Top 25 talk

Started by Lurker, March 23, 2005, 09:02:04 AM

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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Hey Sager - I'm done ... sometimes it is pointless to try and have a conversation when you, and others, twist things around to your own making - even when people, like myself, make mistakes thanks the constant twisting.

A couple of CCIWers asked why Wheaton didn't grab a significant amount of points ... while Wabash did. You didn't like the fact that I see the loss to NPU as significant and noteworthy. You rather I (and the rest of the voters) see what you see ... NPU turning a corner and should be recognized as such. "Look! They won two big games in ten days! Forget what happened otherwise." (See my note on sarcasm below.)

Maybe NPU has turned the corner, but I'm not making that rash judgement now. Maybe in January or February. Right now, Wheaton lost to NPU and Chicago (by 30) while also beating Oshkosh and IWU. Good for them. I think they have been rewarded accordingly while also knocked accordingly. As much as I'm voting for them, I see all of that as inconsistent and I suspect I am not the only voter who sees that as such. I really don't care if NPU is turning the corner in your opinion ... they are 3-7 and while two wins over two Top 25s are nice, they have seven losses against a variety of teams that doesn't provide me any "benefit" to give Wheaton for losing to NPU.

Wabash is undefeated. I included them in my last five slots for that fact, the win over Wooster, and other items I saw when I dove into their resume. BTW Wheaton is higher on my ballot ... but who really gives a damn.

And I really don't care who you are arguing for or not ... you seem to be arguing for everything and anything if it somehow helps your argument or can stir the pot.

BTW - you might have been hyperbolic, but I have to be sure that what I say is what I actually said. I am misquoted FAR too often on these boards, on the show, and in general. So while you might be having fun and doing it in jest ... others may not see it as such. They start touting the fact that "Dave said this" ... "Dave said that" and suddenly I'm saying things I didn't say. So it would be nice if you understood that I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth even if someone is being hyperbolic. You aren't the one who fields phone calls, texts, tweets, emails, etc. when some BS gets back to a coach or program that doesn't know any better. I've already had to deal with this twisting of what I've said one particular program resulting in a complete misrepresentation of what was actually said. So please, consider that when you decide to throw around "exaggeration for effect" regarding me.

And the sarcastic "surely you've come in contact with it at some point or another" comment can be put where the sun doesn't shine. You know full well I'm familiar with it .. but I am not interested in letting you use me as a punching bag of your occasional "higher than thou" approach because Mr. Right isn't on the soccer boards as often anymore.

And yes .. I'm frustrated and pissed. I try and convey simple points and perspective from a voter and some of you lose your freakin minds as if the world is falling down around you. Chill out. Don't keep trying to bash your logic and thinking through everyone else's heads just because they don't agree with you. Present the argument, I'm happy to counter with my perspective, and we can discuss from there.
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duckfan41

For what it's worth, I thought it was wishful thinking on my own part that Wheaton would crack into the Top 25 again this week. The NPU loss was a bad one (not taking anything away from the Vikings, but it was a bad loss), especially when also accounting for the 30 point beat down at home to Chicago earlier that week. Those losses should definitely still carry weight in this weeks poll because they happened.

I have nothing to do with the poll at all, but I would venture to say that Wheaton probably has to beat Platteville AND North Central this week to re-enter the Top 25. Or at worst lose a close one @Platteville and then win convincingly at home against North Central. I still feel like it's a little early to get wrapped up in who is ranked and who isn't, but I guess we saw how it can certainly generate conversation when games aren't being played for a couple days.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AM
Hey Sager - I'm done ... sometimes it is pointless to try and have a conversation when you, and others, twist things around to your own making - even when people, like myself, make mistakes thanks the constant twisting.

Dave, I'm not twisting anything. I've been nothing but straightforward in this conversation. I don't care how Wheaton's poll position is affected from last week to this week. I care about North Park. That was the reason why I posted in the first place -- because I objected to the way that you and Fifth & Putnam characterized the Vikings with the brackets and the extraneous punctuation.

Nothing I've said here has twisted anything that you, or anyone else, has said. And your mistakes are your own responsibility, not mine.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMA couple of CCIWers asked why Wheaton didn't grab a significant amount of points ... while Wabash did. You didn't like the fact that I see the loss to NPU as significant and noteworthy.

No, that's not true. Again, you're the one putting words into my mouth in this conversation, not the other way around. I don't care about Wheaton vis-a-vis its game with North Park. I care about North Park. Period. I care about the way that this current Vikings team is perceived, and what I saw as a slight by you and another poster regarding the Vikings, which does not ring true in the light of the NPU win over NCC on Saturday.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMYou rather I (and the rest of the voters) see what you see ... NPU turning a corner and should be recognized as such. "Look! They won two big games in ten days! Forget what happened otherwise." (See my note on sarcasm below.)

