Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019

Started by AO, April 18, 2017, 01:18:52 PM

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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: AO on May 04, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.

I promise you... you would be very surprised at that answer. I know athletes on teams who can't compete who know that answer.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PMAnd per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."

I have to disagree with you here, D-Mac. Kids will be thrilled to win wherever it is hosted, because that's what they play for. They play for the Walnut & Bronze, not for the experience in Salem. That's what this sport is about and always has been about: Winning the national championship. Even though all of the players in D3 know where the Final Four is held, for the vast majority of them the experience in Salem (the amenities, the programs, the social events, the location itself) is an unknown, anyway, because most players never get there a second time. Don't confuse the destination for the actual basketball games that are played there. When players talk about the fact that they "got to Salem", it's because "Salem" is their shorthand for "Final Four" (and now for the All-Star game as well). In other words, the name of the city has become a metonym for the D3 men's basketball Final Four, due to the length of time that it has been held there, just as "Omaha" is the metonym for the D1 College World Series and "Pasadena" is the metonym for the Rose Bowl ("Salem" has also become a metonym for the Stagg Bowl in D3 football.) It doesn't bestow any magic, or any compliments, upon the city itself in the minds of the players. Even if Salem had been a crappy host for the past 22 years, it would still be everybody's metonym for the Final Four.

I'm not particularly thrilled that the Final Four is moving out of Salem. Yes, the city's out of the way for the vast majority of D3 schools and fans, but travel is always going to be problematic for a lot of teams and fans even if the event is held in that geographical sweet spot in eastern Ohio and western Pennsylvania. Salem has proved its ability to not only host the event well, but, as you said, to also raise the standards by which the NCAA now expects its small-college championship hosts to conform. My fears are that: 1) once cities figure out that expectations are high, economic returns are low, and that hosting a small-college championship isn't necessarily a stepping stone to the grand prize of hosting a D1 March Madness weekend, bids will dry up; 2) two- or four-year hosting windows aren't long enough for the hosts to work out all of the kinks and get everything down to a smoothly humming annual routine, or to draw consistent sponsorship and media attention; 3) the All-Star game might end up being a casualty of the lack of on-site expertise necessary to run it; and 4) the NCAA might've killed the goose that laid the golden egg by rendering Salem unwilling or incapable of hosting the event up to its current sterling standards should D3 decide to return the Final Four there once the Fort Wayne contract is up.

I would've been mollified about the move if the Fort Wayne contract was longer; say, six to eight years.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

The NCAA has to change it's way of doing business to have it be a six or eight year contract... and that would also fly in the face of those who pushed to get out of Salem with their excuse that the championships shouldn't have a semi-permanent home.

I am working on this a bit, but from what I have been gathering, some voices at the NCAA put together BS reasons that are really hypocritical in the long run just to say they moved the championships out of Salem. Every excuse or reason I have been told so far doesn't hold any water.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

And I disagree with the Salem thing. I know a lot of athletes who talk about Salem having never been there and being in the middle of the season. I get your reference that "Salem" is just another term for the Final Four... but I would contend that in women's basketball they never talk about the host city in the same terms. We use the term "Road to Grand Rapids" and whatnot to keep the theme of Salem the same (and because we can't use Final Four), but overall we talk about going to Salem in men and going to the final four in women. Same with the teams, coaches, and students best I have been able to determine over the years.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PM
And I disagree with the Salem thing. I know a lot of athletes who talk about Salem having never been there and being in the middle of the season. I get your reference that "Salem" is just another term for the Final Four... but I would contend that in women's basketball they never talk about the host city in the same terms.

