WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by wheatonc, March 03, 2005, 06:18:19 PM

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Dutchfan

I hear a lot of complaining about the refs from IWU fans. As a Hope fan I felt the same way, only going the other way. So that means that in reality the Officials were likely quite fair and called the game evenly.

Roundball999

It's very sad this thread has degraded into an officiating discussion - so predictable in big games that come down to the wire. 

Would much rather talk about a great game between two magnificent teams in an outstanding D3 atmosphere.  How about IWU taking the top team in the country and giving them everything they can handle and more?  And Sosa, she was fabulous, not to mention the other Titans.  Coach Smith seeing that her press was leading to easy Dutch shots and making some great adjustments.  Also give the Dutch credit, no matter what you think about the officiating these girls turned it up a notch at the end - the steals, big shots made, design and execution of that last out of bounds play - they did the things at the end when they absolutely had to.  With both teams returning basically everyone, we may see this again next year.

Also have to note Trine winning easily into the Sweet Sixteen.  I credit those three games vs the Thunder - all came down to the wire - for giving the Dutch the mental toughness to not give up in last night's game.  Honestly I thought they Dutch were done for with 4 minutes left but the girls just turned it up. 

Again I say great, great game between two super teams.  As I said earlier, a shame one had to lose.

Enginerd

#8612
Quote from: Dutchfan on March 08, 2020, 06:16:50 AM
I hear a lot of complaining about the refs from IWU fans. As a Hope fan I felt the same way, only going the other way. So that means that in reality the Officials were likely quite fair and called the game evenly.

You might have felt that way for the first 35 minutes of the game. but I doubt you did over the last 4-5.

I think IWU fans have every right to be upset over 4th quarter officiating because it left a lot to be desired - but that doesn't cheapen Hope's gritty win. Hope caught a few breaks, but still had to take advantage of them. Happens all the time and not every team is able to do so when the opportunity presents itself.

It is true that, regardless of what the officials did or did not do, they didn't cause IWU to miss two huge free throws late, nor did they cause Hope to make HUGE back-to-back 3-pointers exactly when they needed them, to say nothing of the OB play, which was brilliantly executed. The officials did not win the game for Hope. It took some serious gumption to make those two threes when their team needed them, and great teams always find a way to win, period. Lesser teams/players would not have won that game last night.

Having said that, it was pretty obvious that the officiating crew lost their minds in the games final 4-5 minutes.
- The no-calls on contact against Munroe around the 4-minute mark and Brovelli in the last 15 seconds
- The phantom call on Brovelli after the shot-clock issue
- The head-scratching foul call that should have been a held-ball under Hope's basket (even the announcers were trying to locate the contact initially) that sent Voskuil to the line.
- That travelling call on Munroe was ridiculous

If the officials decided that the (extraordinarily) minimal amount of contact on the held-ball / foul call was important enough to the outcome of the game to blow the whistle and put someone on the line to score points, you also need to extend the same protection to offensive players attacking the basket (and drawing contact) on the other end of the floor. The amount of contact on a non-shooting play that drew a whistle on one end of the floor vs. the amount of contact on the other end on shooting plays that didn't get the same whistle, is glaring and, while it might not color how YOU see the officiating, it surely does for me. My opinion.

I don't know if the crew just decided they were going to "let them play" and that's just how things broke, or if classic psychology and 6,000 screaming fans got in their heads - either way circumstances came together to create opportunities late in the game for Hope, and like great teams do, they took advantage of them.

Roundball999

Home court advantage is real, statistics prove it and folks like Massey actually show the data.  Reasons may include travel fatigue by the visitors, familiarity with the gym and the rims, and the atmosphere that may energize the home team, intimidate the visitors and yes even influence refs.  This is understood and it's why people strive for home court.

I think the discussion goes off track when there's an allegation of "homer" treatment; it implies calculated and deliberate favoritism by the refs.   There's no indication of that.  Glancing at box scores, these refs have not officiated any other Hope games this year.

Gregory Sager

The NCAA always makes it a point to ensure that officials that work tournament games come from conferences other than the ones to which the teams that are playing belong.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Enginerd

Quote from: Roundball999 on March 08, 2020, 11:20:24 AM
Home court advantage is real, statistics prove it and folks like Massey actually show the data.  Reasons may include travel fatigue by the visitors, familiarity with the gym and the rims, and the atmosphere that may energize the home team, intimidate the visitors and yes even influence refs.  This is understood and it's why people strive for home court.

I think the discussion goes off track when there's an allegation of "homer" treatment; it implies calculated and deliberate favoritism by the refs.   There's no indication of that.  Glancing at box scores, these refs have not officiated any other Hope games this year.

I'll go back and look at the film again sometime, because it is still available on YouTube, but I recall thinking RHIT got "homered" in the classic sense when they lost to Hope down there in 2017-18. Would be interesting to go back 3 years later, with some perspective, and take another look.

Generally, though, nothing good happens when you watch the home team's AD walk over to the officials on the sideline where they stand during warm-ups, and begin laughing and back-slapping with them like they were at a reunion. LoL.

