D3 vs. NAIA

Started by Ralph Turner, August 28, 2005, 10:32:37 PM

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FPM

So what is the final tally

footballfever

Add:
Waldorf 48  Simpson  13  Loss
SW Assemblies  47  Crown 14  Loss
Olivet Nazerene  29  Northwestern College  13   Loss

Should be 19-15 NAIA


The tally is deceiving in that D3 normally plays the weakest NAIA teams or teams that don't offer much in scholarships.  The well funded NAIA teams are much better than D3 as they should be.  NAIA can offer 24 scholarships (Plus as many as they want for non varsity players or redshirts.  Plus lower academic standards for athletes in NAIA allows helps NAIA get more D1 ability players.

Comparing D2 and NAIA would be a better comparison as head to head it is close each year between them.  NAIA has a lot less teams than other divisions now and it makes it harder to compare.  The upper half of NAIA is playing at a average D2 level of play or higher even though NAIA is not what it was in the past. 

Scholarships limits
D1A  85
D1AA  56
D2   36
NAIA 24 (Plus)
D3  0

wildcat11

Quote from: footballfever on December 14, 2005, 03:22:08 PM
The tally is deceiving in that D3 normally plays the weakest NAIA teams or teams that don't offer much in scholarships.  The well funded NAIA teams are much better than D3 as they should be.  NAIA can offer 24 scholarships (Plus as many as they want for non varsity players or redshirts.  Plus lower academic standards for athletes in NAIA allows helps NAIA get more D1 ability players.

Comparing D2 and NAIA would be a better comparison as head to head it is close each year between them.  NAIA has a lot less teams than other divisions now and it makes it harder to compare.  The upper half of NAIA is playing at a average D2 level of play or higher even though NAIA is not what it was in the past. 

Scholarships limits
D1A  85
D1AA  56
D2   36
NAIA 24 (Plus)
D3  0

Fever,

I don't know if you're a NAIA honk but this is the typical crap that NAIA fans try to sell. If you spent any time to take a look at the current health of the NAIA then I have a hard time knowing that someone could type this with a stright face.

Yes, One thing that the NAIA has in common with D2 is the ability to hand out money.  That's about it. 

That's great that NAIA schools "can" hand out 24 scholarships but please list how many programs not named Carroll College do on a year in and year out basis?  There's a big difference between "can" and "do".

Also, please list to us what the upper half of the NAIA schools that play middle of the road DII quality of football? Geneva? Walsh? MidAmerica? Valley City State?   

You are right that the NAIA had it's hey day back in the 70's, 80's and early 90's but that's over now.  You have a few excellent teams (Carroll, St. Francis) but once you get past these teams the bottom falls out pretty fast.

The NAIA is no better in terms of quality of teams that DIII produces.  I can say that because I played in a program that transitioned from the NAIA to DIII and I didn't notice one damn bit of difference.

You put the NAIA top 10 and DIII top 10 into a bracket and some years DIII would get the better of it and other the NAIA would.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: footballfever on December 14, 2005, 03:22:08 PM
The tally is deceiving in that D3 normally plays the weakest NAIA teams or teams that don't offer much in scholarships. 

Much like those stellar programs in D-III you just noted, Crown and Northwestern. If Massey ranked those provisional D-III members in with the rest of D-III, Crown would be #210 and Northwestern #128 out of the 228 schools it measures. (Some listed as D-III are not.)
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Pat Coleman

Lumping all of NAIA into one little box is almost as bad as NAIA pundits saying the NCAA is all about money and not about "character." Those of us at D-III see all of the character and none of the money.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

footballfever

Thats typical D3 talk to say scholarships don't matter? Bull!  Thats how you get talented players in most cases and there is far more individual talent in NAIA than D3 and better overall teams.. By the way I am not a NAIA honk.

I would say just check the at least the top 40-45 teams in NAIA they all offer at least 15 or more scholarships and probably more than half of those the very close to or the full 24 scholarships (some I know offer much more than 24 with the redshirts rule).  A handful of NAIA conferences offer more scholarships than  4-5 / D2 conferences.  Plus I also know more than half of D2 teams offer less than 15 scholarships. Get the picture that NAIA is comparable to average D2 football.  NAIA attracts a lot of D1 talent mostly because of academic standards being lower for athletics. NAIA wins about half there games against D2 competition (check youself) and most games are on the road for NAIA.

NAIA has half as many teams (94) as D3 so I would hope D3 has a few good teams in it.  Overall quality? NAIA is better and the best teams are better in NAIA. 

I would expect a D3 BACKER to try to say D3 is as good and that scholarships don't matter. You know it makes a difference if you know anything about football. Which I think you do. Plus it is true if you look at the teams D3 beat from NAIA most are bottom feeders in there NAIA league and played better than average D3 teams.

D3 is in a class all its own. Nothing wrong with that and how D3 operates is good. Student comes first.

Heck even the American football Coaches Association Division 2 All America team includes NAIA players.

