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Division III football (Post Patterns) => General football => Topic started by: HScoach on October 26, 2008, 11:11:24 AM

Title: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on October 26, 2008, 11:11:24 AM
The discussion of brackets came up on the CCIW page and I thought it would be interesting to start the discussion on a national basis with the season winding down.  Obviously a lot could and will change over the last 3 weeks, but I think it's never too early to start thinking about Week 11.


Quote from: Matilda on October 25, 2008, 11:20:54 PM
With NCC's win tonight, it makes me wonder where they will land in the polls...now I know the polls don't mean diddally-poo and that they are just something for fans and former players to brag about BUT.........

The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ranked teams go down today. There are two teams currently ahead of the Cards who did not lose today.  They are Wabash and Muhlenberg.
Could winning the little brass bell sling the cards at least to a number 3 ranking? We'll find out next time on d3football.com (tv batman theme music)

The D3 poll might not mean anything but if NCC can finish the season 10-0, they could easily be the #2 seed in the entire bracket behind Mount Union.  Or at worst #3.  Which after last year's shuffling of the teams in the playoff bracket would put the Cardinals as far away from MUC as possible in the brackets. 

Honestly I hope this happens because the CCIW champs have been a tough out over the years for the Raiders and I would like to see if they could make a run deep into the playoffs if they didn't have to meet up with MUC in the 2nd round as has happened so many times in the last decade.

With WWW and MHB both falling today, I would pick the following as the regional #1 seeds and the ranking of the brackets themselves.

#1  Mount Union (north)

#2  North Central (west)

#3  Muhlenberg (east)

#4  Mary Hardin Baylor or W&J (south) - I think MHB still has a chance because their loss is outside of D3
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 26, 2008, 11:18:17 AM
If Cortland St stay undefeated they get the east no.1
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: ADL70 on October 26, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
This discussion might be more appropriate after the Regional Rankings come out...Wednesday, I believe.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Schwami on October 26, 2008, 01:20:06 PM
The regional rankings will keep the teams in their natural brackets (North Central in the North, Muhlenberg in the South).

Of course, playoff seedings won't necessarily follow that model, as last year demonstrated.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on October 26, 2008, 01:24:01 PM
There are two many head to head match ups left.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on October 26, 2008, 04:17:37 PM
Quote from: hscoach on October 26, 2008, 11:11:24 AM
The discussion of brackets came up on the CCIW page and I thought it would be interesting to start the discussion on a national basis with the season winding down.  Obviously a lot could and will change over the last 3 weeks, but I think it's never too early to start thinking about Week 11.


:o  Coach, you don't ever speak such words in front of your team, do you?   ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 27, 2008, 04:18:23 PM
My best guess for the South Region right now is this:

3) Mary Hardin-Baylor at 1) Millsaps
6) Trinity at 4) Hardin-Simmons

8 ) ODAC winner at 2) Washington & Jefferson
7) Huntingdon/LaGrange winner at 5) AFCA Winner

UMHB and Millsaps are the only two ASC/SCAC teams that can play each other in the first round without a flight.  Because the AA didn't follow their own procedures correctly the last time both teams were in the playoffs, it led to a scheduling of a conference rematch in the first round (which is something the committee has said they try to avoid).  I'm sure they won't make that mistake twice, though, and it to me, a first-roung pairing looks inevitable.

I think the odds are good that either Muhlenberg or Washington & Jefferson will get shipped to the East Region, as hscoach mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: muledaddy on October 27, 2008, 06:47:28 PM

Gents,


ship the Mules if you must,  but only if we need a no 1 in the East...otherwise, let me get some payback with wesley in the South.......
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 27, 2008, 06:57:37 PM
Right now it seems unlikely the West region will produce 8 teams.  Last year the Committee selected 4 #1 seeds, then built 'regions'.  The North currently has the top three teams in the poll (and Wabash can't really go elsewhere - possibly South - while MUC seems unneeded in East or South).

My conclusion (though with plenty of football still to go): North Central (geographically, only about 15 miles less 'west' than Whitewater) may be 'imported' as the 'West' #1.  Comments?

[My hope is that IWU will render all this moot in Naperville Saturday, but even my 'green blood' won't reflect that in the pickems! ;D]

EDIT:  I just re-read hscoach's starting post - guess I'm not as 'outside-the-box' as I thought! :-[
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on October 27, 2008, 07:06:42 PM
Quote from: muledaddy on October 27, 2008, 06:47:28 PM

Gents,


ship the Mules if you must,  but only if we need a no 1 in the East...otherwise, let me get some payback with wesley in the South.......

Last time you were shipped to the East it didnt turn out so well, you sure you want to do that?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ryan Tipps on October 27, 2008, 08:12:17 PM
Quote from: Josh Bowerman on October 27, 2008, 04:18:23 PM
My best guess for the South Region right now is this:

3) Mary Hardin-Baylor at 1) Millsaps
6) Trinity at 4) Hardin-Simmons

8 ) ODAC winner at 2) Washington & Jefferson
7) Huntingdon/LaGrange winner at 5) AFCA Winner

UMHB and Millsaps are the only two ASC/SCAC teams that can play each other in the first round without a flight.  Because the AA didn't follow their own procedures correctly the last time both teams were in the playoffs, it led to a scheduling of a conference rematch in the first round (which is something the committee has said they try to avoid).  I'm sure they won't make that mistake twice, though, and it to me, a first-roung pairing looks inevitable.

I think the odds are good that either Muhlenberg or Washington & Jefferson will get shipped to the East Region, as hscoach mentioned earlier.

I think this illustrates how stacked the South is. All of the teams you've mentioned in your bracket seem like very logical and solid choices, and yet what's not included is the USA South's champ, which (whether it's CNU or Ferrum) doesn't seem likely to ship to another region. They'd have to fit in there somehow. Who else would get moved away? As was mentioned, maybe W&J in addition to Muhlenberg?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 27, 2008, 08:15:04 PM
Keith and I discuss one possibility for that in the ATN podcast, actually.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: CobberFvr on October 27, 2008, 08:21:28 PM
Regional rankings come out this week, yes?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2008, 09:04:31 PM
Yes.  Wednesday if the NCAA remembers that there is such a thing a Division III in time.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on October 27, 2008, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 27, 2008, 09:04:31 PM
Yes.  Wednesday if the NCAA remembers that there is such a thing a Division III in time.

Ron, you're too young to be so cynical.   ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 27, 2008, 10:37:57 PM
Quote
I think this illustrates how stacked the South is. All of the teams you've mentioned in your bracket seem like very logical and solid choices, and yet what's not included is the USA South's champ, which (whether it's CNU or Ferrum) doesn't seem likely to ship to another region. They'd have to fit in there somehow. Who else would get moved away? As was mentioned, maybe W&J in addition to Muhlenberg?

Good point, Ryan.  Thanks for catching my mistake. 

You're right, Washington & Jefferson could also get shipped either to the North or the East.  They're only 450 miles from Chicago, which is about as far west as they'd have to go...

But in my scenario, all that does is change UMHB from a 3 seed to a 2 seed--they'd still have to play Millsaps to save the flight.  I suppose the ACFC champ could also go East...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: voice on October 27, 2008, 10:52:34 PM
If the playoffs were this week I believe the Willamette would be the #1 seed in the West.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on October 28, 2008, 12:25:23 PM
I don't know all the reasons UWW got shipped to the North and MUC East last year but they ended up with the 2 best teams in the Stagg AND the top four teams with #1 seeds. I don't know who plays whom in the regional final but I would guess the committee wants the top 4 teams as well as the best possible Stagg matchup in setting their #1 seeds.

It seems very improbably WJ would get shipped North with MUC, North Central and Wabas all sitting there. I think the North and South are the strongest regions by a margin and sending a team from South and North to the East and West may make a lot of sense when it all comes out in the wash.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 28, 2008, 12:32:47 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say, USee...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on October 28, 2008, 12:54:34 PM
Quote from: Josh Bowerman on October 28, 2008, 12:32:47 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say, USee...

I would have responded to USee thusly:

Now who can argue with that? (http://www.killerclips.com/clip.php?id=137&qid=1869&PHPSESSID=4528a7b1c614a5911075c67ec6d83f0e) (Stay to the end--it's only 34 seconds)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on October 28, 2008, 01:16:58 PM
Quote from: Josh Bowerman on October 28, 2008, 12:32:47 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say, USee...

that wouldn't be the first time I have made no sense at all.

I had 2 different issues that were poorly communicated.

My main point was that the committee seems to be trying to get the true top 4 seeds in the right place (so that the top 2 potentially meet in Salem) based on last year's seedings.

My second point was that it would seem improbable (if my first point were in fact true) that WJ would be shipped North since the North and South seem to be the 2 loaded regions. So it would seem the East and West are likely shipping grounds and teams like MUC, WJ, North Central, and Wabash are on the edges of other regions and become likely candidates.

I am sure that all makes minimally more sense than my first post.  :-\
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 02:45:41 PM
With Mount Union, North Central, & Wabash all being in the same region & being 1,2, & 3 in the top 25, it would be crazy to keep them in the same region.  They could be possibly broken apart w/ Mount going east again, NC going west, & Wabsh in the north.  W & J could go a variety of directions, south or north as a two seed. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: d-train on October 28, 2008, 03:21:41 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 02:45:41 PM
With Mount Union, North Central, & Wabash all being in the same region & being 1,2, & 3 in the top 25, it would be crazy to keep them in the same region.  They could be possibly broken apart w/ Mount going east again, NC going west, & Wabsh in the north.  W & J could go a variety of directions, south or north as a two seed. 

Last years shuffling was a welcome surprize (though maybe not to the 'east' folks).

In 2005, numbers 1, 2, 3, 6 and 9 (according to this website's poll) were in the west bracket.
http://www.d3football.com/top25/2005/week-11

In 2003, we had numbers 2, 3, 4 and 9. Number 7 was moved to the north.
http://www.d3football.com/top25/2003/week-11
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: retagent on October 28, 2008, 03:24:36 PM
With the West being one of the, if not the, strongest region lately, I wouldn't be so quick to diminish that region just because there appears to be no standout. As was discussed in the Top 25 thread, Linfield (who I don't think anyone would argue is having a great year) and Willamette both beat So. Oregon while UMHB, who could be the best of the South Region, lost to them. I haven't checked any other games that might shed more light on the relative strengths, but I'm sure someone will pipe up.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the stronges based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the strongest based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
And who from the North has won a Stagg Bowl other than MUC?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the strongest based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
And who from the North has won a Stagg Bowl other than MUC?
UW-Whitewater who was seeded #1 in the north last year.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the strongest based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
And who from the North has won a Stagg Bowl other than MUC?
UW-Whitewater who was seeded #1 in the north last year.
Good point, altho' the brackets are no longer named by Regions, but by the Top seed in the bracket.

West Region teams have won in 1999 (Pac Luth), 2003 (St John's), 2004 (Linfield) and of course, 2007 (UW-Whitewater).
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:35:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the strongest based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
And who from the North has won a Stagg Bowl other than MUC?
UW-Whitewater who was seeded #1 in the north last year.
Good point, altho' the brackets are no longer named by Regions, but by the Top seed in the bracket.

West Region teams have won in 1999 (Pac Luth), 2003 (St John's), 2004 (Linfield) and of course, 2007 (UW-Whitewater).
Even a better point. ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on October 28, 2008, 05:07:09 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the strongest based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
And who from the North has won a Stagg Bowl other than MUC?
UW-Whitewater who was seeded #1 in the north last year.

Of course it depends on how far back you want to go but the North has won more Staggs than any other region by a margin.

North 20
West 8
East 5
South 1
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 06:46:01 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:35:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2008, 04:23:02 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on October 28, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
retagent- clarify how the West is strongest region lately?  Over the past ten years the west won 3 & the rest came from the north.  I agree one of the strongest based upon those numbes b/c 7 go to the north & 3 to the west & none to east or south, but other than that how are they strongest region lately.
And who from the North has won a Stagg Bowl other than MUC?
UW-Whitewater who was seeded #1 in the north last year.
Good point, altho' the brackets are no longer named by Regions, but by the Top seed in the bracket.

West Region teams have won in 1999 (Pac Luth), 2003 (St John's), 2004 (Linfield) and of course, 2007 (UW-Whitewater).
Even a better point. ;)
;)  Thanks!

The West has had champs from 3 conferences, too.  That is why I think that it is the strongest region.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on October 28, 2008, 07:55:59 PM
It's tough to grade the North overall because the only team that makes the Stagg Bowl (or the semifinals even) is MUC.  I think over the years there have been some Stagg Bowl caliber teams in the North that don't get there because they can't get by Mount Union...which is nothing to be ashamed of.  A handful of years ago John Carroll was placed in the East and made the semifinals...where they lost to Mount Union. 

I really like what the committee did last year by moving some teams around to different "regions"...I hope they keep that philosophy moving forward as the interregional mathcups that we get when they do are a nice barometer for discussions like this. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 10:07:37 PM
I think at this point it's probably tough to try to forecast whole brackets, because what's left to be decided -- knowing we have a committee who will take advantage of the ability to move top seeds -- involves so many moving parts that one region coming up one team short could shift the entire thing.

Or one team in one region could ... i.e. 5 deep south playoff teams could shift one to the West, which opens up a spot somewhere else, etc.

What might be more prudent at this point is to look at potential No. 1 seeds in each bracket.

North:
Mount Union
North Central
Wabash

East:
Cortland State
Mount Union
Muhlenberg

South:
Millsaps/Trinity
Muhlenberg
Washington & Jefferson

West:
Willamette
Occidental

I don't see UMHB as a potential 1 seed because there are too many unbeaten candidates in the south. Although the non-division loss won't damage them in a major way, it will be taken into consideration as part of their in-region record (or rather, as not part of it, same with the Southern Nazarene game). So if Muhlenberg is 10-0 in-region, Millsaps is 10-0 in region and UMHB is 8-0, guess who's the three seed?

If Cortland State wins out, I think they get the East seed. Same with Willamette in the West.

That leaves possibly three North unbeatens and three South unbeatens for two spots. Someone's not going to be happy.

If, say, Ithaca beats Cortland State (and DePauw Wabash let's say), then the door for Mount Union or Muhlenberg going East opens up, depending on who is stronger out of North Central or Millsaps/Trinity for the other seed.

Wouldn't you say?

Don't be shocked if you see some of these thoughts repeated in ATN :)

Stunning that for as many South Region teams as have made the Stagg Bowl there's only been one winner.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on October 28, 2008, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2008, 10:07:37 PM
What might be more prudent at this point is to look at potential No. 1 seeds in each bracket.

North:
Mount Union
North Central
Wabash

East:
Cortland State
Mount Union
Muhlenberg

I like the idea of MUC playing in the North and East.  Maybe if they have to split squad it everybody else will have a better chance.   :D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2008, 10:23:03 PM
More likely they would win the east and the north and end up facing themselves in the Stagg Bowl.   ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: retagent on October 28, 2008, 10:28:57 PM
I could be wrong, but with the exception of UMHB and Rowan, the two finalists have been Mt Union and a West Region team for the past ten years.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on October 28, 2008, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: retagent on October 28, 2008, 10:28:57 PM
I could be wrong, but with the exception of UMHB and Rowan, the two finalists have been Mt Union and a West Region team for the past ten years.

Bridgewater in 2001 (? I think) was from the south. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2008, 10:31:56 PM
Trinity (TX) in 2002, BC in 2003, UMHB in 2004.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on October 28, 2008, 10:34:18 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2008, 10:31:56 PM
Trinity (TX) in 2002, BC in 2003.

Yeah, 2003, that's it :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2008, 10:37:02 PM
No, you were right the first time.  BC in 2001, Trinity 2002, UMHB 2004.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on October 28, 2008, 10:39:11 PM
Oh, wow.   :D  I should have remembered since Bridgewater shouldn't have been there in the first place...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 12:03:06 AM
Quote from: pg04 on October 28, 2008, 10:39:11 PM
Oh, wow.   :D  I should have remembered since Bridgewater shouldn't have been there in the first place...

Even so it wouldn't have been a West Region team. :)

But yeah, how could an Eastie forget that one.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 12:06:23 AM
Quote from: retagent on October 28, 2008, 10:28:57 PM
I could be wrong, but with the exception of UMHB and Rowan, the two finalists have been Mt Union and a West Region team for the past ten years.

Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2008, 10:37:02 PM
No, you were right the first time.  BC in 2001, Trinity 2002, UMHB 2004.

True.

Also, there were West Region teams the years Mount Union wasn't in it, so ret ... you got all kinds of wrong coming out of that post. :)

1999 PLU 42, Rowan 13
and
2004 Linfield 28, UMHB 21

are both within the past 10 years.

But point taken.
UWW 3
SJU 2
Lin 1
PLU 1

is a lot of West representation in Salem.

Should I mention that UWW technically represented the North and MUC the East last year? :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2008, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 12:06:23 AM
Quote from: retagent on October 28, 2008, 10:28:57 PM
I could be wrong, but with the exception of UMHB and Rowan, the two finalists have been Mt Union and a West Region team for the past ten years.

Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 28, 2008, 10:37:02 PM
No, you were right the first time.  BC in 2001, Trinity 2002, UMHB 2004.

True.

Also, there were West Region teams the years Mount Union wasn't in it, so ret ... you got all kinds of wrong coming out of that post. :)

1999 PLU 42, Rowan 13
and
2004 Linfield 28, UMHB 21

are both within the past 10 years.

But point taken.
UWW 3
SJU 2
Lin 1
PLU 1

is a lot of West representation in Salem.

Should I mention that UWW technically represented the North and MUC the East last year? :)

Depends on how you want to parse it - to the NCAA they represented the 'MUC' and 'UWW' brackets (the North and East teams just came along for the ride). :D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 12:19:02 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 29, 2008, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 12:06:23 AM
Should I mention that UWW technically represented the North and MUC the East last year? :)

Depends on how you want to parse it - to the NCAA they represented the 'MUC' and 'UWW' brackets (the North and East teams just came along for the ride). :D

True. I mean they're still North and West region teams no matter what bracket they're in.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: retagent on October 29, 2008, 09:37:50 AM
As I said originally, it was my recollection, and that is definately subject to flaws. All the other stuff about UWW being sent to the another region is so much crapola, at least as far as my argument goes. Look at the REGIONAL rankings. Those list teams by REGION, not where they actually play in the playoffs. The only one I think I missed was Bridgewater in 2001.  :-[
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on October 29, 2008, 10:10:29 AM
Keith,

Just as there is a potential window to move MUC east (provided your scenario, or a similar one, occurs) I would think there is a similar chance North Central could be moved to the West as a #1 (if Willamette falters). A much less likely, but possible, scenario would be to move Wabash to the South. My only point is geographically these 3 North teams could easily fit elsewhere, giving the committee options.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on October 29, 2008, 10:30:53 AM
Quote from: USee on October 29, 2008, 10:10:29 AM
Keith,

Just as there is a potential window to move MUC east (provided your scenario, or a similar one, occurs) I would think there is a similar chance North Central could be moved to the West as a #1 (if Willamette falters). A much less likely, but possible, scenario would be to move Wabash to the South. My only point is geographically these 3 North teams could easily fit elsewhere, giving the committee options.

Boo to Wabash going south...unless they get the top seed and don't have to travel.  I can get around the North region pretty easily (even all the way to Cleveland and Wisconsin as I did last year), but trips to the Republic are probably going to be right out. 

The West is an interesting case.  Doesn't seem like the West will have enough teams to fill out its region.  Since Oxy and Willamette and going to play in the first round anyway (we all know that this is happening), one of those two teams isn't a viable #1 seed (that's an either/or situation).  NCC could reasonably go West as a #1 or a #2 depending on how the committee wants to see it (probably would grade out as a #1 as Willamette won't have 10 D-3 regional games).  I don't think this would upset the apple cart too much because in the West region final the chances are great that somebody is flying somewhere regardless of who is left and at that point I don't think it matters if a team from Oregon or California is playing a team from Iowa or Minnesota or Wisconsin or Illinois.  It's all the same difference really. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: The Forgotten Man on October 29, 2008, 11:00:22 AM
Where do you find the regional rankings once they are posted?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 29, 2008, 11:22:56 AM
On D3football.com. :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: @d3jason on October 29, 2008, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 29, 2008, 11:22:56 AM
On D3football.com. :)

Any ETA on those rankings? I assume that you'll do them on the daily dose like last year?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on October 29, 2008, 12:47:22 PM
Quote from: Conrad on October 29, 2008, 12:32:40 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 29, 2008, 11:22:56 AM
On D3football.com. :)

Any ETA on those rankings? I assume that you'll do them on the daily dose like last year?

Pat is usually pretty quick to post them on the front page but there is always a link in the left column on the front page for regional rankings.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 29, 2008, 02:35:31 PM
Regional rankings released.
http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/category/regional-rankings/
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bill McCabe on October 29, 2008, 02:55:44 PM
How about Willamette as the #1 team in the West?  They sound like they have an excellent team this year.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: The Forgotten Man on October 29, 2008, 06:23:47 PM
I know the only thing that really matters is what happens in head-to-head competition, so I am eagerly / anxiously awaiting the November 15th game matching up Huntingdon and LaGrange.

However, just for the sake of discussion, why does LC not get any love ???


Yes, I know that HC spanked LC the past two years, but that was when LC had only freshmen and sophomores.

What am I missing here? :-\
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Josh Bowerman on October 29, 2008, 09:44:52 PM
Keith--

FWIW, Millsaps can only go 9-0 in region.  Their game against Bellhaven won't count.  Not sure what that does to their potential as a 1 seed should they get by Trinity Saturday afternoon.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: jam40jeff on October 29, 2008, 10:20:11 PM
Trine ahead of Case in the North Region.  Puh-lease.  Was it their 1 point victories over 0-7 Hope and 2-6 Kalamazoo that impressed the NCAA so much?  I know Case's schedule has been easy so far (with the exception of Wooster) but every single one of their games has been over by halftime with the exception of the Wooster game, which was "only" 21-0 at halftime.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 10:35:17 PM
Quote from: retagent on October 29, 2008, 09:37:50 AM
As I said originally, it was my recollection, and that is definately subject to flaws.

Was just poking fun.  ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 10:37:18 PM
Quote from: Josh Bowerman on October 29, 2008, 09:44:52 PM
Keith--

FWIW, Millsaps can only go 9-0 in region.  Their game against Bellhaven won't count.  Not sure what that does to their potential as a 1 seed should they get by Trinity Saturday afternoon.

I fixed that in ATN. Which was posted before you posted this. (loses, but wins)

QuoteSo if Muhlenberg is 9-0 in-region with a win at Union, Millsaps is 8-0 in-region with a win against Colorado College and an NAIA victory, and UMHB is 8-0 with a 1-1 NAIA record, UMHB could be a No. 3 seed. The Majors and Crusaders also have a common opponent in Mississippi College.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2008, 10:40:00 PM
CoCo counts as in-region (same conference).  It's B-SC that doesn't (2nd year provisional D3).
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 10:59:57 PM
Quote from: jam40jeff on October 29, 2008, 10:20:11 PM
Trine ahead of Case in the North Region.  Puh-lease.  Was it their 1 point victories over 0-7 Hope and 2-6 Kalamazoo that impressed the NCAA so much? 

Actually it was their win over another regionally-ranked opponent (Franklin), giving it the same overall record and one more of those than Case.

That was an easy one. Right there in the criteria. ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 11:00:35 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 29, 2008, 10:40:00 PM
CoCo counts as in-region (same conference).  It's B-SC that doesn't (2nd year provisional D3).

I realized that when reposting.

Seems I have some fixin to do. :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
Quote from: Josh Bowerman on October 29, 2008, 09:44:52 PMNot sure what that does to their potential as a 1 seed should they get by Trinity Saturday afternoon.

Well, they would still likely end up with one more victory against a regionally-ranked opponent than either Muhlenberg or W&J, considering Thomas More would probably drop from 10 out if they lose, but Trinity wouldn't drop from 4 out.

If Thomas More beats W&J, it's not a 1 seed problem, but W&J probably also wouldn't fall all the way out of the RR.

I think Millsaps leapfrogs if they win. Trinity probably should too, but the jump from 4 to 1 is a little different. Must be some reason why Trinity was behind W&J this week.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on October 30, 2008, 12:00:52 AM
Quote from: USee on October 29, 2008, 10:10:29 AM
Keith,

Just as there is a potential window to move MUC east (provided your scenario, or a similar one, occurs) I would think there is a similar chance North Central could be moved to the West as a #1 (if Willamette falters). A much less likely, but possible, scenario would be to move Wabash to the South. My only point is geographically these 3 North teams could easily fit elsewhere, giving the committee options.

Yes, North Central is a geographic candidate to go West. Everyone Midwest who I can think of who's in the mix except Concordia-Moorhead (640 miles) is a bus trip. Even St. John's (482)

But No, because Willamette is not going to lose to Puget Sound or Menlo, so there won't be a need for a No. 1 in the West. I guess they could be a No. 2 there just as easily as in the North.

I don't see where Wabash to the South helps.

But yes, the committee has options, for certain.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
Trinity probably should too, but the jump from 4 to 1 is a little different. Must be some reason why Trinity was behind W&J this week.

Given how rotten both teams' OWP/OOWP are it's amazing they're as high as they are.   Records trump all, tho.  I'd wager the difference between the two in the rankings criteria was quite small.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on October 30, 2008, 12:24:11 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
Trinity probably should too, but the jump from 4 to 1 is a little different. Must be some reason why Trinity was behind W&J this week.

Given how rotten both teams' OWP/OOWP are it's amazing they're as high as they are.   Records trump all, tho.  I'd wager the difference between the two in the rankings criteria was quite small.

I have been confused by Trinity and W&J's seeds in the South, compared to Husson's no. 10 seed in the East, when Husson is 6-0 in Division III, with similarly rotten (though slightly better) OWP/OOWP numbers as Trinity and W&J.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 12:38:07 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 30, 2008, 12:24:11 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
Trinity probably should too, but the jump from 4 to 1 is a little different. Must be some reason why Trinity was behind W&J this week.

Given how rotten both teams' OWP/OOWP are it's amazing they're as high as they are.   Records trump all, tho.  I'd wager the difference between the two in the rankings criteria was quite small.

I have been confused by Trinity and W&J's seeds in the South, compared to Husson's no. 10 seed in the East, when Husson is 6-0 in Division III, with similarly rotten (though slightly better) OWP/OOWP numbers as Trinity and W&J.

7-0 (6-0 in Region) with crappy OWP/OOWP >>> 6-2 (6-0 in Region) with crappy OWP/OOWP, even if the two losses come against non-D3 competition and don't factor into OWP/OOWP.  Same thing happened to UMHB with their only loss to a non-D3 team.

Maybe I should have said "overall record trumps all."  ;)  At least the NCAA says so.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on October 30, 2008, 12:49:17 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 12:38:07 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on October 30, 2008, 12:24:11 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 30, 2008, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 29, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
Trinity probably should too, but the jump from 4 to 1 is a little different. Must be some reason why Trinity was behind W&J this week.

Given how rotten both teams' OWP/OOWP are it's amazing they're as high as they are.   Records trump all, tho.  I'd wager the difference between the two in the rankings criteria was quite small.

I have been confused by Trinity and W&J's seeds in the South, compared to Husson's no. 10 seed in the East, when Husson is 6-0 in Division III, with similarly rotten (though slightly better) OWP/OOWP numbers as Trinity and W&J.

7-0 (6-0 in Region) with crappy OWP/OOWP >>> 6-2 (6-0 in Region) with crappy OWP/OOWP, even if the two losses come against non-D3 competition and don't factor into OWP/OOWP.  Same thing happened to UMHB with their only loss to a non-D3 team.

Maybe I should have said "overall record trumps all."  ;)  At least the NCAA says so.


Maybe you should have said "geebnorf buzzlequig."  :P I think that would make more sense to me.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on October 30, 2008, 02:15:06 AM
Quote from: jam40jeff on October 29, 2008, 10:20:11 PM
Trine ahead of Case in the North Region.  Puh-lease.  Was it their 1 point victories over 0-7 Hope and 2-6 Kalamazoo that impressed the NCAA so much?  I know Case's schedule has been easy so far (with the exception of Wooster) but every single one of their games has been over by halftime with the exception of the Wooster game, which was "only" 21-0 at halftime.

It's the win over Franklin....wins over regionally ranked opponents count and probably count for more than close wins over lesser teams count against them. 

Quote from: K-Mack on October 30, 2008, 12:00:52 AM
Quote from: USee on October 29, 2008, 10:10:29 AM
Keith,

Just as there is a potential window to move MUC east (provided your scenario, or a similar one, occurs) I would think there is a similar chance North Central could be moved to the West as a #1 (if Willamette falters). A much less likely, but possible, scenario would be to move Wabash to the South. My only point is geographically these 3 North teams could easily fit elsewhere, giving the committee options.

Yes, North Central is a geographic candidate to go West. Everyone Midwest who I can think of who's in the mix except Concordia-Moorhead (640 miles) is a bus trip. Even St. John's (482)

But No, because Willamette is not going to lose to Puget Sound or Menlo, so there won't be a need for a No. 1 in the West. I guess they could be a No. 2 there just as easily as in the North.

I think this is a better way of saying what I was trying to convey in an earlier post about NCC going West...whether Willamette is #1 or NCC is #1 wouldn't matter here because somebody is flying somewhere (matters to the home fan bases, but not the NCAA).  In the interest of balancing brackets this seems like a good idea.  Today.  This could all change sometime in the next three weeks and probably will.  Every time this year that we think we know what's going to happen, we get craziness (week 7 which was supposed to be a quiet week after the giant week 6 and obviously week 8 where three of the top four lost).  But the uncertainty and speculation is what makes these last three weeks so much fun.  Can't wait to see how it plays out. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: ADL70 on October 30, 2008, 09:04:05 AM
Just how does the NCAA determine a win over a regionally-ranked opponent before there are regional rankings?  Do they determine the top eight based on the other criteria and use that last one to further order them?  Or could a team that was ninth based on the other criteria become a top eight team by virtue of a win over a team ranked above it?  And does that opponent have to be an in-region team?  Can a never ending re-ordering take place if that final criterion knocks a team out of being ranked thus affecting other teams rankings?

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: bbaddict on October 30, 2008, 02:11:17 PM
Is it really that complicated or does it involve, say, a board and some pointy objects.  Or just standing at the top of the stairs & throwing a copy of each team's program in the air.  Top landers get the top rankings and such.    :D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: muledaddy on October 31, 2008, 06:30:29 PM

Gents,

If Trinity wins over Millsap, and Muhlenberg beats Dickinson, do the Mules hold their regional position
and ranking for purposes of playoffs, or not?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2008, 12:08:26 AM
Quote from: muledaddy on October 31, 2008, 06:30:29 PMGents,

If Trinity wins over Millsap, and Muhlenberg beats Dickinson, do the Mules hold their regional position and ranking for purposes of playoffs, or not?

Good question. See below.

Quote from: muledaddy on November 02, 2008, 04:58:59 PM
Where do the Mules get a better shot at 3 home playoff games, by staying home in the South, or being shipped to the East?

Well if we assume wins for the Mules and losses for RPI to Hobart and Cortland (to Ithaca) they could be the 1 seed in the East.

I think the South 1 seed is going to be Millsaps. By virtue of the win over regionally-ranked opponent, Trinity. Assuming they stay in top 10. Muhlenberg doesn't have any of those, but I also haven't speculated on the other peripherals (OWP, OOWP, etc.)

So I guess being a 2 at worst in either bracket is still a good bet for 2 maybe 3 home games, assuming you win them of course.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2008, 12:15:03 AM
Also repurposed from the top 25 board:

Quote from: K-Mack on November 02, 2008, 11:59:46 PM
Quote from: muledaddy on October 29, 2008, 11:12:30 AM
K-Mack,

...where do the Mules fit in the playoff picture... do we leave them home in the South or move them to the East, and why? This assumes, solely for the sake of discussion, that they are successful in running the gauntlet in these last 3 games of the regular season, 2 of which are away games against real quality opponents, leading to a 2nd straight undefeated regular season. 10 of 11 offensive starters from last year are back, as are 6 of 11 defenders. what seed, which area, and why?

I think Muhlenberg is a "swing team" as far as which region they'll be placed in, and here's why:

if Cortland State beats Ithaca, the East won't need a 1 seed shipped in (i.e. Mount Union). But if they fall short on teams, and the South is loaded (3 Texas teams, Millsaps, Huntingdon or LaGrange, ODAC champ, USAC champ) then either Wesley or Muhlenberg could move. Maybe host a MAC team in the first round. Same deal with sending W&J to the North if they are a Pool C.

Anyway, lots of time to sort that out

More on that theory now that I have posited that Millsaps will be the No. 1 in the South.

Two things to look for: Does the East need a viable No. 1 seed, and if so does Muhlenberg deserve it, or does Mount Union deserve it and another team like North Central or Wabash deserve the No. 1 in the North. (perhaps even NC in the West if Willamette were to lose)

If Cortland finishes strong, and the Montclair/Rowan winner does too, one can assume they will have two wins over RROs (new acronym for regionally ranked opponents), assuming Ithaca also stays on the board.

At worst it looks like No. 2 in the South.

But so much left to sort out, and one change in one place can topple the house of dominoes.

The thing I like is if this year's committee is like last year's, they will look to find the most fair matchups possible, even if they have to let teams cross regional lines to make the four brackets.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 03, 2008, 12:24:31 AM
Quote from: cwru70 on October 30, 2008, 09:04:05 AM
Just how does the NCAA determine a win over a regionally-ranked opponent before there are regional rankings?

They don't.

"They" in this case is not so much "the NCAA" as it is the Division III selection committee, which is generally composed of pre-appointed coaches and ADs (some of whom have to recuse themsevles).

Quote from: cwru70 on October 30, 2008, 09:04:05 AM
Do they determine the top eight based on the other criteria and use that last one to further order them?  Or could a team that was ninth based on the other criteria become a top eight team by virtue of a win over a team ranked above it?  And does that opponent have to be an in-region team?  Can a never ending re-ordering take place if that final criterion knocks a team out of being ranked thus affecting other teams rankings?

Good question.

First off, remember the regional rankings come in sets of 10. The playoff brackets are sets of eight, but don't confuse the two.

The rankings can and will include non-playoff teams. They (I believe, Pat, Gordon or Ralph might want to chime in) do go down the other criteria to create a list which is then used to assign extra weight to wins by other teams on the list.

With regard to the creation of a never-ending cycle, creative thinking ... but I guess they create the regionally rankings, and then add that to the playoff selection criteria.

Also in this week's podcast Pat explains something about the playoff selection process we don't mention enough.

When at-large teams are put on the table, it's not all of them in a big group. They are ranked by region (perhaps already with the RRs) ... so one from each region is put on the table, then compared against each other. Say a North Region team is put in the field, then the next available North goes on the table with the S, W and E left from last time.

In theory this shouldn't affect a team's chances of getting in, it's merely so that the committee is only comparing four teams at a time rather than an unlimited number. Since the RRs already provide a list of where teams stack up against each other, it also leaves a "paper trail" to some degree on how the debate took place.

I suppose there's the possibility that for the final bid a team stacks up better than ... oh forget it, let Pat explain the Millsaps thing, he can do that better than me.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 12:52:04 AM
I made a quick run thru last week's regional rankings on the Pool C board.

The conferences that do not have a team in the Regional Rankings are the Middle Atlantic Conference, the Northern Athletics Conference, the USA South AC and the Iowa IAC.  Their Pool A teams earn the AQ.

I strongly believe that we will have no surprises of an at-large team making Pool C that we don't see in the November 12th Rankings.

Post #29--Pool C Board (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6060.29)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
First run at the brackets...

South Region

2) Millsaps (SCAC "A") vs 8 ) SLIAC Pool B either Huntingdon or LaGrange.
3) UMHB (ASC "A") vs 4) HSU  (Pool C)

1) Muhlenberg (CC Pool "A") vs 7) Catholic  (ODAC Pool "A")
5) Wesley (Pool B) vs 6) USA South (Pool "A")

East Region

If Cortland wins out, I think that they become the #1 seed in the East.

RPI (10-0) gets 2 games on that side of the region.

A 10-0 Muhlenberg gets to be #1 or #2 in the South with three or two home games.

You can move Pool B CWRU to the east.

1)  Cortland State
2)  RPI
3)  Rowan/Montclair  Pool C
4)  Ithaca
5)  Hartwick  Pool C
6)  CWRU  Pool B
7)  MAC Pool A
8 )  NEFC Pool A

We can juggle the matchups in the bottom half of the bracket to avoid conference foes in the first round.

North Region

1)  MUC  OAC Pool A
2)  Wabash  NCAC Pool A
3)  Otterbein  OAC Pool C
4)  Franklin  HCAC  Pool A
5)  TMC Pres AC Pool A
6)  Monmouth MWC Pool A
7)  Trine MIAA Pool A
8 )  NATHCON Pool A

West Region

1)  North Central CCIW Pool A  Moved into the West
2)  Oxy  SCIAC Pool A
3)  WIAC Pool A
4)  NWC Pool A
5)  WIAC Pool C
6)  Redlands SCIAC Pool C
7)  MIAC Pool A
8 )  Iowa IAC Pool A

Constructive criticisms and comments are appreciated.   ;)   
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on November 03, 2008, 02:20:35 PM
I think the east will be a complete mess.  Cortland still plays Ithaca, RPI plays Hobart, Rowan & Montclair St. play as mentioned, & if CWRU goes east they'll probably end up 10-0 which could give them some a higher seed in the east too. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: d-train on November 03, 2008, 02:32:51 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
First run at the brackets...

West Region

1)  North Central CCIW Pool A  Moved into the West
2)  Oxy  SCIAC Pool A
3)  WIAC Pool A
4)  NWC Pool A
5)  WIAC Pool C
6)  Redlands SCIAC Pool C
7)  MIAC Pool A
8 )  Iowa IAC Pool A

Constructive criticisms and comments are appreciated.   ;)  

I'm confused about the West...

Willamette topped the first regional rankings. Yet you have NCC coming in and two other teams jumping Willamette in terms of seeding?

I don't see Willamette any lower than #2 (to NCC) if they win out. They'll host Oxy, unless Redlands gets in. If Redlands is in, look for Oxy to host either the IIAC or MIAC champ with Redlands going to Oregon.

Monmouth is naturally in the West (#3 in the first set of rankings), so your prediction would be a move out to become a #6? Some of us are predicting they'll host a first round game in the "West"...but will have their hands full with someone like Whitewater. 

WIAC only gets two in if both Whitewater and Stevens Point win out. That seems likely for UWW. But Stevens Point has tough games and if they falter, Whitewater likely becomes conference's only representative.

Is Redlands a stronger candidate for a Pool C then Trinity, Wash. & Jeff., and others? They would have 'decent' wins versus Cal Lu, Chapman, and Whitworth. But the SCIAC doesn't rate very high overall. A Stevens Point loss would help them, but they are far from a lock for one of only 6 Pool C's.

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Toby Taff on November 03, 2008, 02:36:57 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
First run at the brackets...

South Region
2) Millsaps (SCAC "A") vs 8 ) SLIAC Pool B either Huntingdon or LaGrange.
3) UMHB (ASC "A") vs 4) HSU  (Pool C)

Please, not again. :P
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 04:05:02 PM
Thanks to d-train for the feedback.  Let's clean up the North Region before going to the West

NORTH REGION (Records are before Nov 1st games.)
1. Mount Union 6-0 7-0  OAC Pool A
2. North Central (Ill.) 7-0 7-0 Must beat Augie for Pool A
3. Otterbein 7-0 7-0  OAC Loses to MUC; gets Pool C bid
4. Wabash 6-0 7-0  NCAC Pool A
5. Trine 7-0 7-0         Beats Adrian; MIAA Pool A
6. Case Western Reserve 6-0 7-0  (I have shipped them to the East to fill that bracket.)
7. Wheaton (Ill.) 6-1 6-1  Second loss eliminates them.
8. Franklin 5-1 6-1  Pool A HCAC
9. Adrian 5-1 6-1 Loss to Trine will eliminate them.
10. Rose-Hulman 7-1 7-1 Lost to Franklin.

Unranked NATHCON Pool A bid.

Move Thomas More (Pres AC Pool A bid) into this Region as a #5 seed.
Wow!  That is a strong bracket at the top, but it does look cleaner!

Give home games to MUC, NCC, Ott and 'Bash.  MUC and Ott meet in the second round!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 03, 2008, 04:06:51 PM
Not if Otterbein is the three seed and Mount Union is the one. They'd meet in the quarterfinals if at all.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 04:07:43 PM
WEST REGION   (Record is before Nov 1st game.)
1. Willamette 7-0 8-0  NWC Pool A
2. Occidental 6-0 6-0    SCIAC Pool A
3. Monmouth 8-0 8-0  MWC Pool A
4. UW-Stevens Point 3-1 6-1  WIAC Pool A
5. UW-Whitewater 5-1 6-1     WIAC   Pool C
6. Cal Lutheran 5-1 5-1 Lost to Oxy 24-21.
7. Redlands 5-1 5-1  Pool C bid Must beat Cal Lutheran on Nov 15th.
8. Northwestern (Minn.) 5-1 7-1  Pool B candidate. Must beat St Thomas on Nov 15th.
9. Concordia-Moorhead 4-2 5-2   MIAC Pool A
10. St. John's 5-2 6-2 or MIAC Pool A

Iowa IAC Pool A
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: d-train on November 03, 2008, 05:10:42 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 03, 2008, 04:06:51 PM
Not if Otterbein is the three seed and Mount Union is the one. They'd meet in the quarterfinals if at all.

Otterbein isn't likely to stay at #3 are they? I'd assume they move up a slot or down a few based on their result versus Mount.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: d-train on November 03, 2008, 05:40:07 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 04:07:43 PM
WEST REGION
1. Willamette 7-0 8-0
2. Occidental 6-0 6-0
3. Monmouth 8-0 8-0
4. UW-Stevens Point 3-1 6-1
5. UW-Whitewater 5-1 6-1
6. Cal Lutheran 5-1 5-1
7. Redlands 5-1 5-1
8. Northwestern (Minn.) 5-1 7-1
9. Concordia-Moorhead 4-2 5-2
10. St. John’s 5-2 6-2

Ralph,

Several 'issues' to sort out in the West:

1) Who will win the MIAC and IIAC? (Though for seeding, I agree with projecting #7 and #8 for those two).

2) Will Stevens Point win out to claim the WIAC's Pool A? Whitewater seems poised to claim a bid - be it the Pool A or a Pool C (they might jump a team or two in the regional rankings as well).

3) Redlands as a Pool C? We'll see.

4) Northwestern as a Pool B? Maybe, but I think they'll lose to St. Thomas.

5) Import of teams if the West region only provides 6 or 7 teams.


My prediction and that of "The Roop" on the MWC board (limiting flights plays a big role here):

#3 Oxy at #1 (or #2) Willamette
#8 (or #7) MIAC Champ at #5 Stevens Point
#6 Whitewater at #4 Monmouth
#7 (or #8) IIAC Champ at #2 (or #1) North Central

A UWSP loss clearly helps Redlands' chances. If Redlands makes the field, put them at Willamette with Oxy hosting a game (maybe the IIAC or MIAC champ?).

I would think Whitewater as a (#4 or 5) Pool A is more likely to host a first-round game. But not necassarily because that might also open the door for Redlands to get in and Oxy to host (in addition to the likely import of NCC, who will host).
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: DutchFan2004 on November 03, 2008, 08:17:52 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 02:04:09 PM
First run at the brackets...

South Region

2) Millsaps (SCAC "A") vs 8 ) SLIAC Pool B either Huntingdon or LaGrange.
3) UMHB (ASC "A") vs 4) HSU  (Pool C)

1) Muhlenberg (CC Pool "A") vs 7) Catholic  (ODAC Pool "A")
5) Wesley (Pool B) vs 6) USA South (Pool "A")

East Region

If Cortland wins out, I think that they become the #1 seed in the East.

RPI (10-0) gets 2 games on that side of the region.

A 10-0 Muhlenberg gets to be #1 or #2 in the South with three or two home games.

You can move Pool B CWRU to the east.

1)  Cortland State
2)  RPI
3)  Rowan/Montclair  Pool C
4)  Ithaca
5)  Hartwick  Pool C
6)  CWRU  Pool B
7)  MAC Pool A
8 )  NEFC Pool A

We can juggle the matchups in the bottom half of the bracket to avoid conference foes in the first round.

North Region

1)  MUC  OAC Pool A
2)  Wabash  NCAC Pool A
3)  Otterbein  OAC Pool C
4)  Franklin  HCAC  Pool A
5)  TMC Pres AC Pool A
6)  Monmouth MWC Pool A
7)  Trine MIAA Pool A
8 )  NATHCON Pool A

West Region

1)  North Central CCIW Pool A  Moved into the West
2)  Oxy  SCIAC Pool A
3)  WIAC Pool A
4)  NWC Pool A
5)  WIAC Pool C
6)  Redlands SCIAC Pool C
7)  MIAC Pool A
8 )  Iowa IAC Pool A

Constructive criticisms and comments are appreciated.   ;)   


Curious why do you see moving Monmouth out of region and not WIAC pool C?  Similar location are they not?  Not much difference between a 5 and 6 either.  Just curious on why you move a pool A and not C.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 08:44:58 PM
After reading d-train's excellent critique, I moved Monmouth back over the West in my 3:07 pm post.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:11:57 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 03, 2008, 02:04:09 PMSouth Region

2) Millsaps (SCAC "A") vs 8 ) SLIAC Pool B either Huntingdon or LaGrange.
3) UMHB (ASC "A") vs 4) HSU  (Pool C)

1) Muhlenberg (CC Pool "A") vs 7) Catholic  (ODAC Pool "A")
5) Wesley (Pool B) vs 6) USA South (Pool "A")

Wow, no time to respond to everything on this thread today, but does anyone besides me think Millsaps' win over a regionally-ranked opponent in Trinity perhaps moves them ahead of Muhlenberg in the south, which was the SR No. 1 last week before the Trinity game but has no RRO on its sked?

D-Train's post was very good.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:46:45 AM
Ralph, seems like the seeds in your initial projection were heavily based on conference strength, or perhaps (O)OWP ... which is very D3football.com, but the committee has seemed to reward unbeaten teams with home games.

I would not be surprised to see Monmouth play at home in the first round. Also, even for Case Western's awful schedule, if they were moved to the East and the East got considerably weaker with Cortland and RPI losses, I could see CWRU playing a home game.

Lot of options this year with

Also maybe UMHB to Millsaps if UMHB is 4 or lower, and Trinity (if they make it) to HSU? Pool C teams have hosted.

I guess SLIAC is the natural match for Millsaps by geography and seed if in fact their champion makes it.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 04, 2008, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:11:57 AM

Wow, no time to respond to everything on this thread today, but does anyone besides me think Millsaps' win over a regionally-ranked opponent in Trinity perhaps moves them ahead of Muhlenberg in the south, which was the SR No. 1 last week before the Trinity game but has no RRO on its sked?


I'm with you on this one.  Millsaps has a signature win, whereas Muhlenberg is struggling to beat poor teams.

Niether team has the reputation of being a consistent national contender, so the committee has nothing to go on other than the results of this season. 

An undefeated Mount Union, Whitewater or St John's has the name recognition to hold down a #1 seed without a win over a regionally ranked opponent.  Mary Harding Baylor could probably be put in that group too, but Millsaps and Muhlenberg don't have that historal benefit yet.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 04, 2008, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:46:45 AM
Ralph, seems like the seeds in your initial projection were heavily based on conference strength, or perhaps (O)OWP ... which is very D3football.com, but the committee has seemed to reward unbeaten teams with home games.

I would not be surprised to see Monmouth play at home in the first round. Also, even for Case Western's awful schedule, if they were moved to the East and the East got considerably weaker with Cortland and RPI losses, I could see CWRU playing a home game.

Lot of options this year with

Also maybe UMHB to Millsaps if UMHB is 4 or lower, and Trinity (if they make it) to HSU? Pool C teams have hosted.

I guess SLIAC is the natural match for Millsaps by geography and seed if in fact their champion makes it.
Thanks for the response...

We get cynical down here this time of year, for several reasons.

"Geographic proximity" is why I think that we will see the pairings that we will.

Please see Post 149 on the South Region Fan Poll. (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5902.149)  D3football.com Top 25 and the NCAA Regional Rankings are operationally defined as two different entities.  In some ways, it's like comparing apples and turnips.  However, the differences are readily apparent.

Also "O/OWP" locks UMHB into the .500 range because they could not find two D3 in-region non-conference opponents.

Analysis on non-conference in-region results for the ASC and SCAC (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6060.msg969577#msg969577)

You can see how the geographic "non-proximity" of the ASC and the SCAC to the rest of D3 ties the  OWP/OOWP to .500.  The ASC has had resorted to playing NAIA schools and doubling up (TLU-SRSU) because of lack of D3 schools in a reasonable distance.

I have not seen the NCAA list, but I would guess that the highest OWP/OOWP's that we see amongst the regionally ranked teams are found in the upstate NY region, the CCIW in the Mid-Atlantic region.  These are conferences with only 7 or 8 members and where you can build the OWP/OOWP amongst all of the conference members on the weaker opponents in the area.  (I will be glad if/when we can see the NCAA's OWP/OOWP numbers as suggested in the Jan 2009 NCAA Legislation.)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 04, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 04, 2008, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:11:57 AM

Wow, no time to respond to everything on this thread today, but does anyone besides me think Millsaps' win over a regionally-ranked opponent in Trinity perhaps moves them ahead of Muhlenberg in the south, which was the SR No. 1 last week before the Trinity game but has no RRO on its sked?


I'm with you on this one.  Millsaps has a signature win, whereas Muhlenberg is struggling to beat poor teams.

Niether team has the reputation of being a consistent national contender, so the committee has nothing to go on other than the results of this season

An undefeated Mount Union, Whitewater or St John's has the name recognition to hold down a #1 seed without a win over a regionally ranked opponent.  Mary Harding Baylor could probably be put in that group too, but Millsaps and Muhlenberg don't have that historal benefit yet.

I think you're right about the analysis of this year's results.

But as I read the Selection Criteria, that's all the Selection Committee is permitted to use when ranking and seeding teams.  I'd be concerned if they were using reputation and name recognition to rank teams.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 04, 2008, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 04, 2008, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:11:57 AM

Wow, no time to respond to everything on this thread today, but does anyone besides me think Millsaps' win over a regionally-ranked opponent in Trinity perhaps moves them ahead of Muhlenberg in the south, which was the SR No. 1 last week before the Trinity game but has no RRO on its sked?


I'm with you on this one.  Millsaps has a signature win, whereas Muhlenberg is struggling to beat poor teams.

Niether team has the reputation of being a consistent national contender, so the committee has nothing to go on other than the results of this season

An undefeated Mount Union, Whitewater or St John's has the name recognition to hold down a #1 seed without a win over a regionally ranked opponent.  Mary Harding Baylor could probably be put in that group too, but Millsaps and Muhlenberg don't have that historal benefit yet.

I think you're right about the analysis of this year's results.

But as I read the Selection Criteria, that's all the Selection Committee is permitted to use when ranking and seeding teams.  I'd be concerned if they were using reputation and name recognition to rank teams.



I'd be concerned if they didn't factor history into the equation. 

I don't care what the OWP/OOWP says in any one year, but history says Mount Union will be the top team in the North Region.  When you have to go back to 1994 to find a season where Mount didn't win the North Region, I think it's safe to say they're the top team in that region until proven otherwise.  Regardless what the regular season percentages/numbers say.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 04, 2008, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 04, 2008, 10:21:22 AM


I'd be concerned if they didn't factor history into the equation. 

I don't care what the OWP/OOWP says in any one year, but history says Mount Union will be the top team in the North Region.  When you have to go back to 1994 to find a season where Mount didn't win the North Region, I think it's safe to say they're the top team in that region until proven otherwise.  Regardless what the regular season percentages/numbers say.
Respectfully, be concerned.

I believe that you are discrediting the efforts of previous MUC teams at the time of the selection process.

We must focus on 1999 to date for the current process.  Every year, MUC has earned its seeding on its performance in that current season.

If history were a factor, then should not  the conference with the second number of D3 championships in the Pool era have been given an at-large bid for the playoffs in 2007?  (Northwest Conference.)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: johnnie_esq on November 04, 2008, 10:43:04 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 04, 2008, 10:31:22 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 04, 2008, 10:21:22 AM


I'd be concerned if they didn't factor history into the equation. 

I don't care what the OWP/OOWP says in any one year, but history says Mount Union will be the top team in the North Region.  When you have to go back to 1994 to find a season where Mount didn't win the North Region, I think it's safe to say they're the top team in that region until proven otherwise.  Regardless what the regular season percentages/numbers say.
Respectfully, be concerned.

I believe that you are discrediting the efforts of previous MUC teams at the time of the selection process.

We must focus on 1999 to date for the current process.  Every year, MUC has earned its seeding on its performance in that current season.

If history were a factor, then should not  the conference with the second number of D3 championships in the Pool era have been given an at-large bid for the playoffs in 2007?  (Northwest Conference.)

Ralph, you are forgetting one major part of the equation:  $$$

Last year's failure to give the NWC the at large bid could be seen as much about the NCAA not wanting to fly a team to/from the Pacific Northwest if they could help it.  There is no reason, given the strength of the West last year, that SJU deserved a home game even last year.  Yet they received one, even though the SOS and the regional winning records illustrated otherwise.

Last year's playoff selection and seeding taught me that the Playoff Selection was less about the objective criteria and more about the membership of the committee.  They have discretion to use the criteria in any way they want-- meaning they can give great weight to some factors and little to others.  This is good in that the committee can knock down teams that look good on paper but load up on patsies, while offsetting teams that play in tough conferences.  However, the danger comes when the committee does not apply the criteria consistently across the spectrum in a given year.

Last year, I feared the committee wandered too far into the latter territory.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 04, 2008, 10:52:28 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 04, 2008, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 04, 2008, 07:22:23 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 04, 2008, 01:11:57 AM

Wow, no time to respond to everything on this thread today, but does anyone besides me think Millsaps' win over a regionally-ranked opponent in Trinity perhaps moves them ahead of Muhlenberg in the south, which was the SR No. 1 last week before the Trinity game but has no RRO on its sked?


I'm with you on this one.  Millsaps has a signature win, whereas Muhlenberg is struggling to beat poor teams.

Niether team has the reputation of being a consistent national contender, so the committee has nothing to go on other than the results of this season

An undefeated Mount Union, Whitewater or St John's has the name recognition to hold down a #1 seed without a win over a regionally ranked opponent.  Mary Harding Baylor could probably be put in that group too, but Millsaps and Muhlenberg don't have that historal benefit yet.

I think you're right about the analysis of this year's results.

But as I read the Selection Criteria, that's all the Selection Committee is permitted to use when ranking and seeding teams.  I'd be concerned if they were using reputation and name recognition to rank teams.



I'd be concerned if they didn't factor history into the equation. 

I don't care what the OWP/OOWP says in any one year, but history says Mount Union will be the top team in the North Region.  When you have to go back to 1994 to find a season where Mount didn't win the North Region, I think it's safe to say they're the top team in that region until proven otherwise.  Regardless what the regular season percentages/numbers say.

Then there ought to be explicit selection criteria related to history, reputation, and name recognition.  Teams need to know how they're being evaluated.

I'm sure the players at MIT would be excited about a name recognition selection criterion.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 04, 2008, 11:05:13 AM
Good morning, johnnie_esq!

I thought the NWC omission was due to "East Coast Bias"!   :D

Others have given credit to the strength of the WIAC for the last "at-large team" at the table in the Pool C selection.

I covered geographic proximity and the Texas Sub-bracket on the South Region Fan Poll board.

Post 149 (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5902.149).
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pirat on November 04, 2008, 12:44:57 PM
Discretion did not come down on the side of the NWC last year. But the fact they played in one the weakest conferences in the country probably hurt them more.

But Hey, the NWC has looked better this year because their opponents have had better seasons and the NWC OWP has risen to the middle of the pack but it still leaves them behind the mid west and east coast conferences which is why I am thinking the only west coast teams that will make it this year are the conference champions as the same kind of reasoning applies to the SCIAC. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2008, 01:02:27 PM
Regional Rankings are out

http://www.ncaa.com/photos/schools/ncaa/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/Nov.pdf


EAST REGION

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0
2. Rensselaer 7-0 7-0
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1
9. Husson 6-0 6-2
10. Curry 7-1 8-1


NORTH REGION

1. Mount Union 7-0 8-0
2. North Central (Illinois) 8-0 8-0
3. Otterbein 8-0 8-0
4. Wabash 7-0 8-0
5. Trine 8-0 8-0
6. Case Western Reserve 7-0 8-0
7. Franklin 6-1 7-1
8. Adrian 6-1 7-1
9. Augustana (Illinois) 6-2 6-2
10. Wooster 4-2 6-2


SOUTH REGION

1. Millsaps 7-0 8-0
2. Muhlenberg 8-0 8-0
3. Mary Hardin-Baylor 6-0 7-1
4. Hardin-Simmons 8-1 8-1
5. Thomas More 7-1 7-1
6. Huntingdon 7-0 8-0
7. Trinity (Texas) 6-1 7-1
8. Washington and Jefferson 6-1 7-1
9. Catholic 6-1 7-1
10. Wesley 2-1 6-1


WEST REGION

1. Willamette 7-0 8-0
2. Occidental 7-0 7-0
3. Monmouth 9-0 9-0
4. Wisconsin-Stevens Point 4-1 7-1
5. Wisconsin-Whitewater 6-1 7-1
6. Redlands 6-1 6-1
7. Northwestern (Minnesota) 8-1 8-1
8. St. John's (Minnesota) 6-2 6-2
9. Gustavus Adolphus 6-2 6-2
10. Linfield 4-2 5-2
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 05, 2008, 02:07:18 PM
Obviously there is no way to predict what will occur over the last 2 games, but here's my highly un-educated guess on the regional #1 seeds based on what we know today.  This topic came up with a Mount Union fan that wondered if I thought they'd be shipped east again.  The following is my e-mail to him on the subject.  I'm posting it here because I thought it'd be interesting to see how much glue the rest of D3 thought I was sniffing when I wrote it.  Have fun shooting holes in my guesses:




Subject:  Mount Union to the East?

As long as Cortland State wins out, I don't think we'll get sent east as that region will have an obvious #1 seed.  If Cortland finishes strong, what I expect is for North Central to be shipped west as the #1 seed there.  Right now I think the regional seeding goes like this:

1.   North Region = Mount Union 

2.   West Region = North Central (Willamette is undefeated, but I'm not convinced they're #1 material and NCC is close enough to the rest of the west that it wouldn't be travel issue.  And with the logjam in the North with Mount, NCC and Wabash all 10-0, the North Region needs to ship someone somewhere, so I'm guessing it's NCC going west.  That would put the West Region seeding as North Central, Willamette and Whitewater as the top 3.  What I expect to be very close is whether the West or East Regions would be the overall second seed as region.  A 10-0 Cortland would have a slightly better resume than a 10-0 North Central, but Willamette would be a stronger #2 seed than RPI would be from the east.)

3.   East Region = Cortland State (obvious choice as an undefeated east team with a good resume after beating Montclair, Rowan and Ithaca.  If they can beat Rowan and Ithaca in back-to-back weeks, they're easily the East Region's #1 seed.  And might be the overall #2 seed behind Mount Union.  Where it will get interesting is if they lose to either Rowan on Saturday or Ithaca next week.  If that happens, see below as the only other undefeated team in the east would be RPI.....yuck.)

4.   South Region = Millsaps or Muhlenberg  (neither team has played a great schedule, but both are undefeated and at least Millsaps has beaten a 1-loss Trinity to help their standing, so I'll guess Millsaps gets the #1 even though Muhlenberg was ahead of them in last week's regional rankings.   Regardless of Millsaps or Muhlenberg, it is perfectly clear is that the South is by far the weakest region.)



If Cortland State loses one of their last 2 games, then I think the following:

1.   East Region = Mount Union ( I think Mount moves east because RPI isn't worthy a #1 seed in the east, especially with North Central, Mount and Wabash all in the North Region)

2.   North Region = North Central (this would be the best case for NCC as they get to stay in region, avoid Mount Union and not have to see any ofhte physical WIAC teams until the semi-finals at the earliest)

3.   West Region = Willamette  (without the logjam in the north, 10-0 Willamette gets the top seed)

4.   South Region = Millsaps or Muhlenberg 




Now that I think about it a little more, I think a 10-0 Cortland State would be the overall #2 seed ahead of a 10-0 North Central.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Knightstalker on November 05, 2008, 02:27:48 PM
HScoach, pretty good, but Cortland beat Rowan in week 2, they play Brockport State this week and Ithaca next week.  Neither game is a gimme for Cortland.  I agree if they win out they are the East #1 and #2 overall.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on November 05, 2008, 02:32:36 PM
hscoach, would Whitewater get seeded over Stevens Point in the west based upon head-to-head competition?  Other than that I agree w/ you fully on the #1 seeds, even though I'm skeptical about Cortland State winning both of their final games.  
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: d-train on November 05, 2008, 02:47:03 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on November 05, 2008, 02:32:36 PM
hscoach, would Whitewater get seeded over Stevens Point in the west based upon head-to-head competition?  Other than that I agree w/ you fully on the #1 seeds, even though I'm skeptical about Cortland State winning both of their final games.  
In addition to a S.P. loss, Whitewater would have to jump Monmouth and Oxy in order to be a #3 in the 'West' (behind NCC and Willamette as you suggest in your scenario). I think the committee follows the region rankings closer than you suggest.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: The Forgotten Man on November 05, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
Help me understand this ranking business.

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2008, 01:02:27 PM
Regional Rankings are out

SOUTH REGION

1. Millsaps 7-0 8-0
2. Muhlenberg 8-0 8-0
3. Mary Hardin-Baylor 6-0 7-1
4. Hardin-Simmons 8-1 8-1
5. Thomas More 7-1 7-1
6. Huntingdon 7-0 8-0
7. Trinity (Texas) 6-1 7-1
8. Washington and Jefferson 6-1 7-1
9. Catholic 6-1 7-1
10. Wesley 2-1 6-1

I know the only thing that really matters is what happens in head-to-head competition, so I am eagerly / anxiously awaiting the November 15th game matching up Huntingdon and LaGrange.

However, just for the sake of discussion, why does LC not get any love? ???

Both play in the SLIAC and have had fairly comparable performances against conference opponents. 

Both have played an NAIA team--HC beat a relatively inferior foe (Faulkner is 2-7) and LC narrowly lost to a ranked team (Shorter is 7-2, and ranked 21st).

Outside of the conference they have a common opponent (Maryville) which HC beat by 6 at home and LC beat by 24 on the road at Maryville two weeks later.

Yes, I know that HC spanked LC the past two years, but that was when LC had only freshmen and sophomores.

What am I missing here?  ???

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad for HC, but why disparity between them and LC?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 04:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Forgotten Man on November 05, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
Help me understand this ranking business.

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2008, 01:02:27 PM
Regional Rankings are out

SOUTH REGION

1. Millsaps 7-0 8-0
2. Muhlenberg 8-0 8-0
3. Mary Hardin-Baylor 6-0 7-1
4. Hardin-Simmons 8-1 8-1
5. Thomas More 7-1 7-1
6. Huntingdon 7-0 8-0
7. Trinity (Texas) 6-1 7-1
8. Washington and Jefferson 6-1 7-1
9. Catholic 6-1 7-1
10. Wesley 2-1 6-1  ERROR  3-1 in region

I know the only thing that really matters is what happens in head-to-head competition, so I am eagerly / anxiously awaiting the November 15th game matching up Huntingdon and LaGrange.

However, just for the sake of discussion, why does LC not get any love? ???

Both play in the SLIAC and have had fairly comparable performances against conference opponents.

Equal input. 

Both have played an NAIA team--HC beat a relatively inferior foe (Faulkner is 2-7) and LC narrowly lost to a ranked team (Shorter is 7-2, and ranked 21st).

NAIA games are secondary criteria.

Outside of the conference they have a common opponent (Maryville) which HC beat by 6 at home and LC beat by 24 on the road at Maryville two weeks later.

Margin of victory and/or site of the game are not part of the criteria.

Yes, I know that HC spanked LC the past two years, but that was when LC had only freshmen and sophomores.

Not a criterion.

What am I missing here?  ???

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad for HC, but why disparity between them and LC?

I think that there is not that much difference between #6 and #11.  Huntingdon has been close to the Pool B bids in the past.  LaGrange is still a start-up program.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 04:50:05 PM
EAST REGION

1. Cortland State 8-0 8-0  NJAC
2. Rensselaer 7-0 7-0       LL
3. Ithaca 6-1 7-1               E8
4. Montclair State 7-1 7-1  NJAC Pool C or
5. Rowan 7-1 7-1               Pool C (They play on Saturday.)
6. Hartwick 6-1 6-1              E8         
7. Hobart 6-1 6-1                 LL
8. Plymouth State 7-1 8-1    NEFC Pool A
9. Husson 6-0 6-2               Pool B
10. Curry 7-1 8-1 

MAC Pool A


NORTH REGION

1. Mount Union 7-0 8-0  OAC
2. North Central (Illinois) 8-0 8-0  CCIW
3. Otterbein 8-0 8-0  OAC Pool C unless it beats MUC on Saturday
4. Wabash 7-0 8-0  NCAC  Still has the Monon Bell game!
5. Trine 8-0 8-0  MIAA
6. Case Western Reserve 7-0 8-0  Pool B  UAA
7. Franklin 6-1 7-1  HCAC
8. Adrian 6-1 7-1  MIAA Plays Trine on Saturday  Pool C
9. Augustana (Illinois) 6-2 6-2   Plays NCC on Saturday Pool C.  Must win!
10. Wooster 4-2 6-2

Northern Athletics Conference winner


SOUTH REGION

1. Millsaps 7-0 8-0   SCAC
2. Muhlenberg 8-0 8-0  CC
3. Mary Hardin-Baylor 6-0 7-1  ASC
4. Hardin-Simmons 8-1 8-1  Pool C
5. Thomas More 7-1 7-1  PresAC
6. Huntingdon 7-0 8-0   Pool B  (Plays conference rival LaGrange on Nov 15th.)
7. Trinity (Texas) 6-1 7-1  Pool C
8. Washington and Jefferson 6-1 7-1  Pool C
9. Catholic 6-1 7-1 ODAC leader
10. Wesley  2-1 3-1 6-1  Pool B/C 

USA South Pool A


WEST REGION

1. Willamette 7-0 8-0 NWC
2. Occidental 7-0 7-0  SCIAC
3. Monmouth 9-0 9-0   MWC
4. Wisconsin-Stevens Point 4-1 7-1  WIAC
5. Wisconsin-Whitewater 6-1 7-1  Pool C
6. Redlands 6-1 6-1  Pool C  (Must beat Chapman and Cal Lutheran)
7. Northwestern (Minnesota) 8-1 8-1  Pool B  (Has game with St Thomas on Nov 15th.  Lots of love for Northwestern!)
8. St. John's (Minnesota) 6-2 6-2  MIAC Who knows?
9. Gustavus Adolphus 6-2 6-2  or MIAC or up to 4 other teams!   :-\
10. Linfield 4-2 5-2  Pool B (Keeping HSU in the mix.)

IOWA IAC winner



First 4 off the table...

Montclair ST/Rowan winner
Otterbein/MUC loser
HSU
UWW
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 05, 2008, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Typically, the regions have been ranked by the strength of the #1 seeds.  Not the entire region. 

If we look at the entire regions as published by the NCAA (ie, don't move anyone in), I'd still put the overall South Region no higher than 3rd behind the North and East.   The struggles of the MIAC and no undefeated teams in WIAC are hurting the overall West Region.   The West has to be 4th as an entire bracket if for no other reason than Monmouth is the #3 team in the West?  Monmouth?  Yikes.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 04:57:59 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 05, 2008, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Typically, the regions have been ranked by the strength of the #1 seeds.  Not the entire region. 

If we look at the entire regions as published by the NCAA (ie, don't move anyone in), I'd still put the overall South Region no higher than 3rd behind the North and East.   The struggles of the MIAC and no undefeated teams in WIAC are hurting the overall West Region.   The West has to be 4th as an entire bracket if for no other reason than Monmouth is the #3 team in the West?  Monmouth?  Yikes.
Yeah, well stated...especially good response to a "Cru-centric" poster from Texas who is looking at the tough Texas sub-regional!   :D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bill McCabe on November 05, 2008, 05:02:43 PM
Ralph, if Trinity gets in, do you see them hosting HSU and UMHB at Millsaps?  Any other scenario?  Could someone get shipped West?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 05:05:27 PM
Does Trinity benefit in moving up in the Regional Rankings if Thomas More were to lose to rival Mt St Joseph in the Bridge Bowl?

Thomas More comes off the table as a Pool A regardless.  Huntingdon comes off as a Pool B, if they beat HSC and LaGrange.

First Pool C's at the table

Otterbein/MUC loser
Rowan/Montclair winner,
HSU
UW-Whitewater

Who comes off and in what order?

After HSU comes off the table, and Trinity moves up, how good is Trinity at the table for those #4, #5 or #6 bids?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 05:08:13 PM
Quote from: Bill McCabe on November 05, 2008, 05:02:43 PM
Ralph, if Trinity gets in, do you see them hosting HSU and UMHB at Millsaps?  Any other scenario?  Could someone get shipped West?
How much money does the NCAA want to spend?
Muhlenberg must beat Moravian in the last week, too.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2008, 05:51:10 PM
Ralph, a clarification on the North - Augie has no chance of a pool C.  Another loss would be fatal, but if they win out they are the AQ.  Which raises the possibility (dreaded no doubt by other pool C aspirants) of a 9-1 NCC competing for an at large.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 05:54:05 PM
+1!

Thanks for clarifying that!  Augie knocking off NCC would hurt someone!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: d-train on November 05, 2008, 06:14:56 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2008, 05:51:10 PM
Ralph, a clarification on the North - Augie has no chance of a pool C.  Another loss would be fatal, but if they win out they are the AQ.  Which raises the possibility (dreaded no doubt by other pool C aspirants) of a 9-1 NCC competing for an at large.

Very similar to RPI/Hobart and Trine/Adrian. Other Pool C hopefuls would much rather see the favorite win their Pool A (and effectively eliminate the loser) than see them lose and join the Pool C ranks with just one loss.

Interesting to see Trinity above W&J. I think Ralph had those two reversed earlier this week when he said it might come down to Redlands vs. W&J. Lots of eyes on Eau Claire - Stevens Point this week. Also, Redlands' finishing games are fairly tough.

I was kind of surprized to see Linfield at #10 (in the West) above Wartburg or B.V. I think that's a 4-2 (regional D3) team over a 7-2 team? Where was that 'love' last year when Whitworth was the NWC champ, guys?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 06:26:14 PM
Thanks for the comments d-train.

I had W&J above Trinity because of the OWP/OOWP that W&J can "access" in that part of the country.  I think that W&J is losing its OWP/OOWP edge as the Presidents AC moves to 9 members.

We have a closed system in Texas.  I posted elsewhere that the ASC plus Trinity, Austin College and Millsaps are a closed "OWP/OOWP" system.  We cannot get too high above .500.  If the center of the ASC (as seen on this map (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5805.0)) is UMHB in Belton, then the 500-mile radius only has 9 ASC teams plus Trinity AC and Millsaps.  Please compare that to the number of teams in the 500 miles around W&J!

HSU has had to fly every year for Coach Keeling to get his team the competition that the Cowboys need!  He got Linfield (another team willing to travel), and UW-Lacrosse, a WIAC team desperately needing games!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: d-train on November 05, 2008, 06:14:56 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 05, 2008, 05:51:10 PM
Ralph, a clarification on the North - Augie has no chance of a pool C.  Another loss would be fatal, but if they win out they are the AQ.  Which raises the possibility (dreaded no doubt by other pool C aspirants) of a 9-1 NCC competing for an at large.

Very similar to RPI/Hobart and Trine/Adrian. Other Pool C hopefuls would much rather see the favorite win their Pool A (and effectively eliminate the loser) than see them lose and join the Pool C ranks with just one loss.

Interesting to see Trinity above W&J. I think Ralph had those two reversed earlier this week when he said it might come down to Redlands vs. W&J. Lots of eyes on Eau Claire - Stevens Point this week. Also, Redlands' finishing games are fairly tough.

I was kind of surprised to see Linfield at #10 (in the West) above Wartburg or B.V. I think that's a 4-2 (regional D3) team over a 7-2 team? Where was that 'love' last year when Whitworth was the NWC champ, guys?
Linfield gets HSU's 7-1 OWP!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2008, 06:40:04 PM
The only reason I can see that Trinity is above W&J was that it lost to a better regionally-ranked team, which seems kind of odd because when you think about it that already gets factored in with OWP/OOWP calculations.

Looking at the two teams, W&J has games vs 1-5 Bethany and 2-4 Waynesburg; Trinity vs 4-3 Centre and 4-3 Austin (in-region games only).  If W&J and Trinity both win out Trinity should also have a slight OWP advantage, miserable as both schools are in that regard.   Thanks to the Millsaps encounter, Trinity's OOWP is presently 60 basis points higher than W&Js (W&J's OWP is 17 basis points higher).  Maybe that disparity also factored into the seedings we see today.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2008, 07:56:13 PM
Quote from: Bill McCabe on November 05, 2008, 05:02:43 PM
Ralph, if Trinity gets in, do you see them hosting HSU and UMHB at Millsaps?  Any other scenario?  Could someone get shipped West?

As the higher (better) seed, HSU would host Trinity if the AA paired them up.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bill McCabe on November 05, 2008, 08:04:36 PM
Ron, you're right.  It's a goofy system if the 2nd place team gets a home game and the conference champion has to travel.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: The Forgotten Man on November 06, 2008, 09:37:46 AM
Thanks. I wasn't trying to say that LC was any better--they have a lot of work to do before they can say anything like that--just that their records are comparable.

I didn't know LC was ranked 11 and if you say that's pretty close to where HC is ranked, that's good encough for me.


Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 05, 2008, 04:33:07 PM
Quote from: The Forgotten Man on November 05, 2008, 02:55:39 PM
Help me understand this ranking business.

Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 05, 2008, 01:02:27 PM
Regional Rankings are out

SOUTH REGION

1. Millsaps 7-0 8-0
2. Muhlenberg 8-0 8-0
3. Mary Hardin-Baylor 6-0 7-1
4. Hardin-Simmons 8-1 8-1
5. Thomas More 7-1 7-1
6. Huntingdon 7-0 8-0
7. Trinity (Texas) 6-1 7-1
8. Washington and Jefferson 6-1 7-1
9. Catholic 6-1 7-1
10. Wesley 2-1 6-1  ERROR  3-1 in region

I know the only thing that really matters is what happens in head-to-head competition, so I am eagerly / anxiously awaiting the November 15th game matching up Huntingdon and LaGrange.

However, just for the sake of discussion, why does LC not get any love? ???

Both play in the SLIAC and have had fairly comparable performances against conference opponents.

Equal input. 

Both have played an NAIA team--HC beat a relatively inferior foe (Faulkner is 2-7) and LC narrowly lost to a ranked team (Shorter is 7-2, and ranked 21st).

NAIA games are secondary criteria.

Outside of the conference they have a common opponent (Maryville) which HC beat by 6 at home and LC beat by 24 on the road at Maryville two weeks later.

Margin of victory and/or site of the game are not part of the criteria.

Yes, I know that HC spanked LC the past two years, but that was when LC had only freshmen and sophomores.

Not a criterion.

What am I missing here?  ???

Don't get me wrong--I'm glad for HC, but why disparity between them and LC?

I think that there is not that much difference between #6 and #11.  Huntingdon has been close to the Pool B bids in the past.  LaGrange is still a start-up program.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:42:49 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Not only that, I'd take South No. 3-4-5 Wesley, UMHB and HSU over any potential 3-4-5 in the West or East.

Depth-wise, I place South after the North.

Now Thomas More, Catholic, CNU and Huntingon/LaGrange aren't going to to look too fancy, but the middle of the pack is way strong.

They might actually lose Wesley or Muhlenberg to the East.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 03:14:45 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 05, 2008, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Typically, the regions have been ranked by the strength of the #1 seeds.  Not the entire region. 

If we look at the entire regions as published by the NCAA (ie, don't move anyone in), I'd still put the overall South Region no higher than 3rd behind the North and East.   The struggles of the MIAC and no undefeated teams in WIAC are hurting the overall West Region.   The West has to be 4th as an entire bracket if for no other reason than Monmouth is the #3 team in the West?  Monmouth?  Yikes.

True, with respect to who will host semifinals, the strength of the No. 1 seeds matters.

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 06, 2008, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:42:49 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Not only that, I'd take South No. 3-4-5 Wesley, UMHB and HSU over any potential 3-4-5 in the West or East.

Depth-wise, I place South after the North.

Now Thomas More, Catholic, CNU and Huntingon/LaGrange aren't going to to look too fancy, but the middle of the pack is way strong.

They might actually lose Wesley or Muhlenberg to the East.


Wesley going to the east would be ironic since most of those teams are avoiding them like the plague
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Teamski on November 07, 2008, 09:03:01 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 06, 2008, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:42:49 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Not only that, I'd take South No. 3-4-5 Wesley, UMHB and HSU over any potential 3-4-5 in the West or East.

Depth-wise, I place South after the North.

Now Thomas More, Catholic, CNU and Huntingon/LaGrange aren't going to to look too fancy, but the middle of the pack is way strong.

They might actually lose Wesley or Muhlenberg to the East.


Wesley going to the east would be ironic since most of those teams are avoiding them like the plague



hehehehehe.....One thing I am happy about is the fact that if Wesley hits the road in the playoffs, that they should do pretty well considering all of the travel they had to endure this year.  It will be business as usual for the Wolverines.  ;)

-Ski
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: union89 on November 07, 2008, 03:03:35 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 06, 2008, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:42:49 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Not only that, I'd take South No. 3-4-5 Wesley, UMHB and HSU over any potential 3-4-5 in the West or East.

Depth-wise, I place South after the North.

Now Thomas More, Catholic, CNU and Huntingon/LaGrange aren't going to to look too fancy, but the middle of the pack is way strong.

They might actually lose Wesley or Muhlenberg to the East.


Wesley going to the east would be ironic since most of those teams are avoiding them like the plague

Wesley's only loss in '08 came at the hands of a team from what region again??
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 07, 2008, 03:15:49 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 06, 2008, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:42:49 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Not only that, I'd take South No. 3-4-5 Wesley, UMHB and HSU over any potential 3-4-5 in the West or East.

Depth-wise, I place South after the North.

Now Thomas More, Catholic, CNU and Huntingon/LaGrange aren't going to to look too fancy, but the middle of the pack is way strong.

They might actually lose Wesley or Muhlenberg to the East.


Wesley going to the east would be ironic since most of those teams are avoiding them like the plague

Join a real conference and you wouldnt have that issue now would you?

The E8 is going to have slot opened soon with Norwich leaving, get your school to join the conference so we can get you to shut up about the "east" ducking you...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 07, 2008, 05:21:10 PM
Quote from: Upstate on November 07, 2008, 03:15:49 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 06, 2008, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 06, 2008, 01:42:49 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 05, 2008, 03:14:36 PM
I don't see how the South Region is the weakest, unless maybe you are talking about the weakest #1 seed. Out of the 10 teams listed in the regional rankings, 8 of them are in the Top 25 according to D3football.com and 4 of them are in the Top 10.

Not only that, I'd take South No. 3-4-5 Wesley, UMHB and HSU over any potential 3-4-5 in the West or East.

Depth-wise, I place South after the North.

Now Thomas More, Catholic, CNU and Huntingon/LaGrange aren't going to to look too fancy, but the middle of the pack is way strong.

They might actually lose Wesley or Muhlenberg to the East.


Wesley going to the east would be ironic since most of those teams are avoiding them like the plague

Join a real conference and you wouldnt have that issue now would you?

The E8 is going to have slot opened soon with Norwich leaving, get your school to join the conference so we can get you to shut up about the "east" ducking you...
Seriously,

would the E8 travel that far (to Dover DE to maintain its AQ?

They go to Hoboken for everything else.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Teamski on November 07, 2008, 08:57:30 PM
Quote from: Upstate on November 07, 2008, 03:15:49 PM

Join a real conference and you wouldnt have that issue now would you?

The E8 is going to have slot opened soon with Norwich leaving, get your school to join the conference so we can get you to shut up about the "east" ducking you...

I think PA_Wesleyfan has a point.  Wesley had to play three non-division III teams with only 3 home games this year because they couldn't find anybody to play.  And you know what? Hartwick flat turned down Coach Drass when the Christopher Newport game cancelled.  Both Hartwick and Wesley had the same open date and both only had 9 games scheduled, and yet they declined a home game with Wesley.   Now how does that make the East look?  I sure hope Wesley gets in with the E8, NJAC or the MAC, because it will surely deal once and for all with the scheduling woes of Coach Drass and the Wolverines.

-Ski
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pumkinattack on November 07, 2008, 08:57:48 PM
I think the point is that it gets tiring to see people claim that entire regions are ducking a team.  I don't care about Wesley and would rather see Hobart play Ithaca, Alfred, a number of CC schools, Case and others before I'd care about a matchup with Wesley for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with ranking (I threw Case in because they are highly ranked now).  

The fact of the matter is that we all have longstanding traditions and share institutional philosophies and anyone who thinks that a schedule is created based on who's been ranked for a half dozen years is misguided.  Does that mean I don't want Bart to play the best?  No, but I treat the regular season as about everything that the school did before I got there and what its done for me and not about playing the school du jour - which changes frequently anyway.  I love the game against Dickinson - 17 years running, CMU was a nice change from Franklin and Marshall and if we go back to a tenth game and it was my call Wesley wouldn't be my first choice and not because they are good.  

So tell us who deserves to be dropped from east region team's schedules to make room for Wesley.  I think you'll find that Wesley isn't even on most schools radars for a number of reasons.  
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 07, 2008, 10:52:10 PM
Mount Union is looking for a season opener in 2010 and beyond.  If Wesley is so upset that the East keeps ducking them, you're always welcome to head north instead ;D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 07, 2008, 10:57:40 PM
Quote from: pumkinattack on November 07, 2008, 08:57:48 PM
I think the point is that it gets tiring to see people claim that entire regions are ducking a team.  I don't care about Wesley and would rather see Hobart play Ithaca, Alfred, a number of CC schools, Case and others before I'd care about a matchup with Wesley for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with ranking (I threw Case in because they are highly ranked now).  

The fact of the matter is that we all have longstanding traditions and share institutional philosophies and anyone who thinks that a schedule is created based on who's been ranked for a half dozen years is misguided.  Does that mean I don't want Bart to play the best?  No, but I treat the regular season as about everything that the school did before I got there and what its done for me and not about playing the school du jour - which changes frequently anyway.  I love the game against Dickinson - 17 years running, CMU was a nice change from Franklin and Marshall and if we go back to a tenth game and it was my call Wesley wouldn't be my first choice and not because they are good.  

So tell us who deserves to be dropped from east region team's schedules to make room for Wesley.  I think you'll find that Wesley isn't even on most schools radars for a number of reasons.  

Yes and we get tired of the insinuations that Wesley isn't on a par because of academics. The USAC tried to use that excuse a few years ago when the turned down Wesley and then found out that Wesley would be the second highest ranked academically.

 Upstate

  Fact: Ithaca and SJF both were approached and declined with open dates that both teams had before the schedules were set.

 Montclair was that school who beat Wesley and they agreed to play after the season had begun. I have no problem with the NJAC. Wesley has always  played those teams.

 I have no problem with the E8 either but stop telling us to go play some one, Wesley has tried.

 Last time I checked your  E8 may not  be a real conference either if they don't go begging for teams to join!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 07, 2008, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 07, 2008, 10:52:10 PM
Mount Union is looking for a season opener in 2010 and beyond.  If Wesley is so upset that the East keeps ducking them, you're always welcome to head north instead ;D


UWW and UWEC were so desperate for games, they played each other twice this season.  Tell Larry to call Wisconsin! :D

[Oh, great!  The Stagg can be a re-run of MUC/UWW every year! ::)]
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 07, 2008, 11:14:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 07, 2008, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 07, 2008, 10:52:10 PM
Mount Union is looking for a season opener in 2010 and beyond.  If Wesley is so upset that the East keeps ducking them, you're always welcome to head north instead ;D


UWW and UWEC were so desperate for games, they played each other twice this season.  Tell Larry to call Wisconsin! :D

[Oh, great!  The Stagg can be a re-run of MUC/UWW every year! ::)]

HScoach

Would that be an in region game?  Wesley needs them more.  And would Mount Union go to Wesley.   The E8 games wouldn't be in region either   ;) But I can't stop my self from lighting Upstates fuse  ;D And to think we both are SU bball fans LOL!!

Mr Ypsi

There was even talk about the ACFC playing each other twice. The only problem i see with Wisc and Texas games is the expense of traveleing year in and year ou
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: union89 on November 08, 2008, 01:06:40 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 07, 2008, 11:14:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 07, 2008, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 07, 2008, 10:52:10 PM
Mount Union is looking for a season opener in 2010 and beyond.  If Wesley is so upset that the East keeps ducking them, you're always welcome to head north instead ;D


UWW and UWEC were so desperate for games, they played each other twice this season.  Tell Larry to call Wisconsin! :D

[Oh, great!  The Stagg can be a re-run of MUC/UWW every year! ::)]

HScoach

Would that be an in region game?  Wesley needs them more.  And would Mount Union go to Wesley.   The E8 games wouldn't be in region either   ;) But I can't stop my self from lighting Upstates fuse  ;D And to think we both are SU bball fans LOL!!

Mr Ypsi

There was even talk about the ACFC playing each other twice. The only problem i see with Wisc and Texas games is the expense of traveleing year in and year ou

Huh?? 

Is Del. Val. not an Eastern team who is going to miss the playoffs.....

The guys in the NEFC don't make a lot of sense in their posts either....you should go over there and make non-sensical posts with them.....

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 08, 2008, 04:52:11 AM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 07, 2008, 11:14:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 07, 2008, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 07, 2008, 10:52:10 PM
Mount Union is looking for a season opener in 2010 and beyond.  If Wesley is so upset that the East keeps ducking them, you're always welcome to head north instead ;D


UWW and UWEC were so desperate for games, they played each other twice this season.  Tell Larry to call Wisconsin! :D

[Oh, great!  The Stagg can be a re-run of MUC/UWW every year! ::)]

HScoach

Would that be an in region game?  Wesley needs them more.  And would Mount Union go to Wesley.   The E8 games wouldn't be in region either   ;) But I can't stop my self from lighting Upstates fuse  ;D And to think we both are SU bball fans LOL!!

Mr Ypsi

There was even talk about the ACFC playing each other twice. The only problem i see with Wisc and Texas games is the expense of traveleing year in and year ou

E8 would be "in-region", if Wesley joins as an affiliate member.

MUC and WIAC are not "in-region".

Texas is South Region, too.  :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2008, 10:22:04 AM
HScoach

Would that be an in region game?  Wesley needs them more.  And would Mount Union go to Wesley.   The E8 games wouldn't be in region either   ;) But I can't stop my self from lighting Upstates fuse  ;D And to think we both are SU bball fans LOL!!


Did anyone else read this the same way that I did?  I forget who wrote what I'm quoting because of all the quotes on the message, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't hscoach.   ;) 

Would Mt Union go to Wesley?  Are you kidding?  Check their non-conference schedule since D3 has been a website.  Currently in a home and home with St John Fischer and exchanged home and home's with:  Washington University (MO), UW-Whitewater, Allegheny and Albion (when the latter two were well thought of). 

I'm just a neutral observer here, but I also think the Wesley people can leave St John Fischer out of any "they are ducking us" conversation as they've played both Salisbury and Mount Union this season.  Their non-conference schedule is brutal. 

