Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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David Collinge

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2005, 07:48:46 PMDo you agree with this comparison?

It is a slightly greater challenge to face St. Johns in the playoffs than to face Ohio Northern during the season; and
It is a MUCH greater challenge to face late semester academics while competing in the playoffs.
I just don't have the information I need to quantify the costs and benefits.  I feel like I've already said that.   ::)
I didn't play sports in college, and college was so long ago for me that I've forgotten most of the athletes I knew.  Therefore I am ill-suited to discuss how much of a burden an 11th game is on a football-playing student.  But I think smeds makes a good point that lots of students have other things going on at that time of the semester, and there's no handwringing about it.  In my case, I found it difficult to find time for late-semester study after allocating time for the wide variety of debauchery in which I specialized.  In fact, by that time of the semester, I was regrettably forced to dispense with class attendance in favor of more, uhm, stimulating activities.   8)

Seriously, though, I understand your concern with the administration sanctioning a seemingly large obstacle to classroom performance, but I fail to understand how that obstacle is so much larger in week 11 than it was in week 10.

For the record, as to your tripart question to smeds, I'd tenatively agree with statements #1 and #2 (that football is a burden) but generally disagree with statement #3.  College kids seem to have a wonderful ability to find "extra burdens" if none are found for them. 

I rarely saw any football players in the library late on a Friday night.  The fact that I never set foot in the library late on a Friday night (let alone early on a Tuesday morning, or at almost any other time) doesn't change the fact that I never saw them there! ;)

smedindy

I disagree that they are significant extra burdens, for one, for football players over other students with activities.

It is an extra game, but at least here the players treat each game equally.

Your implication was that their work suffers, mainly because you use the phrase athletics over academics. The subtext is there.

You fail to acknowledge that other students with activities in November and December also run into this same situation.

And you fail to acknowledge that one week of the playoffs falls during Thanksgiving break, when no classes are jeopardized.

And please, do not compare me to other posters. That is rude and condescending, and I do not like to communicate with those who are that.


redswarm81

Quote from: David Collinge on November 04, 2005, 09:50:28 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2005, 07:48:46 PMDo you agree with this comparison?

It is a slightly greater challenge to face St. Johns in the playoffs than to face Ohio Northern during the season; and
It is a MUCH greater challenge to face late semester academics while competing in the playoffs.
I just don't have the information I need to quantify the costs and benefits. I feel like I've already said that. ::)

That's the only difference--and it's a subtle difference--in our opinions.  I don't need to quantify the square footage to know that the woods behind my house are larger in area than my half acre lot.

The additional benefit of a playoff game (over and above the regular season benefit) is dwarfed by that playoff game's burden on the players' academics.

Quote from: David Collinge on November 04, 2005, 09:50:28 PM
I didn't play sports in college, and college was so long ago for me that I've forgotten most of the athletes I knew. Therefore I am ill-suited to discuss how much of a burden an 11th game is on a football-playing student.
It's not just an 11th game, it's a playoff game.  Big difference.

I played sports in college and trust me, the higher the stakes, the more difficult it is to focus on academics.

Quote from: David Collinge on November 04, 2005, 09:50:28 PM
But I think smeds makes a good point that lots of students have other things going on at that time of the semester, and there's no handwringing about it.
How many of Smed's "other activities" are athletic activities?  Division III doesn't say "academics before performances for our theater majors," or "academics before student newspaper for our journalism majors."  Division III says "academics before athletics."

Besides, how many of those "other activities" are additional, optional late semester-only activities sponsored by the institution?  Yes, the college bowl national competitor for instance, but that's a bit more academic than football.

Quote from: David Collinge on November 04, 2005, 09:50:28 PMFor the record, as to your tripart question to smeds, I'd tenatively agree with statements #1 and #2 (that football is a burden) but generally disagree with statement #3. College kids seem to have a wonderful ability to find "extra burdens" if none are found for them.
And few of those "extra burdens" are officially sanctioned by the administration.

I realize I'm asking you guys to focus on a narrow point.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

smedindy

It is not dwarfed - you make the statements, back them up, please. How much does it affect the academics? How much does it suffer?

