The Top 10 Eastern Region teams of the D3football.com Era

Started by pg04, June 30, 2007, 04:13:03 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pumkinattack

Quote from: AUPepBand on June 16, 2009, 11:32:04 PM

You're right, Pumpkin....Pep went through the entire East Region as they appear on this website...65 teams if Pep remembers correctly. Indeed, that includes the exclusive group that has resulted in domination for Trinity and humiliation for Hamilton, although the Continentals will continue to improve their record under Stetson.

Pep only wishes Hobart had chosen to host his Saxons Oct. 17, 2009 to provide a solid tenth game for both programs. But Pep understands that with its sights on the NCAA Playoffs, a Hobart team that is 8-1 with one loss in the LL has a much better chance at a Pool C than an 8-2 Hobart team. Hobart has nothing to gain by beating Alfred but a loss would be devastating. That's the one thing Pep regrets with the NCAA Playoffs...it plays too much into scheduling when in the pre-tourney days, everyone was happy to meet for a backyard brawl for gridiron bragging rights.


I'd like to continue to play AU and IC (drop MMA if they weren't a league game, makes no sense to have in the conference except to rattle RPI's cage last year), but I think they'd only add one of those by dropping another game, e.g. not playing ten.  It's hard because I also like having Dickinson, which has been a longstanding game, every year since at least 1995 and Carnegie Mellon/Franklin & Marshall for the geographic diversity from NYS play.  Unless they go back to a tenth game, and unfortunately I don't see it happening except for as a filler as Susquehanna goes out of the LL on a temporary basis, I can't see Bart swapping either of their first two OOC games for either AU or IC.  It'd be interesting to see who they did add if there was a tenth game on the schedule, if it came down to AU or IC. 

In fairness, Hobart has won it's share of pool A bids since 2004 also, so it's not like they're going into the season assuming to have to take a pool C.  Typically, Hobart has been the only on of the LL's big three to not drop a stupid game to a non big three and is 7-3 vs. RPI and 5-5 vs. Union in this past decade.  RPI-Union is pretty even (don't know exactly).  It's also not like we play patsies (re: RPI) in OOC.  Dickinson should be pretty good with an excellent WR and solid D coming back and Carnegie is usually pretty good, if an odd offense to play.  If I was dropping one, it'd be Carnegie.  We've beaten them the last two years, but the game is brutal.  We lost a Will LB ( FR Reggie Robinson) and they just punish the right side of your D with big blockers/RB's and FB's all day and its an offense you're not likely to see again.  This year the secondary and outside should be stronger than the interior for Bart, though. 

Quote from: Jonny Utah on June 17, 2009, 12:23:18 AM

Well of those 9 games, 4 were playoff games (3 NCAA and an ECAC game), and most were against the LL's best team.  So I don't feel too bad, as they would probably have a better record against those teams if they played them every year.

And if IC is putting St. Lawrence and Union on the regular season slate, I can only imagine that Hobart will go back on in the near future as well.

Hobart/Ithaca seems like just a natrual upstate rivalry game that should be played every year.  1-2 hour day trip games between two teams like IC and Hobart are too hard to pass up..........but this makes me think again about these automatic bids and why I don't like them.  Pool A bids make some teams think about playing the best teams around.  I know they are good for d3 sports in general, but I still don't like them.

I liked the IC-Hobart game even though I caught the tail end of IC's dominance (although that 96 game in the COLD was pretty close).  Took until 2000's shutout to get that monkey off the back.  Battle of the Native American Finger Lakes?  If it takes you two hours, to Geneva your driving way to slow or cutting across to Watkins Glen and then up.  It's 96 all the way (or if you like a little more scenic, 89 until the Ovid cutover to 96) in an hour tops. 

You'll quickly improve your LL record if you are going to schedule SLU regularly. 


redswarm81

Quote from: Jonny Utah on June 16, 2009, 12:26:17 PM
. . .

-Ithaca has played these teams in 68 games since 1999.

-They are 44-24 with a .647 winning percentage against teams in the top 20 for wins.
. . .

Heres the break down

Versus the top 20
. . .

curry      0-1


Boy, that one entry sure looks odd.

Quote from: slick on June 16, 2009, 01:07:00 PM

Like to see a winning pct list for the last 5 years, ... is that info handy?


The 9 game schedules would probably bump RPI and 'bart ahead of WideNer in winning percentage.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

Bombers798891

I'm reviving a zombie thread because I had an interesting chat with Mike Welch last week, and we were discussing the best Bomber teams/players of the past dozen or so years, and I mentioned that I've always believed his 2004 team was his best. He smiled, nodded, and said "Yup". I think the 2001 and 2003 Bomber teams got mentioned on here, and I understand why—they won two playoff games; the 2004 team missed the NCAA's completely—but I think that 2004 team is criminally underrated. It was interesting to hear that seconded by Welch

ITH radio

that is interesting re welch - btw how is he doing health wise?

recall him stepping down due to issues w. his heart this season.  good to hear he's doing ok and talking shop. 

On a separate note, we should throw the 2012 statesmen into this category now too. 
Follow us on twitter @D3FBHuddle

lewdogg11

This is meant in now way to put down 2012 Hobart, but my biggest issue here with ranking them among the Top 10 is that we really don't know how good they were.  For all we know Widener, Cortland, and even Salisbury, Rowan, Fisher, Kean, Lyco or Del Val could have beaten Washington & Lee and Wittenburg.  Maybe not, but because of the unfamiliarity, it's tough to rank where they are in the East.  Would I put them in the Top 10?  Sure.  Where?  Tough call, but probably in the 8-10 range.

Bombers798891

Quote from: ITH radio on December 18, 2012, 01:32:55 PM
that is interesting re welch - btw how is he doing health wise?

recall him stepping down due to issues w. his heart this season.  good to hear he's doing ok and talking shop. 

On a separate note, we should throw the 2012 statesmen into this category now too.

He was in good spirits and said he felt fine, which is great to hear

pumkinattack

Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
This is meant in now way to put down 2012 Hobart, but my biggest issue here with ranking them among the Top 10 is that we really don't know how good they were.  For all we know Widener, Cortland, and even Salisbury, Rowan, Fisher, Kean, Lyco or Del Val could have beaten Washington & Lee and Wittenburg.  Maybe not, but because of the unfamiliarity, it's tough to rank where they are in the East.  Would I put them in the Top 10?  Sure.  Where?  Tough call, but probably in the 8-10 range.

That's fair and the OOC wasn't great this year as well.  I felt like the 2008 and 2011 Hobart teams were as good as any in the East, but because they got MUC in Round 2 and Wesley in Round 1 those years, other teams were sort of crowned best of the East.  The idea that the 2008 Cortland team was so great doesn't resonate with me at all as they had a cakewalk through the first two rounds.  Last year, well I just think (to steal a phrase from a prior post) that Hobart was criminally underrated.  Same team as this year basically with better receivers (slightly weaker at one or two defensive positions) and end up unranked because of an oddball loss to RPI (the team that the league game gave their QB Offensive Player of the Year two years running) where we had no kicking game (couldn't make one from 5 yards out literally) on a wild comeback. 

It's an extension of the same argument we (east) have vs the rest of the region.  Guys claiming that the East's best would be #3 or #4 in a top conference meanwhile Hobart laid waste to the team that dropped 52 on the OAC #2.  W&L is a good team, IMO, could compete with the top of the East's conferences.  Not saying they'd win, but they'd perform as well as Springfield/SJF/IC/AU did this year (8-3 and you can argue after they lost their top 2-3 QB's that you could really write off the first few games).  I'm not really how good Wittenburg is.  That conference is more or less on par with the LL overall.  Considering that most of the experts had Heidelberg going to St Thomas, the fact Witt went to their field and put up 52 is fairly impressive.  By virtue of the east region fan poll and the people who follow the East closely, its safe to say that Hobart/Widener are the top 2.  Widener did beat Sals in Round 2 and Sals won the E8 so that knocks out SJF.  Kean and Rowan, I don't know bout the NJAC, but they still get street cred for what Rowan did back when I was playing (and I feel old).  Lyco and Del Val, they both lost to Widener.  Basically Widener can stand tall over those guys.  You have to extrapolate a little more for Hobart and the W&L game doesn't tell much (other than they held the best rushing team in the country - better than Sals, to half their total) other than a good win, but I think the Wittenberg win, by a large margin in a game that was over well before the 4th quarter tells a pretty good story for them. 

lewdogg11

Quote from: pumkinattack on December 18, 2012, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
This is meant in now way to put down 2012 Hobart, but my biggest issue here with ranking them among the Top 10 is that we really don't know how good they were.  For all we know Widener, Cortland, and even Salisbury, Rowan, Fisher, Kean, Lyco or Del Val could have beaten Washington & Lee and Wittenburg.  Maybe not, but because of the unfamiliarity, it's tough to rank where they are in the East.  Would I put them in the Top 10?  Sure.  Where?  Tough call, but probably in the 8-10 range.

That's fair and the OOC wasn't great this year as well.  I felt like the 2008 and 2011 Hobart teams were as good as any in the East, but because they got MUC in Round 2 and Wesley in Round 1 those years, other teams were sort of crowned best of the East.  The idea that the 2008 Cortland team was so great doesn't resonate with me at all as they had a cakewalk through the first two rounds.  Last year, well I just think (to steal a phrase from a prior post) that Hobart was criminally underrated.  Same team as this year basically with better receivers (slightly weaker at one or two defensive positions) and end up unranked because of an oddball loss to RPI (the team that the league game gave their QB Offensive Player of the Year two years running) where we had no kicking game (couldn't make one from 5 yards out literally) on a wild comeback. 

It's an extension of the same argument we (east) have vs the rest of the region.  Guys claiming that the East's best would be #3 or #4 in a top conference meanwhile Hobart laid waste to the team that dropped 52 on the OAC #2.  W&L is a good team, IMO, could compete with the top of the East's conferences.  Not saying they'd win, but they'd perform as well as Springfield/SJF/IC/AU did this year (8-3 and you can argue after they lost their top 2-3 QB's that you could really write off the first few games).  I'm not really how good Wittenburg is.  That conference is more or less on par with the LL overall.  Considering that most of the experts had Heidelberg going to St Thomas, the fact Witt went to their field and put up 52 is fairly impressive.  By virtue of the east region fan poll and the people who follow the East closely, its safe to say that Hobart/Widener are the top 2.  Widener did beat Sals in Round 2 and Sals won the E8 so that knocks out SJF.  Kean and Rowan, I don't know bout the NJAC, but they still get street cred for what Rowan did back when I was playing (and I feel old).  Lyco and Del Val, they both lost to Widener.  Basically Widener can stand tall over those guys.  You have to extrapolate a little more for Hobart and the W&L game doesn't tell much (other than they held the best rushing team in the country - better than Sals, to half their total) other than a good win, but I think the Wittenberg win, by a large margin in a game that was over well before the 4th quarter tells a pretty good story for them.

I'm totally with you.  And I would definitely rank Hobart #1 in the East this year with Widener a close 2.  But it's a strange feeling not to know where they stand overall in recent history.  RPI in 2003 beat a really good Ithaca team and what I thought was a National Championship caliber Springfield team.  It was easier to gauge them.  Like you kind of said, my major issue was were they even better than Widener?  We really have no way to be sure.  I feel like to us East people, the Widener victory over Salisbury holds more water than Hobart beating W&L or Witt.  Only because we are more familiar with them and their strength in comparison to the rest of the region.  But then they went and got blown out by Mount and it got tarnished. 

Hobart season was a great one, but it didn't have that marquee win or close loss to a great team.  Almost beating Wesley last year and blowing out Fisher made the 2011 team appear more impressive to me.

Bombers798891

Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 04:25:21 PM
Quote from: pumkinattack on December 18, 2012, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
This is meant in now way to put down 2012 Hobart, but my biggest issue here with ranking them among the Top 10 is that we really don't know how good they were.  For all we know Widener, Cortland, and even Salisbury, Rowan, Fisher, Kean, Lyco or Del Val could have beaten Washington & Lee and Wittenburg.  Maybe not, but because of the unfamiliarity, it's tough to rank where they are in the East.  Would I put them in the Top 10?  Sure.  Where?  Tough call, but probably in the 8-10 range.

That's fair and the OOC wasn't great this year as well.  I felt like the 2008 and 2011 Hobart teams were as good as any in the East, but because they got MUC in Round 2 and Wesley in Round 1 those years, other teams were sort of crowned best of the East.  The idea that the 2008 Cortland team was so great doesn't resonate with me at all as they had a cakewalk through the first two rounds.  Last year, well I just think (to steal a phrase from a prior post) that Hobart was criminally underrated.  Same team as this year basically with better receivers (slightly weaker at one or two defensive positions) and end up unranked because of an oddball loss to RPI (the team that the league game gave their QB Offensive Player of the Year two years running) where we had no kicking game (couldn't make one from 5 yards out literally) on a wild comeback. 

It's an extension of the same argument we (east) have vs the rest of the region.  Guys claiming that the East's best would be #3 or #4 in a top conference meanwhile Hobart laid waste to the team that dropped 52 on the OAC #2.  W&L is a good team, IMO, could compete with the top of the East's conferences.  Not saying they'd win, but they'd perform as well as Springfield/SJF/IC/AU did this year (8-3 and you can argue after they lost their top 2-3 QB's that you could really write off the first few games).  I'm not really how good Wittenburg is.  That conference is more or less on par with the LL overall.  Considering that most of the experts had Heidelberg going to St Thomas, the fact Witt went to their field and put up 52 is fairly impressive.  By virtue of the east region fan poll and the people who follow the East closely, its safe to say that Hobart/Widener are the top 2.  Widener did beat Sals in Round 2 and Sals won the E8 so that knocks out SJF.  Kean and Rowan, I don't know bout the NJAC, but they still get street cred for what Rowan did back when I was playing (and I feel old).  Lyco and Del Val, they both lost to Widener.  Basically Widener can stand tall over those guys.  You have to extrapolate a little more for Hobart and the W&L game doesn't tell much (other than they held the best rushing team in the country - better than Sals, to half their total) other than a good win, but I think the Wittenberg win, by a large margin in a game that was over well before the 4th quarter tells a pretty good story for them.

I'm totally with you.  And I would definitely rank Hobart #1 in the East this year with Widener a close 2.  But it's a strange feeling not to know where they stand overall in recent history.  RPI in 2003 beat a really good Ithaca team and what I thought was a National Championship caliber Springfield team.  It was easier to gauge them.  Like you kind of said, my major issue was were they even better than Widener?  We really have no way to be sure.  I feel like to us East people, the Widener victory over Salisbury holds more water than Hobart beating W&L or Witt.  Only because we are more familiar with them and their strength in comparison to the rest of the region.  But then they went and got blown out by Mount and it got tarnished. 

Hobart season was a great one, but it didn't have that marquee win or close loss to a great team.  Almost beating Wesley last year and blowing out Fisher made the 2011 team appear more impressive to me.

Man, that Springfield/IC/RPI trio in 2003 was really good. Springfield took a nasty Ithaca team to the cleaners that season...

bman

Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 04:25:21 PM
Quote from: pumkinattack on December 18, 2012, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
This is meant in now way to put down 2012 Hobart, but my biggest issue here with ranking them among the Top 10 is that we really don't know how good they were.  For all we know Widener, Cortland, and even Salisbury, Rowan, Fisher, Kean, Lyco or Del Val could have beaten Washington & Lee and Wittenburg.  Maybe not, but because of the unfamiliarity, it's tough to rank where they are in the East.  Would I put them in the Top 10?  Sure.  Where?  Tough call, but probably in the 8-10 range.

That's fair and the OOC wasn't great this year as well.  I felt like the 2008 and 2011 Hobart teams were as good as any in the East, but because they got MUC in Round 2 and Wesley in Round 1 those years, other teams were sort of crowned best of the East.  The idea that the 2008 Cortland team was so great doesn't resonate with me at all as they had a cakewalk through the first two rounds.  Last year, well I just think (to steal a phrase from a prior post) that Hobart was criminally underrated.  Same team as this year basically with better receivers (slightly weaker at one or two defensive positions) and end up unranked because of an oddball loss to RPI (the team that the league game gave their QB Offensive Player of the Year two years running) where we had no kicking game (couldn't make one from 5 yards out literally) on a wild comeback. 

It's an extension of the same argument we (east) have vs the rest of the region.  Guys claiming that the East's best would be #3 or #4 in a top conference meanwhile Hobart laid waste to the team that dropped 52 on the OAC #2.  W&L is a good team, IMO, could compete with the top of the East's conferences.  Not saying they'd win, but they'd perform as well as Springfield/SJF/IC/AU did this year (8-3 and you can argue after they lost their top 2-3 QB's that you could really write off the first few games).  I'm not really how good Wittenburg is.  That conference is more or less on par with the LL overall.  Considering that most of the experts had Heidelberg going to St Thomas, the fact Witt went to their field and put up 52 is fairly impressive.  By virtue of the east region fan poll and the people who follow the East closely, its safe to say that Hobart/Widener are the top 2.  Widener did beat Sals in Round 2 and Sals won the E8 so that knocks out SJF.  Kean and Rowan, I don't know bout the NJAC, but they still get street cred for what Rowan did back when I was playing (and I feel old).  Lyco and Del Val, they both lost to Widener.  Basically Widener can stand tall over those guys.  You have to extrapolate a little more for Hobart and the W&L game doesn't tell much (other than they held the best rushing team in the country - better than Sals, to half their total) other than a good win, but I think the Wittenberg win, by a large margin in a game that was over well before the 4th quarter tells a pretty good story for them.

I'm totally with you.  And I would definitely rank Hobart #1 in the East this year with Widener a close 2.  But it's a strange feeling not to know where they stand overall in recent history.  RPI in 2003 beat a really good Ithaca team and what I thought was a National Championship caliber Springfield team.  It was easier to gauge them.  Like you kind of said, my major issue was were they even better than Widener?  We really have no way to be sure.  I feel like to us East people, the Widener victory over Salisbury holds more water than Hobart beating W&L or Witt.  Only because we are more familiar with them and their strength in comparison to the rest of the region.  But then they went and got blown out by Mount and it got tarnished.  Hobart season was a great one, but it didn't have that marquee win or close loss to a great team.  Almost beating Wesley last year and blowing out Fisher made the 2011 team appear more impressive to me.

Barring UHMB, Wesley, ST Thomas and Osh Kosh, I think all East teams fare the same against UMU right now...

Bombers798891

Quote from: LewDogg11 on December 18, 2012, 04:25:21 PM

Hobart season was a great one, but it didn't have that marquee win or close loss to a great team.  Almost beating Wesley last year and blowing out Fisher made the 2011 team appear more impressive to me.

I'm going to go with the 2012 team. Seven wins in a bad conference is a pretty paltry resume. But that 2011 team was good too

pumkinattack

One of those wins was 56-20 at Fisher.  Supposedly the 8th best team in the country at the end of the season (and Fisher beat the crap out of Hobart the year before when we were opening the new Boswell field so it was turn about so to speak). 

So really you'd be comparing 7-2 (2011) 1-1 vs ranked teams both on the road (aforementioned Fisher game & close loss to Wesley in Rnd 1), OOC wins vs Dickinson & SJF, loss to RPI (1pt, we missed multiple FG's from close and Hermann played the half of his career after being down 28-7)  vs.

12-1 (2012) 1-1 vs ranked teams w at home l on the road (and not a "good" loss, but circumstances certainly didn't break Hobart's way which did impact the final score by 14pts or so).  OOC wins (all by 20 or more) vs Dickinson, Geneva & Utica.  No reg season losses. 

I think if you gave the 2011 team the path Hobart had this year or SJF's path last year, the 2011 team would have finished 9-2, but that's the nature of the draw.  This is the first year it's really helped Hobart out.  Of the past I don't know how many (7-10 or so), they've gotten a couple of good first round draws, but a couple of bad ones, but rarely has the second round been a team below the top 10 in the country and all on the road.  Hopefully they can earn better draws in future years, but it's clear (and Pat mentioned it on in the huddle at one point, shortly after the MMA game) that the collective wisdom does incorporate this notion that it's how far you go in the playoffs and also that they often look at final scores (same podcast thinking the MMA game was genuinely close because they closed the game from 35-6 going into the 4th to 42-21 or whatever the final score was vs the deep backups).  I think both of those notions are fallible, but I don't vote or get that involved, so it's just a private complaint (perhaps shared by others).   

Bombers798891

Quote from: pumkinattack on December 19, 2012, 02:25:05 PM
One of those wins was 56-20 at Fisher.  Supposedly the 8th best team in the country at the end of the season (and Fisher beat the crap out of Hobart the year before when we were opening the new Boswell field so it was turn about so to speak). 

So really you'd be comparing 7-2 (2011) 1-1 vs ranked teams both on the road (aforementioned Fisher game & close loss to Wesley in Rnd 1), OOC wins vs Dickinson & SJF, loss to RPI (1pt, we missed multiple FG's from close and Hermann played the half of his career after being down 28-7)  vs.

12-1 (2012) 1-1 vs ranked teams w at home l on the road (and not a "good" loss, but circumstances certainly didn't break Hobart's way which did impact the final score by 14pts or so).  OOC wins (all by 20 or more) vs Dickinson, Geneva & Utica.  No reg season losses. 


That RPI loss is one of the big things. That was a 4-5 team that did not beat a single other team with a winning record and lost to a 2-7 WPI and a 3-7 MM. It may have been a fluky sort of game, but this season's Hobart team played a bunch of teams that were probably as good, if not better than that RPI team, and won impressively.


pumkinattack

That's fine.  I love both teams.  It was a fluky game and I still don't know what the hell happened as we were up 28-7 at the half.  Comes down to the argument of who you beat vs. who you played/lost to.  That debate goes on every year in all regions. 

Interestingly, w the St Thomas game - we lost Devin Worthington on the first defensive play (from our 4 on a bad snap on a punt) - either 1b or #2 most important guy on the team and the magnitude of the dropoff to the backup is massive (with all due respect to Dimarco, Hearon and the rest of the SS/OLB's).  I see the Linfield guys claiming their game with OshKosh could've been different had they not lost to a defensive player (Dom Forrest - LB & 2nd team AA from D3FB.com).  Depth matters when you get to that point, but there's a handful of guys that just can't be replaced mid season every year.  Usually a QB or RB, but sometimes it's defense.  We played better without Strang and our #3 WR last year vs. Wesley than we did w/o Worthington vs. St Thomas. 

Pat Coleman

Of course, the Oshkosh-Linfield game went to overtime. A lot easier to sell the "one guy can make a difference" line of thinking there.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.