Author Topic: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference  (Read 3882530 times)

Offline Nescacman

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1032
  • Karma: -310
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18900 on: December 10, 2021, 09:54:10 pm »
It is hard to gauge without the OOC games to compare. When you do make the playoffs, a lot of it has to do with who/where you get matched. The final 4 this weekend are playing at a very high level and 99% of the teams nationally cannot hang for a variety of reasons (which is a whole other meaningful discussion IMHO).

Muhlenberg, Hopkins and RPI have recently done very well and gone pretty far in the last few years. Not taking ANYTHING away from them, they got competitive draws/winnable games. It is REALLY HARD to get into the semifinals. Right now, I think it would be very difficult for a NESCAC to accomplish going that deep. However, top to bottom the NESCAC is not that different from the Centennial. I have watched enough games of both over the years to make an educated comparison. The bottom is BAD though. Improving, but historically uncompetitive. Similar in Centennial. with a top middle and bottom.

I would have loved to see Williams play Endicott, RPI, Springfield, Cortland, Del Val, W&L, Anna Maria, Carnegie Mellon or Framingham in the first round this year. Heck, even Hopkins, Salisbury or Muhlenberg. I AM NOT saying they would beat all those teams. But, they could/would beat their share of them and the games would be competitive. NESCAC champ could win a game or two and get knocked out once it runs into a Mt Union, et alia.

NESCAC would be held back with roster limits (check out the roster sizes of the final 4 teams), admissions limitations, cost of school, no Spring practice, no in school recruiting. Roster limit is the biggie. In other sports, it is not as magnified.

I am personally not a fan of the playoff arrangement in D3 for football. There are really only a handful of teams that have a shot. I am in favor of playing a rivalry non-conference game and then a plus one bowl at end of year versus another program that adds recruiting/geographical appeal. Why not just play your rivalry games and be done by Thanksgiving and go home? I realize this may not be popular view, but its mine. As a player and coach I HATED practices in late November and into December. Its just a game at the end of the day, win or lose the sun will rise tomorrow. Keep it in the proper perspective.



I am interested in how folks believe NESCAC football teams would compete on a national level IF there were permitted to participate in national playoffs.   I ask the question because last week three NESCAC teams made the NCAA soccer Final Four and two NESCAC teams - Amherst and Connecticut College - were in the finals.  NESCAC is certifiably dominant as a conference nationally in other sports, thus the curiosity.

Now before the long-termers jump down my throat, this is a 100% hypothetical question!   There is zero chance this will happen in our lifetimes.   But it is winter, no football news, so worth discussing perhaps.

I think if the NESCAC decides to allow teams to participate in the NCAA football playoffs, you immediately start out being considered at almost the level of the Liberty League and Centennial teams. I say almost because NESCAC teams have played 10% fewer games, and someone like Muhlenberg, Johns Hopkins, RPI, have played not just four seasons (COVID aside) of 10 games, but 11, 12, 13 and those extra weeks and reps add up for everyone, not just the 58 on the playoff roster.

I think there is absolutely an opportunity for the NESCAC teams to rise above that level once they catch up a bit with those reps, etc.

We agree with the general consensus that the NESCAC D3 play-off rep would be competitive with the Centennial and Liberty reps...

We think they would regularly beat other New England reps like Endicott, Springfield, WNEU, MIT, etc. (based on watching Wesleyan's JV typically do a number on the JV of those and other similar programs over the last 10 years...we use that as a proxy as far as relative strength of program).. 

However, once NESCAC gets to the Wisconsin-Whitewater, Mary Hardin-Baylor, and North Central's of the world, forget it....lights out...we'll relay a personal story...in 2019, a bunch of us went down to Muhlenberg to watch them play North Central (we were curious since we had recruited some kids playing for Muhlenberg)...North Central was big, fast and frankly did not look like any D3 team we had ever seen play in person as they crushed Muhlenberg 45-14...curious, we did some research about North Central and learned that their roster had a bunch of FBS transfers (many from the MAC)...not sure even in a good year NESCAC could compete with that (even with HCOF Raymond at the helm ;D)...

Offline Nescacman

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1032
  • Karma: -310
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18901 on: December 10, 2021, 09:55:40 pm »
Head coaching search in the home stretch at Bates. Very strong pool of candidates. The Alumni search committee looking to wind things down pretty soon. AD Jason Fein and Bates administration managing the process extremely well.

Word out of Lewiston....HCOF Kelton is a finalist....

Offline lumbercat

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1565
  • Karma: 205
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18902 on: December 10, 2021, 10:04:57 pm »
LOL- believe me NM it's a very good pool of candidates. Personally I have vastly underestimated the attraction of a NESCAC HC job. Don't believe they had this level of applicants in 2018.

Offline lumbercat

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1565
  • Karma: 205
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18903 on: December 10, 2021, 10:18:34 pm »
IF they decide to have Spring practices, it would be a nice opportunity for a recruiting day for the schools. I suspect if anything, they may be informal "captains practices" without coaches. I have zero expectation on this...

spring practices!… ;D. Do not believe the Nescac schools have ever had such practices.  Even before there was a “NESCAC”.



Mole-

Just realized you're the only guy with a picture on the board- is that you or your alter ego?

Offline Charlie

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • Karma: -17
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18904 on: December 10, 2021, 11:35:42 pm »
It is hard to gauge without the OOC games to compare. When you do make the playoffs, a lot of it has to do with who/where you get matched. The final 4 this weekend are playing at a very high level and 99% of the teams nationally cannot hang for a variety of reasons (which is a whole other meaningful discussion IMHO).

Muhlenberg, Hopkins and RPI have recently done very well and gone pretty far in the last few years. Not taking ANYTHING away from them, they got competitive draws/winnable games. It is REALLY HARD to get into the semifinals. Right now, I think it would be very difficult for a NESCAC to accomplish going that deep. However, top to bottom the NESCAC is not that different from the Centennial. I have watched enough games of both over the years to make an educated comparison. The bottom is BAD though. Improving, but historically uncompetitive. Similar in Centennial. with a top middle and bottom.

I would have loved to see Williams play Endicott, RPI, Springfield, Cortland, Del Val, W&L, Anna Maria, Carnegie Mellon or Framingham in the first round this year. Heck, even Hopkins, Salisbury or Muhlenberg. I AM NOT saying they would beat all those teams. But, they could/would beat their share of them and the games would be competitive. NESCAC champ could win a game or two and get knocked out once it runs into a Mt Union, et alia.

NESCAC would be held back with roster limits (check out the roster sizes of the final 4 teams), admissions limitations, cost of school, no Spring practice, no in school recruiting. Roster limit is the biggie. In other sports, it is not as magnified.

I am personally not a fan of the playoff arrangement in D3 for football. There are really only a handful of teams that have a shot. I am in favor of playing a rivalry non-conference game and then a plus one bowl at end of year versus another program that adds recruiting/geographical appeal. Why not just play your rivalry games and be done by Thanksgiving and go home? I realize this may not be popular view, but its mine. As a player and coach I HATED practices in late November and into December. Its just a game at the end of the day, win or lose the sun will rise tomorrow. Keep it in the proper perspective.



I am interested in how folks believe NESCAC football teams would compete on a national level IF there were permitted to participate in national playoffs.   I ask the question because last week three NESCAC teams made the NCAA soccer Final Four and two NESCAC teams - Amherst and Connecticut College - were in the finals.  NESCAC is certifiably dominant as a conference nationally in other sports, thus the curiosity.

Now before the long-termers jump down my throat, this is a 100% hypothetical question!   There is zero chance this will happen in our lifetimes.   But it is winter, no football news, so worth discussing perhaps.

I said asked the same question awhile ago and ridiculed. I thinknthe winning team of NESCAC shouldnhave an option of going forward and it would be up to each individual school would want to go in the playoffs. I just think that these kids play and workout hard and should be allowed more games for their effort. Even High School teams play more games than the NESCAC league. Tey can easily play more there season just has to start earlier. No idea why theyreport to college and start season so late. But it would be nice to see them play either one more game or at the least the chmpion play one or more games.

Offline Charlie

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • Karma: -17
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18905 on: December 10, 2021, 11:42:23 pm »
Here is my point, Williams was the best team in the league. Did Williams coaches do a great job? You bet. They got COY, right? Deservedly so. Was it the reason they beat Trinity by 39 and Wesleyan by 25 as you IMPLY? No.

