East Region Playoff Discussion

Started by pg04, November 10, 2006, 11:00:19 PM

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PBR...

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2010, 09:48:19 PM
PBR,

A bit over the top, are we?! ;D

I said I doubted a realistic title contender will ever be left out BECAUSE it is a 32-team tourney, so, no, I'm not advocating returning to 16 teams. :P

And I already provided an example of a team that almost got left out, yet made the semi-finals.

But I'd sure like to hear a list of the 'plenty of examples' of teams who didn't make the tourney who had any realistic chance at the Stagg. ;)

[The only one I can think of who MIGHT have had a chance (IF everyone healed in time) was NCC last year.  A season opening loss to ONU, combined with a loss to my IWU team when decimated with injuries (even I think they would have won by 3 TDs if healthy) cost them a bid.  But UWW was brought 'north' last year, so they still would have had to win in Whitewater to reach the 3rd or 4th round.]

every team has a chance...in fact they all have the same chance. didn't think the math would be that difficult for you... :P   problem is by advocating teams to play all cupcakes on their schedules within a few years you will have a plethora of teams at 9-1 and 10-0. Selection committee will have no idea who is for real and have to make an educated guess (even more than they do currently) you will have numerous teams that are deserving of an appearance being left out because of the way the selection committee fills its brackets...everyone loses...

pg04

#2986
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 08:22:00 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2010, 09:48:19 PM
PBR,

A bit over the top, are we?! ;D

I said I doubted a realistic title contender will ever be left out BECAUSE it is a 32-team tourney, so, no, I'm not advocating returning to 16 teams. :P

And I already provided an example of a team that almost got left out, yet made the semi-finals.

But I'd sure like to hear a list of the 'plenty of examples' of teams who didn't make the tourney who had any realistic chance at the Stagg. ;)

[The only one I can think of who MIGHT have had a chance (IF everyone healed in time) was NCC last year.  A season opening loss to ONU, combined with a loss to my IWU team when decimated with injuries (even I think they would have won by 3 TDs if healthy) cost them a bid.  But UWW was brought 'north' last year, so they still would have had to win in Whitewater to reach the 3rd or 4th round.]

every team has a chance...in fact they all have the same chance. didn't think the math would be that difficult for you... :P   problem is by advocating teams to play all cupcakes on their schedules within a few years you will have a plethora of teams at 9-1 and 10-0. Selection committee will have no idea who is for real and have to make an educated guess (even more than they do currently) you will have numerous teams that are deserving of an appearance being left out because of the way the selection committee fills its brackets...everyone loses...

Sorry, but chance doesn't work in Sports.  This isn't rolling a die.  Not all sides are equal.  Not everyone has the equal "Chance to win."  St. Lawrence's chance to win is much smaller than Mount Union's

maxpower

PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

PBR...

Quote from: pg04 on November 12, 2010, 09:56:36 AM
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 08:22:00 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 10, 2010, 09:48:19 PM
PBR,

A bit over the top, are we?! ;D

I said I doubted a realistic title contender will ever be left out BECAUSE it is a 32-team tourney, so, no, I'm not advocating returning to 16 teams. :P

And I already provided an example of a team that almost got left out, yet made the semi-finals.

But I'd sure like to hear a list of the 'plenty of examples' of teams who didn't make the tourney who had any realistic chance at the Stagg. ;)

[The only one I can think of who MIGHT have had a chance (IF everyone healed in time) was NCC last year.  A season opening loss to ONU, combined with a loss to my IWU team when decimated with injuries (even I think they would have won by 3 TDs if healthy) cost them a bid.  But UWW was brought 'north' last year, so they still would have had to win in Whitewater to reach the 3rd or 4th round.]

every team has a chance...in fact they all have the same chance. didn't think the math would be that difficult for you... :P   problem is by advocating teams to play all cupcakes on their schedules within a few years you will have a plethora of teams at 9-1 and 10-0. Selection committee will have no idea who is for real and have to make an educated guess (even more than they do currently) you will have numerous teams that are deserving of an appearance being left out because of the way the selection committee fills its brackets...everyone loses...

Sorry, but chance doesn't work in Sports.  This isn't rolling a die.  Not all sides are equal.  Not everyone has the equal "Chance to win."  St. Lawrence's chance to win is much smaller than Mount Union's

thanks for agreeing...correct they all have a chance to win

PBR...

#2989
Quote from: maxpower on November 12, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

would really like them to reward  teams for playing tough schedules. very similiar to how the ncaa men's hoops teams are selected. I want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa. It makes their job significantly easier by seeing what teams are pretenders and what are contenders. It also helps a school trying to make a name for itself by pushing a ranked team to the brink of a loss or actually beating them...i.e. fresno st. in college football...their motto is anywhere/anytime/anyplace. they will play anyone on the road, they are not afraid of scheduling good teams. By doing this you have a much better idea and examples of what teams did against good competition, and it takes a lot of the "what if" scenarios out of play. It also makes for great games during the season, that actually mean something. The fans as well as the ncaa and schools win. Who wouldn't like to see a dvc vs. ithaca during the season. Or wesley vs. hobart, union vs. tomas more or rpi vs. rowan...makes for interesting matchups you wouldn't normally see. granted travel/cost is a concern but to me you can easily set up 1 if not 2 good ooc games each season. Forget the creampuffs if you have 15-20 teams all at 10-0/9-1 trying to playoff spots and they all have played nobodies what good is that and it lends itself to guessing what team should get in w/ nothing done on merit. Plus factor in the blowouts that will occur regularly in the first rounds, everyone saying what a joke it is that team A got the playoff spot and team B didn't. How the tournament to decide a national champion isn't a real tournament to find the best team. Does everyone want to see 52-0 blowouts for ooc games? Personally I want to see good games during the season that mean something. I.E. DVC taking on salisbury/wesley in the ooc part of the season. This year DVC played washington&jeff/wesley.  What good is it if DVC plays tufts and amherst (couldn't resist sorry) and wins those games by a combined 100-0 score?

alright need a cold frosty beverage now...

lewdogg11

PBR - Who is it that you are pissing and moaning about?

Bombers798891

Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: maxpower on November 12, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

would really like them to reward  teams for playing tough schedules. very similiar to how the ncaa men's hoops teams are selected. I want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa

Here's the problems with that:

1) Not all conferences have the freedom to schedule OOC games. It's harder for a school with eight or nine conference games to schedule tougher opponents because they're at the mercy of their conference. And some teams play the same OOC games each year. IC is always going to play Cortland, and has played Springfield (I think) every year, even when they were D-II or in some other conference. I doubt Fisher would want to give up Rochester

2) It's still a regional sport, and with economic times what they are, you can't expect a D-III school to adopt an "anyone, anytime, any place" attitude. It's not like Ithaca cut Huntington a check for coming to Butterfield in 2006. And considering the average attendance for a D-III game was under 1,900 according to the NCAA in 2009, the sport's not exactly making schools money. Fresno State would make a lot of money from attendance in big games they got at home, and probably got straight cash for going to certain places (like USC). Is it economically viable to do that? From a institution/department wide cost-benefit standpoint, is it worth it?

Even if you keep it in region, that still benefits teams in tougher regions. Del Valley and Wesley can only play so many teams.

Here's what you get when you add up 10- or 9-game schedules, conference games, traditional OOC rivalries and the regional component: Not many options for great OOC challenges. Sure, maybe the Wick could schedule Wesley and it was great when Fisher took on MUC. But I don't think there are a lot of ways for teams to, in a widespread manner, do that.


dlippiel

QuoteI want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa.

dlip is with you 100% here pbr. To dlip this is a no-brainer. If dlip was a coach he would do everything in his power to schedule the best teams possible. dlip would not be happy and/or satisfied being 10-0, 9-1, 8-2 if he knew he played weak teams, especially if his team was in a weak conference. He would know that he did not do everything possible to test his team and provide them with the opportunity to be the best they could be.

Listen, dlip feels any team that is 10-0, 9-1, 8-2 has accomplished a great deal and should hold their heads up high. Yet, at the same time, records like this don't or shouldn't put you in a class with teams playing on a much higher level and should not give these teams legs up in the post-season. If one wants to be in the tourney go earn it.

Jonny Utah

#2993
And we can also look to RPI.  Has their weak non-conference schedule given them playoff spots they may not have deserved over the past 15 years?  I don't think so.

I think in theory PBR is right.  It could happen where a team may be left out because of their scheduling.  But pool A bids in general are more of a problem than that though I would think.

And we can't really compare basketball to football since there are 64 teams who make it.  If the NCAA had to pick 32 teams for the tourney, don't you think they would have to face some serious problems and teams might actually change their OCC because of where a computer might rank them?

PBR...

Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 12, 2010, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: maxpower on November 12, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

would really like them to reward  teams for playing tough schedules. very similiar to how the ncaa men's hoops teams are selected. I want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa

Here's the problems with that:

1) Not all conferences have the freedom to schedule OOC games. It's harder for a school with eight or nine conference games to schedule tougher opponents because they're at the mercy of their conference. And some teams play the same OOC games each year. IC is always going to play Cortland, and has played Springfield (I think) every year, even when they were D-II or in some other conference. I doubt Fisher would want to give up Rochester

2) It's still a regional sport, and with economic times what they are, you can't expect a D-III school to adopt an "anyone, anytime, any place" attitude. It's not like Ithaca cut Huntington a check for coming to Butterfield in 2006. And considering the average attendance for a D-III game was under 1,900 according to the NCAA in 2009, the sport's not exactly making schools money. Fresno State would make a lot of money from attendance in big games they got at home, and probably got straight cash for going to certain places (like USC). Is it economically viable to do that? From a institution/department wide cost-benefit standpoint, is it worth it?

Even if you keep it in region, that still benefits teams in tougher regions. Del Valley and Wesley can only play so many teams.

Here's what you get when you add up 10- or 9-game schedules, conference games, traditional OOC rivalries and the regional component: Not many options for great OOC challenges. Sure, maybe the Wick could schedule Wesley and it was great when Fisher took on MUC. But I don't think there are a lot of ways for teams to, in a widespread manner, do that.



times change...used to have a HUGE turkey day cross town rivalry w/ a high school. regularly drew 15K to the game....everyone thought that game being played on thanksgiving day morning would go on forever like it had previously...well the state of pa. instituted state playoffs...guess what, game got moved to the regular season, and state playoffs took over. My point being is don't count on ithaca/cortland or other rivalries forever. New coaches come in/administrations etc....change the focus and some may decide that the game might not be worth playing....would like to play different teams/change focus to ncaa playoffs and not play a tough team at the end of the season/etc...

PBR...

Quote from: No Longer Negative LD11 on November 12, 2010, 11:54:19 AM
PBR - Who is it that you are pissing and moaning about?

no one...just wasting time until the lamp is lit...

Bombers798891

Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 01:00:51 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 12, 2010, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: maxpower on November 12, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

would really like them to reward  teams for playing tough schedules. very similiar to how the ncaa men's hoops teams are selected. I want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa

Here's the problems with that:

1) Not all conferences have the freedom to schedule OOC games. It's harder for a school with eight or nine conference games to schedule tougher opponents because they're at the mercy of their conference. And some teams play the same OOC games each year. IC is always going to play Cortland, and has played Springfield (I think) every year, even when they were D-II or in some other conference. I doubt Fisher would want to give up Rochester

2) It's still a regional sport, and with economic times what they are, you can't expect a D-III school to adopt an "anyone, anytime, any place" attitude. It's not like Ithaca cut Huntington a check for coming to Butterfield in 2006. And considering the average attendance for a D-III game was under 1,900 according to the NCAA in 2009, the sport's not exactly making schools money. Fresno State would make a lot of money from attendance in big games they got at home, and probably got straight cash for going to certain places (like USC). Is it economically viable to do that? From a institution/department wide cost-benefit standpoint, is it worth it?

Even if you keep it in region, that still benefits teams in tougher regions. Del Valley and Wesley can only play so many teams.

Here's what you get when you add up 10- or 9-game schedules, conference games, traditional OOC rivalries and the regional component: Not many options for great OOC challenges. Sure, maybe the Wick could schedule Wesley and it was great when Fisher took on MUC. But I don't think there are a lot of ways for teams to, in a widespread manner, do that.



times change...used to have a HUGE turkey day cross town rivalry w/ a high school. regularly drew 15K to the game....everyone thought that game being played on thanksgiving day morning would go on forever like it had previously...well the state of pa. instituted state playoffs...guess what, game got moved to the regular season, and state playoffs took over. My point being is don't count on ithaca/cortland or other rivalries forever. New coaches come in/administrations etc....change the focus and some may decide that the game might not be worth playing....would like to play different teams/change focus to ncaa playoffs and not play a tough team at the end of the season/etc...

That still doesn't address the conference schedules and the fact that the sport is largely regional.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 01:00:51 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 12, 2010, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: maxpower on November 12, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

would really like them to reward  teams for playing tough schedules. very similiar to how the ncaa men's hoops teams are selected. I want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa

Here's the problems with that:

1) Not all conferences have the freedom to schedule OOC games. It's harder for a school with eight or nine conference games to schedule tougher opponents because they're at the mercy of their conference. And some teams play the same OOC games each year. IC is always going to play Cortland, and has played Springfield (I think) every year, even when they were D-II or in some other conference. I doubt Fisher would want to give up Rochester

2) It's still a regional sport, and with economic times what they are, you can't expect a D-III school to adopt an "anyone, anytime, any place" attitude. It's not like Ithaca cut Huntington a check for coming to Butterfield in 2006. And considering the average attendance for a D-III game was under 1,900 according to the NCAA in 2009, the sport's not exactly making schools money. Fresno State would make a lot of money from attendance in big games they got at home, and probably got straight cash for going to certain places (like USC). Is it economically viable to do that? From a institution/department wide cost-benefit standpoint, is it worth it?

