Author Topic: Future of Division III  (Read 562425 times)

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2430 on: March 15, 2018, 11:13:38 pm »

Offline WUPHF

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2431 on: March 19, 2018, 11:52:24 am »
An interesting article on the state of public regional colleges including examples that field Division III athletics.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Public-Regional-Colleges-Never/239939?cid=wcontentgrid_hp_1b

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2432 on: March 19, 2018, 11:54:32 am »
An interesting article on the state of public regional colleges including examples that field Division III athletics.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Public-Regional-Colleges-Never/239939?cid=wcontentgrid_hp_1b

Behind the paywall...

Offline Just Bill

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Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2434 on: April 24, 2018, 11:39:13 am »
D3 considering mandatory graduation rate reporting:   http://www.ncaa.org/champion/diii-looks-requiring-schools-submit-student-athlete-grad-rates?sf187584447=1

Quote
Retention rates of football players and African-American student-athletes in Division III have lagged behind those of their counterparts for eight consecutive years, according to the division’s voluntarily reported student-athlete graduation rate data. The trend suggests the division should take steps — such as offering best practices or crafting legislation — to help those groups.

But a key question hangs over any decision: Is that data comprehensive enough to inform policy decisions and best practices? Only about 40 percent of the membership submits student-athlete graduation metrics on an annual basis. To ensure it has a comprehensive understanding, the Division III Diversity and Inclusion Working Group has proposed the division adopt mandatory student-athlete graduation rate reporting for all schools — the type of  reporting already required in Divisions I and II.

Offline doolittledog

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2435 on: April 24, 2018, 02:07:20 pm »
D3 considering mandatory graduation rate reporting:   http://www.ncaa.org/champion/diii-looks-requiring-schools-submit-student-athlete-grad-rates?sf187584447=1

Quote
Retention rates of football players and African-American student-athletes in Division III have lagged behind those of their counterparts for eight consecutive years, according to the division’s voluntarily reported student-athlete graduation rate data. The trend suggests the division should take steps — such as offering best practices or crafting legislation — to help those groups.

But a key question hangs over any decision: Is that data comprehensive enough to inform policy decisions and best practices? Only about 40 percent of the membership submits student-athlete graduation metrics on an annual basis. To ensure it has a comprehensive understanding, the Division III Diversity and Inclusion Working Group has proposed the division adopt mandatory student-athlete graduation rate reporting for all schools — the type of  reporting already required in Divisions I and II.

A problem with athlete graduation rates at D3 is many D3 schools bring in large recruiting classes.  Once many of these kids realize they aren't destined to be a star they quit.  Many of those kids then transfer to different schools.  I know in the IIAC many of the schools talk about bringing in a freshman class of 50-60 football players and if everything goes well you'll have 20 that are still playing by their senior year.  Of those 30-40 kids that no longer play I would bet at least half have transferred out to another school. 
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Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2436 on: April 24, 2018, 02:38:50 pm »
D3 considering mandatory graduation rate reporting:   http://www.ncaa.org/champion/diii-looks-requiring-schools-submit-student-athlete-grad-rates?sf187584447=1

Quote
Retention rates of football players and African-American student-athletes in Division III have lagged behind those of their counterparts for eight consecutive years, according to the division’s voluntarily reported student-athlete graduation rate data. The trend suggests the division should take steps — such as offering best practices or crafting legislation — to help those groups.

But a key question hangs over any decision: Is that data comprehensive enough to inform policy decisions and best practices? Only about 40 percent of the membership submits student-athlete graduation metrics on an annual basis. To ensure it has a comprehensive understanding, the Division III Diversity and Inclusion Working Group has proposed the division adopt mandatory student-athlete graduation rate reporting for all schools — the type of  reporting already required in Divisions I and II.

A problem with athlete graduation rates at D3 is many D3 schools bring in large recruiting classes.  Once many of these kids realize they aren't destined to be a star they quit.  Many of those kids then transfer to different schools.  I know in the IIAC many of the schools talk about bringing in a freshman class of 50-60 football players and if everything goes well you'll have 20 that are still playing by their senior year.  Of those 30-40 kids that no longer play I would bet at least half have transferred out to another school.
I believe that this is a misdirected effort. It is just as important to help the young student-athlete understand the gifts, talents, and desires that they have at 18 or 19 years of age.  When they finally realize that they are not going to be a starter on the athletic team, and the camaraderie of the team for the "hangers-on" is not worth the financial outlay, then it is time to move on.

Why is something as specific as a "Football Player" so critical?  Do we ask the same of any student who tries out for the lead role in the Fall Drama production, doesn't get the role, and then leaves school? If the kid does not want to remain in school to be a "stage hand" for 4 years, does that number show up as "retention failure" for the School of Fine Arts?

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2437 on: April 24, 2018, 02:41:46 pm »
D3 considering mandatory graduation rate reporting:   http://www.ncaa.org/champion/diii-looks-requiring-schools-submit-student-athlete-grad-rates?sf187584447=1

Quote
Retention rates of football players and African-American student-athletes in Division III have lagged behind those of their counterparts for eight consecutive years, according to the division’s voluntarily reported student-athlete graduation rate data. The trend suggests the division should take steps — such as offering best practices or crafting legislation — to help those groups.

But a key question hangs over any decision: Is that data comprehensive enough to inform policy decisions and best practices? Only about 40 percent of the membership submits student-athlete graduation metrics on an annual basis. To ensure it has a comprehensive understanding, the Division III Diversity and Inclusion Working Group has proposed the division adopt mandatory student-athlete graduation rate reporting for all schools — the type of  reporting already required in Divisions I and II.

A problem with athlete graduation rates at D3 is many D3 schools bring in large recruiting classes.  Once many of these kids realize they aren't destined to be a star they quit.  Many of those kids then transfer to different schools.  I know in the IIAC many of the schools talk about bringing in a freshman class of 50-60 football players and if everything goes well you'll have 20 that are still playing by their senior year.  Of those 30-40 kids that no longer play I would bet at least half have transferred out to another school. 

Yes, exactly. Ascertaining D3 graduation-rate data has to be a headache for exactly that reason -- participation in sports is voluntary, which tends to create a lot of fluidity in D3 rosters. At tuition-driven schools (which make up a substantial number of D3 institutions), boosting enrollment through overrecruitment is more or less standard practice. It's especially egregious in football, given the numbers involved, but it exists in several other sports as well. I'm surprised that the article didn't even mention these aspects of D3 student-athlete data.

I believe that this is a misdirected effort. It is just as important to help the young student-athlete understand the gifts, talents, and desires that they have at 18 or 19 years of age.  When they finally realize that they are not going to be a starter on the athletic team, and the camaraderie of the team for the "hangers-on" is not worth the financial outlay, then it is time to move on.

Why is something as specific as a "Football Player" so critical?  Do we ask the same of any student who tries out for the lead role in the Fall Drama production, doesn't get the role, and then leaves school? If the kid does not want to remain in school to be a "stage hand" for 4 years, does that number show up as "retention failure" for the School of Fine Arts?

Good points, Ralph.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..” -- John Wooden

Offline Warren Thompson

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2438 on: April 24, 2018, 04:44:43 pm »
Some private D3 institutions, including one I'm fairly familiar with, deliberately take in freshmen with dubious academic backgrounds, many of whom will be gone by the second semester. And we know why: they (or their parents) pay money to stick around from September till December. Some, of course, happen to be athletes, including football players.

While I understand that many of these venues have increasing need for dollars, I also have some reservations about the ethics of accepting money from students when they are being treated as what might be called the academic equivalent of cannon fodder.

Do I have a solution to this situation? No, I don't, yet I'm convinced there has to be one.

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2439 on: April 24, 2018, 05:00:40 pm »
Some private D3 institutions, including one I'm fairly familiar with, deliberately take in freshmen with dubious academic backgrounds, many of whom will be gone by the second semester. And we know why: they (or their parents) pay money to stick around from September till December. Some, of course, happen to be athletes, including football players.

While I understand that many of these venues have increasing need for dollars, I also have some reservations about the ethics of accepting money from students when they are being treated as what might be called the academic equivalent of cannon fodder.

Do I have a solution to this situation? No, I don't, yet I'm convinced there has to be one.

I would respond that the fiduciary obligation to that student and his/her parents from/by the college is to provide the remedial support, including assessment of academic skills which that student-athlete did not achieve, acquire, or develop, to succeed.  The coaching staffs at those colleges would be acting in the student/athlete's interest to confirm that the student/athlete is attending class, using college sponsored tutoring that is available to all students (no preferences) and striving to take advantage of these opportunities afforded in campus life. The college has given the student-athlete the chance to turn his/her life around or to reach goals that the nay-sayers do not believe can reached. It might even require diagnostic testing to see if there are any previously undetermined learning challenges in the student/athlete.

This may be an area for emphasis in a college that has a higher than average percentage of first generation attendees. 

That is a covenant relationship that a college may undertake in good faith. How many successful "saves" do you need to make that a worthy endeavor for the outreach of the institution?  Do you save 10%? 20%? If this challenge is laid out for the parents and the student/athlete at the beginning of the recruitment process, then I believe that it is a valid program.

Offline Gray Fox

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2440 on: April 24, 2018, 06:20:30 pm »
Ralph and Warren,
  Excellent points.
Don’t pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he’ll just kill you.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2441 on: April 24, 2018, 08:19:08 pm »
That's why they're Hall of Famers. They're making yours truly look good. ;)
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..” -- John Wooden

Offline Warren Thompson

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2442 on: April 25, 2018, 03:39:48 pm »
Aw shucks, Greg. I'm happy I could be of help to you.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 03:41:59 pm by Warren Thompson »

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2443 on: April 25, 2018, 07:48:30 pm »
Of course, I meant "look good" in the all-Hall-of-Famers-are-obviously-smart sense. I wouldn't want that to be misinterpreted!
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..” -- John Wooden

Offline smedindy

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2444 on: May 08, 2018, 11:49:35 pm »
This is kind of the opposite of what I experienced at my Alma Mater. When I did a check in 2006 or so, the student melt from the football players that didn't make it through the senior year wasn't that high.