My thoughts when I used the phrase last night were that Hope's ridiculous home-court advantage, in all it's manifestations, was the difference, and not any willful intent on the part of the officials.

That said, I'd love to see Hope knock off one of the NESCAC teams for the title this year.

Enginerd

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2020, 01:57:04 PM
The NCAA always makes it a point to ensure that officials that work tournament games come from conferences other than the ones to which the teams that are playing belong.

Rose-Hulman had at least one CCIW official when they played Wheaton at WashU in 2017 - or at least he was a CCIW official the following year. Either that or he was a fill-in for a single game the following year.

Flying Dutch Fan

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 02:49:12 PM

Generally, though, nothing good happens when you watch the home team's AD walk over to the officials on the sideline where they stand during warm-ups, and begin laughing and back-slapping with them like they were at a reunion. LoL.


Yes I see the LoL at the end of this quote, but seriously??  The AD of any host school (if they are any good) is going to chat with the officials and make sure they feel comfortable. That's their job, after all.

If you're going to suggest some kind of conspiracy or the like (which you are) then tighten your tinfoil hat and go for it. I'll bet they were discussing what they might do just to piss off a poster on d3hoops. 
2016, 2020, 2022 MIAA Pick 'Em Champion

"Sports are kind of like passion and that's temporary in many cases, but academics - that's like true love and that's enduring." 
John Wooden

"Blame FDF.  That's the default.  Always blame FDF."
goodknight

Enginerd

#8618
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 08, 2020, 03:09:30 PM
Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 02:49:12 PM

Generally, though, nothing good happens when you watch the home team's AD walk over to the officials on the sideline where they stand during warm-ups, and begin laughing and back-slapping with them like they were at a reunion. LoL.


Yes I see the LoL at the end of this quote, but seriously??  The AD of any host school (if they are any good) is going to chat with the officials and make sure they feel comfortable. That's their job, after all.

If you're going to suggest some kind of conspiracy or the like (which you are) then tighten your tinfoil hat and go for it. I'll bet they were discussing what they might do just to piss off a poster on d3hoops.

Please. There isn't a single college or university in America that includes a merriment session for the officials with the host Athletic Director prior to tip-off. You're not suggesting you've seen multiple instances of that at Hope or anywhere else, are you? Does Hope not have a game management staff that sees to visitors' needs?

Nevertheless, in over 50 years of watching college basketball, it remains the lone instance where I can remember the AD interacting with the officials prior to the game. What was she asking? I even asked my nephew's son, who was a Hope student at the time, "who is that lady down on the floor having such a grand time with the officials?" So yeah, when I see something THAT extraordinary, and then witness some similarly extraordinary lapses in officiating....I mean...if the tin-foil hat fits...

I specifically mentioned that I could have been wrong. Three years is a pretty good wait to go back and take a look from a different perspective. It would be interesting, because I certainly remember some things that really stood out in the 2nd half. Sometimes things are not as you remember them. Watching the officiating last night really took me back a few years to the last game I saw in DeVos.

It couldn't possibly have been consciously intentional, but Hope had some help last night, just as I remember them getting in 2016, and like that game 3+ years ago, they took advantage and they made plays and shots when they needed them, and for that they alone are responsible. The officials can't throw the ball in the basket for anyone, after all.

I'm a fan for the remainder of the season. It's about time they win another one. It's been way too long with the talent they've had over the years. Will be like Dean Smith finally getting one in 1982 or his second one in 1993. I really hope they do it.

Gregory Sager

I watched the last thirteen minutes or so of the game as it aired last night. Out of curiosity regarding all of this brouhaha, I watched the game in full today, and played back some of the controversial plays numerous times. My conclusions:

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM
Having said that, it was pretty obvious that the officiating crew lost their minds in the games final 4-5 minutes.
- The no-calls on contact against Munroe around the 4-minute mark

Nope. No contact there. Tolbert took a clean swipe at the ball at the 4:10 mark and just came up empty as Munroe moved away laterally.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMand Brovelli in the last 15 seconds

Voskuil did bring up her arms with the ball at :09 and her left elbow glanced off of the side of Brovelli's head. It wasn't an elbow swing per se, nor did she extend her arms outward -- they strictly went up, not out -- but it was elbow-to-head contact that should've warranted a whistle. Here's the thing, though -- it should've never come to that point to begin with, because the refs made an error in Illinois Wesleyan's favor prior to the elbow-to-head contact. Namely, Brovelli should've been called for a dead-ball holding foul before Tolbert had even inbounded the ball. Brovelli had her left arm completely wrapped around Voskuil as Voskuil started moving; you can even see Brovelli's hand grasping the other side of Voskuil's body.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- The phantom call on Brovelli after the shot-clock issue

That didn't come in the game's final 4-5 minutes. It came with 1:27 to go in the third quarter. Nevertheless, it was a bad call. It was called by the sideline ref (the blonde), who was stationed behind Schoonveld as she drove around Brovelli, and was therefore screened by Schoonveld in terms of seeing any blocking contact by Brovelli. The replay showed that Brovelli didn't make contact at all with Schoonveld.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- The head-scratching foul call that should have been a held-ball under Hope's basket (even the announcers were trying to locate the contact initially) that sent Voskuil to the line.