At all schools, it is academics first before any activity. I think that is implicit.

eaglemaniac

I've enjoyed your dialogue regarding this subject and hope you don't mind an outsiders viewpoint.
As I see it, you're talking about the benefits of a playoff vs. the toll it takes upon a student. I must say that life is short and you never know what it will bring. To limit one's ability to compete for a championship in my mind is very narrow minded no matter the short term (Read grade on test ) cost it might bring.
Some day these kids will be Parents and should never have to say "If only I'd had a chance" at a Title/Championship etc..... but instead were willing to accept the  "It's good enough to just play the game" attitude.  Life is about reaching for goals and if you think 4 years of college is the be all/end all of life, well you've got a rude awakening coming.. Sorry for my ranting....
I may not always be Right........But I'm never Wrong!

redswarm81

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:47:20 PM
I disagree that they are significant extra burdens, for one, for football players over other students with activities.
But to the extent the other students with activities are not athletes with athletic activities that are not known at the start of the season, those other students' activities are irrelevant to the issue of academics over athletics.

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:47:20 PM
It is an extra game, but at least here the players treat each game equally.
Even David, our non-athlete contributor, recognizes the fallacy in such a claim.  A playoff game is higher stakes against higher level competition.  If I were your players' coach I'd be upset if they treated the playoff game like any other game.

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:47:20 PMYour implication was that their work suffers, mainly because you use the phrase athletics over academics. The subtext is there.
That's your inference, not my implication.  I state that the burden is greater, I don't ever imply that individuals can't meet that burden.

But at least I'm honest enough to admit that it is an extra burden.  If the team weren't playing a playoff game, there'd be no athletic burden on the athletes' academics, right Smed?

I question whether a school can justify placing that extra burden on the athletes, for the sake of athletics, claiming all the while that it emphasizes academics over athletics.

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:47:20 PMYou fail to acknowledge that other students with activities in November and December also run into this same situation.
Athletic activities?

Athletic activities that are not known and scheduled in September when the semester starts?

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:47:20 PMAnd you fail to acknowledge that one week of the playoffs falls during Thanksgiving break, when no classes are jeopardized..
I always had classes on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.  Has that changed?

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:47:20 PMAnd please, do not compare me to other posters. That is rude and condescending, and I do not like to communicate with those who are that.
I'm sorry Smed, I really am.  I realized after I posted that you hadn't actually claimed that I said football players' grades necessarily suffer in November if they are in the playoffs.  You simply demanded that I tell you that football players' grades necessarily suffer in November if they are in the playoffs.  Therefore, the comparison to ktroutvon, who consistently accuses me of hiding meaning behind my words, was inappropriate.  Please accept my humble apologies.

And please understand that the question of whether or not the football players' grades necessarily suffer in November if they are in the playoffs is mostly irrelevant to the point I've raised.

Also, please understand that other, non-athletic activities in November and December are even more irrelevant.

My question remains whether a school can honestly claim that it is emphasizing academics over athletics when it permits its football team to participate in a five week post-season playoff.

You believe that the school can make that claim, because you believe that the fact they are students means academics comes before athletics.  I find that assertion laughable.  The same claim could be made in Division 1--would you believe it?
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

redswarm81

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:53:21 PM
It is not dwarfed - you make the statements, back them up, please. How much does it affect the academics? How much does it suffer?
Smed, think back to when you were playing football.  Can you honestly say that there weren't some games that distracted you from academics more than other games?

Quote from: smedindy on November 04, 2005, 10:53:21 PM
At all schools, it is academics first before any activity. I think that is implicit.

Including Division 1, right?  So why do we need Division III?

When the semester starts in September, the football team has an 8, 9, or 10 game season scheduled.  The players and the school can gauge the relative burden that the athletic schedule places on academics.

(Unless the players and the school administrators are incapable of recognizing or gauging such burdens, instead demanding data or throwing out red herrings such as comparison to "other activities," but I digress.)

When November 13 arrives, the football team may find that it has an additional athletic burden placed on it, one that wasn't known in September.  The burden on academics that the football team faced in September has now been met, and there is a new burden, one that may last for five weeks, increasing in intensity throughout.

Throughout those five weeks, the intensity of the academic burdens is likely increasing, as the school and the players understood in September.

The school is permitting an additional burden to be placed on the football players--entirely for the sake of athletics--during the time of increasing academic burden.  I don't see how that school can be claiming to be emphasizing academics over athletics by permitting that extra burden be placed on the football  players,  entirely for the sake of athletics.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

smedindy

I'm done. You don't get it.

Activities are what they are. They're scheduled, and added to. Forums and meetings crop up all of the time, unscheduled. Have you not been on a campus lately?

You treat EACH game like it was a playoff game, that's my point. You prepare for each game the same way.

We've dithered and harangued long enough.

There is no undue burden, not one that can't be met - not one that adversely affects student athletes in any way that they cannot meet it like any other student.


redswarm81

Quote from: smedindy on November 05, 2005, 12:55:40 AM
There is no undue burden, not one that can't be met - not one that adversely affects student athletes in any way that they cannot meet it like any other student.

But whether it can or can't be met is not the question I asked.  The question is whether the burden should be placed on athletes, while claiming that academics trump athletics?

I get it.  I wish you did.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

Mr. Ypsi

The question also could be phrased: "Are d3 athletes little children who need to be protected?"

I phrase it that way because I wonder if you REALLY think any d3 athlete sees making the post-season as a 'burden'?!

I teach at a d1 school (which admittedly has gone MANY seasons since any football player needed to worry about the post-season!), but where track and field athletes quite frequently are involved in the post-season during winter term finals.  For those who ARE student-athletes (there ARE some!) we negotiate a solution; those who are more athlete than student may well flunk out.  The post-season is a CHALLENGE; it is a PROBLEM only for athletes who are not really students, or for professors who are not willing to be flexible.  (And, yes, I also make accommodations for drama students, student news-reporters, those who must work full time, students with family emergencies, etc. - I never bend the standards, but I realize that my students have [sometimes messy] lives.)

Since Williams is so proud of the all-sports titles, I wonder why they 'coddle' ONLY their football players?

redswarm81

I never thought of the Division III goal of "academics before athletics" as synonymous with "coddling athletes."

Some of these Division III students could overcome the additional academic burden of having their legs amputated.  Dr. Charles Krauthammer, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the Washington Post, broke his neck while attending Harvard Medical school, yet still managed to complete his studies as a quadriplegic.  The fact that students can overcome tremendous burdens is not the issue.

No school--not even Harvard Medical School  ;)--would contemplate placing burdens on students such as those faced by Dr. Krauthammer, despite the fact that students can overcome such burdens.

Playoffs cause players to suffer a tremendous distraction from academics, anyone who maintains otherwise is either ignorant or dishonest.

(With the possible exception of MUC) Playoffs are not part of the known, scheduled distraction that athletes will face.

Playoffs provide a slight increase in overall educational/academic-related benefits that accrue to the athletes, but that increase is small relative to the distraction from academics that the athletes will suffer, a distraction from academics that would not exist if the team were not in the playoffs.

Not participating in the playoffs means that there is no school-endorsed activity causing the football players a guaranteed distraction from academics.

Division III schools claim to promote academics over athletics, yet permit their athletes to accept a tremendous distraction from academics by participating in national playoffs.

Should we accept Division III schools abiding by a policy that says "we'll negotiate a solution--if you're more athlete than student, you'll flunk out?"  I thought the "academics before athletics" policy was designed to avoid having to negotiate such solutions.   I thought the Division III policy was designed to prevent Division III students from becoming more athlete than student.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

union89

Storm ~

Just curious.......did you ever play in an NCAA sanctioned playoff game???

frank uible

Why shouldn't the colleges treat the students as if they are young adults and allow each of them to decide what burdens to undertake rather than paternalistically decide on behalf of all students that the burdens of post-season play are too great and that consequently post-season play should be prohibited?

bbald eagle

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2005, 01:14:57 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 03, 2005, 06:56:46 PM
why is football UNIQUELY bad for post-season competition?

Williams . . . obviously have a LOT of athletes spending a LOT of extra time in the post-season.  While football may involve more student-athletes (ONLY in d3 can I type that phrase without gagging!) than any other specific sport, ALL the sports Williams (or anyone else) participates in collectively dwarf football.  So, WHY is postseason in football different?

I just don't understand why football is being singled out (in the NESCAC and in this discussion).  MOST of the arguments apply to no one or apply to all sports.

Let's face it Doc, the biggest reason for the focus of the discussion is that this is d3football.com.


Hmm... D3sports.com, right?  Basketball, too.

redswarm81

#119
Quote from: union89 on November 05, 2005, 02:17:32 AM
Storm ~

Just curious.......did you ever play in an NCAA sanctioned playoff game???

Are you talking to me?
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977