attendance

Started by meadowdale, June 12, 2017, 11:47:15 PM

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Bombers798891

Quote from: meadowdale on June 14, 2017, 04:53:11 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on June 14, 2017, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: meadowdale on June 13, 2017, 04:53:59 PM
Great points. But you have to try and I have seen many a game with no effort at all.

Honestly, I doubt you know the kind of effort teams and schools are putting in behind the scenes. The results may not be what you want, but I doubt it's because of lack of effort.

Classic you made great points backed them up with facts as you know.Then took a cheap shot at my knowledge and insight of business and marketing.

That came across more harshly than intended. I'm sorry that I snapped at you. I shouldn't have. But marketing is a lot like an iceberg. The things you see are a small portion of the work that went into it. And there are a lot of things that the average person can't see.

Let me give you an example: My wife works for a non-profit that provides services to children and adults with disabilities. They've held events for those people where they've been able to attend Cornell athletic events thanks to an involvement with the school's Red Key Athlete Honor Society. (A great thing) But it's not like there's an announcement at the game that this was going on. So if you were just a Cornell fan who lived in town, you'd go to that game and have no idea that there was a group of 20 people scattered in the stands who are there as the result of a months long collaboration between two groups of people.

Or, what about this? Suppose a coach has a friend who runs a local youth group, and the marketing department reached out to the group over the summer to get them to attend the team's home opener, but they couldn't make the logistics work. How would the average fan be aware of those conversations?

crufootball

Quote from: jknezek on June 13, 2017, 09:36:28 AM
I'm going to tack one more addendum on to my attendance comment. I don't know the average DIII liberal arts school size, but I'm guessing it's around 2000 students. Given first and second year classes are bigger than Junior and Senior, I'm guessing you are graduating 400-450 students per year at these schools. If you assume 1 in 50 becomes an alumni football fan, and I'm thinking that might be fairly generous, you are minting 8 to 9 people a year who are going to care enough to come back for games. Translate that to your local Big State U, where the graduating classes are between 5,000 and 15,000 per year. With the same ratio, you are minting 100 to 300 alumni, per year, willing to come back. If you suppose that interest lasts roughly 20 years, until the alumni kids are in h.s. tying up most of your time, that is maybe 200 people for a liberal arts school versus 2000 to 6000 alumni fans.

A lot of the DIII problem is a numbers game. You add to the problem because for a lot of these schools, alumni aren't real local. For Big State U fans, they are almost all local. I live in Birmingham and I can't tell you how many people grow up in the Birmingham metro area, go to Alabama (45 minutes away) and come back and work in Birmingham. For a W&L grad, there were maybe 20 to 30 kids per class from within 45 minutes of Lexington Virginia, and most of them didn't go work in Roanoke or Staunton after graduation. They move away from the rural small schools, making it that much harder to return for a game.

I think this part is a big portion of the picture. I found something on the NCAA website that gave median undergraduate enrollment and you close for D3 with an enrollment 1,860, D2 had 2,530 and D1 was 9,205. When you compare that to average attendance at D3 1954, D2 3459, FCS 8357 and FBS 43,612, a trend is clear. Obvioiusly FBS is another level and basically an outlier to the equation but more or less we are getting about what everyone else does in proportion to the student body size.

I would be very interested to compare schools by their student body size to their attendance at games and see what schools are clearly above or below.

I am sure some schools could do more and some schools do a lot that may go unnoticed but another factor is how much the school really cares about football attendance. Football can be a big time revenue sport for schools, I don't know about schools outside of Texas but many of them have started football as a way to raise enrollment since these kids are paying them for the right to football via school tuition.

Yes by getting more people to come to your football games you may persuade a few of them to come to your school eventually, but if the school is pleased with their enrollment than spending time and money on getting a few hundred more people in the seats is resources that could be spent elsewhere. 