Come on, Dave. Again you're putting words in my mouth. I never said "forget what happened otherwise," or anything of the sort. I said that the Vikings are improving, and that they've won two games over Top 25 teams within the past week. Those facts are indisputable.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMMaybe NPU has turned the corner, but I'm not making that rash judgement now.

It's not a "rash judgment." It's a reasonable extrapolation based upon recent events. But it's not gospel truth, either. As I said before, I don't have a crystal ball. It remains to be seen what will happen to the Vikings from here on out. For all I know, those could be the only two CCIW wins that the Vikings pick up all season. But, equally for all I know, they could win a whole bunch more than just those two. Or it could be something in between. After all, "turn the corner" is a pretty subjective term.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMMaybe in January or February. Right now, Wheaton lost to NPU and Chicago (by 30) while also beating Oshkosh and IWU. Good for them.

Don't care. Don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care.

I. Don't. Care.

My diploma says "North Park College" on it, not "Wheaton College". I broadcast for North Park University, not for Wheaton College. I root for North Park University, not for Wheat-- ... well, I think that we all know whom I don't root for. ;)

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMI think they have been rewarded accordingly while also knocked accordingly. As much as I'm voting for them, I see all of that as inconsistent and I suspect I am not the only voter who sees that as such. I really don't care if NPU is turning the corner in your opinion ... they are 3-7 and while two wins over two Top 25s are nice, they have seven losses against a variety of teams that doesn't provide me any "benefit" to give Wheaton for losing to NPU.

All of which doesn't concern me at all. I've already expressed what my concern is in this conversation. That hasn't changed.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMWabash is undefeated. I included them in my last five slots for that fact, the win over Wooster, and other items I saw when I dove into their resume. BTW Wheaton is higher on my ballot ... but who really gives a damn.

I think we both know the answer to that question. ;)

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMAnd I really don't care who you are arguing for or not ... you seem to be arguing for everything and anything if it somehow helps your argument or can stir the pot.

That is total and utter crap, and you know it. Dave, I have a lot of respect for you. But you are coming close to crossing a dangerous line here with me.

Get this straight, Dave: I am not stirring anything. I am not arguing "for everything and anything." I care about my school's men's basketball program. That is my one and only concern here. If you think that I have any other interests in this discussion whatsoever, then I have sorely underestimated you.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMBTW - you might have been hyperbolic, but I have to be sure that what I say is what I actually said. I am misquoted FAR too often on these boards, on the show, and in general. So while you might be having fun and doing it in jest ... others may not see it as such. They start touting the fact that "Dave said this" ... "Dave said that" and suddenly I'm saying things I didn't say. So it would be nice if you understood that I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth even if someone is being hyperbolic. You aren't the one who fields phone calls, texts, tweets, emails, etc. when some BS gets back to a coach or program that doesn't know any better. I've already had to deal with this twisting of what I've said one particular program resulting in a complete misrepresentation of what was actually said. So please, consider that when you decide to throw around "exaggeration for effect" regarding me.

That street runs both ways, Dave. You have consistently misrepresented me and put words in my mouth in this discussion. Some of it stems from a complete misunderstanding of my interests in starting the discussion in the first place -- you thought that I cared about Wheaton's ranking -- but some of it is just plain off-base. What I said initially about the Vikings being treated by posters as too incompetent to tie their own shoes was just a snarky comment. Seemed completely harmless to me, and it still does, but if it offends you or threatens you somehow, then I apologize for it. If anyone would have tried to read that as your words rather than mine, I would've been the first to correct them, and I think that you know that.

But, please, have enough self-perception to see how you are misrepresenting me in turn with comments such as, "Look! They won two big games in ten days! Forget what happened otherwise." and "you seem to be arguing for everything and anything if it somehow helps your argument or can stir the pot."

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMAnd the sarcastic "surely you've come in contact with it at some point or another" comment can be put where the sun doesn't shine. You know full well I'm familiar with it .. but I am not interested in letting you use me as a punching bag of your occasional "higher than thou" approach because Mr. Right isn't on the soccer boards as often anymore.

What the heck does Mr. Right or soccer have to do with this?