I replayed this one (it's at :33) five or six times. The whistle (from the male ref on the baseline) came not when Sosa jumped up in the air, but a split second afterward when she got her left (outside) arm on Voskuil's right arm. As the PBP broadcaster said, it was a soft foul. He could've let it go, but there definitely appears to have been contact made by Sosa on Voskuil's right arm - and he was stationed five feet away, diagonally to Sosa and Voskuil, with a clear look inside at their arms. If Sosa had kept her arms inside of Voskuil's (i.e., on the ball), it definitely wouldn't have been called. As officiating goes, it could've gone either way between a call and a no-call, but a foul call was by no means an outrageous decision for that ref to make.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- That travelling call on Munroe was ridiculous

Nope. It was the right call. It's at 4:00 even. She lifted her entire trailing foot -- you can see the full sole of her sneaker -- while pointing her shoe toe (i.e., her pivot point) straight down, which means that it re-positioned just inches in front of where it had been when her foot was down. In that instance, the only way that you can maintain your shoe toe in the same space it had been occupying as the pivot point is if you're subtly moving the front of your foot backwards while the back of your foot lifts up -- and she didn't do that. Munroe was fully aware that she had traveled, as she clapped her hands while grimacing, disgusted with herself.

The traveling call against the Titans that I think the refs blew was the one against Shanks at 2:48. It looked pretty clear to me that Shanks had only taken one step forward when the ball left her hand downward into her initial dribble. The baseline ref (the non-blonde female) was looking right at her. I have no idea why she called it.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMIf the officials decided that the (extraordinarily) minimal amount of contact on the held-ball / foul call was important enough to the outcome of the game to blow the whistle and put someone on the line to score points, you also need to extend the same protection to offensive players attacking the basket (and drawing contact) on the other end of the floor. The amount of contact on a non-shooting play that drew a whistle on one end of the floor vs. the amount of contact on the other end on shooting plays that didn't get the same whistle, is glaring and, while it might not color how YOU see the officiating, it surely does for me. My opinion.

If you're referring to Tolbert's attempt to block from behind what turned out to be Brovelli's airballed layup attempt at :18, it wasn't a foul. There was no contact. You can see Tolbert's arm up in the air on the sideline camera shot, and when it cuts immediately to the baseline camera shot as Brovelli goes up for the layup attempt you can see that Tolbert's arm has dropped straight down, well behind Brovelli.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMI don't know if the crew just decided they were going to "let them play" and that's just how things broke, or if classic psychology and 6,000 screaming fans got in their heads - either way circumstances came together to create opportunities late in the game for Hope, and like great teams do, they took advantage of them.

I think that a whole lot of this -- most of it, in fact -- is a case of people seeing what they want to see.

It's a shame that this is what everybody wants to talk about, because there were some pretty amazing plays down the stretch by both teams. The shot that Sosa makes for IWU's final basket, f'rinstance, at the 1:59 mark. I still can't figure out how she got that off in traffic, much less made it. And that inbounds play by Hope that broke the tie with 33 seconds left, in which Newman broke hard to the basket from up top, drawing the defense over to the right of the lane and clearing space for Schoonveld to double back from the free-throw line, take the inbound pass on the left-hand side of the lane, and make what turned out to be the game-winning layup ... that's every coach's dream, to draw up a play in a timeout in a tournament endgame scenario that not only turns out to be a perfect read on what the defense was going to do, but which your team executes perfectly. Listening to Brian Morehouse's postgame interview comments, it amazes me that Hope never practiced it; he and one of his assistants drew up the play on Friday night in anticipation that they might need it against IWU, and then he diagrammed it to the team in that final timeout and had to cross his fingers that they'd execute it properly. That's classic college basketball, right there.

But, I get it. People have their agendas, whether because of fandom or lingering ire or whatever. As I said, though, it's a shame that this is what everybody wants to talk about, because it really was a great game between a dominant favorite and a very plucky-but-skilled underdog that bossed most of the contest and very nearly came away with the upset.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 06:02:19 PM
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 08, 2020, 03:09:30 PM
Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 02:49:12 PM

Generally, though, nothing good happens when you watch the home team's AD walk over to the officials on the sideline where they stand during warm-ups, and begin laughing and back-slapping with them like they were at a reunion. LoL.


Yes I see the LoL at the end of this quote, but seriously??  The AD of any host school (if they are any good) is going to chat with the officials and make sure they feel comfortable. That's their job, after all.

If you're going to suggest some kind of conspiracy or the like (which you are) then tighten your tinfoil hat and go for it. I'll bet they were discussing what they might do just to piss off a poster on d3hoops.