AO

I think we'll start to see more hype videos produced for games like many D1s use.  But ultimately I think it starts with the students themselves.  If they and their friends go and have a good time, they'll come back.  There's not much you can do besides get out of their way.  In my experience watching D3's best conference in terms of attendance, the MIAC, the students have created their own traditions and culture that can't just be copy-pasted to another school. 

hsbsballcoach7

Even UMU has a difficult time getting students to come to games consistently. They bribe them with free entry every game, free pizza, free t shirts and giveaways. We need joy had 4 games last year and 1 was JCU, which helps inflate the stats for an average of 4,500. Take out JCU and the average is 3,000. The problem is that it takes a large amount of fans from BOTH teams in D3 to have a high attendance. Mount has started inviting a small high school band to join them each week and they get to play some songs with UMU's band. It's a win win bc those high school students don't usually get to play in front of more than a coupl of hundred people and UMU gets more parents and students to visit the campus. They've also had some free entry games with canned goods for food pantry or focus on a non profit group.

Like another poster mentioned, it's just as hard as getting people to a minor league baseball game. Good games and good talent can bbe on the field, but if there isn't an alumni or local fan base, attendance just won't happen. It's why I look forward to playing JCU and Baldwin Wallace every year....atmosphere. All of those schools and fans support their teams and it makes for a great stadium atmosphere. Shoot, when Mount played in Berea to play BW last season, there was about 7,000 there.

meadowdale

Folks this is what I was aiming for. Of course it's never gonna be the same for all schools but look at all the ideas in 1 day.
This all came about when our son went to visit then game and there were 100 people in the crowd. The idea was to get
all the fans ,alumni, students and parents with some vision and pull to make the game day better. Game days are some of
my fondest memories and the team was awful but it unified us in the stands. There are a few schools that have it and man is it fun to see!!!!

GillCJ1

Quote from: hsbsballcoach7 on June 15, 2017, 02:17:41 PM
Even UMU has a difficult time getting students to come to games consistently. They bribe them with free entry every game, free pizza, free t shirts and giveaways. We need joy had 4 games last year and 1 was JCU, which helps inflate the stats for an average of 4,500. Take out JCU and the average is 3,000. The problem is that it takes a large amount of fans from BOTH teams in D3 to have a high attendance. Mount has started inviting a small high school band to join them each week and they get to play some songs with UMU's band. It's a win win bc those high school students don't usually get to play in front of more than a coupl of hundred people and UMU gets more parents and students to visit the campus. They've also had some free entry games with canned goods for food pantry or focus on a non profit group.

Like another poster mentioned, it's just as hard as getting people to a minor league baseball game. Good games and good talent can bbe on the field, but if there isn't an alumni or local fan base, attendance just won't happen. It's why I look forward to playing JCU and Baldwin Wallace every year....atmosphere. All of those schools and fans support their teams and it makes for a great stadium atmosphere. Shoot, when Mount played in Berea to play BW last season, there was about 7,000 there.

UMHB has been experimenting with this, too.  Not at every home game, but a couple times a year.  They have them sit on the visitor's side, but on the end closest to our own (Cru Spirit Band is technically just above the corner of the end zone).  I don't know if it helps with getting any of these kids on campus as students, but it definitely helps to fill some seats and liven up the atmosphere.

They also do a sports youth night, where tons of young football players from Central Texas get to watch the game for free and have their school/team announced on the intercom.  I believe there's also a church youth group night, and free (or heavily reduced) entry with canned goods, etc.  So yeah, it seems like a lot of schools are doing similar things.
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meadowdale

Quote from: HansenRatings on June 15, 2017, 10:36:11 AM
This was an article I read last year about how the University of Chicago is putting a big effort into making football a focal point for alumni relations. They have quite a bit bigger alumni base (and profile in general) than pretty much all of DIII, so it's not exactly a template, but it does show that some schools are putting in strides towards promoting games on campus.

https://theringer.com/university-chicago-football-culture-91db25cc0542
great article

meadowdale

Quote from: AO on June 15, 2017, 01:57:34 PM
I think we'll start to see more hype videos produced for games like many D1s use.  But ultimately I think it starts with the students themselves.  If they and their friends go and have a good time, they'll come back.  There's not much you can do besides get out of their way.  In my experience watching D3's best conference in terms of attendance, the MIAC, the students have created their own traditions and culture that can't just be copy-pasted to another school.