Well, of course they don't. The women's Final Four is so peripatetic that it has no ongoing identification with any one locale. Language is all about ease of communication, which means that the speaker and the listener have to have the same understanding of the meaning of a term. The whole reason why a metonym works is because one noun becomes associated with another over a long period of time in everybody's minds. That bestows the ability to refer to one by naming the other and having the listener or reader readily make the unspoken connection. When I use "the White House" as a metonym for the current presidential administration, I don't have to then explain to you that I'm substituting one noun to mean a different noun. The White House has been the home of American presidents and the seat of the executive branch of the U.S. government for over 200 years now, so everybody automatically understands the metonym. But if you had attempted to use "Grand Rapids" as a metonym for the women's Final Four this past season you would've been met with blank stares from most women's players and coaches, because there is no historical tie between that locale and the women's Final Four. Indeed, you can't effectively use a locational metonym for the D3 women's Final Four, because the women's Final Four has been nomadic from its outset in 1982; only once has it stayed in one place for more than a couple of years, and that was a mere three-year stint in Danbury, CT from '99 thru '01.

I never said that men's basketball players don't use the term "Salem". In fact, I told you why they use it. Metonymy is such a common function in the English language that we typically never give it a second thought.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PMWe use the term "Road to Grand Rapids" and whatnot to keep the theme of Salem the same (and because we can't use Final Four), but overall we talk about going to Salem in men and going to the final four in women. Same with the teams, coaches, and students best I have been able to determine over the years.

Again, you're simply reinforcing my point. You have to resort to using the metonym because your use of the actual noun itself is outlawed for copyright reasons.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Well we also want to be fair... we can use Final Four as final four and we could say on the road to the championship... but to be fair because there is "On the Road to Salem" being used... it is only fair to place it for women as well. I probably say the women's town only 25% of the time in the course of the last 20 years.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

It's probably hard for you every year on Hoopsville to even remember off of the top of your head where it's located that particular season. The D3 women's basketball Final Four is the college-sports equivalent of Whack-a-Mole. ;)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2017, 03:49:16 PM
It's probably hard for you every year on Hoopsville to even remember off of the top of your head where it's located that particular season. The D3 women's basketball Final Four is the college-sports equivalent of Whack-a-Mole. ;)

Trust me... if you listen or watch carefully enough... there are times you may see me hesitate as I try and remember which city we are headed to this year or which city we were at least year. I usually just dump to "championships" if I can get away with it. LOL
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Smitty Oom

#38
Sorry Dave, but as a very recent graduate from a D3 school and playing on the team, I know for a fact that nobody besides me 1) cared about other leagues or D3 standings (unless we were in the ORV category for the week, which was only once or twice) 2) knew how the Pool C bids worked or 3) knew were the final four was held. All of my teammates were really into our own conference (MIAC) and enjoyed watching their games due to the familiarity of the schools and players since we have played against some of them since High School. With that said, even when you start talking about close conferences (WIAC/UMAC) my teammates knew Northwestern and Stevens Point were probably going to be atop of the conference because that's where they have finished as of recent years, but they didn't follow the other conferences during the year. What I am trying to say is that due to the lack of recognizable schools/teams/conferences to the normal high school basketball player, D3 hoops for most players is limited in their minds to the immediate conference they play in. There will be outliers, for example all of the die hards we have on this board. Also teams that make the tournament regularly (St. Thomas/Wooster/Hope/Amherst/Augustana/etc.) might be more exposed to other conferences, teams and the workings of the NCAA tourney, but to say most of the players are on the team are that into the logistics of it all is probably far fetched. I agree with Greg that when they say "Salem" they are using it as metonym for the Final Four, due to their long standing connection. If the Final Four was held in Billings, Montana people would be ecstatic to get there and play for the championship. The players just want to win, wherever that may happen.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: AO on May 04, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.

I think this is probably true.  Players on teams with annual expectations of the final four as a possibility, the big schools from big conferences, they know where the title game is played, but I'd say most teams have no clue - the ones who know they won't have a .500 record or would be happy just to lose in the first round.  Those teams generally aren't thinking about the final four - and they make up the majority of d3 schools.  Sometimes, in covering d3, it's easy for us to lose perspective, since we mostly deal with those top teams.

I'd also imagine it depends on the coaches - those coaches who are really involved with the NABC or make trips to the final four anyway - they might use it as some kind of motivating factor - but I'm guessing it's not really a big thing most places.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

iwumichigander

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 05, 2017, 08:03:47 AM
Quote from: AO on May 04, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.

I think this is probably true.  Players on teams with annual expectations of the final four as a possibility, the big schools from big conferences, they know where the title game is played, but I'd say most teams have no clue - the ones who know they won't have a .500 record or would be happy just to lose in the first round.  Those teams generally aren't thinking about the final four - and they make up the majority of d3 schools.  Sometimes, in covering d3, it's easy for us to lose perspective, since we mostly deal with those top teams.

I'd also imagine it depends on the coaches - those coaches who are really involved with the NABC or make trips to the final four anyway - they might use it as some kind of motivating factor - but I'm guessing it's not really a big thing most places.
I think Ryan closer to the truth of the matter.  Most schools set goals to win a certain number of games or win the conference; and, maybe get NCAA bid. I think there is a small number or percentage (hypothetically less the 10%) of the D3 population that sets annual higher goals beyond an NCAA bid. 
Certainly in that small subset are "power conference schools" and perrinial Top 25 schools - this sunset knows what Salem means.

Mr. Ypsi

Minor quibble: ("hypothetically less than 10%") having goals that make them recognize "Salem".  That would be roughly 40 schools.    I dare say that basically ALL the players at ALL the schools in the 'power conferences' (whether or not they have realistic expectations of going themselves, the 'culture' of the conference would make them aware), PLUS the players at perennial top 25 schools or perennial Pool As - surely by now we are talking around 25%, not 'less than 10%'.

But, yeah, players at schools like Blackburn or Finlandia may not have the instant recognition of "Salem" that we fanatics do!

joehakes

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2017, 03:17:21 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PM
And I disagree with the Salem thing. I know a lot of athletes who talk about Salem having never been there and being in the middle of the season. I get your reference that "Salem" is just another term for the Final Four... but I would contend that in women's basketball they never talk about the host city in the same terms.

Well, of course they don't. The women's Final Four is so peripatetic that it has no ongoing identification with any one locale. Language is all about ease of communication, which means that the speaker and the listener have to have the same understanding of the meaning of a term. The whole reason why a metonym works is because one noun becomes associated with another over a long period of time in everybody's minds. That bestows the ability to refer to one by naming the other and having the listener or reader readily make the unspoken connection. When I use "the White House" as a metonym for the current presidential administration, I don't have to then explain to you that I'm substituting one noun to mean a different noun. The White House has been the home of American presidents and the seat of the executive branch of the U.S. government for over 200 years now, so everybody automatically understands the metonym. But if you had attempted to use "Grand Rapids" as a metonym for the women's Final Four this past season you would've been met with blank stares from most women's players and coaches, because there is no historical tie between that locale and the women's Final Four. Indeed, you can't effectively use a locational metonym for the D3 women's Final Four, because the women's Final Four has been nomadic from its outset in 1982; only once has it stayed in one place for more than a couple of years, and that was a mere three-year stint in Danbury, CT from '99 thru '01.

I never said that men's basketball players don't use the term "Salem". In fact, I told you why they use it. Metonymy is such a common function in the English language that we typically never give it a second thought.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PMWe use the term "Road to Grand Rapids" and whatnot to keep the theme of Salem the same (and because we can't use Final Four), but overall we talk about going to Salem in men and going to the final four in women. Same with the teams, coaches, and students best I have been able to determine over the years.

Again, you're simply reinforcing my point. You have to resort to using the metonym because your use of the actual noun itself is outlawed for copyright reasons.

Does anyone else catch the irony of this post?  No one can use more words to express the idea of language brevity than Greg Sager.  Period. Full stop.

Gregory Sager

"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

WUPHF

To the point about the number of teams that understand the notion of the road to Salem, I would say that if we wanted to, we could probably predict the likelihood that they would know base on the following five questions:

How many times the coach been to Salem as a coach and how many times he has been as a fan?  How recently has he been and how many times has he been over the last 5 years?  How often does he talk to Dave McHugh?  How frequently does he watch Hoopsville?