Please. There isn't a single college or university in America that includes a merriment session for the officials with the host Athletic Director prior to tip-off. You're not suggesting you've seen multiple instances of that at Hope or anywhere else, are you? Does Hope not have a game management staff that sees to visitors' needs?

Oh, come on. This is silly.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 06:02:19 PMNevertheless, in over 50 years of watching college basketball, it remains the lone instance where I can remember the AD interacting with the officials prior to the game. What was she asking? I even asked my nephew's son, who was a Hope student at the time, "who is that lady down on the floor having such a grand time with the officials?"

I see officials talk to athletic directors all the time before games. Why? Because the AD, or whichever assistant AD or coach of another sport that the AD designates if he or she can't be present, is the event manager. While the game manager (usually, but not always, the SID) and table staff are in charge of the particulars of game operation, it's the event manager who is in charge of the overall event. This is common sense; when a school has a large number of visitors from the general public (including potentially hostile parties among them) on campus, someone in at least a mid-level position of authority from the administration needs to be on hand. And for a basketball game, this administration official is naturally the AD. I suspect, in fact, that most schools put this into the job description when they seek to fill an opening for the AD position. His or her responsibilities as event manager typically include matters of security, crowd discipline, emergency medical treatment, etc. Given that this was a tournament game with a very large crowd, I would've been surprised if the AD didn't talk to the officials before the game.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 06:02:19 PMSo yeah, when I see something THAT extraordinary, and then witness some similarly extraordinary lapses in officiating....I mean...if the tin-foil hat fits...

You said it, not me.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Enginerd

#8621
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2020, 07:02:53 PM
I watched the last thirteen minutes or so of the game as it aired last night. Out of curiosity regarding all of this brouhaha, I watched the game in full today, and played back some of the controversial plays numerous times. My conclusions:

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM
Having said that, it was pretty obvious that the officiating crew lost their minds in the games final 4-5 minutes.
- The no-calls on contact against Munroe around the 4-minute mark

Nope. No contact there. Tolbert took a clean swipe at the ball at the 4:10 mark and just came up empty as Munroe moved away laterally.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMand Brovelli in the last 15 seconds

Voskuil did bring up her arms with the ball at :09 and her left elbow glanced off of the side of Brovelli's head. It wasn't an elbow swing per se, nor did she extend her arms outward -- they strictly went up, not out -- but it was elbow-to-head contact that should've warranted a whistle. Here's the thing, though -- it should've never come to that point to begin with, because the refs made an error in Illinois Wesleyan's favor prior to the elbow-to-head contact. Namely, Brovelli should've been called for a dead-ball holding foul before Tolbert had even inbounded the ball. Brovelli had her left arm completely wrapped around Voskuil as Voskuil started moving; you can even see Brovelli's hand grasping the other side of Voskuil's body.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- The phantom call on Brovelli after the shot-clock issue

That didn't come in the game's final 4-5 minutes. It came with 1:27 to go in the third quarter. Nevertheless, it was a bad call. It was called by the sideline ref (the blonde), who was stationed behind Schoonveld as she drove around Brovelli, and was therefore screened by Schoonveld in terms of seeing any blocking contact by Brovelli. The replay showed that Brovelli didn't make contact at all with Schoonveld.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- The head-scratching foul call that should have been a held-ball under Hope's basket (even the announcers were trying to locate the contact initially) that sent Voskuil to the line.

I replayed this one (it's at :33) five or six times. The whistle (from the male ref on the baseline) came not when Sosa jumped up in the air, but a split second afterward when she got her left (outside) arm on Voskuil's right arm. As the PBP broadcaster said, it was a soft foul. He could've let it go, but there definitely appears to have been contact made by Sosa on Voskuil's right arm - and he was stationed five feet away, diagonally to Sosa and Voskuil, with a clear look inside at their arms. If Sosa had kept her arms inside of Voskuil's (i.e., on the ball), it definitely wouldn't have been called. As officiating goes, it could've gone either way between a call and a no-call, but a foul call was by no means an outrageous decision for that ref to make.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- That travelling call on Munroe was ridiculous

Nope. It was the right call. It's at 4:00 even. She lifted her entire trailing foot -- you can see the full sole of her sneaker -- while pointing her shoe toe (i.e., her pivot point) straight down, which means that it re-positioned just inches in front of where it had been when her foot was down. In that instance, the only way that you can maintain your shoe toe in the same space it had been occupying as the pivot point is if you're subtly moving the front of your foot backwards while the back of your foot lifts up -- and she didn't do that. Munroe was fully aware that she had traveled, as she clapped her hands while grimacing, disgusted with herself.

The traveling call against the Titans that I think the refs blew was the one against Shanks at 2:48. It looked pretty clear to me that Shanks had only taken one step forward when the ball left her hand downward into her initial dribble. The baseline ref (the non-blonde female) was looking right at her. I have no idea why she called it.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMIf the officials decided that the (extraordinarily) minimal amount of contact on the held-ball / foul call was important enough to the outcome of the game to blow the whistle and put someone on the line to score points, you also need to extend the same protection to offensive players attacking the basket (and drawing contact) on the other end of the floor. The amount of contact on a non-shooting play that drew a whistle on one end of the floor vs. the amount of contact on the other end on shooting plays that didn't get the same whistle, is glaring and, while it might not color how YOU see the officiating, it surely does for me. My opinion.

If you're referring to Tolbert's attempt to block from behind what turned out to be Brovelli's airballed layup attempt at :18, it wasn't a foul. There was no contact. You can see Tolbert's arm up in the air on the sideline camera shot, and when it cuts immediately to the baseline camera shot as Brovelli goes up for the layup attempt you can see that Tolbert's arm has dropped straight down, well behind Brovelli.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMI don't know if the crew just decided they were going to "let them play" and that's just how things broke, or if classic psychology and 6,000 screaming fans got in their heads - either way circumstances came together to create opportunities late in the game for Hope, and like great teams do, they took advantage of them.

I think that a whole lot of this -- most of it, in fact -- is a case of people seeing what they want to see.

It's a shame that this is what everybody wants to talk about, because there were some pretty amazing plays down the stretch by both teams. The shot that Sosa makes for IWU's final basket, f'rinstance, at the 1:59 mark. I still can't figure out how she got that off in traffic, much less made it. And that inbounds play by Hope that broke the tie with 33 seconds left, in which Newman broke hard to the basket from up top, drawing the defense over to the right of the lane and clearing space for Schoonveld to double back from the free-throw line, take the inbound pass on the left-hand side of the lane, and make what turned out to be the game-winning layup ... that's every coach's dream, to draw up a play in a timeout in a tournament endgame scenario that not only turns out to be a perfect read on what the defense was going to do, but which your team executes perfectly. Listening to Brian Morehouse's postgame interview comments, it amazes me that Hope never practiced it; he and one of his assistants drew up the play on Friday night in anticipation that they might need it against IWU, and then he diagrammed it to the team in that final timeout and had to cross his fingers that they'd execute it properly. That's classic college basketball, right there.

But, I get it. People have their agendas, whether because of fandom or lingering ire or whatever. As I said, though, it's a shame that this is what everybody wants to talk about, because it really was a great game between a dominant favorite and a very plucky-but-skilled underdog that bossed most of the contest and very nearly came away with the upset.


OK - so I got my counter-times and IWU players mixed-up a couple times here. I don't think you can refute any of the following:

- The horrible travel-call I was referring to WAS the call on Shanks at 2;48. Absolutely horrible call to make at that point in the game, with both teams playing their guts out. An obvious travel is pretty easy to see/call, and this one is very perplexing. The official HAD to have been anticipating blowing his whistle - there's just no other explanation. The non-blonde female official  is literally right on top of it and she wasn't going to call anything. If you watch the guy (the male official) he is actually walking AWAY from the ball and has his head craned to the left before Shanks ever puts the ball on the floor. He was walking the other way - handing her off to the baseline official.

- Making the above call look even more incompetent, two FAR worse calls, or I suppose I should say no-calls, highlight the disparity between how the teams were treated by the officials at times last night, unintended or not. While you've got YouTube up in your browser, roll it back to the unthinkable no-call at the 25-second mark of the 3rd quarter - where the Hope player caught the ball around the foul line, then shuffled her feet twice and took a giant step and a half - without dribbling the ball? It was beyond incompetent that none of the three officials saw it. She just passed the ball to Voskuil, who spun in the lane, scored, and drew the foul and a three-point play. Barely more than a minute of game-clock later, at 9:30 in the 4th quarter. you'll see Thomas attack down the right lane-line and score. Problem is, literally BOTH her feet leave the ground as she hops briefly in the air to put the ball on the floor and head to the basket. It's as blatant a travel as you'll ever see, except the three people with the whistles didn't.

When you won 't call either of those two BLATANT travels, irrefutably costing IWU five points, then decide Shanks DID travel at 2:48 when she clearly didn't, and Hope immediately knocks down a momentum-grabbing 3-pointer, I think it's ok to question the officials' competence - and I don't understand why you or anyone else wouldn't? Being lousy officials not up to the task and susceptible of being influenced by the crowd doesn't mean they were TRYING to help Hope - it just means they shouldn't be officiating NCAA Tournament games.

...and those aren't even the WORST examples of how IWU was treated by the officials last night.

- Immediately after the 2nd Thomas travel that wasn't called, Sosa back-cut her defender and Shanks passed the ball to her in full-stride, and Voskuil came across the lane AND FOULED HER. She blocked the shot clean but got her with the body pretty darn good - spun her around. You can see Sosa's incredulous reaction. She couldn't believe a foul was not called. This no-call makes the foul-call on the 50/50 / held-ball under Hope's basket even more suspect. Why call the 50/50 "soft" foul when you're letting Hope get away with murder on the Sosa shot in the lane? Pretty stark examples of one call that could have gone either way and another that was probably the most obvious foul of the whole game - both going against IWU.

Later on, Bowen from IWU was whistled for her fifth foul at 4:12 for reaching on Voskuil's up-and-under move. Problem is, Bowen didn't foul her, if you slow it down and play around with the pause button, you can see it plain as day. Her hand was ON TOP OF the ball, and she never even touched Voskuil.

Now - the IWU kid reached, and you can often expect to have a foul called when you reach-in like that, even if there's no contact -  but if you're going to let an obvious, blatant foul go, like the one on Sosa at 9:15, you can't expect a casual observer not to raise an eyebrow on Bowen's fifth foul, just because she reached. You cannot pretend to have some nuance in your officiating on one end and not the other.

BTW - I stand corrected on IWU's last shot, there's no way to tell if there was any contact, judging by Brovelli's lack of reaction Id say there probably was no foul - but Tolbert REACHED and her hand in there forced Brovelli to change her shot, just like Bowen did earlier. I wonder if the shot had been on the other end of the floor and the roles reversed, if we'd have seen the same no-call.

The others above are but a handful of examples of pretty inconsistent, incompetent officiating. It's there for you to see with your own eyes.

Enginerd

#8622
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2020, 07:02:53 PM
I watched the last thirteen minutes or so of the game as it aired last night. Out of curiosity regarding all of this brouhaha, I watched the game in full today, and played back some of the controversial plays numerous times. My conclusions:

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM
Having said that, it was pretty obvious that the officiating crew lost their minds in the games final 4-5 minutes.
- The no-calls on contact against Munroe around the 4-minute mark

Nope. No contact there. Tolbert took a clean swipe at the ball at the 4:10 mark and just came up empty as Munroe moved away laterally.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMand Brovelli in the last 15 seconds

Voskuil did bring up her arms with the ball at :09 and her left elbow glanced off of the side of Brovelli's head. It wasn't an elbow swing per se, nor did she extend her arms outward -- they strictly went up, not out -- but it was elbow-to-head contact that should've warranted a whistle. Here's the thing, though -- it should've never come to that point to begin with, because the refs made an error in Illinois Wesleyan's favor prior to the elbow-to-head contact. Namely, Brovelli should've been called for a dead-ball holding foul before Tolbert had even inbounded the ball. Brovelli had her left arm completely wrapped around Voskuil as Voskuil started moving; you can even see Brovelli's hand grasping the other side of Voskuil's body.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- The phantom call on Brovelli after the shot-clock issue

That didn't come in the game's final 4-5 minutes. It came with 1:27 to go in the third quarter. Nevertheless, it was a bad call. It was called by the sideline ref (the blonde), who was stationed behind Schoonveld as she drove around Brovelli, and was therefore screened by Schoonveld in terms of seeing any blocking contact by Brovelli. The replay showed that Brovelli didn't make contact at all with Schoonveld.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- The head-scratching foul call that should have been a held-ball under Hope's basket (even the announcers were trying to locate the contact initially) that sent Voskuil to the line.

I replayed this one (it's at :33) five or six times. The whistle (from the male ref on the baseline) came not when Sosa jumped up in the air, but a split second afterward when she got her left (outside) arm on Voskuil's right arm. As the PBP broadcaster said, it was a soft foul. He could've let it go, but there definitely appears to have been contact made by Sosa on Voskuil's right arm - and he was stationed five feet away, diagonally to Sosa and Voskuil, with a clear look inside at their arms. If Sosa had kept her arms inside of Voskuil's (i.e., on the ball), it definitely wouldn't have been called. As officiating goes, it could've gone either way between a call and a no-call, but a foul call was by no means an outrageous decision for that ref to make.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AM- That travelling call on Munroe was ridiculous

Nope. It was the right call. It's at 4:00 even. She lifted her entire trailing foot -- you can see the full sole of her sneaker -- while pointing her shoe toe (i.e., her pivot point) straight down, which means that it re-positioned just inches in front of where it had been when her foot was down. In that instance, the only way that you can maintain your shoe toe in the same space it had been occupying as the pivot point is if you're subtly moving the front of your foot backwards while the back of your foot lifts up -- and she didn't do that. Munroe was fully aware that she had traveled, as she clapped her hands while grimacing, disgusted with herself.

The traveling call against the Titans that I think the refs blew was the one against Shanks at 2:48. It looked pretty clear to me that Shanks had only taken one step forward when the ball left her hand downward into her initial dribble. The baseline ref (the non-blonde female) was looking right at her. I have no idea why she called it.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMIf the officials decided that the (extraordinarily) minimal amount of contact on the held-ball / foul call was important enough to the outcome of the game to blow the whistle and put someone on the line to score points, you also need to extend the same protection to offensive players attacking the basket (and drawing contact) on the other end of the floor. The amount of contact on a non-shooting play that drew a whistle on one end of the floor vs. the amount of contact on the other end on shooting plays that didn't get the same whistle, is glaring and, while it might not color how YOU see the officiating, it surely does for me. My opinion.

If you're referring to Tolbert's attempt to block from behind what turned out to be Brovelli's airballed layup attempt at :18, it wasn't a foul. There was no contact. You can see Tolbert's arm up in the air on the sideline camera shot, and when it cuts immediately to the baseline camera shot as Brovelli goes up for the layup attempt you can see that Tolbert's arm has dropped straight down, well behind Brovelli.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:51:51 AMI don't know if the crew just decided they were going to "let them play" and that's just how things broke, or if classic psychology and 6,000 screaming fans got in their heads - either way circumstances came together to create opportunities late in the game for Hope, and like great teams do, they took advantage of them.

I think that a whole lot of this -- most of it, in fact -- is a case of people seeing what they want to see.

It's a shame that this is what everybody wants to talk about, because there were some pretty amazing plays down the stretch by both teams. The shot that Sosa makes for IWU's final basket, f'rinstance, at the 1:59 mark. I still can't figure out how she got that off in traffic, much less made it. And that inbounds play by Hope that broke the tie with 33 seconds left, in which Newman broke hard to the basket from up top, drawing the defense over to the right of the lane and clearing space for Schoonveld to double back from the free-throw line, take the inbound pass on the left-hand side of the lane, and make what turned out to be the game-winning layup ... that's every coach's dream, to draw up a play in a timeout in a tournament endgame scenario that not only turns out to be a perfect read on what the defense was going to do, but which your team executes perfectly. Listening to Brian Morehouse's postgame interview comments, it amazes me that Hope never practiced it; he and one of his assistants drew up the play on Friday night in anticipation that they might need it against IWU, and then he diagrammed it to the team in that final timeout and had to cross his fingers that they'd execute it properly. That's classic college basketball, right there.

But, I get it. People have their agendas, whether because of fandom or lingering ire or whatever. As I said, though, it's a shame that this is what everybody wants to talk about, because it really was a great game between a dominant favorite and a very plucky-but-skilled underdog that bossed most of the contest and very nearly came away with the upset.


Hope is pretty well-staffed, I doubt their AD was showing anyone where their locker room was that day - but she sure did walk out on the floor and spend 10 minutes with the officials...on the court. Talking. Laughing. It was obvious they knew one another pretty well. I'm sure there was nothing to it - but it looked weird. Weird enough to make mention of it with an "LoL".

I went back and watched that game this afternoon (the advantages of being retired) and honestly, the officiating wasn't too bad at all...until the 4th quarter. The whistles stopped in the last few minutes of the game, at least on one end - just like last night. Go look at the no-call at 2:10 in the 4th quarter and tell me the RHIT kid wasn't fouled. Wasn't knocked to the floor. Wasn't allowed room to land by the defender.

Use your pause button and you'll see that the foul called on RHIT at the basket at 1:14 was unbelievably bad. The kid's hand is literally 5 feet from the Hope player's arm, and the official that blew his whistle was out on the perimeter and couldn't possibly have seen what he called. There's also a HIGHLY questionable travel call that I'm not even including - along with a Hope player reaching clear-across a RHIT player's body to poke the ball away on RHIT's last possession - the kind of reaching and lazy defense that officials usually punish with a foul call - they certainly did it to Bowen from IWU last night.

My point is, I've now seen two games at DeVos. In both instances underdogs had Hope on the ropes (much more so last night) and came up empty-handed. There was questionable officiating in both games that benefited Hope, and I feel like the atmosphere intimidates officials. Call it home-court advantage or whatever you like, but it's really a thing in that building. In both cases, Hope made shots and plays when they needed to and prevailed, like great teams do.

Gregory Sager

#8623
Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:00:58 PM
OK - so I got my counter-times and IWU players mixed-up a couple times here. I don't think you can refute any of the following:

- The horrible travel-call I was referring to WAS the call on Shanks at 2;48.

Why would I refute it? I'm the one who identified it!

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:00:58 PM
Absolutely horrible call to make at that point in the game, with both teams playing their guts out. An obvious travel is pretty easy to see/call, and this one is very perplexing. The official HAD to have been anticipating blowing his whistle

Her whistle.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:00:58 PM- there's just no other explanation. The non-blonde female official  is literally right on top of it and she wasn't going to call anything. If you watch the guy (the male official) he is actually walking AWAY from the ball and has his head craned to the left before Shanks ever puts the ball on the floor. He was walking the other way - handing her off to the baseline official.

She's the one who blew the whistle, not her male associate on the sideline. You can tell by the loudness of the whistle, and by the direction of the sound, that it was picked up by the baseline camera.