D3 is not on equal terms with NAIA.  NAIA isn't what it was but it sure still is a higher level of football than D3. Only thing D3 has is the NCAA label (which really means nothing).


footballfever

By the way the Massey rankings are a joke! They don't know anything about most teams they are ranking. Its a good as having a blind man rank the teams. 

*Also the best teams in NAIA beat the best D3 that is for sure.
Only example is I know of lately is Azusa Pacific (NAIA )#10 last year against # 9/ D3 Trinity(who had a 30 game home win streak at the time) Azusa Beat Trinity 35-7 or 35-14 on there Home field. This game was played Middle to end of season.

NAIA #1 beat D2 #1 on there Home field a couple years ago as well by two TD's.  That D2 team that lost to the NAIA team two years in a row went on to beat a playoff D1AA team.

I can go on but I think you know NAIA is still playing some good football.




footballfever

By the way the Massey rankings are a joke! They don't know anything about most teams they are ranking. Its a good as having a blind man rank the teams.  

*Also the best teams in NAIA beat the best D3 that is for sure.
Only example is I know of lately is Azusa Pacific (NAIA )#10 last year against # 9/ D3 Trinity(who had a 30 game home win streak at the time) Azusa Beat Trinity 35-7 or 35-14 on there Home field. This game was played Middle to end of season. By they way Azusa Pacific lost in the first round of the NAIA playoffs to a DAC team (U of Mary) 21-0.

NAIA #1 beat D2 #1 on there Home field a couple years ago as well by two TD's.  That D2 team that lost to the NAIA team two years in a row went on to beat a playoff D1AA team.

I can go on but I think you know NAIA is still playing some good football.




smedindy

The Massey ratings are a good attempt to evaluate teams without any bias. Now some rankings may seem a bit off, and a 10-game football season some irregularities may surface, but overall the Massey ratings seem fairly solid to me.

I do my own D-3 power rating compendium using three indicies and Massey is the closest fit to my rankings, when all is said and done. (Not that I'm the ranking expert).

I would have to say the NAIA is quite regional, moreso than D-3. In Indiana, there's one good NAIA team and I bet Wabash could be quite competitive to them. I'd say that team for team, conferences like the OAC, MIAC, WIAC, and the CCIW could definitely best the NAIA in a 'challenge'.

Anyway, many of the NAIA schools have different missons than D-3 schools. The schools are in D-3 because of their missions, not their football programs.

Mr. Ypsi

fbfever,

If you can arrange the game, I'll take (d2) Grand Valley State over the NAIA ALL-STAR team, and spot you two TDs.

AND I'll take MUC, UWW, and Linfield (you pick the order) against the NAIA top 3.

I know none of this will ever happen, so we're both just blowin' smoke.  But I'm a d3 fan - why are YOU here? ;)

footballfever

You are really blowin smoke with that!!!  If you think Linfield or any D3 team can beat Carrol or USF- St Francis Ind. and some others you are smokin something. Grand Valley and Carrol or USF would be a good game.  I am hear to speak the truth. I am a fan of all football.

Mr. Ypsi

You honestly think any NAIA team could stay with Grand Valley?  Could you send me some of what you're smoking? ;)

4 TDs over any individual team; 2 TDs over the All-Star team.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: footballfever on December 14, 2005, 10:56:17 PM
By the way the Massey rankings are a joke! They don't know anything about most teams they are ranking. Its a good as having a blind man rank the teams. 

I don't know why this statement was so profound that you had to post it twice. All I was using it was to say that the two teams you mentioned are bad Division III teams, and you can't argue against that.

I notice you didn't even try.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

wildcat11

Quote from: footballfever on December 14, 2005, 10:38:36 PM
I would say just check the at least the top 40-45 teams in NAIA they all offer at least 15 or more scholarships and probably more than half of those the very close to or the full 24 scholarships (some I know offer much more than 24 with the redshirts rule). 

So you are saying 20-25 NAIA schools (a little under 1/4th of the football membership) plays with the full 24 scholarships?  Now, that is funny.  Just don't blurt out some crap and try to pass it along as fact.  Can you provide us with a list of schools that give out the full amount of scholarships?  I don't think you can.


repete

Fever's delusional. He sites Azusa vs. Trinity on ``there'' home field. There are plenty of other examples. In each of the past few years, d3 teams have beaten nationally ranked NAIA teams.

Whitewater has beaten St. Xavier three straight times, including twice when they were middle of the pack in the WIAC. It took a last-second 47-yard field goal for St. Ambrose, another top 15 NAIA team and playoff selection, to beat IIAC non-contender Loras on the Bees' field. Other than St. Francis (No.2) vs. UWEC (No. 19) NAIA victories over ranked d3 teams have been exceedingly rare.

No matchups of top teams? How about 2003, Linfield was No. 7 and S. Oregon was No. 5 -- want to guess who won Fever?

Throw a few facts at this guy and he'll fade away.