players from the 1800s played in. At least it feels that way. Our locker room smells like urine and body odor. It's just so run down, and kind of embarrassing after traveling to other schools and staying in their facilities and locker rooms. The athletics department at Oberlin definitely takes a backseat to everything else. I wish the school would realize that if some assistance was given to the football team, and success was seen on the field, so many positives would come from it. Coaches from Oberlin wouldn't call a player from Amherst (a school ten minutes down the road) and explain to him that there is a good football team and institution ten minutes from him that is highly interested in him to attend there. Oberlin is only known for its education and conservatory, which is perfectly fine. But, the school has 750 million dollars in endowment funds, throw a little something to athletic programs so that athletics aren't a joke anymore. I think that with a little financial support from the school, the football team would be able to recruit more and attract more and better high school players to go there. As of now, our recruiting is a joke compared to other schools, and its not because of the lack of work of the coaches, its because they don't have the personal funds to drive and fly around the country to recruit. I will never forget walking into the gym at like 945PM and seeing Coach Estep making himself dinner and coffee. I asked what he was up to and he said he's going to start making calls to CA recruits and is then going to send out emails. He would constantly sleep in the office overnight from his dedication to recruiting. He, along with Ramsey, would recruit as hard as possible, and still only bring in 7 freshman (2010). It's not the coaches, I can tell you that much.

I feel like I am bitching - sorry haha this is five years of frustration coming out right now.

As for Sigma's question about the "slots" - yes the NESCAC still offers these slots. My little brother was offered a "slot" to Bowdoin and basically committed through that process.

And to touch on student-athletes filling a large portion of the incoming class, such as Wabash, it wouldn't matter if the school had football or not. I honestly don't understand how football hasn't been ceased at Oberlin. No administrative support, no student body support, no financial support from the administration or alumni (anecdotal evidence, of course), so there isn't any reason the keep the football team, other the it offers more diversity to such an already diverse campus.

Again, thank you to everyone who has congratulated on our win this past Fall against Wabash. It really does suck that Witt beat the hell out of us the next week haha

Dr. Acula

I'm an OAC guy, but this is fantastic stuff Obieqb7.  Welcome aboard and thanks for sharing.  You're unique perspective is very much appreciated.  +k

It's odd that you mention the endowment versus the state of the facilities.  Kenyon and Denison both have invested in their facilities.  Wooster just opened a new rec center as well I believe.  Although not NCAC, Case is in the same boat and they too have invested in their facilities.  Heck, even Hiram has upgraded.  It's starting to seem like Oberlin is the last one to get on that train.   


sigma one

We all feel your pain, Obieqb7, or at least can understand why the pain is there.  Thanks for sharing with us.

formerd3db

Obieqb7:
Yes, as Dr. A and sigma one mention, "that is great stuff" and thanks for sharing more insight to the program.  As far as your facilities, I am one who is all for tradition (as I mentioned in my first reply post to yours) in that because of my interest in the history of college football, I think it is great that your school is still playing on the historic same field as Oberlin's earliest teams.  However, there indeed comes a time, as you pointed out, when the college has to step up to make modern renovations.  That has been obviously seen over the last decade by many, many of the DIII schools, even the smallest like Eureka.  Even my Olivet and Kazoo and Adrian in our league did that with new stadiums and the new synthetic turf-especially Olivet, which like Oberlin, is still playing the same field as in the 1880's-1890's.  My own Hope did so to the stadium that, while only built in 1979, still needed to be upgraded to keep up with our fellow MIAA schools, putting in the new synthetic turf for this past season and some major renovations to the stadium (with more to come in future years like a football building with lockerrooms right at the stadium).

Anyway, hopefully, as Oberlin and Coach Ramsay continue to further stablize and improve the program, that perhaps some alumni will be able to raise some $ to make the improvements to the stadium and field (Dill) that you point out need to be made.  Kenyon had to do it (as did Denison in renovating theirs a while back).  Again, thanks for sharing with us.  We'll look forward to your future posts here.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

smedindy

Facilities is a huge key. It benefits the entire campus (wellness initiatives) and can really boost recruiting. I don't think Oberlin will ever go totally away from being a granola school - and not that it should. But it could do better for wellness on campus.