Nevertheless, I have absolutely no idea why you're belaboring this point about the Shanks travel call. As I said, I'm the one who identified it as a bad call.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:00:58 PM- Making the above call look even more incompetent, two FAR worse calls, or I suppose I should say no-calls, highlight the disparity between how the teams were treated by the officials at times last night, unintended or not. While you've got YouTube up in your browser, roll it back to the unthinkable no-call at the 25-second mark of the 3rd quarter - where the Hope player caught the ball around the foul line, then shuffled her feet twice and took a giant step and a half - without dribbling the ball? It was beyond incompetent that none of the three officials saw it. She just passed the ball to Voskuil, who spun in the lane, scored, and drew the foul and a three-point play. Barely more than a minute of game-clock later, at 9:30 in the 4th quarter. you'll see Thomas attack down the right lane-line and score. Problem is, literally BOTH her feet leave the ground as she hops briefly in the air to put the ball on the floor and head to the basket. It's as blatant a travel as you'll ever see, except the three people with the whistles didn't.

Oh, good grief. Originally it was only the last four or five minutes of the game in which the officials "lost their minds." Now you're going to fine-tooth-comb the entire forty minutes in search of evidence to back your conspiracy-theory agenda? Do you realize how obsessed and ridiculous that appears?

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:00:58 PMWhen you won 't call either of those two BLATANT travels, irrefutably costing IWU five points, then decide Shanks DID travel at 2:48 when she clearly didn't, and Hope immediately knocks down a momentum-grabbing 3-pointer, I think it's ok to question the officials' competence - and I don't understand why you or anyone else wouldn't? Being lousy officials not up to the task and susceptible of being influenced by the crowd doesn't mean they were TRYING to help Hope - it just means they shouldn't be officiating NCAA Tournament games.

This is absurd. The officials made some mistakes, as officials have done in every single refereed basketball game that has ever been played. I've pointed out three of them myself -- the travel call against Shanks at 2:48 of the fourth quarter that really wasn't a travel, the blocking foul against Brovelli at 1:27 of the third quarter that really wasn't a foul, and the holding foul that should've been called against Brovelli but wasn't on the final inbounds play of the game at :09 -- and if I was as obsessed with this whole thing as you are I could spend a day going over the game again and again and find more. But it proves nothing. It doesn't prove that they were "lousy officials," it doesn't prove that they were "susceptible of being influenced by the crowd [sic]" ... and it doesn't mean that Hope is the big bad bogeyman, either.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 11:27:51 PM
I went back and watched that game this afternoon (the advantages of being retired) and honestly, the officiating wasn't too bad at all...until the 4th quarter. The whistles stopped in the last few minutes of the game, at least on one end - just like last night. Go look at the no-call at 2:10 in the 4th quarter and tell me the RHIT kid wasn't fouled. Wasn't knocked to the floor. Wasn't allowed room to land by the defender.

Use your pause button and you'll see that the foul called on RHIT at the basket at 1:14 was unbelievably bad. The kid's hand is literally 5 feet from the Hope player's arm, and the official that blew his whistle was out on the perimeter and couldn't possibly have seen what he called. There's also a HIGHLY questionable travel call that I'm not even including - along with a Hope player reaching clear-across a RHIT player's body to poke the ball away on RHIT's last possession - the kind of reaching and lazy defense that officials usually punish with a foul call - they certainly did it to Bowen from IWU last night.

"RHIT"?  :D

Man, your repeated mistake just gave away the store. This has nothing at all to do with sticking up for IWU. This is all about Rose-Hulman's self-anointed Don Quixote tilting at the Dutch windmill.

Quote from: Enginerd on March 08, 2020, 10:00:58 PM...and those aren't even the WORST examples of how IWU was treated by the officials last night.

[snip]

The others above are but a handful of examples of pretty inconsistent, incompetent officiating. It's there for you to see with your own eyes.

Sorry, but I've got better things to do with my day than to spend hours sifting through the entire game. Since FDF is convinced that Hope got jobbed by the refs early in the game, and since he's the one who actually cares about defending the integrity of Hope women's basketball, I'll let him take on that task if he so desires.

But, really, what I see with my own eyes is someone who has a deep-seated anti-Hope agenda (and who is trying to gaslight us about it with this "I'm a fan for the remainder of the season" nonsense) who is letting himself get a little too paranoid about Saturday's game ... right down to launching a fishing expedition regarding the Hope AD talking to the officials before the game.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Roundball999

Mr. Sager: since I am a Hope fan, I'll say I appreciate your clear headed and objective analysis.  I know you are a long time contributor to these boards, an experienced scorekeeper and a big CCIW fan.  That says to me you are more likely than almost anyone else to have both an unbiased and expert view of this game.

As you said, anyone can parse any game and find myriad missed and bad calls in both directions.  That's a rathole down which I will not go, though your analysis has already shown that several of these missed and blown calls are only in the minds of the opposition fans and their memory somehow doesn't include missed and blown calls in the other direction.

But I do have an objection when clearly biased fans, on the basis of a game or two, besmirches the accomplishments of a group of young ladies and an entire program that has always done things the right way.  It's undeserved and harmful (to wit IWU, after reading these comments: "Your floor has a "homer" reputation, I guess for good reason").  In all my years on these boards this is the first time anyone has ever said such things about this program so I will simply attribute it to sour grapes.

Good luck to the Hope women going forward and congratulations to the IWU team and Coach Smith for yet another stellar season.  It's unfortunate THAT can't be the focus.