AGREE ON MIAC

FCGrizzliesGrad

Quote from: crufootball on June 15, 2017, 01:24:52 PM
I would be very interested to compare schools by their student body size to their attendance at games and see what schools are clearly above or below.
http://stats.ncaa.org/reports/attendance?id=15320
It doesn't have the enrollment figures but it does include stadium size.
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wally_wabash

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on June 15, 2017, 10:05:31 PM
Quote from: crufootball on June 15, 2017, 01:24:52 PM
I would be very interested to compare schools by their student body size to their attendance at games and see what schools are clearly above or below.
http://stats.ncaa.org/reports/attendance?id=15320
It doesn't have the enrollment figures but it does include stadium size.

Enrollments are corralled neatly here
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doolittledog

Quote from: wally_wabash on June 16, 2017, 08:10:46 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on June 15, 2017, 10:05:31 PM
Quote from: crufootball on June 15, 2017, 01:24:52 PM
I would be very interested to compare schools by their student body size to their attendance at games and see what schools are clearly above or below.
http://stats.ncaa.org/reports/attendance?id=15320
It doesn't have the enrollment figures but it does include stadium size.

Enrollments are corralled neatly here.

They get those figures from the Department of Education.  But those don't always tell the whole story.  There are schools like Buena Vista that have off campus centers.  BVU gets counted as having 1,800 students by the Department of Education when what they actually have on campus in Storm Lake is around 800.  Of course, BVU is probably the outlier there, and those figures D3football has are probably mostly accurate within a couple hundred either way. 
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wally_wabash

Ok, here's your list, sorted according to attendance expressed as a percentage of enrollment (click to embiggen). 











"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

Bombers798891

Quote from: hsbsballcoach7 on June 15, 2017, 02:17:41 PM
Even UMU has a difficult time getting students to come to games consistently. They bribe them with free entry every game, free pizza, free t shirts and giveaways.

I think the key is to get away from relying so much generic giveaways (We were all in college. It is not hard to get a free T-shirt or slice of pizza) and tap into the shared social aspect of sports. Like what TCU has done with Tennis: https://www.tcu360.com/story/16998sorority-challenge-increases-fan-attendance-mens-tennis-matches/

Ithaca has done some of this really well. They had a student who was named one of the top college DJs and is really popular, so they had him DJ at a basketball game. They had a dorm room challenge. They have "Bombers supporting Bombers" where a team will select another team's game, go, and encourage other athletes to attend that game. I think that stuff does a lot more than just offering free pizza. (Although IC does that too).

crufootball

Quote from: wally_wabash on June 16, 2017, 09:45:41 AM
Ok, here's your list, sorted according to attendance expressed as a percentage of enrollment (click to embiggen). 













Thanks Wally, did you make that or find it somewhere? Since Wabash is #1, do you think they do anything special?

wally_wabash

Quote from: crufootball on June 16, 2017, 10:00:03 AM
Thanks Wally, did you make that or find it somewhere? Since Wabash is #1, do you think they do anything special?

No, I just made that.  All of the data was already tabulated, so I just went ahead and took a few minutes to do the math and post it. 

RE: Wabash and this list...Wabash has been among the top of the D3 attendance list for a long time now (it's been a pretty sweet ride for about 15 straight years now).  Wabash's community and alumni are really engaged and enthusiastic, particularly on football Saturdays.  I don't know that there is anything "special" that the  College does, per se.  Without beating the Wabash drum too hard here, it really comes down to history, tradition, and pride- 4,000 people go to Wabash games every week because they genuinely care.  There's not free tshirts or free pizza or whatever else- you go because you sincerely want to.  It kind of echos what was said about some of the MIAC schools earlier regarding local traditions and pride and things that you can't necessarily transplant at other schools.  The  year-over-year high attendance can't really be manufactured with gameday promotions IYAM...that stuff will fizzle.  It has to happen organically and be part of the culture. 

That's the deep dive.  Some simpler, mathematical things to consider also are that Wabash has a tiny enrollment (small denominators are helpful for this exercise) and it was Wabash's turn to host the Monon Bell game which provides a big attendance boost every other year. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire