Division III football rivalries

Started by K-Mack, June 13, 2007, 01:37:14 AM

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Sabretooth Tiger

Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 03, 2007, 01:27:40 PM
Quote from: Sabretooth Tiger on July 03, 2007, 12:20:47 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 03, 2007, 11:42:03 AM
Pity the Occidental fans don't generally give this rivalry the status you now claim for it.

I'm not sure that's completely true.  Remember that you hear from only a particular, and very specific, slice of fans . . . web savvy so probably mostly younger (I could be wrong, have you done a survey?) and parents.

Aren't those the people who define the modern sense of the rivalry, though?

They certainly seem to define it here in our virtual D3 community, granted . . . that's why I wanted to jump in w/ my admittedly more than 2 cents worth to give a broader perspective and maybe help "turn the ship" or at least give you and K-Mack something to think about.

And the rivalry is not exactly not known here on the left coast/so cal region.  Here are some blurbs from the past couple of years:

Los Angeles Daily News "For A Real Rivalry, See Oxy-Pomona"
Staff Writer Scott French notes that the UCLA-USC football rivalry is in its infancy compared to the Pomona-Occidental contest, which dates to 1895. "The Southland's oldest college football rivalry is, as might be expected, steeped in tradition and lore, firing up alumni from two great academic institutions in an annual showdown for, at the least, bragging rights," writes French. This year's Pomona-Oxy game is set for Oct. 29.


Occidental football was the subject of a major Los Angeles Times story that ran on the front page of the Nov. 9 sports section. The article, published under the headline "Un of a Kind," highlighted Oxy as having one of the only undefeated football programs – aside from USC – in Southern California. The Tigers' 63-21 loss to Linfield in the first round of the NCAA Division III playoffs was reported in the Nov. 20 editions of the Times and the Los Angeles Daily News. Occidental's historic rivalry with Pomona was the subject of stories in the Oct. 25 Daily News and the Oct. 28 edition of the Chronicle of Higher Education. Outside linebacker Alfredo Gamiz '06 was profiled in the Oct. 26 Inland Valley Daily Bulletin in Ontario, and All-Conference honors for Ric Fukushima '06 and Derek Turbin '06 were reported in the Dec. 7 Honolulu Star-Bulletin.

I know that the Oxy/Pomona game has, over the years, gotten some nice write-ups in the L.A. Times, but I don't have time to do a search for them now.

I'm not faulting K-Mack's view based on his point of view . . . just trying to add a little information to the mix and to let you guys know that some of us think that Oxy-Pomona falls w/i the "great" rivalries category.

cheers,

tooth

Pat Coleman

Lengthy doesn't automatically mean heated.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

theoriginalupstate

Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 03, 2007, 09:33:38 PM
Lengthy doesn't automatically mean heated.

Word!

SJF vs UR and SJF vs IC are quickly becoming one of the better football rivalries....

K-Mack

Quote from: Sabretooth Tiger on July 03, 2007, 12:20:47 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 03, 2007, 11:42:03 AM
Pity the Occidental fans don't generally give this rivalry the status you now claim for it.

As I said in my initial response to K-Mack, I think that there is a reason for the perception that you guys have, and part of that has to be driven by Oxy's recent history, which is certainly the focus of our discussions

The reason I said that is because in the early years of ATN, I mentioned it among the great rivalries, probably because of its length and not really having any special knowledge one way or the other beyond what I'd read about the drum and such.

I got feedback saying that it wasn't much of a rivalry at all, and that Pomona-Pitzer considers CMS its rivalry game.

Until I read those messages, I don't really remember ever hearing, on my trips to Oxy or in conversations with Oxy fans, any comments that led me to believe the rivalry was on par with, say, DePauw-Wabash.

Not saying what was said then has to be true and what you're saying today is false, just explaining where I got that perception.

This is the rivalries thread, however, so campaign and explain away.

If I had to rank the rivalries today, based on a formula I am purely making up as I write this (history, tradition, competitiveness, atmosphere and significance to the team, team's season/schedule and alumni), I'd go:

1. Williams-Amherst
2. DePauw-Wabash (could probably meet the criteria for No. 1)
3. Cortland-Ithaca
4. Randolph-Macon / Hampden-Sydney (falling fast due to lack of competitiveness)
5. Monmouth-Knox
6. Union-RPI
7. Hanover-Franklin
8. St. John's-St. Thomas
9. Coe-Cornell
I'd also put up for consideration Coast Guard-Kings Point, Trinity-Wesleyan, CBB and the rest of the NESCAC ones, Wheaton-North Central and I guess either of the Pomona ones.

Probably forgetting a few.

Definitely willing to hear arguments to tweak these rankings. I'm pretty solid on my top 3, and likely on the top 5, but I really didn't give it a lot of thought after that ... just threw something out there to get people talking.

There are other rivalries which are rather lengthy which don't seem to rile up the crowds (Albion-Kalamazoo, Hamline-Macalester) ... and some younger trophy games (Soup Bowl, Regents Cup) which seem to be up and coming.
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K-Mack

Quote from: Sabretooth Tiger on July 03, 2007, 12:47:26 PM
Admittedly, this entire subject turns on the question of what is a "great" rivalry . . . with the answer turning on one's definition of "great" . . . a rather nebulous term standing on its own.

"Great" in terms of media attention and PR?
"Great" in terms of the impact on conference races?
"Great" in terms of historical context?
"Great" in terms of school/fan spirit and engagement?
"Great" in terms of longevity?
"Great" compared to other local rivalries?  Regional?  National? Compared to what?

ad infinitum

We certainly can discuss the criteria for great rivalry.

It was definitely an offhand comment, but based only on comments from out your way.

I definitely think longevity/history is a factor, but longest doesn't mean best.

I think the best rivalries are the ones which the team/school community looks forward to all year, where a season can be salvaged in an upset, when the game practically functions as homecoming if it's not the real homecoming. Where it is in the schedule (same week each year, preferably end of regular season) is a factor. Competitiveness is a major factor, as it would be with any game ... the tighter it is, or is expected to be, the more exciting it generally is. Significance, as in meaning to the school's alums or as in impact on conference races or playoff bids, is another huge factor. In Amherst and Williams' case, it IS the playoffs. Many an undefeated season has been preserved or spoiled in that game.

The trophies are nice, but they alone don't make the game.

I think atmosphere, anticipation, meaning, significance help define "best."

Feel free to agree/disagree.

I also like Muhlenberg-Moravian in the top 10 above.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
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and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

For anyone who is interested, allsky7, jacketlawyer and I (and others) are discussing the R-MC/H-SC rivalry in depth, and what made it great and why it's been falling off lately.

Maybe some more perspective there on what makes a rivalry great.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

PA_wesleyfan

K-Mack

What about Wesley/Salisbury st.  a lot of those kids actually come from the same towns. Or Kings/Wilkes the schools are across the street from each other.
Football !!! The ultimate team sport. Anyone who plays DIII football is a winner...

INQBScout

QuoteLengthy doesn't automatically mean heated.

excellent point...

K-Mack

Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on July 04, 2007, 11:15:28 AM
K-Mack

What about Wesley/Salisbury st.  a lot of those kids actually come from the same towns. Or Kings/Wilkes the schools are across the street from each other.

King's/Wilkes is a good one.

Wesley/Salisbury State I would personally file under competitive rivalries, a la Rowan/Montclair State or Linfield/Pacific Lutheran.

You know, there are rivalries, and then there are rivalry games.

Willing to listen to compelling arguments for any game though.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
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Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
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and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Jonny Utah

whats the average attendence for the Wabash/Depaw game?  And how long has it been going on?

Pat Coleman

Drew 11,669 last year at Wabash. DePauw limits ticket sales in recent years.

Wabash leads the series 53-51-9.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 05, 2007, 10:49:01 AM
Drew 11,669 last year at Wabash. DePauw limits ticket sales in recent years.

Wabash leads the series 53-51-9.

This limiting ticket sales is hogwash.  Was there an SI article on that game about 10 years ago?

Pat Coleman

Probably.

The ticket limit at DePauw is 8,000. Looked it up.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

K-Mack

Maybe they feel that's all they can hold (though I remember plenty of open area around the end zones) and all they can provide security for, which is a significant consideration at games of this magnitude.

On my visit, all the Wabash people said "Thanks for coming, but it's better in Crawfordsville."
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: K-Mack on July 05, 2007, 12:12:20 PM
Maybe they feel that's all they can hold (though I remember plenty of open area around the end zones) and all they can provide security for, which is a significant consideration at games of this magnitude.

On my visit, all the Wabash people said "Thanks for coming, but it's better in Crawfordsville."

Do they need a whole barracks of State Troopers like at the cortland/Ithaca game?  Are there people literally puking in the parking lot ouside the game?

I think if you show an ID at these games and you are like 23+ or 25+ you should get in at the gate.  I would have to assume that some money is being made at this game for security.

And theres plenty of room at Cortland too for extra people instead of limiting ticket sales to 10,000 or 12,000 or what ever they limit it too.