FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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wally_wabash

Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

ncc_fan

#35116
Of all the two-loss teams, only George Fox is ahead of Wheaton in the poll.  I suppose one could argue that George Fox doesn't have a signature win like Wheaton's, but George Fox's losses look better (28-30 vs. UW Platteville, 6-12 vs. Linfield).

izzy stradlin

Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part. 

ncc_fan

#35118
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part.
Fluke play:  Wheatonese for 'penalty'.    ;)

wally_wabash

Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part.

No.  Things like that DON'T happen every week.  That was my point.  There was not a 60 minute game there.  There were two very distinct 30-minute games on completely different days.  That's weird.  And that's a lot more difficult to digest than two halves played consecutively in a three hour window on the same day.  I get that it was the same for both teams and all of that, but that wasn't a normal "game" by any stretch and voters are not treating it as such. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

izzy stradlin

Quote from: ncc_fan on October 22, 2017, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part.
Fluke play:  Wheatonese for 'penalty'.

How about flukish penalty.   Is that better?   ;)   

izzy stradlin

Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 11:15:47 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part.

No.  Things like that DON'T happen every week.  That was my point.  There was not a 60 minute game there.  There were two very distinct 30-minute games on completely different days.  That's weird.  And that's a lot more difficult to digest than two halves played consecutively in a three hour window on the same day.  I get that it was the same for both teams and all of that, but that wasn't a normal "game" by any stretch and voters are not treating it as such.

You are giving yourself and the voters way too much credit to read beyond 60 minutes of football.   The first half was very close (6 points). The second wasn't.  Of course if it was finished the same night the result wouldn't be exactly the same. But you're assuming you know how it would've been different.   

Pat Coleman

Izzy -- as a voter who *does* take quite a bit of time on his ballot and following Division III football every week, it was a difficult puzzle to unravel for me. Despite what you expect from voters, the Wheaton resume is a complicated one to rank vis-a-vis North Central, IWU and Millikin.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

ncc_fan

Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:19:27 PM
Quote from: ncc_fan on October 22, 2017, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part.
Fluke play:  Wheatonese for 'penalty'.

How about flukish penalty.   Is that better?   ;)
Sure, I'll accept that and update my post.

Fluke play:  Wheatonese for 'penalty'. 
Flukish penalty:  Wheatonese for 'personal foul'.   ;)

izzy stradlin

Quote from: ncc_fan on October 23, 2017, 01:00:18 AM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:19:27 PM
Quote from: ncc_fan on October 22, 2017, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on October 22, 2017, 10:37:55 PM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Also Wheaton blew out the No. 4 team team in the country and went for No. 1 ORV (#26) to #23.  Okay.

Where should Wheaton be ranked?  I don't think voters get to forgive two losses after Wheaton made the most of a do-over last week.  I know that's not a popular opinion in here, but last week's game with North Central isn't just 42-20: full stop.  It just isn't that easy to deal with for poll voters.

I think 23 is perfect.   That game was 13-7 NCC at 30 min with another Wheaton TD called back on a fluke play.  With a sample of 60 minutes Wheaton won big.  That's the result. Stuff like that happens every week. 

I don't expect a ton from someone who votes a poll like this so you're right about the last part.
Fluke play:  Wheatonese for 'penalty'.

How about flukish penalty.   Is that better?   ;)
Sure, I'll accept that and update my post.

Fluke play:  Wheatonese for 'penalty'. 
Flukish penalty:  Wheatonese for 'personal foul'.   ;)

LOL.  Perfect   :)

wally_wabash

Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:31:38 PM
You are giving yourself and the voters way too much credit to read beyond 60 minutes of football.   The first half was very close (6 points). The second wasn't.  Of course if it was finished the same night the result wouldn't be exactly the same. But you're assuming you know how it would've been different.

Not in the slightest.  I have no idea how it would have been different- that's the entire point, izzy.  I don't think the voters have assumed one thing or the other with respect to that result.  North Central got knocked down some.  Wheaton got pushed up some.  Maybe the degrees aren't what you like or what you think Wheaton deserves, but that's all a product of 1) there not having been a traditional game played vs. North Central and 2) Wheaton has still lost two games.   