Dave, I'm not the slightest bit interested in using you or anyone else as a punching bag. I am interested in the same thing that you are -- making my point with clarity. I presented what I see as a valid argument that the team I support has been mischaracterized. Bringing personalities into this in ad hominem fashion is about the last thing that I expected to see, or wanted to see, tonight.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2018, 12:32:46 AMAnd yes .. I'm frustrated and pissed. I try and convey simple points and perspective from a voter and some of you lose your freakin minds as if the world is falling down around you. Chill out. Don't keep trying to bash your logic and thinking through everyone else's heads just because they don't agree with you. Present the argument, I'm happy to counter with my perspective, and we can discuss from there.

Dave, I'm not the one who reached for an ad hominem here, and I'm not the one who is attempting to gauge the motivations of the other person. When it comes to "chill out" -- physician, heal thyself.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Flying Dutch Fan

Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2018, 02:37:19 AM
Don't care. Don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care, don't care.

I. Don't. Care.



AMEN a million times!!!!  But then this is the top 25 board, not the NPU promotion board.   ;D  :o  :P
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Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 10, 2018, 09:28:17 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 10, 2018, 09:01:35 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 10, 2018, 08:57:21 PM
As I said, Dave, nobody at the corner of Foster & Kedzie is comparing the Vikings to Nebraska Wesleyan. But we are talking about two games that have occurred within the past ten days.

Ok... but what is the argument? That because North Park put a couple of games together that suddenly we should be elevating others?

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 10, 2018, 08:58:33 PM

Sure, Wabash is still undefeated (as they were last week), while Wheaton has 2 losses (as they did last week), but that doesn't explain THIS week's moves.  (And I've corrected my post above - I had mixed up Wheaton's men's and women's votes - they only rose FIVE points for beating the #8 ranked team on the road!.)

I sure hope this won't continue to happen - I feel dirty defending Wheaton! ;D

I am confused why people are dead set this MUST be a vote on this week's results only. That isn't how it works. Voters are weighing, differently for each, this week's results with the larger picture. I'm not going to ignore other results this season and only focus on this week's.

For example if I followed this week's results only, then I probably should have taken IWU from my Top 10 and removed them altogether... I mean ... they lost both games this week, right?

C'mon Dave.  You know I'm not arguing for evaluating ONLY this week's results.  But CHANGES this week should reflect MAINLY this week (with some re-evaluation of things not noticed before, or placed in a new context). 

I just can't see how Wabash beating #8 Wooster at home by two (and beating OWU on the road by 9) jumps them 110 points, while Wheaton beating #8 IWU on the road (and Olivet by 11 at home) adds FIVE points to their total - it just makes no sense to me.

I wasn't voting for Wheaton or Wabash last week; I have them both on my ballot this week (with Wheaton higher).

Honestly, the movement makes a lot of sense to me.  Wabash was undefeated and had a strong resume, but they've not been a factor in recent years and the schedule left something to be desired.  I imagine a lot of voters were saying, "Wabash looks good, but I want to hold off voting until they play Wooster."  They beat Wooster, so people started voting for them.  If 20 voters put them at 21, that's 100 points.  With the losses that happened around the country last week, I could image voters needing filler near the bottom.  An undefeated team that just beat Wooster might look a little better than a two-loss team that beat IWU.  I'm just saying - not my rationale, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
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KnightSlappy

#12095
I think a reasonable person could make an argument for Wheaton above Wabash, and I think another reasonable person could make an argument for Wabash above Wheaton.

I think North Park can tie their own shoes but I'm not confident they can walk, talk, and chew gum at the same time.

NEPAFAN

This is cringe worthy stuff.  Sager and Dave should take it offline, and I think Dave should resist the urge to respond to every nit of the Top 25. Too much energy and time spent on an uphill battle.
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Feeling a strange sense of deja vu...

Retreating to the UAA thread.

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Oy. I came back for this?  ???
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sac

Wabash was 5-0 coming into last week, their best previous win was Elmhurst who is now 4-3 or Rose Hulman 4-4

Last week Wabash won at Ohio Wesleyan and at home vs Wooster.  You might recognize those programs from the last 10+ years of D3hoops.com Top 25's.


Here me out here, but is it possible the huge point gain for Wabash is simply a re-evaluation of a team who came into this season with zero pre-season poll points, had no previous victorious to "move the needle", has an unblemished record and have now beaten 2 of the 3 big opponents in their particular conference.


BaboNation

Probably not a good time to mention that WPI is 8-0 and at an arithmetic progression of 5 points/week they could be 28-0 come tourney time and still be among "Others receiving votes".

Never mind.  I'll come back later.   :D

nescac1

I imagine that the voters are justifiably skeptical of WPI's schedule.  As a team that wasn't highly regarded in the preseason, they need a signature win.  If still without a loss on 1/3, WPI is a lock to crack the rankings. 

smedindy

I was skeptical of Wabash until they beat Wooster.