I understand the frustration with only being able to play 3 home games and having another game cancelled due to the Hurricane but thats totally out of anyone's control.  As mentioned on here before, travel budgets are a legitimate concern and probably will be more of an issue as our economy is in the toilet right now. 

I'm sure many people realize the frustration you guys have right now...and its understandable, but some of you guys are really beating a dead horse right now.  Here's hoping some positive things happen with the Wesley schedule in the offseason, but calling out an entire region or multiple teams in the Regional Rankings is classless. 

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pumkinattack on November 08, 2008, 10:25:07 AM
PA Wes,

I didn't say anything about academics and I don't know anything about Wesley, so that must be coming from another place.  As I stated, there are a number of reasons its not a priority game.  Schools have a plan beyond let's just schedule a bunch of 1 and 1's randomly.  

The fact that Wesley was rebuffed in their suggestions does not mean a school is ducking them and that's a leap of logic that just sounds like a childish taunt that doesn't do your institution any favors.

Look, if anyone says go play somebody and doesn't understand your plight, that's not cool.  I can imagine that its tough with Wesley being somewhat isolated in Delaware and not having many shared experiences with nearby schools (note: this doesn't imply anything to do with academics, if that were the case why do Cornell and Hobart fight hard to maintain their 120 year rivalry in lacrosse - Cornell's IVY).  

I will note that I've seen Wesley supporters say (to paraphrase): "Well we can't join the NJAC because they have roster limits".  That's Marie Antionette-esque and doesn't help your cause.  Members of conferences often have to make sacrifices for the greater benefit of the collective experience they are and have created.  You can't dictate everything and expect anyone to listen or care, so if that's really the only hurdle then suck it up and join the NJAC or stop making claims you can't support but only insinuate.  
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 08, 2008, 11:36:07 AM
pumkinattack

I misread the date . And talk about bobilarsh  ;D I can get my full of BS in the E8 room. That's all everybody does over there is cry about how good they lost...

  You have to understand that I have always been a pundit of other teams playing Wesley .  Has nothing to do with the rankings really.. When they were a good team teams still wouldn't play them. And yes it's a matter of teams not playing them!!

As for the roster limit stuff. It is what it is. There is a lot of money brought into the school with those 75 extra players.

Ralph

I know Texas is in the south  :D Wesley can make one trip a year but they can't go to Wisc and Texas and then travel 12 hrs by bus somewhere  else. Though if I remember correctly they played in 6 different states in one year...Even bussed to Wisconsin one year. One comment and I get in sooo much trouble 8)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Teamski on November 08, 2008, 12:35:50 PM
Any which way, I hope that the off season does indeed come with some answers for the ACFC and Wesley.  It's getting harder each year for the Wolverines to fit into the playoff picture with the lack of regional competition. 

-Ski
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 08, 2008, 04:39:33 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 07, 2008, 10:57:40 PM

 Upstate

  Fact: Ithaca and SJF both were approached and declined with open dates that both teams had before the schedules were set.

FACT: SJF played MUC and Salisbury this year, dont tell me they're ducking anyone...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 08, 2008, 04:45:11 PM
Huntingdon lost to HSC.

Trinity lost to Centre.

UWSP beats UWEC 21-20, on a 28 yd TD pass with 0:06 left in the game!

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2008, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: Teamski on November 08, 2008, 12:35:50 PM
Any which way, I hope that the off season does indeed come with some answers for the AFCA and Wesley.  It's getting harder each year for the Wolverines to fit into the playoff picture with the lack of regional competition. 

-Ski

Well, does the SLIAC get an auto-bid in 2009? 

Ski, I'm glad you're not talking the same non-sense about SJF "ducking" Wesley.  Obviously if you don't like the color of the kool-aid, you don't drink it.  You are to be commended.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Teamski on November 08, 2008, 08:12:20 PM
Quote from: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2008, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: Teamski on November 08, 2008, 12:35:50 PM
Any which way, I hope that the off season does indeed come with some answers for the AFCA and Wesley.  It's getting harder each year for the Wolverines to fit into the playoff picture with the lack of regional competition. 

-Ski

Well, does the SLIAC get an auto-bid in 2009? 

Ski, I'm glad you're not talking the same non-sense about SJF "ducking" Wesley.  Obviously if you don't like the color of the kool-aid, you don't drink it.  You are to be commended.

Why would I do that, hehehe?  They played Salisbury.

-Ski
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2008, 09:06:32 PM
AND Mount Union. 

Its good to see someone "gets it" from the Wesley side.. 


You guys will make the dance, especially after what went down today with Trinity and Huntingdon, if you win out.  Hopefully the erases the nonsense about teams being scared to schedule WC.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 08, 2008, 09:21:12 PM
Quote from: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2008, 07:53:01 PM

Well, does the SLIAC get an auto-bid in 2009? 

2010
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 08, 2008, 11:03:19 PM
Ralph

If the pool C teams continue to lose next week what are the chances one of the B' s steals a C bid? Case Western or any B has to be weighed against the B's first correct?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 08, 2008, 11:10:16 PM
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 08, 2008, 11:03:19 PM
Ralph

If the pool C teams continue to lose next week what are the chances one of the B' s steals a C bid? Case Western or any B has to be weighed against the B's first correct?
The three B's come off the table first.

I see three games affecting the B's next week.

I think that LaGrange at "8-0 in-region" is stronger than "8-1 Huntingdon" at getting a Pool B bid.

Northwestern picks up a great win, if they beat the Tommies.  St Thomas has an OT loss to St Olaf, a 3-pt loss to the Johnnies and a 2-pt loss to Augsburg.

CWRU must beat WUSTL to go 10-0.

I don't know what to make of Husson.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 09, 2008, 12:04:45 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 08, 2008, 11:10:16 PM

I see . . . .

I don't know what to make of Husson.

You have plenty of company, oh Great Mystic from the South.
Title: West
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 09, 2008, 04:09:00 PM
I hope Oxy does not get shafted again (although we all know why with the $$) and gets a home game.  Maybe the Pres-Elect can make a guest appearance since he's not too busy.

Wartburg at Williamette
Redlands at Occidental
Carleton/St J at WSP
WWW at Monmouth

1 flight and no North.
Title: Re: West
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 09, 2008, 06:11:47 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 09, 2008, 04:09:00 PM
I hope Oxy does not get shafted again (although we all know why with the $$) and gets a home game.  Maybe the Pres-Elect can make a guest appearance since he's not too busy.

Wartburg at Williamette
Redlands at Occidental
Carleton/St J at WSP
WWW at Monmouth

1 flight and no North.
How do the Redlands fans feel about a first round rematch with Oxy versus flying elsewhere for a first round game?

That is assuming that the West gets 2 Pool C bids.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 10, 2008, 10:22:54 AM
I have a question for you guys who study this more than I do (and I actually study it a fair amount  :) )

Last year was a 1st for the committee in that they seemed to pick what was the top 4 seeds and make brackets around them. I know they consider geography strongly but it seems last year it was obvious with no clear #1 in the east to move MUC. It could certainly happen again this year if Cortland loses to Ithaca. But here is my question:

If the current rankings hold through this weekend, are we sure the committee won't move an undefeated #2 into a #1 slot in another region? If they are committed to getting the 4 best teams how do they compare #2 North with #1 west? they obviously have some discussion because they clearly seed all the #1's to create the semifinal matchups.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 10, 2008, 10:55:40 AM
Quote from: USee on November 10, 2008, 10:22:54 AM
I have a question for you guys who study this more than I do (and I actually study it a fair amount  :) )

Last year was a 1st for the committee in that they seemed to pick what was the top 4 seeds and make brackets around them. I know they consider geography strongly but it seems last year it was obvious with no clear #1 in the east to move MUC. It could certainly happen again this year if Cortland loses to Ithaca. But here is my question:

If the current rankings hold through this weekend, are we sure the committee won't move an undefeated #2 into a #1 slot in another region? If they are committed to getting the 4 best teams how do they compare #2 North with #1 west? they obviously have some discussion because they clearly seed all the #1's to create the semifinal matchups.

I think you may see MUC moved to the "East" again regardless of the Cortaca Jug game.  North Central has a legit case for a #1 seed in the "North" and it would be easier for them to fill out the "East" bracket with an imported team.  Other than Cortland, there really is no team that stands out in the East this year.  The winner of the Cortaca Jug is likely to be the #2 seed in the "East"....
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: KitchenSink on November 10, 2008, 01:25:20 PM
I'm thinking about the possibility that the top 3 seeds all come from the North - as they are ranked.  Put North Central in the West, and Mount Union in the East.  Millsaps gets the last piece of the #1 pie.

That bumps Willamette and Cortland St down (even if they win on Sat) and most everyone else (except in the North  :) ).  Otherwise that North bracket (or whatever it gets called this year) is pretty brutal.

Is this too far fetched?  Or is it too obvious?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 10, 2008, 03:28:58 PM
Quote from: KitchenSink on November 10, 2008, 01:25:20 PM
I'm thinking about the possibility that the top 3 seeds all come from the North - as they are ranked.  Put North Central in the West, and Mount Union in the East.  Millsaps gets the last piece of the #1 pie.

That bumps Willamette and Cortland St down (even if they win on Sat) and most everyone else (except in the North  :) ).  Otherwise that North bracket (or whatever it gets called this year) is pretty brutal.

Is this too far fetched?  Or is it too obvious?

2 things:

1-It might be a great idea and something the committee seriously considers. Since last year's breakthrough of them picking the 4 best teams and seeding them we don't know yet how they will weigh the "4 best teams" goal against other criteria like "geographical proximity to avoid 1st round flights".

2-moving 2 teams may be a little extreme given they will have to move 3 others right back into the North bracket. Then they end up moving Thomas More, Monmouth, UWW or other teams with proximity to balance things out. Moving NCC West so they can play teams that are close to them (Monmouth, UWW, etc ) is one of the benefits.

I do think moving Mt Union east is more likley than NCC west simply because no one can argue Mt Union is a #1 over Cortland state. It's a little harder to prove NCC is better than Willamette.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 07:04:47 AM
If Cortland State wins Saturday and finishes regular season at 10-0, there is NO justification for importing a team, any team, as the East #1.

None whatsoever.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 11, 2008, 07:38:13 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 07:04:47 AM
If Cortland State wins Saturday and finishes regular season at 10-0, there is NO justification for importing a team, any team, as the East #1.

None whatsoever.

So what if North Central and MUC win on Saturday? Doesnt North Central deserve to be a #1 seed? 

Last year the NCAA set this up to pick the 4 best teams and have them #1 seeds, it will probably happen again with the East not having a clear #2 seed after the RPI loss...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: Upstate on November 11, 2008, 07:38:13 AM
So what if North Central and MUC win on Saturday? Doesnt North Central deserve to be a #1 seed? 

Last year the NCAA set this up to pick the 4 best teams and have them #1 seeds, it will probably happen again with the East not having a clear #2 seed after the RPI loss...

For me, if Cortland State wins Saturday (10-0), I could care less what MUC, NCC or anybody else in the NORTH does on Saturday.  Cortland will have gone through the season unbeaten, including a four-week stretch where they beat the three teams immediately behind them in the standings.  Cortland will have taken on all comers and remained upright when the day ended.

For my money, the AA's HEAVY emphasis on REGIONAL dictates that while somebody MAY get imported into the East, it will be as the #2, NOT the #1.  Cortland, with a win over Ithaca, will have EARNED, on the field against their regional competition, the #1 spot.

And, IF Cortland wins and the AA ships in a #1, I'll immediately start a email/snailmail campaign to eliminate all references to REGION in the criteria.  You can not tell teams for YEARS that region games are the most important, then, when a team wins all of their games, most/all In-Region, that there's another team from another region who didn't play a single team in your region who is going to be the top seed in that region.

Holding steady at 28...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2008, 11:41:53 AM
I know you're speaking hypothetically, but of course, Mount Union did play a team from the East, a playoff contender at that, and played them well.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 11, 2008, 11:52:39 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 11:37:23 AM
Quote from: Upstate on November 11, 2008, 07:38:13 AM
So what if North Central and MUC win on Saturday? Doesnt North Central deserve to be a #1 seed? 

Last year the NCAA set this up to pick the 4 best teams and have them #1 seeds, it will probably happen again with the East not having a clear #2 seed after the RPI loss...

For me, if Cortland State wins Saturday (10-0), I could care less what MUC, NCC or anybody else in the NORTH does on Saturday.  Cortland will have gone through the season unbeaten, including a four-week stretch where they beat the three teams immediately behind them in the standings.  Cortland will have taken on all comers and remained upright when the day ended.

For my money, the AA's HEAVY emphasis on REGIONAL dictates that while somebody MAY get imported into the East, it will be as the #2, NOT the #1.  Cortland, with a win over Ithaca, will have EARNED, on the field against their regional competition, the #1 spot.

And, IF Cortland wins and the AA ships in a #1, I'll immediately start a email/snailmail campaign to eliminate all references to REGION in the criteria.  You can not tell teams for YEARS that region games are the most important, then, when a team wins all of their games, most/all In-Region, that there's another team from another region who didn't play a single team in your region who is going to be the top seed in that region.

Holding steady at 28...

Bob,

your post brings up the exact question we don't have the answer to. That is the tension between last year's effort to make the BEST teams top seeds and the stated desire to keep the regional integrity. So the options are 1-leave it all as is with 5 undefeated teams loaded up in the North (certainly plenty of precedents for this action). 2-Move MUC east as #1 (a precedent for this as well albeit not with an undefeated sitting there) or 3-Move North Central west as a #1 or #2 (this balances out the bracket a little better but there is no precedent for this I don't believe). There are certainly variations of these scenarios but the key here is the committee clearly stated they want to try to get the best teams to play at the end of the bracket so balancing them out is a higher priority than in years past. We just haven't seen enough to know how/if they will do it.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 11:54:31 AM
SJF IS a playoff contender, and MUC beat them handily.

SJF struggled to beat the bottom-feeders in their own conference and now must beat Alfred or their "contending" will become "pretending".

I was musing hypothetical.

In the absence of teams (clearly) meeting the criteria, I don't have a real issue with importation.  A 10-0 SUNY-Cortland CLEARLY meets the criteria to be the #1 seed in its region.

If that means MUC & NCC are #1 & #2 in the North or one of them (NCC) gets shipped somewhere else, so be it.  But Cortland will have done nothing to merit being bumped down the ladder.  IM(not so humble)O
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 11, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
Without the bracket shake up fom last year, the brackets would be obvious.  But with MUC and WWW moving regions in '07, it makes this season very uncertain.

I think if Cortland finishes 10-0, the MUC stays in the north.  If they lose, then MUC heads east.  Cortland's resume over Montclaire, Rowan, Ithaca, etc stands up very well with the other top teams.  It's not like they went 10-0 in the PAC or NCAC ;D

Where it gets interesting is what happens to North Central if MUC stays in the North?  The West might be short a team and is NCC a better 1 seed than Willamette?  I think so, but being a north region guy, I'm sure that I'm biased.   

I'm also pulling for NCC and MUC to be in separate brackets just to see if the CCIW is as good as I think it is.  Historically over the last 15 years, very few teams have consistently played Mount tougher that the CCIW champion.  The CCIW's playoff record is around .500, but almost every one of those losses has come at Mount Union.

If I had my preference (with perfectly selfish reasons factored in), here'd be my brackets:

#1 Mount Union (North)

#2 Cortland State (East)

#3 North Central (West)

#4 Millsaps (South)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2008, 12:42:56 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 11, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
...

If I had my preference (with perfectly selfish reasons factored in), here'd be my brackets:

#1 Mount Union (North)

#2 Cortland State (East)

#3 North Central (West)

#4 Millsaps (South)

The NWC is no slouch of a conference either.  The NWC is the only conference with multiple national champions, and multiple members with Stagg appearances, since the Pools began.   Let's leave Willamette as the #1 in the West!  ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pirat on November 11, 2008, 03:01:14 PM
I think the idea of moving NCC to the West has merit but I don't agree that WU should be the #1 seed. Very recent history (last year and this year) indicates to me that my conference has lost some of its stature.  We couldn't even get a team in the damn thing last year. 

My West might look like this until Saturday's results are in:

North Central
UW-Stevens Point
Willamette
UW-Whitewater
Occidental
Wartburg
St. John's
Monmouth
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 11, 2008, 03:39:45 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 07:04:47 AM
If Cortland State wins Saturday and finishes regular season at 10-0, there is NO justification for importing a team, any team, as the East #1.

None whatsoever.

There's certainly no justification in the Selection/Seeding Criteria.

I agree with you.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 11, 2008, 07:42:49 PM
Only a few yrs ago Oxy was undefeated, ranked 6th, and had to play at Linfield in the first round rather than get a home game, or at least an easier 1st rd opponent. Nothing would surprise me about the North this time.  When it's stacked to one region and there are other factors than competitiveness like cost, anything may happen with the brackets.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 07:58:57 PM
OldSchool,

What happened with the Oxy/Linfield match should not have been a surprise. The handbook specifically deals with such situations.  Here's a phrase that all should become familiar with "Geography trumps seeding".  Texas teams have long known the meaning.

"Geography trumps seeding" changing the first-round matchup is one thing, one covered in the guidelines.

Importing a team as a #1 when an undefeated team with an acknowledged quality schedule already resides in that region is NOT covered in the guidelines, nor can I find justification for it.

If MUC and Cortland State are in the same regional bracket, should MUC be the #1 seed?  Yes.  They are the generally accepted top team in Division III.  If MUC and Cortland State were in the same geographic evaluation region, there would be no objection from this corner.  But they aren't.

Moving MUC out of the North avoids the conflict with NCC.  But it creates a one with SUNY-Cortland.  And having looked at NCC & Cortland's resumes, I don't see how one should be favord over the over.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 11, 2008, 08:20:35 PM
understood Bob.... doesn't mean there isn't ability to gripe about it year in and year out.  Tiger fans consider it bad karma from 1984 playoffs that still haunts us.


Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 09:17:39 PM
Damn, I've been good and got smote again!!!

The hiding smite-meister!


Thanks, guys.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: bbaddict on November 12, 2008, 12:22:31 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2008, 12:42:56 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 11, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
...

If I had my preference (with perfectly selfish reasons factored in), here'd be my brackets:

#1 Mount Union (North)

#2 Cortland State (East)

#3 North Central (West)

#4 Millsaps (South)

The NWC is no slouch of a conference either.  The NWC is the only conference with multiple national champions, and multiple members with Stagg appearances, since the Pools began.   Let's leave Willamette as the #1 in the West!  ;)

Yeah, what Ralph said.   First Willamette needs to beat Menlo & then, of course, leave them as #1!  Go Bearcats!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 12, 2008, 01:19:27 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 11, 2008, 07:58:57 PM
OldSchool,

What happened with the Oxy/Linfield match should not have been a surprise. The handbook specifically deals with such situations.  Here's a phrase that all should become familiar with "Geography trumps seeding".  Texas teams have long known the meaning.

"Geography trumps seeding" changing the first-round matchup is one thing, one covered in the guidelines.

Importing a team as a #1 when an undefeated team with an acknowledged quality schedule already resides in that region is NOT covered in the guidelines, nor can I find justification for it.

If MUC and Cortland State are in the same regional bracket, should MUC be the #1 seed?  Yes.  They are the generally accepted top team in Division III.  If MUC and Cortland State were in the same geographic evaluation region, there would be no objection from this corner.  But they aren't.

Moving MUC out of the North avoids the conflict with NCC.  But it creates a one with SUNY-Cortland.  And having looked at NCC & Cortland's resumes, I don't see how one should be favord over the over.

Well said.

And to be honest, getting "screwed" with a No. 2/3 seed and a bunch of home games ... cry me a river. As noted, plenty of undefeated teams have been not-No. 1 seeds, especially in some of the previously stacked West Region years.

In Division III, you still get your shot to be the best by beating the best no matter where they place you.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 12, 2008, 03:38:01 AM
One thing all this talk on Page 11/12 purports is that North Central would be a more deserving No. 1 than Cortland State.

While I have NC as the No. 2 overall and probably should be advocating this, let me just add that a Cortland State win over Ithaca would bump up the OOWP significantly and perhaps give it another win over an RRO ... North Central's CCIW sked was tough but it's non-con wasn't. Just off the top, I think Cortland might beat NC on the numbers/criteria anyway, with a win Saturday, rendering most of this discussion moot.

I am starting to think NC to the West and Willamette as a No. 2 is more and more likely.

I think the truth of the matter is the committee will have options this year and they might choose to do something different, but it doesn't mean that was their only choice ... there might not be a "right" and "wrong" way to do it if the criteria affords so much flexibility and the potential one seeds remaining tightly packed.

We should really wait til Week 11 is in the books ...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 06:44:30 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 12, 2008, 03:38:01 AM
We should really wait til Week 11 is in the books ...

That would make d3football.com nothing more than some soon-to-be-bird-cage-liner newspaper.

This is a robust, enjoyable, mind-stretching discussion.

Why should we wait?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 12, 2008, 07:04:38 AM
Quote from: bbaddict on November 12, 2008, 12:22:31 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 11, 2008, 12:42:56 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 11, 2008, 12:09:30 PM
...

If I had my preference (with perfectly selfish reasons factored in), here'd be my brackets:

#1 Mount Union (North)

#2 Cortland State (East)

#3 North Central (West)

#4 Millsaps (South)

The NWC is no slouch of a conference either.  The NWC is the only conference with multiple national champions, and multiple members with Stagg appearances, since the Pools began.   Let's leave Willamette as the #1 in the West!  ;)

Yeah, what Ralph said.   First Willamette needs to beat Menlo & then, of course, leave them as #1!  Go Bearcats!

Doesn't matter who the #1 seed is in the west, Whitewater will be the last one standing.  With a trip to Alliance in the semi-finals.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 09:08:13 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 07:04:38 AM
Doesn't matter who the #1 seed is in the west, Whitewater will be the last one standing.  With a trip to Alliance in the semi-finals.

Actually, depending on who gets imported in the West, a meeting with MUC might be set for Salem.

IF the North is so overwhelming powerful that they have to export #1s into other regions, certainly the AA will not make them play prior to the Stagg Bowl.  Otherwise, why not just keep them all in the North and send them to Alliance one after the other?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 12, 2008, 09:09:30 AM
I don't think NCC is more deserving than a 10-0 Cortland team. I think we are trying to reconcile the built in tension between the stated goals of the committee. I repeatedly said I don't know what the committee's justification in doing this would be but it's a possibility to consider.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: janesvilleflash on November 12, 2008, 10:09:44 AM
Should Whitewater lose Saturday and go 8-2, are they out of the playoffs?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 10:19:19 AM
Quote from: janesvilleflash on November 12, 2008, 10:09:44 AM
Should Whitewater lose Saturday and go 8-2, are they out of the playoffs?

Not in good shape, that's for sure.

Of course, several years ago, in the Pool B races, there was a monumental collapse among the 7-8 teams vying for inclusion.  That could happen among the 10-12 1-loss Pool C candidates on Saturday.

If it does, UWW's recent history (past several years) will help them.  But Saturday night won't be very restful, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 12, 2008, 11:57:50 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 09:08:13 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 07:04:38 AM
Doesn't matter who the #1 seed is in the west, Whitewater will be the last one standing.  With a trip to Alliance in the semi-finals.

Actually, depending on who gets imported in the West, a meeting with MUC might be set for Salem.

IF the North is so overwhelming powerful that they have to export #1s into other regions, certainly the AA will not make them play prior to the Stagg Bowl.  Otherwise, why not just keep them all in the North and send them to Alliance one after the other?

I have a sneaking suspicion that another MUC/WWW Stagg is not wanted by anyone.  And therefore the MUC region will be matched with the West.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 12, 2008, 12:38:46 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 11:57:50 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 09:08:13 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 07:04:38 AM
Doesn't matter who the #1 seed is in the west, Whitewater will be the last one standing.  With a trip to Alliance in the semi-finals.

Actually, depending on who gets imported in the West, a meeting with MUC might be set for Salem.

IF the North is so overwhelming powerful that they have to export #1s into other regions, certainly the AA will not make them play prior to the Stagg Bowl.  Otherwise, why not just keep them all in the North and send them to Alliance one after the other?

I have a sneaking suspicion that another MUC/WWW Stagg is not wanted by anyone.  And therefore the MUC region will be matched with the West.

If they are going to be matched against each other pre Stagg, MUC is going to the east regardless of the Cortland/Ithaca game...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 12, 2008, 01:08:23 PM
Why do you say that?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 12, 2008, 01:19:23 PM
Regional rankings:

http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2008/11/12/regional-rankings-final-release/
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 12, 2008, 01:33:24 PM
Upstate:  I disagree.  Mount is clearly the #1 overall seed, but the other regional top seeds are open for discussion and could be easily tailored to produce the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 regional pairings to get whatever they want.

The other seeding that seems logical is a 10-0 Cortland as the overall #2.

But what separates Millsaps from North Central or Willamette?  Can't be much.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 02:03:32 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 01:33:24 PM
The other seeding that seems logical is a 10-0 Cortland as the overall #2.

hscoach, the prevailing thought process on this board leads people to think that MUC is heading East as the #1 seed.

IF Cortland is the overall #2, and the AA sends MUC east, I'm having trouble even describing what that would mean...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: retagent on November 12, 2008, 02:44:17 PM
The"dreaded" re-re-re-re match of MUC and UWW won't happen, IMHO - at least not in the Stagg). I have seen UWW twice this season, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them out in the second round, and would be very surprised to see them in the the semis - depending on who/where they end up playing in those early rounds. They're very good, but not that good.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 12, 2008, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 02:03:32 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 01:33:24 PM
The other seeding that seems logical is a 10-0 Cortland as the overall #2.

hscoach, the prevailing thought process on this board leads people to think that MUC is heading East as the #1 seed.

IF Cortland is the overall #2, and the AA sends MUC east, I'm having trouble even describing what that would mean...

I have seen speculation on this board of MUC being #1 east but I cannot see it happening if Cortalnd wins Saturday. From what I have read and seen I think its either Cortalnd loses and MUC goes east or all everyone stays in their regions (at the top) and slug it out. Much as I 'd like to see another North team get a #1 seed there is no basis for moving an NCC to the west with 3 undefeated's sitting there either.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 05:52:49 PM
To at least slightly thin out the North, how's the idea of CWRU going East as #2 or #3?  At least it would eliminate the indignity of an undefeated team having to go on the road.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 05:54:57 PM
Last I looked, CWRU is undefeated....
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 12, 2008, 05:54:57 PM
Last I looked, CWRU is undefeated....

Yes, and with the current regional rankings, they would have to play AT Trine.  As a #2 or #3 in the East, they'd be home for one or two games.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 12, 2008, 06:01:27 PM
His point was that CWR should be a 2, 3 or 4 seed in the East so it can host.

However, right now, the North has 8 teams:

1) MUC
2) North Central
3) Wabash
4) Trine
5) CWR (Assumed Pool B)
6) Franklin
7) Otterbein (Assumed Pool C)
8) Aurora/Lakeland

You'd be forced to double-rotate to fill the North.  My guess:  Wesley rotates to the East.  The South is overflowing right now, and Wesley can fit into the East without major travel implications.  The East right now seems to have only 7 teams, as you know, so it can fit Wesley pretty easily.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 12, 2008, 06:10:03 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 05:52:49 PM
To at least slightly thin out the North, how's the idea of CWRU going East as #2 or #3?  At least it would eliminate the indignity of an undefeated team having to go on the road.

As a North guy, I'd hate to see Case be rotated out if the goal is to make the region weaker.  Case is hardly a speed bump to any of the top 3 teams in the region.  And probably isn't any higher than the 6th team in the region if actually ranking the teams on who would be expected to win. 

1.  Mount Union
2.  North Central
3.  Wabash
4.  Otterbein
5.  Franklin - I know they lost to Trine, but I don't expect it again
6.  CWR
7.  Trine
8.  Aurora/Lakeland
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Schwami on November 12, 2008, 06:26:37 PM
Moving Case to the East is no different than moving MUC in terms of geographic proximity.  It would also reward an undefeated team with a home game.  The spot opened up in the North by moving Case to the East can easily be filled by moving Thomas More to the North.  Probably close to a wash in terms of overall strength.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 06:35:01 PM
Quote from: hscoach on November 12, 2008, 06:10:03 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 05:52:49 PM
To at least slightly thin out the North, how's the idea of CWRU going East as #2 or #3?  At least it would eliminate the indignity of an undefeated team having to go on the road.

As a North guy, I'd hate to see Case be rotated out if the goal is to make the region weaker.  Case is hardly a speed bump to any of the top 3 teams in the region.  And probably isn't any higher than the 6th team in the region if actually ranking the teams on who would be expected to win. 

1.  Mount Union
2.  North Central
3.  Wabash
4.  Otterbein
5.  Franklin - I know they lost to Trine, but I don't expect it again
6.  CWR
7.  Trine
8.  Aurora/Lakeland


Before I even started typing, Schwami came through with essentially what I was going to say!

I agree with everything hscoach said (even the exact order of North teams by actual strength, rather than criteria strength).  I'd really like to bust-up that MUC, NCC, 'bash logjam, but am no longer very hopeful it will happen unless Cortland or Willamette loses.  My suggestion does at least allow all five undefeateds to have at least one home game, though it doesn't really do that much in terms of the North being LOADED.  (But perhaps not significantly more so than was routine for the West some years back.)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
From the great pool C analysis (post 138) it does look like the west will have 7 (if form holds and Northwestern Mn is not in), which lends to the NCC to west discussion.  Since Redlands is really the last pool c legit option and on the outside looking in, a trip to northern Ill is probably in the cards for a west team.  At least this should help with some of the other logjams.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:19:27 PM
I can imagine CWRU being moved to the East and getting a first round home game.  I think that there is something to be said for an undefeated team, especially if we can move Thomas More to the north and we have  teams from the South.

Muhlenberg
Millsaps
UMHB
HSU Pool C
CNU/Ferrum
Catholic/ODAC
Wesley  Pool B
LaGrange/Huntingdon  Pool B

Or, as Frank Rossi suggested, "Catholic Pool A, HSC Pool C".  This means we need to move Muhlenberg to the East as well.

East

Cortland losing to Ithaca NJAC Pool A
SJF E8 Pool A
Ithaca -- beating Cortland Pool C
Montclair St   Pool C
Hobart LL Pool A
NEFC Pool A
Muhlenberg  -- Moved in
CWRU -- Moved in


Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 12, 2008, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:19:27 PM
I can imagine CWRU being moved to the East and getting a first round home game.  I think that there is something to be said for an undefeated team, especially if we can move Thomas More to the north and we have  teams from the South.

Muhlenberg
Millsaps
UMHB
HSU Pool C
CNU/Ferrum
Catholic/ODAC
Wesley  Pool B
LaGrange/Huntingdon  Pool B

Or, as Frank Rossi suggested, "Catholic Pool A, HSC Pool C".  This means we need to move Muhlenberg to the East as well.

East

Cortland losing to Ithaca NJAC Pool A
SJF E8 Pool A
Ithaca -- beating Cortland Pool C
Montclair St   Pool C
Hobart LL Pool A
NEFC Pool A
Muhlenberg  -- Moved in
CWRU -- Moved in




Need a MAC rep....
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
From the great pool C analysis (post 138) it does look like the west will have 7 (if form holds and Northwestern Mn is not in), which lends to the NCC to west discussion.  Since Redlands is really the last pool c legit option and on the outside looking in, a trip to northern Ill is probably in the cards for a west team.  At least this should help with some of the other logjams.

IF Redlands doesn't get in, a west coast team to Naperville would still mean two flights (and a 2 or 3 having to travel first round).  But you did give me an idea - how about NCC as #1, WU as #2, Oxy as #3, and fly two teams to the coast?  Then, if WU and Oxy win, 2nd round is the natural pairing of 2 vs. 3 anyway.  (I believe all other teams to Naperville avoid flights?)  If the current West rankings hold up, yet Oxy flies to WU, we will know that economics ABSOLUTELY trumps seeds.  (We've seen it before, but has a 2 ever had to go on the road to a 1 in the first round?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:27:57 PM
Quote from: Upstate on November 12, 2008, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:19:27 PM
I can imagine CWRU being moved to the East and getting a first round home game.  I think that there is something to be said for an undefeated team, especially if we can move Thomas More to the north and we have  teams from the South.

Muhlenberg
Millsaps
UMHB
HSU Pool C
CNU/Ferrum
Catholic/ODAC
Wesley  Pool B
LaGrange/Huntingdon  Pool B

Or, as Frank Rossi suggested, "Catholic Pool A, HSC Pool C".  This means we need to move Muhlenberg to the East as well.

East

Cortland losing to Ithaca NJAC Pool A
SJF E8 Pool A
Ithaca -- beating Cortland Pool C
Montclair St   Pool C
Hobart LL Pool A
NEFC Pool A
Muhlenberg  -- Moved in
CWRU -- Moved in




Need a MAC rep....
Thanks!  +1!

Starting over!   :-\

Move CWRU or Muhlenberg out.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: old ends on November 12, 2008, 08:30:53 PM
If they stick with the 250 mile rule, MUC is a stretch from NJ and PA teams east of I-81. It is about 305 miles across PA alone. Although if they stretch it how far are the going to go. After all the same thing could happen in other regions.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wesleydad on November 12, 2008, 08:36:23 PM
old, made the trip to lake erie this past weekend and it was less than 500 from philly.  not sure where muc is, but how far from lake erie is it?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 12, 2008, 08:37:45 PM
Quote from: old ends on November 12, 2008, 08:30:53 PM
If they stick with the 250 mile rule, MUC is a stretch from NJ and PA teams east of I-81. It is about 305 miles across PA alone. Although if they stretch it how far are the going to go. After all the same thing could happen in other regions.

Its more than 250miles for NCAA games...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: old ends on November 12, 2008, 08:30:53 PM
If they stick with the 250 mile rule, MUC is a stretch from NJ and PA teams east of I-81. It is about 305 miles across PA alone. Although if they stretch it how far are the going to go. After all the same thing could happen in other regions.

Is there a 250 mile rule I'm not familiar with?  It's 500 miles before the NCAA pays for a plane - that (and the 200 mile rule for in-region) are the only mileage rules I've heard of.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: old ends on November 12, 2008, 08:40:31 PM
GOt it I must have been thinking of something else.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:41:17 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
From the great pool C analysis (post 138) it does look like the west will have 7 (if form holds and Northwestern Mn is not in), which lends to the NCC to west discussion.  Since Redlands is really the last pool c legit option and on the outside looking in, a trip to northern Ill is probably in the cards for a west team.  At least this should help with some of the other logjams.

IF Redlands doesn't get in, a west coast team to Naperville would still mean two flights (and a 2 or 3 having to travel first round).  But you did give me an idea - how about NCC as #1, WU as #2, Oxy as #3, and fly two teams to the coast?  Then, if WU and Oxy win, 2nd round is the natural pairing of 2 vs. 3 anyway.  (I believe all other teams to Naperville avoid flights?)  If the current West rankings hold up, yet Oxy flies to WU, we will know that economics ABSOLUTELY trumps seeds.  (We've seen it before, but has a 2 ever had to go on the road to a 1 in the first round?
In the "Texas Sub-Bracket" in 2002, #3 UMHB went to #2 Trinity.

2002 Bracket (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/02/bracket.htm)

#3 UMHB went to #1 Trinity in the first round in 2005

2005 Bracket (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/05/bracket.htm)

IN 2006 #3 HSU went to #2 UMHB

2006 Bracket (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/06/bracket.pdf)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: PA_wesleyfan on November 12, 2008, 08:48:01 PM
old ends

I would guess they use rt 80 which takes them closer to the NY. I am not as familiar with the roads in western PA into Ny by way of Erie? The E8 crowd would probably know more about that.

Ralph

If things stand as they are it looks like the Lagrange/Huntingdon winner would go to Texas. Matching Wesley with Muhlenberg or with the USAC winner at Wesley.

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: KitchenSink on November 12, 2008, 08:53:06 PM
I'm thinking the NCAA would like to insert Huntington into the field so they can have 4 more or less "Deep South" teams - M H Baylor, Hardin Simmons, Millsaps and Huntington.

HS to Millsaps and Hunt to MHB.  It's close but I think they both make the 500 mile cutoff.  Only 3 makes it a plane ride for someone ...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:54:32 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:41:17 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
From the great pool C analysis (post 138) it does look like the west will have 7 (if form holds and Northwestern Mn is not in), which lends to the NCC to west discussion.  Since Redlands is really the last pool c legit option and on the outside looking in, a trip to northern Ill is probably in the cards for a west team.  At least this should help with some of the other logjams.

IF Redlands doesn't get in, a west coast team to Naperville would still mean two flights (and a 2 or 3 having to travel first round).  But you did give me an idea - how about NCC as #1, WU as #2, Oxy as #3, and fly two teams to the coast?  Then, if WU and Oxy win, 2nd round is the natural pairing of 2 vs. 3 anyway.  (I believe all other teams to Naperville avoid flights?)  If the current West rankings hold up, yet Oxy flies to WU, we will know that economics ABSOLUTELY trumps seeds.  (We've seen it before, but has a 2 ever had to go on the road to a 1 in the first round?
In the "Texas Sub-Bracket" in 2002, #3 UMHB went to #2 Trinity.

2002 Bracket (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/02/bracket.htm)

#3 UMHB went to #1 Trinity in the first round in 2005

2005 Bracket (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/05/bracket.htm)

IN 2006 #3 HSU went to #2 UMHB

2006 Bracket (http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/06/bracket.pdf)

Yeah, I had in mind both Texas and the 'left coast', and knew there had been some egregious 'bending' of seeds due to geography.  But a #2 going to a #1 would apparently be a first.  I'm offering them a way out with only one extra plane ride. ;D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 08:59:14 PM
Yeah,  I think that Willamette hosting a weak seed and a #5 Redlands at #3/2 Oxy might cover the West Region.

I think that the SCIAC wouldn't mind it too much.

Then Oxy/Redlands or Willamette/weak seed could fly to the higher seed.

I have thought that Redlands is the 6th Pool C.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 12, 2008, 09:00:17 PM
Quote from: KitchenSink on November 12, 2008, 08:53:06 PM
I'm thinking the NCAA would like to insert Huntington into the field so they can have 4 more or less "Deep South" teams - M H Baylor, Hardin Simmons, Millsaps and Huntington.

HS to Millsaps and Hunt to MHB.  It's close but I think they both make the 500 mile cutoff.  Only 3 makes it a plane ride for someone ...

Huntingdon/LaGrange to Millsaps is a bus ride.

HSU at UMHB is a bus ride.

UMHB to Millsaps is a bus ride. (HSU to Millsaps is not.)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 09:02:47 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
From the great pool C analysis (post 138) it does look like the west will have 7 (if form holds and Northwestern Mn is not in), which lends to the NCC to west discussion.  Since Redlands is really the last pool c legit option and on the outside looking in, a trip to northern Ill is probably in the cards for a west team.  At least this should help with some of the other logjams.

IF Redlands doesn't get in, a west coast team to Naperville would still mean two flights (and a 2 or 3 having to travel first round).  But you did give me an idea - how about NCC as #1, WU as #2, Oxy as #3, and fly two teams to the coast?  Then, if WU and Oxy win, 2nd round is the natural pairing of 2 vs. 3 anyway.  (I believe all other teams to Naperville avoid flights?)  If the current West rankings hold up, yet Oxy flies to WU, we will know that economics ABSOLUTELY trumps seeds.  (We've seen it before, but has a 2 ever had to go on the road to a 1 in the first round?

Ypsi, I was thinking more like a "west" team being Wartburg as the 8 seed to NCC which would not require a 2nd flight.  I like your thinking though.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Teamski on November 12, 2008, 09:03:15 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 12, 2008, 01:19:27 AM
In Division III, you still get your shot to be the best by beating the best no matter where they place you.

Probably one of the best statements of all time!  Well said.

-Ski
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: willierobin on November 12, 2008, 09:20:18 PM
How about this in the South (barring upsets):

Milsaps hosts Huntington/LaGrange winner
MHB hosts HSU
Muehlenburg hosts Catholic
Wesley hosts CNU

Thomas More goes north
HSC and W&J stay home (unless the Mules or Wesley go East)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 09:33:27 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 09:02:47 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2008, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 12, 2008, 08:10:19 PM
From the great pool C analysis (post 138) it does look like the west will have 7 (if form holds and Northwestern Mn is not in), which lends to the NCC to west discussion.  Since Redlands is really the last pool c legit option and on the outside looking in, a trip to northern Ill is probably in the cards for a west team.  At least this should help with some of the other logjams.

IF Redlands doesn't get in, a west coast team to Naperville would still mean two flights (and a 2 or 3 having to travel first round).  But you did give me an idea - how about NCC as #1, WU as #2, Oxy as #3, and fly two teams to the coast?  Then, if WU and Oxy win, 2nd round is the natural pairing of 2 vs. 3 anyway.  (I believe all other teams to Naperville avoid flights?)  If the current West rankings hold up, yet Oxy flies to WU, we will know that economics ABSOLUTELY trumps seeds.  (We've seen it before, but has a 2 ever had to go on the road to a 1 in the first round?

Ypsi, I was thinking more like a "west" team being Wartburg as the 8 seed to NCC which would not require a 2nd flight.  I like your thinking though.

The two flights I had in mind were teams going to WU and Oxy (since they have BOTH earned a home game).
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Danimal814 on November 13, 2008, 01:07:44 AM
I think the main thing the committee needs to focus on is moving at least MUC, NCC, or Wabash to another region.  I remember Linfield in 2005 when they had an absolute brutal road to through the play-offs playing I think 3 or 4 top 10 teams on their way to eventually losing.  I think forcing a team to play that many quality opponents and having another team play weaker competition leads to an unfair advantage.  The goal is to find the best team, not the team that is the best in a region and beats a team decimated by attrition.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2008, 07:00:30 AM
Danimal,

Welcome to the party.

The ultimate goal is to find the best team.  That's why D-III has a national championship game determined by a playoff system.

For many years, though, the NCAA's preliminary goals included determining a REGION's best team.  That team would then play another REGION's best team in the semifinals with those winners meeting in the A.A. Stagg Bowl.

Over the past two years, we've seen a shift, a change, a morphing of the preliminary goals, more toward what you wrote.  The AA appeared last year to make a major shift toward setting up their perceived four best teams to meet in the semifinals.

Whether that was a quirk, a shift, a morph, or a real change remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Black n Gold on November 13, 2008, 07:17:13 AM
I know it's a long shot..........

But could anyone tell me who I should be cheering for on Saturday as a Wooster Fighting Scot fan
(Assuming they win, with a tough game against Wittenberg)

Who do we need to lose or win......or are there way too many things that need to happen?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 13, 2008, 07:24:24 AM
Quote from: Black n Gold on November 13, 2008, 07:17:13 AM
I know it's a long shot..........

But could anyone tell me who I should be cheering for on Saturday as a Wooster Fighting Scot fan
(Assuming they win, with a tough game against Wittenberg)

Who do we need to lose or win......or are there way too many things that need to happen?

Cheer for 2009.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Black n Gold on November 13, 2008, 07:33:22 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 13, 2008, 07:24:24 AM
Quote from: Black n Gold on November 13, 2008, 07:17:13 AM
I know it's a long shot..........

But could anyone tell me who I should be cheering for on Saturday as a Wooster Fighting Scot fan
(Assuming they win, with a tough game against Wittenberg)

Who do we need to lose or win......or are there way too many things that need to happen?

Cheer for 2009.


............ :'(
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 13, 2008, 07:36:44 AM
Quote from: Danimal814 on November 13, 2008, 01:07:44 AM
I think the main thing the committee needs to focus on is moving at least MUC, NCC, or Wabash to another region.  I remember Linfield in 2005 when they had an absolute brutal road to through the play-offs playing I think 3 or 4 top 10 teams on their way to eventually losing.  I think forcing a team to play that many quality opponents and having another team play weaker competition leads to an unfair advantage.  The goal is to find the best team, not the team that is the best in a region and beats a team decimated by attrition.
How about the 2004 UMHB team?  They went on the road and beat #7 Trinity by 29, #3 HSU by 14 , #5 W&J by 36, #1 MUC by 3 before losing to #2 Linfield 28-21 in the Stagg.

South Region Top 10 teams (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5306.0).
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2008, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: Black n Gold on November 13, 2008, 07:17:13 AM
I know it's a long shot..........

But could anyone tell me who I should be cheering for on Saturday as a Wooster Fighting Scot fan
(Assuming they win, with a tough game against Wittenberg)

Who do we need to lose or win......or are there way too many things that need to happen?

You should cheer for EVERYONE playing any of the 10 teams ahead of you in the current POOL C chase.  Of course, you have to figure out whether a win by one of those "C" teams could give them an "AQ" and knock the current "AQ" leader into the "C" frey and behind your team.

While there has never been a monumental "C" collapse the likes of which you probably need to get an invite, it has happened in "B".  Several years ago, the entire "B" pool collapsed on the final day.  The whole thing.  THUD!  So, there is hope.

2009 looks more hopeful, though, to be completely honest.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 13, 2008, 08:39:07 AM
As a MUC guy, I'm not worried about the relative strength of one region versus another.  The best team will make it thru, and since more times than not, it has been my team.  Therefore I'm not too concerned.  When you have to go back to 1994 for find a season that your favorite team failed to make the Semi-Finals, you get a little "ho-hum" about the brackets.

However for the fan of a team trying to gain national attention, a stacked bracket is an unfortunate case of bad luck.  The CCIW teams have been ones most impacted by this in my opinion over the years.  That's a darn good conference whose champion is easily Top 5 material most years, but they're not making it out of the North Region if they have to play MUC.   

I have a large amount of respect for the CCIW and that's why I'm pulling for Mount and NCC to be in separate brackets.  I'd really like to see what a CCIW team could do without an early match-up with Mount.

I have a bigger problem with the Texas sub-bracket than I do with the relative strength of one region over another.  Having the #1 and #3 teams play in the first round is crazy.  I know why the NCAA does it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.



And the argument about how un-fair it is that one region is stacked and another is weak is just the luck of the draw.  I know the West Region was stacked a couple years ago, but it's cyclical and this time it's the North.  And it's been the North before. 

Back in 96 and 97, Mount's toughest game by far was the 1st round match-ups with Allegheny (31-26 in '96 and 34-30 in '97).  After that, it was smooth sailing to the title as the next closest game in '96 was an 18 point win in the semi's over LaCrosse and the next closest in '97 was a 47 point win over Simpson in the semi's. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HSC85 on November 13, 2008, 09:25:32 AM
If the committee wants to minimize cost, a possible South Region bracket could look like this:

Millsaps/Huntingdon-LaGrange winner
UMHB/HSU
Catholic/Wesley
HSC/CNU

Thomas Moore to North and Mulenburg to East.

I just don't know how cost containment plays against rewarding the deserving teams. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 13, 2008, 09:42:50 AM
Quote from: HSC85 on November 13, 2008, 09:25:32 AM
If the committee wants to minimize cost, a possible South Region bracket could look like this:

Millsaps/Huntingdon-LaGrange winner
UMHB/HSU
Catholic/Wesley
HSC/CNU

Thomas Moore to North and Mulenburg to East.

I just don't know how cost containment plays against rewarding the deserving teams. 

You have to look at all the brackets. You can't just move "Thomas More to North" since there are currently 8 teams in that bracket. And if you move MUC to the east (if Ithaca wins) to make room for TM, then you can't move Muhlenberg to the East. There are more issues than just the South out there.

The easiest scenario for the committee it would seem to me is if Ithaca wins and they move MUC east. that solves a number of current issues:

-East gets stronger
-Thomas More goes North and solves South problem
-CWR gets a home game as an undefeated team (if brackets stay same they travel in round 1 to Trine)
-balances North bracket logjam

I have a feeling, however, that Cortland isn't going to be very cooperative.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Danimal814 on November 13, 2008, 10:01:27 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 13, 2008, 08:39:07 AM
As a MUC guy, I'm not worried about the relative strength of one region versus another.  The best team will make it thru, and since more times than not, it has been my team.  Therefore I'm not too concerned.  When you have to go back to 1994 for find a season that your favorite team failed to make the Semi-Finals, you get a little "ho-hum" about the brackets.

However for the fan of a team trying to gain national attention, a stacked bracket is an unfortunate case of bad luck.  The CCIW teams have been ones most impacted by this in my opinion over the years.  That's a darn good conference whose champion is easily Top 5 material most years, but they're not making it out of the North Region if they have to play MUC.   

I have a large amount of respect for the CCIW and that's why I'm pulling for Mount and NCC to be in separate brackets.  I'd really like to see what a CCIW team could do without an early match-up with Mount.

Two things.  First, while Mt. Union has been to the semi-finals, I'm pretty sure anything less than a national title is a disappointment for you guys.  Look at div. 1 this year.  Texas had to play 4 straight top 12 opponents and that probably had something to do with them barely losing to Tech.  I'd hate to see the same thing happen to anyone including MUC because some team had a pass not playing anyone in the top 10 while you have to play 3 or 4 top 10 teams. 

Second, I agree about the CCIW (and the NCAC.)  NCC and Wabash are trying to gain respect and become a national title contender every year instead of making the play-offs and losing in one or two games in.  I know last year Wabash had a bit of a cake walk to the final 8 and that was a great experience for everyone on campus.  Karma could come back this year and have us playing the #2 team in the nation on the road in the second round.  I'd just prefer to see the committee try its best to change that.

Finally, anyone know if Wabash could, not saying they should, but if they could go South?  I'm just wondering for future reference because I know Depauw is a South region team despite being 27 miles South of us.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 13, 2008, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: hscoach on November 13, 2008, 07:24:24 AM
Quote from: Black n Gold on November 13, 2008, 07:17:13 AM
I know it's a long shot..........

But could anyone tell me who I should be cheering for on Saturday as a Wooster Fighting Scot fan
(Assuming they win, with a tough game against Wittenberg)

Who do we need to lose or win......or are there way too many things that need to happen?

Cheer for 2009.

Apologies to Woo fans but that was really funny.

Wooster needs a lot to happen to have a chance not the least of which is they have to beat Wittenberg this Saturday!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 13, 2008, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: Danimal814 on November 13, 2008, 10:01:27 AM
Finally, anyone know if Wabash could, not saying they should, but if they could go South?  I'm just wondering for future reference because I know Depauw is a South region team despite being 27 miles South of us.

Of course they COULD go South. It probably wouldn't happen this year beacause the South needs more exports than imports but it is certainly an option in most years.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: ADL70 on November 13, 2008, 10:20:18 AM
Wabash going south (think of the concept!) region would probably require some "northern" South region teams in the playoffs (WUStL, Centre...e.g.)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Black n Gold on November 14, 2008, 06:38:01 AM
What happens if Ithaca falls to Cortland State......do they lose their projected C Pool bid?

East Region
1. Cortland State 9-0 9-0
2. Ithaca 7-1 8-1

Didn't know how it usually pans out with a 1 playing a 2 in the final week
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 14, 2008, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: Black n Gold on November 14, 2008, 06:38:01 AM
What happens if Ithaca falls to Cortland State......do they lose their projected C Pool bid?

East Region
1. Cortland State 9-0 9-0
2. Ithaca 7-1 8-1

Didn't know how it usually pans out with a 1 playing a 2 in the final week
Unless SJF stumbles at Alfred, then Ithaca becomes a Pool C team with 2 in-region losses.

Redlands ought be yelling at that point, as should every other 1-loss team!

Let's cite Frank Rossi's excellent summary from the Pool C thread (post #138) (http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=6060.135) of Nov 12th and re-title it, 11th week Chaos!  Frank has found the key games for Pool C watchers to follow!

QuoteWhat RPI Needs to Happen  11th Week Chaos
--------------------------
RPI would stand a very decent chance of making the NCAA Playoffs if any of these scenarios occurred this weekend (or virtually a 100% chance if two or more occurred), assuming Hobart and RPI both win:

1) Cortland beats Ithaca (Ithaca removed from Pool C with loss);
2) Alfred beats St. John Fisher (Ithaca removed from Pool C with Pool A win);
3) John Carroll beats Otterbein (Otterbein removed from Pool C with loss);
4) UW-Platteville beats UW-Whitewater (UW-Whitewater removed from Pool C with loss);
5) UW-La Crosse beats UW-Stevens Point (UW-Whitewater removed from Pool C with Pool A win)*;
6) Randolph-Macon beats Hampden-Sydney (Hampden-Sydney removed from Pool C with loss);
7) Kean beats Montclair St. (Montclair St. removed from Pool C with loss); or
8 ) Bridgewater (Va.) beats Catholic (Hampden-Sydney removed from Pool C with Pool A win).

* - UW-Steven's Point COULD be considered with two losses for Pool C, although their selection would be unlikely.

Again, for safety, RPI needs to root for at least TWO of these scenarios.  If one occurs, there is a possibility for a subjective or objective analysis to knock it out of the Pool C debate when it finally reaches the board (i.e., after Ithaca and/or Montclair are picked to allow for RPI discussions).

Here is Frank Rossi's Pool C contenders list.  (The 6 Pool C bids selected by Pat Coleman in the Daily Dose (http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2008/11/13/our-projected-field-of-32/) are starred.)  Frank and Pat Coleman came to the same conclusion of the 6 Pool C bids prior to this week's games.

QuoteUsing this week's Regional Rankings, here is the likely seeding of each region's Pool C nominees. 

East:

1) Ithaca*, 2) Montclair*, 3) RPI, 4) Hartwick, 5) Rowan and 6) Curry

North:

1) Otterbein*, 2) Wooster and 3) Elmhurst

South:

1) Hardin-Simmons*, 2) Hampden-Sydney*, 3) Wash. & Jeff. and 4) The Winner of LaGrange/Huntingdon if not chosen for Pool C

West:

1) UW-Whitewater*, 2) Redlands and 3) Northwestern (Minn.) if not chosen for Pool C
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 14, 2008, 09:38:58 AM
Ithaca (replaced by Montclair State)
UWW (replaced by Redlands)
Otterbein (replaced by Wooster)
Hardin-Simmons (replaced by Hampden-Sydney)
Hampden-Sydney (replaced by W&J)
Montclair State.

And, then I would see RPI/W&J and Wooster/Redlands

I get to the same place, just in a different order.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 14, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
Found an article in a local Ohio paper interviewing Dick Kaiser, Head of the D3 playoff selection committee. Here is the link:

http://www.crescent-news.com/news/article/4466158

He says some interesting things that give insight into the committee's thinking.

On the top 4 seeds:

"I think we're going to try again to seed the top four teams," said Kaiser, who served as the defensive coordinator at Idaho State in 1981 when it won the Division I-AA national championship and before that coached outside linebackers at BYU. "Then take the teams and fill up the brackets so it won't be like North, East, South and West. It'll be like Team A's bracket, Team B's bracket and so on and so forth. That's how last year, everybody was all upset that all of sudden Mount Union was playing all of these East teams. Alliance is close (to the East coast) and can play all those East teams."

On the criteria for selection:


"The very first thing we always look at is there any head-to-head meetings," said Kaiser, a Boulder, Colo. native. "Head-to-head is one of the primary criteria we always look at in ranking teams and putting teams into the field. If they didn't play each other, then you have to go to the numbers about their opponents, their in-region record, their opponents in-region record, their opponents, opponents in-region record. Then you also look at the secondary criteria, their opponents in-division record and their opponents, opponents in-division record. Those are four numbers that we have to take into play."
Using a common opponent that teams played can also be used in the Pool B and C situations.
"Last year we had a Pool C team make it in by five to sixth one-thousand of a point," explained Kaiser. "Kind of like Defiance High School got into the playoffs this year."


On Travel problems with 1st round mathchups:

Kaiser and the committee have the challenging task of matching up teams in the playoffs so the don't have to fly to play games, with the cost coming out of the NCAA's pocket. The NCAA requires teams to fly if they're traveling 500 miles or more and requires teams to take a bus if the trip is 499 miles or closer.
"That's not ever real easy, not at all," said Kaiser about trying to keep flights to a minimum for the playoffs. "This year there's a strong possibility that there will be a potential No. 1 (regional) seed out of Oregon, an undefeated team out of California, a one-loss league champion out of Texas and undefeated team out of Jackson, Miss. There's no schools close, so you're going to have to fly."



Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2008, 04:48:02 PM
Quote from: USee on November 14, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
Found an article in a local Ohio paper interviewing Dick Kaiser, Head of the D3 playoff selection committee. Here is the link:

http://www.crescent-news.com/news/article/4466158

He says some interesting things that give insight into the committee's thinking.

On the criteria for selection:

"The very first thing we always look at is there any head-to-head meetings," said Kaiser, a Boulder, Colo. native. "Head-to-head is one of the primary criteria we always look at in ranking teams and putting teams into the field. If they didn't play each other, then you have to go to the numbers about their opponents, their in-region record, their opponents in-region record, their opponents, opponents in-region record. Then you also look at the secondary criteria, their opponents in-division record and their opponents, opponents in-division record. Those are four numbers that we have to take into play."
Using a common opponent that teams played can also be used in the Pool B and C situations.
"Last year we had a Pool C team make it in by five to sixth one-thousand of a point," explained Kaiser. "Kind of like Defiance High School got into the playoffs this year."



Warning:  D-III Geeky Analysis Ahead:

I'm a stickler for these sorts of things, I admit it.  But I suspect Dick Kaiser would agree with me, that rules is rules.

This is the second report of an interview with Dick Kaiser that leaves me a little bit anxious about how closely the Selection Committee actually follows its own rules.  The 2008 - 2009 NCAA Division III Manual (http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Division_3_Manual_2008-093931a78a-9fe9-4077-93e0-d99fa45a51c1.pdf) includes the following requirement:


Although the language isn't repeated verbatim, the 2008 DIVISION III FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP HANDBOOK (http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/3_football_handbook.pdf) puts it this way:


In other words, the Committee may only go to the secondary criteria after it has

My anxiety starts when I read such quotes as "Head-to-head is one of the primary criteria we always look at  in ranking teams and putting teams into the field."  But Mr. Kaiser, don't you always look at ALL of the primary criteria in ranking teams and putting teams into the field?  That's what the rules require.

I wouldn't get anxious if Mr. Kaiser said that head-to-head is the primary criterion that always gets highest priority.  But he didn't say that.

My anxiety doesn't diminish when Mr. Kaiser is quoted jumbling primary and secondary criteria together, and then saying "Those are four numbers that we have to take into play."  But Mr. Kaiser, the rules say that you must take ALL of the numbers into play, and you must first evaluate based on ALL of the primary criteria before you may evaluate based on ALL of the secondary criteria.

I'm surprised that I haven't seen any mention of record v. ranked opponents in any reports of interviews with Dick Kaiser.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: dc_has_been on November 14, 2008, 06:09:20 PM
redswarm81- you have way to much time on your hands.   ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 14, 2008, 06:22:51 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on November 14, 2008, 06:09:20 PM
redswarm81- you have way to much time on your hands.   ;)

This is what life is like in the East Region...

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2008, 06:51:57 PM
Quote from: Upstate on November 14, 2008, 06:22:51 PM
Quote from: dc_has_been on November 14, 2008, 06:09:20 PM
redswarm81- you have way to much time on your hands.   ;)

This is what life is like in the East Region...


Hey, if you go to the Daily Dose Playoff Predictions page, you can scroll down to K-Mack's link to Ralph Turner's OCD-like labor of love that resulted in the NCAA correcting its Manual(s).  The errors had been creating problems with several teams, and in more than one sport, and the corrections eliminated those problems (so that the NCAA could get on with causing other problems.  :D )

Yes, I've spent quite a few minutes going over the Selection Criteria, and I'm worried that the Chairman of the Selection Committee isn't following those criteria.  If the result is to clear the air, then my time is well spent, as was Ralph's.

I realize that my brand of geeky analysis is not popular on every board.  I'm not forcing anyone to read my posts, and I even post warnings when I get particularly geeky.

But thanks for noticing.  ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on November 14, 2008, 07:03:49 PM
Quote from: USee on November 14, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
Found an article in a local Ohio paper interviewing Dick Kaiser, Head of the D3 playoff selection committee. Here is the link:

"It'll be like Team A's bracket, Team B's bracket and so on and so forth. That's how last year, everybody was all upset that all of sudden Mount Union was playing all of these East teams."

With due respect to Mr. Kaiser, everybody was most certainly not upset that Mount Union was playing a bunch of East teams.   ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 14, 2008, 08:08:35 PM
If the top 4 teams are identified and brackets filled in around them, no East or West team cracks the top 4 (D3 or AFCA).
It looks more and more like Mt Union to the East, NCC to the West since it makes some geographic sense with Wabash leading the North and Millsaps for the South.
This should get interesting.

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 14, 2008, 08:13:27 PM
Is it Sunday afternoon yet?  I hate waiting >:(
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 14, 2008, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 14, 2008, 07:03:49 PM
Quote from: USee on November 14, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
Found an article in a local Ohio paper interviewing Dick Kaiser, Head of the D3 playoff selection committee. Here is the link:

"It'll be like Team A's bracket, Team B's bracket and so on and so forth. That's how last year, everybody was all upset that all of sudden Mount Union was playing all of these East teams."

With due respect to Mr. Kaiser, everybody was most certainly not upset that Mount Union was playing a bunch of East teams.   ;)

Yeah, the rest of us in the North were quite delighted - until we discovered that UWW was the replacement.  For last year (only?) we finally escape the Purple Bullies only to face an even bigger Purple Bully! :(

I guess it was the other teams in the West who got the benefit of MUC's move. ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on November 14, 2008, 08:24:11 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 14, 2008, 08:08:35 PM
If the top 4 teams are identified and brackets filled in around them, no East or West team cracks the top 4 (D3 or AFCA).
It looks more and more like Mt Union to the East, NCC to the West since it makes some geographic sense with Wabash leading the North and Millsaps for the South.
This should get interesting.

Oh don't tease...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: theoriginalupstate on November 14, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
Its mixed over in the East, a couple of us out there dont mind the top 4 teams getting brackets while some think since its "our" region "our" teams should be make the bracket up...

I still think MUC is going to be the #1 seed in the East regardless of the Cortaca Jug game...

And will once again play SJF in the playoffs, this time in the first round...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 14, 2008, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: TigerOldSchool on November 14, 2008, 08:08:35 PM
If the top 4 teams are identified and brackets filled in around them, no East or West team cracks the top 4 (D3 or AFCA).
It looks more and more like Mt Union to the East, NCC to the West since it makes some geographic sense with Wabash leading the North and Millsaps for the South.
This should get interesting.


You don't have to believe me, you can ask Bob Gregg on this one as well:  The Selection Committee MAY NOT consider any polls in making its selection and seeding.

Only the selection criteria apply.  If Cortland wins the Cortaca Jug, then on the basis of the selection criteria, there's no way to justify moving anyone to the East to displace 10-0 no. 1 ranked Cortland.

In 2007, the only undefeated East team was Curry, and I don't think that Curry had any wins v. RROs, so the Committee could use that criterion to rank MUC clearly ahead of Curry, and justify moving MUC East to seed MUC ahead of Curry.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 14, 2008, 09:12:56 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 14, 2008, 09:05:38 PM

You don't have to believe me, you can ask Bob Gregg on this one as well:  The Selection Committee MAY NOT consider any polls in making its selection and seeding.

Only the selection criteria apply.  If Cortland wins the Cortaca Jug, then on the basis of the selection criteria, there's no way to justify moving anyone to the East to displace 10-0 no. 1 ranked Cortland. ...

I agree with Redswarm.

A 10-0 Cortland has run the table thru a very good conference, and beat a formidable foe in a rival game.  That is a #1 Regional Seed!

Now would NCC rather be the #2 Seed in the West or in the North?   ;)

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wally_wabash on November 14, 2008, 09:15:04 PM
I think what Kaiser is saying is that it may be an outdated way of thinking about the tournament strictly in terms of geographic regionality.  If the committee, after taking into consideration their mission to limit the use of airplanes, can create a field where the top four teams (in their estimation) can be #1 seeds, then that's what they want to do.  
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 14, 2008, 09:22:13 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 14, 2008, 09:15:04 PM
I think what Kaiser is saying is that it may be an outdated way of thinking about the tournament strictly in terms of geographic regionality.  If the committee, after taking into consideration their mission to limit the use of airplanes, can create a field where the top four teams (in their estimation) can be #1 seeds, then that's what they want to do.  
But the funding for the playoffs ($$$$) must precede the Committee selections.

The Comptroller is sitting in that committee room whether we see him or not.   :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 14, 2008, 10:52:07 PM
First, thanks to Ralph Turner for the kudos related to my post on the Pool C message board.

Second, as always, we invite you to join Tom Santa Barbara and me live on WABY-Mechanicville 1160AM in the Capital New York Region, or at http://saratogamoon.com over the Internet, for this week's road game for the Union Dutchmen Football Team at the Susquehanna Crusaders starting at 12:45PM EST.  Union's 28-season streak of non-losing seasons is at stake, as is a potential ECAC Bowl bid.

In addition. throughout the game, we will monitor the status of relevant games that may affect Liberty League team seeding and selection, namely for Hobart and RPI.  We'll discuss the changing scenarios and how they may affect Pool C selection throughout the East Region as the changes develop.

Please join us, and feel free to email us during the broadcast at rossif@yahoo.com for any questions you'd like answered on the air.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 14, 2008, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 14, 2008, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on November 14, 2008, 07:03:49 PM
Quote from: USee on November 14, 2008, 03:03:57 PM
Found an article in a local Ohio paper interviewing Dick Kaiser, Head of the D3 playoff selection committee. Here is the link:

"It'll be like Team A's bracket, Team B's bracket and so on and so forth. That's how last year, everybody was all upset that all of sudden Mount Union was playing all of these East teams."

With due respect to Mr. Kaiser, everybody was most certainly not upset that Mount Union was playing a bunch of East teams.   ;)

Yeah, the rest of us in the North were quite delighted - until we discovered that UWW was the replacement.  For last year (only?) we finally escape the Purple Bullies only to face an even bigger Purple Bully! :(

I guess it was the other teams in the West who got the benefit of MUC's move. ;)

You're 100% right.  Bethel was a horrible Semi-Final opponent for Mount last year.  There was no way they should have made it out of any bracket. >:(
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 15, 2008, 12:13:51 PM
Suggestion for Improving/Clarifying the Ranking/Selection Process

I would propose changing the D-III Football Ranking/Selection Criteria to mirror the Criteria in other D-III sports.  Specifically, I'd change the rule that effectively says only the final (secret) rankings count.  That is a rule that applies only to D-III football.  It differs from the rule laid out on page 253 of the 2008 - 2009 NCAA Division III Manual (http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Division_3_Manual_2008-093931a78a-9fe9-4077-93e0-d99fa45a51c1.pdf), which says the following:


Since there are only three Regional Rankings published, and since the first one isn't published until after week 8 of the season, it seems legitimate to regard any team that is ranked at any time to be a quality opponent.  Making the D-III football Selection Criteria mirror those in the D-III Manual would add more available criteria for evaluating teams, and that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 15, 2008, 02:09:32 PM
^ of course it only applies to football!  It's the D3 version of bcs
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 15, 2008, 02:30:47 PM
Barring comebacks, virtually all our speculations may be rendered moot!  Cortland St. is down 28-13 to Ithaca, DePauw is all over Wabash 23-0, and Muhlenberg is down 14-7 to Moravian - all at or near halftime.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: usee on November 15, 2008, 02:44:38 PM
Ithaca leads Cortland 35-13 w 5 min left. This one appears over.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 15, 2008, 03:55:11 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 15, 2008, 02:30:47 PM
Barring comebacks, virtually all our speculations may be rendered moot!  Cortland St. is down 28-13 to Ithaca, DePauw is all over Wabash 23-0, and Muhlenberg is down 14-7 to Moravian - all at or near halftime.

Thus far, much of D-III is a bloodbath.

Wabash down 33- 14;

Muhlenberg 21 - 21 last report - HOLY MOLY, Moravian wins in OT;

Cortland beaten soundly 35 - 13;

Montclair St. loses to Kean 21 - 17;

Bridgewater beats Catholic;

Lycoming over Leb. Valley and DelVal over Albright

UPDATE: John Carroll TD, PAT Kick good, JCU 17 Otterbein  17  3:43 4th Q
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 15, 2008, 04:09:24 PM
holy cow.... that's a crazy final weekend

and the sciac may have trouble getting to its games with several major fires shutting down much of the LA/OC/Riverside Counties freeway system.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 15, 2008, 04:43:11 PM
With Cortland St. falling (and Muhlenberg also falling), I'd say it is now as sure a thing as speculation ever is that MUC will anchor the 'East' again.  With Wabash falling, NCC will almost certainly anchor the North.  No more worries for Willamette that NCC will replace them in the West. ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 15, 2008, 04:54:44 PM
Of course some of us can root for an Oxy rout and a Williamette loss to bring someone to fire-land.   ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 15, 2008, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 15, 2008, 04:43:11 PM
With Cortland St. falling (and Muhlenberg also falling), I'd say it is now as sure a thing as speculation ever is that MUC will anchor the 'East' again.  With Wabash falling, NCC will almost certainly anchor the North.  No more worries for Willamette that NCC will replace them in the West. ;)

What if Willamette loses?  Can a 9-0 Oxy get a no. 1 seed?  (I won't go so far as to wonder what if Oxy loses, even though crazy STUFF has happened today.

Okay Old Tiger beat me to it--I'll let him have the Oxy loss.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: TigerOldSchool on November 15, 2008, 05:07:13 PM
Oxy 27-0 at half
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 15, 2008, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2008, 08:28:49 AM
....While there has never been a monumental "C" collapse the likes of which you probably need to get an invite, it has happened in "B".  Several years ago, the entire "B" pool collapsed on the final day.  The whole thing.  THUD!  So, there is hope...

Well, I guess there has been NOW!  THUD!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: redswarm81 on November 15, 2008, 06:31:33 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 15, 2008, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2008, 08:28:49 AM
....While there has never been a monumental "C" collapse the likes of which you probably need to get an invite, it has happened in "B".  Several years ago, the entire "B" pool collapsed on the final day.  The whole thing.  THUD!  So, there is hope...

Well, I guess there has been NOW!  THUD!

Here's something to look forward to, though:  Next year, you'll again have the opportunity to explain ad infinitum that a 10-0 team with a decent OWP/OOWP and multiple wins v. RROs cannot justifiably be replaced as a No. 1 seed by an out-of-region team--at least not under the NCAA Selection and seeding criteria.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 15, 2008, 07:41:48 PM
All races in one place:

D3 Races (http://www.wjpa.com/allinone08.pdf)

Includes Pool B teams in the hunt.
Includes Pool C 1-loss & 2-loss teams in the hunt.
Includes all 23 AQ races.

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: coco on November 15, 2008, 08:47:51 PM
Nicely laid out, Bob Gregg.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: smedindy on November 15, 2008, 09:14:58 PM
In the regular season, it's death, taxes and Mt. Union. Except for that one year...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: The Forgotten Man on November 15, 2008, 09:22:48 PM
Thanks Bob.

Just for some additional information, LaGrange (now SLIAC Champs) are 8-0 for DIII purposes.

Their loss was to an NAIA school (Shorter) and one win was to a provisional member (Birmingham Southern).

P.S. My hat's off to Huntingdon -- they gave our boys a good game.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: old ends on November 15, 2008, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 15, 2008, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2008, 08:28:49 AM
....While there has never been a monumental "C" collapse the likes of which you probably need to get an invite, it has happened in "B".  Several years ago, the entire "B" pool collapsed on the final day.  The whole thing.  THUD!  So, there is hope...

Well, I guess there has been NOW!  THUD!

Here I thought it was the storms that hit our area.... Just when you thought Ralph had it all figured out.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 16, 2008, 03:22:44 PM
Brackets:

http://www.d3boards.com/playoffs/footballbracket2008.pdf
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Frank Rossi on November 16, 2008, 03:36:08 PM
D3Football.com's Selection Show Special is broadcasting:

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2008/01/14/1571/post-selection-selection-show.html

or directly into Windows Media Player:

http://win.1.c2.audiovideoweb.com/1c2winlive6881
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2008, 12:41:10 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 15, 2008, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 13, 2008, 08:28:49 AM
....While there has never been a monumental "C" collapse the likes of which you probably need to get an invite, it has happened in "B".  Several years ago, the entire "B" pool collapsed on the final day.  The whole thing.  THUD!  So, there is hope...

Well, I guess there has been NOW!  THUD!

Pretty good call. +1 k

2003 was the other year. W&J Coach Mike Sirianni mentions on the show being on the other side of where he was this year, when his team lost in Week 11 and got caught up in the out-of-the-playoffs avalanche. This year, they were one of the few teams that handled business in Week 11.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2008, 12:42:41 AM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 14, 2008, 09:05:38 PM
You don't have to believe me, you can ask Bob Gregg on this one as well:  The Selection Committee MAY NOT consider any polls in making its selection and seeding.

I can't tell you how glad I am for that to be the case. Not that we don't put the work in as far as seeing teams and breaking down the numbers ... but I can live without that kind of pressure on my top 25 vote.  ;)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2008, 01:34:37 AM
Quote from: Upstate on November 14, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
Its mixed over in the East, a couple of us out there dont mind the top 4 teams getting brackets while some think since its "our" region "our" teams should be make the bracket up...

I still think MUC is going to be the #1 seed in the East regardless of the Cortaca Jug game...

This is the only post where I've clearly seen stated what the beef is.

And I think that if an East Region team had properly handled business, it would have been rewarded, regardless of whether or not it was clearly articulated in the in the HuddLLe interview or not.

I pretty consistently maintained all along that Cortland State at 10-0 is No. 1 seed material.

I don't think the committee moves teams in unnecessarily. There is no precedent for that, nor is there much reason to believe it would have been necessary if Cortland had beaten Ithaca.

In any case ... time to let this one go.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:38:29 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 17, 2008, 01:34:37 AM
Quote from: Upstate on November 14, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
Its mixed over in the East, a couple of us out there dont mind the top 4 teams getting brackets while some think since its "our" region "our" teams should be make the bracket up...

I still think MUC is going to be the #1 seed in the East regardless of the Cortaca Jug game...

This is the only post where I've clearly seen stated what the beef is.

And I think that if an East Region team had properly handled business, it would have been rewarded, regardless of whether or not it was clearly articulated in the in the HuddLLe interview or not.

I pretty consistently maintained all along that Cortland State at 10-0 is No. 1 seed material.

I don't think the committee moves teams in unnecessarily. There is no precedent for that, nor is there much reason to believe it would have been necessary if Cortland had beaten Ithaca.

In any case ... time to let this one go.

I concur!  No reason to have a one loss #1 seed just to keep a "true" east region.  I think it would have been quite unfair to put North Central and MUC in the same bracket.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: K-Mack on November 17, 2008, 01:48:08 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:38:29 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on November 17, 2008, 01:34:37 AM
Quote from: Upstate on November 14, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
Its mixed over in the East, a couple of us out there dont mind the top 4 teams getting brackets while some think since its "our" region "our" teams should be make the bracket up...

I still think MUC is going to be the #1 seed in the East regardless of the Cortaca Jug game...

This is the only post where I've clearly seen stated what the beef is.

And I think that if an East Region team had properly handled business, it would have been rewarded, regardless of whether or not it was clearly articulated in the in the HuddLLe interview or not.

I pretty consistently maintained all along that Cortland State at 10-0 is No. 1 seed material.

I don't think the committee moves teams in unnecessarily. There is no precedent for that, nor is there much reason to believe it would have been necessary if Cortland had beaten Ithaca.

In any case ... time to let this one go.

I concur!  No reason to have a one loss #1 seed just to keep a "true" east region.  I think it would have been quite unfair to put North Central and MUC in the same bracket.

But, but the same token, if there are five No. 1-seed type teams, and NC had to go in as a No. 2 somewhere, they probably would have stayed in the North, rather than being shipped to the West, let's say.

Each situation is different since there are so many variables, and to be honest, probably several acceptable brackets.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:54:56 AM
This all being said, is there any team in any bracket that can beat Mount Union this season?  It doesn't appear that Whitewater is going to be that team this year...
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2008, 02:00:29 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:54:56 AM
This all being said, is there any team in any bracket that can beat Mount Union this season?  It doesn't appear that Whitewater is going to be that team this year...

That CAN beat MUC this year?  If the stars align, yes - I'd say there are 8 or 9 that could do it.

That WILL beat MUC this year?  Probably not.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 02:01:27 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2008, 02:00:29 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:54:56 AM
This all being said, is there any team in any bracket that can beat Mount Union this season?  It doesn't appear that Whitewater is going to be that team this year...

That CAN beat MUC this year?  If the stars align, yes - I'd say there are 8 or 9 that could do it.

That WILL beat MUC this year?  Probably not.

Yeah I meant those that have a legitimate chance.  I'm not sure if it's 8 or 9 though.  Please list.   :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 02:08:47 AM
...And I ask not to disagree with you but to obtain a more clear picture of the National Stage..
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2008, 02:23:11 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 02:01:27 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2008, 02:00:29 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:54:56 AM
This all being said, is there any team in any bracket that can beat Mount Union this season?  It doesn't appear that Whitewater is going to be that team this year...

That CAN beat MUC this year?  If the stars align, yes - I'd say there are 8 or 9 that could do it.

That WILL beat MUC this year?  Probably not.

Yeah I meant those that have a legitimate chance.  I'm not sure if it's 8 or 9 though.  Please list.   :)

Fool that I am, I'll actually attempt this! ;D 

(Having seen none of these teams in person, or for that matter MUC, I just don't really know what their A+ game is compared to MUC having, say, a C- day. :P)

In the MUC region, I can't really conceive of anyone seriously giving them trouble, with the possible exception of Ithaca (but I doubt it).

In the North I see three teams that might have the up-side to do it: both CCIW teams (NCC and Wheaton) and (despite the pasting by DePauw) Wabash.  I doubt any will actually pull it off (which is why we were so joyous that MUC went 'East' ;)), but on a good day when MUC had a bad day, I could imagine it.

In the South, I know even less about the potentialities of the teams, but I can't totally rule out Millsaps or either of the Texas teams (after all, UMHB DID do it).

In the West, there IS still UWW, and (being on the left coast island, one never really knows how good, or overrated, they are) both Willamette and Occidental may or may not be threats.  And NEVER completely dismiss the chances of a Gagliardi-coached team.

While I'll predict that Mount wins it all again, there's eleven that I think have at least a slight chance. :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 02:27:39 AM
Thanks for your attempt!  It's enlightening at least to me. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: HScoach on November 17, 2008, 08:59:48 AM
Quote from: pg04 on November 17, 2008, 01:54:56 AM
This all being said, is there any team in any bracket that can beat Mount Union this season?  It doesn't appear that Whitewater is going to be that team this year...

Find a team that has a big, strong front 4 on defense and an offense that can consistenly run the ball with power.  That team, if one exists, has a very good chance of beating MUC.

The Raider defense is perfectly suited to dominate against spread-type offenses.   Attacking, diverse and very fast (but small).   A power running game will give them fits.


And don't discredit Whitewater making a run at again.  I would expect them to over power the rest of the West Region at the line of scrimmage. 

My way too early predictions on the Final Four:

North Central at Mount Union

Whitewater at Millsaps/Mary Hardin Baylor (depends on RB health for MHB)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: The Forgotten Man on November 17, 2008, 05:46:36 PM
I am visual kind of guy, so I like to see how things look.

Following is a link to a google map I just created showing the location of all the playoff teams by region.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=109667184306561314872.00045be984ce706684c03

Given that one of the objectives of DIII is to contain costs, much of what the selection commitee did with regard to pairings makes sense. You don't have to like it, but if the cost containment is a heavily weighted decision criteria you can at least understand why they made the pairings they did.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: frank_ezelle on November 17, 2008, 08:30:59 PM
Forgotten Man, I logged on just so I could give you a karma point for that map.  That is a real eye opener to me, and now I better understand the #1 and #2 pairing in the West.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 08:46:29 PM
Quote from: frank_ezelle on November 17, 2008, 08:30:59 PM
Forgotten Man, I logged on just so I could give you a karma point for that map.  That is a real eye opener to me, and now I better understand the #1 and #2 pairing in the West.

Did you notice that there are 6, only 6, seeds west of the Mississippi River?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: wesleydad on November 17, 2008, 09:11:04 PM
forgotten man, excellent map for those of us who like to see where everyone is.  hard to argue the west coast situation or the texas one if cost is the main driver of the decision.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: ADL70 on November 17, 2008, 10:36:58 PM
Sad that the NCAA can't use some of the DI clout to get an "Official Airline of the NCAA" to reduce flight costs.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2008, 11:22:16 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 08:46:29 PM
Quote from: frank_ezelle on November 17, 2008, 08:30:59 PM
Forgotten Man, I logged on just so I could give you a karma point for that map.  That is a real eye opener to me, and now I better understand the #1 and #2 pairing in the West.

Did you notice that there are 6, only 6, seeds west of the Mississippi River?

But how many D3 schools overall are west of the Mississippi? 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 11:28:32 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2008, 11:22:16 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 08:46:29 PM
Quote from: frank_ezelle on November 17, 2008, 08:30:59 PM
Forgotten Man, I logged on just so I could give you a karma point for that map.  That is a real eye opener to me, and now I better understand the #1 and #2 pairing in the West.

Did you notice that there are 6, only 6, seeds west of the Mississippi River?

But how many D3 schools overall are west of the Mississippi? 
Let's assume all of Minnesota is west of the Mississippi...

In football, 9 in the MIAC, 9 in the IIAC, 5 in the UMAC, 1 in the SLIAC, 3 in the SCAC, 8 in the ASC, 9 in the NWC, 7 in the SCIAC plus Chapman and Macalester.

53 by my count.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2008, 11:32:43 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 11:28:32 PM
Let's assume all of Minnesota is west of the Mississippi...

In football, 9 in the MIAC, 9 in the IIAC, 5 in the UMAC, 1 in the SLIAC, 3 in the SCAC, 8 in the ASC, 9 in the NWC, 7 in the SCIAC plus Chapman and Macalester.

53 by my count.
So 53 out of 237 = 22% of the teams
22% of 32 = 7.2 teams
and if Trinity and upheld their end of the bargain there would have been 7 teams from west of the Mississippi - pretty close to where it should be if all things were equal.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: ADL70 on November 17, 2008, 11:48:43 PM
WUStL barely
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 11:50:40 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on November 17, 2008, 11:32:43 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 17, 2008, 11:28:32 PM
Let's assume all of Minnesota is west of the Mississippi...

In football, 9 in the MIAC, 9 in the IIAC, 5 in the UMAC, 1 in the SLIAC, 3 in the SCAC, 8 in the ASC, 9 in the NWC, 7 in the SCIAC plus Chapman and Macalester.

53 by my count.
So 53 out of 237 = 22% of the teams
22% of 32 = 7.2 teams
and if Trinity had upheld their end of the bargain there would have been 7 teams from west of the Mississippi - pretty close to where it should be if all things were equal.

I wasn't going to mention that...still too painful!   ;D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Bob.Gregg on November 17, 2008, 11:57:22 PM
Quote from: cwru70 on November 17, 2008, 11:48:43 PM
WUStL barely

WUStL either IS, or ISN'T, west of the Mississippi, cwru70.

It's not like the campus is on a bridge over, or on a barge on, the river!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2008, 01:16:09 AM
But perhaps rather than assuming all of Minnesota is west of the Mississippi, a map could be consulted? ;)  Not sure of all the MIAC (or other d3 schools) locations, but I know Hamline, Macalester, and St. Thomas, at least, are all east of the Mississippi. 
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2008, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: cwru70 on November 17, 2008, 11:48:43 PM
WUStL barely
Thanks!  54 out of 237 = 22.9% or 7.23 teams in a 32 team field.

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2008, 01:16:09 AM
But perhaps rather than assuming all of Minnesota is west of the Mississippi, a map could be consulted? ;)  Not sure of all the MIAC (or other d3 schools) locations, but I know Hamline, Macalester, and St. Thomas, at least, are all east of the Mississippi. 

:D  :D  :D

And for that matter, St Scholastica in Duluth and Northwestern MN in St Paul are east, too.

49 out of 237 = 20.6% or 6.59 teams in a 32-team field.   :)

Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: ADL70 on November 18, 2008, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: Bob.Gregg on November 17, 2008, 11:57:22 PM
Quote from: cwru70 on November 17, 2008, 11:48:43 PM
WUStL barely

WUStL either IS, or ISN'T, west of the Mississippi, cwru70.

It's not like the campus is on a bridge over, or on a barge on, the river!

Or on an island.  Or have a campus in East St. Louis, IL and be on both sides.

"barely" was superfluous.  lah-dee-dah  ;D

Isn't St Scholastica provisional, should they count?  ::)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 18, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Scholastica is not provisional. They're a full Division III member school and have been for some time now.

I got an email from a Cal Lutheran fan who blamed me for Cal Lu not getting in. (As if I make those decisions.)

"... Obviously you are an East Coast Catholic boy who has never been west of the Mississippi."

That and a bunch of other nonsense.

My response was to tell him I live west of the Mississippi. :)
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: union89 on November 18, 2008, 11:25:33 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 18, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Scholastica is not provisional. They're a full Division III member school and have been for some time now.

I got an email from a Cal Lutheran fan who blamed me for Cal Lu not getting in. (As if I make those decisions.)

"... Obviously you are an East Coast Catholic boy who has never been west of the Mississippi."

That and a bunch of other nonsense.

My response was to tell him I live west of the Mississippi. :)

So is that why Montclair St. didn't get a bid...because you live west of the Mississippi?  So you and your geography are to blame..... :D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: KitchenSink on November 18, 2008, 01:05:07 PM
Now I know why Maranatha Baptist didn't get in - It was Darth Coleman!!
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Sabretooth Tiger on November 18, 2008, 05:03:57 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 18, 2008, 10:58:18 AM
Scholastica is not provisional. They're a full Division III member school and have been for some time now.

I got an email from a Cal Lutheran fan who blamed me for Cal Lu not getting in. (As if I make those decisions.)

"... Obviously you are an East Coast Catholic boy who has never been west of the Mississippi."

That and a bunch of other nonsense.

My response was to tell him I live west of the Mississippi. :)

That would not have been any of our regular SCIAC/Cal Lu posters I hope?
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 18, 2008, 05:48:57 PM
No, doesn't seem like it.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: hickory_cornhusker on November 18, 2008, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2008, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: cwru70 on November 17, 2008, 11:48:43 PM
WUStL barely
Thanks!  54 out of 237 = 22.9% or 7.23 teams in a 32 team field.

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2008, 01:16:09 AM
But perhaps rather than assuming all of Minnesota is west of the Mississippi, a map could be consulted? ;)  Not sure of all the MIAC (or other d3 schools) locations, but I know Hamline, Macalester, and St. Thomas, at least, are all east of the Mississippi. 

:D  :D  :D

And for that matter, St Scholastica in Duluth and Northwestern MN in St Paul are east, too.

49 out of 237 = 20.6% or 6.59 teams in a 32-team field.   :)



Grinnell from the MWC is west of the Mississippi in Iowa So it would be 50 of 237 teams = 21.1% or 6.75 teams in the playoffs.
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2008, 11:08:52 PM
IF we've finally gotten it pinned down at 50/237 x 32 = 6.75,  the west of the Mississippi contingent DID indeed get 'screwed'!  But have you got any left out schools that could represent well with .75 of a team? ;D
Title: Re: Potential Playoff Selections / Seedings
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 18, 2008, 11:13:34 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2008, 11:08:52 PM
IF we've finally gotten it pinned down at 50/237 x 32 = 6.75,  the west of the Mississippi contingent DID indeed get 'screwed'!  But have you got any left out schools that could represent well with .75 of a team? ;D
Respectfully, the Handbook is quite explicit in truncating the decimals.

I am sure that "6.75" would be truncated to 6 bids.  After all, geographic proximity is maintained by the truncation.   :-\

::)