I guess Wheaton can prove the voters wrong in the tournament in a few weeks. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

Kovo

Quote from: wally_wabash on October 23, 2017, 09:51:13 AM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:31:38 PM
You are giving yourself and the voters way too much credit to read beyond 60 minutes of football.   The first half was very close (6 points). The second wasn't.  Of course if it was finished the same night the result wouldn't be exactly the same. But you're assuming you know how it would've been different.

Not in the slightest.  I have no idea how it would have been different- that's the entire point, izzy.  I don't think the voters have assumed one thing or the other with respect to that result.  North Central got knocked down some.  Wheaton got pushed up some.  Maybe the degrees aren't what you like or what you think Wheaton deserves, but that's all a product of 1) there not having been a traditional game played vs. North Central and 2) Wheaton has still lost two games.   

I guess Wheaton can prove the voters wrong in the tournament in a few weeks.

Maybe.  Lots would have to happen.  Let me know if I am wrong, but my quick research indicates that only one CCIW team has ever made the playoffs with two conference losses (2008 Wheaton).  Seems to be a long shot based on historical results.

HAMBO

Assuming NC wins out the rest of the season, would either Wesleyan or Millikin be considered for playoffs with only one loss?  IWU really is the better of the 2 teams, so I believe they would be much more likely.  Also Carthage most likely will beat MU this weekend in Carthage. Interesting to note that on the MU 2-deep 44 man lineup only 3 are seniors and 14 are freshmen.  They are scary good for an underclass roster.

izzy stradlin

Quote from: wally_wabash on October 23, 2017, 09:51:13 AM
Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 22, 2017, 11:31:38 PM
You are giving yourself and the voters way too much credit to read beyond 60 minutes of football.   The first half was very close (6 points). The second wasn't.  Of course if it was finished the same night the result wouldn't be exactly the same. But you're assuming you know how it would've been different.

Not in the slightest.  I have no idea how it would have been different- that's the entire point, izzy.  I don't think the voters have assumed one thing or the other with respect to that result.  North Central got knocked down some.  Wheaton got pushed up some.  Maybe the degrees aren't what you like or what you think Wheaton deserves, but that's all a product of 1) there not having been a traditional game played vs. North Central and 2) Wheaton has still lost two games.   

I guess Wheaton can prove the voters wrong in the tournament in a few weeks.

No, by placing less value on the result of that game because it was under unusual circumstances, you are assuming that the second half would have been more like the first if it hadn't.     

I don't even really think Wheaton should be ranked any differently.  I just thought it was interesting they didn't move much after that result.  Also, I don't think Wheaton will be in the tournament. 

wally_wabash

Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 23, 2017, 01:07:04 PM
No, by placing less value on the result of that game because it was under unusual circumstances, you are assuming that the second half would have been more like the first if it hadn't.     

It's not an assumption of anything.  It's more of an incomplete grade than anything else.  You keep saying that the voters are assuming one thing but that's not the case- and in doing so aren't you making the assumption that a second half on Saturday night would have gone the same way it did on Monday?  It's hard to process a game that is so severely bifurcated. 

Quote from: izzy stradlin on October 23, 2017, 01:07:04 PM
I don't even really think Wheaton should be ranked any differently.  I just thought it was interesting they didn't move much after that result.  Also, I don't think Wheaton will be in the tournament.

This really doesn't jive with the swipe you took at the poll that started the conversation.  If Wheaton's placement is fair, why the knock? 

And I don't think Wheaton will be in the tournament either, but Heidelberg folding like a lawn chair helped immensely.  Before that result, there was absolutely no way for Wheaton to go in.  Now, I think there's a plausible path for Wheaton to get to the table.  Still a lot of dominoes to fall, but those dominoes can fall for anybody who remembers the 2008 week 11 playoff bubble apocalypse. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire