NESCAC

Started by LaPaz, September 11, 2011, 05:54:52 PM

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CAC2424

Hold on one second...

How about who teams play IN their conference? Arcadia, Lycoming and Widener aren't exactly Williams, Amherst and Middlebury. 

The top NESCAC teams can lose on any given day to the bottom NESCAC team.  This isn't true for any of the conferences listed above.

Of course teams should schedule harder out of conference if they aren't challenged every Sunday.  York had 6 cupcakes on their schedule last year...Messiah more than that...RCU played two schools named Cairn and Eastern Mennonaite, neither of which I've ever heard of.  Nothing wrong with any of this but it's not all about non-conferene or conference but rather the whole schedule as a whole. 

 


D3soccerwatcher

How can you possibly take this position when last year's D3 NCAA National Champion got an at-large tournament bid because they didn't even win their conference.  That's proof that you are kidding yourself if you think NESCAC is the only conference where any team in the conference can beat the other.

D3soccerwatcher

If by "cupcake" games you mean games won by 4 or more goals - Messiah had 7 of them.  One of them against the NESCAC team they faced.  So what's you point?

Ryan Harmanis

My two cents - coming from an OWU alum so I'll try to tone down any bias:

The NESCAC setup cuts both ways, and it's probably why they rarely play big non-conference opponents.  The risk of hurting the NCAA profile isn't worth the reward.  Then again, four NESCAC teams get bids most years, so in many ways it's a positive.  You're never going to see something like DePauw last year happen to a NESCAC team.  Heck, Williams was 11-6 with zero wins/draws against tournament teams and got in.

It really depends on how you view conference strength.  Yes, Middlebury and OWU are the only non-Messiah winners in the last 10 years, but how much weight do you put on that?  The NCAC has only been strong 2-3 times in the past decade, and even though Messiah always wins their conference hasn't had another national threat in ages. 

I get the depth argument, but it's hard to compare teams 5-10 from conferences with no crossover.  From what I've seen on here and heard around the landscape, the real issue is this: it's a common refrain from NESCAC supporters that they send teams - multiple teams, not just a single program (Calvin, Loras, OWU, Trinity) to the Final Four regularly.  The complaint many others have - true or not - is that the "NESCAC" section of the NCAA bracket has often been weaker than the others. 

Taking last year as an example, the distribution of the top 4 NCAA-ranked teams from each region and the D3soccer.com Top 25: 

Williams' Section
Regional Rankings (5): #1-4 from New England, one other #2.
D3soccer.com (3): #5, #15, #20.

Camden
Regional Rankings (8): two #1s, two #2s, two #3s, two #4s.
D3soccer.com (6): #2, #4, #7, #10, #11, #13.

Messiah
Regional Rankings (8): three #1s, one #2, two #3s, two #4s.
D3soccer.com (7): #1, #3, #9, #12, #14, #19, #22.

Loras
Regional Rankings (6): two #1s, two #2s, one #3, one #4.
D3soccer.com (6): #6, #8, #16, #23, #24, #25.

Every other section had at least two regional #1s and twice as many top-25 teams.  Take that for what it's worth, but it's the most objective we can get at the D3 level.

Personally, I think the big difference comes from playing mostly other New England teams and avoiding heavy hitters from other regions in the tournament.  The NESCAC schools rarely have to worry about seeing any of the perennial top teams from other regions before the Final Four.  I come down somewhere in between.  I think the NESCAC gets in extra teams regularly almost solely on conference reputation, and I think they've had some easier NCAA draws. 

Then again, I know firsthand an "easy" draw doesn't get you to the Final Four, so perhaps the NESCAC deserves a little more credit.  One thing I would suggest is that the general NESCAC style of play - big, physical, relatively direct - is often more effective in the NCAA tournament.  The weather plays a role, teams are tight defensively, and it turns every game into a style most NESCAC teams are prepared to play.  Williams, which (from the games I've watched) does not play that style, is well-suited to get by the New England teams because they spend all season playing their style against Amherst's. 

As for getting thumped by Messiah, it happens.  The biggest issue for Williams is they play an open style, and if you go back-and-forth like that with a more talented team it rarely ends well.  There's a reason Messiah struggled most with Kenyon last year; they're big and physical and they took Messiah out of their game.  Williams played on Messiah's terms, hence the result.  The exact same thing happened to Ohio Northern in the 2012 final - they played a really attacking 4-3-3 and Messiah leveled them. 

D3soccerwatcher

Harmanis, where have you been?  Yours is some of the best commentary I've seen on this thread. Non-emotional and fact based. Love it. Agree 100% when you try to beat Messiah at their own game you probably are not going to like the result as Williams found out. You are very correct about Kenyon. I watched them beat Wheaton online and then traveled to Messiah to see them play live there. Kenyon played big and physical and that matched up well against the pure game that Messiah always plays. Same held true for Rutgers-Camden. They brought that rough and tumble Jersey soccer to the final and took Messiah into double OT.

CAC2424

Last year 9th place NESCAC team spent time in the D3Soccer Top 25. 

In total, 8 NESCAC teams were ranked or "received votes" (the 7th place NESCAC team was "receiving votes" as late as mid October) at some point in 2013.

The Connecticut College Camels came in 7th in the NESCAC last year...if there was a tournament for 7th place in every conference they's have dominated like Germany.

Just for the record-Williams and Amherst aren't my "cup of tea" so none of my commentary above is meant to stick up for either of them.  And for the record I have no idea why anyone says Williams plays this open style of soccer.  It's a running joke in our locker room that people on these boards say that-might have been like that in the 90's but not recently and definitely not in the past four years.

D3soccerwatcher

Teams come and go out of the Top 25 throughout the season. What matters is where are they at the end. I'm betting that there will be an NJAC team and MAC team in the Final 4.  If an NESCAC team makes it that far this year, let's hope they fair better then they did last year when they finally have to face one of the big boys...because I like to watch good competitive D3 soccer just as much as anyone.  The top team or two in NESCAC certainly has the capability to compete at that level if they have the right game plan.  Time will tell.  Looking forward to watching great D3 soccer starting in just a few weeks.

FourMoreYears

Quote from: CAC2424 on August 15, 2014, 08:16:34 AM
The Connecticut College Camels came in 7th in the NESCAC last year...if there was a tournament for 7th place in every conference they's have dominated like Germany.

There are times I read something and think: "I wish I had written that!  Or even THOUGHT of that!" 
I'm not an expert by any means, but that sums it up for me.

Given geographical limitations and the reluctance of the NESCAC to expand the number of games played, this subject will continue to be a lively debate topic.  All in good fun, and all very enjoyable.

All NESCAC

Quote from: FourMoreYears on August 15, 2014, 09:09:52 AM
Quote from: CAC2424 on August 15, 2014, 08:16:34 AM
The Connecticut College Camels came in 7th in the NESCAC last year...if there was a tournament for 7th place in every conference they's have dominated like Germany.

There are times I read something and think: "I wish I had written that!  Or even THOUGHT of that!" 
I'm not an expert by any means, but that sums it up for me.

Given geographical limitations and the reluctance of the NESCAC to expand the number of games played, this subject will continue to be a lively debate topic.  All in good fun, and all very enjoyable.

Good "outside of the box" comment regarding Conn College last year---they tied Amherst and lost extremely close one to Williams as the #7 conference team.  Earlier poster RH makes a very good point regarding the NESCAC out of conference schedule.  Given only a 14/15 game regular season schedule and the weekly conference games which could go either way (see team #7 above vs the annual top 2)  NESCAC teams are not going to travel far or schedule another top #20 team unless they are in New England.   Loading up their 5 non-conference games with other top 20 non-New England teams just isn't going to happen as it could possibly severely hamper all the NESCAC teams from a possible NCAA bid.  If that schedule  were expanded to 18 or 20 regular season games, then such travel and games would likely occur as another loss or two could be OK, but expansion beyond 15 regular season games in  the NESCAC is not going to happen any time soon.  Good discussion.  Season is right around the corner.

lastguyoffthebench

#729
Quote from: CAC2424 on August 14, 2014, 10:07:09 PM
Hold on one second...

How about who teams play IN their conference? Arcadia, Lycoming and Widener aren't exactly Williams, Amherst and Middlebury. 

The top NESCAC teams can lose on any given day to the bottom NESCAC team.  This isn't true for any of the conferences listed above.

Of course teams should schedule harder out of conference if they aren't challenged every Sunday.  York had 6 cupcakes on their schedule last year...Messiah more than that...RCU played two schools named Cairn and Eastern Mennonaite, neither of which I've ever heard of.  Nothing wrong with any of this but it's not all about non-conferene or conference but rather the whole schedule as a whole. 



Amherst played NEC, Husson, and Curry so lets not talk about cupcakes here.   It's hard to gauge how good the NESCAC is because the out-of-conference games are typically against in-region teams from the weak New England region.   Atleast Williams played two decent out of region teams in that of RPI and Skidmore this year. 


Not sure how the scheduling works, but when you have to put 8-10 non conference games on the slate, you may run into mid-tier teams that don't want to play you (hence EMU and Cairn {formerly Philly Bible}).   Playing such teams will lower the OWP and in-turn, the SOS.   NESCAC truly has the advantage of only having to schedule 4 out-of-conference games (in a region that has 76 teams), regardless of how strong the conference just may be.    When you say 9th place Trinity had a positive result against a top team in the NESCAC, the NJAC is just the same:

Last place Kean beat sweet 16 Kenyon.
8th place Ramapo lost to RPI 2-1 (3rd place Williams also lost to RPI 3-2)
7th place Rowan lost to Brandeis 2-1  (Brandeis lost to Williams 2-0)
Middle of the pack TCNJ beat MSU, tied Camden, and also Stevens Tech.
3rd place Newark had a 10 minute meltdown vs Roger Williams in the tourney.

Go back to 2011 when Camden was predicted to finish 7th in the NJAC; Beat #1 Wesleyan, and then beat a Babson team that had a 20 game unbeaten streak before falling to a good side in that of Oneonta St in the Elite 8.


D3soccerwatcher

Why does NESCAC play so few games?  I understand that fewer games means, fresher, more rested, less injured team when going into the playoffs.  Other than that what is the advantage of fewer games?  Is it a financial thing?

lastguyoffthebench

York may have had cupcakes, but they still scheduled and beat Messiah during the season.   Also played Salisbury and CNU twice.  Came back and beat a very good side in that of Stevens Tech in the tourney...  If you watched the live feed, York totally dominated the 2nd half at Stevens.

York played a great game at Camden (a team who rarely loses at home).  Camden hit two bombs in the first half and a fluke goal early in 2nd half to put the game out of reach.   First goal was about 35 yds out lower side panel.  Second goal was one of the best I've seen all year when Auleta hit a half volley rip from just outside the box.

D3soccerwatcher

Agree York's overall schedule is legit.

lastguyoffthebench

#733
Camden has arguably the hardest in the nation, that is line with Loras this year:

#nocupcakes.   Here's to hoping they both make it to the final 4 again, as they will certainly be battle tested.

CAMDEN
F&M             17-4-2   
VWU            16-5-1 
Cabrini        10-7-4
Drew          11-4-5
Susqu         13-6-1 
Eastern      14-4-1
Lynchburg  11-6-2
CNU            13-5-2
Haverford   11-5-2
Swat           12-5-2 
                 128-51 -22     69.2%
----------------------------------------

LORAS

UW-W           14-6-1
Williamette   10-6-3
Carroll          13-4-2
Carleton       15-3-3
UST               10-4-4
St. Olaf          14-4-1
St. John           9-7-3
UofChicago      9-6-2
UWO             15-2-4
UWP               7-9-3
                  116-51-26     66.8%

FourMoreYears

Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on August 15, 2014, 10:02:12 AM
Why does NESCAC play so few games?  I understand that fewer games means, fresher, more rested, less injured team when going into the playoffs.  Other than that what is the advantage of fewer games?  Is it a financial thing?

Trust me, it's not a strategy to do better in the playoffs.

In my opinion, it's an institutional bias against athletics by the part of the NESCAC college Presidents, who worry that they won't been seen as strong academic schools should athletics do too well.  They want to be seen as the "Little Ivys".  For example, the NESCAC football teams only play 8 games (which is crazy because that means they don't even play every team every year which they could by adding a 9th game!) and are not allowed to compete in the D3 playoffs.  That's changing slowly, but it is most definitely about managing the perceived "brand" and nothing to do with trying to gain a competitive advantage. 

Oh, and I think the NESCAC Presidents are wrong.  They could have their cake and eat it too.  They just prefer to nibble on the hummus and roasted veggie plate.