2021 NCAA Tournament

Started by d4_Pace, November 08, 2021, 02:45:31 PM

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hiyasoccer

Maybe I missed it because I don't think I've seen anyone claim they don't have extremely good and talented soccer players. They consistently have been one of, if not the most, talented teams in the NESCAC (and country) for years.

PaulNewman

Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 23, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
Maybe I missed it because I don't think I've seen anyone claim they don't have extremely good and talented soccer players. They consistently have been one of, if not the most, talented teams in the NESCAC (and country) for years.

I get your point and I agree about their talent over the years.  Yeah, maybe people haven't used those words exactly, but when complaining about their alleged style with them as well as other teams there seems to be an implication that they do so because of a deficit or lack of ability to win at a high level otherwise.  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.

camosfan

Amherst has 3 great players,not a lot of depth;#10 Cubeddu, #9 Giammattei and#23 Okorogheye!

College Soccer Observer

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 23, 2021, 09:22:38 PM
Quote from: hiyasoccer on November 23, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
Maybe I missed it because I don't think I've seen anyone claim they don't have extremely good and talented soccer players. They consistently have been one of, if not the most, talented teams in the NESCAC (and country) for years.

I get your point and I agree about their talent over the years.  Yeah, maybe people haven't used those words exactly, but when complaining about their alleged style with them as well as other teams there seems to be an implication that they do so because of a deficit or lack of ability to win at a high level otherwise.  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior.  As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win.  Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this. 

midwest

D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing

Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.

Novacat

Quote from: midwest on November 29, 2021, 09:38:04 AM
D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing

Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.

That is very impressive!

camosfan

Quote from: midwest on November 29, 2021, 09:38:04 AM
D1 comment, so my apologies, but this group is about the only one I know who might find this soccer coaching tidbit intriguing

Looking at the 8 teams in the quarterfinals -- Oregon State, Clemson, Pitt, ND, Georgetown, West Virginia, St Louis, and Washington -- 4 have coaches who worked under Bobby Clark at Notre Dame. BJ Craig at Oregon State, Chad Riley at ND, Brian Wiese at Georgetown, and Jamie Clark (Bobby's son) at Washington. Clark's legacy at ND is impressive on its own, but it's fun to see his former assistants achieving great success with their programs as well.

That is serious contribution to the development of the game in this country!

camosfan

At the D3 level , Messiah and Middlebury seems to produce a few successful coaches.

Sabrina76

[  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
[/quote]
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior.  As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win.  Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]

As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac  goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?

Novacat

Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior.  As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win.  Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]

As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac  goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]


Its really kind of undeniable.
Since 2013 (8 seasons) Amherst has led the league in fouls per game 7 times and was 2nd in one season
Since 2013 (8 seasons) Amherst has led the league in yellow cards per game 4 times and was second the other four seasons.

These tactics were deployed despite arguably a talent superiority in most games.  This is the piece I do not understand. 

I saw them play several times this year but will point out one game - home against Trinity.  There were far superior in talent, dominated the game 3-0 victory, 18-1 in shots, yet committed 17 fouls and 4 yellow cards.

Maine Soccer Fan

Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior.  As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win.  Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]

As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac  goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]

As an alum, I think you owe it to yourself to attend a game and stand as close to the Amherst bench as possible. Then judge for yourself.

PaulNewman

Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior.  As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win.  Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]

As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac  goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]

Don't know if this will be helpful and I am by no means an expert on this, but I've been paying attention to the theme here for a decade.

For at least a handful of years I was a bit of skeptic and pushed back some on the trash Amherst campaign (perhaps exaggerated wording but not by much).  I've only watched Amherst in person a couple of times...way back in maybe 2012ish against Bridgewater State and then this year at Tufts.  I have to say I didn't notice anything glaringly untoward in either instance.  That said, the concerns about Amherst behavior clearly go way back and have been noted by a variety of people from multiple teams and fan bases (and even other conferences and regions).  The sheer volume of the complaints from various sources over a long period of time suggests the complaints have validity.  I was appalled by the Amherst behavior in the immediate aftermath of the recent win over Midd.  I can't comment on to what extent Midd may have contributed either in terms of initiation or response, or whether there is a history there preceding that game or events during the game that contributed.  What I did see was some overtly poor sportsmanship and taunting from some Amherst players.

