Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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Knightstalker

I know from trying to keep up with things where I grew up that some Lafayette Alums want to give football scholarships, at least that is what is reported in the express times quite often.  There were also stories that some in the administration wanted to investigate a move to D-III, it seems that was more grumbling than anything else.

"In the end we will survive rather than perish not because we accumulate comfort and luxury but because we accumulate wisdom"  Colonel Jack Jacobs US Army (Ret).

Jonny Utah

#901
Quote from: Wydown Blvd. on June 23, 2007, 01:43:09 AM
It makes me wonder... To make the most of the need-based aid. Hypothetically, so, do you recruit lots of poor smart kids or/and lots of rich smart kids? Or is recruiting the smart middle class student work as long as you cross your fingers and hope he gets an outside merit-based scholarship?

Dealing with factors including both the alumni and the image factor must be interesting. (Alumni factor being the donations back to the school's [athletic] budget; image factor literally being the image/perception of the school)

And then, if some of the other teams, outside of football, don't want to use all of their scholarship money (for whatever reason) do they follow that same thought process (ie: capitalize on the student/family income level)

I think its just like division 3 where you can call the director of financial aid and they can give you money if you ask for it.  You tell them you need the money or you kid wont be able to afford to go to that school and the school can simply give you the money (most schools have maximums for "school scholarships". 

It is "need based" but once the initial package is given (or especially if the kid is already enrolled) the financial aid office can basically do what ever they want.

You have to think the average american family that might make 50K-100K a year would not be able to afford 25K-40K a year for a school like Layfayette, Ithaca, Williams, Holy Cross or Curry.  So basically every single family within that kind of income/tuition bracket is most certainly going to need aid.

Im going to say that 90% of the Layfayette football team gets 20K knocked off the 40K tuition right away and then comes up with loans/grants with the rest of the 20K. (Or some of that 20K)

Wydown Blvd.

#902
So the need-based aid would be pretty liberal (like d3). However, at the academic elite d3 level, a lot schools use merit-based (and not need based) scholarships. But with the Patriot League, the scholarships can't be merit based. If your family makes less than 60,000 and you get into Harvard, you don't have to pay a dime -- as of 2006 with the middle-class initiative plan. But, is the system and formula that liberal for the Patriot League, probably not, although must be pretty liberal.

Based on the FAFSA and federal data, the upper-middle (60k-80k) class would basically have to pay about 10k a year. According to JU's standard of the middle class (50k-100k), the 80k to 100k range is expected to pay almost 20k. At most d3's there are merit based scholarships to assist that group who in reality can't afford to pay 20k a yr for college, but according to the Fed's they can.

(http://www.ed.gov/pubs/collegecosts/handbkp11.html)

The Estimated Total Cost of Education for 2007-08 from Lafeyette is 46k.

And a side-note -- The middle-class American household makes about between like 40k and 50k. The bottom 20% make less than 20k. The top 20% make above 100k. Our ideas of classes are slightly different. If you recruit a low-income kid (under 20k) the "feds pay for everything." If your recruit a rich kid, the "parents pay for everything."

But, my point was just that need-based scholarships for football generate a different thought in recruitment -- one that can also be based in socioeconomic recruitment strategies.

Jonny Utah

I think any school can give merit based aid if they want to (academic scholorships) but the school has to make sure that those scholarships are consistant with the general student population, especially at d1 where schools have compliance officers (eg, Leigh has 20 kids getting full rides on "science" scholorships) probably a violation of NCAA rules.

But once that FAFSA stuff is out of the way the schools can give out aid as they seem fit. 

And if you live in Boston or New York and both parents are teachers (combined 100K a year) you might be (and are in the FAFSA) in the upper class bracket, but still would have no way to afford a 46K education. (average houses in those areas are 500K+)  So parents can show mortgage payments etc in order to get more aid after those FAFSA forms are done.

But to respond to your point about recruiting, from what I have learned from seeing many kids go those these schools is that the income is at the bottom of the list in priorities in recruiting kids.  Schools try to get the best players first and getting them into the schools, and then worry about the aid after.

bill

Although this isn't the direction that I thought this thread was going, I'll try and tie it all together -

One thing that the Ivy's and Patriots do is share their admissions and financial aid information. (Within each league, not across league)
For example, if Holy Cross wants to know how Lafayette got player "X" into school, they can see that - it's reported, financial aid included.
Along with the AI, admissions and aid are very transparent.

I think that's what has gotten quite a bit of D3 in a fuss - Schools not wanting to be associated with one another, and lots of finger pointing about aid packages and admissions standards...
"To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day."

Pat Coleman

Quote from: bill on June 23, 2007, 10:16:36 PM
I think that's what has gotten quite a bit of D3 in a fuss - Schools not wanting to be associated with one another, and lots of finger pointing about aid packages and admissions standards...

I definitely agree there. I've been hearing about it for more than a decade, so I'm sure there was debate about such things before that.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Wydown Blvd.

Yeah sorry for the side-bar. The digression was just investigating socioeconomic diversity in non-scholarship d1. Well heres a d3 connection: For example, Amherst (maybe 3 or 4 years ago?) started a socioeconomic diversity initiative based on family background. Therefore, not only is admission need-blind, but they academically recruit. I know that not all schools can be need-blind. If school-wide scholarship initiatives move towards this, in non-scholarship football (both d1 and d3), it would be easy for a team to reflect the financial aid of a diverse group.

Quote from: bill on June 23, 2007, 10:16:36 PM
One thing that the Ivy's and Patriots do is share their admissions and financial aid information. (Within each league, not across league)
For example, if Holy Cross wants to know how Lafayette got player "X" into school, they can see that - it's reported, financial aid included.
Along with the AI, admissions and aid are very transparent.

That's great. And in turn, makes the league more competitive.

frank uible

But not so great for the prospective students since the colleges are not competing for them at the admissions office as vigorously as they otherwise might be.

Wydown Blvd.

With a lack of transparency then a coach competes for a prospect in the admissions office more aggressively? I don't get it.

Instead, using transparency, I think the Coach A knows what Coach B offers and can offer a similar package. And, hypothetically (in the d3 league tradition), School A and School B in League X are compatible schools anyway. Of the student belongs in the league, he/she will get in the school.

Of course it seems that the problems of d3 are between leagues and not within the league anyway...

kate

Could someone please tell me in the name of academia, why in the world would any school not "want to associate with an other institution"?   How many of these D-3 student athletes go pro anyway?  Especially in division three, the purpose of sports should be to have a great athletic experience to suplement your academic endeavors - to me, to form an athletic conference because you feel superior to your counterparts in other D-3 schools is in a word "Crazy".   Just my opinion, folks

Warren Thompson

#910
Quote from: kate on June 24, 2007, 10:12:24 PM
Could someone please tell me in the name of academia, why in the world would any school not "want to associate with an other institution"?   

Kate, believe it. It's a fact of life in academe.

The chief "offenders" -- if that's the proper term -- commonly are college presidents, often possessed with a gratuitously bloated sense of institutional excellence.

The Centennial Conference was formed, initially for football only, because certain presidents no longer wished to associate with the allegedly [academically] inferior venues in the Middle Atlantic Conference. (The cynic in me says that they were also weary of lopsided gridiron losses to Middle Atlantic teams.  ;))

frank uible

Wydown: Competing by way of financial aid packages. If School A knows that School B is offering Joe Spitzfix a financial aid package worth X and if School A wants Joe badly, then School A may offer Joe a financial aid package worth X+1 and be fairly sure of getting Joe over School B - other things being equal. If School A doesn't have that knowledge, if School A nonetheless wants Joe badly and if School A only knows School B is possibly interested in Joe but does not know the value of any financial aid package which School B is offering Joe, then School A may offer Joe a financial aid package worth X+5 in the hope of securing Joe for School A over School B, and consequently the non-transparent system would have produced a superior offer from School A for Joe.

Jonny Utah

Im pretty sure schools dont call each other during the FA process to see which kids are getting what package.  From friends of mine that played and coached at Holy Cross, the schools know for a fact after, but during the recruiting process there is not that much FA competing/changing that we seem to think here.

But I do remember a kid that was looking at a certain Patriot league school in PA, and he when he went to that school and told them that he was now looking at another Patriot league school, the coach was so angry that he started to yell at the kid right there and basically told the kid he was doing the wrong thing as the school had already gotten him in and all that.  It was ugly.

kate

Now you're talking Warren :)!

union89

Quote from: JU on June 25, 2007, 11:19:34 AM
Im pretty sure schools dont call each other during the FA process to see which kids are getting what package.  From friends of mine that played and coached at Holy Cross, the schools know for a fact after, but during the recruiting process there is not that much FA competing/changing that we seem to think here.

But I do remember a kid that was looking at a certain Patriot league school in PA, and he when he went to that school and told them that he was now looking at another Patriot league school, the coach was so angry that he started to yell at the kid right there and basically told the kid he was doing the wrong thing as the school had already gotten him in and all that.  It was ugly.


Utah, when I was getting recruited, I visited WPI.  At the time, the Engineers head coach was a guy named Bob Weiss.  He pulled the same act with me and a number of guys who also attended Union.  During one of the recruiting visits, a player told Coach Weiss that he was also looking at Union.  A couple  minutes later, Weiss got up from behind his desk and said he had to go to the bathroom to, "take a Union."  A bunch of Union alums from that era still use that phrase as a joke to this day.

My sophomore year, I blew out my knee, had surgery, and was on crutches on the sideline for the Union/WPI game.  Coach Weiss ran by me at half-time and laughed, telling me, I looked good.  Many more very classless stories about that guy.