Division III football rivalries

Started by K-Mack, June 13, 2007, 01:37:14 AM

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'gro

#15
Quote from: Union89 on June 19, 2007, 12:28:37 PM

Gro, just out of curiousity, what is RPI's overall record vs. Union??  Also, who is that goofy looking dood wearing #98 for RPI??

Answer #1: Union has a slight 77-23-4 advantage in the series record. We weren't even trying for the 1st 100 years.

Answer #2: Don't know who that victorious engineer is wearing #98, but he looks like 225 lbs of twisted steel and sex appeal.

PBR...

gro thx for clearing that up because pbr thought it was all about the frozen cat turd....

K-Mack

Reposted from the ODAC board, midway through a discussion about the R-MC/H-SC rivalry:

Quote from: K-Mack on July 03, 2007, 02:31:53 AMRe: R-MC/H-SC

I am definitely not always up for The Game. I respect the rivalry. I love the atmosphere, it's basically a better version of homecoming each year.

That said, there's something important to me about the competitive aspect in a rivalry, and The Game has lacked that for 12 years now.

The three rivalries I regard ahead of ours are Williams-Amherst, DePauw-Wabash and Cortland State-Ithaca. They each end the season with each other, which is key, and they are often both good in the same year. They have the history (although Cortaca isn't even 100) and they each have something unique, be it the Monon Bell, Cortaca Jug or the private/public rivalry.

Williams kind of dominated Amherst for a while, but given how that was the grand finale, no playoffs, that rivalry seems to maintain its tradition.

And Jacket Lawyer, the NCAA has compiled the list of longest rivalries.

I hate to give away my research secrets, so you think I work really really hard crunching these numbers, but it's in their D2/D3 record book.

I-A and II have no rivalries longer than III's longest. I-AA has a bunch of 100+ games like we do, Lafayette-Lehigh is the kind, Harvard-Yale is up there, even Richmond v. William & Mary.

Some of D3s longest apparently aren't great rivalries, like Oxy vs. Pomona-Pitzer, for example.

There are some great D3 ones not mentioned in this post however, like Monmouth-Knox, Coe-Cornell and such. I started a rivalries thread linking to stories we've written about D3 rivalries.

The record book link: http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/football_records_book_d2_d3/2006_d2_d3_football_records.pdf

Lotta great info in there. Start with Page 92 and browse around some. The secret to being an ATN expert is out!
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Ralph Turner

Quote from: K-Mack on July 03, 2007, 02:37:24 AM
Reposted from the ODAC board, midway through a discussion about the R-MC/H-SC rivalry:

Quote from: K-Mack on July 03, 2007, 02:31:53 AMRe: R-MC/H-SC
... The secret to being an ATN expert ...

More accurately, it is the function of being a guru, from whom one can learn great things! ;)

frank uible

Oft times great things that ain't so.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: frank uible on July 03, 2007, 09:18:52 AM
Oft times great things that ain't so.

I didn't say it.  He did!   :D

Sabretooth Tiger

Quote from: K-Mack on July 03, 2007, 02:37:24 AM
Reposted from the ODAC board, midway through a discussion about the R-MC/H-SC rivalry:

Quote from: K-Mack on July 03, 2007, 02:31:53 AMRe: R-MC/H-SC


Some of D3s longest apparently aren't great rivalries, like Oxy vs. Pomona-Pitzer, for example.


K-Mack,

All due respect and gratitude for the great work you, Pat and the rest do bud, but I must take exception to this comment.  Not sure what you mean by a "great" rivalry, but this one runs in the Tiger blood:

From the first paragraph of the Oxy football media guide:

Occidental's tradition of winning football dates back to 1894, when Oxy fielded one of the first college football teams in Southern California.  The Occidental-Pomona football game, first played in 1895, is one of the oldest college football rivalries west of the Mississippi River.  Annually the two squads battle for the coveted "Drum", an Indian drum on which the results of the yearly game are displayed.  (The upstart USC-UCLA game didn't begin until 1929.)  The 1895 squad completed its season undefeated (including
a 10-0 victory over USC), a feat repeated in 1912, 1913, and most memorably in 1948, when the Tigers went 9-0 and finished the season with a dramatic come from-behind victory over heavily favored Colorado A&M (now Colorado State University) in the 1949 Raisin Bowl.   
[emphasis added].

K-Mack, the Pomona rivalry runs deep in all Tiger football players and in the Oxy community.  The public perception of the intensity of that rivalry may not be as apparent to the D3 crowd with its relatively more recent history and a couple of factors that keep the PR aspect of the rivarly down.  I'd speculate that contributing to your [mis]impression are:

1.  Pomona's not too long ago temporary absence from the SCIAC which did, in all candor, dim the rivalry fire for a bit.  I think that this also contributed to the Pomona game no longer being Oxy's homecoming every other year;

2.  Oxy's recent success compared to the Sagehens which has made Redlands and Cal Lu the "big" games when it comes to determing the SCIAC championship and national playoff implications. The competitive impact of those games certainly gets more attention in the press and on the boards. In fact, as you well know the SCIAC board chatter from Pomona fans/alums is nearly non-existent

But don't let this temporary dynamic fool you, anyone with a sense of Oxy history knows the deep ties between these institutions, the great competitiveness between them, and that the fight for "the Drum" will always remain a critical and meaningful part of Oxy football.

"Don't send my boy to Harvard, the dying mother said.
Don't send my boy to U.S.C., I'd rather see him dead!
But send him to ol' Oxy, 'tis better than Cornell,
and rather than Pomona, I'd see my boy in...SCRIPPS!"


Io Triumphe!

tooth
8)


frank uible

Oxy, has the Pomona-Pitzer thing muddied the rivalry water between Occidental and Pomona?

Pat Coleman

Pity the Occidental fans don't generally give this rivalry the status you now claim for it.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Sabretooth Tiger

Quote from: frank uible on July 03, 2007, 11:27:23 AM
Oxy, has the Pomona-Pitzer thing muddied the rivalry water between Occidental and Pomona?

Not a scintilla in my view.  We still look at Pomona as Pomona and Claremont and Claremont, notwithstanding that the Sagehens include Pitzer students and the Mudd and Scripps students are included w/ the Stags.

Sabretooth Tiger

Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 03, 2007, 11:42:03 AM
Pity the Occidental fans don't generally give this rivalry the status you now claim for it.

I'm not sure that's completely true.  Remember that you hear from only a particular, and very specific, slice of fans . . . web savvy so probably mostly younger (I could be wrong, have you done a survey?) and parents.

On these boards, OxyBob and I probably bring the longest/historical perspective of Oxy athletics, and I probably bring a more current perspective as well given some of my engagements with the college, that keep me in pretty close quarters.  Although Bob gets the attendance award as he gets to a lot more games than I.

As I said in my initial response to K-Mack, I think that there is a reason for the perception that you guys have, and part of that has to be driven by Oxy's recent history, which is certainly the focus of our discussions.

The Redlands rivalry is very high profile given the fact that ove the last couple of decades, Oxy and Redlands have, for the most part, been the contenders for the SCIAC championship and their graduates seem to dominate the board discussion.  When it comes to competitive football and meaning, the Oxy Redlands rivalry certainly gets a lot more attention these days . . . and it's an old one, but not as old or classic as Pomona.

Pomona's lack of competitiveness of late is a problem contributing to the impressions you have (imho) . . . but I confident in telling you that the roots run deep and are are appreciated by the fans, players and coaches. 

cheers,

Sabretooth Tiger

Admittedly, this entire subject turns on the question of what is a "great" rivalry . . . with the answer turning on one's definition of "great" . . . a rather nebulous term standing on its own.

"Great" in terms of media attention and PR?
"Great" in terms of the impact on conference races?
"Great" in terms of historical context?
"Great" in terms of school/fan spirit and engagement?
"Great" in terms of longevity?
"Great" compared to other local rivalries?  Regional?  National? Compared to what?

ad infinitum

PBR...

pbr has been to the LONGEST CONTINOUS RIVALRY in college football numerous times that would be Lehigh/Lafayette. I have to say the media attention is usually high, impact on conference races is almost always at stake, historical context...well that speaks for itself, spirit of the fans/communities is unbelievable. if anyone ever gets the chance go take the game in. since the schools are so close and in the same metropolis (allentown/bethlehem/easton) it is more than a fever pitch although it has calmed somewhat from the crazy 70s - 90s, when fraternities would rip down the wood goal posts and do full out battle for a piece of one and proudly display it that night at the parties. it truly is a great game and time.
i have been to both stadiums including the "old" lehigh stadium on campus and the "new" stadium a  few miles off campus and of course lafayettes stadium. great history and great academic schools.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Sabretooth Tiger on July 03, 2007, 12:20:47 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 03, 2007, 11:42:03 AM
Pity the Occidental fans don't generally give this rivalry the status you now claim for it.

I'm not sure that's completely true.  Remember that you hear from only a particular, and very specific, slice of fans . . . web savvy so probably mostly younger (I could be wrong, have you done a survey?) and parents.

Aren't those the people who define the modern sense of the rivalry, though?
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Josh Bowerman

It's always nice to see DIII get coverage by the "outside" press, and this was a nice article. 

I should point out that, depending on one's perspective and historical interpretation of Cotton Mather's life work/writings, Yale actually DID defect from Harvard, contrary to the assertion in the article.   ;)

Thanks for sharing, Keith!

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