Even if you keep it in region, that still benefits teams in tougher regions. Del Valley and Wesley can only play so many teams.

Here's what you get when you add up 10- or 9-game schedules, conference games, traditional OOC rivalries and the regional component: Not many options for great OOC challenges. Sure, maybe the Wick could schedule Wesley and it was great when Fisher took on MUC. But I don't think there are a lot of ways for teams to, in a widespread manner, do that.



times change...used to have a HUGE turkey day cross town rivalry w/ a high school. regularly drew 15K to the game....everyone thought that game being played on thanksgiving day morning would go on forever like it had previously...well the state of pa. instituted state playoffs...guess what, game got moved to the regular season, and state playoffs took over.

They have been talking about this in Massachusetts recently and have changed the format a few times over the last 20 years.  Here is an interesting wiki article on some turkeyday rival games across the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_football#Massachusetts

PBR...

Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 12, 2010, 01:04:23 PM
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 01:00:51 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on November 12, 2010, 12:17:06 PM
Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: maxpower on November 12, 2010, 10:39:13 AM
PBR do you have anything resembling a solution? Should the whole season just be one long single-elimination tournament? Or should everyone have to have the exact same OWP somehow, which would destroy conferences, be impossible to predict, and just generally be ridiculous.

would really like them to reward  teams for playing tough schedules. very similiar to how the ncaa men's hoops teams are selected. I want to see teams play difficult ooc schedules and so should the ncaa

Here's the problems with that:

1) Not all conferences have the freedom to schedule OOC games. It's harder for a school with eight or nine conference games to schedule tougher opponents because they're at the mercy of their conference. And some teams play the same OOC games each year. IC is always going to play Cortland, and has played Springfield (I think) every year, even when they were D-II or in some other conference. I doubt Fisher would want to give up Rochester

2) It's still a regional sport, and with economic times what they are, you can't expect a D-III school to adopt an "anyone, anytime, any place" attitude. It's not like Ithaca cut Huntington a check for coming to Butterfield in 2006. And considering the average attendance for a D-III game was under 1,900 according to the NCAA in 2009, the sport's not exactly making schools money. Fresno State would make a lot of money from attendance in big games they got at home, and probably got straight cash for going to certain places (like USC). Is it economically viable to do that? From a institution/department wide cost-benefit standpoint, is it worth it?

Even if you keep it in region, that still benefits teams in tougher regions. Del Valley and Wesley can only play so many teams.

Here's what you get when you add up 10- or 9-game schedules, conference games, traditional OOC rivalries and the regional component: Not many options for great OOC challenges. Sure, maybe the Wick could schedule Wesley and it was great when Fisher took on MUC. But I don't think there are a lot of ways for teams to, in a widespread manner, do that.



times change...used to have a HUGE turkey day cross town rivalry w/ a high school. regularly drew 15K to the game....everyone thought that game being played on thanksgiving day morning would go on forever like it had previously...well the state of pa. instituted state playoffs...guess what, game got moved to the regular season, and state playoffs took over. My point being is don't count on ithaca/cortland or other rivalries forever. New coaches come in/administrations etc....change the focus and some may decide that the game might not be worth playing....would like to play different teams/change focus to ncaa playoffs and not play a tough team at the end of the season/etc...

That still doesn't address the conference schedules and the fact that the sport is largely regional.

guess u missed reading the part about "economics"....conferences will change as will rivalries....of course teams can't fly across the country to take on linfield or down to texas...but to me there is no reason why ithaca couldn't take on dvc/wesley/rowan/kean/etc/etc/etc/etc. Its not just wesley/dvc....you have other very good teams around like cortland/rowa/ithaca/hobart/montclair/etc....no reason to limit yourself to just a few top teams

lewdogg11

Quote from: PBR... on November 12, 2010, 01:01:16 PM
Quote from: No Longer Negative LD11 on November 12, 2010, 11:54:19 AM
PBR - Who is it that you are pissing and moaning about?

no one...just wasting time until the lamp is lit...

So, you're yelling and screaming about no one?  Let's face it, i'd say at the very least, one of the best 3 teams wins the National Championship every year.