The following is more speculative...but my sense is that at least roughly parallel to Serpone taking over Amherst overtook Williams as the top Nescac program, although Williams continued to be a thorn in Amherst's side including I believe in a season where Amherst was undefeated and was denied a Final 4 trip by the Ephs.  Amherst's dominance often seemed to be linked to very strong talent, but also very physical play with teams that were significantly bigger than other teams.  I don't fully understand the link between the physicality and size of Amherst and the alleged antics, and maybe there is none, but I seem to recall suggestions that Amherst played an over the line aggressive style.  I remember at least one recent Amherst alum back in the day retort that certain players from Williams gave as good as they got.  Anyway, parallel to the Russo retirement, Amherst did fully overtake Williams.  Midd and Bowdoin had their moments over the past decade+, but Amherst clearly became THE Nescac powerhouse.

Then comes Tufts which I assume many would argue knocked the bullies down a peg.  The rise of Tufts imo has mirrored Amherst in at least some respects...high level D3 talent, athleticism, and size/physicality.  Tufts generally enjoys better reviews in terms of style of play, and also has been spared complaints about aggression, antics, etc...with the exception of one notable incident in a Bowdoin game I have referenced before.  Anyway, Tufts rose to equal and surpass the Amherst level of success.  I don't know if Tufts being able to match Amherst's physical play was part of the success or just an artifact, but it does seem that Tufts (at least since 2014) never got punked by Amherst.  I remarked after they played this year that Tufts looked bigger and more physical than Amherst.  If anyone was doing the punking it was Tufts.

One other thing seems clear.  Amherst has been hearing about these complaints with very explicit references to the coach for YEARS.  It appears that the coach and perhaps alums/players have seen no need to adjust and behave better.  To me the alleged behavior is counter-productive.  Some of these schools already can be difficult to embrace for many due to the exclusivity and elitism.  I've said this before, but I think we're in an era where tolerance for exclusivity/elitism is thinner and thinner, and adding poor behavior to the mix creates a look that is less than attractive (and which may be more damaging over time than one  might think).

And of course if Amherst wins the title the program will embrace a vindication narrative and feel quite justified in adopting a smug, defiant attitude regarding all of the above.

Ejay

To quote Mike Tyson, "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".  Amherst apparently does the punching, which is certainly a game plan that can lead to success. But I wouldn't necessarily call them bullies.  It's not like they're the Danbury Trashers.

blue_jays

Quote from: Sabrina76 on November 29, 2021, 06:36:52 PM
[  Often when you see posts about Amherst there is are comments about both their behavior and their style of play as though that almost goes hand in hand.
Obviously I am not a fan of their behavior.  As far as style of play goes, I believe the coach has an obligation to put his team in the best position to win.  Given his track record, it is hard to argue that Serpone is not doing this.
[/quote]

As an alum who gets emailed game summaries and who watches perhaps 3 games a year online, I am curious about the negativity around Serpone and his teams. I have to say I haven't noticed the alleged behavior which has been criticized regularly on this board and wonder what I'm missing. Clearly I never see the verbal side of things online and am more than willing to hear the negatives, but it seems that various posters have strong opinions on the matter and others take it for granted because of that. I recently saw a criticism of the goalie, yet another poster equally strongly criticized another Nescac  goalie with a side comment that goalies are in their own worlds so to speak. Is this forum like many on the net that the loudest voices get to speak the truth or is there really a behavior issue with Amherst soccer?
[/quote]

If you can find the video from the ending of the Amherst-Middlebury NCAA game, you will see what poor sportsmanship really looks like. A thoroughly unlikable group.

MaturinNYC

First, i just want to wish Chicago the best in their latest Final 4 appearance - one of the powers in D3 for the past decade, and a team that does things right in every aspect of the game. As a Rochester fan i've seen them in person once a year since 2016 (twice in 2018) and they always played a quality game based on skill, discipline and quick ball movement. So when not lined up against my Yellowjackets, im a fan.

I've only seen Amherst in person once, in the 2017 second round, and i have to add my voice to the many others who have witnessed their boorish behavior. Their strategy against UR in that game (which was played at Messiah) was best summed up by one of the Messiah video stream commentators after yet another mindless Amherst hoof - "It's like they don't even want the ball". That's probably too harsh (after all they've won a lot of games and even a national title), but it came after Amherst had scored on an early corner, and then spent more than an hour doing nothing but playing and acting negatively - consistent and ugly physical challenges, a constant and mindless noise from their sideline, and an almost comical challenging of every call and out ball in the game. In the end they only hurt themselves as they gave up 2 second half goals and were bounced from the tournament, but it left an impression to say the least. And it wasn't just myself and our fans, as even the Messiah players told our guys the next day how happy they were to "be able to play a soccer game today and not a rugby match".

They are obviously coached that way, and no doubt it probably gives them a bit of energy and edge, but i agree with most of the others here that it can only take you so far - more often than not, quality will win out. Hoping that's the case again next weekend!
Father, club & HS coach, sometime ref and ever a fan of the game