D1 vs D3 comparison

Started by BillWill, October 09, 2018, 07:43:19 AM

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BillWill

Fun question - DON'T take this too seriously.

Using these polls as a "guide"
D1 - https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d1/ncaa-mens-soccer-rpi
D3 - http://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Rankings/College_Rankings/NCAA_DIII_MEN/web/rankings/ncaa/diii_men.aspx

Where in the D1 rankings would you place a Messiah/Chicago/Tufts (a top team)?
Where is the D1 rankings would you place a Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna (a 25th ranked team)?

Where in the D3 rankings would you place VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville (bottom 10 team)?

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I'm not diving too far into this because I don't think any of the DIII top teams would be in the Top 25 in D1. Maybe one or two could get some sniffs, but I don't think it is realistic.

I have seen VMI in person... and while their record (especially over a period of time) is shocking ... they weren't nearly as bad as I thought they would be. They were pretty competitive with a good goalie and solid players. They just aren't as deep and struggled to play as a unit for all 90 minutes. VMI would actually be very successful in DIII IF they kept the same squad in place (versus losing players with no interest playing in DIII). I am not sure where I would put VMI in the DIII Top 25, but I think they would be there for sure.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Hopkins92

Yeah, I think that if even the best d3 squads had to play a full d1 schedule, none of them would stick in the top 25. Not even close.

Could Messiah beat VMI? Sure. That doesn't translate into them being elite at the d1 level.

BillWill

I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?

NEsoccerfan

#4
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

Ejay

The skillset difference between D1 and D3 isn't that great. However, the speed, strength and quickness difference is noticable. As such, I think the top D3 programs can win some games here and there, but would struggle over an entire season.

PaulNewman

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: EB2319 on October 09, 2018, 08:57:00 PM
The skillset difference between D1 and D3 isn't that great. However, the speed, strength and quickness difference is noticable. As such, I think the top D3 programs can win some games here and there, but would struggle over an entire season.

Another thing I have noticed, since I am calling a lot of D1 games now, that is also true in the sport of basketball ... there is a large height difference. I probably don't have to go into detail, but everyone seems to have significant height in D1 while D3 doesn't have that consistently across the roster.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

Last season, Gustaf Ericsson started as a freshman for North Park. He was (and is) an outstanding talent -- he scored NPU's lone goal in the national championship match -- but he wasn't North Park's best freshman. Peder Olsen, who won the CCIW Newcomer of the Year award, was. Ericsson finished fifth among the Vikings in goals and fourth in points. He came on strong at the end of the year, and made it obvious that he was headed for greatness had he chosen to stay at North Park, but he was by no means even close to being NPU's best player in 2017.

This year Ericsson transferred to a D1 school, the University of San Diego. He started the first four matches of the season for the Toreros (versus Cal-Irvine, UCLA, Duke, and Cal Baptist), and since then has mostly come off of the bench, along with a couple more starts. The Toreros have a 4-6-2 record, so, while they aren't great, they're hardly the dregs of D1, either.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from that.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

rudy

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

I can tell you that West was recruited by Syracuse and offered scholarship and still chose Messiah.  So not always the case that everyone would chose d1.

NEsoccerfan

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

I think many of these kids mature (both physically and talent wise) into D1 talents over the course of their d3 careers. So while they might not have what it takes as freshman, they do as seniors or juniors. In those situations, it's quite a difficult decision to leave your comfort zone  (the school, teachers, classes, friends, teammates, competition level, etc. etc.) to risk transferring to a quality D1 program where there are no guarantees about any of the things I listed parenthetically above.

Taking koh as an example, unless he has aspirations  of playing professionally, what would the incentive be to leave behind everything at UC (on par with any Ivey league school) to go elsewhere for one year?

NEsoccerfan

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 10, 2018, 10:42:58 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 09:11:05 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

I think many of these kids mature (both physically and talent wise) into D1 talents over the course of their d3 careers. So while they might not have what it takes as freshman, they do as seniors or juniors. In those situations, it's quite a difficult decision to leave your comfort zone  (the school, teachers, classes, friends, teammates, competition level, etc. etc.) to risk transferring to a quality D1 program where there are no guarantees about any of the things listed parenthetically above.

Taking koh as an example, unless he has aspirations  of playing professionally, what would his incentive be to leave behind everything at UC (on par with any Ivey league school) to go elsewhere for one year?

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2018, 01:01:53 AM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

Last season, Gustaf Ericsson started as a freshman for North Park. He was (and is) an outstanding talent -- he scored NPU's lone goal in the national championship match -- but he wasn't North Park's best freshman. Peder Olsen, who won the CCIW Newcomer of the Year award, was. Ericsson finished fifth among the Vikings in goals and fourth in points. He came on strong at the end of the year, and made it obvious that he was headed for greatness had he chosen to stay at North Park, but he was by no means even close to being NPU's best player in 2017.

This year Ericsson transferred to a D1 school, the University of San Diego. He started the first four matches of the season for the Toreros (versus Cal-Irvine, UCLA, Duke, and Cal Baptist), and since then has mostly come off of the bench, along with a couple more starts. The Toreros have a 4-6-2 record, so, while they aren't great, they're hardly the dregs of D1, either.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from that.

Maybe I need to check the transfer rules (AGAIN)... but why isn't Ericsson sitting this year?
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

It's plausible, but I was under the impression it was all sports. I need to re-read the damn rulebook for the umpteenth time. SMH
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.