Thanks for clarifying.

Nice try, Mole. Have to throw a flag for your trying to recast my observation into a hypothetical, simply my stating what is obvious to players of football, that the Williams staff had excellent game plans and player preparation with little evidence of countering strategy or in-game adjustments.
The Ephs staff and players simply had a better afternoon in those two games in which their hard work, focus, and attention to detail paid big dividends. No harshness intended ....

Point well taken I tip my hat for the Trinity game. Lets face facts Trinity laid an egg that game. They were not ready to play that day maybe it was travel who knows. Again the game plan was great take nothing away from Williams but lets also understand that Tufts should have beaten them earlier in the season. Lets not crown the staff as the next Belichek disciples.

Offline The Mole

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 282
  • Karma: 40
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18906 on: December 11, 2021, 05:50:34 am »
changed it up for you, Lumber... ;)

IF they decide to have Spring practices, it would be a nice opportunity for a recruiting day for the schools. I suspect if anything, they may be informal "captains practices" without coaches. I have zero expectation on this...

spring practices!… ;D. Do not believe the Nescac schools have ever had such practices.  Even before there was a “NESCAC”.



Mole-

Just realized you're the only guy with a picture on the board- is that you or your alter ego?
TAKE THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED

Offline SpringSt7

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 745
  • Karma: 55
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18907 on: December 11, 2021, 08:24:33 am »
Does anyone know when that banner is going up in Cousens Gymnasium? "Should've beaten Williams in Week 2"?

Offline VoodooDoc

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: 13
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18908 on: December 11, 2021, 10:01:01 am »
During Coach Hammer's tenure at Wabash, the Little Giants defeated North Central in the great comeback game, and lost close games to Mount Union and Wisconsin Whitewater in the playoffs.  Wabash has about 900 students and a football squad of roughly 120 players.  Wisconsin Whitewater is a state school with an enrollment of almost 20,000.  Both North Central and Mount Union have 150 or more players on their respective football squads. 

The real difference that the top 4 or 5 schools have is the depth to be able play a 15 game schedule.   Wabash could stay with Mount Union and Wisconsin Whitewater until late in the third quarter, when you could see the depth of those teams kick in.  Whitewater had a wide receiver who was a D-I transfer and went on to play for the Green Bay Packers.  Wabash had several defensive backs with 4.3 - 4.4 forty speeds, but they did a good job of covering the Wisconsin Whitewater wide receiver, but he had a 3 to 4 inch height advantage and similar speed.

My point is that the NESCAC teams will be able to compete with many of the teams in the D3 playoff, but the top 4 or 5 teams have sheer numbers and depth of talent that a school with a 75 man squad will have difficulty staying with.  Nonetheless, it would be fun to see NESCAC get a shot at the playoffs.  It will improve the quality of play in the conference and because footballs aren't round and take funny bounces - you just never know.

Offline SpringSt7

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 745
  • Karma: 55
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18909 on: December 11, 2021, 10:36:40 am »
The question shouldn't really be "Can the NESCAC schools hang with the big boys in the playoffs?", the question should be "Would joining the playoffs allow the NESCAC schools to build programs that can hang with the big boys?"

Offline JEFFFAN

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 680
  • Karma: 22
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18910 on: December 11, 2021, 02:49:04 pm »
The question shouldn't really be "Can the NESCAC schools hang with the big boys in the playoffs?", the question should be "Would joining the playoffs allow the NESCAC schools to build programs that can hang with the big boys?"

Much better way to put it - thanks.  With similar sized rosters in other sports the NESCAC does exceedingly well.

Offline Nescacman

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1032
  • Karma: -310
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18911 on: December 12, 2021, 12:44:21 am »
It is hard to gauge without the OOC games to compare. When you do make the playoffs, a lot of it has to do with who/where you get matched. The final 4 this weekend are playing at a very high level and 99% of the teams nationally cannot hang for a variety of reasons (which is a whole other meaningful discussion IMHO).

Muhlenberg, Hopkins and RPI have recently done very well and gone pretty far in the last few years. Not taking ANYTHING away from them, they got competitive draws/winnable games. It is REALLY HARD to get into the semifinals. Right now, I think it would be very difficult for a NESCAC to accomplish going that deep. However, top to bottom the NESCAC is not that different from the Centennial. I have watched enough games of both over the years to make an educated comparison. The bottom is BAD though. Improving, but historically uncompetitive. Similar in Centennial. with a top middle and bottom.

I would have loved to see Williams play Endicott, RPI, Springfield, Cortland, Del Val, W&L, Anna Maria, Carnegie Mellon or Framingham in the first round this year. Heck, even Hopkins, Salisbury or Muhlenberg. I AM NOT saying they would beat all those teams. But, they could/would beat their share of them and the games would be competitive. NESCAC champ could win a game or two and get knocked out once it runs into a Mt Union, et alia.

NESCAC would be held back with roster limits (check out the roster sizes of the final 4 teams), admissions limitations, cost of school, no Spring practice, no in school recruiting. Roster limit is the biggie. In other sports, it is not as magnified.

I am personally not a fan of the playoff arrangement in D3 for football. There are really only a handful of teams that have a shot. I am in favor of playing a rivalry non-conference game and then a plus one bowl at end of year versus another program that adds recruiting/geographical appeal. Why not just play your rivalry games and be done by Thanksgiving and go home? I realize this may not be popular view, but its mine. As a player and coach I HATED practices in late November and into December. Its just a game at the end of the day, win or lose the sun will rise tomorrow. Keep it in the proper perspective.



I am interested in how folks believe NESCAC football teams would compete on a national level IF there were permitted to participate in national playoffs.   I ask the question because last week three NESCAC teams made the NCAA soccer Final Four and two NESCAC teams - Amherst and Connecticut College - were in the finals.  NESCAC is certifiably dominant as a conference nationally in other sports, thus the curiosity.

Now before the long-termers jump down my throat, this is a 100% hypothetical question!   There is zero chance this will happen in our lifetimes.   But it is winter, no football news, so worth discussing perhaps.

I said asked the same question awhile ago and ridiculed. I thinknthe winning team of NESCAC shouldnhave an option of going forward and it would be up to each individual school would want to go in the playoffs. I just think that these kids play and workout hard and should be allowed more games for their effort. Even High School teams play more games than the NESCAC league. Tey can easily play more there season just has to start earlier. No idea why theyreport to college and start season so late. But it would be nice to see them play either one more game or at the least the chmpion play one or more games.

Charlie, just to be clear, you asked in October in the middle of the season, not in December when our fellow boardsters like to fantisize about play-offs, roster sizes and teams from Maine being competitive...

Offline Nescacman

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1032
  • Karma: -310
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18912 on: December 12, 2021, 12:48:42 am »
LOL- believe me NM it's a very good pool of candidates. Personally I have vastly underestimated the attraction of a NESCAC HC job. Don't believe they had this level of applicants in 2018.

It really doesn't matter, Coach Hoodie couldn't win at UBates and neither will the next HCOF....not to burst your bubble Lumber but the Bobcats have had exactly one winning season since 1981 (in 2012)....that's 40 years for those keeping score at home...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 01:02:06 am by Nescacman »

Offline Nescacman

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1032
  • Karma: -310
    • View Profile
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18913 on: December 12, 2021, 12:54:18 am »
The question shouldn't really be "Can the NESCAC schools hang with the big boys in the playoffs?", the question should be "Would joining the playoffs allow the NESCAC schools to build programs that can hang with the big boys?"

We are all wasting our breath on the play-off subject....will never happen in our lifetime...in 2022 let's just all enjoy our nine game schedules, bigger rosters, spring practice and tailgating without restriction....that would be enough for us...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 01:01:10 am by Nescacman »

Offline Pat Coleman

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • Administrator
  • All-American
  • *****
  • Posts: 39889
  • Karma: 3088
  • Check the front page or FAQs before you ask.
    • View Profile
    • D3sports.com
Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #18914 on: December 12, 2021, 10:54:32 am »
The question shouldn't really be "Can the NESCAC schools hang with the big boys in the playoffs?", the question should be "Would joining the playoffs allow the NESCAC schools to build programs that can hang with the big boys?"

Much better way to put it - thanks.  With similar sized rosters in other sports the NESCAC does exceedingly well.

Ice hockey and lacrosse are the closest but none is really similar.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Let's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.