I don't like voting for Wheaton, really, in anything, but that's the same about Wittenberg and DPU as well. I do think Wabash is better than Wheaton, objectively. But conference road games are tough no matter what teams and what conference.


Darryl Nester

How They Fared (So Far)
As usual, a light week of action as many schools are ending their fall semesters.

Top 25

Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#1625Nebraska Wesleyan9-012/16 vs. George Fox
#2575Williams9-0IDLE
#3558Augustana7-112/15 vs. Millikin
#4531Hamilton9-0IDLE
#5529Whitman6-1IDLE
#6498UW-Oshkosh7-112/14 vs. Lawrence
#7485UW-Stevens Point6-1def. Ripon, 71-49; 12/15 vs. #39 St. Thomas
#8423MIT9-1def. Rhode Island College, 89-70; 12/13 vs. Bridgewater State
#9408Whitworth7-1def. D'Youville, 104-74
#10395Marietta8-012/15 vs. Wilmington
#11372UW-Whitewater7-012/15 vs. Ripon
#12353Wittenberg7-112/15 vs. Kenyon
#13305Rochester9-1LOST to Ithaca, 70-85
#14297Plattsburgh State8-1IDLE
#15226Illinois Wesleyan7-212/15 vs. Carroll
#16195Wooster7-1IDLE
#17175Randolph-Macon10-1IDLE
#18139Nichols9-0def. Johnson and Wales, 86-71
#19128St. John's7-1def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 87-70
#20125Loras6-112/13 vs. Buena Vista; 12/15 vs. Augsburg
#21123Christopher Newport7-112/16 vs. Virginia Wesleyan
#22110Wabash7-0IDLE
#2399Salisbury9-0IDLE
#2489Swarthmore7-2def. York (Pa.), 93-68
#2582Middlebury6-2IDLE


Others receiving votes
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
T#2637Scranton7-0IDLE
T#2637Amherst7-1def. Springfield, 76-67
#2835Lynchburg8-112/16 vs. McDaniel
#2931Wheaton (Ill.)8-2def. #35 UW-Platteville, 99-77; 12/15 vs. #30 North Central (Ill.)
#3025North Central (Ill.)   7-1def. Aurora, 83-73; 12/15 vs. #29 Wheaton (Ill.)
#3123Oswego State8-012/14 vs. St. Lawrence
#3222Pomona-Pitzer6-112/13 vs. Bethesda University; 12/16 vs. UC Santa Cruz
#3315WPI8-012/16 vs. Husson
#3414Johns Hopkins8-2IDLE
#3512UW-Platteville5-3LOST to #29 Wheaton (Ill.), 77-99; 12/15 vs. Hope
#3611Mount Union8-112/15 vs. Heidelberg
#378Montclair State9-2def. Rutgers-Newark, 59-55
#385New Jersey City7-312/15 vs. TCNJ
#393St. Thomas7-1def. Concordia-Moorhead, 79-70; 12/15 vs. #7 UW-Stevens Point
#402Endicott6-3LOST to Salem State, 91-94


Unbeaten teams with no votes (from hopefan's "The Undefeated and the Winless" list)
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
------Millsaps8-0IDLE (next game Tuesday, 12/18)
------Occidental                7-012/16 vs. Whittier
------Centre7-0def. Spalding, 65-39; 12/15 vs. Boyce

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh



We've entered the part of the season when teams are either off the court for an extended period of time or they are still practicing and playing occasional games leading up to a break around Christmas. It is an odd time of the season. You look away one night and forget there is a big game happening. You try and focus in another night only to realize there isn't much to watch (if anything).

Some schools are still wrapping up finals as well!

These few weeks can also be challenging to teams. Staying fresh even though there could be up to a month between games. Staying focused, even though academics are a much higher priority that what's happening on the court. And staying healthy despite travel to different parts of the country or back home to be with family.

Thursday night on Hoopsville, Dave tries to work his way through the distractions to talk to a few teams all of which still have games this December and seem to be off to pretty good starts. We'll even hear from a student-athlete's perspective. How are finals, the holidays, and travel affecting these programs?

Hoopsville is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. Thursday's episode will air live starting at 7:00 pm ET right here: http://bit.ly/2rA87rl (and via Facebook Live simulcast).

If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to hoopsville@d3hoops.com or use any of the social media options below.

Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Charles Katsiaficas, Pomona-Pitzer men's coach
- Ron Rohn, Muhlenberg women's coach
- Madison Temple, No. 4 Thomas More Senior guard
- Matt Lewis, No. 6 UW-Oshkosh men's interim coach

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts instead, you can get access to them or subscribe one of the three following ways (click on the images when necessary):
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