I looked (because I do) and Oberlin was 133rd in attendance in football last year in D3 in terms of average attendance per game (1,621).

Some schools they beat in average attendance were:

Wesley
Salisbury
Rose-Hulman
Mt. St. Joseph
Illinois College
St. Norbert
Capital
Augustana
Millsaps
Centre
DPU
Concordia - Chicago (!)
Earlham
Johns Hopkins
MIT
Williams (surprising, but THE game was at Amherst)
Kenyon
Hiram

Hiram was 229th out of 235.

wally_wabash

I love that Coach Ramsey sports a tie on the sideline on gameday.  Could you guys imagine ER in a tie on Saturdays?  Me either.  That's definitely one of those things that probably works better for some than for others. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

1837Tigers

Quote from: smedindy on March 11, 2013, 11:28:43 PM
Facilities is a huge key. It benefits the entire campus (wellness initiatives) and can really boost recruiting. I don't think Oberlin will ever go totally away from being a granola school - and not that it should. But it could do better for wellness on campus.

I looked (because I do) and Oberlin was 133rd in attendance in football last year in D3 in terms of average attendance per game (1,621).

Some schools they beat in average attendance were:

Wesley
Salisbury
Rose-Hulman
Mt. St. Joseph
Illinois College
St. Norbert
Capital
Augustana
Millsaps
Centre
DPU
Concordia - Chicago (!)
Earlham
Johns Hopkins
MIT
Williams (surprising, but THE game was at Amherst)
Kenyon
Hiram

Hiram was 229th out of 235.

Important to underscore that is average reported attendance.  There are some SIDs who see crowds like Mr. Magoo views the roadway.

smedindy

Quote from: 1837Tigers on March 12, 2013, 08:36:56 PM
Quote from: smedindy on March 11, 2013, 11:28:43 PM
Facilities is a huge key. It benefits the entire campus (wellness initiatives) and can really boost recruiting. I don't think Oberlin will ever go totally away from being a granola school - and not that it should. But it could do better for wellness on campus.

I looked (because I do) and Oberlin was 133rd in attendance in football last year in D3 in terms of average attendance per game (1,621).

Some schools they beat in average attendance were:

Wesley
Salisbury
Rose-Hulman
Mt. St. Joseph
Illinois College
St. Norbert
Capital
Augustana
Millsaps
Centre
DPU
Concordia - Chicago (!)
Earlham
Johns Hopkins
MIT
Williams (surprising, but THE game was at Amherst)
Kenyon
Hiram

Hiram was 229th out of 235.

Important to underscore that is average reported attendance.  There are some SIDs who see crowds like Mr. Magoo views the roadway.

Well, yeah. Lord knows how many butts are in the seats in some of the stadiums.

Of course, attendance 'reporting' at all levels is a bit funky. In the pros, though, they have to go by ticket sales, so that makes it easier.

Obieqb7

Wally, coach Ramsey stopped wearing the tie on the sidelines after my freshman year. Idk why he changed it up. I liked the look.

As to the attendance, there is absolutely no way we get over 500 at our games. If I remember correctly, against Case, we only had like 100 in the stands. Sort of depressing.

I agree with formerd3db about the passion for tradition. I love the history Oberlin has in regards to its football program. To talk about any kind of success, you have to go back 50 years or so haha but I love the story of us being the last team in Ohio to beat Ohio state. They're lucky we felt bad for beating them all the time and stopped scheduling them :) lol

In all seriousness though, I do wish something was renovated - whether it's the mediocre weight room that the college students use (we have to use it to and wait for them to finish lifts so we can lift), the stadium seating, the press box, the grass field to synthetic turf, the entire athletic facility..... Something. As time passes, and all of our rival schools are advancing their facilities, it's time to compete with them and upgrade as well. In addition to competing, it helps recruiting and boosts morale of the entire department if the athletic facilities were upgraded a little bit.

smedindy

Well, your SID reported 1,038 there against Case. Whether he counted each arm and leg separately, I dunno!  ;)

Obieqb7

Haha I might be mistaken. Although, I don't think we had 1,000 fans at any of our games, except homecoming of course. And even then, 1,000 is a only a maybe.

JA8486

Obieqb7; After watching you play for the last few years, it is interesting to read your insights on Oberlin football. I have told people that I don't see the dedication and effort and love of the game anyplace else like I see at Oberlin. I have no conection to the college, but I enjoy getting to several games every year. I also enjoy that effort and dedication at games I go to at Heidelberg, and OWU. It must just be that D3 spirit. I would agree that there needs to be some upgrades with the football facilities, but I always thought the natural turf at the stadium was in great shape. Good luck to you in the future, and keep us posted on the Yeoman

formerd3db

smeds, obqb7 and JA:

Thanks for posting some of the attendance figures smeds.  Like you, I follow those yearly, although I will admit that I did not check out the entire list this year as yet.  Some of us on our MIAA board have had this discussion regarding attendance at the games in the past. As you all point out, there are several factors that "determine" that at any given campus.  I agree with you that, at least from some of the inside sources I know, that the attendance for a great majority of the D3 schools is "reported" as you relate.  However, I can attest to the fact that at our Hope, the figures are exact attendance counted, not reported.  The only time I disagreed with that was one game last year, in which I know there was more than the reported attendance because I painstakingly counted the crowd myself!  Other factors that play into the figures are weather conditions for game day, relationship of the college to the community, who the visiting opponent is and, of course, how the team is doing in any one year.  As far as these factors:

Hope has always had a huge well respected relationship to the City of Holland and its surrounding area and, as such, that is why they have usually outdrawn most of the MIAA schools in attendance to football games (basketball is another "animal" which I will briefly mention below).  The city residents routinely come to the games, similar to what JA8486 has shared with us.  Also the annual first home game for Hope called "Community Day" routinely also draws the highest attendance with the acception of homecoming, except for this past fall.  The attendance for Community day this past season was 4250.

Albion and Trine are the other schools I would place in this category i.e. community relationships and Olivet also, although the latter in a much smaller capacity, probably similar to like Oberlin's attendance in their better seasons (Adrian has been improving in attendance, however, even in their top seasons, they sometimes struggle to get big crowds).  Trine, of course, in their championship runs of recent, had the highest attendance in our league in the high 4,000s and over 5,000 several times, but again, that was, in part, because they were having tremendous seasons also.

Last year, Hope averaged about 3,300 per game (this was reported as just under 3,000, however, I'm including the game in which I know there was more than the "reported" attendance.  Homecoming, we usually routinely have well-over 4,000, although this year, the opponent was a not-so-good Alma team and the day had horrible weather with heavy rains, the latter of which cut down on the attendance despite large numbers of alumni on campus for the weekend.  In Hope's great years (of course, some in which I played "many moons ago" :o ::) ;D ;) :D), we would have attendance over 4,000 for homegames and even 5,000 for some of the huge games for the title, etc. Hope earlier in this decade in one of the more recent championship years, the >4,000 was easily attained.  The MIAA record for championship game attendance was almost 9,000 and that was Alma/Albion back in the mid-1990's, although I personally believe it was closer to 10,000.

This year, Hope averaged 2,314 which isn't bad, yet still disappointing for some of those lower attendance games.  Anyway, it was interesting to see the attendance figures you posted and certainly Oberlin did respectfully well in that.

Some last comments:  Hope has led DIII in annual basketball attendance the past 5-6 years with under 4,000 per game (due to the DeVos Fieldhouse, which is like a mini-NBA arena with permanent seating, hanging scoreboard, etc. and seats about 3,800 - there have been some >4,000 attendance games (Hope/Calvin rivalry) and Hope many times outdraws some of the DI basketball schools in attendance (heck we did that in football too on some occasions, outdrawing Western Michigan and Eastern Michigan ;D).  Also, Hope and Calvin hold the all-time DIII single game attendance record of 12,000 at VanAndle Arena back in 2000 (I believe that was the year). 

Anyway, sorry if this is boring, but just thought I would share some of this since the discussion has been on attendance and, of course, how facilities help that (I'm sure the Community Day was helped this year by it being the "unveiling" of the new renovated stadium and new synthetic turf installed! ;)) and...besides, it is the "off-season" and we always generate some of this type of discussion! :)  Thanks for all of your guys comments as well.  As mentioned, hopefully Oberlin will do some of the needed and desired renovations to their historic field and current stadium.   
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice